PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 39 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, APRIL 17, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

April 17th, 1970 The House met at 3 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 530 JM -1 BON. J.R. SMALLWOOD (PREMIER): Mr. Speaker, I know that the bon. members are happy over the safe return of the three astronauts. Most of us were able to watch the descent and the splashdown on television before we came in.to the Chamber and since we came into the Chamber I understand that the door has been opened, the hatch has been opened and they are now out and safely aboard the raft on the way to ~he mother ship. This is the happy news for them and for American, for mankind and I am sure we are all very happy about it. Mr.

Speaker, I have the report proceeding the resignation of the Hon. the Mininster of Fisheries and the member for the district of Ferryland in a letter to me as follows: '~y Dear Premier, I have been asked if I would accept an appointment to be the President of the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation just authorized by legislation of the Parliament of Canada and after a good deal of consideration I have come to the decision that I should accept this position.

It is with regret, therefore, that I ask you to accept my resignation as a member of your Cabinet. ~ h'i's.-I have today tendered my resignation to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor as a member of the House of Assembly. Four years ago in the summer of 1966 you did me the high honour of asking me to stand as the Liberal candidate for the district of Ferryland. You also did me the high honour of asking me if I would join your administration and serve as a member of the Cabinet. Almost my entire life up until that point had been spent in one connection or another with the fisheries of Newfoundland.

Your invitation gave me an opportunity to continue in this connection and to help to shape policies and programs for the benefit of our fishermen and the fishing industry. The years since then have been full and busy for me. I have enjoyed working with you and with our colleagues and with the Government of Canada who share our common interest in the development of our fisheries. One of the major programs for which I worked on behalf of Government 2313

April 17th, 1970 MR. SMALLWOOD: Tape 530 JM- 2 was the Salt Cod Fish Marketing Board. I share your conviction that the salt fish industry is vital to our economy and can continue to provide profitable employment for many of our people for years to come. I feel I can contribute to the task of reviving this industry through the new legislation and for this reason I have made my decision to accept the position offered to me. While I have made this decision I must say that I treasure greatly my association with you and our colleagues and I have enjoyed immensely my work as a member of the Government.

Equally great are my feelings of respect and gratitude for the people of the district of Ferryland who elected me to the Bouse of Assembly and who have continued to give me their support. I have come to know many of these fine Newfoundlanders who live between Bay Bulls and St. Shotts intimately in the past four years and I look forward to many years of friendship with them. May I, in closing, thank you for the kindness you have shown me personally. I have been proud to serve under your leadership and in common with your many friends throughout the Province.

I hope and trust that you will enjoy many years of health and happiness. To this I have sent the following reply: ''My Dear Aiden, Sincerely yours, Aiden Maloney." I am, of course, not surprised but I am deeply grieved by your retirement from the Cabinet and from the House. Not surprised for, of course, I have known it for weeks past. All our colleagues in Cabinet and Party have mixed feelings about your retirement. We are most unhappy to lose you but happy for Newfoundland's sake that you are to take over active - management of one of the most important bodies ever formed in this Province and this country.

I shall always remember w~h gratitude your devotion to duty in Cabinet and House and your unfailing personal loyality to me. You will continue 2314

April 17th, 1970 MR. SMALLWOOD: Tape 530 JM- 3 to serve Newfoundland, Newfoundland's Salt Cod Fishery and Newfoundland's fishermen with the distinction that we have all learned to expect of you. Cordially yours, Joseph R. Smallwood." I circulate copies of this correspondence, Mr. Speaker.

I need add no wor4s to these letters except to say that I am sure the House learns with the same mixed feelings that we feel we share in this Cabinet and on this side of the House, mixed feelings of regret that the House has lost a valuable representative but Newfoundlanders gained a magnificent man to run one of the greatest ventures that we have ever known in our history that may indeed produce tremendous results for the salt cod fishermen of Newfoundland. Results that may indeed lead to similar work being done for the remainder of our great fishing industry, the fresh and frozen fish aspect of it. MR. A.J.

MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I would like also to congratulate in the first instance, the former Minister of Fisheries. I feel it is a very, very important post to fill and I think all in this House feels that perhaps maybe the salvation of our fishery, I think it will give to our fishermen a brighter outlook on their efforts.With the departure of Mr~ Malo~ey I feel that the House has lost a very valuable member and contrary to what I heard on radio today our praise and admiration for Mr. Maloney did not start with the announcement this morning.

I: think it was a rather s,erious statement to make that the Opposition are very happy indeed, at this time, to congratulate Mr. Maloney but while he _was serving as a Cabinet Minister he received,and this was intimated, nothing short of abuse. So, Mr. Speaker, I would like to wish Mr. Maloney the greatest of success in his new appointment and I am sure, knowing the gentleman as I do, that everything that he does will be in the best interest of his native land. MR. J.C. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of th~ Independent Liberal Group we would certainly like to add our congratulations to this appointment.

As I said a few days ago when we were debating the Salt Fish Marketing Act rumors 2315

April 17th, 1970 MR. CROSBIE: Tape 530 JM- 4 were current then that our past member from Ferryland would be the appointee and quite frankly I cannot think of anyone in the Province who would be better suited to that job than Aiden Maloney and we are delighted to see him get the appointment and have every confidence in him that he will do an excellent job as President of the Salt Fish Marketing Corporation. After having served two years in the Cabinet with him, Mr.

Speaker, I can only say that I have always found him to be a hard worker, cool-headed and capable, not rattled, usually a fount of great common sense and one of the memories of that time in the Cabinet that I treasure is the association with Aiden Maloney. These words of praise for the past member for Ferryland are nothing new from this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, and nothing new from myself in particular because I never remember having anything critical to say about Mr. Maloney at all. So we are very happy to see that he has been appointed and that it is confirmed.

We think that he is engaged on a task that is of the upmost importance to Newfoundland and to the fishermen of Newfoundland. As, I said earlier we can think of no-one we would sooner see with the appointment and we feel sure that in the coming years he will amply justify our confidence in him and will carry out his new duties with a great measure of success and we wish him well. 2316

Tape no. 531 Page 1 April 17th., 1970 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, we are on a very unusual course, if I may add to it by saying a word or so in behalf of the Government and in behalf of those of ~s who knew him and worked closely with the former member for Ferryland, Aiden Maloney, over the years. He will be a loS$ to the House and to all of us, Sir, and the Premier has eloquently expressed our feelings. To that I can add only, as I mentioned the other night, for nothin~ less than the Salt Fish Corporation, should he have left us.

Aiden }~loney has spent his life working with the fishermen of this Province and I think all of us can understand why he felt that he had to accept this crutially important appointment, and I know I speak for everybody on this side, as the Premier has already said, when I wish him God speed, and if it is appropriate in the fish industry, "Long may his big jib draw." HOO F. W. ROHE (~nister of Education):Hr. Speaker, the House is aware that the Government, as a result of the approval of this House, is able to pay to the mothers of Newfoundland, a sum of money in behalf of their children in schools.

That payment of fifteen dollars a year for each child is sent out in two installments. The first usually the latter part of November and the second as early as possible in the new financial year and I am now very happy to be able to announce that we have received many queries about this, and I am sure all other hon. members have received queries about it. One only needs to listen to the radio at times, open line programs, to realize how interested the mothers are in this assistance, small as it is.

I am very happy to announce that starting yesterday, we were able to put :.15,000 cheques in the mail and this process is being continued today and will be continued until all 70,000 cheques are in the mail, which means that we hope by Tuesday afternoon, all 70,000 cheques to the 70,000 mothers representing the 160,000 pupils in our schools, all those cheqses will be in the mail. I•would appreciate it, knowing how many mothers are interested in this, I would 2317

Tape no. 531 Page 2 April 17th., 1970 tbt ~Lr appreciatehof the news media, Mr. Speaker, in giving that information out. First that the process of mailing the cheques is started and did start yesterday and secondly and this is themore important aspecy all the cheques are not going in the mail at the one hour,af the one day. It is a process which has to take four or five days and this is important.

It is important that our ·. parents understand that; otherwise half the mothers in a community on Monday morning may have their cheques and the other half become alarmed and start telephoning or sending telegrams or making contacts in other ways as to what has happened to their cheques. The total amount, for .. 'the information of the House, the total amount for the years which has been paid out, or has been paid out to the mothers is $2,344,000.

The first cheque for a child is $11.50 and the sec~nd cheque represents the remaining three months of the school year, April, May and June and is, therefore, for $4.50 and the total value of the cheques going in the mail today, in the next couple of days will be almost exactly $700,000. All of our mothers who have applied and I think by now every mother in the Province just about has applied should have their cheques then early next week or certainly sometime during the comi~g we~k. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, on Tuesday passed, Sir, while speaking in the debate on the Address in Reply, the member for Placentia tvest, my hon. friend made certain statements about the hospitals located at Placentia Come-by-Chance, Burin and Grarid Bank. These statements, Sir, have been widely reported throughout the Province and the Government feel that we must now make some comments upon these reports. At the outset, Sir, may I stress that my colleagues and I agree with my friend, the member for Placentia West that the health facilities available to his constituents should be improved.

We have improved them substantially in the past few years, as the member stated, and we intend to improve them further. I would welcome, we would welcome any suggestions or comments from the member for Placentia tvest or from any hon. member which would help us to achieve this end, and I ardently support his desire to improve the 2318

April 17th., 1970 Tape no. 531 Page 3 services available to his constituents. The member, Hr. Speaker, said that he knew patients who had suffered because of bad medi~al services. He said that he . knew three specific cases. With his consent, I asked him a question, the question was: "would the member supply me with the details?" The hon. gentleman said that he would, but I have not as of this moment eeceived any such details. When I receive them, they will be investigated fully in the same way as any complaint which is made to me or to any of my ~officials is investigated. \t If further action is necessary, Mr.

Speaker, it will~taken. Having said that, I must go on to make the Government's position with regard to this matter, crystal clear. The medical services available to the people of the Burin Peninsula are at least as good as those available to the people of any comparable part of this Province. The doctors and the nurses in the cottage hospitals involved are well trained, they are dedicated to their work and they are performing their duties in superb fashion._ The member pointed this out in his speech. The physical facilities themselves are adequate and they are in the best condition~ that they have ever been in.

No evidence and I stress this, Sir, no evidence has been produced of any sort to support any charge of needless suffering or of any inefficiency. There has been no evidence at all to support any charge that the people being served by these hospitalE are not receiving medical treatment at a very high level. MR. Speaker, I am quite proud to be the Minister - of Health who has the responsibility for the administration of hospitals that are performing a service as fine as that being performed by our hospitals in Newfoundland and Labrador. The staff both medical and .nonprofessional are absolutely first rate.

Better physical facilities are needed, and we intend to provide them as quickly as our means permit. In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, I must make it clear that I have no evidence of any sort to support any charges of the nature that have been reported publicly. If any person 2319

April 17th., 1970 Tape no.531 .Page 4 has such evidence, I would ask him to let me bave it and as I have said immediate and full and thorough investigations will be made and the appropriate action taken. PRESENTING PETITIONS }ffi. B. J. ABBOTT: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present a petition in behalf of the people of Trinity, Centreville, Wareham and Indian Bay of Bonavista North. The prayer of this petition, Sir, is that minimum medical services be provided for that particular area.

I understand that a deputation from that area visited the Department of Health last year or some twelve months ago and made a similar request to the department. They were told that before a doctor could be obtained, it was necessary to assure the doctor or assure the department that a clinic was available at that place. The committee returned to Centreville and obtained a clinic or a building. the building has since been inspected by officials from the Department of Health, and I understand from the petition the building has been approved.

A few weeks ago, it was reported so the petition reads that the Government this year would be building some clinics in different parts of ~ewfoundland. The prayer of this petition is that: Centreville, Wareham, Indian Bay or that particular area, the building which ·they have selected, which the Department has approved would be purchased by the Government to serve as a clinic. Mr.

