VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED DEBATE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, JULY 16, 1979 NO. 2

July 16, 1979 The neuse met at 3 : 00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair . MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Tape No. 23 NM - l order, please! It is my pleasure, on behalf of all members of the House to welcome two •Tisitors who are seated in the Speaker's Gallery, Jean-Maxima Leveque and Jacques R. Mignon, the President and Director of the Credit Commercial de France. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECD\L. COMMI'l"l'EES: MR. SPEAKER: The non. member for Menihek. MR. P. lnU.SH: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the select committee appointed to draft a reply to the Speech from the Throne to the Lieutenant-Governor, I present the report of the select committee as follows: " To !iis Bonour the Lieutenant-Governor, May it please Your Honour, we, the Co1111110ns of Newfoundland in Legislative Session assembled, beg to thank Your HOnour for the gracious speech wnich Your Honour has addressed to this .House. (Signed) Peter Walsh, Randy Collins, and Trevor Bennett. • NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER : The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER : Mr .

Speaker, I give notice that I shall on tomorrow ask leave to intro<iuce the following bill, "An Act To Amend The Unified Family Court Act . " MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICI<EY: The non. Minister of Social Services. Mr. Speaker , I give notice that ! will on tomorrow introduce a bill, "An Act To Alllend The Adoption Of Children Act, 1972." MR. SPEAl<E..''t: MR. FLIGHT: ORAL QUESTIONS,_ The hen. member for Windsor-Buchans. Mr. Speaker , this question to the Minister of t.ands and E'orests, and I would be grateful for a short

preamble. As the minister knows , and the Bouse knows, this Province 62

J d y 16. B 79 Tape No. 24 NM - 2 MR. E'LIGHT: has gone through a. -,ery agoni:z:inq period re the forest fi:Ce situations. We saw a.s hiqh a.s fiftei!ln fires qoinq at one time; one or two major fires that had the effect of threa.teninq ecollOI!Iies of the areas in tile Province and even threa~eninq the safety of cOIIIIIIUni:ties. The feeling <As rampant in the areas lllOst a,ffectad, Mr. Minister, that the Province - we were sure that we had .the ~ilitY to cope. !low thili; side, and I am sure aJ..l of ~ewfaundlaad, have got a great ciaal of a.dmira:tion for the wa.y the fi.refiqhters, and all the people inVolVed in the forest fire fighting, -- 6:1

.:uly 16, 1979 Tape 24 !'K - 1 Mr. E'liqht: performed admirably and we apprecia~e their efforts. aut I •..auld then like to ask -che minister in view of what we have came throuqh,in view of the seriousness of t:b.e situation,is he confident t:b.at we were in control, that his department was coping to tha extent that the people of Newfoundland had a right to expect? Was the minister confident that the ~rovince was getting the kind of protection that we have a right to expect in that situation? MR. SPEAKER (SL~S) : The hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, to be in total control I guess would be in control of the weatbar conditions and that is something 'Ae do not have on this side of the s:ouse at this time. SOME S:ON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

MORGAN: However, bainq in control o: the staff of the department and doing the job they have been doing in fighting fires, some months aqo 1 the Rouse will recall, I said in the Assembly then we were in a potentially dangerous situation in the ~rovince because of the extreme low water tables in the Province and extreme dryness in the forest areas, and there was a potentially dangerous· forest fire situation And since that time,of course,unfortunately my words have come true there was a dangerous situation and in fact still is. Rowever,the firefighting crews I would say are the best crews anywhere in Canada.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: And our water bomber pilots in particular have been doing a tremendous jo.b under very sometimes hazardous and very demanding times, and I have to heap praise on these pilots and crew members in particular for the fine job ~~ey have done in that one fire alone which now has burnt more than 60,000 acres of forest area in the gener:t.l area of Gambc - ·:ilovertown. we are hoping that our residents using the forest areas will co-operate with us in .being extremely careful. 64

July 16, 1979 Tape 24 PK - 2 :1r. ~organ: We are counting on, and again without having control over, getting so~e further wet weather conditions like we had the past few days ,.,hicll helped substantial.ly to contrOl or contain somewhat the major forest fire we had which burnt over 60,000 acres. Mr. Speaker , in answerinq the question I would like to point out that it is difficult to control a large forest fire. I recall reading in an editorial recently in the local paper that we were doing nothing to contrOl a forest fire burning 011t of control.

That editorial,in my view,is irresponsible, because we presently have major forest fires b=ing out of contrOl in Alberta, in the Province of ontario, and once a fire spreads by means of heavy wind conditions, high velocity of wimis like we had in the recent fire caused by liqhtening, fire, for example, can spread as much as eight miles in four hours, and that happened. And to answer the hen. gentleman' s question I a~ convinced we do have control of the situation by means of our crews: however,we are countinq on the co-operation of the general populace of our ProVince. 65

July 16,1979 MR. FLIGHT: Speaker. MR. SP~: (Simms) MR. FLIGH'l': Tape No. 25 AH-1 A supplementary , Mr. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, I can understand the feelinq of ill-ease amonqst the qeneral public of this Province durinq the fires when an cf!lcial of t.'l.e Forest Oepartlnent made a statement that iJl one fire in particular•twe would probably have to let it burn to the sea. We have lost cantcl and we will have to let it burn itself out." I miqht remind the House that there were communities between that tire and the sea. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in 1961, I think the year that is comparable to this one, we had somethinc; of the same ltind of a situation, there was perceived in this Province a crisis. I was wonderinq, Mr. Speaker, if the minister considered callinq iJl the ·A%med Forces as was done in 1961? That is one alternative. What would haw happened if a major fire had broken out sa~~ewhere else? Did the minister consider the possibilities available to him other than spreadinq so thin 1 as obviously was spread,the capabilities that he has?

What other precautions was the minis-ear loo.kinq at and did he consider brinqinq in the lU:med Forces or takina any other measUres that would have solved and contained the fires and stcpped them from becominq the major fires that they were? Because one of those fires, the major one of all 1 burnt three days before it qat out of control. MR. SPE1o!!!; MR. MORGAN: The han. minister. Mr. Speaker, when the fire was burninq out of control, the senior staff and myself met almost hourly for that two or three day period.

We were in ~o~~~~t contract with the law inforcement aqend.es in the area, the RCMP, and we did have a continqenC'/ eme~ency plan in place. However, I would lilce to point out we never did lose control of the direction of the fire. The forest fire fiqhters usinq water ballbers were in . 66

July 16,1!:'79 Tape ~lo. 25 AH-2 ~tR.MORGAN: control of the direction. Th~y were able to l<:eep the fire directed away frcm Glovenown and Saunders cove in particular by means of keepinq the fire on the West side of the watersheds in the area. If we had lost control l:ly the fire spreadinq East of these watersheds,we would have possibly declared the situation emerqency and called for help from,possibly 1 the Armed Forees, possibly the Armed Forces or other sources of that nature.

But 1~e never did feel we had lost control of the direction, and t."\at was our main aim and objective at that time. ~. st'E.AX!!R: (Silrms) Buchans. Hon. member for Windsor- MR. rt.IGH'l': Mr. Speaker, ! would ask the minister 1 when most of the fire fiqhtinq equipment in the Province was concentrated on the fires b=:inq, the minor fires and the two major fires, was the fire fiqhtinq capability of Labrador ?roteeted in the event becauae there was SOIIIA!I talk that it was just as dry in Labrador as it was in Newfoundland?

Did we have adequate fire fiqhtinq facilities , capabilities, water bombers and that kind of thinq left in Labrador that would not have been taJten out of the Province to qet into Labrador in the event of a major fire there? MR. SPE.AX!!R: The hon. minister. MR. !o!O'!IGAN: Yes, i'lr. Spe&lter, that was a decision we had to make • 'Hhen we needed, we thouqht, extra water bolnbers, we had one stationed in r.abrador and the question 67

July !.6, U73 ::c - 1 was wiletller or not to relocate t..'l.at ~o~ater bomber from Labrador - it ~o~as stationed there - to the fire in. the •:iambo-Glovertown area. iiowever, because of the potential dan~r a.s well in. tile Labrador portion of tile Province we kept - and,in. fact,it is still there - a ·.:ater bomber, and assiqned to the bomber, I tnillk, are three tlel.icopters. So we <!o nave a potential fire fighting force in Labrador.

We did not remove that despite the fact it was tempting because of the fi.re possibly spreading to Gloveru~wn-saunders cove for a. while there last weak. aut it never was t:aken away and in fact they do not intend t:e take it away unless it is really an emergency. MR. LUSH; MR. 'SPE.AXER• (Simms) MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. 'Ole hon. the me:mber for Terra Nova.

I wish to ask a. coupla of supplementary questions to the same mini.ster regarding t..'l.is fi.re • I certainly do not '"ant to appear to be an alumist but it ..,as· and is a serious situation, particularly to the area of Gloveru~wn in. rirf district and it i:s certainly a sarious fi.re t..'l.at invclves something like in the area, I tll.ink.' the minis tar said, of sixty square lllilos, whicil is half the area of the Terra Nova National park, so qui ta a serious fire and tllere a.re SOI8 concerns baing raisi!Q by tlle public and I think they should be reassured tllat certAinly we do nave reasonable forest fire protection capabilities.

Along the same line, then were soma concerns expressed in the area tnat maybe the fire bombers in particular ware slow in getting to the area.. I think ::.wo or three people IIIIU1tioned that it t.cok about three hours frolll the time the fire was repo~d Wltil people got there. And the question to the llli:U.ster is, Wha.t generally is the ti.llle in getting everybody alerted? I am sure it varies with the distance al1d. this sort of thinq, but for Glovertown I think Gar.cier is the central point and maybe three hours was a. reasonable time and maybe it· was not.

I wonder if the lllinister could coiiiiiiUlt on that, the lenqth of time it takes f%'0111 the time you 9at notification, tile water bombers and this sort of thi.nq, to the time they 9et to a fire? ~IR. SPEAKE:lt: The hon. lllinistar. 68

:u.l y ·a, . 979 '!'ape •• 6 ::c - 2 Wel.l, ~ll:'. Speaker, til.e only ;-eason the~ would be a del.&r in (]attinq a water boalber fzom a statiQned location, .lllce, fOl: e1CIII!Ipl•, at G~, to tAa axac:t locAtion of a fi3 w~ be posai.bly -•thar .;»DQiticms Like foq or sometbiaq of that natiUB like - 11&4 last weelt in Giuldar. We c:oW.d not get t:a. water bolllbe~ off the .U.rst:r:i.ps.

We 11.;1.'" sta~ed at QaAder a ~ra:r:y station wit.b accoaiOdations for t.Da ·,...tar blomber pllots aAd ~ aAd they staY there at a trailer ~dation on the ~:rt itself, and within a Uttar of minutes of ql!U:tinq a call on a fil:e, the watar bolal:len will be in the air, p~:aviciinCJ, of cow:se, that weather conditioDS will. aJ,J.qw.

.Jo.~ly lo, 19i9 !;il) - 1 .·l.R. J. .·iORGrll-1: 'I'he ta= it takes to ge~ eo the tire again depenns on tne distance away from ~e location where the water bom.ilers are staticnac ~cause these boo~Qars .u:e vary slow CICVillg ai.r vellicles. They travel, I think, a :uaximum of :oeventy lll.iles pe.r llou.r, wllic:b. is slow compared to moat air vellicles and it Ili&Y taka a wllile but tAe::e is no way would it taka three hours to get from Gander to Glove.rtown unless there was weather conditions preven~ tne plana from getting off the qround. i.lti. b.a.lly. AN CON. 1-lEMBER: i·Ul. T.

LUSH: ;~ SPEAI<ER: (Simms) for Terra Nova. L-IR. T. LUSii: iiaa.r, hear. Final supplementary, Hr. speaker. Final suppl11111enta.ry, hen. mea~De.r lU1o$er concern, :-tr. speaker, aqain raised. by tne residents, .because I was there on three d.ifferent occasions and I know Uiat Uie lll.ilti.ste.z: was there a.s well, looking at the· situation, another concern was the mscnanica..l conditior:. oi the bombers. I do not know how maGy are employed. in that a.rea b11t for 1110st of t:b.e time t:b.e.z:a seems to be blo .u:o\UII:l.

There always seems · to :Ce one .l:lomQe.z: that was <iown mechanically 1 or two, which raises the question, the cond.ition of the bombers t:b.at we are using and ::e.z:tain.ly wib the kincls of fire ::ond.itions that we nave in ellis Prov~ce it is incumbent ~~t we have A-1 equipment,?a.rticularly in ta.rms of tne water bombers. So could the minister comment on the kind of equipment that we have? :-J.R. SPEAKER: :-~a. J. :10RGAN: i:iOn. ..U.ni.ste.r of i:.<~.nd.s and Fo.z:es ts. i1ell, i-lr. Speaker, at tile beqinniDq of t:b.e season the water bombers, we CJ.ake sure they are all in excellent con<iition.

