Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th . Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, MARCH 24, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 18

March 24, 1975. The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape fi39 (Afternoon) STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: RH - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. HON. E. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, a short statement on the appoint- ment of commissioners to the Worlanen's Compensation Board, After the report of the O'Neill Royal Commission into the administration of the Worlcrnen's Compensation Board had been received, the government proceeded to make certain changes in the structure, the top management of the Board.

The first step taken was that the employment of the commissioners at that time was terminated and the temporary Board was appointed on the twelfth of August, 1974. The temporary Board consisted of Mr. W.J. May as Chairman. Mr. May was also at that time the Assistant Deputy Minister of Manpower. The commissioners appointed were Mr. Richard Fagan, a long time employee of the Board 1 and Mr. G.B. Malone, the Deputy Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. This temporary Board of cOIIDilissioners continued to administer the affairs until January, 1975, when Mr.

May was confirmed as the permanent Chairman of the Board. I should point out that the temporary Board did a tremendous job in the administration of the agency during a very difficult period of time. After the appointment of Hr. May as permanent Chairman, we proceeded to work out the future structure of the Board and to select candidates for permanent and part-time positions. The structure we are putting together now is somewhat new and it is a trial structure, I suppose. There were some indications that we should go with part-time commissioners only.

However, we have decided against that and the future Board will consist of a permanent Chairman and two permanent commissioners. 1963

March 24, 1975. Tape 639 RH - 2 As well, in order to give representation to labour and management, we are adding two part-time commissioners, one representative of labour and one representative of employers. It is envisioned that the pennanent commissioners with the Chairman will administer the day to day operations, but the full Board will meet as often as necessary to formulate any policies and decide on any major issues. The two permanent commissioners will be Mr. Richard Fagan and Mr. Andrew Rose. Mr. Fagan is a long time employee. Ile started his employment with the Board in 1951 in the accounting division.

Since then he has held various posts and is now director of claims. He was also acting chief administrative officer since August, 1974. Mr. Rose is a native of St. John's who held various jobs in the accounting field from 1943 to 1958. Since 1958 he has held sales and managerial positions with major insurance firms. Mr. Rose has also been Chairman of the Minimum Wage Board since early 1973. The two part-time commissioners will be,representing labour, Hr. William 1/oodford, a business representative of the Iron Workers' Union and representing employers, Mr.

John Murphy, Manager of the Safety Division with the Iron Ore Company of Canada. Both these men are well known in their respective fields and surely will bring a wealth of experience to the Board. All the appointments will become effective April 1, 1975. There is no doubt in my Iii.ind that these people will bring an era of good management and stability to one of the most important agencies of government. We are hoping to propose various amendments to the Worlanen's Compensation Act during this year and one of the first tasks of the Board will be to scrutinize the present legislation and propose changes.

The other major task is to revise the present 1964

,', March 24, 1975. Tape 639 Rll - 3 structure of the agency on the lower levels and then try to improve the morale of the employees which have been at a low point for some considerable time. We wish them well in their endeavour s and assure them of the full co-operation of government. Thank you. UR. SPEA!~R: The honourable Member for Bell Island. ~IR. S. NF.ARY: Mr.

Speaker, the minister in his few remarks when he announced the appointments to the Wor kmen's Com;,ensation Board did not indicate to the House whether or not t_he 1:'linister going to make the O"Meill Royal Commission public or if he has made it public . I have not seen it myself. The minister did not indicate whether he was going to table the report in the House or not because I tl1iak it is very important that t he minister table the report in view of his last remarks there about the morale of the employees . We would like to 196 5

March 24, 1975 Tape No. 640 NM - 1 see it in black and white rather than take the minister's word for it that the morale over there was as bad as the minister says. Now, Si_r, last year I think it was, we welcomed the appointment of Mr. May as Chairmsn of the Workmen's Compensation Board . . I think th:i.s was a very good choice. Mr. May is a man who has had tremendous experience in dealing with people 0n various commissions and boards and so forth and he is a good civil servant. I think it is a good choice.

The minister did not indicate, Sir, either whether the other nominees to the Board or appointments to the Board were recommended by the Newfoundland Board of Trade or by the Newfoundland Federation of Labour. For instance in the case of Mr. Woodford, vbo is a part-time commissioner, the minister did not indicate whether Mr. Woodford was appointed on the recommendation of the Newfoundland Federation of Labour, for instance 1 or not. Now as far as the other appointees, Sir, Mr. Fagan and Mr. Roseare concerned, the minister outlined some of the qualifications of Mr.

Rose and I think probably, Sir, what he said is absolutely correct. But one thing the minister did not mention, Sir, in outlining the qualifications was that Mr. Andrew Rose, Esquire, sought the nomination for the Tory Party in 1971 in the Provincial Election in the district - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible; MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable Member for Bell Island appears to be debating the statement made by the honourable Minister of Manpower. MR. ROBERTS: He would not do that would he? MR.

NEARY: Well, I must apologize to the Chair,but I have to add •nsuccessfully, Your Honour, but the minister, Sir, really in his statement, did not really indicate to the House or convince the House that there was really any difference in the make-up of this board except they have two part-time commissioners now. But the minister did 1966

March 24, 1975 Tape No. 640 NM - 2 not indicate whether there was any real difference and the minister did not indicate in his remarks to the House, whether or not Worlanen's Compensation Board rates were going to be increaserl to enable people on Workmen's Compensation to cope with the high cost of living in this Province. NOTICE OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance. HON. H.R.V. EARLE, Minister of Finance: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions for the granting of interim supply to Her Majesty, also I move the House into Committee of the Whole to consider a resolution in relation to the raising of loans on the credit of the Province and I also give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to move the House into Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions in relation to the granting of supplementary supply to Her Majesty for the financial year ending March 31, 1975. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: I thought the Minister of Fisheries was going to ask a question, Sir. I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Sir, would the minister indicate to the House whether or not he or anybody in his department has received any representation from the people of North Harbour in the District of Placentia West concerning the conditions of the road, three-and-a-half mi.les of road leading into North Harbour 1 which is impass•ble at the moment, and if so would the minister indicate what his department is doing about it? HON, L.

BARRY, Minister of Mines and Energy: Mr, Speaker, if I could assist my honourable colleague in the answering of that - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Mr, Speaker. MR. SPEAnR: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Point of order, Sir, 1967

March 24, 1975 Tape No. 640 NM - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Transportation and Cmnmunications, Sir, the minister responsible for highways, not the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. HON. J. ROUSSEAU, Minister of Transnortation and Conmunications: I was not in the House on P.riday but I kept a close contact with what went on with respect to this department.

I understand that a petition was tabled in the House of Assembly with respect to the three-and-a-half miles of road from North Harbour to the pavement. I have been also talking to my colleague as well to remind me that he had done that, in the event that I had missed it but that would not happen because these normally come down to my desk.

I did have some calls from North Harbour as well, individuals, and I had a meeting this morning with officials of the department and certainly we intend to try and do everything we can to make the road passable• That and other roads across the province are not in a real good shape at the moment and we intend to provide the shale and the hard rock necessary right now during the next two, three weeks, maybe four weeks, We hope it will not be a long period of time in which the roads are soft and there are some problems down there and we are aware of it and we are trying to do what we can to upgrade the roads so that people can pass over without any difficulties.

MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. 1968

March 24, 1975 Tape 641 (Afternoon) PK - 1 MR. NEARY: A supplementary to the minister, Sir, and I can appreciate the minister for not being here this morning, and probably not having the information at his fingertips. But is the minister aware that at the moment nothing can get over that road including graders. They had to tow cars over it for a while, but now the graders cannot even get over it. Would the minister, could he be a little bit more specific, maybe not at this moment, hut sometime this afternoon and tell the House precisely what is going to be done about this situation? MR. SPEAKER: MR.

ROUSSEAU: of the problem. The Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. I just told you, you know, as minister I am aware I kn~w it is as the honourable members says, and as my honourable colleague told me, and as calls I got from the area tell me too. I do not dispute the fact that the road is in bad condition. I issued an order this morning to the officials of the department to see what they could do to make the road more ~assable. I appreciate the problems the people have, I appreciate that they have work commitments over that road and we are doing everything that can be done.

Instructions have been issued and I presume that nobody down the llne is going to say, I am not going to do that. You know, once I issued the instructions I presume something is going to be done, and on that presumption I am willing to let the men in the field handle the road. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: If I could just add, Mr. Speaker, to that. The honourable Member for Bell Island was here on Friday and knew that a petition was presented on Friday, Mr. Speaker.

And this was directed to the Department of Transportation and Communications, but in addition, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that I have been personally in direct contact with the Clarenville Highways Depot which has the responsibility for the North Harbour Road, and I know that Mr. Brinston and the Highways Depot there are doing everything 1969

March 24, 1975 Tape 641 (Afternoon) PK - 2 possible. You have a situation where the vast amount of snow that has been experienced this year has built up around the roads. It is now melting, and the water is running onto the road and it is a question of just how much can be done in the meantime. There can be additional ballast laid there, possibly some work can be done on the ditches along the side of the road. But it is a bad problem, and I think everybody realizes that including the people of North Harbour. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before I recognize another honourable member with a question, I think it is most unusual perhaps that when a question is directed to a minister that after he has answered that question that another honourable minister rises,in essence, in support of it. I think that a question directed to a minister should be answered by that particular minister. I would like to welcome to the galleries four students from the Seventh Day Adventist Academy here in St. John's, in Grade XI, with their teacher Mr. Morgan.

And I certainly 1on behalf of all honourable members,welcome you to the galleries and trust that your visit here is most interesting. The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we do not begrudge the minister trying to get a little mileage, Sir. I have another question for the Minister of Transportation and Conrrnunications. Would the minister indicate to the House what action he or his department is taking on the road situation in Markland where school buses cannot even get over that piece of road over there.

Would the minister indicate if he has had representation from the people in the Whitbourne ·- Markland area, and what he is doing about it? MR. SPEAKER: }1R. ROUSSEAU : The Hon. Minister of TranEportation and Communications. I am sure the honourable member will not mind if I answer that question a little more broadly than the Markland situation. I think we must appreciate this time of the year that we are getting a runoff in various areas, not only in Markland.

For example, this morning or some time today we should have a half load limit I guess on all the roads between the Terra Nova Park and Baie Verte in the 10,n .,__,IV

March 24, 1975 Tape 641 (Afternoon) PK· 3 Grand Falls district, and as well on the East Coast. We have had a problem this winter where we have used a lot of salt• The salt has melted the snow, and the water resulting has stayed on the road, and,of covrse, more snow has come on top of that and we had the same situation. So we have a lot of water on the snow. The rain today, the officials tell me this morning it should help it because it will wash it away. We have almost no frost in the ground. And we are aware of the problem in Markland, and in many other areas. I have had a number of phone calls this morning.

We are going around now with our benkelman sticks across the Trans Canada, and as well in other areas attempting to find out just how bad the roads are, and to institute the half load limits. You know, what else can be said. It is going to be- AN HON. MEMBER: What kind of a stick? MR. ROUSSEAU: Benkelman stick. It is something that tells you the stress and strain on the road, and just how much it can hold up. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROUSSEAU: But it is - well half road limits - what in effect I am saying is when half load limits are imposed, they are not done arbitrarily when you have these pressures at a certain level, and the half load limits are imposed. And at Markland and any other area of the Province we are going to have the same problem. I am going to be answering the same question about two or three times a day probably for the next couple of weeks. All I can say we are doing all we can. We have - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. NEARY: MR. ROUSSEAU: Inaudible. Right.

