THIS IS THE LIBRARY'S CIRCULATING COPY OF NUME£R 42- 1970. PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Voluml1 Number 42 4th. Session 34th. G__, Aamlbty VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, APRIL 22,1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

Ap-ril 22nd., 1970 Tape no. 579 The Rouse met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. BON. J. R. SMALLWOOD: (Premier): Page 1 Mr. Speaker, in behalf of all hon. members of the House, I wish to extend a heart-felt welcome today, not just cordial but from the bottom of my heart and an nostalgic welcome as well to some forty llOSt beautiful young ladies, the most beautiful young ladies that we have had in the House this session, not only the most beautiful, but the most intelligent, the best looking young ladies and why? Because they are from Grade VII in St. Augustine's School at Littledale.

Why do ! praise them so highly? Because that is my alma mater. That is the school ! went to, when I was a small boy and when they use to allow boys in there as well as girls, and here they are today, students from my second oldest alma maters, one of quite a few schools I attended at Littledale. There are here with Mrs. Gatherall and Sister Theresa O'Leary. They are two of the teachers present, and never were students and teachers mote welcome in this House than these are here today from my old school at Littledale. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if :the Leader of the Opposition, when he extends a welcome to these students, if he gets off any cracks about the fact that ! went to a girls' school, let me tell him that ! did no such thing. ! did not go to a girls' school. It may be a girls' school today, l do not know. But in my time, it was co-ed. There were boys and girls there. I told the story before of how when they came each day to teach catechism, the nun would say, Ul. right get out your catechisu and Joey you can go out if you want to and Joey always wanted to go.

Surprisingly, I always went out, when catechism was on and the Opposition may say that that is the reason I am like I am. May be I would be a lot better, if I had stayed behind and learned the catechism. Anyhow it certainly would not have done me any harm. lt probably did do me some harm not to stay behind and learn the catechism and I have been trying to make up for that all my life ever since, trying to learn catechism and all that goes with it. Anyhow ! am very bappy that they are here, and I am sure that the Leader of the Opposition will get up full of envy. He will be jealous. He will

April 22nd., 1970 Tape no. 579 Page 2 envious of me, that he cannot say that he attended this school that has such beautiful, intelligent, lovely looking young· ladies, the most beautiful that have been in and the most intelligent that have been 1n tnis House chi~ y~a~. •a. Speaker, I pity the Leader of the Opposition that he did not have the chance that I had to go to that lovely school. ifR. ANTHONY J. MURPHY (Leader of the 01)'DOSition): Mr. Speaker, I thank the bon. Premier for his sympathy, in welcoming the children from St. Augustine, Littledale.

I sometimes wonder, if Littledale has s0111ewhat a dubious claim to fame by having the Premier attend there and it has been suggested to me, perhaps, that he bas dropped out of more schools in Newfoundland than anybody else. But sineerely, Mr. Speaker, I would join with the bon. Premier in extending a welcome. I . am taking the Premier's word for it that these young ladies are beautiful. I have asked many times for a mirror on that side of the House so we could see the beautiful guests on this side, but another Opposition request turned down.

I am very happy to see these kids here today, or to know that they are here, and to welcome them very sincerely and trust that what they learn here today, w.ll not in anyway impinge on their future, that they will still retain the morality that Littledale is noted for and that their visit will be enjoyable and educational and perhaps, you . are:honoured today. to see so many famous persons spread before you '· on the floor of the House here. I do not think i .t is too often that we have this happen, and they can judge for themselves how good looking these men are, compared to us Newfoundlanders.

I do not think they can come up to us aetually, but that is only Tll'J personal opinion. But again, Mr. Speaker, I would like to extend a very hearty welcome to these girls from St. Au gus tines and their teacher, Mrs • Ga therall and Sister Theresa O'Leary, a good Irish name, and trust that their stay will be indeed pleasan ' and edueational. Thank you. MR. JOHN CROSBIE Mr. Speaker, we would like to join in welcoming the students fTom Littledale and their teachers.

It is always pleasant to realize that the Premier is a graduate of Littledale, because I am a graduate of Bishop Spencer, an old Speneerian, and I graduated from Kindergarten there. We hope on this side oft ~·· 2508

April 22nd., 1970 -Tape no. 579 Page 3 House that after the next election, which we all know will not be for many months yet, there will be another graduate of Littledale up in the galleries looking down upon us in the next session of the House, following the. election. If that is not so, of course, we will just have to put up with it, and they aay change the name of Littledale, of course, the "Bigdale" some_day, when they recognize some of their graduates. But, Mr.

Speaker, we are glad to see these young ladies here and their teachers and hope that they will be much more fully informed on the project that is now before us by the end of the afteTUoon, when these gentlemen are fiuished answering the questions that are put to them. MR. JOHN NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, as the member for the district in which · St. Augustine Littledale is located, I would like to join with the hon. the Premier, the · Leader of the Opposition and the chief from St. John's West in welcoming . the students from Littledale today.

It gives ~ an opportunity also to correct a statement made on a number of occasions in this House, during this past couple of years by the Premier and the statement being that he was the only one sitting in t~is House who was a graduate or a drop-out if you like from Littledale. I would like to say that be was wrong on a number of occasions in the past, and while I was not here durinr his remarks today, if he said so today, he would still be wrong, because I also attended Littledale and I am very happy and proud that I did.

I believe the custom of that time was in the Kindergarten at Littledale, when you reached the. age of twelve years of age, if you were a boy, you were expected to leave~ This I did. MR. MURPHY: Did the bon. minister live near the Premier? MR. NOLAN: No, actually he probably. I am not sure, but be may have winded his way to Littledale from pretty much the same location. I do not know where be lived at the time. I lived on the western end of the Southside Road. He also lived in that locality, but whether he attended Littledale at that time or not, I do not know.

There was a custom at Littledale, and I believe it still prevails that fol: 25D9

April 22nd., 1970 Tape no. 579 Page 4 the lunch break, all of the students would line up in the auditorium and someone would play the piano, usually it was "Anchors Away" as I remember, and ~e Grade XI students, Grade XII, Graae XI would be in the first p•rt of the line, and then you would come down to the end, where you would have, in my case, kindergartens down at the back.

I remember one day, in particular, I along with another resident of the Southside Road area, who was also in kindergarten, at the time, a boy, who had a sister in Grade XI, decided that we would be very, very brave and we promptly strutted up to the first of the line to join with the sister who was in Grade XI and to march around the as auditorium at that time with her. One of the sisters, at that time, I recall took a dim view of this boldness on our part, because you would after parading around the auditorium for two or three times, you would go in a branch off to your various classrooms.

What happened in our cases was that we did this.

We were up where we were not supposed to be and I believe it was Sister Augustine, but I a. ~t sure, eventually took both me and the other gentleman concerned, and made us kneel out in the corridor for an hour or so and the one memory I have of that occasion was that my young friend was sentenced to kneel, I believe . beneath a statue of Michael the Archangel, and to this day, I can still see him trembling in fear, because he thought the sword was bound to drop and I believe the sister eventually forgave him and got him out of there, and he came back into the classroom and took his place, but I would like very much to join with the other members today inwelcoming the students especially, Mrs.

Gatherall and Sister Theresa O~'Leary and Nolan ta also an Irish name to the House of Assembly. Thank you very much. _MR. THOMAS BURGESS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join in welcoming the students from Littledale. Yes the fact that it was mentioned, I do come from Ireland, and I just wanted to impart a piece of information to these students that despite the fact of how proud they might feel that their Premier comes from that school and the fact the Premier of the Province is a graduate, belies the fact that it is rumored that he was the smartest kid in second grade for four years.

I do not know what that makes the rest of us really. because despite the fact he 25!·0

April 22nd., 1970 Tape no. 579 Page 5 seems to be constantly out-smarting us all, but I would like to join in welcome. I just wanted to impart that piece of information to them. I know he got a kick out of it to. BmJ WILLIAM R. CALLAHAN (Hinister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources: Mr. Speaker, I cannot, even I wanted to, I cannot avoid rising for a brief minute at this point. Let me say, and I think I heard the Premier admit ou one occasion that his perambulations from school to school had earned him the reputation of being somewhat-of being somewhat o.f an "educational cocktail", but this is not why I rose.

Why I rose, simply, Sir, is that the young ladies and their teachers in the gallery are my close neighbours and also three of my daughters and two of my nieces attend St. Augustines, and I have no choice but to rise, because if I did not, my house would not be a very pleasant place at which to arrive and to live tonight. But I can vouch from my personal experience, the experience of my daughters that St.

Auguatines is a very wonderful place to go to school and sometimes I wish I were some years younger and in a position to take advantage, as the Premier and my colleague the Minister of Supply and Services of the experience of attending that school. I do warmly welcome the students from St. Augustines and their teachers to this House today. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 2511

April 22, 1970 Tape #580 Page 1 Presenting Petitions: MR. A. J. MURPIIT (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of a district I do not represent, and usually I do the member or members of that district the courtesy of informing them that this petition has been passed to me, but unfortunately the representatives are not in the House at this moment. So I will proceed to present this petition on behalf of some 337 voters of the district of Harbour Main.

We the undersigned pe9ple of Fox Trap, voters in the district of Harbour Main do hereby pray and entreat the rural development division of the Department of Municipal Affairs to rescind the stringent regulations pertaining to the acquisition of permits for the erection of homes along the Fox Trap access road. And the refusal to grant home owners carte blanche t«•and from that highway while concurring that there is need for amicable regulations pertainin~ to health, properly designed erections and the size of building lots.

I have been requested by a delegation Sir, from Fox Trap to present this petition to the House, and pray that some consideration will be given to owners of land fronting on the access road who find it impossible almost to obtain permission to build on that access road. What the actual legislation is pertaining to it Sir, I must admit I am not quite familiar with it, but it seems to be somewhat of a hardship on these people, and I pray that this petition be placed on the Table of the House, and referred to the department to which it relates. MR.

SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that this petition be received aad referred to the department to which it relates. Those in favour, "aye," contrary, "nay," carried. Notice of Motion: HOH. L. R. CURTIS (Minister of Justice): I give notice Mr. Speaker, that I will on to1110rrow ask leave to introduce four 'Bills. A Bill,"Aft Act to Amend the Taxation Agreement Ac:t." A Bill, "An Act To Amend the Telegraph Tax Act." A Bill, "An Act Further to Amend the Civil Service Act," A Bill, "An Act Further to Amend the Pensions, Premiums Act , 1 66- 1 6 7 • "

April 22, 1970 Tape #580 Page 2 ORDERS OF TilE DAY: MR. SMAJ.LWOOD: Mr. Speaker, before we go into the business that we left off last night, I want to say that one of the most important statements ever delivered I think in this House, and certainly the most important one of the present Session, is to be brought down here today by arrange- .ent with the Government of Canada at a time that has been agreed between us and Ottawa. And that is that three o'clock our time - three thirty our time, about an hour from now.

In ten minutes from now, eight minutes fro~ now, by the Minister of Community and Social Development, and it take is a ainisterial statement. It should precedence over any other business of the House for the period of time it may require for him to deliver JW this statement. The statement may be delivered similtaneously at Ottawa and St. John's.

So that in starting the resumption of yesterday's business here today, it mu~t be understood that we have this extremely important ministerial statement, having to do with DREE, and the DREE program for Newfouddland in the presen~ year, and the spending of the money that is to be spent. HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, while we are waiting, th•· Minister wants · to make his ministerial statement at 3:30 P.M. I would like to ask a question of Mr. Shaheen. Mr. Shaheen with reference to the agreement that was passed in 1968 that you were referring to yesterday. I wonder if you could tell me.

I just want to find out if certain contracts have been entered into yet. Under

Section 4 (

c) of the agreement, Provincial Building Company Limited which is a Corporation owned by the G overnment of Newfoundland, was to enter into an agreement with Newfoundland Refining Company Limited, which is your company pursuant to which you · would super- vise construction of the plant and would be reimbursed for all your direct salary costs, plus one hundred percent. Could you tell me whether that agreement has been entered into, between Newfoundland Refining aad Provincial Building Corporation Limited? MR. SHAHEEN: Mr.