Thi.s has been done through t::1e office o; "''l' colleague tne :ii.ni.ste.z: of Transportation and Colllllunications (io!r. C. arett) wno is responsible for Air Services Division. They carry out 4 tata..l refurl)ishinq and oYerhaul of tAese aircraft to a total of :>even. That is done prior to tne commencement of ~e potential fo.z:es;: fire season. But, i:loweve.z:, because of the demand on the 70

Ju.ly .1.;, 1979 Tal:'e No. 27 Stl - 2' ~·IR. J. HORGAN: equipment itself, I men~ionea aemana on !:he pi,lgts and. crews but also t:.ilere is a very heavy demand. on t:.ile :Cam.be.ra, l.anding in pollds, J?icldng up Wilter and dropping and la.oc1ing and. <ircppinq. They oftan make as h.igh as seventy-five to eighty drops per <iay, which is a. substantiill demand on equipment. And we did nave some J?roblems with raqarcis to the equipment. We lost a couple of ~tors, by t:le WilY.

For exaJZit)le, in a recent fire we what the pilots call 'blew t:.ile mo~ors• and we had l:o replace them. au~,hcwever,becGUse of our efficient milin~enance staff - and I will say we have a vary efficient maintenance s.taff on the maintenance of l:hese aircraft-working night and day were able to get the planes i:lac:k in tne air in a matter of nou.rs. MR. SPEAKER: (S.i:mul fi.Dal supplementary. ;-m. 'l'.

LUSH: Hon. ~ember for Terra Nova, one Du:r:inq the time when the fi.re was at its greatest intensity, of course, it was practically impossible to employ firefigh~ars because of the danger, but again there was some concern expressed !:hat maybe the working crews, the men, the fire­ fighters cou..ld. have been on t:ha site a little earlier . But I can ajj)preciate the woz:ry there wnere t.ile fire was so t.ig, 71

July 16, 1979 Tape no. 28 DW - l ~lR. T. LUSH; but I am ~ndering 1 now ~~at the fi~e is lessened somewhat 1 whether we are at the stage where firefighters can be employed for twenty-four hours around the clock? MR. SRliXER (SIMMS) : Ron. minister. MR. J. MORGAN: Well , Mr. Speaker , it seelltS that there never was a problem in connection with getting - we will call them ''hlunteers.' They are not volunteers once they come on staff in woorldng and fightinq a fire. We ~ay them a salary of $35 per day anc! their expenses. We have nevex- experienced any problem in gettinq the numbex- of required forest firefighters.

If we ever did, of course, we '<iOUl.d· have to look at the ~saibility of BIIIPlOying a numbax- of th­ en a seasonal basis. Because we have never experiaDced that ~roblem we have had no consideration given to keeping them on around the clock. !o!R. SPEAKER: _MR. L. S'l'IRLING: The hon. member for Bonavista Nox-th. Thank you, t~r. :;peaJ~er. I also have a question for the Minister of Lands and f'OTests (Mr. Morqan) • I happen to represent the district that was wiped out in the 1961 fire' and many of those who are available for worT. are available because there is no worlc available on a permanent basis.

From the answers the ll'.inister has given it is obvious that firefightinq consists of havinq a number of observers around and watching the wind, saying, "Boys, I think she is loolcinq bad but if the wind turns around it is all riat\t and if it rains we will be okay. • I wonder i.f the minister can answer a question dealing with Bona vista rlorth specifically . There was a news report that in the fires that started in Trinity and Indian Bay , and now in the Galllbo fire 1 that there was evidence of arson. Ras the minister pursued that question and does he have an answer? ...,:'IR. SPEAKER: :-!R. J.

MORGMJ: Ron. minister • Mr. Speaker, in reply to the ore amble of that question,I would like to point out that the forest firefiqhters, many of them from the area of Bonavista North, surely would not appreciate 72

J':.~l y 16. 197'? Tape No . · :s ow - 2 thei.r watc!U.nq 1;he •.tinds and, watehil1q the rains ov-er the last .number of weeks instead ·t~~£ fiqbting a fire. 'l'heywo~l!f;l pre'l:ty hart~. 'l'he question of these fin eauses this year - a total of Sl Utes to d,ata that we h.ava loOked at ~d investi­ qated. there is a p()ssibil.ity of either the fire has been set deliQel<at;e,J.y the majorj;t;y of thes.e fires were caused !:'y 73

.July 16, 1979 Tape No. 29 NM - l MR. MORGAN: lightning, in most cases lightning, like the large fire we had recently was caused by lightning. In some areas of the Province, one of them being the Hare Bay area, which is Bonavista North, we have reasons to believe, and I say reasons to believe, that there was some arson. Fires were being deliberately . set.

These matters are now being thoroughly investigated by the law enforcement agencies, the RCMP in co-operation with the officials of the Department of Forestry, and we are deteJ:mined, if we can find tangible evidence that they were set deliberately 1 that there will be prosecutions. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. fo10 SP!AKElt (Simms): ROBERTS: STIRLING: NEARY: SPEAXEI!.: Bona vista North. The hon. member for LaPoile. Do you have a supplementary? Yes. My hon. friend has a supplementary. A ~pplementary, the b.on. member MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. SpeaJter.

Will the minister now be hiring - we are in the middle of Summer, and in view of all of the points that he has made will he now be hiring _ and training additional men to put on stand-by in these areas? MR. SPEAKER: Forests . MR. MORGAN: The hen. Minister of Lands and As I mentioned earlier, Mr. Speaker, unfo~unately the hon. gentleman from Bonavista North was not listening when I answered the question put forward by his colleague from Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight), that we do have the most competent forest fire fighting staff anywhere in Canada. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

NEARY: hon. the Premier, Sir • But not enough! But not enough! The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the In view of the fact that the Throne Speech expressed grave concern on the part of the government to try and get . 74

July 16, 197 9 Tape No. 29 l·lM- 2. MR. NEARY: a, "commitment from the Government of Canada to the continued operation of the railway and its siqnifieant upqradinq over time," to quote the Throne Speech Urec:tly, WOUld the hon. gentleman indicate to the lfQuse if the provincial government have taken any action to stave off the .U.y-of .f of fourteen operator positions with CN and eventually the lay off of twen;y-six station llliUiaqez'S in the Province? Mit. SP£Al<ER (Simms) : The hon. the Premier. Mr.

Speaker, I am not aware of the l,.ay-offs that the hon. member refers to but I will take the question under adVi.~t and pursue it with all di.liqenc:e over the next twenty-four hours. MR.~: A ·supplementary question, Mr. SpeaJcer. I am completely amazed, Sir, and shoc:Jced that the hon. qentleman is not aware t:bat his counterpart up in Ottawa is qoinq to close down twenty-six stations in this ~rovinc:e, with a view to phasing out the rai.lway 'branches to Carbonear, Bon.avista and Arqentia, and th• hon. l?relilier does not know about it, Mr. Spealcer.

I want to ask the bon. gentleman if he llas been· inforuled by any official 75

July 16, l9i9 Tape JO P!C - 1 ~!r. Neary: in the Government of canada or ~y the Minister of Transport (Hon. Donald Mazankowski) in the Government of Canada that they are indeed qoing to lay off ~he station mangers, lay off the operators and close down twenty-six stations in t~is Province and eventually close down the branch lines to the areas that I just mentioned? MR. SPEAKER (MR. SIMMS): The hen. the Premier. P~"UER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: I just answered that question, Mr. speaker. Mr.

Speaker, do I understand the hen. gentleman co=ectly t.l:lat the hon. gentleman does not know if it is the intention of Canadian National, a Crown corporation of the Government of canada, to close down three major branch lines in this Province when the hon. gentleman in the Throne Speech expressed a view to have a continued operation and upgrading of the railway in t.'lis Province? The hon. gentleman knows nothing about any layoffs or any close down of these branch lines? Do I understand the hen. gentleman correctly? MR.. SPEAI<ER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORO: Mr.

Speaker, I think I answered the hon. member in the initial question that he asked. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAICER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. order, please! In the event - Order, please! If I might, my understanding of the hon. Premier's reply is that he was taking the question under advisement and would report on it within the next twenty-four hours. MR. NEARY: A supplementary then, Mr. Speaker.

After the hen. gentleman gets his advice, and the hon. gentleman is convinced in his own mind that these branches are going to be closed, what ste~s will this government take to stave off any closure of the branch lines that I mentioned until the Advisory Committee that was appointed recently makes its recommendations . of how freight can be put back and passengers can be put back on the rail line in this Province? 76

July 16, 1979 Tape 30 P!<-2 !1R. SPEAKER (SUlMS) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I indicated to the hon. gentleman in response to his first question that I will take the matter that he has raised under advisement and report back to the Bouse in twenty­ four hours , and therefore what action will be taken is dependent upon confirmation or otherwise of the information as the hen. member bas provided here this afternoon. .· MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, I think everybody by now Knows there are approximately 130 dead whales on the beach near Point .-.u Gaul. I would like to ask the Minister of othe Environment (Mrs. Newhook), consumer Affairs and Environment, if I understand correctly, W'hat steps are being taken to dispose of the approximately 130 dead whale carcasses in that are? AN !!ON. MEMBER: That is federu. MR. THOMS: No, once they are dead it becomes the responsibility of the Provincial Oepartlllent of the Environment. MR. ROBERTS: A whale of a problem. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of consumer Affairs and Environment.

MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. speaJter, I am advised by my department that our men are looking for a suitable st:.retch of remote deserted coast line to which these m!liiiii!Als can be towed and they can be partly - MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder would the hen. minister speak into the microphone. Order, please! :;,;;MRS=.:.· .. NEWH==OO=K;.;.·;..· __ Oh, I am sorry. Mr. Speaker, I understand from lilY department that our people are looking at a ?7

July 16, 1~7~ Tape No. 31 ow - l !".RS. H. ~WHOOK: suitabie =emote deserted stretch of beach line where these mammals can be towed, partially buried and left to decompose. They cannot be to-d out to sea as I understand that this could be a hazard to shippinq • But we do have an alternative and Fishery Prochx:ts has asked our department if we would hold off on a decision of this kind for a n'WIIber of hours until they can find out whether or not it is goinq to be feasible for them to process this meat and to extract the oil for other purposes • And this we will be doinq. MR. L. THOMS: 1\ supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SP'"'..AKER (SIMMS): A supplementary, the hon. member for Grand Bank. SOME RON.~: Hea.r, hear! MR. L. THOMS: If I may I would like to direct a supplementary question to the Minister of ~isherias (Mr. w. Carter) to find out whether or not and wha.t steps are beinq taken to control the pothead herd in this Province which. is causinq extensive damaqe to fisha:anen 's gear. Jom. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the matter of controlling whal.es, the settinq of qnotas, liftinq bans is certainly the responsibility of Ottawa and I would think - SOME RON • MEMBERS : ~.

SPEAKER: MR. J. MORGliN: !1R. W. CAR!'ER: Oh, oh! Order, please! And control the weather besides! I WOil.ld c:tlrtainly thiDic that my very efficient and active counterpart in Ottawa is lookinq at that problem and will find some solution to it. MR. F. ROWE: ~R. SPE~: Mr. Speaker. The hon • member for 'l"ri!li ty - Bay de Verde. ?8

July 16, 1979 Tape 'TO. Jl nw - 2 ~R. F. ROWE : Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. w. carter), sir. r wonder . if the ~inister could explain to the Rouse why nineteen small craft harbours projects that were approved in March or April of 1979 at a cost of approximately S2.9 lllillion 1 why some h.on. members cannot qat any indication as to the exact status of these projects as to whether they will go ahead or ~ot tQis year in ~ineteen communities such as Jac.lcson' s Arm, Marqaree, MUsgrave Razbour, Red Bay, Red Rar.bour and I will not go throuqh the whole list.

Would the minister explain why we cannot qet some indications as to the st~tus of these projects? 1'll. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : Hon. minister. MR. W. CAR'!'ER: Mr.

Speaker , I am sure that the hon • member is as aware as I am that that is a question that should be more properly directed to the Federal Oepartr.1ent of Fisheries or .... the oepal:tment of Public WOrks- But certainl.y insofar as the freeze is concerned 1 or the so-called freeze, I have discussed that matter wi:th. the federal minister and r am assured by him that it is a very temporary t:.b.inq md once the ministers get a chance to sort thinqs out that then the freeze should be lifted. MR . ?. ROWE : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SP'!'!lUCER: . A supplementary. MR.

F. rowE: Do r understand correctly, ~ 1 r. Speaker, that the Provincial Minister of Fisheries has indeed made representation t:o the Federal Minister of Fisheries reqardinq 79

July lo, 1979 XR. ? • ?.OWE: ~~ey will definieely go ahead? MR. Sl'EAla.:R: (Simms) !om. . If. c;.R'lER: Tape 32 r;c - 1 these nineteen projec~ and that The' hon. tha :·linister of :isneries. Sir, I have talked to ~~e lllin..ister abollt the freeze generally, not iii:lollt any specific projects or the ni:leaen he referred to. Again I can only L"epeat that I haw talked to the minister and. he has ass11red ma that the freeze is tempOruy until ~~1 get a cnanca eo sort tninqs Ollt and hopeflllly it will be lifted. That is all I can tell him at this time. MR. F. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, a f'.n-ther supplementary. A supplementary. Would the minister undertake, Sir, to try to qat a de:fin.ite indication fram the federal lllin..ister as to when the freeze rill be lif~ and to qive t:iU.s House some ass11rance that,indeed, these nineteen projects will go ahead this year? liR. SPEAKER: .'!R. w. CARl'ER: The bon. tllinister. Mr. Speaker, I have !llade npresentaeion to the minister and aqain I can only repeat that the freeze, I am told, will be lifted once the various projects have been studied by the new government and sorted out by the new tllinistars. MR. liOOCE.R: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. MR.. SPEAla.:.R: A supplamenta.ry, the hon. the member for Port au Port. liR. liODC£1!.: A supplementary to the. Minister of E'isneries. Just as a

preamble to the supplementary and. to refresh the tllinister' s --ry, one of t.~e projects - I cio not know if it was one of these nineteen projects or not - one of the projec~ wilicll came from the Economic GroWth co111p0nent of Canada :-lanpower of Sl ,066,000 for the Blue Beacll project, wilidl would be the cornerstone of the fishery in til.e district of Port au Port, I understand from the Small Craft !:iarbollr people that ~'U.s particular project looks very doubtful at the present time. I would like. to ask the minister if he can give the same assurances for that particular project as he did for the other eighteen? 80

Ju.ly 16, 1979 Tape 32 E:C - 2 MR. SP~R: (Simms) The hen. t."le !tinist:er of Fisheries. !o!R. W. ~R: Mr. Speaker, the hen. member should know bat:ter, that I cannat: c;i ve hi.lll an assurance tha.t the Blua Beach p:r:oject: wiJ.l proc:aed as planned.. It is a federal project: !:Iaine; funded by the federal gaverl\llllnt. and if they elect to put a. freeze on the lll)ney tha.t is needed to put t."la.t facility in plac:a that is their bu.sine.ss.

