Manitoba Hansard — 4 June 1975 (Sitting 112, 30th Legislature, 2nd Session)

30-2-112

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXll No. 112 2:30 p.m., Wednesday, June 4th, 1975. Second Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans - Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Postal Affiliation Code ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt P.C. Reston, Man. ROM 1XO ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Roblin Pl., Winnipeg R3J 3La BIRTLE-RUSSELL Harry E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Man. ROJ OOO BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova BRANDON WEST Edward McGill P.C. 222a Princess Ave., Brandon R7B OH9 BURROWS Hon. Ben Hanuschak NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova CHAR LESWOOD Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg R3R 1L5 CHURCHILL Les Osland NOP 66 Radisson Blvd., Churchill ROB OEO CRESCENTWOOD Vacant DAUPHIN Hon.

Peter Burtniak NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ELMWOOD Hon. Russell J. Doern NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova EMERSON Steve Derewianc:huk NOP Vita, Manitoba ROA 2KO FLIN FLON Thomas Barrow NOP Cranberry Portage, Man. ROB OHO FORT GARRY L.R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. a6 Niagara St., Winnipeg R3N OT9 FORT ROUGE Lloyd Axworthy Lib. 132 Osborne St. S., Winnipeg R3L 1Y5 GIMLI John C. Gottfried NOP 44 - 3rd Ave., Gimli, Man. ROC 1BO GLADSTONE James R. Ferguson P.C. Gladstone, Man. ROJ OTO INKSTER Hon. Sidney Green, O.C. NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova KILDONAN Hon.

Peter Fox NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova LAKESIDE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Man. ROC 3HO LA VERENDRYE Bob Banrnan P.C. Steinbach, Man. ROA 2AO LOGAN William Jenkins NOP 1294 Erin St., Winnipeg R3E 2S6 MINNEDOSA David Blake P.C. Minnedosa, Man. ROJ 1EO MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Morris, Man. ROG 1KO OSBORNE Hon. Ian Turnbull NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova PEMBINA George Henderson P.C. Manitou, Man. ROG 1GO POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski NOP 23 Coralberry Ave., Winnipeg R2V 2P2 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E.

Johnston Lib. 26-120 - 6th St., S.E .. Portage la Prairie, Man. R1N 1Ea RADISSON Harry Shafransky NOP 4 Maplehurst Rd., Winnipeg R2J 1Wa RHINELAND Arnold Brown P.C. Winkler, Man. ROG 2XO RIEL Donald W. Craik P.C. 3 River Lane, Winnipeg R2M 3Ya RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, O.C. P.C. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie P.C. Inglis, Man. ROJ OXO ROCK LAKE Henry J. Einarson P.C. Glenboro, Man. ROK OXO ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova RUPERTSLAND Hon. Harvey Bostrom NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ST. BONIFACE Hon. L.L.

Desjardins NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ST. GEORGE Hon. Bill Uruski NOP 10th fir., 330 Portage Ave., Wpg. R3C OC4 ST. JAMES George Minaker P.C. 318 Ronald St., Winnipeg R3J 3Ja ST. JOHNS Saul Cherniack, 0.C. NOP 333 St. Johns Ave., Winnipeg R2W 1H2 ST. MATIHEWS Wally Johannson NOP 41a Home St., Winnipeg R3G 1X4 ST. VITAL D.J. Walding NOP 26 Hemlock Place, Winnipeg R2H 1L7 STE. ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam NOP Ste. Rose du Lac, Man. ROL 1SO SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A.

Miller NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova SOUR IS KILLARNEY Earl McKellar P.C. Nesbitt, Man. ROK 1PO SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova STURGEON CREEK J. Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg R3J 2G3 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton P.C. Swan River, Man. ROL 1ZO THE PAS Hon. Ron McBryde NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova THOMPSON Ken Dillen NOP 84 Pintail Cres., Thompson RaN 1A6 TRANSCONA Hon. Russell Paulley NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova VIRDEN Morris McGregor P.C. Kenton, Man. ROM OZO WELLINGTON Philip M.

Petursson NOP 681 Banning St., Winnipeg RJG 2G3 WINNIPEG CENTRE Hon. J.R. (Bud) Boyce NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova WOLSELEY Vacant

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, June 4, 1975 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION O_f GU]:§JJ?. 3477 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proc eed, I should like to direct the attention of the honour able members to the gallery where we have 36 students Gra de 5 and 6 standing, of the Duk:e of Marlborough School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Wiebe and Mrs. Aromanchuk. This school is located in the constituency of the Honoura ble Member for Churchill. And we have 20 students, Gra de 9 standing, of the Edmund Partridge Junior High School under the direction of Mr .

Chodirker. This school is located in the constituency of the Hon ourable Member for Seven Oaks, the Minister of Urban Affairs. And 25 students, Grade 4 and 5 standing, of the Robertson School undor the direction of Mrs. Yellowea. This school is located in the constituency of the Honoura ble Member for Inkster, the Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management. On behalf of all the honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Pre senting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; The Honourable Minister of Mines. MINISTERIAL STA TEMENT HON . SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Manage ment) (lnkster) : Mr. Speaker, I would assume that the Law Amendments Committee will not finish whatever is referred to it today, and if I'm correct in that assumption, then I'm propos ing that Law Amendments Committee will meet again on Frida y evening at 8 :00 o'clock. MR.

SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Questions. The Honoura ble Member for Morris. ORAL QUESTIONS MR, WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question, I believe, to the Minister of Mines, Resources and Envi.ronmental Matters, and ask him if the governm ent intends to do anything about the serious caterpillar infestation in the Lac du Bonnet area - if there is going to be some spraying in order to control the infestation that is cur rently taking place there ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR .

GREEN: Mr. Speaker, Id) believe that spraying for insects is something that is controlled by local administrations, and that some administr ations have applied for licenses to spray, others have not. Now, there also have been some discussions with the Department of Agriculture in the Interlake I know last year - and I don 't know whether there was also an agri cultural program. But with regard to spr aying for insect control, I do believe that that is a matter that which is within the jurisdiction of the local administr ation and they are the ones who make an application as to whether they want to do it or not.

MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that there is some difficulty in getting a response from the Environme ntal Commission, that there seems to be some delays in the applications in the light of present environmental standards, and the reports that I get are that the govern ment does have the right by order -in-council to give that kind of direction - and I wonder if the gove rnment had been consider ing that particular problem. MR. GREEN: To my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, it has not been brought to my attention.

The government does by order -in-council handle appeals from the Clean Environment Com mission. I know of no application and 1.0 appeal, but I will certainly look into it for the honour able member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye . MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister of Agriculture, and ask him if he could tell the House when the Manitoba Milk Producers Marke ting Board will be holding their elections for these boards. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agric ulture. HON .

SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet) : Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm

3478 June 4, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. USKIW cont'd) .... not in a position to indicate the timetable. I know that there are provisions in the legislation for that to occur, but as in all boards, provisi onal boards, there's a certain time period during which it is felt that it's neces sary to have the plan established and working well before one attempts to introduce a new dimension. MR . BANMAN : A further supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether or not the Manitoba Milk Producers Marketing Board has in deed made out a sched ule of elected board members to that board. MR . USKIW : Mr. Speaker, they may have, although I'm not aware of it at the present time. That is something that they have the right to recommend on and we will proceed in a normal way. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for As siniboia. MR . STEVE PATRICK (As siniboia) : Mr. Speaker, I have a question fo r the Acting Minister of Health.

Will the Minister or the government be bringing in legislation during this sessi on to adjust the Manitoba supplement for the aged, to take into considera tion the legislation that was passed through the House of Commons where 60 year old spouses of pensioners will now be receiving Old Age Security. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister for Urban Affairs) (Seven Oaks) : Mr. Speaker, I believe that can be done by regulation, but there 's nothing pending on that immediately. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary .

Will the Minister or the government be giving this favoura ble considera tion ? MR. MILLER : Mr. Speaker, the government's always giving things favoura ble consid eration s. MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Ros smere) : Mr. SpE>aker, the Honourable Mem ber for Brandon West will recall asking last week, I think it was, as to the tabling of the corres pondence between Canada and Manitoba with respect to the high voltage direct current equipment ordered.

I indicated at the time, that on his say-so and upon checking Federa l Hansard, that the Minist er's reply in the House of Commons would be taken as definitive in dication of federal concurrence in the tabling of the correspondence. I also indicated that we would check further and upon doing so - it was a good thing we did, because we have been re quested to withhold for another few days the tabling of the corre spondence pending further checking of the file by officials of Canada . So I suspect that next week, if not later this week, we may be in a position to table the said corre sponde nce.

While I'm on my feet, sir, I'd like to, in reply to the Honourable Member for Lakeside, indica te that upon checking that there was one person who was campaigning in the Province of Saskatchewan. And as I indica ted, I fully expected that such a person would be either on leave or absence without pay or on one 's own time - there has been one person , and that person has been on his or her own time. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr . Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Consu mer Affairs.

I wonder if the Minister could indica te to the House, is the 75 cents monthly increase in the reside ntial natural gas that was approved by the Public Utility Board, was that an interim price increase or was that a final price increase for this year ? MR. SPEAK ER : The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. HON . IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Service s)(Os borne) : Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR . BANMAN : Mr.

Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister in charge of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commissi on and would ask him, in light of the Manitoba Liquor Control Chairman's statements yesterday about the increased price of beer bottles from 2 cents to 5 cents, I wonder if the Minister could inform the House that the government will not be acting on a resolution passed unanimously by the House severs.l weeks ago asking for that increase. MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General)( Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, that would be a question pertaining to policy - such an announcement would be made in proper course.

June 4, 1975 3479 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Order of the Day. The Honoura ble House Leader. ORDERS OF THE DAY -Q. OV�RNMENT �ILLS MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you'd now proceed to call the Adjourned Debates on Second Readings of those Bills standing on the Order Paper in the order in which they appear. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Bill No. 29, the Honoura ble Member . . . Bill No. 41, the Honoura ble Member for Roblin. BIL�NO. 41 - MOJ'i_i:;Ys FOR CAPITAL PUR POSES OF MT� MR . J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin) : Well, Mr . Speaker, I apologize for delaying speaking on this bill.

I haven't got the Hansard of the comments of the other honourable mem bers who spoke on the subject matter yesterday, but I waited until today's issue of the press was available and I'm prepared now to comment. Mr. Speaker, I find this bill, which further centralizes the Manitoba Telephone System by establishing a Data Processing Centre, concerns me, and has caused some anxiety in our group - and I will spell the reasons out in my comments and raise the questions. I have had some experience with centralization of governm ent services over the years, and in many cases it hasn't worked out that well.

