Manitoba Hansard — 30 May 2012 (Sitting 42, 40th Legislature, 1st Session)

40-1-42

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Fortieth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Daryl Reid Speaker Vol. LXIV No. 42 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 30, 2012 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Fortieth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital NDP ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson NDP BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli NDP BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park NDP BRAUN, Erna Rossmere NDP BRIESE, Stuart Agassiz PC CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East NDP CHIEF, Kevin, Hon. Point Douglas NDP CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan NDP CROTHERS, Deanne St.

James NDP CULLEN, Cliff Spruce Woods PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FRIESEN, Cameron Morden-Winkler PC GAUDREAU, Dave St. Norbert NDP GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Liberal GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge NDP IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Richmond NDP JHA, Bidhu Radisson NDP KOSTYSHYN, Ron, Hon. Swan River NDP LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. Dawson Trail NDP MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns NDP MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor, Hon. Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte PC MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel NDP MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East PC NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake NDP OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River NDP PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PETTERSEN, Clarence Flin Flon NDP REID, Daryl, Hon. Transcona NDP ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Kewatinook NDP RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia NDP ROWAT, Leanne Riding Mountain PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron St. Paul PC SELBY, Erin, Hon. Southdale NDP SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo PC STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin NDP SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto NDP TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris PC WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas NDP WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WIGHT, Melanie Burrows NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC

1921 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 30, 2012 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Speaker: O Eternal and Almighty God, from Whom all power and wisdom come, we are assembled here before Thee to frame s uch laws as may tend to the welfare and prosperity of our province. Grant, O merciful God, we pray Thee, that we may desire only that which is in accordance with Thy will, that we may seek it with wisdom, know it with certainty and accomplish it perfectly for the glory and honour of Thy name and for the welfare of all our people. Amen. Good afternoon, folks. Please be seated.

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Personal Care Homes and Long-Term Care–Steinbach Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Good afternoon, Mr. Speaker. I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for the petition: The city of Steinbach is one of the fastest growing communities in Manitoba and one of the largest cities in the province. This g rowth has resulted in pressure on a number of important services, including personal care homes and long-term care space in the city.

Many long -time residents of the city of Steinbach have been forced to live out their final years outside of Steinbach because of the shortage of personal care homes and long-term care facilities. Individuals who have lived in, worked in, and contributed to the city of Steinbach their entire lives should not be forced to spend their final years in a place far from friends and from family. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health to ensure additional personal care homes and long- term care spaces are made available in the city of Steinbach on a priority basis.

Mr. Speaker , this is signed by E. Friesen, G. Pylypjuk, I. Pylypjuk and thousands of other Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rules 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to have been received by the House. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Andrew Swan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I'm pleased to table the annual report for '09 -10 for the Helen Betty Osborne Memorial Foundation. Mr. Speaker: Any further tabling of reports? Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw honourable members' attention to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today from Gujraj, India, Swami Ashwini Prajnaa and Jain Samaj and also, from Winnipeg, Dr. Narindra Jain, who are the guests of the honourable member from Radisson. On behalf of honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. And also, in the public gallery this afternoon, we have with us from Elmdale high school 56 grade 4 students under the direction of Ms. Lyndsey Engel and Ms. Bethany Dueck.

This group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen). On behalf of honourable members, we welcome you. And also in the public gallery we have this afternoon from Country View School 14 grade 6 to 9 students under the directi on of Ms. Jenee Penner. This group is also located in the constituency of the honourable member for Steinbach. We also welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS New West Partnership Trade Agreement Manitoba Participation Mr.

Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): At this time of economic challenge in Manitoba and throughout Canada, it's more

1922 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2012 important than ever that Manitoba fully participate in both internal and international free trade agreements. Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia recognize this need and formed the New West Partnership. Manitoba, under this NDP government, has sat on the sidelines. I want to ask the Premier: Why is he so opposed to participating in this job -creating trade agreement with our western neighbours? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question from the member from Fort Whyte and Leader of the Opposition.

I want to welcome him back belatedly. I know he was warmly received yesterday. And I do want to say we had a very good meeting with the western premiers from the western provinces as well as the territories yesterday. We focused on the need for strategic infrastructure. There was a strong endorsement of the immigration program that's offered in Manitoba, including lifting the cap to have more newcomers come to all the provinces in Canada but especially western Canada where there are labour shortages.

We talked about labour market agreements and training and skills development for Canadians and people in western Canada. We talked about a Canadian energy strategy that would be led through western Canada but encompass all of the country, but particularly focusing on leveraging our clean energy assets in western Canada and taking all the assets we have for energy and making them even cleaner and more sustainable as we go forward. So it was a very productive meeting that we had with western premiers yesterday. Mr.

McFadyen: We note the Premier's support for the federal changes to employment insurance and federal environmental reviews, and those are positive steps. But there's a missed opportunity to participate fully in the New West Partnership as our three neighbouring provinces have done. Those provinces are attracting private investment, they're attracting jobs, and they're building their economies. And I want to ask the Premier: Why is Manitoba outside of this free trade agreement? Is it because they don't want to be part of the agreement, or is it because our three western neighbours haven't welcomed them? Mr.

Selinger: As I was saying to the member – Leader of the Opposition, we had an excellent meeting yesterday in Edmonton where we did focus on things like how to ensure that the Labour Market Development Agreement, which is part of the Employment Insurance program, is more flexible so we can bring more people back into the labour market, offer them more training opportunities, provide bridges between unemployment and employment at a time when we need skilled workers in western Canada, Manitoba and all the province s and territories to the north of us. And so that was very productive.

Environmental review, we definitely supported a process that simplified the review process to one review, one decision, but at the same time had a high standard for environmental susta inability for any project that we do. So I thought it was a very productive meeting. We will be following up with further collaborations with our western partners on the Canadian energy strategy, on east -west transmission. There's a growing interest in s trengthening our east -west transmission linkages for hydro, for other sources of energy, and I thought it was a very productive meeting, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen : Again, Mr.

Speaker, we are very happy to see western premiers stand up strongly against the antiwestern messages coming from Thomas Mulcair, the federal leader of the NDP, and we're happy to see recognition of the important role that energy and resources play in our economy. So we're happy to see them oppose Mr. Mulcair's antiwestern attitudes an d antiresource development policies. Why not go a step further and actually participate in a free trade agreement with our western neighbours to build Manitoba and build western Canada for the future? Mr.

Selinger: It was a pleasure to be in the province of Alberta to see the walls coming down and a reaching out by the leadership in Alberta to all of Canada, and we very much support that attitude that we all work together. And the better partnerships we have, the more we will prosper as a country and as a western region, and that was the attitude we saw yesterday. * (13:40) We saw a big emphasis on sustainable energy development, energy that has a clean and smaller

May 30, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1923 carbon footprint, the willingness to share resources among each other on best practices and how we develop energy, the opportunities for jobs and employment in western Canada as we develop our energy economy, which is why we focused on labour market agreements and the abundant opportunities to live in this great country, particularly the west, which is why we had very strong support from the western premiers on our immigration program and why we need to lift the cap and have better settlement programs run at the local level for the benefit of greater integration of people into our great country.

Government Departments Advertising Expenditures Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, in a memo from the secretary to the Treasury Board to the ministers and deputy ministers of this government dated December 16th, 2011, it says, and I quote: Departments are to maximize reductions in expenditures wherever possible, including, among a number of things, it says restricting advertising - related activity. Mr. Speaker, I'm wondering if the Minister of Finance could indicate how much his government saved as a result of this initiative. Hon. Stan Struthers (Minister of Finance ): Well, Mr.

Speaker, we've been very consistent in telling not just members across the way but Manitobans across the province that we are very serious about balancing the budget in the 2014 year and that we're very serious about protecting the services that Manitobans appreciate the most and value the most.

And we've been clear with that, and we've been very clear through the budget in indicating to people that internally we are working towards goals and targets that I think are very aggressive and will produce the kind of results that bring us back into budget – balanced budget and at the same time protect those services that I know members opposite –and maybe despite the resolution they brought forward to this House, maybe they understand that and maybe they do actually understand that those are services worth fighting for. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr.

Speaker, after the memo went out, what we would expect is to see a reduction in overall a dvertising costs. But did we? No. As a matter of fact, through freedom of information response that we received, instead there was an increase of almost $1.2 million. Can the minister explain this, or is an increase the new decrease? Mr. Struthers : Well, Mr. Speaker, we have been working very hard internally to make sure– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Struthers: –working very hard. They may not like to work very hard, but we like to work very hard to make sure that we do come back into balance.

We have been very clear that spending in the 2012 budget will be reduced. We have departments on this side of the House who have reduced and are working to further reduce the spending that we do. Mr. Speaker, we've been very clear. We will come back into balance and will not put at risk the health care and education, infrastructure, kids , for services kinds of commitments that we have to the people of Manitoba. Mrs. Stefanson: Well, Mr.

Speaker, a memo sent from the secretary of the Treasury Board to the ministers and deputy ministers specifically asked for restrictions to be placed on advertising expenditures, presumably to find some savings in this area. But what we have found through freedom of information response was that not only were there no savings, there was actually an increase in the cost of $1.2 billion–million, sorry. Can the minister explain why his policy has failed to yield a reduction in expenditures? Mr. Speaker, was it mismanagement, was it incompetent, or was it both? Mr. Struthers: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I think members opposite should do a little bit more homework maybe and take a look at what it is that we do spend money on. Are they saying that we shouldn't be putting money into something like Manitoba in motion? Do they not think w e should have a campaign to reduce the amount of tobacco that's smoked? Do you think that we should maybe not be putting money into promoting the Healthy Baby or the Green Team proposals? Mr. Speaker, we think it's valuable that we advertise, that we talk to Manitobans about booster seats. These are all undertakings that I think are very worthwhile.

I think it fits into our approach to protect the kind of services that Manitobans value the most and, at the same time, make sure that we reassure

1924 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2012 Manitobans that we're going to spend smart and come back into balance. Military Affairs Special Envoy Appointment of Bonnie Korzeniowski Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): What the government is spending money on is creating jobs for retired MLAs, Mr. Speaker. The NDP ha ve an arrogant history of rewarding their friends with high- paying government jobs. Instead of working for Manitobans, they create new positions like associate deputy ministers and chief prevention officers and appoint their friends without competitive selection processes.

Even the former member from Brandon West got a soft landing in E, T and T. The same thing happened with the special envoy for military affairs. Instead of keeping this dignified position for elected representatives, they turned it into a civil service job to keep Bonnie Korzeniowski on the government payroll. Will the minister admit today that Ms. Korzeniowski's position is not about relationships with the military, it's about keeping NDP insiders on the government payroll? And he's looking for savings; look no further, Mr. Speaker. Hon.

Peter Bjornson (Minister of Entrepreneur - ship, Training and Trade): I'd like to first thank the member for the question. It gives me an opportunity to again talk about the good work that Ms. Korzeniowski is doing on behalf of the military, the veterans, and the military families throughout Manitoba. Members opposite might think they need part - time or token attention, but we think this needs full - time attention, especially in light of what's been happening with some of the federal changes that are being made with Veterans Affairs.

