• LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 22 April, 1982 Time - 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. CHAIRM AN, Phil Eyler (Riv er East): We are con­ sidering Item 2. (c)( 1) Salaries, Small Enterprise Development. The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRAN K JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Chairman, the First Minister has indicated on several occasion now that there may be, or could be, an increase in the sales tax in the Province of Manitoba.

Now I know the Minister said earlier today that we've been trying to anticipate what the budget is going to be but the fact that the First Minister, on many occa­ sions as I said, has indicated that the sales tax may go up and there has been a delegation that came down from the western part of Manitoba to meet with the Minister of Finance regarding the problems that could cause with the businesses along the border in Mani­ toba, the Saskatchewan-Manitoba border.

Was the Minister involved in those meetings and has the department done any extensive research or any research at all regarding the effects that an increase in sales tax in Manitoba would have on the businesses in the western part of the province? MR . CHAIRM AN: Madam Minister. HON. MURIEL SMITH (Osborne ): Mr. Chairperson, I wasn't part of that delegation but I have spent some time in the western area, the north western area of the province, and spoken to business people in the Rob­ lin, Grandview and Dauphin areas.

In the Roblin area I know there's a lot of travel back and forth across the border and I guess those particular merchants feel very sensitive to minor changes in costs. My own feeling would be that probably the pattern of movement back and forth across the border is based partly on desire for some variety and attach­ ment to the recreation facilities. I gather that Manito­ bans tend to like to go into Saskatchewan to Madge Lake and Saskatchewanites tend to like to come into Manitoba.

I guess it has a little bit of the feeling of going to some place a little more exotic even if the facilites are almost identical and that the impact of a slight increase in cost probably wouldn't deter the great majority. I confess that there's been no specific detailed analysis on an impact of a particular tax in this instance but I think we're well aware that anything which raises costs to any business person or distribu­ tor or consumer tends to wreak a bit of a hardship.

I guess we would all like to live in the best of all possible worlds where prices went down and income went up and life would get better and rosier for all and sundry day after day.

We don't live in that kind of a world and, therefore, the choices that will be available to me and my colleagues will be to make prudent choices in terms of how to raise money and how to spend money, and because it's part of our basic philosophy, we will be looking at the impact on all groups in the community and we will be taking care to ensure that the heaviest burden doesn't fall upon the most vulner­ able or the weakest members of society.

We know that there may be short-term problems for people who feel an immediate impact, but it is our belief backed up by all the economic research that we have done on a broad scale, that the community as a whole benefits most when there is a mixed package of public and private investment and an equitable form of raising money and distributing benefits and it will be that spirit that will govern us when we make our final decisions of the mix of measures in our Budget.

I think, therefore, to focus especially prematurely because the members Opposite are at this point guessing what will be our final package and they're focusing on one factor only, rather than looking at the mix of possibilities available to us, that it's premature and not terribly productive to zero in on this one hypothetical possibility. MR. JOHN STON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm very con­ cerned about it. I would like to refer to an

article in the Free Press, March 22nd, regarding "Fargo Flourishes and Moorhead Licks its Wounds," where we've had a thousand jobs lost in Fargo or lost in Moorhead to Fargo, where we've had companies moving into Fargo from Moorhead and establishing there, and it says, "I t's really depressing," says Lynn Fundingsland - whoever that may be - the city planner at Moorhead, "if you drive around Moorhead and see the closure of businesses going to Fargo." Bob Langsmith and Roger Moe who is a democratic farm labour represen­ tative from Ada, north of Moorhead and other members of the Minnesota Democratic Farm Labour Party, who have said that it's the case of better tax structure in North and South Dakota that is absolutely devastat­ ing the towns of Minnesota.

It says here that at the Holiday Mall, a shopping centre south of town, there are several empty store fronts abandoned by retails, buffeted by the poor economy and hard pressed to compete with retailers less than a mile away in North Dakota, where among other things the sales tax is two percent less than in Minnesota. 1764 I submit that that's an excellent example because they're both smaller communities than Winnipeg is.

They're small communities like we have on the west­ ern part of our province that are not too far away from shopping areas in Saskatchewan and if our taxes .are such in Manitoba, any type of taxes or all types of taxes are not competitive, we are only going to be losing our small businesses to Saskatchewan and those small businesses are being established there because of businesses such as the oil plant and, hope­ fully, the potash plant.

Saskatchewan businesses will end up being the supplier to our industries in Mani­ toba and the Manitoba businesses will either have to stand by and watch or move to Saskatchewan. The same thing applies along the Sasakatchewan­ Alberta border in many places where we find that shopping is being done in Alberta by Saskatchewan residents. The Minister may say that a small increase if it comes in will not be effective but I can tell you, •

Thursday, 22 Apri l, 1982 when you're buying the higher ticket items and there's 2 percent more tax - or let's just say more tax we won't guess at what it may be in the Province of Mani­ toba - our business people will suffer. I'm wondering, Mr. Chairman, ifthere has been any studies done or any work done to anticipate or get some idea of what we may lose in Manitoba by looking at the Saskatchewan-Alberta situation and also hav­ ing a very close look at what's happened between Fargo and Moorhead in the States to the south of us. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chairperson, I am a little surprised at the illustrations that are coming from our neigh­ bours to the south because I thought where the market system held more sway that somehow such problems didn't tend to occur at least not such magni­ tude. I'm not too surprised at that kind of instability because I think one of the points we've been trying to make is that an open market system is an unstable system.

I have particular sympathy for the people in Minne­ sota who may lose business or find that their econ­ omy is slowing when they also don't have health cov­ erage and access to some of the social programs that we pride ourselves on here in Canada. Let's not forget why we're talking about taxes at all.

We're talking about taxes to raise the necessary funds to provide some of the social benefits that we all share, highways for you and for me, airports, hospi­ tals, schools, social programs for your grandparents or mine who may be in distress, for disabled children or relatives that we might have, for people who are met with particular adversity and I for one don't think that my right to shop in a small store at a slightly lower price, when weighed in the balance against the very basic needs of some of those people for economic security, always weighs in my favour.

Business, of course, is important but small business is a part of the total economy and the total society and its needs and rights, if you like, have to be balanced out against those of other groups in the.community. I think the notion of human behaviour as tied only, or even primarily to economic concerns, is a simplis­ tic notion. I think people are very much affected by the larger swings or by just inadequate income where they can't get access to the necessities of life. But, I think a good argument can be made for increases in the cost of some items.

There is in the whole tax question, as I'm sure the members opposite don't need me to explain to them, there are a package of things that can be done. One can be quite selective so that the net impact on a group is measured. I think that you'll find our approach is to see that the most vulner­ able or hard up in this society are not worse hit than the rest of us and that the problems of small business will be dealt with sympathetically but they'll be set in the context, in perspective. MR. JOHN STON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister says that the increase in taxes is to provide for Manit­ obans to have the social amenities that she mentioned. MR. CHAIRM AN: Point of order. Minister of Natural Resources. HON. AL MACKL ING (St. Ja mes) : I heard the obser- vations that the Member for Sturgeon Creek was mak­ ing. I was under the impression that we're dealing with the Minister of Finance's Estimates. The Estimate that we have before us deals with the Minister of Tourism and Economics and the line has nothing to do with taxation.

We've been listening to questions dealing with hypothetical changes in tax and how that possi­ ble would effect small business. Now, we don't have before us the Estimates of the Department of Finance and I suggest that this kind of dialogue, although it may be very interesting, is not in order in respect to these Estimates. MR. JOHNST ON: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order. If the Honourable Minister had taken the time to read the item we're on he would see it's (c), Small Enterprise Development provides services and sup­ ports to small business through consulting assistance and incentive programs.

If there is to be more tax, as has been indicated by the First Minister, and I can that our concern is for the advancement of small business in the Province of Manitoba that is going to be sup­ porting hopefully some of the programs that the pres­ ent government is thinking of, such as maybe ManOil in the southwestern part of Manitoba, I would hope that there has been consideration taken that the busi­ nesses in the Province of Manitoba will benefit from it instead of the businesses in Saskatchewan.

So, I submit that the item of increased taxes, or possible increased taxes, in Manitoba that would affect our small businesses in that area is very much part of this discussion. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert on that same point of order. MR. G.W.J . (Jer ry) MERCIER (St. Norbert): The topic is small business development, the Premier of this Province has on a couple of occasions at least, warned Manitobans about increasing tax rates and we on this side are very concerned with the adverse affects of an increase in sales tax, not only on the consumer but on small business development in this province.

I would ask you, Mr. Chairman, to rule these questions in order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Radisson on that same point of order. MR. GERARD LECUYER (Radisson): I can go along as much the Member for St. Norbert mentions, I think that, having voiced that concern we should move on to some other area in the discussion of this particular topic.

I sat here this afternoon and I heard discussion on the valley dykes which I heard under three Minis­ ter's Estimates now and I don't know what it has to do with this-particular line in the Estimates and I feel that, the Minister having expressed the reaction to the concerns raised, we should now move along. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek on the point of order. 1765 MR. JOHNSTO N: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order, I respect the honourable member's concern that maybe we're talking about dykes, but Mr. Chair-

- -- Thursday, 22 April, 1982 man, I guess 1 am called the critic for Economic Development and I will ask some of the questions that I believe should be asked. I would submit that the members that asked about the dykes in Southern Manitoba today were asking questions on the basis that they were concerned about what affect signs saying "This is a Flood Area" would have on small business. I assure you, Mr. Chairman, that in this Legislature, any member has the right or should have the right to bring up his concerns about something that is important to him and to his constituents.

I would hope, and I will assure the Chairman and say this to him, I personally would not ask any of the members of our caucus to hold back asking questions that are of concern to them as far as their constituen­ cies are concerned. MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe we've had a fairly wide­ ranging debate in this department up to now and I think that some of these topics, whether it be flood control or taxes, tend to stray a bit from the topic.

I would hope that people would relate their concerns a little bit closer to the items which are being discussed, and if taxation should come up again I would think it perhaps would be just as appropriate in the Estimates of the Department of Finance or during the Budget debate as here, unless it can be related specifically to a concern in a specific line of the Estimates. The Member for Swan River. MR. D.M. (Do ug) GOUR LAY (Swan River) : Mr.

Chairman, I represent the constituency, the Town of Swan River, which is only some 20 miles from the Saskatchewan border, and I think that an increase in the sales tax in this province certainly directly affects the amount of business and tourist activity that we would get from the Province of Saskatchewan. Right now we have serious competition from the City of Yorkton. A lot of people from my constituency shop in Yorkton, we do have a good shopping centre in Swan River and we haven't suffered all that much to this point in time.

But with the 2 percent or 1 percent or whatever it might be increase in sales tax, I think that you can appreciate that this is going to have a very serious effect particularly in the economic situation we're in at the present time. I think it has a lot to do with thisl think it has a lot to do with this

part in the Estimates whether this increase comes to be or not and I think it will have serious effect on our economic situation in, not only the Swan River constituency but in Roblin, which is closer to the Saskatchewan border, Virden, Melita, The Pas, Flin Flon and certainly I don't see how you can curtail discussion on this topic when we're dealing with ari important item such as increase in taxes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, is the Member for Swan River speaking to a point of order or to the Minister? MR. GOURL AY: Point of order. MR. JOHNSTO N: Well, Mr.

Chairman, to just follow what I wanted to say on this particular item, is that very often the reason for increased taxes is for the social programs that the government may want to 1766 support and roads as the Minister has said. I repeat, and I show a concern that there has not been a lot of study done on the basis of you may gain by the increase in taxes from Manitobans but we will lose considerably by having money spent in another pro­ vince.