I can recite incidences of the Manitoba Teleuhone System and further centralization of the services, where it took days to get a telephone hooked up. But in this case, Mr. Speaker, I'm wondering with regards to this bill and the $10 million that's re quested by the Minister, if in fact he's considering borrowing those moneys from the MDC. The other thing I'm wondering in the legislation that's before us, Mr.

Speaker, is - the Minister said that he's replacing a number of small and medium sized computers with one, two or more large machines, and of course a new building is involved - I wonder why the Honour able Minister couldn't be more specific in the legislation that's before us and tell us if in fact he's intending one, two or more; and if in fact when this more - is it five or six? And what size is this computer centre going to achieve, what type of a . . . ?

Because if he's going into that magnitude of computer services in this province, I become very concerned, like the Hon ourable Member from Fort Rouge who spoke yesterday, and can see this monstro sity of govern ment interfering in the priv acy of people becoming a very serious matter. I hope the Minister will spell out to the House what intentions he has regarding the number of machines and give us a more full explanation. The other thing that I can't find, Mr.

Speaker, with regards to this computer centre, is some evidence to prove the feasibility and the need for that type of a centre in this province who are basically only a million people. And, Mr. Speaker, in the Telecommunic ation Service, if the Minister maybe has the evidence - I have come across evidence which indicates that the CNR and CP Telecommunication Service, which is a computer service, have cut back consid erably in their service; they've cut their staff, I understand, from 18 - I think they had 18 or 20 approximately in their staff, it's now reduced to three or four.

It's possible that maybe they are giving that work out to others, but I certainly would wonder at this stage if they are cutting back, why the Minister indicates that he's going to go with a fairly substantial com muter centre in this provi nce. I'm also wondering, Mr. Speaker, if the private business sector of the prov ince, and Canada in fact, have discussed this processing facility with the Minister and the governm ent.

And if so, if those meetings have been held, I wonder can he advise me and the Members of the Ho use what contra cts that he has in his pocket today or what contr acts he has in his depart ment from the priva te sector. Because he indicates in his comments that he'll be accepting work from outside of the department, and I wonder now has he any evidence to show us that he's already negotiating for some of this work, and has he some indication from the business com munity that they're going to be utilizing the service. The other thing of course, Mr. Speaker, is how far are we prepared to go.

In the com ments it's mentioned here, I believe, that it's used by all the departments except Ed·Jcation and Health, and I wonder in his comments if he would give us more informa tion of what is the intent and how far is the Telephone System prepared to go with the centralization of this com puter. The other thing - and I believe the Honoura ble Member for Pembina raised - I would certainly appreciate the copy of the Task Force Report which the Minister mentioned in his

3480 June 4, 1975 BILL NO. 41 (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) .... comments when he gave second reading to the bill. But, Mr. Speaker, until we have more information from the Minister of the intent and the magnitude of this computer centre that he 's proposing under this legiSlation, it would be almost impos sible for me to support it in second reading until we get more information from the Honour able Minister. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR . HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside) : Mr.

Speaker, I have a few comments to make on this bill, and they are I believe in order, in the sense that I'm dealing in principle with the capital requirements of the Manitoba Telephone System. And I don't very often, Mr. Speaker, plead a parochial is sue on behalf of my con stituents, but I do so now. I indicated to the Minister responsible of Manitoba Telephones yesterday by note, one of my concerns. I didn 't realize that the bill would be up for second reading at this time, but I would like to put them on the record now. Mr.

Speaker, I, unlike my colleague the Member from Roblin, doubt very much whether I'll have too much difficulty in supporting the bill at second reading. lam, you know, prepared to go along with all the further sophistication that the communic ation system seems to require and demand in a modern era - so that, you know, we'll probably have to go along with the idea that computers will manipulate information , storing and retrieving, sorting and merging, calculating and transfo rming data.

And I'll go along with the new idioms of the English language, telecommunica tions, which means transmission, emis sion or reception of signs, signals, writing, images, sounds or any other intelligence of any nature, including what my wife is thinking about, by wire , radio, visual or other electro-ma gnetic systems. But, Mr. Speaker , my plea is simply this.

You see, out in the country - while we are programming the MTS into being what I'm sure is one of the finest systems in the country and on the continent - but really make a very serious pleas for the MTS to have some ongoing concern about the service in rural Manitoba. For instance I have only one motel, Mr. Speaker, in my constituency ... MR . SPEAKER : Order please. MR. ENNS: . . . and we can't get a pay station . . . MR. SPEAK ER: Order please. Much as I appreciate the fact that the Manitoba Telephone System is mentioned, the princ iple is on another issue, and the honourable member well knows it.

Let's stick to the computer. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR . ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that I can bring this all together for you and to your satisfaction according to the rules . We're talking - and again I have to break the rules in doing this on a question of - I'll do it then on a point of order. Further on in the bill, we're talking about giving the MTS, the telephone system, authority to borrow $10 million,

Section 4 of the Act - the Manitoba Telephone Act shall have the ability the authorization to raise $10 million by way of loan. Well, Mr. Speaker, my remarks are really pertinent. I don't mind if $ 9, 500, OOO etc. etc. go to this computer business that the bill seems to worry about. I just want a pay station somewhere in my constituency - you know, where people put a nickel in or a dime in and can call somebody. I can't get that, Mr. Speaker. I'm only living - that's only 30 miles out of Winn ipeg.

The Manitoba Telephone System has told me for over a year now that they haven 't got the facilities, they haven 't got the capacity to install into the one motel unit that we have located on Number 6 Highway - it's not off the beaten track anywhere - the hotel owner has to put up with the inconvenie nce of customer s using his private line and very often charging long distance calls to him. Well, I'm getting back to $10 million, Mr. Speaker, if you'll just . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. I have no desire to debate the issue with the honourable member.

He has made his point in respect to his service in telephon es, but I want to inform the honourable members the principle of this bill is computers, and the is sue around that, and not Manitoba Telephone service. I hope you'll stay with the subject. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, surely it's in order to do a litlle of bartering and trading off for support on a question of this importance. I just indicated to the Minister that I was prepared to support the bill, but I want a pay station in Woodlands. Thank you. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Cr eek. MR. J.

FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, I am going to be very brief on this. I just am wondering what is happening with the government again - as I said before,

June 4, 1975 3481 BILL 41 (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont'd) ..... this government continues to confuse me. We have been saying on this side of the House that we certainlv don't want to see the government go into anv more businesses than thev are at the present time, and there is every indication, as far as we can make out on this side, that the computer business is not going to be something that is going to be a money-maker in any way, shape or form, and I don't really believe that the Manitoba Telephone S ystem has to be in the computer situation to help the people of Manitoba.

I reallv don't see the justification of the $10 million, certainly at this time in this area. But it would seem that we are not having businesses now - we've got a new trend with the government.

We don't have the government going into business through the Manitoba Development Corporation any more; we have the government now planning to go into whey plants througli the Minister of Agriculture, and now we have computer businesses being started up bv the Manitoba Telephone, and it would seem that the policy of the government is to try and get into more businesses and private industry through the different departments of government - or I guess that each Minis ter wants to have his own little pride and joy to lose money with. Mr.

Speaker, the computer business, as I said, is not going to be somet hing that is go ing to be that beneficial to the people of Manitoba at the present time. Certainly there are companies that are finding it very hard to operate in the computer business in Winnipeg and, as a matter of fact, I think the market is well serviced in Manitoba so there's no way that I could support this bill. In all conscience, I can' t support the government going into million dollar businesses in other areas, and I certainly can't support it in this respect. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR.

DAVID BLAKE (Minnedosa): Thank vou, Mr . Speaker. I just wanted to make a word of observation much along the same line as some of mv colleagues have done. We have some indication of experience with computers - that• s right, in unemplovment insurance, but I was specifically referring to Phoenix Data - and some corporations that have been involved in the computer field for manv years find that it's not as lucrative as they once thought it might be.

I think the Minister is probablv well aware that there are many computers today in the private sector that are not being utilized to full capacitv, and thev could probablv find adequate time and space on various computers to handle a good deal of the workload that• s now being done by smaller computers if they wished to dispose of some of the smaller computers that we are being led to believe may be a little bit inefficient - or we're being led to believe that a large computer centre is going to be more effective and more efficient for government purposes.

But I particularly can't go along with that line of reasoning, Mr. Speaker. In view of the expenditure that's going to be necessary to put in this tvpe of sophisticated computerized and tele-communication service that the Minister is referring to, I suffer along some of the same lines and same problems that my honourable friend, the Member for Lakeside, experi ences. But we are led to believe that the Telephone System - and we know thev have an excel lent record as one of the finest utilities on the continent, and their development is on a prioritv basis.

They are certainly continuing to develop and improve the equipment in the communica tion field, and the priorities in this particular case, I would expect, are to certainlv provide the most efficient, effective, and up-to-date service for the users, the customers, which are the people of Manitoba. And I would like to think that all of these priorities on our provincial communication system have been improved to the best of our technical knowledge up to the present time.

At that time, when that is in effect, then I think we can look at going into a large capital expenditure and entering the computer field, but not until that time, Mr. Speaker, and for that reason alone, I would find it difficult to justify supporting this expenditure with mv constituents. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR . JOR GENSON: Before the Minister closes debate, I would like to make a few re marks. Your intervention, Mr. Speaker, into the remarks made bv the Member for Lake side, threw him off balance a little bit and he was unable to conclude his remarkf.

And fince he's exhausted his right to speak, he has commissioned me to deliver a message to the Minis ter - and that is, that if that pay station isn't in at the Woodlands Hotel by the time he closes debate, he's going to vote against it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR . TUR NBULL: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded bv the Minister of Labour, that de bate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried.

3482 June 4, 19 75 GOVERNMENT BILLS Cont'd MR. SPEAKER: Bill No . 44 . The Honourable Member for Gladstone . MR. JAME S FERGUS ON (G ladstone): May I have this bill stand, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 47. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake is absent. Bill No. 48. The Honourable Member for Morris. --(Interjec tion)--On which bill, the Honourable Member for Brandon Wes t. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West) : Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to speak on this bill at this time. MR. SPEAKER: 47 or 48 ? MR. McGILL: 48. MR. SPEAKER: 48. Thank you. BILL 48 - THE DISTRIC T HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICE S ACT MR. McGILL: Mr .

Speaker, the Bill 48, the District Health Services Act , was pre sented to the Legislature by the Act ing Minister of Health to explain that it was a statutory authority to provide a single health delivery, health and social program delivery svstem, within communities or areas of the Province of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, I think it's worthwhile reca lling at this stage, that the concept of integra ting health programs and services with social programs and services was conceived origin ally by a government of the Province of Manitoba which preceded that of the present adminis tration, that the original concept did develop and some implementation took place when the Department of Health and Social Problems and Social Programs were combined in a single ministry. Mr.