And we feel it's money well invested to serve the needs of the military families throughout the province of Manitoba. And for the member to suggest that it remain in this Chambe r and be part of a political process, I believe it serves them better that it is outside of the Chamber. It is no longer a political appointment, and she will continue to do what she's done well and that's serve the military families of Manitoba. Mrs. Taillieu: And we know that the special envoy does have a role to play in ensuring that Manitobans understand the issues of the military.

But this is a position that is the job of an MLA, not a civil servant. And that's why the Premier (Mr. Selinger) gave this job to an MLA in the first place. Now Ms. Korzeniowski gets her former salary, she gets to retain her former constituency office, and she goes out on behalf of the Premier to bring greetings to special military events, and she's not an MLA, Mr. Speaker. Why is the Premier dishonouring the role of the special envoy just to keep an NDP insider on the payroll? Again I'll ask, Mr. Speaker. If the Finance Minister is looking for savings, he can look in that department over there. Why isn't he? Mr.

Bjorn son: Well, again, the member should listen to what Brian Koshul from the Fort Garry Horse Centennial Committee has said in the Free Press. And what he said was that he's seen no difference since she, being Ms. Korzeniowski, decided not to seek re -election. She's been involved in many things on an ongoing basis. To me and others, the military affairs envoy's job is just as efficient and pertinent now as when she was a sitting member of the Legislature. Mr. Speaker, they might feel that the military needs part-time attention. We believe they need full - time attention. Mrs. Taillieu: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the difference is it's $200,000 more that is being spent right now, and a current MLA could be doing the job. The government continues to say that they need an unelected 58th MLA to keep them apprised of the issues affecting military unit based in Manitoba. I find it very odd that this Premier does not have confidence in another MLA, perhaps the current member from St. James. Why does he not have faith in a current member to build relationships with the military, Mr. Speaker? Surely the Premier is not admitting that he trusts the work of a retired MLA over the work of a sitting MLA in his own caucus.

Will the Premier stand up today and return honour to the role of the special envoy for military affairs by appointing a sitting MLA? Because if he's looking for savings, he can look no further than that. * (13:50) Mr. Bjornson : Ms. Korzeniowski played a very significant role as the military envoy in creating legislation that protected the jobs of those military personnel who were serving in Afghanistan. She's

May 30, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1925 been involved in bringing the Yellow Ribbon Campaign to the Legislature. She'd been involved in veterans' licence plates, voting rights for troops serving overseas. That was a proven track record, Mr. Speaker. And she continues to serve the troops in many ways by acting as a liaison with all the military units in Manitoba, by supporting military events throughout the province of Manitoba, by maintaining liaison with the formation commands throughout the province.

I'm really not sure why the members opposite would support the position of the military envoy when it was prudent to do so when she was here in the gallery supporting a private member's bill but clearly they don't support it today and try to play political football with it. They should be supporting the troops, Mr. Speaker. Health Department Administration Expenditures of Minister's Office Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Yesterday in Estimates, the Minister of Health confirmed that executive support to her office remained unchanged from last year. It was $1.2 million last year and it's $1.2 million this year.

I'd like to ask the Minister of Health to explain why she made no attempt to cut administrative spending in her own office. Hon. T heresa Oswald (Minister of Health): As I told the member in Estimates yesterday, there are two vacancies in my office. Mrs. Driedger: Yesterday, she also in dicated that she was trying hard to fill those positions. So, Mr. Speaker, the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba is being forced to find up to $1 million in savings this year. In fact, they are going to be forced to cut programming in order to save that money.

So can the Minister of Health tell us, and can she tell the people waiting on addiction treatment lists, why she feels so entitled and why she didn't even cut back on administrative spending in her own office? Ms. Oswald: As I said previously, I put some facts on the record concerning current staffing, but the member opposite and I have had certain debates over the years about complements of staffing. I would note, of course, that the level of staffing in my office hasn't changed since I arrived there. And it certainly is our priority, Mr. Speaker, to work to be as responsive to the public as we can.

We know, without a doubt, that when members opposite were running the Health office, they actually didn't want anyone answering the phone that had spent a bunch of time in the hallway. They didn't want anyone answering the phone. Medical students 71 through 85, when they cut the medical school spaces, and they sure didn't want to answer those calls from those 1,000 nurses, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I would remind the minister that she's spending $1.2 million on administrative spending for her own office.

And AFM is being forced to slash spending, but the Minister of Health felt absolutely no responsibility to cut back on administrative expenses in her own office. In fact, these expenses include a doubling of political staff since 1999. Yesterday, she said the $1.2 million, unchanged from last year, was budgeted responsibly. I'd like to ask the Minister of Health to please explain how she could possibly say she was budgeting responsibly when she made absolutely no effort to cut back administrative spending in her office while we're seeing program cuts right across all the departments, Mr. Speaker. Ms.

Oswald: Well, I would reiterate, and correct the member, Mr. Speaker, that, again, the number of people working in my office, the minister's office, remains unchanged since the time that I started. I would reiterate to the member, as I did in committee, that the number of people working in the deputy minister's office, in which some of this is captured, remains unchanged. We're holding two vacancies at the moment. And I would hasten to add, Mr.

Speaker, that when you look at the 1998-99 Estimates for the Department of Health and compare them to the Estimates from this year, you'll notice there are 167 fewer positions in the Department of Health today than when they were in office. Manitoba Model Forest Funding Status Mr. Wayne Ew asko (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, we've seen many examples of this government's misdirected priorities, like excessive advertising costs, excessive administrative costs, a

1926 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2012 former MLA appointed to a plum job with a hefty salary, and the list goes on. On May 11th, during the Estimates for Conservation and Water Stewardship, we discussed the Manitoba Model Forest. This organization's role is to help sustain both our forests and the various communities that rely on them. This organization has been involved i n important projects such as the Junior Ranger program, woodland caribou research, and the committee for moose management, among others. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Conservation again today: What is the status of the provincial funding to this organization? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Conservation and Water Stewardship): The Manitoba Model Forest is indeed a model organization, Mr. Speaker, that's made great strides in creating partnerships dealing with many of the challenges a ffecting the moose population on the east side, engaging youth even, so that youth from Sagkeeng can learn many skills.

It's most unfortunate that the Manitoba Model Forest, though, has seen some reductions in its supports from the cousins of the members opposite, the federal government in Ottawa. Mr. Ewasko: I appreciate the answer from the minister across the way in mentioning the youth. Mr. Speaker, the annual Junior Rangers program run by the Manitoba Model Forest involves approximately 32 Aboriginal youth from Sagkeeng, Little Black River, Manigotagan, Hollow Water, and Powerview-Pine Falls. It is a worthy program whose provincial funding appears to be in jeopardy.

This NDP has money for advertising, money for excessive administration costs, and money to appoint former MLAs to plum jobs, but no money for valuable programming that benefits Aboriginal youth programs. Mr. Speaker, can the minister of child and youth opportunities shed some light on this and confirm that the organizers of the Junior R angers program can move forward with certainty? Mr. Mackintosh: It's also, I might add, unfortunate that with the demise of the paper mill that there was some loss of support for the Manitoba forest operation there. I have met with Dr.

Kotak and we've explored the vision, the continuing vision for the Manitoba Model Forest. Our Minister of Education (Ms. Allan) is also keenly aware of the opportunities that can be provided. So, despite the downward turn in funding from the member's cousins in Ottawa –he might want to speak to his MP about that –and, as well, from Tolko, t his government remains committed to the Manitoba Model Forest. And I will just add, as a footnote, we're going to continue to look to see if there are any opportunities that we can play to further enhance the work that they do on a project basis.

But we care deeply about this organization, and we just wish that others would maintain their funding as we have. Mr. Ewasko: In the 25th– May 25th edition of the Manitoba Model Forest E-News, it was reported that there is no provincial funding for this organizat ion. This will affect important initiatives benefiting youth like the Junior Rangers program.

I wonder if the minister of child and youth opportunities sees the irony in wasting money on advertising, the military's envoy retirement fund, and administrative costs, all at the same time cutting funding to this Junior Rangers program which directly affects youth. Mr. Speaker, when can I tell Dr. Brian Kotak of the Manitoba Model Forest that he will be receiving his core funding that the minister promised, or is it just another broken NDP promise? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr.

Speaker, as we advised the member in Estimates, the Province of Manitoba is maintaining its commitment to the Manitoba Model Forest this year. That is our commitment, and while the federal government may not see this as an important organization, we are going to ensure that they're able to commit to doing what is necessary when it comes, for example, dealing with habitat and wildlife on the east side and, as well, continuing with the project s that they have shown some leadership on. So we'll certainly do our best. We're going to be there.

In fact, we are, and we said in committee there is no reduction in funding for the Manitoba Model Forest in this year's budget. Community Works Loan Program Cancellation Mr. Cliff Cullen ( Spruce Woods ): Mr. Speaker, members on this side of the House have been asking questions on the arbitrary slashing to the regional development corporation program. Not only has this government signalled the demise of the RDCs, they

May 30, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1927 have also set their sights on local com munity development corporations. Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister responsible: Why has he cancelled the Community Works Loan Program? Hon.

Ron Kostyshyn (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): And I would like to entertain the thank you to the member opposite for the question again, and I'll repeat the same answer. * (14:00) As we all know, the RDCs have been in existence since the 1960s, and we're always looking at innovative ideas, refocus, reshuffle and move forward in a positive manner to be held accountable.

And I want to ensure the member opposite that we're always told, much similar as the federal government, we have a partnership, but at times we have to refocus and do due diligence in our money accountability for the betterment of all taxpayers. Mr. Cullen: I hope the minister will pay attention to the question. You know, already he's set his targets on the RDCs. Now he's set his target on the local development corporations. This government has cut the budget for the Department of Rural Initiatives, and now they're clawing back cash used for business development loans.

The government has sent letters to local community development corporations around the province asking for this seed money to be returned. These local CDCs were responsible for making loans and ensuring success of the Community Works Loan Program. Given the minister's action, it is hard to believe that he is sincere on rural development initiatives. Mr. Speaker, why is this minister now taking this important tool away from rural communities? Mr. Kostyshyn : On uncertain times, you know what? Our first line of defence is we look towards health care and education.

That is the consent of the opposition party, and we're refocusing. But I also want to ensure the opposite member is that we also have members that work in our–staff our GO offices. They're providing advice, suggestions how we can move forward on this. But also, you know what? Our government is committed to rural communities achieving their goals when it co mes to providing economic development. Front -line staff in MAFRI offices provide valuable support, rural communities on economic development, business development and rural leadership specialist.

Canada - Manitoba business services, located across the province, also support rural development in rural Manitoba as well. So I think the member opposite should investigate that. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Cullen: And the minister better go back to his own letter of discontinuance which talks about the demise of the program being due to limited lending activity. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. Many CDCs have these funds fully loaned out. And I will table for the minister just one response from one local CDC.

