Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 14 (26th Legislature, 3rd Session)

26-3-14

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Name ALEXANDER, Keith BAIZLEY, Obie BJORNSON, Oscar .F. CAMPBELL, D. L. CARROLL, Hon. J.B. CHRISTIANSON, John Aaron CORBETT, A. H. COWAN, James, Q. C. DESJARDINS, Laurent . DOW, E. I. EVANS, Hon. Gurney FORBES, Mrs. Thelma FROESE, J. M. GRAY, Morris A. GROVES, Fred GUTTORMSON, Elman HAMILTON, William Homer HARRIS, Lemuel HARRISON, Hon.Abram W. HAWRYLUK, J. M. HILLHOUSE, T.P.,Q .C. HRYHORCZUK, M.N., Q.C. HUTTON, Hon. George INGEBRIGTSON, J. E. JEANNOTTE, J. E. JOHNSON, Hon . George . JOHNSON, Geo. Wm . . KLYM, Fred T. LISSAMAN, :R. 0. LYON,H on. �rling R., Q.C. MARTIN, w·. G. ·McKELLAR, M. E. McLEAN,H on.

Stewart E.,Q .C. · MOLGAT, Gildas MORRISON, Mrs . Carolyne ORIJKOW, David PAULLEY, Russell PETERS, S; PREFONTAINE, Edmond REID, A. J. ROBERTS, Stan ROBLIN, Hon. Duff SCARTH, W .B. , Q.C . SCHREYER, E. R. · SEABORN, Richard SHEWMAN, Harry P. SHOEMAKER, Nelson SMELLIE, Robert Gordon STANES, D. M. STRICKLAND, B. P. TANCHAK, John P. THOMPSON, Hon. John, Q.C. WAGNER, Peter WATT, J. D. WEIR, Waiter WITNEY, Hon. Charles H. WRIGHT, Arthur E. Electoral Division Roblin Os borne Lac du Bonnet Lake side The Pas Portage la Prairie Swan River Winnipeg Centre St.

Boniface Turtle Mountain Fort Rouge Cypress Rhine l and Inkater St. Vital St. George Duff erin Logan Rock Lake Burrows Selkirk. Ethel bert Plains Rockwood-Iberville Churchill Rupertsland Gimll Assiniboia Springfield . Brandon Fort Garry St. Matthews Souris-Lans downe Dauphin Ste. Rose Pembina St. John's Radisson Elmwood Carillon Kildonan La Verendrye Wolseley River Heights Brokenhead Wellington Morris Gladstone Birtle -R ussell St.

James Ham iota Emerson Virden Fisher Arthur Minnedosa Flin Flon Seven Oaks Address Roblin, Man . 185 Maplewood Ave., Winnipeg 13 Lac du Bonnet, Man. 326 Kelvin Blvd ., Winnipeg 29 Legislative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 86-9th St . , N. W. , Ptge. la Prairie, Man . Swan River, Man . 512 Avenue Bldg ., Winnipeg 2 138 Dollard Blvd ., St. Boniface 6, Man • Boissevain, Man . Legisla tive Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 Rathwell , Man . Winkler, Man . 141 Cathedral Ave ., Winnipeg 4 3 Kingston Row, St. Vital , Winnipeg 8 Lundar, Man.

Sperllng, Man . 1109 Alexande r Av e., Winnipeg 3 Holmfield, Man. 84 Furby St ., Winnipeg 1 Dominion Bank Bldg ., Selkirk, Man. Ethelbert, Man. Legislative Bld g., Winnipeg 1 Churchill, Man . Meadow Portage, Man . Legislative Bldg . , Winnipeg 212 Oakdean Blv d., St .James, Wpg. 12 ·Beausejour, Man • 832 Eleventh St., Brandon, Man . Legisl ative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 . 924 Palmerston Ave., Winnipeg 10 Nesbitt, Man . Legisla tive Bldg . , Winnipeg 1 Ste. Rose du Lac, Man. Manitou, Man. 179 Montrose St., Winnipeg 9 435 Yale Ave.W., Transcona 25, Man . 225 Melrose Ave., Winnipeg 15 St.

Pierre, Man. 561 Trent Ave ., E.K il d., Winnipeg 15 Niverville , Man . Legisla tive Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 407 Queenston St., Winnipeg 9 Beausejour, M� . 594'-.Aj:iington St. , Wfunipeg l.i> ·Morris . Man. · Neepawa, Man. - R�s�ell �. Man�_ 381 Guildford St. , St. James, Wpg. 12 iiamiota , Man . Ridgeville, Man. Legislative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 Fisher Branch, Man . Reston, Man . Minnedosa, Man . Legislative Bldg . , Winnipeg 1 4 Lord Glenn Apts .1 944 Main St ., Wpg.1 7 . /

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'c lock, Wednesday , March 1st, 196 1. Opening Prayer by Mr . Speak er. MR. SPEAKER: Pres enting Petitions . Re ading and Recei ving Petitions . MR . CLERK: The petition of Eric R. Hagglund and others praying for the passing of

an Act to incorpora te the Associa tion of Asses sing Officers of Manitoba. The petition of Brandon College Incorpora ted praying for the passing of

an Act to amend

an Act to Incorpor ate Brandon Colleg e Incorporated. The petition of The Royal Trust Company Mortgage Corpora tion, pray ing for the passing of

an Act respecting The Royal Trust Company Mortgage Corpo ration. MR. SPEAKER: Pre senting Reports of Standing and Select Commi ttees. Notice of Motion. Introduction of Bil ls. Orders of the Day. HON . GEO . HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture) (Rockwood- Iberville ): Mr . Sp eaker , before the Orders of the Day, it is a great pleasure for me to introduce to you two groups of pupils from two different schools in my constituency and also introduce them to members of this Asse mbly . The first grou p is from Warren , Manitoba. They are accompanied by their teacher, Mr .

Kotelko , in number 32 pupils and they are also accompanied by members of the community who are acting as drivers and escorts. The second group that I have the pleasure of introducing is from Rosser , Manitoba, accompanied by their teacher, Mrs . Ma rguerite Minaker and a number of the good citizens of my own municipality . They are grade s V to VIII and I would at this time , to both groups, extend a warm welcome to the House on behalf of all the members here.

I trust that you will enjoy your visi t and ti1at you will , as we do here, I hope, learn something and take something away from the deli berations you will witness today. MR. SPEAKER : Orders of the Day. HON . J .B. CARROLL (Minister of Pu blic Utilities) (The Pas) : Mr .

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to lay on the table of the House the Annual Report of the Municipal and Public Utility Board for the year ending December 31st, 1960; the Report of the Board of Motion Pictures Censors for the year 196 0; the Workmen's Compensation Board Report for the year 1960 and Regulations under the Winter Employment Act. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the CCF) (Radiss on) : Mr. Speaker , are copies of these going to be distributed?

I imagine some of them were not printed for all of the members , but I'm wondering whether the one in connection with the M�cipal and Public Utility Board will be ? ' MR. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, I can't answer that but I'll make enquirie s. I think there will be copies available but I will let you know later this afternoon . MR . A.J. REID (Kildona n) : Mr . Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to draw your attention and the members ' to the group on the right hand si de of the gallery . Our Minister of Education was speaking of all these new schools opening.

River East No . 9 openedo f,ficial ly on Monday. True , I didn't have the pleasure of attending the opening as I was sitting here but my colle ague, Ed. Schreyer, the Member for Brokenhead attended. They are accompanied by their teacher, Mr . Stinson, a well known name in this House -- but they' re no relation -- and also Mr. Rempel . The number of students is 70 and they are in part of the new con stituency in my area of North Kildonan which is expanding very rapidly .

I hope those stu dents, this afternoon, watch the proceedings of the House , they're in the age group that in a number of years I hope some of them will be sitting here . MR. SPEAKER: Proposed res olution of the Honourable Member for Birtle- Rus sell. Does the Order stand? HON . DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Yes , the Order stands , Mr . Speak er . MR . SPEAKER : Committee of Supply . MR . ROBLIN: Mr . Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Minister of Education that Mr .

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House reso lve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majes ty. Mr. Speaker pre sented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. March 1st, 196 1. Page 369

MR. SPEAKER: The House do now resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. Would the Honourable Member for St . Matthews please take the Chair . MR . CHAffiMAN: Department 5, Education - 1, Administration . MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, before we start in any reply to the Honourable the Minis ter , if you recall Sir , that 11 o' clock last evening, the Honourable the Minister of Educa tion was really in fine fettle and was really giving us an outline of his department .

If I recall correctly , just before we rose, it appeared to me as though he was condensing a number of his remarks in connection with the Department of Educat ion, including an outline in reply to one of my colle agues, namely the Honourable Member for Brokenhead, insofar as the Minis ter's philos ophy of education was concerned. Now I'm wondering, Mr.

Chairman, whether it wouldn 't be a good idea in view of the fact that I and maybe others in the House feel that the 11 o' clock closing hour prevented our honourable friend , the Minister of Education from completing his statements, including an outline of his philosophy before any comments come from this side of the House ,. that the Honourable Minister complete or expand his address that he was giving us so eloquently last evening. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! HON . STEW ART E. M cLEAN (Minister of Education) (Dauphin): Mr. Chairman, I'm grateful to the Honourable Leader of the CCF for what he has said.

I did say all that I wanted to say except the final item . I think perhaps it would be trespassing on the good nature of the Committee to say anything further. Perhaps I could just rest my case by saying I'm in favour of education . MR. E. I. DOW (Turtle Mountain) : Mr . Chairman, might I, at the outset, say a few words of commendation to the honourable member, the Minister of Education . He was in fine form last night and. gave a very exhaustive report on his department .

I would like to associa te my remarks with him in regards to the valuable service that his department, through the inspec tors and administrative staff, have given to me personally in any matter or development that I have been seeking information on. I am sure , Sir , that he would not expect that we on this side of the House should take into considera tion that he did make a wonderful report and that we should forego any criticism that we might have to offer. I am most happy Sir , that the improvement in education is starting to show throughout the rural parts of the province .

I am happy too that there are some innovations in his report to the Committee; particularly am I happy about part of the report in which he does show the results of examinations in grades XI and XII for the year 1960 . I'm wondering, Sir, if it would be possi ble for the Minister to get for us , I have checked and it's not in previous reports , the results for 1959 , 1958 in those respective classes . It' s like the old story, if the public are buying something they would like to see the end results .

I have some few observations that I would like to bring to this Committee and first of all , I believe , in my opini on , Sir , that there now shows throughout the rural parts of Manitoba, some justification for the criticism that has been offered in other channels , that the Boundarie s Commission did not acced e to the requests of some that the divisi ons now , in a lot of cases , are too large .

I think you will agree that the results of some of the votes that were taken on recent by-laws that it shows a certain amollllt of disunity by various towns and districts and this to me is not a good thing for Manitob a. I beli eve Sir , that had the divisions been possi bly smaller and a little more heed taken to the fact that the commissi on did recommend that the minimum asses sment be $5 million, and we have many of them that are running from 11 to $14 million over a wide territory.

I know of two or three divisions that the animosity that has arisen is going to be difficult to heal and I - feel Sir , that it has some affect on the ultimate results in regards to our younger people . I might , too, point out something that I have been promoting through other channels and which I feel might be well to take into consideration from the Department of Education through the Utility Board and their Board of Reference .