Speaker, I have read the explanations given by the Minister in respect to this bill, and he preceded his principle remarks by descri bing three types of district health systems. Type One, he descri bed as simply a linkage between acute care facilities and extended care or long care treatment facilities, and this, I think, has actually come about in certain areas of the province where there is a single board joining the authority and the operating programs of the two facilities - in fact, in one or two ins tances, the facilities for acute care and extended care actually join physically. But, Mr .

Speaker, while the Minister doesn' t say specifically, I think it's quite clear that what he's now proposing is the Type 2 system - or at least it would be enabling legislation for the secon d type of district health system to be implemented in Manitoba - and this would involve, not only the local hospitals and all other in-patient type of ins titutions, but also out patient or ambulatory and other outreach programs that are presently the re sponsibility of the Department of Health and Social Development.

An d I think, too, that those people who con ceived the three types of district health systems also conceived of the so-called voluntary programs as being part of the Type 2 system. That would involve programs delivered by other levels of government, or by such voluntary or private organizations as the Children's Aid Society and other such organizatio ns .

We are not discussi ng here I think, the final step in such single integrated concepts - that is the Type 3 system, where the medical assist ance of the doctors would be integrated into the program and the doctors would become, in effect, salaried civil servants. --(Inter ject ion)--Well, the Minister says that they would not be civil servants - but at least if Tvpe 3 system were eventually to be developed in Manitoba, it would mean that the doctors would be the employees of the single delivery type of board or authority in the region or district. But, Mr .

Speaker, I think it's important to note that when the Minister was desc ribing the purposes and the intent of this bill, he was silent on one of the major problems that is likely to develop in respect to the so-called Type 2 delivery system, and that is the role of the voluntary agenc y. I would have thought, Mr. Speaker, that this area, because it is certainly anticipated by those people who have been rese arching the area of district health care and district health delivery systems, it is anticipated by them and by most people who are familiar with the field, that this area presents some major problems.

If the voluntar v systems do in effect agree to have their programs delivered under the authority of the local boards, then they will in effect have lost their reason for existence, in that their major role of developing and planning their programs will have been turned over to the district board. I think this is an area in which we would need to be very well informed, Mr. Speaker, because that one alternative, I think, would not appeal to the voluntary systems. I would hope that there would

June 4, 1975 3483 BILL 48 (MR. McGILL cont'd) .•••. be some other way of maintaining the kind of quality that is now present, and now admitted to be present, in most of the programs that are being provided by volunt ary organizations and by other levels of government, municipal and local. The alterna tive to the voluntary agencies agreeing to be administ ered by the district board, would be for them to continue to operate their own programs under some sort of agreement with that board, but that alternative has the defect of leaving them really outside of the integrated program. So, Mr.

Speaker, certainly at this stage it's not clear how the Type 2 type of district health system, as I can see this bill to be implementing, would take care of this problem. I think it's an extremely important one. I think the services that are now provided on a voluntary basis or by other levels of government are, in the main, of a high quality and in the main - it is most desirable from the point of view of the ultimate receiver of those services to see that they are somehow maintained and, indeed, possibly enlarged, if that kind of quality can be maintained.

Mr, Speaker, the bill itself - and I suggested at the outset that the concept of an inte grated single delivery system, or health and social programs, is one worthy of real considera tion, is one that certainly has much merit. We need now to determine whether the bill - as proposed by this government and as explained by the Acting Minister of Health - is going to accomplish that particular objective. I would like to quote what the Minister said towards the end of his explanations the other day when the bill was introduced for second reading. He said: "The legislation, therefore, is intended, Mr.

Speaker, to encourage municipalities to assume an active and reasonable role in the planning, provision and the administration of health and social services in their own communities. " I think this statement is a very key one here, It says he's going to encourage the municipalities to take an active and responsible role in the planning and the provision of these programs. So, with that in mind, Mr.

Speaker, we turn to examine the bill as it's presented to us - this Bill No. 48 - and endeavour to find out how the Minister, through this legislation, permissive as it is - and he explained that quite clearly - and I agree that it is permissive, that the district s need not apply for an in tegrated system unless they have a clear indication of the municipalities involved in the dis trict; that this is the consensus and this is what they want to do. But the bill itself according to the Minister, is going to give them a chance to be actively involved in the planning of the health services.

Well, the programs that are to be provided on the integrated system under this bill - and I just quote one part of the bill, Mr. Speaker, to indicate the kind of transfer of authority that is inferred by the Minister. This says: "S ubject to the approval of the Minister, a board may take such steps as it deems necessary to establish and operate programs for providing health service and social service that it is required or authorized to provid e. " Subject to the approval of the Minister, they can do what is required or what they are authorized to do, Mr. Speaker.

Now this is bureaucratic language here that I think is really intended to create an aura of transfer of authority, but in effect transfers nothing - and it maintains with the Minis ter, and gives the board only the authority that they have been authorized to provide in this function. As we look through the Act - and without referring to any specific sections, the words which come out clearly are: "The Minister may cause to be prepared a proposal for the establishment of an organization. " And that, "For the purposes of preparing a proposal, the Minister may enter into negotiations with the owners.

And when a proposal has been prepared in relation to a district health unit, the Minister shall submit the proposal to each municipalitv, and all or part of which is within the district of the proposed district. " And it switches Mr. Speaker, between the name of the Minister, who has the authority, or the Lieutenant-Governor in-Council.

Nowhere it seems to me - and that may be an exaggeration, because I'm sure I haven't read it in such a careful way that I could be certain that there is no direct authority for planning offered to the board that might be set up - but there seems to be little evidence, that anywhere in this whole pact, any real authority is transferred to the proposed board in the district health system, On the contrary, there seems to be much indication that there is a complete retention of authority, but not a retention of authority to be responsible for deficits.

The Minister and the Lieutenant-Governor-in- Council are prepared to attain authority for programs, for author ization, but when they come down to a case where there might not be enough money to pay the bills of the work, that this board has acted as a - well, I don't say that they have developed

3484 June 4, 1975 BILL 48 (MR. McGILL cont'd) •.... these programs, but they have been authorized to present by the Minister; if there are any deficits it is stated under this Act that those deficits must be shared by the municipalities who are participating in this health area. So that Pm sure the municipalities will be somewhat surprised to know, if they don't know already, that if they opt into this plan they will not be responsible for the planning of the programs, but they will be responsible for the covering of any deficits which result from the work of this board . Mr.

Speaker, this is the kind of problem that we have with this bill throughout. It is one which, if I just may simply be quite blunt about it, seems to be the setting up of a buff er for the Government of Manitoba to take the flack which inevitably develops when any new system is put into effect, particularly in health and social programs, aff ecting people of the province. Eventually there are problems which arise. It seems to me that this is an excellent manner of providing a board which will act as a defensive mechanism for the province.

If things go wrong, it would be likely that the people in a health district would look to the board that' s been set up. And yet the board, by the regulations contained here, is largely the work of the Minister and the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. These people are not elected directly by the people in that district, by them, to sit on the board. They are, by regulation, placed as being eligible for service on the district health board, and once there, they then become willing or unwilling perpetrators, or the people who are responsible for the putting into effect the programs authorized by the Minister. Mr.

Speaker, these are the reservations that concern us. These are the concerns we have upon reading this bill. You know, it fits a kind of plan that's developing here, that I perceive in another major bill - another major planning bill that has been brought to us, where we are told in language and in rhetoric that we are transferring authority for certain activities to regions of the province, so that there will be a grass-roots participation; so that there will be a participation at the local level in the decision making and in the planning of programs.

What is happening, is that the legislation seems to be designed by the same archi tect in each case. In the case of land use planning, it seems that the complete authority rests with the Minister and the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council - and now we see, that in the case of health services of an integrated health services program on a district level, that the auth ority is not going to go with the setting up of a board, that it's going to be largely, if not entirely, retained within the government. And to infer that something else is taking place here, Mr.

Speaker, I think is not really to be candid and completely truthful about the way in which the legislation has been drawn up. I repeat, Mr. Speaker, that the setting up of district health boards seems to provide a perf ect front for a government to hide behind in order to be not in the direct line of fire when difficulties arise - and difficulties will arise in any new pro gram of this type. If the plan is to proceed, ce rtainly I think it cannot proceed, it cannot be eff ectively transferring authority to the regions under the Act that is now presented to us.

I regret very much, again, that the Minister has left the role of the voluntary organizations - as well as those of the municipal and the federal departmental programs - out of his explana tions, and really has remained silent as to how these would fit into place in the district system that he is now proposing. It is a bill that - again I must say - was introduced to us, stating that there was a concept here of integrating the variety of health programs and social programs in a single integrated delivery system.

It would be a permissive bill that would enable areas in the province that have a community or an attachment of interest, to ce rtain now established health facilities, both in-patient and out-pat ient - enable them to decide if they wish to enter. It was prese nted to us - and the concept I must say, Mr. Speaker, appeals to us; there is merit, definitely in the proposals, merit definitely in the concept. But Mr. Speaker, the bill repels us.

We can not support this bill, because it really doesn't do what the whole inference is, it really does not transfer authority to those regions that would now permissively set up under this legislation. And if they have no authority, if in fact they are losing authority, and become rubber stamps for the government, why should they enter into this arrangement? Why should they, when the deficits which are going to occur are going to have to be borne by those municipalities ? They have that right now.

They don't need to enter into any such program as this in order to be responsib le financially for what goes on in their own areas. Mr. Speaker, this bill, I say again, does not do what we were led to think it would do. The Minister did remain silent on some serious areas in this bill - on how he would look after, how he would maintain the role of the voluntary agencies. He has left many things unsaid. He

June 4, 1975 3485 BILL 48 (MR. McGILL cont'd) .. .. . has offered the people of the province an opportunity to become involved in a district health delivery system, that in theory should have some merit. The bill presents it in a way that really defeats the purpose, and acts in a way to allow the government to retain all the authority without taking too much of the direct responsibility. And I don• t really see in this bill a way in which there is a real function for a district board. Mr.

Speaker, I suggest that perhaps it could better be done by a district administrator; a group of people working here, who are authorized only to do what the Minister tells them to do, are really wasting their time. And we might as well have a paid administrator doing that function, be cause in effect it is really a function of implementing the orders and directions of the Minister and the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. Order please. Order please. The bill is still in the name of the Honourable Member for Morris.

The Honourable Member for Brandon West spoke inbetween. That concludes the bills. The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Miriister of Urban Affairs, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider supply. MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - LABOUR MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please.

Resolution 73 - Apprenticeship and Industrial Train ing, Item (

a) Salaries - the Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, just before the adjournment at noon, I was attempting to answer some of the questions that have been posed to me by members opposite. And I had touched on a number of the questions, but I feel that it's only fair on my part to make further observations of some of the remarks that were made dealing with the question of Resolution No. 73 . I don't know whether or not, as I resume my replies - that I may have overlooked pre viously some of the points raised, particularly by the Member for Fort Garry.

