LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 27 May, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon . M. Phillips: Presen ting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Stand ing and Spe ci al Commit tees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourab le Ministe r of , Economic Security. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker , I'd like t o table the Suppleme ntary Information for Legislative Review 1987- 88 Estimates of the Department of Employment Services and Econ omic Security .

MADAM SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of : Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I have a statement I'd lik e to make . Madam Speak er, it was with deep regret that I must inform the Hou se of two recent child deaths which may , be connected to the Nort hwest Child and Family Services Agency. One death appears to have been caused by sudden 1 infant death syndrome , but the circ u mstances surroundi ng the death deeply concern me. I have asked the Chie f Medical Exam iner to investigate this death . The second death is being reviewed by the police at this time.

These recent deaths , following the deaths last spring, cause me great anguish . As you're all aware, we have been very concerned about family violence . We have taken several steps in the pas t year to strengthen this service system: 1. A child abuse review by Dr. Eric Sigurdson and and Prof essor Gran t Rei d was established . They reviewed the ent ire system. These were my instructions . They were tough-minded and I have accepted most of their recom mendations . 2. Th e deaths were revi ewed in detail by our directorate. These reports are currently being tabled.

The repor ts were held bac k becaus e of the crimina l char ges that were laid following the deaths . As these are becoming available, the ability of Northwes t Child and Family Services becomes more questionable . With the two deaths in protection familie s, who had received services from Northwest Child and Family Services, these concerns were heightened . My officials informed me yesterday that they no longer had confidence in the management of Northwest Child and Fam ily Services , and I subsequently directed the following course of action .

Under the authority of The Child and Family Services Act, I have asked the Board of Northwest to cooperate with a provincial investigation. I have appointed Professor Grant Reid of the Univ ersity of Manitoba to lead a review of the agency's proc edures and practices . I have directed the board to susp end, as of May 26, the executive director of the age ncy, Tim Maloney, during this investigation.

I have also asked the board to accep t the secondment of Ken Maskiw as acting executi ve director of Northwest Child and Family Services , and any oth er per sons as may be required to carry out the dut ies and functions of the agency. Ken Maskiw is currently a senior polic y consultant for Community Services , and a forme r dep uty dire cto r of Child Welfare . I have appointed John Ross as director of Child and Family Services for Community Services , replacing Ernie Hasiuk. Mr. Hasiuk has been reassigne d to other duties.

Senior staff have been directed to review the role and organization of the Child and Family Services Directorate . Mr. Ross has been serving as executive director of Rural Health and Community Services, and has a long and distinguished background in child welfare. The actions I have just announced have not been taken lightly. I continue to support regionalized child and family services. It is for this reason that I have acted immediately to deal with the prob lem and take corrective steps with Northwes t Child and Fami ly Services agency.

These steps have been discussed with the board of the agency and they will have my full support and that of my staff to ensure the ongoing functioning of the agency . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member fo r Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Madam Speaker . We welcome this statement by the Minister . As a matter of fact, we've been looking forward to a statement such as this for a good many months, hoping that some action was going to be taken into the deaths of these two children. I must remind the Minister tha t it was last week when the Member for St.

Norbert asked the Attorney-General to have a medical examiner investigate this case . So we certainly have been after the Minister on many, many an occasion to obtain some of the answers which obviously were needed as a result of these two deaths . I would just like to say to the Minis ter, now that she has taken some action , that she's going to try to find out wha t really happened and what really needs to be done, now is the time for her to set some standards , to set some policies, so that these agenci es will know what the policy of government is.

These standards and these policies , Madam Speaker , have not been coming forward from this Minister and, as a result of this, has led to all kinds of confusion within the department. So we're pleased that the Minis ter is going to be takin g some action , tha t she's going to have an inquiry into these death s and hopefully , as a result of this , actio n is going to be taken which is going to prevent furthe r incidents such as this from happening . 2458

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. A. MACKLING introduced, by leave, Bill No. 42,

An Act to amend The Construction Industry Wages Act ; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les salaires dans l'industrie de la construction. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS introduced, by leave , Bill No. 44,

An Act to amend The Coat of Arms, Floral Emblem and Tartan Act, Loi modifiant la Loi concernant les amoiries , l'embleme floral et le tartan du Manitoba ; and Bill No. 45,

An Act to amend The Lotteries Foundation Act, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Fondation manitobaine des loteries. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 72 students from Grade 5 from the Southwood School under the direction of Mr. Henry Dueck . The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for La Verend rye. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Workers Compensation Board - Legislative Review Commission Report MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board . The Minister has had now for some two weeks the final printed copy of the Legislative Review Commission Report, the commiss ion chaired by Mr. Brian King , investigating the Workers Compensation Board. My question to the Minister is: Has he completed his review of this report? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for Workers Compensatio n. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, as the Leader of the Opposition knows, we have had a conversation on this subject.

The Workers Compens ation has not been reviewed since 1957 so the report is a lengthy report. We have received all parts of it now and the report is being typeset. No , I have not had an opportunity to review all parts of the report . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , perhaps the Minister needs some people to help him read the report. Legislative Review Committee Report - tabling of MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question for the Minister is: When will he then table it so that others, 2459 in prepartion for the Estimates Review of his department , can rev iew that report and prepare themselves for an oppo rtunity to debate it ? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, the question has been on previous occasions as to when we would be tabling the report. I told the Leader of the Opposition at that time when we have completed the printing , which we suspect will be done within about two or th ree week s, then we will be tabling the report at that time.

Workers Compensation Board Study - purpose of study MR . G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , that 's not sat isfac tory. Madam Speaker , the Workers Compensation Board is . .. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G. FILMON: . is undertaking a variety of reviews. Most recently, I understand , they 've contracted with Prof . Greg Mason 's firm , University of Manitoba Research Limi ted, to do another study into the Workers Compensation Board. I wonder if the Ministe r can ind icate what is the purpose of the study. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speake r, as we have said on many occas ion s, that rehabilitation is one of the most important parts of the Workers Compensat ion, an area that was neglected during the years of the Tory administration. We have made many changes ; there was a lot of reform carried out in the whole area of rehabilitation; and there 's need for critique , to see if the rehabilitation is being carried out in a manner that is proper for the inju red workers and also for indust ry. The Workers Compensation Board , themselves , have asked for a study to be carried out by Mr.

Greg Mason from the University of Manitoba, to see how it's being perceived by the people who are directly affected by the Workers Compensation, to see what type of results we are having in rehabilitation being delivered by Workers Compensation . Workers Compensation Board Study - completion date MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, when will this study and report be completed and will the report be made public? HON. H.

HAFIAPIAK: Madam Speaker, it is my understanding that the repo rt is nea r completion ; it's an internal repor t that was asked for by the Workers Compensation Board , and what they do with it is an internal matter . I don 't think that it is necessary to make the report public.

