Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 24 (26th Legislature, 3rd Session)

26-3-24

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Name ALEXANDER, Keith BAIZLEY, Obie BJORNSON, Oscar .F. CAMPBELL, D. L. CARROLL, Hon. J.B. CHRISTIANSON, John Aaron CORBETT, A. H. COWAN, James, Q. C. DESJARDINS, Laurent . DOW, E. I. EVANS, Hon. Gurney FORBES, Mrs. Thelma FROESE, J. M. GRAY, Morris A. GROVES, Fred GUTTORMSON, Elman HAMILTON, William Homer HARRIS, Lemuel HARRISON, Hon.Abram W. HAWRYLUK, J. M. HILLHOUSE, T.P.,Q .C. HRYHORCZUK, M.N., Q.C. HUTTON, Hon. George INGEBRIGTSON, J. E. JEANNOTTE, J. E. JOHNSON, Hon . George . JOHNSON, Geo. Wm . . KLYM, Fred T. LISSAMAN, :R. 0. LYON,H on. �rling R., Q.C. MARTIN, w·. G. ·McKELLAR, M. E. McLEAN,H on.

Stewart E.,Q .C. · MOLGAT, Gildas MORRISON, Mrs . Carolyne ORIJKOW, David PAULLEY, Russell PETERS, S; PREFONTAINE, Edmond REID, A. J. ROBERTS, Stan ROBLIN, Hon. Duff SCARTH, W .B. , Q.C . SCHREYER, E. R. · SEABORN, Richard SHEWMAN, Harry P. SHOEMAKER, Nelson SMELLIE, Robert Gordon STANES, D. M. STRICKLAND, B. P. TANCHAK, John P. THOMPSON, Hon. John, Q.C. WAGNER, Peter WATT, J. D. WEIR, Waiter WITNEY, Hon. Charles H. WRIGHT, Arthur E. Electoral Division Roblin Os borne Lac du Bonnet Lake side The Pas Portage la Prairie Swan River Winnipeg Centre St.

Boniface Turtle Mountain Fort Rouge Cypress Rhine l and Inkater St. Vital St. George Duff erin Logan Rock Lake Burrows Selkirk. Ethel bert Plains Rockwood-Iberville Churchill Rupertsland Gimll Assiniboia Springfield . Brandon Fort Garry St. Matthews Souris-Lans downe Dauphin Ste. Rose Pembina St. John's Radisson Elmwood Carillon Kildonan La Verendrye Wolseley River Heights Brokenhead Wellington Morris Gladstone Birtle -R ussell St.

James Ham iota Emerson Virden Fisher Arthur Minnedosa Flin Flon Seven Oaks Address Roblin, Man . 185 Maplewood Ave., Winnipeg 13 Lac du Bonnet, Man. 326 Kelvin Blvd ., Winnipeg 29 Legislative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 86-9th St . , N. W. , Ptge. la Prairie, Man . Swan River, Man . 512 Avenue Bldg ., Winnipeg 2 138 Dollard Blvd ., St. Boniface 6, Man • Boissevain, Man . Legisla tive Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 Rathwell , Man . Winkler, Man . 141 Cathedral Ave ., Winnipeg 4 3 Kingston Row, St. Vital , Winnipeg 8 Lundar, Man.

Sperllng, Man . 1109 Alexande r Av e., Winnipeg 3 Holmfield, Man. 84 Furby St ., Winnipeg 1 Dominion Bank Bldg ., Selkirk, Man. Ethelbert, Man. Legislative Bld g., Winnipeg 1 Churchill, Man . Meadow Portage, Man . Legislative Bldg . , Winnipeg 212 Oakdean Blv d., St .James, Wpg. 12 ·Beausejour, Man • 832 Eleventh St., Brandon, Man . Legisl ative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 . 924 Palmerston Ave., Winnipeg 10 Nesbitt, Man . Legisla tive Bldg . , Winnipeg 1 Ste. Rose du Lac, Man. Manitou, Man. 179 Montrose St., Winnipeg 9 435 Yale Ave.W., Transcona 25, Man . 225 Melrose Ave., Winnipeg 15 St.

Pierre, Man. 561 Trent Ave ., E.K il d., Winnipeg 15 Niverville , Man . Legisla tive Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 407 Queenston St., Winnipeg 9 Beausejour, M� . 594'-.Aj:iington St. , Wfunipeg l.i> ·Morris . Man. · Neepawa, Man. - R�s�ell �. Man�_ 381 Guildford St. , St. James, Wpg. 12 iiamiota , Man . Ridgeville, Man. Legislative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 Fisher Branch, Man . Reston, Man . Minnedosa, Man . Legislative Bldg . , Winnipeg 1 4 Lord Glenn Apts .1 944 Main St ., Wpg.1 7 . /

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o' clock, Wednesday, March 15th, 1961. Opening Prayer by.Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. ReaQ.ing and Receiving Petitions. MR. CLERK: The Petition of Muriel Lyons and Others, praying for the passing of

An Act respecting the Practice of Speech and Hearing Therapy. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees. Notice of Motion. Introduction of Bills. MR. JAMES COW AN, Q. C. (Winnipeg Centre) introduced Bill No. 42,

An Act to amend . The Winnipeg Charter 1956, and to validate By-Law No. 18547. MR. W. B. SCARTH, Q. C. (River Heights) introduced Bill No. 44,

An Act to amend

an Act to incorporate Hudson Bay Mining Emp loyees' Health Association. MR. SCARTH introduced Bill No. 58,

An Act to incorporate Great North Savings and Loan Association. MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk) introduced Bill No. 47,

An Act to provide a Charter for the City of West Kildonan. MR. RUSSELL PAUL LEY (Leader of the CCF)(Radisson) introduced Blll No. 49,

An Act to provide a Charter for the City of Transcona. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. s. PETERS (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to introduce through you to the members of this House a group of students sitting to your right in the galle ry. They number 25; they're Grade VI students from the George V School and they're here with their teacher, Mr. Wi lliam Dueck. He informs me that there are what they call 26 major work classes in the City of Winnipeg and this group of students is one of that group of 26. Their IQ ranges from 130 to 150.

Their teacher also tells me that he has in this group some future MLAs, and I would say this, Mr. Speaker, that their chances are very, very good, for the Leader of my group and myself both attended the George V School. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speak er, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to bring to the attention of the House the loss of one of the distinguished citizens in Manitoba to another province. I am referring to His Grace Archbishop Pocock who is leaving Winnipeg this week to take new duties in Toronto.

While I realize that not all the members of this House belong 'to the faith of His Grace, I think it is fair to say that he took his place in this province as one of the distinguished people interested in public affairs, that he took his place in the life of the City of Winnipeg in such things as the Welfare Council, and was interes ted in the welfare of al( Manitobans, and that, at this time, is a loss to this province that he is no longer to be with us but will take new charges in the Province of Ontario. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Prem ier)(Wolseley}: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to associate my self with the statement just made by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose because I'v e had the advantage of the personal acquaintance of the Archbishop of Winnipeg and can vouch for the contribution that he has made to the religious and cultural life of this community. We are in deed sorry to lose him, but we know that he goes to a new responsibility and a very important one, and I believe that he carries with him in his new responsibilities the good wishes of all the people of the province. MR.

EDMOND PRE FONTAINE (CarUlon): Monsieur l'orateur il me fait un grand plaisir de m'u nir au depute de Ste-Rose et au Pre mier Ministre pour exprimer le regret des Canadiens Francais du Manitoba au sujet du depart de Son Excellence Monseigneur Pocock. Monseigneur Pocock etait un grand ami des Canadiens Francais de cette province et je suis certain que c1est avec tristesse que nous le voyons partir. J'exprime aussil e regret du groupe auquel j' appartiens parce qu' il etait aussi un homme que nous considerions beaucoup. En glish Translation of above: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join with the Member for Ste.

Rose and the First Minister in expressing the regret of the French Canadians of Manitoba on the departure of His Excellency Bishop Pocock. Bishop Pocock was a great friend of the French Canadians of this province and March 15th, 1961 Page 855

(Mr. Prefontaine, cont.1d.) ••.•• I am sure it is with sadness that. we see him leave. I also expre� s ·the regret of the Party to which I belong because here was a man we held in high es teem. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join on behalf of my group in the regrets, and yet at the same time when I mention regrets so far as the Province of Manitoba is concerned and the Archdiocese of Winnipeg at the loss of one of our friends, I'm sure that while expressing our regret, that it wlll be a gain to those in Eastern Canada.

I had the privilege of meeting His Grace on numerous occasions and always found him to be a very understanding person, one who we ·could meet and chat with at any occasion. As has been said, his contribution to the religious and cultural life of Winnipeg and this area wlll be long remembered. On behalf of my group, I join in a tribute to His Grace and wish him Godspeed in his new charge. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. HON. GEO. HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture)(Rockwood-Ibervllle): Mr .

Speaker, be fore the Orders of the Day, I would like to announce to the members of the House, the setting up of another area for crop insurance, which wlll include seven municipalities, Cartier, Assi niboia, Charleswood, St. Francois Xavier, Rockwood, Woodlands and Rosser.

These munici palities lie within Crop District 3, and possibly one of the reasons why it was chosen, the fact that the areas set up last year fell within Crop District 3, and a great deal of the research that is required in establishing a district was done in respect of District 3, and they were able to establlsh another fairly large area without undertaking too much more research. However, I would assure the House that the research is now and has been going on in respect of other areas in the province in anticipation of further areas for 1962. MR. DAVID ORLIKOW (St. ·John's): Mr .

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I wonder lf I could direct a question to the Minister of Industry and Commerce ? I'm wondering if members could be provided with copies of the Economic Survey Report which are being made. I don't know whether enough are available for every member of the House but I think that they should be available for all who want them. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce)(Fort Rouge): Well, Mr . Speaker, I should be glad to supply copies to any interested member.

I think, as the honour able member has just pointed out, there are not enough copies to make a general distribution, but I'm sure we can spare enough for those who have an interest in either of the surveys. I shall be glad to supply my honourable friends. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Public Utlllties)(The Pas): Mr . Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to lay on the table of the House the reply to a question dated February 27th, in the name of the Honourable Member for Brokenhead.

I'd also like to lay on the table of the House, a Return to an Order of the House, No. 7, in the name of the Honourable Member for Brokenhead, and another question in the name of the Honourable Member for Bro kenhead as well. HON. GEO. JOHNSON (Minister of Health and Public Welfare)(Glmli): Mr . Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to table a reply to a question of the House dated Fri day, March lOth, by the Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Committee of Supply. MR. ROBLIN: Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney General, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr . Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Department VII - Attorney-General. MR. ROBLIN: Mr.

Chairman, before we proceed with the estimates for the Department of the Attorney-General, a matter has arisen recently that is causing me a good deal of concern, and I think I should like tO place it before the committee at the present time, and that is, the question was asked the other night by one of the honourable members of the Minister of Agri culture and Conservation, which, .although may have been innocent in its intent, raises what is Page 856 March 15t h, 1961

(Mr. Roblln, cont1d. ) ••••• in effect a very serious matter, and I'm referring to the question raised by the Honourable Member for Brokenhead in which he asked the Minister of Agriculture and Conservation if he had reqeived a loan from the Manitoba Farm Credit Corporation.

I don't know whether he is aware of the seriousness of the implications that arise from that question, but it seems to me that it may bear very hardly indeed on the personal integrity of the Minister and whether or not he was using his position as a member of the Executive Coun cil for his own personal advantage, indeed as to whether or not he hasn't actually broken the law in this respect, and I regret I was not in the House when the matter was raised, but to my mind it hasn't been disposed of satisfactorily in the exchanges that I've noted in Hansard or in the newspaper.