Speaker, I have much pleasure in supporting this petition and asking that it be laid on the table of the House and referred to the Department to which it relates~ }ffi.::..J'PJ::~R_:_:- ~rt .: is - moved and seconded that this petition be received

April 17th. 1970 Tape 532 PK - 1 l!' I P$11-.: and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. HAROLD COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise in support of the petition just presented by North. }~ny of those people I understand the hon. member from Bonavista 11,c'K comeAand forth to the hospital at Gander, of course with the rather impossible road conditions in that area, there is certainly a need for _ at least clinical services in Trinity, Centreville and Wareham and Indian Bay.

And on behalf of the members on this side of the HousefSir, we would like to support the petition which was presented. MR. JOHN CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise and support this petition also, the petition is signed by about 600 residents of the Trinity, Wareham, Centreville area of Bonavista North. And I believe it was circulated by the District Improvement Association or Local Improvement Association they now have in the area. ~ think there is no question, but that they could certainly use the services of a doctor in that area.

And if they are going to secure a doctor in that area of course, he has to have·a residence and a clinic to operate from. And in view of the fact that the Government is encouraging the establishment of more medical clinics in the Province, I think there is one mentioned for Marystown, and one for Deer Lake, and other areas, and this is an area that could well use a medical clinic. The people have shmm their interest in the idea there, the need is there, and I therefore, am very pleased to support the prayer of the petition, and support the learned colleague in his request to the hon. Hinister of Health. ~ffi.

ROSS BARBOUR: Hr. Speaker, seeing how I am a native son of Bonavista North, I know the area from St. Brendan's to Cape ·Freels in Bonavista North. And seeing that I ~~ow Centreville, Trinity, and Wareham for those any man in this bon. House, I can realize their phlight for the need of medical services. It is true we have a cottage hospital at Brookfield, which is doing a terrific service for the people in Bonavista North, and it is also true like the hon. member for Gander said, some of the patients go to Gander. MR. COLLINS: Over impassible roads. 2321

April 17th. 1970 Tape 532 PK - 2 }ffi. BARBOUR: I beg your pardon? MR. COLLINS: Over impassible gravel roads. MR. BARBOUR: Like all gravel roads, Mr. Speaker, there are certain times in the season of the year, when they become a little rough. So the road in Bonavista North sometimes is as good as any other gravel roads in any other district, out of the forty-one districts in this Province. But, Sir, I do not lvant to get away from the prayer of the petition. I appreciate the hen. member for Bonavista North, who also lived in that district for a number of years, as a school teacher.

No doubt he knows a lot about it. But, as I said, seeing that I do come from Bonavista North, being born at Newtown, which is only about an hour's drive or an hour and a quarters drive to Trinity, t~areham and Centreville. I am very happy indeed at this time, Mr. Speaker, to support the peoples petition in the area concerned. HON. EDHARD M. ROBERTS: (MINISTER OF HEALTH:-) Mr.

Speaker, if I may be permitted to add a word or two in the debate in the motion before the House Sir, I of course look forward with pleasure, I assume the motion will be adop~ed, it would be most unsual if a motion and a ~etition be received, ever was defeated. I look forward to having the Clerk of the House send me the petition, and of course it will be studied with great care and attention. As the hon. member for Bona~ista North, may I say how glad I am to see him back in the House, I think he was here yesterday, but it has been some while since he has been with us.

As the hon. member said in outlining the petition and in speaking in favour of it, there has been a great deal of correspondence and study go into the question of medical services in Bonavista North with the past year or so. I have seen two or three extensive reports, and I had considerable correspondences with Town Council, Community Council, and people in the area, and I think probably the Local Improvement Committee to which the hon. member from St. John's \Vest referred. I do not have specific details of how many doctors we now have in the

April 17th. 1970 Tape 532 PK - 3 area Mr. Speaker, but I am under the impression that there are now more doctors on the northside of Bonavista Bay, if he wish to take the area from Gambo to Brookfield, where the cottage hospital is located, than there have been for many years past. There is probably not as many Mr. Speaker as there were fifty years ago, when Greenspond was at its height, and when the north shore supplied the coastal boats captains, and the railway captains, and the north shore of Bonavista Bay is a very famous area. Mr. Speaker, there is I believe a doctor at Gambo, practicing in _ a clinic.

There is a·doctor at Hare Bay, Dr. Maddick. There are three doctors I believe at the Orookfield Cottage Hospital, two, three, I rather thought three, but I am not as intimately aware as the hon. gentleman is of course. There are more than ever before/}!r. Speaker. I do not doubt that people would like to have a doctor closer to them, of course if that can be done it will. It can be done, Mr. Speaker, only if on a priority bases a.fter we reviewed the needs throughout the Province. lve come to the conclusion that Centreville will be the area most in need of a doctor.

We are in short supply of doctors again)Sir, the supply is much better than there has been. There are twenty-five doctors more practicing in Newfoundland now, than there were a year ago. It is the largest increase we had, M.r. Speaker, in many, many years. Twenty-five more came in this year. We are looking at a number of areas throughout the Province now, my own district, Roddicton and Englee, the St. Barbe Coast, the Straits, out on the Bill of Cape St. George, in the district of Port au Port, Kings Cove in the district of Bonavista South, a number of districts. 7 l'!r.

Speake~, and if this motion is accepted by the House, I can assure to the House, and particularly the hon. member, that the needs of the people who signed this petition will be considered. Indeed, }!r. Speaker, as they are already are being and have been. It gives me much pleasure as well to support this petition. }ffi. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that this petition is received and referred to the department to which it relates. 23:23

April 17th. 1970 Tape 532 PK - 4 PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT CO~~ITTEES RON. ERIC DAHE: (1'-!UHSTER OF HUNICIPAL AFFAIRS): Nr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the following Protective Road Orders. Protective Road Area No. 1, 1969. Designated as protective roads; Buchan's Highway, Gander Bay Road, New Long Harbour Road. Protective Road Area No. 2, designated as protective high~vay between the Head of Bay D' Espoir and St. Alban 1 s.

Protective Road Order No. 3, a new description 6f the Foxtrap Accessroad, and Protective Road Order No. 4, rescinding a development area, Bay D'Espoir Order 1965, and development area, Bay D'Espoir Regulations,l965. NOTICE OF MOTION MR. SHALLHOOD: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move the House into a Committee of the ~~ole, to consider certain resolutions in relation to the granting of Supplementary Supply to Her Majesty, for the financial year ending the 31st. day of March, 1970.

And I propose that on Tuesday, but I propose also on Tuesday to invite the Shaheen Group into the Chamber for a meeting of the Committee of the Whole, in private session, to hear a report on the progress made on the Oil Refinery. I can only invite them, and the House will decide about the procedure to be followed. We would meet on Tuesday afternoon and Tuesday night, if necessary we could meet on Wednesday morning, and Wednesday afternoon, and possibly \-lednesday night, is private members day, and the House will have to decide what to do about that.

I give notice that I will on tomorrow move the House into Committee of Ways and Means, which is the occasion for the bri~ging down of the Budget, and I propose that that be brought down, that motion to be moved on Thursday. I give notice that I will on tomo.rrow move the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the \-lhole to supply certain resolutions to the granting of Supply to Her Najesty, that is to say the tabling of the estimates which I propose also to move on Thursday. According to this procedure, Mr.

Speaker, the House is not to meet on Monday which is Empire Day, unless the House would desire to meet on :londay, 23~4

April 17th. 1970 Tape 532 PK - 5 ~ a' ·~:&&: which is quite agreeable to me. But if not on Monday, then to meet on Tuesday afternoon and Tuesday night, and it could meet if the House desired on Wednesday morning, and certainly it will meet on Wednesday afternoon, and if it wishes Wednesday night. And it could also meet on Thursday morning. On Thursday afternoon, I propose to have the Budget brought down together with the estimates. And then the House will meet also on Friday afternoon. MR. ANTHONY J. rillRPHY: Mr. Speaker, may I be permitted a question on the motion.

With reference to the private session the Premier intimates that it might be Tuesday afternoon, we will not get a chance to discuss the motion as such on that time, and I do not know if we could perhaps try to put forward an idea,our idea of a pirvate session at this time, or just what the situation will be. MR. SPEAKER: l~at is the wish of the House in this matter, does the House wish to discuss now or at a later date the advisability of meeting in the form of a meeting,which the meeting will take so on and so nn.

As the hon. member has pointed out there may not be any opportunity to discuss this, if it ts proposed to do this on Tuesday, it will be too late to make the decision on it, on Tuesday. But that is for the House to decide now. }m. SMALLWOOD: Perhaps)Mr. Speaker, this could be discussed later in the day, after the hon. gentleman has had a chance to reflect and perhaps confer and some ideas be formulated and clarified as to the procedures that might be followed on Tuesday. The intention is to have the Shasheen Group here, if:hey will arrive on Monday night 2325

April 17, 1970 Tape /1533 Page 1 "''' P'W'lt"fJ: ~d they will meet the Cabinet and the Liberal Party caucus on Tuesday forenoon. They will be available to come to the House in private session at any moment thereafter, so far as they are concerned. Now of course it is not only they who are concerned, this House is concerned, but they are willing so far as time is concerned, they are quite willing o.t to meetj,the convenience of the House, and to meet the House on the time that is suitable to the House. The proposal that I made was that the Shaheen people should meet the House in Committee of the Hhole in private.

There has been a suggestion that the House going into Committee of the Whole might, in fact be the House ~vith Your Honour in the Chair, but with the rules of Committee. The rules of the Committee of the ~~1ole prevailing, so that with the House meeting ~vi th Your HcYnour in the Chair, the rules that ~1ould prevail in Committee of the lo!hole uith its greater freedom, much greater freedom of debate and questions, and how often any one hon. member might speak, prevailing so that it 'vould not be too stiff and formal, where one man could speak once and that ~vas it.

If the rules of Committee of the Hhole were applied with Your Honour in the Chair, and that is a matter for · the House to decide. If the House ~•ishes to that, they can do so. Perhaps the matter can be left over until later in the afternoon and we might revive the matter and discuss it and with the general consent of the House. MR.

SPEAKER: May I say this, ~vhile hon. members vrill have an opportunity a little later to bring this matter to its conclusion a little later on in the session, it might be advisable possibly for all bon. members to consider that it not be a sitting of the House, but a meeting of members of the House. It would not be a regular sitting of the House, but a meeting of the members of the House vlith all the rules pertaining to the House, v.·hich means Committee of the l~ole applying, rather than have it on the record, ~vith the Hace on the Table as a re.gular sitting of the House.

I just put this fon;ard as possibly a hetter sur;p;esti.on, anc1 I do it for this reason. that members ~vho are not members of the Hom~e, havinR the rip.ht to come on this floor and make speeches. and the neonle that are coning in. They are 2326

April 17, 1970 Tape //533 Page 2 not witnesses \vhich are called before the bar of the House. So I think that possibly if hon. members \VOuld consider this point of vie"', a meeting of the members of the House to secure, and I understand it is for the JW securing of information, and for the purpose of asking questions and so on. But just a meeting of the members of the House with all the rules of the House pertaining thereto, especially the rules relating to the right to speak more than once on a particular subject as we do when we are in Committee of the Hhole.

Because.in the Committee of the Hhole House, the rules of the House apply just as well as they do in the House, with regard to procedure and decorum. So I put that forvrard as a suggestion so that ''hen '"e come to consider the matter a little later in the sitting. The hon. members may make up their minds as to which way they want it done. HR. CROSBIE: Of course as yet we have not been consulted on this private session, and so what position \ve will take, \·Te "ill have to decide later, but I would like to point out Mr.

Speaker, that so far \ve have received no information in advance, and no documentation to study or anything of that nature. It tvould be very useful if there tvas going to a meeting with' Hr. Shaheen and his associates. And the second poin) Hr. Speaker, is that we would have some views as to whether it should be a private session or not, or how it should be conducted. So this consultation is certainly necessary, because the information is certainly not just for the members of the House. The information should be for the public of Netvfoundland.