In that letter they talk about h aving eight active loans currently worth over $48,000 on the books. In addition, since 1998 the Roblin- Cartwright Community Development Corporation has made 39 loans, representing a total of over $390,000. Clearly, Mr. Speaker, a successful program. I ask the minister: Is this government really serious about rural economic development? And if so, why are they so intent to cut the feet out from rural development corporations? Mr. Kostyshyn: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Canadian works loans programs have been–M r. Speaker, sorry about–my apologies, Mr.

Speaker –were established in 1995 and they were repayable interest-free loans. As we know that we always move forward in doing changes as we've indicated. Loan–provincial loan community development programs corporations provided numerous repayable organization. But also we have to remember there was a partnership that was developed with a number of municipal governments. And now, you know what? The sad reality is that we tend to want to be picking on certain issues here. And I want to assure you that– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: The honourable minister, to conclude his remarks. Mr.

Kostyshyn : Mr. Speaker, I guess, you know what? We tend to forget what happened to the Canadian Wheat Board. We have 2,000 people out of jobs. We've got community pastures, and they want to tell us about losing? Why should our federal cousins give us something that wasn't beneficial to

1928 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2012 them? But they want to give it to the Province. And the opposition party is saying, we have to fix the problem and we have to be accountable. I ask the member opposite, please, share in our discussion. Thank you. Children In Care Housing Allowance for Youth in Transition Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, yesterday I asked the NDP government to look realistically at the woefully inadequate shelter allowance provided for people on welfare.

This NDP government has had only minuscule increases in the welfare rates for over 10 years; they've not even been indexed to inflation. Under this NDP government, the number of children apprehended in CFS, sometimes from loving but poverty-stricken families, has grown from 5,000 to almost 10,000 a year in 12 years. When these kids are turned out on the street when they turn 18, many are forced to temporarily go on welfare.

I ask the Premier: When is he going to raise the welfare rates to provide a realistic amount of rent money for vulnerable youth who need a safe place to live if they turn 18 and temporari ly need to go on welfare? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): There has been a program put in place to help people that age out of the child welfare system, over 18 years old, to receive additional support, not only for rent but opportunities for training and a ccess to labour markets. That program was put in place by this government. The Ombudsman commented on that; the Children's Advocate commented on that.

We saw the value of having a program to stabilize the lives of people when they come out of the child w elfare system. It has made a big difference. This is in addition to the National Child Benefit, which we added back to all people regardless of their source of income so they had additional support. And as well, we have a program, over $9 million, called RentAid, which is a portable benefit to assist people with rent that's available to all people, including people on social assistance and the people with low incomes that are working in the labour market. Mr.

Gerrard: The Premier's program hopes–helps a few, but leaves far too many without the help they need. Mr. Speaker, under this NDP government, there now almost 10,000 kids in care. A news –as we know, there are far too many unhappy endings for kids growing up in state care. We know that the majority of these kids in care, 80 per cent, are Aboriginal youth, perhaps living hundreds of miles away from their communities. We also know that 75 per cent of individuals trapped in the sex trade grow up in self –straight care, without opportunities elsewhere. Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Premier: When will he realistically address this epidemic of kids in care, which has proven to be, far too often, unsafe and unloving care, and raise the welfare rates so that when they leave this so-called care at 18, they have a safe place to live and enough food to eat? Mr. Selinger: Well, Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, we've put benefits in place that are portable, that stay with people even if they go off social assistance into the labour market, such as RentAid, such as the National Child Benefit, such as a family support benefit.

All of these initiatives were intended to allow people more choices in their lives, so they could move off social assistance and still receive support, and support involving more training as well, which is why we've put a big emphasis on increased graduation from high school; it's gone up about 16 per cent. With respect to people that are perhaps living on the street, we have Tracia's Trust, a program worth over $10 million. We fund a number of outr each programs that work with young people on the street, or people of any age, for that matter, and help them come off the street.

And just last week, I was at a very special event with the Native Women's Transition Centre on Ellice Avenue where we opene d up a major housing program to help people come off the street or coming out of jail relocate in the community for two to three years in this supported housing where they get additional education, additional life skills, help them stabilize their lives an d move back into the community without going back to corrections or going back out on the streets. So these are very significant investments we've made. I'm just glad the member's giving me the opportunity to inform him of that. Mr.

Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Premier for what I already know, that there's programs which

May 30, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1929 help but few –but leave so many out on the street. Too many of the government programs that the NDP operate and brag about are just not working as well as they should be. Since the N DP have been in power, there has been a 500 per cent increase in food 'pank' use by children. Half–or almost half of all those who go to food banks are receiving social assistance. It's not providing sufficient help. There are almost 10,000 kids in care under the NDP government. The graduation rates of kids that grew up in care are 'aspallingly' low. Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Premier: Well –when will he at least index the welfare rates to inflation so the shelter net allowance will start to increase and help the scores of kids in care who will soon turn 18 to actually rent a decent, safe place to live? * (14:10) Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, I just want the member to understand that we've had very good policy recommendations to suggest we need to put benefits in place that are not only available to people while they're on social assistance, but available to people when they move off social assistance, which is why we put the RentAid program in place, which is why we have more labour market programs available to people so they can get skills and training.

And I would like the member to know as well we've been building a record number of social housing units, and in those housing units the rent is geared to their income so they have a ceiling at how much they have to pay for rent regardless of their level of income so that they're not using all that money just for rent. They have money available for other–the necessities of life.

So these are the kinds of commitments we're making: more housing, more training, more opportunities to get into the labour market, more child care so their children can be looked after when they participate in the labour market, and more supportive housing such as the example I gave just in the previous question. All of these initiatives are intended to allow people to have productive lives independent from the social assistance system, which is what we'd like. We'd like more people to be able to have those kinds of independent lives.

And I do remind the member opposite, there used to be a 50 per cent contribution for social assistance– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Time. Commuter Challenge Government Initiative Mr. James Allum (Fort Garry -Riverview): Many of my constituents to –prefer to leave their cars at home and travel to work by bike or by bus or by walking because it's a cheaper, healthier and environmentally more sensitive way to commute. Can the Minister of Healthy Living update this House on an announcement he made yesterday designed to promote healthy living, save people money and protect the environment? Hon.

Jim Rondeau (Minister of Healthy Living, Seniors and Consumer Affairs ): Yesterday, the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Mackintosh), the member for Fort Rouge (Ms. Howard) and I announced that the Commuter Challenge will be held from June 3rd to 9th again this year. The Commuter Challenge gets people out of their car and takes a bus, walks, carpools, uses a bus or Rollerblades to get to work. And, you know, it's really important because we need to continue to keep people more active. It's a major priority for the Ministry of Healthy Living.

And just to make all members aware, more than 7,300 employees at 241 workplaces saved about 71,000 litres of fuel, but more importantly, they got healthy, they had more active lives and tried to be more–integrate active healthy living and transportation into their lifestyle. And, you know, Mr. Speaker, we have been leaders in the country. We've won a number of times, and I encourage all members to use– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Minister's time expired. Community Pastures Crown Land Agricultural Production Mr.

Blaine Pedersen (Midland): The patrons of Manitoba's community pastures are beginning the process of organizing to assume control of this vital pasture resource. The options include grazing clubs or forming co- ops to manage the operations of the pastures.

1930 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2012 Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Agriculture ensure that the provincial Crown lands located within these community pastures remain in agricultural production to ensure this valuable resource is maintained for Manitoba's cattle industry? Hon. Ron Kostyshyn (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): And as the member opposite has asked, been a cattle producer 35 years of my life and I truly understand what the member opposite is asking forward.

You've heard me say numerous times, family farms, young cattle producers, young farmer generations is what we need to be focused on for the betterment of the Manitoba economy. I thank the member opposite to also acknowledge the fact is that when we talk about community pastures and their federal cousins chose to give us something that wasn't making money for them and they're asking us to be acc ountable for money to be spent wisely, why should we take on something that wasn't a money-making situation? But you know what?

Our government is going to work with the cattle producers and the cattle industry in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Pedersen: Mr. Speaker, I guess we can go with the Minister of Agriculture year on year of experience in cattle industry as I also have, but that experience doesn't mean anything unless the Province maintains this land within agriculture and not allow it to slip away from agriculture. Mr. Speaker, producers need to know what resources the Minister of Agriculture will make available to help these cattle producers assume control of these pasture lands.

Will the minister ensure that the Crown lands will remain in agricultural production and that these cattle producers will be able to access this great resort–resource on a continuing basis? Mr. Kostyshyn: As you know, obviously the federal government didn't feel it was a priority, but I want to assure the member opposite our government does think it's a priority, although it's –as I indicated, we are here for the betterment of the economy of the province of Manitoba. The beef industry is one of the best thing they've got going, and we've got international markets.

We've got markets that we can develop a beef industry to no other –in other provinces of Manitoba. And maybe we have to focus more to provide beef industry in our province, rather than have it transfer to other provinces in the west, to make our economy grow because of our raw resource that we grow in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Pedersen: Mr. Speaker, what these cattle producers are looking for i s for a serious commitment from this Minister of Agriculture and from the–MAFRI that they will indeed keep this land in agricultural production. That is the first step that needs to happen.

These producers are willing to form co -ops– form grazing co -ops, whatever's needed, but what they need first is the assurance that this land will remain in agricultural production. Mr. Kostyshyn: Also, I just want to be repetitious, as I indicated. Our government is here for the cattle industry in the province of Manitoba. Also, when we talk about PFRAs, we talk about the shelterbelt production; that was trees that were manufactured, produced for free delivery, about erosion. We could talk about the ecosystem in the province of Manitoba –across western Canada.

But, no, they're talking about, let's give it away and let's not worry about these trees for the soil–the economic system of the province of Manitoba. But I want to ensure the member opposite I do believe in the community pasture, I do believe in the ecosystem, and so do the cattle producers in the province of Manitoba. And we will work with the cattle producers, the cattlemen organization, and for the betterment of the province of Manitoba –the beef industry, No. 1. Mr. Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Sustainable South Osborne Community Co-operative Mr.

James Allum (Fort Garry -Riverview): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to my constituents' impressive efforts to address global economic and environmental challenges by taking local action to build long- term sustainability and self-sufficiency in Fort Garry-Riverview. The non- profit South Osborne Community Co-op was founded in 2009 to promote food security in Riverview and Lord Roberts, two neighbourhoods in my constituency . At their annual general meeting on May 29th, co- op members voted to expand their

May 30, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1931 mandate and change their name to the Sustainable South Osborne Community Co-op. In addition to developing a number of food- security initiatives, the new co -op will also tak e responsibility for the fantastic Lord Roberts bike hub and other programs that grew out of the Province of Manitoba's innovative Community Led Emissions Reduction program. The co-op is currently working on a number of flagship projects, including the ne w community orchard along Churchill Drive, which will bring beauty, fresh air and sustainable food to the neighbourhood.

Likewise, the co- op's food- buying club, which is one of the largest in Winnipeg, encourages community residents to participate in a progressive food production system that is local, organic and sustainable. Co- op members are also spending their time at four intergenerational gardens, which encourage people of all ages to garden together in a spirit of friendship, mutual aid and neighbourhood development.