I would like to ask the Honourable Member for Brokenhead if he would please elaborate on this inquiry that he raised, because I think it should be fully ventilated in this comm ittee, because it does raise a charge of a most serlous nature against the character and the integrity of one of the Ministers of the Crown , and I think that, while I trust it arose in an entirely innocent matter, I think that the honourable member should make a further statement on this subject so that it can be disposed of in a suitable manner. MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr.

Chairman, I, of course , realize that ignor ance of the law or ignorance of the situation is no excuse, but when I raised the question I certainly wasn't aware that there was in fact any restriction as to the Minister's -- shall I say I wasn't aware that there was any restriction which would in fact bar the Minister from avail ing himself of this opportunity to borrow capital. Now that I know differently I, of course, have no compunction whatsoever of apologizing to the Minister, to the First Minister, and to all members of this House, for whatever unfortunate inference I might have made . MR.

ROBLIN: ••.•••••••••.••. the honourable member, I think that's a very suitable reply. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr. Chairman, before we proceed with the next set of estimates, there were a couple of things, I think, held over from the Departm ent of Agriculture and I wonder when we may expect a reply. I'm thinking spec ifically of the matter of the power line that I brought up and the Winnipeg Floodway, and I believe the Honourable the First Minister was looking into that. He may not have the reply yet. All I would like to know is when we may be able to discuss it. WJ.R. ROBLIN: Mr.

Ch airman, I think the Minister of Publlc uttllttes wtll deal with that when he comes to his own estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Attorney-General. HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q. C. (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): Mr.

Chairman, it's with some trepidation that I arise in the House this afternoon in commi ttee, because we have just completed a week in which the debate ranged, as I recall, from everything, including I think at the start leafy spurge, to coyotes, and we ended up in the floodway, and I suppose now that when a Minister of the Crown stands up in this commi ttee the me mbers opposite must feel something like the condemned man back in the earller days of this province when we had public hangings, a condemned man who was led out by the sheriff before a large group of people and the appointed hour was approaching for his hanging, for his execution; he climbed the scaffold with the sheriff, and the sheriff, being a very meticulous person, checked his watch, found that there was sttll ten minutes to go before the order of the court could be properly carried out, whereupon he advised the crowd of this fact, and one of the local politicians, being very keen for such occasi ons and see ing a captive audience in front of him, came up to the sheriff and said: "In view of the fact that you have ten minutes before this occasi on takes place, per haps I could address a few words to the assembled crowd.

" Whereupon the accused looked at the sheriff and he said: "Sheriff, if Joe Smith's going to speak, hang me first. " So I suppose that perhaps some of the members oppos ite would be in the position of the accused when they see any of the Ministers over here stand up now on the question of estimates. I'm going to attempt today, Mr. Chairman, to give the House a very general review of departmental activities over the past year. I don't claim that it will be exhaustive in any way at all, and perhaps there wtll be a number of items that I will miss that will probably evoke questions from the other side.

Of course I have the privilege of being the head of a department that is notoriously a non-contentious one, and I would expect, of course, that our estima tes would go through with very little trouble or time at all. March 15th, 1961 Page 857

(Mr. Ly on, c ont'd. ) ••••• I should mention first of all, Mr. Chairman, that I was personally able this year, as I have attempted in all years since I have had the honour of being in this office, of touring all of our correctional institutes in the province, sometimes in the company of the Director of Cor rections or the Deputy Attorney-General and sometimes by myself.

I think there ls nothing llke getting a personal view of what is going on in your institutions so that you are better able to assess the problems and perhaps assist those who are working in the institutions wlth mat ters which are causing them some concern. Generally, with respect to gaols, I am happy to be able to advise the House that our gaol population in our largest institution, namely Headingley Gaol, while slightly larger than last year, is still lower than it was in our peak year, for the year ending March 31st, 1959, when we had a peak population, average population of 482.

Last year, as you wlll note from the re port, the Gaol Report that has been circulated in the House, the population averaged 437. 3, and this year to date, and this is only an estimate, the average daily population for the year ending March 31 st, 1961, is estimated to be 456. 5 -- that's at Headingley institution -- an increase of approximately 20 on the average over last year. And while we do have this increase I think nonetheless it is encouraging that we are able to keep this average daily population at roughly the 450 mark.

And again I suggest to the House that this is, at least indirectly, one of the in dications of the beneficial effect which the expanded probation plan is having upon populations in our adult institutions and indeed in our juvenile institutions across the province. There are no major capital matters to spealt aJ:>Out with respect to gaols. I could mention that there will be a new workshop providing approximately 1, 200 to 1, 500 square feet of additional space for workshop facilities at Headingley Gaol, which wlll be constructed some time this spring, being set up on the· new base.

There were some other capital improvements to Headingley Gaol of a minor nature but nothing worth mentioning in any great detail at this time. The most extensive renovations and alterations that we undertook this year to the gaol plants occurred at The Pas where they are now practically completed, and we have increased the facilities there by some 24 to 25 beds.

That is an old building up there, but with the renovations that have been made, the provision of a new kitchen and a new dormitory facility on the second floor, as well as segregated faclllties for women and for juve!illes, I think we can count this as a notable im provement in the gaol faclllties which are offered to the people of northern Manitoba. Members will realize, of course, that this institution keeps prisoners only on a short term basis.

Those in that area who are sentenced to longer terms go either to Dauphin, in the case of men, some times to Headingley, or to the Portage Gaol for Women in the case of women. In the overall gaol program I think the point upon which I would like to dwell most in the adult field is on the rehabilitation camp program. You recall last year, Mr. Chairman, that I spoke at some length about what we then deemed to be the success we were having at the Nor quay Beach Camp just outside of Portage la Prairie.

Our hopeful expectations at that time have now been, I would say, perm anently confirmed tn that we now have transferred that camp to a new camp at Falcon Lake which we call the Falcon Lake Rehabilitation Camp, and there we are finding that the camp program is working with perhaps even greater success than we have anticipated. As of January 31st, 196 1, we have had 105 trainees in the Falcon Lake Rehabili tation Camp, including 30 who were there on that date. Since September 1st, 196 0, when this plan was first started, to January 31st of this year, trainees have earned a total of some $3 , 000.

At the end of August 196 0, when the Norquay Beach Camp was closed, the wages earned by trainees at Norquay Beach totalled just over $4, 000. At the Falcon Lake Camp to . . date only.o ne trainee has been charged with escape from lawful custody, and this we consider an exceedingly good omen because it displays and demonstrates the attitude of trust which is instilled into the trainees when they are sent and selected to go to this camp.

Total number of men in both the Norquay and Falcon Lake Camps to date has been 188 trainees; total number of some 4.8 representing approximately 25 percent of the men discharged from these two camps have, to the best·of our knowledge, been later recommitted to Headingley Gaol for further of fences.

Now we can't keep accurate check on all of these people because some of them disperse to all parts of Canada, but to the best of our information the rate of recidivism so far, and this of course is only indicative of the trend -- it can't be given as a firm figure which shows the actual rate of recidivism -b ut on the basis of the information that we've been able to Page 858 March 15th, 1961

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd. ) ••••• gather so far, the instance of recidivism from our trainee program at these camps is 25 percent. And honourable members recall, Mr. Chairman, that the general rate prevailing in Headingley Gaol and in federal institutions acro8s the country ranges from 65 to 80 percent. I think they will realize that even if this rate were to increase to 50 percent lt would still indicate and demonstrate that the camp is having a definite rehabllltative effect upon those who pass through its doors.

From May 18th to November 16t h of this past year, 196 0, some 23 inmates. from Brandon Gaol worked at the Kemnay Park Project, and these prisoners earned a total of some $61 1. 00. While this project could not be constituted as a camp project in the true sense of the word, in asmuch as the men returned to the gaol quarters for sleep and for their off hours, nonetheless the response to the program was exceedingly good, and a good portion, or a good number of the men at Brandon Gaol were able to be kept occupied in their very worthwhile activities at this Kemnay Park.

In addition to that at Cranberry Portage this past year, during the months of May and June -- May 25th to June 29th -- we had 12 men from the gaol at The Pas working on a project of dismantlement whereby they earned some $288. 00. This again was another project provided by the Department of Mines and Natural Resources. It did not involve forestry work but did give work for these 12 men for the period stated. This was also considered by those in charge of the institution at The Pas to have been quite successful. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I think some of the facts and figures with respect to what is being done in the camp program would be of interest to the members of the committee. On November 23rd, 1959, the first rehabilitation camp for prisoners from a custodial institution was opened, as I've mentioned, at Norquay Beach, seven miles east of Portage. The work projects suitable for inmate labour were completed at that camp on August 31st, 196 0, and as I previously men tioned, it was then transferred to the Falcon Lake site.

The men, during these nine months at Norquay Beach, put in approximately 5, 384 working days at the rate of 75 cents per man per day, or averaged out at approximately $38. 82 per man. The government had purchased the 78 -acre site at Norquay Beach for development as a tourist recreation park. Camp program was operated in close co-operation with the Forestry Branch of the Department of Mines and Natural Resources, who assumed the responsibility for laying out the work project.

My de partment assumed responsibility for providing the labour, supervision of the trainees, living accommodation for the trainees, and supervisory positions were undertaken jo intly by the Department of the Attorney-General and the Department of Mines and Resources. I think honourable members will 'be interested, Mr. Chairman, to hear just what was ac complished in this nine-month period at Norquay Beach. First of all, approximately 70 acres of underbrush were cleared and burned including all dead and diseased trees. Green trees were limbed up to six feet. Green stumps too heavy to handle were blasted out.

All stumps in the above acreage were grubbed out by hand. Seven thousand feet of survey lines were run; a 40-foot wide road was cleared for 1, 500 feet, and a 20-foot wide road was cleared for some 3, 000 feet. Eight wells were dug and cribbed bearing in depth from 11 to 18 feet. Water sur vey was taken requiring three rows of poles at 50 feet intervals for the entlre length of the lake. Twenty-five hundred cedar logs were peeled and head-rounded to be used as decoratlve posts in other parks and recreation centres in Manitoba. Some 164 picnic tables were made and given two coats of paint.

These are the picnic tables that you'll find at picnic or campsites along our highways in Manitoba. And the prisoners, the trainees at this camp, some tlmes during off hours and sometimes as work projects, turned these out in the workshop which we have set up at that camp. An outside toilet of the prefabricated type was tried out, 20 by 24, but proved too complicated in design to carry on with the building of this at the camp.

The trainees built two 20 by 36 foot bunkhouses of the prefabricated type at the Norquay Beach Camp which we subsequently moved down to the Falcon Beach Camp and which provided the building accom modation for the new Falcon Beach Camp. In other words, they built their own accommodation at Norquay to supply those who would follow them when the camp was moved to Falcon.

Some 66 individual camp sites were levelled, raked and trenched; 33 double car-parking sites and seven trailer sites were cleared, while 30 acres of land was hand-raked and burned; weed eradica tion was carried out on another 30 acres; three roadside parks were raked and cleaned up in the Portage la Prairie area; 2 1/2 acres of beach were cleared of willow growth and reeds in the water area; nine outdoor fireplaces were bullt of the cement and brick type; several March 15th, 1961 Page 859

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd. ) .•• •• hundred feet of road-clearing and underbrushing was done on the approach fr om the Trans Canada Highway, also the railway approach, and a 200 -foot pontoon bridge project, which was not completed due to lack of time, was all that was required to finish thls work -- all that was required to finish thls work was two more pontoon sections and an anchorage. They had started that work. The camp, as I previously mentioned, was operated on a very minimum security basis, and he nce there was nothing to prevent trainees from leav ing the campsite without permissi on if they chose to do so.