I feel that our procedure in submitting by-laws to the people Of divisions is based on a figure given by an architect, gone over by Board of Reference , and in some instances , divisions have voted and they have found that the money voted, did not take care of the schools that they had designed and off ered to the people and had to either ask for more money or cut back.

Now , Sir, there is a scheme that is, and I might say, Sir, that we're accused on this side of sometime criticizing and not offering anything , but I would like to offer this suggestion which is not new, I realize , but it is something that has Page 370 Mareh l:Jt3 1961. . -

(Mr . Dow, cont1d.) .•• •. worked through the municipal field in other sources and would work in this case . Whereby the board of reference , Department of Educati on , have approved of plans that a tender be ..•.•.. MR . McLEAN: For the sake of the record perhaps the honourable member should say the building projects committee. I know that's what he's talking about and there is another group, Board of Reference, which could be confusing if anyone were reading this . MR. OOW: Thank you, Sir, tha't who I'm -- the building committee.

These committees will approve of the plans and the division board would call for tenders, firm tender s, which could be subject to the approval of the ratepay ers . The difference it makes, Sir, is that when the people are asked to vote on a by-law they are assured that the building will be built for X numbers of dollars because they are holding a contract , a firm contract, for that building . And I make this as a suggestion that it could help a tremendous number of the ratepay ers in making their minds up .

Now, Sir, I must go back to one or two criticisms that I offered last year that in my opinion the improvement is not too great and which I as an individual do not like to see .

Through out rural Manitoba there is still trucks with plywood boxe s, little or no ventilation , a small window and a hea ter with plank seats , and I might say, Sir, that most of these are being travelled over, not what we call our good highways but our rough highways and I would like to see some consideration and possibly to a point of mandato ry, the Department of Education should not allow our younger people to be transported to school in these types of conveyan ces .

Sir , I feel sure that the Minister will agree wit� me that one of the marvels of all his tory is the patience with which men and women submit to the burdens that are laid down by government. They do submit willingly but it always comes to a time when they rise up and take a striking blow at these people that are administering. I have great concern, Sir, for the. rising costs to the ratepaye rs within the province that are real taxpaye rs.

I am not going to suggest that certain political and election promises were made , but I would like to read -- I know the Honourable the Minister will be interested in a statement I picked up when he and I were in the municipal field and I think this could apply . He was speaking in Bra ndon to the Manitoba Urban Assoc iation on a re solution which asked for increased financial assi stance from the province for education with particular attention to secondary grants as well as the capital cost of new buildings. And he said in part , Sir .••.. MR . M cLEAN: ......... limitations has run out on me there . MR .

OOW: I shall read in part , Sir, "We all' have a responsibility" -- I'm quoting from the Municipal News from the Convention of Janua ry, 1957 . "We all have a responsibility to see that all children rece ive more or less equal opportunity for education and therefore most of the costs should come from provincial revenue . At one time the ownership of land represented the wealth of the country but there are many sources of wealth now that were not thought of then .

There are many other governmental revenue s, liquor , motor vehicle taxes, gas tax , Dominion Provincial tax agreements; geared to the gross national product which has no direct relationship to the value of land. We can't tax liquor, etc . , and the only way we can share in the tax-re ntal agreements is through the distribution such as we suggest in this resolution." -- (Interje ction)- ! am not sure about that , Sir. The pre sent Minister of Education is reported in this paper as having said it, Sir.

Now, Sir, I find that regardle ss of the scheme in dollars and cents that the ever increasing cost to municipalities towards education is going up. I'm sorry I couldn't get the figure for 1960 but I do have them for two yea rs, between '58 and '59. Now .in 1958 the total amount of school taxe s that were levied within the province was 22 million 352 thousand odd dollar s; in 1959 the school taxes that were levied were 26 million , 674 thousand odd dollars . Now I can break that down to show you the relationship in regards to the total tax.

In 1958 in the rural areas there was 10 million odd dollar s levied for school tax as against 26 million of a total imposed on all taxes, or in other words 40% of the taxes imposed were for school purposes. Against that in the cities 12 million was levied for school tax as against 31 million levied for general tax, or 39% of the total tax imposition was levied in the cities.

In 1959 in the rural areas -- and in the rural areas I might say, Sir , that I'm including towns and cities and villages -- in 1959 , 12 million dollars was levied for school tax as against 27 million levied for other civic improvements, or 47% of the required amount was school ta. ... . In the city 14. 7 million was for school tax and 33 millions for other purposes with 45% of the total tax March 1st, 1961. Page 371

(Mr . Dow, cont' d.) •• .•• being school tax. So you can see generally that the tax increase on real property has increased from 40 to 47 in the rural areas and 39 to 45 percent in the city areas . Now that does not include 1960 taxes . So I have concern -- (Interjection) -- well , that's your guess -- however it may be true, but I haven't got those figures, I can't quote them.

But I have concern, Sir, that while I realize that education is the main express purpose of all of us in this Legislature I feel that the burden should not be increased on the real property taxpayer, that there should be some ways and means that if it is necessary financially to expend tbe money that we are expending for education that surely we can find some other means of taking that burden away from the real property taxpayers.

I feel, Sir, that to develop industry and com. merce and a better place to live in, particularly in the rural parts that we mustn't put all our eggs in the one basket and our percentage of taxes be increased to any degree any higher than it is at the present time . Now, Sir , there is another item that concerns me .

I'm a little confused in regards to the figures as given by our Minister last evening and the somewhat, possibly we're talking at two different ends, but I think our final degree of satisfaction in this province is that we shall have a system of education that's above and beyond any of the other neighbouring states or provinces. He mentions that the degree of permit teachers has decreased but from the Mani- toba Teacher's Society News Letter dated November 25th, 1960, this is what disturbs me .

In part, on statistical information given out they say: "However, there are still 969 teachers who do not have the minimum qualifications for the pos ition they hold . This compares with 970 last year. This figure includes teachers with permits , letters of authority or conditional certificates. " Now this is a concern to me be cause with the money that we are paying I think that we should have an improvement of better than 12 percent of the teachers are, according to their figures, do not have the minimum qualifications for the position they now hold.

Sir, there is one other concern that I have -- it was in the Free Press , February 18th of this year -- it's the Sanford-McDonald School which it gave quite strong publicity -- "It looks at the present time that unless the Department enters the picture, the people apparently won •t make their minds up, but it looks like there's no schools in the fall for 80 pupils." I might say that any time that would happen, and I'm sure the Minister will not allow it to happen, that we are not using our best influence towards our young people .

I just would like to repeat, Sir , that I know that the municipal men are concerned and greatly concerned at the rising costs in their taxes and I know that they are going to make demands on this legislature and I hope that the Department will take into due consideration some of tbe arguments that I have presented. MR . L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface) : Mr. Chairman, last evening I listened to the speech of the Honourable the Minister of Education with great interest and very carefully, but unfortun ately what I was waiting for was not said at all.

Now tbe Honourable Minister did advise us that he had a lot more material and that we can ask all tbe que stions that we could think of, that he would be very interested in answering. Therefore , Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Honourable Minister of Education at this time , if he is in favour of the principle of state aid to private and parochial schools? Mr. Chairman, on the point of privilege, I think, could I ask the Minister if he will favour me with a reply on this question? MR . McLEAN: Mr .

Chairman, I have nothing to add to what was said on this subject on two earlier occasions by the First Minister. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, nothing was said .. ...... ..... Let's get this straight. I'm not asking the Minister to tell us -- to give us any policy of the government, but the Minister last night told us about his philosophy of education, that he was for education, and I think that this . is a very good question. I think that we're entitled to know·where he stands on this . He certainly has had time to listen to it.

I'm not trying to put words in his mouth , I just want to know his feelings on this . The question is in principle . Now this has been going quite awhile and there's been a royal commission on this. I can understand that we might get the answer that the govern ment is not ready to act. I think the Minister, through the newspaper if no other way and the First Minister told us that, but I still think we're entitled to know the principle to see if the Honourable the Minister of Education is in favour of this aid, at least the principle of state aid.

Now maybe for some reason it can't be done now but I would like to have an answer to this ques tion, Mr. Chairman. MR . EDMOND PREFONTAINE (Carillon): Mr . Chairman, I'm very sorry that I had to Page 372 March 1st, 1961. . -

(Mr. Prefontaine , cont' d.) ..... be absent last night when the Minister made his remarks with respect to his department. I have just started to read it but I haven't had time to go through. At the opening of the estimates the Minister said that he was in favour of education. I would like to ask him whether }le is in favour of equal education for all . I think this is the question that should be put to the Minister at this time .

The Minister has done marvelously well, I bel ieve , with respect to the common school , with respect to the education of those who beli eve in a secular system of education , education in a neutral school . But there are those in this province who believ e that this is not enough , who believe in a God centred educati on; an edu cation of a type that stresses spiritual values. And there are a lot of people in this province who believe that we should stress spiritual values.

There are Mennonite groups in the City of Wiimipeg who have , beca use they feel that God should be in the schools , that they have an obli gation towards their children to build and to staff private scho ols . You have the Catholics, you have the Angli cans , you have the Jewish people and I bel ieve that these people are doing some thing worthwhile for Manitoba; directing schools that are perfectly legal . Now, Mr. Chairman , we have in this province compulsory school attendanc e.

And for that purpose the department certifies schools other than public schools to the effect that they are acceptable for boys and girls to receive an education . Has not the government any respons ibility to see to it that these schools are helped to provide an educational standard comparable to the public schools ? I believe , Mr. Chairman, this House , the government -- this House has a responsibility towards all , to all, and that it is not fair that all the money should go to one side , to the supposedly neutral school s. This has gone along now for 70 years.

The Minister has praised the teachers , has praised about everyone . He has not praised those who have saved this province millions of dolla rs, more than a.million every year to provide the type of education that theit' conscience tells them they should provide for their children. I believe it is unfair that this thing should carry on any longer. The Royal Commission has made a state ment which to me· is most important . It has stated that the majority has the unquestionable obligation not to impose its will on the minority , unle ss it is clearly necessary for the public interest.

And what's happening in this province ? This is what is happening, the majority is imposing its will on the minority . Depriving this minority of the possibility of providing equality of educational opportunity, because they have to pay taxes to the common school , and if they want this type of education that they believe in they have to go deeper into their pockets and try to support a school of their own in the sense that they want God in the school . Mr . Chairman , I believe the time has come when this province should realize that we are in Canada.

We are under the Canadian pattern of education where the wishes of the minor ities are listened to and recognized. We are not in the United States. We are unde r the British system . This is recognized all over Britain . And something will have to be done sooner or later in this province of ours .

It can't go on, especia lly since this government that we have now has spent so much more for the public school , for the common school , for the Godle ss school , it has spent so much, there is no limit apparently to what it will spend, but nothing at all -- and this has made the position of those who believe in a God-centred school , it has made their position impossible .

They have to pay higher taxes directly or indirectly for the common school and in order to get teachers they have to increase the salaries they have to pay, they are in a sense competing with themselves to try and secure a good standard for their own school s, which they have a full right to have . This House has not the right to deprive them of this right, it hasn't the right. But it is not providing any help , and I think the responsibility of this House goes further than to provide education for those who bel ieve in a Godle ss school or a neutral school . It goes further than that .

