Volume 4 ,,. PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, APRIL 4, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 25

April 4, 1975. The House met at 11:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please'. Tape 1026 PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Hermitage. RH - 1 MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of 286 residents of Seal Cove, Fortune Bay in my district. The 286 people who signed this petition represent just about the complete adult population of the community. The prayer of the petition is that the government undertake to upgrade the road from Seal Cove to Sandyville.

Anybody who has travelled over that road will realize that it is a road that is in very desperate need of upgrading. I would like to read part of the petition because it does set forth rather well the nature of the problem. The petitioners say and I quote: This is probably the most used road on the Conaigre P~ninsula. The majority of the residents of Seal Cove are loggers and have to use this road to commute back and forth to work. Seal Cove has no harbour facilities and so frei~ht shipped to Seal Cove by CNR boats must be unloaded at Hermitage and trucked to Seal Cove.

At Seal Cove there is no service station, no library, no supermarket and no banking facilities. In order to partake of these much needed services, the residents have to travel to Hermitage. Also, fish caught by the fishermen of Seal Cove must be trucked to Hermitage. Mr. Speaker, that paragraph alone, of course, underlines the importance of the road to the people of Seal Cove. The harbour at Seal Cove is such that the coastal boats cannot land there and so, in effect, the only, their only access with the outside world, their only access with the other parts of the Province is by that one road.

About 700 people depend on that road link. It is a very bad road. It is a road that is in immediate need of upgrading. I have discussed this matter with the minister responsible and I- indeed, recently we had correspondence on the matter. In his reply to me, the minister

April 4, 1975. Tape 1026 RH - 2 was not able at that time to indicate whether this matter would be taken care of this year or not. I certainly hope that he will be able to indicate to the House now that the road will be looked after in this particular year. As I suggested yesterday, contrary to what the minister has been saying, decisions are being made about upgrading and paving of roads this year. At this very moment, I believe, tenders are being called for another road project in this same immediate area. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The honourable Member from Hermitage is certainly free to speak to the prayer of the petition he is presenting, but not get into a speech on other general matters pertaining to other things 1to the Department of Transportation and Communications. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am well aware of that and I was using as an example a road in the immediate area. I am saying, Mr. Speaker, that in view of the need, in view of the precedence that the department is already setting in this matter, there is no reason whatsoever why the minister cannot now stand and indicate that this project will be undertaken.

Seven hundred people depend on it and on it solely for their contact with other parts of the Province. I do not believe there is any other part of this Province where the need for an adequate road connection is more pressing. The petitioners have not particularly mentioned paving though, of course, this is certainly a stage which they would like to have the road upgraded to in time, but they are talking now about having the road upgraded.

It is not a costly project, but it is one that is urgent and if this government had announced its five year road building programme as it has given notice it Wl!luld do many, many times in the past, we would now know what the status of this particular project is. In the absense of that, Mr. Speaker, I am obliged once again to rise and ask what the government intends to do about this road 3098

April 4, 1975. Tape 1026 RR - 3 and to urge that the project be undertaken immediately. ~-lr. Speaker, I have much pleasure in supporting the prayer of this petition and requesting that it be tabled and referred to the appropriate department . MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Labrador South. MR. M. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present a petition on behalf of 756 residents of the Straits area of the District of Labrador South comprising the communities from L'Anse-au-Clair to Red Bay inclusive.

This is a follow-up to a petition pre­ sented last year in a similar vein and ·the fact that they have had to present it twice, I think, is an indication of their genuine concern that some action be taken on this. The prayer of the petition reads: 309 9

April 4, 1975 Tape no. 1027 Page 1 - mw

WHEREAS the part of Labrador from L'Anse-au-Clair to Red Bay, _connnonly known as the Labrador Straits, has by the recent redistribution of provincial electoral districts been attached to the district across the Straits of Belle Isle on the island part of the Province; AND

WHEREAS the Labrador Straits area forms only a small fraction of the new electoral district; AND

WHEREAS this fraction is so small as to have no real influence on the outcome of a provincial election in the district; AND

WHEREAS this redistribution appears to be a direct attempt to limit and to curb the political power and identity of the Labrador territory of the Province; AND

WHEREAS the ~ecent redistribution has in fact decreased the elected representation of Labrador from three seats out of forty-two to three and a small fraction out of fifty-one; W~, the undersigned voters of the Labrador Straits area,request that the recent Act of Redistribution be so amended as to give the territory of Labrador at least four complete electoral districts, one of which shall include the Labrador Straits area. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would just like to point out to honourable members that in the voters' list prepared in 1971, the total number of eligible voters in that area came to 758.

The number of signatures on this petition, as I have said, is 756. So that is pretty good representation. I ask members to seriously consider this, not as another political move as it might appear to be on the surface, but these people are genuinely concerned that they are going to lose their voice in the House of Assemb~y. I ask that this petition be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates.

April 4, 1975 Tape no. 1027 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. HON. E. M. ROBERTS (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, if nobody on the government side wishes to speak in respect of that petition, may I say a word or two in support of it? I think our position was quite clearly set forth in the rather extensive debate which occurred on the Redistribution Resolution, so I do not intend to repeat that. Let me say simply that we do support it.

We think that the request is a reasonable one, both for four seats and also for a seat which will not see the Labrador Straits people, who live in these communities from L'Anse-au-Clair up to Red Bay inclusive,become a small part of another seat. Now I have a very real interest in the area. It is not impossible th~t I may be seeking the nomination in that area. The Member for Labrador South mentioned that there are 758 people registered on the voters' list. And the most recent voters' list would be the 1971 list.

My information, Sir, is that, using the same voters' list, the electors in the Labrador South portion of the Straits of Bell Isle riding form about fifteen per cent of the eligible electors and there is roughly one out of six and a half or one out of seven voters lives in the Labrador South riding, the Labrador South part of the new district. Well I think that with all the good will in the world that shows that they are going to get one-sixth or one-seventh of the attention of any member who divides his time fairly and equitably among his constituents to try to serve all their needs.

The people of the Straits portion of Labrador have very real needs that a member should and would try to help on but he would not have a fair opportunity to do so. I think the request is a reasonable one, Sir, and I suggest to the honourable member, and I would gladly support such a move if he wished to do it, he might consider introducing a private members' bill to amend the House of Assembly act. The House of Assembly 3.:_01

April 4, 1975 Tape no. 1027 Page 3 - mw Act is not an expenditure motion, Mr. Speaker, It can be amended by a bill other than a bill introduced by a minister. It will be quite in order, I think, if the honourable gentleman wished to bring in a bill to amend the act in that respect, to give the Labrador portion of the Province four seats, to leave the Straits of Belle Isle seat as being the Northern tip of the peninsula would still be well within the boundaries of, you know, the principles laid down in the Redistribution Bill adopted by the House two years ago or a year and a half ago.

The people of Labrador South, Sir, or the people of Labrador generally are getting the shaft, to use an ineloquent but expressive phrase. The member has put his finger on how they are getting it and the member and I know why they are getting it. I think it is obvious that this government, Sir, are out to hurt Labrador and this is one of the ways they have chosen to do it. I hope the Premier will speak, and I hope the Premier will say that they will bring in this amendment, not that it will be considered, we have been already sucked in on that one, but that the government will make this amendment.

It is a reasonable one and it should be done now while the voters' lists are being taken. It could be done in a day in the House. I am sure there would be unanimous support if the government decided to support it. We support the point, Sir. We support the petition, and I hope action will result. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F, ROWE: Mr. Speaker, as the Member for St. Barbe North, that district, of course, will disappear and become part of the new district of the Straits of Belle Isle district.

I rise in support of the Member for Labraddr South in supporting his petition, because, Sir, the present part of St. Barbe North that will become part of the Straits of Belle Isle district, I think, will only represent approximately twenty-five per cent of that total district. And the 310Z

April 4 , 1975, Tape No . 1028 NM - 1 people presently residing in St. Rarbe North are extremely concerned over the fact that the size of the district has been increased dramatically as a result of redistribution and the fact that the Straits

section of Labrador has been adderl onto it, which is, after all, separated by, although a narrow stretch of water, a stretch of water which is frozen over and blocked full of ice for five or six months of the year and of course stormy conditions exist in that area and the need, Sir, of the Straits of Relle Isle side of Labrador are tr~mendous, as are the needs on the Straits of Relle Isle on the Newfoundland side. What essentially has hapnened is that 2 seats, 2.6 seats I guess, or 3.6 seats have been taken and made into two. Thie is what has happened.

And the neople on both sides of the Straits, particularly my own constituents, are very converned over this increase in geographical size and in copulation when they have a very dispersed population, great number of c011111unities, most of which do not have local government and therefore depend upon their provincial member and their federal member for anv type of representation that they can get to government.

So, Sir, I fully support the netition presented by the Member for Labrador South and it is indeed aad, Sir, that government has seen fit to change the reco111111endations of the royal commission and gerrymander that part of the Province, where in fact they have taken three Liberal seats and converted them into two. Hear! Hear! ANSWERS T.Q__g_UESTIONS FOR WRICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Minister of Transnortation and Connnunication~.

HON.J .ROUSSEAU (Min_!ster of Transp~rtation and Communications)~ I have aquestion posed yesterday by the honourable the Leader of the Oonosition concerning some roads in the southern area of the Province and I have checked this matter out and undertook to bring the answer back today. The gravel roads in Mount Carmel and North Harbour areas have 310J

April 4, 1975 TApe No. 1028 NM - 2 been graded and are in fair driving condition. Sections of the road towards Mitchells Brook, which is in the council area,had a soft spot but his has been filled in by this department, If council wants gravel we will loan them the same free of charge. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: I do not know. I suppose - maybe yesterday, maybe last week. I do not know. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Tourism, Sir, promised us a few days ago to get some information on the sailing of the Norma and Gladys to Tokyo and Japan, Does the minister have the information now? Will the minister care to supply the House with the details concerning this voyage to Japan? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. T. HICKEY, MINISTER OF TOURISM: Mr. Speaker, a couple of days ago I said that within two weeks, something like two weeks, all the details would be available and then I would provide all the details.

I am not in a position to answer that question now and negotiations are still incomplete. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister could tell us if the Norma and Gladys is on dry dock now, if she is being gotten ready for her voyage across the Atlantic to Japan? Where is the Norma and Gladys now? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to fall for that one. If you do not get an answer one way you rephrase the question another way. I am not saying, and I have never said, that the Norma and Gladys is going to Japan or going anywhere out of the Province as yet.

I will tell the honourable gentleman that to the best of my knowledge, it is in Clarenville. I do not know if it is on dock. It was floating the last time that I heard of it. But I do nGt keep an eye on it every day 1 you know. MR. ROBERTS: The minister has had no repu~ts of any decision. 3104

April 4, 1975 Tape No. 1028 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Would the minister care to tell the House if there is a captain and crew on the Norma and Gladys at the presen t time, if they have been hired or will they be hired? MR. BlCKEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there 1.s a crew. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. HICKEY: They have been hired and have been working in prepar!.ng the vessel for quite some time, but this has nothing to do with any voyage around the world or to Japan or anywhere else.

This is in line with the whole concept of restorin g the vessel in the first instance and that is to do a provincial tour and to sail into various communities around the Province as part of our heri tage and part of the - to remind the younger generation and all our people of the Bank fishery . This was the whole 310~

April 4, 1975 Tape 1029 (morning) concept this is why the crew was hired and this is the purpose of those people being there employed. It has no relation or nothing to do with any proposed voyage outside the Province. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to try another question on the Minister of Tourism. Could the minister tell us now what the position is on the S.S. Kyle, the ship that was supposed to become the floating museum, was it in Salmon Cove? MR. ROBERTS: Or Northern Bay Sands. IB-1 MR. NEARY: Northern Bav Sands as promised by the Minister of Health in the last election. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, I can provide a little detail on this ship. It was the original intent of the government to see what could be done to restore that ship, and for that purpose it was purchased. After doing so,because we were led to believe that if we did not some one else would take it outside the Province which we did not want to take any chances on, afteran intensive investigation, we were informed that this was not a viable proposition, a very costly one if in fact it could have been accomplished. MR. NEARY: How much would it cost? MR. MURPHY: $4,000. MR. NEARY: $4,000? MR. HICKEY: I think it is something like that.