Of the 104 men transferred from Headingley Gaol to the rehab camp, only 13 have been returned to the gaol as unsatisfactory, that is, as show ing a propensity fo r unsatisfactory behaviour under the minimum secur ity con ditions. And as I previously mentioned, one from Falcon and two from the Norquay Camp sub sequently were charged with escape from lawful custody. I think I gave to the members of the committee last year, Mr.

Chairman, the basis of selection wh ich is used for gathering together the complement of our trainees at the camp, and I don't propose to burden the committee with running over th ose facts and figures again. The Falcon Beach Camp has been almost completely erected by the trainees under st2ff supervis ion. Accommodation at this camp has now been provided for approximately 35 trainees and slx staff members, plus a kitch en, a dining hall , an offi ce, a wash room and storeroom facilitie s.

The workshop that we previously had at Norquay Beach was dis mantled and has been reassembled at Falcon Beach, and it wlll serve to augment the work program during any severe winter weather that we may have . A good well has been dug and a pump installed, and this is now providing running water at the campsite. A fruithouse has been built, by the trainees again, for the storage of vegetables. All in all, it's a very impress ive self-contained unit; rustle yes. It's not frllly in any way at all.

The lnterlor walls aren't painted; the floors are a bit rough, but I would say lt compares favourably with any type of work or camp project that you would walk lnto" ln northern Manitoba or ln any fore stry area right across thls country. It's good, solid accommodation -- bread and butter accommodation for working men who are out putting eight hours of the ir tlme lnto the bush, and when they come back lnto the camp they get good soll.d working men's meals.

Along with members of the Press, members of the staff, and others, that we have taken down there fro m time to time , I have been favour ed with a few of the meals cooked by the trainees themselves. They have trainee cooks as well, and bull cooks, and I don't think anybody who has eaten at that camp could push himself away from the table fe eling anything but extremely full. At the present time, at the Falcon Lake Camp, one work crew is clearing underbrush from a road on the south side of Falcon Lake, while the second crew has been clearing addi tional ski runs at the eastern end of the lake.

Some considerable underbrushing has already been done along the Trans Canada Highway close to Falcon Beach. I could mention some of the other projects tha t they are undertaking at the present tlme. During the win ter months wh en. the population at Falcon Beach ls reduced to a mlnlmum, the trainees are taken up into the settled cottage areas whe re they clear out underbrush and fire hazards around the cottages.

During the summer months , of course, whe n the population at the beach slte will swell, the trainees will .be taken to less settled portions whe re they wlll carry on this refore station work that they have been doing. To date we have , as I've mentioned, had only the one instance of an escape. We have had no complalntsJfr om the local residents of that area. Indeed we find this type of thing is happening, we find that the trainees at the camp are pttching in with the local residents down there helping the m to build the curll.ng rink.

They did that this spring, and they also helped with an lee skating rink th is past fall. We find as well that the trainees .. have a curling club going with the local residents at Falcon Be�ch, and they're particlpatlng, as I understand, in quite an active

schedule of curling. In addltlon, the men down there are able to skate on a rlnk th at has been cleared off nearby. They have the usual recreational fac l' Htles that you would flnd at any camp - cards, darts, ch ess, ch eckers, and so on and so forth . They have a TV set wh ich they can watch for certain stipulated hours . So, all ln all, I would think anyone going lnto such a camp as I have from tlme to tlme, unless you knew that it was a prison camp, I think you would find it hard to imagine that these people are actually men who are serving sentences of imprisonment for some breach of the law.

They conduct the mselves as any ordinary working man would conduct himsel f in a very regular fashion , and I think all in all it's proving to be a tremendous succe ss. I'll be happy if any questions are asked later Page 860 March 15th, 1961

(Mr. Lyon, cont1d. ) ••••• to give any further detail that might be required with respect to this camp. I think this year was significant, Mr. Chairman, in that it marked the opening of the new Manitoba Home for Girls !.n West St. Paul on the 14th of May.

The first girls were moved lnto this institution on the 6th of June from the old Dynevor Home , and by the early part of July the remaining girls , who had been cared for under the auspices of the Home of the Good Shepherd, were moved to the new Manitoba Home for Girls, that is, the non-Catholic girls were moved back to the new Home, the Roman Catholic girls remaining in the Home of the Good Shepherd. I think, Mr. Chairman, that it would be of interest to the commi ttee to find out just what type of program is be ing carried on at this new home.

I would suggest to any honourable members here who were not able to come to the opening or who have not had the opportunity to drop into that home, that they should do so. We're extremel y proud of it. I think lt can rank certa inly among the first rank of institutions of its kind in Canada. Certainly the physical fac llitles are there to provide very adequate and proper training for these unfortunate girls who must be commi tted to the Home. Perhaps I can give you some idea of what their program involv es.

We've had a number, you may have seen from time to time that there have been a number of runaways from this Home . This is very true and we're the first to admit it. It's the minimum secu rity type of institution. We have screens on the windows, or we have now -- we've waited some time for them but the girls being fairly hefty can kick these screens off the windows from time to time, and that they do, let me assure you, and they run. But notwithstanding the fact that we have a few getting away, and let me make this clear, Mr. Chairman, I don't worry about that.

I don't worry about them getting away from time to time, and I'm not saying to the girls that I encour age them to get away, but I say this, that if it comes to a question of having a maximum security institution where nobody will run away, or a minimum se curity institution where you can do some good for these girls but where some of them will run away, Pll take the latter anyttme. I think honourable members across the way will agree with me.

But in contrast to this proble m that we have from time to time of girls getting a wandering spirit, it's cle arly evident that many of these girls are capable of using a limited amount of freedom, as illustrated by the fact that 23 of the girls -- 23 of these girls out of a population of some -- averaging around 34 to 35 -- were granted Christmas leave , and 22 of the se girls returned on time after the Christmas leave. Among the girls were a number who had repeatedly either tried to escape or had es caped from this Home on previous occas ions.

Week-end leaves are granted to girls as an in cen tive to greater efforts, and practic ally every girl allowed this privilege has returned on time. On Friday night -- this is part of their routine -- two or three of the girls usually come into the City by themselves on the bus to see a show, have lunch and return to the institution by 10 o' clock. And again very few of these girls have abused this privilege.

In other words, privileges are extended, freedom is extended to these juvenile s, because they have to be trusted sooner or later with it; you can't keep them there forever and you'v e got to break them into the habit, to keep them as much in tune with the life in the rest of the city as much as you can. As I mentioned, the population has run from a high of 38 down to a low of approxim ately 27 , and it's averaging, on January 31st, 196 1, it was 34. Here is a list of the monthly leisure-time program which has been in effect for several months at this institution.

Two evenings are planned and carried out by a volun teer Jewish men's group. A comm ittee of our girls and members of the group meet regularly to discuss program possibiliti es. Four drama group sessions are led by a volunt eer, and I would stress the fact, and I think members of the commi ttee wlll notice, that most of this activity, after hour activity, is carried on by volunte er groups in and about the Greater Winnipeg area.

And in passing, I can only pay great tribute to these people, who, of their own volition, are giving up their time and talents - no remuneration at all -- to come out and to help augment the pro gram that is given to these girls in the Manitoba Home.

Four drama group sessions led by a volunt eer, as I've mentioned; two ballet groups, led by a former Royal Winnipeg Ballet dance r; two baton clas ses, led by a daughter of one of the staff members; four art sessions, led by a professional artist; f{)ur hairdressing clas ses, led by a graduate of the Home; four folk danc ing groups, under, again, volunte er leadership; four gym sessions , where instruction ls given by a professional teach er; four ballroom dancing lessons given by a member of one of March 15th, 1961 Page 861

(Mr.

Lyon, cont1d. ) ••••• the dancing school's staff -- I don't think I should give any plugs at this time -- one square dance sessi on a month, with Bob Kostick1s Square Dance Group; two visual education programs are given; one nationality night, a program presented by represen tatives of ethnic groups, such as the Chinese-Ca nadians, Ukrainian-Ca nadians, etcetera; two volley-ball games a month with community groups; fourte en piano lessons given by staff mem bers and again by volunteers; one program led by the Women's Service Club; one co-ed dance, with volunteer orchestra; one fe ature length movie ; four worship services, planned and led by the girls and by the staff; four handicraft sessi ons, led by the Ladles' Auxiliary to the Home for Girls; one monthly birthday_ party, again led by the Ladies' Auxiliary to the Home for Girls; and one evening downtown at the theatre.

Now, I think that this gives a birds-eye view of the type of program that we're attempting to conduct at the new Home for Girls. In addition to all of the things that I've just mentioned, I think the honourable me mbers will recall, Mr. Chair man, that we conduct, as well, regular academic classes under the guidance of two qualified teachers at that Home where instruction is given, I think it's fr om Grade VI to Grade XII, be cause of course, as we find in most of these homes, the academic qualifications of the people com ing into them usually are not too high. Again, Mr.

Chairman, I don't pretend to have ex hausted all of the program at the Manitoba Home for Girls, but I can only say this, that we are pleased and happy that it ls now a fact of life in Manitoba, it is being put to good use, and we are able to give to the girls of Manitoba, unfo rtunate enough to be comm itted to such an insti tution, a well-rounded, I think, program of activities, a rehabilitative program, which in the long run, I hope, will lead to their becom ing better citizens of this � mmunity. · I should mention as well that the Home for Boys is continuing to do, I think, very splen did work among the numbers of boys who are comm itted to that institution.

Honourable mem bers will be interested to know, I think, that at that Home as well great stress ls placed upon the education program. I have some fi gures here which would indicate just what is be ing done in that regard. At the Manitoba Home for Boys, we have one senior teacher and administrative ass istant on the establlshmeJi.t of the Home; ln addition we have five teachers, that is, quail fled school teachers supplied by the Department of Education. Remember, at thls Home we have an average population, in fact maximum most of the time, of about 130.

But here's what's happening in terms of education at that Home . ·We have eight boys taking classes, full time classes In Grade X, 20 boys taking classes in Grade XI, 30 boys -- two classrooms - taking classes in Grade VID, 18 taking classes in Grade VII, 12 in Grade VI, ten in Grade V, seven In Grade IV, none in Grade m and two in Grade II, for a total of 107 -- 107 boys taking classes at the Home for Boys.

As I mentioned at the Home for Girls, just to go back to that for a moment, classes actually range from IV up to X and they have at the present time some 18 of the 34 girls taking academic instruction at that place. The Home for Boys, I could mention another significant addition that has been made to the tralnlng program, there, and that is ln the field of automotive and driver training courses. Thls course was made possible, and I'm happy to acknowledge this fact, through the co-opera tion and generos ity of Inman Motors and Dr.

Fred Douglas, who provided the department with a 1947 Chevy Sedan, which ln the maln is used as the training and demonstration vehicle. An instructor has been emp loyed on a one-day-per-we ek basis, ass isted by RCMP offi cers In matters concerning The Highway Traffic Act and related subjects, and in me chanical instruc tion ass istance will also be given fro m the parent unit of the Cadet Corps which is established at that Home.

A course of 15 lectures is given in all phases of automotive mechanics and driver training, and while I have the program here, I don't intend to belabour the point and glve the memb ers the subject of each lecture, but I can only assure you that it ls a significant addition to the tralnlng program that we have there . The station-wagon and the farm truck which are used at the Home are also used for instruction purposes in these classes. I should also mention that some facllltie s at the Home for Boys are being made available to local Civil Defence Authorities.

The Civil Defence are conducting a course designed to train rescue teams, and it is approximately equivalent to the 15 -day course for rescue teams which ls given at Arnprior, Ontario. The actual instruction is under the local militia unit but approximately 12 of the staff and several of the boys commi tted to this Home are taking the course. As I men- . tioned at the Home, the program there, again I would suggest, is very well rounded. Their : main problem at the Home for Boys, as it has been for some ttme , ls the problem of Page 862 March 15th, 1961

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd.) ••••• over-crowding. They have a maximum limit of 13 0 and they usually stay around that maximum Hmit all the time. I can't pay sufficient tribute, however, to the superintendent, Mr. Bruce Jones, who conducts a very fine training program for the boys at this institution and generally, we think, turns them out with a little better grasp on life than they certainly had when they went in. Now, Mr. Chairman, a few words about provincial probation. During the past year, the Provincial Probation Service has been extended to Dauphin and to Portage la Prairie.