Every boy and girl in this province whatever type of legal or constitutional school it attends has the right to government assi stance . Furthermore, we have seen the government go ahead and provide an incentive to teachers to qualify themselves in order to become better teachers. It is paying 100 percent of the salarie s according to the salary

schedule . This is good in itself, but it doesn't go far enough when it omits to provide some assi stance to the other teachers who are teaching in legal schools so that they also can improve their qualifications . They are left to themselves, they are left to the poor parents of these children who have to pay the shot over and above contributing to the public schools . I would like to suggest to the Minister that his conscience must bother him at times. My conscience , I told the House last year , has bothered me for 25 years when I voted estimates of March 1st, 1961. Page 373

(Mr. Prefontaine, con t'd. ) •.••• this kind, knowing all the time that those who believe in God had no chance , had nothing at all coming to them . Maybe my language is pretty strong. I know that there are those who believe in the common school who believe in God also, but I mean that a system which ignores God to the extent that the public school does is not a system that I would like to see for my own child. In the constituency of Carillon the question does not pose itself. ·We have been able to elect trustees who have the same feeling as I have.

They can orient the school towards what they believe in in education. Now I don't want anybody to believe that the law is not followed. The law is followed. It is not against the law to have an image in the schools or a crucifix. It is not against the law to have a Catholic teacher. It would be against the law to spend a whole day in teaching religion, but this is not being done. The curriculum is followed all through. It's the same with respect to steinbach and the Mennon ite constituency . They operate their own schools to their liking.

But there are situations in Winnipeg and I pity - ......... and all the other people, Anglicans , Jewish people, Mennonite people who believe that God has a place in the school in a Christian democracy -- I sympathize with them . And I feel that I as a legislator am not doing my duty towards these people in the large centres like Winnipeg when it is impossible to orient the school towards what they believe in in education . I believe, Mr . Chairman , that the time has come that something should be done.

Now I .know that the Fit·st Minister and the Minister of Education have attended openings of private and parochial schools in the past. I wonder if their conscience was not bothering them a little bit every time they did attend these openings when they realized, and they must have realized, that as representing the government they knew very well the government had not supplied a cent towards the construction of the new schools and towards the operation'of the se schools.

I wonder what they will have in their mind or in their conscience , in their heart , in the future. when they do attend some more openings of these schools, if they do attend , and I wish they would . They would realize at least that there are some people who are ready to make sacrifices for their conscience , for their convictions. Now, Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry that the Minister has not seen fit to answer the question of my colleague from St . Boniface. We cannot force him to answer.

I would like to see the government, I would like to see this House realize that there 's an unfairness going on; that every boy and girl in this province is entitled to some help from this government because through the ir parents they are paying taxes to this government. Now the se parents have saved as I said, millions , and it's time that it should be recognized. They do not want to harm the public school system. The Royal Commission has recommended a ways and means by which this system would not be harmed. And there are other possibilities , I'm sure .

It would be possible say just to give some grant directly to the teachers in tho se schools so that it would not look as if you paid to the Catholic Church, the Mennonite Church, the Anglican Church or others . Pay some grant direct to the school teacher where there is no public school board, and in that way you could at least do something to provide equal opportunity to all, not only to a small group in this province. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr . Chairman , I still would like to know if the Minister -- the Honourable Minister to make it clear if he refuses to answer my question?

Because if he does I think that the Honourable the First Minister should consider replacing this Minister with a man that -- No this is not a laughing matter at all -- replacing the man by a man whose philosophy of education, on education and equal opportunity includes everybody. Because we certainly have no confidence in a man like that. If he's against let him state his feelings on it; this is his duty. After all he's the Minister of Education . MR . E.R •. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr .

Chairman, I would like to associate myself with anyone in this Chamber who would care to commend the Minister of Education for the fine and informative statement which he presented to this House last night . I feel that the Minister once again demonstrated that his capacity for work and his ability, public relations-wise is still unimpaired, and I might add that he has still lost none of his snap, crackle and pop that he seems to possess.

At least after listening to him last night I- - my first impression and I daresay the impression of a good many here was that education in thi s province had undergone tremendous improvement it is true , but also I think that a good many of us felt that really almost all had been done that could possibly and humanly be done and therefore there isn't too much in the way of criticism that might be offered. But I suggest, Mr . Chair man, that Page 374 March 1st, 1961.

(Mr. Schreyer, cont'd.) •.•• • this is not the case . Several things should be pointed out and I propose to do so at this time. I would be one of the first to admit that the program of secondary school divisions in this province is a resounding success. And we are not surprised, we in this group are not surprised because we advocated it for at least 15 years and certainly did our best to help bring this into fruition. So we're not surprised!

At the same tim,e we wish to say that there's no need and indeed no room for complacency so far as the educational picture in this province is concerned, and I couldn't help but feel that the Honourable the Minister was just a little too complacent last night. He had a statistical field-day, quoting reams of figures to prove that all was well with education in this province . His face was radiant and he was very happy with himself. We can't blame him too much. But let us look at the picture in a broader scope .

The world we're living in today is undergoing constant and rapid change; the demand upon abil ity and people is growing. The world is becoming a more subtle and complex place in which to live. Is Canada keeping up with the demands upon the educational standards of its people? I don't think that this will be too much of a surprise when I point out that in the United States about 8% of the gross national production is spent on educalion; in the U. S. S. R. about 12% of the gross national product is spent on education. In Canada, it's a rather dismal 4%, and we in Manitoba are not over that 4% figure.

So we are keeping up to the Canadian standard. Of course let's be thankful at the very beginning that we're not staying below it, as we have been in the past, I suggest. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that there is a need for drastic , serious and fundamental consideration, changes in our school program to allow for the maximum in facilities and instruction in vocational and technical education. This is where, this is the broad field in w:b...ich I think we are still abysmally behind the place where we should be because, and now that we're in a recession, the need is all the more obvious .

Young people today -- and it's the young people who go to swell the unemployed ranks -- they're the ones who often find themselves unable to get work because of the fact that they have no adequate technical or voca tional training because they don't get it in the school system. Now I know that we have made rapid progress in the last two years but from here, from 1961 , let us be willing to take giant steps toward revision and enlargement of vocational and technical training programs in our schools in this province .

I know that oft'times you can come across clippings in the newspaper where responsible corporation officials say, oh, it's really not necessary to educate our young people today in technical and vocational skills, as long as they have general knowledge give them to us and we will be able to do something with them . This is simply distortion of the fact as it exists, Mr. Chairman, because if you consult the employment office records, you will find that companies, all employers wish to employ those young people who have the kind of skills that will enable them to take the job and move right in on it.

Well, what happens here in this country? When it comes to work requiring highly-skilled technical knowledge, for example in high-pressure welding, we have to have welders brought in from Texas and Oklahoma; when it comes to lathe work and skilled machinists work, the opportunity is there , and the people , new Canadians coming in from West Germany and the Benelux countries and Britain, they find the opportunity there waiting for them. Our own young people do not seem to have the required knowledge to cope with this kind of work.

So we have to take a real drastic look in that direction And have we done anything in that regard so far? I suggest, Mr. Chairman, we have done absolutely nothing much more compared with last year. Because last year, vocational education appropriation was in the neighbourhood of $565 , 000; this year it's $638 ,0 00 for the entire directorate of vocational education. In other jurisdictions of similar population -- I don't have to name them, the members know what province I'm referring to -- they are this year appro priating over $1,20 0,0 00 , in other words double the amount for vocational education.

So the Minister certainly can't feel complacent on that score . I notice too , that the Minister made reference to the fact that there was improvement in standards of entries to the Teacher Training institutions in this province. Well, that might be so. Maybe some improvement in their general qualification standard and so on, but I wonder why the Minister saw fit to reduce the allocation to that directorate by the sum of $18, 000 .

If he is so convinced that there is a need to improve the standards, as indeed he did intimate last night, surely you don't go about improving standards by reducing the monetary allocation. I also know that the Minister was not very enthused with the idea of moving the Teachers' March 1st , 1961. Page 375

(Mr . Schreyer, cont'd.) ..••• College to the university, in which atmosphere that institution should be . If he was really concerned and sincere with improving teacher training standards thi s would seem like the logical step to have undertaken. But I know that he contemplates no such move now or even in the near future . If he does , I hope he would inform this House. It seems that the Minister should give us his thinking on the matter of whether or not a two-year teacher training program should be implemented in thi s provinc e.

This is not un common , as a matte r of fact , most jurisdictions to the south of us do follow this type of teacher training program . Then too for a man like the Minister of Education who professes, and I know he means this sincerely, who in fact confesses and adm its and asserts that he is very concerne d with the morale and welfare of the teach ers of this province - I know he is - I'm somewhat surprised therefore to find him making no mention of the need for revision of the Teacher Retirement Fund, or the pension plan in this province .

Let's face it, as the Minister said last night , and I quote: "The whole job of providing education would fall to the ground if it were not for the teach ers who in the classrooms carry into effect or make worthwhile the work that we endeavour to do .. .• " The teach ers are the human resource upon which education is centered and they must be dealt with with proper regard. I'm not going to make any mention of salary; it would perhaps be -- some could accuse me of preaching for my own cause here - but I do feel justified in making a great deal of to do about the pension plan now in effect.

Be cause even if it is improved it won't effect me -- probably three revisions will be required before I ever retire. The plain fact of the matte r, Mr . Chairman , is that in this province the teacher pensions are one-third lower than that of Ontario , a good deal lower than that of the provinces to the west of us , and it's a disgra ce , as my colleague says, it 's a disgrace to have teach ers put in 30 to 40 years of service and then retire with an annual annuity or pension in the neighbourhood o,f $1 ,8 00 as I know some teachers who are .

The Minister may well get angry at me for what I will say now , but I'm wondering if the reasons why there is no consider ation being given towards the raising of the teach er retirement fund. pension plan is perhaps this is one way of avoiding any increase in teacher shortage because after all these teach ers who normally retire are almost forced because of economic circumstances to continue teaching for several years beyond normal retirement , and I know that the Minister, in one way at least , appreciates that beca use it does not make the teacher shortage any more accute . It sort of helps in that regard.

If the Ministe r has some thoughts in this regard he should declare them so that the teach ers of this province , especially the more elderly teache rs of this province , know where they stand and so that they can make proper plans for their years of retirement . I don't think that they should be kept waiting high and dry . I was glad to see that in the Throne Speech, that definite plans will be undertaken toward the construction of an Institute of Technology. I do think however, Mr .

Chairman, that it's important we know just what the capacity of this institute shall be , what level of training will be given, because obviously different technical training institutions require different standards of admission requirements . So I think this is important and the Minister should deal with that as well . Mr. Chairman , it just occurred to me , reverting back to teach er pensions . I'm in formed that the Minister was presented with a Brief which outlined the study the Manitoba Teachers' Society made on teacher pensions , that recommendations for improvement were contained therein.

The Minister is in possession of this study, a study which incidentally cost over $1 0,0 00 , which took over two years to compile . The Minister has therefore at his dis posal practically all the pertinent information he may require to make a decision in the matter . I am therefore a little concerned and worried and surprised and confused as to why he should · have to stall on this matter and why he should have to announce that he was going to have a study made of this study. I can appreciate . . . . . · MR . McLEAN: I'd like to point out, Mr . Chair man, that I made no such announcement . MR .

SCHREYER: Well , I stand corrected if that 's the case. Mr. Chairm an, I can appreciate the need for studying a study, but I cannot understand the need for setting up a study to study a study, and that seems to be the kind of approach that the gentlemen opposite like to take . If they want to evade a matter they set up a study to study a study -- a superstructure . The study is there ; study it and then make your decision . HON.