I do not have the exact figure. At least it was a very small cost in terms of what value might have come if the project had gotten off the ground as such. Based on the investigation it was found that the proposition was not a sound one. Then we decide~ to get rid of the ship and get our money back so we called for public tenders and we have received a number of tenders. SOME RONOURABLE MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could answer the question and then those people can have a chat later. It is rather difficult trying 3 1 0 ,., J. t,

April 4, 1975 Tape 1029 (morning) IB-2 to out•shout people and my voice is not the strongest in the House.

We have received a number of tenders and because at least one of them that I can recall is higher than what we expected to get, I felt that it was necessary or in the best interests of those people who are interested in this ship to determine just who the company was, what they intended to do with it because in view of the fact that the government had decided not to restore the vessel because of economics, I felt that at least I should determine whether or not someone else planned to do just that and if in fact the investigation that we had carried out was an accurate one or just what the situation was.

Now, we have the d~tails on all the people who submitted tenders except one and we should have that, I am told 1 in a matter of a few days or a week at which time I will be able to make a decision and award the vessel to one of the people who submitted the tenders. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Sir. Am I correct in assuming from the minister's answer that there is no possibility at all of making a floating museum out of the S.S. Kyle? ruled out completely? That possibility has been MR. HICKEY: That is correct, Mr. Speaker.

The only possibility, and it is a very slight one indeed, and that is there have been some suggestions in recent days that the ship should be palled ashore and propped up and any number of things done with it to preserve it. Now, what that would entail, I do not know. This is being looked at, but I am not so optimistic that we will ever do that. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. What about the S.S. Cabot Strait? Is the minister taking a look at that one to see if - because I understand she is going to be scrapped, and make a floating museum out of the Cabot Strait.

She is still afloat and seaworthy I understand. MR. HICKEY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think we have got enough ships for the time being. We do not plan on going afloat ourselves you know. In terms of museums, I think we are doing fine. We are doing better museum-wise than ever this Province has ever done, getting more money. A very fine staff, getting all kinds of money and all 310i

April 4, 1975 Tape 1029 ~morning) IB-3 kinds of assistance through their efforts in conjunction with the people at Ottawa. There is no plan to buy up every ship that is going out of service. 3108

April 4, 1975. Tape 1030 RH - 1 MR, NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I presume that the Minister of Mines and Energy, Sir, is within hearing distance of my voice. I have a very, very urgent matter for the Minister of Mines if the minister is listening to my question, I would like to ask the minister if it is true that the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Corporation threatened to cut off the supply of power, Newfound­ land Hydro from the Thermal Generating Plant here in Holyrood if they did not reopen their contract, if Newfoundland Light and Power did not reopen their contract with the Power CoIIllllission?

Were they threatened that their source of power would be cut off' or at least part of their source of power? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. HON. L. BARRY: The honourable member, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is presumably referring to the recent rate hearings, state­ ments made during the course of the recent rate hearing by Newfound­ land Light and Power, Mr. Speaker, he somehow has managed to encompass several days of hearings and transcribed evidence into one sentence. He has got the essense of the entire rate hearing, Mr. Speaker, in his usual inevitable way. Mr.

Speaker, this government does not threaten anybody nor does any crown corporation threaten anybody in this Province and if it is every found that this would happen, Mr. Speaker, this govern­ ment would do something about it, The situation is purely and simply, Mr. Speaker - Sorry. I am so used to having your colleague super­ vising debate, Mr. Speaker, that you have to pardon my lapses. AN HONOURABLE MEMBEB.: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: Is that what he does? Mr.

Speaker, the situation to which the honourble member opposite is alluding is that the Power Corporation, soon to become Newfoundland Hydro, indicated to Newfoundland Light and Power and pointed out to Newfoundland Light and Power and Newfoundland Light 3109

April 4, 1975. Tape 1080 RH - 2 and Power in turn pointed out to the Public Utilities Board and the Public Utilities Board accepted as reasonable, presumably, they authorized the increase that was requested by Newfoundland Light and Power. But the facts that were set out to Newfoundland Light and Power by the Power Corporation, Mr. Speaker, was purely and simply that unless the Power Corporation could see an improved cash flow, it would not be in a position to bring in the new generating facilities, Mr.

Speaker, that will be necessary by 1977, 1978, to meet the needs of Newfoundland Light and Power as that private utility was indicating their needs would be at that time. Now, this was purely and simply what was set out to New­ foundland Light and Power, that an improved cash flow was necessary for the corporation. The facts and figures were supplied. This House, Mr. Speaker, every year and including this year votes an amount of subsidy, an ever increasing amount of subsidy from general revenues to the Power Corporation.

The question purely and simply is, should the general taxpayer increase the amount paid to the crown corporation in order to provide these facilities to meet the needs of the private utility and other consumers in the Province or, Mr. Speaker, should the actual users of the power, the actual consumers of the power pay any increases that are necessary. Mr.

Speaker, this government's position is 1and we submit that it is the position accepted, not just right across Canada but in all countries of the world, the principle is that the user of the power or the user of any product should prove, should pay~rather~the true cost of providing the product or the service, whatever it may be, that that is the only way you avoid serious misallocation of resources, Mr. Speaker. If you have hidden subsidies, indirect subsidies, first of all, you do not have the market price working to assist the con­ servation efforts of this government or any other government. Secondly,

April 4, 1975 Tape No. 1031 NM - 1 you have the general taxpayers' · dollars being provided to, not the general population but to a ll!llllller percentage of our population, namely the users of power and as we all know there are some members of our population that are heavier users of power than other. So unless you have the price reflecting the true cost of providing the product or the service, then one group of our citizens are getting an advantage at the cost to the population as a whole, So this is why, Mr. Speaker, the Power Corporation submitted and Newfoundland Light and Power accepted that MR.

NEARY: No, they did not. MR, BARRY: They most certainly did. They signed an agreement with the Power Corporation that in order to improve the cash flow of the Power Corporation to permit these additional facilities to be put in, Mr. Speaker, the contract would be renegotiated. That is what was done. That is what the Public Utilities Board has approved and, Mr. Speaker, I do not think that there is too much concern being raised in the general population about this.

I think everybody recognizes when you look at the fact that fuel prices have quadrupled, in some cases gone up five times, for periods of time, that a fifteen per cent increase in the rate payable for electricity, Mr. Speaker, is not unreasonable in this time of rising costs. This, I think, is the answer to the honourable member's question, MR. NEARY: A supplementary question to the honourable the minister, Sir; is the honourable Minister aware that the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities had their hands tied behind their back, that there was no way they could check out these claims of increased costs ?

They did not have the jurisdiction to check them out. They had to take the word of the Newfoundland Light and Power and the Newfoundland Power Co111111ission, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Is the minister aware that there - MR, SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable Member for Bell Island is proceeding to make a speech and it is not in the form of a question. It is 3 ,; ,: 1· .l. J.

April 4, 1975 Tape No. 1031 NM - 2 more of a statement of fact than a question. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, I put two questions to the minister. Is the minister aware that the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities had no jurisdiction, no power, to check into the statements that were made by the Newfoundland Light and Power and the Newfoundland Power Commission when they made their application before the Board? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, again we have the honourable member engaging in his normal exercise of setting out part of the case, or of twisting existing law to distort what the actual situation is, In law today, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is right when he points out that the Public Utilities Board does not have jurisdiction over the Power Corporation. However, Mr. Speaker, the Public Utilities Board does have jurisdiction over Newfoundland Light and Power and unless it is satisfied with the facts presented by the Public Utilities, Mr. Speaker, presumably it is not going to reach a decision with respect to the application.

MR. NEARY: It does not have any choice, MR. BARRY: I do not agree with the honourable member. He says it does not have any choice. T.hat is his opinion. I have also indicated, Mr. Speaker, that this government believes,and we hope to see over the next year or so the situation brought in, or the situation changed where the Crown Corporation can be made accountable for its general operation.

We think that it is useful, Mr, Speaker, to have the Power Corporation,or for that matter any Crown Cot:"poration kept on its toes by being subjected to scrutiny from consumers, from the general public, from honourable members opposite or whoever and as I have mentioned before, we are looking at the situation that now exists in Ontario where they have a Provincial Energy Board that does not regulate the public utility but that does require the executive of the Corporation to come before it and to provide answers to questions,that has a public hearing and permits representation by consumers, by members of the general public an<l we hope to see our situation moved to that stage, 3112

April 4, 1975 Tape No. 1031 NM - 3 But as I pointed out, we cannot do it overnight. We have to, and the Corporation has been put on notice that that is the way we will be moving, We have to permit them to adjust their operations to anticipate getting ready for this exercise because it is not something that they can do overnight, particularly when t~ey have so much on their plate with respect to the Lower Churchill and other very important areas of energy policy in our Province. 3::.i J

April 4, 1975 Tape no. 1032 Page 1 - mw We hope to see the Province move to the stage where the Crown Corporation will be subjected to scrutiny by the general public as well as honourable members opposite or anybody who is interested in going to them and asking questions. They, of course, now, Mr. Speaker, are subject to scrutiny in this honourable House whenever the estimates come up. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of widespread public opinion that there was an appearance of blackmail involved in getting this increase on the part of the Newfoundland Power Comnission, would the minister undertake to have this whole matter thoroughly investigated and a report presented here in the House on this whole matter of this increase-and ttew of the fact that there are reports of energy rip-offs on the mainland? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Would the minister - MR, SPEAKER: Order, please! The Hon. Member for Bell Island is making a speech. MR.

NEARY: Would the minister care to investigate this matter as the minister who reports to this House on behalfr,of the Newfoundland Power Corporation? MR. BARRY: Ng,; Mr.

Speaker, I will not undertake to investigate this matter, To do so would be a shocking interference with the responsibilities of the Public Utilities Board, We have set up, Mr, Speaker, an independent Public Utilities Board that handles matters such as the revision of the Newfoundland Light and Power Contract, and it would be a shocking interference with the operation of such a board to engage in the exercise that the honourable member suggested, particularly, Mr. Speaker, when I have yet to have brought to my attention the unusual circumstances or the rip-offs that he is referring to, What is he referring to?

What is the serious affect or the serious consequence in our Province that would necessitate such action? 3114

April 4, 1975 Tape no. 1032 Page 2 - mw MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the minister's answer, Sir, and I wish to debate it next Thursday afternoon at the Late Show. Sir, I would like to direct a question - MR. BARRY: I will be away next Thursday,by the way. MR. NFARY: Well then you will have to get the spokesman for all government departments to speak out. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: You will be away, too, the Energy Conference. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: That is a good day to debate it. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications. And I would like to ask the minister if he could state his government's p,sition on the Dalton Royal Conmission that was set up to determine a suitable port of call for the CN boats on the Burin Peninsula or on the Southwest Coa•t? Would the minister care to comment on it? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Transportation and COllllllunications. HON. J. ROUSSEAU (Minister of Transportation and Colllllunications): Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge we have had no involvement whatsoever.

This is completely a federal study and it does not fall within the jurisdiction of the provincial government or the Department of Transportation. The ports which are involved,between provinces, which are a federal matter and I would refer the honourable nmmber to the Federal Ministry of Transport. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. My colleague asked, and I would like to ask again, what position the government have taken? I agree, you know, there is no question of involvement. That is not the issue.

