VOL. 2 PRELI!1Til'AR¥ UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:0Q p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, MARCH 22, 1983 NO. 11

March 22, 1983 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 475 EC - l MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SIMMS: MR. SPEAKER: Recreation and Youth. SOME HON. ME~ffiE RS : MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Culture, Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, I wish today to provide hon. members of the House with some additional information concerning the Royal Visit to Newfoundland this Summer by Their Royal Highnesses, The Prince and Princess of Wales. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

SIMMS: Before doing this, however, I want to express this government's delight with the news of the official announcement on February 16th which confirmed that Prince .Charles and Princess Diana would visit Newfoundland as part of their tour of Canada beginning in mid-May. It will be the first official visit to Canada by Princess Diana and, of course, Prince Charles was last in Canada in October of 1982. It is now my pleasure to inform hon. members of the dates for the Royal Visit to this Province officially. The Prince and Princess of Wales will arrive in St.

John's from Ottawa on board a Canadian Forces aircraft in the late afternoon of Wednesday, June 22nd and they will undertake two full days of engagements on Thursday, June 23rd and Friday, June 24th, before departing on Saturday, June 25th to continue the visit to Prince Edward Island and Alberta. The ruyal Yacht Britannia will be used as the official residence of the Prince and Princess 1085

Mar ch 22, 1983 Tape 475 EC - 2 MR . SIM-~S: during their stay in our Province. The Britannia will be in St. John's in advance of the royal couple's arrival by air on June 22nd and they will depart on the royal yacht for Prince Edward Island on Saturday, June 25th. Because of the projected time of arrival in St. John's on June 22nd, the only public ev~nt for that day will be the formal arrival ceremonies at St. John's airport •.

I shoul .d point out that since the royal couple will be using Britannia as their official residence for their stay in Newfoundland and because of the limited time available and the logistical problems associated with such an event, it will be difficult for the royal couple to travel to all the locations which all of us would like them to visit. Under these circumstances, every effort will be made to provide as wide and as varied a public programme as possible, which would allow Prince Charles and Princess Diana to see, be se~n and meet as many people as possible during their short stay in Newfoundland. 1086

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 476 MJ - 1 MR. L. S·IMMS : Over the coming months,the Newfoundland Co-ordinating Committee will be working closely with the Federal Royal Visit Committee and officials of Buckingham Palace to plan and develop a meaningful publicly oriented programme and,as well,will put in place the logistical support required. When the complete prggramme has received final approval, Mr.

Speaker, from their Royal Highnesses,an announcement will be made well in advance of the arrival date and the full details of the itinerary will be made available in printed form, I cannot emphasize too strongly that programme information cannot be released until it receives Royal approval, and while this may be disappointing for some, it is particularly important that the proper protocol, with respect to planning and co-ordination, be maintained, At this point, we anticipate a very large contingent of international media who will be travelling with the Royal couple.

This lends itself, in my opinion, to an opportunity to promote our Province in a very positive way to a world-wide audience. I have no doubt that all the people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador will give this very popular Royal couple a truly warm Newfoundland welcome on the occasion of this, their first visit to our Province. MR. G. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, we on this side look forward to the visit of Princess Diana and Prince Charles. -- ~L-£~ly concern, Mr.

Speaker, __ is th(i _~not only __ _ _.!:~e __ ~_lite _ of t_he Prov:j..nc:e should b~ give:q, t!:te_ opportunity __ ._.to .~ is:j..t and __ t_o'- SCJ.Y he;Llo to ~ll,e ,~P::()_Y al coupl~, but all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians should be given 1087

March 21, 1983 Tape No, 476 MJ ~ 2 MR. G. WARREN: every opportunity to meet their Royal Highnesses. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! I would like to welcome to the galler-ies toda,y a delegation from the Town of Twi1linga,te with Mayor John Anstey, ~r. Willie Cooper, Mr. Winston saunders and the Town Clerk Mr. Wilfred Hull. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other Ministerial Statements? OR,AL QUESTIONS MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr, Speaker-. _ MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a, question for the ~inister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer). I regret that I have not had an opportunity to give him notice but ·r think it is a subject with which he is very familiar, ;so I think he will be able to answer, could he confirm for the House that the merger- between the District Court and the Supreme Court has now been postponed?. MR ~ G. OTTENHE"IMEF, : Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: The hon, the Minister of Justice, MR. OTTENHE IMER : Mr. Speaker, yes 1 in th _i s 1 th _a, t it w~ll not now be oper-ative next Septernber(October,which wa,s originally the intention.

What the government's inte~~ ~on will be, will be to introduce the Judicature Act and have the

section on merger come into effect on proclamation, but I could not give any specific date. MR. ROBERTS : Mr-. Speaker, 1088

.. March 22, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Tape No. 477 PK-1 The hon. member for ~he I thank the minister for confirming what has been a fairly widespread rurnour around at least the Bar, maybe even the Bench, although I do not know about that, but the Bar in the city for some time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) bar. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry? Some gentlemen over there were being funny about the Bar; not nearly as funny as some of the people at the Bar are. They should speak. to the Attorney General. Mr.

Speaker, the obvious follow-up is can the minister give the House any indication, I realize he said he cannot give a date but the matter involves a lot of planning, can he give us any indication as to when this might come about? And my friend for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg}, bucking hard to be Minister of Justice, has raised another supplementary which I will put in to save the minister two times getting up and that is what about the facilities, the physical facilities? Is the merger to await new physical facilities in St. John's? MR. STAGG: I did not say anything about that. MR. ROBERTS : whether you did or not.

MR. SPEAKER: You are getting credit for it anyway, The hon. Minister of Ju9tice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I would envision that a reasonable time frame now would be two years to two and a half years. MR. ROBERTS : Without the merger? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes. With respect ~o the facilities, it would be, in my opinion, if not absolutely essential - I would not argue that it was absolutely essential - certainly feasible and advisaole before having merger, and for other reasons as well, to move the Provincial Courts out 1089

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 477 PK-2 MR. OTTENHEIHER: of the present Courthouse, which would require the renting of space and then certain renovations within the Courthouse itself. So while I would not say it would be 1090

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 478 SD - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: absolutely essential to do that, I think it would certainly be highly advisable to do it and it would probably be the only feasible way of doing it. MR. ROBERTS: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Supplementary, the han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, cutting through the bafflegab,then it would appear that what the minsiter is saying with respect to physical facilities is that the Provincial Courts must be moved out of the present Court­ house Building on Duckworth/Water Street before the merger can be put into effect practicably. can he then tell us where we stand with respect to the Provincial Court move?

He will recall, of course, that tenders were called several months ago,if not longer,and no award has been made, Can he tell us why no award has been made and when one will be made?Because, of course, until the Provincial Courts have a place to go they cannot go from where they · are at as it were. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of J-qst:i:.ce, MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, tenders were called and no award has been made because after that the matter was reviewed in terms · of its expenditure and deci.ded that th .e additional expenditure - not so much. of the rent, which is not a great arnount,but of renovations in the area where the Provincial Court would move - would be a quite high capital cost and then, indeed , those alterations in the present courthouse on Duckworth Street would be quite expensive. So I would envision that it would be about a two year period before merger could take place, I think it would be necessary if not to have the Provi .ncial .

Court phyf?icall:<z: rnove.d , a.t 1091

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 478 SD - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: least to have it in process, where one would know in three, four, five or six months it would be done, I think that would certainly be necessary. MR. ROBERTS: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Supplementary, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, so cutting through the duc~buffle as opposed to the bafflegab this time, what .the minister is saying is that the plans to move the Provincial Court has now been put on the shelf and the Provincial Court will not be movin~ at least within the fiscal year beginning 1st April, 1983. I take that as the minister's answer.

Given all of the situation which ~e has now revealed, and which, of course, had not been made public before for whatever reason, can the minister tell us,please, what steps,if any ,he and his colleagues are going to take to try to ease the logjam of litigation in the Supr~e Court Trial Division.,as a result of which if a matter were to be set down today for trial 1 I am told it would be between one and two years before the parties seeking the court's resolution of their dispute could go before one of the judges and ask him to h.ear their evidence, hear the argument and then resolve th .e dispute?

Th .e logjam is now that serious, as the 1092

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 479 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: minister knows, and it is getting worse. Can he tell us what plans,then,the ministry has to do something about this? Because 1 as the minister will agree, the old saying that 'Justice delayed is justice denied' is very true and becoming only too relevant here in Newfoundland. MR. SPEAKER lRussell) : The han. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, as the han. gentlemen will probably recall, during the last session the House was informed that if for some reason merger did not go ahead, the request for one additionaljudge, additional to the trial judge appointed last year, that provision would be made for an additional trial court judge. It is our intention during the .present session to bring in the necessary amendment to create the position of one additional Supreme court, Trial Division judge. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.

ROBERTS: I do not know if I am still on supplemenuaries or new questions,but my colleagues have agreed to let me carry on because we are getting some information,for which I thank the minister. We are now getting to the point where the minister has announced that a new position for a judge in the Trial Divis ·ion of the court will be created 1 despite his rejection of the pleas we made last year. Could he tell us whether he and/or his officials have made any studies to indicate whether the provision of an extra trial court judge, without any extra courtroom space, will make any difference to the trial calendar?

And further,could he tell us whether he has had any communication with the Chief Justice of the Trial Division, who after all is the man in charge of administering the affairs of the court? 1093

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 479 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: And I say that because the problem is becoming far more serious. If any member has constituents who were involved in matters before the Supreme Court 1they are bound to be aware that we are no~ further behind in trials in this Province than we have ever been in history. ~he minister has made no announcements up until now~ we have all been going on the happy assumption that merger was coming and somehow that would make everything right. So has he made any studies to indicate that the provision of one extra trial judge will help? MR. SPEAKER (_Russell) : The han.

Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. First let me say that obviously with an additional trial judge space would be available. I was not sure if the hon. gentleman said there would not be space. MR. ROBERTS : MR. OTTENHEIMER: to figure that out, MR. ROBERTS: addition on the Courthouse. MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. ROBERTS: been over there .? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Where? Well,I guess the engineers will have They are going to have to build an Or redistribute space that is in there. How long has it been ~ince you have There has been discussion with the Chief Justice of the Trial Division on this matter. 1094

March 22,1983 Tape No. 480 ah-1 MR.OTTENHEIHER: There has been an exchange of correspondence. He has supplied information and indeed just two or three days ago I discussed the matter with the Chief ~ustice of the Trial Division, MR.ROBERTS:. MR.OTTENHEIMER: Have any studies been made? He has provided for the Department of Justice the necessary information which we would need to transmit to Ottawa for the creation of the additional position, the justificatary material. MR.ROBERTS: I am all for that. I have not even any partners left here. MR.SPEAKER (Russell: The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR.WARREN: Hr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Development (Hr. Windsor). I understand that the icebreaker Franklyn was suppose to go into Lake Melville this year but on two occasions it has been delayed. Could the minister update the House as to whether the icebreaker Franklyn will be going up into Lake Melville this year? If not,what is the reason she is not going? MR.SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Development. MR.WINDSOR: Hr.