I'd like to thank the members of the Sustainable South Osborne Community Co -op for their dedication to our community, and congratulate them for promoting community development that is socially and ecologically responsible. Those of us who attended the AGM were happy to see that this incredible group is not only continuing to contribute to local sustainability efforts, but they are growing in number and in strength. May they continue to make our community a stronger and safer and more sust ainable place to live for generations to come. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. James Atkinson Mr. Stuart Briese (Agassiz): Mr.

Speaker, I rise today to recognize the incredible achievement of Mr. James Atkinson of Mountain Road, Manitoba, and his fellow teamma tes on the Canadian Eventing Team which won the silver medal at the 16th Pan- American Games in Guadalajara, Mexico, on October 23rd, 2011. Mr. Atkinson rode Gustav, the 12- year-old Oldenburg/Thoroughbred gelding, owned by Carolyn Hoffos of Ramona, Califor nia, and scored a 65.7, which was one of the top three scores on the Canadian team. * (14:20) The Canadians earned a silver medal for their performance, while Mr.

Atkinson rode to a seventh- place finish in the individual rankings. However, in his final round he jumped a clear round, which is a remarkable achievement in itself. Out of 49 entries in the tournament, only 31 completed their round. Throughout the competition, Mr. Atkinson was helped by his brother, Matthew, who served as Gustav's groom. James 's parents, Tony and Sue Atkinson from Mountain Road, were also in attendance to watch the competition and offer their support to their son. Mr. Atkinson was born in England and began the three-day eventing overseas.

He moved to Manitoba at a young age an d pursued his passion for eventing his whole life. He is now an expert Canadian rider and will hopefully be chosen to the Canadian equestrian team selection committee for the 2012 Olympic Games which is coming up in June. I'm proud to rise today and honour Mr. Atkinson and Team Canada's accomplishments in horse jumping and eventing competitions which take place in Manitoba and across the world every year. I sincerely wish Mr. Atkinson and the Canadian eventing team the best of luck in the future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mensheds Manitoba Ms.

Sharon Blady (Kirkfield Park): Mr. Speaker, working Canadians look forward to the day when they can retire in order to relax after a lifetime of contributing to society. Many retirees seek out new hobbies and friends hips after their formal working life is over. Mensheds Manitoba Inc. is a group that brings together men of all ages twice a week for fun and fellowship at the Woodhaven Park Community Club. The group was started by Doug Mackie in order to give men a space to work on projects together, learn new skills and, most of all, to share their life experiences in an atmosphere of friendship.

Mensheds Manitoba is based on the Australian community Men's Shed organizations that cater to older, retired men, offering social, emotional and other benefits to those who participate in them. Taking inspiration from the 90,000- member Australian Men's Shed association, Mackie has been joined by many, mostly retirees, since Mensheds Manitoba began in 2010.

1932 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2012 In addition to meet ing once a week at the Woodhaven Park Community Club to carve wood and create crafts from recycled materials, they also meet to practise culinary skills, go for breakfast, volunteer and go on walking tours of the city. Mensheds Manitoba has recently begun to operate Men's Sheds Café, where group members learn new recipes and prepare a full meal in the kitchen of the Woodhaven Park Community Club. Members help each other in developing new culinary skills and in food preparation. Mr.

Speaker, many studies have demonstrated that social isolation among seniors is a significant concern. Community groups that support positive relationships are a great way of overcoming social isolation amongst older people. Mensheds Manitoba is a fantastic opportunity for men to contribute to shared and individual projects, forge new friendships and develop creative and health-based skills. The scale of Mensheds Manitoba is impressive, and its rapid growth in terms of membership and regular events demonstrate the need for such positive communal initiatives. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Andy Murray Mr.

Larry Maguire (Arthur- Virden): Mr. Speaker, I rise with pride to acknowledge one of Souris, Manitoba's, accomplished personalities, Andy Murray. On May 20th, 2012, in Finland, Andy was inducted into the International Ice Hockey Federation's Hall of Fame for his work promoting and developing the sport of hockey in Canada and abroad. Andy Murray grew up playing hockey in his home town of Souris. After his playing days, he quickly turned his attention to coaching.

Beginning in local Manitoba leagues, he soon made the jump to it–Canadian–the Canadian Inter -university Sport level as head coach of the Brandon University Bobcats, which was followed by stints with various European hockey clubs. Andy eventually returned to North America in 1988 to coach the Hershey Bears of the American Hockey League. His success led to assistant coaching positions with the Winnipeg Jets, Minnesota North Stars, and Philadelphia Flyers. After spending a year co aching at the famed Minnesota prep school, Shattuck St.

Mary's, he became the head coach of the Los Angeles Kings in 1999 and later the St. Louis Blues in 2006. He is the Kings all-time leading coach in wins with 215, and also one of only 39 head coaches i n NHL history to achieve 300 career wins. However, one of his greatest successes came as head coach of Team Canada. Andy and our Canadian teams captured gold in 1997, 2003, and 2007 leaving him as the only Canadian coach in history to win three gold meda ls at the World Hockey Championships. Currently, he is the head coach of the University of Western Michigan Broncos men's hockey team.

Andy's record speaks to his ability to motivate young athletes. Recently he delivered a pregame speech to the Souris -based Southwest Cougars AAA Midgets at the Telus Cup held in Virden. The team was excited to hear words of encouragement from such a highly accomplished coach. On June 8th, in recognition of his accomplishments and his character, the town of Souris is holdi ng a special day to honour Andy's induction into the IIHF Hall of Fame's Builder Category, followed by a charity golf tournament on June the 9th. Proceeds will go to community arena improvements and the flood recovery at the golf course.

As a tribute to h is hometown, Andy once said that his greatest motivation was to make Souris and its residents proud. I stand here today to assure Andy that he has, indeed, impressed each and every local citizen and all Manitobans with his dedication, perseverance and comm itment to hockey excellence on and off the ice. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Justice System Concerns Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Last night I received an excellent letter from Sel Burrows, co - coordinator of the North Point Douglas Citizens on Watch.

He writes: Recently two wonderful volunteers from North Point Douglas spent a total of 25 days in remand custody. One was acquitted and the other received one year probation. One of our volunteers who spent all these –those days in jail is a woman who suffers from the disability of FASD. She has problems remembering to appear for her court dates. She is harmless and a kind, caring person. Her FASD is a serious disability which occasionally interferes with her functioning. Everyone in the community cares ab out her. I personally put up her bail last time so she wouldn't

May 30, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1933 spend another week in remand. What a waste of remand space. The fact that a 70 -year-old senior volunteer and a woman with FASD would spend a total of 25 days in remand, while two men who are charged with a horrendous number of firearms offences are released on a promise to appear shows how totally incompetent our justice system is. When will society intervene and say our Justice Department is totally insane. Sorry–that's a powerful word, but that's how it feels.

The jailing of people who are minor annoyances and the release of serious criminals is beyond comprehension. We will continue to maintain North Point Douglas as a relatively safe area. We would really like to see the MLA for Minto he ld accountable for the horrendously inefficient justice system. Signed, Sel Burrows. I'd also like to mention Maureen Anderson, who came to visit me yesterday. She's on a crusade to improve the caring for people in hospitals and personal care homes.

Her husband, a wonderful man, was in Deer Lodge Hospital, and, sadly, as a result of inattention or neglect by a staff person, he fell in the washroom, aspirated, became sick and died this past January. Maureen is on a crusade to change and improve the system. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Jennifer Howard (Government House Leader): Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker .

On House business, I'd like to inform the House that it's the government's intention to continue with second readings tomorrow, and that, as a result, the House will not be considering Estimates on Thursday afternoon or Friday morning. And I'd like to ask you to move us into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker: It's been announced that the government will be calling –intention to call bills tomorrow afternoon and will not be sitting Friday morning for supply, and will now resolve into the Committee of Supply. Mr. Deputy Speaker, please take the chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH * (14:40) Mr.

Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Order. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. Before we begin, I would like to remind members to ensure their electronic devices are in a silent mode and to also speak more closely into the microphones. This sec tion of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health. As previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. The member for Charleswood want to continue her question? Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I'll turn it over to the minister to provide an opportunity to give an answer to the last question that was asked yesterday. Hon. T heresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Yes, and I thank the member. Just prior to continuing on with our discussion concerning the STARS helicopter program, I thought I would take this brief opportunity to fill in some of the answers that I committed to get to the member yesterday. Not all of the work has been compiled, but there is some, and so I thank the staff, the deputy minister and the CFO for helping us provide some of this information.

I'll start briefly, then, just by going over some information concerning flood expenses. Just to add to the context of that, certainly we know that all departments in government, when it comes to financing issues concerning the flood, are working directly with the Department of Finance to gather as much information as possible so that funds are provided appropriately. Government is continuing to work on making even more information available. Information to March the 31st, 2012, is not yet available. It's still being calculated, and there is a commitment to make that information available as soon as is possible.

All operating expenses for the 2011 flood are incurred by emergency expenditures, and I am informed that this helps ensure transparency in flood

1934 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2012 costs and is, indeed, long- standing practice in government, including the flood of 1997. Costs were above and beyond the operating budget for any one department. And I believe I stated yesterday, but will restate in case I neglected to, overtime costs for the government of Manitoba as of December 31, 2011, were close to $1.6 million. Further, Mr. Chair, I would add there were some questions yesterday concerning Dr. Kettner. I can tell the member that Dr. Kettner's severance was, indeed, in accordance with his contract.

It will be reported publicly, like the compensation for any other provincial civil servant over $50,000. There was a question concerning an individual who left my office and moved into the department, Katarina Cvitko. Katarina came into my office, as I stated yesterday, in an admin position that she won through competition. She later beca me intake co - ordinator and then she made a lateral transfer into the department to serve in an administrative position. This was not a competition, which is common, I am informed, in the case of lateral transfers.

We–as the member I'm sure would know, we r equire–usually require competitions for promotions. The member asked a question yesterday about somebody else on my staff, and I would just confirm for her that Breigh Kusmack was appointed to the position of project manager in February of 2012. I would also add for the member, concerning a minister's office staff wages–so for the purposes of remuneration and benefits political staff are subject to the provisions of the MGEU collective agreement. That means for the two years that there was a wage pause that was indeed the case for political staff. That's just expired.

They've recently received a cost - of-living increase, just as the civil servants did in April 2012. During the wage pause some members of my office staff received merit -based increases, while others did not. This was based on where they were on their respective scales. I referenced steps on scale yesterday and, apparently, I was correct. Civil servants were subject to the same provisions, I am informed. And there was a question concerning increases in minister's office or deputy minister's office: Why do the salaries go up for staff?

Again, deputy minister's office staff is covered by the terms and conditions of the MGEU master agreement. The agreement runs from 2010 to 2014 and contains a two-year pause on cost of living in the same way that most public sector unions were paused, like, for example, the MNU. Normal HR practices would still occur, such as steps on scale, which is why you may indeed see changes in the overall total salaries in a cost centre. That's in any centre, not just my office. And the last questions that were posed yesterday concerning the STARS contract, forgive me if I –I think there were three in a row.