I can ce~nly illake representation to them but when it ccu.s to insurinq that the project proceeds as planned, he knows, as I am sure do all IIIIIJIIbitrs of the iiou.se, that I have no power in that reqarci. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: ?ott au ?ort. MR. RODDER: Mr. Speaker, a. supplementary.

A supplementary, the han. the member for This particular project:, in which the first phase is completed but which is of no use until the second pnase is complet:ed, the minister must know that the provincial government infrastructure and the amount of lll)ney that has been a.lraady expended by, say, the Fisheries Loan Board to people who have bouqht . lonqliners to usa that particular haxilour and wllich is one of the larqest development.& of its kind on the West Coast, which may :Cri.nq p:r:osparity to th.e fishery in Port au Port, has the minister spoken ~ut this major 81

July lE, 1979 Tape No. 33 li.H-1 :-!R. HOODER: project to his counterparts in Ottawa? And where is the co-operation ~at we heard about in ~e eleceion? SOME HON. MEMBERS: 1-!R. SPEAJCER: (Simms) MR. W. CARTER: !iear,hear! The hon. lllir.ister. Mr' Speaker, we are very ll!llc:h aware of the expenditures that will l:le r~red to provide the necessary infrastructure at Blue Beach. !or example, three phase power,I am told,would cost probably $250,000. The upqradinq of that six or eiqht mile stretch of road to Blue Beach will have to be put in better condition and thereby eostinq probably another ~250,000 or SJOO,OOO.

We are vary much aware of the Province's respon!~ibillties in that reqard and I can only say that once the projece proqresses - I miqht ~,by the way,that we are not entirely happy as a provinci~ govenll11811t with the desiqn of the harbour that is beinq placed there. We think it is probably inadequate to accomodate lonqliners. We are not sure that it is biq enouqh. and I think we have made our views known to Ottawa in that reqard.

But certainly when it comes to the Province's responsibilities , I have no doubt that my colleagues in cabinet will give the appropriate deparcmant 1 whether it l:le PUblic works, l!iqhways or Fisheries, the necessary 1110ney to undertake the · improvements when the time cCIIIIeS. !o!R. SP!AlCER: LaPoile . MR. NEARY~ The hon. member for lo!r. Spealce:r, TJrlf question is for the han. the Premier.

We understand that the hen. qentleman the moment that the election was over issued instructions to have a review made of all CrOW!l Corporations, positions of Deputy Minister, Assistant Deputy Minister and senior Civil Servants . First of all I would Uke to ask the hon. gentlelllan to coa.fi~ whether or not this is correce and if so would the han . gentleman indicate to the House what the purpose of this review miQ'ht l:le? 82

July 16,1979 ~R. S.P:EJIJC:ER: (Simms) PREMIER PECXFORD: '!'ape No. 33 AH-2 The hon. Pre~~~ier. Mr. Speaker, there is and ~o~ill be for the next two or three months a review of all the functions, aims and objectives of aqencies and Crown Corporatio~ of the qove:aunent undertaken by myse~f and Cabinet.

There ~o~i~l also be a review of the ailas and objectives and the ~~~andates of all the departments in the qove:rnment in consultation with the senior s;taff and the minister aud deputy minister and so on of those deparutents. ~nd after th~~ review has been done,over a three month period or so on , qoveri!IIIant will then review all that !nfo=a'i;ion, review all those discussions and make decisions relatinq to the onqoinq mandate for these various departments, the personnel of these departments, the onqoinq mandata o: the aqencies, the Crown corporations and the personnel of those aqencies and Crotm Corporations.

MR. SPEAJCER: Ortler, please! I am advised that the time for Oral Questions has expired. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: OpPf'Sition. ISOME liON. M!liiBERS : MR. JAM!!: SON: ORDERS 01" THE DAY The Address in Reply. The ~ass in Reply. The non • Leader of the Hear, hear! :tt.

Speaker, durinq the openinq day ceremonies, over which, may I say in passinq , I and my colleaques and I am sure all members present felt you presided admirably, on that occasion I indicatec! in rather detailed fo:cn the attitude that we on this side of the House would take with reqard to the government's proqriiDIIIe so therefore there is really no necessity for me this aftemoon to repeal" onyself other than to emphasi . .ll.e what I said then and l!hich continues to be of i.lll!llense importance, namely 1 that we on this side of the House are prepared to co-<:~perate fully with the qove:rnment on any measure that is d111110nstrably and clearly 83

J uly 16 , 19 7 ~ Tape No. 33 AH-3 !t.R. JM4IESON: for the benefit of the people of Newfound~. In my approac.'l to this partic:ular d~a.te 1 t confess I found myself .in scmethinq of a ~dart and pemaps I caD b419':f.n 1ly say.inq t.'lat While then is a c;ooa deal of ta.lk in the Speech FrOIII The Throne and. in the Premier's remarks whiCh toll.owed about new be<JinnincJs and new datmtnqs, the fact of the matwr is of COil..""Se tl'..at we are nt.1t • .,it:neseinq a new beginn:l.nq here taday nor did we on 'l'hunday.

What we are witnessinq is essentially a continuation, a ecn~nuatio~;~ of a qove:mment which luul been in office in Newfoun~Uancl. for ~r seven years. There has b- a chanqe in its lea.darship, and. I have said that I CQII!Pliment the Premier and I wish hila well, J - -- 84

.Ju.ly lo, 1979 Tape No. J4 SLJ - l ~lR. ~. JAH:U:SON: ~ut wilen one looics apposite ic is perfectly acVious that it is,in tact, witn t:he welcome addition, I 1114Y say 1 of our two new lady m.in.i.stars, t.'le same group by and large wnic:h nas been di:cec::tillq tha affa.i.rs of Newfouncilanci since 1972. A sec:o.IKi fact wilic:il. I think it is important t,;•at I take tlll . .oi afterllQon is - it is certainly not a p~....Uan comment on my pa.r-c 1 and if it is, it is shared by a great many objective observers-that the Throne Speech says very little that is rea.rJ.y new. Indeed, Mr.

Speaker, I think that ha.:a been che general assassman-c nat onl.y of those of u.s wil.o might be expec1:ed <:a m.i~Xe that ki.IKi of judg-nt but of others in the business cOIIIIIIWlity, in tha journalistic: ~ty iUKi eJ.sewne.ra. Fact !Ullllber t."lrae, I mantioneci on the day of tile openinq of tile aouse, is that I am at the :m:~mant, of course, as are my colJ.aagues,waiting witll somatiling less than te rvid anticipation to tile budget del:late and wnat is going to be said "r;.y tha Minister of Finance \l:lr. J. Collins) on Thursday. so puttinq all these things together, it seems to me, Mr.

Speak.er, that I would be perfectly justified if on this particular occasion and in Chis decate I were to adopt the exclusive attitude of .being critical of tile record of Chis gova=ant because there is nothing other chan rhetoric beyon.;i that on which we can go. ;.nd. I inteno to do some of that. I may say chat while I did not have ac:c:ass to the new b~aqet ,I went cnrouqn cha ratllar painful exercise of readinq nine previous Speeches frOJA the 'l'hrane aac:J. five b~ts.

I have not dane so so much to score political points becausa,to be realistic, political o>oints a.t Chis stage in tile game a short montll after an el11ction, probably are a;~t going to be remembered for very lonq anyway. But I do want,in jus~ a few sentances,to cite ?art of that record, ~a.rtly to remind the Government that its record has bean scmathing less tnan perfect 1 85

Ju.ly 16, 1979 Tape No. 34 SiJ - 2 ..tR. D. JAMIESON : out a.l..so and even ~.re important to look at the .record and ask OW':selves wily there ha.ve been these failures and wily, if these failures have occurreci 1 we do not see somet.'ling niiW anci 1110re creative with. raqard to e.nsW':inq that they <.ia not aappen aqa.in. I will leave most of tile statistical materiill for tlle auciqet debate, :Cut I think it is illlpor~nt to recal.l at this st.aqe,i.f only in a serie.o of one l.i.ne.r5,some of tne rsally unhappy news tilat we face in Newfouncilalld today.

The nighest level .of unemployment in t:lle whollt of Canada, higher considerably than it was six or seven years ago and escalatinc; rather t.ha.n decl.i.ninc;. Fact number two, the highest cost of l.i.vinq. Only this 1110rninc; the niiWS .reported chat of fifteen selected cities in Canada, St. John's was the :nest expansive one in te:tmS of the CPI in the last survey. If that is true of St. John's, I can as sue hon. IIIBIIICus, as they will well knew, those who live outside St. John's that tba situation is, in fact, even more serious in places like COl:Ilel: BJ:ook and in !:he remater areas of Newfoundland.

Fact !WIIIber three, an astronomical public debt in ra.W.tion to the comparatively small poplllation of NewfoWid.l.and.. Now, tilese are not, I repsat,arqu.aQle statements. They are facts which <lave been rec:ordaci dismally over alld over aqilin. When one acids to chat info:cnation certa.in ot:ner reminders which 86

July 16, 1979 Tape No. 35 NM - l $. JAMIESON: I want to 9rovide for the government, and for my colleagues ~ow, one has to temper to some degree the optimism of the Speech from the Throne and the optimism to which I personally referred on Thursday. For example,despite extremely costly nationalization,we have not seen any new hydro developments in Labrador in t.':!e last four or five years.

The Come By Chance refinery remains closed. aappily,now,there has been a revitalization, at last 1 of the Linerboard mill in Stephenville but only after there has been an enormously costly failure in terms of nationalization and also only after, Mr. Speaker, we have had a quite remarkably expensive bail-out of that particular operation on the basis of both the federal and the provincial governments.

Now in addition to these facts , in going through those nine previous throne speeches, buried in the Archives along with them are such promised commitments of this government to not only re-open Come By Chance but to have a second refinery, a petro-chemical industry, deep water ports, massive industrialization of Labrador, a polytechnical institute. In all of these,by the way, I am confining myself prinicipally to the industrial development side and am omittinq any comments with regard to the fishery which, if time permits, I propose to deal with at greater length later.

Now what is the conclusion that one can draw from all of this? It is, it seems to me, a bill of particulars which clearly indicates that with the exception of t.':!e fishery, which has its own particular problems, with the exception of that basic industry, the fundamental basic economic structure of Newfoundland remains virtually what it was seven or eight years age.

One cannot find in the totality a really dramatic change in the structure and consequent1y 1 therefore,one is bound to ask whether a whole new set of ideas now being put forward and all,Dy the way,as I said on Thursday and I repeat now, highly commendable, are going to be any more successful in the next five years than they have been in the past. 87

July 16, 1979 Tape No. 35 NM - 2 :1R. JAMIESON: ~ow I asked at the beginning why this kind of review was necessary at all. Why do we bo~er to turn over the stones 7 as it were,or to look back over our shoulders? ~nd I do so, I assure you, Mr. Speaker, for only one reason and that is to ask myself what the Premier and the authors of the Speech from the Throne must have asked themselves and that is why it has happened? Not just incidentally in the period of the last seven or eight years but also as the Speech from the Throne pointed out, historically in Newfoundland.

And I am no1: sure if there is a slight irony or not in the Speech fro.m the Throne but it does,in fac"C,reflect an indictment on this government also, because it does not stop abruptly at 1972 and say from that point on everything has been rosy. By the very nature of the tone which it sets it confesses that this government has been no more successful than its predecessors on the basic rundamental economic and industrial problems of Ne~oundland.

When I ask myself why it has happened in the case of this governmen1:, and I read these documents, there is one thing that stands out and that is that the government,! believe, has suffered from what I fear is. an all too general failing on the part of many of us in Newfoundland and that is a lack of realism.

When. you go through the various projects you see this ~hread which,in fact 7 in its own way the Speech from the Throne delineates, which says that we are always seeking some single major kind of way to turn things around, that as long back as the 1800s and throughout tha'C depressing period of the '30s and so on it has been a similar story. But I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that this government, even more than most has lacked realism in its p;!.anning 88

.:uly 16, 1979 Tape 36 EC - l and two axioms come to mind wil.ich I commend not only to the government but to all of us who are interested in development in Newfoundland. One of these is - and it is an import:ant one - that if a fundamental. idea is sound, hard wor.k. will, cllances are, make it succeed. If the basic idea is wrong you can sweat blood.. You can, in fact, spend tens of millions of dollars and tile project will fail. :.low that is written throughout the wb.ole history of Newfoundland. It is written throughout the ilistory of this particular government.