But one question on another aspect of the Premier's announcement, I think that the hon. the Premier said that the Budget would be brought down ·on Thursday, and that the House would meet on Friday. I thought it was the custom that v;hen the Budget was brought do~m to adjourn for a day or so, so the Opposition could study the Estimates. Answers to Questions: HR. SHALLHOOD: ~lr. Speaker, Question No. (303) on the Order Paper of /mril 8, in the name of the hon. the member for Fortune Bay. The anstver is that positions outside St. John's and those within the City \vhich are specifically 2327

JH April 17, 1970 Tape 1/533 Page 3 requested by departments are advertised by the Civil Service Commission. I have pleasure in tabling the Annual Report of the Civil Service Commission. There are not enough to go around, hut enough to-go around to all hon. members and the press will be distributed next 't-7eek. Mr.

Speaker, I was asked in the House the other day if I \>7ould table information ~vith regard to the experience and status of the Jacob's Engineering Company who are doing the independent study for the Government of the UOP Feasibility-Report of the Oil Refinery in Come-by-Chance, and I have pleasure in doing it here - I have only one copy of each document.

Qualifications and-experience, Jacob's Engineering Company, engineers, constructors, and refinery management company, that is Jacob's EngineerinR Company have as a ~~holly mvned subsidiary, a company ~.,hich manages refineries, and the plenitude of their experience is described in this report. I have pleasure in laying it on the Table of the House, Hhere han. members may have access to it. MR. DAWE: Hr. Speaker, in ansHer to question (462) asked by the han. member for St. John's Hest on today's Order Paper. I table the answer to this question. HR. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker, I have the ansHer to Question No. (475) on today's Order Paper, asked by the han. member for St. John's \-Jest. The answer to Part (1) is "no."' Part (2) ''none." Part

(3) Not apP,licable. I also have the ans~ver to Question No. (469) asked by the hon. member for Bonavista North, and former minister of Public Welfare. It concerns the publication of a bouse organ in my department that ~vas not started by me. I presume it was there when the hon • .nember was minister of that department, and the han. member for Fortune Bay was minister of that department. The ans1ver to Part (1) is six editions. 500 copies each edition. 3,000 copies for the year.

Part (2) 500 members and ex-members of the Department of Public Welfare staff, and I presume the tHo han. gentlemen under this name receive a copy, as the former ministers of the department. neputv '-rinisters of other departments.- Department of National Health and Helfare. Other provincial and federal and voluntary social welfare agencies in Newfoundland and other 23-28

JW April 17, 1970 Tape /1533 Page 4 provinces of Canada. And thirty copies are left at the minister's office to be distributed at his discretion. Part (3) the question should be directed to the !Iinister of Supply because we use our own facilities to publish this house organ. The answer to Part (4) is the Director of Training and Research; seven hours. Typists: ten hours. Part (

S) sixty- five dollars. MR. R01vE: Mr. Speaker, I have the ans,ver to Question No. (443) on the Order Paper of April 1~, asked by the hon. member for Burin. T'vo parts. Hm.r many schools were constructed in Ne,vfou11dland during the period April 1, 1969, to March 31, 1970. And give the name and location of each school. This is not as simple as it looks; Mr. Speaker, because I am not sure of what is meant by the '"ord ''constructed." Most schools are not constructed in any one calender year. Usually they are started in one year and finished in the next.

Sometimes of course they are started and not finished. \Vhat I have then decided to do, and I do not knmv if this "'ill ans,ver the question or not. If not I can always get the other information. And may I say I got this information from the church authorities in order to save time, because this is information which properly should come from them. They . are the ones who build and own the schools, and they are the ones 'l-7ho are in a position to give official information . on those schools.

The number of schools actually finished last year according to their records, the number was t'venty-three, from April 1 to :·!arch 31 past. Tv7enty-three schools. And the names of these schools were the Garrigus Pentecostal Academy at St. Lunaire I in Hhite Bay. I had just the one copy here. I can read them very quick~y, and let them have copies aftenvards. Under the integrated Boards in ~e,.;r- foundland there is a _Summer Ford Elementary in Notre Dame Bay. This might be incidentally of some interest to other members too as to '"hat 2329

April 17 1970 Tape 534 page 1. 1Ai$W( :C • :t(ta !S't tt a iidi:J.i@Juuaru:w): w·cre built last year or at least finished construct, means constructed in the ~arious districts, Summerford Elementary in Notre Dame Bay; and the Roddickton Central High in Hhite Bay; Sunnyside Elementary in Trinity Bay; Norman's Cove Elementary in Trinity Bay; Foxtrap Regional High School in Conception Bay; that incidentally I believe is being officially opened next ~,reek.

Campbellton C~ntral High School in Notre Dame Bay; Chance Cove Elementary in Trinity Bay: Triton Elementary in Notre Dame Bay; Fortune Elementnry in Fortune Bay and Garnish ~lementary in Eortune Bay; These are the schools under the integrated boards. Under the Roman Catholic Boards of Newfoundland these schools were constructed last year: Trepasser Elementary School; St. Pius X, School in Baie Verte; St. Peter & St. Paul School at Helrose an1 Elementary school; Queen of Peace School at Bishops Falls, elementary; Central Elementary School at Upper Ferry; Cassidy Elementary St. Fintan's; High School at St.

Joseph's, St. "George's; Elementary School , St. Thomas Aquinas Mt Port au Port East; Lady of the . Cape High School at Degras, ~1hich is in Port au Port District; Stella Maris School at Benoits eave an elementary school. Our Lad7 of Grace school at Bird Cove elementary; and the High School at Brig Bay the name of 'I'Thich has not been subl!litted to me perhaps it has not been officially named at Brig Bay. Total twenty-three schools, whose construction was. completed last year. I will table this ·and if add~tional copies are needed I will be only too happy to get it Mr. Speaker.

ORDERS OF THE DAY: ~ffi~~~COLLINS(Gander): Mr. Speaker, before we begin 6rders of the Day I have a question for the ~inister for Supply and Services arising out of the announcement out of Gander yesterday concerning Eastern Provincial Airv1ays intention to lay off certain personnel., I wonder could we have the asc:srance of the Hinister that preference of employment uonld be given to those people ~7hen the Government sets up their own operation at Torbay. 23:10

April 17 1970 Tape 534 page 2 lh. RON. J. NOLAN(}!in. of Supply): Hr. Speaker, the hon. member may or may not recall that in the original announcement on the Aircraft situation that that was stipulated in that at that time. And was published in, on television and radio and in the nm.;rspapers throughout the Province. was that qualified personnel Hould be given preference, Hhat was said MR. COLLINS: Daily ne\vspapers have advertisements asking !lior ·that, we al\·mys want reassurance.5'Hr. Speaker. HON.L.R.CURTIS(Min. of Hustice): MR.SPEAKER(Noel): Bill No. 48: Clause 17 carried. Clause 18 carried. Bill No. 48.

MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, clause 18 is a clause that gives the Lieutenant Governor in Council very broad poHers under subsection (

c) to exempt from the application of the Act conditionally or unconditionally either in general terms or for a specified period any part of the Province any transaction person or class of transaction or persons or any class of cured fish or any by-product of fish curing, of course this could ~R only be exemption as far as this was inter-provincial and came within provincial jarisdiction. Has any decision been made yet as to whether any particular class of person or any class of cured fish or any particular

section of the P~ovince might have to be exempted from the application of the Act and in particular is there any decision to be made on '!>ickled fish. Hould the acting minister or v7hoever is looking after it HON.E.ROBERTS(Min. of Health): Mr. Speaker, I am not actins minister of fi~heries but I have assumed or had dumped upon me ministerial responsibility for the Bill. The hon. gentleman of course is quite correct \·lhen he says this is a great -.lide po>·.'er I am told Sir, that it is a pm.;rer nnalogous to the one in the complementary federal legislation.

I do not know of any decision and I spoke ~ith the president of the ·salt Fish Corporation earlier this day I do not knov7 of any decision to exempt any class of person or type of cured fish or any hy-nroduct of fish-curing. my understanding is that there may \;ell be certain types of products that the corporation does not Hish to fold in their previeH for example some of the snecialty fishes particularly in retail trade \dthin the Province. The case of pickled fish I quite candidly do not 2331

April 17 1970 Tape 534 page 3 k.nm-1 the ansHer Hr. Chairman these of course are pm..rers that will be given to the Corporation and were largely in that sense in the hands of the Corporation and as the Corporation is only now being constituted I do not see how we can ans~-1er the policy, I just do not know Sir, and I ~vould suggest, there is no way ~-1e can find out. Clause 18 carried: }ffi.E.R.V.EAP.LE(Fortune Bay): Mr.

Chairman, just a question on that, I am not very clear on , hm-r such exemption, if it is made for special types of fish would affect':the overall purchase price, because I understand that this is to be set. MR. ROEERT S : Hr. Chairman, I Hould think that if a_p.-Irticular class of fish is exempted, and I do not think there is any thought of exempting for examnle, maderis fish, or anything like. that, it might be exempting fish in packs of one ~ound of less for sale at retail. }ffi.Ek~E: That is made from maderia fish.

MR.ROBERTS: If it is good fish it is made from maderia f1sh some of it I fear is made from undergrmm tomcods. But ~1r. Chairman, obviously if a class of fish is exempted there would no price announced and no price payable in respect of that class of fish and I would think that is hoH it v10uld work. Clauses 18 through 23 carried. MR.CROSBIE: In clause 23, is there any particular Act that this may conflict with, that this particular clause has to be used. NR.ROBE:.<:l'S: Mr.

Chairman, this point arose at second reading stage I believe and I have been in touch with the officials responsible for this, they tell me that in their op:!.nion there is not any such act but they add they are concerned about the fact that the legislation adopted in 1964 is ttill on the books and is not repealed by this House. In addition, the Government take the position that this Bill is of such su~reme importance that i~ there is some statute that nobody knm~s about ~-1e do not want it shot do"t-.Tit, and so a paramount (

c) clause is put in. paramount (

c) clause being 23. The intention is Sir, that the Salt Fish Corporation shall have the oowers to do the joh it needs to do. Clause 23 carried. 2332

April 17 1970 Tape 534 page 4. lb rnause 24: ·. 1-fRROBERTS: Hr. Chairman, the Government of Canada have proclaimed I am told their Act, I am told it is in force, therefore in.that light I am not so sure that this ~lause is needed and if it is in order I would move that it be deleted, the Act to become effective immediately upon passage. Hotion is that Clause 24 be deleted, carried. Clause 8: 1-fR.ROBERTS: Hr. Chairman, if I may last evening in colTllllittee there '"'as some discussion about Clause 8.

And the commit tee agreed the Clause ,.muld stand, in the hope that a procedure could be '"orked out to take care of a problem that Has raised by members and which we all agreed HSS a real problem. So that we are clear Hr. Chairman, the problem was as I understood it where an · seized· h d · 1 f d 1 ~t · d f d ~nspector RllH!.K f~s an ~t was ater oun t 1at • ,..,.as se~ze or not goo reason and the fish had deteriorated, how was the person from whom the fish has been seized to be cnmpensated. '~e, this morning !-tR.EARLE: That ,..,.as not the full argument, Hr.

Chairman, it \·las not only the case of the seizu!'t! of the fish, but the case of inspection of fish where a great deal of expense was involved through inspection of large quantities \'l'ho stood the, to recompense the person Hhose fish was '€.Xarnined. HR. ROBERTS':' I thank the hon. member Nr. Chairman, perhaps \·Je could/l~~t ,.:'aere the inspection process unnecessarily causes damage '"ho Hould compensate the person \.;rho suffers the damage. 2333

April 17th. 1970 Tape 535 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: And I said in our vie~Mr. Speaker, this was a reasonable thing to be compensated for. Since that time, Hr. Chaiman I am told that our mm Law· Clerk has consulted lvith our legal officials, and I am now told,by our legal official~Sir, I mean .the Government's legal advisors, that Clause 8 and 9 of this Bill, are taken verbatim from the Act passed by the Government of Canada, are ones signed by the Parliament of Canada at the request of the Government. I am told by our legal advisors)Sir, that there should be no variation from them. In othenvords, Mr.