Oh well, You cannot depend on the members - And rightfully so, but I am just trying to give an overview of the answer right now. We are trying to stay with it. We have to get some shale or some crushed rock or so on to keep these roads passable. The silt which is in abudnance across the province is not satisfactory to keep the roads in good condition. All we can say is that we will stay with it and try to get the roads as passable as soon as possible. 1971

March 24, 1975 Tape no, 642 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Premier, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Education. In view of the announcement made by the Premier during the weekend concerning a College of Mining for the Province, in the area of Green Bay, Sir, would the minister indicate what studies or c011111issions or research have been undertaken to set up such a College of Mining in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Education. HON. G, OTTENHEIMER (Minister of Education): Mr.

Speaker, actually I did not hear the announcement, but for some time there has been a study given with respect to a closed mine in the Springdale district, a mine which was closed there 1and a number of people have been looking into the possibility of putting courses in mining technology, using that facility for courses in mining technology, Thia, no doubt, is what the Premier was referring to. This is still under study, the possibility of using these abandoned or no longer in use mine premises for courses in mining technology. _!IR. F. ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order, MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy.on a point of order. MR. BARRY: This is to avoid problems with , Your Honour, I do not mean to be in conflict with your ruling, Your Honour, but I believe it has been the practice that where a member of government, any minister, can supplement information given by a colleague in response to a question opposite,that this has been the practice.

Now it is a question of whether the honourable members opposite, when they ask a question, want the information or whether they are just doing it, of course, for political - MR. F. ROWE: Look, on a point of order. SOME HON. MFMBERS: (Inaudible). 1972

March 24, 1975 MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: Tape no. 642 Order, please! Mr. Speaker, what I am suggesting - Re is out of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! Page 2 - mw MR. BARRY: What I am submitting, Mr. Speaker, is that I have additional information that I can supply on this point, but I hesitate to do so because of Your Honour's ruling, but I will commence to give it, Mr. Speaker. I just thought I should have forewarned vou that I was about to do this. And the additional information, Mr. Speaker - MB.. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order, is the honourable - Order, please!

The Chair has recognized the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy on a point of order. MR. F. ROWE: Okay, state your point of order. MR. BARRY: The point of order, Mr. Speaker, was that I am about to coimnence giving additional supplementary information, additional to that given by my colleague, the Minister of Education, and I did not want to do this, Mr. Speaker, ignoring - I do not think it was really a ruling of Your Honour, but it was an indication by Your Honour so that if Your Honour considers it to be unacceptable, I would refrain from doing it.

However, I should point out that it has been the practice in this House in the past. I have additional information which I am sure the honourable members opposite would find interesting. MR.. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition wishes to speak to that point of order. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The rules of the House provide that questions may be addressed to ministers and then a minister may or may not answer as he chooses. The rules make no reference at all, Sir, to a team of ministers getting up.

The very most that practice has permitted around here in this Rouse, Sir, is if a question is addressed to a minister who is not responsible for a particular item, Then he says, well, my colleague, you know, is in a better position to answer it than I am. I would suggest 1973

March 24, 1975 Tape no, 642 Page 3 - mw Sir, it would destroy completely the whole purpose of the question period if one question 1 addressed to a minister who is responsible for an activity,is then to lead to a barrage of re•t)Ollses, The inevitable result of that, Sir, would be that the Minister of Fisheries, who knows everything about everything, would have to answer every question, and I think it would be most out of order, Sir, I think a question addressed to a minister, the minister may or may not answer it as he wishes, but it would be most improper if the gentleman from Placentia West were, being a junior know-it-all expert, were to be allowed to answer every question except those addressed to him, MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: Earlier the Chair, as the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy said, really did not make a ruling but said that he felt that it was a bit unusual for him to follow this procedure. I am sure if honourable members to my right require information from the Minister of Mines and Energy with regard to the question just asked, they can do in the form of a supplementary question. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear: Hear: MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

ROBERTS: May I address a supplementary question to the Minister of Education to ask him whether the contemplated School of Mining in Green Bay is to be regional or merely for this Province? 1974

March 24, 1975. Tape 643 (Afternoon) AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Regional within a Newfoundland sense or regional in an Atlantic sense? MR. ROBERTS: No, regional in a larger sense. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Right, actually it would be premature to answer that at all because at the present time what is being done is a study to see whether the concept is, in fact, a feasible one, of having instruction in mining technology in that area. No decision has been made one way or the other. It is being assessed.

So, to give further information on that, you know, we will presuppose that a decision has been made,which it has not. RH - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary. I appreciate the fact the decision is being contemplated and the matter is being studied. Is contemplation being given to this concept of sort of an Eastern Canada Region or is it going to be a school to serve the people of Newfoundland and Labrador? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, until the study has been completed, then it would not be realistic to contemplate what area it would serve because even the feasibility of the whole concept is now being studied. So, until that is done, it would not be 1 you know, could not say what area, whether it would be outside the Province as well as inside. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, let me raise a further supplementary by asking the minister is he aware that the Premier has said that it may very well be a regional college or has the minister not been consulted at all on the announcement? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it may well be regional, yes. It may be provincial. It may be interprovincial. It may be Eastern Canada. It may be for the East Coast of Newfoundland. It may be for the West Coast. It may be any number of things, obviously, but until the study has been completed to determine the feasibility of giving mining technology courses in the area, no one can say with any certainty what specific area it will cover. 1975

March 24, 1975. Tape 643 RH - 2 MR. SPEAY-ER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. 11R. ROWE: To what study is the minister referring, Mr. Speaker, in light of the fact that the announcement has already been made that a mining college is to be built in the area and who is doing the study and has it been completed? Is it in the process of being completed or when is it due to be completed and who is doing it? HR. OTTENHEIMER: I think the question is probably out of order in the sense that it is arglll'lentative.

I have already answered the question, that a study is being made and is being made by the Department of Education and vocational and technical education people. It also involves some people from the Department of Mines and Energy. }!R. ROWE: A supplementary: Mr. Speaker, could the minister indicate what liaison there has been between the Department of Geology at the Univer .sity and the School of Engineering at the University and the Canada Manpower Training Centre with respect to this new mining college, the first underground college in the world, I believe? MR.

OTTENHEIMER: The regular lines of liaison that always - l--!R. SPEAKER: ~!R. ROWE: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. Mr. Speaker, I give up in utter despair. Would the act _ing 'Minister of Public Works, Mr. Speaker, confirm or deny a report that the ban is still in effect on the advertising in "The Daily News" and this has been confirmed by certain civil servants and by the acting Minister for Public Works? Would he confirm or deny that the ban has not been lifted? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Public Works and Services (acting). MR.

ROUSSEAU: Yesterday or Thursday, I guess it was, I had a call and all I said to the gentleman in question- it was not 1976

March 24, 1975. Tape 643 a news reporter) it was sOl!lebody in charge of circulation or advertising, I presume - and all I said was I would have to check the matter out. I am the acting minister. I do not know what the details are. So all I said was I was going to check it out, in reply to a question I had posed to me by somebody in the advertising field. It was not a news story and I was rather surprised this morning that that was there, which I undertook to check, but in respect to any statement on that, the Premier has indicated he would like to say some- RH - 3 thing.

He is at a meeting now and I presume if the question is posed --I suppose tomorrow 1 he will have a statement on it tomorrow. That is the situation. MR; ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary again in the Premier's absense. Would the minister tell us whether it is proposed to end the ban that is now in effect? MR. ROUSSEAU: The Premier would want to make the statement on anything concerned with that and he has asked for it to be deferred until tomorrow until he is here. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot make the minister answer a question.

He has the right not to answer, but really, I mean he is neither answering nor not answering - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary question, if I might - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is the question period.The honourable gentlemen are entitled to ask questions, not to make statements or comments which the honourable Leader of the Opposition is doing now,and no minister has to answer the question.

If the honourable the Premier is going to deal with that matter, then it will be dealt with tomorrow when the Premier - MR. ROBERTS~ May I ask a supplementary question, t~r. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The honouable the Leader of the Opposition may ask a supplementary question. 1977

l1arch 24, 1975. Tape 643 RB - 4 MR. ROBERTS: Thanlc you, Sir. · May I ask the minister whether he can indicate whether any significant amount of government advertising at present is being placed in "The Daily News"? He is the acting minister of the department and thus it is appropriate - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 1978

March 24, 1975 MR. ROBERTS : Tape 644 (Afternoon) Thus it is aprropriate, Sir, that he tell us whether or not any government advertising, any significant amount of government advertising is now being placed in '..'The Daily News"? MR. ROUSSEAU: I see some advertising there, Whether that is significant or not I do not know. Maybe we differ on the term ''significant:' But as I say, and this is my position, that the Premier would like to reply to that question, He will do so tomorrow. And I will wait for the Premier's response tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for St. Barbe North. MR.

ROBERTS: A further - AN HON. MEMBER: Go ahead, Sir. PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Well a further supplementary if I might, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister tell us whether there has been any change in the past few days in the government's practice with respect to advertising in "The Daily News"? HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, this being the appropriate time I will take note under the late show routine. We will have a look at it on Thursday afternoon, Sir. I shall send the appropriate notice to Your Honour. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Is the minister aware of the difficulty that is being encountered by motor vehicle owners getting their vehicles inspected, getting appointments to get their vehicles inspected, the delays that are being caused and so forth? If the minister is aware of this does he contemplate an extension of the period in which you have to licence your vehicle this year? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROUSSEAU: The Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. No, I am not aware of it. Officials in the Motor Vehicle Registration may or may not be.

But I have had a meeting with Mr. Haire this morning, and Mr. Fewer, the Assistant Deputy Minister in charge, and they have assured me that thus far this year we are way ahead of last year's registrations. He indicates that there is no need for an extension in his opinion, and I accept that. Anything that was in the mail by this morning, the 24th. today is, anything jn 1979

March 24, 1975 Tape 644 (Afternoon) by this morning are guaranteed to have their licences , The boys went back over the weekend, and voluntarily, and cleared up everything, everything on the books. So all the mail is out, so we have no reason to believe that there would be an extension on the basis of the information we have. And Mr. Haire feels, as I Pk - 2 said, this year it is way passed the number of registrations for last year, and he sees no reason for it. MR. SEEAKE:l.: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR, NEARY: While we are the question of motor vehicles.

I ~onder if the Minister of Provincial Affairs, Sir, could tell the House whether or not he has yet instructed his Branch of Consumer Affairs to investigate the cost of motor vehicles, especially cars in this Province? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: Inaudible. Order, please! The Hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment. MR. G. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Corporate and Consumer Affairs in Ottawa has been requested to undertake an investigation into the cost of cars. It was requested by my department, and also by the Member for Bonavista South. MR.

NEARY: I am dissatisfied with that answer, and I wish to debate the matter, Sir, Thursday afternoon during the late show, and I will give it to Your llonour,in writing, in a few moments. MR. G. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to give the honourable member notice that I will not be in the House on Thursday. MR, NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I do not think it really makes any difference if the minister is here or not, Sir• I am still going to debate it on Thursda y afternoon. MR. DAWE: HR. NEARY: minister. A 'I HON, MEMBER : lH . SPEAKER: Inaudible. He may wish to delegate his authority to some other Inaudible.

Order, please! We are ready to proceed with Orders of the Day. Before we do that I would like to mention the point of privilege as raised by the Hon. Member for St. Barbe North 1980

March 24, 1975 Tape 644 (Afternoon) PK - 3 on the opening of the House on Friday morning resulting in a verbal exchange between him,and perhaps the Hon. Member for Hermitage, and the Hon. Member for Placentia East during the Thursday evening sitting of the House. It was late Friday afternoon before I obtained a full transcript of the Thursday night's proceedings, and the points raised by the Hon. the Member for St. Barbe North on Friday morning. I have read both very carefully, I have asked for advise from the Chair, and there are a couple of points that I would like to make.