But I will endeavour to answer what I feel has not been answered at the present time, and I'm sure that the members opposite will pull me to task if I do omit any replies to their questions - and I can assure them that it will not be deliberate. The Member for Fort Garry quite properly, I would suggest, drew to my attention and the attention of the committee, the plight which appears to exist in the garment industry in Manitoba. Indeed, it is a sorry state of affairs, to use that expression broadly, that the same plight applies generally speaking to the garment industry in other jurisdictions as well.

I might say, that sometime ago, there were a few news items which appeared indicating the establishment of plants in the garment industry outside the boundaries of Manitoba and, in particular, down in the Thunder Bay area - and expressions of fear were exhibited that this might be construed as meaning that the garment industry was leaving Manitoba. I may say, Mr.

Chairman, that I investigated into the content of the news articles and found, that rather than anything moving out of the Province of Manitoba, there was still an expansion going on in the garment industry, but the garment industry was expanding into the Thunder Bay area and parts of Ontario in order to attract an availability of workers in those respective communities. Many recognize that some of the difficulties in the garment industry is the apparent low wages on a comparative basis that are being paid in garment industry. And basically that apprehension is correct.

The Honourable Member for Fort Garry said, that generally for the first year they're paid the minimum wage which, of course, they have to be paid in any case, or else render themselves liable for prosecution. And then after the first year they go on; it's as their training develops, not the incident of a year, that affects their wages. And most of the employees in the garment industry are paid on a piecework basis related to - for the purposes of the records of the Employment Standards Division - related to being assured that the minimum wage regulations are being adhered to.

I might say, in all fairness to the in dustry, many of them have collective agreements with the Amalgamated Clothing Workers Union and other unions, that increases occur in base rates as related to the minimum wage, normally on a percentage basis - or quite frequently on a percentage basis. For instance, if

3486 June 4, 1975 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ..... the minimum wage goes up 25 cents, then possibly 10 or 15 percent is added on under the collective agreement to the base wage that has been negotiated. I've made it my business, since becoming Minister, to become involved to a reasonable degree with the garment industry, and to attempt to overcome, or help overcome some of the problems of the industry. One of the real problems of the garment industry, I suggest, is the ancient concept that the industry is domiciled in upstairs garrets and basements of old fac tories and the like.

And I had the opportunity a little while ago, of asking my colleagues in Cabinet to join with the industry in producing a film for the purpose of trying to indicate to potential employees, particularly in Manitoba, that the working conditions in the garment industry were not such as the previous conception of the conditions of employment. And I can say, Mr. Speaker, that generally speaking, there has been a tremendous upgrading in the physical facilities of our garment industries in the Province of Manitoba.

It is true that there are still a considerable number of garment factories that need to be brushed up and brought up to higher standards, and I think if that were done, the industry may be more attractive to a greater number of people.

And as a result of the contribution in co-operation with the Fashion Institute, and also the co-operation of the Federal Department of Industry and Com merce, I had the opportunity a week or two ago of seeing the preview of the film - and I rec ommend to members of the committee, that they should take the first opportunity of seeing the film, which indicates the type of clothing that is being manufactured here in Manitoba that is comparable with anything manufactured anywhere else in the world.

As a matter of fact, the Honourable Member for Fort Garry mentioned the area or the input that is being made insofar as the financial aspects of Manitoba, that the garment indus try income is relatively near the top - he mentioned the second. I think that is the correct position - very close to that, in any case. And also, when we compare the type of garment that is being manufactured here in Manitoba with manufacturing outside of Manitoba, we can even outdo in some instances the achievements of Gay Paree, which has long historically been considered as the foundation of styles of clothing, etc.

So I compliment the garment industry in what they are attempting to do. Having said that, I must also caution that there is still a long way to go in the industry before it will become fully attracted to expansion - people seeking employment, and particu larly people who are seeking an area of secondary employment. I'm thinking of the - in this instance, mainly of the unmarried mother, of the single parent - I'm thinking of the female parent who requires supplemental assistance to the home income, and the like.

And I think that the garment industry has to do - and I might say that they are beginning to think very actively of coming in and working with us in this area - is to lay more emphasis on the pro vision of day care centres for their employees, so that the unmarried mothers and those that I have just referred to will be able to have facilities close to the factory, where they can be assured of their offspring being taken care of.

As far as immigration is concerned, I'm still of the opinion that as the industry becomes more attractive locally, as the industry makes more provisions for facilities such as day care centres, meals for children and the likes of that, so they will attract more people into the industry. When we look at the statistics of unemployment in Manitoba, we find that in some areas not covered by the Federal Bureau of Statistics - in some of our rural communities and North ern Manitoba, we find that the unemployment rate there is terrifically high and, in my opinion, unjustifiably high.

I do know that in the garment industry, some firms have attempted to establish factories in those areas on a basis of co-operation, in some instances, with pro grams federally and provincially - and they haven't been successful, and some of them have had to just withdraw. But I'm convinced, I'm convinced that if some of the amenities that enjoy in the larger centres are provided for, that we will be able to induce more of that high number of unemployed in the remote areas to become part and parcel of the garment industry - and other industries as well, it's not just related to the garment industry.

And I have found, through observations and surveys, that a considerable number of people who have been induced or invited to come into Manitoba and to Canada to become employees in the garment industry, that they're here for a short period of time and then they go into other areas of activity - nurses aides and licensed practical nurses and the likes of that. And basically, there's nothing wrong. Just recently, while in hospital, one of the young ladies that was working on the ward that I was on, told me that she came over from the Philippines.

She came over here on invitation of the garment industry; she worked in the garment industry, found really no

June 4, 1975 3487 SUP PLY - LABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) •.•.. fault with it, but she wanted to - what she said - advance, so she went into the area of an auxiliary in the nursing field, because we've had shortages there as well. So I would suggest, I would suggest that notwithstanding the example that I have just given, there hasn't been enough concentration of effort to make employment in the garment industry really attractive to our local people, in many instances - to our native people, I should say - and in many instances, to unwed mothers, parent s and the likes of that.

And here, I would like to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that one of the activities that is being carried on at the present time by the Women's Bureau of the department, is to go out and meet with students and groups of unmarried mothers, and women in the labour force, to explain to them how they may become involved in working in industries such as the garment industry. But there has to be - I think this would be universally agreed upon - a greater involvement with the provision of services, so that the children of those that are seeking employment are taken care of.

And I feel that, notwithstanding the joint programs that we have for day care centres between the federal and the provincial authorities, as announced from time to time by my col leagues in the Department of Health - there is an opportunity for a greater involvement of the garment industry itself. Now, I may be faulted for the position that I have taken - I do, from time to time, how ever, receive information that the position that I have taken basically is one with which there is general agreement.

We need, in my opinion, to have a greater impact, or a greater input in sort of a type of apprentice training, prior to going into the garment industry. And there is a school by the Fashion Institute on, I believe, Princess Street, and one or two of the factories also have a school of training. So all is not bad with the garment industry. But then again, it is an industry in which I feel that there could be a vast improvement as to pay ment of wages, as to working conditions in some of the areas. Mention was made of training of people in the core area of Winnipeg.

The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge quite frequently makes references when he's talking of urban problems, to the core area of the City of Winnipeg. And there are great problems there, we're all aware of those problems. The answer, however, in my opinion, is not simply to attempt to take people in those core areas and introduce them to a sewing machine, and feel that we are solving the problems. It's much more involved than just that. And I recommend to the members of this committee, and to my colleagues in government, that this - at least in my opinion - is the type of approach that we must take.

Now, there were other points raised in connection with the items dealing in this section, that I may have overlooked. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia said he's not satisfied with the operation of Federal Manpower in job placement and the like. I am not either - and for that reason, I and my fellow Ministers of Labour have from time to time met with each other to consider approaches to be taken in the field of manpower so that we can improve the situa tion.

I promised the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge that I would touch on that aspect of manpower and immigrat ion a little further when we extend to the consideration of the salary of the Minister of the department. Now I trust, Mr. Speaker, that I haven't omitted too much. I do note now, however, an item raised by my honourable friend, the Member for Assiniboia, dealing with sheltered work shops. I'm sure that he is aware of my own personal interest in this particular area, and the interest of the department and the Civil Service Commission, and others.

When I discuss the estimates of the Civil Service Depart ment, I'll make reference to one or two events that are occurring there.

And one of the problems that we're having at the present time in the field of the provision of sheltered workshops - and they're, at the present time, performing a pretty go od service to those people - but I don't think that we've really got to the nitty gritty of the solution of the problem confronted by many of our retarded children, and handicapped children as well - and I'm not linking them precisely together, but I think we have to have another greater human understanding of the problems of each before we can really get to solutions. And I think one of the solutions, Mr.

Chairman, would be, instead of having possibly as many sheltered workshops as we have at the present time, that we have more involvement in every day employment - where people who are normal, or considered to be normal, are working alongside of the retarded, so that by example, they can produce. One might not be able to produce quite as much as the other, but the mere association of the normal and the sub-normal,

3488 June 4, 1975 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) •.••• I think is a direction that should be taken by those engaged in the consideration of those less fortunate than ourselves. Mr. Chairman, I believe that gener ally speaking , generally speaking, this answers most of the questions raised on this particular item. If I have not answered - or if there are further questions, I would be more than pleased to endeavour to answer the same. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORT HY: Mr.

Speaker, I want to take the Minister up on his invitation to pose some further questions, relating to the question of industrial training primarily. MR. PAULLEY: Pardon? MR. AXWORTHY: To the question of the industrial training activities of the department. One of the general impressions that has been parlayed in this House from time to time, is that there is exceeding difficulty by small busin esses and firms in the province of getting the skilled manpower that they require. And up to this time, Mr.

Chairman, I believe that that particular position was always one based more on hearsay and anecdote than it was on some form of fact. But just this February, Mr . Chairman, I think a fairly interes ting study was produced by the Department of Industry and Commerce in connection with the Canadian Manufacturing Association which, I think, points its finger at a very serious problem in the industrial training field - and that is, the serious discrepancy between the activitie s, or the use of small firms as compared to large firms of graduates of industrial training programs or apprenticeship pro grams.

And if I just may read the

summary of the statement - I won't go into the whole study - but it shows that large firms far more fre quently employ recent graduates of training or educational programs than do small firms. The use of upgrading present employees to fill job vacancies is more prevalent among large firms than small firms. And when you get back into the ac tual statistical background for it, when they talk about applications for the Canada Manpower on-the-job training program, they say that small firms have no applications at all, while large firms have not really suitably trained or experienced applications .

What it indi cates, Mr . Chairman, is the point we have been trying to make in this House, that there are a number of serious gaps or problems in the industrial training program in the province.