Speaker, it is quite true. the Franklyn was scheduled to continue with the ice studies that we have been undertaking in Lake Melville over the past number of years and,as the House well knows, these studies have proven conclusively that we can operate in Lake Melville twelve months of the year. And we think that will have significant impact on industrial development of Labrador generally. The problem with the Franklyn this year, of course, is the unusual ice conditions. Although the Canadian Coastguard has been most co-operative in trying 1095

March 22, 1913"3 Tape No. 480 ah-2 MR. WINDSOR: to make an icebreaker available to us 1because of the other responsibilities they have it has not been possible on this occasion up to this point in time, and there is some question if indeed we will be able to do it this year at all. But she is still being looked at almosi on a daily basis and if it is at all possible there is no doubt that the 'icebreaker will be made available. MR. WARREN: MR.SPEAKER (Ru ss el l): Mountains. MR.WARREN: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Torngat A supplementary, Mr .Speaker. The last two years the Winters in Labrador were not severe

whereas this past Winter there has been very little snow and an extreme amount of ice . There is also concern that it is possible there is too much ice in Lake Melville, especially at the rapids there, that narrow part of Lake Melville, that the Franklyn could not penetrate. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that there is any concern that the icebreaker will not be able to get through. The Winter of two years ago was considered to be a fairly general average Winter,and last Winter was considered to be a little more severe. It is not a matter of the amount of snow 1 although that is obviously a factor, ·-. - but it is a. 1096

March 22, 1982 Tape 481 EC - 1 MR. WINSOR: matter of the ridging of the ice and the build-up of ice in particular locations, and this is something where remote sensing is very important and radar surveys prior to the vessel going in there. The whole issue at stake here is the ability of technology to predict ice conditions and to predict the degree of diffi­ culty that will be encountered and in predicting a route which will be the easiest one to traverse through the ice.

This particular Winter is a little more severe than others,although the ridging of the ice, as I understand it, is not particularly more severe than previous years although the thickness may be up or down some. But I am not aware of any concerns that the icebreaker will not .be able to get through. In fact, our ~xperience over the past two years has shown that there has not indeed been any great difficulty and, in fact, I think the M.V. Arctic showed conclusively that an ice reinforced cargo carrying vessel can indeed operate quite easily in those conditions without the aid of an icebreaker. MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: for the hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I have a question In view of the fact that a professor of international business, Professor Montgomery, I believe, is the gentleman's name - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: - a renowned professor of international business over at Memorial University has challenged the Premier to a debate on the way his administra­ tion has mismanaged the affairs of this Province, on the way that his administration has mismanaged the natural resources of this Province, I wonder if the hen. gentleman 1097

March 22, 1983 Tape 481 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: could tell the House,in a simple yes or no answer, does the hon. gentleman intend to accept the invitation to debate these matters publicly? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that all the other members of the business school and of theEconomicsDepartment of Memorial,who have not spoken out against the Budget - MR. HODDER: They did not speak out for you. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, Mr.

May, who is a member of the Economics ~epartment of the university, expressed some very positive opinions about the Budget,and others have. I would say Mr. Montgomery is in the minority of those people who have spoken out or who believe that the Budget of this Province is somehow deficient and somehow not responsible. On the question of a debate, I would be only too willing to debate with Mr. Montgomery, and no doubt he would go the way of the former leader of th~ Liberal Party and the former former leader of the Liberal Party when I debated both of those gentlemen and they were demolished in the election.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. 1098

March 22, 1983 Tape 482 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) :· The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. My invitation to the hon. gentleman is about two and a half to three years away,and then we will see who will get demolished. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, when I get up to ask a question they all go snakey over there. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Could the hon.

Premier tell the House, tell the people of this Province, especially people who live in communities that are going to be affected by the restructuring of the processing sector of the fishing industry,which is a matter which falls under provincial jurisdiction, would the hon. gentleman tell us where in the Budget is there financial provision for the administration to honour their undertaking to minimize the impact of plant rationalization on our communities? Where can we find that in the Budget 1 that provision? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: .

Given the fact that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) had to call . down to Treasury Board to find out 1 after the Budget had been read, whether in fact we did have a current account deficit or a current~account surplustthat obviously this question follows quickly on the heels of more misintrepretation of what is in the Budget and what is not in the Budget.

Furtherrnore,I wou~d say to the Leader of the Opposition,I would be prepared to answer that question when he will answer me the following question: When is he going to live up to the cornrnit~ent that he made to the people of Newfoundland three or four weeks ago 1099

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 482 PK-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: that if the Government of Newfoundland did not do what he said he was suddenly going to take such drastic action to see that the government, through the constitution, through the Lieutenant-Governor, through the Governor General, through the Queen, he was going to somehow see that he unseated this government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : MR. NEARY: Hear, hear: The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, I am going to give the answer to that the same time the Premier gives the answer to his statement as to what secret weapon he has to deal with Mobil Oil for thumbing their noses at the administration for not bringing the rigs ashore. As soon as the Premier tells us what secret weapon he has, then I will tell him what my secret weapon is. PREMIER PECKFORD: There were no conditions on yours. MR. NEARY: Oh, I see there were conditions on yours. You have conditions on yours. Well, we are still waiting - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: We are waiting, Mr. speaker, with bated breath to find out how the han. gentleman - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, since obviously there is no provision in the estimates to minimize the impact of plant rationalization, let me ask the hon. gentleman if he is expecting, if the administrationis expecting Ottawa to come to their rescue, 1100

March 21, 1983 Tape No. 483 MJ' - 1 MR. S. NEAR,Y: and if they have had any conunitment from Ottawa to provide funding for the restructuring of the processing sector of the fishing industry, which is provincial jurisdiction, or if they have any commitment from Ottawa in the way of funding to minimize the ~mpact of plant rationalization? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the premier, PREMIER PECKFORD: Now, Mr. :;ipeaker, let me first of all just say to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary), when he made his public statement about bringing this government down and going to the Lieutenant-Governor and the Governor General,he had no conditions attached to it all -and I went out to my constituency the week afterwards, Mr.

Speaker, and the first question that was posed to me by several people, '~fuen is the Leader .of the Opposition going to make good on his on his promise to bring down the Government of Newfoundland?' T.he people out there are waiting with bated breath to find out what the Leader of the Opposition -is going to do,and I think it is time now for the Leader of the Opposition to come clean with the people of this Province and,before l start answering all the other questions,I want to know if I am going to be here tomorrow.

Perhaps I am not going to be here to be the one to decide upon whether we are going to put money into the fishery or not under this restructuring process. Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition will be over here. It is time for the Leader of the Opposition to let us know whether he is going to see that we stay over here or Whether we are going to go over there. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hen, the Leader of the Opposition. 1101

March 21, 1983 Tape No. 483 MJ - 2 MR. S. NEARY: The number of people who think that the han. gentleman should be removed are increasing daily and,Mr. Speaker, even the PC'sstaunchest supporters really think that the han. gentleman has done damage enough to the Province and should be removed from office. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me come back to the question. The strategy onthe other side 1with the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and the Premier,seems to be that when they cannot answer a question, when they are cornered,they will then resort to political rhetoric and personal abuse.

Now, let us get back to the question that I asked the han. gentleman. Is the han. gentleman expecting Ottawa to come to the rescue of the provincial government in the restructuring programme and the impact of plant rationalization? And has the administration any commitment from the Government of Canada in the way of funding for these projects? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, first of all I am not trying to abuse the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) . Far be it for me to abuse the Leader of the Opposition.

All I have asked the Leader of the Opposition to do is to please come clean with this hen. House and with this government and with the people of Newfoundland: Are we to stay on this side of the House or are we not? What is the great Constitutional volley that the Leader of the Opposition is about to throw at us ~flhich is going to put in jeopardy this government for the next two or three years"? We had a mandate from the people last April 6, 1102

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 484 JV - 1 PRE MIER PECKFORD: want to pursue that mandate, but if we are going to be always under the cloud of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) threatening these body blows to the government, then it is going to be difficult for us to operate and to give answers to all these questions.

Now, will the Leader of the Opposition please stop worming about and ~ill he please now, today, in the House of Assembly - here is a great opportunity for the Leader of the Opposition; I will sit down in my place during Question Period and let the Leader of the Opposition have the floor to get up and detail out what he said in a public statement some weeks ago about throwing this government out of office, using constitutional pro visions that he had in his back pocket against us. That is what we want to know Mr. Speaker - come clean with the people of Newfoundland and this side?

I do not want to personally abuse him, I just want to k~ow what he has got in his arsenal. He said he was going t.o let everyone know. Now come clean and let everyone know. I am not abusing the Leader of the Opposition, I am just asking him to come clean. He cannot go on making press releases and having press conferences and threatening the government and the people of this province. How can we operate and · negotiate restructuring of the fishery, how can we continue to take great stands on the offshore if we are not going to be able to follow through on all of these things!

The Leader of the Opposition, with his great constitutional wisdom, with all the experts that he has at his disposal, surely now he is ready to put , on the table of the House just exactly what he is going to do with the government of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 1103

March 22, J.983 Tape No . 484 JV - 2 MR . NEARY : Mr. Speaker,let me put another question to the hon. gentleman on a very serious matter that is facing the fishery and the people of this province, especially people who live in Burin, Grand Bank, Gaultois , Ramea and other communities that survive on the deep -sea fishery . Would the hon. gentleman tell the House if the ~dministration is now in a position to announce or to undertake a full program of plant operations in the processing sector of the fishing industry this summer? MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr .

Speaker,I take it that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) is backing away from my challenge to him to come clean with the people of Newfoundland and to indicate what constitutional volley he is going to loose now to throw this government out of office like he promised the people of Newfoundland . He is afraid, the Leader of the Opposition is a£raid. Be made a whole 1104

March 21, 1983 Tape No. 485 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: bunch of threats a few weeks ago, now the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) cannot deliver on those threats, Mr. Speaker. Here is the alternative Premier, here is the gentleman who wants to be Premier of this Province,and here he goes about the Province making threats against this government to throw them out of office and he will not live up to those threats. Shame on the Leader of the Opposition~ Shame! I challenge him now to come clean on that issue. Or is it, I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, that he found out after he spouted off rather quickly and then he went to get some advice afterwards, the Leader of the Opposition found out he could not do anything, Mr. Speaker? I wonder if that is what happened to the Leader of the Opposition - he spoke first and he thought afterwards? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: PREMIER PECKFORD: So, Mr. Speaker, to answer the Leader of the Opposition's question, over the last several years - SOME HON. MEMBERS : bh, oh. PREMIER PECKFORD: I want to answer the Leader of the Opposition •· s question 1 if . the other members of the Opposition, Mr.

Speaker, will permit me to answer the question on the fishery 1 but I· am not going to answer if I am going to have to try to shout down the members opposite. Sa I ask for the protection of the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell).: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, PREMIER PECKFORD; Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I have the answer here, Mr. Order, please! Han. members, again, must be reminded that when a minister is answering a question he 1105

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 485 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : does have a right to be heard in silence. PREMIER PECKFORD: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated yesterday 1 around 75 per cent or 80 per cent, if you want to use specifics, of the jurisdiction over the fishery lies clearly with the federal government. They have the power to decide what the total allowable catch is going to be in the Gulf of Northern cod and all the various species. They decided how much fish is available.

They also decide how that fish is going to be transported from where it is to what plant in what community around Newfoundland. They have that absolute power. Now we have the power to issue processing licences. And we can issue as many processing licences as we like to a plant,but if they do not have th .e fish and the trawlers 1· and the federal government decides how much fish there is going to be and to what plant that trawler is going to go, then the processing licence becomes meaningless.

Now to show our good faith,though,because we are very concerned about I the fishery and it is a long term economic salvation, we have over the past five o·r six or sever or eigh:t years put forward about $60 million in the offshore companies - MR. MORGAN: $65 million to be exact. PREMIER PECKFORD: - $65 million, I am corrected by the Minister of Fisheries lMr. ·Morganl, into the offshore fishery. How much has the federal government put in to date into the offshore fishery? MR. MORGAN: $13 million. PREMIER PECKFORD: $13 million - MR. MORGAN: - in guarantee only. ,... PREMIER PECKFORD: in a guarantee only.