The issue is ra~her, what position the government have taken with respect to the reconmendation made by

April 4, 1975 Tape no. 1032 Page the late Mr. Dalton in his report? Do the government agree with it or not? That is the question. 3 - mw MR. ROUSSEAU: Well, I will have to undertake that for an appraisal, really, if I may and give you the answer.- I will be away Monday, - sometime next week. MR. ROBERTS: A further supplementary. I thank the honourable gentleman, and I will look forward to the answer. But are we to conclude that the government have not yet taken a position? ls that what he is saying, is it? MR.ROUSSEAU: No. You know, this is the first time the matter has been raised.

To my knowledge, no, but officials in the departlllent may have corresponded with officials from the department. It has not been at the ministerial level. MR. ROBERTS: Okay, there has been no position taken at the ministerial level. A further supplementary then, Sir. Would the minister undertake to find out exactly what his colleague, the gentleman from Placentia West was saying when he said in the Burin Post that the government had taken a position with respect to it? Would he also answer that at the same time, please? ' MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I submit, on a point of order, that the honourable member is indirectly asking a question of myself, and I submit that I shall have the opportunity of answering the question. MR. MURPHY: Sure: Sure! MR. BARRY: It is the usual, sly, Mr. Speaker, technique which the honourable member opposite is engaging in for political purposes. If he wanted the answer to the question he could ask me, and I am perfectly prepared to give it. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that I should be permitted to answer that question. MR.

ROBERTS: To a point of order, Sir• If I wanted to ask the schoolboy debater,the gentleman from Placentia West1 a question, I would ask it of him. I asked a question of the Minister of Transportation with respect to a matter of transportation policy. The honourable ") 1 1 5 ,J .l. .I.

April 4, 1975 Tape no, 1032 Page gentleman may make a speech outside the House or inside 7 but I submit, Sir, that the mere fact that he has stated 4 as government policy something which is not government policy, it may become government policy, but it is not government policy, that, Sir, gives him no right to speak in answer to a question in this House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 31. ' .,,

April 4, 1975 Tape 1033 (momina) IB-1 _MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition did ask a question of the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications who undertook to get some information. The Chair at this time is not prepared to let another member answer that particular question. _MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could I direct a question to the Minister of Justice? Ia the Minister of Justice going to be in his seat. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Okay then.

Well, would the acting Premier, the Government House Leader, the Minister of Fisheries, please inform the House if the member for the district of Burin, the Minister of Justice, has ~eceived a petition from residents of St. Lawrence conceminf a port of call for CN ships on the Burin Peninsula? MR. CROSBIE: I would not be at all surprised if he had, Mr. Speaker, but we will have to check and get exactly accurate information since he is not here now. MR. NEARY: Well then, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary - MR. CROSBJE: He is meeting with some policemen downstairs. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary to the minister or the acting Premier. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Would the minister and the acting Premier care to state what the Minister of Justice's attitude is towards this petition that he received from residents of St. Lawrence? MR, CROSBIE: The Minister of Justice's attitude towards anything he receives from the district of Burin is that it is good. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Would the minister care to indicate whether the Minister of Justice, the member for Burin, supports this petition or not? MR. CROSBIE: I would have to ask him .

It has not been discussed in cabinet yet. MR. NEARY: Okay, Sir. Well, perhaps the minister would undertake to get me the information. Mr. Speaker, a question for my honourable and good and lippy friend, the Minister of Social Services. Would the minister - 3118

April 4, 1975 Tape 1033 (morning) IB-2 MR. ROBERTS : Be careful. He is smart too now. MR. NEARY: Would the minister care to indicate or care to make a statement to the House on accusations of discrimination against the Indian population of North West River where the innocent have to suffer for the guilty and are being issued vouchers instead of checks for their welfare payments or their social assistance allowances? MR. MURPHY: In answering that, Sir, has the honourable member got anything in writing or anything on that. I have not heard a word. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: He heard it on the radio - MR.

MURPHY: I have not heard a word. MR. NEARY: The minister has not heard a word. MR. ROBERTS : Inaudible. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, let me answer the question. I can only deal with things that come to my desk or to my department,of discrimination of anything else. Now, if the honourable member has any case over there and he wants to discuss it with me or tell me now, I can find out for him. But, up to this moment, Sir, there has not been one word of discrimination from Eskimos, from Indians, from Icelandics, from anybody to my department that I know of, Sir. That is all I can say. Was it on radio? _MR.

CROSBIE: It was on CBC this morning. MR. MURPHY: Was it? I did not hear it,really. They did not contact me on it. MR. CROSBIE: Do not stay up all night to listen to the radio. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, one thing I know, Sir, I know what is going on in the Province. Would the minister care to undertake to get the House any information regarding this matter that may have come from the President of the Indian Association in North West River? Would the minister care to check that out? MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, does the honourable - MR.

NEARY: Because the minister's official was quoted as having made a comment on this in Happy Valley, in Goose Bay yesterday. 3119

April 4, 1975 Tape 1033 (morning) IB-3 MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I am just wondering. Does the honourable member expect me to contact 50,000 or 60,000 clients and find out if they got - if they have a complaint, I imagine they would come to our office on the thing. Would they not? Am I right or wrong in that? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Want me to answer that question? MR. MORP'f!Y: All I can say - MR . NEARY: Could I answer - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am only asking the minister to check it out and get the information for the House.

Now, Sir, I am going back to ask my old buddy over there - MR. ROBERTS: He is too smart to fall for you "Steve". MR. NEARY : No, I think I wil 1 go after the Premier now. Would the Premier indicate to the House whether or not his government is considering setting up a mining training school in the abandoned Bell Island mines similar to the one that is going to be set up in the abandoned mines in Green Bay? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. HON, F. D. MOORES (PREMIER): Mr. Speaker, that was made very clear here the other day when I spoke in the House on that subject.

There is no definitive plan to set up a mining college or reactivate the mine in Green Bay whatsoever. It was clearly stated when I was there that the possibility of a mining college as they have in many other parts of the world - the fact is, Sir, that I think it is probably) and members of government think it is probably a good idea to look at something of this nature. But it is certainly not in the illllTlediate future nor in the definitive stage. It is something that is being looked at to see if it is viable and if it is feasible.

Such as, Sir, this cutting from the Calgary Herald which demonstrates very clearly,a mine of information, it says. Students emer~ed from an underground

section of the mine just minutes away from the center of Brisbane, Australia, the third largest city. The mine hss been operating ? '! "U .:.>.;.'

April 4, 1975. Tape 1034 RH - 1 efficiently for the past forty- five years without making a profit or producing any worthwhile ore. It is used to teach mineral and metallurgical engineering students at the University of Queensland. It goes on to say in the article, Sir, that this particular effort is of great help when one is trying to assist the mining industry in any country.

So, if we are talking about a mining future for this Province, if we are talking about developing this resource in this Province, certainly this government should and are thinking very seriously about the possibility,and I underline the word possibility,of setting up a mining exercise, if you like, of this nature. It is part of a vocational programme, if you like. It can almost substitute for an apprenticeship course in some cases. As I said, Sir, it is being looked at. There is certainly no commitment being made on it, either in Grand Bay or Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The thirty minutes for the question period have expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! 1401-01. The Minister of Fisheries. HON. J. CROSBIE: Mr.Chairman, there are a few premature carrieds there. Well, I do not want to eng,--,ge in any further long discourses, Mr. Chairman, on this subject, but just, I had better touch on a couple of points honourable gentlemen opposite brought up last night.

First, the Member for St. Barbe North is a bit - he is not quite correct. I forgot ta mention this last night, on the community stages in St. Barbe North. The Department of Fisheries itself is going to spend money,and we have our own funds this year,on upgrading 3121

April 4, 1975. Tape 1034 RH - 2 certain community stages in St. Barbe North, Anchor Point, Green Island Cove, Black Duck Cove, one or two others. We have the funds in our estimates for that. Our full Herring Programme up in the Northern Peninsula and Labrador South requires more than that requires. We want to put a new community stage at Bartlett's Harbour, Savage Cove needs substantial improvements and, of course, the central thing is a chill storing facility at St. Barbe where they will be able to hold 20,000 - 25,000 barrels of herring in proper conditions.

Now, we have not got the money in our estimates for that, but we have applied to DREE for the whole progrB111D1e. Now, if DREE participates, we will then have the wherewithal to caary out the whole programme. But certain coUD11unity stages in St. Barbe North are going to be done in any event from provincial funds this year, as are the community stages in Labrador South plus a new community stage at Red Bay. But to go on with the full programme we will need, hopefully, participation by DREE and a submission is now being made to them and I hope to get an answer by June.

We are trying to press them that this is urgent and to get the thing under­ way and we are going to carry out engineering work on this facility at St. Barbe anyway in anticipation that it will be going ahead. Now, there will be an announcement going out from the Department of Fisheries today about lobster trap replacement com­ pensation. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Yes. This is in connection with the last payment. Now, a payment has been made,as I told the House here a month or two ago. It was agreed to pay compensation of $10.00 per lobster pot, lobster trap.

Five dollars was paid to all those whose claims were accepted, $5.00 per pot and then the plan is that during the winter they make and replace their pots and they get the second $5.00 when an inspector has gone and thev have shown him the pots that they have constructed or obtained during the winter from this Lobster Pot Reimbursement Fund and 3122

April 4, 1975. Tape 1034 then they will be paid the other $5.00 for the pots that they have now got ready to go in the water. Now, -sin.c.e._.thE!> RH - 3 3123

April 4, 1975 Tape 1035 (morning) PK - 1 since the lobster fishing season will open on April 20 in all areas, except the West Coast north of Salmon Point, and there the season opens May 5 l there will be an announcement going out today. We have made arrangements to inspect newly constructed lobster trapE. Federal fisheries officers as well as officers of the Department of Social Services are going to help in the inspection survey.

There should be sufficient field staff available to inspect and count the new traps three or four days before the opening date of this year's lobster fishing which is April 20, and Nay 5 on the West Coast north of Salmon Point. And the payment will only be made on the number of new traps that are inspected before the official opening date in each area. And at that time the compensation programme will terminate. So the total payment to any claimant will be based on their new traps valued at $10 each and the previous payment will be deducted from the total value of each approved claim.

So lhat between now and April 20, or May 5 in that area of the Northern Peninsula,inspectors will be available and will be travelling to inventory the new lobster pots and then to settle up the claims on that basis. So the fishermen involved will be contacted, all those whose claims have been accepted,and this process will go forward from now until April 20, or !lay 5. I met this morning, Mr. Chairman, with the representatives of the Fisheries Association of Newfoundland,both inshore and offshore processers, in preparation for a meeting in Ottawa on April 8 - AN 110N. MI.l·IBCR : Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: with Mr.

Leblanc. And certainly the urgency of a government assistance programme being announced as soon as possible is very obvious, particularly for the inshore fishery. The inshore fishery is now commencing in some areas of the Province and it looks like we are not going to have the ice problem this year we had last year. It may be an early Spring, an early Spring fishery. And it is very important from the point of view of the fishermen and these plant operators that they know just what is going to happen so that they can determine 3124

April 4, 1975 Tape 1035 (Morning) PK - 2 what prices will be paid this year for the various species of fish. Now Munday morning I will be meeting with Mr. Cashin to get the views of the Fishermen's Union as to what the new programmes of assistance should be, and how they should be conducted, so that we will be fully briefed on what the interested parties here in the Province think when we discuss all of this with the Minister of Fisheries of Canada on Tuesday. Now,a few other points.

I am speaking this morning, Mr Chairman, more in sorrow than in anger, when I address myself to the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition. I am not going to be provoked. I am not going to be deterred from the path of quite reasonableness that I have demonstrated in this House on Tuesday - AN HON. MEMBER: Hear: Hear: MR. CROSBIE: in discussing these estimates. I am not going to engage in any, you know, repartee or vindictive ranting about the halls of this Legislative Assembly. I want to be, you know, a veritable statesman as the Hon. Minister of Industrial Development said.