And I wouldn't want to say - I don't necessa rily say it's only in Manitoba - I would suggest that it's probably a product of that very slippery world of federa l-provincial manpower training arrange ments that have gone through so much reorganization and negotiation over the past several years - but what does appear to be ob vious, is that the program is st ill not working very well; that we are missing some very fundamental requirements, and that, again, refer back to this particular study, they point out that the major problem is in areas like food and bevera ge pro ces sing, printing, publishing, transportation, equipment industries, and other forms of smaller manufacturing goods.

Now what it indicates to me, Mr. Chairman, is this: that many of the small firms are being severely handicapped in their ab ility to provide increased production, increased services, because of the lack of skilled manpower that they can use. And the reason that lack is there is because the present arrangement of industrial training programs in the province aren't gearing themselves towards supplying of those particular skills - or in fact, there is some bre akdown in arrangements between smaller firms and those programs to ensure that they get the workers they need.

If you carry the logic of that argument further, Mr .

Chairman, we have had a great deal of debate about inflation, for example, in this House - and the point we have been trying to make from our own group is that a primary provincial responsibility in combatting inflation is to detect areas of blockage in the ec onomic system, or block age in the productivity of the ec on omic system, that's in the area which is particularly susceptible to provincial initiative, and it seems very obvi ous from this study that this is a key area, that we are, in fact, handicapping or holding back the capacity or abilities of many smaller firms in our province to produce as well as they should because of their lack of manpower, and that the supply side of it - the apprentice programs, the manpower training programs, the on-the-job training programs have all been introduced and, in fact, are in being - don't seem in any way to be geared to the requirements, manpower requirements, of smaller firms, smaller busin es ses.

In fact, by some coincidence, Mr. Chairman, just this morning as I was picking up some dry-clea ning, that' s exactly what my neighbourhood dry-cleaner said to me. He's had sort of an application

June 4, 1975 3489 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ...• • to try and get skilled people out in that particular field, not just for pressing but to do some business administration work, and because he's kind of a small-time dry-c leaner - he's not Perth' s, he's not a big-time guy - he can't get any attention paid to him, and it just seems that somehow there's a real failure here that •.. That's why, Mr.

Chairman, we've been asking the Minister, as he knows, a number of questions about the organizational setup that rela tes to making sure there's a proper tr ansfer of the graduates of the apprentice programs and industrial training programs into the work force, and that there's also a proper organizational base for ensuring that the benefits of on-the-job training, Manpower on-the-job training programs - which I believe are pretty much all funded by federal resources - that they are being used by small firms, not just by the large ones.

There is a tendency to go to Dominion Steel or Bristol or something and say, "H ey, let's get some on-the-job training programs ." But by doing so we're ignoring, I think, one of the most fruitful areas of manpower utilization and of job creation and of skill upgrading, and that is in the smaller firms in the city. Because if you really look at it, they're the back bone of the econom y of this province. We don't get our big ••• from the big guys - we're not a big manufacturing centre; the real economic strength of this province is in the small manu facturers and the smaller service industries.

This is where this province, if it's going to maintain its economic stability, has got to do it. So, Mr. Chairman, we want to get from the Minister an indication of the efforts that may be undertaken by the Provincial Government to overcome this particular problem and, as I say, it's not a problem of hearsay, there seems to be some fairly definitive facts and figures to underline it. We would also like to ask, Mr .

Chairman, in the negotiations that the Minister mentioned that are going on, whether there has been any serious discussion of, in fact, the Province taking over the placement service function away from the Federal Government . When my colleague, the Member for Assiniboia, said he doesn't think Canada Manpower's doing its job, frankly, it isn't. I think that it may be serving a certain function in providing job infor mation and labour information, but in terms of doing the kind of counselling and placement of individuals in their jobs, frankly it just really isn't working at all.

And I would think that next to the housing problem, which I get no satisfaction on from your government, the one area where I get most complaints in my own constituency are people in the Manpower placement service. They just feel that they go down, put their application in, no one ever hears from them again, or they go to the wrong jobs ; and, as a result, they end up on the Unemployment Insurance roll.

So I'm wondering if, in fact, there might be more validity to seeing whether that function can be taken over on the provincial level and therefore it might provide, because the province is already administering most of the industrial training programs, that there might, therefore, be a closer cohesion and a closer compatibility of interests in those areas. If a discussion isn't going on, or those representations not being made, then I would urge the Minister to consider that possibility of setting up a provincial placement service and in fact changing over from using the Canada Manpower services in that respect.

MR. CHAIBMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: There was some indication, I believe yesterday, that this particular item of manpower may be considered on my salary, but I think it would be opportune at this partic ular time, due to the remarks of my honourable friend from Fort Rouge and his direct question to me as to attitude, and in particular the attitude of the Minister represent ing the Province of Manitoba in this general area. I made reference, Mr . Chairman, to the fact that a week or two ago I met with my colleagues and the Honourable Mr.

Andras in Montreal to consider general policy dealing with Manpower to deal with mobility and immigration. We didn't, as I indicated to the House previously, precisely deal with the Green Paper on Immi gration, but it may be of interest to the honourable member and to the committee, Mr .

Speaker, with your tolerance, if I read my opening remarks at the Conference of Provincial Ministers with the federal minister, and I would like the indulgence of the Committee to read this to give an indication of the position that I took on behalf of the Province of Manitoba in the very impor,. tant area of activity just referred to by the Member for Fort Rouge: "Dealing with placement, mobility and immigration.

We have had considerable discus sion today" - and this of course refers to my remarks of a couple of weeks ago - "W e have had considerable discussion today on the topic of jurisdiction as to policy and finance. These are really matters of intention, of goals and objectives, and of the means to achieve our goals . The

3490 June 4, 1975 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. PAULLEY con t'd) ••... third issue which the provinces have agreed to raise deals with three tools of overall manpower policy: placement, µi.obility and immigration. These three are seen as tech niques which can be used to further Manpower policy, but not as policy matters in themselve s. The provinces and territories are agreed that placement, mobility and immigration are instruments of manpower policy, and whether these instruments are provided through federal or provincial offices, they must be provided in accordance with provincial policies and obj ec tives.

As my colleagues from Quebec, British Columbia and Ontario have pointed out, the definition of comprehensive manpower policies is properly the task of the provinces, because most labour market ac tivity is provincial or sub-provincial. "The provinces have undisputed responsibilit y for the major instrument of manpower policy. That is the training institutions. There is no logic in allowing some instruments of policy, such as placement, mobility and immigration, to operate in a fas hion which contradicts or is not entirely consonant with the overall policy of the provincial authorities.

"I want to be very clear about the matters which I am bringing to your attention. The provinces . • . - and of course, I was speaking, as I indicated, on be half of the Province of Manitoba • . • - "The provinces see placement as the transmission of information about jobs and the matching of available workers and jobs. Mobility is the movement of workers from areas of low demand to areas where jobs are available, while immigration is a specific form of mobility which draws into Canada off-shore workers to fill available jobs.

Clea rly, none of these instruments can function to advantage unless they are subservient to overall Manpower policy gene rated by the province s. "I would like the federal Minister to know that in our discussions we have acknowledged that these three instruments require substantial federal involvement. Our point is, delivery of these services must not blunt the provincial thrust. In the future, we expect that it will be administratively advantageous for a number of the provinces to use est ab lished federal agencies, such as Canada Manpower centres, to provide these services.

So we are not asking the Fed eral authority to vacate the field or to abandon these instruments. All three have national as well as local setting, and that fact is recognized. " And then I went on making a . . . I made an obse rvation that "while we do not wish to discuss immigration to any extent today, I would be remiss if I didn't mention the Green Paper, " and it was just mentioned in passing. "In our discussions, it has become evident that we share the view that immigration is a tool of manpower policy with tremendous impact on the labour market.

The provinces generally feel that immigration is therefore the last resort in mee ting policy objec tives." And I'v e referred to that here in the House and publicly on a number of occasions. "We must use the other ins truments at our disposal - training, placement, and mobility - before going off shore. It is my own view that we must do a great deal of work with the private sector .•.

" and I'm particularly interested in the observations of the honourable member on the smaller indus tries, and I had that in mind while speaking - "it is my own view that we must do a great deal of work with the private sector, both management and unions, to encourage that part of our economy to focus on those unemployed Canadians with special needs to fill labou r market shortages rather than recruiting off shore." I began this part of my remarks by saying that we did not want to dwell on immigration today; each province will have an opportunity of discussing that aspect when the Joint Com mittee of the Senate and Commons comes to our jurisdictions.

"I think, though, that immigra tion as an instrument of overall policy is a good example of what we mean when we say that these three tools - placement, mobility, and immigration - must serve provincial policy. The alternative is a lack of coordination that serves Canada poorly.

"And that is the situation that I believe the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge means, and I join him in agreement that that appears to be the situation prevailing today, but I hope that he and membe rs of the committee may give some credit to the position that we have take n in trying to overcome the diffic ulties with which we are confronted in these three areas particularly. Now I appreciate that it may not be the complete answer to the honourable member and his remarks.

I would suggest that some of the difficultie s that the smaller industrie s are having at the present time in attracting graduates from our apprenticeship program is the

June 4, 1975 3491 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ••••. question of wages. I'm sure he would recognize that some of the larger industries are able financially to possibly pay higher wages than some of the small er industries, although it is not nec essarily true, but I think that it is a fact that there is a greater attraction for graduates in the mechanical and other fields to become employed with larger firms than with smaller firms.

I hope that the reading of my introductory remarks at the recent conference will indicate to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge the position that I took on behalf of my colleagues. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radisson): I just wondered, before the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge proceeds, if I may have leave of the House to make some changes on the two committe es. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I think the honourable member would have to make that when the Speaker returns. MR. SHAFRANSKY: No, Mr.

Chairman, we can do that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Do we have leave ? (Agreed) COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTIONS MR. SHAFRANSKY: For the Economic Development Commi ttee, substitute the name of the Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs for that of the Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. On the Law Amendments Committe e, substitute the name of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture for that of the Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources.

Also, again, in Law Amendments Committe e, substitute the name of the Honourable Member for Point Douglas for that of the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development - on Law Amendment s Committee. Two changes for Law Amendments Committee and one for Economic Development. SUPPLY - LABOUR (cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, just to pursue the matter a step or two further on this question of how we can try to alter some of the present practices in the industrial train ing program in order to not only supply manpower requiremen ts, but also provide a greater opportunity for those unskilled people going into training programs to get their own personal opportunities.

If the Minister will rec all, about the beginning of the session we introduced a series of resolutions on manpower policy, and one of the proposals we made at that time was that certain tax incentives be given to certain classes of employers - primarily smaller employers we're talking about - as a way of providing an incentive for the employment and the development of on-the-job training programs in their own enterprises, as being a way of providing that compen sation to smaller firms in terms of trying to compete with larger firms; that this would be one way of incorporating them into the system where perhaps their own basic economic structure wouldn• t allow them, if there was some kind of fiscal incentive given, that they wouldn't then be more tempted.