GURNEY EV ANS (Minister of Industry & Commerce) (Fort Rouge) : I wonder if my honourable friend is referring to the little jingle that says: "Big fleas have little fleas upon Page 37 6 March 1st, 1961.

(Mr . Evans , cont'd.) •..• their backs to bite 'em and little fleas have smaller fleas and so on ad infinitum." MR. SCHREYER: Well , Mr. Chair man, I think that there is a good analogy there , a good compa rison . As I said at the outset, Mr.

Chairman , the Honourable Minister had a stat istical field-d ay and of course in almost all cases he was justified in taking pride in the accomplishments of his department, but I feel that it is really not giving the entire picture when one quotes sta tistics to show the increase in student popula tion , because if you consult the stati stical ta bles at the back of the last report you will find that the secondary school pop ulation has been increasing at a fairly stead y rate for the last five yea rs, and furthermore in 1960 the re does show up a substantial increase .

I submit that perhaps a good part of it may be due to the post-war , as people call it the post-war baby boom . Isn't that possi ble? It seems hi ghly likely in any case . Now then if you want to quote statistic s, Mr. Chairm an, to the exclusion of othe r factors I would still like to suggest as I did last sessi on that statisticswise we can take no particular great comfort in this province because our student population per thousand people is still not up to the national average , whate ver that moans , but tha t's statist ics, and you can make a good deal of it, it depends which way you want to use it .

I would like the Minister to make some comment as to what plans , if any , his depart ment has or he has with regard to the matter of. adult education outside the Greater Win.11 ipeg are a. I notice a start has been made beca use in the report there is reference to the fact that out side of Greater Winnipeg 495 people are taking adult evening cla sses . Well 495 people , that 's a good start, a scra tch at least. Certainly the Minister must have something more in mind; we'd like to hear about it.

We notice also in the report that government loans for students requiring financial assist ance seems to total $49 ,3 65. I might point out that in Ontario taking into conside ration the population ratio , nevertheless the amount of loans available is still three times larger and in the Province of Saskatchewan three times larger. Furthermore, I notice in that province that they have increased their revolving fund from :>ne million to three million dollars this session. This is a substantial increase and I think bodes well for education in that province .

Perhaps we would do as well to think something along the same lines here in Manitoba . The total budget or the total estimate expenditures for the Department of Education total 33 million some odd dolla rs. In Saskatchewan , now I do not apologize , I'm merely pointing out for sake of compar ison , in Saskatchewan the total estimated expenditure 42 million, the population being practically the same . Perhaps that is very telling, Mr. Cha irman, in this is that in Saskatchewan the amount of grants to the divisions and local districts is 7- 3/4 million dollars greater.

Perhap s thi s is helping to keep the lid on real property taxation respecting educat ion. If my remarks are disjo inted, Mr . Chair man, I don't apologize because I think I should object, and I take this opportunity to object to the Minister that the report of his department should be ta bled on the same day as he introd uces his estimate s. I think in the future they should attempt to table it at least two days or three day s before . In concluding, Mr.

Chair man, I noticed last. night that the Minister made reference to the alleged fact that the government no longer has to buy up debentures of the school divisio ns . He said when the interest rate rises over 6-3/4 percent then the government will buy them, the province will buy them -- at the same rate I presume. But I noticed in looking over the report that at least three divisions have had to pay 7 percent, some over 7 percent for interest on their debentures . I can't understand why the district of North Kildonan which is in river east has to pay 7 percent interest on its debentures.

Perhaps the Minister would like to explain that . It's in the table on the back. Mr. Chairman , before I take my place I would like once again to re iterate three basic points which I feel the Minister has not made adequate reference to . First of all : I contend that the vocational training program in this province is completely , almost completely, inadequate in this day and age with rising unemployment, increasing need for technical skills on the part of our young people , and now that we have the division program which I give all due credit to him , there is no excuse for lagging in this regard.

The point , that even though we have done a great deal we are still not by any means lea ving the othe r well developed nations of this world behind. As a matter of fact we are still lagging, and if we have made tremendous strides in the last two years it's only to bring us up to comparable level with other provinces in this na tion . We are not leaving them in the dust by no means. And thirdly : March 1st, 1961. Page 377

(Mr . Schrey er, cont'd. ) ..••• with regard to teacher pensio ns, I think the Ministe r, who is a humanitarian and I'm sure he is, should have more reg ard for those more elderly teachers who face years of retir ement unable to make plans because they see annual pensions completely inadequate to give them a life of retirement that they are entitled to. MR. M. A. GRAY (Inkster) : Mr. Chairman , those who have been with me here in this House for some time would appreciate I am not an absentee .

I try to attend every sess ion and I don't think in the last 20 years I have missed many, but I must go out on a ver y important matter this week-end and in case the ��:�nmates may be decided upon by next Monday I would like to make one or two comments on two items only. And I hope the committee will bear with me . You know that it 's the one that is hungry who appreciates food.

Unfortunately through no fault of mine I have not been able to get through an academic education and I cannot with authority discuss education in general , and secondly, the Minister of Education of our group, the honourable member who has just spoken, and I hope it will not be very long until he's called officially , had made a general address which I concur with him .

The items which I wanted to discuss are only two and this is teacher's training and the curri culum and I would have had it discussed under the diffe rent ite ms , but for the reason I have explained, with your kind per mis sion , I will touch on it now . And the first 'thing is teacher's trainin g.

I'm speaking entirely not academically -- I'm speaking as a father whose four children have gone through elementary school, high school and university, and also I'm speaking on behalf, perhaps, of those parents who either are unable or through economic conditions cannot take care of their children, of the school children of their own.

The child goes to school and spends with the teacher the whole day; the mothe r either goes to work and can't look after the children -- I'm speaking about those who are economica lly compelled to go to work , and believe me they have had to do it in the last 25 years that I know, because unemployment, low wages was not sufficient for the husband or the father to look after the home .

So the mother hands over the children to the teacher for the purpose of molding their inte lligence, for the purpose of taking care of their health, for the purpose of bringing it up academically and int elligently so when they go out of sch ool they could perhaps have more courage , more facilities to get a job and not be compelled to look for a livelih ood.

The father on the other hand goes to work when the children are asleep; when they come home it is late at night , he's tired and perhaps he hasn 't got the facilit ies nor abili ty, and sometimes the in terest to talk to the children about what they have done in school, how their work is going on, examine their report cards and try to show an in terest, but he hasn't got the facilitie s.

Pers onally when my children were small in elementary schools I made it my busine ss to go down there at least once a week to each class and just speak to the teacher and it had a big influence on my child sitting down there that his or her father came in and shows an inte rest, and then he was quite careful to see that I wouldn't have to either spank him or tell him things he has not done. It's a big influence . How many fathers and mothers are going now to the school to see the teacher and find out how they're getting along?

So I say that the child is enti rely left almost all their life , perhaps with the exception of the meal hour when the could talk to them , so the training of the teacher is an extremely important one . I think that the teacher should be as the old style Rabbis , they become a Rabbi for the sake of being a Rabbi and then of course they would have to have subsistence to exist . I think the school teachers should be picked and the teachers themselves should not undertake any position as a teacher although they are academically qualifie d.

That's not sufficient , beca use . we'r e handing over our coming generation in the hands of an individual , and it's the individua l's in terest to see , one from a taxpayers point of view which is a small thing with me , although it may be a big issue with the Leader of the Opposition, to me the future of the child is more important and that's why when it comes to the item here in the estimates of training the teachers I think perhaps a little bit more careful note should be taken. MR . CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition) (Lakesid e) : How did I get into this argument? MR .

GRAY: Well , you get so much publicity, they mi ght as well give it all to you because we don't get any. Now the second thing is the curriculum . Now I'm not speaking as an expert at all, I told you before . Why I am in this House I don't know. Looking at all the in telligent academic faces around here I think I'm an orphan , but at the same time I feel that there are somethings -- Page 378 March 1st, 1961.

(Mr . Gray, cont'd.) •.•.. two items at least I am going to mention, is lacking and badly lacking -- we are going somewhere which we don't know ourselves where we are going. One is the social training in the schools . I think it's taken up all over America now. It's in Europe now. Those days that a child should not know something about which the mother keeps away from her is gone and the result is that that child , a boy or a girl, gets her education from the outside of the school , and this is harmful.

I think a way should be found using certain -- different methods in different grades , that a child should get education from the school teacher because she can not get it from her mother. We haven't got enough -- I shouldn •t say that because I'll be defeated next election -- we haven't got enough intelligent mothers to realize the importance of this . I don't say that we ha ven't got -- they're not all, but we ha ven't got enough, and I think this is a very very serious matter.

And my second point is the spirits -- I could use thi s word, I think it' s parliamentary, to allow a few dollars for alcoholic education in a budget of $34 million. It is a shame that a small province like Manitoba should spend close to $60 million for alcohol a year. $60 million -- close to anyway, I'm not giving the exact figures. It's a shame . At the same time we are trying to spend a couple of dollars for alcoholic education .

You cannot train an old horse new tricks ; you cannot prevent me from taking a drink, it's too late , it's hopeless , but the child should be trained, trained at the school age , the harm that liquor doe s, the big expense which the average workingman' s family cannot afford. They should be trained, and we are not doing anything for it. I want to finish my couple of remarks, first of all to apologize for an uneducationalist to speak about education , and secondly I want to commend the Minister of Education , the Department of Education for the work they have done .

We are not worrying about it , but the world is progressing and we cannot stop and say "here , a job well done ." They have done a good job but the job is not finished. MR . J.P. TANCHAK (Emerson) : Mr . Chairman, I too , wish to add a few words on this and I promise not to be too long. I'm happy to say that I agree with the Minister, that the Department and his staff also the civil servant s have given us very good service and that they're conscientious ment about what they are doing .

And I also wish to congratulate the Minister on his splendid effort be is putting into his department to try and improve education in Manitoba and I also wish to congratulate them on his great succes s. That's something that we cannot take away from him . I notice the Honourable Minister took an awful lot of credit for the differ ent things that have happened in Manitoba since the divisions were established in here. True, since he is the head of the department he has a perfect right to claim , to try and claim most of this credit but .... MR . McLEAN: I wasn't claiming any credit . MR .

TANCHAK: Well to me it seemed that all these increases , all the different statistics actually was the Minist er's claim -- that he tried to take all the credit for it. I would also say that the Minister. is also responsible for all, since he is the head of the depart ment, is also responsible for all the ills created by the establishment of the divisions , since the divisions were established . Now let's look at the credit side of the ledger. Education of our children has been im proved and as I said before I give him credit .

It has been improved and improved to a greater extent since the division s, especial ly in the second ary schools since the divisions were estalr lished. But it has continuously been improving for several years, especially in the last ten years. The people have become education conscieus and they know that their children , when they grow up , will definitely require more education than they had . True , the Royal Com mission also gave emphasis to this progress in education, and the Minister took most of its recommendations and implemented them, therefore he has a perfect right to take some of the credit .

Now great increases in student attendance in the last few years . The Honourable Member from Brokenhead commented on this . I don't think that the increase is all due to establishment of division s. We have in my are a, part of my area is a non-division area, and in that part they're telling me that the high school student population increased by 33 percent and we're not in a division . The young people are seeking means and ways of finding their education. Some of them who have no high school close make arrangements with a neighbour ing division and if they seek they get their education .