(1) That a point of privilege should be accompanied by a motion. And if a prima facie case has been established then the House itself can proceed to debate that particular motion. The Hon. Member for St. Barbe North requested the Chair to ask the Hon. Member for Placentia East to retract his statement. The Chair does not have that authority, The House itself decides a matter of privilege~if a prima facie case has been established. It is the ruling of the Chair after very careful consideration that the Hon. Member for St. Barbe North did not establish a prima facie case, It is a difference of opinion as to the

interpretation of statements made by honourable members. And, of course, since the Hon. Member for Hermitage rose on the same point of privilege, then the same ruling applies to his point of privilege. HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Inaudible. Order, please! ORDERS OF THE DAY 1981

March 24, 1975 Tape no. 645 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on said bills, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen! Before the proceedings on this bill begin, I must ask honourable members to begin the week in a temperate mood, and I detect anything but temperance in the remarks made between honourable members here,and certain gestures made by one honourable member are certainly inappropriate. MR.

BARRY: To my recollection, we were dealing with clause 16. The Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I think I just got through explaining that

section 16 contained in the initial draft is rendered unnecessary by the rewording of

section 15, and the proposed amendment of

section 25, and this suggested

section 16 is a new

section dealing with the definition of a subsidiary of a company, and this definition is, in turn, made necessary by a later amendment to

section 17, which sets out in more detail the powers of the corporation with respect to subsidiaries respectively. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Chairman,

section 16, the amendment which the honourable gentleman proposes in itself is not objectionable. I hasten to say that does not mean that I am saying that it is objectionable in any other context. But I think it has to be read, together with the amendment which the minister or his colleague intends to propose to

section 17, because the amendment-to

section 16, in effect, replaces the old

section which had to do, as I recall it, with giving the corporation the power to sell at retail in any point in the Province. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the unamended

section says, subject to the rights 1982

March 24, 1975 Tape no. 645 Page 2 - mw of any person existing immediately before the coming into force of this Act, the corporation may sell power at retail in any part of the Province. Well it is proposed to drop that section, and I gather that makes little difference because, as the minister, I think, pointed out on Friday in committee, that power, if indeed it is a necessary power to be spelled out, is included at other points i~ the bill. So the new

section 16, in effect, gives us an extended definition of subsidiaries which, you know, reads like something out of income tax law, and in itself means nothing until we come to the proposed

section 17. Now I realize the difficulty is that at this stage, Your Honour, there have been no amendments proposed to

section 17, but we do have copies of them and so forth, and the proposed

section 17 or the proposed additions to

section 17 include quite a comprehensive list of powers relating to a subsidiary. Now it may be the correct thing to do, Your Honour, would be to pass

section 16. I mean there is no reason to object to it. It is a legalistic piece of work. If the lawyers tell us it is necessary, then sobeit and then go on to the amendment of

section 17 and debate it. But perhaps the minister in introducing the amendment,or his colleague, whoever will, you know, whoever is to speak to the point, would tell us why the government now propose to add the power to do things for certain subsidiaries. 1983

March 24, 1975. Tape 646 RH - 1 MR. BARRY: Well, whenever I introduce section (17). MR. ROBERTS: Whichever you wish. I mean (16) is,by itself, meaningless. On motion, amendment carried. On motion, Clause (16) as amended carried. mt. CHAIID-1.AA (Stagg) : Shall clause 17 - MR. ROBERTS: Well, I have an amendment, but I think also the honourable gentlemen have a more major amendment. Mine is a fairly simple one to

section 17(

d) and I have a copy here for Your Honour. Maybe the thing to do is to move this and then we could move the fairly lengthy one which the government have in mind. My amendment, Mr. Chairman is quite simple to amend section (17) by deleting subsection (

d) and replacing it with the following words, (

d) contract with any person for the purchase of petroleum products, notwithstanding the provisions of

an act to ratify an agreement between the government and the Golden Eagle Refining Company of Canada Limited, being act number sixteen of 1960. Now, ~r. Chairman, if I could speak very briefly in support of this, I raised at second reading stage this point about this particular part of section (17)'which\as Your Honour will see in the unamended version,gives the cor­ poration power to purchase petroleum products notwithstanding the provisions of any other act. I said that I objected to it on uhat I knew about it, that the minister had made no case in support of this principle.

Indeed it flew in the face of a principle that the administration had hitherto, with the notable and lamentable lapses of the Dobbin affair and the Trizec affair, that they had adhered to and put forward as being their policy, namely that of public tenders. The minister, when he spoke in - I am not sure if it was the gentleman from Placentia West or one of his colleagues, but one of the spokesman for the ministry in speaking to the point that I had made about the failure of the government in this important

section to comply with the policy, said that 1984

Jfarch 24, 1975. Tape 64E PJ] - 2 it dealt with the Golden Eagle Act. Now, I doubt if this is the place to go into a disquisition on the Golden Eagle Act and the wisdom or otherwise of it. It is in order and if we want to, let us, but the important point about the Colden Eagle Act is that it does restrict the government's ability to purchase petroleum products. That was what it was intended to do and far as I know,and I have seen it in operation, it certainly does so effect 1 and if the government decide that these purposes here, they do not want to be bound by it, I think that is a reasonable position.

The corporation, Sir, will be substantial purchasers of petroleum products. I am not concerned so much about the gasoline they will use in their cars and the lubricating oil they will use in their vehicles as I am with the Btmker C that they will be usine at the hydro thermal plant over at Holyrood and the other plants which are going to be - I bow to the junior Member from Harbour Main District who rises to the occasion as he so seldom does - and the other thermal plants which the corporation will be bringing into operation in Newfoundland the next few years.

Now, if that is the only objection, that is the only restriction that the administration wish to have removed, then my amendment, I submit , will achieve just that end. The wording of the amendment is quite clear. It will say that the corporation can purchase petroleum where they wish without regard to the Golden Eagle Act.

They will, however, the corporation will still be bound by the Public Tenders Act and if we are going to have a meaningful policy in this Province of adhering to the principle of public tenders , providing the contracts of the lowest, reasonable and responsible bidder on any given point, then sobeit. So I would hope the minister will accept this amendment. 1985

March 24, 1975 . Tape 646 It does remove their con<:etn or what they have stat·ed to be thei.r concern. It will still, however, leave the purchase of petroleum products by the corporation subject to the Public Tenders Act, So, I move the miiendment hoping it will be accepted. l1R. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): T):ie Mixµster ·of Mines and Energy. HON. L. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, I ain afraid that government cannot _support !;he ~endment suggested by tbe Leader of the Opposition because it is unnecessary. It shows an abysmal ignorance of the existing law. !',N HONOURABLE MEf.IBER: So, what is new? MR. BARRY: R~lly, quite frightening to ~e, it shows a lack of knowledge of the Public Tenders Act, 1986 RH - 3

March 24, 1975 Tape 647 (afternoon) "An Act Respecting Tenders For Public Works," Public Tender Act, 1974. AN HONOURABLE JIIEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: I do not know what the loopholes are in it, Mr. Chairman, but there is nothing - MR. WOODWARD: That is the one the mewber left - MR. ROBERT~: Now, hold on now, hold on now. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: " Bill Marshall'has exposed that loophole of course. MR. CHAI R.'1:AN: Order, please! Honourable gentlemen to my right are fully aware of the rule ., that a member speaking has thl! right to be heard in silence.

The honourable member is speaking to an amendment proposed by the honourable the Leader of the Opposition. Other honourable members have the right to be heard in their turn. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, I will say·that if there is any loophole in the Public Tenders Act, I have not seen any legislation emanating from the other side of the House to correct it, nor, Mr. Chairman, did I see legislation to enact the original act. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please: MR. BARRY: When the previous crowd were in power. MR. CHAIRMJ\N: Order, please! Order, please!

IB-1 It appears as if the irrelevancies introduced i~to the debate by members to my right are compounded now by the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. I suggest that they might deal with the proposed amendment. MR. BARRY: As I was saying, Mr. Chairman, if there are loopholes in the Public Tenders Act, I will expect to see some suggested amendm~nts MR. ROBERTS: You have to give him credit for persistence, have you not? MR. BARRY: - from the honourable members opposite which I have yet to see. Mr. Chairman, the

section in the act is quite plain. There is absolutely no ambiguity whatsoever with respect to the section. It says that notwithstanding any other act, the corporation shall have the power to purchase petroleum products from any person whatsoever. The 1987

March 24, 1975 Tape 647 (afternoon) IB-2 corporation may contract with any person, person including corporation, for the purchase of petroleum products notwithstanding the provisions of any other act. ~r. Chairman, this in no way changes the law with respect to the application of the Public Tenders Act to the Newfoundland existing Power Corporation or the new Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro­ Electric Corporation, For that reason the amendment suggested by the Leader of the Opposition is totally unnecessary and cannot be supported by government. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, if I may again, Sir.

Of all the nonsensical speeches I have ever heard made, that one took the cake, Sir. The minister, if I heard him correctly, and I can only assume he was saying it with tongue in cheek and had to because the powers that be have overruled him and decided that this shall stay in, said, he read the

section as un.amended which ·says - he read it more or less correctly - he said the corporation may contract with any person for the purchase of petroleum products, notwithstanding the provisions of any other act. In other words, the corporation, Your Honour, may go and buy petroleum products, a fairly broad category of products, one on which the corporation will expend $10 miilion, $20 million or $30 million a year from now on, a lot of money, they may go and purchase these, notwithstanding the provisions of any other act. Now, those words are as clear as words can be.

Then the minister says, but of course the Public Tender Act still applies. Well, what nonsense. ~IR . BARRY: I did not say that. MR. ROBERTS: The Public Tender Act - the main reason that that

section is in there is that the - no, I quoted the min1ster correctly. MF,. BARRY: You did not quote me correctly. MR. ROBERTS: I quoted the minister. I searched the transcript. I listened with great care. MR. BARRY: I sai~ it did not change the law with respect to the application of the Public Tenders Act to crown corporations - MF. ROBERTS: No. The Public Tenders Act applies,except it no longer applies if this goes through 1to the purchase of petroleum products. 1988

March 24, 1.975 TApe 647 (afternoon) 111- 3 Mr. Chairman, the minister's knowledge of law he parade ! time and t ime again - you know, with all due respect to his law sct ool, he may find they are trying to take back his degree with that sort ?f argument. llN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTfl: Yes, 'Where is Mr. Cabot Hartin now that we need h:un? He is in Geneva . He should be here advising the minister. It says, notw ithstanding the provisions of any other act. Now, that obviously, Your Honour, includes the Public Tenders Act. It includes every ar t on the books. It includes the Rouse of Assembly Act.

It includes the Bee Keepers Act whic'h we do not have in Newfoundland but which is one all the law students - it includes the Dog Act. It includes a bil l, "p, Act To 1989

March 24, 1975 Tape No. 648 NM - l MR. ROBERTS: Incorporate the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing ,, Corporation, it includes every piece of legislation that is currently in effect in Newfoundland, possibly several hundred acts, notwithstanding the provisions of any other act. So they are to be wiped out. In other words, Mr. Chairman, the only purpose of this is to wipe out other acts, including the Public Tender Act.

Now my amendment will bring back the Public Tender Act, it will bring back every act with the exception of the one which the minister said was the reason for this language being brought in, namely The Golden Eagle Act. All right,I accept the minister's point. I take him at his word. I believe him when he says The Golden Eagle Act will be an unnecessary and an mproper incumbrance upon the corporation, that the corporation should not have to adhere to The Golden Eagle Act when they come to purchase petroleum products.