Chairman, we would not be able ·to accept an Amendment. However, the problem is none the less there and the problem must be met. Clause 12, Hr. Chairman, \-Thich of course we adpoted gives this Government or the Governor-in-Council power to enter into agreements with the Government of Canada. I am advised by our law officers, that the matter of compensation . for damages arising~out of the problems we have just outlined, could and in our vielv should be covered by such an agreement)Sir.

I spoke with the President of the Salt Fish Corporation, who authorized me to say that, they being the corporation are willing to take this matter and try to work out an appropriate policy and for our part,:Sir, for the Government, \-Te are willing to, you know, . ought to make, under Clause 12, using the general power given to the Governor-in- Council, again appropriate policy or an appropriate agreement with the Government of Canada to provide for this. If any needless lost is suffered in the circumstances we have defined, our views<".

Sir; that is a proper charge against the corporation, a proper amount to be paid to the person who suffered the damage. Hotion, that the committee report having passed the Bill with some amendment, carried, MR. CHAIR!'fAN: Item 9, Bill No, 16 Clause 1,2,3,4 carried. Shall Clause 5 carry? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman.in connection with Clause 5, when this matter was / debated on in second reading, thepoint was raised as to whether or not there should be an Appeal Board in a sit~ation similar to this one where the Government can grant or not grant a permit, or can give a bounty or not give 233~

April 17th. 1970 Tape 535 PK - 2 -~1SBI~ a bounty, and is a discretionary pm.rer in the Government. And it was suggested that time, I suggested that there should be some kind of an Appeal Board in connection with situations like this, and :!in fact it might be a seven man Board, or a number like that, which would be represented, various experts would be represented including a lawyer, you could hear appeals in situations like this, and so on. As the minister said, Mr.

Chairman, that there may well be in any particular year be"forty or fifty applications, but only sufficient money to grant say twenty or thirty permits. And the minister answering that point, said that he thouf!ht an Appeal Board would be too cumbersome, because they already had to go through a long procedure to get a permit or a bounty. They go through usually one Federal agency and two Provincial, and four stages altogether. Hell, Mr. Chairman.,that does not meet my point.

Hy point is, that when a person has applied for a bounty and a permit, and_once his application has successfully gone through the stages the minister outlined, that is onder the Provincial Act so much a ton, the Federal Act fifty percent of the total cost. Then usually the Fisheries Loan Board. Hhen it has gone through all those stages, and the permit has been approved, you may still have forty or fifty permits of people ~.rho have met all the requirements, and has been approved by everyone, but there is not sufficient money to grant them all their bounty under their permit under the Act.

And in that situation you are bound to have suspicion, that one is being treated unfairly or for some extraneous reason, for not gettin~ a permit. So I still submit, Hr. Chairman, that in legislation like this, it is not un~vorkable to have an .Independable Appeal Board with outside people on it, who are the final court of last resource in these matters. · And what the minister has said, makes no more unworkable at all. Because this Appeal Board would only come into jurisdiction once the applicant had gone through all the processes the minister explained and had been founded qualified.

And in connection with that-point, I would like if the minister can would he advise us how many applications are now pending for the payment of a 2335

April 17th. 1970 Tape 535 PK - 3 ~0'51r.IE": bounty in the department? Hot.r many people have now gone through all these processes, the Provincial process, and the Federal, and who have been approved, but whose applications have not been met, or have not got their permit, or their bounty, as .yetC How many of those are there now pending? I think with this information, it might throw some light on this? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the point I believe was debated at second reading, and I can add nothing to what the Minister of Fisheries said at that time.

I heard h.is explanation then Sir, and I must say I think it was adequate, and dealt with the need. The problem, Mr. Chairman, is not with improper granting of permits. I . s~ggest the problem is with the fact there is not enough money to meet the demands upon us. The only real answer, if any hon • . member or nay person in this Province, Sir, knows of any case ,.,-.here allegedly improper decisions t-7ere taken and we would want to know about them. Mr. Chairman, the minister I thought put the position well. I see no need to add to what he said, I can add nothiling to it.

I am afraid I do not have the detailed figures, which the .hon. gentleman requested. The minister would have had them, of course the minister is no longer with us, I could try to find them for him. I suggest it might be difficult today, but if the hon. gentleman either wanted to give me a little note, I can get the information from the appropriate officials or he could ask a question of the new minister, or I suggest of the Premier who would get the information for him. The infonnatio}:{?would gladly supply, but the problem I do not think could be solved by the type of approach as being suggested. MR.

CROSBIE: You will get the information. MR. ROBERTS: Nr. Chairman, I will gladly get any information I can, I did not make a note of it, but if the hon. gentleman could let me have a note of what he wants, I will get that information, of course Sir. MR. CHAIR1-1AN: Clauses 5, to Clause 17 carried. Clause 18 MR. H.R.V. EARLE: A question under this one, this tax has been updated because of the increased value of the ship concerned. I believe the minister remarked that some ·of them were as high as $30,000 or $40,000 value. While under this Act 2 3 3 6

April 17, 1970, Tape 536, Page 1 -- apb ~ I il&iliit;_ "'' 1 JMt there are possibilities of contravention in a .number of ways. It seems to me that the penalty of $500. has not been adjusted to the possible loss. AN liON. }lli}ffiER: ~-That dild you say that the penalty '-las before? }ffi, EARLE: Not exceeding $500. HR. ROBERTS: Hr. Chairman,;I do not knm.;r if that is the same as the penalty was in the former Act, I do not have the former Act before me.

It may be an increase, but I Hould feeL Sir, that the combination of $500. and or imprisonment / / for a period of not exceeding four months Hhich are the penalities applied unde 'r the Act is a fairly stiff penalty 1 Sir. In addition of course, if there is criminal conduct it could be prosecuted in the criminal courts in the same fashion as any other criminal action is liable to prosecution. These are fairly stiff penalitiesJHr. Chairman, even for boats worth $35,000. MR. EARLE: There have been cases \vhere the boats have been ,k:Jeglected and severely damaged. MR. ROBERTS: There have been of course ,,Mr.

Chairman, unfortunately cases J T,Jhere that is so, the normal process is to repossess the boat under the mortgage and Hhich means that the gentleman who has acted improperly looses his ten per cent. His $3,000. or $4,000. investment a fairly stiff fine all in al~ Sir. MR. E&'U.E: But the Government recovers very little MR. ROBERTS: The Government to my knowledge,.Nr. Chairman. have not lost a great J / deal of money on t:1ese boats. He are not in it to make or to loose money, \ve are to try to get longliners for fishermen. Motion, that the Committee report having passed this Bill w-ithout amendment. Carried.

ITEM 8, Bill no.4: :"

An Act Further To Amend The \~elf are Of Children Act." Hotion, that the Committee report having passed this Bill Hithout amendment. Carried. ITE;1 7, Bill no. 26: "An Act Further To Amend The Social Assistance Act, 1962." MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I do not kno'-: . if I am on the right clause here or 2337

April 17, 1970, Tape 536, Page 2 -- apb not, but I will take a chance anyway. It is my understanding that this appeal legislation is a requirement of the Federal Government, and it is brought about because of an agreement 'vhich I suppose has been signed, or is about to be signed, I would suspect that it has been signed between the Federal Government and the Provincial Government.

I have not seen the Feder~l Legislation, I have seen it but I nave not had time to study it to tell you the truth, but it is my understanding that one of the purposes of the Federal Legislation and requirements of the Province is to insure t'hat there-is an adequate appeal procedure. I have taken a look at some of the legislation having to do \vi th appeals in relation to the social assistance Act in other Provinces, and in a great many Provinces I find t~1at there is more than one appeal board established.

The minister might argue that in a great number of Canadian Provinces municipalities are also involved and have some responsibilities and jurisdiction insofar as social assistance is concerned but I \-Tould like to suggest to him that in viev1 of the fact that lve do have several regional lmlfare offices across Newfoundland, would 11e not give consideration say, to also establishing a board certainly in the principal areas like Corner Brook, Grand Falls, Gander, LeHis porte and Clarenville. I cannot think of any other places Hhere you do have regional l1elfare offices.

Certainly this would make it much easier for people in those areas to be able to register an appeal. Insofar as being able to find people to constitute the appeal board, I do not think that would present any great problem because He might be able to utilize the services of town managers, and other pe~ple in those communities.

I would lik~Sir, for the minister to react to / what I have just said and indicate if he has thought about this, because in my opinion it is a very worth lvhile proposition and certainly in all fairness to all of the people of Newfoundland I think that they should be able to register an appeal, appe ·ar in person if necessary, "\vithout having to come to St. Joim 's. HR. NEARY: ar.

Chairman, there is some merit in what the hon. member just said, and I tvant to assure him that no client of this llepartment vYill be denied the opportunity to appeal to this appeal board even if it means that the board should move around to the major centres in the Province the same as the Supreme 2338

April 17, 1970, Tape 536, Page 3, -- apb Court on circuit.

The other question that the hon. member raised about the consulting or the agreement l>Tith the Government of Canada, I \vant to assure him that I did consult with the representatives of the Canada Assistance Plan on this Bill that '-7e had before, our system of appeals and I am advised that this appeals board that \ve intend to set up because of the innovation that I mentioned in second reading, that I was thinking about putting a \velfare recipient on ti1e appeal board makes this procedure that we have laid dO\m, far superior than any other - appeal board in Canada that we knO\v of. !·!R. CROSBIE: ::-ir.

Chairman, this is a tentative step fonvard this appeal board, because the hon. minister of coursein sub-section 7 of this

section and direct that there shall be no appeal, if he thinks it is trivial, or frivolous or vexatious, or not made in good faith and so on. But even moreso because, under sub-section 8, the members of an appeal board hold office during pleasure. Now the members of this appeal board displease a minister, or the Government with their decisions, they can be flicked out tomorrow because they are going to hold office during pleasure. Nm1 any appeal board, Xr.

Chairman., in my opinion ' / that holds office during pleasure is an appeal board t:1at is at the pleasure of the Government or the minister who appoints them, and I mean that can be very ineffective. I would have thought that it would have been better to have an appeal board appointed for some specified period such as one year, or t'•JO year, something like that. Obviously if the members were on an appeal board Hho know that they only hold office during pleasure may be very careful not to make decisions that may annoy the officials or t:1e department concerned.

So that is a definite ,,•eakness, I do not know what the position is in other Provinces or Federally lvhat the term is, and particularly any mer:tber, any boay appoint2d to this board who represents the clients of the minister's dep~rtment as he likes to cal therr.,(I think actually it is not a bad nane) he is on this ciuring pleasure also, and tl1at person is going to be receiving probably sone eY.;)(~ :1se money and even remuneration as a mem"::Jer. All of those things I think have a tendency to \·ll~aken the affect of tilis ''hole appeal procedure, and I 1-·onder vhether the minister \·:oulJ co=c:nt on 2339

April 16, 1970, Tape 536, Page 4 apb those points. MR. ROBERTS: If the minister does not mind, maybe I could add a word, because this legislation had its genesis ~.;rhen I had a little more personal know·ledge of the administration of the department no~v being rurt so well by my hon. colleague. Let me deal with just one point, and that is with the serving of pleasure. This is not an unusual procedure in any ~vay:7 Hr. Chairman, / legislation ~.,rhich was spensored by the han. member for St.

John's Hest when he held the job I nm•l have, the medicare Act, the members of the medicare commission hold office at pleasure Hr. Chairman, They hold office at the pleasure of the Governor in Council \vho appoints them. It is not unusual Sir. In any event :'1r. Chairman, I ~.;rould suggest quite strongly that if at any time an appeal board or a member of an appeal board tvas turfed out or dismissed, because it rendered a decision that was unacceptable to the minister or to the Government, Mr.

Chairman, all hell would break loose, there ~vould be more fuss and feathers, the House tvould be in an uproar and so it should be. There is no thought at all Hr. Chairman of a board or a member of a board being under a sort of Damocles and the moment he did something that displeased the mvesome horror the minister the s~vord would fall. ~-················· 2340

April 17th, 1970 Tape 537 JM- 1 ~-'liS : ~erudite leader, Mr. Chairman, has caught me once again and speaking to a clause, whatever it is, of this Bill the word is damocles. -l"he point i.s the source is not there no matter what it is called. I really think that the hon. gentleman's points .are sound in so far as they go but I do not think they go far enough, Sir. My colleague may have some more to say on it. MR.