Speaker, a legal member of our staff who has intimate personal knowledge of that, I think might give a very direct answer Sir. MR. B~E: Mr. Speaker, there has been an-agreement entered into in 25::."3

JW April 22, 1970 Tape #580 Page 3 accordance with Paragraph C. Clause (4) of the agreement. MR. CROSBIE: Under Paragraph (

d) of

Section 4 - The operating co~any of oil refinery which is a Newfoundland-owned Crown Corporation has lefining is to manage the plant for a fee equal to twenty-seven and eight­ tenths percent of the annual net profit. Could you tell us - and the Refining is to be reimbursed by all out-of-pocket expenses in connection with operating the Oil Refinery at Come-by-Chance. Has that agreement been entered into? MR. SMITH: Yes Sir, an a~reement in accordance with Paragraph d, Clause (4) of the agreement has been entered into. MR. CROSBIE: Now under

Section (

e) of that same Section; Our Crown Corporation, the . Newfoundland Government's Crown Corporation is to enter into a sales agency agreement with Newfoundland Refining, where Newfoundland Refining, Mr. Shaheen's Company is to be the sales agent for all the products produced by the Refinery for a fee equal to five point one percent of the amount of the gross sales of the operating company, and where Newfoundland Refining is to be reimbursed for all its out-of-pocket expenses, while doing that. Has that agreement been entered into? HR. SMITH: An agreement has been entered into in accordance with Paragraph e Clause (

f) of the agreement. HR. CROSBIE: Tell me then Mr. Blake what is the paid-in capital of Newfoundland Refining Company Limited? MR. BLAKE: It is a private matter Sir. HR. CROSBIE: But under the Newfoundland Company's Act, it is public information. It has to be filed there. The latest return that it paid in capital of twenty dollars. Do you know whether that is correct or not? HR. BLAKE: If this is a public matter then it is a public matter. MR. CROSBIE: Could you tell us then what we paid in capital of Newfoundland Refining Company Limited? MR. BLAKE: This is a matter which is off the record, and 1 do not have 2514

April 22, 1970 Tape #580 Page 4 statements with me here. If you care to get them. then we will check the public records. "" MR. CROSBIE: Well this was what was filed up _ to several weeks ago, so I would assume that would be correct. MR. BLAKE: We have filed what is required and if this is shown then this is accurate. MR. CROSBIE: Could you tell me on another matter when Mr. Brokaw ( I think that is the right pronounciation) gave us some information on the loans arranged over in England through ECGD and from the banks in England.

And he said that the interest rate was five and a half percent on these loans that have been arranged. Could you tell us whether there are any other finance costs involved. For ex~le, Kleinwort Benson and the other banks, are they to be paid any financial commissions, or other commissions in connection with the loans? MR. !LIKE: This is an agreement between Provincial Building and Kleinwort Benson. This is a crown corporation. This again I think was indicated to you yesterday as being private business. MR.

CROSBIE: These loans were arranged by a Newfoundland Refining in accordance with their obligations under this public agreement, which was attached to the Act of 1968. This has all been arranged by the Shaheen organization has it not? MR. BLAKE: We have complied with our requirements under the agreement as far as the arrangements that were entered into in London between Provincial Building and Kleinwort Benson - this was a matter that was indicated to you yesterday, that of these agreements which as of yet have not been dis­ closed, whether the Government tables them or not, is something that has to be determined.

MR. CROSBIE: Well we were talking yesterday about the interest rate being 5~ percent. There is no secret about that. Now I am asking you what is the real cost of raising this money, is it in effect 6 percent or 6~ percent because of certain commissions that would have to be paid the banks involved and other people. If 5~ percent of interest zate is public information, 25:!:5

JW April 22, 1970 Tape #580 Page 5 then surely this other business will be public information also. HR. BLAKE: No Sir, as far as I am concerned I have not revealed this, and this is a matter which you would have to obtain from the Government. This is again a matter of information that is contained in the agreements and should be obtained from the Government, which is the stockholder of the Crown Corporation which entered into the agreement with Kleinwort Benson. HR. CROSBIE: Can you tell us Mr. Blake, you are familiar with the legal document.

Under the agreement between the Shaheen organization and the Government of Newfoundland, is Mr. Shaheen or his organization obliged in any way to reinvest in Newfoundland any profits that they might make from the Oil Refinery operation? MR. BLAICE: Whatever the agreement said is what we do. I ean read the eatire agreement if we have time, but I do not think there is time. MR. CltOSBIE: You are familiar with the agreement. I a just asking you if there is anything in the agreement which puts any legal obligation on the Shaheen organization to reinvest any of the profits from the Oil Refinery back in Newfoundland?

MR. SMALLWOOD: Tke hon. gentleman knows, so he need not ask, he knows. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, this is quite a proper question. Is there any- thing in the agreement that obliges the Shaheen organization to reinvest any money in Newfoundland? HR. SMALLWOOD: Point of order! To a point of order! We are here to get information from these gentlemen that we can not get elsewhere, or from others. They are not here to read the Aet or to interpret the Act. They have to carry out the Act, and it is not their function to explain the Act to us. Their function is to obey the Act. And the Act is public property.

Copies of it are in the hands of all hon. members. This House passed the Act. It is a law we passed two years ago. I do not think it ~ in order to be asking these gentlemen whom we have invited here to explain the Act to us. We made the Act. It is ouT Act. The bon. gentleman who is askin~ to explain the Act to us. We made the Act, it is ouT Act. The hon. gentleman vho ·la asking the questions is the one who drew the Act. Re wrote it.

Alldl 22, 1970 Talte #580 Page 6 Or he is one of the three or four ministers who wrote it. And to be asking these men here to explain the Act, or to interpret the Act is not why they are here. I think it is completely out of order. JW MR. CROSBIE: On that point of order Mr. Sneaker. We are h~re t.~ quest1nn the Government and these gentlemen who are guests of the House on this project. I have not asked them to read this Act or read the agreement. I have asked their man who is familiar with the agreement a question, whether they are obliged in any way at all, to reinvest any profits back in New­ foundland.

I know the answer. The answer is no. But it is a perfectly pro~er questien. And Hr. Speaker, there have been many questions asked here by the other side of the House. They know the an~rs to it because they bad a private meetin~ with these gentlemen. So we are getting the information for the public not just for ourselves, so I will pass on and leave that question. HR. MURPHY: Point of order Mr. Speaker. With reference to the Premier's statement when members of this House are furnished with copies of this Act. I do ·not how many members of this House received telephone calls with reference to Hr.

Shaheen's reference to Law 86. I am wondering if we could get enough copies printed to satisfy these people, so as they could understand what we are talking about. MR. SPEAKER: Is the hon. member wishing to speak on a point of order? MR. BURGESS: Mr. Speaker, this question was asked not for the benefit of the hon. member for St. John's West, but for the benefit of the people of Newfoundland, who are not - I did not particiltat~ in the agreement, and the aajority, the vast, vast majority of Newfoundland did not participate in the drafting of the agreement. The agreement as such is on my desk right now. The

interpretation of the agreement, I would like to have. And the only way we can have this

interpretation is by getting direct answers from the people who are a party to this agreement. Now if questions are asked to eXltlain or interpret Sections of this agreement, I think that the people, the guests of this House are obliged to interpret to direct questions, 25!7

A1'r11 22, 1970 Tape #580 Page 7 a questions that are not violation of the ~~;round rules that have been laid down as far as this proceeding is concerned. MR. SPEAKER: I will repeat what I said yesterday. Our terms of reference are quite clear. To begin with, to ask questions concerning the progress achieved since the passage of the Act, and the economic liability of the project. And I will go further and repeat again what I said yesterday, that every bon. member has the right to ask questions of these guests, vho are here at our invitation.

He can ask the question, but once the answer is given, or a person replies that there is good and sufficient reason why he could not answer it, then the answer whatever it is, is not subject to debate. I have given my ruling on the point of order, aad if bon. members will keep within these limits, the questioning will proceed orderly. But there must be no comment on the questions and start a debate on the answers that are given. I think we have to be sure of and keep the questioning and the replies in an orderly manner. Will the bon. member continue with his question? MR. CROSBIE: In that case M~.

Speaker, if the minister wants to make his statement, I will wait. 251.8

April 22nd., 1970 Tape ao. 581 Page 1 HON. WILLIAM N. ROWE (Minister of Community and Social Services): Mr. Speaker, I waited until this moment to make this ministerial statement, since the is bon. John Marchand, the Minister of DREE in Ottawa probably on his feet at this moment making a similar statement in the House of Commons. rne s~a~emen~, Sir, is in the nature of a jointly agreed press release by Mr. Marchand and myself with a few additional comments by myself alon~ to follow . thereafter. The statement is as follows, Mr.

Speaker: "An $82 million agreement on development projects in Newfoundland is announced today by the Federal and Provincial Governments. The agreement was signed yesterday, April 21st. The signatory for Canada was the bon. John Marchand, m.nister of Regional and Economic Expansion that is DREE and for Newfoundland, myself as Minister of Community ~nd Social Development. The agreement covers projects to be started this ye~r and financed by the department of Regional and Economic Expansion through a mixture of grants and loans to the Province.

Federal funds co111111itted for the present fiscal year ending March 31st., 1970-71, are $31 million in grants and $10.2 million in loans. The remainder of the work . is to be completed by June 30th., 1972 with the ceiling for additional Federal payments of $31 million in grants and $9.4 million in loans, making the total already given of $82 million committed this year. the agreement covers projects in the eight special areas recently designated in Newfoundland and Labrador, together with highway construction in a number of other areas of the Province. The p~ojects in the St.

John's spec~al area include development of a serviced industrial park, water and sewer work for the Mount Pearl,Newtovn and at Holyrood; a new road to link the Mount Pearl area to·. the harbour and to the Trans Canada Highway and three new schools and the extension of another school. In Corner Brook, also, the projects include an ~ndustrial park, aa well as, road construction and water and sever services for ::. new redidental areas. In other special areas, the projects are designed to meet pa~icular priority needs for schools, for water and sewer services and roads.

Outside the special areas, the Federal Government will finance a substantial 25 ::.·9

April 22nd., 1970 Tape no. 581 Page 2 additional program of highway construction. The projects include the Burin Peninsula road, the Baie Verte road, the road from Lethbridge to from the Rr. Breton area to Ba~ d' Espoir and a number of forest access roads. Highway construction will be financed by the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion entirely by grants Other projects will be financed in varying ways by grants and by loans. Mr. Marchand and I point out that the present agreement relate solely to new projects to be undertaken this year. It is additional to existing programs.

The Federal Department of Regional and Economic Expansion also contributes to the development in the Province through its industrial incentives and through its financial support of the resettlement program and of ARDA projects and certain continuing A.D.B. projects. All of these programs, Mr. Speaker, will continue. The new agreement makes arrangements for close Federal-Provincial co-operation of a kind never previously attempted in the implementation of these projects.

It also establishes a joint planning committee through which the two Governments expect to develop a four year plan in additional to this one for the special areas covering projects to be started from next April oawards. Mr. Marchand and I state our belief that the agreement marks a great step forward in the development of the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador and the provision to the people of the Province of services that will aid further development.

Never before has Federal development assistance been given to the Province on such a large scale and never before, Sir, has Federal assistance been given to such diversified projects of benefit to so many people of the Province. Mr. Marchand and I express our expectation that this is only the beginning of a joint development effort that will over the next five years and beyond create a massive improvement in employment and earnings' 2520

April 22nd., 1970 Tape no. 581 Page 3 opportunities for the people of Newfoundland." That is the end, Sir, of the joint statement by Mr.· Harchand and myself, and I had some very brief remarks which I would like included in this ministerial statement. From my own part, Sir, I would like to say that in addition to the $41.2 million to be spent this year under the first year's agreement, there are other sums of money resulting directly and indirectly from the DREE

schedule of projects, which increases substantially the total amount to be spent this year. For example: the new resettlement agreement to be administered by DREE, as far as the Government of Canada is concerned is expected to amount to $2.5 million in Federal grants each year. Also directly as a result of the DREE grants and loans for the building of trade schools and the preparation of land assembly projects, there will be a further $2.2 million contribution by Canada Manpower and by CMHC of which . only a very small portion is by way of recoverable investment rather than by out-right grants.

In other words, the greater part of that $2,2 additional million is by out-right grant. This brings the total, Sir, to over $45 million. In addition there is under the DREE agreement a provision for a fifteen per cent leeway in the event that the projects or the cost of the projects to be built are in excess of the amounts estimated. This provision could and may mean an additional $6.2 million for this first year's

schedule of projects. This figure and the athers mentioned when added to the·amount of $41.2 million directly provided for in the DREE mean that the total DREE expenditures in this Province, during the first year should reach an amount of substantially more than $50 million. Moreover Sir, my officials and I, in the Department of Community and Social Development are still negotiating a rural development agreement with DREE which when concluded is likely to result in a further million dollars of expenditure directly on various rural development programs.