' ~-.: Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 Workers Compensation Board Study - ministerial authority to release MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Minister indicating that he does not have the authority to receive that repor t from the Board and to make it public? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, as I had indicated earlier, the report was asked for by the Worke rs Compenstion Board, and if there is a need for making some policy decisions because of the results of Dr. Greg Mason 's report , then we'll be addressing it by addressing that policy .

The review committee is looking at all aspects of the Workers Compensation Board's operations, and rehabilitation is one of the areas that they 're looking at. If it requires some policy changes to make some corrective measures, then certainly we'll be addressing it via the policy route. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, given that the Workers Compensation Board has an $84 million deficit, and tha t most Manitobans are concerned about the policies and the operation of the board, why will he not make that report public? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , it is obvious that the Leader of the Opposition has forgotten of his years in government. While he was in government, if they would have addressed the whole problem of assessment in those years, he admitted himself, that if they would have addressed that whole area of assessment during the Seventies, there would be no unfunded liability at this time.

If they would have addressed the area of assessment like they did in the Province of Saskatchewan, and increased rates, instead of reducing the rates .during the time when Workers Compensation right across the country were increasing assessment, then we would not be in the position that we are . So he has to accept some responsibility for the Workers Compensation being in a funding position as they are at this time. Ministerial Statement re infant deaths - request identity of same M ADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norber t. MR. G.

MERCIER: Thank you Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Community Services. Madam Speaker, I would ask the Minister if she would identify the two infant deaths that she is referring to in her statement today? HON. M. SMiTH : I'd like to take that as notice and just check out the procedure I should use for identifying names; but I'll undertake to have a response tomorrow. Infant deaths - re role of Minister in decision MR. G. MERCIE R: Madam Speaker, was the Minister of Community Services present, or participated in, or co nsulted with respect to the decision that she announced today? HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker , I was , ye~terday , en route to a Justice and Correction Ministers' , Meeting I I in the Maritimes, but I was in phone contact with my staff. I was aware of the first case and the meetings they were planning with the boar d, and the options that they were looking at. When they informed me of the second case , we conferred and quickly came to the conclusion that we should take the stronger action and I undertook to return today in order to deal with the issue here, but we were in regular communicatio n yesterday . SIDS infant death - date of request for inquest MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, the case referred to in the statement where an infant died as a result of, allegedly sudden infant death syndrome , occurred on May 12, as I understand it. I had asked the Attorney ­ General last week to have the medical examiner conduct an inquest , and he did provide me with a preliminary report on Friday. I would ask her, when did she request an inquest into that case? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I asked the Attorney-General's advice and his init ial response was on Monday, I think it was, that the police indicated that there wasn 't evidence to proceed .

However, I said to him that I thought that there was sufficient concern that I wanted to go ahead anyway. I thought that our general response to the Child Abuse Review is that we should make use of the Chief Medical Examiner in these cases. It would help give a quick assessment of the situation, so I asked him to proceed with the inques t. Child Abuse - investigation last fall MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, inasmuch as believe that certainly one of these cases involves a family that has been before the courts during the past few months on a matter which I raised sometime last year, and suggested to the Minister that the files were being kept closed, that no one was allowed access to them, and that there appeared to be a cover-up. That request was met with a letter from Mr. Maloney's solicitor to me indicating that they were going to sue me for defamation . But I would ask the Minister , what investigation she did last fall into that matter? HON. M.

SMITH: I think, again, that we have the fact that there was similar, same family persons involved, there were different children involved . The case from last fall was the one where it was going through the courts and also we had an internal review of the procedures , and that's the one that I've referred all along, that we would not make public until the cour t process had concluded. But we were conducting our own internal review. The role of the Chief Medical Examiner, I think is the additional support or assistance to us in reviewing these cases and that was recommended by the Child Abuse Review team .

In some cases, the examiner did proceed on his own. He said he had that authority , but tha t he wou ld appreciate it being regularized , and we have indicate d to him that we, too, would like to see that happen, so 2460

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 there's no misunderstanding between the differen t groups involved as to the role that he should play. Child Abuse Review - report and action taken MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, did the Minister then receive an investigative report or review last fall and, if so, did she take any action on it at that time? HON. M. SMITH: The department were conducting their review but didn 't give me a final review until the court process was complete . Again, the recommendation that we had was that we shouldn't jeopardize the court process.

I will ask again to have the process by which reviews are made in this case clarified for all concerned, and the timetabling of it, so that all the people involved in these tragic events, and the review of them , should they occur, are operating with a common understanding as to what the review process is, who is involved, and when it is appropriate for the review to be made public. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, why did the Minister not have access and review the report as soon as it was completed? Why was the decision made to wait until the end of the criminal process?

Surely it could have been reviewed internally without prejudicing any criminal proceeding and some action could have been taken months ago. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I think the member is inferring that action related to that child was somehow directly related to the second child, or that there were other actions we could have taken that we didn't. As I say, I would like to get an update on the status of these reports and bring that to the House tomorrow because, again, we have been following the proceeding; if there is a direction action we should take, we take it, but the public report is another matter .

Infant deaths - tabling of reviews MR. G. MERCIER: When will the Minister table the internal reviews with respect to these infant deaths? HON. M. SMITH: I will bring an update on where we're at with those reports tomorrow. I think we have tabled one; I understand the second one, the court case is complete, and our review should be along very shortly. But I will undertake to update on all six. Mr. Tim Maloney - basis for hiring MR. G. MERCIER: On what basis did the Minister hire Mr. Maloney in the first case? What were his qualifications? HON. M.

SMITH: Child and Family Services are delivered by agencies mandated by the government. It's the responsibility of the boards to do the hiring. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, would the Minister not confirm that she announced the hirings of the first executive directors of the Child and Fami ly Serv ices agencies? 2461 HON. M. SMITH: The announcement would have been where all the boards had done their hiring and a join t announcement was made, but we did not hire the executive directors . Gowler, Mitch - date of order for inquest MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. A.

BROWN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Community Services and Corrections. My question is: When was an inquest ordered into the death of Mitch Gowler? HON. M. SMITH: I consulted with the Attorney-General again and the police and the first reaction was that there was not evidence and an inquest would not be productive. I, again, asked the Attorney-General to pursue it because I thought that it was important that on such a case we have the advantage of as much information as we could get.

But, again, the police are normally the individuals who do the initial investigation and make the recommendation for an inquest or not . MATTER OF PRIVILEGE MR. A. BROWN: Madam Speaker, I rise on a matter of privilege, which _is going to be followed by a substantive motion. On Monday, the 25th of May, Madam Speaker, I asked a question of the Minister: "Has the Minister ordered an inquest into the death of Mitch Gowler, who was drowned, while he was looking after a handicapped person"?

At that time, Madam Speaker, the Minister replied : "Madam Speaker, I am consulting with the Attorney­ General; one of the problems had to do with whether or not there was evidence available, but I am consulting with the Attorney-General as to whether an inquest is appropriate." Now, Madam Speaker, I had a rather confused Mr. Albert Gowler come to see me, who had received a letter - and who, incidentally, is the uncle of Mitch Gowler - who had a received a letter on May 20, five days prior to which I asked this question in the House. In this letter it says: "Dear Mr.