They have 80. per cent of the say and they put in about 20 . per cent of the money. We have 20 per cent of the say and we 1106

March 22, 1983 Tape No . 485 so - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: put in 80 per cent of the money. So, Mr. Speaker, I think it is clear that over the last number of years we have tried to keep companies like Fishery Products ,-through trawler replacement, Lake Group and ~ohn Penney and Sons, for example, we have tried to he-lp them stay alive . Now we are faced with a serious company financial problem. 11 07

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 486 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: But more importantly, Mr. Speaker, than an offshore company problem, and let us not confuse the two, there is a more fundamental basic fishery problem, and unfortunately up until now a lot of the public debate,from the other side especially, and other places, has centered around the problem of the companies. The Government of Newfoundland is far more concerned with the problem of the offshore and inshore fishery. MR. MORGAN: Hear, hear! Not the companies.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Last year,because we were so concerned about what was happening in the inshore fishery, after putting out $60 million in the offshore fleet,we also put some money into the inshore fleet. We put over $24 million, added to our $60 million, for a grand total of over $80 million compared to about $13 million by the federal government, who has 80 per cent of the say. Mr. MORGAN: Plus $19 million loans to fishermen. PREMIER PECKFORD: Plus $19 million loans to fishermen.

And we have put some of that money into places like Salvage, in Jackson's Arm, ~1. 3 nilli0n, we put $450,000 into Greenspond, we put s5 million into the Lake Group for Bonavista, and Cooks Harbour, and Enqlee and Fermeuse and Gaultois and Grand Bank and Main Brook and Fortune. MR. NEARY: This is an abuse; Hr. Speaker. The rules call for short,brief answers. The same rules apply to that side as apply to this sid~, Mr. Speaker. PREMIER PECKFORD: $150,000 into Brig Bay. We put $300,000 into Clarenville.

We put $150,000 into Petty Harbour. $1.5 million into Triton. $2.5 million into Harbour Grace. $3 million into Ramea. We put $150,000 into Burnt Island and Codroyo SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. SPEAKER (Russell} : Order, please! Order, please! 1108

March 22, 1983 PREMIFR PECKFORD: in Tors Cove . MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : on a point of order. SOME HON. MEl1BERS: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 486 NM- 2 $250,000 into Tors Cove Fisheries A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! Order, please! The han. Leader of the Opposition Hear, hear! I do not know what the han. gentleman had for lunch today, Mr. Speaker, but obviously the han. gentleman does not understand the rules of the House, especiallv as they apply to the Question Period. we only have half an hour.

Obviously now they are trying to do the same thing during the Oral Question Period as they are doing in these committees: They are trying to muzzle the Opposition, Mr. Speaker. The han. gentleman is abusing his privilege, Mr. Speaker.The answers must be brief, as Your Honour has directed the han. gentleman to do so often, and I would submit that tlie han. gentleman be reminded once again of the rules of this House, Mr. Speaker, and that he abide by the rules.and not- MR. SIMMS: Is this a point of order? MR. NEARY: .-No, hold on now. I am not finished yet. - and not try to use up the whole Question Period, Mr.

Speaker, on one answer. The answers, according to the rules of the House, should be short and to the point. PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: point of order. PREMIER PECKFORD: The han. the Premier, on that r sincerely apologize to the Leader of the Opposition and to all members of the Opposition. I was trying to qive a detailed 1 comprehensive answer on the question of the fisheries, both 1109

March 22, 1983 Tape 487 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: inshore and offshore1and I am just about to get to the point of dealing with the current problems that we have in the fishery, and I am very, very sorry, I say to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary)1if I took too long in answering an important question on the fishery. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell} : Order, please! The Chair would remind han. members that questions as well as answers should be brief and the time for the Question Period has expired.

Before we continue, I would like to welcome to the galleries today a delegation from the Barachoix Development Association with their President, Gerard Lee1and Co-ordinator, Francis Lucas. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! NOTICE OF MOTION MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Provincial Archives And The Management 0:1; Public Records." MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: The hon. the Minister of Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce bills entitled, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act," "An Act To Amend The City Of Corner Brook Act," and "An Act To Amend The St. John's Assessment Act." 111 0

March 22, 1983 Tape 487 EC - 2 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. DINN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : and Manpower. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Labour MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, this is in answer to question number twenty, asked by the hon. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) on the Order Paper of March 15, 1983. It is basically the same question that was asked last year. The question is: List the names and salaries of executive assistants, parliamentary assistants and public relations specialists appointed to the minister's staff for the fiscal years 1979, 1980, 1981 and 1982.

The answer is the same as last year. The ~nly addition I would put this year is there were no, nor are there any, parliamentary assistants or public relations specialists on the minister's staff. MR. SIMMS: Last year there were none, this year there are none more. MS VERGE: MR. SPEAKER: Education. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. The han. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the reply to questiQn number thirty-seven on the Order Paper of March 17th. It is basically the same question as that directed to my colleague, the Minister of Labour and Manpower, askin? 1 1 1 1

March 22,1983 Tape No. 488 ah-1 MS VERGE: for the names and salaries of executive assistants,etc.,on my staff from 1979 to 1982. And the answer is that I have one special assistant and this gives her name and the salary amount for the four years in question. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: In answer to Question No. 30 appearing on the Order Paper of March 17th by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary), the question asking to table all correspondence between the federal and provincial governments concerning the establishment of a boxing commission in Canada.

SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMS: The answer is to my knowledge there has been no correspondence between federal and provincial governments concerning the establishment of a boxing commission in Canada. Part two, what provincial action has been taken on this matter? Well 1 obviously, Mr.Speaker, there has been none. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL : Motion 3, Mr. Speaker.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Public Service Commission Act,l973," carried. (Bill No. 21) On motion, Bill No. 21 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion No. 2. Motion, the han. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, ;,An Act Respecting Pension Benefits," carried. (Bill No. 7) 1 1 1 2

:IL Ma -rch 22,1983 Tape No. 488 ah-2 On motion, Bill No. 7 read a first time, ordered read a seconq time on tomorrow. MR.MARSHALL: Mot .ion No. 4 • Motion, the han. the Minister of Public Works and Services to introduce a bill, "Ail. Act To Amend The Pippy Park Commission Act,'' carried. (Bill No.30) On motion, Bill No. 30 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion No. 5. Mqtion, the han. the Minister of Fisheries to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fishing Ships (Bounties) Act," carried. (Bill No. 8) 1 1 1 3

March 22, 1983 Tape 489 PK - 1 On motion, Bill No. 8 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. the Premier to introduce a ~ill, "An Act To Amend The Status Of Women Advisory Council Act," carried. (Bill No. 20). On motion, Bill No. 20 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. President of the Coancil to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Leaseholds In St. John's Act," carried. (Bill No. 11). On motion, Bill No. 11 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorr~;.

ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion,that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : MR. NEARY: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Chairman, I have been two days in a row trying to worm out of the Premier,who is the head of the administration 1where in the estimates, where in the Budget is the provision to minimize the impact of plant rationalization on our communities as a result of restructuring in the process~ng sector of the Newfoundland and Labrador fishery which falls under provincial jurisdiction.

I hope I never again in this Province hear it said in the media that the processing sec"bor is not provincial jurisdiction. It is provincial jurisdiction. 1 1 1 4

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 490 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: And the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins),when he read his Budget in this House on Budget Day 1 told the House and told the people of this Province, as a matter of fact I think it is on Page 18 of the Budget - I am not quite sure of the page now but it is in there - the Budget provides for financial provisions to minimize the impact of plant rationalization. I have asked two days in a row for the Premier to tell me where I can find that in the Budget.

My colleagues and I have searched and scrutinized the Budget from cover to cover and we have not been able to find anywhere in that Budget where there is funding to soften the b_low, funding to cushion the blow of restructuring the processing sector · on the communities that are living off the deep sea fishery. Mr. Chairman, we can only assume after going through the Budget with a finetooth comb that there is no such provision,even though the Minister of Finance told us in his Budget that there was a provision.

Now I will ask the Minister of Finance, the gentleman ·who made the statement,to show me in that Budget, to show this House and to show the people of this Province where the funding is to take care of the rationalization on our communities. We can only assume that there is no provision and that the administration is expecting Ottawa, the Government of Canada, to come to its rescue. And if we assume that, Mr.

Chairman, then we have to also assume that this government, this administration have a commitment from the Government of Canada, that this adminstration have known for some time the plan for restructuring and they will not tell the people, especially the people in the commmunities of Fermeuse, Burin, St. Lawrence, Grand Bank, Gaul tois, Ramea and 1115

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 491 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Harbour Breton. They are sitting on the information the same as they did with the lay-offs at Corner Brook. They are covering up the information the same as they did with the closing of the Burin fish plant when the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) knew for months in advance that Burin was going to close, and the Premier knew and they sat on the information. They are sitting on the information the same as they sat on a $60 million deficit in current account in the 1982/83 fiscal year, which will end the 31st. of this month.

They sat on that information, they covered up that information. Incidentally,I am hoping to bring into this House shortly a speech that was made by the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) when he left the Moores' Administration in connection with the financial position of this Province. Some interesting stuff in that speech, when the debt at the time,I believe, the provincial debt, ~1as running around $800 million or $900 million. And the Minister without Portfolio, the President of the Council, the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) stood in this House and expressed shock and concern over the enormity of the public debt. And I hope I will have that for tomorrow if we get a chance to qiscuss the budget or interim supply. So I can remind the han. gentleman of what he said .at that time. But, Mr. Chairman, getting back to the fishery: It would appear to me that the administration is depending on Ottawa to - MR. TULK: They have opted out. MR. NEARY: Yes, they have opted out. As I said yesterday, they have abrogated their jurisdiction to Ottawa. But, Mr.

Chairman, here is the most evil thing of all that is happening, that this administration are now laying the ground­ work for another confrontation with Ottawa, another major 111 6

" March. 22, 1983 Tape No. 491 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: confrontation with Ottawa. That is what they are 'doing.· The Piemi .er told us here in the House yesterday that the adminis .trat:i.on, before they reveal their plan, which they only started to put together last Wednesday, I am told they went off to a meeting in Ottawa recently with a plan on a piece o£ paper that did not mean anything, . and then they were told to go and get an accounting firm to see if it was feasible, if it was practiQal, and they had to rush out and get Price Waterhouse in a hurry to put together some information for them. They went ill-prepared - DR. COLLINS: Is that an accurate

interpretation? MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: MR. · NEARY: That is an accurate

interpretation. Totally accurate? They went ill-prepared. The plan was ill-conceived. It was just a plan that they scribbled down on paper like a kindergarten student would do in school. It did not mean anything. 111 7

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 492 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: And so we were told yesterday by the Premier that last week they started their plan, Mr. Chairman, and that they were going to wait until all the other parties had announced what they were going to do before this administration revealed their plan on a matter that comes under their care, under provincial jurisdiction. That is what the Premier told us yesterday.

The reason they are sitting back and waiting, of course, they want to hear the union's reaction, the company's reaction, the federal government's reaction,and then they will be able to attack and be critical as they have always been. They have no plans themselves, they do not intend to do anything, Mr. Chairman, all the~want to do is criticize. Th~y have no plans of their own. They have no process to restructure the processing sector of the Newfoundland and Labrador fishery ,; instead the game they are playing is wait. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Chairman, I sometimes wonder if members of the administration from the Premier down were not greatly relieved that the Newfoundland Appeals Court ruled that Canada awned the offshore resource. I believe they were greatly relieved. And do you know why they were relieved, Mr. Chairman? They were relieved because they still did not have to do anything themselves and th~y .could still criticize and condemn and squabble with the federal government. And they are playing th .e same game now with the Newfoundland fishery.