We will lose probably more tax revenue than we'll gain if there is not a careful study made of it to make sure that Saskatchewan won't benefit more from a tax increase in Manitoba than Manitobans do. MRS. SMITH: Well, Mr. Chairperson, I've perhaps been more tolerant than some of my colleagues about the wide-rangingness of the questions and the debate. I've done it for a very specific reason. I think the reason that I will give will give you some understand­ ing of why I am also answering the questions the way I am. I am a Minister of Economic Development and Tourism but I'm also a member of a government.

I'm a member of a government that has a philosophy and an integrated approach in program. Consequently, when I look at measures which will benefit or harm a business sector or tourism I have to relate those con­ cerns to what happens to all the other groups and the other departments of our government. The well-being of small business, in my opinion and that of my government, cannot be looked at in isolation from these other factors.

I've spent a lot of years shopping; I have raised a bundle of kids; I've spent a lot of time in cars, driving different places and trying to keep my eye on all of them and buy the necessities and a few extras and I know a lot of the decisions we used to make about where we would go to shop wasn't the cent or two difference in cost, it was what was close to the friends we wanted to visit or our grandparents. It had to do with perhaps the cost of fuel if it was going to be a drive over the border. If I were up in Swan River or across the border from Swan it might depend on whether the Fair was on that weekend.

There are many factors that go into peo­ ple's decisions about where to shop and how much to buy. I wouldn't have felt guilty as a homemaker if I occ asionally decided not to spend my money in the small shops or small businesses, but to put it away, save it or invest it for the future, or to ·allocate it for some other purpose, perhaps save it to the Christmas season. I suspect a lot of Manitobans do that. I was interested to note the very very high retail trade figures that came out of Manitoba at the end of December last year.

I mean, I could have said, well, it's because of the great enthusiasm and optimism at the electoral victory, but I prefer to think that it represent­ ed the bubble of high expenditure that tends to go along with the Christmas season. But families use many, many factors in their decisions about where to shop and I'm sympathetic to the particular marketing business problems of the people in Swan River and along the Saskatchewan-Manitoba border, but I'm also concerned about what's going on for the people in the rest of the province.

I think studies we do, we do compare what's being done in other provinces so that if we make decisions that put us ahead, behind or on a par with other provinces, we do it knowingly and we've thought out the pros and cons. But choices like that aren't simple. Now I know there's disagreement as to whether this

Thursday, 22 Apri l, 1982 is relevant to the question of small business develop­ ment. With due respect to the members opposite, I would be pleased if they felt that we've covered this subject quite thoroughly, that we've probably arrived at an impasse. You set your priorities in how you would allocate mo ney or make decisio ns and I and my colleagues set ours. I thi nk I've been patient in givi ng you the underlyi ng assumptio ns and the backg round of our approach. I don't know that we're goi ng to persuade one another over the table here tonight.

I would suggest that we move on and focus specifically on the items in the Estimates. MR. CHAIR MAN: 2. (c)( 1) . The Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERC IER: Mr. Chairma n, the Mi nister has go ne around the mulberry bush on this question. She is the Minister of Economic Developme nt and she is the Minister responsible on this item for small business development. Is she, in carryi ng out these responsibil­ ities and these duties, supportive of an increase in the sai.es tax or will she oppose an increase in the sales tax? MR. CHAIR MAN: Point of order for the Member of Ste. Rose. HON. A. R. (Pete) ADAM (Ste.

Rose): Mr. Chairma n, I thi nk that question is an abuse of the privilege of this Committee. The member has been here for a number of years and knows very well what he is aski ng is an abuse of the time of this Committee. It's a question that should be asked of the Mi nister of Financ e and to ask the Minister for an opini on, I believe, is in abuse and the honourable member should know better. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Member for Tuxedo on the same point of order. MR. GARY FILMON (Tuxedo): On that same poi nt of order, I thi nk it's extremely relevant.

The fact of the matter is that in looki ng at small business develop­ me nt in this provi nce, there are certain things that may serve to assist in the attracti ng of investme nt in small businesses and certain strategies and deci­ si ons, whether they be tax-related, whether they be the hydro rate freeze, whether they be any of those things can have a direct bearing and a severe impact on whether or not we can attract small business to this province.

And I thi nk it's both perti nent and relevant for the Mi nister to get on the record as to whether or not she thi nks that a measure such as a sales tax in crease will attract investme nt and stimulate the development of small business in this provi nce. I thi nk it's extremely relevant and she is not responsible in this Cabinet or in this government for anything else. She's not resp<:msible for taxation matters; she's responsible to ensure that the economic development strategy is the best possible one that we can put for­ ward in this province.

She doesn't need to take responsibility for coveri ng somebody else's needs and co ncerns in this . She's a member of a team and she has to act as a member of a team, but she also has to ensure that she's holdi ng up her position in the team as well as possible and that's why I think that question ought to be answered. MR. MAC KL ING: Mr. Chairma n, speaking to this poi nt of order, the members of the Opposition are aski ng questio ns, forci ng debate on issues that are related but they're not germa ne to the Estimates under review.

They know there is ample opportunity to debate the whole question of taxation and its effect not only on small business, but on anyone. You can relate tax to any department. In the Departme nt of Natural Resources, I presume, you could have asked questio ns -( Interjectio n)- oh yes, about resource taxation. But ttiere is a time for discussion about tax matters and that is when the Budget is brought forward and there are eight days provided in the Legislative Assembly for discussion on Budget, and there is time during the Estimates of the Department of Financ e to discuss fiscal matters.

It's an abuse of the privileges of this House and the members of this House to try indirectly to discuss taxation policy during the course of the Estimates of a line departme nt. Out of fair ness, out of a consideration to be ge ner­ ous in answeri ng questio ns, Ministers have answered those ki nd of questions and I sat here and heard that. If the honourable members persist, then certai nly the Chairman may say, well, it's fair enough to let it go on.

But I want to record that I thi nk it's an abuse and the honourable members are taking advantage of a decent Minister who's tryi ng to be fair and provide answers, but is an abuse of this House and it'll be established then as a precedent that will haunt them. MRS. SMITH: Well, Mr. Chairperso n, I can accept that the members opposite, when they ran a govern­ me nt, somehow must have thought of themselves as bei ng Ministers in water-tight boxes, and the only time they would come out of the box was when they would go to Cabinet and they would scrap for the best deal for their box or the people in their box.

Then they would retreat and go back and operate in isolatio n. 1767 I don't conceive of my Ministry that way. I certainly don't function that way in the Cabinet and nor do any of my colleagues. We make the best case for the difficulties and the opportunities, the needs of the particular group that we represent in our department and then we listen to one another. Because we have an integrated philosophy where people's social needs, all the people's social needs, and their economic needs are taken into account, what we come up with is what we think is the fairest and best system of all.

We see economic strategy differently, not in this simplis­ tic and separate way that the members opposite do. I can see their frustration with how we look at the world, but we do look at the world differently and I, for one, would never look at one tax and say, am I for it or am I against it. I would want to look at the total situa­ tio n. What's the in come level? What are the needs of that group of people? What are the other taxes they have? What is the package of things that we're putting forward? What's the impact on the daily lives of these groups of people? Then I would make my decisio n.

So to say whether one's for or against a sales tax in isolatio n, to me is a rather irrelevant question.

I I • Thursday, 22 April, 1982 MR. CHAIR MAN: The Member for Pembina on the same point of order. HON. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): Mr. Chair­ man, on the same point of order, I want to tell the Minister that my glasses are pink-tinted. I don't happen to accept her assessment of our Cabinet members being holed up in little watertight boxes, as she said. She indicated in her reply that it's a team approach. I think it is most relevant tonight when we have an

article here on the problems that Fargo and Moorhead had where Moorhead is suffering greatly. Their business community is suffering greatly because of a 2 percent differential in retail tax across a State border; that same problem will be part of Manitoba's economy and the problems of that economy on the west side of our province when this government brings in a 2 percent sales tax increase, or maybe it's a 3 percent sales tax increase. It is extremely important that we have a handle in this province. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I believe the Member for Pembina is debating the issue. MR.

ORCHA RD: No, I'm making a Point of Order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Could you come to the point please? MR. ORCHA RD: Yes, I will come to the point, Mr. Chairman.

I think it is extremely important that, when we're discussing the Estimates of the Minister of Eco­ nomic Development, because it's economic devel­ opment in this Province that's going to provide the revenues to government to create this world of equal­ ity the Minister so desires to provide the social benefit funding that this Minister so desires and we want to know what her reaction is to a sales tax increase that's being proposed by her own First Minister. It is extremely important to the business community and the viability of the business community of Manitoba, the jobs in it . . . MR.

CHAIR MAN: Order please. Could you relate your comments to the specific Point of Order, whether or not tax is relevant to this particular

section of the Estimates. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I thought I had been; that it's very relevant to economic development in the Province of Manitoba. Economic development is the only source of tax revenue. We want to know what this Minister believes will happen to the business climate, particularly on the west side, when her government, her First Minister. brings in tax measures that are going to increase the sales tax differential to 2 or 3 percent above a neighbouring province. I think it is extremely important that we find that out. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood ): Mr.

Chairman, it's quite clear that this is a hypothetical debate and that this is in anticipation of changes in the Budget. Nobody around this table knows for sure which taxes are being brought in; what the percentages are; whether there are going to be changes in the sales tax, income tax, property taxes or any other taxes; and certainly the Members of the Opposition haven't the faintest clue. To get all excited about what may occur, if in the event there will be a change in such and such taxes, is just absolutely and purely hypothetical. The debate is out of order. We could debate a lot of inter­ esting questions.

We could debate questions of what would happen if there was a third world war over the Falkland Islands or what would happen if Tina Turner came into this committee room now and started doing her act. I simply say, Mr. Chairman, that this is clearly, without question, a hypothetical question which the opposition is raising; it's out of order and it shouldn't be allowed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. JOHNSTO N: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order. I would first of all like to compliment the Minis­ ter on the answers that she has given to date in this Committee.

I know the debate has been far-reaching and we have had statements from her that gives the philosophy of the party and I agree with her that it's not going to be in agreement on this side. The point that I brought up before, I brought it up the other day, that I felt sorry for the Minister and all of the Ministers of this present government to have to defend irresponsible promises made by their First Minister. I also say, Mr.

Chairman, that I would say that the First Minister wasn't talking about a war in the Falkland Islands; he wasn't talking about United States taking over Canada; he sat on television and he has said, on several occasions, that there is a possibil­ ity of the sales tax being raised in this province. Mr. Chairman, if the First Minister knew anything about his job he wouldn't have talked about any part of the Budget ahead of time anyway. The fact is, he did, and it put this Minister in this position. Now I believe that we should be able to continue it and I might say, Mr.

Chairman, we might have been moved on by now if it hadn't been for the Minister of Resources who comes in with his chippy attitude to change the situation of a good relationship in this Committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: I wouldn't want to rule the discus­ sion of taxes out of order. I think we might make a bit more progress, at least proceed at a more rapid rate, if questions were more direct and more specific to the line items under consideration. 1768 The Member for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FIL MON (Tuxedo): Mr. Chairman, in that case, I wonder, earlier in the Estimates debate - (I nterjectio n)- Sorry, did the Member for St.

Norbert .. . MR. G.W.J. (Gerry) MERC IER, (St. Norbert): You've ruled the question in order? Could I have an answer to the question. - MR. CHAIR MAN: I have not ruled it out of order. I'm just cautioning and hoping that people will restrict their comments a bit more precisely to the line items in the Estimates.