Gowler: Please be advised that the Provincial Chief Medical Examiner, Dr. Peter Markesteyn, has called an inquest into the death of the late Mitchell Gowler . "Should you require information pertaining to the date, time and place of the inquest, please contact the Senior Crown Attorney at telephone no. 945-3265 ." Madam Speaker, it's evident that this inquest had been called some time prior to my asking this question in the House. I will table this letter so that members can peruse it.

Madam Speaker , my motion of privilege is this : I move, seconded by the Member for Minnedosa , THAT this House do refer the statement of May 25, 1987, made by the Minister of Community Services to the Stand ing Committee of Privileges and Elections , to determine whether the Minister misled the House and whether she is competen t

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 to remain in her position as Minister of Comunity Services . MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Servi ces. HON. M. SMITH : Madam Speaker, the Chief Medical Examiner did not inform me that he had called an inquest. He has that authority, and I'm happy that he has. Aga in, it points out , I think , the necessity , when we are working in a multidisciplinary way, for people to inform one another. I receive d a copy of the letter to Mr. Gowle r from the Office of the Chief Medica l Examine r this afternoon from the Member for Rhineland.

Again, I think this points out the need to have all the actors in the system following a procedure, so that we all kn ow what is occurring. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker, if you would consult Beauchesne , Citation 19, on page 12 of the Fifth Edition , I believe you will find some conditions respecting matters of privilege .

One of the first conditions , Citation 19(1) is, "A dispute arising between two members , as to the allegations of fact, does not fulfill the conditions of parliamentary privilege." What the Member for Rhineland indicated he asked, and I think we should put the full question and answer on the record, on May 25 - if I am referencing the correc t comment of his - he was recognized and he said: "Thank you , Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Community Services . Has the Minister ordered an inquest into the death of Mitch Gowler, who was drowned while he was looking after a handicapped person?

" The Minister's answer, when she was recognized, was: "Madam Speaker , I am consulting with the Attorney­ General. One of the problems had to do with whether or not there was evidence available, but I am consulting with the Attorney-General as to whether an inquest is appropriate ." The lett er which was tabled does not indicate that the Minister had ordered the inquest; and that, in fact, was the question . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please .

May I remind the Honourable Government House Leader that any discussion on whether the motion is in orde r or not should be strictly relevant to whether the conditions are met; not the heart of the matter, the meat of the matter. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you for that advice, Madam Speake r. What I was trying to point out, and perhaps I should be more articulate, is that this is, in fact, a dispute arising between two members , as to the allegations of fact , and for that reason does not fall under the criteria required for a matter of privilege.

MADAM SPEAKER: I will take the honourable member 's motion under advisement, and report back as to whether the honourable member does or does not; has not or has met the necessary conditions for a motion of privilege. Open-custody homes - independent external evaluati on MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for River Heights . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you , Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Community Services.

Last evening I attended, in my constituency , an information session given by the Corrections Department on open custody homes; a meeting which was called at my request because of neighbou rs' concerns; and I must say, Madam Speaker, that the meeting was very positive, although all agreed it would have been even more positive had it bee n h eld before the open-custody home moved into the community .

Will the Minister inform the Hous e if there will be an independent external evaluation conducte d of open­ custody homes and tha t co mm unities and neighbourhoods, like my own , can be ensured that in fact they do work? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Serv :ces. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , the open-custody homes have been developed under the YOA; they've been quite extensively developed here. The evaluation of their success is built in, in the sense that the young person staying there must abide by the conditions or be removed from the home.

But I would be happy to discuss with the Member for River Heights what additional type of evaluation she thinks would be appropriate. I know that's one of the topics, the use of open custody and the value of them that's taking place at the Justice Ministers ' meeting today. Open-custody homes - discrepancy of information MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A supplementary question to the same Minister .

Can the Minister inform the House as to why the information that was given in the Estimates procedure last Thursday, with regard to open-custody homes, differs from the information that I was given last night by the Director of this particular program? For example, I was informed in Estimates that 44 custody homes existed; last night I was informed, 17. I was told in Estimates that it was primarily for 12- to 16-year olds and 17- and 18-year olds were rarely found in this program. Last night I was told it was for 14- to 18- year olds with the average age being 16.

Can the Minister explain why the two sets of information differ? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, the information I had was correct , to the best of my knowledge. I will undertake to take those stats . It may be a question of whether we're talking about Winnipeg area or all of Manitoba, but those were the figures provided to me by my staff and , once again, I will undertake to see what has led to this discrepancy . The information I gave in Estimates was correct to the best of my knowledge . 2462

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 Departmen t of Community Services - resignat ion of Minister MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Madam Speaker , with a new question to the Minister of Community Services . Last week , Madam Speaker , we were told in Estimates that the Minister and her department , particularly Child and Family Services, were on the right track, and she later stated publicly , on Saturday , that those of us in Opposition just did not understand . Madam Speaker , at that time she was already aware of two further deaths . Would the Minister of Community Services please resign? HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker , first a correction. In fact I was only aware of one of the deaths; the other one I did not hear about until yesterday . With regard to the services being on the right track , I think we have to have some sense of where they used to be and what has been going on in terms of broader access, greater sensitivity to Native people, a greate r range of services available , and the great increased volume of children and families who are being served . I've never claimed that the system was fully mature or without problems; I think it is in a_ developmental stage .

But I think in terms of what was and what the needs are out there , that the community-based agencies under the new act are heading in the right direction. Potash mine - tabling of study MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH : Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines . The team of Messrs . and Dombowsky was contracted by this government to do a marketing study on transportation and marketing with regard to the potential of a potash mine in the Russell area .

My question to the Minister, first of all, is the study now complete and is he going to table this study for the House? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Madam Speaker, the work done by Matrix New market is in connection with marketing , transportation, storage; it is being done as part of the overall feasibility study. Other people who are involved in that study are Kilbourne Engineering, and I believe a geological firm.

This is all part of one complete feasibility study that is being carried out by the Manitoba Potash Corporation, which is a joint venture between Canamax Resources and the Government of Manitoba . That work is still being done, I expect it will be completed sometime, either toward the end of June, or it could take until the end of July to complete that technica l feasibility study. Potash mine - Min. of Crown Investments in consultation with Min. of Energy and Mines re MR. L. DERKACH: I have a question for the Minister responsible for Crown Investments , Madam Spea ker.

In view of the fact that the Saskatchewan Potash Corporation is experiencing some very serious financial problems as a result of a depressed world market for potash, my question to the Minister is, has he been in consultation with the Minister of Energy and Mines as to whether this project in the Russell area will go ahead , and can he indicat e what his role is in this particular project ? HON. W. PARASIUK: Madam Speaker , as Minister responsible for the potash development I'm surprised that the Member for Roblin-Russell would try and play little games with this type of issue.