They are laying back and waiting for everybody else to announce their strategy or their plan when the matter falls under the care of that administration over there. And then they will be able to enter into combat again with the federal government. That is the strategy they have laid out for themselves 7 t'hat is what they are planning, Mr. Chairman. 111 8

' March 22, 1983 Tape No . 492 SD - 2 MR. NEARY : And the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) now \vill stand after I take my seat and will not be able to tell this House, will not be able to open up the budget,asi asked the bon . gentleman to open up his budget/ and say, 'Look, on page so- and-so, item so- and-so, is where you will find the funding to minimize the impact of plant rationalization on our communities ' , •' . 1119

March 22, 1983 Tape 493 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: statement that the han. gentleman made in this House the day he read his Budget. Mr. Chairman, the government has been charged with lack of economic management by a professor of international business over here at Memorial University and the only reply so -far, especially yesterday by the· Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) - and I must say that I was rather taken back - the only reply so far has been abuse. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! The han. member's time has expired. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for St. John's West. MR. BARRETT: Thank you, Hr. Chairman • I would like to have a few words if I might on this Budget document, particularly as it relates to health care costs in this Province. There seems to be a fair bit of controversy surrounding us these days from a couple of notable people outside this House, notably Dr. Guy from the Newfoundland Medical Asso~iation and Ralph Moore, the Administration of the Health Sciences Complex and a few others.

It is unfortunate indeed that these people have chosen to probably create a false sense of purpose in the Budget as it relates to this government's intentions with respect to the health care system of our Province. It is interesting to note, Mr. Chairman, that last year, the total amount that was granted to board operated hospitals - there are thirty-four board operated hospitals in this Province and these comprise probably the largest hospital facilities that we have, 1120

March 22, 1983 Tape 493 EC - 2 MR. BARRETT: including the Health Sciences Complex, St. Clare's, the Grace, Waterford, Janeway, Carbonear, Grand Falls, Gander and so on. These board operated hospitals, in the Province, last year operated with a current account expenditure budget of $271 million. This year, in spite of all the sabre rattling that has been going on in various boards across this Province and among a few ill-informed people onthe Medical Association, what has been granted as a result of this Budget for current operating is $304,600,000.

Now, in addition to that there is a Capital Works equipment allocation for the Health Sciences Complex of a further $4 million and, in addition, further capital facilities throu2hout the Province of $16 million. It seems that these people - you sort of get into a situation in which you have a major hospital run by a board and administrator and staff and it seems the more you want to offer them the more they want to grasp for additional revenues. 1121

March 21, 1983 Tape No . 494 MJ - 1 MR. H. BARRETT: There should be some undertaking made to try and resolve this situation. An Lncre~se in the current account expenditure budget from $271 million to $304 million is, in my estimation, a very adequate allocation to this very important health care service. There is no question in my mind that these boards should well be able to operate within the context of these amounts. There is always argument, Mr. Chairman, for more monev pa:t't,i,cul~rly when you talk about health care or education, or other social programmes.

It is interestinq to note that this Province is not unique in addressing these rising costs in health care. In the Medical ·post of January, 1983,a rather detailed

article has outlined the drastic cuts that are taking place, cuts, Mr. Chairman, not increases to the extent of 12 or 15 per cent,but actual cuts in medical budgets throughout all of Western Europe and throughout ·- . - North America. This is in addition to Canada. Throughout Canada as a whole, West Germ~ny, Belgium, the United Kingdom, throughout this whole world, the free world, there is a great amount of attention given to the health care problems that are arising in our society, Cuts are being made in budgets in other provinces, in other jurisdictions and in other countries.

In this Province we realize that we have some way to go to bring the health care level up to a national standard,However, this budget,! think,fully addresses the commitment of this government in doing ail that it can within its limited resources to address this very definite problem. I would like to address your attention, Mr. Chairman, to the Budget Speech delivered by our Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) which states, 'Given the importance and sensitivity of our health care system, government intends to initiate a major study of the whole area of hospital 1122

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 494 MJ - 2 MR. B. BARRETT: operating costs. The purpose of this study will be to weigh the cost of maintaining · hospital services as they are presently structured against our ability to finance the system from existing or available revenue sources' . Mr. Chairman, I hope that this study aoes beyond the purpose as stated here . I think an independent evaluation of productivity of the administration 1that is done independent of government by these various hospital boards,shoulq be undertaken at the same time . .. 1123

March 22, 1983 Tape 495 PK - 1 MR. BARRETT: This government and the people of this Province are responsible for funding 100 per cent the operations of theseboard operated hospitals. As far as I am concerned,these hospital Boards should be answerable to this Legislature and to the people of this Province for the expeditious allocation of funds that are transferred to them under their current and operating budgets. Mr.

Chairrnan,I would ask that this government extend the Terms of Reference outlined in this Budget address to ensure that an adequate and proper indepth study is made of the administrative aspects of operating these Board hospitals. Hr.

Chairman, there is no question in my mind that the health care services of this Province are being fully and adequately addressed by this government,and it is rather distressing to hear some of the people in the medical community take issue with the efforts that are being made under these periods of restraint,when government has shrinking revenue dollars at its disposal, but yet they are not content . to live within a 12 per cent to 15 per cent increase in current account revenues over last year. I feel that the services of these hospitals can adequately be maintained without massive layoffs.

And I think that a study properly initiated will · certainly address and prove this as a fact. MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas) : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: say at the outset Mr. Chairman, I would like to that I just listened very attentively to the hon. member for St. John's West .(Mr. Barrett)r And I believe the bottom line there was that there should be an investigation into the thirty-four hospital boards within this Province. Now if this is what the hon. ~e~er is saying 1 l would be the first to agree.If this government 1124

March 22, 1983 Tape 495 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: would undertake such an investigation! I think,probably, the layoffs could be averted. Probably we would not have sick people out in the various coves and bays around this Province today still waitin~ since early Januar~ for entrance into a hospital. We would not have this tod~y if such an investiggtion was carried out. MR. BARRETT: Do not go agreeinq with me too much or I am goinq to think there is something wrong over there. MR. WARREN: I compliment the member for bringing this forward and I would be the first to agree.

Why aoes not the government, the han. minister,come into the House tomorrow and say that there will be an investigation into the thirty-four board hospitals in this Province? :l-1r. Chairman, in all due respect to the han. member,I believe that Dr. Guy and Mr. Moores are two capable gentlemen and I think they should be congratulated for the efforts that they are making in the field of health care in this Province. 1125

March 22,1983 Tape No. 496 ah-1 MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, laat week I asked the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) a question concerning a programme for Labrador fishermen. And to go on the record, Mr. Chairman, I am going to read the question I asked the minister and his response.

The question was, 'I will ask the minister another question~ If the programme is in place for Labrador fisher-men,why has the minister's department approved payment out of this programme for six longliner fishermen from Conception Bay?' That was the question I asked the minister and at the time the minister's response was; 'Is the hon. gentleman referring to a gear replacement or gear subsidy programme which applies to all the Province and not just Labrador, all the Province; We had a gear subsidy programme in place for the last seven years,and not just for Labrador, so the people out in Conception Bay or the Burin Peninsula or Harbour Breton or Gaultois or any area of the Province can qualify'.

Now, Mr. Chairman, that was the minister's answer. Mr. Chairman, this headline, "The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador's eepartment of Fisheries inshore fishing gear programme for residents of Labrador," t:his is a Department of Fisheries documentation, and it says here, Name - the name of the person is there and the address. The address says, 'Carbonear, Newfoundland', ~this is for residents of Labrador.

This is a full report filledout by the minister's officials and it says, 'Inshore fishing gear programme for residents of Labrador,' and the name of the individuaJ is there and the address says Carbonear, Newfoundland. Now, Mr. Chairman, the first question is, verify details of fishing experience and the period as a resident of Iabrador carnents. Here is the camerit, Mr. Chairman; 'Mr. So and So - I will not say the man's name, is a resident of Carbonear'- now this is from the 1126

March 22, 198·3 Tape No. 496 ah-2 MR.WARREN: minister's officials'but he comes to Labrador, -Vincent Island in Labrador, to fish each season. ' Now, Mr. Chafrman, he comes dm·m to Labrador for two months each fishing season to fish and he reaps from a programme that . is assigned to Labrador fishermen. Mr. Chairman, this same gentleman fishes longer in other parts around the Island than he does in Labrador and still ·~all he qualifies for a programme that is instituted for Labrador ~ishermen.

Either the minister has misled the House in his answer to a question I asked him on March l6th,or the minister,which I would rather believe -I do not believe he misled the House~ ; i Does not the minister know what programmes are in effect in his own department. That probably could be correct,because the minister said there .Weregear programmes in place for the past seven years. This programme is not in place for fishermen from the Island portion of the Province. There are programmes in place, Mr. Chairman, but this programme is not in place 1127

March 22, l983 Tape No.497 JV - l MR. WARREN: for fishermen from the ~sland portion of the province.And furthermore,Mr. ChaiDman, the Minister's department has been paying out money illegally from a program that is not in effect for the Newfoundland fishermen and,for the record, Mr. Chairman, I think it was $906.00 that was paid to this individual fisherman. MR. STAGG: $906.00? MR. WARREN: $906.00 out of a program 1 anc this $906.00 could have helped many a fisherman to offset the blunder that the Minister's department made with 217 fishermen along the Labrador coast last year 1 where they had to pay back UIC.

Mr. Chairman 1that $906.00 could have helped put bread and butter on the plates of some of the fishermen in Lab~~d~r;~hich the Minister's department has taken off by incorrectly calculating expenses on the fishe.I:Illen's contributions.

Not only is the Minister's department making blunders, making mistakes ' and causing r ---~--- .. . - hardship for the fishenren by their having to repay UIC but on the . ·-· - other hand 1 a program that the Minister's department has in fact put in place for fishermen in Labrador, not only have ,...._ -- -- ---- they paid other fisheDmen from outside Labrador from this program - --~· -_:__ __ ---·d I but,as of the Budget last week and the Minister of Finance's (Dr. Collinsl - mid-term or mid-year review in November now the program is disbanded altogether. Why is it disbanded Mr. Chairman?

The reason it is disbanded is ------- because the Minister never had the sense and the fortitude to see that the program was run properly. The program was not run properly, in the first place,because _it was not paid to the fishermen who were entitled to be paid under that programme, ~~r. Chairman. Mr. Chairman I have advice for the Minister~ T.he Minister got off in his little cocky way 1128

March 22, ~983 . Tape No. 497 JV - 2 MR. WARREN: by saying that he was surprised the hon. member did not know anything about the program for the Labrador fishermen. Maybe I should advise the hon. Minister of Fisheries lMr. Morgan) _ that it was this gentleman right here,when he worked with his department, who drew up the guidelines for this program.

Probably, the Minister of Fisheries does not know that,but the guidelines for this program were drawn up by this gentleman right I here to help bring in a program for the Labrador fishermen. ~ut as soon as the Minister saw an opportune time :--- he sai:a; 'to hell with the L·abrador fishermen, let us give it to fishermen elsewhere.' .. This is what is happeni _ng to this program,Mr. Chairman, the Minister has abused it. And not only that,every capacity that that Minister has been in ,- he has been in Highways,Mr. Chairman, he has contravened - - .l the Public Tendering Act, he wrote to a Judge one time. Mr.