I would like to go on to say, Sir, that it is wo.rthy of note that although the Province of New Brunswick has a greater population than the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, I have been informed that the 2521

April 22nd., 1970 Tape no. 581 Page 4 New Brunswick Agreement which is also being announced today has a total of approximately of $32 million as against more than $41 million inclucied directly in the Newfoundiand AgLt:.:~nt. ' ·- The fact tha~ the Newfoundland Agreement provides for about $10 ~llion more than the New Brunswick Agreement together with the fact that the Nevfoundland Agreement was one of the first two agreements to be signed under this new DREE program, is very much, Sir, and I say this unashamedly, very much to the credit of the Newfoundland Government add to its officials.

During the next few days the officials of my department and I will be working on a detailed breakdown of the projects under the DREE agzeement for presentation to this hon. House. I would be in a position to make such a presentation early next week and also, Sir, I hope very shortly to be able to table the agreement in its entirety with its

schedule of projects in the House of Assembly, ·once sufficient copies have bean made for each member of this House and for the press. I have, Sir, copies of this statement for each member of the Rouse and for the press.

April 22nd. 1970 Tape 582 PK - 1 HR. MURPHY: Will the bon. minister permit one short question? I would like to ask the bon. minister would any of this money would involve perhaps the $16 million by Come-by-Chance or any other monies for the Come-by-Chance Development 1 ~~2W~: (W.N~_ No, Mr. Speaker.no monies to be ~rovided for the Come­ by-Chance Development is included in any of the sums which I mentioned here today. MR. HURPHY: Thank you. MR. JOHN CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker we welco~e this announcement, any funds that are invested in Newfoundland are a help to this Province.

We waited a long time, and this is not a great injection, but it is a start. And we look forward to having more details from the minister when he is ready with them, and when we get all the details, and we hope that he will proceed as early as possible with this new four year plan. MR. BURGESS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could make a few comments on this statement? MR. SPEAKER: No, I regret it, the only persons to make a:_comment, and these comments should be by way of explanation of a question, not comments. The only persons are the Leader of the Opposition, and the Chief of any other group within the House.

So we have to confine it, and it should be confined strickly as a matter of a question with sufficient remarks made to make the question intelligentible. May we continue. HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask Mr. Shaheen, Ur. Shaheen is absent, well Hr. White, they probably had time for consultation, is there any objection of informing the House what the true cast of raising the loans of England is, in additon to the five and one-half percent? t~at other commissions or charges there might be? MR. WlilTE: Mr.

Speaker, the agreement that was reached between Klien~o;qrt Benson and the Building Company was between those two people, we were not a party to that agreement, neither is Newfoundland Refining Company. ~:ell Newfoundland Refinin~ Company was not a party to that agreement, therefore this information must be obtained from the parties to the ~reement. I can make this statement that the price that we have given for this plant includes

April 22nd. 1970 Tape 582 PK - 2 MR. WHITE: all costs except of course, interest on the loan which Hr. Brokaw pointed out was at the rate of five and a-half percent. 'HR. CROSJHE: Is there a representative from the Bank here that we can ask, if he would volunteer this information? -MR. WHITE: No there is no representative from the Bank here at this time. HR. CROSniE: Hr. t-lhite, yesterday you told, that the oil refinery would use, I think, 400,000 odd gallons of water a day. You said between 400,000 or 500,000, which you were r,oing to provide yourself, with your own water system.

Today I received a Newfoundland Government Bulletin, which some people in the House here feel is a very accurate source of information. And that stated in an

article on the Oil Refinery, that the amount of water to be used per day, was 21 million gallons per day. Do you have any comment on that, is that a wildly inaccurate fi~ure, in view of what you said yesterday? HR. WHITE: I think that it is, well as you describe it, the fi~ure is not the accurate figure. I think the number of 21 million ~allons per day was the projected requir~ent for both the paper mill and the refinery, and the conmunity development in the area. This was as a result of a study that was made for the paper mill.

As I explained yesterday, the paper mill willl•use a very large quanity of water, and will require a certain amount of work to bring the water from opposite the area. However, the refinery itself_ will only use about a-half a million U.S. rallons of water per day. MR.

CROSBIE: Sir could you tell us whether Come-by-Chance is the area where you are establishing this oil refinery, did you or your group ever make any examination of Bay d' Espoir or !·!ortier Bay as the site for this operation, as to whether they ~.tould be more suitable than Cofl\e-by-Chance, or· what were the advantages of one compared to the other any such study as that? MR. WHITE: Yes, we did.

We examined areas from Quebec City rip,ht down all alon~ the North Atlantic Coast and along the Eastern Coast of the t:nited States. tole ~.tere very serious about our location near Quebec City. l·le ruled against that particular one becuase of the · limitation on the size of vessels that can navigate the St. La-wrence up to Quebec City. Also ~o.•e looked ~t

April 22nd. 1970 Tape 582 PK- 3 particular Bay d'Espoir because of certain advantages in that location, with repect to this source ·of power and a source of water. Because there is a r,ood "Y.•ater supply. Thi~ was ruled out at that time pricipally because it was off the railroad, it was off the Trana-Canada Hir,hway, the communications at Come-by-Chance were much better and the anchorage at Come-by-Chance, the marine port facili .ties there were superior. Mortier Bay we, MR. CROSBIE: I was going to ask about fog? Is there more fog in one place, than in the other?

MR. w~ITE: Yes, there is probably a little more fog around the Come-by- Chance area than there is in the Bay d'Espoir area. However, this was studied very carefully by the marine experts and they have determined that one, the access to the Come-by-Chance Bay is very good, we have a very ~ide channel. It almost do not have to be described as a channel, it is so wide. The bay is so wide there, the depth is very good. There are no sunken reefs, there are no hazards to navigation. We only have two slight course changes after the ship clears Cape St. Mary's, to bring it in.

Another fact that has been helpful in this situation is that all of the Island, and all of .the coastline~ is fairly steep, fairly rocky, and Rives a very good radar return on the vessel so that a ship can come. in with perfect assurance, that he is in the location where he thinks he is from his navigations. Also, a ship can navigate .in these waters just for the depth sounder if that is all that is necessary.

I think in the Newfoundland Pilot which is the official, (~ewfoundlan, · and Labrador- I belive it is) makes a statement that Placentia Bay, as far north as Great Southern Harbour, can be navigated by co~erical vessels, by following the depth sounder alone at this area. MR. CROSBIE: ~lr. White, while you are on your feet, I would like to ask you, you.-said yesterday I believe, when the Oil Refinery is completed and in operatior. that there would be employed in the operation and including-operation of tugs, and so on, 450 peo~le you estimated. MR. WHITE: Four hundred and twenty-five. l'tR.

CROSBIE: Four hundred and twenty-five people, could you give us a breakdo,.-r. of how many would be employed on the oil refinery as compared to ho~ rany on

April 22nd. 1970 Tape 582 PK - 4 MR. CROSBIE: tugs. And the categories of jobs. You know, how many technical jobs there are. Could you ~ive us any breakdown on that. MR. ~niiTE: Yes, Sir, as I mentioned yesterday we estimate that the tug operation will require about forty-five people. There a~ain this will be the !!!Ore ~r lcs~ :!.

t) de:::creation of the contractor cr the.:khip?!nb ccr.~~!lY- ~-rh~ owns and operates these tugs. But this was our estimate. As far as the other ~eople employed in this, there will be a few who will be under contractors, for doing contract maintenance and that sort of thing. The balance of the people, that will be approximately, 370 will be employed in the oil refinery. Now of this group, there will probably be fifteen or twenty office employees. And approximately the same number of technical people, managerial and technical people, I would say approximately twenty-five there.

The balance of the employees will be about equally divided between the maintenance crew and the operating crew. Now the maintenance crew o;Till have of course, its maintenance foremen, some of them will probably be engineers or very experienced technicians. The balance·will be the normal complement of mill-wrir,hts, pipe fitters, welders, instrumentrmen, electricans, machine operators, boiler makers, and labours, painters, installat9rs, and that sort of thing.

These mem will be employed on an hourly basis, most of them will work days. · The operating force will be comprised of people in the category of process operator, and these people will be trained. t·!e do not expect to be able to pick up any but a handful of experienced process operators in the Island, but we will train them. There requirement will be basically a high school education, good intelligence, and a willinr,ness to learn.

Now with those requirements satisfied they will be sent to a training course, and those who show up the best will of course be given the more responsible jobs, and those that do not make it may be put back into the labour gang, or they may not be retained. But these people will then be assigned to operation of the various process units. MR. CROSBIE: You will have a total investment in the Oil Refinery

April 22Dd, 1970 Tape 583 JM - 1 MR. CROSBIE: You will have a total investment in the oil refinery when it goes on stream of about $165. million including working capital. So this will provide about 350 jobs in the actual oil refinery itself and with tugs and so on about . 425. some one Newfoundlander from every Newfoundland community. So this is a very capital intensive industry, is it not? MR. WHITE: Any industry of this type is capital intensive, yes. MR. CROSBIE: In this kind of industry there is, I presume, rapid technological change in the oil refining business.

Do you expect that you will have to make further inves~nts to keep this refinery up todate within the next say three or four years or how long? MR. WHITE: Any business that is well operated must continuously invest a certain part of their earnings in keeping their plant modern, in keeping it up todate and capable of changing with the times, yes. MR. CROSBIE: Was this provided for in the estimates and fesibilLty study on this project? Have you allowed for a certain number of millions over the years to be used to modernize and update the plant, is that allowed for? MR.

WHITE: There is sufficient funds there for this and this is always allowed for in your cash projections. The technique that you use shows the amount of cash that is available for certain purposes, these purposes being reinvestment in capital equipment, available for dividends, for debt reduction and for increasing the nee-.. vorth of .. the company. MR. CROSBIE: Being any cash flow over the period of fifteen years, it was once estimated to be $5. million after meeting all interest, depreciation and repay- ments of the indebtness.

Has there anything happened since to change that or would it be a fact that over fifteen years as much as $5. million will be generated and profits from this complex? MR. WHITE: I 'am afraid there we are verging on the economic aspects of this refinery which are really a part of our business and not available for publication at this time. MR. CROSBIE: There may be other men but I have other questions, Mr. Speaker, but there are probably other members boiling.

April 22n.d, 1970 Tape 583 JM- 2 MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, if I may - MR. SHALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: I ask the hon. Premier to please resume his seat. MR. SMALLI-IOOD: No he \oras not. I \oras first on my feet. HR. WELLS: The member for Burin has the reco~nition of the Chair. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, if Your Honour is just recognizing the member for Burin just because of anything · that is one thing, if Your Honour is recognizing the one who \oras on his feet first, I \oras first • MR. HICKMAN: 1 petition the House and ask for a motion. MR ~mLLS: I move that the hon. member for Burin be now heard.

MR SPEAKER: Order. There is a dispute now as to \orhich member \oras on his feet first. I saw the member for Burin first. Row if it is a matter of that I was looking in his direction. You cannot look in two directions at the same time. If the hon. the Premier was on his feet first, and he seems to think that he should have the right to speak and not the .member for Burin, we can have a motion, which anybody likes to make, that any certain member be now heard. HR. SMALU/'OOD: Mr. Speaker, Let the hon. gentleman be heard. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

White, I would like to get back to try and straighten out some confusion that seems to be very much in the minds of hon. members and certainly in the minds of the public as to the alleged number of jobs,and I emphasize the word alleged, that will be provided at Come By Chance this year for the period of construction. Last night Mr.

Grosse very properly, very frankly and very honestly told this House that a great deal of the work to be done on the construction and installation of the project would have to be done by highly specialized technicans, that there is also a per centa~e of the ECDG grant that this agency of the British Government is putting up that provides for British services and that means British workmen. Now I am very concerned that we not reach the situation where our Newfoundland people find themselves doing nothing more than removing the earth that has to be moved, doing labour work, operating tractors and doing the welding.

April 22nd, 1970 Tape 583 JH- 3 HR. SPF~ER: I must point out that the hon. member is presenting a reasoned argument but I feel that it is taking unn~arily long to state the question. HR. HICKMAN: The first two I take along this line, Mr. Speaker, to Mr. White.