Take the size of the City of Winnipeg. I don't think the divisions directly affected the City of Winnipeg and the increase in the student March 1st, 1961. Page 379

(Mr. Tanchak, cont'd.) ••..• population is tremendous in the City of Winnipeg, and I say that this would have happened, there would have been a substantial increase regardless of divisions, if the divisions were formed, and not in the City of Winnipeg, because it didn't have too much effect on it. And a lot of this increase is due to our post-war child population as has previous ly been mentioned. Now the great increase in classrooms .

That was truly necessitated by the establish ment of divisions ,-but we also have to take into consideration the large number of classrooms which were discarded, abandoned since new schools have been built, and I know of a few. Just to mention two of them, there is one at Boissev ain, a six-room school that has been discarded; there's another one at Killarney, a six-room classroom; that makes 12 almost very close together in one division.

So true, there are very many classrooms built in the Province of Manitoba, and I agree that they were desirable because as I mentioned before that a certain amount of centralization is commendable in the Province of Manitoba as it improves the education of our pupils . But just to point out one side of this I don't think is in order. Somebody should draw attention to the other side of the story . Now what about the modern classrooms . I agree that most of the schools built now are very very modern. In fact ultra modern and that's the way it should be.

The ordinary residents building their own houses now make them very very modern, but it isn't true only of divisions . We have a beautiful school built at Ridgeville. It's a very modern school and it's not in a division. They have a beauti ful school built at Emerson. The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources officiated at the opening last year, and I'm sure that he'll agree with me that it's a very very modern school. Comparable in fact in his own words at the opening, he did make a statement that it compares very favourably with any school in the City of Winnipeg.

And here I would have to say that these modern classrooms if we go back we have to give credit to the Hydro that we have out in the rural areas . Just imagine what would have happened if there was no electricity in the towns and in the rural areas. You wouldn't have the lights , the proper lights, they wouldn't have the refrigerators, they wouldn't have the plumbing which is absolute ly necessary, unless naturally they resort to the more antique system of lighting and plumbing and that wouldn't be so modern.

So sane of these credits I do not think that the present government is wholly responsible for such great progress , although I say that the re was great progress made and especially in the divisions. Now let us look at some of the debit side of this problem -- ills created, I mentioned before and I noticed the Minister smiled. I like to see him smiling. There were some ills created and the most important one is the one about the costs and he well knows that when divisions were organized most of the officials went out, especially in the rural areas , led the people to believe that the costs would not in crease .

And I say that was deliberately misleading to people by telling them that the cost to build, the province will take greater share of the burden of rural taxation. And I say that the government is directly responsible, and also the Premier himself, because he is the head of all the different departments. He is responsible for this and the only thing that I can say is that the government themselves including the Premier were completely ignorant of the enormity of the cost of this project or were deliberately trying to misinform the people, and that's what hurts me. I don't like it. MR.

ROBLIN : •••••• don't waste any tears on it. MR . TANCHAK: I didn't hear the Premier , I'm sorry. MR . ROBLIN: I said your statement wasn't true. MR . TANCHAK: Well, whether the statement was true or not, but I can tell you where it happened.

It happened ,at the MSA pre sentation brief to the government, when one of the members asked the Premier why is it that the divisions didn't pan out as was advertised cost wise and to the best of my information, and it was an honourable man, and I have reason to believe that he was telling me the truth; he said the answer the Premier gave was , "Believe me Sir, we have no idea of the enormity of the cost of the project." Well, if the government did not have any idea of the enormity of the cost of this project then I say they must have been ignorant, and why?

Because the divisions were established between the two elections and they had to rush. And I mentioned that before, and I objected to that rush. The Honourable Minis ter of Education knows that I did and he objected to me saying that, and I still say that they rushed. Now there's a member wanting to get up and I know what he is going to say . He's Page 380 March 1st, 1961 -

(Mr . Tanchak, cont'd.) ••••• going to say that it was ten years overdue . I've heard that story before; the Minister told me that himself. MR . KEITH ALEXANDER (Roblin): Mr. Chairman, could I ask the honourable member a question? Why didn't he move a motion on third reading that consideration of the bill be held over for a year while it wouldn't be rushe d:? MR .

TANCHAK: Because we felt that the people who told us , the sponsors of these divisions were telling us the truth that it was (Interject ion) •••• yes, that it was very good , and it wasn't going to cost the people of Manitoba very much more money, and we were inclined to believe them . That's why we voted for that , to see if they can do it. And at that time I •.••••. made that statement before .

And it 's wrong to say that it is ten years overdue because our education -- our educational system needed revising and there was a Royal Commissi on appointed, and naturally the present government tried to implement some of its recommenda tions , but they were in such a terrible rush that they didn't stop to consider the cost and the ills, the advantages and dis advantages and bring them up to the people , and that 's what I did object to. The report recomme nded about 65 divisions and what have we got? I think the Minister did mention yesterday there were 42 or 43 divisions in the Province of Manitoba.

As was previously mentioned, I think that is one of the ills of the divisions. They should have been more compact, smaller and probably more wieldy. It would have been much easier to build those schools in such a manner that most of the people would have been satisfied. Now the construction grants. If you look deep into that , study it, we were promised- the people of Manitoba were promised that the government would pay up to 75 percent of construction grants according to the number of class rooms .

Now even that is not right because it has been proved now that the government only pays 75 percent on a larger school up to $15 , 000 -- 7 5 percent of $15 , 000 . And most of the mo dern classrooms now cost more than $15 ,0 00. Therefore the government isn't paying 75 percent because the ratepaye rs are required to pay the difference between the $15, 000 and say $19 , 000 -- 34, 000 per classroom amounts to quite a pile of money when it's a 12 or 13 classroom or 15 classroom school. It amounts to an awful lot of money.

Therefore the government isn't paying 75 percent and I think it is time that this policy was changed. I shall not speak on that because I unders tand it will be taken up later. Now all I can say in conclusion, I will have some more questions to ask, but if I had to do it all over again, if the divisions were organized again, I would still say to my constituents that this plan is bette r; this plan will improve the education in Manitoba, but I would not go ahead and tell them that we'll not trust any more . I would simply tell the people the truth.

It is going to be bette r, definitely bett er, and I agree that it is bette r. Tre re is an improve ment but the people should have known the truth about it. You'll have to pay for it. Now there's only one and I'll get some -- maybe this is not going to be constructive criticism . We're told that we don't give constructive criticism , and this is in reg ards to grants , teacher grants in areas not presently established as divisions. I'll speak about boundary because I don't think--! shouldn't be speaking about Rhineland--the honourable member· repre sents it--I think that the government should change.

At this time that's all I'll say. I think that the government should change its policy and that the people should not be discriminated against in boundary divisions because as I pointed out before that in other areas where the people did not accept division and that was the area that is represented by the Honourable Minister of Education . Th ey had a vote on that . They turned the division plans down.

True , that's a different plan , and as the Minister has himself state d, it's a superior plan to the school division, but I may be wrong , I will stand corrected, but I understand that they get the benefit of all the different grants . Now whether it's just because the Minister represents this area, I don't happen to be the Minister, I don't know. I'm not going to accuse the Minister of that . But I say that this is discrimination. The people of boundary--the proposed boundary division, are entitled to the grants . Whether they want to enter a division or not is beside the point.

They may have good reasons for not wantiilgto and I don't care if the Minister goes and accuse s me that I work against the divisions. The people across accused me in the last election hoping to defeat me by making those statemen ts. And I'm going to thank them very much for making these speeches and telling the people , especially in the western end, that he doesn't deserve your support be cause he worked against divisions . Some of those people especially in the western end, and I had a few of them coming up to see me about it, "But John, I voted Conservative the last few times but ivotedfor you this time .

Because why? Because the Minister told us that you were opposed to school divisions, and we are too." I keep telling them I wasn't, but evident lythey believed the Minister . I think at the present time that's all I have to say. I'll have a little more March 1st , 196 1 Page 3Sl

(Mr. Tanchak, cont'd. ) ••••• to say on the grants later and I hope that the Minister ••• rm sure that he's got a good heart, and I know it, and he'll see fit to have the grants applicable to non division areas. MR. D. ORLIKOW (St. John's): Mr. Chairman, members of the House heard an excellent report from the Minister last night --a long report, a detailed report, a report which justifiably listed considerable progress. I don't want to be critical of what the Minister said.

I do wish, however, that the Minister had spent some time in assessi ng the position of education in this province and indeed the position of education in this country as a whole. Because, Mr. Chair man, we are living in an age in which things are changing more rapidly than they have ever changed before. We are certainly in the age of the second Industrial Revolution and it is more es sential today than it has ever been that the people of this province and the people of this coun try be given the kind of education which will fit them to meet the requirements of this age.

Now the Honourable Member from Brokenhead mentioned briefly a comparison of what we are spend ing in Canada as co mpared to what they are spending in the United States for education, and more om inously, I think, much more ominously. what they are spending ln Soviet Russia. To compare what we are doing with what they are doing in Soviet Russia, Mr.

Chairman, does not mean that we agree with the kind of education which they are giving their people, but we agree with the emphasis on scientific and technical --the over-emphasis possibly --on sc ientific and technical education, but certainly in an age when we are competing for the uncommitted, for the millions and the billions in Africa and in Asia and in South America, the fact that we are spending four percent of our gross national product on education while the Soviet Union is spending 12% ought to give us all a good deal of concern. I'm not suggesting, Mr.

Chairman, that that can be solved here in this province, but I would have hoped that the Minister would at least have recognized the fact that we are a long way from doing in the field of education what needs to be done, and I would have hoped that the Minister would have said, if he has discussed this with the Federal Government who has the ability to find the money to put education on the par which it needs to be, that he has already discussed it with them, or poss ibly to say that he is thinking about discussi ng it with them. But of that, Mr. Chairman, we heard not a word.

Now what do we need in the field of education? Mr. Chairman, I came across a --I think an excellent

article by the Chairman of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dr. J. R ..•. •• The Speech which he made and which is reported in the magazine, Vital Speeches, for November 1st, 1959 --I want to read just a few sentences of what he lists as the importance of education for the age of science. And here's what he said, Mr. Chairman. "We have not yet adequately faced up to the fact that in the imme diate years ahead the ris ing number of students will outrun the supply of college teachers. At the college and university level teachers with PH.

D. degrees are important because of their extended training in scholarship and research. In the recent past, about 40% of such faculties have held PH. D. degrees but the prospects for the future are that there will be a substantial drop in this percentage. " Now this is what is happening in the United States, where they're spending twice as much of their gross national product for educa tion as we are, and certainly the same thing will happen, only to a greater extent, in Canada.

"Further", he says , and I quote, "we need to give more national attention to the quality and content of courses and curricula in high schools and colleges. We need extens ive organized national efforts to bring together in each subject field the leading scholars with groups of teachers and groups re-examining and moderniz ing the content of courses especially in the sciences. We need to bring about the preparation of more modern textbooks and to find ways of making available better, but less expensive , laboratory equipment.

" He say _ further, "A nation's responsibilities and opportunities in science have grown to the point where we find ourselves today with far too few first quality institutions of higher education in science and en gineering. We must foster and encourage in every way possible a high degree of scientific llteracy among people everywhere." Well, Mr. Chairman, I think that is a good statement of what we ought to be doing. Are we doing it? I don't think that anybody in this House who thinks about the problem, can fail to admit that we're a long way from this.