Thursday, 22 April, 1982 MR. ME RCIER: Well, in view of the fact that it's not ruled out of order, Mr. Chairman, I would like an answer to it. MR. CHAIRMAN: An answer to the question, would you repeat your question? MR. MER CIER: The question was, does the Minister, in her capacity as Minister of Economic Development, responsible in this particular area for small business development, is she supportive of an increase in the sales tax or will she oppose an increase in the sales tax? MR. CHAIR MAN: I believe that one is out of order. That would be a breach of Cabinet's privilege. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, then I would challenge your ruling. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the ruling of the Chair sus­ tained? All those in favor say Aye? All those opposed say Nay? The Ayes have it. MR. MERCIER : A recorded vote, Mr. Chairman. A COU NTED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas, 7; Nays, 6 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Ayes have it. MR. MERCIER : The vote has to be taken in the Com­ mittee of the Whole. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR.

JOH NSTON: With all due respect to the Chair, I would like to suggest that when a recorded vote is called in Committee the vote is taken, recorded as a Committee of the Whole and we go into the House and vote and I would caution the Chairman to please check the rules on that point. MR. CHAIRMAN: If the Member for Sturgeon Creek will wait a minute we will check the rules. Order please. I believe the correct procedure is that we have a voice vote and then a formal count in this room, if requested, and then a voice vote and a formal count in the House. MR.

JOHNS TON: I request a voice vote and formal count in the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the member have support? (Agreed) Call in the members. (Adjournment to the House for a formal count of the Whole House) MR. CHAIRMAN: The item under consideration is 2. (c)

(1) Small Enterprise Development, Salaries. The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the item reads "pro­ vides services and support to small business through consulting assistance and incentive programs ." I wonder if the Minister could outline any specific incentive programs for small business? MR. CHAIRMAN: Madam Minister. MRS. SM ITH: Mr. Chairperson, under the Enterprise Manitoba Program we have the RSEI Grants. the Rural Small Enterprise Initiative Grants. These are for businesses expanding or modernizing. MR. JOHNS TON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister has mentioned the RSE I Program which is in the next item. I'm aware that the small enterprise development group do administer part of the program and part of those salaries that are paid to the personnel in this particular department are supported by the Canada­ Manitoba Agreement but, in other words, the incen­ tive program referred to is the one that has been in place for well, four years since the agreement, is the one that's being referred to, there are no others? MR S. SMITH: Well, I guess it depends a lot, Mr. Chairperson, on the definition of incentive.

There are things like management counselling that's available which is publicly subsidized because it is an expendi­ ture and it is an encouragement to small businesses to acquire the management skills that will enable them to perform better. It's an incentive of a different sort than a straight money grant. MR. JOHNS TON: Well, that's fine, Mr. Chairman, I was just trying to get straight in my mind the words "consulting assistance" is what the Minister spoke of and that the words "and incentive programs ," I was interested in but, if it refers to the RSE I Program, I'm aware of that program. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2. (c) (1) -pass; 2. (c) (2) -pass; 2. (d)(1) . Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. JOHNS TON: Mr. Chairman, I asked when we started these Estimates if we would be provided when we came to this

section a rundown of the six sections of the Canada-Manitoba Agreement and the funds that would be allotted to each

section this year. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, I do have some forms for distribution. The seven programs are Industrial Development, Community Development, the Bran­ don Enterprise Development Centre, the Winnipeg Enterprise Development Centre, the Industrial Com­ mercial Promotion Co-ordination and Assessment. the Rural Small Enterprise Incentive Program and the Industrial Infrastructure Program ..

There are also, under the Enterprise Manitoba, two additional pro­ grams; the Manitoba Research Council which has two technological centres connected with it, one that's industrial technology and the other food products development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister, I believe two days ago, mentioned that there was some studies 1769

I I • Thursday, 22 April, 1982 going on with companies within the aerospace indus­ try on feasibility of the advancement or the enlarge­ ment of the aerospace industry. Are there any other industrial development studies going on at the pres­ ent time? I'm not asking the Minister to go through a complete list of them, she could probably supply that to me at another time, but any major studies in the industrial development area. MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, there are about eight such studies going on and the particular clients are confidential at this time. MR. JOHNSTO N: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister mentioned I believe three the other day. Is she saying - I believe it was three- the other five are confidential? MRS. SMITH: Yes. MR. JOHNSTO N: Has there been an effort made to do more studies in the Province of Manitoba with companies who are interested in coming here, or with companies that are presently here, from the point of view that the studies are probably the most important thing that we can do at this time to make sure that the businesses that come have had thorough examina­ tion and that they will be viable in Manitoba?

Is there an effort being made to do more studies so that we will not have a situation of bankruptcies or receiverships in the future with businesses that develop in the province? · MRS. SMIT H: Mr. Chairperson, the feasibility study is a high priority of the program and I'm sure the honourable member well knows the components of those studies; they are very thorough. I think the only caution that we all must keep in mind is that we can study a company within the not, only normal parame­ ters but a fairly wide range of economic fluctation, but we couldn't guard against complete economic disas­ ter in the country.

We're in very depressed economic times now . Naturally, looking at new firms coming here we'd be able to take the current situation and up or down several points into the future but we couldn't guard against complete economic disaster. I'm sure the member realizes that. MR. JO HNSTO N: Have there been any additional community development studies being done with communities in the province? MRS . S MITH: Mr. Chairperson, there were eight communities that were studied or involved in projects in the 1981-82 year.

Some of those projects are being completed now and we do respond to requests from additional communities. I hope to have in place dur­ ing the year an increased capacity to reach out to communities and identify the kind of program that is available to them. MR. JOHNSTO N: Have the communities, the eight that we're speaking of, have they elected to go through all three stages of the program? MR S. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, I wonder if the m ember putting the question would care to clarify what he means by all stages of the program. MR.

JO HNSTO N: If my memory serves me correctly, they would make application for the program and we would go in and explain the whole program to them and there was basically three stages to the program. I would say that I believe some of them were in the second stage and if they had elected to carry on to complete the program I ... MRS. SMITH: Of the group of eight, I have informa­ tion about four who have completed stage two and three, and two that are partly stage two and partly stage three. The other two, I guess, are completed. MR. JOHNSTO N: Mr.

Chairman, the third item on the agreement MAC, the Canadian Food Products Devel­ opment in Portage la Prairie. There was fairly large expenditures made to the extension of the building and the purchasing of the equipment. Is the activity in this particular area expanding or, in other words, has there been an outreach program to the food industry in the Province of Manitoba to let them know that the Portage Centre is there and to assist them in develop­ ing products out of Manitoba-grown produce?

One of the problems we were finding is that it had just been opened a short while but the processors of food pro­ ducts in Manitoba weren't aware as they should be of the facilities that are in Portage la Prairie, and I know that there were discussion to find some way to make it more available to the Manitoba processors. Has that been done? MRS. SMITH: Yes, to the end of March 31, 1982, Mr. Chairperson, there was a survey conducted with 100 firms in the food industry and that was to assess what their analytical testing requirements were. The survey also promoted the program of the Food Centre.

In addition there were two seminars held at the Centre on sanitation and on quality control, both of which were very well attended. For the current year the goals of the Centre are on target in terms of activity. There is an expanding amount of activity and at the moment we are exceeding our revenue target. We're attempt­ ing to target our activity there more closely to what is marketable and also to increase the revenue that comes back to the Centre. 1770 MR. JOHNSTO N: Can the Minister inform us how many personnel there are in that Centre at the present time. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chairperson, the staff complement is at 1 O at present. MR. JOHNSTO N: The Technology Centre is one that - well, I guess I could say that I've viewed and the previous government viewed - is one that would be of assistance to the manufacturers in the Province of Manitoba. It wouldn't be regarded as a place where research would be done, but it would be a place where companies who didn't have the funds available to them to set up their own particular type of testing and research, etc. , or didn't have available to them the Ii brary and the technologies and the facilities of those eight labs out there.

Is that the direction the Tech •

Thursday, 22 Apri l, 1982 Centre is taking at the present time? Is the Technol­ ogy Centre working in that way and I might say, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, there was towards the end of last year, a presentation made to myself from the Board of the Tech Centre as to the direction that they should be taking. I wonder if the direction that has been decided upon is one of assistance in technology and not research? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, the member is quite right that the sharpened focus of both the Tech Cen­ tres is to deal with the application of up-to-date tech­ nology to actual production situations.

As well, it's a technological problem-solving centre for manufac­ turers, for food processors and the pure research is considered to be a responsibility of the univerisities or institutes. MR. JOHNSTO N: I wonder if the Minister could tell me here - I left it until this point specifically I think the answer could be given here - if the National Research Council is still moving along with their intentions to build a facility in Manitoba. MRS. SMIT H: Mr.

Chairperson, we don't have any word of a decision, we've made our input to show that we're interested and support our bid for that centre to locate in Winnipeg but as yet there's been no decision in Ottawa. MR. JOHN STON: Mr.

Chairman, I'm referring to the National Research Centre where there was a report done by a group from Manitoba and the National Research Centre, the report was submitted to the Federal Minister and at one time it was moving through Treasury Board in the Federal Government and there was a specific recommendation that there should be one built in Manitoba and at that time it was then referred to, I believe, possibly being put in the core area under the Core Area Program. Is it still intended to be part of the Core Area Pr'!gram? MRS. SMIT H: Mr.

Chairperson, I think this is a ques­ tion that we've dealt with in the House. The recom­ mendation that Winnipeg would be a good location for a National Research Manufacturing Technology Centre, in the report a recommendation has been made, but decisions on buildings or centres such as this are made in a political way by the Federal Cabinet and that means, I would suspect that there are several other competing areas that would also like to have such a centre.

We have gone out of our way when we meet with Federal Ministers or Federal Respresentatives to keep the issue very much alive, leave no mistake in their minds that we would be very appreciative of having that centre located here, that we think it would fit well with our plans for development in the manufacturing area. I think we must recognize that that decision being a political choice at the Federal Cabinet level, that they will be interested in what a report recommends but that they will make their decision with many many factors in mind.

All we can do is I think, increase both the logic of our presentation or the frequency of it and do what we can to make it effective. 1771 MR. JOHNSTO N: Mr. Chairman, I didn't want to bring this in and I won't because it doesn't fit here. The Minister, I think, when she refers to the questions in the House that I was asking specifically of her and the Minister of Labour, had to do with the Aerospace Technology Training Centre which was a report commissioned by Mr.

Axworthy by a group of people in the Aerospace industry which was led by General McKenzie, or who was General McKenzie, to make a report to him on where to put the Aerospace Technol­ ogy Training Centre and it was recommended that it come to Manitoba. Since that time we've had prob­ lems with the Federal members from Quebec and I've been asking if it's going to come to Manitoba and the Minister has said there is not any decisions on that at the present time.

I'm referring to the National Research Council of Canada who came and worked with the officials from Manitoba to have a National Research Council estab­ lishment in the Province of Manitoba that would employ approximately 120 people or better and I believe the report stated that the Province of Mani­ toba would supply approximately 20 of the personnel to it but it would be operated as a National Research Council Centre as there is one in other parts of Canada. The last discussions I had with the Federal Minister, Mr.

Gray, regarding that as to the possibility of it being there, was that he was looking at Manitoba and possibly one other. But there was a definite recom­ mendation it come to Manitoba and there was a recommendation by the Minister of Manpower from Manitoba that it be part of the core area plan and I'm referring specifically to the National Research Coun­ cil one. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, I apologize for con­ fusing the two but the process for decision-making at the federal level is somewhat similar. There is the Aerospace Training Centre issue. There is also this Manufacturing Technology Centre.