(1) How many Newfoundlanders will be working this year, the year 1970, bearing in mind that you must call tenders for the structural work, you have no choic:e in that and they have not yet been called, how many Newfoundlanders will be working this year in the year 1970 at Come By Chance? What type of work will they be doing? Does your plant because of its sophistication require far more men on construction than say another 100,000 barrel a day plant would require if it dLd not have quite the sophistication that you say yours has?

Is that a great contributing factor or does a 100,000 barrel a day plant take x number of men period? HR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I feel that the bon. gentleman has either misunderstood what Mr. Grosse said or possibly Mr. Grosse did not understand the exact implication of the question on that matter. As far as to answer the last part of your question first because we can dispose of that in a very few words. The number of men required to erect this type of equipment will be almost in direct portion to the investment of the plant.

If the plant is a more sophisticated plant and has more units it certainly will require more pipe fitters. more aillwrights ., more welders, more riggers to put this machinery in. If the plant has three times as many pumps and compressors certainly it will take three times as many people to do it in the same length of time or it would take three times as long. We do not have the time so therefore it will take three times the number of people if you have three times the number of pieces of equipment. MR. HICKMAN: In other words, a $70. million. plant should take half - as many men as $140. million. MR.

WHITE: Roughly, yes, Sir. Exactly. If you complete both plants in the same length of time and if they are plants of roughly the same type of operation. If one is a paper mill and one is an oil refinery then the answer is different but since they are. since this is a comparison of oil refineries, yes, Sir. The portion of people required is in portion to the investment figure. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. White, then may I -

April 22, 1970, Tape 584, Page 1 -- apb rm. iliC:CI/01: May I give you figures that you can e~sily obtain from the Depnrt111cnt of Labour of the Province of Quebec. The number of people who are employed on the construction project of th~ $75 millio:l plant near Quebec city. At the pe<lk of construction t,Go, of 1~hich JllO cone from t!1c Qucuec are.a, not the from the Department of Labour sone over 500 1 they consider peal~ production 460.

So on your stater:1ent can we therefore assume that the m<lximum number of people ·..~ho will be employed Nevfoundlanders and non-:~ewfoundlanders Pill be in the vicinity of 900. ~IR. WHITr:: I do not think that that could be assumed at all. I think that you should not ask the bureau of statistics, Hr. Srokm~ l-'ho is, this is the plant that they arc building, could I allow him to have a few uords on this subject~ ~IR. !ir.OKA;.;: I am not sure 1~hether you have had access to our payroll sheets or our sub-contract personnel sheets that ...:e have in r~uebcc City.

I personally llo not kno,.,. h01.,r many people He have on the job, but I am sure c:1ey arc referring to people directly employed by Procon, not by our sub-contractor!:. I am astounded bv the number, and I 1.,rould recommend that you mi~ht go down there Sir and r.~akl.! a head count because, I am sure it is more than that. :·IR. CALLAilA.~: :·tr. Brokaw, what in your jud~et:'lent uould be the number? HR. BT!.OKA~·1: I really do not know.

I have not been to Quebec City since ti1c official ground breakin~ ceremony, and I am sorry that I have not been oecause, we are doing it from our office in London and we know lvhere \te are. >!r. Speaker, I 1o1ould like to direct sone questions to ::r. \.:hite. First; last night !·1r.

Grosse said in reply to a question that his company 1 or some engineers of his company had p,one to Come bv Chance in September last year. vle kno'"z that Procon, his com;may, is o,.,rn~:d "'holly by U.O.P., what I am wondering 1 :J>i.rk Sir, is this. lolhat is the time table, this is l,.hat 1:rr. !·!hite to tell ne, to tell the House, what is the tine table of U.O.P. and the work tl1ey did for the refinery project, the feasibility report, and the basic concepts, design concepts, t~e :,·ork that they did, and the wor~ their wholly owned subsidiary Procon did, or maybe not the 1o1ork Procon did, but the appearance of Procon at Come by Chance in ti1e mont;1 of

April 22, 1970, Tape 584, Par,e 2 -- ~pb Spetember. llow, when7did U.O.P. finish their work for the project, and when did Procon come in to the picture, and how long was there between the two, so that we may decide if there was arms length distance between the tHo co~:~panies. That is the first question, and I would like you to develop that Hr.

White, and the second CJUC:Slion is with regard to navil_!:ation and !:he safety of navi 'gation in Placentia Hay. lvhen a ship, loaded with 2 million barrels of oil row1ds Cape St. !1ary 1 s and heads up to Come by Chance she steams up this quarter million ton tanker steams up the full length of Placentia Bay, and she has to have lots of deep water, and if she is not to run ashore, if she is not to run on a rock, if she is not to beat the bottom out of her, she has to have lots of deep water with sufficient width in the channel and is it intended do you know to mark the course or the more dangerous parts of the course if there are dangerous parts with navigation bouys so that the ship under Canadian law having to have competent pilots aboard will be able to be navigated through that course, up through the bay, into Come by Chance.

In other words how safe will navigation be in Placentia Bay so tnat as to reduce greatly, if not completely illiminate, reduce greatly the danger of a great ship spilling a lot of oil into Placentia Bay. Thirdly, just three questions. Thes.e tanks, we were told here in this House by an hon. member, we were told that these tanks of which there are 1 think two built and others to be built, are the biggest in the world.

There are none other as big, it therefore is a very daring thing, very daring thing to build tanks as big, to hold six hundred odd thousand, 630 oc 650 barrels of oil (63Q,OJO or 640,000), the biggest in the 1-1orld, are they strong enough? Ought they to be filled with water to test them? Are they bolted together or welded together? How thich is the steel? Are they resting on bog? Uas the bog been removed? Is there ~oncrete fatting? Is the concrete fogting heavy enough? Is the concrete footing heavy enougl1?

To what standards were the tanks built and the tanks to be built, what standards ··•Jould the be built to, British, American or wllat have you? iiow strong are they? lioH safe are they? And how does their size compare with ti1e size of other sil"'ilar tanks used for the same thing oil storage of bunker sea oil in the wot'ld. How do they compare ~..r th other tanks? ~;ow these are the three, the

April 22, 1970, Tape 584, Page 3 -- apb connection between U.O.P., that parent company and the work they did for you. Procon, the company that is owned by u.o.r., \<hen did one go out of the picture and the other come in, and are they in this matter of Come by Chance, noli! the Come by Chance mill, arc they at arm's length? Is there any conflict of interest? ~-lould you tell us exactly ~~hat the relationship has been, be t'<leen you on the one hand, and U.O.P. on the other hand, and if you had a third hand what tV'ould be the connection bet1,reen you and Pro con? ~.fould you describe that.

The navigation problem and the question of the tanks and the comparison with other tanks, their size, their safety, their strength, and hot~ are tanks tested, and how were these tanks tested? l-IR. \,'!liTE: !-lr. Speaker, I will as is my usual custom answer this with the last question first, mainly because that is the one that is fresh on my mind right now. Since this t<as a rather long series of rtuestions. ,\s to the tanks that we have built at Come by Chance and the other tanks that will be built, the petroleum industry has a rather strict code for the building of this type of material.

This has been 111orked out over a long period of time and there has been a lot of experience and a lot of testing and a lot of work, development work gone into this thing. These particular tanks that we have erected at Come by Chance are modern tanks. iiow they are large tanks. TI1e capacity of the tanks to be precise is 605,000 barrels of oil. The tanks are 262 feet in diameter, and 64 f'eet tall. :low that is a fairly large tan~, a fairly large building could be {)Ut inside that tank. However, we have used the most r.1odern design techniques.

The tanks ~o1ere built and engineered by a very reputable company the "Graver" who are one of the leading tank designers and tank erecters in the world. MR. SHALLt-'OOD: tolhat is their name? MR. mUTE: Graver ~om.. s: tALu.:oo o : How do you spell that? !-lR. HlliTE: G r a v e r :·!R. S~tALL\>OOD: From what country? ~tR. IVHITE: TI1ese t.:mks were built by the Belgian affiliate of Granger, ~1:1ich is kno~.r as "Granges Graver" or Granges International. . 2532

April 22, 1970, Tape 584, Page 4 -- apb AN 110;~. : · U~rii.:ER: Granges or Graver? !-1R. i-ll! I Tl~: Graver, G r a v c r: It is a very old and well ' known name in tl1e construction of petroleum tankage. 25~3

MR.WRlTE: are made out of a new alloys a new hightensile strength steel which bas been completely checked by mddern inspection techniques. So that each 8ethods to assure that it meets all the requirements after it has been rolled into the round shape. Now just as an example of the strength of these tanks the bottom ring, the bottom eight feet of the tank which is the first sheet as you go up is approximately an inch and a half thick.

Bow soae battleships do not have very mach more steel than that the steel tapers up and becomes thinner as it gets toward the top because the load the stresses on the tank is not quite so great. Now as to the foundations for the tanks of course this is quite a large load when we fill those tanks with oil there is a column of oil sixty-four feet tall. · ~ow a column of oil sixty-four feet tall will put on each square inch of soil a pressure of so.ethtng in the oeighbourhood of fffty or sixty pounds on each square inch. Now that is not an enormously high pressure.

Just to give you a little comparison your automobile tire will be inflated to about thirty pounds per square inch so this would probably may be twice the pressure.of the auto- mobile tire. The foundation though baa to bear an enormous load because there a~e an awful lot of square inches in a circle 262 feet in diameter. So the first thing that we did of course when we went out to the site we selected areas where we thought the tanks should be located and we had a very reputable Newfoundland COMpany come in and make soil tests, do borings and interpret this.

They were soils engineers who gave us a reading Oil all the bearing stren&th of the soil under the bog and how much bog we had and the whole thing. Then after this data was interpreted our engineers then designed the foundation and the pad in accordance with the . specifications of the builders. Then another Newfoundland company here asain, to come back to your point about the calling for tenders this was open· to public bidding and was, the award was granted to a Newfoundland company who went in and actually Bid the grading and prepared these 2534 .

foundations. Now as a matter of fact one of our tanks is sitting on rockJwe did have to move a little rock to get it out so that we have a very good foundation. The other tank, the rock is not very far under the surface so that ' it also has a very good foundati~"· Th~ gcil !ts~~f ~~ · a. bearing strength much in access of that needed for actually carrying this load.

Now to further well there are about six in this weight of oil you will find about seven and a half barrels will weigh a ton and so you can multiply out these seven and a half times six hundred thousand and get the total weight in tons of the oil spread out over that circle. MR.. HICKMAN : That is the only way, the three questions asked and if we ; leave this one before Mr. white goes on to the other two we will never get back to it. This works to about ninety thousand tons of crude oil which will be contained in that tank.

This I would suggest to you makes the footings and the installation of the footings of vital importance because regardless of what sheet metal you have in there if your footings are not good and well designed and well constructed the rest of it does not count MR.WHITE: Not exactly because in the design of an oil tank it is a little different than the design of the building. An oil tank is built on a pad it really does not have a footing. The weight is distributed, the bottom of the tank lays flat on the ground and the weight in distributed over the whole area.

The design of this pad is such, the engineering of this pad is such that the weight is borne equally by all of the ground under the tank rather than in a building, say for instance, in this building you will have piles that go down and you will have a footing poured under each of these which the building rests on so that the building is not allowed to move as the land under the building moves and heaves from freezing, th~ng and that sort of thing the footings have to go down that deep.

A tank is allowed to float on a pad of sand and gravel and we have found through the years this is a much more satisfactory way of doing it rather than pouring a footing to build the tank up on. MR.Rio:MAN: May be by calling it footing I am wrong, but pad is just as good a word.

MR.mTITE: The basic design for the pad is very carefully spelled out in the specifications of the British standards. I believe British standards institute • British Standards Institute. TI1es~ tanks are build to British Standards Instttute s'!)ecifications. They <lpP.o=ify f'1 d~t~il the . ty~H! -,f foundation, type of pad that shall be put under each tank. Now this very ~hat in accordance with the bearing strength of the soil that you have under the tank.

Of course if you go into a marshy area where you do not have much bearing strength then you do have to put a footing in you have to put what you call piling under there just like you put piling out into the water to build a dock on, you put the tank on piling. MR. HICK."!AN: Mr. Speaker, again on this point. Did you have your own engineers there supervising this ~ork, authorizing progress payments? MR.WRtTE: Mr. In~ster was on the site at all times. Mr. Inkster is a, he is out at the site right now with the other gentleman that Mr.