And this is true, not just of this province but of every province in the Dom inion of Canada. Mr. Chairman, we ought ot give some serious considera tion to what they are doing in the Soviet Union. I have here a little pamphlet called "Soviet Edu cation" , issued by the Social Science Institute in Harbourside , Maine ,a pamphlet written by Scott Neering, and I want to quote a few sentences of what he says is going on in that country to show you what can be done when people really believe that education is im portant.

Here is part of what he says, and I quote: "Perhaps the most notable feature of Soviet schools is they are Pa�® 3t!Z .March lst. 19E!l

(Mr. Orlikow, cont1d. ) ••••• free; from elementary school to unive rsity, no fees are charged. So far as I Imow, this is the first time that a school system has been open to its publ ic from bottom to top without payment by the individual . Soviet public auth orities have supplemented feeless education by taking the next decisive step in providing scholarships, stipends and allow �ilces covering board, lodging and incidental expenses with special bonuses to students who do outsta nding work.

Thus a serious student can go through the entire Soviet school system with out paying fees of any kind and with sufficient expense money to provide the necessities of life. " Now here is what they do in the field of encou raging people to go into teaching, Mr. Chair man, and I quote further: "Teachers in Soviet higher educ ational institutions are highly honoured, relatively well paid and supplied generously with equipment and facilities necessary for their work and encouraged to engage in research.

University professors are, in general, highly paid; a professor's basic salary is 6, 000 rubles per month, or at the official rate of exchange, $1, 500. 00. In contrast", and I think this is important, Mr. Speaker -- "In contrast", the

article goes on, "the typical practicing physician, lawyer or engineer earns not much more than half the basic pay of a professor". Now, Mr. Chairman, compare that with Canada. How much more can a physician in private practice in the Province of Manitoba make than the professor at the University of Manitoba teaching medicine? How much more can an engineer practicing his pro fession in private indu stry make more than the professor of engineering at the University of Manitoba? And this is true of every field in which one wishes to make comparison. Is it any wonder, Mr. Chairman, that they are making progress?

Is it any wonder that they are getting the best possible people to go into teaching? Mr. Chairman, we have a long way to go before we accomplish this, and I sugge st it ought to be our job to encourage the Federal Government to co-ope rate with the provinces so that we can get on with this job. Now the Minister made some reference last night to education and he seemed to infer -- I think he was only joking -- that almost everybody who wants to go to univ ersity in this country can do so. Well, Mr. Chairman, that is far from being the case. I have here the July 9th, 1960 issue of Saturday Night which has an

article headed "Higher Education for Money not Brains" by Robert F. Edison. I want to read just a few of the items which he says here, and I quote : "An exhaustive survey conducted by the Industrial Foundation on Educatim reveals, for instance, that in 1958 only 18% of all Canadian unde r-graduates received financial assistance as compared to the Engl ish figure of 74% for the same year." It is true that student aid in Canada has increased since 1958 but, Mr. Chairman, the aid is still very small.

He says further, ' ':'he Indu strial Foundation on Education has calculated that in 1958-59, scholarships and loans only' '·.:med a total of 7.5 % of the average stud ent's income. " Mr. Chairman, this is where we are at t;..-.present time so, while I certainly can agree with the Minister that we have made some progress, i "'" .nt to sugge st that we have a considerable way to go before we can really feel that we are doing the job which needs to be done in an age such as we are living. Now, Mr.

Ql..airman, I want to deal with some of the fields in which !think we are not do ing the job which we ought to be doing, and indeed we are not doing the job which this government said would be done. A few moments ago, when the Honourable Member for Emerson was speak ing and when he sugge sted that the financial arrangements which were being followed with regard to education were not what had been promised the people of Manitoba by this government, the First Minister suggested that he was not telling the truth, sugge sted that the government was, in fact, living up to its promises. Well, Mr.

Chairman, I have here, and I want to again repeat this because the Minister made this statement and he made it as the Minister and I assume he meant it, and I assume he meant that this would be the policy of the government, and I want to just quote from a speech which the Minister made in which he set forth I think -- and I'm sure all members of the House thought -- set forth what the objective of the government would be in the establishment of the new divisional plan and in the financial arrangements around it, and I want to quote , and this is from a speech which the Minister made on March 18th, 1959, Page 95 of that Hansard.

Here's what the Minister said, and I quote : "This plan will provide equal educa tional opportunities for children throughout the Province of Manitoba, particularly with respect to high school education. It will relieve in large measure the real property from the burden of school finance transferring a larger share to the taxpayer which we have in the Pro vince of Manitoba. " Well, Mr. Chairman, nobody would disagree that the province is paying more money. But what has happened to the promise that the local taxpayer would be paying March 1st, 196 1 Page 383

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd. ) .•••. less money through his local taxes ? I have here - and thls is the promise which the Minister made; the Minister can't say that we are mi sre presenting him. This is the promise which he made in Hansard, and I challenge him to deny it. I have here , Mr.

Chairman, a brief which was presented to the government by the Trustees of the Winnipeg School Divi sion in January of this year, and I don't think that the Minister or the members of this House can blame us in this group for the contents of the brief because in the years that I have been active in political life there have never been so few CCF members on the Winnipeg School Board as there are at the present time , so if there are faults we are certai nly not res ponsible for them.

But I want to read from that brief -- the Minister wlll note that I think the mem bers of the House have the right to know -- and here is a table which is in this brief show ing what has happened to the cost of education in the City of Winnipeg, and I want to just read from the table , the years 1958, 1959 , the est imates for 1960, and the estima tes for 1961: "Expenditures for education in the City of Winnipeg 1958 - $12, 306, 000; Government grants - $2, 365, 000; perce ntage of the total cost - 19. 21%. 1959 - Education costs in the City of Win nipeg - $14, 716 , 000; Government grants - $3, 340, 000; percentage paid by the province - 22 .7 0%. 1960 Estim ates ·_ Education costs - $16, 369, 000; Government grants - $4, 083, 000; perce ntage paid by the government - 24. 95%. 1961 Estima tes - " -- and I think this is the key -- "Expenditures estima ted - $17 ,6 23, 000; Government grants - $3 , 300, 000; perce ntage paid by the government - 18. 72% ." There -- so much, Mr.

Chairman, for the promises made by this government to the people of Winnipeg and to the other munic ipalities around Winnipeg and in other urban centres, that the local taxes that they would have to pay for education would come down. They are not coming do wn! In fact they are going up and I warned -- I, for one , warned the government two years ago that this must ine vitably happen.

The government ignored our observations . .The Minister -- I don't think he ev en tried to answer the reasons why this would happen which we explained in great detail and which they heard not only from us but which they heard from the local school boards -- it's inevitable that if the government grants per teacher go up $50 a year, as they do, while the annual increment goes up $200 or $300 a year, and this is the rate which has been negotiate d by all the school districts in the urban parts of Manitoba, it's inevitable that the cost to the local taxpayer must go up.

The Minister ought to have known it; he's a competent man; he didn't want to admit it, because it would prove two years ago what we now know is the case. So, Mr. Chairman, so much for his promise to the people of Manitoba and to this House that the taxes to the local ratepaye rs would go down. It was nonsense then and it is nonsense today. Now, Mr. Chairman , I want to deal with a few other matters which the Minister talked about.

The Minister talked about the fact that the educational system must stand or fall on the quality of the teache rs, and every body agrees with that, and it sound very nice until you: look at what is actually happening. The Minister talks about how proud he is -- and so he should be proud -- about the number of people who are at the Teachers• College . What he did n't tell us , Mr. Chairman, is that of the 560 students at the Teacher s' College in Tuxedo this year, only 35 have a complete matriculation Grade XII. Now, Mr.

Chairman, we did hear that they're ·· supposed to have a Grade XII, but they didn't tell us that they don't have to have -- if he did tell us, he did n't tell us what difference there is between the Grade XII they have and the mat riculation Grade XII. I am one, Mr.

Chairman, who thinks that we want to attract the best possi ble people into the field of education, and I believe that we won't do that until we stop cut ting corners, and until we stop saying to people - "You can come in and become a teacher ev en though you haven't got a complete Grade XII", which includes a language - the Matriculation · Grade XII.

I would like to know, and I think the Minister kl;tows, and I think the Minister has a respons ibility to tell this House , how many of the people at the Teach ers ' College , how many of the 560 who are there haven 't got a complete Grade XII, even of the kind that he talked about? How many of them have supps -- how many of them are carrying suppleme ntals ? How many of them haven't finished their course ? I don't think that people who haven't got a complete Grade XII should be in the Teachers' College at all. Now, it's true that if that happened we won't have enough teachers.

This was the ide a which the House used to be told by the former Minis ter of Education in the former government. I thought we had a government that was forward looking. I thought we had a government that was going to give a new look to education. I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that until the government puts its foot down that you will not get top Page 384 March 1st, 1961

(Mr. Orllkow, cont'd. ) .•••• quality people going into education, and I think the time to do it is now. In fact, Mr. Cha irman, I think it's long past the time when a Grade XII standing is enough to be a teacher in the Province of Manitoba .

I think the Provincial Government and this Minis ter ought to say now -- if he doesn't say it now I certainly hope he will say it next year -- that he has a plan whereby at inte rvals of one or two years it will require not only a Grade XII educa tion to be a teacher, but will require first a second-ye ar standing in univ ersi ty, and then a th ird-year standing , and the n a B. A. I think that teachers require that if they 're going to do a job for the students of this •••••. MR. McLEAN: We hope to be here that long. MR.

ORLIKOW: Well, I don't think you'll ever do it, but that doesn't mean that you ought not to do it. It just means that you don't really think that education is that im portant. -- (Inter jection) -- Well, if he did, he would do it. It's being done in other places and the re are Ameri can states wh ich are now requiri ng that, Mr. Chairman, and I'm sure the ·M inister knows which states they are. MR. McLEAN: , ••••••••••. in Russia? MR. ORLIKOW: In Russia, too, and in the Unite d States, and most provinces in Canada are ahead of Manitoba in which they require in the way of teache rs' qualifications. MR.

McLEAN: Oh no. No, not right. A MEMBER: Mr. Chairman , what provinces is he talking about ? MR. ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, I think that the Minister ought to say to the teachers who are teaching, who have conditional standing, who have supps, that th ey must get to work and complete the ir education, that they can't keep on teaching indefinitely unle ss they raise the ir stand ards. -- (Interjection) -- Oh no, I'm sorry, Mr.

Chairman, because what the Minister said,. he may have changed it yesterday -- I haven 't had a chance to read it in detail -- but what he said as reported in the newspaper a week or two ago was that people with com plete Grade XII would be given preference. Th at's all he said. He didn't say that if they didn't have a complete Grade XII they would n't be allowed in, and th ere's a vast difference because even the former Minister used to say that he gave preference, but he didn't do much about mak ing sure that they had the stand ing s. He just hoped they would, and th at's what he meant by th e preference.

Now, Mr. Chairman, while I'm on my feet I think that the Minister is making a serious mis take when he says, bi effect, that he doesn't look forward to an early movement of the Teach ers' College to the univ ersity. I don't know what objections he has to the moving of the Teach ers' College to the university. Of course it will cost money, but we are spending a sub stantial amount of money for education, and so we ought to.

I'm suggesting that we ought to be spendi ng more, and I can think of nothing that would help to increase the standards of the Tea ch ers' College and of teach ers' education than movi ng that institution on to the university cam pus where th ose people , if they weren't under the direct supervisi on and direction of the univer si ty, at least would be in contact with the unive rs ity organization and with the standards of the university. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to say something about curricul um.