But I will just touch on some of the points that he made. You know, it is difficult to treat some of these subjects seriously because politics interferes too much. Now he opened up last night, going on for about ten minutes about a regulation, a copy of a regulation I tabled here about week ago concerning forbidding the partial processing of crab, the queen crab in the Province .

And the honourable gentleman made a great point that showed how dilatorian, how negli~er.t the Department of Fisheries was and our lack of policy etc. and so on, because it was not passed until December 10, and all in all this great fuss. Now, Mr. Chairman, the reason that there was no urgency in having the new crab regulation approved was that there were only two companies in the Province who were producing semi•processed crab last year, only two, J.J. Hussey and Nickerson, and they had ceased operating. They were no longer producing t~e semi~processed crab.

So the urgency in having that regulation gazetted was therefore gone. The rest of the companies in the crab industry in Newfoundland do not semi-process, they completely process the crab. Now with the new 3125

April 4, 1975 Tape 1035 (Morning) regulation being passed, of course, it is forbidden to engage in producing semi-processed crab in this Province for this season. So the 3l2ti PK - 3

April 4, 1975 Tape No. 1036 NM - 1 point that the honourable Leader of the Opposition was trying to make, of course 1was a complete dud. It is a nothing. It is a zero. It has no teeth. It is a gummy bite. It is a bite without an.y real spirit. How is the lumberjack, the honourable lumberjack from Bell Island? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Now, another question brought up in connection with, yes, the honourable Leader of the Opposition made a - MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR.

CROSBIE: The honourable Leader of the Opposition made another point, He said the Moores Administration had promised to do all it could do to advance further processing in the Province, processing of fish. Yes, that is our policy, most definitely. Wherever we can encourage it, we are encouraging it, and _the regulation on semi-processed crab is an illustration of that. But when we get to the question of further processing in Newfoundland of frozen fish products to be sold in the U.S. or wherever, or wherever, Mr. Chairman, then you are involved in the tariff question.

And because the U.S.tariff is considerably higher on processed products than it is on bloclcs this has a big affect on how much further processing can be done in Newfoundland, plus other economic issues,such as distance from the market and so on, But the tariff is the main thing there and that is one reason why we have difficulty in encouraging further processing in this Yrovince because of tariffs and because of our geographical location. But it is certainly the policy of the government and it is certainly something that we are urging and whenever we can enforce a regulation we will.

But there is no point passing a regulation that you cannot semi-process a cod or any other species of fish that you must process through the fish stick or the fish fingers or whatever, when all the companies involved probably would have to go out of business or not be able to survive if they did it, because of the tariff barrier. 3 ; 2·· J. /

April 4, 1975 Tape No. 1036 NM - 2 So you can only do what is possible and what it is possible to carry out. So that was a non-point. The main point of the honourable gentleman last night was a non-point. Well,then the honourable gentleman went on again and he twittered and fluttered and flittered about trawler~, thP. government trawler programme 1 and was completely inconsistent because after twitting the government about the government's proposed trawler programme, he went on to make an attack later on when he twisted my words about using the catches of foreign fleets to process them in Newfoundland.

He went on to ~ay how Canada should build fifty trawlers and one hundred trawlers and several hundred trawlers so that Canada could take all the fish within the 200 miles of the East Coast of Canada. Well that is the whole point of the government's proposed trawler progra11D11e,which is being cheerfully looked into. It is because of this need for more catching capacity in Canada 1once the resource is under control, that the Premier announced its desired goal of having a government trawler fleet,or assisting in connection with trawlers.

Now apparently some statement was allegedly made that seven would be built by 1974 and 1975 and so on. Well 1 just look at what has been built, Mr. Chairman. The government made it possible for Fishery Products Limited to have three trawlers constructed in Norway. They have just been delivered. The third is either here now or on its way through a lease arrangment where the &vernment of Newfoundland is guaranteeing payment to the people who financed the trawlers fifty per cent of the lease payments.

There arethree trawlers there of the seven that the Leader of the Opposition was jeering about last night, there arethree, produced throu~h government action. Three brand new modern trawlers, built in Norway and all of this made possible by our decision about eighteen months ago to guarantee half the lease payments for Fishery Products. There are three trawlers there. AN HON. MEMBER: Standard practice. MR. CROSBIE: That is not standard practice. MR. NE.ARY: We established that. 3128

April 4, 1975 Tape No. 1036 NM - 3 MR. CROSBIE: You did not establish anything of the sort. You did not have the brains, the drive, the initiative to do anything like that. Occasionally you gave a loan to a company to have trawlers built and guaranteed a loan. But this is a far different thing. This is guaranteeing part of the lease payments and if the industry had not gotten to the difficulties it is in now, that is a programme that could have continued and resulted in a considerable nwnber of more trawlers being built. Nol, the economic circU111Stances have changed I suppose,·you ireuld 312~

April 4, 1975 Tape no. 1037 Page 1 - mw have to guarantee one hundred per cent of the lease repayments. Now so there are three vessels. _l{R. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: Yes, but that has been studied, and all the information and everything is ready now, but in the last six months of this crisis in the industry who is going to suddenly rush in to building a whole series of new trawlers until we have this all straightened out?

In addition to that there are the sixty-fi~e foot vessels at Marystown that will all be launched and in the water this year and the two Harmon boats, these two useless hulks that were left by the last administration, the ~ I and 11, another one - you know I only mention this because the Member for Bell Island aggravated me - two useless hulks that were left by the Liberal Administration in connection with the plant at Stephenville which went under, which folded up,the herring plant at Stephenville, These two vessels have been taken and converted by our drive and initiative and use of brains in thinking and planning and are converted now with various kinds of eq•ipment on them so they can do mid-water trawling, seining and so on.

MR. NEARY: Newfoundland Dehydrating went under too, MR. CROSBIE: Newfoundland Dehydrating went under a long time ago and the party who owned and operated it lost $1 million. So the honourable gentleman should not worry too much about that. So the Harmon I and 11 have been converted and made into something useful and usable. One is now out fishing and the other will be also had her electrical system not caught fire. So when the Ron. Leader of the Opposition got on about the seven trawlers, it was another non-point. This is why I am not aggravated or mad with him this morning.

I am able to speak in a reasonable and quiet tone, more in sorrow than in anger. Now what other points did he try to make? He tried to twist what had been said about the possibility of foreign trawlers being allowed to land some of their catch here in Newfoundland 3130

April 4, 1975 Tape no. 1037 Page 2 - mw for processing. This is what makes it difficult, Mr, Chairman, to discuss fishery policy or any policy sensibly, because honourable gentlemen opposite seem determined to want to twist everything that is said and see if they can cause some alarm in the Province, see if they can frighten the fishermen. That was the tack the Hon. Leader of the Opposition was on last night. Try and frighten the fishermen$. that if anybody is allowed ~ to land fish here for processing, you know, that whatever he catches he will not be able to sell.

You know, diabolical and nefarious .twisting of whatever is said government policy is or might be. Now just to repeat again what the concept is. Canada gets control of the marine resources up to 200 miles. Canada cannot catch - not only has Canada not got the facilities to catch the total sustainable yield, it has not got the facilities to catch, I would say, more than a third of it. Well the Premier is even more knowledgeable than I am in the fisheries, and he says, not even ten per cent.

That Canada cannot catch - ten per cent to be on the safe side - cannot catch, is not equipped now to catch - let us say 1on the safe side - twenty per cent of the proper sustainable yield from that resource. Now Canada should, of course, and we should, once it is under our control go on to see that more vessels are constructed and do the things that are necessary to increase the amount we can catch. But there is going to be a period of a number of years where Canada, no matter what efforts are put into it, will not be able to take the proper yield, the annual sustainable yield from the East Coast 200 mile limit.

And during that period, it appears to me that it would only be sensible if we can arrange it, and during that time, of course, foreign countries will have to be allowed to fish for the remainder. That will be part of any agreement reached at Geneva or even with unilateral action . And, therefore, it will only be sensible for us, if we can make such sensible arrangements, to 3131

April 4, 1975 Tape no . 1037 Page 3 - mw have some of that catch landed in Newfoundland,processed here to be shipped back to that country under arrangements that will enable us co keep people employed,or e.xpand elllployment 1n making our processing plants become more viable by processing that catch. AN BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. CROSBIE: Right. Now when the day comes, of course , that we can cake all chat catch, well then those arrangements will terminate.

Now as the Premier just points out, the thing is that you cannot allow the need for protein in the world today, neither Canada nor any other nation is going to be allowed to have hundreds of thousands of tons of protein which can be fished and which will not interfere, you know, which is a sustainable yield , not even the maximum, less than that , that

April 4, 1975 Tape 1038 (morning) IB-1 that fish cannot be allowed to go to waste and not be utilized at all simply because some country has a 200 mile limit. The other nations of the world would not stand for that, that protein bein~ wasted and never being of any use to anyone. So, that is the concept end there is nothing wrong with it, and there is nothing our fishermen need to be concerned about or worried about unless honourable gentlemen keep up what has been their tactic for the last three years of trying to twist everything that is said by anyone in the government. MR. NEARY: Be careful. MR.

CROSBIE: All right, I will be careful. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: I do not care if you do it for twenty-four hours because as far as I am concerned, I enjoy this, Mr. Chairman, so much that if we go from now until April 21 on the estimates of the Department of Fisheries I would be a happy man.

I mean 1a man could not enjoy life more than being in this chamber six hours a day, having the oppartunity to rise to your feet as many times as you like to speak and expound and listen to the sound of yonr own voice and realize that the rest of the world is going on outside and they could not care less what is happening in here. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: No, I have never done that. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENHEIMER: He is not a masochist. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, I do not want to keep us - that is right. The Minister of Education said I am not a masochist.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: A great supporter. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, he is a great fellow after my praise of him on his estimates. Let me see. Is there any other point I should make - the government should take a step - council, oh yes. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Now, I am only going to mention this just to clue the 3l3J

April /., 1975 Tape 103P (morning) thing up, but I have heard this so often now, Mr. Chairman, and I heard it from experts. I heard it from the honourable Roach from Roaches Line, the the honourable gentleman, meaning me, the honourable gentleman, that is me, has ice water in his veins.

I remember him howling and roaring over here about the ice water in his veins and all the little minions on the other side would tap the.table, and they are still parroting, the old ice water in your veins and nothing could be further from the truth because I am a hot-blooded (ahem!), warm\human being, but still I have this thrown up to me. I just want to point out that I do not agree with that. IB-2 Then the Leader of the Opposition said there was a counsel of despair and if we taking the attitude, if not economical, close it all down.

How could he get that from what is being said in this Chamber since Tuesday that my belief is that the government's policy is that if it is not economical, close it down. I mean, we are carrying on, and have heen~knowing it is all not economical, and we have no intention of closing it down. We are not discouraged and we are not forlorn and we are not full of doom and gloom. We have to face the problems that are there. Therefore, that is not the policy. As I said in this House during this dehate on four or five occasions, certain plants on the Northeast Coast, there is no question, are not economical.

On economic grounds they should not be open, but this government will keep them open because of social requirements, because there is no alternative employment for the people who work in them and so on and so forth. That has been said over and over again. Then to have the Leaoer of the Opposition get up and say that my belief was that if it is not economical, we will close them down, well, it makes one want to weep,really. I felt last night when I went home and thought about that, I felt like resigning.