Inkste~ the graduate engineer, civil engineer with experience in this field • However the actual design work was not done by Mr. Inkster the design work for these pads was done by Graver who are the builders of the tahk and who furnished us with the design. MR.HECKMAN: Did you not bring in from the Middle East an oil expert and an oil engineer who had a lot of experience in this work to protect your interest and supervise that work? MR.WHITE: An oil expert from the Middle East that5General Lessing - MR.HICKMAN: It was an unusual name it is Din;le. MR.WRITE: Mr. Dinkle was one of our employees for a while, yes.

MR.HtCDfAN: ~.Jas one of your experts that you brought in .as I recall? MR.WRITE: He was construction man he and Mr. Inkster were both on the job Mr. Inbter was the engineer·. Mr. Dinkle was the construction foreman at that time. MR.HIC!l~~ Was Mr. Dinkle not given the responsibility of approving and authorizing progress payments. MR.WRITE: I believe progress payments were authorized by him. 25!Hi

MR.HI~N: Did he actually authorize any? GENERAL LESSING: Hay I answer that question? Mr. Dinl~le was the man on site, he was a construction suP,erintendent. As a matter of routine when the worR was done he would certify that so many yards of contrete had been poured and that the contractor was authorized ~~~tain p~y~e~t=. Those certifications went to me and then they went to the Provincial Building Company as further payments. MR.HI~~: If Mr. Dinkle came to the conclusion that the work had not been done properly then he would/~ghify progress payments. GEN.L!SIING: Of course not, we had an engineer.

MR.HICKMAN: Did he ever refuse to do that, did he ever refuse to certify any progress payments? MR.WHITE: I do not think that that is a proper question really for us to answer at this time. lole had a qualified engineer on the job. We had another qualified engineer doing the supervision. we had the supervisor there that wanted to better himself by going other places. He had a job offer he had other problems and I do not think we should go into our personnel and that sort of thing. MR.Hl~~: I do not want to go into his personal life, Mr. White what I am suggesting to you is this. That when Mr.

Dinkle arrived on the seene there was great announcements and great pronouncements that this was the man who was going to assume the responsibility for the proper erection of the facilities going into Come by Chance. And then he suddenly disappeared. MR.WHITE: 1 do not think , I do not think these personal matters should be aired in public. If you would like to come around personally I would happy to discuss this with you in private.

MR.HtCKMAN: If he has personal problems, if he does not like the climate or if he has to go home, fine, but when a man is charged with the responsibility of approving progress payments then I want to know whether or not he approved these progress payments or whether he refused to do it. And that is very relevant, that is not personal. MR.WHITE: Every progress payment 2537

April 22nd. 1970 Tape 586 PK - 1 tfR.__!!!!!:!'!~: every progress payment that was made was approved by the proper people, the foundations were iuspect<.,d. If you have any reservation whatsoever, I can assure you that the eur,inecrs from Granges Graver came over inspected all of the foundations carefully before they put a piece of steel on the foundation, they checked the ,whole thing out. Our own engineers were on the site, and did exactly the same thing.

The foundations for these tanks were properly installed and in fact, I came,out and looked at them personally, I asked Grange~,Gray~r's Erection Superintendent what he thought of the work that had been done, because we were trying to find whether the contractors who were here, were doing a r.ood job for us. \-le always like to see what kind of a job the contractor has done. He told re, the contractor had done a very fine job. And that he wished to compliment the contractor on doing such a good job upon this foundation. MR. SMALLHOOD: Hr. White, the contractor was this a local firm? MR. \.111ITE: Yes, Sir. MR.

SMALLWOOD: The local firm did what? What was it that the local firm did? MR. \.~ITE: They constructed the foundations for the tanks. MR. s;~LHOOD: They built the foundations, but did they also:erect tanks on the foundations? HR. \.THITE: No, sir. That was done by Granges Graver. }fR. SiiALLWOOD: to/ell was_ it one company that excavated and got the site ready, and then another company that poured the concrete and built the pad? Or was it all one company? MR. l\THITE: Uo, Sir, it was two companies. MR. SHALLWOOD: Two companies, were they both Newfoundland firms? HR. WHITE: Yes, Sir. HR. SHALLI.JOOD: The same firm?

And it was done on tender under the Law? NR. WHITE: Yes, Sir. HR. SHALLVlOOD: Asked for tenders, at least two, and two were called for? ~\,ll.ITE: Yes, Sir, that is correct. So the foundations Here installed, were properly put in, and if it is of any comfort, the invoices ~ ... ere apnroved and paid by the responsible people. ;~ow, ~m. c:UITE: Are you ~oing to fill it up with 90,000 tons of water? 25:18

APril 22nd. 1970 Tape 586 PK - 2 GENERAL LESSDlG: Just for a moment, I might say a third very reputable Newfoundland Firm approved the concrete in those foundations. I would not have passed any invoices .for payment, if an independent . inspection fi~ had not given their own reputable approval. •m. WHITE: 1-lr. Hickman. there are a number of ~.·ays of testin~ the tanks, and we have used all of the modern techniques. I will ~o into that a little bit to reassure you and the other p.eople as to the extent that we -went in this testin~.

In the first place as I ~ntioned, the steel itself is inspected and tested before it leaves the plant. This is a requirement of the I British standards for these larger tanks. After the steel gets here it is given a physical inspection on the site and if there is any damage, there has been any damage _in transit a ~udgment is made by the engineers as to whether it can be repaired or not. Fortunately our steel arrived without any appreciable damage in transit. After the tank is erected, these are large sheets, and they are welded together.

Now a weld of that thickness, up to an inch and a-half thick, is a fairly complicated thing. It has to be done carefully. ~IR. S~1ALLWOOD: Where these welders, Newfoundlanders? MR. WHITE: Yes, Sir. Actually there were two types of welding on the tanks; the Granges' people brought in maehines to do the long welds alonp the A~rizontal -seam. All of the vertical seams~ and a portion of the horizontal seam where it intersects that, were all done by hand. These were all done by Newfoundland welders, and I might add, there again.

Well, I say a part of these welders were Newfoundlanders, , .ad a part of them were welders that nad been bought in by the tank erector, because they were machine operators and welders. They had to have these fellows in to operate the machines, and they did some of the welding. And I will say that at that time all of the welding was inspected by a outside inspection firm, a Newfoundland firm, who was qualified to do welding inspection, and they watched the welds and saw that they were properly done.

They also x-rayed each joint in the welds, they take a big x-ray machine, and_actually take a picture ri~ht through the steel, and experts on interp~~ation of these x-rays, looked them over and 25:19

April 22nd. 1970 Tape 586 PK - 3 MR. w~ITE: examined them for any indication of flaws or any questionable areas where there might be slag inclusion or other types of defects in the weld. MR. SMALLWOOD: Do you mean to say that all the welds, all the joints of these plates that went to make up these great tanks, they are all welded edge to edge, that all these were photographed, were x-rayed? MR. WHITE: Yes, Sir. MR. SMALLWOOD: What did you do with the x-ray pictures, when you got .them? MR. l-."HITE : Well, actually there were two different groups that interpreted these x-rays. nte rroup that was hired by the tank erect~r, to take the x-rays, and give them an

interpretation. They took the x-rays, they interpreted the x-rays, and gave both the builder and us their report. tole then took these same x-ray films to a second independent inspection firn, and handed them, the x-rays, and asked them to give us an

interpretation independent of the other people, to give us an

interpretation of these x-rays. Both of these

interpretations were checked, and all of the welding was found to be satisfactory. Now the x-rays still are in the company files and if anyone else wants to have another expert come and look at them, they are perfectly welcome. Now as far as testing the tank;itself, apart of the procedure at any time for one of these vessels is to test the tank with water.

Now this is a carefully felt out procedure in which you put a certain amount of water in each day, into the tank, you sit up a transit and you watch the edge to see if there is any settlement in the tank, and you will see if the foundation is going to move or anything happens. After the tank has been filled with water it is allowed to sit for-a certain period of time, and then the water is dropped out of· the tank, the tank is opened and the bottom cleaned again, because normally a certain amount of rustscale and that sort of thing accumulates.

So you clean out the bottom of the tank". so if it is clean, button it up, and your tank is then ready for oil service. .25JO

April 22nd. 1970 TApe 586 PK - 4 MR. WlllTE: Now these tanks that are here will be tested before they are put in oil service. They are normally tested immediately 5efore being put in service, because something can always happen, you do not test something to day, and leave it sit out in the weather for months, and months before you actually use it. :We will put the hydrostatic test on the tank just before it is put in service. MR. S~~WOOD: Is water as heavy as the oil? MR. 'lv'HITE: Water is heavier than oil, Sir. MR. HICKMAN: Will you have 90,000 tons of water in that tank? MR.

WHITE: We will have in access of 90,000 tons of water, yes. Because water when you consider it by the barrel, water 1 think will run approximately six barrels per ton, instead of seven and a-half. So we do have this extra urgin of safety after everything else is done in the tank. MR. HICKMAN: I think this is general knowledge, this is a standard method of testing tanks, and I think it is a fair statement to say that tanks 1, on more occasions than one would like to think of, have been known to collapse, when that sort of test has been imposed on. MR. WHITE: No, I can think of one occasion where this has happened.

Of course as I have said before, you do not handle a liquid anywhere, anytime, without spilling some, sometimes. Now this happened in England, not too long after the war and there were some tanks that were being tested. They were being made out of a new type of steel which had some rather peculiar coal properties. The tanks were being tested with very cold salt water. which again, except were water is very short, you should not use salt wate~ to test the tanks. It is a very poor medium to test, but the tank did fail on a water test. MR. HICKMAN: Thank you, Mr. White. 25~·1

.-.. -- ~ -· .. - •-r- -~· - MR.. HICKMAN: You may recall, when I mentioned it. Portland-Maine, small tanks the size that you get on the Southside Hills, nothing to carry the weigh of this, if you recall were being tested and filled with water and, as you know, you can probably get almost to the top be~ore the thing goes and sudden.lf the two tanks rolled up like toilet paper. There were houses washed out into the harbour. Do you recall that? It was one of the large oil companies. One of the standards. 1 have forgotten which one. MR..

WHITE: I do not have first hand knowledge of that particular incident, but certainly this sort of thing has been known to happen, but when you think of all the tanks in the world that have been built, there is not that much danger and certainly there is less ha~ard in standing on top of one of those tanks, while it is being filled with water than there is driving your car for an hour. MR. HICKMAN: We were told it vas the largest tank inthe world, or it was when it was built. MR. WHITE: What our press announcement said was that it was the largest tanks on the North American Continent. MR.

HICKM«N: There are larger in the world, are there not? MR.. WHITE: Yes there are . some larger and there are quite a number of tanks of this size that are built. These tanks hold 605,000 barrels • . The L ,j.q o Oil and i.ransport 011 the Island of Aruba in the Netherlands ,Antilles has a taDk of 1 million barrels capacity. l1lere are a nUIIIPer of tanks of the 600,000,700,000 and 800,000 barrels capacity in existence. Out in the Persian Gulf, there. are a great number of tanks of the 500 , 000; 600,000 and 700,000 barrel capacity ra11ge. MR.

HICKMAN: I was readiDg about aD export compa11y of 1 million barrels, by a Japanese company, I remember reading. Are you familar with that? MR. WHITE: These tanks .are feasible up to 1 million•barrels, yes. MR. HICKMAN: Do you agree· with me that the heavier the weigh the larger the tank, the more caution has 'o be used, because if one ever erupted, there would be no second chance would there? MR.. WHITE: Well if a tank. breaks, there is no second chance. It has broken

April 22nd., 1970 'rape no. 587 Page 2 but there is no reason why just because it is larger, there is any greater risk. There is less risk, because we~are being more careful with the large tanks. We are putting them in location, for even if they do break, auy thing does happen, it will not do the damage. Now to go ahead with this thing, I thi~, you have a certain · concern about may be our dropping of 600,000 barrels of oil in the Bay.

Well the way this tank farm is laid out, the tanks are on a hill and below those tanks and in the low valley before they get into the Bay. we B.ave designed a catch basin, which we will use. We will clean this out. This basin will be dammed off with an earthen dam and be. equipped with drains and that sort of thing so that it can be cleaned out and it will have a capacity to hold about one and two-thirds volume of the tank. It will hold - these tanks hold about 600,000 barrels, this basin will hold at least 1 million barrels of storage space.