I might miss one. I believe they were of the nature about why did I have the information that it would take roughly 18 months to get the program up and running if we built our own here at home. Am I correct in recalling that's what the question was? If the member wants to pose them again, I'd be happy to roll forward. Mrs. Driedger: In the regards to the 18 months, the minister had indicated that it would take 18 months for a made -in-Manitoba model, and she said some folks suggested that it would take that. My question to her was who were those folks that told her that. Ms.

Oswald: As I indicated yesterday, individuals in our EMS branch were tasked with the job of reviewing and doing analysis on how it is we might go forward to offer ambulance helicopter service in Manitoba, following 2009. As I said yesterday, I think every Manitoban that was aware of what was happening with the helicopter ambulance, without a doubt, to have their hearts and minds captured by some of the very compelling stories, indeed, not the least of which, was that –the young boy that was rescued from the culvert.

And, in 2009, we asked the department, our EMS branch, to do this analysis to see how we might be able to proceed with a helicopter ambulance service. We had to get more information. We were pleased with STARS, but we committed to get more information. It was during that analysis that a variety of times were brought forward, through doing a provincial scan, through looking at what kinds of infrastructure was available, and it was the branch that came forward and said that, roughly, 18 months would be the time that it would take to build a program from the ground up.

There were individuals that I spoke to that said it might take a little less; there were individuals that I spoke to that said it might take a little more time. But, on average , the report that came back, at that time, was in the neighbourhood of 18 months that it would take.

May 30, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1935 And so, as I said yesterday, in 2011, when STARS came to assist in the –with the issue of doing emergency medical transport during a much larger flood than 2011, we had more information. We were also able to ask STARS more questions and get more information from them. And, in the end, we based our decision on two primary criteria, as I stated yesterday. Most importantly, ensuring uninterrupted life -saving service and, indeed, looking at demonstrated experience in delivering safe, high -quality ambulance helicopter service.

No industry provider in Manitoba offers ambulance helicopter service. Some, of course, offer non-health-related helicopter services, others offer air ambulance services but in an airplane, but nobody offers helicopter ambulance service. So, we made the decision based on these criteria: uninterrupted service and demonstrated experience, to go forward and to commit to contracting with STARS. We believed very clearly then, as I believe today, it was in the public interest to make that decision, and I would do it again. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate who in the branch did the actual review? Ms.

Oswald: Yes, it was a compilation of work that was being done in our EMS branch. There was teamwork going on. I'll commit to the member to go back and ascertain names of individuals that were involved in doing the work, but, broadly, I can say that it was a team effort within our EMS branch. Mrs. Driedger: And can the minister just indicate who that team met with from the aviation industry in Manitoba? * (14:50) Ms. Oswald: Yes, I can go back and ask those questions. But I would also state for the member, that our EMS branch have–has ongoing conversations with a variety of providers, land and air, in Manitoba.

They have a very strong worki ng knowledge of the kinds of technologies and the kinds of infrastructure held by different companies in Manitoba. They're, I believe, very skilled in knowing about capacity in Manitoba and so, certainly, whether or not individuals met with other individua ls may or may not be a salient point. Again, you know, I'll endeavour to get some of that information for the member as she's requesting but, in the main, let's make sure that we understand that our EMS branch, you know, has an ongoing working relationship with a variety of providers.

I would also extend to the member the information that, in the –at the end of June in 2011, Manitoba Health announced that it had signed an MOU with STARS to make the helicopter ambulance service permanent in Manitoba which, of course, set the stage to finalize the permanent contract. There had been no other organizations expressing any interest before this date. In February of 2012, I understand that there was an inquiry from a provider expressing interests in offering the service. There was review done of that inquiry.

It was determined that the company did not possess the requisite experience in providing specialized ambulance helicopter service. And, most importantly, when we look at the criteria that we used to make o ur decision, it absolutely could not ensure uninterrupted life -saving helicopter service.

So, I would just say to the member that, when we consider the fact that we wanted to ensure that we followed through with a highly skilled organization with demonst rated experience–I put the wrong information on the record yesterday, I said 25 years of experience; it's 26 years of experience, I am corrected–over 20,000 missions and an organization that was able to continue in an uninterrupted way, we went forward in using the information that we had in the best interests of Manitobans.

So I'll make these inquiries in the department about the whos and the whens and provide for the member, wherever possible, information that I'm able to share. But I would say, broadly, that we believe that we had good information, and that choosing the uninterrupted experts to deliver the service was, indeed, a good decision for Manitobans. Mrs. Driedger: And just so that the minister's clear, my questions in no way are a reflection of the skills or abilities of STARS. That is not the intent of why I'm asking any of my questions.

It is more about the process of–and the direction the government chose to go into on this. So my questions are more related to, you know, government decision m aking and not, in any way, do they reflect upon STARS itself. Certainly, I'm aware of their experience, and the number of activities that they're involved in, and the expertise that they have. So, it's not related to that at all.

1936 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2012 I would note that at the time the minister was going out with this issue that, certainly, members from the Manitoba Aviation Council had expressed some concerns and they, particularly, had indicated that there were a number of provincially based operators who were well equipped to bid on this contract. And they are indicating that there are at least two that could have bid on this contract. And they're wondering why they were shut out of the bidding when they, in fact, said two of them could have bid on the contract. Ms.

Oswald: Yes, again, I would reiterate for the member that we looked very closely at what our opportunities were, and being able to continue the excellent service with STARS in an uninterrupted way was really important to us. We, certainly, saw that their ability to integrate smoothly with our EMS system was undeniable. We knew that they brought this wealth of experience with them and we knew that any individual company in Manitoba that might be interested would be doing it for the first time, never having done it be fore.

And we, you know, respect various air providers in Manitoba, but it was our decision, our unapologetic decision, to go forward in providing this uninterrupted service. We had had experience with STARS; we had had conversations with STARS; we had done analysis, and we felt that making this choice in providing uninterrupted service was, even though without tender, in the public interest. And, clearly, others supported that decision. We know Saskatchewan also entered into an untendered contract with STAR S.

So we believe we've made a good decision here and I respect the member's right to be asking these questions, and I'll do my best to answer them, but I would say, once again, that in the public interest for all Manitobans, we made the decision to go with STARS. Mrs. Driedger: Certainly, when there's a tendering process, there's a level –a very high level of scrutiny about contracts.

Without having a tender process here and with sole sourcing the STARS helicopter, can the minister tell us where the level o f scrutiny was in this contract because, basically, you know, none of that is then a well-known entity and certainly raises some questions about where was the level of scrutiny, then, in the project. Ms.

Oswald: Yes, and again, I want to be clear with the member that, you know, I have great respect for processes that are in place to ensure transparency and accountability and I have great respect for the office of the Auditor General who, of course, would fully support tendering processes and business proce sses and the like, and –which is why the vast majority of arrangements that we enter into in the Department of Health, of course, fall in the category of using tendering and that process. We felt this situation was special.

We felt that, in the public inter est, it did merit going forward with an untendered contract, as did Saskatchewan, by the way. And we worked carefully and diligently through the deputy minister's office, with oversight, you know, specifically from him, with oversight from our financial te am, with oversight from our EMS branch, and, indeed, with oversight from legal counsel to ensure that we were entering into an arrangement that was of the highest standards and above board. And I have great confidence that Manitobans have been beneficiarie s of a very important decision in continuing to move forward with STARS.

We know that we are in a position with Saskatchewan and Alberta now to seek all kinds of benefits, from sharing services and equipment and expertise across the provinces, and we believe that the negotiations and the contract was carefully monitored, and we believe that this is going to be a very good situation for Manitobans going forward, as it has been in the months that have passed, where the service was able to be provided in an uninterrupted way. * (15:00) Mrs.

Driedger: Is the minister aware that since 2005 the aviation industry in Manitoba has lost significant ground, and is she aware that by sole -sourcing a $100-million contract that it has really sent out some bad signals? Does the minister not think that it would've been at least good for industry and good for, I guess, business in Manitoba if she would have at least gone through a tendering process? And perhaps STARS would have won that process, but does she not think that it would at least, for a $100-million contract, not have been a good thing to do?

Especially when I would say that on the government website on the procurement branch it says, and I quote, to ensure that all qualified and interested potential supplies – suppliers are extended the opportunity to compete for provincial government business. So, if the government was really sincere in that statement, it does beg the question, you know, why was it sole -sourced instead of at least allowing potential suppliers to bid on the contract? Ms. Oswald: So, I would reiterate for the member, just going back to the question she asked previously,

May 30, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1937 that of course we feel very comfortable that the STARS contract was reviewed and scrutinized. We've–we know they've contracted wit h other provinces, and certainly that increased our comfort level with the financial aspects and, indeed, with operational aspects. I said yesterday, of course, that we complied with all of our –all the directives from our Treasury Board regarding untender ed contracts.

We complied with all of those processes that they have in place for these occasions, as I said yesterday, albeit rare, where an untendered contract is indeed in the public interest. I would also say to the member that we do a lot of work with the aviation industry through the Department of Health concerning the Northern Patient Transportation Program. We view them as very valuable partners. We believe we play a very significant role in what their industry has to offer.

I would say very clearly that when the member asks me about the things that I'm aware of, whether it's the business potential in the aviation industry or any other number of things, what I feel in this instance I'm mos t aware of is that the STARS helicopter, by offering uninterrupted service, has transformed the lives in that time of over a hundred people.

Certainly, many of those, I'm informed by the medical professionals, would be very simply not alive today but not for the interventions of the STARS helicopter, and for others, as the member in her medical training would well know, the outcomes have been improved substantially for those people, those just 100 people in that time that, had we chosen to go another rout e, would have meant interrupted service when it comes to an air ambulance.

And so, again, Manitoba Health works closely with the aviation industry in other capacities, but we believed strongly and passionately that we needed to make this decision in the best interest of Manitobans and in the best interest in the lives of their loved ones. Mrs. Driedger: Now, I understand the contract with STARS is for 10 years. It's a $100- million contract over 10 years. It is $10 million a year. A number of people are a l ittle bit surprised that the government would enter into a 10-year contract versus a five-year contract. Can the minister give some indication as to why that decision was made? Ms.

Oswald: Yes, in discussions and negotiations with STARS, 10 years was the number that we landed on. I may stand to be corrected. I believe it is similar to what the other provinces have, but, again, I'll go back and double-check for the member. I would note for the member that there is a clause in the agreement that enables review as appropriate. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell us what $10 million a year gets for that amount of money? What does Manitoba get for the $10 million a year? What is it spent on? Ms. Oswald: Yes, as the member is probably aware, this is essentially a flying intensive care unit.

It's, without a doubt, the most critical care that we provide. So, you know, everything that would go along with that kind of service being provided in the confines of a helicopter, staff and all of those amenities, would be included in that cost. Mrs. Driedger: So for $10 million a year, is it just buying service, or does it buy the helicopter as well? Ms. Oswald: It does not buy the helicopter. Mrs. Driedger: Who pa ys for the maintenance of the helicopter? Ms. Oswald: Yes, we're going to go back and look at the details of what's in and what's out for the member.