And if the Minister would recall, at that time we indicated that there had been some American experiments in that area, and they found that in many ways that was the most productive kind of incentive to use in terms of on the-job training of providing that kind of fiscal tax incentive. And I'm wondering whether the Minister - I think at that time said that he indicated a fair degree of approval or approbation of those ideas - whether the Minister might be prepared to work out perhaps with federal authorities experiment al or pilot project programs in the province to determine whether in fact that would work.

In other words, take a class of smaller employers who presently do not have or use on-job training or apprenticeship training graduates in their particular business operations and through the use of the kind of some form of fiscal incentive, -whether it's tax incentives or others, that they would be able to incorporate them.

Now I realize that there is a Canada Manpower on-the-job training program, but I'm talking about one that would be particularly directed towards the needs of the smaller employer, the smallest business enterprise, and see maybe what variations of different kinds of incentives could be tried in order to find out what would work best in terms of providing that more direct transfer

349 2 June 4, 1975 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) •••.• and mayb e opening up a whole new area of on-job training opportunities. I wonder if the Minister might be prepared to look into that or consider that as a program that could be introduced as a way of dealing with that specific probl em. At the same time, Mr.

Chairman, we also talked at that juncture about the es tablish ment - could be on a temporary basis I suppose, but at least under present conditions of a manpower and work council in the province that would bring together a range of employers, social agencies, educational institutions and provincial and federal authorities to sit down and begin mapping out some of these kinds of alternative programs. Because it was, Mr.

Chairman, one of our own assessments as we went from department to department look ing at estimates where we found Colleges and Universities had a little bit of the action, Industry and Commerce a li ttle bit of the action, and Education a little bit of the action, there seemed to be a real problem of cohesion inside the provincial departments themselves.

And certainly that fragmentation was even more apparent when you found out that there were some social agencie s working here and the Winnipeg School Board working there, and we're just wondering whether it's abo ut time at least we got the different parts talking together and working out some joint enterprises to see where they could provide for that kind of co ordination in these efforts ; and it would seem to me that the es tablishment of a council like that that would sit down and begin discussing their common activities and working out ways of integrating them might also be another answer in addition to the kind of tax incentive things that we talked about, as again trying alternative ways of coping or dealing with these situations.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 73(a) -- the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . L. R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, just one or two questions of the Minister before we get off this vote on which he's given us a pretty extensive overview of his department's plans and operations.

The Minister said at the beg inning of his remarks in response to some points that I raised this morning that there has been a good deal of crying, a good deal of complaining from industry generally, particularly from the construction industry, about shortages of skilled labour in their specific fields and he doesn't feel that there has been the justifiable amount of input by industry in trying to help tackle that probl em. I would just ask the Minister for clarification if he is saying to industries of this kind in effe ct, "Physician heal thyself" .

I would like to just for the record make reference again to some comments made by a spokesman for the Canadian Manufacturer Association recently in which he said - and that person was again Mr. Cavanagh who is the Chairman of the Branch here - in which he said, and again I'm quoting, sir, "T hat improved co-ordination betw een management, unions and the federal and provincial governments is needed if Manitoba is to overcome its shortage of skilled tradesmen.

" He went on to say and the reporter referring to his remarks went on to report the following thrust of argument, and again I'm quoting, "C o-operative programs in the education and training of tradesmen are required to avoid si tuations where men and women are unable to find employment in fields for which they were prepared through govern ment financed courses. By working together industry, unions and government, may be able to remedy the defects in each of their spheres that result in this unfortunate waste of tax payers money. " So what I'm asking the Minister at this juncture Mr.

Chairman, is whether that point of view from the Chairman of the Manitoba Branch of the Canadian Manufacturers Association fairly represents, in the Minister's view, fairly represents the situation existing in this whole field of skilled labour shortages at the present time and whether the Minister is in fact saying that that kind of co-ordination and co-operation is neces sary and that a great deal more input is necessa ry from industry itself.

That there is co-operation and co-ordination and there is initiative in this field coming from the Minister, coming from his department, coming from the organized labour sector, but there is not suff icient input, sufficient energy, suffi cient thrust coming from industry, from management generally. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Lab our. MR. PAULLEY: I think it would be fair to say, Mr.

Chairman, that it is my view there is not sufficient input coming in from industry general to assist the various departments of government of Manitoba and federal authority in order to augment services or provisions for

June 4, 1975 3493 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) •••.. a greater supply of trained personnel. The Honourabl e Member for Fort Rouge referred obliquely to the same type of problem that's existing, as the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. It would not be known, I suppose, generally Mr. Chairman, but the department has been greatly concerned with this matter and I'm sure that if my friend and colleague the Minister of Finance were present he too would agree with me, that while we're considering estimates the dollar input from the public treasury basica lly is, or by and large, pretty large .

Of course they're sharing with the federal authority but we are not unmindful that when we share dollars with the federal authority, to quote one of the more eminent graduates of this Assembly, the Honour able Douglas Campbell, that whether the money comes out of the federal treasury or whether it comes out of the provincial treasury, it comes out of my pocket just the same. So there's no question about that. That's one of the things that I'll always remember about Doug Campbell when I sat with him in this House.

But, I'm sure that it will be of interest to membe rs of the committee to know that either last year or the year before we had the advantage of having as one of the consultant - do you remember what year that was? - last year, we had an opportunity of working along with the, to me, one of the most knowledgeable graduates of our educational system here in Manitoba, who's now a Don over at Oxford University, by the name of George Bain, who has written one or two books on labour relations matters - we had the opportunity of having him work with us looking into the very problem we're discussing at the present time.

That is how to approach on a more uniform or more co-operative basis the processing or providing more graduates through apprenticeship training programs and other training programs. And a suggestion was made to us that consideration might be given to levying a tax or an assessm ent generally on industry as well as the taxes that are coming out of the public treasury, in order to augment and accelerate the program of apprentice and pro fessi onal training.

So I indicate that to my honourable friends to illustrate that the very point raised by the Member for Fort Rouge and the Member for Fort Garry has been drawn to my attention. It is being considered. And then I repeat, that I feel that there has to be a greater involve ment from industry itself in providing - they do provide to a large degree the facilities - bu t providing incentives for men and women to enter into apprentice training and share to a greater directed degree in the cost of production of apprentice s. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, how does the department communicate this charge or this challenge to industry generally, other than just in an exchange of this kind in consideration of the Minister's estimates. I mean there's a challenge obvi ously here that the Minister feels is a re sponsibility that should be met and shared by industry and I'm wondering how is that charge communicated to industry, to management, in this province ? Is the Minister or his deputies mee ting with industry on this specific question? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: It was hell at one time, but it' s rather healthy right now.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I can answer that. That personally I do meet from time to time with my associates, with representatives of industry, I referred earlier to mee ting with the construction management group charged with the responsibilit y of the deve lopment of Hydro. I want to tell my honourable friend that I do talk to such organizations as the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, and the executive and members from time to time of these common proble ms.

I have as a general policy as Minister that I believe that continuing conversation with management and with employers, employees , should be an ongoing process, and through this methodology we are attempting to do just what the member suggested we do from time to time. We hold seminars, joint seminars by the various component groups to consider the problems that we are having. It is on that basis that there is the interchange taking place . It may well be that it's not sufficient but it is going on nonetheless. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to just refer briefly again to the garment industry and the conditions therein. The Minister gave us a pretty comprehensive report of the situation in the garment industry, but I'd like to know whether there are hole s in the

349 4 June 4, 1975 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR.

SHERMAN cont'd) ••••. job force, openings unfilled in the work force in the gar ment industry at the present time that add up to anything significant, anything critical for the industry, how this situation compares with the equivalent picture in the industry last year - at this time last year there was considerable comment and complaint from the industry that they were severa l hundred skilled workers short - and can he report to the committee as to the results of the retraining program which was undertaken in order to equip many of those on our owi:J. unemployment rolls and 'many of those in the native work force to fill jobs in that industry .

What degree of success has there been numerically in attempting to meet what last year was a very widely publicized condition ? I must say that --(Interjec tion)-- well the Member for St. Johns says every year. I must say I haven't heard as much in the way of complaint about difficulty from the garment industry this year than I heard last year, but perhaps it does exist, perhaps there's a level of job dislocation and unemployment there that is pretty constant and remains pretty well standard throughout the years . But cer tainly last year there was a pretty subst antial outcry from the industry.

They were talking in terms of being several hundred skilled workers short and there was the cry the Minister' s already referred to, that they might have to fold their tents and move to Alberta or other parts of Canada in some cases, and at that time the Minister reass ured the committee and the House that an extensive program was under way to equip people from our own labour force who were unemployed at the time, to fill those jobs . Now does he have any mathematical or numerical results that he can give us ? MR. PAULLEY: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I hav en' t them at my fingertips.

I want to correct one statement the honourable member just made . I did not say that the garment industry were moving out of Manitoba. I referred to the fact that they were es tablish ing plants in the Thunder Bay area because of the local situation from employment; which is, I think my honourable friend would admit, slightly different than the wording that he used. I can say quite frankly I know that there are still shortages within the garment industry of workers. Not to the same degree as was the case last year, so I am informed.

As far as fur ther development in training and attempting to attract workers into the industry, I guess I should confess that the only real positive step that I thought that had been taken or have been involved in, was an attempt to try and portray to the general public that it is not undesirable to work in the garment industry through the insistence in advertising the garment industry per se.

If what the honourable member means, have I es tablished any real apprenticeship program, the answer is no, with one exception - a slight exception - in that I have had consultation with some of the proprietors in the garment industry and further steps are being taken to try and have more facilitie s for training in plants . And then, as I mentioned also, the question of provision of day care centres and the likes of that is under more active consideration at the present time.

And there' s one other area that has just come to mind as to trying to assist in the industry, to have workers, is to have an extension of a sort of rotating shift basis in employment; rather than the factories remaining open, say from 8 till 4, or 8 to 5, that possibly a more scattered number of hours - four on, four off, and the likes of that, can be es tabli shed to attract more of the working mothers and the homemakers so that they can participate in the industry. Outside of that, that's about all the information I can give my honourable friend re garding that precise aspe ct. MR.

SHERMAN: Well, about this time last year and earlier there were representations, at least informally made by the garment industry, with the Minister, with the department, I believe, for the importation, the immigration of offshore workers to fill the job openings that existed at that time. Has that question and the debate that surrounded that particular represe ntation been resolved by the department and by the industry? Can the Minister advise whether that situation, that condition and that debate has been resolved satisfact orily by the department and by the industry?