Th.e second axiom - and it is one, I believe, that ilighly COII'IIIeilds itself to this particular government - is that one tl1at is so familiar that I am never quite sure wily politicians de not recognize the wisdcm of it, and that is tl1at every action brings a reaction. And when you study the nistory of tl1is government over these last years, what becomes obvious is that there has been a lack of cohesion at the top. There has been a failure of co-ordination.

Th.e examples of this are legion but I will only give three or four witi.cn are relatively, currant whi.;h demonstrate wb.at I am speaking a.bout and wb.y it is necessary for us to have botl1 tl1e realism and the hard-nose assessment of projects before eitl1er individual. departments or ministers or members for that matter, proceed.

In terms of every action breeding a reaction, let me, for example, first of all demonstrate that we have ~~is day, demands from sources in the Newfoundland Government that all foreign trawlers be removed from the 200 mile limit, and oot only from the 200 mile limit, but also from tl1e total.ity of the Continental. Shelf. Th.at is one policy. Simultaneously, there is the promotion of a syn.;hrolift for the city of St. John's, the very survival of which would, of course, disappear l.f there were not the erawlers in place that ~~e otl1er part of the policy is seeking to eliminate.

So consequently, you cannot be doing both of these ~'lings at precisely the same time. The second point in terms of this inconsistency that I am speaking of, has tc do with a matter wb.icil my hon • .::riend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) raised with regard to the future of the rail•..-ay. 89

July 16, 1979 Tape 36 EC - 2 MR. JAIUZSON: Now, we have as Newfowuil.anders, and this i:iouse as a. Legislature, endorsed that t:.ile railway should be revitalized. ! UI'Wit say the news ;ooe have heard eoday is disturbing in that regard. aut in ta%111S of contrad.ic:tcry policies here we see a. govenuaent seeking to promate !114jor use of rail. for freight .but simultaneously seeking to meet a. wilole series of regional ciemanda for port development, all. of which if they ware to COIIIIl together, would unquestionably lllllan a. significant increase in the am::~unt of competition for rail. You cannot, Mr.

Speaker, to put it very simply, move the sama ton of freight twice. And if you a.rs going to encourage a. heavy increase in the amount of direct water transport, it runs head on into the policy of encouraging and ciawloping rail. freight, in a sensa the key element in that kind of. transportation system.

Of course, I could cite many ot.'ler examples - the enormously costly nationalization of Brinco without the follow-up being ready to know where we were going on the Labrador hydro, and then, of course, also, tl1a sti.rring up of very genuine concerns . wilicil my colleaCJUSS from Labrador will know abo11t as to what kinda of industrial development are going to qo there if they qo tl1era, all of that oeing stirred up, people tieing concerned, ~d at the same time not enough new hydro being generated there to tu:n on a light blllb.

So I repeat that t.'lere are these two points wilicil I believe it is important that we and the government bear in mind. ~w I detaC1:. that in recent months, certainly in the last year and a. half or so, some of these things llava dawned on the qove:rnmant. Because in the Budget of 1978, wilich is tile mcst recent one 90

JL!ly 16, 1979 Tape 37 l?K - l Mr. Jamieson: to which I have any access,in any event, it is clear that the government has come to see that many of the things which it has been advocating are simply mutually exclusive with other things which it is advocating. Now part of this Budget is a blueprint, as it is called, r have read it several times. It is,in fact, a thoughtful documert and in terms of the way it sets out the facts of the matter it is not a document that one can argue with in statistical terms.

I am not sure whether it is this blueprint of 1978 which is reflected in the Speech from the Throne, because each speaks of five year plans, for example, and very many of the projects and very many of the approaches are somewhat similar. But let us assume, in any event, unless we hear otherwise,that it is indeed still a valid document, that it has not gone down the drain totally within a matter of twelve or fourteen months. ~ow 1 if that is so it paints a very frightening picture for Newfoundland on the one hand.

Because let me emphasize to you that in the government's own graphs what it says in essence is that unless, unless this five yea:r: programme, which I emphasize is the same presumably as the one in the Speech from the Throne, unless it works we will face a 20 per cent unemployment rate in Newfoundland by the year 1982 or 1983 depending upon whether the five years beqin 1 as this document says 1 in 1977 or begins in 1978. Incidentially, the slippage is already evident.

Because when you look at the blueprint, the employment figure now should be something of the order of one hundred and seventy odd thousand people The latest statistics show it at something like one hundred and sixty odd thousand in the lat-our force. aowever, that is probably something that can ~~ adjusted in terms of statistics. The truth is,howeve~ that the plan must work. Now,let us assume that it works. Let us assume that all of the things that have been said here come to pass; if that happens,the unemployment rate by the government's own admission is 10 per cent.

What they are saying is, that the best we can hope to do by the year 1982 or 1983 or 1984) depending, I repeat, at which point this magical cycle starts, 91.

July 16, 1979 ~ape 37 PK - 2 ~lr. Jamieson: is get it down to 10 per cent. ~ow that is above the national average,considerably, as the national average exists at t..'l.e present time.

One other point in this regard that I think it is important to point out, and in the process of pointing it out I also want to ask what I said earlier was one of those hard questions that we will pose, so far as I can see in dealing with the per capita income,that Newfoundlanders can expect at the end of the next five years,in projecting what that income is going to be,the figure is said to be 25 per cent higher in real dollars than it was in 1977 .

And without becoming too convoluted with figures,I calculate that what is being said here, in essence, is that if the plan works, if the Speech from the Throne carries through in its totality,the average Newfoundlander, per capita, can look forward to an income of about S6,300 by the year 1982 or 1983. Mow,obviously,since it is per capita, it means t..~t there is going to be an enormous difference.

And one of the t..'Ungs that really concerns me about this is what is going tc happen to the already great disparity bet'Ween those who have strong bargaining power in the economy and those who have very little capability of looking after themselves. I hope that the Minister of Finance (Dr . J.

Collins) or some other appropriate minister will address themselves to this question because it is a very serious concern. aut apart altoge~her from that , what we are saying , unless I misread this dOClJIIIent totally, is that given every one of those elements fitting into place, and I emphasized on Thursday how difficult that is, given that we can hope for a level of unemployment in Newfoundland of about 10 per cent at the end of the five year cycle. That is 92

July 16,1979 Tace No. 38 AH-1 ~R. Jli.MIESON: the best that we can ho~e for. And we can hope for an income in 1977 terms of S6300. Now,tr.e q~~stion that I pose both in a personal kind of philosophical _way but also to those who have the responsibility to qovern, is, are those 1 in fact 7 the kinds of expectations that will result in the kind of satisfied public to which the latter part of the Speech From The Throne refers? If I am •.-ronq in my stastistical caculations here, I would hope that the hon. members opposite would show me. But I have, I assure you, looked at: their own precise figures.

Now before I qet into more of the blueprint,! want to raise three or four specific matters which I believe the qovernment ouqht to level with us and ouqht to level with the people of Newfoundland about. The first of these is the refinery in Come By Olance. I rai. :c it, naturally first, because it is in my own district of Bell~vue.

Here is a caae where I can only describe it as traqic, the manner in which 7 fol·lowinq each piece of information that is dro9Ped in, in one way or another: by a minister or by someone else, 1: qet phone calls from my constituents from as far away as Alberta sayinq I understand that the Come By ~ance ~efinery is about to reopen and askinq can we come home because that is wl!.at they want to do. or people who are still livinq in the constituency askinc;. how soon they think they are qoinq to qet their jobs back. Now,I understand the complexity of this matter.

What I fault the government for, however, is the manner in which it has let out the infor:mation about this project in dribs and drabs. I understand that there are difficulties but first of all we were told that it was a J!latter of envi:omnental conditions only. Followinq that, the Premier himself said that he was qoinq to seek a better deal so that we could get back some of our ss-:.. m1.1.licn. Aqain hiqhly commendable, no arqument with it. Subsequent to tr.at, however, and in the last ten days to twc (veekz ... ha<: do we find?

We find that there is a very deep federal involvement in this as well if it is qoinq to function. 93

July 16,1979 Tape No. 38 .:u!-2 ~R. JAMIESON: The Min:i.ster of Finance in Ottawa (Mr.Crosbie) said, I believe on Thursday or Friday, that there is going to be a need for financial funding. I do not know how much but I am infomed reliably that it is substantial. They obViously and clearly '"ant to renegotiate the wharf arranqu.ntsvith the federal government. The Foreiqn Investment Revue Aqency must deal with it and I have no idea, being a layman, what the leqal COIIIPlications are. But I am sensible enouqh, I think, to judge from all ol that,that that is qoinq to take sOIIIetillle t:o put toqether.

I ccmmend the government for saying that it will take the tiJne. What I do think the people are entitled to know is all the facts now and how soon, if at all, the government really thinks it can be reopened on the present basis. Now let me just pose one or two other questions in this regard. For ex&D~Ple,I do not believe that this House,wnich I presuma at some stage i.s going to have to deal with this matter, I do not believe that we should accept anything less than absolute iron clad guarantees with reqard to the financial stability of the ccmpany concerned.

It lll&Y be that it is everything that has 'been said of it. The second point which r believe is absolutely essential, and that is that they demonstrate beyond any question that in fact. an adequate supply of crude oil is going to be available. Not speculative, noe the kind of th.ino;r that is goinq to be subject to the whims or the fortunes of same very, ve.ry precarious kind of situation, but guaranteed crude oil supplies. And thirdly, that there is going t:o be , as well, a very adl!qU3te assurance with :regard to lllarkets. ! could go intc this in considerably more detail.

I do think, incidentially, that the c;ove:rn~~~ant onqht to have a second st:rin9 to its bow . !fat sugqestinqo that First Arabian ·be abandoned, I a111 not aJ:'9Uing that nor am I arquinq for any other kind of proposal that may be before t.'le qove:mment 94

Jl.l.ly lo, 1979 ~ape 39 ~c - 1 :.IR. J;..'1IESON 1 at this present time,. :.ut I am 5aying that since, as I und.erstand. it, the government at Ottawa. is a.lrea.ciy h.aving some second thoughts abouc its ~andcnment or promised al:lanc!cnment of ?etro Canada, that we should be looking at that particular option as wall, and we should be doing it now so that we knew whether there is some realism in it and we will net h.a.ve another prolcnqed. period of speculation if for any reason the current negotiations fail.

I want to etllt-nd two other poincs to the govemment also in keeping with wnat I said. on Thursday about advancing wilat I nope are constructive suggestions. I think it is important to !:lear in mind that there b.ava been ongoing negotiations with the United States fer soma time with regard tc a security of supply arrangement between Canacia and the U.s. This is linked in with the Wabanex proposal on Bell Island.

I would like tc recollllll8nd to whoever the responsible minister is that he i~<sura that the Government of Canada is pursuing this matter viqourously, and I do that particularly in the light of ?resident Carter's statements of lase nigh c. There is no question in IllY mind that the bast answer fer Coma By Chance, whoever the operator turns out tO be, would be that it is an in-bend refinery with the dadicatad produce assured tc the American ma:r.kat so that there are none of these speculative questions and the future is assured.

Now t.':lere is another problem in this regard, of course, and thac is that in te:rms of the United States there should also be negotiations with regard to insuring that t.':lat access comes in such a way tnat enal:lles the markets to be assured there without the tariff problems lo/hl.ch curren~y exist. And here if I may, Mr.

Speaker, I want tc touch on t.':le energy situation because I th.ink everyone h.ere is perfectly well aware of t.'1e h.crrendous situation currently developing which produced ·· Presid.ent Carter's speech of last night as well as sc11111 of the dire waxn.inqs that we nave heard from other industrialized countries including our own Canadian Minister of Finance in recent days. I nope that the government of this pr~vince ;,ill not succumb to t.':le appeal~wh.ich is admitcedly there 1of saying that t:."le 95

July, 16' l9i9 Tape 39 i::C - 2 ~'l.. Jrl.'UESON: faster we rea~~ world oil prices the better it is goinq to be for our own oil and gas offshore drilling proqramma.

I uncill!rst.mci that there is validity in t.na.t argument but the downside of tilat ·..,tu.c:tl is i..mmediate and wlti.ch is qoin.g to pose for this gova:mment anci for tlti.s Premier vary serious problems in federal/provincial relations, is whether or oot we are going to face a situation in Newfoundland where the consumer 7 pe:d1aps a.s recently or a.s early as t.us Winter, is going to be faced wit.'l an enormous increase in both fuel oil and gasoline prices. Now, I hope hon. !118111be:rs will t.X.e my word for these figures.

I can calcula"l;& tilea out, but in the interest of saving time, even before the last set of prices were announced by OPEC and t..b.e world producing countries even before that - the si.tuation for the averaqe ccnsumer in Newfoundland was this, that but for tile present federal/provincial arrangement wi til regard to c:usb.ioning prices, if that- not in place, right now we would be 9aying somathing like thirty cents a ga.ll.on lll)re for gasoline at t.'1e PWIIP· I figure that on 1,200 gallons of fuel oil a year, which is oot "oy any means the largest amount spent by a llevfoundland bouseholder but considerable -but on 1,200 gallons, if it went to world price before the new OPEC increases are calculated in, the difference would be somewhere between $770 and perhaps Sl,lSO or $1,200.