But I neglected to add in my last answer, again, I'm–you know, certainly, by the line of questioning by the member, I'm again becoming, you know, clearer, at least in my mind –and I should stand to be corrected if I am misunderstanding in any way. But the line of questioning would suggest to me that the member certainly would believe that tendering for the helicopter would be the preferred option and that would be the route that the members opposite would have chosen to go, you know, should they had been in the position to go forward.

Am I correct in that assumption, or am I reading into what –reading into the line of questioning from the member? Mrs. Driedger: Certainly, what I am asking the minister about is the level of scrutiny by her government and herself in moving into this particular contract, and so the questions are related to how the government went about making the decision to move into a sole -sourced contract. And I think the questions are very fair. We are talking about taxpayers' money, and my questions are totally related to how the government scrutinized this whole

1938 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2012 issue and by doing it in a sole-sourced way it tends to be less transparent to everybody. * (15:10) So all I am looking for is trying to fill in some holes in terms of how the government has actually made the decisions around this and, certainly, it's a big, big chunk of money. So I don't think the minister would, you know, think it was a bad idea to ask questions about it, because we are talking about a $100 million and, you know, each province is setting this up in a certain way, so there are a lot of questions.

And, because it w asn't through a –you know, a tendering process, I have no other mechanism to look at this. So, my only mechanism is to ask questions right now, of the government, in terms of why they did what they did. So, I need to be clear, and I certainly don't have that sense right now, in terms of what do we get for $10 million a year? Ms. Oswald: And I thank the member for that answer. And, certainly, I believe that she is absolutely within her right and her role to ask questions about expenditures in the Department of Health.

And an expenditure of $10 million a year, is– as would any other expenditure, be a very legitimate one to ask questions about. So I don't want the member to think that I don't want her asking questions. I–I'm–I happily receive them and do my best to provide the best answers possible to her.

And, again, I would reiterate, on the point of scrutiny of contracts, that our department, our EMS branch, between '09 and 2011, did a lot of analysis and a lot of thoughtful reflection on the question of whether or not we would enter into a contract with STARS, whether we would grow our own helicopter program here in Manitoba, both having their pluses and minuses, without a doubt.

And so, it was this kind of analysis that went on, in addition to the engagement with the STARS organization, that really, in my view, ended in a very, very important, forward-moving initiative when it comes to emergency care in Manitoba. So, again, I would reiterate for the member, that when situations do arise, when it's in the public interest to enter into a –an untendered contract, there are processes that are in place at Treasury Board, and we complied with all of those processes and answered questions.

And, believe me, the people at that level ask lots of questions –seem to never end in the asking of the questions –and they're good questions. And, certainly, my department worked very closely with that level of government. And, in addition, the deputy minister, our financial department –very competently led by Ms. Herd, our EMS branch and, indeed, legal counsel, all paid very close attention to the arrangement and the organization of the contract.

We know, also, that the STARS organization brings with it the STARS Foundation, which has done excellent work in Alberta in terms of fundraising, and that work– that–those resources, go directly back into the program for its enhancement. And, certainly, our contract with STARS takes into consideration that there will be monies contributed in–back into the operations of STARS. We know that there already interested parties in Manitoba that have come forward expressing an interest. I'm probably not at liberty to say who they are because that's the business of the STARS Foundation.

But I can inform the member that that work is already taking flight, if you will. So all of these things together helped us in coming to the conclusion that the demonstrated excellent experience that STARS brings to emergency care and the uninterrupted nature of their being able to continue with the service is what made us come to that conclusion and that decision in the best interest of Manitobans. And we believe there was very intense scrutiny on the kinds of work.

It may not be the same as the process that one goes through in a tendered situation, but this does n't mean that scrutiny was not present at the time. To just answer the question–the member's question concerning maintenance, and fuel, and so forth of the helicopter, this is included in that contract, as is everything that would be involved in providing an intensive care unit in the air. Like, the equivalent thereof. It's arguably among the highest level of emergency trauma care that can be provided. So that service, the maintenance, the fuel, all of those things comprise what we're paying for year over year. Mrs.

Driedger: And does that get Manitoba one helicopter? Ms. Oswald: It does provide a helicopter, a helicopter for Manitoba, but it does also provide us access to the fleet where necessary and, again, as I said earlier, we're working now on building opportunities with the partnering provinces who have

May 30, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1939 also entered into agr eements with STARS. But in Manitoba it's a helicopter at present. Mrs. Driedger: And can the minister indicate who pays for the hangar and the office space and whatever infrastructure is needed to house this service? Ms. Oswald: Yes, we'll go back and double -check. I'm assuming that it's within the context of that contract, but in the spirit of being fully accurate, I'll double-check to make sure about that. Mrs.

Driedger: So can the minister explain why, for one helicopter, Saskatchewan only paid $5 mil lion and why are we getting that same service and paying double the amount, at 10? Ms. Oswald: Yes, it's my understanding that there was a private donor in Saskatchewan, and that would bring their actual full cost up to the same as Manitoba. Essentially, their money's for the foundation that they're building in Saskatchewan, as STARS has in Alberta, as well, would have kicked in earlier than it will kick in here.

Again, I might stand to be corrected on that, but that's the information that I have, that they had, I believe, a $5- million donor, I think, from industry, coming out of the gate. But I can double-check that for the member. Mrs. Driedger: Now the–yesterday the minister was indicating, well, in Manitoba, you know, was able to get into this and they were happy in 2011 because it was important, and they wanted to do it, and that Saskatchewan was sort of dragging its heels.

Is it maybe that Saskatchewan was doing their homework and instead of taxpayers there having to pay $10 million, Saskatchewan had all their ducks in a row first, and taxpayers there are only paying $5 million because they had their business plan and their business processes better in place? * (15:20) Ms. Oswald: Well, certainly, we can speak of ducks, you know, in a linear fashion, or not. I would suggest that, in Manitoba, we wanted STARS to continue saving lives and didn't want to wait for a corporate donor to come along to start the program.

As I said before, in the time that would have been interrupted, it made a difference for a hundred families in Manitoba, and there is a foundation that accompanies the STARS organization in Manitoba and they will do their work and they will contribute to bring down that $10-million amount in Manitoba. But, certainly, it was, without hesitation , our decision to have the program continue in an uninterrupted fashion. We, I would say, had ducks aplenty, and they were very straight, and if you're not convinced of that, I'd ask any one of the members of those 100 families what they think about ducks. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister indicate who came up with the $10 million? I understand that in 2011-12, Manitoba will have spent about $8 million on the STARS program and, in a FIPPA, it indicated that it is difficult to provide an exact amount, as STARS has been operating under an interim agreement, and under that interim agreement during that time, STARS billed Manitoba Health based on actual operational costs for each given month. So was the $10 million a projection of what everybody thought this would cost, or is there an actual breakdown of what the $10 million is made up of? Ms.

Oswald: I can inform the member that, indeed, the number would be a forecast of what it was anticipated the program would cost. I would also clarify for the member that the numbers that we were paying for during the times that STARS came to Manitoba in '09 and for a time in '11, they were here to provide an emergency service which would be a different kind of service than having a full program here in Manitoba, and all of those implications.

So it wouldn't–those numbers wouldn't, I am informed– and it is also logical, I think– wouldn't be exactly the same as what a full program would cost versus what we were paying for a temporary emergency -type service. So, again, the $10- million number was one that was entered into in negotiations with the organization and with our department's work and efforts to do that negotiation and, indeed, does appear to be consistent with the kind of arrangement that Saskatchewan has entered into as well. Mrs.

Driedger: Now, it appears that Saskatchewan is getting two helicopter ambulances for $10 million, but Manitoba, this year, is still going to be at one helicopter for $10 million. Can the minister give some indication as to why that difference might be in place? Ms. Oswald: I believe that the member is correct. They–I think the Saskatchewan information that we have is, indeed, that they have paid $10.5 million for '12-13. The rest is, indeed, being covered by donors.

And, again, I want to reiterate, especially if anybody in the field that is coming forward with their donations is listening, we know you're out there. We know that these talks are going on. I don't

1940 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2012 mean to imply that we don't have any; we do have them. That work has to be done by the STARS Foundation and organization and they will make their proclamations when they're ready to do so. But, certainly, when we began our negotiations and discussion and entered into our agreement, we went in with the agreement that it would one helicopter. I think service in Saskatchewan began in April after 48 months of negotiations. So they may have made some different decisions at that time.

We believe that making the decision to enter into our agreement more swiftly has been a good thing for Manitoba. We've always said we're not closing the door in adding to the program, but we're going to do our analysis. But for now that is what the arrangement is in Manitoba. Mrs. Driedger: Knowing that, you know, in this instance, if the government had been a bit more on the ball here, taxpayers might not have had to pay $5 million, but instead, now, taxpayers are bearing the full cost.

If Saskatchewan could get all their ducks in a row and get the ir fundraising in order, why wasn't this government able to do the same thing? Ms. Oswald: So to be clear, then, the Conservative Party of Manitoba would have chosen to wait 48 months before starting the helicopter program. Is that what the member is saying? Mrs. Driedger: What the member is saying is that why did this government drag their heels if Saskatchewan's Saskatchewan Party could actually get their fundraising done and get a program in place.

Why has this government, even now, a year after signing an interim agreement –they've had lots of time–why are the taxpayers bearing the full cost of this when, in fact, you know, the government is indicating that there will be fundraising? Why didn't they get their fundraising, then, in place quite some time ago? Saskatchewan was able to do it, and so my question to the minister is: Why couldn't she have done the same thing? Ms. Oswald: As I said before, we felt saving lives was more important than corporate donations, and we made the decision, in partnership with STARS, to offer uninterrupted service.

They were here in 2011 for the flood. We had an opportunity after we had done our analysis to enter into this agreement with them and not have them leave. As I have said, this has meant the difference on outcomes and life and death for a hundred families in Manitoba, and I believe that our department did excellent work in ensuring that STARS was able to offer continuous service. And I don't know which one of those families the member would go to and say, if it h ad been us, we really needed to wait for a corporate donor. We didn't want to save your loved one.

I have a hard time imagining, frankly, the member doing that. I personally don't think she could. But what I'm hearing is that waiting 48 months, which is what Saskatchewan did –they made an announcement about entering into an agreement with STARS, 48 months passed and then the helicopter took off in Saskatchewan. * (15:30) In Manitoba it came for the flood. They spoke to us about an opportunity. We had done our analysis since '09 in looking at the variety of issues that we would have to take care of and we made a decision, for which we do not apologize, that we would pay $10 million for the helicopter.

We would work with the STARS organization and the STARS Foundation to build fundraising, which is actively under way. We did not have a $5- million independent donor, I concede that point. But we decided that the lives of Manitobans were more important, and that was the decision that we made. But we're –we are clearly seeing a difference here. We're seeing that waiting 48 months would be, perhaps, the preference of Conservatives in Manitoba; it was not our preference. Mrs.