I just got a note here that in Bantry Bay, you have all heard, I think, of Bantry Bay, the big tanker terminal that Gulf has built, this is in Ireland, on the Island of Bantry , and it is near Cork. That is right, it is .Woody Island in Bantry Bay. I should remember, I was there. Granges Graver built tanks of this size. Nov let us see, there were twelve tanks of this size built. They are now in operation, now being used by Gulf. It is the same company and in fact a number of the people who work on the Bantry Bay tankage moved:...~ght over here and worked on these tanks. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

White, I wonder, before you go on to the other two questions that I asked you, if you would give way for a moment to Mr. Brown who is another engineer who has had to do presumably with tanks and this gentleman here second from him, the good looking man there, who also has had to do with refineries and tanks, two different outfits, one from England, one from California. Mr. Brown what do you say about these tanks out here, 605, 000 barrels each. Are we crazy to have that sort of thing or what is the fact? . 25·!3

APril 22nd., 1970 Tape no. 587 Page 3 MR. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I thinlt this is entirely practical, sir. Tanks are designed properly. They are built properly. They are tested properly, with the added safe sruard of course, of eatch ~~i~ !=r ~'l:t a!ODCo: !.mpossi~le · situation. It is a perfectly reasonable thing. HI. BRQIC.All· Mr. Speaker, we have been involved in approximately,~! guess .... . . sixteen or seventeen grsss roots refineries, some in this size range, and we are using big tankers.

Everybody is coming to the conclusion, includi:1g all the major oil companies that you use big tanks to bold your crude oil. It is more economical and as long as you build under the codes, not only the British standards but the American Petroleum Institute require, they are safe. MR. BURGESS : While we are on the possibility of pollution, this is essentially what the problem is.

Yesterday, I beleve, you made some remarks about the construction of very tall stacks in order to - were you talking about eliminating pollution or minimizing it and to what degree would the erection of small stacks minimize air pollution? MI.. WRITE: Mr. Speaker, we always have to think of minimizing air pollution. You can never get around a certain amount of air pollution. I have just seen a little

article in, I believe, it was Chemical Engineering News that one of the more serious . atmospheric · .pollutions occur over a pine forest. If no one is there, there is still quite a bit of atmospheric pollution, because of the wax and things froa the pine trees; so auytime you have any living thing or any industrial plant, there is some thing that could be defined u pollution; so we always have to minimize it, to use abatement procedures ad that sort of thing.

Row when I referred to a tall stack, this is the reason for that - the reason for that is that it gets the gases. it gives you very good combustion conditions in your fire box; so that you completely burn your fuel and eliminate aay carbon monoxide or partially burned fuel from coming out and the other thing is that it raises the gases up to a fairly high level where there is usually 2544

April 22nd., 1970 Tape no. 587 Page 4 a good wind blowing so that it will dissipate this gas and spread it out into the upper reaches of the atmosphere and not let it accumulate dowD on the ground for it might cause a little bad odour or something like that. Now to get back to the tanks, the point that 1-fr. Brokaw made about the size of these tanks is very important fr0111 a pollution standpoint I as well.

A small tank is - everytime you change operations, when you switch things, you have men changing valves and ~hat sort of thing, now the bigger your tank the fewer operations you have to go through, when you are unloading a tanker. A small tank, a 100,000 barrel tank, if you use that for unloading a tanker, you would have to have a multiple, you would have to have multiple tanks open, ready at any time to receive the crude, because the tanker itself will discharge at a rate of 100,000 barrels an hour. Now you certainly do not want to fill up a tank that is forty, fifty or sixty feet high in one hour.

This tank should be filled over a period of time. Mll. SMALLWOOD: Does this mean that a 2 million barrel tanker coming into Come-by-chance will take twenty-hours to off-load, to pump-off the 2 million barrels ? Mll. WRITE: Yes sir. Mll. SMALLWOOD: Twenty hours? MI.. WDITE: Yes, sir. We try to hold the turn around time on a ship to less than tvo days, less than two days in port. To do that ve must have a discharge time of not to exceed twenty-four hours and this is what establishes the discharge rate, is how large the ship is. 25;.15

Apdl 22, 1970 Tape #588 Page 1 HR. HICJCHAN: There seems to be three areas of possible pollution vith any refinery, yours or anyone elses. One is that the tank might it collapse and pour a large quantity of oil any size tank, be this tank or the tank you store your refined product in. Another is the air pollution, ad the third vbich is a very, very significant one insofar as Newfoundland is concerned is the possible pollution of the water. Now the Government of Canada as you knov is bringing some pretty restricted requirements insofar as anti-pollution is concerned.

Many of the states of the Union, or some of the states of the Union are insisting that oil ref!neries set ap a fund to pay . for all costs arising out of pollution and that there be unlimited liability. In your design, not only of your tank, but your wharf and your whole process.

Are you so designing it nov in the knowledge that before even construction starts you may have to meet far more stringent requirements then vere enforced one year ago, when you vere doing this and do you agree vith the proposition that there should be unlimited liability for any other refinery, and vould your company be prepared to put the neeessary funds out its earnings as other oil companies are now doing, to pay this Province for any damage arising out of pollution or any fishermen in Placentia Bay who suffer extensively. MR.

WRITE: I think that as far as the daaages are concerned, it ought to be made clear that the oil companies neither any of the major oil co~anies, or anyone else, vould pay for this sort of ~ing out of their profits. Because an oil eo~~pany or any other business has to run as a business. It baa to get a certain return on the capital, or the investors will not invest in it, so that if ve have to buy the insurance, if we have to accept uniiaited liability there vill be a cost. That cost vill be passed along to the ultimate consumer.

You might just as vell expect that, because in anything in life, if you vant to get something you have to pay for it. Now this .ay be a 1110re just way of doing it. This may be a more fair way of doing ie then the vay it is being done now, where when there is a disaster, certain people in a certain area get hit ~arder. I do not want to go into that type of a discussion, and I do not think it is proper for us to do it at that

J~ .\llril 22 , 19 70 Tape #588 Page 2 time, but I do say that if there is this r~quirement for insurance that they were brought out by the International Agreements or by national regulation, certainly we will have to abide by it, and we will, as far as the· design and air and other type of pollution are concerned. our plant is being designed to minimize the amount of pollutions that are formed to control the operations and control the processes so that they are not in there.

We certainly will abide by all of the laws and regulations, and we have in Act 86 of the Legislator and in the agreement which we made which is appended to that Act. We have agreed. This is an obli~ation of the company to comply will all of the laws, with all of the regulations issued by competent. authorities in that field, whether they be federal or provincial. · MR. HICKMAN: You must have seen by now as a prudent builder, the proposed are regulations that coming into force by the Government of Canada this year. There is already as can be expected a screaming from industry that is going to cost a lot of money.

What I want to know from you is, I mean there is no question you have to c~ly ~th it, there ts no doubt about this. But is it going to affect the economics of your construction~ if for instance the added requirements cost another $5 million. Do we whack that on top $155 million that we are talkin~ about now. And are you in a position to tell us that this is going to cost you more money? MR. WHITE: No, this is not going to cost us any more money. We had anticipated that the affluent from our plant will be certainly well belciw the standards that have been established at this point.

When we desiRfted this plant, we looked into the fnture, although we saw that there was quite an activity here for a little agitation for stricter laws, for stricter regulations of this thing, so that in our basic design we took care of that. We had anticipated it, so that we would not have to go back and make a large invest- ment in future years. Therefore, we have it made now. We will start out with a good clean operating plant and we ha~e taken all of the precautions we think that we can to prevent any pollution, and we will operate the 25·17

JV April 22, 1970 Tape #588 Page 3 plane that way. MR. ROWE (W.N.}: Mr. Speaker, to give Hr. White a break befot'e he answers the other two questions which the Premier has put to him, I would like to direct a question eo - MR. SPEAKER: The gentleman is answering questions that the Premier and others have been asking supplementary questions - Mr. White should carry on with the reply to the Pt"emier's question. MR. CALLAHAN: Could I direct a question to Mr. White Mr. Speaket'? Mr.

White, did your company have some communication or proposal in fact from Memorial Univet'sity on the question of pollution in Placentia Bay? And some suggestion that they be I assume commissioned by your company to undertake a survey? MR. WHITE: Yes we have. We have gone in - we have had some discussions and proposals from the Memorial University people that they do this sort of thing.

We have reviewed this very carefully and we will certainly co-operate with them, however, at this particular minute we do not have the funds to do any funding on this sore of thing,· however, might we ask that General Lessing give us a short

summary of his discussions with Memorial University, and what the plans are as soon as the funds are available to do this, we want to carry on our discussions with these people. MR. CALLAHAN: Before General Lessing does say this Mr. White. This occurred some time ago I take it? MR. WHITE: Yes. MI.. CALLAHAN: Can I assume from what you have now said, that there is no unwillingness to haYe this kind of thing done. Is it a case that the time was bad? Or as you said funds were not available because the project was not completed? What was the reason at the time? MR. WHITE: There were two reasons.

One is the plans for the plant were not completely developed at that time. And we did not have drawings and all of that that we could submit. And the second and probably the most important thing at that point was, we did not have funds to ccmnit to that

jw April 22, 1970 Tape #588 Page 4 type of study until after we get our financing completed. As we have told you the money that we have spent on the sales effort, the development of this thing, the engineering and all of that has been quite a burden on us, and we do not want to commit to any additional funds until we do have the financing completed. We certainly do want to co-operate with the people at Memorial University. MR. SMALLWOOD: If the University we~e to be asked to give their services in this matter, it would be the Government that would ask them not you. And we would be the clients.

They would be consulted and retained by the Newfoundland Govefftment, and you then would really have no choice would you, except to meet the representatives of the Government, that is to say the University specialists, and you know we have very great specialists at our University, they are among the best in the world. And if we retain them, you would have no choice but to collaborate very closely with them: and what the minister was asking you is would gladly co-operate, or·would you do it unwillingly? MR.

WRITE: We would do it willingly, and in fact we would welcome this type of study because it will help us in our final design and operation of the plant. We do know that we have been given a memorandum and an outline of the work that they have proposed to do, and we certainly are not in any way against this sort of thing. We would like to have it established that way because we want to h~~~ it perfectly clear to everyone, that we are not polluting the bay. We are not causing any bad effects fr0111 th e Oil Refinery. . 25·19

April 22nd, 1970 Tape 5R9 JM- 1 MR. CALLAJJAN: I would like to get back to an earlier question of a few minutes ago. The suggestion was, I think, that if you had to comply today as against a year ago with new legislation or new regulations, new strictures on oil refineries and indeed other plants this would be an added cost to you, now what is the position in the industry generally in respect to new plants?

I would think everyone would be doing the same and secondly would this same kind of thing not apply only more so to plants constructed prior to a year ago that the whole industry is in difficulty and only new plants really are in a position of advantage, would that be the casef MR. WHITE: That is precisely the case. In fact, we had anticipated that this thing would come about. Had this plant been designed ten years ago our affluent systems would have been somewhat different. We thought that was adequate at that time but some of the experience in the past has proved that it was not.

Now the old plants are the ones that are having trouble. They are the ones that are going to have to rebuild their whole system, they are going to have to study their whole processing scheme to try to minimize this. With this in mind our processing scheme was designed anticipating these types of regulations that were going to be brought in and our people and the engineers, the deaigaers stay abreast of this thing all the time. We do not design the plant to meet the quality of water that would be required next year or the year the plant goes on stream.

We try to anticipate what the quality require­ menta will be ten years from now and meet those requirements in the design of of the plant because it certainly is a lot less costly to do it while you are designing the plant than it is after the plant has been built. MR. CALLAHAN: So it is fair to say then that from the fesibility and economic fesibility point of view, from· a financing point of view that you were in a more favoured position than the great bulk of the oil industry today rather than at a disadvantage! · MR. WRITE: . Very definietely. We have a distinct advantage over them.

If we could ask General Lessing to - MR. FRECKER: Mr. Speaker. Mr. White began an explanation in which I was

April 22nd, 1970 MR. FRECKER: Tape 589 .1H - 2 very genuinely interested and he got moved to several tangents. Mr. White, you began to explain what your company was doing to take care of this possibility of a breakdown and an overflow and to see that the bay was protected from pollution·. I wonder if you could come back to that point. HR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, yes the tanks are being built along the side of a hill and we will have small diversion dykes and a large ditch on the low aide of these tanks which would be adequate to take any oil spill. MR.