Now, when you look at wb.at has b.appened in t.'le last three or four weeks and you see the. threat that: we in canada may have to go to world oil prices, what this means for the next year or so in Newfoundland, and escalating preswu.bly from there for a wnile, is that the consl.llllllr is going to be hit with an incredibly increased ener~ oill. i~ow, I do oot want tlti.s a.fteJ:nOOn to taite too much time with the intricacies of tnis whole package witn regard to fadaral/provincial relations, but I do nope that t.'le government now takes oote, if it has not already - and I suspect it has - t.'lat 96

J'uly 16, 1979 Tape 40 ?K - l ~!r.. Jamieson: this sudden impac~ on us, whatever merits it may have with regard to spurring still further offshore oil and gas,is going to be a terrible blow to our consumers. But more than that, Mr. Speaker, it puts at jeopar4y mucb that is in this plan.

Because, of course 1 the ripple effect of inflation is going to be great and it will no~ just be che ordinary consumer who will be grappling with this large increase in gasoline and oil prices, it is going to be industry, it is gcing to be the very companies which the government hopes to attract and which we hope they will be able to attract. so it is quite the most serious problemJit seems to me7 facing the government, and I caution them now and warn that we on this side will want to know what policy is gcing to be adopted by the gcvernmen~ of this Province when they sit down with the federal government in Ottawa and decide on what the new levels of pricing are going to be.

Now there is a second point with regard to these major projects once again that I would like to raise some questions about and, of course, it has to do with the oil and gas offshore exploration. I have said before and I have no hesitation in repeating,that indeed this government has to its credit a first- class approach to this matter. I am not arguing with that.

What really does puzzle me now1 particularly when I read this Speech from the Throne, and I ask these questions in a most sincere fashion because I have no idea how this is going to be handled; "With the government in ottawa 'it sa~·~ "disposed to be co-operative, we aTe going to get control of the Continental Shelf in oil and gas terms.'' Now what does that mean? In the first place let me go back aver hislory and say that I have never had any doubt tha~ the ener~"''-' - the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry) he is aware of this fact, I suspect the Premier is aware of this fac~- that the Newfoundland case in my judgment as in theirs is unique. That Newfoundland for all kinds of reasons which I know some of the colleagues, the learned colleagues 97

July 16, 1979 Tape 40 ?!< - 2 ~!r. Jamieson: of the members opposite have examined in detail, show that Newfoundland is not like the other provinces. But ·.olhat has happened in ~,is euphoria with regard to the new Prime Minister's assurance is that he has in fact said, "I am going to de it for every­ body." New the implications of that are extremely interesting in terms of how Newfoundland proceeds with its case. For example, for many years the hon. ~ister argued the uniqueness of Newfoundland's case I believe. For many years we stayed out of the discussions with the Maritime Provinces.

But as I understand it now what is proposed and it is going to be intriguing to see hew it is handled legally and the like, is that the Government of Canada, in effect, is going to acknowledge that wherever there is a continental Shelf in Canada it belongs to the province adjacent to it. That seems to be the position because it was uttered in Neva scotia, it was uttered in Prince Edward Island. But, however, • .,i thout getting embroiled in a legalistic issue in wh~ch I am sure that I would be bested by most of the lawyers in the Rouse, what does it de to judgments in places like British Columbia?

What does it de to provinces which have never made any assertion of sovereignty, but which may now say, . .,hat the heck? - Manitoba, for example, and others. Now how are we going to be held up in the Newfoundland case by an enormously complicated and involved process in which these ether provinces would be involved?

I emphasize once again, I am not arguing the basic principle of Newfoundland's uniqueness, what I do say here is, that it seems to me there is at least the danger that our uniqueness may be lost in the <euphoria of what was essentially a pOlitical commitment that was made by the present Prime Minister of Canada. I could go much deeper into that issue, but perhaps I could leave it by simply saying ~,is 1 that I do not believe that this government here in this Rouse or any Newfoundlander should fall into the 98

:July 16, 1979 Tape 40 ?!C - 3 >!r. Jamieson: trap , which is what is happening, fall into the trap of saying, that the Prime Minister of Canada is going to give Newfoundlanc the Continental Shelf. 99

July 16, l 97o Tape "'o. 41 rwr - 1 ¥~. D. JAMIESON: I do not think t.i.e Prime ~inister of Canada has the right to do that. I do not t.~ink the Parliament of canada has the right to dC that. Indeed,! realize that it is a choice of words but an ~rtant choice of words. We should not even use the word 'concede our ownership' . What we want to know on this side of the Rouse and what we hmpe the government will lay out before us,is precisely how this is going to be done. Is it going to be a mere act of parliament? AnCI if it is not, then 1~hat else is i!: going to be?

Is it going to be to have some lti.nd of an appeal to have the constitution changed to confirm our ownership~ One thing we must be sure of, Mr. Speaker, and that is and this is most important 7 that it is a non-recallable condition, that it is not something that can be handed out today and withdrawn tomorrow. A third issue with regard to these key points ~~t I have been talking about relates to the whole question of Labrador Rydro.

And I am not sure, by the way, how the Pre~~er has allocated the various responsibilities among his ministers but ifJ indeed,all of these ~which I have been referring fall within the orbit of the hon. member for e-!Ount Scio, the hon. Minister of !'.ines and Energy (Mr. r.. Barry), he is going to have a very full ?late. aut what I would like the government to do, and I believe the people of ~ewfoundland would like the government to do .. is to lay out t."'r.e various options that exists in relation to Labrador ~ydro power .

Now once again in this Speech From The Throne we see that what is beinc: uked for and what is being sought is the use of Labrador !fydro power for industrialization within Labrador . That is t:he basic theme anC. it is one that in t:er.ms of the rhetoric of a Speech From The Throne is obviously highly a-ppealing.But what concerns :ne, or what I would like to know about is, as I understand it, and I think the minister will agree with me t.'le key problem is financinq. I do not know Whether the head o t fiydro is correct or not, but I assume he is when he puts the figure rouqhly at 100

.July 16, l 'cl7" Tape NO. 4l m• - 2 ~tR. !J • J AM.IESON : somethi!N of the order of S 2. J billion. "O'" if my firs-e assumption is co=ect then the question that has to be asked is. can be raise those kinds of funds even with the t:10st generous Federal Government that one could possibility imagine without,as I understand it,having large industrial users in place' As I understand the economics of this situation you cannot go to the bond markets, you cannot even go to governlllt!!nt' s and say that you want these enormous amounts of money without them asking who is going to be utilizing the power.

So consequently it seems to me that there is an intricate, delicate matter o£ timing ·,F!r"! on which the government owes some explanation to the people of Mewfoundland. If 1 for instance, the !:.ower Churchill Development COrporation within the next six months or so comes forward and says here is the financial picture, here is ~ow it can be done, do we put the project on the shelf at that point because we do not have customers for the power? Is that one of ~,e options that the government is considering when it talks about using Labrador and the sites in Labrador for developmental purposes?

Is that a sine qua non for develooment 1 that there be industry there or at very second best 1 presumablvJ industry in Newfoundland? Another question on which I would like some answers and we would like some answers and I can assure you the people that I have spoken to would like some answers,both on the Island of N-foundland and Labrador, is really what kind of industrialization? Now we have all' · I think , come to know over these· last two or three decades that industrialization per se is not always a good thing.

In ot.,er words,you can indeed make the case that there are as many " ro~lems related to massive industrialization as,in fact,there are_to the opposite which is no industrialization at all. And consequently, what is really necessary is to ask the people of ~ewfoundland through this !fouse,as I am asking it now,what are the choices[ Will we so ahead in Labrador with the Hydro 4evelopment if there ar.;; :-:ot industrial users established? Is there some kind of a middle ground where, !or example, you can export the power at a very high market rate with adequate recall provisions? Is it a mixture

J..U.y 16' 1979 Tj!.pe 42 EC - l :·!R.. J AMI:C:SON: of til.ese til.ings::- That is t.'le sort of thing which I think is totally lacking in either the Speech from tile Throne or any P.xpla.na.tion, even within t.'le bluaprint of a year or so ago. Now, I want to revert to the blueprint for just a moment, because I described it as a worrysolll8 document and !

T:hink I ought to repeat that it is, by its own admission, concerned that if the various initiatives do not COIIIB through then we are going tc. l:le faced with a wry, very big increase in unemployment. nJ.e trend line is there showing to 1982 somath.ing like 20 per cant. When you look at, however, what is going to happen in terms of the 40,000 jobs to wnich tile nJ.rona Speec:ll refers - and incidentally 1 once again I am assuming that they are the same 40,000 1 that both of t.'lese are the saJU, that we nave n.ot magically developed 80 1 000 between Budget 1978 and Speech from tile Th.rone 1979 . What is , Mr.

Speaker, the 40,000 jobs we are looking at] - the 40,000 jo.bs that will still leave us •,o~ith 10 per cent =employment even if eve~q succeeds. Now, basically the unfortunate thing about it is this, ::hat there is no prospect,accordin.g to the blueprint, over the next five years of a substantial increase in the number of mining jobs in Newfoundland or in t.a.brador. Incised, as my good friend from Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight} will have rea.son to know, there is c.'le prospect of a decline.

So c.'le reason I called ellis document sober and logical was that it does not try to paint in that sense, =realistic figures, !:lut there is no in=ease seen by the government itself in the amount of employment in mining in tile next five ye':'rs . !Uso, in forestry it .,rejects some, I believe it is 1,600 jo.bs - ! will be forgiven if I am off by 100 or 200 nere or there - but some l, 600 jobs 1 and it calculates that l, 000 of those will be coming out of the revitalized L..inerboarci mill.

So what that essentially means is that other than througil. that particular project, the forestry sector is not goinq to be a onassive stimulator of the Newfoundland eccnoln'f. 1.02

Ju.l.y 16, 1979 Tape ~2 EC - 2 MR. JA.'of.IE.SON: We can look ae mse of ella ot:h.er headings and it is shown clearly ellae in t:h.e industrial development field, alellouqh til.ere is such e~Z~phasis placed here on natural nsources, t:h.ere are only ewe that wiehin the next five years are goinc; to mean anything really very significant to NewfoWldl.and. Now, I concede, by tile way, that after tile five year period is over the authcrs 1110ve ineo pemaps a mre optimistic kind of curve, but since the Throne Speech is based on five years, I have stayed wien that particular fic;ure.

So what does one see? - that the ewe t!lings wtu..c:b. are qoinq to be ene eccnomic qenera:tors 1 so far as I can detendne here 1 over the next five years are qoinc; to be I.ai;)rador llydro on ene one hand and the fishing industry on the other. 'those are the only two, because wisely - I alii not sure they were always as wise - but a.t least now it is Sleen that except for scme eii1Ployment, which is welcoua , oil and gas is !!Ore than five years down the road before the l!IOney starts to flow, if, Go<i willing and we all fervently pray that it does, but the two big generators on wni<;A !:his gove=ment is CDWlting are Labrador hydro power and the fishery.

I have already touched on the onrious options eD.at I see in front of the government, in front of the people of NewfoWldl.anci, and I sincerely nope that ministers will take the time to o~tline just exactly how they see these things qoing. Yo~ know, this is not ene first govel:Dlllent to talk about heavy industry and heavy industrialization and the utilization of hydro or ..,hatevar the case might be !or that purpose. And it is not the first time either that the big hopes faded.

I could spend a lot of time saying that one of my concerns flowing from azy experience is that except for oil and gas no other cartel has ever lllilllaged to l:le totally successful or even, one could almost say, remotely successful. I say that because sure, there is iron ore in Labrador, :Cut there is iron ore at many other places in the world: sure, there is uraniUIII, on ..,hich we once thought, by the way, in Canada that ..,e had a very much preferred position - we nov know that Spain and Australia amcng other countries are movinq in that direction teo.

So consequently, there is always the necessity . when one is :103

J~ly 16, 1979 Tape No. 43 NM - 1 ~. JAMIESON: talking about natural resources and Newfoundland,to bear in ~d that with the exception of oil and ~ gas I know of no other particular commodity in which our economic power is so great that we can dictate the end result of economic deve~opment in the ·~y that we would wish. That is not to be negative, I suggest,it is to be thoroughly realistic.

And I emphasize that also now, by the way, because if we are going to be ta~ng about it, and I am glad we are talking about it, year-round ports in Labrador, then we must surely. know what the economic benefits of that are going to be, what the fall- out is going to be, and whether the end result of that is, in fact,what,apart from ev~ing else,the people of the Labrador really want. Well, Mr. Speaker, I have asked a number of what I hope are sensible and reasonable questions this afternoon.

I have asked them out of two geneses, one, to remind this government that it has had a very, very poor record to date in industrial development. That is not to say there have not been successes. I am. not being blanket or anything of that. nature, but that what is being said here is, and it is ironic, I almost am t.empted to take the time but I did do the work and I want to de1110nstrat.e that, I have nine exerpts from the last nine speeches from the throne, and it was in the first one that the first reference was made to highways in Labrador.