There was a fairly strong request from the industry for the immigration or importation of offshore workers to meet labour needs in the field. At that time the Minister expressed a general disinclination to go that route provided the problems could be resolved through the labour force here, and I'm just wondering if that debate has been resolved satisfactorily be t ween the department and the industry. MR. PAULLEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I certainly had disagreements with the industry insofar as offshore workers . I haven' t changed. I still say that there is a greater

Jb.ne 4, 1975 3495 SUPPLY - LABOUR (l\IIR. PAULLEY cont'd) .•... responsibilit y than the industry has been prepared to accept, for onshore training, and possibly, I don't know, I haven' t the answers at my fingertips, but possibly one of the reasons for the lessened number of job vacanc ies at the present time is because possi bly - again ... I can't support this - that the industry has pulled up their socks slightly. But, Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to point out to my honourable friend that the position that I took as Minister of Labour in dealing with the garment industry and the recruitment of offshore people to come into the garment industry has now been adopted as policy by the federal authority. The federa l authority now has agreed with, and announced, that the policy that I suggested and gave into in Manitoba a year or so ago is now federal policy. At that particular time it appeared that I may be - to use the quotation of my former colleague Morris Grey, "A Voice Calling in the Wilderness", I might have been.

But nonetheless, the policy at the federal level now is similar to that that I had before . Now, if as a result of that, there has been some pulling up of socks, to use that expres sion, within the industry, well and good. It may be that they have to pull up their socks a li ttle more . It may well be that there has to be a greater impetus in the improve ment within their local fact ories with the provision of those commodities and amenities that I have discussed, Mr. Chairman. Outside of that, there' s nothing more I can really say to my honourable friend. l\IIR, SHERMAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I suggest that if the policy of the Federal Government in this respect has become parallel to the policy enunciated by the Minister of Labour, or has in effect become the same kind of policy, it's for a different reason. It's because the unemployment problem nationally, federa lly has caused the Federal Government to take a look at the kinds of things that need to be done in the manpower field to get people off the unemployment rolls.

But what we're concerned with here in Manitoba is an entirely different situation, although indeed there has to be anticipatory action taken against the possibility of unemployment.

But what we have been concerned with here is an industry that has required people to fill jo bs to maintain its viability, and the Minister has assured us that those jobs could be filled from, le t us say, local sources, from provincial sources, and if those jobs are not being filled from provincial sources then a different kind of policy should justifiably obtain, has nothing to do with the federal position which is one of fighting desperately now to try to stop that unemployment roll from climbing higher. So I think that we're comparing apples and oranges in that area if we get into that kind of an argument.

All I want is some satisfaction from the Minister that indeed there are some tangible results emanating from his policy, his philosophy applied to this region and this province, and that is that the needs of that industry can be met without going to offshore workers. If they can't be met without going to offshore workers, then I think he should go to offshore workers in order to keep that industry healthy and viable . That's all I'm asking from him. l\IIR, CHAffiMAN: Resolution 73(a)--p assed. (b)--pas sed. Re solution 73.

Resolved that there be granted to Her Ma jest y a sum not exceeding $214, 700 for Labour --passed. Resolution 74(a)-- the Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PA TRICK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wish to bring a few points under Labour Relations and wish to deal in a few areas, and I know that we've heard from the Minister sometime ago that he talked ab out what's happened to the world and the workers and employers and things have gone all haywire, and perhaps be may have had a point at that time. But really I think that what has caused that, Mr.

Chairman, is the high rate of inflation, and really what has happened is that the employees are asking for more and because of inflation it's pret ty tough for small industries to keep in a profit position, and they're reluctant to accept the very high request s by the unions and the wage ea rners and really to perhaps nowadays think of compulsory arbitration or making strikes illegal or even illegal in es sential services, Mr. Chairman, or outline, say, secondary picketing, requesting the courts to use injunctions in a way of ordering people to go back to work.

I think it's sort of things that are in the past, and very much in the past, and I think that we can' t even talk about those things because there's no way we can bring such things back today, because it just will not be accepte d. And I do not accept such things. So, Mr . Chairman, we have to accept that there's no way that any employee, and in fact we would not accept this type of legislation. So I think that we have to look for some

3496 June 4, 1975 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. PATRIC K cont'd) ..... other area in a way of having peace in the area, and my first observation would be that the reason that we've had so much problem, and it's not that it's something gone wrong with the business and the people themselves, I think it's the high rise in inflation and the high cost of living that has brought this about. On one side you have the unions asking for pre tty high wages; on the other hand the employers looking at it and saying, well, look we can afford to give so much, otherwise we can' t stay in busine ss.

This I think has been the great cause and to go back to the era where we, you know, outlawed picketing or having courts prevent injunction, I think that's in the past and I think we must forget about that, and even I would say in es sential service s. The point that I wish to bring to the Minister is in the area of decert ification, and I know that we require 50 percent of the eligible members of a bargaining unit in support of certification which, you know, this is fine . But on the other hand, we also have the situation where you needed 50 percent for decertificat ion as well.

I know the Minister of Labour remembers quite well when he brought the legislation and we reduced that, the Statutory Rule was change d from 50 to 35 - when the application for decert ification need only be supported by 35 percent. In my opinion I think this has led to some ill feeling, to inter-union problems and inter-union welfare and unsettling to both the union and the employer. And I think it has brought some difficulties.

So has the Minister had any experience, I'm sure he has, and complaints from both management and labour, because I understand that even the management, some people, the management said, well look, it's caused us more trouble than good, perhaps we should have the 50 percen t requirement for decert ification as well as for certification. I hope that the Mini ster would give me some information on that par t.

The other issue that I wish to raise with the Minister, and I don't know just what his stand is, I think it was quite neutral and so was mine for many years in respect to national and international unions and I don' t hold any, you know, anything for international or national union s, but in the last while when you have been watching the labour scen e and problems pretty closely, I just wondered if some of the international unions are they really of that great assist ance, and the reason I'm asking the Minister because I know he hasn' t pushed either one - he 'd say well let the employees decide and that's fine .

But in view of the fact what has happene d in this country, what has happened say four years ago, with the unions in the United States, it was the union that forced Nixon, at that time President Nixon, to impose the 10 percen t surcharge on all the goods going to the United States. And it wasn't the politicians, it came from the union . As a result it laid off many people in Canada, and as a result the Canadian Government had to bring in legislation immediately to counteract that so that the industries would keep people employed. So that's just an indication, and through that measure Mr.

Ch airman, it could be much more severe if you put 10 or 15 percent surcharge on everything you can lay off a quarter of a million or half a million people in no time. So it is a serious - it hasn' t happene d, but I know that four years it has happened, when the 10 percen t surcharge was imposed, and the pre ssure came from the unions in the States at that time .

The other question we have and probably the Minister may be much more familiar with this recently, where in New York, or a New York based union convin ced the Abitibi workers in Ontario not to accept a 25 percent wage increase with some cos t-of-living allowance . That was just not too long ago, and still that same union on the other side accepted a 9 percent wage settlement the first year.

So now when we really look at what is happening - and I'm beginning to wonder just, you know, not only the rank and file workers, but what are we supposed to think of the situation like that, because I'm sure that the Minister maybe have the pre ss clippings and I would say that they must have been accurate . I haven 't got it with me, I wish I would, but I did make a note, I thought I'd bring. it to the Minister's attention under his estimates.

But I do remember specific ally where it was 25 percent in Canada the one year, incre ase, which was the recomm endations from ••• the inter national in the States came and said don' t accept it, and here they accepted I believe some thing like 9 percen t the first year, 10 the second and I forget what - 9 percent again in the third year . So this just, you know, doesn't hold water, Mr . Chairman, and I would like to hear from the Minis ter in that area. The third point is in the area, we're talking labour relations, and I mentioned that

June 4, 1975 3497 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. PATRIC K cont'd) ....• in my opinion that the strikes were not just a straight result of the people going haywire - and I know that the Minister used that word in the House here about a month ago when he said "something has gone wrong with all the people". I think it's because of inflation, you know, the cost of doing business on one side and inflation to the workers on the other side . But the area that I wish to raise, and that is the government employees conciliation officers and I would like the Minister to tell us how many conciliation officers he's got.

It seems that during a negotiation, you know, period, to what extent are the conciliation officers involved in a sort of a mutually acce ptable collective unders tanding bet ween both parties. How effective are these ? Because the information that's coming to me that, No. 1. there is not sufficient conciliation officers that would really be of assistance to both parties. And secondly, I understand that they' re not t:rained well enough, that there's not enough experience . The information comes from two sides. Not only from the labour side, but it also comes from the management side .

So I would like to know how many there is and you know, surely the Minister must give us some .•. perhaps their experience in how effective they are . I think, in my opinion, that we require more conciliation officers, better trained, better paid and to be more effe ctive, because I'm not so sure, I'm not so sure, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister has really recognized the importance of really well trained and good conciliation officers. I'm really interested to hear from the Minister in that area.

I know that in one other area that the Minister has an opportunity to use the, I gue ss it's 112 of the Act, where the Minister does not have to exercise any right to get involved or doesn't need to get involved in any negotiation agreements and what• s going on. But he has under the Act the right to seek, or get information, and I think that the Minister should - he should not intervene, but certainly he should be informed and should be in a position to know exactly where the situation is and how close to the agreement are the two parties, or how far apart they are.

This concerns me because some of the quest ions that we asked the Minister in respect to the, I believe it was the university strike, and the Minister did say well, look I can't interfere. And I agree .

But the point is he wasn't able to give us any other information and I think that the Minister must be very much informed on just exactly what's going on so that he can sort of assess the situation, how serious it is, and if he has to refer foe matter to the Industrial Inquiry Commission which would give him the power to investigate the matter and any problems that there are, I think that this is the kind that would help both sides to the agreem.ent. I think that we would have perhaps maybe less proble ms.

I appreci ate it's a difficult time, we had the strike at the university, we had strikes at Flyers, we had the doctors and the nurses and so on, and again I know it's not because of any le gislation, but because inflation has been so rapid and so great that these people feel that they're justified to the increases, on the other hand, in a public service the govern ment's concerned how much money he can spend and the private sector, the corporations, saying okay, how much can we afford to spend to be able to stay in busin ess. So it is a proble m.

But I think that there is areas that the Minister must resort to, conciliation officers, to keep himself informed what's happening. And again I'm going to say to the Minister, I don't know if he was lis tening when I started my comments, that I warned him that I'm not prepared to accept what we used to have, such as compulsory arbitration or have strikes in ess ential services called ille gal, or to outlaw picketing, have courts use injunctions for, you know, employees to return to work, I think this is something that is in the past and we'll never have agai n really, so that's accept ed.

So I say we have to strive and see where we can imp;rove the present conciliation procedures, the present negotiation, the present better understanding. I know I had one area that I wanted to introduce this session which I didn't, it was Institute of Industrial Relations . If anything else, the Institute would do ... I know that somebody will say well what is the cost.