Chairman, this Minister has continually been doing things in his department that is unbecoming of a Minister of the Crown. and I believe that Minister · 1129

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 498 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: should be chastised by the Premier. Why, I wonder, has not the Premier chastised the hon. minister like he chastised the membe~ for Trinity North (Mr. Brett)? No, Mr. Chairman, the minister knows that this programme is not used to the full benefit of the Labrador fishermen. Now it has been disbanded altogether and it might be pointless to talk about it, Mr. Chairman. But any other programmes within the minister's department, let us use the programmes wisely, let us not abuse the funding that is coming out of the minister's department. And with that, Mr.

Chairman, I am sure that my hon. colleagues are going to have a few words to say but, again, I have to reiterate, use the programme properly and then the minister will not receive any complaints from me as a member representing Labrador. Nor will he receive any complaints from any one of my colleagues, from any district, if the minister would only use programmes and funds that are allotted in the proper manner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas): The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Chairman, r want to comment on the last two Opposi~ion speakers in this debate on the estimates, on the granting of Interim Supply. First of all,with regard to the Le~der of the Opposition 1 s comments about th .e fact that somebody seems to know that there is a plan in place to close down fish plants in Newfoundland,. well, I certainly hope that the hon. gentleman in his tactic this morning on CBC 1 that people will see through exactly wha _t h.e is up to. He came on CBC this morning and said: 1The peck$ord government is closing down Burin, closing down Grand Bank, 1130

!o!: March 22, 1983 Tape No. 498 SD-2 MR. MORGAN: closing down Gaultois, closing down Fer.meuse' and on he goes. MR. TOBIN: Who said? MR. MORGAN: The Leader of the Opposition this morning on CBC, trying to get the people down on the South Coast to believe that this government is closing down fish plants. Now, Mr. Chairman, it is very obviously a tactic to try to get their colleagues in Ottawa, who find themselves in deep, deep water right now, troubled water, the troubled waters created by Dr. Kirby over the last number of months in his restructuring plan for the large companies.

And there is no good in him trying to get the Premier to say c.ertain things during Questimn Period, like he tried today, to again leave the impression that we are agreeing and we support and we do this and we do that. The fact is that the company concerned, number one, the Lake Group, decided they wanted to close Grand Bank; number two 1 they wanted to close Gaultois. The hon. gentleman has always kept on saying, 'Oh, the people of the communities did not have any say in this'.

Well, I just came from a meeting with the delegation from Gaultois, a iarge delegation, and with my colleague and friend who is now gone to a second meeting, in this case involving the company,the Lake Group. And that large delegation from Gaultois carne to town today for what reason? I think it is the third or fourth meeting with me as Minister of Fisheries for the Province, 11 31

March 21, 1983 Tape No. 499 MJ - 1 . MR. J. MORGAN: to talk about the fish plant in their community-And the delegation came in led by the MHA for the area, for the Gaul to is area, to find out exactly what is the situation. And, Mr. Chairman, because -and I say again because -because nobody else has told them, today I told them the facts. They left my office this afternoon knowing for the first time the full facts about at least one plant, Gaultois. Now1let us lay Gaultois on the table this afternoon and start with that one plant, Gaultois.

Some months ago the Lake Group came in and said, 'We are going to close Gaultois.' Mr. Peckford and his government said, 'You are not going to close Gaultois and here is why. Because we will put forward money to upgrade the plant in Gaultois.' And we did. And a quarter of a million dollars was spent this past year to upgrade the plant in Gaulrois. But lo and behold,later on, about two or three months after, along comes Michael Kirby receiving briefs and submissions from all concerned, and who·comes in again with a major brief to the Kirby Task Force? The Lake Group Company.

And what did they say about Gaultois? 'We want to close Gaultois and we recommend to Dr. Kirby's federal Task Force that Gaultois be close'd.' That the community of Gaultois be closed and do what? ~ut on a ferry boat and transport the people over to Harbour Breton • We may be able to keep Harbour Breton open.' Or, 'We will resettle the people from Gaultoi$.1 Can you imagine thatr resettle the people from Gaultois. N.ow those are the facts of life. And lo and behold who accep:ted that? It was a federal government task force that accepted and said, 'Yes, Mr, Eburne, of the Lake Group, you are right.

We will look at resettling Gaultois.' Now,it has never been said before until today but those are the facts of life on one plant. .And if the Opposition wants to 1132 . -

March 21, 1983 Tape No. 499 MJ - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: get the facts on all the plants they will get them in turn. So, we said to the company, 'You are going to recommend the closedown of the Gaultois plant despite the fact we spent a quarter of a million dollars last year and we put forward funds to upgrade the plant'? You only lost a very teeny,weeny percentage of your overall losses in Gaultois.

You did not lose millions of dollars, you did not lose hundreds of thousands of dollars, you lost a few thousand dollars in Gaultois, but you want to clo13e the plant.' Solo and behold Michael Kirby accepted the recommendation of Mr. Eburne and his group, the new head of the Lake Group Company1, accepted the recommendation and put it forward to where? Where ;l.s it gone now? It is gone to the very powerful fed.eral. Cabinet Committee .. 1133

March 22, 1983 Take 500 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: And suddenly when the Opposition Leader (Mr. Neary) gets quizzing the Premier and making comments as he just did about 'Where is the government standing on those plants?' he is only doing it because he knows tha~ there is a plan. - and part of that plan I just disclosed - there is a plan to close at least one plant: and I will say no more at the present time, close Gaultois and let them resettle. Let them move over by ferry boat - there is no boat there now - and go to work in Harbour Breton. HR. TOBIN: The Liberal philosophy, boy! MR. MORGAN: Now, Mr.

Chairman, a delegation left my office this afternoon. The han. the Leader of the Opposition wants to know where this government stands? Well, I will tell you, Mr. Chairman. A delegation from Gaultois, a large delegation and a member left and now are meeting down with the Lake Group officials. They know where we stand on that one plant because they were told this afternoon in no uncertain terms where we stand, , and where we stand the government at Ottawa will know on Thursday. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: They will know on Thursday where we stand and what we think about Gau+tois.

And as long as the people of Gaultois know that-is our most important concern. We are not too keen on letting the Opposition know what our plans are. Why should they know? But as long as the people of Gaultois know that is the concern of this gov~rnment and they know where we stand. So the han. the Leader of the Opposition can try to twist around the restructuring all he likes and go on CBC and say, 'Oh, the Newfoundland Government is closing down the plants, closing' their responsibilities. The processing sector is 1134

March 22, 1983 Tape 500 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: the Newfoundland Government's responsibility. They must find the money to keep the plants open.' Well, as mentioned in Questi"on Period today, What have we done about the processing sector? Does _anybody see a great surplus in our Budget this year? No, we see a deficit. Why? Because the overall economy of our country is having a devastating effect on this little Province of Newfoundland with limited revenues. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: We do not have the industrialized base to get the revenues from.

We do not have the sources of funding that are required to help the industries that need help. But what have we done though? We put $24 nillion last year into the medium-sized companies. In the last three or four years we have put $65 million into the large companies ~ this Newfoundland Government only, a total of $65 million going to the large companies, from this little government here, and $24 million into the medium-sized companies, and $1·9. 5 million to the fishermen through the loans and grants or bounties paid to them, all from this government, all from this government.

And that is in my figures ·approximately $100 million - $100 million! Now, where has the federal government been in all these problems? I will tell you where they have been. When we had to go to Ottawa and to Toronto and to Montreal - and I went to all three meetings and' sat down wi~Michael Kirby and the head people of the Bank of Nova Scotia and the company. Lake Group,at the time the Lakes were involved for a while as well, we finally squeezed a $13 million government guarantee out of the federal government. Mr. LeBlanc was then Minister of Eisheries.

We finally squeezed - How did we squeeze it? we said, 'Well, we will invest $5 million. We 1135 . -

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 501 NM - 1 MR. MORGAN: will not give a government guarantee of $5 million, we will invest, equity investment of $5 million, providing you put up a $13 million government guarantee, $13 million, and providing Grand Bank will not be closed. At the time we said firmly, Grand Bank must not be closed and here is why, and we also said, Gaultois must not close at that time and we said why. And that was the plan then, that was apprmximately two years ago.

So based on that the federal government put $13 million into the processing sector of • • -a ~ • the deep-sea fishery, and the deep-sea fishing corrpanies. --· •• ···----.~ T' $13 million versus eighty odd, into the processing sector, by this government here. So, Mr. Chairman, it is simply not going to work. I am convinced the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is indeed aware, I have listened very carefully, is indeed aware.-maybe he is aware of what is happening in Ottawa. MR. TOBIN: What is that, resettle Newfoundland? MR. MORGAN: Maybe he is aware of what is happening in Ottawa. MR.

TOBIN: He was part of the resettlement programme before. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! Order, please! The hon. minister's time has elapsed. MR. MORGAN: By leave? By leave? SOME RON. MEMBERS: By leave. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. No. MR. MORGAN: No,no by leave. MR. CHAIRMAN: Leave is not granted. The hon. Leader of the Opposition 1136

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 501 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the last remark made by the hon. gentleman, I think I will jQst ignore that becaQse it is beneath contempt, Mr. Chairman, and just goes to show how desperate the hon. gentleman is. Mr. Chairman, I can understand nowwhy Professor Montgomery- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: - said that he prefers to ignore the hon. gentleman, that he would prefer to ignore an ignoramous as far as the management of our resources is concerned, and debate with the Premier. I can understand why the professor on international business can - MR.

TOBIN: Did you have a meeting this morning? MR. MORGAN: ·-(inaudible) this morning (inaudible). MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we are talking about a very serious matter here and if the member for Burin­ Pla_gentia west (Mr. Tobin) is not interested in the future of his own co~unity of Burin ·- •• 4_.. __ _ MR. TOBIN: I am more interested in it than : you are. MR. NEARY: - then I would submit that Your Honour enforce the rules - MR. TOBIN: You just heard what the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) said, resettle the people. MR. NEARY: - enforce the rules of the House.

Thirty times in one afternoon here, thirty times the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin} had to be asked by the Chair to restrain himself. He was on the brink of becoming violent and the - MR. TOBIN: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. CALLAN: If I do you had better run. Order, please! Is that a threat? 1137

March 22, 1983 Tape No . 501 NM- 3 MR . NEARY: I believe, Mr. Chairman, that is contrary to the rules of the House. You cannot threaten a member of this House or try to intimidate a member in the carrying out of his duties in this House, Mr. Chairman. We have had enough of that. We have had too much of it. And the Premier may want to lower the decorum of this House, ~~ . Chairman, but I hope that some members on the opposite side wLll not follow his bad example. 113 8

March 22, 1983 Tape 502 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the statements just made by the so-called Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) are incoherent. MR. MORGAN: No,they are not. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, they are a camouflage, they are fabricated statements. MR. TOBIN: What about resettlement? MR. NEARY: The fact of the matter is - let me go back to yesterday when I was asking the hon. Premier questions about the restructuring of communities, or the fishery in communities that are affected by the deep-sea fishery. I mentioned a number of communities, Mr.

Chairman, and the hon. gentleman in his reply skated and skirted around the issue. And today I followed up with some more very penetrating questions. Because now what the hon. gentleman has done, Mr. Chairman, he has divulged to this House, revealed to this House for the first time that he is aware, if not in full, he is aware of part of the restructuring of the fishery, the processing sector which comes under provincial jurisdiction. The hon. gentleman, as I suggested earlier in my remarks, Mr. Chairman, is now laying the groundwork for another major confrontation with the Government of Canada, with Ottawa.