It was in the first one that the commitment was made to reduce the level of unemployment. In short , what I am saying is, and if members are interested they are welcome to read it, that there is a despairing comparison between this documant and these other nine. So , therefore, there are 1 ! believe,good grounds for asking the government to level with the people. Now, I want to turn if I may to the whole question of constitutional reform, not in any high blown sense, 104

July 16, 1979 Tape No. 43 GH-2 :<!R. JAMIESON: not getting into the nuts and bolts,as it •.o~ere , of various esoteric sul:ljects which some of my legal friends may enjoy but which leave the rest of us at the post. What· I want to issue is, once again:a word of caution. I can appreciate to a very great extent with the emotional side of me some of the language that is in this speech from the Throne.

I can say, because the Premier himself referred to himself as a new ~ewfoundlander, I can also say to bim that I think,with some pride,that I was among those who helped to establish and to preserve a good deal of that Newfoundland heritage that we have been talking about back in the days when it was much 1110re difficult to do, I may say, than it is now; and so I take a back seat to no one in terms of my anxiety to see Newfoundland stand on its own feet, Newfoundland preserve its heritage and its culture. All of those things I sul:lscribe to. Every one of my colleagues I am sure,here, sul:lscribe to them as well.

But what worries me - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear! MR. JAMIESON: what concerns me is the excessive use, it seems to me, the excessive use of terms like 'paternalistic' in terms of federal-provincial relations, or that some way or other we ought co change and add more power to the province. Now, in my case I hope that there will be another opportunity) as was said by the House Leader or the Premier opposite for a debate, presumably on the constitutional question at some stage, because I will want to go into it in very great detail.

But in the time remaining to me today, and I do not propose, by the way: to look for extra time, let me just say this 1 that it is not, you know, 'paternalistic' in terms of fiscal transfer payments if one is speaking only of transfer payments from the Government of Ottawa to the Government of Newfoundland. I reject the idea that that is 'paternalism'. I believe that that is basic to the whole concept of Canada, that it is a formula for sharing which was w~sely devised. It may have its loopholes. It may have places where it can be changed, but I do not look at it as any kind of a handout. It 105

July 15, 1979 Tape No. 43 GH-3 MR. JA.."'IESON: seems to me that we brought into Confederation an enormous number of assets. We have made a great contribution to Confederation j_06

Jl..lly 16, b79 Tape :-lo. olt4 so - l :o!R. u. JAHIESON: <lllli, therefore, the con.feueracy . if that is .:o can outmoded word these days, surely owes it to all parts of the country to ensure that its .;?eopls are trea~ed. with a reasonable degreo~ of evenness. And I would hope that it is not this Goverzzent's ir.tention or tnouqnt that we would mcve towarci a s:~.t:u:iotion in wnic.b. we would consider federal transfer payments as :Ceing in soma way or other o.brloxious, ab."lorrent or in any way anything o tiler t:.~ a logical way of having a.n evening out of distribution of Canadian wealth.

Now, I und.erstand,of course 1 that if •.re, as I said I .believe on Thursclay, were suddenly to have these resources converted. into a surplus situation for us . t:llen it woo..J..... be fine. But even then 1 I would ~que that if there was a. have-nol: J:lrovince tn.&t t:.'le.re sbould be soma foCII of equaliz<&tion maintained. So, in tilose teJ:mS, while t.b.is is terribly <lull stuff, I must pul: it: on t:ha recora., I must make it: clear t:o cl!.i$ Government that: there is a ~eal danger hera if wa do not go ~1..1t tnis .tne right: way.

I do nat, for illsta.nca,eit:har,reqard it as either paternalistic or in any sensa a hanaout t:."lat the old peop.l.e of i~awfouncji<&nd., that the fami.l.ies of Newfound.Lulcl get t:.'la scu. kind of social benetir.s such as pensionsand fami.l.y a.l.lowances as other Canadians. It: seems to me to suggest that tha.t is handguts is also ridiculous and. I am llot sure a.l.togetner that that is wilat tile Government was striking at.

Where, I suppose, tne argument comes in, is wnen,as the Speech from the ThrOne says,we are talkin•j about unemp.l.oymene. insurance as an alternative 1:0 work anci where we are talking <Ulout while. I descri-bed i1ere as make work schemes • .;;;.l.l, you knew, it: is an easy mat tar if the Government of C:anacia wane.s to get rid of make work schames in t.ne manner mal: is outlined here then, of course, thay can double or trii)le t:he amount of money t:.~t they make available for the kinds of projects referred 107

Ju.i.y l ci, 19 79 Tape 110. 44 ;;u - 2 :·1«. u.

Jd.:-IIESON : to by my colleague from Trinity ~lorth (1-tr. c. a:rett) • In othe:r warcis, it is s;t:rictly a ma.tte:r of how those funds a.r<! ..ctually il;ulcied. out or distrii:luted. aut the .ba.oic point is that the only really serious problem that I s;ee wnera this patcrna.llsm,as it nas been cies=i.beci,may be effecuve,is wilat it is doing on the unemployment front; ::hat if that 11nemployment part of the equation coulil be removed. than I see nothing fundamentally wrong with SOllie of the so-called paternalistic measures, ind.eeci, qui ta the contra:ry • I bellew that much of the heritage and cultural ciaval.opment that we have sean in NewfoWld.land. in the last twenty years or so and to which the Tnrone Speech refers 7 ila.s cOllie about bacallSe, in fact, we have b-n assisted in one way or another through various national agencies and through the ability of our young people to travel 1:0 other ;:>arts of Canada. to have other Canadians come to see llS. aut these are now getting to be matters that perna.ps are net really ilnportan': !:a ta.~ a.bout as of this 1110ment.

I want t:a, i!Qwever, i::efore aLY time expires mantion something a.bout fisherias. Because, as I saici 1 and the two milU&ters are now pr<!:;,mt' on whose shoulders rest ninety percent of the econcau.c <1eva.Lopmem:. strategy of t;.his Gove:rnmant for the :aext five years or so.

It must l:e an awescme s.ense of res;?Onsi.bility to realize that, as I oellave they nave aqreeci, if we can rv;)t c;at the Lower C.'"lurcnill and Labrador hydro c;oing rapidly, if our hopes and our aspirations for fisneries ~o not cievelop in the way we want to see them cievel.op in the next five years, then the rest of that blueprint is out the wincicw. It really is ~uita an insignificant and unimportant ciocument but for those two elements.

Now, whatever ~~e issue on constitutionality may be witD. reqarci to oil and gas, I confess still to be pu=leci as to just wilat it:. is tiJ.at the Government of Newfoundland. 1.08

,;u.l.y l o, l~H TaEte Z\o. 44 ;,u - 3 wanb l:ly way of a<idit.iana.l contl:ol or ~ltat.ian OJ: whatever tha case llli.qn.t be. And, o.f c=se, thAt p~:oolem, on my put, has been ccmpowuied. in ~:ec~U~.t weeks by t:be number of ~s ~ la.nqliaqe uteJ:ations t.'".eJ:e il.lva been since our f=mar co1lea.;ue in the lfousa of CQIIIIIICI~ a.t Ottawa, ~Jr. ~atil, ilas b~oma M,iJU.ster af Fishe.t'ioas. · 'Na !:lave qone from jurisdictional t:ransfer to coJJSU.ltation tQ a. mixture of eot.il, it is a very, very confuseci llitllat.ian. ~ow, Lest there be ony doUbts on t,he 1114t:ter, Mr.

Speaker, I want to make ~:.ne position of this party very cleaz. Anci tbat is, th&t iA&OfU as t:baJie lll4tters a.re concemed it is tbe fisa•rman ...mo come fi=st, tila.t is, tbe fisheD!Iln tllemselves and. the plant wor.kars aliA the vari.Qu$ peo~le lodlo are involved in the fishinq j nduat;:y. ADd I believe that tQis GQvernaant liii.ISt take very muon tQ i1eart a.ny admaiU.tioas or arq advice that it gets from. that particular sector. 109

July 16,1979 Tape No. 45 AH-l ~R. JAMIESON: I say that because I am not sure,I repeat,what consultation ~eans. But I would believe,once a~ain with a.~y learned in the law gentlemen ~o~ho are present here, that consultation has within it some kind of implication that there will ultilllataly be aqreement. Nov I am not at all certain, I am not at all certain that Newfoundland's · best interes ·ts are served and I commend ~~s to the hen. Minister of Fish~ries, that it is best served by,in a sense,five ministers from Eastern Ca~ada trying to divy up the pie.

I suggest that regardless of how much good intent there t11ay be in t.'tat 1 when it comes to quotas and the like what you are going to find is a situation in which you will have five unhappy ministers and you will p~bably also have five unhappy fishing constituencies in the provinces concerned. So, therefore, as a cautionary note let me say that this government should move very slowly before it decides that it is going to get into any kind of a consultative a.rrl!lllgement that has leqal, binding parts in it.

And in the lonc;r r1m, I suspect that prudence may very well dictate that some central, federal authority is best suited to the job of allocation, after,of course 7 hea.ring the various representation. But t.'le dec;rree to which you move into lockinq yourself into sayinq we are going to agree on this is very, very serious.

Now, for my own part and that of this party, and my colleague frcm Trinity North (Mr.Brett) will undoubtedly be making a long speech on this subject at the appropriate time, on various aspects of fisheries, for my own !:'art I believe by and larqe that the matter should not be settled between the lawyers and the constitutionalists, tilat that is th6 "'I.r!lt kind of an arrangement that could possil:::ily be dreamed up.And that t7hat has to be done is that whatever process is introduced av:::! io.itiated, whether it be by the provincial government or the federal governmen~, that the fish plant operators, the fishermen, the various people who speak for them all must be part of that process and, in fact~ should be, in my juqqement, the predominate part of the process.

There is one other I would 110

July 16,1979 Tape No. 45 AH-2 .'IR. JAMIESON: think almos~ essen~ial ~lement and that is. of course .• that the federal government for its p~ acknowledqe . which the provinces will never do, the other Atlantic provinces, that there are historic fisheries in Newfoundland, there are historic fishinq patterns in Newfoundland and that must be fundaiDental to any approach that we take into these kinds of neqotiations.

And that I believe is so essential that I would recommend most stronqly to the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.W.Carterl and to govemment members oppoaite that they talce ~at care with any kind of offer that is I!Ulde by Ottawa that does not insure that that historic principle is sustained and main tiU.nad.

I do not think we will have any quarrels or any arquaents, by the way, between the two parties on basic fishery strateqy . a.ut there is one other thinq I want to say about it . because it is aqain referred to in the Speech From '11\e Throne, .:.nd I want to emphasize it because here,if you will recall what I said about realism,it is important that members understand wnat they are up aqainst and it is this;; I:. 'his doCUIIIIt!"t speaks of fisheries development with dcwnstream and upstream benefits and I am assuminq from that. because there is enouqh wordinq there to make it clear, tr.at the dcwnstream benefits mean that we are goinq to get further processinq value added, ~hat we are not goinq to ~ort t.'l.e fish in its rawest fonn or in its simplest fo:nn.

Indeed 1 when we 90 back to the blueprint and look at the fisheries job 1 it is clear that it is in the secondary part of the industrv that it is anticipated the larqer number of jobs is goinq to come. Now let me deal then with dcwnstream first of all and tell you what some of the problems are just in case you do not lrnow. I thouqht for years, like I suspect seventy­ five per cent of Newfoundlanders still think , that the main reason why we do not have more reprocessinq of fish products in Newfoundland is tariffs.

I was for the lonqest time under that simplistic kind of assumption that if th~re were no tariffs on processed ill

July lt".l97<? Tape No. 45 1\10-3 goods going into tne United States ill p;~;,:ticular, that that woul,d IDe i t 7 t::nat we would bread all the cOdfish, that we w0l1Ld tin it, that we would process it, we would dQ it all withi.n Sevfo.mdland. '1l believe the Minuter of P'ishertes ,. (HZ'. Carter~ nCiw knows , as t kziow, that i:n fact the way the !i.Shuy has evolved makes it extre~~~ely doubtful that even with tarif.f redUctions - and I believe ehese are goi.nq to COllie - it makes it extremely doubtflll that ;tltere will be any dra~~~atic move into value acldeQ or I!¥1:Z'a proeas•inCJ for this reason, that - are, in tems of the biq three or four: 112

July 16, 1979 Tape 46 ~r . Jamieson: locked into arrangements whereby already Nickerson,National Sea, Fishery Products, and various other companies either have reprocessing and upgrading facilities of enor.mcus cost already in the Onited States or they have contracts with other reprocesscrs in the United States. The second point is that as we move into the ::uropean market -and I believe we will by the way. I have very P!< - 1 few qualms about what is going tc happen there . I think the market looks very good - but as we move in there we must have the most rigid regulations . Why?

Because there is throughout all of Western Europe, the whole of the European community, there is such a surplus, as the hon. minister probably knows, of processing facilities right new that the last thing they want is processed fish from Newfoundland. What they are locking to us for is raw material, Mr. Speaker. What they are seeking is something that will give employment in the those facilities which have been tremendously expanded, and which are suffering now as a result of the down-t:urn in the fish stocks. so what does this mean?

It means that if the government is serious about the downstream benefits,as they are ea11ed, then it must bite the bullet, it must decide that it is going to pass the necessary legislation that will prohibit, in fact, these materials from going out of Newfoundland unless they have reached a certain stage of development. I will tell you frankly I have no idea how successful that kind of activity would be. It may be that it is quite impossible,given the structure of the industry , and we can only hope to do it on any expansion when things start to move into new species, into new kinds of development.