I accept that, and the amendment which I moved was carefully drafted by leading council in the Province and not by me,I hasten to add, by leading council in the Province, gentlemen who may, one never knows, assend to higher heights than the Minister of Mines and Energy can even contemplate, let alone aspire to, drafted for the sole purpose of insuring that the only act that did not apply to the corporation in the purchase of petroleum products was The Public Tenders Act. Now what could be clearer than that?

The minister on the other hand gets up and he says the words are clear and he reads the words out and then he says of course The Public Tenders Act still applies. Mr. Chairman, if this

section is passed unaltered, the Public Tenders Act will not apply, neither will The Dog Act, the Fishing Industry Collective Bargaining Act, the Department of Health Act, you know,any other act Your Honour can care to name or that anybody cares to name, including ?he Public Tenders Act. So I ask the minister again, either to accept the amendment which after all does what he said he wanted to do in this part or 1990

March 24, 1975 Tape No.648 NM - 2 give the committee some good reason why we should waive all the legislation. I do not mind waiving The Dog Act in respect to the purchase of petrolewn products and I would not be particularly upset if a bill,

an act to incorporate a company to build a building to be known as Confederation Building were waived with respect to the purchase of petroleum products, but I do mind waiving the Public Tenders Act because I can see a little sweetheart deal coming up for thousands and thousands and more thousands of barrels of petroleum products,and you do not need to tender it. The corporation, Sir, and after all the corporation is bot the creature of the government, the members of the corporation hold office by virtue of the government and at the government's pleasure.

They are paid the amount of money the government say they are to be paid. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: The member for Bonavista South is living in the past. At least, Sir, he should look at living in the past, he has no future. If these things were wrong in the past, and maybe many things were wrong in the past, one of the reasons why we have The Public Tenders Act so-called, is to prevent these things happening again, not that they have. We would have had the Dobbin deal if the gentleman from St.

John's East had not had the courage to leave the Cabinet, expose the nefarious and rotten mess of that particular lease. AN HON. MEMBER: Order, order, order, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: Am I out of order? I thought the former minister was very much in order on that point. We would have been saddled with a $9 million contract. Well, Sir, we could be saddled with this here. The minister has given no reason. He is obfuscating in the extreme. He is not even rising to his normal level of nit picking. All he is doing is getting up and blandly saying we cannot accept it and then launching into an ad hominem attack on me.

Well that is fine. Let him ~ttack me if he wishes. If he gets his jollies by that, fine. But let him at the same time deal with the arguments on a substantial basis. 1991

March 24, 1975 Tape No. 648 NM - 3 The amendment which I propose would exempt The Golden Eagle Act. Now the minister is in trouble. He is now going to get,r predict 1his ally, the fireman - MR. BARRY: My mentors. MR. ROBERTS: Mentor, yes, if the minister in fact is an intellectual camp follower, we are now going to get the camp which he is following. I have made my point. I now call upon the aamp to speak for the camp follower. MR. DOODY: How could he refuse? HON. J. CROSBIE, Minister of Fisheries: Mr.

Chairman, we do not want to give the Leader of the Opposition any greater importance than he deserves,and that is minimal, but really, Mr. Speaker, we are not taking our legal advice from the Leader of the Opposition. He has never practiced law. So1number one, we are not going to take our legal advice from him and we have a Department of Justice with eminent draftsmen in that department of Justice and they advise the government on what the law is and what the law should be interpreted to mean and they give the best advice they can. The judge may some day hold it different, may hold that there is a different

interpretation. This clause (

d) now in the present legislation is required because there was an agreement entered into with Golden Eagle some years ago by the previous administration which gave them a monopoly on all oil sold to the Government of Newfoundland or any of its agencies. It gave 1992

March 24, 1975 Tape no. 649 Page 1 - mw them a monopoly if they established this refinery in Holyrood. Now that arrangement may or may not have been a wise one in the beginning,but it certainly has not been wise for the last two or three years when the price of oil started to skyrocket, and it was very desirable to see where you could get lower prices of oil. Now this amendment says that you no longer have to contract with any specific person for the purchase of petroleum products, notwithstanding the provisions of any other act, and the only other act referred to is The Golden Eagle Act.

The Public Tenders Act applies to the Power Commission, and it is not eliminated by this subsection. We are advised that The Public Tenders Act, our legal advise is that The Public Tenders Act is not affected by subsection ' (

d) of

section 17. And since that is our advice, we have no intention in changing the subsection drafted by our draftsmen. The Public Tenders Act will apply in the full rigor of every one of its sections. Every one of its sections will apply to the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Electricity Authority. This subsection (

d) of

section 17 does not affect that in the least. Therefore, we see no reason to accept the rewording of the clause prepared by the Leader of the Opposition, no matter who his counsel are, because we have every confidence in the aounsel that are now advising the Qovernment of Newfoundland in the drafting of legislation.and, therefore, we cannot accept the amendment that is being suggested by the Leader of the Opposition.

If we did it would be a reflection, it would be casting a reflection on the competence of our own draftsmen in the Department of Justice, who tell us that this does not affect in one particular, in one comna, or semicolon, does this affect The Public Tenders Act, which applies to the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Electricity Authority anyway. What it does is make legitimate, and the same clause was passed in this House last June, is make legitimate the fact that over the last two or three years, since this administration took power, Mr. Chairman, the Power Conmission has called tenders for gasoline, fuel 1993

March 24, 1975 Tape no. 649 Page 2 - mw and oil products, that they have ignored the Golden Eagle Act, and that they have called on all the oil companies to submit bids, and they have awarded it to the lowest tender. This means that that practice will continue in the £iture. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Bear! Hear ! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable gentleman because at least he has produced what purports to be arguments of some substance, unlike his junior colleague. Now let me try to deal with them, Sir.

I assume it is not in order to debate The Golden Eagle Act, and I do not propose to do so but it might be worth pointing out, Your Honour, that 'l'he Golden Act does not give any company a monopoly of the right to sell oil to the government. What it does do is give them the right to sell oil to the government at a competitive price, and there is a world of difference between the two. The price, I do not know, is defined at some length. I think it is called the posted tank car price or some such thing, and there is quite an extensive formula set forth in that legislation. AN BON.

MEMBER: It is futile for anybody else to bid against them. MR. ROBERTS: Well, it is futile for anybody else to bid against them if Golden Eagle are prepared to be competitive. If they are not competitive, then it is not only not futile for somebody to bid against Golden Eagle, it is eminently desirable for people to bid against Golden Eagle. I have no brief for the Golden Eagle Company.

They were given that incentive to come in and to build the refinery at Holyrood, and they built the refinery at Holyrood, which has been a great boon,I suggest 1 to that portion of the district represented by the gentleman, the junior member from Harbour Main. What does the refinery employ? I think there are 300 or 400 people up there and according to the advertisements I hear on the radio early in the morning on the VOCM news, 2,200 or something around Newfoundland, people who work at Golden Eagle, but that is not the point of this. 1994

March 24, 1975 Tape no. 649 Page 3 - mw I just wanted to deal with the red herring put up by the honourable gentlemau•a mentor, I wonder if they could keep it down to a dull roa.r in the corridors? The Minister 0£ Educ.ation speaks more loudly outside the House than he does in it, and I hope be makes more sense, AN HON. MEMBER~ (In4udible). MR. ROBERTS: us nobly, The I thank the honourable gentleman. He has served 1995

March 24, 1975. Tape 650 RH - 1 Minister of Fisheries attempted what for him, even for him, especially for him 7is a new high of double talk, Indeed, it was double, double talk. Your llonour, I am sure, is familiar with that book called "The Double Helix" or perhaps pronounced healix depending on whether Your Honour subscribes to the 1 he11° school of thought or the'heal' school of thought, but "The Double Helix" or 0 hea11x; which had to do with genetics and thus is quite irrelevant to anybody in this House, but ~.r. Chairman, - A..l\l HONOUR.ABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: Yes,DNA not BNA - I would not attempt to pronounce DNA - the minister might be able to, but it is "The Double Helix" or'healix! AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. ROBERTS: Is the minister a helix or a healix? The minister is a healix. Is he tomato or tomato? The healix school, the minister is in the healix school and there are those who say he should be in another r.chool, but that is not parliamentary. In any event, ?1r. Chairman, the minister I s contribution to the debate, the Minister of Fisheries, is even more conglutinate than a double helix or helix, no matter which one prefers.

He got up and he said that we want to be out from under the Golden Eagle Act. Well, I mean that is common ground. There is no argument from anybody on this side about being out from under the Golden Eagle - I do not even use Golden Eagle gas in ~y car. I mean1that is how concerned I am with Golden Eagle. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBER: Shame! Shame! MR. ROBERTS_: What do you mean? What do you mean, shame? Honourable gentlemen do not know it is all the same anyway. All the gas is the same. AN HONOURABLE MEtABER: Inaudible. 1996

March 24, 1975. Tape 6511 Fl! - 2 MR. ROBERTS: No, but it is all the same to the people in my district who work in other oil companies. You see, - A."< HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the people in Northeast Crouse, fine people, fine people. I buy Golden Eagle, the no lead stuff is useful on occasion but nobody here is concerned with Golden Eagle. What we are concerned with is insuring that the power corporation abide by the Public Tenders Act. Now, the words of the - AN HONOURABLE ME!-IBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: The gentleman from Harbour Grace is asking what type of gas I use, Sir.

I am not nearly as gassy as the honourable gentleman opposite. Now, Mr. Chairman, he has been banished, he has been banished to that Siberia next to the gentleman from Burgeo. MR. EVANS: You are full of carbon dioxide. MR. ROBERTS: I would rather be full of carbon dioxide than what the honourable gentleman is full of, ?Ir. Chairman. Now, Mr. Chairman, to come back to the Golden Eagle and

section 17(d). The Minjster of Fisheries says that the Public Tenders Act applies. The act itself, the

section itself we are debating here clearly says, notwithstanding the provisions of any other act. Now, I do not care whether I have practiced law or not, whether I have ever filled in the blanks on mortgages or all the things that lawyers down town do,or dreamed Ill) tax exellll)t corporations as the honourable gentleman opposite did when he was briefly in the herring business before going into the building business. If that makes me a great lawyer, then I am not a great lawyer, but one does not have to be a great lawyer or even a lawyer, I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, to see that the words, notwith­ standing the provisions of any other act mean the Public Tenders Act no longer applies. 1997

Marc h 24 , 1975. Tape 65() RH - 3 ·Now, the Minister· of Fishe _r.ies said~ Oh, we had the draftsmen in the deparl:]llent tell us this and we have confidence in them and faith in them. I say to the ndnister that I do not believe him. I do not believe that there is any advice from any solicitor employed by this government as a draftsman or in any other capacity saying that this

section is necessary in tbis form. I say .that without any fear of contradiction or hesitation. I may be cont.radicted but not with any validity, Mr. Chairman. If the minister has any such advice - now, the Crown are not responsible for tabling tlie legal advice they receive from their legal advisors 1nor should they be, but there is nothing saying that they cannot dq if they want to and I say to the minister that there is no such advice, that he is making this up on the spot to try to bolster·a weak case.