The pro bation office was opened at the Court House in Dauphin on August 1st, 1960, and provides for probation and parole service both to juveniles and adults in the Dauphin-Swan River area. In the Portage la Prairie district we are giving part-time service as of November 1st, 1960 to Portage la Prairie on a call-basis from the Winnipeg office. Probation services are

now, therefore, provided to most of the province even though the service is often spread over a fairly large district. Nonetheless, it's available in the regional offices that we have established over the past two and a half yea rs. An excellent working relationship, by and large, has been est ablished with the magistrates, the Crown Prosecutors, the defence counsel and the police , and a break-down of this service for the general information of the members of the committee, is as follows: We have probation officers at Flin Flon, Mr.

Orval Strong at Flln Flon and th e Pas, who services those two areas, and goes into Churchill on request; Mr. Douglas Page at Dauphin and the Swan River district; Mr. John Dempster of the Brandon district, lncjuding Virden, Souris, Boissev ain, Minnedosa and Shoal Lake. I mention Mr. Greenburg, who is servicing Portage la Prairie and Gladstone district on a part-time basis; Mr. Richards, who goes into the Lac du Bonnet, Beausejour, Selkirk, Gimli, Arborg, Teulon, Stonewall, Fisher Branch and Eriksdale areas; Mr. Turner, who covers Morden, Carman, Morris, Emerson and St. Boniface District Court; Mr. Bieber, Mr.

Dunham, Mr. Greenburg - part-time, and Mrs. Johnson are all stationed in the Winnipeg City Magistrates' Courts and service those magistrat.es' courts in addition to any calls they rece ive from the County Court Judges Criminal Court, or the Superior Courts of our province. There has been a very marked increase in the number of pre-sentence reports requested by the courts during 1960. Since this service started, Mr. Chairman, on the 1st of February, 1957 , some 1, 147 pre-sentence reports have been completed, but of these, 550 pre-sentence reports were completed in 1960 alone.

So one can see that in 1960, practically half of the work that has been done in the terms of pre-sentence reports was given by the probation ser vice in Manitoba. The following statistics will give you some idea, or a

summary of the year's work toge ther with a

summary of probation services from February 1st, 1957, and these figures are exclusive of Winnipeg and St. Boniface Juvenile Courts. From the end of December, 1959, the case load.-- I should say this, first of all, the approximate failure rate for 1960 has been estimated at roughly 13 percent. Honourable members will recall, Mr. Chairman, that last year wlJ.en I was giving this figure, it was somewhere just under ten percent.

But as I prog nosticated at that time, as the longer the service goes, the greater the number of people who pass through the service, the greater the experience of the probation officers , the greater their tendency to take a chance on more people whom, when they first started out, they might not consider for probation, and one can only expect that this rate of failure is going to increase slightly. But nontheless - and I'm 11ot apologizing for it for a minute because it is still ex tremely low -- nonetheless we notice a sl ight increase in the failure rate.

The present case load as of the end of December, 1960 was 383. Pre-sentence reports completed by the officers in 1960 was 550; restitution collected by probation officers in 1960 alone was $7, 154. 84; court costs colle cted by probation officers during the year or through the instrumentality of probation officers, was some $1, 062. 30. Now, here is a

summary of figures from the first of February, '57, to 31st of December, 1960: Total number of persons placed on probation "" 869; total number of pre-sentence re ports - 1, 147; total amount of restitution collected - $1 5, 638. 27; total court costs collected $11, 991. 13; total unsatisfactory cases or failures during the four-year period - SO. Seventy of these, I might mention, were dealt with by Breach of Recognizance, and the other ten are still at large; no trace is known of them. During the past year; over 400 juveniles were re ferred to adult probation officers. December 1960, they were supervising 137 juveniles on March 15th, 1961 Page 863

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd. ) ••••• probation, 29 on pa,role and 20 on inf ormal supervision, for a total of i86, and remember that these figure s are exclusive of Winnipeg and St. Bonlface . These are largely in the rural areas of Manitoba. There are a total now of 20 estabHshed probation and parole office r pos itions in the department, excluding the family counsellor s. I think that all I can say in a general way about the probation service is this, that again it is proving as we anticipated it would , to be a boon in this fie ld.

I think that the next step obviously is going to be one of extension again of the probation service. We've had a period now in which we have employed new people and we are consol idating them and letting them consolidate themselves into their positions and into the experiences that they are gaining in their own districts, but I think inevitably the trend will be for expansion of this service because not only in terms of humanity but, as well , in terms of dollars and cents it's the practical thing to do.

The next subject that I would touch on briefly was the fact that we had during -- as a matter of fact in the month of January, the second Magistrates' Conf erence convened since this government came to of fice. I think the importance of these conf erences to the magistrates is indicated by the fact that this year only two of the sitting magistrates and juvenile court judges were not in attendance. There'a a tremendously high rate of attendance at these con feren ces because of the good which I fe el all magistrates get from them.

A number of lectures were given during the course of the Magistrates' Conf erence this year, and generally discus sions were led by magistrates and juvenile court judges themselves on problems which they face in their particular field. I should mention as well to the committee, Mr. Chairman, that this year staff members from the department are or wlll be attending two courses sponsored by this department in co-operation with the Department of Unive rsity Ext ension and Adult Edu cation.

The first is a repetition of the course which was started last year for the first time, a course on corrections to which this department contributes a small sum. Nine staff members fro m the department are at present attending the course; it is given one night a week for 12 weeks. The second course, which wlll be an intensive five-day course, is an institute in Dy namics of Deviant Behaviour. A senior staff psychiatrist at the Mental Hygiene Institute in Montreal, Dr. Lapointe, who is also the psychiatrist of St.

Vincent de Paul Penitentia..ry, will be the leading lec.turer; eight members of our department are going to attend this course_ on four consecutive days. I should mention to the com mittee, Mr. Chairman, two matters of some interest, going back again to the gaol fleld just for a moment. From time to time, as we know, there are comm itted to our, particularly to our adult institutions in this province, persons who have psychopathic tendencies or persons who are what we call sexual deviates.

It's always a great problem for the head of an institution to handle these people, because of course they can't be allowed to mingle; they must be kept segregated fr om the rest of the population in the gaol. Very often in my time in court I'v e heard people , defence counsel, courts, and sometimes the Crown, say it's a shame that we do not have fa clllties for the treatment of these people, that is, psychiatric treatment of these people . Well , Mr.

Chairman, we stlll don't have those facilitie s, but I am happy to be able to announce to the comm ittee that at the present time we are having, I think, fruitful discuss ions with the Department of Health and Welfare and with their psychiatric staff, with respect to the beginning of a pilot program whereby a selected and small number of these persons may be taken from our institutions, from our gaol adult institutions in Manitoba, and placed for the balance of their period of incarceration in one of the mental homes of this province where intensive treatment facilities can be made available to them.

Now I don't want to blow this up beyond what it is, because at this stage, as I say, it's at the discussion stage alone, but we are now attempting ..,- and I think it's only proper to co-operate with the Department of Health to see on this pilot project basis whether or not some work cannot be done in this field.

It wlll be a tremendous boost, not only to the treat ment that is given these individual prisoners, but as well it wlll be, I think, it will have a tremendously good effe ct upon the institutions from which they are taken, because of course they are always problem prisoners at the institutions in which they are incarcerated.

And along the same llne s I should mention that discussi ons are going ahead quite actively with the Federal Government at the present time, between all provinces and the Federal Government, • . as I understand it, with respect to the provision of proper fac Ulties for dope addicts, that is, people who are addicted to the use of narcotics, both in the criminal and the non-criminal Page 864 March 15th, 1961

(Mr. Lyon, cont1d. ) ••••• field. Federal Government has presented a plan to all provinces of Canada under which, generally speaking, the following would take place: Federal institutions would be ere cted across the country, to which institution would be comm itted all prisoners who are sentenced under The Opium Narcotic Drug Act; these prisoners on be ing sentenced would, of course, not go to our regular provincial or the regular federal institutions, but would go to the se spec ial segregated institutions des igned and staffe d for the treatm ent of drug addiction.

There would be another facet to this operation in that the non-crim inal addict, if I may use that term, that is, the person who becomes addicted to drugs and to their use through prescrip tions that are given to them - and this field is small, of course - the non-crimi nal addict could by complementary provincial legislation, be comm itted to this same t<Jpe of institution.

And so while I mention this only in passing, I can say to the comm ittee that lt does hold some considerable hope to this province and indeed to all provinces of Canada, that the segregation and proper treatment of drug addicts will not be too far off in the future . We fortunately do not have too great a problem in Manitoba vis-a-vis crim inal treament of drug addicts. British Columbia and some of the east cost provinces have totally a larger problem that do we in the central provinces of Canada.

Nonetheless tt is a problem with tho se sma ll numbers that are from time to time com mitted to our provincial institution, and certainly this offers some sure sign of hope for proper treatment of these people in years to come. I think, before taking my seat, the mem bers would llke to have some sm all reference made to the radar program which I announced last year, and which perhaps some of them have experienced over the past months since I was last privileged to address this commi ttee. I think that we have found, without qualification, that the radar program instituted by the RCMP has been a success.

The three main principles which they had found exhibited in other areas have been exhibited here, and the -results, proper results, have flowed from them, namely, that the proportion of speeding vehicles in Manitoba by and large has been reduced; that the practice of pursuing speeders by the pollce has been reduced; and generally the frequency of accidents and injuries in those areas that fall within the jurisdiction of the RCMP in Manitoba have, as they can prove by statistics, been reduced. As we mentioned in the estima te time last year, Mr.

Chairman, the new procedure was demonstrated before it was put into active use in Manitoba, was demonstrated to practically all of the Crovm Attorneys, the police magis trates, press, radio and TV. We may be accused from the other side of the House, Mr. Chair man, of propagandizing a bit on this, but I think this is a good example of where propagandizing is beneficial to the people, because it gave them a general idea of how the program worked and just what radar speed registering was going to be in Manitoba.

As well, there was a public demonstration of this new technique during the full month or June of 1960, when warning tickets only were handed out to the travelling public who were intercepted by radar.

Signs which we have all noticed, I suppose, from time to time, have been placed on the length and breadth of Manitoba highways now - I have yet to travel on a highway without seeing one of the signs in dicating that radar patrols are in effect; we have now in the Province of Manitoba 21 qualified radar operators on our RCMP staff, all of these trained at the University of British Columbia or the University of New Brunswick.

In seven months of operation, that is, since radar was first brought into service in Manitoba, some 63, 667 vehicles have passed through radar screens; 1, 800-odd warning tickets have been issued, and surprisingly enough, only 318 pro secutions have been instituted. You wlll recall, of course , a good number of these warning tickets were issued in the month of June when no prosecution tickets were issued unless there were accepted circumstances of speed.

On the average, the RCMP advise that one out of every six motorists in Manitoba who was stopped as a result of the radar program had "some mechani cal defe ct to his vehicle, either brakes, headlights, horn, wipers or so mething, which the police, of course, could then require to be remedied immed iately. As an example of the police-motorist contact which has occurred resulting from this new program, I could point out that in the year 196 0 some 26 ,5 04 written warnings were issued by the RCMP, that is, warnings re mechanical equipment or warnings re minor infr actions of speed law and so on.