I mentioned in be ginning my rem arks this afternoon that we are living in an age of change , and if this is true, and I'm certain that it is true , I think it requires a complete revis ion of the curr iculum of th is province, and I don't thi nk, Mr. Chairman, I joln with the Minister in giving credit to the teachers who are volun teering the ir services, who worked last summer in a semi nar and who worked weekends , who worked evenings on this job, but, Mr.

Chairman, surely if it is impor tant that the eurric ulum be brought up-to-d ate, the n we ought not to expect the teachers to do this job on a voluntary basis, and more important we ought not to expect it to be done in th eir spare time. Surely if it's important that th e curric ulum be modernized then it ought to be done by the Dire ctor of Curriculum having the staff to do this job in a syste matic and planned way.

And I would think that the proper metho d would be for the department to autho rize the Director of Curriculum to get the staff to take teachers who are now on the staff in the Province of Manitoba , or other people who are competent if we haven't got the m in th e province -- and I think we do -·- to say to tho se people, "We want you to work on curricul um; we want to re-or ganize the curriculum in history from the first grade in which we teach hist ory till Grade XII . We want to r·e-organize the curricu lum in arit hmetic , in mathe matics; we want to re -organize March 1st, 1961 Page 385

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd. ) .•••• the curriculum in languages, and we want you to begin the work now and so we are willing to ask you to take leave of absence from your regular work of teaching and we are willlng to pay you for a year, or however long it will take, to get the job done. " This is the way you get the curriculum changed, Mr. Chairman, if you really mean business, not by asking a few teachers or many teachers to give of their time voluntarily and in their spare time. This is what I would have expected from the former government. This is the way they used to work.

I certainly, having heard the eloquent speeches of this government, and particu larly of this Minister, I would have expected a good deal more from him, and I must say I'm disappointed -- well, the talk is different even if the action isn't different. Mr. Chairman, I want to say a few words about the need for research. Now I know that the Minister has on his staff a man who is called --I think it is the Director of Research. I am given to understand, Mr. Chairman, that the Director of Research cannot spend full time on research, that he has other responsibilities. I want to suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that the system of education is no different than any other organization, business or professional or anything else, which spends a large amount of money. Any efficient organization spends a pretty substantial and a pretty definite percentage of the money which it uses for research to make sure that it's doing a proper job, and I want to suggest that a part-time Director of Re search is not the answer to what is required in this province. For example, Mr.

Chairman, there's hardly a year goes by in which in some area, Winnipeg or some other area, when we don't get a report that this year in the Grade XI arithmetic or next year in the Grade X history we had 25 or 35 or 50 percent more people fail than failed the year before. Now, Mr. Chair man, I am not an expert and I am willing to accept the suggestion for discussion, at least, the suggestion of some people that the quality of our students is not what it was 25 years ago. But surely, surely the quality doesn't change by 25 or 30 or 50 percent from year to year and I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that what has happened is not that the quality of the students has changed but, in fact, that either the quality of the examination is changed or that the standards of marking have changed, and that this is what causes the so-called discrepancy. Now how do we get at this problem? I suggest, Mr. Chairman , that we get at it by some real basic re search on the whole question of examinations, so that we do, in fact, have some proper stan dards for setting the examinations and so that we do, in fact, have some proper standards for the marking of examinations. And I want to suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that we haven't got this today and we have never had thiS kind ofthirig today, because the people who s�tthe exa,miria-: tions Change from year"to year and-thEi" peop[e WUO "marnhe examinations change -from year_to __ - year, and the standards which they use change from year to year. It seems to me that the only organization which can get on with this job is the Department of Education and that so far it is not doing the job.

Another problem which I think is of importance, and I want to disagree with some of the other speakers who have spoken, is the question of the building of high schools for the divisional schools.

We in this group have always believed that if you are going to give a high standard of education to the students of this province, if you are going to raise the standards of the rural areas so it compares favourably with those of the urban areas, that it would require larger schools, and the government, when it accepted the recommendations of the Royal Commission on this matter in principle adopted this idea, and the grant structure gives some support to this idea, because the larger the school the larger the percentage of the grant, and schools of 12 rooms or more get the maximum grant of 75% approved by the department.

And yet despite this we have had in a number of divisions, the building of small high schools of five and six rooms. I am told that there is one division in which there are two small high schools only nine miles apart, even though there's a good road between those two areas. It seems to me that the government ought to be giving some serious consideration to what it can do to encourage the continuation of the building of the larger high schools, because this is of importance if we are to give the pupils the widest range of opportunity to take the kind of education which they require. I wonder, Mr.

Cha irman, also, whether the 12-room grant, the 75% 12 -room grant for mula is being rigidly adhered to in that the 12-room shall be in fact rooms which are used for classes, or is it a fact that included in the 12 rooms very often are libraries, gymnasiums and so on, so that in fact, instead of 12 teaching classrooms you get seven or eight or nine rooms. If this Is so, Mr. Chairman, I think this is bad, because it certainly hinders the rate at which Page 386 March 1st, 1961 . -

(Mr. Orllkow, cont1d. ) ••••• we will get the larger schools built. Mr. Chaf.rman, the Minister spoke, and I think with a good deal of pride, about the pro gram of transportation, about the large number of buses which are being used and the large number of slndents who are being transported by buses. I wonder though whether smaller buses and shorter bus routes might be more economical and more efficient than the present system which is being used. I think some survey ought to be made of that. I also wonder, Mr.

Chairman, I notice the Minister made an announcement some weeks ago that a program of in spections of buses and of bus drivers was being initiated. This is good. I wonder lf the Minis ter could tell us how long it will be before that program is completed. I would hope that the rate of the examination is a pretty rapid one rather than a comparatively slow and leisurely one. I would hope that it would be done at such a rate that we would not have in this province the kind of accident which took place some time ago in the Province of Alberta. Mr.

ChafLrman, I think that the success of the divis ional plan for secondary schools is such that we OLcght to be giving some very serious cons ideration to the question of consolidation. Now the Minister did report that consolidation is moving ahead. He gave figures last night, I think, as I remember, of about 150 consolidations last year. That sounds good, Mr. Chairman, but I wonder what percentage this represents in terms of the total, and more important, I would hope that the Minister is giving consideration to a program whereby the province will do for elementary schools what they did for secondary schools.

I don't mean by that that they get on with the job which will force consolidation immediately, but I would hope that they would develop a program whi,�h would encourage, very actively, consolidation . And I would hope that the rate of consolidatl.on at the elementary school level in the next three or four or five years would be a good deal more rapid than was the program of consolidation under the former government which left it almost entirely to the local school district to do this on their own. MR. CAMP BELL: As it should be. MR. ORJlJKOW: Well, as usual, Mr.

Chairman, if I ever wonder if I'm on the right track I only have to listen to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. If he and I disagree, I can assume 99% of the time that I'm on the right track, because I usually find that, in my opinion at least, he is us ually wrong. So when he says that they should have done it, I'm cer tain that I'm on the right track when I am urging this government to not follow the practice of the former government and to get on with the job of encouraging the local districts to get on with the job of consolidation. Well, Mr.

Chairman, I want to deal only with one more item which I think is of impor tance. I began the remarks which I made this afternoon with some reference as to what is done to the Soviet Union and as I did that, Mr. Chairman, on several occasions I heard members op posite jeer and scoff and bring up the Soviet Union. Mr. Chairman, I hope we are not going to emulate the United States or some sections of public opinion in the United States whereby you can prove that a thing is wrong just because the Russ ians are doing it. I think that we ought to learn from what is being done anywhere and everywhere.

Somebody once said they would take advice from the devil if it was good advice, and I think that one could well apply this in the field of education wl.th reference to the Soviet Union. I mentioned the fact that the Soviet Union is now providing free education to everybody from kindergarten to university levels. Now, just because they do it, Mr. Chairman, does not mean that we have to follow exactly; just because they do it, doesn't mean that it is bad. I think it's significant, Mr. Chairman , that the year in which the Soviet Union put into orbit the sputnik, the Unite d States put into orbit the Edsel car.

I think this is symptomatic of the different approach which the Russ ians have to educ ation and to which the Ameri cans, and unfortunately we, have to education. And Mr. Chairman, I must say that I am disturbed and distre ssed, and indeed shocked, when I look at these estimates to see that the amounts which the Minister had put into his budget for scholarships is no greater this year than it was last year. I'm not suggesting Mr.

Chairman, that the Province of Mani toba, that this government can solve the problems of education , can solve the problems of taking the need to have a rich parent in order to go on to university, to get rid of that com pletely. I realize that the problems of education can only be solved through federal-provincial co-operation. But, Mr. Chairm an, I think that we are not moving in the right direction in this field when the grants for scholarships remain in the year 1961 at the same place as they were in the year 19€10.

I think that this province and indeed all the provinces and the Federal March 1st, 19161 Page 387

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd. ) ••..• Government need to step up very substantially the assistance given to young people regardless of their means, to go on, not only through the public schools, not only through the high schools, but to the unive rsities of this country. This country is one of the richest countrie s in the world and, Mr. Chairman, I think for one that while the Minister has a good deal of jus tification in being proud of the beginning which he and his government have made, that we still have a long way to go before we will be meeting the educational needs of the young people of this province . MR. P.

WAGNER (Fisher): Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to take you or the members from east to west of the globe, I'll just take you down 50 miles north of Winnipeg. But before I introduce my topic which I want to speak on, the Minister of Education is very well aware of it. But just to give a little history of what happened when the school divis ion had been in pro cessing, the Ministers were out speaking and naturally they had with them most of the time the school inspector s, and myself as a rural re presentative. I tried to attend all of the meetings as possible. Because I had one reason.

I didn't attend meetings only in Fisher constituency but I attended in other constituenc ies, watching the people, listening to the question s, what has been taking place --information on the school division. I also attended one particular meeting at Teulon where our Honourable the First Minister was the guest speaker, and I was always in terested and I was always aware of this school divis ion which I support ed, and I am happy that it is here, but I was always safe with the road program, and naturally some of the people would venture to say, what have roads to do with education ?

As the Minister stated yesterday himself that the school bus is on the road but it is tied with the education , and in my opinion the roads are tied with the education also. Because if that equal education is going to be given, as the Member for St. Vital stated the other day --equalization of education , also taxation, has been a very great success. Well, I have a different viewpoint, and the right of transportation for each boy and girl has been preached; I have a different viewpoint on that also.

The Honourable Minister will remember when I stood up on this floor last session and I asked whether the voca tional training will come into the rural areas, particularly in those larger high schools. The Honourable Ministe r answered me that he feels that in 1960, Fisher Branch High School should have a vocational instruct or. He hopes that following the 1960 term it should be there. How ever it has to do with the connection of the Divisional Board.

Nevertheless the vocational training has not materialized the way I hear the honourable members are saying, in none of the schools in Manitoba, or if there are any, very few. So as far as we rural people, we must carry on without vocational training. However, Mr. Chairman , when I was referring myself to the roads, when the division was being formed nobody outside of this House stated that there was going to be a policy whereby students had to be in a certain school or in a certain area before they are going to be picked up by a school van or a school bus.

Nobody stated that a road is not going to be built unless there are five· students in the certain area, and nobody stated that the road is not going to be plowed unless there are five studen ts . And coming back to the five students , nobody said that if there will be five students and if they will be there at least for three years, then that certain district will qualify for a road as is being done now.