I was going to bring in my resignation to the Premier this morning, but a good night's sleep brought me back and gave me the resolve to carry on despite this twisting of my words. The honourable gentleman says, the government will not take any initiative, that this government has not taken any initiative in 3134

April 4, 1975 Tape 1038 (morning) fishery matters. Well, it could not be further from the truth. 1 mean>just one example of initiative that chis govern ment has taken 18-3 is our herring management programme 1.n Northern Newfoundland and Labrador South. I t is our programme. It is our ini tiat ive . The Province has developed it and we are now asking the federal govemment to support it. That is true in a hundred areas. The Ranion I and 11 these art our projects and dozens of others ..-hen I go down through the estima tes are our projects, our initiative. This government has got lots of initiative.

The honourable gentleman said we should go to Ottawa with a great progralllllle. I remember Mr. Smallwood going to Ottawa with a great programme . I have forgotten now which election it was, 1956 or 1962. He went to Ottawa with a tremendous fishery programme and Ottawa turne d around and completely ignored it. We are not going to go up to Ottawa wit h some great ~rogramme drawn out of the sky somewhere and knowing that it is going to be turned down by Ottawa. What we are doing is co-operat ing with them in developing a programme that needs to be implemented now to save our fishery, 3l3~

April 4, 1975. Tape 1039 RH - l not to go up on some cheap publicity stuntwith a great progrannne all mapped out, ninety per cent of which we know is entirely un­ acceptable to them or anyone else with any sense at all. Now, I think then, Mr. Chairman, that I have dealt with the various points that were raised. If honourable gentlemen want to debate this heading for another few hours, I do not mind.

But I think it might be time to go down, there is a whole lot of infonnation now I have got here on individual items that I want to give the House and give the world and give the press because we have got much to be proud of in our Department of Fishery estmates. It will show what we are doing and attempting to do and why all members of the House should not hesitate one second to vote us this money and to vote us millions more that will be required before the year is out. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I really do not have the heart, Sir, to lash back at my honourable and learned friend, the Minister of Fisheries. The minister really did not answer any of my colleague's questions, Sir,and the constructive, positive suggestions and ideas that were thrown out to the minister, but he has popped the wind out of me, Sir. I do not have the heart to fight back this morning~ somehow or other.

So, I am merely going to ask the minister before we get off his salary,and I have gone over now the estimates with a fine tooth comb, would the minister please tell us before we start to go down item by item of his estimates where the George MacLean few crumbs are built into these estimates and what did he do last year to justify his existence in the Department of Fisheries? Where are the films and where are the slides and where are all the releases and how much did McLean get paid and where is the amount this year that he is going to get out of the Department of Fisheries?

Before we get started, can the minister tell us that please? HR. CROSBIE: Well, Hr. Chairman, I have been shivering and shaking knowing that this was - I nearly came to resigning because knowing 3l3ti

April 4, 1975. Tape 1039 RH - 2 that this question might very well - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: That is right. One minister was so terrified of the honourable gentleman he got out. But I have seen some horrible visions and even the Member for Bell Island does not horrify me that much. Now, where is the money in here for George McLean? I am disappointed, I am sorry, I am in despair. I do not know how to apologize enough to the House, Mr. Chairman, but there is not a cent there.

There is not a jot or a tittle or an iota for George McLean or McLean Associates or whatever in my estimates, nor last year, Mr. Chairman, were there any. No payments were made to him or any of his firm with one exception. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: No, $200 was paid for a copy of one of the fishing films.

So, $200 last year was paid out and this year there is no money in the estimates at all for it, nor do we need any assistance in 'that line because we now have our own public relations and publications manager in the person of Miss Anna Dalton who has just been appointed and I say she is going to do a first class job of seeing that every fisherman in this Province - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: What was her name? MR. CROSBIE: Dalton. That she is going to do a first class job of seeing that every fisherman in this Province knows what the government is doing and what programmes are available and so on and so forth. MR.

NEARY: kind work? MR. CROSBIE: What is she doing? I mean, is she trained in this Oh, yesi Definitely, yes, highly trained. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: She is highly trained in this kind of work. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: She is working in the Department of Fisheries, because this year we are going to see that there is perfect 313,

April 4, 1975. Tape 1039 Rll. - 3 communication between the fishermen and the Department of Fisheries. We have been hiding our light under a bushel. The fishermen think that we have done a lot, but they do not really know the extent of it, But when we are finished this year with our public relations and communicatin g with every little paper and development association and newspaper and newsletter in the Province, I do not know if any of the honourable gentlemen are going to survive this . I doubt that any of them will be back. XR.. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, before the minister sits down, what about this ireat international exposition that tool, place fo the stadium last year? Would the minister care to tell us about that? Di<l the minister's department pay for it or was there some other d.epartment of government that paid for it? Could the minister tell us if it was a success or not? MR. CROSBIE: Yes. That was a magnificent enterprise and I think that there was a lot of favourable comment on it, but it was carried out 3138

April 4, 1975 Tape 1040 (Mcrning) PK - 1 by these Silver Anniversary celebrations group. AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: That was brilliantly led by Mr. Robert Nutbeem, and that was the group that carried that out, and any money spent on it was spent in the estimates of Tourism. And1 as I say, I understand that it was quite a success, and I believe, and the government feels, and I think most of the people of Newfoundland feel that Mr. Nutbeem's management of that whole programme was brilliant . AN HON. MEMBER: Magnificent. MR. NEARY: Then, Mr.

Chairman, one more question, one more simple question for the minister. He does not have to take too long to answer it, if he does not want to. But why is it that the Minister of Tourism is sending the Norma and Gladys to Japan to promote the fisheries? Why is not the minister's department doing it? And which minister will be going to Toyko to take a look at the geisha girls and eat some rice in Japan? Will the Minister of Fisheries be going or the Minister of Tourism? MR. CROSBIE: Actually, Mr. Chairman, the minister - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

CROSBIE: I cannot interfere with the Minister of Tourism's baliwick but there is quite a competition in the cabinet to see who are going to be the crewmen. I imagine it is going to take about seventeen members of the cabinet to properly crew the vessel. AN HON. MEMBER: The Minister of Mines and Energy wants to go over for some karate. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, the Minister of Mines and Energy is going over for some karate. The Minister of Rural Development is going to engage in some sumo wrestling, although he has got to fatten himself up a bit. He is a bit too slim for the Japanese sumo wrestlers.

AndI am in charge of geisha relations, I am looking after that angle, MR. NEARY: Get a bit serious boy. MR. CROSBIE: that is if I am permitted to go by the Minister of Tourism. And I do not worry about that voyage. When she is ready to be unfurled the Minister of Tourism will unfurl her, and I think you will find that he can do more than the proper job of keeping his own 313~

April 4, 1975 Tape 1040 (Morning) PK - 2 end up. MR . CIIAl.RMAN : Shall 1401-01 carry? On motion 1401-01 carried. On motion 1401-02 through 1403-02-02 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 1403-03 carry? 11R. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, could the minister just give us a brief run-dolm on this $50,000. Is this Miss Dalton? HR. CROSBIE: This amount, Mr. Chairman, will cover - it covers the cost of tours and conferences, trainini; progralllllles, film and slide productions, audio and visual equipment, advertising, printing, community fairs avd exhibitions.

In other words,this is a programme under which we are hoping to give a lot more information to the fishermen of the Province this year, and it is the regional field workers and so on who carry out these film and slide productions, training programmes. And this is what this amount of money is. MR. NEARY: MR . CROSBIE : films . MR. CHAIRMAN: Will public tenders be called? No. They are all ready in stock. There are not any new Shall 03 carry? On motion 03 carried. On motion 1404-01 through 1404-02-02 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: rm. NEARY: in this vote. MR. CROSBIE : Shall 1405-01 carry? What is happening here?

There is a tremendous increase 1405-01 is Fisheries Development. The ,reason there is an increase in the vote there, of course, is because of the various positions that are now being filled in the Fisheries Development Department. Does that explain it to the honourable gentleman? MR. NEARY: Yes, let her go boy! MR. CROSBI.E : Jut - MR. NEARY; It means taking additional staff, I presume. But then - okay we will deal with professional people later. Go ahead. MR. CHAW IAN : Shall 01 carry? On motion 01 carried. 3140

April 4, 1975 Tape 1040 (Morning) PK - 3 On motion 1405-02-01 through 1405-02-02 carried. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, there is nothing for 03 this year for professional fees. Is this where these - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No. Is this where these B.Comms. and so forth got paid for doing their various reports for the minister's department? 3141

April 4, 1975 Tape No.1041 !-IR. CROSBIE: The amount last year of $100,000 was - MR. NEARY: Give us a breakdown of it will you? NM - 1 MR. CROSBIE: Yes, that was fees• That was the consultants who did the work, the Research and Productivity Council who did the work on the feasibility aspects of the proposed government aponsored trawler programme and for design fees for preliminary drawings of 171 ft. vessels relating to proposed trawler programmes. So it was two things. It was the Research and Productivity study which is not yet completed in its final form. It will be made public when we know what - MR.

NEARY: They have been paid in advance. MR. CROSBIE: Oh,yes, Well they had to be paid as they go along. They cannot work on nothing. MR. NEARY: But there is nothing this year and the report is not completed yet. MR. CROSBIE: No, because they are basically, they are paid now for the work that they have done up to now. MR. NEARY: Who is doing it? MR. CROSBIE: Research and Productivity Council of New Brunswick. Also there were some payments made, design fees for new types of trawlers were paid to the marine architects. So it is not expected that there be any expenditure under that this year.

The next item now while I am just on my feet here,I am going to point out the - MR. NEARY: No, we will deal with this one first, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CROSllIE: Yes, well actHall y I am dealing with it now on (04) because there is no vote this year,you see, The committee expenses of $5,000, that is the amount required for the Fisheries Development Liaison Committee, That is the committee that I described to the House the other night in which are represented the fishermen in various sectors of the fishing industry and that is to meet their travelling expenses and so on when they come in here at least four times a year. The committee is comprised of twenty members, appointed from the inshore fishery, the

April 4, 1975 Tape No, 1041 NM - 2 offshore fishery, plant owners and operators, union officials and representatives of the department, so that is what the $5,000 is for. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I do not know if I understood the minister cort:e.:tly or not when he said that the report that is being done by this research council or whatever it is from New Brunswick, I think it was the former administration that brought these people in here in the beginning. The report has not yet been received but yet there is nothing in this year's estimates, Sir, to pay these people any money.

Does that mean that the minister or the government have paid these people in advance.before they have gotten the report1 When will they get·the report? When they do get it will it be tabled in the House? Is this what I understand from the minister? MR, CROSBIE: Mr, Chairman, the position on this study, and a tremendous amount of work has been done on this, that we have received the results of this study.

The results of the study have been given to our own group here in the government, comprising of officials from Industrial Development, officials from Finance, officials from the Department of Fisheries who have gone over the report to see what queries or what things they think are not covered or what further questions there are.

The offic:I als in the Department of Fisheries~ for example,have drawn up a proposed trawler fishing plan and other work is being done like that, so that the basic work of this group has been done, except to answer questions or - Now after that process is over they may want to just polish up the report and type it in the final form, but their work is essentially over except for that so they have been paid what they need to be paid, Now if there is any further payment needed for them, then wr. will get it out of one of the votes here or we will get it from Industrial Development in some vote they have got for studies.

But they are basically paid. Any further payment that would be due them would be very minor. Perhaps several thousand dollars or $3,000 or $4,000, depending on what work they are asked to do once

April 4, 1975 Tape No. 1041 NM - 3 this process is finished . '1R. ~ ARY: 11111 the final report be tabled in the House? 'IR. CROSBIE: 1 see no reason vby the final report could not be made public . I caMot say absolutely it will,but as far as I am aware now l can see no reason why it should n.ot be made public . '1:R.. NEARY: Okay . We vill wait for it . On motion (04) carried . MR. CHAI~'IAN: Shall (03-01) carry? MR . CROSBIE: I would like to speak a bit on thi s. MR. NEARY: Well~l e t us just have an explanation on this . It is quite a hefty vote . MR.