NEARY: I do not know if I answered the question for the hon. member or not but I think I did say in the Second Reading that the duration or term of office of the Board would be for one year and that I would be prepared in the next session of the House to rise or fall on the success of this Appeal Board • . MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the comparison that the hon. Minister of Health made between the people to be appointed to this Appeal Board and members of the Medical Commission, of course, is entirely false analogy.

This is an Appeal Board to decide appeals made by people who a~~/social assistance or who have been refused social assistance and feel they have a grievance and this is supposed to be an Appeal Board to decide as between them and the Department of Welfare who is right. Are they entitled to social assistance or not or whatever their quarrel is and here they are now going to appeal to an Appeal Board appointed by the Government or the minister at pleasure. Now the Medicare Commission is not an Appeal Board. The Medicare Commission is a commission to operate the medicare scheme.

They must comply with Government policy in so far as medicare is concerned. MR. ROBERTS: I wish they had the same message. MR. CROSBIE: In this particular case they might be much more well advised to have their own policy but many of them, they hold office at pleasure so that if the Government wishes it can replace them. They are not an Appeal Board for anybody, nobody appeals to them • . They are just an agency of the Government the same as the Government Department would be to carry out a Government policy or a Government plan. The members of an Appeal Board are 2341

April 17th, 1970 Tape 537 JM - 2 there to hear appeals and no sagacious Minister of Welfare is going to dismiss a member of his board openly because he gave a decision that the minister did not like. No minister is. going to be that stupid. He is going to ease them out and give some other reason naturally. MR. ROBERTS: ::::u--hJ! can find a way to ease them out. MR. CROSBIE: The point is, Mr. Chairman, . that there are various Sq.,Ji;k.. ways to influence people who are on boards who are appointed at pleasure, various supple ways.

You just pass them along the message and they get the message and if they are ever dismissed it is easy to cover up why they were dismissed as a dozen reasons can be given. Now I am not saying that is going to happen but the possibility of it is there. Now if the minister says we just do not know how this is going to work, this is a trial matter for a year or so. We will see how it works. We are afraid we might get on that board a couple of people who give really silly decisions or turn out to be nincompoop and we do not want to have them there for a year or having a welfare recipient on the board might not work.

So this is experimental and therefore we prefer to have it a pleasure but we consider change in the future. Well that would make some sense so I am not going to vote against the

section but I think that I would accept it as experimental but really if there is to be Appeal Boards they should be there for fixed terms. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, the point was raised earlier. The second facet to that was discussed during the debate on Second Reading. Obviously it is intended from this Act that most of the meetings of that

section prescribed will be held in the city of St. John's and it is probably unrealistic to send a large Board out for one hearing or a Board of three with the retinue of staff and everything else that is necessary. I thought the hon. minister indicated that he would give serious .consideration to a provision in this

section to the effect that if an appeal is to be heard and the petitioner or appellant is required to come to St. John's that the cost of such appellant coming to the city for a hearing the reasonable costs would be 23~2

April 17th, 1970 Tape 537 JM- 3 ::MI'l! X~ recoverable from the Department of Public Welfare. Now is the hon. minister in a position to elaborate on that or is he in a position to give an amend- ment, a closing amendment to take care of that. MR. NEARY: As a matter of fact that is one of the things that we have in mind where a recipient cannot afford to come to St. John's if the hearing is in St. John's then I think that we should provide him with transportation so that his case can be heard before the Appeal Board. There are two ways to do it.

I have already ~xplained that the Board could travel around the same as the Supreme Court on circuit. Now I do not know what they do in the Unemployment Insurance Commission, I do not know if the Appeal Board there moves around the Province or not. I think my hon. colleague points out that they do visit Grand Falls and Corner Brook and this Appeal Board would probably do the same thing and maybe even go down to the Burin Peninsula if my hon. friend is good. MR. COLLINS: Mr.

Chairman, if I might before closing.J would like to say / that the Nova Scotian Legislation establishes an Appeal Board in the city of Halifax and also the Nova Scotian Legislation provides for an Appeal Board for the city of Halifax and also one for each county. I do not know how many counties. I know they have a different level of government but geographically speaking I think we can think in those terms and certainly where they have counties we should certainly be able to have an Appe~l Board for each welfare district, each welfare supervisory district.

Well let us break it down into East, West, North, South, Central then. MR. NEARY: For these welfare districts we would have to have forty Appeal Boards, you know. MR. COLLINS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I submit that there is no reason why we could not have one on the Burin Peninsula, one in Corner Brook, one in Grand Falls, one in Gander, Lewisporte, and Clarenville and Labrador. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, let me just say a word. This is an experminental measure, it is a step forward and if in a year or so of operation we need to 23~3

April 17th, 1970 Tape 537 JM- 4 make further improvements, of course we will. My colleague is energetically experminenting and I think already the statement he made the other day he shows we are willing to change. If in practise we can make improvements on the appeal procedure, Mr. Chairman, let me assure hon. gentleman we will. I think their comments have been well taken. I would rather get people off welfare, Mr. Chairman, that is our main concern. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the Bill with no amend- ments, carried.

A Bill, "An Act To Amend the Prisons Act, 1969." Motion, that the Committee report having passed the Bill with no amend- ments, carried. A Bill, "An Act Respecting Private Investigators And Security Guards." MR. CURTIS: I would ask the Hon. Minister of Health to move an amendment to (h) 1) "Permanent officers or employees, then instead of saying; "of municipal authorities'', "of the City of St John's or of a municipal authority" ~m ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, it is with pleasure that I do that. MR CURTIS: This is being done at the request of the mayor. MR CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, under

Section 4, (d), MR CHAIRMAN: Order: I must put the amendment to

Section 3 (

h) first On motion amendment carried: MR CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, Clause 4 exempts from the Act people, and (

d) is a person who while acting as a peace officer. What would be the position of bailiffs and deputy-sheriffs under this legislation? Are bailiffs and deputy-sheriffs defined in any Act as peace officers? MR CURTIS: Well deputy-police officers, I suppose, would be members of a police force. MR CROSBIE: That would mean that this Act would apply to bailiffs and deputy - sheriffs2 MR CURTIS: They could become investigators if they wanted to. MR CROSBIE: I mean. in their practice of bailiffing or deputy-sheriffing they could be investigators? 2344

April 17th, 1970 Tape 537 JM- 5 MR. CURTIS: They could be investigators, yes. MR. CROSBIE: But I mean, are bailiffs and deputy-sheriffs going to have to be licenced under this Act? MR. CURTIS: Not as bailiffs and not as deputy-sheriffs but if they wanted to do private investigating they would have to. MR. CROSBIE: Of course private, but under

Section 2 (

e) private investigator means a person who for higher profit or reward investigates and furnishes information which inclu_des thousands of people and includes a person who searches for those certain particular things. The definition of private investigator under (

e) is a very broad one. There may be some problem I think, I never had a chance to speak on 2 (

e) before. There may be some problem here as you may be going to forced to be licenced many more people than you are expecting because a private investigator means a person who for higher profit or reward investigates and furnishes information. That is all they have to do is investigate and furnish information. And then 1,2,and 3 there are just instances of that and includes but it is not exclusive. So anybody who have paid anything to investigate and furnish information of any kind, they have to be licenced under this Act. And bailiffs and deputy­ sheriffs for example are people like that. MR. HICKMAN: That, Mr. Chairman, might be cured by simply amending (

d) to add bailiffs, sheriffs, deputy-sheriffs, would that not Mr. Minister cure the problem? MR. CURTIS: This is a copy of the Ontatio Act and they have had it on their extension book for many years. I think we might try it out as it is. Clauses 4 to 9, carried. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, Clause 9;t still 2345

mw March 17th., 1970 Tape no. 538 Page 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause (9) carry? Carried. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, Clause (9), I stilLfeeLis objectionable, and as I have said, when we were debating this on second reading: "the minister may upon receipt of an application for a licence and upon such inquiry ardinvestigation he deems proper,issue or refuse to issue a licence where, in his opinion, such action is in the public interest." Now, Mr.

Chairman, I definitely feel that the minister is given too broad a discretion-under this subsection: "where in his opinion such action is in the public interest.'' That could cover anything. If the minister feels "that some particular applicant should not get a licence for any number, a hundred reasons, the minister can convince himself that it is not in the public interest, he will not get a licence or he will not get his licence renewed. '-Je are dealing 'vith work that people are engaged in as private detectives or private investigators and I think it puts them in a very invidious position.

I think the minister should only be able to refuse a licence on certain grounds outlined in the Act. The person has a criminal record or the first is being convicted of a criminal record or you knmo1 the per~on is a security risk or perhaps you forbid a bankrupt - there should be category to go-by. Here is

an Act now which is going to regulate private investigators, private detectives and security guards and the minister of the Government has the_ power to refuse them a licence or refuse to renew one, if is it is not in the public interest to do so. Now I think that no minister should have, Hr. Chairman; ubhody should have that kind of a broad power. }ffi. CURTIS: Appeal section (26). ~- CROSB~E: If there is an appeal to the Supreme Court what standards have they got to decide whether or not the minister properly used his discretion, because the minister is not given .•• There is no criterion as to how he is to use his discretion, and I think an administrative law , ~·~here 2346

-------- Tape no. 538 Page 2 April 17th., 1970 statutes are this broadly worded, the courts have said that the minister has an absolute discretion and the courts will not interfere unless, if the minister refuses to see the applicant or some denial or basic justice like that, they may interfere. But where such a broad discretion as this is given, the courts say that the IDinister is .given the full discretion and they cannot interfere, unless there is a denial of natural justice, no hearing. But the minister has been given too much pm.rer under this section, Hr. Chair111an. I do not think it is right. MR.

CURTIS: Does not the bon. member knoH that the ~1inister of Justice can decide all kinds of criminal proceedinfs. You got to trust somebody, and if you do not trust your Attorney-General, God help us. }ffi. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, it has nothing to do with who is at present occupying the office of the Hinister of Justice. lfR. CURTIS: I knmv, but I am thinkinp, my bon. friend may be there. MR. CROSBIE: Right. If I lvere there, it would be just as wrong. The point is that l·7hen the minister is considering prosecutions, that is an entirely different matter.

This is a minister considering whether a man will have his living taken away from him, or be given a permit to engage in a certain way to make a living, and I still subiDit, Mr. Speaker, and I kno~7 the Govermr.ent can pass. this an~n·my, but I still ask the minister •. MR. Cu"RTIS: - - --- Somebody has got to exercise discretion. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, but why should •. HR.. CURTIS: Or you cannot lay down any rules. But why •• HR. CURTIS: You cannot lay down down a clause •. HR. CROSBIE: The minister can say now that there are certain reasons why a person should not be licenced as a private investigator. MR.

CURTIS: Yes. tffi. CROSBIE: These are: (

a) if he has a criminal record and (

b) perhaps if he is a bankrupt and (

c) if it is moral turpitude or bad 1'10ral character. These are something that you can get your teeth into. In the public interest 2347

April 17, 1970 Tapeno. 538 Page 3 is absolutely untrammeled, and I say that in situations like this, the things that prevent a person from getting a licence should be specified in the Act. This is too broad a power, Mr. Chairman, for any minister to have, in a matter like this and the appeal to the Supreme Court, in my opinion, does not help the person ,.,ho may suffer other foss here. Now I do not knm·T whether any of my/)legal _ brethern 'I<TOuld agree or not agree. I would be interested in hearinr, the bon. member for Burin. Section (9)(1) of this Bill. Section (9) (1) of the Private Investigators Bill. MR.

CROSBIE: - ------- Shall Clause (9) carry? ,,/\ No, Mr. Chairman, I wouldjllike to vote on Clause (9) or NR. CHAIRY:AN: - - ---· =.:-- Section (9) unless the minister is going to consider some kind of an amendment, I would like to vote on this Clause. MR. CHAIPJ"'AN: Shall Clause (9) carry? Those in favour please say aye. :· Contrary "nay." The Clause is carried. MR. CROSBIE: I would like my vote recorded, Mr. Chairman. You do not record votes. MR. CHAIRHAN': Clause . (lO), (11) carried. MR. CROSBIE: -··--- ·- Clause (11), Hr. Chairman. Just look at Clause (11).