I thought he was serious about this matter . I thought he was interested in development potential for Roblin -Russell, but it appears that he's succumbing to his leader's little jibes and playing games with a very important issue , namely, the potential of potash development in the Roblin­ Russell area. We, in fact, hav e related this information to Cabinet , and I related information before to the Member for Roblin-Russell; and if he wants to deal with it in a serious way, we're quite prepared to , Madam Speaker .

If he wants to treat it in a triv ial frivolous way, I frankly don't even want to respond to that type of contempt uous tactic. MR. L. DERKACH: Madam Speaker , no one is more interested in seeing the development of a potash mine in the Russell area than I am. MADAM SPEAKER: Question? MR. L. DERKJ\CH: Madam Speaker , we have had very little , if any, information with regard to the development of that potash mine to date . Manitoba Hydro and Manitoba Telephones - upgrading of facilities MR. L.

DERKACH: My question to the Minister responsible for Crown Investments, since he is responsible for the total picture here, has Manitoba Hydro and Manitoba Telephone been instructed to upgrade their facilit ies in the Russell area to be able to handle the capacity of a potential potash mine in that area? HON. W.

PARASIUK: Madam Speaker , with respect to potash development, there in fact have been discussions with the railways ; there have been discussions with the gas company ; there have been discussions with the hydro-electric development company; the re have been discussions with the l ocal municipalities , Madam Speaker. All those things are being done in a systematic discipli ned way, Madam Speaker , and I'm surprised, again , tha t the Member for Roblin -Russell would try and trivialize this very important potentia l development for Roblin-Russel l. 2463

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 Potash mine - contact with municipalities MR. L. DERKACH: A final question , Madam Speaker. In view of the fact that the Minister has indicated that he has had discussions with the municipalities in the Russell area, can he tell the House when the last time was that he contacted and had direct discussio n wi th either the Chamber of Commerce or the Municipality of Russell, or the Town Counci l of Russell, with regard to the development of the potash mine in the are a? HON. W.

PARASIUK: Again , I quite clearly said that there had been discussions by the appropriate people involved with respect to these developments. I know that the person who is involved in land assembly for Canamax had had discussions with municip al people . I, in fact, had discussions with one of the representatives, probably about five or six months ago , and I indicated that when the feasibility study was completed , that I would be quite happy to come out to Roblin-Russell and have a discussion with the people at that particular time. I certainly intend to meet tha t particular commitment.

Net income flat tax effective July 1 - why delay in receiving tables MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker, all wage earners in this province, or most wage earners, will experience a significant reduction in their take-home pay in their pay cheque for the month of July, as a result of the net income flat tax that comes effective July 1. My question to the Minister of Finance, Madam Speaker: Why have employers not received new tax tables or instructions as to how to deduct this new tax, at source , at this point and time? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance .

HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I thank the member for the question on the net income tax, a tax which was endorsed by his leader in a public statemen t in December of last year. In regard to the

preamble to the quest ion, Madam Speaker , I would also just point out that the need for the revenue increases was in order to maintain and enhance services in our provin ce, unlike the approach where there's been severe reductions in education and health care by Conservatives in their approach to budget matters in the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan. In term s of why the informat ion hasn't been provided, as the member is aware , we are part of a federal­ provincia l agreement with respect to income tax.

The Federal Government is the one that administers that , on behal f of the Federal Government and on behalf of all provinces exce pt Quebec, including the Province of Manit oba. So the information flow is from the Federa l Governme nt. I will take the detailed question as notice and find out why and when that info rmation is expected to be trans mitted to employers . MR. C. MANNESS: I thank the Minister for the final com ment, which finally answered the question, Madam Speaker. MACC - Interest Rate Buy-Down Program - purchase of interes t deductible MR. C.

MANNESS: Madam Speake r, a new question to the Minister of Finance. In the Budget Address, the Minister took grea t pleasure in announcing a numbe r o f agricultural initiatives, the fifth being the Interes t Rate Buy-Dow n Program. My colleague , the Member for Virden , asked the Minister of Agriculture the other day, whethe r clien ts of MACC , who decided to exercise their option to buy down their interest costs , whether or not that purchase of interest would be tax deductibl e. The Minister of Agriculture has not responded to that question.

I woul d expect then that the Minister of Finance would have the answer to that, and I ask him now to provide that to the House. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I will consul t with the Minister of Agriculture and ensure that the answer is provided to the two membe rs that raised it. MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker , that answer isn't satisfactory. There are many farmers today , many farmers today who only have a few weeks left . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable membe r have a supplementary? MR. C.

MANNESS: . . . to make their decision, Madam Speaker, and they're looking for direct ion from this government as to whether or not tha t is an inte rest expense. When will the Minister provide that answer, then? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Soon. Provincial social allowance recipients - increase in number MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Employment Services . HON. L.

EVANS: Madam Speaker , we took as notice , a couple of questions some days ago, and I'd like to answer a question posed by the Member for Gladstone as to how many more municipal and provincial socia l assistance cases we have this year compared to last year. The average month ly caseload last year was 33,640 . This year is not complete, of course, but we anticipate approximately a 2. 7 percent increase.

I might add , Madam Speaker, that the basic reason for the increase , as far as we understand, is that there are increasing numbers of disabled people living in the community , both mentally and physically disabled; and, secondly, there is an increasing number of sole suppo rt parents who are on our welfare roll s, as well. I would advise , however, Madam Speaker , that the percentage of the population on welfare in Man itoba is considerably lower than other regions.

In Canada , as of March 1986, 7.4 percen t of the population was on welfare; in Western Canada, if you exclude Manitob a, it was 7.1 percent ; and in the Province of Manitoba it was 5.8 percen t. 2464

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 Provincial social allowance recipients - number employed as result of training programs HON. L. EVANS: The member also asked about the training programs of those on welfare. How many social assistance recipients who have been trained have received jobs? There's no single answer to that question because there are various programs with varying degrees of success . The New Careers Program has a nearly 100 percent success ratio, Madam Speaker .

Last year, under a more difficult program, such as, the Human Resource Oppo rt unity Program, where we have people with a lot of disadvantages , 500 went into employment. The Human Resource Opportunity Centres estimate that 660 of their clientele either went into employment or further training. Well, Madam Speaker, we have interjections from the other side, and that's exactly the point. There is no single answer to that particular question and perhaps we could discuss it in more detail on Estimates.

I might add, though , in conclusion , that we have just signed a federal-provincial agreement and we expect to train about 1,800 people on welfare per year under that joint initiative. STEP Program - job losses HON. L. EVANS: The Member from River Heights also asked a question which we took as notice regarding STEP position reduction as it affected the Legal Aid Program .