The same answer in a sense is appropriate, that we have made verbal and written representations to the Federal Ministers and we understand that it's now a decision that is made in the Federal Cabinet where they must decide whether, in fact, this will be an expenditure that they commit themselves to and if so, whether they put it here or elsewhere or, in fact, split it in two. We under­ stand that the quiet negotiation route is the approp­ riate one on such a project. MR. JOHNSTO N: Is it the intention of the Manitoba Government to supply the personnel that is recom­ mended in the report if it comes to Manitoba?

In other words, are we saying we want it in Manitoba on the basis of the recommendations of the report which would mean Manitoba would be supplying 20 per­ sonnel to work in that establishment? MRS . SMITH: Well, Mr. Chairperson, our interest in having such a centre here is strong. The question of a specific agreement and delegation of responsibility would be at a later stage but it's not something we can prejudge. Our interest in manufacturing technology is high. It has a very important role to play in helping our local manufacturing modernize, become more

• I • Thursday, 22 April, 1982 productive and stand some kind of competitive chance in that highly volatile and fast-growing field. So I would think it would be a high priority expenditure for us but it's quite premature for me to make any specific commitment. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Min­ ister could give us the figure on the number of people working at the Tech. Centre now? MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, there are 18 full­ time and 10 part-time. MR. JOHNSTO N: Did she say 10 part-time? MRS. SMITH: Yes. MR. JOHNSTO N: Mr.

Chairman, is the Brandon EDC presently full or has it got some capacity to take in some more small manufacturers with potential? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, at the Centre, the last report I had indicated that there were eight advanced factory space tenants. MR. JOHN STON: Mr. Chairman, I should know but, is there room for more? Is it full? MRS. SMITH: Yes, it's full, Mr. Chairperson. MR.

JOHNSTO N: In the EDC the program was to hopefully be able to turn - I guess turn them loose is a wrong expression - but to provide accommodation to these companies at a lower rate of rent until they got on their feet and operating properly, but the intent was to try to stay as close to two years as possible to be in those centres. Are we now getting to the point where there are some companies who would be ready to be asked to leave because they're on their feet and make room for others? MRS. SMIT H: Mr. Chairperson, the honourable member is quite right that there have been a couple of graduates. MR.

JOHNSTO N: And you are sticking, hopefully - and I know it's not possible to be completely accurate - to two years and then you should know whether they're going to make it or not. MRS . SMITH: Yes, that's the usual time frame. If they're ready ahead of time, fine. They go in at no rental for the first period of time and then a gradually increased rental. MR. JOHNSTON: The Winnipeg EDC operates the same way. Is it full at the present time? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, the Winnipeg EDC does operate in a similar fashion. It is currently 100- percent occupied. It has 11 modules in all.

Six com­ panies have graduated and all of them are still in business and some are doing exceptionally well. MR. JOHNSTON: Great. I can tell you the guy in Brandon that makes golf clubs makes good golf clubs 1772 -( Interjection )- he built a club that got rid of my sli ce. This is the promotion of the Enterprise Develop­ ment Program. Am I correct? MFIS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, due to our unruly col­ leagues I didn't get the first part of the sentence. MR. JOHNSTON: Well, I might say they weren't as unruly as they were before, Mr. Chairman.

The Industrial Com Promo, this is the promotion part of the Enterprise Manitoba Program? MR S. SMITH: Yes, this is the component through which we fund the Regional Development Corpora­ tions in the regions; they're the local organizations that assist in identifying industrial and commercial opportunities in the regions. MR. JOHN STON: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Min­ ister could give us the amount of money being paid to the Regional Development Corporations, because in the Speech from the Throne and I believe in her open­ ing remarks, there was an indication that there would be more funding to Regional Development. Now, it might be in the Estimates under Regional Benefits but can she give me the amount of money each Regional Development Corporation will receive this year? MR S. SMIT H: Mr. Chairperson, the honourable m ember is quite right. We did announce an increased funding and also a review of the Regional Develop­ m ent Corporations.

We are meeting with them in about 10 days to announce the increase and to dis­ cuss with them the terms of the review. The increase will be for th is year only in the form that we're propos­ ing. The future form of funding will be determined as a result of the review process. We're finding that as some of the regions are quite active and they do find themselves strapped sometimes. The more active ones find that the levels of expecta­ tion of all the municipal members go up.

They some­ times end up in a Catch 22 unless they can provide the same level of increased service to a municipality; that municipality might not join and yet if they don't join they don't have the revenue to perform the service. So, we want to look at varieties of ways of funding them because we think developing this type of capac­ ity in the individual communities is a very important part of economic development. That's often where the initial developments of a small processing or manu­ facturing industry can get going. The local people often provide the idea and the labour force.

They may require some help with the management, the financ­ ing and the marketing. We've been delighted to see some real success stories coming out of the regions. At the same time we recognize that each region is quite different and therefore, we're going propose a m ore flexible approach to membership, to boundaries and to funding. MR. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, the funding appears here to be the same as it was last year. The Minister has said there's going to be an increase. Where does the increase show in the Estimates?

Thursday, 22 April, 1982 MRS. SMITH: Just a minute. Mr. Chairperson, the actual amount that appears in the Budget for last year was not spent; in fact, the expenditure level was closer to 280. We have proposed increases that take us up in the 380 region for this year and that gives us another $120 to assist with the study and any contingencies that might arise during the year. MR. JOHNS TON: The study is going to cost $120,000? MRS. SMIT H: Well, Mr. Chairperson, no. We have flexibility in this budget because our intent was to look at the ADC system and start to move towards improvement.

It may if we can get agreement from the groups that we may be able to initiate somewhat richer funding before the end of the year. It would fall within the general purpose of the industrial and com­ mercial promotion in the Enterprise Manitoba area. If the study is not complete and we're not ready to fund on a new basis before the end of the fiscal year, we will just let that money lapse for that year. The money in the Enterprise Manitoba Agreement doesn't lapse year by year in the way the provincial monies nor­ mally do.

There's a total amount of money in the agreement and we have some flexibility in terms of just when we spend it. MR. JOHNS TON : Will all the RDC's receive the same amount of money? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, there will be an iden­ tical base amount and then there will be an additional amount for Parklands North and the Northlands on the basis of their travel requirements. NorMan, par­ don me. MR. JOHNS TON: Well, in other words it hasn't changed. They will all receive the same amount of money. Parklands used to receive an extra amount of money and NorMan did for travelling expenses, if I'm not mistaken. MRS.

SMIT H: Well, Mr. Chairperson, the pattern is the same, but we will consider some flexibility during the year. We're not proposing it at the beginning. MR. JOHNS TON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest that we were looking at a situation of the Regional Development Corporation, because it hasn't changed, I believe, since 1972 and certainly there were some boundary problems which were brought to our attention by Parklands, and I think that should be looked at, but as far as the funding is concerned, I think that it should be very carefully watched that one does not receive more than the other.

I know that Parklands had made requests for more money on the basis of their geographical situation, but I can assure you that their shortage of funds was not basically for that reason. They were not having the towns and municipalities in the area join; in fact, they were leav­ ing. And I would say that probably the reason for that was they have the most incompetent manager of the bunch. I would suggest that the directions to the Regional Development Corporations be one of not doing the research that is capable of being done by the depart- ment, but working more closely with the communities to develop them. MRS.

SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, I believe that there's an appropriate time and place to discuss the strengths or weaknesses of staff and I don't intend to use this time to evaluate the staff of our Regional Develop­ ment centres. We are going to be carrying out a tho­ rough review and study, and develop a different approach and I think that the issues that have been raised by the honourable member are better looked at in that context. MR. JOHNSTON: The co-ordination and assess­ ments; there was one done on ASEi and I know there was one being started on another. How many assessments of the program are ongoing right now?

MRS. SMITH: Yes, evaluations are required in each program by the total agreement. The ASEi evaluation is complete; the industrial infrastructure one is almost complete. We have it, but it hasn't passed through OREE as yet. The contract for evaluating the Tech Centres has just been let, and the consultants to carry out the evaluation of the Enterprise Development Centres, are just being selected at the present time and the final project, the industrial sectors, the terms of reference of the evaluation are being established at present. MR.

JOH NSTON: On the ASEi Program to the end of September, 1981, there had been a total of 128 new companies established under the ASEi Program, small enterprise in rural Manitoba, and 62 companies that had received funding for expansion, for a total of 180 with the creation of what was estimated to be 620 jobs. Can the Minister tell me how many new ones have been approved since that time or approximately how many have been approved? MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chairperson, as of March 31st, 1982, we've received 419 applications; made 228 offers of which 207 have been accepted, 19 declined; 135 applications were rejected and 44 applications were withdrawn. The total of number of jobs pro­ jected under the program is 675 for that year and the total capital investment projected from the programs that were approved is $9,535,000.00. So that is cumul­ ative for the total program, not just for the preceding year. MR. JOH NSTON: Well, that would appear to be 27 additional. But, Mr. Chairman, those are very impres­ sive figures.

I wonder if the First Minister still wants to call this a useless program? The program obviously has created a lot of employment in rural Manitoba. In 1977, there were 334 businesses in the province in rural Manitoba; 363 in '78; 453 in '79, and 519 in 1980. 1 don't know the figure for '81, but those figures have been moving up, but basically because of this pro­ gram and I might say the excellent work of the staff that handles this program and for somebody to say irresponsibly that it's not a good program or is no good, should rethink his words at the present time. 1773 Mr.

Chairman, on the Industrial Infrastructure Pro­ gram, the Minister has mentioned that the place the

Thursday, 22 April, 1982 province should ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. JO HNSTO N: Mr. Chairman, the Minis ter has suggested that having industry come to the province, we have to take into consideration there are other costs which could be infrastructure, and here we have a program that is designed to take care of infrastruc­ ture problems for the small towns and mu nicip alitie s in the province who have the initia tive to go out and promote their area to have industry come to it.

The reason why this program was suggested when the agreement was being negotiated, was that if they didn't have this type of support from the province and the Federal Government - which was what this pro­ gram is, a joi nt venture or joint funding - they would not be able to go out and impress anybody that their area was good and encourage them to come. This program is one that lets them go out and work at it very hard because they know they wil l not have to have a tax structure because of new industry that needs infrastructure, placed on the back of the tax­ payer of their area.

That was one of the reasons why a lot of commun itie s were not as aggress ive as they are at the present tim e to encourage industry. The Minis ter says that there is a necess ity for infras­ tructure when companies come to Manitoba and here we have a program that does just exactly that. I would suggest that the infrastructure that was placed in the seed plant in Harrowby was one of the reasons why we had the co-operation wit h the mu nicip alit y of Rus­ sell to work very hard to get that established, other­ wis e they wouldn't have been as interested.

I would suggest that the infrastructure program was one that gave Morden the opportunity to work very hard to get 3M. I know it would have been a benefit for Shell to go to Brandon. Mr. Chairman, the Minis ter was say ing that these were problems when we attract industry and yet here we have a program to take care of those problems. Will the Minis ter be making presentation to the Federal Government to continue this program in a big way with even more funding? MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chairperson, the honourable member is quite right, that to be able to offer industrial infrastructure assi stance to a municip ality can really make the difference between them being able to accommodate a new industry and not. I have referred, in past comments, about the costs and benefits that need to be looked at when a new industry is com ing and I did refer to infrastructure costs. The industrial infrastructure is one component and social infras­ tructure of schools, housing, hospital care and so on are other components.