But I repeat once again that it is a dangerous assumption that we are going to in some way or other,by either incentives or anything less than the rule of law,change dramatically the nature of the fish products going out of Newfoundland at the present time. Oh, we will have some. We will have a certain amount. And I think already some has taken place, but 6,000 jobs worth, let us say, 113

July 16, 1979 Tape 46 PK - 2 ~lr. Jamieson: is a lot more than will happen by ~hat particular process. It is going to take something else. I ask the government to let us know what that something else is. Incid~tially1 no one is arguing with them. I would be quite prepared to be supportive of logical legislation in that regard. Now,let me turn to upstream, because here once again it is important I think to be realistic. Only this morning one of the principal people in the fishing industry in Newfoundland talked about the cost of replenishing the fishing fleet. Last week the ~edera1 Minister of Fisheries (Hen.

James McGrath) for whom,I emphasize after many years in Ottawa,I have the highest regard,that he was not contemplating any bail-out of the East Coast industry in terms of federal assistance. ae talked about a mortgage plan, and that may have some merit.

But the interesting, the most important point to remember in this context of this Speech from the Throne and the jobs we are expecting. is that if we are glling to buij,d trawlers in Newfoundland we are going to have to Pl,lt substantial amounts of public monies into it or the alternative is to tell the fishing industry that they are going to have to pay much more for their ships, have them built in Newfoundland, otherwise they will not get their quotas. I say that because as the hen. !louse will know and probably the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Carter) may have already looked through this, t.hat there is scarcely a yard in the world .today that is not more competitive ~~n our yards in Canada in terms of building trawlers. And not just a few dollars different. I am talking about Japan where,because of their structure they can build trawlers for: I will not say an insignificant portion; Lut for a very, very lliUCh less amount of money. so what does that mean?

It means: I repeat. either you say to the fisheries producers, You are going to get ~hose boats built in Newfoundland or you are not going to get the licenses and you are going to pay the extra cost.or you say to the federal government, You must increase your subsidy programme or your mortgage programme or something of that sort. Otherwise, I emphasize, that the upstream benefits do not exist. They literally do not exist. We cannot in any way compete. And 114

July 16 , 1979 Ta pe 46 m-3 MR. JA"'IESON: by the way, let us not either forqet that since we are dealing with multination.al. col!!Panies here in the fishery, that it is reasonable to egpect that the yards in St. John, New Brunswick and those in Ballfax as well ~s those. in Newfoundland and elsewhere are all going to ce competing for the same kind of business.

So consequen~y1 in both of those cases mine is not a message of pessimism, mine is a message on the fishery of trl!lllandous challenge and an urc;ing that ali of the$e thinqs be laid out on the table so that people will know what it is we a'l:e talking about. The 'bigqest di.fficulty in Newfoundland today, the most terrible problem is the way we escalate expectations ~ with the Blue Beach business and so on and then find that in some way or other: for some reason over which we have no control sometimes, the whole thine; collapses and we do not go where we think we are qoinq to go.

And that is what is deadening to the SPirit. That is the kind of thine; that the Premier wants to avoid and I aqree 'With him, we should avoid. But you do not avoid it by sayinc; in speculative t~ iike this, that in fact you have a situation where you can expect so called QPStream and dowDstream benefits without reccqnizinq those very real i.nlpediments to which I have referred. In just the few minutes that I hope the House will 115

..July lc, l9i9 Tape 47 :::c - 1 !1R. ..J?...'\IESOt~: permit me, I wane ~o say a very brief word about how I comprehend the government's dilemma on financial matters. And I will not go into this in detail because of the Sudqet Speech which is eo come, but onca again, the blueprint tell$ the story. The blueprint puts the quandry . eo us in ~ewfoundland in very real eerms, which dces not have eo be said arqumantatively at all. I talked about half the government's direct revenue coming from fiscal transfer ;?ayments.

Of ene remaining SO per cent of all of the liiCney which tile government took in, at least as late as 1978, they had no ciloice given the structure of t."l.e syst8111 but to take it out of t."le hides of the Newfoundland people. That was the situation.

Now whcever is responsible for it, whether it is historic as the Speech from the Throne says or whether it is shcrt-sightednass or whether it is lack of creativity on that side of tile liouse, thase are matters whic:ll are incidental to the point I am ma.kinq at the present time. 'l'h.e t--uth. of the matter is that, of course, what has happened is that we have cecome on the one hand dependent for this very large amgunt of liiCney from Ottawa, 47 per cant, 49 per cent, SO pe:.; cent, people will a.rqua about it. 'l'h.en we have the retail sales tax which is insidious: we nave personal income taxes, and when yo1.1 get dawn there is such a small. part of the pie you can scarcely find it, I believe, 2.2 per cent or 2.3 per cent corporation tax.

Now it will be a real test of this governmant's ingenuity eo fi;nd out wnetiler indeed, its dedicated declaration here about getting 110re out of the extractive industries can indeed be brought to bear. We all know what the situation is. If you look at it once again, for the next five years, I repeat, are we going 1::.0 be able to take very much liiCre out of the fish companies?

Are we going eo be able to take very much l!Cre out of the mining companies? 'l'h.ose are the two big generators in t."le resource field, because even in the case of hydro in J t.abrador, t."lat five year phase is going to be.,l:ly the declaration of the blueprint, a construction phase, so consequently, there is tlOt going to i:>e much there. So wilat are the government goinq to do to increase ti!.at what Cligilt be described as economic rental? That is an intriguing question and I know that it must be one over which t.'le government is labouring very hard at t."le present time.

But I could not agree more that .in fact 1 there is a 11.6

.;.u,y 16' l9i9 Tape 47 EC - 2 :.tR. .JAo'!IESON sc;mdalollli, a ':.ot:ally scancialcus imbalance in the way in which t:..'1e Newfounciland Government generates its revenue. I said a lll)mant. ago, oy tha way, that it has .been t:.a.kinq it out of t:..i}e nicles of the Newfound.lanci people.

I coulcl also say, inciclentally, only half facetiously, that it is also taking it out of their livers anci their kidneys, l:lecause when a Bucige-c has to say t.'l.at: it is going t:o insauc-c the Newfounciland Liquor Co!lllllission or whatever its offic.i.al name is, to go cut: anci raise !!lOre :-evenue whan it: is seen as being a significant con"t:ril:lutor to the revenues of this Province, t.'len there is somethinq seriously ou"t: of whack. hlld if I can !oecoma also philosophical for a !DOmen-c - and God knows, t am no prude - I ti1ink that second part of this doClllllent, which is al!DOst lyrical - and t co~d the author of it - that that has a bearing on that other matter that I just referred to, that if we are in the process now of saying that all we have left to squeeze aqain is,in a sense,the Liquor Commission and that is going to be the oasic point, wbera it is growinq - that: seems to l:le the only one - then it is a sorry day for u.s in !:!lis Province anci we cuqh-c to be pretty well ashamed of ourselves that it. has .;ouch a. larqe part to t~lay• I do not 117

July 16, 1979 Tape No. 48 GH-1 1·!R. JAl\iiESON: say that, believe me, in any evangelical sense, I do not say it and even in any critical sense of the government, it is said in a way of understanding what the problem is. By the way, 'without anticipating the bu4get debate, the remarkable, remarkable part of this document here is, of course, that even maintaining present tax rates is going to mean a very significant increase in the cost of living for the average New~oundlander.

Because if predictions that we have seen are correct and I have no reason to doubt them and certainly no major economist in the world has seen any reason to doubt them. we are not going to see any rapid decline. If anything, we are going to see a continuing increase in the amount of inflation and that, I suppose, ultimately is my main criticism, my main concern about this document.

This government has shown itself to be future oriented, and as a friend of mine used to say and I guess it is appropriate in the circumstances and it is meant quite jokingly that 'so and so had his mind so fixed on heaven that he was no earthly good'.

And this is a case where I hope the government does not have not its mind so fixed on the future, so desirous of saying that 'five years from now, boys, things are going to be a heck of a lot better', that I hope it does not have itself so committed to that kind of strategy that it will not come Thursday, take it still further out of the hides of the Newfoundland people, that it will not shpw itself as being unconcerned about the highest unemployment - SOME !iON. MEMBERS: !iear, hear! MR.

JAMIESON: - that it will not allow the present scheme of things to continue with regard to the high cost of living and, above everything else, that it will shew itself as being sympathetic, tremendcusly sympathetic on the question of energy pricing in this province. You know,when one thinks about one final thing on which the Speech from the Throne dwells, and which that other nine did as well, about rural Newfoundland, one has to understand that it is no longer in large part the rural Newfoundland we used to know.

Rural Newfoundland now is, of course, something quite different in the sense that there is an enormous amount of mobility in the work force and 1.:18

_;uly 16, 1979 Tape ~o. 48 GH-2 :1R. JA.'IIESON: the like. Most of us who come from out-of-town constituencies know that. I do not suppose there is scarcely a living soul who actually works in the village, for instance, in which I live, and so, therefore, what is going to happen if we start getting into world prices at current high rates,by the way,of sales tax which the provincial government is applying and which are the highes~ in Canada: Now these are the things which are going to face the people.

These are the things that they are going to be worrying about in the weeks and the months ahead and I do not ~~,with all due respect,that as much as we can be enthused about what is contained in here as a blueprint, to repeat the words of the Budget or a concept of the future, I do not believe it is going to be enough. I am concerned genuinely that we will find that beginning with the here and the now there will be a malaise of concern that will grow unless those people who are so desperately in trouble now, and there are many of them, do not get some kind of reassurance that matters are not going to get worse.

That, I think, is the challenge tha~ faces the governmept. I have, I must say and must repeat, no quarrel and a good deal of enthusiasm for the general tenor of what is envisaged here, because I do believe that there is within Newfoundlanders that kind of hope for the future1 but to keep it alive you must deal with not only where they are going to find themselves in five years time but a lot of people you must deal with where they are going to find themselves in five weeks or five months time.

And that, I hope, is some of the material that will be laid before us so that we can see movement on hydro, so that we can see movement on these other matters to which I have referred, that we can have some conception that the government knows where it is going across this broad front of issues and that it is not just a system of ad hockery. You know one thing I have learned is that however slow you think things are going to move in government, you are never really too pessimistic about it.

Federal-provincial conferences, hopes for negotiations with Ottawa, no matter how pally the arrangement, no matter how good it is, are going to take time, so let us not expect 119

Jul~· 16, 1979 Tape No. 48 GH-3 MR. JAMIESON: that we can all twiddle our thumbs while the hon. members opposite go up in perhaps, I hope not but perhaps, a vain and futile effort to change the 120

July 16,1979 Tape ~o. 49 ,>,H-1 ~!f~: the whole course of Confecara~ion. Mr. Speaker, I ~ave covered a good deal during this eighty-five minutes but clearly there is much more to be said. My collea.ques also will be commenting upon same of these matters. I trust t.'l.at what I have said is taken in the spirit in which it is meant, that is constructive and I would like to know the answers as I am sure rrry colleagues will. No doubt we will . have the chance to debate them more fully as tilDe goes on. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER:(Simmsl Enerqy. MR.BARRY: Thank you. Hear. hear~ !fOil Minis~er of Mines and Mr.

Speaker, lt has been a llllost four years since I have had the honour of speaking in this hon. House. Before 11\aking rrry few remarks today I would like to congratulate yourself on your appointment. I am sure that you 'will live up to the distinguished predecessors who have qone before you. I would also like to thank the voters of l'!ount Scio district for making it possible for me to address the House and tc play a role in the future course of our Province. I would like to welcalle all the members of this h. on.

House, as a matter of fact, to the district of Mount Scio and ask you to keep in mind that you are now presently residinq in the disf".ri-,<: and if there is anything I can do as the member for that district I <~ill try and fulfill my mandate. I would like to thank the Premier for the tremendous responsibility that he has ,as the Leader of the Opposition has mentioned, given tc me in tezms of resource development, the Departlllents of Mines and Ener1!1Y and in terms of development,~enerally,in the Oepart=ent of Industrial Development. I must ·say that I was intrigued by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

It is a new strat89Y that the Leader of tne Opposition took upon himself today, Mr. Speaker, a strateqy I haVP. nc.t seen before and I have to co111111end him. We saw an Address In Reply to the Budget Speech of 1978 instead 121.

July 16,19i9 Tape No. 49 AH-2 !'IR. BARRY: of to the Throne Speech of 1979.I have to say wi~~ respect that the blueprint that the Leader of the Opposition kept referring to is not really in all fairness, the matter that we an debating here today. We are debating, Mr. Speaker, what I consider to be an excellent Throne Speech • The 'nlrone Speech of a new goverrunent. And here I have to draw issue again with the Leader of the Opposition where he .again, I think, vary clewrly, a very interesting strateqy, stressed several times that this was not a new qovernment. ~ell, Mr.

Speaker, I have to aslt when you have a naw Premier, a new leader of the party on this side of the Bouse, when you have - how many new members? - close to half? - Is that .fair? - of the -mbers of this side of the House beinq new IIIUibe:r:s when you hw a caQinet wtuc:ll aqain, I l::lelieve, has almost half, fifty per cent new members since the present Premier came into office, now I have to ask if that is not a new government then what is? S~ BON. !-!EMBERS: !'!ear, hear! MR. BARRY: • Mr.