"The minister may suspend or cancel a licence ~-1here he is satisfied that a licencee (

a) has failed to comply with the Act and so on.{

b) has made a material misstatement and ~pplication for licence •. That is fine. Both these things are fine, because it is easy to know whether or not they have done something wrong. "Has been guilty of misrepresentations, fraud, or dishonesty. " Good, we can establish that; (

d) should not for any other valid reason be permitted to hold a licence. Absolutely untrammeled. Should not for any other valid reason - any other reason that the minister considers valid be permitted to hold a licence. Now, Mr. Minister that is in the cate~ory of Section (9) (1) and I do not see why the Government should wish to have that broad a power to suspend or cancel a licence. After all this is only a business of carryin~ 23~8

April 17th., 1970 T~pe no. 538 Paf!,e 4 on as a private detective or security guard. You specify (a) (b) (

c) and should not for any other valid reason. Now a court will not substitute its judgment or the judgment of the minister as to what is a valid reason. They will not do it. They have no criteria to go by, and this I submit, }lr. Chairman, is too broad a power also. I ~.;rould move that: "subsection (tl) of the Clause (11) (1) be deleted.'' !·~R. ROBERTS : HR. Chairman, if I may speak to the amendment, I)' unlike my hon. fr·iend from St. John's West, I would be most hesitant to predict what a court would or ~•ould not do, if the question ~·Tere laid before them.

I claim no experience before the courts of this Province, Sir, either as a counsel or as a party, but I think I can claim a certain experience in administrative law. I have lived with it for six years. }rr. Chairman, I would su~gest that the Clause as drafted gives the deprived party very broad protection. There is an appeal provided to the Supreme Court of this Province and as my colleague the !finister of Justice said at another stare in this proceedings, we trust the Supreme Court, if nobody else does.

I would sup:r,est, Sir, that the court ~vould be entirely within their jurisdiction and I "t,TQuld think they ~·70uld . say whetheror not the reason for uhich a licence is taken is valid. ~fr. Chairman, that surely is precisely th~ question that would be laid before the court. whether the minister in re111ovin:;t a licence once it had been granted had exercised his opinion invalidly or other than a valid fashion. I think this pives a very ereat protection to an aggrieved person. HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, you see the

section reads: "the minister may suspend or cancel a licence where 'he' is satisfied -where 'he' is satisfied that the licencee should not for any other valid reason be permitted to hold a licence.'~ "1-t"'here the minister is satisfied, not ~V'here the court - any valid reason that satisfies the minister, the court is ~oin~ to have to agree with. It is atrocious, arro?ation of power. I cannot~why the hon. minister wants to have the power. Why does he want-- 2349

JW April 17, 1970 Tape !1539 Page 1 § ["! 7 p who '"ants to rule the roost over a private investigator, a security guard? MR. ROBERTS: And it is not me. MR. CROSBIE: Is that a promise? MR. ROBERTS: That is a promise. MR. CROSBIE: {,Te do not uant to see the hon. gentleman leave the De~artment of Health before he carries out the reforms. Anyway I do not think that meets the point, but if you are adamant, there is nothing more \ve can do, and I would like to move that amendment. ~m. SPEAKER: 71 (

d) be deleted. Those in favour please say "aye " contrarv "nay". The !·lotion is defeated. Clauses 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, Carried. HR. CROSBIE: The hon. minister is caught in tenderhooks there. I uas wondering 'vhy I got no support from down that side when I just moved that amendment. Hr. Hinister, Section (18) ~fuy do you ~1ant to prohibit anyone using the expression "private detective," '"hether they are licenced or not? lfuat is the purpose of that? There is no person \vhether licenced or not can use the expression ''private detective. " Is there any great reason for that? HR.

CURTIS: It should mean that the man is authorized. Everybodv should not be allo,;red to call himself a private detective. MR. CROSBIE: No;; hut even if he is licenced, he is not allmved to use it. No person engaged '"hether licenced under the Act or other, ·rise. Hr. ~ 1inisterJ I do not go for all these clauses because Ontario has ·had them for years. As Mr. Justice Dunfield used to say that they had verv poor draftsmen in the other provinces compared to Newfoundland. ~ 1R. CURTIS: I kno\v, but look what happened to Judge Dunfield. Pe rhaps mv hon. friend should change this clause. Clause (23) ~ffi.

Cl~TIS: Disclosure of information, that is a side note to (lR). It is not part of the Act. NR. l.RClSRIE: Clause (23) ~ ! r. Chairman. Is not this Clause a little extra- ordinary or is it? Let us see. For the purnoses of this Act, the acts of

JW April 17, 1970 Tape /!539 Page 2 any partner in a partnership or no~ only such partners own acts, that are deemed to be :·. the acts of a partnership, and the acts of each and every partner in the partnership. In other ~1ords, everybody who is a partner in a private dick outfit as they call it in the movies, or a security guard organization, or whatever it is. Under ordinary partnership law has certain responsibilities, but this Act says that every Act of every partner is going to be

an act of the other partner and they are to be held for this Act to be all acts of one another. Now ~Thy this great precarious liability? For example if one partner misre~resents an application form to the minister to be licenced, that Act under Section(23) ~~ill not only be his act, but deemed to be the acts of the partnership when the acts of each and every partner and every one of the partners can lose his licence. MR. CURTIS: l.Jell suupose the partnership was Crosbie and lvells. He do not have to show which one did it. The partnership is liable. MR.

CROSRIE: But if I give you a false application, and I knew that, you could take away my licence on the Act, but why should you be able to take away Smith's licence who is my partner, and I might have five partners. MR. CURTIS: I think these are Acts in operatin~, not in getting licences. If they are two partners and one just goes ha~~ire - in investigating a ~ marriage problem or something like that. The firm has got to be liable. }m. CROSBIE: No, but this says for the purposes of this Act. MR. CURTIS: That is for the purpose of the Act. :~R.

CROSRIF.: I would hate to be a private detective \~hen this goes through I \<!ill tell you that. :-m.. CFRTIS: Hell you stick to the .iob vou are at. ·~otion, that the Committee report having passed this :Bill with some amendmen~s, Carried. A Rill, ''An Act Further To Amend The fire Prevention Act, 1954.' ' }lotion, that the Committee report having passed this Bi 11 Hithout amendment. A Bill, "An Act To Amend The N omenclature Board Act, 1959." 'lotion, that the Committee report having passed thjs Rill uithout amendment. •' 2351

JW April 17, 1970 Tape 539 Page 3 MR NOEL: · Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Hhole have considered the matters to them referred and directed me to renort having passed Bill No.1 and Bill No.48, with some amendment, On motion report received and adopted. On motion amendments read a first time. On motion amendments read a sec.ond time. On motion Bill ordered read a third time on tomorrow: MR NOEL: Hr. Speaker, the Counnittee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and directed me to ret>ort having passed Bills Nos.4,5,6, 16, 12 and 26 Without amendments, and asks leave to sit again on tomorrow.

On motion report received and adopted, bills ordered read a third time on tomorrow: On motion Committee ordered to sit again on tomorrow. Motion: Second reading of a Bill, "An Act Further To .Amend The Department of Education Act." MR. Rm.ffi: Mr. Speaker, the House will have noticed in all ten Education Bills on the Order Paper, of these I think about five or six of them are more or less formal n:ominal Bills, which have been necessitated either by changes in nomenclature or by havin!!; to change related Acts to correspond to the Parent Ac.ts the two great 23rJ2

April 17th. 1970 Tape 540 PK - 1 NJ!¢ ?71l.: Education Act)/of course, the Department of Edcuation Act, and the Schools Act. And there are other important Education's Act, those relating to teacher training and so on. And those relating to the University. But the two big ones are the Department of Education and the Schools Act. This Bill provides for the change of the name of the Department from of Education to the Department of Education and Youth. And this in turn means that the department will have certain powers, certain responsibilities that were not given to the department before.

There is also . a provision here to make some minor changes)~and they are very minor with regard to the Denominational Education Committees. I do not think there is any point in spelling these are very nominal and technical and no point in going through them, word by word at this time, Mr. Chairman, since we will have to do it in committee anyway, and I think the time to do it is in committee, if for any detailed analyze of this point or that point.

This then is a formal nominal Bill, and is one why necessary will not have any great effect one way or the other on the educational set up, other than perhaps, and this may be worth mentioning, that in changing the name from Education to Education and Youth, we 'are in line with what ~s ~ be~g ;done in other provinces, and indeed in other parts of the world. In accentuating youth activities in addition merely to education in the narrow sense of the word. Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is eaything more I need to say on this at this time, and we can discusss in committee any details. I move second reading. MR.

SPEAKER: Hoved and seconded that this Bill be now read a second time. MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, just a question of the minister, if I may? Under the

section here, Bill No. 9,

Section b, the selection and appointment of members of·school boards, does this abolish the custom or I suppose the regulation we had before, where all members of school boards, were confirmed by Cabinet. Frankly if it is so, I am all in favour of it, because this is a nu~sance/the Minister of Education always had to bring lon~ lists of 2353

April 17th. 1970 Tape 540 PK - 2 J'P E. appointments of School Boards to Cabinet to be approved. This is abolish that procedure? MR. HICK}~: Mr. Speaker, the intent of t~is Bill as outlined by the bon. Minister of Education is obviously goo·d. Apparently this House could now assume that it is the intention of the Government that youth and recreational facilities will best within<- . the authority of the Minister of Education, rather than the Minister of Provincial .Affairs, as in the past. And I do not say this disparaging at all, but in my opinion that is where it belongs. Not that the -bon.

Minister of Provincial Affairs has not been doing its level best, without any funds to try and do something to satisfy the recreational needs, that we are finding throughout the Province, the fact is Mr. Speaker, as the hon. Minister of Education is aware, that within the concept of providing certain recreational facilities for ~: . ~ education, in.:.my opinion this has been to literally, and to strickly interr1,1pted by scho61 boards, and Government over the years. ~ve see in Newfoundland a tragic waste of recreational and youth facilities throughout the Province during the summer vacation.

We find school boards ·;jealously guarding and locking up the gates at the end of the school year. And we find that the very time during the year when youth needs ~equired playing:::;_ fields, and when they require an outlet for their activities and for their energies, and for their desires and needs, that this in many instances, these facilities, not only fields, but gymnaium and other recreational facilities within the educational scheme of things and within school boards are denied to them.

Nowjif part of the emphasis that Government intends to place on youth will encompasse this sortrof thinking, if it will do something to encourage school boards and educational authorities to make these facilities available on a twelve month basis, then obviously that is a step in the right direction. And another thing, Mr. Speaker, insofar as the emphasis shifting to a degree at least from education to youth is this, and I would hope to raise this in more serious detail at a later date in some other debate in this House.

But there has been in the past few years, I believe a consideration and tragic widening of the gap between those who are charged with the 2 3 r; :, . u c!

April 17th. 1970 Tape SAO PK - 3 M pe!ft!Mf. responsibility of administering education in Newfoundland. ·And this is not peculiar to Newfoundland, and the youth of our Province. I believe that we unwittingly developed a youth cult, and I do not think the blame li·es with youth. I think we are too prone, Hr. Speaker, and have been to prone, Mr.

Speaker, particularly in the last two or three years to gemeralize and put everyone in a certain age group, into one category, and say well$ they are the youth of our Province, they seem to be a bit more anxious to become involved, we sometimes misinterptet anxiety for involvement, with anxiety to disrupt the establishment. And may be the establishment, Mr. Speaker, 1s very much in need of this disruption. Haybe J 23G5

April 17 1970 TApe 541 par,e 1. {I'IA i. Bd(. ' e Nr. Seeaker, that the youth in Newfoundland today and a boy coming out of Grade Xl today in Surin or in Lewispo~te is far better informed than ~-1 as his counterpart of fifteen years aeo. He was far better informed because there is so much more knoHledge available to him, Mr. Speaker, than there ~·laS to even those who nttended high school -ten or fifteen years ago. The amount of knm-lledge lvill double again Hr.