This compares with 17 , 353 issued in 1959, or an increase of approxi mately 9, 000. The final statist ics, I think, whlch would be of some interest to the commlttee, Mr. Chairman, and I would stress the fact that these apply only to those areas in which the :RCMP have jurisdiction; they are not province-wide statistics but they are statistics which March 15th, 1961 Page 865

(Mr. Ly on, cont1d. ) ••••• apply to those portions of the province policed by the RCMP, show the followlng: In 1959 total accidents in this area of jurisdiction was 3, 894; in 1960 total ac cidents was 3, 882; fatal accidents ln the same area in 1959, 97; in 1960, 84; number of per sons killed in 1959 -- again in this area coming under RCMP jurisdiction -- 115 ; in 1960, 102; persons injured in 1959, 1, 817 ; in 19 60, 1, 779. Now, neither the pollce, Mr. Chairman, nor myself are going to be presumptuous enough to say that all of these decreases were caused by the introduction of radar.

I think that would be the height of foollshness to suggest that, but I would say this, that insofar as excessive speed is a contributing factor to accidents, radar has certainly played an effective role in reducing the excess ive speeds which motorists use in Manitoba.

And insofar as it is a factor in causing accidents and deaths and injuries, I think concurrently ls a by-product, we can say that at least a part of this decrease is attributable to radar, attributable as well to the safety program being carried on by the Department of Public Utlllties and to many other factors as well, but I think radar can claim some portion of the credit for this, especially when we remember that our motor vehicle registrations are going up, our population is going up, in fact our motor vehicle registrations went up from 159, 293 ,6 14 to 308, 470, an increase of 14, 000, and when we consider that fact and consider that the trend, of course, right across the country is for increases in accidents, in killings and in injuries, I think we can take some considerable heart out of the fact that in the RCMP area of jurisdiction there has been a decrease, small nonetheless, but nonetheless a decrease in these figures over the year 1960.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I don't feel that there is anything else with which I wish to burden the committee at the present time. I've attempted to give a very general outline and review of departmental activities, and I look forward to being of whatever assistance I can to members of the committee in answering any inquiries that they might wish to make out. MR. M. N. HRYHORCZUK, Q. C. (Ethelbert Plains): Mr. Chairman, in introducing these estimates the Honourable Minister stated he was doing so with some trepidation and I can understand why, and he certainly has my sympathy.

It isn't one of the easiest departments to administer, and in spite of the assurance of the Minister that it's not contentious, I would say that if there is a department in the government that is contentious, this ls it. It's a diffi cult department to administer, and one of the difficulties, I think, is the fact that you have a sllght amount of conflict, that is, in law enforcement as against custodial care of your offen ders.

And when the Department of Health was being broken up into two branches, one of Health and one of Welfare, I was hoping to hear that part of the responsibility of this particular de partment would have gone to the Department of Welfare, where I think it rightfully belongs. However, we never heard that, and I don't know whether the Honourable the Attorney-General pressed for any changes in that direction or not, but if he didn't he lost a wonderful opportunity.

I think it would be well for both departments and for those people -- unfortunate people that are concerned -- it would be a considerable help if that had been done. However I notice that you are starting a pilot project by taking some drug addicts, I believe, and sex deviates for treat ment at the institutions of the Department of Health. I also believe that the Federal Govern ment is constructLng an institution in Ontario to look after this type of offender. Now the Honourable Minister had quite a bit to say about his rehabllltation program. Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't think I could call it that.

I think that these are just ordinary work camps, and the way I understand rehabilitation is to take your offender who is in custody, and train him first to be able to do something other than he did when he came in to t�e institu.:_ tion, when he gets out, and the other is to prepare him to enter back into society after he has spent some time in the institution. Well, I don't think that this particular program does either one of those.

We want to remember that the type of offenders that we have in our provincial institutions are those, generally speaking, that have commiti:P.d minor offences, they're in there for a short time, and I don't think that that can be called a training program whatsoever. It does serve a good. purpose, in a way. It gives them something to do, and it gives them the opportunity to earn a little bit of money. However, the fact that 25 percent of the recidivism appeared in this particular program strikes me as being very high.

In the first place, the men who are taken out to these wol'k camps are carefully screened, I would think, and they no doubt fall into the category of those who have committed very minor offences and are pretty closely handpicked. As I said, I have no objection to seeing the inmates gainfully em ployed, Page 866 . March 15th, 1961

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd. ) .•.•• but it's most unfortunate that this experiment should be tried at this particular time, espec ially with unemployment as it is, because this type of work, al though it's neces sary and I think it's good work, could be very well utilized in helping those that have familles and are outside of these institutions and have no work available.

I note also that there are quite a number of these trainees, and I think that the other reason for this particular type of program as ide from giving them some, shall we call it gainful em ployment, is to reduce the pressure on the population in our institutions. It wouldn't surprise me at all, Mr. Chairman, if that was the primary motive behind this, because we are at capacity as it is, in sp ite of the fact we have probationary services, parole services, and everything else, established in the Provin�e of Manitoba.

We are running pretty well to capacity, and if you didn't have these work camps, the pressure on our institutions, I think it would just be unbearable. We would have to construct additional institutions, to look after the numbers. I was glad to hear that the Manitoba Home for Girls has at last been completed. This was a matter that came up in the House here quite often during the past say, four years. I am glad to see that the choice of location was acce ptable to the present administration, because there was some doubt as to whether they would accept it or not in the early days of their ad ministration.

I may say, without being too critical, that it just took a little too long to com plete what was more or less an accom plished fact outside of the construction itself. The money was there, the site was there, the plans were there; all you had to do was go ahead. Well, I think what held it up probably was the unsatisfactory, in the opinion of the government, the un satisfactory site.

Now insofar as a home for the boys is concerned I see they're running 41 above the esta blished capacity, and I'd like to just rem ind the members of the committee that we did construct additional facilities at that institution, I believe it was in 1957 , that would accom modate a fur ther 32 boys. And there's one thing that is very important, Mr.

Chairman, that in these homes, especia lly a home for the boys, you don't get too much overcrowding, and if the population is going to remain as it is, or increase from what we see in the newspapers today, and in a very recent one, in the Free Press of March 13, 161, "Big rise in youth crime" throughout the Dom inion -- and that would apply to Manitoba also I think - I do believe that something should be done about it. Now, he mentioned probation.

Well, that was o:1e of the programs instituted by the for mer government, and I'm very glad to see that there has been some effort to expand the ser vices, but I'm very disappointed in the fact that there has been no increase in the estimates of this particular branch, well we can say for two years. Look at the estima tes for the year end ing March 31st, 1960 and we see an appropriation there of $125, 000; for the year ending now - current year, $131 ,0 00, now that's been reduced to $1 28, 000 for the upcoming year.

Well , that hardly looks after the increments and the salaries of these people, leave alone any addi tional staff, and when the Honourable Minister mentions that he's very enthused with this pro gram and tells us how much it is doing for the offender as well as for the Province of Manitoba, and tells us about his future plans, and then doesn't provide any money to carry out those plans , I think a lot of us are going to be very disappointed. Now the department is open to considerable criticism, and this one on probation, and another

article app·eared here just the other day, March 13th in the Free Press, that the Chief Probation Officer raps shortage of probation offi cers. Well, that hardly coincides with what the Honourable Minister has been telling us this afternoon. Well, the department, in all fairness, I think is open to criticism for both what it has done and what it has failed to do.

And the Honourable the Attorney-General is one of those across the way here that likes to come up with a phrase, "Why wasn't it done when?" Well, I think he's the last one tn that front bench that can use that term, because if we look at what was done by the former government in the period of time that this one is in, we'd find out that we can rightfully say, in answer, what is being done now. And I'd just like to briefly go over the various branches of this department to compare what the two efforts were.

Now ln our Land Titles .Office we, in the last three years of our administration, we built a new addition to the Brandon Land Titles Office, which I think we were proud of, and I think the present government is proud of. Now what has this government done in the Land Titles Office field ? Outside of increasing the fees, nothing. And there was a very large increase, Mr. Chairman, in the fees. In many instances they were more than doubled. And the point is, March 15th, 1961 Page 867

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd. ) ••••• Mr. Chairman, that for the additional fees we have no im provement in service s. The services are no different than what they were. And T1d like to ask the Minister to tell us how much of the revenue received from the various Land Titles Of fices went into the Consolidated Fund of the province in -- give it to us for the years 158-'59 and 159-160 so we can compare the new set of fees with the old. Insofar as our courts are concerned, we, in that period of time extended the Juvenile Court facilities here in the City of Winnipeg. We added one juvenile court judge.

What has this government done? It has increased the fees payable in these various courts up to as much as 400 percent. And again I say, Mr. Chairman, there was no improvement in services. And at this stage I would like to say that I always felt, and still feel, that there are certain services of any government that should be given to their people at cost, that the government is there for service and not profit. And I suggest to you that it appears as if the present administration has put the stress on profit rather than service.

What about our liquor commissi on which is a very important branch of this department. During the former go\'ernment we brought in a complete revisi on of our liquor laws, which was not a si mple matter, and our laws have been adopted by many of the provinces in the Dominion. What has this government done? They increased the price of beer. I don't know what made them do so. We 've always talked about beer being the poor man's drink, and I think it was wrong increas ing the price at that time.

If all of this in crease had gone into the coffers of our treasury I wouldn't complain too much, but it is a known fact that the hotel industry received its share of the increase. And I don't think that was necessary. And I say it wasn't necessary, Mr. Chairman, because our hotels at that time , prior to that time, were changing hands because of the lucrative business that the hotels were doing. Now what about our institutions, our penal institutions ? Headingley- what was done by the former government in Headingley ? That institution was completely renovated.

The medical services were improved to the degree that I think they are still found satisfactory by this government. Our prison personnel was trained to the maximum allowable at Kingston. We had an in-training program. I hope that the department is still carrying on that training pro gram because I think it is all-import ant. What has been done by this government to ease the pressu re on this institution? They 've opened up the work camps that the Honourable the Minister has been talking to us about.

Now, insofar as detention quarters are concerned, I think one of the things we did do that makes it much easier to look after the Home for Girls today, ts the establishment of deten tion quarters for those girls that were held on remand and had not been comm itted, because it was this particular group that gave us all the difficulty in the old Home. In that regard, as far as I know, nothing has been done. We est ablished, or through our efforts we had the Federal Government est ablish, a parole office in Winnipeg.

I don't know whether any person nel has been added to this or not, but I do know that it does a very good service , and probably sometLme later in consideration of these est imates we'll go into what it means. We put in a full-time psychiatrist which is one of many parts of a rehabilitation service. What about after care agencies? We were one of the first provinces in the Dominion to est ablish a John Howard Society and an Elizabeth Fry Society. I would like to hear from the Minister as to what these societies are doing.

I notice there is an appropriation for them and we must have this type of after-care agency, Mr. Chairman. I think the saddest part about any offender is him com ing out of an institution and finding that he's not wanted and unable to get placed. And it is these two institutions, these two organizations, that are doing considerable work but could do consi- . derably more work with more ass istance.

And when we talk about probation and parole, I say that these two societies stand on equal footing, because the ·more offenders or the more dis charged offenders that they can look after and place properly, the less danger there is of a repeat, the sm aller wlll be our recidivism. Now, there is one -- and I'v e brought this up on other occas ions and I want to bring it up again, that this government has not seen fit to do anything about prevention of crime. I feel, Mr. Chairman, that is where we are falling down very, very badly.

We see that crime i<> on the increase all the time, and we're doing everything we can to cope with the increase in the number of offenders, but we're not doing anything to prevent crime, to prevent the number going into crime, and I think we're missi ng the biggest bet of all. It may be one of the hardest Page 868 March 15th, 1961

(Mr. Hry horczuk, cont' d. ) •••.• programs to establish, but at the same time I feel, Mr. Chairman, that we could save a great many of our youth from crime lf we had the commu nity properly organized to look after the needs of our youth, to see that their energies are directed in the right channels. I feel, Mr. Chairman, that we had the nucleus of such an organization here in the City of Winnipeg. For reasons known only to the government or the Honourable the Attorney-General, this particular phase of one of the most responsible programs has been en tirely forgotten and done away with.