Speaker, not only do we have a new qovernment, we have new policies which are set out in the Throne Speech and we nave a new approach, I believe, to the very presentation of a 'nlrone Speech in that instoad of the past series of shoppinq lists - and anybody who wants to go back and see and not just in the last nine years, I suppose if we go back to Confederation we will see that the trend has been the same thing, to list 122

July 16, 1~79 Tape 50 M. BARRY: out in the Throne Speech JUSt a.bou~ every possil:lle, conceivable, good thing that :night beiall -:: . .'1e ?rovince in the coming year. To set that out - I suppose I can see the t:.'leory behind tl1is that t:.'le presentation of the Throne Speech is a time for instilling a new optimism,for getting your population concerned, for reaffi%llling t.'le commitment of your government, t:c bring about all these good things if it possil:lly can: But, this year, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that we have a new approach. 'I'he Throne Speech instead of being a shopping list is a very clear statement of philosphy, of the philosophy of this Government, of the Premier and of this Government, as to how the approacb. t:c meeting the pro.blems of this Province should proceed. But it is not just IDBrely a general statement of philosophy1 it is also replete with specific recitations of how this philosophy is going to be put into prae1:ice; now it is going to be implemented, how it is going to be used t:c deal with the pro.blems that are facing this Province. Not just the pro.blems, Mr.

Speaker, but how it will be used to grasp the potential that exists for this Province. I thinlt the I.eader of tile Opposition - I have to collllll8lld him on his Address in Raply. I have to say that i1e struck, I believe, the main issues and his statements were fair, bu~ with respect I have to suggest that he did not go far 2nouqi1. 'I'he Throne Speec.'l. contains three areas where this Government is committed to action.

These a.re on a political, an economic, and a social front. ~ow, with respect to the political front we have a clear, unequivocal commitment by this Government that there will be a new Elections Act brought in to publicly finance elections, t:o remove lii!II!Oers of Government on both sides of the House from the pressures that result from the present system where, I suppose we all had t:c do it, go out and scravel for a few dollars t:c t:y t:c put together an organization, to qat a few workers to help us in our campaign t:c try t:c obtain the honour of addressing yourself, ~r. Speaker, in his hon. House.

Now, that msans that you have to rely on commitments, on donations, from private individuals. And in the past in this Province I suspect, 123

.;uly lo, 1979 Tape 50 R'l'-2 ~!R. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, all too often reliances has had. to be on a very few influential businesses who ended up having, af':er tbe election, too great a degree of influence as far as members of this !io~e ware concerned. And aqai.Do I speak of members on both sides of the Bouse - MR. NEARY: (!naudible) Public Works. MR. !IAR!U: - ana the amber for Lai'oile (Mr. Neary) , I am sure, h.as not been one to turn down the occasional donation that may have passed his tracks in the course of an. election campaign. MR. NEAll%: (inaudible) lUI.. BARIU': Mr.

Speaker, the member for t.aroile souqil.t election, went out, sought donations, and I 111ust say that in the course of seeking his donations I have understood that certai.Do approaches were macla to those in southern climas. I am not sure if that is correct, or not, but such has been said. I ..,ill say no II'Dre. But the hon. member for La2oile - I think ..,e should start off on a new track because, Mr. Speaker, the new P-remier of tlu.s Province, tbe new Leader of this ?arty and this Government owes nothing to noDody except to the elecU)rate of this Province. SOME !!ON. ~ERS: !lear, hear~ MR.

BARIU': We are not here as the lliOUthpieces for large donators to political campaigns; wa are here to do a job for the people of this Province. SOME !!ON • MEMBERS: aear, hear! 124

June 16, 1979 Tape 51 !B-1 MR. BMRY: Time will see us fulfill that mandate, Mr. Speaker. we are committed to bringing in policies, we are committed to taking action that will benefit all of the people of this Province and not just a few people who have in the past 1 because of the poor methods of financing elections, been able to obtain an undue deqree of influence in this House. This qovernment will bring in a new election act. Now that, Mr. Speaker, I 'NCuld submit,with all due respect to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) 1 is not an insiqnificant item.

The Leader of the Opposition suggested that apart from suggested developments with respect to hydro and the fisheries that all other items are insignificant. I would submit that the people of this Province consider that to be a highly significant development in the political history of this ?rovince. In addition, in the area of political reform the Throne Speech says that this government is committed to a reform of the rules of this hen. House and with the co-operation of the hen. members opposite, of the Leader of the Opposition, the opposition House Leader (Mr.

Roberts) and of the members opposite we will see this reform proceed quite shortly. AN HON. MEMBER: Tomorrow. MR. BAR:RY: on the morrow? Did I hear on the morrow? on the morrow, Mr . Speaker, we will see a new day dawn for this Hous& of Assembly where we will have an effective aouse of Assembly, a House of Assembly that will proceed with, I think, what has, at least until I stood up today, been a reasonable tone of debate. ~ NEARY: Why tomorrow? MR. BARRY: And until the member for LaPoile (Mr . Neary) started I think.

The hon. member has to go on record again as being the first member to interrupt another member while he was speaking. SOME !iON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! !-IR. BMRY : I just wanted to Underline that for history. I have to say that I enjoy the hen . member ' s interruptions. MR. NEARY: Oh, thank you . 125

;u .. June 16, 1979 Tape 51 IB-2 ~- BARRY: I missed him for four years. I missed him. But we are still sitting across from each other, Mr. Speaker, so I am sure we will have the occasional give and take during this session. Apart from the area of political reform, just to move on to the economic front, the Throne Speech sets out a five year plan. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech is not the place for setting out in detail every item of this five year plan. This will be done. The hen. Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) will be taking significant steps in this direction I am sure on this Thursday when we see his budget.We will be in the course of this session, Mr. Speaker, bringing down and putting further flesh on the outlines of this five year plan that has been set out in the Speech From The Throne. But we have again a clear, unequivocal commitment by the Premier, by this government, that we are dedicated .. to the creation of at least 40,000 new jobs in t~e next five years, not an insignificant item, Mr. Speaker, not an insignificant item. Now, how is this to be done?. Well, the hon. Leader of the Opposition(Mr.

Jamieson) has mentioned two of the ways but only two and there is a third. ee has mentioned that hydro and fisheries development are very important levers for the creation of these new jobs. That is absolutely correct as I will mention in a moment. But.also~I believe he has not given due deference to the potential that the offshore gas and oil industry has in the exploration stage because there are S250 million, Mr. Speaker, being spent this year in exploring for oil and gas off this coast.

This is a very important season but I submit that even if - and let us hope it is not - but even if this season were a total washout, we can reasonably expect to see exploration continue for four or five, maybe ten years. There is a tremendously large area off. our coast. While that exploration is continuaing, because of the oil and gas regulations we have in place,there will be considerable millions of dollars being spent in this Province for the creation of jobs, for the develop~nt 126

Jul.i l~.~, i'iJ7:J of research an~ development right here in this Province.

New, i£ you just look at the num.Der of Newfoundlanders wile are e~~.ployed en the ships and the rigs that a.:ra drilling off our cease ami will be drilling, we will have in excess of 500 people employed in the offzhore oil a.nci gas indusb:'y this year ami I think it is pushing close :o 700 in :Otal, These are people wile are d.irectl1 involved in the i.cdustry .apart from that we have indirect spinoff and yc1.1 can see it uounci you now. 'lou only have :o go down around the waterfront, you only have to speak :o the ship's chandlers, the people wno are supplying food, the people wbo are supplying ether materials to these ships a..Jld to these oil rigs.

This exploration ac~vity, whether or IlOt there is a. c01111118rcial di.sccvexy, wJ.ll have a. siqnific:ant impact upon esaployment in this .... Province. So we have hydro, 1:.'le fisheries • and offshore oil ami gas exploration as beinq the three pr~ areas - there ara other areas but. the three primary areas where we can expect to see significant employment opportunities for our people in the next five years. Now let us look a mcment at each of these.

Witi:l respect to hydro, it is not just a. matter o£ getting a. nydro site :!eveloped so that we can have the construction jobs during the fowr or five years it tal;.es to build. the project. We are proceeding on the basis that we want to see hydro developments that will supply power to this Province, net for export, but :0 t:his Province for l:lle creation of further industry. It is like narnessing Clillicns of horses to get out a.m. do work for us as we all know. We use tne t:erm 'horsepower'. What does it mean?

The power of a norse. liow many r.U.ll.io.as of 1lcrsepower will ···a t-.ave -..orking for us? l•la.chines snould work, men should think. Well, like most other clicnes that is only .. partly co=ect. I think it is good a..cQ heal tny, and I think ;•lao l'se-eung, if I Clight take some .risks with any <ICC&.rthyites t.'lat are floating around - Mao Tse-tung was not completely wrong when he sc~.id it was good for everybody whet!:.er it be the office worker, the government minister, ar.d '~· Speaker, yourself, I would have to include as well, there is 1.27

J"' ly lc, 1979 .·!R. r.. 3~: nct:iling ·.orang witt1 ,.ect.ing out and getting to work with :fOur ilQilcis anci getting into ~e re.:1l clean dirt of the indl15trial workplace. It is <;ooci for tile soul to get ou.t and get you.r hanWI i:lack to the soil. 3u.t generaJ.ly we nave to re<:ognize tnat this potential for job creation that. is .inaerant in the supply of elec:trici ty is aucia.lly important for 115 to keep front and foremost in ou.r lllincla • that we will not be builciinq hydro sites just for the construction. jobs, we will be building them because electricity is tile verJ lifaillood of this Province.

Just from tile very fact that we will n~ve electricity available, there will be industry flow to this P:z::ovince as a. resu.lt. aut. the han. Leader of the Opposition suggesu, before we get a. ~aliar i1ydro development we are going to have t:e be a.ble to coumit tnis power to new industry to loc:a.te in the Province. ~. J.iU-ll:ESON: I am quoting you. ~JR. L. BA.l'Ucr : The r.eacer of the Opposition says ne is qwting me. It 1111151: 11ave been a. bd.d day !;Oat I hac, ..!r. Speaker, or else . it was only part of the quote because I i1ave to say - ;-Ia. JAMIESON: I honestly ao not wa10t to misquote.

I am thin!U.nq ba.ck to earlier conversa.tiuns we had in wilich it: was concecied., and I thinA the hon. member was the man wbo said it, that one ilcl.d to ilave a major industrial user in order to nave all of these things haJ:>pen. That was the context in which I was u.sinq it. 1·lR. L. BARil:!: •·lr.

SJi>e~er, it would surely make it a lot: easier, but again we nave to reco'inize tha.; :.f we nave a major industrial user, that. is a cOIIIIIlitment or a aedicativn of a. certain amount of electricity to that industry which is then nat available co domestic users or to otner :illlilll industry that tniqnt wane to come in. So it cuts iloth ways. aut at the i?rasant Cime, i•lr. ~peaker, from tile infomation that I nave received, if the Province were to go witn tile :1uskrat Falls site as tile first devel~~~nt instead of the Gull Island site - Muskrat Falls ilas a 12S

July 16,1979 Tape No. 53 AH-l :-!R. 3ARRY: potential of 600 megawatts and Gull Island has a potential of 1700 megawatts. So Muskrat is approximately one third the size, a little more than one third the size of Gull Islanc - that by the time that power cilllll! on strei!ID it could be taken up completely by the needs of the existing domestic and industrial users in this Province. And the only question is whether the financial cOIIIPI'IOJti.ty •..rculd be prepared to accept th.e fact that that 1114rltet exists. It is tne people of the Province.

But ultimately, it is th.e people of the Province Who are going to bear the underlying guarantee or the financial: viability of the project. 'But the approach that has been taken - and this was while I was out of government, but there were indications that this was the '<fay it would be proceeded with,and it was while the Leader of the Opposition was in the gove.r:m~~ent in Ottawa, there was a move towards an arrangement wnereby the financial crediliili ty of the project would be enhanced through the participation ~f the federal 9'0-:mment. Now, Mr.

Speaker 1 I do not nave the facts and· figures finally in before me yet and it will be, as I understand 1 s0111etime around the end of the year o~ early in the new year before we have seen the final recommendations of the offir.ials who are presently intensely involved in studying how the Lower Churchill DeveloPment Corporation 1 the LCDC should proceed , but it is my impression that really all we need is the commitment of the federal qove:rmnent that they are behinr;J, us, behind this project.

And again, not in a sense of criticism,but I have to point out an area where I felt some disappointment on the part of the previews c;ove:mment in Ottawa, when "'e went for commitment by the federal government after several years we received backing to the extent, they said, "Yes, we believe that it is eccnomically and technaloqically viable •. "However, ' it was said , "we .!.re only prepared to back it finanCially to the extent of $300 million. ' That "'as just too s111411 a commitment in order to permit the project to fly. So what we have to look forJ and a~ain, Mr.

Speaker, I ask hon. members to bear with me in that I 129

J'uly 16,1979 Tape No. 53 AH-2 !'!R. !!AP..RY: minister in a department before the final figures are in before me, but I will be surprised, I will have to say I will be surprised, if anythinc; more ia needed than a sufficient COIIIIIIit:llent by the federal gove~~t to stand behind the project. MR. ROBERTS: What was the (inaudible)? !om.. BARRY: Now, I am not prepared to say that that is necessarily a 100 per cent guarantee. And for the life of me I have to ask if we are goinc; to the financial markets for our own borrowinc;s every year and if they have been prepared to loan the people of this Province S2 billion in total one way or another up to now, why would they not be prepared,