Now, if the minis ·ter really wants the Public Tenders Act t.o apply to the p_urchase of ten or ttrenty or thirty or forty, fifty million dollars worth of petrolewn products ea.ch year, those words must be changed because if those words stand as they are, Sir, if thoBe words stand as they are in

section 17(

d) without amendment, it means that the Public Tenders Act does t\Ot apply. It can mean nothinp; else. That is what the words say, notwithstanding the provisions o-f any other act and I challenge the minister or I challenge his camp follower or I challenge any honourable gentleman, be he honourable or learned or both, to 1998

March 24, 1975 Tape 651 (afternoon) produce any opinion from any solicitor or any draftsman or any member of the bar in this province, to say that the words, not­ withstanding the provision of any other act, mean that the Public Tenders Act still applies to the contract with any person for the purchase of petroleum products, I challenge him now. IB-1 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, if I might speak, just to address myself, I am not going to accept any red herring. '!'he inference of the honourable gentleman's remarks is that I am a liar. That is the clear inference of what he just said, that I said, and I repeat, that lawyers acting for the government have advised us that this

section does not preclude the application of the Public Tendering Act to the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro-Electric Authority, that it still applies to the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro-Electricity Authority with subsection (

d) of section (17) in the legislation. That is what we have been advised. Now, the honourable gentleman appeared to be doubting my word, but he went on with other words and indicated that he was not saying that we did not have that advise. He went on to something else. Now, just let me say, Mr. Chairman, whatever impression he is attempting to give, that the honourable gentleman is saying that we have not got that advise, I can only say that is up to him. He can believe or not believe what I havE stated. I state again, that our legal advise is that subsection (

d) of section (17) does not have anything to do with the application of the Public Tenders Act to this authoriry. It does apply despite that subsection being in it. Therefore, we are not going to accept his amendment. It is unnecessary. His attempts to pretend that this is a false statement and so on, I am not going to get excited about. That is all you can expect from him. _MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman,the honourable Leader of the Opposition referred to a very appropriate work here today as well. The book, "The Double Helix", Mr. Chairman, which was authored hy a Dr.

Watson and another doctor at Cambridge, I think it was - the work they are doing with this experiment resulted in a Nob~t Prize, ¥r. r.hainnan. But the fantastic thing that I found about that particular hook and that 1999

March 24, 1975 TApe 651 (afternoon) IB-2 experiment, they were involved in trying to get the molecular structure for DNA, Mr. Chairman, one of the fundamental building blocks of the human tissue, the human body. Mr, Chairman, there were almost an infinite number of combinations that they could use. They actually had building blocks. You have seen the pictures of molecules, Mr. Chairman. They had little balls and little sticks and they actually sat down and started to put together different models. They would get a theory and then they would try and put it together. Mr.

Chairman,there was an infinite number of combinations that these little blocks could be put into. They proceeded on a very basic assumption and a very, Mr. Chairman, brilliant and beautiful, in my opinion, premise that as they started to build these things,if it looked complicated or if it looked ugly, disgard it because nature, the basic principles of nature are simple and beautiful. They are not complicated and ugly. Mr. Chairman, they did that and they started putting together these little blocks and formed molecules.

Whenever they would start,. and after a few pieces were put together, they would see that it was becomirg complicated or becoming ugly, they would disgard it. In that way, Mr. Chairman, they saved countless hours, years, I suppose, lifetimes, Mr. Chairman. We probably still would not have had the structure of the DNA molecule discovered if they had not proceeded on that premise. Mr.

ChAirman, the honourable Leader of the Opposition is attempting to put history back thousands of years because he is proceeding on the assumption,whenever he stands up, that you try and complicate matters and you try and make matters as ugly as possible, just the complete opposite, Mr. Chairman, of the premise that these brilliant Nobel Prize winners proceeded on, these brilliant men who made fantastic contributions, not just to their particular area of scientific endeavor but to mankind, Mr. Chairman. They proceeded on the assumption, keep it simple, keep it beautiful.

The Leader of the Opposition proceeds on the assumption, complicated 2000

March 24, 1975 Tape 651 (afternoon) and keep it ugly. Now, Mr. Chairman, I do not care how much the honourable Leader of the Opposition attempts to complicate this issue, this particular

section of the act. I do not care how ugly he gets in his innuendos and his insinuations. Mr. Chairman, the simple fact is and remains that 2001 IB-3

March 24, 1975 Tape 652 (Afternoon) PK - 1 this

section - and I do not have to go to the advice of any officers of the law, Mr. Chairman, or any law officers of the Cro~rn in order to form my conclusions about this section. I can read it. I can read the Public Tenders Act. And I can say, and I can also say that I am supported by the law officers of the Crown, if that is necessary. I can say in reading this Act, and in reading the Public Tenders Act, and in reading

Section l 7(

d) that this does not, Mr. Chairman, interfere with the application of the Public Tenders Act to the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Electric Corporation. That because of this the amendment proposed by the Leader of the Opposition is unnecessary, is irrelevant. I can understand why he wants to have some input into this Act, Mr. Chairman. I can understand that he does not have any contribution to make in the energy field except these red herring. But, Mr. Chairman, please let us not have him expect the government to cater to his whims and to support these irrelevant, unnessary amendments that he is proposing.

We will not do it, Mr. Chairman. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I will ignore - really 1 ignorance is the only way to treat the honourable gentleman, and treat him in kind, I will ignore the ad hominem attacks, they speak for themselves. And if it makes the honourable I and if the honourable member gets the jollies then let him jolly on. But let me deal with what apparently is the only argument of substance the honourable gentleman opposite has been able to come up with. The Minister of Fisheries used some very precise words which I will accept. He said that this amendment, I am sorry, this

Section 17 (

d) as unamended does not preclude the Public Tenders Act. Well I acce!)t those words 1 I agree with them. Of course, they do not nreclude it. If the admini!5tration wish to follow it, they do not even need a Public Tenders Actlperiod. You know, a Public Tenders Act is only needed to bind an administration that chooses not to follow it. I mean)that is simple. But I agree with the minister, He very carefully 2002

March 24, 1975 Tape 652 (Afternoon) PK - 2 chose his ,,ord, his words in his legal-like way. It does preclude the Public Tenders Act. There is nothing in

Section 17(

b) as unamended that would in any way prevent the government from calling Public Tenders if they wished. But equally, Mr. Chairman, there is nothing which would make them call public tenders. This is an important distinction. The government purchased for the Corporation millions and millions of dollars worth of petroleum products in a year. I have no idea what they will be, how much they will be,but it is at least four times what it was three or four years ago because the price of oil has gone up by a four times factor in the last two or three years.

And if the bill was $10 million two or three years ago, to run the plant -at Duff's - Duff's Siding out in Holyrood, the big thermo plant - then it would be $40 million this year. I do not know how much it is, but it does not matter. It is obviously many million.

And there is no immediate prospect that it will ever decrease because the Arabs who control such a large portion or the OPEC organization which is mainly, but not entirely Arab, and tlese people control such a large portion of the oil supplies used by the Western World, these people obviously have no intention, and understandably so, of lowering the price they charge for their product, for their oil. So here we are, we are on the hook for millions of dollars.

Neither the Hon. the Minister of Fisheries nor his honourable colleague the camp follower, neither of these gentlemen had succeeded in making any substantive argument. Both of them seemed, if we may continue on our literary ·kick, Mr. Chairman - Is Your Honour about to do something? Your Honour is just going to sit there. Very well - if we may continue on with our literary allusions, honourable gentlemen opposite have picked up my "Double Helix" analogy.

I am glad to know that the honourable gentleman for Placentia West - there, thought I say it again,did you not,Sir? - the honourable gentleman for Placentia West has read that book, a very useful book. He has obviously also read "Alice In Wonderland", Sir, where Lewis Carroll - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: it was not his real name, but his pen name, I forget 2003

March 24 , 1975 Tape 652 (Afternoon ) PK - 3 the reverend gentleman's correct name, but Lewis Carroll was the n.ame on the book. Louis Carroll said, or had one of his characters in "Alice In Wonderland " - Your Honour may not have read "Alice In Wonderland" . I am not aware of any point in Your Honour ' s career was exposed to "Alice" or to "Alice in Wonderland''. 2004

March 24, 1975. Tape 653 RH - l Well, in any event, at some point in ''Alice in Wonderland one of the characters says, I believe it was the 0ueen of hearts, but in any event, one of the characters in that excellent little fable said, a word means exactly what I say it means, no more and no less. !Jell, that is the only defense which the gentleman from Placentia West and the Minister of Fisheries have been able to mount, the only defense. They say that the law officers of the Crown have advised them that these words do not take the purchase of petroleum products out from under the ambit of the Public Tenders Act .

But whlit do the words do if they do not do that, Sir? They also take it out from under the Dog Act, the Fishing Vessels Bounty Act, the Election Act, the Legislative Disahilities Act and any other statute. Of course they do.

P) l HONOURABLE MEMBEr.: Inaudible. ·- - !fil, ROBERTS: Any act, any act that any honourable member can care to name because the words say, notwithstanding the provisions of any other act. Now, the Minister of Fisheries ~Tith his usual and unwanted arrogance says that he will not table any results or any opinions. All right, but his acts speak for themselves. I cannot say the honourable gentleman is not telling the truth and I do not say that, but I will say, Sir, that his refusal to table any advice speaks for itself. I say, Sir, that if this

section is passed and this amendment is not accepted, that the government obviously intends not to follow the Public Tenders Act with respect to the purchase of petroleum products and I say, Sir, that their refusal is obvious, evident and apparant. Why they have refused, why they take this course of action, I do not knov . I can imagine and I am sure other people will imagine for me and I am sure in due course, other people will tell me why the government have chosen to take this multi­ million dollar expenditure out from under the Public Tenders Act. 2005

March 24, 1975. Tape 653 RH - 2 My amendment; Sir, would remove the strictures of the one act they say they fear. If it is not legally full or legally complete it would be not difficult for one of the many learned gentlemen who sit on the other side to find some words to achieve the end, but the administration's refusal to acc~pt the amendment means, Sir, that it is specious nonsense to say that the reason we are at this is because we do not want to observe the Golden Eagle Act. It is obvious, Sir, that the reason they are at it is to get away from the Public Tenders Act. It does not matter what words they use.

They are just being like Alice in Wonderland, words mean exactly what they say they mean and the ministers are severally and jointly trying to pretend that the words, notwithstanding the provisions of any other act, do not have the effect inter alia, but do not have the effect of saying that the government do not have to follow the Public Tenders Act. They could follow it if they wish but they are not made to and that is a change in policy and all the words used do not explain it, do not defend it and above all, do not justify it. I would again ~rge the amendment to be adopted, Sir. MR.

BARRY: t did wonder for a time how it was that the honourable the Leader of the Opposition could develop red herrings to the extertt that he at times got a little press and got a little reaction in this honourable House, but I see now that it is his reliance on Lewis Carroll and I must say that that is a very useful technique, Mr. Chairman. If I could just briefly, without unduely delaying the House, just give another quotation from Lewis Carroll, Mr. Chairman)that sort of epitomizes and symbolizes the approach which the honourable the Leader of the Opposition takes.