And how did the hon. gentleman do it this afternoon? He said that Mr. Kirby accepted recommendations of the Lake Group of Companies. My understanding, Mr •. Chairman, of the Kirby Task Force was that the Kirby Task Force in their recommendations laid out a Canadian fishery policy~ For the first time in our whole history we have a fishery policy in Canada the same as we have an agricultural policy. I read the Kirby Tas~ Force report, Mr.

Chairman, very carefully and I would now ask the hon, gentleman, I will ask the Provincial Minister of Fisheries, if I can get his ear, to show me and show this Kouse where in 1139

March 22, 1983 Tape 502 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: the Kirby Task Force, where in their report did they accept the recommendation of the Lake Group of Companies? Where in the~r report? Tae hon. gentleman made a statement there a few minutes ago,I am now challenging him to back it up, to put the proof on the table of this House~ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! MR. NEARY : Not just get up and make irresponsible,wild, untrue statements, put up or shut up . I am asking the hon . gentleman now - Mr. Chairman, I want the Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) to show me and to show this House where in the Kirby Task Force report there is 1140

March 21, 1983 Tape No. 503 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: an indication that Mr. Kirby accepted the recommendations of the Lake Group of Companies. r•:here is it? The fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, it is not there. It is just words that rolled off the lips of the hon. gentleman in his usual irresponsible manner. Of course, Kirby, when he was holding hearings,received briefs from everybody, including the provincial government and the Opposition. I believe that Mr. Kirby should be commended for that, the Kirby Task Force should be commended for allowing input from all and sundry in this Province. Even though Mr.

Kirby was dealing with a matter that comes under provincial jurisdiction, he accepted briefs on 'items and matters that are the sole responsibility of this government, the provincial government. And so the hon. gentleman just made a statement, first of all,that he cannot back up, Mr. Chairman. I hope the media will not allow that statement to go unchallenged. They seem to be more interested in what Constitutional weapon I am going to ~se against the administration than they are in the hard questioning and the restructuring of the fishery which affects so many lives of people in this Province.

We are not the government. There is a limit to what we can do. I presume the letters a.nd the telegrams are pouring into the Premier's office protesting his actions and his strategies and his ineptness and his inability to govern this Province. Now,the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) also said this afternoon, a few moments ago in his remarks, that he had a delegation from Gaultois today and for the first time he told the people of Gaultais the truth.

Now,the han. gentleman confirmed again what r said earlier this afternoon~ that there is a lack of communications with the communities that are affected, that will be affected by the restructuring. And Gaultois did not come in to present the hon. gentleman with a plan, they came in fighting for their fish plant in their community. They 11 41

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 503 MJ - 2 MR. S'. NEARY: came in looking for information. They asked the hon. gentlem~n, 'What pl~ns do you have to save our fish plant? ' And the hon . gentleman could not tell them. The bon. gentleman should have admitted to that delegation ., ·man fashion, that he bas no plans, that it is the provincial government that is forcing the resettlement issue through the backdoor for Burin and Harbour Breton and Gaultois and Ramea and all these ·other communities. ,Mr.

Chairman, if the bon . gentleman had the courage of his convictions he would have told the people from Gauitois, man fashion, that he did not have a plan. I say to the hon. gentleman,and I state it categorically, that we on th~s side of the House feel that every fish plant should be"re­ opened that is now closed. ~~ether they are opened for social reasons or otherwise, they should be reope ·ned. MR . YOUNG: Tell, your buddies tb.at. MR;. NEAR.Y: Why should r tell my bil!ld.ies? It is the hon. gentleman's jurisdiction, it is the non.' gentleman's responsibility. 1142

March 22,1983 Tape No. 504 ah-1 MR.NEARY: Now, Mr. Chairman, we have smoked the hon. gentleman out on Gaultois, can we smoke him out on Burin? MR. WARREN: The Grand Banks, boy. MR.NEARY: No, we will deal with Burin first. Can we smoke the hon. gentleman out now on Burin? And , Mr. Chairman, while the han. gentleman is answering me on Burin let him state to this House, here this afternoon, the plan that he has to save that fish plant in Gaultois. What plans do the provincial administration have? And it is their jurisdiction. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aywlard}: elapsed. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The han. member's time has I will come back at it again, The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR.MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman can try all he wants this afternoon to squeeze out of us ~hat we are going to say to the federal on Thursday or Friday of this week,but he is not going to be successful. But I said before that the people in the respective communities have had sufficient input with us. We have had numerous meetings with them. Now the hon. gentleman is asking me a question as to why it is that the people of Gaultois were not told the truth and the facts about the situation until today.

Well, because the people of Gaultois have not been dealing with ·the Newfoundland government primarily on this issue. Why not? Because Mr. Trudeau in his wisdom or lack of wisdom-I am assuming in his wisdom in this case 1because he took one of the best civil servants he had and he appointed a task force on the fishing industry to try to overcome some of the problems in the large companies. Now, Mr. Chairman, the task force heard delegations and heard briefs from delegations 1143

March 22,1983 Tape No. 504 ah-2 MR.MORGAN: from all over the Province who are affected with regard to those large companies. The delegations met with Mr. Kirby on a number of occasions, the delegations met with the companies on a number of occasions.

And surely when a company has a plan to operate, or not to operate in this case,a plant1surely they have the obligation and responsibility to tell the people who work in that plant either through their union, which would be the appropriate mechanism, or directly to. the people through their council,or to the local committees established in each respective community what their, the company, what their plan is for the operation or lack of operation in the respective plants.

So the company was making their plan of operation to the Kirby Task Force, the right vehicle, the appropriate vehicle, the proper vehicle,established by the federal government,to talk about what they had planned, in this case -and I will keep on one topic only today, on Gaultois. The others will come in due time. But Gaultois, they heard what the co~panies had to say. After they heard what the companies had to say about taking people from Gaultois and putting them into Harbour Breton and closing down the Gaultois plant, after the Kirby Task Force-heard all this,then they met with the people from the area.

Well,the Kirby Task Force, when they met with a delegation from Gaultois and a very good argument was put forward by the people, why was it not then made known that , 'Look,the company is telling us, the Kirby Task Force, that they have to close your plant,and here is why,and we want to hear your argument as to why 1144

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 505 SD - 1 MR. MORGAN: the plant should be kept open? That was not done in the process. The whole process did not evolve that way. The people of Gaultois were always led "to believe that their plant would be kept open, always! Well,surely,because the process established by the federal government was the Kirby Task Force,and because the people were depending on the Kirby Task Force to deal with that problem then was it not their obligation, not ours, the third party on the outside, to say to the people of Gaultois, 'We understand that your plant is going to be closed'?

But now it is down to a final wire and this government will indeed,after- the Premier said it in the House yesterday~nd I repeat now after we have now done all of our homework, we have done the homework on all the plants around the Province, we have done our homework on all the operations of Fishery Products, all the operations of the Lake Group, all the operations of John Penney and Sons and Nickersons in Nova Scoita. We have analysed the operations of all parties, all groups, all companies. We have looked at in detail the projections of the companies fo"r the future, the next four or five years.

We have done a thorough analysis and assessment of every bit of information available to us and now and only now are we in a position to go forward to the federal government and say, 'Gentlemen, here is our position'. And we are not going to tell the Opposition what our position is before we go to Ottawa, surely they would not expect that. MR. WARREN: Why not? MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, how ridiculous. It is too nonsensical to even respond to.

The fact is that we are going forward to Otta .wa and Ottawa understands the Newfoundland Government's position,th.at we are a goyerni!lent here that do not want to take a position, we do not ~nt to 1145 .-

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 505 SD - 2 MR. MORGAN: act irresponsibly, we want to do all our homework first and then make our decision known in the proper way, in a very rational way, sitting down with the government at government level. That is what we are doing. And we are not going to say to the Opposition or in this House -but I will get back again to the point about Gaultois.

The people were in today and I felt it was very appropriate for them to be told what is a possibility, '.'lhat may happen to them,based on what is being done through ' . the Kirby Task Force and based on what is being considered by people in Ottawa at this present time. Now the hon. Leader of the Opposition CMr. Neary) says, 'Well,what is wrong with the Newfoundland Government re-opening all of these plants'? I will tell you what is wrong, I said it before, we do not have the funds. We are not talking about $24 million, $84 million, we are talking about $100 million and more than $100 million.

We are talking about $200 million·and more. And if they are going to be helping out the companies,on the federal level, in other provinces, do we not as good Canadians deserve to get some assistance to provide jobs in the processing end of our industry as well? Surely we expect them to help us in a problem that is tOO gigantic financially for us to be able to handle, the same position as Nova Scotia finds itself in. MR. CHAIRMAN (HcNicholas): The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. H.ODDER: Mr.

Chairman, I want to ask the minister, and I am no expert on the deep-sea fish .ery, but what I want · to ask the minister,and it is a question that has been bothering me, is does this restructuring mean that some plants will close,or is it possible that under restructuring no plants will close? 1146 .

March 22, 1983 MR. HODDER: find out. MR. MORGAN: Tape 506 EC - l That is what I would like to Mr. Chairman, the people who are making the main decisions on restructuring are the people with the big dollars. And who are the few with the big dollars? Who are they? It is not Mr. Peckford, it is not the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), it is not the Newfoundland Government, it is not the Nova Scotian Government, it is not the companies for sure - we know it is not the companies~ the companies do not have the money. So who is goi~g to be able to call the shots?

The man who pays the piper calls the tune - the big bucks. And we are talking big bucks in Atlantic Canada, over $200 million coming in from somewhere, and it cannot come from here or from Nova Scotia or from the companies or from the banks. MR. WARREN: is for sure. MR. MORGAN: It cannot come from Neva Scotia, that The han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) says, 'Oh, the minister says it is in the report.' I did not say it was in the report. Mr. Kirby, when he filed his report, says,. "This is only the first phase of my work.

I will be now carrying on as engaged by the Government of Canada" - .to carry out what? The most important part of all,in my view, of his work­ to carry out the restructuring of the large companies who find themselves in financial difficulty beyond a point of return because the debtequity ratio is so great. That is what Mr. Kirby said. This report is a general report on all the matters pertaining to the fishery in general. nNow I am going to zero in and deal with the problems of the large deep-sea trawler companies." . And that report has not yet been made public.

But that report, if you call it a report, is in the form of dealing with as a 1147

March 22, 1983 Tape 506 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: task force the matters of restructuring the large companies. And I am saying again -and I have asked the Lake Group company this afternoon -when my colleague left the meeting with the delegation from Gaultois to go down to the Lake Group office, I told Mr. Eburne and Mr. Frank Michel, these two senior gentlemen with the Lake Group company - I said, 'Gentlemen, in the name of decency, you tell these people living in Gaultois what you want to do with Gaultois.

You tell them.' It is not the Newfoundland Gov~rnment that is closing down Gaultois, as was being said on the CBC this morning by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) in a very irresponsible way, that we are closing it down, Mr. Chairman. So I said to the company, 'In the name of decency,tell the people of Gaultois what you are planning to do with Gaultois, that you want to close down the Gaultois plant and move all the people from Gaultois into Harbour Breton to possibly keep Harbour Breton open and have a resettle­ ment programme. Tell them that. Tell them the facts.

Tell them the truth.' And my comment to the company was, 'I am no longer going to hide behind a curtain for you and your decision making,that you are making as a company.' 1148 . .