SMALLWOOD: If a tank collapsed or if it leaked and 600,000 barrels ran out of it, you save all that from going in the bay? MR. WHITE: Yes, Sir, our basin will hold approximately 1,000,000 barrels or more so that any one tank could be spilled into it and still have a very large margin of safety. Because on the average a tank is only about half full in the refinery at any time so we would have an even greater margin but if the tank were completely full it would still hold one tank and almost the contents of another one at the same time. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

White, the only Government that I know of in Canada that has any personell and facilities to check on pollution right now, we have nothing here as yet, or no-one. Have you submitted to the Government of Canada your company and your design engineers the plans of your plant showing what anti­ pollution procedures you are going to adopt both in so far as the land and the sea and the air, the Federal Government research jurisdiction over air pollution, if you have done it when did you submit it, to what department and have you received the approbation, the approval of the Government of Canada? Mi.

WHITE: We, of course, will comply strictly with all the rules and resqlations. As far as having submitted anything the complete engineering design of this plant is not done. We do not have detailed drawings of every little vessel in the plant. We have hired very competent engineers who have designed the ba8ic plant and called out the basic specifications that are required. As Procon gets on the job they will make up the detailed drawings, they will do the detailed work that-is required of them by the specifications that have been written by UOP and Ralph M. Parsons Company. Then as these 25:S1

April 22nd, 1970 MR. WHITE: Tape 589 JM- 3 prints are finished they will be submitted as required to the Provincial and the Federal authorities for review. Of eourse we always have to do this before a plant is permitted to go on stream. We would do it anyway and we have been in touch with these people and co-operating with them in what they require however, we do not have the detailed plans available to hand them today. This is one reason we want to get our financing completed, get the engineering completed and get on with the job. HR. CALLAHAN: Surely, Mr.

White, and I cannot accept the comment made earlier by the member from Burin that we have no expertise in this field. We have and we are getting more but surely your engineers will not complete their plans without regard to existing legislation or regulations. Surely they will be guided as any planer or any architect is guided by electrical codes or building codes or whatever they may happen to be. Surely these things will be built in and that that check will necessarily perhaps be only or only have to be a sort of a cursory confirmation, is that not the game?

Surely your engineers are not going to proceed as if Federal regulations and laws did not exist or any other kind of laws or regulations and find when they have their plans all done they have to do them again? MR. WHITE: No, absolutely. MR. EARLE: May 1 just ask your opinion on this with respect, Mr. Speaker. The bon. members of Government particularly Cabinet have had a full opportunity to question these gentlemen and if they have not questioned them on all the points they have not done their homework properly. They are not servicing the people of Newfoundland. Now 1 contend, Mr.

Speaker that the members on this side of the House have not had that opportunity and should be given preference in questions, because these gentlemen already should know the answers to the questions which they are asked. MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): We are in the bon. House of Assembly nov and it has been said a thousand times that all members are equal. What they know privately is their awn business but what they knew publicaly is what we are concerned with here. Each member has his equal rights and the duty of 25~2

A~trU 22nd, 1970 HR. SPEAKER (NOEL) : Tape 589 JM 4 the Chair is to see that each member is given a fair share and pick out alternate speakers and so on. With regard to what we are doing now I think that to get back to fairness the hon. the Premier asked three questions the last one was the discussion concerning' tanks. The Chair permitted a certain deviation of pollution in relation to the tanks but I think that the hon. the Premier is entitled to an answer to the other two questions that he posed and Mr. White should proceed with them. MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, could Mr.

White complete the answer to the last question? MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): I think the pollution theme is a little bit adrift and we should get back to the three questions asked by the Premier. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, the second question that was asked by the Premier was the navigation of Placentia Bay. I believe that earlier I have gone into this subject at some length. As far as the buoys, I do not believe we specifical~y mentioned them.

I believe that there were two locations, Captain Wallace I think you could confirm,were there two locations that we have requested that the hydro-graphic office, three, three locations that Captain Wallace and the dock and other navigation people he has consulted with have recommended that buoys be installed before we start navigation.

I also think that there are certain range lights and target boards and that sort of think, four range lights, some target boards and that sort of thin~ which will be installed by the Canadian Hydro-graphic Office before the ships try to navigate into this bay, these very large vessels. And another point - Our dock will be designed to take a ship of 350,000 dead weight tons. Now 350,000 is a little larger than any ship afloat right now. There is one under construction a little larger than that and there is some - MR. SMALLWOOD: Under construction where? MR. WHITE: This ship is under construction in Japan.

There is some talk, there is a fesibility study being conducted right now on a 500,000 ton tanker however this is in the future. Now the depth of water at the dock is sufficient to take the 500,000 ton tanker. The mass of the dock, the feadering system and so on has been designed to take the impact load only of 25:i3

April 22nd, 1970 MR. WRITE: Tape 589 JM- 5 the 350,000 dead weight ton vessel however provision will be made in the springing arrangement so that it can take additional impact load if we spend a little more money on it. This was left off at the time for economy reasons. MI.~ . WELLS: How many miles will a ship csf 350, 000 tons need to turn around and stop, approximately how many miles "? MR. WRITE: I wonder if we could ask Captain Wallace who is a master mariner to answer that question because he has had experience, he has had some direct experience and has also visited some of the large tanker training terminals. CAPTAIN WALLACE: Mr. Speaker - 25:54

April 22, 1970, T3pe 590. Page 1 -- apb CAPT. WALLACE: To bon. members. The ship was 350,000. Gulf Oil recently did some experiments and they did stopping in two ways. One just stopping the engines and seeing how long it would go, that was 7.8 miles. MR. SMALLWOOD: After stopping the engines; it took nearly eight miles for the ship to come to a stop MR. MURPHY: 7.8 miles was it? DPT. WALLACE: And the other one was a crash a top, that is from full ahead to full astern and this was 2.8 miles which was quite surprisingly low. This of course depends on the weather AN BON. MEMBER: And the power CAPT.

WALLACE: Well yes, and the power, but these ships are all very highly powered. This particular test was done on the Gulf Tanker which is a twin screw one. It is not usual yet to have every tanker of that size MR. ROWE (F.W.): What is the speed, the normal speed? CAPT. WALLACE: Seventeen knots. about seventeen knots Well let me explain how it will happen in Placentia Bay. The pick­ up point will be five miles due west offCape St. Mary's, and then MR. SMALLWOOD: That will be from the pilot &APT. WALLACE: Oh the pilot, yes Sir MR. SMALLWOOD: CAPT. WALLACE: MR. SMALLWOOD: CAPT. WALLACE: Mil. SMALLWOOD: DPT.

WALLACE: MR. SMALLWOOD: Five miles Due west offCape St. Maty's Off Cape St. Mary's Yes Five miles Yes This means that the pilot boat goes out with a pilot aboard, and be boards the big tanker. CAPT. WALLACE: Yes, that is correct MR. SMALLWOOD: CAPT. WALLACE: MR. SMALLWOOD: And he takes charge from there? Yes His docked

~ • f.(l April 22, 1970, Tape 584, Page 2 -- apb CAPT. WALLACE : Yes, that is right HR. SMALLWOOD: This is a pilot licensed by the Canadian Government, under Canadian law? CAPT. WALLACE: That is difficult to answer Sir, because the laws have been r:t!!!erl at :h2 :11cn:ent MR.. SMALLWOOD: They are being made tough, the Canadian Parli~nt making the law governing tankers coming into any Canadian port, making these laws very, very tough, and they will apply to your tankers coming into Come by Chance. CAPT. WALLACE : Yes.

The pick up point is five miles off, well she will be practically stopped at that time and then she will go up possibly start at full speed, by the time she gets to Harbour Buffett she will be in half speed and then she will start to stop. MR. SMALLWOOD: Harbour Buffett CAPT. WALLACE: Yes MR. SMALLWOOD: Half speed CAPrl' WALLACE: Yes. Then by the time she gets to, abeam of Bordeaux Island she will be dead stopped and that is one mile due west of Arnold's Cove. Then the tugs will button on and she will start to go ahead very, very slowly and the tugs will MR. SMALLWOOD: Under her own power? CAPT. WALLACE: Yes MR.

SMALLWOOD: And what will the tugs be doing? CAPT. WALLACE: They will be starting to swing her around. From there to the jetty is one and one half miles so in that one and one half miles we can swing arouad. Now the idea of swinging HR. SMALLWOOD: You mean it takes a adle and one half to swing .-ound a ship CAPT. WALLACE: No Sir, but that gives us plenty of time. She will start going bead up and then gradually stop again and the tugs will turn her s-ound so that abe goes stern up or stem to the north. Then the tugs will tow MR. SMALLWOOD: Does she come into the pier stern on7 CAPT.

WALLACE: Not stem on Sir, s~ern to the no~tb. In other words, heading out. . ·25:i6

April 22, 1970, Tape 590, Page 3 -- apb HR. SMALLWOOD: That is stem in and beading out CAPT. WALLACE: Yes, that is right MR. SMALLWOOD: You tum her around and bring her in stern foremost CAPT. WALLACE: Yes that is right CAPT. WALLACE: The reason for that being that these ships when they come off will be half loaded, and with a prevailing wind in Placentia Bay, being to the south south west to turn her around could sometimes be difficult when she was light.

So, then the tugs will take over and tow her up an until she is abeam of the berth about we will say oh, 200 feet off, and then slowly nudge her in until she is alongside MR. SMALLWOOD: Slowly the tugs push her in CAPT. WALLACE: Push her in yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: Would not a ship of that size, a quarter of a million ton, or a 300,000 ton ship with a couple of million barrels of oil aboard, it is a frightful ~~~teven a couple of · bundred feet off.

When she came in and actually touched the pier, would not she knock it to blazes, it is a terrific weight is it not, just the sheer capillary attraction would almost knock the wharf out would it not? CAPT. WALLACE: Well, that is why we have the tugs and of course the ship's anchor. Because, we will have three very large and powerful tugs as you yourself said and she also has a large and powerful anchor. MR. WBl'IE: Pardon me, just a minute, the dock is designed so the ship approaches at the rate of approximately six inches per minute CAPr. WINSOR; Are those ships equipped with bow thrusters to assist in docking?

CAPT. WALLACE: So far very few bow· thrusters have been put on the large tankers. I think it would be a good idea, but it is extra expense and very few have been equipped with them. One interesting thing is a new machine being developed which eaables the pilot to tell the speed of approach. Not just going ahead or going astern, but sideways and the speed of the swing of the bow or the stern. He can t~ this aboard with him, (it is just like the size of a walkie-t ·alkie) and look at 1t1 and there is a similar thing on the shore. It is very difficult to judge. 25J7

April 22, 1970, Tape 590, Page 4 -- apb Just imagine, a ship and our first one will be 1,090 feet long MR. SMALLWOOD: How long? How long? CAPT. WALLACE: MR. SMALLWOOD: CAPT. WALLACE: MR. CALLAHAN: 1,090 feet 1,100 feet? Well not quite About three and one half football fields CAPT. WALLACE: Yes, that is right, and the pilot will be roughly 250 feet possibly 300 feet from the stern, that is one heck of a lot of great big chunk of iron ahead of you, in fact, one amusing thing but it is quite true, they use b~cycles to get from the accomodation aft to the fo'c's'le head. They do. MR. SMALLWOOD: Why not roller skates?

CAPT. WALLACE: It is dangerous, because you might get a spark MR. BURGESS: Excuse mr Sir, but in relation to the nudging of the dock, would it no·t be a Wise idea to have some of the bon. ministers standing there talking so that you would have a counter wind CAPT. WALLACE: I shall not answer that MR. SMALLWOOD: Do you not think it would be a better idea to have the hon. 111e111ber as an anchor? MR. SMALLWOOD: ·No COlllllleDt, no colllllll!nt MR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, on a Point of Order Sir, the Deputy Speaker sat in the Chair a few moments ago indicated that we are going to lave the two questions earlier asked by the Premier answered. Now I have been waiting all afternoon since the premier asked these questions, and waiting for the answers to be given and we have wandered all over the place, in and out of Come by Chance on monster .ships. Over to Japan, but I submit Mr. Speaker that there are some very important questions that the people of this Province might be a great deal more concerned with.

Although it is good to have this information, but I submit Sir that there is information that is of considerably more importance, and the clock goes on and I suggest we follow the direction given by the Deputy Speaker when he was in the Chair. MR. SMALLWOOD: No hurry now, DO hurry, take all the time we need MR. SPEAKER: If Capt. Wallace wants to continue his answers to these questions 25~8

April 22, 1970, Tape 590, Page 5 -- apb 1 think he is perfectly at liberty to do so MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on this Point of Order now, we have been about au hour and fifteen minutes on the Premiers three questions of which only one has been answered. There are many questions on this side of the House having to do~.with this project and its economics and ~he res~ oi it, oi much ~re consequence than how the ship gets in~o Come by Chance and out, no ma~ter how interesting that is. Surely MR. SMALL'WOOD: That is a matter of opinion MR..