I can advise the Honourable Member that we asked each department to priorize their positions and that department , the Department of the Attorney­ General, apparently did not put Legal Aid Research as a top priority and, therefore, while they received positions for other jobs, none were made available for Legal Aid . STEP Program - cuts to NDP and Tory caucuses HON. L. EVANS: The member also asked whether the Conservative and New Democratic Party caucuses received any STEP positions .

I can advise that the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council has had their STEP positions reduced , but we did give both the PC and the NDP caucuses a STEP position . It was felt that (

a) their staff was very small; and , secondly, it was felt that the research done for the caucuses in this Legislature was equally as important, and perhaps a lot more important than research done in other government departments. AIDS - power to Dept. of Health to investigate prostitute carriers MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you , Madam Speaker . My question is for the Minister of Health .

Under provisions of The Public Health Act, does the Minister and his department have the power to investigate reports that individuals are carrying the AIDS virus and engaged in prostitution , hence spreading a communicable disease? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: We certainly have the power. I don't know what act gives us that, but I would think that any Minister who has a responsibility can investigate . AIDS - issuance of warrants to uncooperative prostitutes MRS. B. MITCHELSON: A supplementary question to the Minister of Health .

Will the Minister , as allowed in The Public Health Act ,

section 25( 1) direct his staff to pursue through the courts the issuance of a warrant for any prostitute with AIDS who refuses to cooperate with health officials? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mada m Speaker, if any such prostitute is identified , we certainly will take action. AIDS - identified prostitutes still working streets MRS. B. MITCHELSON : A final supplementary to the Minister .

Given that the provincial Department of Health is responsible for controlling the spread of communicable disease - AIDS being one of these communicable diseases - will the Minister investigate a report by the Winnipeg Police Department that identified prostitute s with the AIDS virus are still working the streets? HON. L. DESJARDINS : It's a little late; we've done that already on a number of occasions. It has been reported that •· I think it was a councillor of the City of Winnipeg , knew of such a case - that person was approached by senior staff of my department , asked to cooperate ; that person refused .

Then there was another attempt by staff in the regional work to do the same thing, to get the cooperation, and again, that has not been forthcoming , until now. I understand that I have no means, or no act, that would force me, or compel her, to talk and give me information if she doesn 't want to give it to me. National Research Building - Industry Technolocy Centre to move into MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek . MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister responsible or acting Minister of Industry at the present time.

The report today regarding the National Research Council in which it was stated that there are several companies that have committed to go into the National Research Build ing in Winnipeg , and the fact that they expect the building to be full by the end of this year. Can the Minister inform this House , whether the Department of Industry will be putting the Industry Technology Centre in that building? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Ministe r of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you , Madam Speaker . On behalf of the Minister of Industry , Trade and Technology, I'll take that question as notice for him. 2465

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 Westman Women's Shelter - amount of provincial support MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you , Madam Speake r. I've a question to the Minister responsible for the Westman Women's Shelter. Madam Speaker, can the Minister indicate how much provincial support the shelter received in the Westman area last year? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Communi ty Services. HON. M. SMITH: I think I gave that information during Estimates, but I will take it as notice and bring back that inform atio n. Westman Women's Shelter - closure due to lack of funds MR.

J. DOWNEY : Madam Speaker , in view of the fact that there is a concern that the Westman Women's Shelte r may be forced to close, or not provide a service after September, will the Minister give the assurance that her department will assure them that there will be funds available so that they continue to provide that service? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , I have not known of any problems with the Westman Shelter that would lead to cl osing. I will undertake an immediate investigation. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Madam Speaker , if her colleague, the Honourable for Brandon East were doing his work, he would have notified the Minister . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question ? MR. A. DOWNEY: Will she check with the Minister respon sib le for Employment Services as to the need for support for the Westman Women's Shelter? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Security . HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker , I'd like to advise members that I indee d met several times with peop le from the Westman Women's Shelter.

The problem lays twofold; No. 1, the Federa l Government of Canada has cut back iis services and spending on these shelters in this province in a very disastrous way; that's No. 1, so he should talk to his colleagues in Ottawa. No. 2, Madam Speaker, we provide suppor t through our department making welfare payments to these women, but we are having difficulty with the City of Brandon Welfare Department which is causing undue hard ship for these particular women . So talk to the City of Brandon. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Orde r.

Return of professional baseball MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Spo rt. Last nig ht , as part of my research activity as Opposition critic for Sport, I attended the Toronto Blue Jay's baseball game in Winnipeg . I'd like to ask the Minister responsible for Sport whethe r, in view of the attendance of some 18,300 people last night at the game, he will be doing anything to promote, assist or obtain for the City of Winnipeg the return of professional baseball. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minist er of Sport. HON .

L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speak er, I also attended the game but , unfortunately, l couldn't leave until six o'c lock so l couldn 't see Bell and the Stars play because the1 only played the one inning. It was a very interesting evening, a fun evening, and I think the crowd also showed thei r delight in seeing professional ball here . I think the offer that we made to the province, to participate , to help amateur sports, of course, and also to help in bringing Triple A ball here was well-known . This is something, if the occasion happened again , we'd certainly look at it with a lot of interest.

MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: I would like to direct the attentio n of honourable members again to the gallery where we have 75 Grade 5 students from the Dalhousie School under the direction of Miss Diane Allison , and the schoo l is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert . On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon . SPEAKER'S RULING MADAM SPEAKER: Before proceeding to Orders of the Day, I have a ruling I would like to present to the House.

On Friday, May 22, 1987, I took under advisemen t a point of order raised by the Honourable Minister for Labour as to whether other members may speak to a motion standing in another member's name, withou t leave. Our Rule 21(1) states in part that: "Questions, notices of motions by members, and orders not taken up or proceeded with when called, may be allowed to stand and retain their precedence". To assist me in determining the accepted

interpretation by the House of this rule, I have reviewe d relevant precedents and have noted that: 2466

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 (

a) On July 21, 1980, the House was informed by the Attorney-General, acting as the House Leader, that the government "Would not be allowing debate on this Bill to stand tonight." (

b) On July 22, 1980, numerous Members of the Opposition distinctly requested leave of the House to have Bills stood. (

c) On January 16, 17 and 18, 1984, Speaker Walding ruled that unanimous consent of the House is required to allow a bill to stand . (

d) On May 16, 1984, Speaker Walding ruled that, "If there is not leave, the honourable member will lose his right to speak if the debate moves to another member." (

e) On July 25, 1984, the Member for Lakeside requested, "The indulgence of the House to have this matter stand ." I am, therefore, ruling in respect to the matter raised by the Honourable Minister, in accordance with established Manitoba practice as demonstrated by references cited , that when a matter is standing in a particular member's name, if that member does not wish to speak, any other member may speak without requiring leave of the House to do so.

I am also ruling, that in such circumstances , leave of the House is required for the matter to continue to stand in the name of the member in whose name it was standing when called ; if such leave is not granted, that member will lose his or her right to speak. ERRATA MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, I rise to make a correction to Hansard .