Speaker, the amount of knowledge available to the .,.,orld 'Hill double again in the next ten years, I think it "ms 200 years for it to double up to 1950 or 1940's. And this is a massive thin g that is confrontin g our youth tocay. They have suadenly been called upon to, in a very short time to absorb changes, that the youth of even ten years ago could take and assimilate on a gradual basis. Now we think today that a grade X or grade Vlll or grade V student could sit this afternoon and ·Hatch the sp!.ashdo-wn of Appollo Xlll. and treat that as something almost ordinar~ ~fr. Speaker.

That we have had thirteen of these experiments or voyages in the last fet~ years. And nm.r this tyne of scientific development is taken for granted.by our youth, it is taken for granted almost by~all of us bnL they have suddenly been faced Hith all these changes with all these pressures, ,t.:rith the improvement "in collll1lunication. They are also faced Hith other pressures, other tempnations, brought on by an improvement in communication~ an improvement in travel, television and radio that even the youth of five years ago in this Province did not have to face.

They want to become involved because in my opinion/Mr. Speaker, thev are probably more concerned than their elders. I believe that they are more concerned than t·Te give them credit for, I believe }-1:r.

Speaker, that they realize that in their youth that these pressures sometimes are foreign to the teacher or tbt·the parent to whom they try to look for p,uidance. /ni we have not over the years anywhere in ~orth America sho"m or given the leader~hin to the youth of this Province to indicate to them that we are on the same "1avelength to indicate to them that He are prenared to work with them to take them into our confidence. ~·le have never indicated to them that t.re believe that even though they are eighteen or nineteen or t•Venty yenrs old that they may be far better informed than many of their fathers and their 2356.

April 17 1970 Tape 541 page 2 lb. grandfathers and that right now they can make a contribution to the future of this Province. The old traditions clie very very slowlyJMr. Speaker, and the tradition that probably lasted a bit longer in Newfoundland than in any other part of North America \·7as that no matter Hhat your avocation, no matter Hhat your profession, no matter what your job was that you had to se't"Ve your time.

And you might have to serve your time ten years or t\.,renty years or thit:ty years, and the philosophy got abroad that if a man served "his time for thirty years that if he had thirty years experience he \va~better than the man who had ten years experience or twenty. That .Mr. SpeKker~obviously is a lot of nonsense. It is particularly a lot of / nonsense in today's scheme ef things. It is a lot of nonsense in this part of the t~Tentieth century when knowledge is so readily and easily available and assimilated to the youth of ~ewfoundland.

In another debate, and I would hope that in a debate with almost / a special debate for want of a better word before this session is coming to a close, reference was made to the, I think a problem that the youth of NeHfoundland are facing today, which I doubt if their elders would be capable of coping Hith, by -themselves. And that is the dreadful problem, and it is a dreadful problem of drugs and drug trafficking that is creeping into Newfoundland. And despite what people in various areas might think it is not confined to any one particular part of Ne\.,rfourldland.

No part of this Province is immune and it is spreading with a great deal of rapidity. And the easiest thing Mr. Speaker, is to stand in this House and give a blanket condemnation that will cure nothing, Mr. Speaker. The trafficker, . ~is place in society is of dubious value.

But I am concerned, very much concerned with our young oeople who are being faced w:l"th these temptations ~Tho are being frustrated because they cannot find avenues in \vhich to dispense their energy that they have a feeling that the that this generation gap phrase is I think a Hrong rhrase - but they have :l feeling that "to'e do not want to understand them. They have a feelin~ that our educational svstem is not geared to youth. They have a feeling that our educational system is geared to the mere parody of \vords and curricula by ~eachers and the spitting back of this information by the student$ to 2357

April 17 1970 Tape 541 page 3. his or her teacher and the best ~arrot gets the best marks. Mr. Speaker, if even the title of this Act, even the changing of the name of the Department of Education to the Department of Education and Youth serves to point up an emphasis and emphasize to our young people that New~ foundland is for them It is no point of standing here in this House J Mr. Speaker, and sayine we want our Newfoundland youth to stay in New- foundland, ''e want to provide them jobs if we create an impression that they are simply going to be ~nother cog in a productive wheel.

He have to do, a great deal more than that 7Mr. Speaker. ~·]e have to convince the youth of this Province that nmv ~vhile they are still in their youth that they do not have to await adulthood or they do not have to mvait until they are on crutches before they ca~ make contribution to public life and other social activities throughout this Province. They have not got that feeling in· this Province~Hr. Speaker. } And I do not think that we can stand and look young people square in the eye and say _it is your fault. Because I think the fault;Mr.

Speaker, may lie very much with the adult rather than t-rith the youth. It is so easy to criticize, it is so easy to condemn, so easy)Mr. Sneaker, to say that these young Newfoundlanders should be spanked. They should not be spanked at all. But rather,and on the contrary ~fr.Speaker, they should be taken into our confidence. They should be shown in the field of education that the Department of Education, that the Government of the Province, that school boards and taachers are prepared to work . with them, to talk with them and not to talk at them.

And I ''ould hope that this Bill <which is one af a large number of Bills to brought forward / by the Hon. Minister of Education this yea;. 'vill tend to set the tone, set the co-operative tone between youth and education. It cannot be done simoly by passing one piece of legislation. It cannot be passed by massive or accomplished by massive directors from the Mintster of Education or from the Denutv ~!inister of Education, or from the Superintendents of the various school districts. It can only be done by giving proof positives to the youth of Newfoundland 23~8

April 17 1970 Tape 541 page 4 lb . that we are all on the same wave length, and I for one Mr. Speaker, have no hesitancy at all voting for the Bill even though it~~imply ke a formal Bill. And as the hon. minister of Education has-said this does very little in the way of changing administrative process. But at least he has indicated to this House that the change that is sought is to try and bring his department more in tune with the youth of this Province and I am all for it. MR.CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, as I see it this Bill is, does not really do anything except change the name of the Department of Education to Education and Youth. And one thing I have seen H accomplish so far is that it has made the hon. minister look even more hip and youthful than he usually looks. It might even have been better if they had called it1 the new department, the new department of Education and Beauty, it might have done even more for the minister. But youth, and \-7e have to admit that there is a generation gap between this side of the House and that side. But7Mr. Speaker, this Bill changes the name of the Department.

It does not give the department any more legislative authority at all. It does not introduce any new programmes for the youth of Newfoundland. All it does is change the minister's name to Education and Youth, the Deputy ~inister's name is the same way the Assistant Deputy Minister, the Associate Deputy l'!inister, in fact there are so many deputies and associates that it is almost a U.N. in that department no"1• with committees and all the rest of it. So the Bill actually does nothing for the youth of Newfoundland. Now we are expecting_Jir.

Speaker, the minister to shortly announce a ne'l-7 dyna'Glic programme that will nut him in tune with the youth of Ne~"foundlandJ 23rl9

mw April 17th., 1970 Tape no 542 Page 1 and I include myself, of course, as among the youth. All of us under forty are considered to be youthful. There . is a generation gap between the Leader of the House and the leader of the other groups in the House, I can tell you that, and if the young generation feel to be misunderstodd, I can assure the hon. members that we feel that "Te are very misunders toad over on this side of the House. So this Bill,, actually./'Hr. Speaker )does not do anythin8 except it changes the han. minister's name from the "Minister of Education " to the ''Minister · of Education and Youth.

" I would not doubt but encouraped by that)that this may increase the number of years in politics the hon. minister is going to stay in. That would have a very deleterious affect on the future of the Province, I would think. Now it may not be legislatively neeessary, but I assume that the minister is going to take over the things that the Department of Provincial Affairs has looked after such as:· grants to the boys' clubs.

I do not want to interrupt the han. minister, such as: grants to boys' clubs that and this kind of activity and ·J the han. minister will take over __ ._ the recreational program, that the han. Minister of Provincial Affairs has been administering for the last two years with a vote of $1.00 and I express the "to7ish that if the hon. minister is ~oinr, to do that, that the hon. minister is goin? to see some money expended this year under that recreation program, which he will recall was announced durin~ the Gander by-election, I think it was. The han. member for Gander would remember that.

That was basically a good program but the funds have not yet been provided for it~ ~e hon. member for Burin mentioned a very good point, too, undoubtedly it is one that the hon. minister is aware of. The use. of the recreational facilities that the schools have outside school hours. If the hon. ninister could come up l<ri th some kind of program where the Government could supervise the use of those f'lcill ties in the off-hours, lV"hen the schools are out , would be a !l'reat step foD vard. 2360

April 17th., 1970 Tape no. 542 Page 2 I agree ~.;rith the bon. member from Burin, when he talks about the generation gap. The only thing is that, I think, in every generation there is a gap and that the youth and older people, there has ah.;rays been a gap between the/4 '1-Thy should there not be one nmv? I do not see that all this talk and so on that you hear about really does that much good.

All 'I-re need to do is understand that they are challenging the society that they are getting their education under, not just in newfoundland but everywhere. ·To my mind that is a tremendously healthy sign, the more they challenge the assumptions of the established society, they are growing up in, the better off He are going to be in the future and as £or myself, Hr. Speaker, I do not ~vorry about that at all.

I think that when the present young people, twenty, twenty-one or so and under reach maturity in the next ten or fifteen years, l-7e should be a society that is much better off, if they stick at all to the ideals that they seem to have today. They are certainly much more interested in public affairs, public life, education, more alert, more socially conscious and more admirably inclined in every respect, more free wheeling, and they a.re wiling to go off and w~nder around the country or w~nder around the world for a year or tl-m, not worrying too much about getting down to the grind of earning a living.

In the meantime, they come in educated and in every way I think they are better off and the only reab·danger is the be drug one that the hon. member for Burin mentioned, which can car~ed to extremes and become a great danger. So certainly I have no objection to the Bill, Hr. Speaker, and I hope that it is a foretaste of nel-7 policies of the Government for the youth of the Province or that funds are going to be provided to carry out the present policies of the Government that have not been funded as of yet in the field of recreation. MR. SHALUJOOD : Hr.

Speaker, at lunch today, a group of us were talking about a number of things, and I quoted the aphorism that is frequently heard in France to the effect that"the more things chan~e. the IT'Ore they are 23G1

April 17th., 1970 Tape no. 542 Page 3 the same." I do not know any saying that is more false than that in this world that we are living in today. I guess it was true to an enormous extent down through the long centuries but I do not think it describes the world that we are living in now. The more things change the less they are the •:same, I think, and we are living in a world now that bears precious little resemblanc~ to the world in which we grew up, most of us in this_Chamber, -h~Lf of us anyway.

Somebody said that, now I have forgotten the figures, but I will imagine the figures, they are approxinately correct. If I knew them precisely, I would say so. In the first 5,000 years of civilization, knowledge doubled in this \oiOrld and that in the next 1,000 years, knowledge doubled and in the next 500 years it doubled and in the next lQO years it doubled, and it has doubled in the last ten years.

Nmv, Sir, if that is true and it is, I think, approximately true, and the periods, I am speaking from memory, may be it is the last twenty years that knowledge has doubled, b(tt there is twice as much knowledge in the world today as there was U>7enty years ago. It may be ten years. It may be eighteen, I do not know. I do not remember precisely. If that is true, Sir, if there is ~hat kind of absolute explosion of knowledge, pity the poor youngsters growing up today. The most educated man on the earth is an utter igncnamus except in very limited. very. very limited field.

You can only hope at most, if you are a great scholar and an omniferous reader \onth a remarkable memory and a tremendous intensity of intellectual curosity, you can only hope at ~ost, if you are a phenomenal man, if you a~e a BertrandRussell, a·brain on bvo spindley legs, you can only hope at most to master a corner of a corner, a little segment of a corner of the knm.;rle<;ir,e there is in the Y:orld.

They tell me that tl:e number of books published in the Soviet Union on enrineering and technolop,ical the~es of all kinds are numb~red in the tens of thousands, and we knoH that in the United States and the l'nited 23G2

April 17th., 1970 Tape no. 542 Page 4 Kingdom, and other countries in the world, the writing and the publication of books containing endless varities of knowledge is something that is almost frightening. There is no physical seience that you can mention in .. which there is not this same explosion.