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 507 NM - 1 MR. MORGAN: So I am assuming, in the meeting now ongoing, the company is presently telling the people of Gaultois what they have told Mr. Kirby they want to do with Gaultois. And we will tell the federal governrnentr this g~vernment here,will tell the federal govenrnent through the Federal Cabinet Committee. MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas): Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. MORGAN: ~..R. NEARY: you are? Sit down. MR. MORGAN: MR. CHAIRMAN: Moutains. MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: By leave. By leave. By leave. Sit down, boy. Who do you think By leave.

The hon. member for Torngat One minute. Mr. Chairman, we will, as I said earlier, we will rnakekno~ our position on the restructuring of hhe companies, Gaultois and all other plants, when we sit down government to government. After doing all ?f our horne­ work, ·after looking at "lJ.l the ramifications, and all the best possible ways to help the fishing industry in this Province, the deep-sea fishery, we wi.ll do it government to government, and we will not be disclosing to the Opposition our plan before we do that. SOME HON. MEMBERS : H:ear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR.

WARREN: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I think it is shameful, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), and the federal committee that is set up, set in place, know what is going to happen to the fishery in this Province and the fishermen involved do not know. I think it is ridiculous, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister of Fisheries should come into this House and know what is happening. The man knows 1149

March 22, 1983 MR. WARREN: know what is happening . MR. MORGAN: MR . WARREN: knows. MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: Tape No. 507 NM- 2 what is happening, he has said it. They I did not say we k no~T what is happeninq. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) You know what is happening to Gaultois. Mr. Chairman, a point of order. Mr. Chairman, if the han. gentleman is going to quote me let him quote me accurately and correctly. What I said was I know what the companies have recommended to the Kiroy Task Force to do with a certain plan ·t. That is what I said. MR. NEARY: And they recommended it to you too.

They also recommended it to you. MR. WARREN: That is not a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I presume there is no point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN (Aylwardl: Order, please! I have to reserve judgeme~t on that point of order. I was not paying attention . I am terribly sorry. The bon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: What I said, Mr. Chairman, is the Minister of .Fisheries (Mr .

Morgan}, and the Premier of this Province, and the Federal Department of Fisheries and a committee that they have set up, between th .ose eight or nine gentlemen they know what is going to happen to the fisheries in our Province and the fishermen do not know. And this is what is really disheartening and disgusting. It is terrible to know that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) who is supposed to be as he said - and what I find so surprising is that the minister has not said as many good words about any other Minister of Fisheries as he has said about De Bane in the last while, so,therefore,the minister must know that De Bane and himself have concocted something that is going to have a detrimental effect on the fishery in this Province. 1150

March 22, 1983 Tape 508 PK-1 MR. WARREN: 'Now, Mr. Chairman, I think I am going to go from fisheries to rural development. I have not had the opportunity so far in this debate to bring out some concerns with the way the Department of Rural, Agricultural, and Northern Development has been administering funds under the Native People's Agreement. A while ago, Mr.

Chairman, the Nain Town Council and myself met with the minister's qepartment and it was disclosed at this meeting by the minister's officials that some $486,000 of federal/provincial money for the administration of services within the native communities, $486,000 of this money from the last fiscal year has been put in reserve while we have the worst kind of housing. In fact, I have a copy of a letter that went to the minister a while ago saying that Northern Labrador has the worst housing all across Canada, has the worst housing conditions all across Canada.

In fact, in January there was a Regional Two Committee meeting held in Nain, and just to emphasize my point - and I see the Min~ster of Finance (Dr. Collinsl looking at me and he is really concerned about what I am saying because he cannot really believe that a department of government would be treating people in such a terrible manner as the Department of Rural Development is treating the Native people in Labrador. Mr. Chairman, let me just let the Minister of Finance know what is happening.

"Whereas the Town of Nain" - this was a resolution which was passed in January's meeting, and the Minister of Rural Development has a copy of it - ·~ereas the Town of Nain has not received any funds for housing development from the Canada/Newfoundland Native ·People's Agreement since the 1979-1980 fiscal year.~ Now here are two years, Mr.

Chairman, and the Minister of Finance knows that this money has been passed down from Ottawa, passed down to the coffers of the provincial government, and Nain has one of the worst housin~ shortages in the whole of Canada and this government does not see fit to release funding 11 51 -

March 22, 1983 Tape 508 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: for the construction of homes in that I • Northern commun~ty. And it goes on further, Mr. Chairman, to say, "This letter is to advise that the Town Council of Nain fully supports this resolution and requests that the appropriate authorities take note of its contents and ensure that the demands of the resolution are met." Now, ~tr.

Chairman, all the resolution was saying is that, Look, for the love of human decency, for the love of protection of people, if you have the money there - you have already said publicly that you have $486,000 there in reserve - if you have the money there , in the name of de?ency and humanity release it so the people in Nain, and the people in Davis Inlet, and the people in Hopedale can have some kind of a roof over their heads . 11 52

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 509 MJ - 1 I " MR. G. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, the minister is going to get up very shortly and he is going to say - usually when I bring up anything about the department the minister does get up and respond and sometimes I do get some information from him in this way. But I would say he is going to get up this time and he is going to say - well, he is going to outline all the good things that the minister's department has done for Labrador.

Yes, I am sure the minister's department has done good things for Labrador however let us look at all the bad things that need to be looked after that the minister's department has! not done. Mr. Chairman, one thing the minister cannot say in all honesty is that I am shouting by myself this time. At the LIA Conference in Nain which officials of his department attended, it was loud and clear then to his Deputy Minister that the Labrador Inuit Association is concerned about the way funds have been administered.

At the combined councils in Labrador 1 the _member for Menihek (Mr. ~7alsh) , the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock), the hon. minister and myself were there, it came out loud and clear _- in fact a resolution came out of that conference . A resolution came out of both conferences,by the way. The combined councils even asked for an investigation into the administration of funding through his department, and I have asked, but the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheirner) carne back and said, 'No, it is a federal matter.' So, Subsequently I have gone to the federal authorities and 1 as far ·as I am concerned, I am not saying that the minister's department does not administer funds,what I am saying is I am sure,and the minister has to agree - I think he is going to get up and he is going to agree with me on one point - that the funds could be administered much better than they are at the present time. I think the minister will agree with that, it could be 1153

March 22, 1983 Tape No . 509 MJ - 2 M-~. G • WARREN : administered much better than it is now. With all respec~ to personell within the minister's department - and I ha'le been personal friends with them for a long, long time and will continue to be friends with them because I think they are a real good bunch of individuals - however, there is some break -off between the asseciations, the Town Councils - every one of the town councils in the dist .rict, the LIA, the combined councils of Labrador and the minister's department are at loggerheads with one another. Now, surely goodness if it is a problem of staff, of hi gher ­ up staff we should say to put it proper ly, 1154

March 22, 1983 Tape 510 EC - l MR. WARREN: if there is a problem, I am sure the minister has the authority, has the power - because the minister is the one who is getting the slap for things that are really not his fault. The minister knows there is a power struggle or a conflict between senior officials on his staff who can only see through one door,and town councils and other organizations in my district, and for some reason the people 1 are suffering because of this confrontation. The minister knows it. Combined councils who said it said it publicly in a resolution. The Labrador Inuit Association have said it.

So,therefore, I am sure the minister - I would ask him to seriously look at some possible way - I will guarantee the minister that I will do my part to come up with some means, some ways in which the funds in his department can be administered properly, and only adninistered through proper co-ordination and co-operation with the councils involved. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! MR. WARREN: I know, Mr. Chairman, that my time is coming to a close.

In closing, I know that the minister is going to jump to his feet and respond to me , and I hope that he will respond in a most positive manner with some ways to alleviate this confrontation between the higher staff in his department and the ' various communities and associations combined. DR. COLLINS: Would you please sit down and move the resolution. MR. WARREN: No way! MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1155

March 22, 1983 Tape 510 EC - 2 HR. GOUDIE: Hr. Chairman, I will just take up a couple of minutes of the Committee's time to respond to remarks made by my colleague from Labrador, the member for Torngat Hountains (Hr. Warren) and I should begin, Hr. Chairman, by suggesting that I take everything that he says seriously and in the tone and the manner in which I am sure he means it. I have some difficulty, Hr.Chairman, with the first figure that he presented in his comments, that is $486,000 which has been held back, I think was the suggestion.

It was a figure that was discussed in the meeting he referred to which was held several weeks ago in concert with my colleague, the Hinister of Municipal Affairs (Hrs. Newhook). And he suggests that these funds are withheld or held back in spite of drastic housing needs. Nain wants housing, Davis Inlet wants housing. All communities, I think, on the North coast and probably the South coast of Labrador, are in need of housing as well.

In any event, I will point out to the hon. gentleman that I have not been able to identify that particular figure myself but I will point out, as I did in the meeting, that some funds were 'withheld' -if that is the term that the hon. gentleman wants to use - in this present fiscal year because of the austerity measures that were taken in late 1982. But I want to point out as well, Hr. Chairman, that these funds have not been lost to the communities or to the government.

The federal funding under this particular agreement, the Native Peoples of Labrador agreement, can be carried over into the following fiscal year. And that is what has been done. I should also point out that 1156

March 22,1983 Tape No. 511 ah-1 MR GOUDIE: while I was attending,as he did, the closing two days of the first ever Labrador Winter Garnes at Goose Bay and- MR.WARREN: (Inaudible) MR.GOUDIE: I will not sidetrack yet. I will have a comment on that a little later on. While I was in the Happy Valley/ Goose Bay area I met with I cannot remember the specific name of the group,but it is the housing authority at least put in place by the communities under this particular agreement, the Native People's Agreement. I thought it was a very productive meeting.

There were four representatives from the North Coast of Labrador, no one from the community of Sheshatshit, but this was a group set up under the Labrador Inuit Association as opposed to all the communities along the coast, the zone 2 communities under the Native People's Agreement. I thought it was a very useful meeting. They presented a number of positions and a number of resolutions regarding housing or lack thereof on the North Coast of Labrador. I have taken these resolutions back with me and the staff are at the moment addressing them,as a matter of fact.

But we did agree,that is the group that I met with, and mysel~ that there are tremendous housing needs on the North Coast of Labrador in all communities, I think , covered under the agreement. Funds are in place and funds will be spent and the idea is to get as much expenditure - well,not as much expenditure in place, but to meet as many of the needs as possible beginning this particular construction year, as soon as the shipping season opens. The only thing that I cannot spell out for the han. gentlemen are the details,because they have not been worked out yet.

But I should also point out that there has been a great deal of co-operation by my 1157

March 22,1983 Tape No. 511 ah -2 MR.GOUDIE: colleague's division, the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Authority of his department ,who also are involved in the implementation of these housing programmes and will be involved in the future. It is just a question , I think, between the housing group on the North coast, my department, and the NALC ,o f working out the mechanism by which plans can be approved and put in place and the money spent . The desire and the willingness is there on the part of the communiti~s and government to get this money out and the housing needs met as quickly as possible.

The NIA , the gentleman from Torngat (Mr. Warren) suggested,is concerned about the administration of fund s 1158

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 512 MR. GOUDIE: and this was mentioned at a recent meeting in Nain, I believe, which my Deputy Minister, Mr. O'Reilly,attended. And he indicated that concern to me, amongst other concerns, and I find it a little difficult to address that particular concern not just under the Native People's of Labrador agreement, but also under the Conne River Native People's agreement. NM - 1 Charges can be made that we are not administering the funds correctly and countercharges can be made by me,or counterpoints made,that they are being charged correctly. The only thing I can point out, Mr.