Last Friday, Madam Speaker, in Committee of the Whole , the Chairman of the Committee called for the Ayes and the Nays on a matter of his ruling, having been challenged by members on this side of the House and, after the Ayes and the Nays were called, the Deputy Chairman said , and I quote, as recorded in Hansard for that day on page 2311: "It appears to me as Chair, sticking to reality, rather than fiction, that the Nays have it." And then, Madam Speaker, the Chairman went on to say that the ruling of the Chair shall be sustained.

Well, I invite the Honourable Member for Burrows, who is the Chairman of Committees of the Whole, to look at that

section of Hansard and make the correction himself. MADAM SPEAKER: The usual procedure is for members to make minor corrections to Hansard, if there is something that they are reported as saying that they know, themselves, they haven't said. I will have the tapes rechecked to make sure that, as usual, Hansard is absolutely and totally accurate in the written version . MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, knowing the Honourable Member for Burrows as I do, I know he wouldn't want an inaccuracy like that to remain on the record . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows . MR. C.

SANTOS: Madam Speaker, if I have done or said anything inaccurate, I request that it be corrected . MADAM SPEAKER: I presume that the question is not whether anyone 's done anything inaccurate , but whether that what was done was reported accurately. I'll make sure that the Hansard tape is checked and that the written wor k i s exactly accurate as to what's on the tape. COMMITTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you , Madam Speaker.

I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Elmwood, that the composition of Standing Committees , Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows : the Honourable M. Hemphill tor" M. Dolin; C. Baker for S. Ashton. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Governmen t House Leader . HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker, would you please call Bill No. 26 on Second Reading; and, following that , would you please call the Debate on Second Readings, starting with Bill No. 6 and proceeding through to Bill No. 37, in the order in which they appea r on the Order Paper on pages 2,3 and 4?

I also believe that there is an inclination on the part of all members to forego Private Members' Hour today , by leave. MADAM SPEAKER: Is that the will of the House? (Agreed) No Private Members ' Hour. SECOND READING BILL NO. 26 - THE ENVIRONMENT ACT HON. G. LECUYER presented Bill No . 26 , The Environment Act;

Loi sur l'environnement, for Second Reading. MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of the Environment . HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Madam Speaker . Madam Speaker, it is indeed a great pleasure for me to speak to d ay about our government's newest legislative initiative - Manitoba's Environment Act - which was distributed earlier this week, accompanied by a leaflet which I would describe - well, it's calle d the Background Information Document - to enable all members of this House to get a quick glance and a fast understanding of the basic components of this new piece of legislation . 2467

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 I have to say, Madam Speaker, that I am personally very proud of this legislation as I think it heralds a new era in environmental protection for our province . Manitoba's new Environment Act is, indeed, pace ­ setting legislation. It is as up-to-date as modern environmental methods can make it. This legislation , Madam Speaker, has the ability to maintain the quali ty of life we enjoy as Manitobans . A clean, safe environment is often taken for granted as a birthright of all Canadians. But the environment, in fact, is a very fragile resource, and that, Madam Speaker , we tend to forget .

There is increasing pressure on the environment in Manitoba, in Canada , and, indeed, around the world. All indications point to a gradual but steady erosion of our environmental quality, and the pace , I am sorry to say, is increasing . The number of new substances introduced to the environment is growing year by year, and we are detecting a much wider range of contaminants than ever befo re and finding them almost everywhere we look, even in the North Pole. The effect of these substances is not fully known but we do know that we cannot afford to wait to find out.

The long -ter m cumulative effect of contaminants may be as dangerous as the obvious pollution we can see, smell or taste. Many environmental changes are almost invisible from year to year, but can become disasters in the future. Environmental protection cannot be put off for another time, we have to do the job now, and do it well because we are not just doing it for ourselves, but for our children and our children 's children.

Monsieur le depute president, cet environnement si fragile, et cependant si vital a notre bien-etre quotidien a notre survivance, ne nous appartient pas, nous n'avons pas le droit de l'abuser, de le degrader. Dans toutes les decisions que nous prenons, vis a vis !'exploitation de nos resources , nous devons tenir compte des generations a venir qui n'ont pas un mot a dire dans ces decisions, mais qui devront subir le fardeau , peut-etre insurmontable d'un environnement hypothe que au depens de la qualite de l'avenir - de leur vie, par don. Get environnement nous est prete . . . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, C.

Santos: The Member for Arthur on a point of order . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the government is prepared to provide translation so the members can understand what the Minister is speaking on. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of the Environment on the same poin t of order. HON. G. LECUYER: On that point of order , Mr.

Deputy Speaker, can I simply indicate that it is not my intent to make any lengthy remarks in French; in fact, I have one more sentence that I want to complete , and the comments I am putting on the record now are basically a repeat of comments that I've made in the previous few sentences that I've made in English. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is that agreeable? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on a point of orde r that I would like to raise of my own right now , after having heard the comme nts from the Member for Brandon West. The mem ber raises the question , why do I have to make them for?

I want to put it on the record, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because it is my right to do so, and he will not remove that right from me. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Deputy Speaker , on the same point of order raised. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is that the point of order raised? MR. J. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on the point of order raised, on the same point of order that was raised by the Minister, Mr. Deputy Speaker . The Minister raised a point of order making reference to my colleague from Brandon West, Mr. Deputy Speaker .

The comment that I heard come from the Member for Brandon West was that it must not be important, what he was saying; that's the words that I heard , Mr. Deputy Speaker . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Which point of order are we talking about? There were two . MR. J. McCRAE: I'm talking about his point of orde r that he just raised. HON. G. LECUYER: Now you can say it; now you're standing. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: On the point of order raised by the Minister of the Environment, the Member for Brandon West. MR. J.

McCRAE: The Honourable Minister has told us, as if we didn't already know, that it's his right to speak in either language, and of course it's his right and we support that . The point is he was telling us, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that he was repeating exactly the same thing he said a moment ago, and if there's no simultaneous translation, who is he repeating it for is what I asked. For the Minister to take my comments out of context, as he did, is certainly a disservice to me and a disservice to all members of this House. Of course, he has the right to address this House in both languages.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: As the right to speak in the second official language is provided by statute and as both members recognize that right, I see no point of order. Thank you. The Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: I'm glad that it at least was confirmed that I had stated the same thing that I had heard. 2468

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 Cet environnemen t nous est prete , monsieur le depu te ministre, pour que nous le gerions de fa1,on a permettre non seulement un developpement soutenable - a nous qui en profitons aujourd'hui. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I still hear the Member for Brandon East moaning and grumbling -(lnterjection)­ Brandon West. He doesn't have to listen; all he has to do, Mr. Deputy Speaker , is to let me proceed with my remarks. MR. J. McCRAE: Carry on, carry on , have a good time . HON. G. LECUYER: Mais aussi en vue d'assurer une meilleure qualite de vie pour les generations futures .