I think it is a mistake • . I think we have so many voluntary agenc ies here in the City of Winnipeg that would give every assistance in establlshlng a suitable program, that I say again, Mr. Chairman, that I think it is only right and proper ln the best in terests of the people and the youth of this provin ce , that the Attorney-General change his think ing about this particular program and start all over again where he left off and have an organiza tion established here in the City of Winnipeg that would help our youth to have good habits instead of bad ones.

It is much easier to keep away from a bad habit than it is to break it after one has been formed. Again I say, Mr. Chairman, and I can't repeat this too often, that in my humble opinion, that is the most import ant portion of our fight against crime, and I would very strongly urge that the government reconsider its position in this con nection. MR. ORLIKOW: The Honourable Minister spent a good deal of his time giving in some detail the work being done in the Rehabilitation Camp, the new progress with regard to pro bation, and the work, the new development in the Manitoba Home for Girls.

These are all to be com mended, Mr. Chairman, but if one compares the speech which the Minister made today, with the speech, the enthusiasm, the hope which he expressed, let us say, in his speech two years ago, I must say that we can't help but be disappointed. And I think that if one looks at the estimates and realizes that there is practic any ·no incre ase, one will realize that enthusiasm which the Minister may have had two years ago and real desire to move ahead may have come up against a difficulty which he possibly had with the Provincial Treasurer in expanding programs which need to be expanded.

I want to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that one could hardly be the At torney-General or the Minister in charg e of this field in any province and not report some progress, if one realizes that in a survey made in the year 1950 -- I think by the United Nations -- Canada ranks 50th in the program of services provided in this field for offenders in the worlcl ; one can realize that we could hardly go anywhere but up, so that I really don't think that there's much credit comi ng to any government in any province or to any Federal Govern ment in the Domi nion of Canada in the 1960s for the progress which they made.

I want to potnt out to the members of this commi ttee, Mr. Chairman, the trerrnndous magnitude of the proble m which we face. In the year 1950, in England and Wale s, with a popu lation of 43 million, they sent less than 35, 000 people to prison, while in that year in Canada, with a population of just 14 ml llion, we sent over 98, 000 people to prison. The difference is, I think, not only vast, but it's quite simple to explain, when you realize that in 1950 in England and Wales they put 34, 000 people on probation while we were putting 3, 600 on probation in Canada.

And I think that the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains raises a very important criticism, and one which I trust the Minister wlll deal with, in the fact when he points out that the amount of money in the estimates for probation services has not increased for two years. And it was good to hear the Minister say that he was looktng forward to an expansion of this service . I suggest he wlll be somewhat of a miracle man if he can expand the services when he hasn't provided, ln the estimates, for an inc rease in staff. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I want to say something about the general principles which I feel ought to be followed in this field. For too long in this country -- and this is not a criticism of this government in this province, it's true of the country as a whole -- for too long the whole program of correction has been based on arresting those guilty of comm itting offences, of convicting them, and then of putting them into castody. This is applied, in the main, to both adults. as well as juvenile s.

There has been till very recen tly practically no attempt made to do more than put people into an institution and to keep them there for a period of time determined by the magistrate or the judge. It is only in recent years that we've even begun to talk about a correctional program that will get at the basic proble ms of the people who p;et into difficulty. I want to suggest, Mr. Chairman, and I was glad to hear the Honourable Member from Ethelbert Plains suggest, that possibly this department ought to be a part of a new Department of Welfa re.

This would be something along the line that they have in Saskatchewan. I was not March 15th, 1961 Page 869 -- -.

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd. ) ••••• even going to suggest that, Mr. Chairman, because I know how flat these suggestions fall in this House so often -- if Saskatchewan does it, well too often tn my opinion, if Saskatchewan does it, there's a tendency on the part of many members on both sides to say, "Well, we don't even want to think about it, and we're certainly not going to do it just because Saskatchewan has do!le it. " I was going-to make a much more modest suggestion, Mr. Chairman. I was going to suggest that the Diractor of Corrections should in fact, Mr.

Chair man, be elevated to the position of a Deputy Minister, who would have the status, the salary of a Deputy Minister, and who would report directly to the Attorney-General. I was going to suggest, Mr.

Chairman, further, that the Director of Corrections should not only have the title of a Deputy Minister but in fact he should be in charge of all the work of corrections, should be in a position of co-ordinating the work of the institutions , the custodial institutions , the cor rection institutions, with the probation services, with institutions like the Homes, and with the private and sem i-public agencies like the after-care agencies, like the John Howard Society, with the Children's Aid, with the Family Bureau, and so on, which do work in this field. Because, Mr.

Chairman, without this kind of co-ordination and without this kind of planning, I don't believe that we can get down to dealing with the root and cause of the difficulties and therefore come un with answe rs which will begin to cut down the rate of incarceration and begin to bring Canada into a situation sim ilar to countries such as Great Britain, which have pioneer ed in this field. I would like to suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that lt is time we gave cons ideration to what has been done in other jurisdictions to the establishment of a youth guidance authority, which would be able to review and decide upon matters such as crime and delinquency and the prevention, probation services to juveniles, juvenile parole, release from juvenile institutions, and stan dards of practice in juvenile correctional work.

I'm not suggesting that there isn't good work being done l:.y the juvenile probation department; one would expect that there would be good work done, it is so much better established and longer established in this province than the adult department that one would naturally expect them to do this, but I think there is room for a new approach through an authority. I would like to add a few words to whnt the Honourable Member for Ethelbert said with regard to prevention.

Prevention is certainly the first line of defence against crime and delin quency, and we need a service having this goal in mind which would plan and implement pro gram in conjuction with the schools, with the guidance clinic, with the family services and the law enforcement agencies. It should be , of course, offered to the juvenile and to their families on a voluntary basis, but it would offer to the public a service. It would provide res ponsible and expert information about the nature of crime, the treatment of offenders, and consultations to community on delinquency prevention and control. Mr.

Chairman, I am disappointed, bitterly disappointed, in the fact that the Minister has not indicated a rapid and sharp increase in probation service, The number of probation officers which we have in this province compares very unfavourably with the services being offered by such provinces as Ontario and British Columbia. I understand that the Province of Ontario now has 180 probation officers, and if you compare the population of this province with the Province of Ontario., any member will see that we are far behind them, and this doesn't mean that they have attained the optimum number, Mr.

Chairman, I use it only as an illustration. I understand that the Province of British Columbia has, at last count, according to the information which I received, 57 probation officers, and here again if you compare our population with the population of British Columbia, you see how far behind we are. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I'm at a loss to understand quite why this should be so in view of the fact that we had a very eloquent lecture from the Minister two years ago, and I can quote it but I don't think it's necessary; I'm sure he wlll remember it; two years ago he gave us a lecture, a very eloquent statement in whicq he pointed out that not only was this good for the people concerned, but he pointed out that to keep a person in one of the institutions like Headingley in the Province of Manitoba it costs about $1300 a year

whereas probation only costs about $65 a year. Now lt would seem to me that a government as interested in the dollars and cents and in good business administration as this government is, aside from the humanity which people like I like to think about, would be interested in expanding the probation services. I think it's good busin ess, and so I am bitterly disappointed that the Minister hasn't indicated an · increase in this department for this year. Page 870 March 15th, 1961

(Mr. Orllkow , cont'd. ) ••••• I'm bitterly disappolnted, Mr. Chairman, that in the Minister's estimates and the answers to questions which some of us tabled, the Minister indicated that j;],!ere ls no specific item for bursaries for training in this field. It seems to me, Jl.fr.

Chairman, that the Minister has to deal with the fact -- and this is true all across Canada -- that there 1s a shortage of trained people ln this field, and so in answer to another question as I remember it, and I could quote it in detail but I think the Minister will remember, of the roughly , 20 proba tion officers we have, ouly ten of them are re ally trained in. the field which probation services cover, and I think this is regretta ble, and it would seem to me that one of the easy ways, one of the ways which the Minister of Health is using so effe ctively in getting people trained in wel fare services is to provide in the estimates a relatively small amount for poss ibly training two people per year, giving them a bursary so that they can go on to university and take a training, on condition, naturally , that they come back to the department.

This is not in the estimates for this year. I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that I cons ider the salary rate for probation officers which is paid in the Province of Manitoba completely inadequate. It's very much below the rate paid in other provinces and I can at a later date supply the Minister with the rates paid in On tario and British Columbia. And when the salary rates are low for probation officers, Mr. Chairman, the results are obvious, just as obvious as they were when the salary rates offe red to teachers were too low.

When the salary rates offered to teachers were low, we had a large number of untraine d teachers; we had a large number of permit teachers, and just as soon as we raised the salary rates we began to get a decrease. Why?

Because we encouraged people who had the basic require ments, who had an education, a better than Grade XI, to go into teaching, and I want to suggest to the Minister that if we want to get the proper people as proba- - tlon officers -- and I think it's just as important to have well-trained, well-quallfied people as probation offi cers as it is to have competent engineers in building the highways or building the power sites in this province -- that we've got to pay enough to encourage people who wUl do a competent job to go into this field.

And I want to suggest to the Minister that this needs looking into, and needs looking into very shortly. Mr. Chair man, I believe that while we have made some very worthwhile steps in the right direction in the field of probation and parole , that we have a long way to go.

I think that the case load is much too large ; I think that the time which the probation officer can spend with the individual people is too small, and this can only result in people not getting the assistance and the very substantial assistance which they need in orde r to overcome the difficulties which any person who has a record carries in the community.

This is a concern, of course , to the people who are in this position, and it is a concern to the community as a whole • If the people who come out of our institutions, both juvenile and adults, do not get the assistance necessary; if they are not able to find their place, their proper place in the community; if the sentence which they have paid is not sufficient in the eyes of the community; if they are not able to find a job; if they are not able to find a place to live in; then natural ly they wlll have no alternative but to break the law again and to go back into one of our institutions, something which all of us I'm sure would not want to have happen again.

Mr .• Chairman, I am disturbed by an answer which we received to one of our questions, and I will try quickly to find it, but I'm sure the Minister wlll reme mber the question and the answer. I'm disturbed by the fact, Mr. Chairman , that-- here we are , it's on page 6 of Votes and Proceedings, No. 19. Pm concerne d by the fact, Mr. Chairman, that-- here 's the answer which the Minister -- I'll read the question which we asked first: How many juven- ile. offe nders both male and female are in adult gaols, Headingley and Portage la Prair ie, at the present time?

And here is the answer which the Minister gave: As at 22nd February , 1961, there were 22 male juveniles in Headingley Gaol and 9 female juveniles in the Gaol for Women at Port age la Prair ie. Well, Mr. Chairman, it would seem to me that this indicates a complete, either lack of understanding of the proble m which I don't belleve that the Direct or of Corrections has , or else a lack of facilities.

I want to say, and I'm not being critical, but I have met people, not as many as the Attorney- General I'm sure , but I have met mothers who had sons who were committed to Headingley and they all told me the same thing. "Anything my son didn't know when he went in about how to go wrong, he sure knew when he came out. " Now�what can we expect, Mr. Chairman, from a juvenile ? I would expect, and I thought that the whole intent of the legis lation which we have with regard to juvenlles; the whole purpose of having juvenlle cases heard March 15th, 1961 Page 871

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd. ) .•.•• in camera, away from the press, away from the public; the whole organi:zation for dealing with juveniles is such that they shall not get into difficulties the second . time. I want to suggest that when 22 juveniles at one time are in Headingley, that we have missed completely in our objective and in carrying out the purposes of trying to get people on the right track. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I want to make some very speci fic suggestions as to what I think needs to be done if our correctional program is to meet some of the objectives which have been so well expressed in other years , not this year unfortunately, in other years by the Attorney-General. First of all, Mr. Chairman, I think that this province ought to be provid ing training grants for social work students who are seeking careers in the correction field.