I believe there's one in Ontario that there is no cost involved, it does work on the basis - on paid basis for labour and management and it's doing a tremendous function, at least the employee s would know what is the cost, what it'll mean to the consumer by asking 20 percent increase, I'm using the example 20 percent increase, what does it mean to the consumer, what does it mean to the industry that will be affected? Can they pay ? Because in many cases, as the Minister knows, not in Manitoba so much, there 's industries closed, they just walked away, they say well this is it, we can't stay in busin ess anymore.

So it is a serious proble m.

3498 June 4, 1975 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. PATRIC K cont'd) .•••• So instead of having what we had years ago, I say we have to start looking for new ways and new avenue s in the way of negotiation, in the way of using our conciliation officers to a better advantage , and my information is they're definitely not used to the advantage they should be at the present time, that we need more, that they could be of greater assis tance in the nego tiations than there is at the present time . So I think it's an area of labour relations, Mr. Chairman, we can spend hours and hours but I jus t pose some of the, which I think are key questions at the present time. . • . . • continued nex t page

June 4, 1975 3499 SUPPLY - LABOUR MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Jenkins) : The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Labour began his stewardship of his department and this field this year at the outset of this legislative session by saying, and I think I'm quoting him accurately, "that this is a hell of a year to be the Minister of Labour". And I don't think anybody in this Chamber would disagree with that.

I think that the Minister has faced one of the most onerous burdens of administrative responsibility that exists in the government today in having to cope with the troubled labour rel ations, industrial relations field at this time.

And he faces problems, as the Member for Assiniboia has rightly pointed out, that far exceed his authority and his ability and his department's capacity to solve, because they are problems that are created by economic and financial conditions, they 're problems that are created by external conditions over which a provincial jurisdiction in the field of labour, such as the Manitoba Department of Labour, simply has no control.

So at the outset I would say in consider ing this area of his estimates that we sympathize with the statement that he made at the begin ning of the session, and we agree that it has been a hell of a year for anybody to be Minister of Labour and we are the first to acknowledge that it's been a very heavy burden for this Minister to carry, and would be for any Minister to carry. Having said that, Mr.

Speaker, I think that we have a right to say, and the Minister would agree, that as long as he is the Minister of Labour that in his own conscientious way he would feel a sense of responsibility on his part to face up to the challenges that exist in the field and do what he can, even though many of them are beyond mere provincial jurisdictional control, beyond mere provincial jurisdictional solution, do what he can to bring peace and harmony to the labour scene and to give leadership to this Legislature , to this province, in that troubled field.

So in this area we are most anxious to have an accounting from the Minister of his stewardship in the field and an up-to-date assessment of just how he feels this extremely dif ficult year has gone for him as Minister of Labour and what he sees on the immediate horizon. There are some specifics that I would like to mention at this time just before yielding the floor to the Minister on this particular resolution, Mr. Chairman, some of which have been referred to by the Member for Assiniboia.

One in particular is the area of conciliation and conciliation offic ers, and I want to make the point at the outset that I believe the Department of Labour of the Province of Manitoba has done an excellent and a highly laudable job in meeting the difficulties in the labour field in general, in the labour relations field in general, in the strike field in general with which it has been confronted in the past year.

I know that in the over all, the vast, vast majority of contracts that have come up for renegotiation in :the past year and in any year, are solved amicably and peacefully , are solved harmoniously through arbitration, and don't make the headlines; and don't make the sensationalism that the unresolved quarrels and that the strikes produce.

So let us begin by saying that in 95 percent of the cases where contracts have come up for renewal, the labour community in our province, and the management community in our province, and the Department of Labour in our province have succeeded in effecting harmonious new contracts that have produced no dislocation in the econ omy whatever and on the contrary have pr oduced stability and progre ss.

Some of this has been due in no small measure to the conciliation off icers of the depart ment that have been made available in actual disputes or potential dispute situations, and I think that one conciliator in particular should be singled out for recognition, for the record, Mr .

Chairman - and I do so with hesitancy because I don't want to over look the others in the concil iation branch of the Departm ent who have worked so strenuously and so loyally to effect settle ments in strike threatened or strike hindered areas - but one in particular I think should be recognized for the record and those colleagues of his in the department can bask hopefully in the recognition of Mr. Lou Plantje, who I know has given service above and beyond the call of normal duty in this field.

I know that with respect to one strike threat in particular in very recent weeks which could have worked extreme hardships on consumers in Manitoba - and I refer to the strike threat that faced grocery stores and retail food outlets in recent weeks - in that field in particular where there were extremely difficult and arduous negotiations, and extremely rigid positions at the outset, and where the highest degree of delicacy and skill and training in this field was necessary to produce a solution, that conciliator was there, working around the clock and he produced the solution that at the time amounted to little less than a miracle, and Mr.

Chairman, and headed off a strike in that very importa nt consumer goods field. So I want to recognize what that particular conc iliator, Mr. Plantje, did and what his

3500 June 4, 1975 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) . . . . colleagues in that division of the department have done. We couldn 't work our way through or fight our way through these contractual difficulties without them. But going beyond that point to the criticism that the Member for Assiniboia raised, I think there is a justification for asking whether the department has enough, has sufficient concil iators, but what is being done in terms of training and prepara tion in rec ruiting of concilia tors to take on this highly neces sary professi onal work.

Are there conciliators of sufficient calibre, sufficient training, to do the kinds of delicate jobs req uiring the kinds of excellence that have been done in such situations as those I 've just referred to. How would we fare, how would we be equipped in this provin ce, Mr. Chairman, if there had been three strike threats in three criticial areas all going on at the same time, for example, as that in the retail food store field. Would we have had enough conciliat ors to cope with those emergency condition s ? Is there a program that is going to produce more ?

Is there a program of upgrading that will enable those who are in the fi.eld now to continue to expand their knowledge and their excellen ce ?

This is a highly important, highly critical area in the field of labour relations and I would hope that whatever savings are being effected, whatever budgetary belt tightening is being ef fected across the whole spectrum of governme nt spending, there is not one nickel or one dime being chipped away from appropriations in that area, because we do need as many well trained, top calibre concil iators as we can get and we do need training to continue to ensure that they are equipped to do their jobs and that they're equipped with the latest weaponry and the latest armaments in the field of labour relations and labour concilia tion.

The Minister could I think, in addition to relying more heavily on the kinds of input and expertise that should be provided through that area of his department, could be relying more heavily on some other weaponry that he has at his disposal and has shown no inclination to use over the past year, Mr. Chairman - and I refer to the Standing Committee on Industrial Re lations of this Legislature which has not been convened to deal with anything in the field of labour or industrial relations for approximately one year.

I know that there was a period when the Minister was not enjoying the best of health when it was impossible for him to take any initiative in calling that committee into action, but nonethe less, there has been a period of a year, as I say, since that committee last sat and faced with the problem and faced with the conditions on the labour scene and the industrial relations scene which are familiar to all of us in 1975, I would have thought that that committee could ha ve provided some backup, some assist ance and some opportunity for exchange of views between the three segments which make up any labour community , nam ely labour, managem ent, and government.

The Minister, a year ago, advised us, and indeed it was part and parcel of some legis lation that was passed in this House, that a specia l advisory committee to his Ministry was going to be set up to help him in the field of labour generally.

There are, I believe, a number of appointments which if they haven 't been formally made to that committee, they hav e been considered and at least informally approved in the Minist er 's mind, but there are still some nominations and appointments pending and the committee itself, to my knowledge, has not been formally const ituted, struck, or put into action yet, and I would think in this, once again, in this troubled year, in this troubled area, that this Minister who has the workload that he has to carry , would have found it extremely prudent and judicious to get that committee geared up and going and in action and available to himself to deal with the problems confr onting the de partment generally.

So I sympathize on the one hand with the fact that this has been a hell of a year to be Minister of Labour, I sympathize with the Minister on the one hand on that point, Mr. Chairman, but I ask at the sa me time, on the other hand, why has he not used some of the backup support, some of the weaponry that is rightfully available to him through these committees that either exist or that have been promised, and through the kinds of additional strengthening and rein forcing of the concil iation area that exists in his department.

Those are specific areas that I would hope the Minister will be able to address himself to in the next few minutes, Mr. Ch airman. And while considering that general range of questioning could I ask the Minister to give us some kind of indication of what he and his department are doing with respect to the new techniques in bargaining procedures, whether he has himself with a task force, with advisers, sat down and come to any conclusions with respect to the ad vis ability of new techniques in bargaining, what he and his advisers have come to in the way of

June 4, 1975 3501 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) ... . conclusions on the final offer selection technique, for example, what he and his advisers have come to in the way of conclusions or even formativ e conc lusions in the so-called "search for a better way" than the strike as a me ans of solv ing industrial dis putes.

Not only legislators but commentators and observers and labour spokesmen and general citizens have in this jurisdiction and throughout the western world, in recent years, in suggest ing ve ry voca lly and very validly that in some respects, there are conditions and situation now where the strike as a weapon of solving an industrial dispute is a weapon that carries with it as much dislocation , as much disadvantage as advantage for many persons, including oftentimes the workers themselves.

As a consequence of that I think there is an intellectual mind set which sort of says, we've got to find something better than the strike, and it's a pr ofession of a kind of point of view that people can say very easily as a point of argument, people can ex amine very easily on the level of argument, but there comes a time when there has to be some action taken by leaders in the field, like Ministers of Labour, in co ncert with spokesmen for the labour movement and for management and other colleagues in government, when some action has to be taken to realistically seek out the truth and seek out the possibilities and the viabilities of that kind of an idea.

Is there another method, a better method, of solving industrial disputes? Are there reasons for examining that whole concept of the strike as a weapon for solution of these disputes ? It may be that there is no better way. It may be that this really is the best of a bad situation , the best thing, the most perfect solution in an imp erfect world , but knowing the Minister 's penchant for seeking improvement in wide areas of his personal life and public life, I would hope that he is not pessimistic about the possibility of perhaps coming up with some kind of tangible solution other than mere words in this field.

Now, I am not suggesting that of all those who are involved in the labour relations field in the western world, that the responsibility rests with this Labour Minister for producing that solution. MR . ENNS: I think it should, though. MR . SHERMAN: My colleague from Lakeside says he thinks it should.

I wouldn't be that tough on this Minister of Labour, although I know I've said some highly critical things of him in the past and probably will again in the future, but I do think that he can take an initiative and has demonstrated in other areas that he likes to take the initiative on challenges of this kind, that he could take the initiative with his counterparts in other jurisdictions, in seeking out the answer to that question. Are there new techniques in bargaining that can be applied effectively ?

Are there other weapons in this field, other than the final resort to striking, that can be applied effectively ? We're looking, really, for some leadership and for some hope, Mr. Chairman , in the Province of Manitoba, in the region of Western Canada, and in the country of Canada as we wrestle ou

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-2-112
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Volume / chapter	30th 2nd hansardpdf 112.pdf
Language	en
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