In terms of making representations to the Federal Government to enlarge this very im portant project we do have consi derable flexibilit y to move mon ies around within the program if one area is underspent and another has identif ied some opportunities and, as the programs come to a concl usion, there wil l be a fair amount of review and internal switching if that seems appropriate. I agree, it's one of the very interesting and excitin g projects of the total program. MR. JOHNSTO N: Mr.

Chairman, the Minis ter has 1774 mentioned previously in this Committee that there is intention for the government to look very seriously at where industries are located in the province.

With this program in place. which gi ves the commun ities the opportunity to go out and work very hard to attract the industries, knowing that they wil l have this infrastruc­ ture program to help them, and if an industry, after being shown a specific area by the development officers, decide to go there because of the presenta­ ti ons made by the town, is it the intention of the gov­ ernment not to approve the infrastructure program if they do not believe that industry should go to that area? MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chairperson, the role I think of government, in terms of location of an industry, is to negotiate wit h a company and understand what the needs of that industry are and what the options are available to them. I think I referred to taking a positiv e stance in negot iati ons. That mi ght mean that the gov­ ernment would have a preference for location but would not attempt, as is appropriate to any kin d of negot iatio n, to dictate. It's a question of, perhaps, ma kin g more of a pitch for one area than another.

The mu nic ipalitie s are not all equally strong in their abilit y to seek out opportunity; nor are they all equally strong in their abilit y to fund because, although this is an incentive program, it doesn't cover full costs. I think what our intention would be is just to throw a more active factor in, in terms of our negotiation, but not to play a role of enforcing. It's just if a different location made more sense, in terms of meet ing an unemploy­ ment need and didn't signifi cantly alter the econom ic sit uation for the company, then I think we would be prepared to negotiate fairly strongly.

If there was a clear econom ic argument and no real econom ic alternative for a company to locate in a place where the unemployment was perhaps more pressing, then I think we would use our good judgment and not push. We, after all, want industries that are viable that can sustain themselves. These programs are incentive ones only; they're not ongoing support programs. So I thi nk we wil l be very realistic and fair in our negotiations. MR.

JOHNSTON: The Minis ter has said she wil l approach it wit h caution but I think she would agree that if anybody had said to 3M that you have to go elsewhere, other than Morden, they would not have come to Manitoba, because Morden did an excep­ ti onally good job to convince them that it was the area to go in.

I think you would agree that when you have regional development corporations who are all work­ ing to develop their area and they do a job to convince somebody, that the government shouldn't change any one of those decisio ns because, if you do, you're only go ing to take the incentive away from those cor­ porations of trying as hard as they have been trying in the past. MRS. SMITH:- Mr.

Chairperson, my notion of nego­ tiatin g is that you start from a positio n of what you would most lik e to see result and you li sten to what the other party or parties would most lik e to see result and you work to the best possible consensus. It's not an either/or si tuation and I think there is a role for gov-

Thursda y, 22 April, 1982 ernment to identify the public good and I don't find anything at all contradictory in the position of saying that the government would marshal! all the reason­ able arguments it could in favor of a location where, perhaps, the unemployment was high. That might not be the determining factor but I think it should at least be thrown into the mix, thrown into the discussion. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Pembina. MR.

ORCHAR D: I'm certainly pleased to see the Min­ ister taking a somewhat different stance than what, on a couple of occasions, she indicated was a possible direction for the department and for her government in terms of economic development and the govern­ ment's influence on economic development in the province.

I refer specifically to a couple of opportuni­ ties the Minister has had to speak to, - if I might use the term - some of the movers and shakers Pembina Con­ stituency and the sister Constituency of Rhineland where there was some concern by the people who have worked very diligently and very hard on behalf of the province to attract some industries that are of pretty significant benefit to all of Manitoba, particu­ larly to the area they are located in, and I refer specifi­ cally to Tupperware as one and to 3M Company which just recently announced to locate in the province.

On a couple of previous occasions the Minister's indication in her speaking engagements was that clearly this government intended to take a quite active in determining where companies should locate. They were going to be the vehicle of economic decision and decide what area was going to be blessed with any new industry in the province. I must say that caused a certain amount of alarm amongst the people that have worked very, very hard to get industries to locate in their respective areas.

That kind of an appre­ hension on the behalf of those municipal people and development corporation people does very little to engender their enthusiasm to present Manitoba as a positive place to invest, to any company outside the bounds of this province who may be looking a number of locations in which to undertake new investment and new ventures. I'm pleased to see or hear tonight that the Minister isn't going to be as firm as what she may have alluded to on earlier occasions, as to her interference or her government's interference in where companies may potentially locate.

I think it's no accident that, for instance, both Tupperware and 3M have chosen to locate in Morden and in the corridor between Winkler and Morden. They located there, and particularly 3M as I understand it, their alternate location was Cowansville, Quebec, and they moved to Morden because they were very impressed with the area, with the workforce, with the attitude of the people there, with their very enthusiastic presentation of the bene­ fits of moving to southern Manitoba.

I don't think that there's anyone who would disagree in the Department of Economic Development that the Morden-Winkler area has arrived with a certain critical mass, if you · might call it that, of industrial development with an infrastructure there that makes it a prime location for future corporate locations for manufacturing, etc.

I repeat again, the officials that I talked to in the are who had listened to the Minister on a couple of occa­ sions were quite concerned whether the very many hours and weeks and months of work that they had collectively put in over the past four to five years to attract that critical mass of industry, might have been all for naught if the new government was going to decide that, for instance, the mining industry was too much a one-industry town in Flin Flon and Thompson and require someone like 3M to locate there to diver­ sify the employment because, I repeat, those major companies are in Southern Manitoba because of a very excellent selling job of the advantages of locat­ ing there.

If a government suddenly came on the scene that would not work in co-operation with those efforts and would re-direct those efforts to other places in the province, it was a most discouraging prospect for some of those people. I'm certainly pleased to nig ht that the Minister indicates that that's not the intention of hers, the Minister of Economic Development nor her government. MRS. SMITH: Yes, I think the problem seems to arise when someone suggests that government is going to be interested in, or involved in, or attempt to influ­ ence, that it is heard that the government is going to dictate.

I don't think that that's the concept that I've ever voiced, although I can understand a municipality that's been used to the idea of government being neutral would see any move into more active a stance as somehow threatening. I think the point that the honourable member raises about a critical mass of industry in a town is when it makes good economic sense and, as I said, when we're making a judgment those are the kind of issues that will weigh heavily. We are committed though, to taking a particular responsible attitude when there's public money being spent.

If it's a question quite simply of a company being sought by a municipality and it choosing to locate there, there is no need for any other level of government to be involved. However, when there is a question of larger expenditure, either help to the company or industrial infrastructure, required then it is a matter of public interest. If money is spent there it is not spent somewhere else and it would be irrespon­ sible of a public authority not to weigh the pros and cons.

Now, one of the economic problems that we have in Manitoba and in Canada is that if money decisions are left solely to marketplace factors, what we tend to get is resources and money draining out of the North land and the rural areas into first the town, and then the city. Winnipeg grows often at the expense of the north and the rural areas and in turn Winnipeg often loses out as larger cities to the west of us or to the east of us grow. We are committed, I guess, federally and pro­ vincially to trying to achieve a more balanced regional development and that's true both within Manitoba as well as within Canada.

The fact that development is occurring in Morden, and not all in Winnipeg or in Brandon or in Portage, depending where you want to look in the pecking order of sizes of cities I think makes good balanced regional development sense. I think the member need not be nervous that some­ how that area would not get a fair hearing. I think we all recognize the difficulty, if you like, of achieving 1775

• Thursday, 22 April, 1982 economic development in more remote areas but I guess I would put the question back to him - he needn't answer tonight but to think about. What is the future for the north part of Manitoba? Can some one­ industry towns be saved as their depletable resource disappears? Are there alternative economic activities which can develop there or should they be helped to be developed there or should we just leave it com­ pletely to the ups and downs of the market system? There is no simple answers to that. We don't have quick and simple answers.

As I said before, I've lived in three mining towns and two of them are now ghost towns, so I know there's no easy solution to that. But I think the question of the pattern of development and the trends are ones that we must look at, it would be irresponsbile of us not to look at them and to weigh that when we are negotiat­ ing with a firm that might come. But to think that because you are involved in that process somehow you're going to locate all of the companies in some uneconomic and remote area is carrying the concept to an extreme that we certainly don't intend and won't be following. I move Committee rise.

MR. CHAIR MAN: Committee rise SUPPLY - HE AL TH MR. CHAIRMAN, Je rry T. Storie (Flin Flon): The meeting will come to order. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. CHAIR MAN: Before we begin the proceedings, I'd like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery on my right where we have 21 students of Grade 5 standing of the 10 4th Cub Pack. These students are under the direction of Mr. Tweed and the group comes from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Tuxedo. I'd like to welcome you here on behalf of all the members. SUPPLY - HEA L TH (Cont'

d) MR. CHAIRMAN: Continuing with the Estimates of the Department of Health. Item No. 4, Mental Health Services, particularly Item No. 4. (d)(1) , Salaries. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERM AN (Fort Garr y): Mr. Chair­ man, the list of changes in SMYs, staffing comple­ ments, that the Minister gave me at the outset of his Estimates indicates that the department is requesting 12 additional staff man years in Institutional Mental Health Services. Could he tell the committee where those additional SMYs will be assigned? MR. DESJAR DINS: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, there'll be five nurses at the Brandon Mental Health Centre, the Norwood Gardens, the Psycho-G eriatric Ward at the northern extremity of the Centre complex was closed in October, 19 81, and the 76 residents moved to the main building; 52 to a new ward on the lower level of Parkland Building; and the remainder to new wards in 1776 Valleyview Building. Staff from Norway Gardens were transferred with the patients but to more adequately staffed two new wards in separate buildings we felt that five additional nurses were needed. Now, in Selkirk it's seven and that's all for the con­ tingency.

For the past number of years Selkirk Mental Health Centre had only 14 contingency staff man years for which to provide vacation and sick relief, one-to-one nursing when ordered, and to meet the various order emergencies that arise from time to time. Selkirk's in-patient population has been increas­ ing and with the general increase has been an increased number who are hard to handle and a number who tend to be violent.

The provision of an adequate level of staffing on each ward has been found to be the most effective way of managing these patients and ensuring that a sense of being safe for both patients and staff. MR. SHERMAN: Does this mean, Mr. Chairman, that the total staff man years at Brandon will then be 636 and the total staff man years at Selkirk will be 48 1? Is that correct? The category that changes in Brandon is nursing; that would go from 322 staff man years to 327; the category that changes at Selkirk is contin­ gency, that would go from 14 to 21, correct? Mr.

Chairman, the Salaries appropriation is approx­ imately $1 million higher in '82-83 than it was in '8 1 -82. I would assume the 12 additional SMYs don't account for that whole difference. There would be some incremental impact, of course. Could the Minister just explain for the committee what the increase is attrib­ uted to? MR. DESJARDI NS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the member is absolutely right. It is the new staff man years, seven and five and the increment, but the general increase as you probably know, would not be included in that at this time. MR. SHERM AN: Mr.

Chairman, there are a number of physical changes and improvements that are taking place both with respect to Brandon Mental Health Centre and Selkirk Mental Health Centre. I note that the Minister indicated in his announcement at the outset of his Estimates, that he's proceeding with a $3.3 million upgrading of mental health centres in Selkirk and Brandon. At the time of the change of government, there was a $5 million redevelopment plan under way for each of those two centres. I wonder if the Minister could explain the difference in designated expenditure?