MURPHY: Cannot we wait until we get her tied up before the vi.nter is come again MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. The Captain is explaining something as a direct request from a member of the House. Would he please answer the question if he cares to do so, but I would hope that he would not be receiving quite as much assistance in giving his answers. 'BAPT. WALLACE: Well I can answer some more points on Mr. Smallwood's second question, and to cut down from the dangers of ships running aground which incidentally they are only going to do in Placentia over my dead body MR.

SMALLWOOD: That would not help one bit captain CAPT. WALLACE: Most of these, .in fact, nearly all of these large ships it is insisted on now have two radars not just one, and they are of the most modern type which is called "true motion." 1 will not go into that, bu~ it is the most 110dem type. So they have two radars, they have an ·echo sounder for telling them the depths, they have ship to shore communication, they have D.F., although that is not quite of much. use in Placentia Bay MR.. SMALL'IlOOD: That is direction finder CAPT. WALLACE: Yes, but in the land-locked bay it tends to lose~its efficiency.

They have decca •••••••••••••• . 25~9

April 22nd. 1970 Tape 591 PK - 1 CAPT. HALLACE: Decca and or Loran. Decca being more appropriate on the east side of the Atlantic, and Loran on the west, they are becomi~g more universally used now. And this navtrack machine. ~ow as we all know Placentia Bay is famous for having lots of thick fog. MR.~ 'i5MALLWOOD: Fog. CAPT. WALLACE: Fog, very thick fog. MR. SMALLWOOD: Be careful now, we do not have much fog in Newfoundland. MR. CROSBIE: All in Come-by-chance. HR. SHALLWOOD: Host of it is here in this House. DART. WALLACE: So we manufacture it in 'Come-by-Chance.

But I see nothin~ dangerous at all about the for,. Because as Mr. White pointed·out this morning, the nature of the coastline is seperate it lends itself to excellent radar echoes. I have checked this out, and it quite correct to say that. So fog will not hold us up at all, and it will not in fact, increase a danger that does .not really exist beyond,.an act of God, in brin~ing ships up the drum St. Hary's t~ Come-by-Chance. lind I think that was all you asked me. ~1R..

HICIOI.AN: There is a great deal of concern being expressed now internationally over the size of the tankers and the possible pollution that could be ca~ed by stranding of one tanker. We bad a pretty good example of that in Hova Scotia two weeks ago. Do you know if, as a master mariner and presumably prescribing to these nautical magazines, whether many of the nations now including, and in particular, the Canadian Government is making plans to restrict the size of the tanker that will be permitted in Canadian Ports, an attempt tp reduce the possibility of strandin~ and pollution.

CAPT~ WALLACE: No we are not trjing to restrict the size of tankers, that would not be in the interest of the oil industry because it is more economical to have bigger tankers. But what is being brought in, it is not fully implemented yet, by ll!CO, which is an International Organization, which studies faithfully at sea. in all the aspects and also is active in pollution by routin~ ships over the certain dead weight, for example. Just imap.ine one of these large tankers trying to go through the En~lish Channel, between 25GO

April 22nd. 1970 Tare 591 PK- 2 CAPT. WALLACE: Southeast Enr,land and France. But we would route that to the West of Ireland and down the North of Scotland. That may not what we are going to do, but that is an example. Or comin~ across, they would not allow them to go through the Straits of Belle Isle. They would route them to the south of Newfoundland, and then up . Placentia Bay. MR. HICRlurn: •••• between tankers every week, and there are ninety-four tankers foundered in tha•last five years. I believe this is wha~ is causing concern, the International concern of the trading nations.

The Governments are far more concerned really with protecting the seas and the population than th~y are ~~th making the oil industry possible. CAPT. WALLACE: Wel1 once ar.ain IMCO, this International Organization, they are doing all they can to cut down on accidents. · Incidentally two a week seems to be rather hi~h, but I do not know,(and the Canadian Government), Capt. Blake I think his name is up in Ottawa, and he is Canada's representative on I~tco, now there Dlay be more, there are probably more, but he is the only one I have corresponded with. Does that answer the question? MR.

SMALLWOOD: Where do these ships come from when they have arrived off Cape St. Mary's, where have they come from and by what route? A quarter million ton ship cannot get through the Suez Channel. CAPT. WALLACE: l'1ell it comes from the Persian Gulf, she will come out the Persian Gulf right around the east coast of Africa, round the Cape of Good Hope, and right up through the South Atlantic across the Equator, and straight up for Cape St. Mary's. MR. ~·tALLWOOD: Uow many miles is that? 10,000 miles? CAPT. WALLACE: No. MR. SMALLWOOD: 12,000 miles? CAPT. WALLACE: About 12,000 miles. ~tR.

SMALLWOOD: About 12,000 miles. That is not extraordinary is it? CAPT. WALLACE: It is about exactly the same to mil~ge as" Bantry Bay. MR. SMALLWOOD: As to Bantry Bay. CAPT. WALLACE: Yes. 25:J1

April 22nd. 1970 TApe 591 MR. SMALL1-100D: That is where the oil comes from CAPT. tMLLACE: That is correct. PK - 3 ~~ ME~RY: Could I ask the Captain what the possibilities are of these ships encountering ice in that

section of the coast. And if these 350,000 ton ieviathans can · penetrate ·ice · the same as the · t1anhattan, · t!';.at o;e ar~ hearing so much about now? CAPT. t~ALLACE: I will have to answer that in two parts. I:.did a study on the inches of ice in Placentia Bay in particular. and around the south coast in ~eneral. And since 1922, and only seven times have there been any large icebergs along the southcoast of Newfoundland. And never any in Placentia Bay, except. SOl-IE HON. MEr·ffiER: Inaudible. CAPT. WALLACE: If you would excuse me one second. In answer to the member's question, I said icebergs.

Now there have been seven years, and I cannot recall which one~,but seven years since 1922, when there has been brash that is broken up mess-mash ice across the bottom of Placentia.Bay. And on one of these seven years, we had to use an icebreaker. And that would be no problem to us at all. So Placentia Bay can be said to be completely ice-free. Now the second part, the type of tanker that we are concerned in, is not an icebreaking tanker. So we will have to get an icebreaker, if there was any of this ice across the bottom of Placentia Bay. ~m.

CROSBIE: Have any charters being entered into for tanks to carry this crude oil todate, or are you having~ them constructed. What is the position on the tankers, are you specifying what kind of tankers? MR. WHITE: Hr. Speaker, really I can say we have- chartered tankers. And we right now have a charter for a 226,000 dead weight ton vessel. We h~ve done this in order to establish a rate. Now, however, I would like to further amplify what Capt. Wallace said on the safety aspects of this thin~.

Now I find it hard to believe, I do not know where the statistics: came f-com of two ships a week foundering, but certainly there are only in the tanker world, HR. HICKMAI.'I: I meant colliding, ninety-four in five years foundered. MR. WHITE: iiinety-four in five years foundered, because there are only somethi~g over 3000 tank shi~s of 10,000 ton or larger in the world. Now, of course, 2532

Aprl1 22nd. 1970 Tape 591 PIC. - 4 MR. l.JlliTE: 3000 vessels is quite a bunch of vessels, and if you add to that all the other cargo ships, why of course, you will have a few collisions and it is the same has you have with automobiles, they run together but, this does not necessarily mean they spill large quantities of oil. It has been unfortunate, that we have had two rather serious spills that have been in the news, the Tory Canyon, when one of the ship's captains decided to take a short cut on a route that he had absolutely no business to be. And this was a human error.

The other vessel that I can think of, which happened very recently in Nova Scotia, I had talked to some of my contacts in the shipping business, in New York, and they claim that this ship was a vessel over age and crew maintenance. MR. S~~LWOOD: It was an old tug, and I have that have as high authority as you ean get. An old broken down tug, it was fallen apart. MR. WliiTE: And we will certainly will not have vessels of this class. MR. CROSBIE: Under

Section 6(

H) of the Agreement, you are to contract the chartered vessels to transport all crude oil required, and to transport all products manufactured by the plant to the market. And the charge be the Government company an amount equal to your cost. And such cost the chartered rate has to be approved by the Government's Crown Company. Now have you arranged for the chartering of a vessel as yet? And if so,. what is the charter hire, is it at the International charter higher on the open market~ar what is the arrangement? MR. WHITE: Could I address a question to you, Mr. Speaker.

Should I continue to answer the Premier's question or should we get into ••• MR. SPEAKER: I think it would be advisable to stick to the question until w. cleaned up this point, and then we will have an opportunity to .return to other subjects or related subjects. HR. CROSBIE: ~Ir. Speaker, we have been on tankers and haw they turn around and so on for sometime. And the type of tankers, so I am asking a question in eonnection with tankers. what HR. SPEAKER: Hhat we have been doing,/I am trying to avoid is, these people are trying to answer a question that is being posed•~, and there have been 25~3

April 22nd. 1970 Tape 591 PK - 5 MR. SPEAKRR: side issues and supplementary questions arising. This is why it is taking so long. There are so many side issues, so many supplementary questions, that the question that was asked originally is not being answered. Now 1 would perfer the question asked originally ,.,.ere answered now, and " then we can turn to some other subject and everybody will have '11'! opportunity. MR. WHITE: Hr. Speaker, MR. HICXHAN: MT. Speaker aa to pollution by the tankers. MR. SPF~R: We are on the answer~to the question that was asked by the bon. the Premier, as Question No. 2. MR.

HJIITE: Navir,ational question. MR. HICK!fAN: To co'l'lplete the statistics for your information t-i:r. ~Vhite, the spillage from tankers last year was 284 million ~allons of oil. Now this did not all come from collision. But apparently one of the most serious things concerning the Canadian Nation today, is the flushing out the tankers and the storage comparts at sea.

Now can you .tell us if the Law of the Sea is becoming more restrictive right now, not only to the size of tankers, cost of tankers, prohibiting flushing out at sea, all of which are very relevant t'o the cost of this project, because again you,as the bon. member for St. John's West pointed out, you are responsible for getting the chartered boats and that is charged back then to the operation. MR. WHITE: Yes, Sir, the volume of oil

April 22nd., 1970 Tape no. 592 Page 1 volume of oil that you have mentioned is very small in relationship to the amount of oil that is transported each year across the seas of the world. We have done a little research on that subject, and we-_find that any day, any particular~d~, that you want to choose, there will be approximately 350 million barrels-of oil afloat. This oil would require may be an average of say ten days to ~each its destination so there we have about 3 billion barrels of oil every ten days or about 3 billion barrels •• MR. SMALLWOOD: niree thousand 'lllillion. MR.

WHITE: About 3,000 million barrels of oil every ten days, so you multiply that on out to a year, you will find, and you reduce your gallon each figure dowa, it would amount to about 5 million barrels a year of oil that go out from all sources of pollution. This is infinitesimal. You could:not even put a percentage on it at that point; so I would say probably that certainly the motor boats that operate in the ponds and lakes around this Island put a lot more oil on the water in proportion to the area water, than we ever will in Placentia Bay. MR. SMALLWOOD: Are you joking? Would you spell that out again?

You say what? MR. WHITE An outboard motor , when· it runs) pol.htes the water with oil. The lubricating oil that you put in, very little of that oil burns, most of that oil winds up floating on the surface of the lake or the pond where the boat operates. How any of you that have a boat, say thirty-five horse-power motor, .you know how much oil you burn on a weekend, when you go out to water ski.

I say that in proportion to the amount of area that is covered, if yau go out to one of the lakes and run your motor boat all day in proportion to that and the proportion of oil that would ever get into Placentia Bay, even under very adverse conditions, the amount of oil per square mile _ would certainly be a lot more in the lake, than it ever would be on the Placentia Bay. MR. HICKMAN: It would be unfortunate to have an explosion like that brand new 200,000 ton super tanker, Mara Passa had recently. 25o5

April 22nd., 1970 Tape no. 592 Page 2 HR. WHITE: Yes, it was an unfortunate accident. It was an explosion while the ship was empty. HR. NEARY: I have heard it said that fifty per cent of the tonnage of cb1S boat at any one given time is oil. ·1s this a correct statement? _MR. WELLS: Point of Order, Mr. Speaker, I really, Sir, mus