Well, my point is this , that the snow-plow operates under the Public Works Department; the school van operates under the Divisional Board's juris diction, and I hope that I am wrong ; I hope that there is some connection, because to my know ledge, and it has been brought to my attention even in this sessi on, a delegation was out from my rural area trying to get this road program under some kind of understanding that the school van would operate in conjunction with the snow plow.

Now the school van can go no matter if it's two students , three students or four students --that's to my knowledge, my understanding --but the snow plow is not going to go and the road is not going to be built. So on what road will that school van go when there is no road and there is no snow plow plowing that road, so that it seems to me that that equalization of education for rural and urban students does not substantiate an equality as has been preached.

However, there is a clause that in such cases as the snow plow or the school van cannot reach or shouldn't reach, or it would be expensive, the government is willing to pay $16. 66 per student boarding him out from his home. Well, I ask the Honourable Ministe r whether $1 6.6 6 is adequate to keep a student in any town for room and board, and if that is equalization of education. MR. S. PETERS (Elmwood): A day? Page 388 Ma.I:Ch 1st, 1961 •

MR . WAGNER: Per month. However, I also recollect very well the question period when it was opened, the school inspectors were very good with chalk and the blackboards, they were good with flgures, and they always calculated on those blackboards that the taxes are not going to go up. As a matter of fact, they should go down because it wUl be equalized to those people who are able to pay. However I settled down on those meetings that at least keep them at the level, and it's not so because I have here my own tax statement and I can prove that they are up.

And I understand from the Divisional Board that they are going to be still higher for the future years. So that is not as rosy as somebody wants to say. Now I hav'e one more item in my mind. I attended an Indian Conference here in Winnipeg, and I have attended quite a few already, and I was amazed how our official speakers and every body is concerned with the Indian education. But I wonder why our Indian students are being taken away from the reserves into other parts of Manitoba and they receive the education there.

Why don't these Indian students integrate with the white students and they attend those high schools closer lto the reservation rather than take them away from home? We have a few stu dents in Fisher Branch and they are very able students, and I pride myself to say that when they are out in sports they even outdo our own boys. So I'm very proud, but these students should have more access to our white schools. Now, Mr. Speaker, my colleague mentioned about bus drivers taking a test. Now in some cases I am being informed that out in rural areas it's not so easy to get a school van operator -- a school driver.

And I've been told by a few ward trustees that they have to go and get in touch "'-th the man whether he would accept to drive the school van, because due to the fact that the road conditions are very bad. So I would urge the Minister lf he is going to conduct a school bus driving test that he conduct this term -- before this term expires -- due to the fact because he is going to hire somebody giving a tender for next term, and then the driver wouldn't: qualify., and it's going to be just a burden for the trustee and the driver as well.

Due to the fact I say this, that they had a hearing in the Inter lake area -- a couple of hearings already -- on fast driving, and it has been drawn to my attention by these school van operators that they feel themselves that they wouldn't be able to qualify for such a test that is going to be conducted. Then what's going to happen? They are respectable drivers; they know how to drive a car, but possibly they cannot take their hands fast enough or make a curve enough; they may lose their driving licence. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, this test should be conducted.

At the same time I would venture to suggest to the Minister that if those drivers are going to be tested that they shouldn't be tested so detrimentally to the clause because we are not going to be able to find van drivers in rural areas, at least in some rural areas, and mine is one. Now, there's lot of thought going about building of high schools. And I' m just wondering if the Minister would like to answer me the question: What would happen in any school division if the school dilvision board passes a resolution that they want to build several schools in one division probably in one year?

Now I just wonder whether there is any rules and regulations. Naturally we have the building committee and I already understand that some of the divisions have been inspected and recommendation has been made, but however the division board seems to disagree. That's in my own opinion. That's how I was told.

Now let's take for example, lf these several schools should be granted and should be built in a certain division, then naturally when the five-year period -- this division is only on the ••.•• , .• , ••.• and should the people - and I hope they don't -- but should the people vote out the division and come back to the same standard as they were before, who ls going to pay for those newly-built schools ? The people that are living close to that district where the school is built, or all the people are going to be harnessed with or the province is going to be harnessed with?

So I just wonder what would be the case in that way. Now I would like to know if there are any rules and regulations, lf any ward trustee or a division board can tell any group of people or any group of children that you have to attend to such and such a ward to get your high school training, or you people have to put your children on a certain bus and go and attend to a different town rather than the people would Hke to have their students attend their town. I wonder if the ward trustee or the division board has that power. Now Pll just go into the elementary school.

Since the division board -- lt was brought to my attention -- the elementary school, the local school district, is still an autonomy ln itself, but somehow the grant, being very small, and some of the school districts find themselves that March 1st, 1961 Page 389

(Mr. Wagner, cont'd. ) •. .•• they have to go and borrow the money from the bank, pay the in terest to pay the teachers' salaries. And then naturally the grant comes at a later date but the interest has to be paid on it.

As a matter of fact I wanted to have some consultation with the Minister and one of the local school secretaries came along with me to Winnipeg, but I didn't make an appointment, and the Minister was not even in the City --I couldn't have a talk, but nevertheless we discussed it in the department, that there is an outlook of a few local school districts that they are going to shut down, they're going to form a larger district and they would wish to pool the reserve fund and transfer it into the payment of the school teachers' salary rather than go and borrow that money, and we were refused.

We were refused by the Department, but I stated in a later date I shall consult the Minister himself, and maybe we can come to some agreement. There's one letter I received not too long ago stating that an elemen tary school district can no more have an auditor or an accountant to check their books. It has to be a Chartered Accountant or an Auditor, as we call, to check the-financial statement.

And as in the past, anybody--(Interjec tion) --that's discussing money, my dear honourable colleague-sa what the local school district, like in rural areas - and I can say in Lakeshore Division there was some tussle and hustle abnut it because -they had to go out and get that chartered account- ant and pay him --like in the past, as I stated, for a number of years I know one school that was built in 1914 and it has been conducted very well, and yet today these people are penalized to hire a chartered accountant.

And I hope with these little few remarks, the Minister will take under observation, and believing he has conscience on the rural people I'm v·ery much in terested how the city members here fight for the rights of the education, but I would like to take them for a ride --and including the Minister -- the Minister comes from the rural area but he comes from the area where there is a municipality and the council is covering it up. I happened to be in ..••••.••• .• the other day.

That's the Honourable Member for Gimli's constituency, and I discussed with some councilmen there how they pick up their students and I rece ived very great co-operation. They say that they just pick up on the municipal basis and somebody has to pay, and it's not the government though. MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, I too wish to congratulate the Minister of Education on his good form that he was in last night when he gave that address to the House here. I enjoyed it very much.

A number of the things I was going to mention here this after noon have already been mentioned by other speakers previous to me. However, I wish to draw the attention to a number of points. I think the matter he mentioned last night that-the-depart ment officials had been available to the trustee. conventions-being -held last year,. I think.that it - was very well received. Our trustees appreciated that fact very much and I think it contributed to the conventions as such.

Then also, on the matter of the general course being delayed, I think it is well that it is because I don't think we should go hastily into any new venture before it's been _taken a good look at from all sides. I was interested when the Minister gave those figures on the various school divisions, on the number of schools that have been set up and the new plants that have been built, and the increase in enrolment that has taken place in our high schools in the province. However, I just wonder how many of the divisions did acquire the schools that were in existence in their particular division.

How many of them did build new plants and how many acquired the plants that were in existence, and whether the same assist ance was given to these divisions that acquired existing plants. Then also, I would like to know how many were refused to build that wanted to build both division boards as well as school dis trict boards, because we have a committee at the present time that is looking over the various projects that these various school boards want to build and the committee then makes sugges tions to them, and I suppose also decides whether they will get assistance or not.

The Minister also mentioned that there were not quite enough inspectors to go around to have an inspector for each division. I hope that he will see to it that there will be one inspector available for each division next year, and I think he indicated to that extent, because I think this is a requirement and this is a request that has been made at various regional trustee meet ings in the province where they did not have an inspector of their own. I will also go along with what the Member for Turtle Mountain said, in that smaller divisions are required.

As most of you members will know we had Boundary Commission hearings in the southern part of the country and at these hearings representation was made by the high schools in those non division areas requesting smaller divisions, and I think that if this was done it would be to Page 390 March 1st, 196 1

(Mr. Froese, cont'd. ) ••••• better advantage for the people in the division. The slze of the divis ion requested at one of those hearings includ ed, I think, 70 teachers with an assess ment of around $8 million. Surely this is a large enough group and the assessm ent ls high enough to warrant a dt.vision in that area. I am sure that sometime ln the future this will have to be corrected and that smaller divisions will be available to the people ln the provinc e.

I was also well- impressed that the Minister stated that the qualiflcations to students en tering Teache rs' College would be raised to a clear and comp lete Grade XII. I think we have to strive for higher quallfications as we go along and that this is being done in a gradual way. I think it's very well, but what happens to these students when they come out of high school and suppos ing they've failed in one subject or two ? What is being done to accomm odate those people so that they will be able to make right that additional subject or that subject before the Teachers' College commence s?

Is something going to be provided for those students so that they will be aceomm odated and that they will be able to re-write exams and will have a place to go to to get spec ial instructions on those subjects that they failed? I think this is a worthy thing that should be looked into , and whether something shouldn't be done. I know of other provinc es that are doing something in this regard and who have had very good results. Now, I come to another point and that is school grants . At this time I don't wish to go into the matter again as I have done on previous occa sions .

I notice that the estimates call for an increase ln school grants of over half a million. Now is provision being made for the non division areas, that they will receive the same teacher grants that are being given to the divi sion ar eas ? -·- (Interjection) -- It's just sl ightly under half a million, I'm sorry. It was brought to my attention here. But it's close to half a million anyway. I think the way it's being carried on now, that the discrim ination that is being carried on, a lot of our teachers that have years of experience are subject to lower salaries in the non-division areas

whereas those teachers in divis ions will get the school grants quite readily and therefore receive the higher salary. And there is no sound reason why this is not being extended to the non-d ivision areas. I just hope that the Minister has made provision in this inc rease in school grants so that there will be a provision for the non-division areas. I expect to have some more words on that when we discuss that particular item under the Estimates. I would also like to mention the cost of educating a high school student in the non- divisi on area down in our part of the province.

It has been much less than those in divis ion areas. I have been informed by the trustees, the high school trustees of our area, that in a number of cases the cost for educating a high school student is not even half as much as those in divisi on areas. Does this mean that those grants , those funds are being used loosely or just what is the reason for that? I'm sure the Minister must have those figures, and I'd be interested to know the relationship and the incre ase in cost in other areas to that of the non-division.

Surely our schools ar•3 up to standard and we're giving the services required under The Manitoba Pub lic Schools Act so that we're doing our duty and we're giving the services needed in that regard. I think it's a matter that we should always look at to keep the costs of the services that we're providing to a minimum and not spend money unne cessar ily and unw isely. The Member for Fisher raised a point which has also been brought to my attention back home, and that is the matter of school audits.

As you members will know, under The Public Schools Act, it is required to have one auditor elected by the electors at an annual meeting and another one appointed by the school board to audit the books of a school district. Then this re port is received at the annual meeting and adopted by the annual meeting. Now under the new legislation it is required that a Chartered Accountant or a government-approved

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-3-14
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Volume / chapter	26th 3rd hansardpdf 14.pdf
Language	en
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