Now, I shall continue in English so you can sit down and listen, if that's what you want. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I can make my comments in one language at one time, and if the membe rs don 't like it, that's tough. That's their problem . Manitoba's sustained social and economic well-being depends on the health of our environment, now and in the future. I just heard the Member for Springfield saying that he was leaving , and I thank him for that ; we shall all be doing the bette r for it here today .

The importance of a clean environment goes beyond just clean air to breathe and water to drink, and an uncontaminated soil to produce our food supply. Our quality of life also depends on sustained economic prosperity that comes from environmentally sound decision-making. Manitoba's economy depends heavily on environmentally-based industries . We are indeed fortunate to have a diverse economy, one that has kept Manitoba from joining 1he economic recession felt everywhere else in Western Canada. But its roots are firmly in the environment. Agriculture, forestry and tourism are key elements to our prosperity.

If we put our environment at risk, we put at risk the basic industries that provide for us and for future generations . Long-term environmental protection and long-term economic security go hand in hand . This government is determined to provide Manitobans with both. Manitoba 's Environment Act is a response to the needs of Manitobans . Public attitudes and concerns about the environment are changing. Environmental protection is becoming an important issue with a large and growing number of Manitobans . People see the direct connection between their well-being and a healthy environment.

Canadians are displaying rising anger over pollution and rising concern over the state of the environment . More importantly , Manitobans have told me directly that they are concerned and they want increased protection for the environment . From the first appearance of the new Environmen t Act as a discussion bill last September, my staff and I have sought public input into the act. In a series of public consultations held across the province , I had the opportunity to learn first-hand the public's feelings about the act and about the environment in the best way possible and that is face to face with Manitobans .

I spoke with more than 400 concerned citizens - business people, environmentalists and a great range of people from all over the province. I received approximately 60 written submissions on the draft act. (Madam Speaker in the Cha ir.) The message I got from Manitobans was clear. The people of this province want our environment protected , and this act can help do the job. Not everyone agreed with some of the details of the draft act , the wording , the

definitions or the emphasis . No legislation is perfect even once we have adopted it, but that is why we went to the public to make it better . Every comment and submission was studied and many changes were made to address specific concerns. We responded to the people's voice and the act introduced here is not the same act we took to Manitobans last fall. It is an improved act and I want to thank the people who took the time to study the draft, to com e to the consultation meetings, to write to me and to talk to me.

I also want to take this occasion to thank members of my staff who toiled conscientiously on this projec t to bring it to this point in time to fruitful conclusion . Bringing this new act, Madam Speaker, this far, has been a difficult and sometimes a trying process , but it now belongs to all Man itobans . Since our present Clean Environment Act became law, back in 1968, it has served Manitobans well.

It has done wha t it was designed to do - clean up obvious site -specific and health-endangering environmental contaminatio n - but it was not designed to handle the growing environmental pressures of the '?O's and the 'S0's. The Clean Environment Act is showing its age. It has become a confusing patchwork of amendments and needs more amendments in a losing attempt to keep up with the times . Madam Speaker, the scope of the present act is far too narrow . The environment it protects is limited to air, water and soil, and it can only deal with actions that actually emit contaminants.

The environmental impact assessment is limited and there are no provisions for environmental planning . To continue with the presen t act often would put us in the position of having to clean up after the damage was already done. We have to manage the environment as a treasured resource for future Manito bans, and we must prevent, therefore , damage from occu rring in the firs t place . With thi s new legislation , we can bette r protect the environment . Man itoba 's new Enviro nment Act is in novative and p revention or iented .

Its five basic principles put it on the cutting edge of environmenta l legislation in Canada and , for that matter , North America as well. First of all, Madam Speaker, Manitoba's Environment Act recognize s that environmental protection in this province must include the full range of values that Manitobans hold fo r their environment . The word "environmen t" now has the scope to protect all ecosystems, whether human influenced or entirely natural. The act recognizes that environmental damage is not caused by pollu tion only, but may resu lt from othe r factors as well. These are dealt with together .

It gives us the ability to scrutinize all actions which may impa c t on the en vironment . Any pro ject of environmenta l significance can be subjecte d to an impact assessmen t f or comp lete protection of our environmental her itage . Second, to provide efficient and effective control of contam inant emissions , a n ew system of source licensing is built into the act. It can deal with well-know 2469

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 discharges quickly and efficiently at the same time the process permits a better assessment of industries with little known or problem effluence. Every development proposal which impacts on the environment must have a license . Through the licensing process , environmenta l stand ards are set for specific developments . Third, the act also provides a single unified process which no longer makes the type of artificial division between pollution control and environmental impact that legislation did in the past and that it still does in most jurisdic tions .

At the same time, the process is flexible. The nature and location of a project dictates whether a full environmental impact assessment will be done, or if contaminant emissions only will be considered. This new legislation also takes into account many things besides a development's impact on the physical environment. It can also assess resource use, impact on sensitive areas, the socioeconomic impacts of developmen t, and other important factors. Best of all, the prop osed process means a single application and a single environmental licence have to be obtained .

Other provinces can have three or more environmental approvals for a single development projec t. Our legislation is designed to provide as comprehensive an assessment as possible while working with industry to prevent environmental damage. Our single-window approach to environmental approval and lice nsi ng can actually simplify the industrial development process. Fourth, this act, for the first time, provides for a streng thened public role in environmental decision­ making . There is an open public review process built into the act.

The volunteer Manitoba Environmental Council and the Clean Environment Commission have been interlinked to strengthen each other. As well, the Environment Department will publish a comprehensive Stat e of the Environment Report for Manitoba on a regular basis. Most important of all, the department has increased its accountability to the public for environment decision­ maki ng. The department's actions in granting or denying a licen ce to develop will be open to public scrutiny . There will be a public registry of information relating to every prop osal received by the departmen t.

These are innovative and, I believe, vital steps to make in environmental legislation. Manitoba 's Environment Act is designed to serve the people . It has already been greatly improved by public input and a strengthened public role in environmental decisions can ensure that the act will achieve its objectives in the real world. Fift h, the act also strengthens our ability to enforce environmental laws. This legislation makes sure it is not profitable to damage the environment. It provides substantial fines for offences and jail sentences are also provided .

The Manitoba Environment Act is designed to discourage repeat offenders and includes some of the latest enforcement techniques to do so. Fines will be scaled for first and subsequent offences and directors of corporations will be personally liable for violations, facing fines and jail sentences for their actions. This legislation represents the public mood that pollution should not be profitable and will not be tolerated . The Manitoba Environment Act is the end result of years of careful planning by this government.

Although it stands by itself as the flagship of our environmental legislation for this decade, it fits perfectly with other legislati on designed to protect the birthright of future Manitobans . This act is part of an overall legislative program for environmental protection in Mani toba . It was designed to compliment our existing Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act , which was adopted in 1985, and The Hazardous Wastes Management Corporation Act adopted in 1986. The addition of Manitoba's Environment Act will round out our total environmental management approach in Manitoba.