We're looking at $3.3 million as against $10 million for those two mental health centres. MR. DES JAR DINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I had to pre­ pare a statment and I think the best way to do it is read it. I think that'll give all the information requested. The capital construction project of the provincial mental health centres, the Department of Health has a multi-phased, long-term plan for the modernizing and upgrading of both the Brandon and Selkirk Mental Health Centres. At Brandon Mental Health Centre design and con­ struction of a new laundry facility and a new 10 0-bed unit will commence in 19 82-83.

Funds allocated for

Thursday, 22 April, 1982 these two projects in 1982-83, $1,400,000 for the laundry building project and $1 million for the new 100-bed unit will alloww for the completion of design and the commenc eme nt of initial construction activities. The new 100-bed unit is also expected to house the centre's entire dietary operation. Construction period for the laundry building and the new patient-care unit will be approximately two and two and one half years respectively. The appointment of consultants for these projects is currently being reviewed.

The next phase in the long term development plans for Brandon Mental Health Centre call for the reloca­ tion of out-patient community services now located in the Pine Ridge building, to downtown Brandon, and renovation at Pine Ridge to accommodate the admi­ nistrative offices of the centre. Future phases call for the demolition of the Valley View Building and the construction of a second 100-bed unit which will also provide more spaces needed for recreational activi­ ties. This building will also house such services as the dental, laboratory and morgue facilities.

The final project in the series of plans for Brandon M�ntal Health Centre is the examination of the exist­ ing Parklands Building to determine whether this facility should be renovated or replaced to meet per­ sonal care home standards. For Selkirk Mental Health Centre the approved long-range planning concepts call for the renovation or replacement of an existing facility referred to as B Unit to accommodate approximately 100 patients. This facility is not presently in use for patient care.

Availability of these additional beds will relieve some of the current overcrowding in other buildings on the centre's grounds and will relieve some of the pressure for additio nal beds. The second stage in the planning for Selkirk Mental Health Centre involves a review by government staff to ascertain whether it is economically feasible to proceed with renovation plans to modernize the infirmary unit in compliance with personal care home standards or whether new construction will be neces­ sary. A reception building is also scheduled for pro­ gram and fire safety upgrading.

It has already been determined that this building can be economically upgraded to meet program requirements. Funds allocated in 1982-83 for Selkirk Mental Health Centre will allow for the necessary feasibility and design activities to be concluded for each facility. Construction will not commence on any of the Selkirk projects before '82, '83, '84 providing this is approved and consultants to undertake the necessary feasibil­ ity and design work are currently under considera­ tion.

The specific '82-83 funding allocation for feasi­ bility in design is $100, 000 for B Unit, $1 70, 000 for the infirmary and $83,000 for the reception building. MR. SHERMAN: I thank the Minister, Mr. Chairman, for providing me with a copy of that statement and that information. Can it be assumed, Mr.

Chairman, that not withstanding the specific time frames that are identified in the Minister's statement with respect to individual components of the redevelopment projects at both facilities, that the government is continuing with a lori g-term redevelopment plan for both facili­ ties that could well be a five-year plan. It could well encompass a five-year period.

I know there are spe­ cific references in his statement to two years and two-and-half years in 1983 and 1984 and that type of thing, but I would hope that this doesn't indicate that there has been any shortening or foreshortening of the extensive redevelopment of the two centres that is necessary and that was deemed something that would probably take some five years to complete. MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr. Chairman, the member is right. I think this might be the occa sion though to explain, of course, that certain things are approved for planning only.

I want this clearly understood that we recommend, and if we get the money for planning it's because you're serious, because you don't spend that kind of m oney, but nevertheless it has to receive approval by Cabinet before the construction starts. Right now the plans which we have in mind is to do exactly what the honourable member is stating, but the state economy, the construction industry and all that could be factors.

There's a possibility that things could be compacted a bit, instead of five years to help with the economy, maybe four years, or the possibility if there is quite a bit of construction one year, I'd say in the private sector and so on, it could be stretched another year. We have to take those things into con­ sideration. It's a very important thing for the economy of the province.

I think it is dangerous if you build everything one year where you have to go and recruit specialists in the construction trade for one year and the next year you lose your own Manitobans who will go somewhere else, so we tried to even that up. But I'm not saying this is a way out, I want this clearly understood that we intend to, as Minister of Health especially, have the responsibility to provide the facil­ ities and the service we need as soon as possible. That is what we intend to do. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I'm pleased to hear the Minister's confirmation of the fact and recognition of the fact there is a great deal to be done. Obviously, it's got to be staged with the considerations in mind that he mentioned. There is a great deal to be done and I would hope that the will and intention to recog­ nize that is still there; I gather from the Minister's remarks that such is the case so that's good to hear. Mr.

Chairman, with respect to Brandon, if we can just deal with it separately for a moment, can the Minister advise me of where the situation stands at the present time with regard to Norwood Gardens in the Parklands Building. Norwood Gardens has been emptied of its residents, I understand that. Perhaps I'll have to ask the Minister for confirmation of that, but as I understand it, the intention was to demolish Nor­ wood Gardens. -( Interjection )- It is demolished now, thank you.

The residents of the centre who were housed in Norwood Gardens are now in renovated refurbished accommodations in the basement of the Parklands Building, is that correct? 1777 MR. DESJAR DINS : I think that's what I read and I think that was one the reasons why we asked for five nurses because the patients were moved there. MR. SHERMAN: So that renovation job on the base­ ment of the Parklands Building has been completed

• ·- - - Thursday, 22 April, 1982 and that accommodation is suitable and in use in accordance with those plans. Mr. Chairman, there has been some considerable discussion with respect to a rationalization of both acute psychiatric services and out-patient services between the Brandon Mental Health Centre and Brandon General Hospital. Has there been a determination made as to whether the required facility for psychiatric services of that nature will be located on the campus of the Mental Health Centre or at the General Hospital, has that question been resolved yet? MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr. Chairman, not yet.

It's in the process of being resolved. Mr. McLean is meeting with the hospital and the Mental Institution and we should expect some correspondence from them fairly soon giving us their preference and their recommen­ dation. We'll have to deal with them at that time. I don't think I'll have more information, but it would be under the Commission. MR. SHERM AN: Could the Minister just either check with his own memory or with his officials and remind me of precisely what that unit is intended to be?

Is this separate and distinct from the ongoing chronic care, long-stay care that is administered at the Mental Health Centre? This, as I recall, was to do with acute emergency out-patient psychiatric treatment. Is that an accurate recollection? MR. DESJAR DI NS: I understand it's dealing mostly with acute psychiatric patients; that, as I say, has not been resolved, but this is the . . . MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister made reference to demolition of the Valleyview Building and I'm just looking for the reference in here that I think he made, but I can't put my finger on it, to the plans for a psycho-geriatric facility at Brandon, a new psycho-geriatric facility at Brandon. Is that to be built on the site of the Valleyview Building? Is that part of the proposed construction on that site or is it going to be located somewhere else? MR. DESJAR DINS : There'll be 100 beds being built.

That has received approval to go to tender and then the brick facility will be demolished and then the intention, the plan, that hasn't been approved yet, the plan is to build another 100 bed, multi-purpose on the same site. MR. SHERMAN: Is there any tie-in at this level, Mr. Chairman, with the proposed demolition or evacua­ tion of the Salvation Army hostels in Brandon or is that specifically a personal care matter? MR. DESJ ARDI NS: That will be dealt with either in our Capital program or certainly, if you don't find it there, under the Personal Care Home under the Commission Estimates. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the Brandon Mental Health Centre had a very active community mental health program in place and, hopefully, one can say that can be phrased in the present tense, that the Brandon Mental Health Centre has a very active 1778 community mental health program operating from its facility's site. Could the Minister bring the committee up to date on the status of that program? Are there sufficient community health workers available or is the service being delivered directly out of the Mental Health Centre by Brandon Mental Health Centre staff? Where do we stand on that particular program? MR.

DESJAR DINS: Yes, the hospital is still providing the Community Mental Health Programs to the City of Brandon. I might as well inform the Committee right now that I'm quite concerned about Brandon because of the difficulty of recruiting. I think that we have nine posi­ tions that aren't filled and out of that there are four or five psychiatrists and the rest are GP s doing some of that work, so we're very concerned and we'll have to zero in on that problem very soon. MR.

SHERMAN: When the Minister says that he is quite concerned about Brandon, does he mean he is quite concerned about the Brandon Mental Health Centre or about the Community Mental Health Pro­ gram operating out of the Brandon Mental Health Centre? Are we short of Community Mental Health workers? MR. DESJAR DINS: Mostly the Centre, but because of the staff I think it would reflect on both. If you haven't got the staff, you can't do what you'd like to do in the institution and then you're limited also for community services. The whole thing is in danger the way things are now because of the lack of personnel.

I understand besides that, I had a chance to visit the hospital and they expressed their concern. I visited the establishment also and I understand that besides those that I stated, the vacancies, there are a few of them that are thinking of retiring very soon because of ill health and so on; it's not a good situation. MR. SHERMAN: Is the same administration and chief executive officer, etc., that was in place at Brandon six months ago, still in place there? For example, is Dr. Andy Moyes still there? MR. DESJ ARDI NS: Yes, the same Director, the same Medical Director. MR.

SHERMAN: The Minister reports that a number of the positions that would normally or desirably be filled by psychistrists are being filled by GP s at the present time. Is there also a shortage of GP s function- ing in that capacity? · MR. DESJAR DI NS: Yes, there are four or five psychi­ atrist positions to fill and the remaining of the nine, again four to five GP s. I think it 's four psychiatrists and five GP s. MR. SHERMAN: Four psychiatrists and five GPs vacant? MR. DE SJARDINS: We have the staff man year. It's just that we haven't been able to fill it, and that again is a bit of the same problem.

I think the whole thing of psychiatry and staff is altogether with the discussion

Thursday, 22 April, 1982 that we're having with Dr. Kovacs, Dr. Prosen in the University and the Medical College and so on. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, that leads to an observation, a comment I guess, more of a comment than a question. The Minister is obviously going to have a difficult time setting up the Mental Health Review Board. Any government of the day would have a difficult time setting up the Mental Health Review Board.

At least, where Brandon is concerned in that situation, not withstanding the basic challenge of finding the psychiatrists and the personnel to man that review board, obviously there have to be the per­ sonnel in place at the Mental Health Centres to expe­ dite the process of review and make it possible. Under the circumstances, are there difficulties being encountered in terms of maintaining ongoing monitoring of the status of individual patients in Brandon?

Are there patients in Brandon whose cases should be reviewed who perhaps might even be eligi­ ble for reclassification or discharge who are not able to achieve that situation because there isn't sufficient staff there to review their cases in a professional way? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, and to the member, this is what Dr. Tavener's report should tell us. We'll know a little more when we get that report; that is exactly what is being studied now. MR. SHERM AN: But there is a possibility then, Mr.

Chairman, that there are patients in Brandon who could be eligible for discharge if there were sufficient staff to cope with the situation? MR. DESJARDINS: I hesitate to agree with that because it's a guess and that could be very serious. We're looking into it; we hope that's not the case. I think that is one of the things we are trying to maintain and I've been told not to worry, that even if we didn't proclaim that, the situation isn't bad, the people are protected.