Now, Sir, if that is so, and it would appear to be so, what chance has any youngster growing up today, to become educated, because '1-lhen they are thoroughly educated, usinp: the wo!!d "educated" now in the very narrow sense of being informed: ten years later everything they have learned is outdated and ~rrong, not so anymore. You can only be educated today for a short whi~e and after you are out-of-date. Everything you leaned was wrong, youJ .got to hegin allover again, because you cannot - tllere is no human way to keep up with the explosion of knowledge 1 23G3

JW April 17, 1970 Tape #543 Page 1 t• llt:l!liliUil: ..Qpart altogether from the question : of jobs, of learning how to do a job and then learning when that job becomes obselete, and the techniques that you learn become useless to you. Learning the new techniques, because that is a gigantic thing because the greatest obsolescence is not the obsolescence of machinery, but of techniques of ways of working. Now.JSir, that is fact number one,- and by the way a very good example of it is this splash-down. Utterly incredible, unbelieveable fact, that a machine I saw, .the duplicate of it, I saw of them.

I saw two of the things that splashed down and they recovered them and I saw them in Kennedy the Lunar Modules. I saw two that were recovered. I walked around them. I looked in the windows, and I said, in God's name were two men in that and blasted off. No I did not see the Russian one. Yes I did, I saw it in Brussels, the first Sputnik that went up. That is fact number one. Fact number two is, that side by side with this altogether incredible explosion of knowledge and development of science, side by side with it is almost the disappearance of religious faith in our world. It is virtually dying out.

Even in some of the great liturgical churches, some of the great historic churches, today what used to be monoliths, what used to be impregnable, what used to be unchanging and unchangeable, great institutions, are shaky, actually shaky today. Now that is fact number three. Now put them altogether, and how in God's name can you expect the youth of today to have stability, psychological health and stability. Is it not marvellous that you have not got more than you have of psychological instability, of mental instability, actual mental instability. Nervous breakdowns, nervous collapses.

I have seen some figures that have come out of the University, students up there that have frightened me. The lack of security, the lack of anchorage, the lack of painters, that you tie on a boat with. The lack of direction, the lack of, what a friend of mine called "hitching-posts," You know in the Western movies, the . ~owboy gallops up and he throws himself off, he throws the rein around the hitching post and he goes in and has a 23G4

JW April 17, 1970 Tape 0543 Page 2 drink. The hitching-post - the lack the disappearan~e of hitching posts. They are set loose. They are loose from their anchorages, they are loose from their moorings, they are drifting and they are drifting in a world which is the last thing there ever was in uncertainty and lack of direction, lack of purpose, lack of arrived knowledge. Because there is no more arrived knowledge. There was a time when you could say there was an arrived fact, that was it.

You could accept it, you learned it when you were a boy, when you were nineteen, it was still the same fact, it had not changed. Now to try to get something for ten years without changing. It is virtually impossible, so you are in a world that is moving with a speed, psychologically speaking, everybody is travelling in these modules. Everybody in the world is travelling in them, not physica~ly, but intellectually and mentally. And we are not made for it. What the end is going to be I do not know. Now I am not the first man of my age to wonder what is going to happen to the younger generation.

Everybody since time began when he reached middle age and over began to "tut-tut" about the youngsters growing up, the new generation, the young crowd growing up, you know "tut-tut" what are they coming to? MR. ROWE: That was on the first "tut" that was ever on earth. MR. SMALLWOOD: Was it? "Tut-tut, what are they coming to?" '~ere was this in Mesopotamia? Yes that was in Mesopotamia between the two rivers. Hammurabi. They have been bemoaning this and groaning and moaning about it for a long long time.

But)Sir, no one can tell me that the reasons for moaning about that ten thousand years ago, two thousand, three thousand before Christ, that the reasons for moaning then, if there were reasons, and I suppose there must have been. Or they must have there were, or they would not have been moaning audibly. If the reasons for moaning then about youth, are surely not the reasons they are now today. Surely it is a di~ferent world now from that one. AN. HON. MEMBER: Alcohol was a problem in ancient Egypt. MR. SMALLWOOD: Alcohol might have been a problem, I do not know that drugs 23G5

JW April 17, 1970 Tape U543 Page 3 ever were a problem as they are now. It would curdle your blood. It turns your blood cold. I say~Mr. Speaker, there is scarcely a parent in Newfoundland this afternoon, on the Island and in Labrador, scarcely a parent, with children or grandchildren in the University, scarcely a parent or a grand- parent in Newfoundland today, who is not secretly torn inside with worry and concern as to whether this menace, this poison is eating out the vitals of their own flesh and blood in the University. And in the schools. How do you know? How can you tell? They do not talk to you anymore.

When they are sixteen and seventeen years old now, they are as far advanced in knowledge as they used to be at twenty-eight and thirty. And there is a gap, let us not kid ourselves, there is a gap. The gap is there. When my three children were growing up. I cannot say what I was going to say because he may not call me a liar, but he will think I am pulling the long bow, but at any rate, when my children were growing up, there was at least some rapprochement. There was some understanding. But the children who are growing up today, do you think the parents can help them?

They talk foreign, they talk different languages. They a~e living in another world. SOME HON. MEMBER: You cannot help them in mathematics. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mathematics? You cannot help them in anything. And they do not want to be helped. They are not interested in being helped. They do not think you are capable of helping them, They do not think you are capable of helping them. They live in a world that makes them sort of despise the old fogies, who grew up in another world, who knew nothing. And mind you Mr.

Speaker, it is not like the old saying, the youngfellow who said, "when I was sixteen, seventeen years old, I marvelled at how little my parents knew, My father knew, and when I was sixty I marvelled at how little I knew." It is now like that. Af forty he realized, he began to realize how much his father really did know, and at sixty he began to realize how little he himself knew. It is not like that anymore. Today youngsters when they get in Grade Ten and Eleven and from there on, not only marvel at how ignorant their parents are and their grandparents and people older than themselves,

April 17, 1970 Tape 0543 Page 4 how utterly ignorant they are, but they go on increasing their wonder. They never lose their wonder, because the gap widens. It deepens and widens. Now;how is it going to end? Do you think my bon. friend the Minister of Education is going to · change it? No. Do you think bringing

an Act in here, debating it and giving it a third reading, the Governor signing it, that that is going to change it? Do .you think you can set up a Department of Education and Youth, or just a separate department of youth. I have colleagues with me in this Government who come to me and they talk and they talk and they talk. The Minister of Supply and Services, deeply concerned about it, never stops nagging me, because he can be a bit of a nag, a bit of a scold. You know, he should be put in the stocks. This is what they used to do with the scolds in the old days, put them in the stocks for three days.

Hounding us about youth, youth, youth. What are you going to do for youth in Newfoundland~ And I must confess that I am torn between taking the perfectly conventional way out of just building this and building that, you know, pretending that you are really trying to solve it. And that on the one hand, and on the other, a moody and discouraged feeling that it is largely loves labour lost. Loves labour lost. And then in the midst of that. I remember Brother Goodland, a fountain of wisdom.

Brother Goodland and two or three other Christian Brothers came in one Sunday to my house, and I made them stop and have a bite with me and we talked until ten or eleven o'clock in the night. And I said, "Brother, tell me," and I must tell you who was with him, the old man, Brother Quinn. In fact he brought them there. Brother Quinn and I were great friends. He used to come up and stay with me for week-ends and I loved that man. He was crazy about children.

And he brought these brothers up - Brother Goodland - and we all got into a tremendous discussion, not an argument, discussion, and I was talking along this line. And I said "come on n.ow . . Brother, tell me, you know a lot of kids, hundreds of them, and thousands of them, tell me what do you think of them?" He says, "wonderful," I said, "do you mean that?" He said, "yes, wonderful, they are wonderful." I said, 23G7

April 17, 1970 Tape i1543 Page 5 ''in what way?" "Well, be said, in the old times, in most of my life teaching, you had a class, you told them; tl)ey accepted it, they did not argue, they did not doubt you, they accepted it. Now 2368

April 17 1970 Tape 544 page 1. lb said you got to prove it, we "1ant the blueprints, where is your evidence? PYove it brother, how do you knm•1 Well, now alright, up to a point that is "mnderful. After all St. Paul said: ''Prove all things, and cleave to that ~-.'hich is good," is that how it goes? Prove all things but, when you get a bunch of students in classroom and they start to make the teacher prove everything he says, and ~-rill accept no such a thing as the authority of a teacher even if he is a Christian Brother. and it is bad is i~1not? It is wonderful, it is remarkable.

It is good It is different, there ~·laS never anything like it before. It is unique, it is something ne~v in the "Torld. Who is smart enough to see where it is going to go? P'ho is clever enough for that? Is it possible I wonder to substitute rationalism, agnosticism almost ~•orship of science. A complete blank refusal to accept any statement from anyone ~·7ithout the evidence, indeed Hithout the proof.

Could you substitute all that and have a healthy psychologically people aftenvards, can you substitute all that sort of thing, science, reason, education, knowledge, logic, substitute all that for religious faith, and when I say religious faith I do not necessarily mean this or that or the other kind I just mean religious faith. }fure than just belief in God. Practise, not just a faith but belief but practise, The practise of religion. Can you substitute all that for the practise of religion and have a human race that will be sane and rational and wholesome and healthy and reasonably human.

AN HON.ME~~F:R: No. ~m.. S!-'fALUJOOD: The hon. ~entleman says no. I am powerfully inclined to agree with him. Pm·Terfully inclined to agree with him, and yet Hho can doubt that that is the direction that "'e are heading. Pho can doubt that? precisely the direction the tvorld is taking. bB_.H01'!_:lfE~_A_~ And end un in disaster. That is ~fR.S~!ALUJOOD: I do not know, I do not know. It may be that after 11. hundred years of it •md sufferinr. :1nd may he some ~-·ars and revolutions :md Cod in Heaven Kno~•s lntat. May be at the end, the end of the rainbow, may be success. 2369

April 17 1970 Tape 544 page 2. lb. }fR.MTJRPHY: It all depends hmv you find education. l'fR.St-fALI.WOOD: I was not thinking so much of education as I \<Yas thinkin~ of knolvledge and information and this utterly appalling spread of knowledge. Does the hon. the J,eader o'f the Opposition realize hm-1 completely ignorant he and I are, he does not? Well, that is hmv ignorant he is, he does not even realize how ignorant he is and I am. MR.HURPHY: I have a better education today than fifty per cent of the boys coming out of University.

My idea of education , I mean they might read a lot of books MR.SMALLHOOD: I was not thinkinr, of education, thinking of information. But an ignoramus he and I are. Now this is the first time I · have ever been able to call hiM an ignoramus and smile and he smiles back. But I am enjoying myself with him, both of us and all of us in this Chamber, just a crowd of ignoramuses compared with the great vast body of knmvledge there is.

He have not even got - you knm·l ,.1hat it is like - if this whole .building ~vere the body of knm.;rledge,qo you know ho'l-l much any one person has in this Chamber, half a thimble, No matter how knowledgeable we are. Cannot prove it? If I could prove it, then it would not be true \<rould it? Proving it to be true would be proving it untrue. ~·!e are going to vote now are we? We have another enga~ement, we are going and are they coming to? }fR. CURTIS: Yes, they are coming too. MR. SMALU!OOD: \\'e are going in the Liberal caucus room to say au revoir or even farelvell to Aiden Maloney.

So I have great pleasure in .;o I do not know l·7hat the Bill is, I really did not read it , I do not know what it is, but I supoort it and I l·Yill vote for it. MR.HURPHY: Hr. Speaker, I adjourn the debate at this time . H~. SPEAKER·:· Noved and seconded that this debate be adjourned. HR.Ct'RTIS: I move/Mr. Speaker, that the House at its rising do adjourn until tomorrow Tuesday at three of the ciock. It is moved and seconded that this House at its rising do adjourn until tomorro\<• Tuesday at .3 p.m. 23~'0