Chairman, and I will conclude my comments with this, is that since I have been minis ·ter o~ this particular department, I think it is four years now, and responsible for the administration of native people's funds, my department has not been mentioned at all in the Auditor General's Reportwhich, I suppose,says something about the way that things have been going.

Also of course 1 I think certainly the House--of Assembly is aware, and perhaps the general public of the Province, I am not sure, that a little over a year ago the senior government representative in Labrador, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Northern Development, was actually investigated by the RCMP. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible}. MR. GOUDIE: Yes.

Based on certain ·allegations made by someone or other,that there was inapproiate action being taken in terms of administering the agreement and spending money., And as far as we know,he is the only Assistant Deputy Minister of Government in any department who has a forty-five page report by the RCMP which says he is doing his job. In other words 1 he was cleared. 1159 . .

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 512 NM - 2 MR . GOODIE : What I would like to do though, if the bon . gentleman is agreeable, one of these days, perhaps in Committee, is to sit down and discuss the administration of funds, if I can use that term, in a little more detail, and get some specific concerns and I would be more than happy to address them . The · comment about the senior staff, I do not kn ow.

One of the difficulties I have just gone through with administering the Native People's of Conne River agreement was that there was a great deal of debate over the last yea r about whether or not there should .be - I think it was a $47,000_, or S67,000 perhaps, administration charge against that particular agreement. 1160 . .

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 513 MJ ... l MR. J. GOUDIE: And the suggest~on from Conne River was that we did not know how to administer the funds in the first place, the federal government should do it. But that is not the way it turned out, I do not know, the senior sraff, should we allow the communities to hire the staff for the civil service of the Prov~nce or the publ~c service? I do not know. I do not think we should, Obviously, we have a difference of opinion and there it ~s. ::Cf I have a couple of more minutes, Mr. Chai~an, l just wanted to make - PREMIER PECKFORD : Heave it out of you. MR.

GOUDIE: ::C have never been know, with due respects to the Premier, to heave it out of me but r wi~l see what I can do. I di.d want to bring to the attention of the House of A,ssembly, Mr. Chairman, something which unfortunately the only media across the Provi .nce did not over the last week, that is the CBC, did not see fit to provide very much coverage to the first ever Labrador Winter ~- SOME HON. t-1EMBERS: Hear, hear! PREHIER PECKFORD: ~·1ho provided all the monev for that? Who provided all the money? MR. GOUDIE: I am getting to that, Sir. My colleague the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. L.

Simms) represented the Government of the Province at the opening of the games, I was unable to attend due to some commitments in Ottawa, and through his department and my department the provincial government put up all of the funding, $350,000 for these first ever games. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR,. GOUDIE: There was some misunderstanding for a while,on some people's part,that some of the funding 11 61 -

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 513 MJ - 2 MR. J. GOUDIE: may have come out o~ the Nat~ve Peoples of Labrador Agreement and the gentleman from Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) and l have dipcussed that matter and that is not the case, not a cent came out of it. As a matter of fact, I should ment~on s~ec~f~cally Mr. David Hollett who Chaired the Co-ordinating Committee and all of his workers and organizers who put so much effo~t into this. ep until the games closed Saturday evening th~y had been about an hour ahead of

schedule on every event and were under budget - that is approximatel~ we do not have the final figures in yet,but a~proximately $20,000 under budget, we understood, although come Saturday evening, or more correctly Sunday morning, the weather came down and there are athletes, I guess, ~eing housed and accomodated in Happy Valley - Goose Bay now, so we may break about even, I do not know. But I think I should also point out that there were a couple of interesting things.

For instance, the oldest competitor who took part, sixty-one year old Henry John Williams from the Coast of Labrador, Cartwright, the Premier may recall him, won a gold medal. MR. SIMUS: Yes, Sir. He sure did. MR. GOUDIE: That is right. ~And the youngest competitor,who just happened to be from my district, from my home town in Mud Lake, happened to win a gold medal as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GOUDIE: I think the figure was- 1162

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 514 SD - 1 MR. HISCOCK: (~naudible} gold, also. MR. GOUDIE: That is right. I· think 561 athletes converged on Happy Valley_ - Goose Bay for a week, the largest provincial meet ever as.sembled and co-ordinated, as I understa.nd i_t 1 apart from a national thing, and everything went completely . smooth, on schedule, under budget, thanks: to the fund.tng of the provincial government, thanks.· to the co-opera.ti,on of a great many people,and especially thanks: to th.e people of Happy Valley - Goose Bay and all other communities of Labrador wh.o were represented. SOME HON.

MEMBER.S: If.ea.r, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Aylwardl: The hon; member ;for 'l:orngat · Mountains. MR. WARREN: ~. Chaiman, it is not very often that I give bouquets. However,in this i,nsta.nce 1 I have to agree with. the hon. Mini.s.ter at R,ural, A,gricul tural and North.ern Development (Mr. GoudieL that thi.s wa.~ a superb job done by Mr. Hollett an.d hi_s· contingent in Happy Valle.y - Goose Bay. They did a ;Eanti.stic jol:>. It was unfortunate that th.e Preil}ier co11ld not be there :!;or the closing ceremonies.

I am sure that the Premi,er would have seen for himself what a dedi_cated and enthusiastic bunch. of lieople live up in Labrador. A,nd, Mr. Chairl!).an, although. it may have cos·t $350.,.0..0.0. .to the. p:t;ovincial government, it was worth every blinking cent of it. And I only wish. that the premier or the ~nister of R,ural, Agricultural and Northern Develo.pl!J.ent or tl?..e Iit.ni,st.er o:f; Culture, R,ecreation and Youth. could have gotten u~ tod~y and let the people in Labrador know that there will be the second Winter Games wi.thin four years: time.

This: is what th.e people in Labrador s:a.id loud and clea,r to the. minister on ~aturday night,and let us: hope that it doe~ 1163

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 514 so - 2 MR. WARREN : not go by the wayside. Why does he not announce it now,because it took two years to plan this one, and the people were practisin g and getting ready for the last two years. So just imagine, Mr . Chairman, how interesting the second one will be. I have to also agree with the hon. minister in that I do not know what would be the appropriate words to say about the CBC, a media that is funded by the taxpayers of Canada, and the games a first for Labrador. And here we ~?Ve _ t~ e soorts - PREMIER PECKFORD : It is too positive, boy , too positive. MR.

WARREN: Exactly,what the Premier said. In fact,just to get off that for a little while , I called up to CBC there about two weeks ago - in fact, about a year ago the CBC called me up, there was a murder in Nain. They wanted to get my reaction about the RCMP and about the people . They called me up right away and wanted to 1164

March 22, 1983 Tape 515 PK - 1 MR. WARREN: get my reaction. So there about two weeks ago I was talking to CBC and I said, 'Look, the Nain Drama Group is going to participate in the Newfoundland Drama Festival. It is the first time ever a small town of less than 1,000 takes on a bigger centre. Why do you not do something about the positive part of Nain?• 'We will if we got time,' was the response. PREMIER PECKFORD: If there was another murder up there you would have had some coverage. MR.

WARREN: If there was another murder, or if there were two or three houses burned down by arsonists or something like that, you would not be able to stay away from the CBC. PREMIER PECKFORD: your ears. MR. CALLAN: MR. WARREN: You ~ould have cameras coming out of That is the nature of the beast. Mr. Chairman, getting back to the Winter Games. What I find surprising is I have been told by officials in Happy Valley/Goose Bay that they sent out ten minutes of the programme, a good ten minutes, and we see about three or four minutes on the air. They cut it after I it gets out here. After it comes out here to St.

John's .. they start cutting it. I think that is blinking ridiculous. I understand there is going to be an over-all programme one of those Saturdays on Sports Week,but that is a month after the games are over with. There are a lot of people out here from Labrador going to University who wants to keep up with what is going on, but the CBC are more interested in showing a basketball game between the Boston Knickerbochers, or whatever they are called, and the Philadelphia Lakers. MR. STAGG: It is the Boston Celtics. MR. WARREN: The Boston Celtics and the Philadelphia Lakers.

At least I named two basketball teams. 1165

March 22, 1983 Tape 515 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: I hope CBC has the message loud and clear that if there is something going on in the other portion of the Province , surely goodness we should give it due coverage. PREMIER PECXFORD: I£ the fish plant was closing down, though, I will guarantee you have a first-class documentary on it. MR. WARREN: I am surprised also that the Premier is so excited about giving me some hints on what to talk about . The Premi.er must also realize there are a lot of things his government should be doing up in Labrador that the CBC is also not coveri.ng.

The Premier should also realize the CBC should give coverage to the failure of his administration to get things done in Labrador. So, Mr. Chairman, there are pros and cons. For example, why has CBC not done a very good in -depth programm .e on the Department of Fisheries whose incorrect calculations forced 217 fisheDmen from Makkovik to Nain to have those fishermen to pay back $47,000 in OIC overpayments? Does CBC know that that is the fault of this government? 1166

March 22, 1983 Tape 516 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: I would say in closing, Mr. Chairman, that the Labrador Games have been an historic highlight. One of the key things the Games did was to bring together young people from all parts of Labrador. One evening a constituent of 'mine from Nain was on the missing list for a while, but then we learned that she was with a young fellow from Port Hope Simpson. So, Mr. Chairman, here is Nain, 200 miles North of Port Hope Simpson, and it took the Winter Games to bring together this young Inuit girl and this young fellow from Port Hope Simpson. MR. SIMMS: Did he walk her home? MR.

WARREN: Well,· it so happened, r1r. Chairman, they are staying in barracks just across the street from each other, so it was not so far away. So, like I said, I give a bouquet where it is deserved and I think in this instance the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth through the Department of Rural Development and the government in particular, should be given a bouquet for creating unity among the four sections of Labrador. I only wish that the CBC had done half as good a job as the department did. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Avlward) : Recreation and Youth. MR.

SIMMS: The han. the Minister of Culture, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to say a few brief words in a continuation of the very positive remarks that have been made both by my colleague, the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) and by my friend opposite, the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr., Warren) with respect to the one issue of the Labrador Games. I had the distinct privilege and honour of representing this government and the Premier and 1167 . .

March 22, 1983 Tape 516 EC - 2 MR . SIMI.'1S: my colleague, the minister , at the opening ceremonies, as he has already mentioned, and believe me, for someone who should have had some interest in it anyway - and I did, of course, and tried to follow it as best I could and met with the committee some time last Fall - I really did not get the feeling of the uniqueness of this particular activity until I was present at the opening ceremonies. MR . STAGG: MR. SIMMS: Was the member there? No, I do not believe the member was at the opening, but I believe he was there for the closing ceremonies . MR.

WARREN: Yes , I was there. MR. SIMMS : But ,in any event , the uniqueness of that particular evening really brought a feeling of interest, I think, to all who were in attendance. Certainly, those who were there from outside the Labrador area 1168

March 22, 1983 Tape No. 517 JV - l MR. SIMMS: had a particularly good feeling and when you can see the athletes coming in on the floor of that arena ., the great majority of whom have never had an opportunity to participate in an activity such as that, never outside of their communities in many cases and, of course, this opportunity was presented to them because of the decision of this government some time ago to host the first ever Labrador Winter games. MR. WARREN: What about the second one? MR. SIMMS: Well, the second one, that is something that will have to be considered and discussed, I guess, in due course.

But I want to reiterate what my friends have said because i~ truly as a unique happening and you really had to be there to appreciate it. I, too, share th~distain towards the CBC the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warrenl described because it is unfortunate, very unfortunate they did not see fit to show to the rest of the people of