Lewis Carroll also said in one of his novels, I am not sure if it was "Through the 2006

March 24, 1975 Ta11e. 653 Looking Glass," I think it prohablv was - he said, "'Twas brilling, and the slithy toves/ Did ln'1"e and gimble in the wabe; " A."I )lO!i·_ ~ - it is called "Jabbel:'i/ockv " . MR._-~~ Mr, Chairman, it is nice, it is poetic, hi11h sounding language, Mr. Chairman. It almost makes sense. hut when you get right down, ~Ir. Chairman, whe.n you ,analyze it, you find that it does not mean anvthinr,. Now. I think we have struck UJ>On somethin R here today. RH - 1 2007

March 24, 1975 Tape no. 654 Page l - mw 'We have seen, Mr. Chairman, where the Leader of the Opposition has developed his technique. It is Lewis Carroll. And it is his technique of sounding poetic, picturesque. But succumbing to analysis, Mr. Chairman, succumbing to analysis, when you get down and analyze what was said, you find it was nothing. Now, Mr. Chairman, I do not mean to belabour this point. I will just say that I repeat that

section 17 (

d) of the proposed bill does not interfere in anyway with the application of The Public Tender Act, 1974 to the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Electric Corporation. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, there is no point going over the ground again, but I think it should be noted that the Minister of Mines and Energy has once again failed completely to defend his position or to make any defense on the merits. He seems to have had a nasty weekend. He possibly has heard of the uprising that is coming on the Burin Peninsula, the coming events casting their shadows before them. But, Mr. Chairman, the fact remains that the administration, by refusing to amend this

section - they can twist and turn and distort and slip and slither all they wish - that the administration, Sir, are junking The Public Tenders Act when it comes to the purchase of petroleum products by the corporation. It should be noted that this is not anything minor. This is millions of dollars a year. Maybe they will use public tenders, I do not know. If they do, it will be by their choice and not by direction of this House.

I think that is wrong, and I can only regret that the administration have chosen to do this and once again thrown out that principle they used to talk about of following public tenders and always protecting the public interest. It is obvious, Sir, that their desire, if ever it was there, has been dismissed and that their performance now is a sham as well as a shambles. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the committee ready for the question? Those in favour of the amendment "aye." Those opposed "nay." MR. ROBERTS: l wonder could we have a standing vote on that? 2008

March 24, 1975 Tape no. 654 Page 2 - mw I realize the Premier does not often come in the House but for once he has done the right thing. MR. MOORES: I was not up in Ottawa like you were last week. MR. ROBERTS: That is right. I got more done than you did. MR. MOORES: That is what you think. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) . MR. MOORES: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Do you want to try it? MR. MOORES: (Inaudible). Do you want to try it? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! There is to be no debate during a question.

However honourable members do not seem to care too much about that. In my opinion - MR. ROBERTS: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. ROBERTS: MR. MOORES: MR. CROSBIE: here. Is Your Honour implying - - the nays have it. Should it not be noted that the "ayes" included the Premier? Yes It shows that the democracy is running right over Mr. Speaker, I would like to move an amendment to subsection (

i) of

section 17, which would delete the present subsection (

i) and replace it with an amendment. Copies have been passed around, particularly to the Opposition. This would provide that the Hydro Authority could lend monies to a subsidiary of the Hydro Authority or could guarantee the repayment by a subsidiary of monies advanced to the subsidiary by a lender or guarantee the performance by a subsidiary of obligations of the subsidiary and that the subsidiary can carry on business incidental to the carrying out of the objects referred to for the Hydro Authority and so on. 2009

March 24, 1975 Tape no. 654 Page 3 Now the purpose, as I understand it, the Minister of Energy can correct ine if I am wrong, for the amendment is to provide for the fact - the lawyers advise us that this is needed because if the Gull Island project proceeds, for example, it will be proceeding through the Gull Island Corporation, which would be a subsidiary ·of the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Authority, and CFLCo would be a subsidiary of the Authority. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: Right. There are always plots on.

So the purpose of this amendment is to deal with the question of subsidiaries, and these subsidiaries would be CFLCo or the Gull Island Corporation. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, we have no objection to that. As I say, the minister and I were in Ottawa together last week plotting. We have quite a little plot underway, and we had quite a fine time at it. The only problem is that the minister went first class on the Government of the Province, and I went economy class on a private non~charitable educational institution. The amendment itself is a straightforward as anything along these lines can be.

It should just be noted that it is an extension of the power. This Corporation is being granted very extraordinary powers. We will have more to say about that at a later and more appropriate time, This just gives them further 2010

March 24, 1975. Tape 655 RH - 1 extraordinary powers but if they are necessary to do the job, we are prepared to go along with it. MR. CROSBIE: One other suggested amendment which would be a new subclause (3) of section (17) and the present subclause (3) would become subclause (4). Copies have been handed around. This would limit the power of the authority to _purchase or hold shares in another company.

It would provide that except for the prior approval of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, the Hydro-Authority cannot organize or maintain a subsidiary or buy shares in any other company without the approval of government. There is an amendment in line six of the new subclause (4) where it says now, if no shares are issued, pursuant to section (25) of this action, it should now be section (24), the sixth line of subclause (4). On motion, amendment carried. MR. CHAiru,1.AN (Stagg): Shall Clause (17) as amended carry? MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, I wonder if I may move that a new

section be inserted to be known as Section (17)A. I have a copy here for Your Honour. Some t:lme ago I sent copies to the honourable gentleman from Placentia West, so he is not unaware of this. The

section quite simply, Your Honour, reads as follows, to add a new

section to be known as(l7)A, not­ withstanding anything in this act,

an act respecting tenders for public work, being number (68) of 1974 shall apply to any purchases made or contracts entered into by the corporation. I think it speaks for itself, Sir. There should be no debate on it. It could be said that it is superfluous but that could not be said, Sir, that could not be said with any real meaning or conviction. There is a very real question as to whether or not that act applies. If honourable gentlemen opposite are as strong in their view that it does apply, let them adopt this amendment and that will resolve the matter once and for al]. 2011

March 24, 1975. Tape 655 RH - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN (STAGG): The Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, I am glad to see that the honourable Leader of the Opposition himself indicated before I had to, was that this amendment is another one that is superfluous. It is unnecessary. It will do nothing, Ur. Chairman, except give the Leader of the Opposition the opportunity to make a point, to say that he has had some input into this Act or into the energy policy of government, Mr. Chairman, when he has not made any contribution. Here again, the amendment proposed, Mr.

Chairman, will not in any way change the existing law and it is therefore unnecessary. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I regret that the minister - I do not regret that he once again choses to make a personal attack. That is his only line of defense these days and again that speaks for itself. It is obvious that he has no faith in what he is saying and no belief in the merits of his case. So, I do not think we need a long argument on it although if you want to have one, let us, but let it stand for the record Sir, that the Public Tenders Act does not apply to all portions of the dealings of the Corporation.

The government obviously intended it shall not apply. That is their design, their intention and their action and if they reject this amendment, apparently they will and I am somewhat disappointed but not altogether surprised, if they do this, if they reject this amendment it will be obvious they do not want the Public Tenders Act to apply. It will be quite obvious it does not apply and people of Newfoundland and Labrador will have to draw their own conclusions as to why not. ~'!R. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Shall the amendment carry? Those in favour "aye", those against "nay", have it.

On motion, amendment carried. 2012 In my opjnion the "nays"

March 21, 11)75. Tape 655 1m - 3 On mot.ion, Clauses 18 through 23 carried. NR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, if the honourable i entleman opposite wish es to move that this clause be dele ted, I wish to move an amendment that it be deleted and be replaced with a net-1 clause . Again, I loo!: to Your Honour for guidance. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudib le. MR . ROBERTS: Yes, you want to delete it, do you not? MR. CROSBIE: Yes. 2013

March 24, 1975. Tape 656 RH - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Well, let us delete it. Then I have a new one to - MR. CROSBIE: That is right. You want to move another - Mr. Chairman, then I would move that section (24) of the present act which has to do with·no actions or proceedings by way of injunction, mandamus, prohibition and so on would be prohibited, that that question was brought up on Second Reading as to whether this might effect Jndian or Eskimo claims and so on.

In our view, it had no effect, but in any event, we have agreed to take it out and I therefore move that section (24) of the bill be deleted and if the committee accepts that of course this will mean that the rest of clauses of the act will have to be - the numbering would have to be changed. For example, 25 will become 24 and so on. MR. ROBERTS : Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, there is a new 25 in - yes - we catch up again after that, yes, On motion, amendment carried. MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, if it is in order, I would now move a new section (24).

The piece of paper which I sent up to Your Honour, you know, was drafted on the assumption that 24 would not be dropped. So, the amendment will be - it does not change substantially.

It will read as follows: Nothing in this act shall in any way limit or abridge any right which any person possessed immediately before the package-of this act, to seek any remedy by way of injunction, mandamus, prohibition or other restraining process or proceedings of any nature in respect of any proposal or action by the Corporation which has or may have the effect of harming or causing damage to any right or property interest owned by any such person.

It largely speaks for itself, Your Honour, but in a very few words what it has is that any right which any citizen of Newfoundland has today before this act becomes law will continue 2014

March 24, 1975. Tape 656 PJ! - 2 in effect. It does not create any new rights but it just makes sure and certain that this House does not take away the rights of any citizen of this Province, whatever those rights may be at this time. It does not say what the rights are. It does not create any new rights. It merely lays it down that the present rights, whatever they are, and that is largely up to the courts to determine, that those rights continue without impairment and with out abridgement. MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): The Minister of ]lines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I think it must be some time since the Leader of the Opposition has read his amendment or else I am hearing him wrong because as I read it, this amendment contemplates section (24) remaining in. MR. ROBERTS: No, I - MR. BARRY: If section (24) is deleted - MR. ROBERTS: (First

part inaudible) when I introduced it, if the minister had been listening. MR. BARRY: As I said - MR. ROBERTS: When I introduced it, I said the amendment was drafted on the assumption that (24) would be in. It was subsequently announced that it would be out and if the gentleman had listened to the amendment, I said it is a new section (24) standing on its own. It reads nothing in this act shall in any way limit. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, again it is an unnecessary section. It does not do anything to change the existing law. Section (24) has been deleted and this

section 1like the others proposed and for the life of me I do not understand why we are engaged in this exercise. Again, I have to submit, Mr. Speaker, it must be that these are the only amendments that the honourable members opposite can come up with but they are amendments which do nothinr, to change the existing law. Whether this is enacted, whether this 2015

March 24, 1975. Tape 656 goes in the bill or whether it does not go into the bi.11 does not change the law one iota, not a jot, not a tittle, not an iota. Now, ~r. Chairman, does this honourable committee RB - 3 have nothing better to rlo with its time than to pass unnecessary am.endments? Does the Opposition have nothing better to do with its time than to propose unnecessary amendments, amendments which will not, in any way, in any way, change the existing law? I do not understand it, Mr. Chairman. What is going on? :1R. ROilERTS: :1r. Chairman, I can do nothing about the minister's inability to understand.

That is his problem, but I regret I I am not surprised 1that the honourable gentle­ men reject the amendments. I have a yaffle yet to come and I predict,rea.lly,with quite a degree of certainty that the administration will reject them all. I think they have made up their minds on that and that is fine. I shall 2016

March 24, 1975 Tape No. 657 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: ·move them assuming they are in order and if they are not in order Your Honour will out order them. But once again they have shown their arrogant contempt, There are a number of sections throughout this act which affect existing rights and again the government obviously intend to force them through.

We can debate it at any length one wants,Your Honour 1but the principle is quite simple, The principle we stand for is that the rights our citizens now enjoy should be unimpaired, The principle on which the honourable gentleman stands is that whether they are unimpaired or not he is going to put his bill through without amendment. We111he has the majority to his back for these purposes but it is wrong, it is wrong of him, it is 11111all of him and I regret very much that he has taken this attitude.

I had genuinely hoped; against experience, but I had genuinely hoped the minister, with what may w~ll be his last significant act in public life, was going to adopt a proper and an understanding and a reasonable and a moderate attitude but instead, Sir, he insists upon feeling that everuhing is rather superfluous or irrelevant. He gives no reasons of substance. The fact remains that the rights of our citizens are something which should be treated with tender regard. The administration propose to affect those rights and now they will not even allow a simple statement of fact which they say is their policy.