It might be better with a review board; they're always trying to improve, but I certainly wouldn't want to give the impression that there is a bunch of people who are locked up who shouldn't be and so on. I don't think that's the case but we certainly will find out; we want to ascertain to make sure and that will help us. I think I'm followin g exactly in the footsteps of the former Minister who was responsible for introducing the Act, and as soon as we can with the staff - it will be very costly as we know - we'll go ahead. In the meantime we' re reviewing everthing and I would imagine it will be phased in.

Everyone who has requested through themselves or for family and so on, a review. That has been done to date, at least we can assure you of that. MR. SHERMAN: What about the safety factor for patients, Mr. Chairman, are there staff shortages or vacancies at Brandon that imperil the safety and the well-being of residents and patients? MR. DESJAR DI NS: The safety, I think, would be additional staff especially that we've provided for a conti ngenc y in the nurses. I think that's the best bet when there's somebody there. I think that the safety will be improved.

The welfare, well, you know, I imagine that I'd have to answer "yes," that it's not the same or I wouldn't want to fill these positions if that was the case, but not as far if you're talking about welfare, the safety and the danger of injuring them­ selves and so on. I don't think that's a danger, espe­ cially with the new staff that we're going to have. I think that'll be all right. MR.

SHERMAN: Out of those 636 staff man years at Brandon - well, it's not fair to take 636 because five of them are new requests - out of the existing 631 staff man years at Brandon, how many vacancies would there have been on the 1 st of April, 1982? MR. DESJAR DIN S: Mr. Chairman, I think it would be easier if the Member for Fort Garry took the sheet that I gave him earlier; then he'll have it right in front of him. I think that will be spelled. Is it spelled Brandon as such? It doesn't spell Brandon as such or what? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, in Institutional Men­ tal Health Services, we show 18 vacancies as of Feb­ ruary 28, 1982, but I was wondering how many of them would be Brandon. MR. DESJAR DINS: We'll deduct, instead we'll sub­ stract. I am told by Dr. Kovacs that his vacancy rate in Selkirk is 1.2 so, all the rest is in Brandon. 1.2 percent. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, could we look at Sel­ kirk for a moment in a similar context? Dr. Kovacs says that his vacancy rate at Selkirk is 1.2 percent which means that there are approximately 6 vacan­ cies at Selkirk. What categories are those vacancies in? MR.

DESJARDINS: Mostly psychiatric nurses on staff. MR. SHERMAN: Mostly psychiatric nurses. Does Dr. Kovacs got all the psychiatrists that he wants? MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr. Chairman, the positions are filled but they're under filled. It could be somebody that's not as qualified as we'd like to have it. It could even be a psychiatric nurse in some instances. It's under filled but it's filled. So, we certainly are in the market for more psychiatrists. MR. SHERMAN: So, Dr.

Kovacs has some GP s and perhaps even some psychiatric nurses filling posi­ tions that all of us would desire could be filled by psychiatrists, is that right? How many psychiatrists has Dr. Kovacs got? How many specialists holding fellowships in psychiatry or full qualifications in psy­ chiatry has Dr. Kovacs got? MR. DESJARDI NS: Some very mean person wanted to know including or excluding the President of the MMA. I didn't say that. The psychiatrists, there's Dr. - I can't pronounce that - I won't give you any names. There's seven psychiatrists. Out of those, they're all noncertified. MR.

SHERM AN: They' re all noncertified? MR. DESJ ARDINS: Right. 1779

. - I • • Thursday, 22 April, 1982 MR. SHERM AN: So, except for Dr. Kovacs there's nobody at Selkirk who did his residency or did a residency in psychiatry? MR. DESJ ARDI NS: Let's see, I give you seven non­ certified and then there's eight certified. MR. SHERMAN: Well, that's better. Thank you. I've just forgotten, Mr. Chairman, whether the Min­ ister has already told me that the 1.2 percent vacancy rate at Selkirk is exclusively in the psychiatric area or are those vacancies distributed among the staff. Are there vacancies in other categories of staff? MR.

DESJAR DI NS: Yes, there are but the majority are psychiatric nurses. Now as far as the physician, the doctors, they're all filled but some of them as I explained are under filled, but the vacancies are mostly with psychiatric nurses but I can 't confirm that. They' re not all there; it's a general staff but not at the physician level. Mr. Chairman, on the long-range development plan for Selkirk, the Minister has specified that the concept calls for the renovation or replacement of the B Build­ ing to accommodate approximately 100 patients.

My recollection is that while the question mark remained over the status and future of the B Building that there was a determination to go ahead with regeneration and redevelopment of the infirmary. The Ministe r's statement doesn't make that absolutely clear, although certainly it refers to plans to proceed with the nioder­ nization of the infirmary. Could he elaborate on that point? I was under the imp ression that modernization of the infirmary at Selkirk was a step that had already been commenced. MR.

DESJAR DINS : The project certainly is still included in the five-year program for the integration of program and fire safety upgrading the infirmary and $170 ,000 has been provided in 1982-83 for con­ sulting services for the upgrading of the infirmary building. If possible, if it 's approved after that, what­ ever comes out of the planning, start on renovation which will be dependent upon the finds of the consul­ tant in the investigation. They're still in the plans, but right now funds have been approved only for the study and for the planning. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, there were some dif­ ficulties in recent years with respect to some of the staffing components at Selkirk, particularly in the die­ tary component. I know that the previous government wrestled from time to time with employee difficulties having to do with union contracts and with recogni­ tion of particular services and functions and extra duties. At one point, a year or a year-and-a-half ago, it was a fairly serious matter. In fact, in deference to those persons who were involved I would rephrase my terminology, Mr. Chairman.

It was a very serious mat­ ter; it was certainly serious to those who were involved. I wonder if the Minister could give the committee an update on that situation and offer any reassurance that some of those staff morale problems in Selkirk have been resolved. I would like to say at this point that whatever diffi­ culties existed there existed despite the very sincere 1780 and conscientious efforts of Dr. Kovacs. It was a mat­ ter of some contention at personal interest levels per­ haps that was very difficult to contain and I know that Dr.

Kovacs was on top of the problem at all times, but nonetheless there was a difficulty there for him and for the department for some time. I would appreciate a comment from the Minister as to the present status with respect to that staffing morale problem. MR. DESJAR DIN S: Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased to be able to report to the member that the committee of staff labour and management that was set up under my friend's administration is working quite well and they've solved most of the problems and things are greatly improved. They are still meeting; it's not com­ plete but it's been very successful. MR.

SHERM AN: Mr. Chairman, is there still a consid­ erable traffic of dischargees from the Selkirk Mental Health Centre into personal care beds in the Selkirk community? Does that continue to be a difficulty with respect to availabilities in personal care homes in Selkirk? MR. DESJAR DINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, it is and it always will be, but I think we've got it under control because in the guidelines that we set for beds per thousand per personal care home, we take that into consideration. It is a problem and it always will be, but it's not out of control. MR.

SHERM AN: Is the new proprietary personal care home in Selkirk which contains 32 more beds than the old home that it replaced, Red River Place being the new home, is it required to meet certain guidelines with respect to ratios of its residents? Do a certain number of those 104 beds have to be held for dischar­ gees from the Mental Health Centre? MR. DE SJAR DINS: No, Mr. Chairman, but I wonder if we could go into this a little more while all the staff of the Health Services Commission is here while we deal with personal care home.

I think we could deal again if the member is not satisfied with the little information I can give him at this time, but I'm told that is not the case. MR. SHERM AN: The reason I raised it at this time, Mr. Chairman, is simply to examine with the Minister the question of places to go for persons who are dis­ charged from Mental Health Centres. I would appre­ ciate reassurance that persons are not being kept in Selkirk Mental Health Centre simply because there is no place for them to go either in terms of group homes, facilities that are located for them through the homefinders service or personal care homes. MR.

DES JAR DI NS: Mr. Chairman, I want to make it quite clear that I am not objecting to the fact that it's being raised here, except the information that I can get is limited at this time. We could explore this long and as deeply as we can at this time, but I might have answers that I might not be able to give my honour­ able friend until we deal with the Manitoba Health Services Commission and then again we could be jus t as flexible when we get there and come back to this,

Thursday, 22 April, 1982 but the panelling is the same. Everybody that is admit­ ted to a personal care home has to go through the same panelling in Selkirk like the rest of the province . MR. SHERM AN: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister advise the committee of where the new government stands on the concept of de-institutionalization insofar as mental health centres are concerned? Is there a philosophy or an intention or an initiative to empty Brandon and Selkirk and place as many of those resi­ dents in the community as possible? MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr.

Chairman, I think that we all have to have that dream of trying to empty all the institutions, but if we are practical people in the field know that is impossible. I have made my mistakes in the past four or five or six years ago where we were all gung ho to close all these - we were going to close Brandon - about the time I became the Minister and in Selkirk. Then we realized we were doing that quite fast, but we forgot at the other end we weren't ready to accommodate these people.

We didn't have all the proper staff and then, unfortunately, many of these patients would end up in the psychiatric wards of the General Hospital and that would back up. So, that is a concern. We want to do it in an orderly way and we have to look at the financial situation also. There is so much we can do and this is one of the situations that there is no doubt those would be much more costly. Nevertheless, even if we had all the money in the world and we had all the staff in the world. Mr. Chairman. would you please invite these people from the other committee to move back or sit down? I can't hear. MR.

CHAIRM AN: Order please. MR. DESJAR DINS: I'm insulted, Mr. Chairman. These people come in here and disrupt this Committee like that. Mr. Chairman, what I was about to say is that no matter what, we will reduce it. But, there's always, my feeling anyway, from the expert advice that I've received in the past that there will always be a certain amount of people that will be better off in the institu­ tions. So, we are not all one or the other. We have learned our lesson; We had to put on the brakes about six years ago or so and reverse our stand.

A very important thing I think that we've got to move with the people in the community. I think it's a certain education that the people, the same as we do with some people, the retarded children in certain schools; the community has to be ready and has to accept them or it makes it very difficult. I am sure the member knows there are conflicting points of view on that and there always will be, but the member asked me for the government's and my opinion and I have tried to give it to him as honestly as I could. MR. SHERMAN: Well, I'm glad to hear that, Mr. Chairman.

There is a conflicting point of view; that's true. There are certainly two schools of thought. I don't think one is exclusive or should be permitted to be exclusive of the other. I think all across North America in the late 1960s and early 1970s, we embraced the philosophy of de-institutionalization and found out that the result in many cases was a person who was requiring some attention and some particular emotional support, isolated in a lonely room in a downtown rooming house and far worse off than he or she had been when they were with com­ pany and friends in a mental health centre. What is happening, Mr.

Chairman, with respect to the development of those community support sys­ tems? I appreciate that we're not talking about com­ munity mental health here. We dealt with it, but you can hardly separate community mental health from institutional mental health because both facilities maintain very active community outreach and com­ munity service programs and both, I presume, main­ tain home finders who are looking for suitable loca­ tions for patients who can be discharged into the community.

Are there any bright signs on the horizon or any new techniques or any new difficulties being encountered in the process of trying to develop those community placements and community supports for persons who can be discharged? MR. DE SJAR DI NS: Mr. Chairman, I think we've covered part of that. I think the information that I gave the committee and the member that we had $125,000 for a new centre this year. As far as finding these homes, I think that we covered that in some of the new homes we had in the regional group, that we'll be doing that now. It's not an easy matter.