I'm going to be very conservative, very cautious, because poss ible if I make a concrete sug gestion the Minister will take it seriously and go back to what I suggested a little earlier, that there ought to be at least two provisions for two grants for two bursaries in this field. These should be ma de available , Mr. Chairman, to students on the basis of interest and merit, re gardless of their particular spec ialty interest in this field, parole, after care, institutions, work with juveniles or adults.

Corectional staff, who are provincial employees, should be entitled to these grants through the provision of educational leave without a complete loss of pay. Private agencies and institutions operating in the correctional field should be encouraged to make simi lar concess ions to their em ployees in the matter of educational leave , with pay, so that they can make the best use of their training grants. The amount of the training grant and educational leave should be in relation to the length of study required; and a differential in the amount granted to single and married students. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to suggest that we need to get on with the job of phys ical segregation in the gaols of the young and first offenders from those recidivists who are not amenable to rehabilitation at the present time. There should be a greater diversification in all institutions, both juvenile and adult, as to their function and program. I would like to suggest to the Attorney-Gene ral, Mr. Chairman, there should be establishment of a correctional facility in the northern part of the province for men and women offenders. And when J say correctional facility, Mr.

Chairman, I don't just mea n a gaol which is, in essence, a custodial and a punitive institution. In my opinion, that is all that we have at the present time. I would thlnk, Mr. Chairman, that spec ial consideration and study should be given to deallng with Indian and Metis children in their removal from homes to institutions, and the problem this creates when they are returned to their home after being in the institution. Mr. Chairman, I think it is disgraceful that we have had practically no development of a real correctional program for women offenders in the Portage gaol.

Special attention should be given to temporary accomm odation of people com ing out of this particular gaol who require the use of a facllity before they become re-est abllshed, and until the after-care agency can work with them. This ·i s also' required for men. I think all of us realize that a man who is discharged from Headingley and given $1. 00, and possibly a ticket to his home or else to the place from which he was sentenced, is hardly the way to encourage a person to get started so that he won't get into difficulties at all. Mr.

Chairman, I think that a profess ionally qualified staff in the discipllnes of social work psychology and education need to be engaged to form rehabllitation teams to work with the non-profess ional staff in all our institutions. I'm glad that we've begun some program of psychiatric services on a consultative nature, but in relation to what is needed and what has been requested, and I will come to this in a few moments, Mr. Chairman, by a group which has studied this problem; we really can't say we h"-ve done more than scratched the surface. Surely, Mr.

Chairman, it is time that we had a proper class lfi- . cation system in both our juvenile and adult institutions. This is being done in other jurisdic tions and it has been requested in this province and to date; to my knowledge, we still have not the staff properly trained in this field to do the job·w hich is required. Mr. Chairman, we need to introduce a vast training course for all staff, which would be designed to acquaint them with the philosophy of rehabllitation and appropriately organized in content for the needs of the staff in both the juvenile and adult institutions.

Now the Minister has mentioned the fact, and I think that the Adult Education Department of the University is to be comme nded for the program wt>.lch they have begun, but the number of our staff in the correctional institutions which have attended this course is very sma ll. In comparison with what is be ing done in other Page 872 March 15th, 1961

(Mr. Orlikow, cont' d.) .. .•• province s, and I want to spend a few moments tellin£; this com mittee what is being done in other province s, 1\Ir. Chairman, ·w e are not even, in my opinion , scratching the surface. Now , Mr. Chairman , these are some of the things which I think ought to be done . I want , Mr. Chairman, to refer relatively briefly to a report which was ma de to the Wel fare Council of Greater Winnipeg in 1955 , a report called Services for Juvenile and Adult .Offenders. A committee headed by Mr. G.R.

Hunter, a very well known and I think a very competent lawyer in this city , a comm ittee which represented all segments of the community which are interested in the problems of corrections and of offenders , ma de a report , Mr . Chair man. It is now six years ago . Now the Minister may feel I'm unfair because I'm only going to quote the parts of the report which , in my opinion, have not yet been im plemented; and I'm sure the Minister can come back and say, read the parts of the report which have been imple mented. I don't think however, Mr.

Chair man, that I'm being unfair because I think that credit is due to this government and to the former government for the very safe beginnings which have been made . But I am concerned, Mr. Chairman, about the tremendous gap which stlll exists between what we are doing and what this commi ttee, and I think a very competent commi ttee, recom mended almost six years ago. I want to read into the record and quote briefly from what they say. In the field of probations , Mr.

Chairman, here 's part of what they say:" It is recommended that the duties of probation officers include the preparation of pre-sentence reports for the sentencing magistrate and supervision of offenders during the probationary period. " If I can digress for a moment, Mr. Chairman, I commend the Minister and his depart ment on the fact that we had more pre-sentence reports last year than ever before; but I want to suggest to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, and to this commi ttee, that in many jurisdictions it is mandatory that there be a pre-sentence report to the court for every prisoner.

This is true in many juris ictions --the Minister shakes his head --I'm sure we won't finish today, so that if he questions what I say I'm sure that I can bring lllustrat!ons of this fact if not in Canada , certainly in other jurisdictions. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, only insofar as the province could make it madatory could it be done, realizi ng that in federal cases it would have to be passed in the Crim inal Code. MR. ORLIKOW: I realize that, Mr. Chairman, and I would hope that the Minister would use his influence with the federal department to get on with this job which I think is very im portant.

Now further this report says: "It is recommen ded that probation pre-sentence reports contain information on the offenders personality, family, em ployment record, police record, and all other factors which may have affected the offender's behaviour.

That the case be dis cussed in camera between the judge and the probation officer after conviction and before sen tence, and all reports be treated as confidential and not used as evidence at court hearings ." It recommen ded that supervision during the probationary period include case work with the offender and hls famlly, assist ance with emp loyment and budgetary problems, etc. etc. Well Mr. Chairman, we have made a beginning on probation but I think that one needs only to think about this statement to realize how far we have to go before we achieve this objective.

Now with regard to psychiatr ic facULtie s, here's what the com mittee reports: "That a full time psychiatrist and psychologist and the necessary supp orting staff be attached to the division of corrections , whose services would be shared among the correctional institutions and the juvenil e cour ts. That the duties of the psychiatr ist should include consultations with probation officers and staff of correctional institutions on the diagnosis and dispos ition of cases, psychotherapy and assist ing in classi fying all offenders comm itted to provincial institutio ns.

That the psychologist" --and if I interject for a moment, I'm pretty certain we haven't got a psychologist on the staff although we have a psychiatr ist, I understand --(Interjection) -- we have a part time psychologist? Well, that's a beginning at least, Mr. Chairman. I quote again , "T hat the psychologist be resp onsible for administeri ng the intelligence, vocational aptitude and other psychological tests,a nd that they work under the dlrection of the psychiatri st. " Well we have a part-tlme psychologist and he certainly can't do the job which lR su!l"gested in thls report.

Classl fication - here 's what they say, and I quote: "Two class lflcatlon centres, one for juveniles and the other for adults , be established to which all convicted and sentenced offenders be sent prior to placement in the institutio ns . That a team cons isting of a psychiatr ist March 15th, 1961 Page 873

(Mr. Orlikow, cont1d. ) ••••• and a psychologist, a clergyman, a social worker and a vocational counsellor, classi fy each offender according to his attitude, intelligence, ablllty to learn, and kind of problem; and assess his potential for rehabllltation and recommend same. " Well, Mr. Chairman, Pm certain that we hav en't got that kind of system in this province, although other provinces are doing it.

Now with regard to the institutions , I want to read just several short paragraphs and I quote again: "T hat for those adult male off enders of average or above average intelligence who are sentenced to gaol and who would benefit from trade training, an open training school be developed with adequate faclllties for recreation and providing qualified supervised teachers and trained staff who would instruct in craft trade, far ming and wood training in elementary and high school. " I want to emphasize , Mr.

Chairman, that I think it's essential that the kind of program of �ducation which the Minister reported we now have in the Manitoba Home for Boys is essential, and just as important in the Headingley Gaol because the people who are there are. to a large extent, people who have not completed their education. They are going to have the same diffic ulty in getting a job which other people who hav en't -- or more difficulty than other people who hav en't completed the ir education. Surely there is room in an institution as large as Headingley, with the large number of inmates, to have a school program.

Even realizing the fact that the inmatAs are not the re for more than a short time, but even these can, in a short time, devote their time much better to improving the ir education than to what they are now doing.

Now I quote furthe r: "That a complete trades course under competent instructors be of fe red inmates of the Manitoba Gaol for Women; that the program include training in hairdress ing, dressmaking, typing and cooking; and that a wide range of recreational activities be provided us ing volunteer groups co-ordinated by an employed recreation director." Further with regard to institutional staff they said, "T hat short courses in correctional work be given guards, trade instructors, teachers, house parents and other institutional staff.

That courses be given on a regular basis by qualified persons and that the curriculum include administration of correction al institutions , improved correctional programs, disc ipline, human behaviour and staff team work. That arrangements be made with the Department of Justice for guards of provinc ial penal. institutions to attend Kingston _1'enitent1ary Staff College for additional trainin g. " Well this has been done to some extent. The last

section that I wtll read, and I think it's important, "T hat salaries of institutional staff be revised and that staff be paid according to the ir training, experience and responsiblllty. " Well, Mr. Chairman, to read th is report and to think about what we have done, is to realize how far we still have to go. Mr. Chairman , I want to suggest to the Minister and to the members of this committee, th at what I'm suggesting is already being done in other parts of this country. As I said earlier, members of this House tend to, on occasions, to scoff at what has been done in Saskatchewan.

I took the trouble this year, Mr. Chairman, to send identical letters, asking about the program which is being followed, to the Ministers responsible for this type of activity in the provinces of Ontario, British Columbia and Saskatch ewan. Mr. Chair man, I want to read, because I think it would be only fair to the Minister to read the letter which I wrote to these people -- it won't take too long -- and to read parts of th eir answers. I'll be very glad, Mr.

Chai rman, to table with th is committee or to give to the Minister copies of the letters which I received so that we can see how far behind we are in this province MR. CHAIRMAN: Only three minutes left. MR. ORLIKOW: Well, Mr. Chai rman, I'm in your hands •. If you want me to leave this until we get to the item, it's just as easy to go on with it then. MR. CHAIRMAN: You have th ree minutes. MR. ORLIKOW: All right, .Mr. Chairman, here is the letter which I wrote to the Honourable M. G. Wardrop, Minister of Ref orms and Institutions in Toronto.

"Dear Sir: would like very much to compare the program of corrections and probation for some of the pro vinces in Canada. I would appreciate it very much lf you could send me the Annual Report covering the last published year fo r your province dealing with th is subject. I'm particularly interested in such questions as the following:

(1) The job description of every treatment posi tion in the institutions .

(2) A copy of the revised training courses •

(3) A description of the Correctional Program.

(4) Conditions for staff training: (

a) Is this training compulsory? (

b) what are the rewardsfor taking training? (c\ Is it possible to be promoted lf courses are not Page 874 March 15th, 1961

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd. ) •..• • taken? (

d) Are there lectures and examinations? (

e) What provi sions are made for those who are required to take courses on their off days? Are they paid "br given compensating time off? I would also like to know how many probation officers there are in your province for both adults and juveniles; what qualifications are required for probation officers; and what are the salary ranges for these positions." � Well, Mr� Chairman, I received a reply from the Minister in Ontario and I want to read just two paragraphs from his letter. As I said, the Minister is welcome to copies of this letter.