Driedger: I–you know, this is a serious issue, and I see the minister is going down the road, again, as she always does, of trying to twist words and twist questions. And this has nothing to do with, you know, the–what the Conservatives would or wouldn't do; I mean , that is just pure hypothesis. And the minister is trying to play her little games again, and finally–and frankly–I find them very offensive. The longer I'm in this job, having to deal with this minister, I find her political partisanship becoming more and more offensive all the time.

The questions are purely based –and I think it's great that we have an air ambulance here, and I think it's good that we're saving lives. And that isn't the issue at all, and the minister knows that, you know, even, you know, going back a year, it was something that we are totally supportive. It's about how a government does business, and whether they've got business smarts in terms of the direction that they've

May 30, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1941 chosen to go. So right now –and it's not even– you know, there's a bit of chirping on the other side: Well, the Conservatives would drag things out and wouldn't do anything. Well, maybe the Conservatives would've had their ducks in a row. Why is it taking this government a year to– they've signed that interim agreement, which, actually, I have a copy of, and really surprised at the few inches of comment that there were–commentary that there were–in that agreement.

The government was in such a rush to move forward with this that I don't understand why they didn't, say, take some time; they've had a year. I don't know why they wouldn't have taken some time right at the beginning, as they're putting this business case together, to go out and see if there's any sponsorship that would have been there. Saskatchewan can pick up the phone and make one phone call, and here we have a government –a year later, after signing an interim agreement that would move them into a bigger contract, we still don't hear anything.

So it's not about who values lives more; it's about who can get the job done and get it done well. And so, I wish the minister would just stop her game playing and just move into the issue of–yes, lives are important, but where's the government's, you know, skill in putting a business case together, and where's the fundraising for this? She's had a year to do it, so where is the fundraising on this? This is part of the whole big STARS program.

Here we are, you know, a year down this –they were so anxious to get this done before the election so that she could be standing s ix times with this red helicopter–where is the fundraising that is supposed to be a big part of that? Alberta has, what, five helicopters; 75 per cent of the costs of the STARS program in Alberta is done by fundraising. It looks like in Saskatchewan probably half of it. And here in Manitoba, with typical NDP, taxpayers are paying the full cost. I mean, can't this government get its act together? There's the question for the minister. Ms.

Oswald: We're exceedingly clear about we would and wouldn't do. No confusion whatsoever, we made a decision that lives were the most important thing, and we went forward with the contract. Absolutely clear –non-partisan–we did not tender, because we would not tolerate a delay and an interruption. And what I'm offering the m ember here is an opportunity to be equally as clear. Would the Conservatives have tendered and tolerated an interruption in service, yes or no? Mrs. Driedger: If the minister would like to switch roles with me and take the opposition chair, she is definitely welcome to it.

She knows the challenges, and if she's so anxious to have the ability to ask questions, certainly, she has the opportunity any time she wants to switch it up. So, as the roles are reversed, I think she knows full well that it's her job right at the moment to be accountable and to be transparent and not to try to sneak things over the heads of the public, and I hope that she will move forward in an ethical way and in a genuine way and do her job as the Minister of Health and be forthcoming with information.

I asked the government, in a FIPPA, for information about the revenue that is coming from government, and the FIPPA refused me the information. It says, for the government portion of revenue information related to 2012-2013 fiscal year, please be advised that your request is refused, because it was information, I guess, discussed at Treasury Board.

So I can't even find out, and so I'll ask the minister because, through FIPPA, I was trying to find out, you know, where's the revenue coming from, because we know in the news release– and the minister had her photo op or a few –she had her, you know, fame in front of the camera, and then, all of a sudden, you know, they're saying, well, this program is going to be funded through government funding, community fundraising, individual donors and corporate support. So she's out there, numerous times before the election, letting everybody believe that this is where the funding is coming from.

So I FIPPA 'd the government and I asked for the breakdow n for 2011-12 and '12-13: What percentage is coming from government? What percentage is coming from the community fundraising? What percentage is coming from individual donors, and what percentage is coming from corporate support? And the government refused to give me the information. So that, to me, is stunning.

You know, if everything is supposed to be so transparent –and that's why this sole -source contract is a little bit disconcerting is because the government is not coming clean and coming forward in a transparent way with where the $10 million is coming from, from all of those partners in this that she had a great time standing in front of a camera telling everybody about before the election, and then, after the election,

1942 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2012 I can't find out who's provi ding the funding for the helicopter. So maybe the minister now–that was March 30th that I received this information –maybe the minister now could provide some information of the $10 million that is funding the helicopter this year. What percentage is comin g from government? What percentage is coming from fundraising? And perhaps she might want to indicate in there how many individual donors and corporate support they have in place, because that's the model of the STARS program.

So maybe she'd like to provide this information now that her department refused to give me just a few weeks ago. Ms. Oswald: And, really, where to begin? [interjection] The member gets very exuberant when I posed to her a simple question, and the standard operating procedure is to say, we'll let you know. I'll happily trade places with her. But the fact of the matter is, Mr. Chair, that during the election campaign the Conservatives promised a helicopter, a couple of them, in fact, I think.

And, you know, while we're on this subject, I believe, put a shiny picture of a helicopter on the front of their campaign materials. Really? Really, she's going to talk to me about pictures? The irony abounds. * (15:40) 'Anyhoo'–so the member gets very excited and gets in a flap and uses the word "ethics" and, you know, questions my integrity and various and sundry other issues, when all I have done is provide her an opportunity for all Manitobans to see very clearly – indignation and arm flapping aside –to just tell Manitobans, we promised that we would provide a helicopter.

Here she has an opportunity to say –and we would ensure that there wouldn't be an interruption in service. They can promise a helicopter but then be wholly secretive and closed about how it is they would have entered into an arrangement about a helicopter. We're being completely open and saying we made a decision that people's lives would be so much more important than hanging around for 48 months waiting for a corporate donor.

We knew, based on the analysis that we did, that Manitoba was ready, the STARS organization was ready –they had 26 years of experience, over 20,000 missions flown– and we knew that providing that service would mean the difference for, at the time, what was an estimated 35 to 50 lives saved. That's what the medical experts told us. What we know to be true, however, is that in that intervening time we've seen transformative interventions, some of them life and death, some of them on outcomes, made all the difference for 100 Manitoba families.

So we made that decision, and we made it unapologetically, that we would engage with STARS and that we would offer that uninterrupted life - saving service. And no matter how I ask the question, flapping my arms myself, perhaps, or calmly, in subtle melodious tones, I can't ge t an answer from this member.

And honestly, based on the line of questioning, I believe that I and anybody reading the text or listening must come to the conclusion that the Conservative Party of Manitoba would believe that going 48 months or more without the service that they had in the palm of their hands would be the decision that they would make.

And I, again, if I am incorrect in that assumption, which is becoming more and more clear to make as more information comes onto the record, then I implore t he member to just clarify the record and let us know that, no, indeed, like the Saskatchewan Party we would enter into an untendered contract with STARS. But, you know, I can't seem to get an answer out of the member, and, again, if she's going to use the – such language as ethics and morals and so forth, I believe it's incumbent on her and incumbent on every member of this House to not only dish it out but take it.

I think that that's a reasonable thing to expect from grown-ups. And so, when asking a que stion such as this, I would merely reflect on the fact that, for reasons that are unclear to me, we can't get an answer out of the Conservative Party. [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Little bit–be calmed down, and I think that questioning going back and forth, we are not reaching at any conclusion on this point. I don't think this bickering will take us anywhere. Therefore, I would like to come back to the normal questioning and answering today. Thank you. Ms. Oswald: Mr.

Chair, it seems I've struck a nerve because the member has descended into name calling. Heaven forbid that I should quote some of the ones I've heard.

May 30, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1943 Moving on, I should say to the member, in reference to the question asked earlier, that the costs of the hangar for the –the costs of the hangar are, indeed, included in the $10 million. I would also say to the member, as evidenced by the books that are provided, that in start -up in Manitoba the STARS organization has, within the context of that $10 mi llion, a $2- million fundraising target to come out of the gate, which would bring taxpayers' costs down substantially, by $2 million.

The STARS organization, as the member has rightly said, has done excellent work in other provinces. We don't have any doubt that their foundation, who will be responsible for the fundraising, as is the case with other health foundations –we don't have any doubt that they're going to do excellent work here in Manitoba, which will endeavour to offset the cost to taxpayers. I also wanted to go back, Mr.

Chair, to say that in some information and analysis that our people are doing on the fly, so to speak, right here, I can tell the member that, indeed, the operational costs for the helicopter in Alberta, in Saskatchewan and, inde ed, in Manitoba –they are the same. Manitoba is not getting a comparatively rotten deal. We have not had–in fact, a $25- million potash donor –we haven't had a donor of that magnitude for the STARS Foundation in Manitoba as of yet. But we have, from our perspective, made the decision that uninterrupted life-saving service was a priority for us. Full stop.

Not a partisan molecule in sight, and we would make this decision again. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate, and I think she just might have –she's ind icated that – annually, that STARS is targeting $2 million for fundraising. Did I understand her correctly in saying that? And, I guess, can she also indicate whether or not they're held to the $2 million or whether they can fundraise to whatever degree they want, or is their fundraising held to the $2 million a year, and how does she monitor that? Ms. Oswald: Yes.

I'm assuming when the member uses the expression "are they held to it," I just–I want to be clear, I –first of all, there's no limit to the amount that the STARS organization can fundraise. We encourage them to do that and, indeed, we know that they have had phone calls already from individuals and organizations in Manitoba who have, you know, a very personal reasons for wanting to contribute; they h ave been deeply touched by the work that has been done. I am of the understanding that there's corporate interest as well, so certainly they can raise as much money as they want. We embrace that.

If, indeed, they did not meet the $2-million threshold, if y ou will, for lack of a better word–I don't know if that's the right word, and it was because they didn't make any effort at all and that was evident by our analysis, then government, of course, would have recourse under the existing agreement that allows for a review. But, no, they can raise as much money as they can. Mrs. Driedger: And the minister has clarified it for me, that the $2 million is the minimum expected as – in terms of fundraising in Manitoba. Am I accurate in understanding that? * (15:50) Ms.

Oswald: Certainly, the $2- million estimate and proposal that that's what the foundation will raise is for the first year, but it's not through the course of the agreement. We actually anticipate, of course, based on what has happened in other jurisdict ions, that once they become more established, their foundation becomes more experienced here in Manitoba, that we'll actually see more fundraising happening. Our estimates will, indeed, reflect that. But as a starting point, that's what was agreed to, the $2- million number. Mrs.

Driedger: And, if they were to raise $5 million in a year, does that money then go back into Manitoba, and does that $5 million in fundraising then mean that the government only has to pay $5 million and the fundraising has paid $5 million? Ms. Oswald: I can–the short answer is, yes. Indeed, if the organization were to raise 5, then we can use that money to offset the cost of the program so that taxpayers, essentially, would only pay 5e and, indeed, monies raised by Manitoba donors stays in Manitoba. Mrs.