I don't think I can report that there is any significant improvement over four or five months ago. It is a difficult thing and as the member knows also, there are so many people that are vying for these foster homes and volunteers and all these things now that it's not the easiest thing in the world to do. CHAIRMAN'S RUL ING MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Honourable Member for River East. MR. PHIL EYLER (River East): Mr. Chairman, the rul­ ing by the Chair on a point of order in the

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 was challenged and sustained in a voiced and counted vote. This was appealed to the whole committee. Does the committee wish to sustain the Chairman's ruling? MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it the will of the committee to sustain the Chair? (Agreed) It is not unanimous, in my opinion, the "Ayes" have it. 1781 MR. RANSOM: I request a formal vote, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Call in the members. The committee will come to order. The question before the House is, does the committee wish to sus­ tain the Chairman's ruling? A COUNTED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas, 21; Nays, 19. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Member fo r

Thursday, 22 April, 1982 La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, I was paired with the Honourable First Minister. Had I voted, I would have voted with my colleagues. MR. CHAIRM AN: I declare the motion carried. SU PPLY - HE AL TH (Cont'

d) MR. CHAIRMAN: The committee will come to order. Continuing before we were so rudely interrupted, Item No. 4. (d) (1 ), Salaries. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: I just had a couple of other ques­ tions on this general subject, Mr. Chairman, and one them had to do with the Psychiatric Residency Pro­ gram. Is that in place? There was an incentive pro­ gram developed for residents in psychiatry which was intended to address the current shortage of psychia­ trists and, particularly with respect to institutional psych iatry, and to address it as it applies to both Brandon and Selkirk.

Could the Minister advise the Committee where that program stands? MR. DESJAR DI NS: Mr. Chairman, there had been a discussion with the Medical Director at Selkirk and the university and they wanted to send a psychiatrist for three months only. That wasn't acceptable to us: we felt that it should be for six months, so that didn't go any further, but that is under review now and the facilities are there. We would take them if they agree to go for six mont hs but it would be difficult to take them just for three mont hs. It wouldn't be worth it. MR.

SHERMAN: So the program is open and avail­ able to anybody at the Manitoba Medical School who wants to do his or her residency in psychiatry pro­ vided they'll go to Selkirk for six mon ths. What about Brandon? Are you doing it at Brandon too? MR. DE SJAR DI NS: That program is not in Brandon. I guess they'd be afraid to send them there: we'd never let them go. No, that doesn't exist in Brandon. MR. SHERMAN: One other question, Mr. Chairman, going back to Brandon again for a moment.

Also, there was an idea for a Respite Care Program at Bran­ don whi ch was intended, I think, to accommodate patients who had been discharged into the commun­ ity and had found it difficult to relate occupationally and socially and rather than having to come back into the institution, there was going to be a separate house maintained somewhere where they could go through an adjustment process. Is that contemplated in the immediate plans for Brandon? MR. DESJ ARDI NS: There's nothing newer than we had last year, but there's still $30,000 under Respite Care: the fund is there.

So far, the same as last year but there's no improvement, nothing is changed over last year. MR. SHERM AN: But has that respite house or respite care facility been found, been established? I think that 1782 the intention was to find a house and staff it wit h a couple of foster or house parents that could be used for respite care for these people having difficulty mak­ ing the transition. MR. DESJARDINS: It was one of the options that wasn't accepted for this year, but it certainly will be under review for next year. We couldn't look at all these things in the couple of months that we had at the most.

I'm not saying we'll have it next year, but it will be reviewed again. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister bring the committee up-to-date with respect to the populations of the in-patients and out-patients at both Brandon and Selkirk? Are they going up or are they going down or are they remaining fairly constant? MR. DE SJAR DINS: I'll start with 1977, 78, 79, 80 and 81. Starting with Brandon, the in-patients, 571, 561, 574, 555, and 559; same years in the same sequence in Selkirk, 326, 354, 391, 370, 408, that was the in-patients.

Now the out-patients, starting with Brandon, start­ ing wit h the year '77, 1,241, 1,443, 1,488, 1,618, 1,566; now Selkirk, 955, 1, 769, 1,549, 1,235, 1,285. MR. SHERMAN: I think that's all the questions I have on_this appropriation, Mr. Chairman, thank you. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, the other day I asked a question and the Minister told me at that time to wait until some of these appropria­ tions. I had not been aware of the fact that we had had a change, that Dr. Tavener no longer was the head of this particular department.

Could the Minister tell me who is in charge of this department now? MR. DESJAR DINS : Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to go in great length because that was covered already, but we have an acting person, that's Dr. Varsamis, at this time and we are trying to recruit to find a person. I'm sure that if he wants more information, his col­ league from Fort Garry will give it to him or Hansard because we covered that quite extensively. Dr. Ver­ samis is acting at the time until the end of April and then we will have to either get a permanent, if we can, or somebody else to act in the meantime. MR.

BRO WN: The · Minister mentioned under the questioning by my colleague that there were a number of psych iatrists training in Manitoba at the present time and I understand from your answers that we're quite short on psychiatrists in Manitoba. Could the Minister tell me how many persons we have training as psych iatrists in Manitoba at the present time? MR. DESJARDINS: The training would be done in the teaching hospitals in the city, the Health Sciences Centre, the St. Boniface and roughly as close as I can tell you at this time, approximately 25. MR. BRO WN: How many positions are vacant at the present time?

If they were all to stay in Manitoba,

Thursday, 22 April, 1982 would that fulfil! all our requirements or would we still be short? MR. DESJARDI NS: We would fill the positions, but many of them are underfilled. We certainly wouldn't want to turn anyone away, I don't think. I think we would try to fill with more qualified people some posi­ tions that are underfilled, but we certainly would fill the positions with a body. That would be done now as far as if we can get all the qualified people. I don't imagine there would be too many that would have to leave the province. MR.

BRO WN: At Eden Mental Health Centre in Winkler, there are a lot of out-patients. They have been working at some time trying to get a workshop where they could employ these people while they are waiting for a treatment or whatsoever, so that they could occupy them with - well give them something to do, something useful to do - and they have been trying to get a workshop. Can the Minister tell me, any where in the Estimates for this coming year, is there funding for a workshop such as this? M R. DE SJAR DI NS: If there is anything at all, my friend will have to consult with the Minister of Com­ munity Services.

It would have to be in his Estimates and not mine. MR. BROWN: Since Dr. Tavener no longer is with the department and since we have somebody that's look­ ing after it from what I understand on an acting basis; he's not going to be the director, I wonder, can the Minister tell me at the present time who is doing the planning? Who is giving the leadership? Do we have a long range plan as far as mental health is concerned?

One of the things that always bothers me is that Sas­ katchewan is being always held before our eyes as having an excellent mental health program and that we in Manitoba are somewhat behind of the planning, the direction that's given in Saskatchewan. I wonder, can the Minister tell me whether he is Working on a long range plan? MR. DESJAR DINS : Mr. Chairman, I don't want to be difficult, but I sure the hell don't want to start all over again either.

Most of these things were covered under other areas and I would suggest my honourable friend read Hansard and if he's not satisfied or something, he can always try to get the answers. Mind you, the staff won't be here, but when we deal with the Minis­ ter's Salary because this has been covered also what­ ever we have. I repeated that many times and we're looking at the whole situation. First of all, we have to attract a replacement for Dr. Tavener full time and I think it's only normal that he would have to be very much involved in the planning. It makes it difficult without that person in place.

We have had a very informal committee chaired by Dr. Prosen, who is working with the qualified people and the experts that we have, people in our department such as Dr. Kovacs and others, on a number of things and we're awaiting his recommendation. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4. (d) (1) -pass; 4. (d) (2) -pass; 4. (d)

(3) External Agencies. The Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I just want to make sure that my colleague, the Member for Rhineland of which constituency Winkler is a great-centre, is satis­ fied with respect to the questions he may have had pertaining to the Eden Mental Health Centre. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. BRO WN: I didn't really get my answer from the Minister. He said I would have to contact the Minister of Community Services in order to find out whether there was any funding for the workshop. I think the workshop at the present time is the major concern.

Outside of that, things seem to be running quite well at Eden Mental and people seem to be relatively happy working there, but it is this workshop that's required, so I will have to contact the Minister of Community Services on that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4. (d) (3) -pass. That completes the items to be considered under Resolution No. 77. Therefore,

be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $31,241, 700 for Mental Health Services for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 19 83. Continuing with Item No. 5, The Alcoholism Foun­ dation of Manitoba, Resolution No. 78 - the Honour­ able Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister may want to wait for just a moment or two while his offi­ cials from the Alcoholism Foundation join him in the committee. MR. BROWN: I see that we are spending a million dollars more on this particular item than we did last year.

Can the Minister tell me where this extra money is going to be spent? MR. DESJAR DINS: I won't give him all the details because there are some wages and things like this, but the new programs that we've been given are mostly the new building, the old CNIB building, that has been purchased by the Foundation to transfer some of the programs there and some facilities that were obsolete and inadequate and also, we're review­ ing some of the programs that will go in there.

The programs that had been started or at least planned during the former administration, we are going ahead; we haven't made any change on that at all, except we want to review them before the final okay. 1783 MR. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To begin with, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister whether he intends that the committee should deal with this appropriation and with this agency, the Al­ coholism Foundation, on a generalized basis or whether he intends that we deal with it according to the specific divisions of the Foundation?

There are four divisions of course; Provincial Administration, Prevention and Extension Services, Regional and Treatment Services and then External Agencies. Does he want to approach the subject from that point of view, dealing with them division by division?

Thursday, 22 April, 1982 MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr. Chairman, I think that's an excellent suggestion, especially since this is some­ thing that is com pletely new to me. It would be much more helpful for me. I have met quite a few ti mes with the Board and the Executive Director but I'm far from that knowledgeable yet. We intend, next Monday, to go and see the facilities.

I didn't think we'd be in this so fast, but I'll do my best with the help of the people with me and I would like to accept the suggestion that we start with Provincial Adm inistration, Prevention and Extension Services, Regional and Rehabilitation Ser­ vices and the External Agencies. I can start, while I'm on my feet, in giving you the am ount that will make up the $7.114 million; Provincial Adm inistration is 497.6. MR. SHERMAN: 497.6 . MR. DESJARDI NS: Right. Prevention and Extension Services, 891.6. MR. SHERMAN: 891.6. MR.

DESJARDI NS: Regional and Rehabilitation Ser­ vices, $4, 185.6 million; External Agencies, $1. 7212 million for a total of $7. 296 million. Our share of that is $7. 11 4 million because there is $181,000 that will be generated for the rental revenue from the rental of the building and so me sm aller donations and so on in contribution to the society. The share of the province will be 7.1142 million, and the cost of the total pro- gram will be $7.296 million. · MR. SHERMAN: Total program costs will be 7.296 million and the difference is the rental from accom­ modation and facilities provided clients.

Is that the difference? MR. DESJAR DI NS: I can give you exactly the makeup of that 18 1.8. There's 13 1.8 will be received in the CNIB; 25, 000 for donations and bank interest and 25 ,00 0 of the 1981-82 surplus that is kept there and accum ulated. MR. SHERMAN: Recoverable from Canada shows in print as $1 ,826, 500.00. That would be the am ount rec­ overable under the Regional and Rehabilitation Ser­ vices Division, I presume. Is that right? MR. DESJAR DIN S: Yes.

The am ount is an estimate of the am ount to be received under the Federal­ Provincial Cost Sharing Agreement, Vocational Rehab and Disabled Persons, but the Foundation does not receive these funds. That will go directly in consoli­ dated funds. So, it'll be recovered by the province, but the province would have to advance and I'm asking you to vote 7.1142 million. MR. SHERM AN: Right, but that whole amount that's recoverable from Canada is recoverable under the Rehabilitation Ser