CROSBIE: Yes, and I want to show some of the thin gs that are being done by the Department of fisheries , Fisheries Developmen t. Now this vote here is $1,218,000 and some of the thin gs that are ioing on, some were started last year and they are ~oing on this year, under Marine Cultu re, scallo p farming and mussel farmi ng . We are expecting t o spend $92 ,000 on further research on scallop farming. 3144

April 4, 1975. Tape 1042 RH - 1 This will start again in early May, but last year the programme consisted of assessing areas which might have potential for scallop farming. Experiments were conducted in r,arden Cove, Placentia Bay, St. Joseph's, St. Mary's Bay, Fox Island River, Port au Port Bay, Holyrood, Conception Bay, Cox's Cove, Bay of Islands. However, only the experiment at Garden Cove has proved suitable. In other words, it appears that Garden Cove is suitable for a scallop farming operation.

There may be other areas which are capable for scallop farming and will eventually be developed, but Garden Cove appears to be the place. MR. BARRY: Garden Cove, Placentia West, Placentia Bay. MR. CROSBIE: Right. That is another project the honourable gentleman should tell his constituents about. Ile probably did not - MR. BARRY: The honourable minister tells - MR. CROSBIE: Well, that is why we are going to have this new public relations programme. We want to let people know what it is all about. MR. NEARY: Including the member for the district. MR.

CROSBIE: Now, the second phase of operating scallop farms on a semi-commercial basis employed a m.Dnber of fishermen. There were three fishermen from Placentia Bay that were hired last year to learn some of the procedures necessary in scallop farming. This kind of thing goes on and nobody knows about it. Three fishermen were employed at this. I hope the member will make notes now. We also tried the Little Bay area of Mortier Bay. We tried to establish scallop farming there. Here a total of ten spat collecting facilities were set for an anticipated 200,000 pieces of scallop to be collected.

As this area is not affected by heavy ice, these facilities were left floating until this spring. Results of the programme to date have been very encouraging and it is expected that in a few years Ne~rfoundland cultivated scallops will be on the market. So, this is just one of the quiet things that is going on. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: And the Federal Government contributes to the programme too. I think it is a fifty-fifty basis. MR. NEARY: Scallops were on the market this year over at the Fishermen's 314ti

April 4, 1975, Tape 1042 RH - 2 Wharf. MR. CROSBIE: Right. Now, this year, Mr. Chairman, for $92,000 we are going to continue at Garden Cove and Little Bay and possible we are going to include North Harbour and Mortier Bay, The three fishermen who worked on the programme last year will be working again at Garden Cove and at North Harbour,depending on the results. Now, we have to check at Little Bay and see what the results are, but if the results were good, there would be fishermen hired in the Little Bay area to learn the technique and work on the programme.

That is if these spat thingamajiggers work out properly. We contacted the Marine Sciences Research Laboratory at Memorial to investigate scallop biologies related to farming and some of the money would be used to pay the laboratory at Memorial. It is anticipated that after 1975 the programme will be put in a position of being a viable enterprise within four years. In other words, it is hoped that Garden Cove and Little Bay, that this will be viable scallop farming area in four years. Now, another thing that is going on under this vote is marine culture mussel farming.

We did not get started last year on our mussel farming plans, but this year we have gone into the department in Nova Scotia who are experts in this area. They have got similar water conditions and temperatures. In early June, work is going to start in establishing raft mussel culture in the parts of Notre Dame Bay, Trinity Bay and Placentia Bay where conditions are suitable. Technical advice will be sought in Nova Scotia and other countries. So, that is another project under this heading. Then, Mr. Chairman, also under this vote is $70,000 to support the barge Labrador No. 1 MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR.

CROSBIE: Another pile of junk we left behind, I suppose. No, no, This is a whole new programme, this one. Oh, I see. She is afloat, is she? This programme started last year. We have purchased the barge from Nickerson and it was outfitted at Marystown Shipyard. 3l4ti

April 4, 1975. Tape 1042 RH - 3 It has fish processing facilities and board and living accommodation f or personnel . Originally she was named the Gorman No. XX, but we have renamed her the Labrador No. I . The barge is 120 f eet in length, forty-two feet in width . AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: The Minister of Tourism can go on the Labrador No. 1 if I am allowed to go on the Norma and Gladys. I mean, what is fair for one is fair for the othe.r and he can spend the summer in Labrador while I go to Japan . She is forty-two feet in width, nine feet deep . MR.

NEARY: Where is the suit you brought back from China? MR. CROSBIE: Has a gross t.onage of 791 tons . She was t owed f rom Marystown to Smokey Inlet Labrador last July, j ust before the late summer-fall fishery and she wintered in Cartwright. She was operated for two months by the Canadian Saltfish Corporation to collect some salt fish and to provide services to any fishermen who nee<i them. There is a crew of twelve 31.4'/

April 4, 1975 Tape 1043 (morning) men manning the barge. Approximately fifteen longliners availed of the service last year though only two boats sold their fish to IB-1 the barge which was a bit of a disappointment. We hope there will be more this year. There were 400 quintals of codfish received, processed and salted on board while 2,000 quintals were taken from fishermen who cured their own catch. In early October she was towed to Cartwright for the winter. We feel that it has got great promise. When the fishermen know that the facility is available, there will be far more use of it this year.

Now, this year she is going to be positioned for Summer operations as soon as ice permits which will be a lot earlier this year 1we believe. She will operate along the same lines as last year but for the longer period. So, the $70,000 that is under this vote is partly to make another installment on the barge and for operating purposes. The Canadian Saltfish Corporation are going to operate - MR. NEARY: She ought to he told to operate on her own steam. MR. CROSBIE: The Canadian Saltfish Corporation are going to operate the barge and we are underwriting their costs. We expect it will cost $30,000. MR.

NEARY: They are not charging us, are they? MR. CROSBIE: Huh! MR. NEARY: There is no charge from them, the Canadian Saltfish Corporation? MR. CROSBIE: Well, we just guarantee them against any loss, but they are operating the barge and we guarantee them against any loss. So, part of the money under the vote is for that purpose. I mean, I have a whole list of things. It is going to take me most of the day just to cover this vote, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: Could you table the list? "MR. CROSBIE: Then we have an amount of $100,000 here for shell fish exploration. MR. NEARY: In Conception Bay or Placentia Bay? MR.

CROSBIE: These are studies in connection with the question, are there shri1DP available in commercial quantities in the offshore 3148

April 4, 1975 Tape 1043 (morning) I'B-2 coastal waters around Newfoundland. Last year, after consulting with the fisheries biological station, there was a programme which involved chartering two boats to carry out surveys in the Funk Island, r.rand Banks and the Ramea-Rencontre area. That study we are hoping to carry on this year. It is to see whether there is a potential for shrimp in offshore waters. Now, there is a large amount there, $200,000, which we hope to spend on inshore fishing gear demonstration and development. What is being looked at is the electra automatic fishing reel demonstrations.

For example, last year in the Fogo Island area, the longliner 'MPJ was equipped with five automatic fishing reels and chartered for thirty days. In Conception Bay the longliner Ocean Surf operated from Port de Graveequipped with six automatic reels for thirty days. In Burgeo the lonliner Barbara B wasequipped with four of them and chartered for thirty days. In the Petty Harbour Area we have a fiberglas boat of our own. I did not realize that row. Imagine. MR. NEARY: That a luxury liner or a - MR. CROSBIE: Equipped with four automatic fishing reels.

The purpose of this is to see are these reels really worth-while and to demonstrate them and see what their potential is for smaller boats. This year we hope to carry on that programme. Then there is the Scottish ring net demonstration. The technique of Scottish ring netting first introduced in 1972 was demonstrated in three new areas last year. There were two longliners engaged for thirty day charters at Mary's Harbour and Labrador and two longliners engaged in Englee and the White Bay area and two at Twillingate and the Notre Dame Bay area.

They were allequinpedwith ring nets, fifteen fathoms deep by ninety-five fathoms long. The purpose is to demonstrate to the fishermen the Scottish ring net because this is the device under which you can catch herring and in which our inshore fishermen should pursue the herring fishery, We are going to continue that this year, these ring net demonstrations and we are going to try to mechanize the operation by using drum winches. this stuff went on. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. Now, I never knew any of 3149

April 4, 1975 Tape 1043 (morning) IB-3 MR. CROSBIE: It was great, was it. Well then , I do not want to bore honourable members, but we are also carrying out deJ110nstrations of a split drum winch ring net seining. Last year we chartered a fifty-eight foot longliner to carry out split drum winch ring net seining in Trinity and Conception Bays. With this equipment you eliminate manually hauling hack the net. You reduce the manpower requirements from eight to four men on a vessel . You reduce the vessel requiremen t s to one longliner using a small tow-off boat. You increase potential landings and earnings .

We are going to keep on with that expedmen t this year and we are going t o try a new type of sein e which the industrial development branch of the federal departmen t has developed. So, that will continue this year. Then there is money being spent on the Must ad Automatic Longline System . We installed tha t last year on the vessel M V Mac Marin er 11 in Port - aux- Basques in May. She had technical problems, but since Octob er when 3150

April 4, 1975 Tape no. 1044 Page 1 - mw we put additional equipment on the vessel, she has been operating fairly successfully. So this is the automatic longlining system to save having to bait all the hooks manually. Now it is still experimental, but it is going to carry on this year. And in the same way we are spending money trying out the Marco Ti-liner 1ongline System. We installed that on the longliner Baccalieu Run in Bay de Verde last May but because of ice conditions and scarcity of fish the project did not work out then.

We tried it again in September with more success, and we are going to try it again in 1975. Now if that works, if we find the Marco Ti-liner Longline System of baiting trawls and so on works, it would be a considerable step forward in the trawl fishery of the Province. It is amazing what has been done. Packs Harbour- we had a project last year training the fishermen of Packs Harbour in the technique of near offshore gill netting for groundfish which we carried out with A. Roberts Fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: No, nobody knows. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR.

CROSBIE: And the Department of Fisheries of Newfoundland, I suppose, does nothing and, you know, all this is going on. It is fantastic. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: Right. We operated the motor vessel Strait Shore last year on the Northeast Coast carrying out surveys on Icelandic and giant scallops. The surveys went on at White Bay and Bonavista Bay using three Digby dredgesand a Japanese dredge. The survey revealed · that there were very few giant scallops in these areas with a vew beds of Icelandic scallops sufficient to support only a very limited comnercial fishery.

Now this year we are going to use the same vessel and continue to survey for scallops. We are going to 31.51

April 4, 1975 Tape no. 1044 Page 2 - mw carry out surveys in Placentia Bay this year for scallops and Port au Port Bay. The Member for Port au Port will be glad to hear that. So all these things are going on. The vessel is the M.B. Strait Shore . AN HON. MEMBER: What about St. Mary's Bay? MR. NEARY: Is there anyway of finding out - MR. CROSBIE: St. Mary's Bay, we will come to that. Then we spent $65,000 last year.

We had the Marine Sciences Research Lab at Memorial work on a federal­ provincial grant, a project on shell fish and seaweed in seveEal bays and inlets in Labrador South, and we want them to continue with this in Labrador South, only they are going to go further north along the coast this year. MR. NEARY: Is it true they are working on a project down there to see if there is any V.D. in the codfish? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: That is the Department of Health, MR. NEARY: That is a legitimate question, Mr. Chairman. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, you will have to put it on the record.

You know, there is no end to these things. MR, NEA.RY: MR. CROSBIE: Down at the Marine Sciences Laboratory. Last year, Mr. Chairman, our four main areas of study were: St. Lewis Bay, Alexis Bay, St. Michael's Bay and Sandwich Bay. We had the sixty-five foot vessel Donna McKenzie and her three-man crew chartered and the three-man team comprised of a field supervisor and four scuba divers from Memorial and an observer from our department. Then last year we did a shelter deck experiment.