Driedger: And through what mechanism is the government informed about how much money has actually been raised here in Manitoba? Like, how does the government keep track of that fundraising? How much is actually raised here in the province? Ms. Oswald: The–we have regular meetings scheduled with the STARS organization. As part of those meetings the department would receive updates concerning monies that had been raised in Manitoba and would track them that way. Mrs. Driedger: Now, the minister indicates she would hope that STARS can come in and raise lots

1944 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2012 of money. What happens if they raise $12 million? Do they –does that $10 million then go into fully funding the helicopter, and then does STARS Foundation get to keep the other $2 million? Ms. Oswald: We direct how the money would be used. So it could be used to build a new hanger, to enhance the program, but it doesn't go back into a STARS central pot. It would be directed to enhancing the program. I hope we have that problem. Mrs. Driedger: And can the minister just confirm that all Manitoba money raised in Manitoba, stays in Manitoba? Ms. Oswald: Yes it does.

Mrs. Driedger: We all know how difficult fundraising has become in Manitoba in some instances. I mean, we're seeing Osborne House, for instance, struggling. They've lost significant amount of fundraising dollars. I think there's a number of organizations that are actually feeling the pinch. What kind of analysis has the government done in terms of how fundraising, generally, is going to be affected in Manitoba, whether it's for diabetes or for cancer care or for, you know, any number of organizations?

If the government is going to open this wide and say that STARS can come in and raise $10 million, what kind of analysis ha s been done to show how this is going to impact other organizations fundraising in this province? Ms. Oswald: Yes, Mr. Chair, I'd make a couple of points about this. First of all, we know that Manitobans are consistently among the most, if not absolutely the most, generous people in the nation when it comes to making donations. And we don't anticipate that that's going to change.

They donate money, they donate time, they donate blood, they donate organs; you name it, Manitobans are always answering the call. And we, again, don't anticipate that changing anytime soon. We know that organizations that work very hard to raise funds do it for a reason. We believe that having this service in Manitoba, one that Manitoba has never had before, is something that, certainly, Manitobans are going to get their heads around and be enthusiastic to participate in.

And we know that the fundraising environment can be a competitive one and, as has been the case in other jurisdictions, the STARS organization will become a responsible, a respected player in that environment. And I would also add, again, that the $10-million number that the member posed in her question is the number that she poses. We, certainly, have set our target with the organization, particularly in this fi rst year, at this time, in the climate, at $2 million. So that's really what we're looking at them endeavouring to do.

It will be something that Manitobans will make their choices about and, again, as the member says, there are all kinds of reasons why f undraising can be more or less challenging in an economic cycle. And we believe that STARS will be a very responsible foundation with which individuals will endeavour to make their donation, or not. But we believe that having this kind of organization among us is undoubtedly for the betterment of Manitoba families. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate who from Manitoba has a seat on the board? Ms.

Oswald: Yes, there are some names that have been put forward but they've not yet officially been named to the board. I think that's coming June –next month. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate how many seats are on the board? Ms. Oswald: Yes, Manitoba will h ave one seat on the board, and I will let the member know –one on the–we'll have one member on the governance board, one member on the foundation board, and I'll have to let her know next time what the total number of seats are. We don't seem to have it at our fingertips. Mrs.

Driedger: One of the articles, it was actually in The Minnedosa Tribune , indicated that the –and this must have come from a government announcement, and I don't know if it was just an

interpretation of the media–indicated that the prov ince will spend $5 million to purchase the helicopter, and that annual operations and staffing costs would come in between 1.5 and 2 million dollars. * (16:00) So is the minister indicating, then, that the $10 million is strictly for service provision a nd that there is no infrastructure owned by Manitoba then? Ms. Oswald: Yes. I'd reiterate for the member that the $10 million is for the intensive care unit in the air. It is for the service. It's not for the helicopter. Manitoba has purchased the helicopter, but that is separate from the contract.

May 30, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1945 Mrs. Driedger: Can the min ister repeat that last part? Is she indicating that the government has purchased the helicopter? Ms. Oswald: Yes. To be clear, we'll get information on it –my verb tense. We may be in the process of paying for it or we have paid for it. I will let the member know. But the cost of the unit itself is separate from the contract. Mrs. Driedger: Okay. Can the minister explain that when she's talking about the unit, what does she mean? Ms. Oswald: I mean the helicopter. Mrs.

Driedger: Okay, now she's got me re ally confused, because earlier she said that Manitoba hasn't paid for the helicopter. Now she's saying Manitoba's buying a helicopter. Can she clarify, then, what she's talking about? Ms. Oswald: Sorry. I'm not sure which portion of my answer the member's referring to. I said that the $10 million pays for the service and the other elements of things that we talked about, like the hangar and the maintenance and the fuel and so forth.

But that–those monies don't include the cost of the helicopter itself –the physical structure, the thing that goes up and down in the air, that's separate, and that Manitoba is paying for that separately. And I know you're going to ask me the question, how much did that cost, and that's being looked for. Well, if we can tell you today, we will, otherwise, we will afterwards. But, no, I don't think that I've said that we didn't pay for the helicopter. I said we were paying for the service, just to be clear. Mrs.

Driedger: Well, that's all very interesting, because when we phoned the public relations people at STARS they said that no province owns their own helicopter, that STARS owns them all. So why is Manitoba, then, also putting out –and is it $3.5 million, I guess? And maybe the Minnedosa Tribune was accurate then–or $5 million–what is the government paying on top of the $10- million service to STARS and, then, how much more are they paying for the helicopter? Ms. Oswald: So as I am informed, the–for a number of operational reasons, STARS is the owner of the helicopter.

But if, indeed, we cease our contract with STARS, the helicopter becomes the property of Manitoba. So we are paying for the helicopter, that is true, but there are operational details in terms of, you know, how the helicopter functions, who's responsible for the helicopter, the safety, the maintenance and so forth that would make what they said to you on the telephone quite correct. But we have paid for the use of that helicopter, and should they cease to do service in Manitoba, that would be an asset owned by Manitoba. Mrs.

Driedger: And as –the agreement indeed does say that Manitoba pays for the helicopter and yet, in discussion with STARS, they say in all cases STARS owns the helicopters and not the Province. So, if that's what STARS was telling us, why, in the agreement, is Manitoba paying for the helicopter when STARS is saying in all cases STARS owns the helicopter and not the Province?

I know that the agreement does say that if the agreement is terminated the government owns the helicopter and takes ov er the base, but in the agreement it also says that Manitoba pays for the helicopter and will guarantee funding of the Winnipeg base. So it sounds like we're paying for the helicopter, we're guaranteeing funding of the base and we're paying $10 million on top of that for service. Is that accurate? Ms. Oswald: Yes, just to be clear–I'm not sure that I remembered the list of things that the member just said, but I'll try to repeat back. We pay for the physical asset, yes.

For operational reasons that I just explained, STARS is the owner of that vehicle. In the event that our relationship should end with STARS – and, of course, we do have that proviso in the agreement that that review can occur –the asset belongs to Manitoba. And so, again, I, not having been privy to her conversation with individuals on the phone in Alberta, I can reiterate for the member: we have a $10-million contract per year with the STARS organization. They have a $2- million target for fundraising, which, indeed, they can exceed, of course; we'd be happy about that.

And we –that includes maintenance, fuel, the hangar and so forth. But the $10 million concerns the ongoing operations of the unit, and the cost for paying for the helicopter is separate from that. Again, it is operationally required to be viewed as their helicopter, but it is Manitoba's asset if that relationship should be severed in any way.

1946 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 2012 Mrs. Driedger: Earlier, I asked the minister about fundraising and whether all of the fundraising money stayed in Manitoba. In fact, in the agreement with STARS, it does indicate that excess goes to a reserve fund that may or may not be applied to the Manitoba operation. So is the minister clear, then, what's in this contract or not, because there is indication that the STARS Foundation will fundraise for Manitoba.

At least a portion of the donated funds can be applied to reduce the government's operating cost payments and excess goes to a reserve fund that may or may not be applied to the Manitoba operation. So why would the minister indic ate that all of it stays in Manitoba when, according to this contract with STARS, it's saying quite the opposite? * (16:10) Ms. Oswald: Just a couple of points. I guess I would make the comparison here to nonprofit personal care homes. You know, we technically don't own them; the faith -based, non- profit organizations that run them do, but we fund them.

I think that it could be seen in an analogous way, just going back to a previous statement. And, again, I want to reiterate, it is our understanding, in conjunction with the STARS organization, that monies raised in Manitoba are for Manitobans and to be used for Manitoba. I'm going to have my officials double check that that reserve fund that is being spoken for, we believe also applies to Manitoba. But, I m ean, we will, in abundance of clarity, get back to the member on that. But our agreement with STARS is such that Manitoba money is for Manitoba. Mrs.

Driedger: Oh, the minister may want to have a look at it because I did have a lawyer look at it, and that is one of the things that was interpreted through the contract. So the minister may want to have another look at that particular issue and–because what she's saying is not what's in that contract. So, with a seat on the board, what is the reporting mechanism back and forth between those board members, one from each board, to Manitoba? How does that work? Ms. Oswald: I'm informed by the member –two points.

One, t hat the reporting relationship to government actually falls within the agreement, within the contract. So, you know, all of the accountabilities and transparencies, you know, would actually be happening from the organization to the department. The board it self would function as would any other board where that –those individuals would report to the STARS organization, but our reporting mechanisms come through the agreement to–from the organization to the department. Mrs.

Driedger: So what, I guess, authority does Manitoba have to intervene in some issues if there were some problems that came up or there were some issues that came up because STARS is a separate entity? It's also a charitable organization. We saw what happened in Ontario with Ornge , where Deb M atthews, the minister in Ontario, said she didn't have any ability to intervene when there were issues going on with their air ambulance program.

So what are the reporting mechanisms of back and forth between Manitoba Health and STARS, and does the ministe r have any authority in intervening if there were some issues of concern to her? Ms. Oswald: Again, the nature of the agreement and the contract is such that there is ample opportunity to intervene and review. There's also a termination clause if that was deemed to be necessary. We certainly don't anticipate this, based on the stellar service that STARS has provided in Canada over 26 years and 20,000 exemplary missions.

We, of –we didn't enter into this agreement lightly, as I've said to the member a number of times. When we had our experience with STARS during the flood of 2009, we were able to see up close and personally the exceptional professionalism and, arguably, second-to-none care that was provided. All Manitobans were able to see how dramatic their interventions were, with the little boy who was trapped in the culvert, and lesser -known life -saving situations–during that time a mom and a baby out in the Steinbach areas. Lives were saved as a result of STARS.

So we certainly saw how excellent their work was, and in that intervening time between 2009 and 2011, when the department was doing its analysis and looking at all the component parts, that we would need to consider, everything from human resources, its–the helicopter's integration into our current EMS system, its integration into using MTCC from Brandon, all of these things were considered very carefully.

And when the opportunity arose, because of the very difficult and challenging situations so many Manitobans faced in 2011 with the flood, if t here was a silver lining to be had at all there, it was the return of STARS to Manitoba and the return of their excellent service at a time when we had done analysis and STARS had had an

May 30, 2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1947 opportunity to view their own capacity, and

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	40-1-42
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	40th 1st hansardpdf 42.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f9fdf79336f1f9f6e81d9cd2c52114317b6d9f72

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).