"Our treatment personnel consist of psychologists, social workers, psychiatrists, teachers, chaplains , dentists, medical officers, and parole and rehabilitation officers." There's a vast difference between that and what we have in this province. Next paragraph he says, Mr. Chairman, and I quote: "You have asked for certain conditions of staff training. In my depart ment, staff training is compulsory for all custodial officers.

You wlll note from the syllabus of the training course enclosed that this is a six-weeks course, and every custodial officer must qualify on this course at the end of three months1 service, otherwise he is discharged. Cus todial personnel are not promoted until they have successfully completed the course. Those attending the course are given their regular salary and are provided with board and lodging while on the course. We have a special staff training school which is located on the grounds of the Ontario Reformatory at Guelph.

As well as courses for custodial officers, we have short seminars each year for trades and professional people. For example, we have just completed a one-week seminar for the chefs of the various institutions in this department. Other semi nars held during the year have been for social workers and psychologists. " Mr. Chairman, I received a letter from the Director of Probation Services in the Pro vince of Ontario in response to the same letter in which he says, and I quote: "There are at present 180 probation officers in Ontario.

Of these , 142 are employed by the province and 38 by the municipalities." The salaries range, Mr. Chairman, from $4, 050 to $5, 000 for what they call Group I and from $5, 000 to $6,0 00 for Group II. "The basic minimum qualification required is senior matriculation plus at least seven years1 experience in one of the allied fields of social work or university graduation. " So here again, Mr. Chairman, I think members can see the tremendous difference between what we have done and what they are doing in that pro vince. I have here, Mr.

Chairman, a statement, and it's a le ngthy one, from the Corrections Branch in British Columbia and I want to quote from it, and again I wlll make it available to the Minister: "Policy - It is the policy of the Director of Corrections that all staff of the Corrections Branch shall participate in a continuous program of in-service training. The training courses offered are designed to present the knowledge and skills which correctional staffs must exercise to carry out an effective program of treatment and custody of inmates.

Staff development to in-service training is one of the critical features of a successful program and must be continually emphasized. " Further, they say, "Training of personnel may be done either on Correction B'anch time or on the employee's own time. Time, in lieu, is to be granted for all training done on the employee1s time. Personnel In-Service Training Program - This is required of all new employees and orientation schedules are to be developed at all institutions to fit the particular needs of a new staff member in the institution. " Mr. Chairman, I could go on for some considerable time.

I want to just read, Mr. Chairman, at this time, just one more paragraph to deal with what they1re doing in the province .••• MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, on a point of Order, I think you of course, Sir, are per fectly right that the rules of debate do limit speeches here as they do in the House. Neverthe less, there is the rule also that in committee we may speak as often as we like or by consent of the committee.

I should think in this case it might be convenient for the honourable member to complete what would be a well-rounded or well-prepared statement that has a good deal of work behind it, and the Attorney-General has indicated he would be very agreeable to have it go on if it meets with your wishes , Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: Agreed. MR. ORLIKOW: Mr.

Chairman, I just want to conclude by reading from a letter which I received from the Minister of Social Welfare and Rehabllltation in the Province of Saskatchewan, which would indicate what their program is, and I quote: "Your question with regard to staff training requires a fuller answer than listed in the review" -- which he sent me --" and I offer March 15th, 1961 Page 875

(Mr. Orlikow, cont1d. ) ••••. the following information. Accor ding to the agreement between the Government of the Province of Saskatchewan and the Saskatchewan Civil Service Assoc iation, ·thts training is compulsory and a condition of employment. The conditions specify that a person coming on staff and undertaking the first year of training must successfully complete the required examinations at the end of the year of training or be se parated from employment. In the first year there is no second chance.

In the sec ond or third year of training, if a staff member fails in his first attempt at the examination, he is allowed another try. If he fails the second time, he is separated from employment. On completion of the third year of the course, a certificate in Correctional Work is given to the successf ul candidate and, in accordance with the agreement, they are credited with a $20 increase in pay. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I want just to conclude by reading to the members, in case they haven't read some of the questions and answers which we have asked and which the Minister has answered, which would indicate how far from these three provinces we are in Manitoba. With reference -- and this will be found in No. 20 of Votes and Proceedings. On pages 5 and 6, we asked the question -- on page 6 -.J•What is the number of staff of this institution" -- that is the Portage Gaol for Women -- "as of December 31st, 1960 ?" The answer is "17" .

The next question: "How many of the staff are trained social workers or teachers or trained in correctional procedures?" And the answer, Mr. Chairman: "The Superintendent is a graduate soc ial worker and three staff members have completed the twelve-week course on corrections jointly sponsored by the Department of University Extension and Adult Education and the A�n ey-General1s Department." Well, let's just look at that, Mr. Chairman. The superin tendent is a soc ial worker. I accept that therefore she is qualified. Three of the other six teen people have had one night a week for twelve weeks.

This is better than we did before but it is not very much in comparison to what they're doing in the other provinces. But 13 others, Mr. Chairman, I assume have had absolutel y no training at all. In the Votes and Proceedings of the day before, No. 19, Page 4: "Did any employees in the Correctional Institutions get in service training in 19 60?" The answer is "yes.

" "If so, how many and what type of training?" Answer: "Four guard officers attended a six-week Penitentiary Officers Training Course at Kingston Staff College,." And further, "24 custodial officers attended one night a week, a twelve-week course on corrections," etcetera. Now, Mr. Chairman, I could go on but I think that I have demonstrated, I think conclu si vely, that the high hopes, which I for one held when I first heard the Minister make his statement several years ago, were to say the least premature.

Whether he himself doesn't believe in the need or whether he has had difficulties with the Honourable Provincial Treasurer, and I for one don't know which is the answer, but whatever the reasons are, I must say, Mr; Chairman, that what looked like a good beginning has, to a large extent, petered out. I am told, if it's any consolation to the Minister, that this is precisely what happened with the for mer Minister. He also --(Interjection) -- well, I pass this along for what it's worth.

He also started off in the same way with very enthusiastic speec hes, with very brave words, but the actions which followed in the years later were not so. MR . HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, on a point qf privilege , that just isn't true. The honourable member just heard what was accomplished by the former government. How could he come out and say that the same thing was true of the former government as it is of this one? That just isn 1t right. MR. ORLIKOW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I said I have heard. I could only hear because I wasn't · here.

I was told this by members who were in the House at that time, who, in my opinion, are competent. It may be that the present Minister may take my criticism and suggestions ln the same light and wlth the same assessm ent as the former Minister has. That wlll, I hope, not be so and it will be unfortunate. But, Mr. Chairman, I want to conclude by saying that I think that this is a field in which Canada has lagged lamentably, with harm to those people who get into difficulties and with harm to the community as a whole. I must say, Mr.

Chairman, that while I am glad to hear the Minister report some progress, I for one, and I think I speak for all members of this group, are bitterly disappointed at the rate of progress which he proposes for the coming year. Page 87� March 15th, 1961

MR . CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Selkirk. MR . HILLHOUSE: Mr. Chairman , it's unfortunate that a matter so important as the ad ministration of justice has to be debated and threshed out in a political forum, but we are a democratic province and this is the only place where we can debate such matters. I believe when the Honourable the Attorney-General was sworn into the Cabinet as Attorney-General that he was the right man for the right job. I still think that he is , but I do think that he has been let down by his Cabinet.

I do think that crime is one of the greatest social and welfare problems with which we are faced today, and that his department is entitled to as much money in dealing with that problem as the Department of Health and Public Welfare is entitled to in dealing with the problem of welfare. Without that money, it would be impossible for any Minister to carry out the program which he announced when he fir st took office, and in respect of which he had such high hopes.

I think that if a theme song is ever dedicated to the Minister it should be entitled: "I Had High Hopes." Now I think one of the biggest problems we have today in the realm of crime is the growth in juvenile crime. At one time in Manitoba we could look upon juvenile crime more in the nat ure of misdemeanors, but today, juvenile crime is expanding into the field of indictable offences and the problem is how are we going to deal with it.

Fortunately in Manitoba, our Chief Probation Officer is a man of courage; he is a man of intelligence; and he's a man who possess es vision, if that is not a bad word to use in this Chamber. Recently at Portage la Prairie, in addressing a meeting of the Central Judicial Branch of the Manitoba Bar Association, he made certain suggestions. Among these suggestions were -- and I would ask the Honourable Minis ter when he rises to reply to the various members what his reaction as Chief Law Officer of the Crown is towards these suggestions. Mr .

Halliday is reported in the March 13th, 1961 issue of the Manitoba Free Press, under the by-line of Bob Noble who is a qualified and exper ienced court reporter, as having said: ''I am convinced that the complete answer to the delinquency and criminal problem does not lie in the Child Guidance Clinics nor on the psychi atric couch, nor will it be found in the psychology books or with the armies of social workers and probation officers. For the professional correction worker to try and sell this idea to the public is not only unfortunate for the offenders, it is downright dishonest. ,., Mr.

Halliday then listed these major points which he suggested should be given consideration for future planning in the correctional field. One was the establishment in Manitoba of a Borstal type of in.stitution. I would like to know what steps the Honourable the Attorney-General is taking towards establi shing that institution. Another was that he believed that the admittance of the press to juvenile courts would make the public aware of the problems without publication of the names of the juvenile offenders.

Now I believe that under our Juvenile Delinquency Act there is no prohibi tion against the press being present at a juvenile court, and I would suggest that the Honourable the Attorney-General let us have his views on that suggestion as I feel that there is merit in it. Now another suggestion which the Ch ief Probation Officer made was that the age limit for juvenile offenders in Manitoba should be reduced from 18 to 16 . I would like to hear the views of the Attorney-General on that particular point.

I would also like to know, if it is within the Attorney-General's knowledge, whether that recommendation was made due to the fact that we did not have the proper institutions in Manitoba in which to place these offenders. I would also like to know from the Attorney-General whether or no any recommendations were made to him arising out of the last Magistrate's Conference on this Cluestion. Now Mr . Halliday went on to state that the Unemployment Insurance Commission should establish a Youth Employment Branch to arrange more technical training for those between 16 and 21 years of age .

Another suggestion which he makes, which I think is worthy of consideration by this government, and that is this, the establishment of detention centres to which youngsters could be sent for the short, sharp, shock treatment proving so successful in other countries; where they would be subjected to a rigid discipline for no more or no less than three months with a definite work program. Now the last suggestion he made was that a careful study should be made of the methods of recruiting personnel to the field of correction and social work.

Now I can't speak too highly of the work that is being done by the probation officers that we have in this province today. We were fortunate in the Town of Selkirk in having as our probation officer Hugh Richards ; and I wish to assure this committee and the Attorney-General that the pre-sentencti reports that he furnishes to court and defence counsel and the crown prosecutor are absolutely March 15th, 1961 Page 877

(Mr. Hillhouse , cont'd. ) ••••• invaluable, particularly when you're dealing with a juvenile offen der. I don't know exactly what the role of a defence counsel is when he 's defending a juvenile ·offender, but I have always taken the -viewpoint that my attitude towards him should be one of not having him escape liability if he was liable, but more of trying to put him on the ri ght track.

I've always felt that if a juvenile defender does, through some technicality, es cape liability that it's only building up within him a disrespect of the law, and those pre-se ntence reports that you do receive from these probation officers are of considerable help in giving you the background of the offender and what steps should be taken to try and remedy the course of action which that offender is following. There's another matter that I'd like to raise , Mr. Chairman, and that is this , that I believe the Attorney-General has had considerable difficulty in the matter of personnel in his own department.

I believe that the num

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-3-24
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 3rd hansardpdf 24.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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