I think this is all - there is so much - you know, you would think this was $100 million, Some of this may be owed to fishing vessel experimentation. Last year we equipped a side trawler with a shelter deck over the working area, and this was done, Mr. Chairman, on the Penny Luck 11. ') ., 5 '..J .) .i. L.

April 4, 1975 Tape no. 1044 Page 3 - mw This permits the Penny Luck 11 t o fish in rougher weather and gives the crew orotection on the working day . And the captain and the crew report that this was a vast improvement and this year we had to make a payment to finish paying for this shelter deck experiment. So there is an experiment to help the trawler fleet. And then last year we carried out a triple parallel experiment.

The Newfoundland Hawk, which is a stern bottom crawler, is now being equipped so that she can engage in three different kinds of fishing, first the bottom trawl, second the mid-water trawl and the stern seining. That is a vessel 01o111ed by Bonavista Cold Storage, the Newfoundland Hawk. The federal government and us are helping to pay for this refitting and this experiment ,and the trial s have not yet started because of the strike. But that vessel now, with this new equipment and so on, is going to go out this year, and we have got some funds here for that, to see how this works.

April 4, 1975 Tape No. 1045 NM - 1 MR. CROSBIE: Yes, I am only getting warmed up. I mean,this is amazing 1you know. List after list, it is just- take your breath away. MR. MURPHY: Getting ready for more important things this afternoon. MR. CROSBIE: Well they are having a press conference at 2:30 P.M. MR. MURPHY: Over in the Opposition Room, first time in the history of this Province that political meetings were permitted to be held in along - MR. CROSBIE: My God! We would not consider - MR. MURPHY: Poor Mr. Smallwood would turn in his grave. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Smallwood would turn in his farm.

The last couple of things on the list quote !ishermen's Technical Upgrading. Lastyear we spent $20,000 to introduce some of our fishermen to new fishing methods and fishing - Now1for exarnple,you see here is a thing underway now. Three local fishermen have gone to Scotland with Mr. Harold Murphy - I think they may be back again by now - from the Department of Fisheries, and Mr. Gerry Brothers who is a Technical Adviser with Environment Canada and they just visited Scotlant to observe inshore fishing methods that might,that might be used here in Newfoundland.

Now 1 did put out a release a couple of weeks ago saying they were going) but it got buried in the back pages somewhere.. That is the kind of thing, three inFhore fishermen from different areas of the Province had just had their way paid to Scotland with these two officials and gone around Scotland looking at methods of inshore fishing there, three fishermen.

You know,the honourable gentleman from Bell Island was yakking the other day about,you know,fishermen and why were the fishermen not on the committee, well)hereare three fishermen that just toured Scotland looking at how they do it in Scotland,and we are going to continue doing that this year. Then there was product development and process technology. Last year, oh yes I mentioned this to the House, we got EPA and CP 3,; 5. J. ,q_

April 4, 197 5 Tape No. 1045 NM - 2 hotels in Montreal to introduce Newfoundland fish on jn-flight meals on EPA. For two weeks in October,Newfoundland grey sole and ocean crab were served to passengers on EPA, and reaction was very favourable. Now this year we are wanting to introduce various kinds of fish processing machines in the fish plants around the Province on an experimental basis so they can try and produce new products and increase the yield.

That prograunne is going to continue this year and we are going to try to conduct an experiment with Air Canada this year so that they will use the Newfoundland fish products on Air Canada and try it on Air Canada this year. This is how we have got to increase the, you knowl if fish is every going to get anywhere in the long term future, Mr. Chairman, we have to encourage the consumer to want to eat fish and that is the whole secret. If they ate half as much fish in the United States as they eat in Japan,or half as much in Canada, we would not have any under capacity.

Everything that we could produce would be snapped up and gone without any difficulty. But people have a prejudice for some reason against fish. Finally under this heading we spent morey last year on the Scandanavian multi-purpose vessel. It is too bad the Member £or Bonavista North is not here. It does not matter to us. We do not discriminate against district. Most of this money is being spent in districts represented by Liberal members. But we play the game fair and square. MR. NEARY: The scallops and the fish,are they Liberal or what? Do they go to the Liberal districts?

What about the scallops and the mussels, they all went to the Liberals. MR. CROSBIE: No, some of them were sort of going towards the PC districts. We got the scallops and the mussel vote. Last year the Beothic Fisheries of Valleyfield, we assisted them in purchasing an eighty-foot seeel, multi-purpose Norwegian fishing vessel, and the purpose of that is that they want to try it on the near offshore waters alonP, the Northeast Coast. Now to help them buy it, our department or my department agreed to charter that vessel and to carry 315~

April 4, 1975 Tape No. 1045 NM - 3 out a vessel performance study so that the information gained would be available to all the local companies. Now that is going to cost us $150,000 over three years. The vessel operates out of Valleyfield and the vessel is called the Beothic Adventure. MR. NEARY: Who owns it? MR. CROSBIE: It is owned by Beothic Fisheries but made possible by our chartering it for three years so that he will get $150,000 from the government. Now I am not sure of the results. I do not think that that vessel did too well last year.

Of course there were difficult conditions last year and we are hoping that it will prove to be a lot more success this year. MR. NEARY: Are public tenders called for all these charters? MR. CROSBIE: No, public tenders are not called. How can you assist someone on an experimental basis if you call public tenders. The Beothic Fisheries gets an idea they want to try an eighty-foot Norwegian vessel. MR. NEARY: Oh I see. MR. CROSBIE: They have not got the wherewithal and they come into us and they say, look,wlll you assist us. MP •• NEARY: I see.

I understood the minister's department was doing this, not Reothic Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: No, no. Beothic - MR. NEARY: Okay, all rip,ht. I have got it straight. MR. CROSBIE: Right. But they are able to do it because we have agreed to charter for three years, to give them the money to help pay for the vessel and operate the vessel. Otherwise they could not do it. MR. NEARY: That is your way of giving them their $150,000. MR. CROSBIE: Right. MR. NEARY: That is right. A little bit of - AN HON. MEMBER: Assistance from Ottawa. MR. NEARY: 1hat is right. With the help of Ottawa. "IR.

CROSBIE: You know all of this is cost shared. All 3 ·1 5v .!i,. ~J

April 4, 1975 Tape 1046 (Morning) PK - 1 cost shared. Ottawa shares in this vote. MR. NEARY: Of course. Uncle Ottawa,our Liberal - MR. CROSBIE: But the projects are all our initiative, Ottawa does not dream them up. MR. NEARY: Well if they are , then why do you not call public tenders if they are at your initiative? MR. CROSBIE: What has public tenders got to do with it? Am I going to call public tenders and ask the mussels to bid whether they want somebody to come along and pluck them or not? MR. NEARY: We do not want any cushy little agreements with, you know, your buddies and friends chartering these boats.

MR. CROSBIE: Well there is not any cushy arrangements. I do not even know these chaps, you know. And I do not know their politics and that does not matter. MR. NEARY: The question - MR. CROSBIE: And I am giving you all the infotmation. You know, there is no cushy, cushy. MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CROSBIE: But we do not know that. It was all done before I got there . Oh I see! All cut and dried! Inaudible. All this was going on1 by the way,when the Hon. Hember for Gander was minister, and 1 you know,got abused and attacked in this Mouse.

This is all - I am talking about last year's programme. This was all the stuff that was done by the Hon. Member for Gander while he was minister and the department under him. AN HON. ~IBMBER : Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I am just making sure there were no sweetheart agreements, that is all I am trying to do. MR. CROSBIE: keep us honest. MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: NR . NEARY: I know that you are wanting, You are struggling to Sure. Well it does not take much effort. That is a part of my job. 31.5'/

April 4, 1975 Tape 1046 (Morning) PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: Our trouble is we are too honest, you know. This is our trouble. And therefore the honourable gentleman cannot work up a sweat keeping us honest. And our difficulty is the other way around. Now I will just describe some of the money that is being spent under fishing vessel experimentation while I am at it. And just briefly, last year we spent a considerable amount of money on the Hannon I and II . They are converted for longlining now. We ---- have installed on them mechanized longlining equipment, so that they can now fish year around in offshore waters.

And the expenditures cover hiring the crew , purchasing automated longline equipment and onerating the vessels. One of which,as tse House knows 1 is down in Marystown being repaired now, and the other has been out fishing. MR. NEARY: She is down here at the Waterfront,I saw here the other day. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, she may be in here now. Now we are contemplating,or we are negotiating an arrangement now whereby a certain group of plants on the Northeast Coast may operate those vessels to catch fish and to fish into those plants. That is being discussed with them now.

And if that works out it will be helpful to all concerned. Now some of the money here~then,is to operate these vessels again to see whether this is the way to go in the fishery here in Newfoundland, and part of the money is needed for the operation of the three sixty-five foot vessels down at Harmon. Well you know that is what that money is for there,the fishing vessel experimentation. It is for those two projects. MR. NEARY: Carried. MR. CROSBIE: 1405-07, no I have not come to that yet. So thatJI hope 1explains those two votes. HR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Shall 03-01 carry? On motion 03-01 carried. AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible. 315H

April 4, 1975 Tape 1046 (Morning) PK - 3 MR. NEARY: It is carried. It is too late. It is too late, Sir, rour Honour said carried. MR. BARRY: No, no, no, It is too fast there, Now be reasonable. 1'1R. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): You are recognized. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, I am particularly pleased to see - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: What is that? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chain.um, I was particularly pleased to see the items with respect aquaculture in Placent.la Bay that the honourable minister mentioned.

One of the first contacts I had with any department of government on being elected to the great and glorious district of Placentia West in 1972 was to suggest to the Department of Fisheries, to the minister at that time,that he could very usefully look into the possibility of aquaculture in the area of Placentia Bay, and specifically Paradise Sound, where you have an indraught of fourteen or fifteen miles only approximately half a mile wide.

And it was suggested to me by fishermen in the area that it would be the ideal site for extensive attuaculture if the environmental conditions were appropriate, because you could put a net across Paradise Sound quite easily, and then you would have protection for the young fish, suggested possibly young lobsters, scallops, and so on. You could contain these within a specific area. You could keep out,presumably,various predatories that might interfere with the experiment. And I brought this to the minister's attention and he brought it to the attention of his officials.

Now the first indication I received with respect to growing young lobsters, getting lobster farming operations going were not too encouraging 3i5~

April 4, 1975 Tape 1047 (morning) IB-1 because there appeared to be some problems with respect to the temperature of the water, and Lester McCarthy was one of the gentlemen from the district who suggested this idea to me. But, I did ask the department to get into this area of aquaculture in Placentia Bay because it had heen brought to my attention. It is an example, Mr. Chairman, of ideas coming from the grass roots, coming straight from the fishermen, ideas that they had developed over the years. They brought it to my attention.

I am happy to see the Department of Fisheries, the officials, acting on the suggestions and getting to the stage now where we see some very substantial progress particularly in the area of scallop farming. I am happy to see that the experiment in Garden Cove appears to have been successful. We will keep our fingers crossed about the Little nay one. I guess that will be this slDDiller you should know the results of the Little Bay experiment. This is an example, Mr.

Chairman, of a very positive and constructive approach by the Department of Fisheries 1 one that I am going to be very happy to bring to the attention of my constituents and I am sure that it will be received very favorably by the fishermen of Placentia Bay. On motion 03-01 and r2 carried. MR. CllAIRMAl'l (DUNPHY): Shall 1405-05 carried1 MR. NEARY: What is this? MR. CROSBIE: This, Mr. Chainnan, is an amotmt that we may have to pay the Canadian Saltfish Corporation in connection with our new herring programme in St. Barbe North and Labrador South.