But has Your Honour noticed how often this administration states something to be a policy and then when the crunch comes and they have the opportunity to put it into action they back off? Well,here is just one more example where an alleged policy turns out to be just that, an alleged policy and no more else, nothing else. I am sorry the minister is taking this attitude but he is wrong. He is wrong as can be and Jn due course he will have to answer for it. On motion amendment carried, MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour.may I try again to move a new section? I have one here, Mr.

Chairman on a bit of paper for the minister's benefit. 2017

March 24, 1975 Tape No, 657 NM - 2 It was headed

(24) A, I want to be sure the minister understands these important points because generally speaking that is all he is able to understand. The

section would say simply, Sir, it could be the new section (24) because at present we have no section (24), nothing in this act shall be taken in any way to affect any right or interest owned ·by any Indian or Eskimo resident of the province. Again, Sir, it does not create any new rights. It does not state what rights are, It merely says >that whatever rights exist as of this moment in time continue to exist, Again, Sir, the govermnent have said their policies along these lines, now it remains to put it to the _test to see whether in fact their actions will support their words. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, really it is enough to leave one .breathless. We have the proposition put forward by the Leader of the Opposition that if this government says we do not intend to affect the rights of our native people by this legislation, and if we therefore put nothing in the act that affects their rights, but that is not enough, Mr. Chairman, we have to go further and we have to write in a

section which says that nothing in this act affects their rights. Again, Mr. Chairman, what is this, the fourth proposed amendment,or fifth, I have lost track, a proposal that will do nothing to in any way change the existing law. Now we could spend,I would say 1 the rest of our lives, Mr. Chairman, thinking up little amendments that do not change the existing law. We could spend thousands, ·ihundreds of thousands, millions of dollars on having these amendment typed up and having them debated in this honourable House and having them proclaimed, to what effect, Mr. Chairman?

What does it do for our people in the Province to pass an amendment that does nothing to change the law. But you put it in there because the honourable Leader of the Opposition, for some unusual quirk of his own, 2018

March 24, 1975 Tape 658 (afternoon) IB-1 some frivolous, vexatious and irrelevant reason believes that it should be put in. Mr. Chairman,do the people of Newfoundland expect that this is the way this Committee and this honourable House should carry· on its business, spending all its time accepting suggestions of the Leader of the Opposition and honourable members opposite, that we pass legislatjon that will do nothing to change anything? I realize that this is probably the major plank in the election platform of the honourable memhers opposite. We will do much but change nothing. Mr.

Chairman, this honourable House, this Committee, cannot be expected to accept these unreasonable suggestions of the Leader of the Opposition. Accordingly 1 with great regret - Mr. Chairman, I have been waiting all weekend 1for weeks, for months I have been waiting for a constructive suggestion from the members opposite that would do something to further the energy policy of our Province, to improve the lot of our citizens, Mr. Chairman. And what do I see? I see the honourable Leader of the Opposition getting up and time after time proposing these unnecessary amendments.

It is enough to tear the heart out of you, Mr. Chairman. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I 3111 very heartbroken about the minister's heart. It is nice to know that he has one. If he had a head to go with his heart, we would be a little better off. The minister may - AN HONOURAflLE ME't-'BER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I must admit that is about Grade X debating but when you are in Kindergarten with the honourable gentlemen opposite you tend to use tactics which they will understand.

The minister once again has revealed that the administration's public statements of policy are not statements which they intend to translate into action. This whole question of native rights is exactly similar to that of the Public Tender Act and the administration have no thougb t of adherinfl: to the public tender system, and that has been shown time and time again. The minister has no thought of paying due heed to whatever native rights may at present exist. He can say what he wishes 1subject to the rule~ of the committee. He can take any tack he wants about how heartbroken he is 2019

March 24, 1975 Tape 658 (afternoon) IB-2 or how disconsolate he is, but he has not been able,and it should again be noted, he has not been able to raise any arguments of merit or of substance. Again he is using his ad hominem arguments. He cannot find any arguments that speak to the subject matter, so he has to try to get into personal irrelevancies. Again if that gives him his jollies, if that gives him - MR. BARRY: What personal - MR. ROBERTS: I do not say - I said personal irrelevancies as opposed to subject.

If the minister wishes,it was translating"ad homineU:' for the benefit of honourable gentlemen opposite who unlike him do not understand exactly what the word means. The minister has no arguments of merit. He has yet to find one. He has done everything except read all of "Jabberwockv". He started the first part of it, hut equally he could have quoted the - he would have been equally relevant, Sir, in most of his remarks if he had used another of Lewis Carroll's poems, "The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of many things,/ Of sailing ships and sealing wax ;-of cabbages and kings." MR.

BARRY: I disgarded that one. l"R. ROBERTS: The minister would have been as relevant to say that as he has been to say anything else. I regret the ministry's determination. I do not mind them. I can understand them being too proud to admit a minor amendment here and a minor amendment there, but that again, that shows their weakness, not anybody els~s. What I do regret is that there is a feeling among our native peoples that the government are acting to hurt them, that they are taking away their rights, they are prejudicing the case. The minister says this is irrelevant.

I might point out - I have a number of cables if the minister would like to study them. Maybe he could table his. I would point out that the minister says this

section is irrelevant and superfluous. I would point out that the Government of Quebec,launching upon a very large hydro project, made a similar commitment. This

section is taken almost verbatim from the legislation 2020

March 24, 1975 Tape 65R (afternoon) TR-3 adopted by the Government of Quebec. So, the minister is now going to play gotcha. 1 invite him to get to his feet and to try to getcl me. The Bansard gir ls will have trouble with that phrase . But if he has something of importance, let him say it. It is more than he has said all. throughout the committee debate so far. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, 2021

March 24, 1975 Tape no. 659 Page 1 - mw I have to confess that I am at a loss, a virtual loss, not for words, Mr. Speaker, but for adequate adjectives to apply to the Hon. Leader of the Opposition. The unbelievable logic which says that if government does not put in a positive statement confirming what the legislation is already doing, then it is not living up to a policy of government. That is logic? That is logic,Mr. Chairman? That is logic? MR. ROBERTS: MR. BARRY: MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, to a point of order. That is an argument, Mr. Chairman. To a point of order.

The honourable gentleman is allowed to argue, and indeed I wish he would, but he is not allowed to misrepresent, and I submit that what he has just said,allegedly representing what I said, is a misrepresentation. It goes beyond the limits of acceptabl~ argument. If the minister cannot deal with the substance of an argument, I would ask Your Honour to rule that he not be allowed to misrepresent the argument. I made no such statement as that which he attributed to me.

I made no such implication, and even his desperate effort to try to find something to say to defend an indefensible position surely cannot justify the way he is going at it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Well1 some times the argument between the two honourable members is rather precise, and pre-supposes a certain knowledge from the Chair that some times may be lacking, especially when honourable members are quoting poetry and their authors. However, I believe that this is basically a disagreement between two honourable members and both have the right to clarify their positions adequately. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Chairman, I will make just one point. The Hon. Leader of the Opposition said that the native peoples of our Province are feeling concerned and endangered and threatened by government, feeling that government is out to take away rights. that they now have. Mr. Chairman, nothing could be further from the truth. It was only last Thursday, Mr. Chairman, that myself, my 2022

March 25, 1975 Tape no. 659 Page 2 - 1DW colle~gue, the Minister of Transportation and Conmunications, the Minister of Industrial Development and many other ministers of this government, had the opportunity to meet again with not just representatives of the Native Association of Newfoundland, Mr. Chairman, but also with representatives of the Innuit people of our Province, Mr, Chairman, representatives of settlers in Labrador, the three main divisions, Mr. Chairman, of the citizens of this Province residing in the Labrador portion of our Province. Mr. Chairman, they were appreciative of the fact that government have decided to remove the

section in the act, not Mr. Chairman, because they believed that government has put this

section in there to in anyway interfere with their rights. They said this, Mr. Chairman. But they were aware as government was aware that this is a very sensitive area. They were aware, Mr. Chairman, of the statement , made by the Leader of the Opposition, casting a certain tone to this section, implying that there were certain underlying affects of this section, statements, Mr.

Chairman, which I said last week were mischevious statements, -and wnicn I repeat, I consider to be mischeviaus statements by the Leader of the Opposition to create difficulties, to create concern to the minds of our native people that there is no reason for there being any such concern. Mr. Chairman, the conclusion of our meeting with the representatives of the Native Association - and the meeting was not because of this section, Mr.

Chairman, this was only an incidental matter brought up, just one of our continuing series of meetings that form part of our continuing dialogue with our native peoples as with all the other citizens of our Province - Mr, Chairman, the conclusion of that meeting was with respect to this

section that it is being deleted. The Native Association was appreciative of that fact. They have no concern that anything in this Act, as it exists now, is going to in any way interfere with their rights, Mr. Chairman, why 2023

March 24, 1975 Tape No. 660 NM - 1 is it necessary to put in another

section in this act that again would do nothing to change the existing law, that would be just an unnecessary section, meaning nothing. There is no point in our supporting any such amendment, Mr. Chairman, and I have to sit down now and find out what all the excitement is, causing the honourable members to roam around. MR. ROBERTS: The excitement certainly is not with anything the honourable gentleman said. But there is somewhere over on this side a mysterious spirit is moving and it is some sort of radio. I thought we were being invaded again.

It is not a demonstration outside the building and Your Honour, I gather 1picked it up. We got - MR. BARRY: - no offence meant. MR. ROBERTS: I mean it is the spirit of George McLean coming to see us. But really it is distracting. I do not know what it is but can Your Honour - MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, it may be that this honourable House is haunted by other than the honourable members opposite. AN HON. MEMBER: Lewis Carroll. MR. ROBERTS: Could be. If Lewis Carroll eame back to - AN HON. MEMBER: Joey coming back. MR. SIMMONS: Do not get concerned. MR.

ROBERTS: I would rather have him back than have you there 1 I would tell you that. MR. EVANS: You would never see it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: But sure, sure. MR. EVANS: In your place. MR. ROBERTS: Sure, sure. MR. SIMMONS: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: What? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Well, I am fine. MR. MORGAN: He will sit in your seat. 2024

March 24, 1975 Tape No. 660 NM - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: What is it? Is it coming from outside. MR. EVANS: He is going to be speaking in White Bay North the next time. You know that,do you? MR. ROBERTS: Well now, Your Honour - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Maybe the campaign has started already)has it? MR. ROBERTS: Yes, we do not know whether Saturday night was a considered statement or one that was a result of a little too much good cheer. MR. BARRY: It is the Liberal Reform Party kicking off their campaign. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

Well,honourable gentlemen have now quieted down. I believe that what we are hearing is feedback, according to a gentleman in the gallery. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the Premier and I unfortunately would be out of order if we debated the real issue which we would like to talk about)but maybe we will have an opportunity, If the Premier would like a lift to Government House I would be happy to give it to him. If the Premier, Sir, would like a lift to Government House at any time, he should just give me a ring and I would be happy to take him down.

He could wait upon His Honour the Lieutenant­ Governor and advise His Honour to take certain steps. I gather the Premier was in high spirits Saturday night in many turns of the phrase, But to come back to the Minister of Hines and Energy, Mr. Chairman, the minister has once again, you know not made any - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Is the Premier going to observe the rules of the coDD11ittee Your Honour ? He is so seldom here I realize that he > probably does not know what the rules are. MR. MOORES: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: There he goes again, Mr. Chairman.

He is deliberately trying to prov•ke me, trying to - 2025

March 24, 1975 Tape No. 660 NM - 3 AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I have every confidence in the Chair's ability to protect the rules of the House and if the Premier is not aware of what they are then perhaps he could have a word with 1 say>the gentleman from St. John's South who I think has a deep and abiding knowledge of the rules and a concern that they be enforced, or any of his other friends on the other side. Any number of them would be happy to help him. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I think this has gone far enough.