Now, the arrangement with the Canadian Saltfish Corporation is that they are going to engage themselves in the herring processing business in Northern Newfoundland and Labrador South. They will not have a monopoly. Anyone else who wants to buy herring and so on can buy herrin~ there, But they are going to go up there, and, as was also agreed - they have done this now in Quebec for three years and the Quebec Government agreed as we have to guarantee them against losses up to $50,000. It may be that during the first year or two they will have 3ltiU

April 4, 1975 Tape 1047 (morning) IB-2 losses. Their experience in Quebec is that they lost money the first year but they made money after that. The reason for their being needed to participate in that fishery in that area is because there has been tremendous problems in the last several years with the quality of the fish packed or cured by the fishermen up there. Thousands of barrels of herring had spoiled. A lot are shipped to market and then they refuse to pay for it or there are complaints.

A major problem in that area, because of the difficulty of packing the fish in the Summer - apparently the head off cure during these months, from June 15 to September, it is almost impossible to achieve without the herring spoiling. Perhaps there are other cures you can do but not that particular one. The herring fishery has declined up there. Last year there was a lot of trouble again with spoilage. The Canadian Saltfish Corporation has got barrels on order. They are going to employ one or two experts in the field of herring packing and processing. In Quebec they have a Norwegian expert.

They are going to find a similar type man now for to do the same thing in Northern Labrador and Labrador South who will go around explaining how the products should be treated or processed by the fishermen. Hopefully they will be able to use the community stages up in the area to process the herring and pack the herring themselves rather than have the fishermen pack it. If the fisherman wants to pack it himself and sell it packed, fine, or hopefully they will be able to sell it in the fresh state to the Corporation who will then process it and pack it.

Now, for this at all to be a success other facilities are needed in the area which I have explainerl to the House before such as a cool storage area which is recommended for St. Barbe. It should be large enough to hold 20,000 barrels and so on. Now, private enterprise is not stopped from going in there. Anybody else who wants to go in and buy herring and so on will be able to do it. The Saltfish Corporation will establish their price at the start of the season. If they do make money on the operation they will make a supplementarv payment as they do in the saltfish at the end of the year. 3161

April 4, 1975 Tape 1048 (morning) So, it has worked well in Quebec and we are hoping it will work well, and this money may or may not have to be paid to them, hut we have agreed up to $50,000. It is likely that in this first year they will require that. MR. F. ROWE: The herring fishermen of St. Barbe and Labrador and St. Barbe South have been plagued with many problems over the past few years. I am sure that all the fishermen in St. Barbe North IB-1 in particular welcome the involvement of the Canadian Saltfish Corporation 1n the buying and purchasing and the assistance in processing the herring on the coast.

This is what the fishermen have been asking for over the past few years. It has finally been realized, and I sincerely hope that it will be a success. As the minister pointed out, simply because the Canadian Saltfish Corporation is moving in does not mean that private enterprise is being pushed out. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: :,1'R. F. ROWl': Yes. Right. There have been a few bankruptcies and so forth as a result of the spoilage of the herring. But this is a step in the right direction, Mr. Chairman, and I hope we see it carrying on in the years to come. On motion, 1405-05 and Of carried. MR .

CUAIRldAN (nTINPltY) : Shall 08 carry? AN HONOURABLE ""ff:MilER: Inaudible. MR . CRO~BIF.: Well, last year the funds under that vote were used to purchase fishing gear required for the three sixty-five foot multi­ purpose boats . I wish I had their names here. They have quite ingenious names, named after kinds of fish that are not generally fished in Newfoundland, hut I cannot remember ~heir names. It is not the lump fish roe hut, you know, a similar kind of thing. Anyway that is what that money was required for so that they can fish with bottom trawls, mid water trawls and seines. do not need any money for that.

On motion 08 carried. This year we MR. CROSBIE: J think the honourable gentleman wanted to know about 08, was it, 1405-08, product and market development. Is that the one? 316L

Apr il 4 , 1.975 Tape 1048 (morning) IB-2 AN HONOURABLE MDIBER: Inaudible, MR, CROSBIE: Yes, well what this is is we have a new Product and Market Development Divi.sion of the depattment. $40,000 of this amount r .epresents our co1J1D1itment to the North Atlantic Sea Food Promotion Prog .ramme for next year. Our total commitments are $120,000. AN HONOURABLE MEMBEl.l: Inaudible. ~- CROSBIE: Yes. The Government of Canada is involved in it, the governments of the four Atlantic Provinces and the trade, and the contribution is on a basi,s of a twentieth of a cent a pound.

We are contributin ·g on a bas:Ls of a twent;ieth of a cent a pound for the fish caught in Newfoundland and the trade is contributing a twentieth of a cent a pound, and the Government of Canada a tenth of a cent per poimd on the overall of the whole East Coast. Th.is money is going to be used over three years for a promotion in North America for the conswnption of sea food. Now, the test of the amount :Ln the estimates here is going to be used on programmes relating to new product development and ma:rket research.

For example, roe utilization and development of products from such things as mackerel, caplin and the like, and see how the market will accept them. MR. CRA.IRMAN (DUNPHY) : It now being one o'clock, I leave the Chair until three this afternoon. 3i 63

April 4, 1975. The House resumed at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Chairman in the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Tape 1049 RH - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, before the Committee gets started again, could Your Honour indicate to the House how much time we have left on the estimates, Sir? MR. CHAIRMAN: Forty-one hours and seven minutes left. On motion, 1406-01, 02-01, 02 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 01-01 carry? The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: 1506-03-01, Fishing Gear Subsidy. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. MR. ROWE: I take it, Mr.

Chairman, that this refers to the replace- ment payments for replacement of lobster gear, Is that correct, lobster pots? If I could get the minister's attention, Mr. Chairman, 1406-03, Incentives and Assistance, Fishing Gear Subsidy, is that for the lobster pots? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, this is the regular Fishing Gear Subsidy Programme which was expanded May 18, 1974 under my predecessor, the Member for Gander. The Member for Gander was a spendthrift and he improved the policy of subsidizing inshore fishing gear and that is what this is for.

The programme, it provides $25.00 in new ground fish gill nets, $15.00 in each package of six trawl lines, ~2.00 per pound and new webbing required to repair and construct other types of nets,seines, traps and trawls of legal size with the exception of salmon netting. Last year we paid under this programme $525,000 and that covered 17,700 ground fish gill nets, 500 herring and mackerel nets, 7,000 trawl lines and 43,000 pounds of netting. Now, the payments under that programme would have been doubled this, at least, except for the special Fishing Gear Replacement Programme.

So, this is the amount that we think is going to be necessary for the regular subsidy programme. It trould have been more last year except for the fact that

April 4, 1975 . Tape 1049 Rll - 2 Ye were paying one hundred per cent under this special Gear Re­ placement Programme . So, it is the regular fishing gear subsidy. On motion, 03-01 carried. MR. CllAIID-IAN : Shall 03-02 carry? MR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, 02, I am trying to trace down where the lobster pots come in, Mr. Chairman. ls this the vote? MR. CROSBIE: Yes, this is the - MR. ROWE: Okay. I have a question if the mini s ter - MR. CROSBIE: Yes, this Yould be the vote here under that. MR. ROWE: Right . Well, the question, Hr.

Chairman, is this, that the minister, 1 think 1indicated this morning that he hopes to have an inspector visit the fishermen 'before the beginning of the lobster season and that no inspections will be carried out after that period depending on what part of the Province)and consequently any fishermen who have not had their lobster pots inspected for final payment will n.ot receive final payment af.ter the opening of the lobste r fishing season, .if I understo od that correctly? 316~

April 4, 1975 Tape no. 1050 Page 1 - mw Well there is one problem that has developed, Mr. Chairman, and the officials of the Department of Fisheries have been helpful and co-operative in this regard, but I think we will come across a problem of where the fishermen are taking their lobster pots over the ice, out to the islands,you know, in various parts of the Province so that they can set them, you know, when the lobster season starts. And I can see the possibility where the inspectors will in fact not be able to complete their mission, get out and inspect all of these lobster pots.

I would like the minister to consult ~1th his officials, presumably that is Mr. Alf Pyke in this regard, and possibly put a rush on with extra men or something so that the inspection is completed before that opening date. Because at the present time, say, on the St. Barbe coastline, all lobster pots are lined up along the main highway.

They are quite easily inspected at the present time~but the fishermen are in the process of bringing their lobster pots over the ice out to the islands, and when we get a break-up up there in two or three or four or five weeks time, it is quite conceivable that nobody will be able to get out to these islands, including the inspectors,and the fishermen then will not get their final detainment on the lobster pots, Sir. MR.

CROSBIE: If we find that there is any problem with these dates, in the case of the area the gentleman mentions it would be May S, if we find that there is any problem or it is a major problem, then we will have to extend the date. But we are hoping to be able to do it all by April 20 or May 5. If it turns out to be impossible to do that, we will have to extend the date so that is looked after. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to say that this is the Fishing Gear Replacement Programme, and it is likely that this programme, as far as we can tell now, for replacing gear last year along that

section of the coast, from St. Shott's to the top of the Northern Peninsula, down to the Port au Choix area and 316b

April 4, 1975 Tape no. 1050 Page 2 - mw Labrador South, is going to cost $6,250,000. And the federal government is sharing in the programme based on the E.M.O. National Disaster formula. The first dollar per capita of the population of the Province they do not share in at all,so the first $540,000 is provincial, but above that from $1 to $3 is fifty per cent federal and fifty per cent provincial. Then when you get to the area of $3 or $5 per capita, it is seventy-five per cent federal and twenty-five per cent provincial.

In excess of $5per capita, which would be about $2 million and $600,000 or $700,000, then it becomes ninety per cent federal and ten per cent provincial. It looks to us now that the total cost will probably be $6,250,000 of which the federal contribution would be $4,545,000 if it goes - MR. NEARY: It is a great Liberal government up there in Ottawa. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, and there is a great provincial government here in Newfoundland that initiated this and got the federal government to agree to it.

About 5,500 fishermen have been supplied with replacement material and the amount replaced is the following: 16,500 groundfish gill nets at a cost of $2,040,000; 5,200 salmon gill nets and the cost of that was $1,040,000; 750 herring gill nets, $45,000; 100 lump and seal gill nets, $10,000; 900 crab pots, $35,000; about 160,000 lobster pots, $1,600,000 - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: Well, it is a fair percentage of what we had, yes. And 400 cod traps, about $1,480,000, so the total likely cost of that programme will be $6,250,000.

We do not think that there should be any need for such a programme again .this year. 3161

April 4, 1975 Tape No. 1051 NM - 1 The amount of $50,000 that we are showing this year is to cover any bills that mi11:ht come in after April 30. Up until April 30 the money that is spent can be charged to last year's vote and we are expecting that $50,000 will cover the provincial share of any claims that might be paid out after April 30. So the whole programme was a massive programme. Approximately 450 applications for assistance were rejected because the claimants either reported their losses after September 10, 1974 or they were outside of the boundaries of the ice disaster area.

So 5,500 fishermen were supplied with replacement materials and gear under this programme and 450 applications were rejected because they were too late or they were from areas of the Province that were not included in the programme. So it was quite a massive programme of gear replacement and I have just given the figures,of course,and the amount of gear involved. MR. NEARY: Mr, Chairman, I wonder if the minister could tell us, Sir, what happened to this great Tory promise after this honourable crowd formed the government. They were going to bring in a new gear insurance programme. AN HON. MEMBER: Cost shared. MR.

NEARY: Cost shared by the Government of Canada. We have not heard a peep, Sir, out of any of the ministers,and we have had five Ministers of Fisheries now, or out of the administration, about this great gear insurance programme that was promised i