Some honourable members want to engage in little conversation across the floor and that happens quite often, and with the consent of both members it is tolerated. However,for one honourable member to goad another and then - or to invite reply 1and then having gotten reply to ask the Chair to protect the honourable member is going a bit too far. MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour is not implying that I was goading the Premier. Now, Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Mines and Energy has left the House briefly but I guess he has just gone out for a cigarette or some advice, whatever he is doing out there. But, Mr.

Chairman, the minister again made no substantial defence on the point. Of course the native peoples and the Innuit peoples are pleased that

section is coming out but it must be recorded that the only reason this

section is coming out is that the Opposition raised substantial objection to it. The fact it is coming out means that the government concede the objections are valid. They may not say that. They may not have the courage to admit it, but the fact remains this

section is coming out because the objections raised to it were of substance and were correct. The amazing thing, Mr. Chairman, is that this is not some bill which was hurriedly put together. This is one bill which was put together over a period of six or eight or ten months; allegedly with care and with attention by the administration, and 2026

March 24, 1975 Tape 661 (Afternoon) PK - 1 they meant, Mr. Chairman, to take away rights from our native peoples. They intended that. The whistle was blown on themJto use the metaphorical expression, it was blown, and they have acted in the proper way. And now unfortunately they will not go the step further and make the positive affirmation. Well I regret that. I can only move the amendment, and speak in support it. And the mass of us on this side will say "aye" in favour of it. We have decided that The other honourable gentlemen opposite can vote as their consciences or their government dictates.

But it is just unfortunate the minister really is so unwilling to admit that what is right, is right, and to do the right thing, to implement what :Is right. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: I am just overwhelmed again by the logic of the Leader of the Opposition. Did I hear him rightly or? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: Did he say that on the one hand, we were amending the Act, listening to the advice of the honourable members opposite, and on the other hand, we were being arrogant in refusing to amend the Act? I do not follow the honourable Leader of the Opposition.

I wonder if that could be explained a little further? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I would be happy to explain it because I did not say it. The minister is over there so over-joyed with his picayune little points that he imagines things. The noise we heard up here was notimagining but the noise the minister hears is imagining. What I said again was that the government have done the right thing by taking out this section, but they will not do the right thing by going the extra step, and they should. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the amendment carry? Those in favou .r "Aye", those opposed "Nay".

Close, but I think the "Nays" have it. Shall Clause (24) carry? On motion Clause (24) carried. MR. CROSBIE: When you said (24) - that is the new (24) is it, that was (25\ is that it? Yes. Okay - 2027

March 24, 1975 Tape 661 (Afternoon) Pk - 2 MR. ROBERTS: No.You are going to make the present (25), we have now no (24) because - MR. CROSBIE: It is void. AN HON. MEMBER: Are you going to carry it? MR. CROSBIE: I had moved that - MR. ROBERTS; Well, Mr. Chairman, we may have carrted it but there is nothing to carry. It was amended out of existence. MR. CRO!'BIE ; Well I move that

Section (25 ) become,; Section (24) and that Section (24) carry. MR. ROBERTS: Explain! Explain! Explain! MR. CROSBIE: All right? Unless you:r - MR. CHAIRMAN: For the second time shall Clause (24) carry? MR. ROBERTS: As amended, Your Honour? MR . CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause (24) as - Shall the amendment carry? MR. ~OBERTS: Hear! Hear! Carried. On motion Clause (24) aH amended carried. AN RON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, this is a difficult tas ·< but now I would like to move that we add to the Bill a new Section (25), and from then on we can carry on with the same

section numb,?rs. The copies have been given to interested members. And the nubject is grant of franchise in Labrador. And the pu'rposi, of the amendment is that the Lie11tenant-Governor•in-Council may grant the franchise in Labrador. It has something to do with franchises, I think. The Minister of Mines and Energy will have to expla j n what the purpose of it is, but I move it. It has to do with the fact that in the previous clause we dealt just with the Island, and this deals with granting franchises in Labrador. MR. BARRY: The purpose, Mr.

Chairman, if you go back to Section (15) ' you will find that the original Section (15) gave the Corporation automatically the sole and exclusive right in franchise ~hroughout the Province, but later advice of solicitors, law office r s of the Crown and so on have indicated that there could be probl.,ms with respect 2028

March 2 4, 1975 Tape 661 (Afternoon) Pk - 3 to the bond indentures that now exist taken out by the old Power Commission which would fix upon any new rights in Labrador that would be put into the Power Comm;lssion as continued in the Hydro Electric Corporation, and'. to avoid that the water rights of Labrador be it any way tied up or caught up in the legal problems with respect to the existing bond indentures to the corporation.

The Act as it now reads would by Section (15) give the aydro Corporation automatically the existing rights of the Power Corporation on the Island, but W0uld not give the Corporation the rights in Labrador until these were granted by tlie Lieutenant-GoVernor-in• Council , Well this · would be done at a time when the various legal technicalities have been tak~ care of so as to avoid any complications with the existing bond indentures and so on. 2029

March 24, 1975 MR. ROBERTS: Tape 662 (afternoon) Mr. Chairman, for our part we have no objection to this new

section 25. It seems to be a fairly straightforward piece of s tuff and fairly reasonable in the circumstances. I do thinkitll0ugh >two comments are made with realtion - or a cODU11ent arid a request. The comment is IB-1 first of all to express a little wonderment at this entire bill, the third or fourth quite substantial amendment which has been considered and most of which have been adopted proposed by the government. I find this quite amazi.ng in a piece of legislation that was introduced, we were told, only after long and detailed consideration and study.

I do not think in my time in the House,and there are only two or three men who have been in the House longer than I have, Sir; I do not think I can every remember a major government bill, and this is certainly a major piece of legislation, ever coming to the House and then in committee stage being amended so substantially for reasons which can be anticipated, reasons which are straightforward, reasons such as our solicitors looked at it and discovered that, you know, the bill was badly drafted. That is what the minister was just saying. Three, six, eight, ten, eleven , twelve. Yem· Honour that is not a quorum.

I think with a bill this important to the Province, the very least the committee can do, Sir, is have a quorum. There are five of our members available out of eight and there are only seven of the government members here. I wonder could l call a quorum please, Your Honour? f-!R . CHAIRMAN: We have a quorum. MR. ROBERTS : I am very glad we do, Mr. Chairman. I do not begrudge the Premier his cup of tea or coffee or whatever it is he was having. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Coffee. MR. ROBERTS: Coffee.

Well, I do not begrudge him that, nor do I begrudge any honourable gentlemen whatever reasons they went out, but I do think this bill is sufficiently important. The honourable gentleman might have been listening. I am very glad if he listened. AN HONOl.ll!ARLR l-'E1'fRE'!l: Inaudible . MR. ROBERTS: The honourable member for Labrador North, Sir, should be 2030

March 24, 1975 Tape 662 (afternoon) in the Rouse shortly. His airplane is landing at ten after five. He had hoped to go home on Saturday but he did not ge:t home until Sunday. Ml HONOURABLE MEMB.ER: Is this bill imp~rtant to him? MR •. ROBERTS: The bill is very important to him ancl he did not get home until late yesterday because EPA were not able to oper-ate Ill -2 on Saturday or at any point on Sunday. Be ran into much the same problem as kept the Pre111ier in Labrador West last weekend, difficulties with air transportation. Ml HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: Well, the honourable gentleman will be hei-e in due cours -e. I have no doubt he will make his presence felt in his usual effective and forceful manner. He will be like a fresh br.eeze from the North for honourable gentlemen opposite. As I was saying, Mr. Chairman, I think it is noteworthy that this bill has been so substantially amended so l!lany times. It shows the haste with whi.ch it was put together and the lack of precision and the lack of attention which the minister has paid to it.

These amendments which we are now having to consider could easily have been turned up and would have been turned up if the job had 1:>een done properly , The bond - 2031

!!arch 24, 1975. Tape 663 RH - l /IN HONOURAflLr: MEMBER: You are getting mad. ~rn.. ROBERTS: I am not getting - I am beconing, insofar as the rri.nister is concerned almost pleasant, charitable. How can one b , less than charitable with the minister. I mean my heart yearns for him. I ache with the desire to help him. He so obviously needs help and these amendments, Sir, are amendments w'1ich should not have been necessary. The indenture covering t e first bond issue at Bay D' Espoir which was made in, I b(lieve, 1964 or 1965, is a registered document.

Anvbody may drift into the Registry of Deeds downstairs and look it up, a1 1 couple of hundred · pages of, it. The solicitors in the government service are intimately familiar with it. They were irvolved in its preparation and they have been involved in its ir.terpretation and application for lo these ten or eleven years. So, the, minister now finds himself in tlte unhappy position of having to nake amendments that are importan• : and are acceptable but amendments which should not have to be done as amendments. if the minister had done his job or the minister, whoever drafts tl ,e bill, had done the job properly.

I woulC: ask one further question, though, Mr. Chairman, with respect to (25) which deals with a franchise in Labrador. It is the part of this vexing question of different rates for prices for po~er and there is nothing in this bill that says tliat the government shall charge a uniform rate throughout the Province. We now have a uniform rate for hydro throughout the Province. Almost all of the hydro power in the Province is supplied by, the retail end of the system,by private companies.

The government rate tends to be somewhat higher because it tends to be the diesel fuel plants which are government plants and while the goverlll!lent subsidize them, they do not subsidize them sufficiently to enable the rate to be made equal to the hydro rate. 2032

March 24, 1975. Tape 663 RH - 2 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are talking about domestic rate. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry? AN RONOURAl!LE MP.MBER: You are talking about domestic rate. MR. ROBERTS: Well, either domestic or commercial. The domestic rate for diesel power is somewhat higher than the domestic rate for hydro power and the commercial rate tends to be higher except in such special circumstances.

It is higher - the minister is jotting a note feverishly - it was lowered somewhat a little while ago for people using one or two hundred tilowatt hours a month but not for people using - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: 500 - for not for people using - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: No, the industrial - well, I will come to the industrial rate in a minute but 500 kilowatt hours a month is not a lot of power. You are not talking about electric heat when you are talking about using more than 500 hours. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR .

ROilERTS : No, I would think any significant use of electrical applia nces would drive one well above that. At this stage, I am not critizing the administration on it. What I do want is an assurance that we will have throughout this Province in Labrador and in Newfoundland,the two parts of the Province, an assurance that we will have the same rate.

If the hydro rate - I am sorr y­ if the diesel rate is still somewhat higher than the hydro rate I would suggest the government give consideration to equalizing it even if that would mean a little greater subsidy or perhaps a little bit more, a little teensy weensy bit more and all the hydro customers would bring the diesel customers down~ I do not know what the difference is in dollars but uhen we are talking of the Lower Churchill project with revenues of a couple of hundred million dollars a year coming in when it goes on stream, the extra cost is not that significant. Commercially , 2033

March 24 , 1!'75. Tape 663 Jill - 3 as I unders cand it, we have a two point policy. One point is that the commercial rate g enerally is higher and the second point is tha t it is not higher in respect of a number of favourite indus tries. the fish industr y, the fishing industry, the fish plants for understandable reasons are given commercial rates equal to the hydro rates . The Canada Bay Lumber Company at Roddickton have the similar rate. The Newfoundland Forestry is it? - the Hawkes Bay, the Bowate r s - Lun.dt'igan operation at Hawkes Bay have a similar rate, some of the favourite few, hut the ordinary commercial customer, a store owner or a bus