Regulations to come will also flow from the same process of concentrated legislativ e groundwork combined with public consultation . We have found that taking our plans to the people first, before finalizing them, results in legislation and regulations that are more effective and pragmatic. This has been an open process , a p ublic process. As well as updating Manitoba's ability to protect and manage its environment, this act reflects the improvements called for by Manitobans - improvements that will make it more real and workable when it becomes law.

The public consultat ion process was so important and so fruitful that I would like to mention a few of the adjustments we made to the act on the basis of specific input received . Our original plans to combine the Clean Environment Commission and the Manit oba Environmental Council were dropped because people felt they could be better served by two seperate bodies . Instead, we defined our roles more clearly and used them to reinforce each other. Also , to respond to pub lic concerns, we made adjustments to the planned public consultation process.

We also, Madam Speaker, made substantial changes in the accountability process of the Environment Department . In response to the public, a specific requirement calling for written justification of decisions was written into the act. Responsibility for many major decisions was also shifted to the Minister to satisfy publ ic concerns of excessive bureaucratic authority over these decisions. Also, wherever possible, decision­ making actions and time frames have been mandated . Madam Speaker, one of the most useful results of consultations with the public was an improvement and clarification of

definitions and processes vital to the act. The process of envir onmental assessment has been substantially modified as a result of these consultations . Developments will be cat egorized as to their impact and management. Specific assessment processes have also been established for each of those categories that I've just mentioned . The process in each case is public and provides for the identification of interdepartmental concerns. So, Madam Speaker, the changes that I have mentioned will not only make the act more efficien t. but will also make it better able to serve the people for which it is intended .

These changes, Madam Speaker, also demonstrate that we want environmental protection to be everyone's business . Manitoba's Environment Act is progressive on all fronts that we, as provincial governments can address , but I would like to stress that others must also work to protect our environment. Environmental progress is not just a case of improving regulations; it involves 2470

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 important attitudinal changes . To do our job for the people of Manitoba, others must pitch in. In this new act, we have a legislative tool that can accomplish much , but to use the act to its full potential, we need the full participation of all Manitobans. The public has demonstrated its willingness to work with us. We need cooperation from other areas as well. Our government needs the cooperation of the private sector and especially other governments at all levels.

There is much work to be done and successful achievements will occur, Madam Speaker, provided there is that cooperation and commitment on everyone's part . Manitoba's Environment Act holds advantages for industry that can keep our economy thriving . It is clear that any development in this province is only of long ­ term value if it can be sustained. Environmental damage causes economic damage in the long run . The business sector is now starting to understand that environmental protection and economic planning can be compatible and complementary. Manitoba's Environment Act will benefit all Manitobans .

It means protection for quality of life and protection of our heritage for future generations . I am proud, Madam Speaker, to have guided this landmark legislation, and I am proud to have worked with my fellow Manitobans to make it a reality and, today, proud to present it to all members of this House seeking, I hope, Madam Speaker, all of their support. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move, seconded by the Member for Virden, that debate be adjourned . I MOTION presented and carried.

ADJOURNED DEBATE ON SECOND READING BILL NO. 6 - THE EMERGENCY MEASURES ACT 1 1 MADAM SPEAKER: Debate on Second Reading, Bill No. 6, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Madam Speake r, I took the adjournment on this debate on behalf of the Member for Ste . Rose. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, then. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My comments will be brief. I'm sure that may disappoint some members opposite .

The interesting aspect of this bill , Madam Speake r, that I would like to obtain further clarification on - and I hope that some clarification will be forthcoming and a better feeling will be realized from the municipalities and the towns across the province that will be affected by this legislation - I refer to the fact that they are able to declare states of emergency and also will be able to levy and pay for expenses acquired under that state.

Frankly, Madam Speaker , while at first glance there seems to be a great deal of concern that could be brought forward about the amount of authority that is given to local elected officials in order to deal with the emergencies, I think we do realize that a state of emergency is, in fact, a situation which none of us hope to be found in, but it is a situation where it has to be dealt with quickly and decisively , and the local authority obviously is the authority that is closest to the issue at the moment of its occurrence . Therefore , the declaration by the local authority has considerable merit .

I look at one clause , Madam Speaker, where we see that a declaration may, if necessary, be extended for further periods . It gives rise to the question about whether or not a number of extensions could or should be given to the local authority in order to extend the state of emergency .

Certainly , in talking to the local elected officials, I have no feeling that they would ever abuse this accidentally or intentionally, but any time we are putting together legislation, we always have to deal with the probabilities, no matter how remote they may be in some cases , of whether or not there is a possibility of abuse of authority.

I would like to draw this particular clause to the attention of the House and simply raise the question about whether or not there should be at some point, or could be, an amendment brought in where at one point the loca l authorities, when they wish to extend the state of emergency , be required to consult or do it in conjunction with the responsible provincial authority.

The only othe r comment I wish to make on Bill 6, Madam Speaker, revolves around the fact that while we are seeing the transmittal of authority to local government authorities and elected officials to deal with, in this case , emergencies , we are doing as a provincial government what I think we very often have concerns about happening between other levels of government as well, and that is, where we pass on the authority , we also pass on a degree of the expenditures.

Again , I would like to point to that part of the bill, and I wonder if the local authorities, the municipalities and the smaller towns and LGD's in the province, I am sure that at some point they will have to be made fully aware. I wonder, in the discussions that have led up to this point, and the position or lack of position in some cases that they have taken vis-a-vis this legislation, if they are fully apprised of the expenditures that may at some point be involved with the use of this bill by their elected authorities . Those few words end my comments, Madam Speaker.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, when this bill was last before the House, I'd indicated a concern to indicate very bri efly some views in respect to it. I appreciate the need, and I naturally compliment my colleague for bringing forward this legislation , which will complement the emergency measures which we've had heretofore in the province . What , in effect, it will provide, from an overall viewpoint, is a state of readiness within local 2471

,- Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 government to deal with emergencies and will require a local government to look at situations that could occur within their area and advance a plan to deal with those contingencies that arise in an emergent situation . Madam Speak er, as honourable members will appreciate , under the Depa rtment of Labour , the Minister is responsible for the Fire Commissioner's Office, and under our portfolio we have the Brandon Fire College and , of course, the Fire Commissioner's Office itself .

I have met with local officials from time to time , particularly the representation from municipal volunteer fire departments, and I want to put on record my appreciation for their work in emergency situations. I think it will assist all of the local governments to have the obligation to develop a plan which will include the use of, I'm sure, in most areas , the people who are now serving in fire departments , whether they be fully volunteer or partly volunteer .

I want to put on record that the Office of the Fire Commissioner, and through the Fire College , will certainly assist in any way that it is appropriate for us to provide assistance. Our field services work closely with the Emergency Measures Organization and we plan and conduct mock disasters within mutual aid districts . As members will recall , the province is divided into mutual aid districts so that local fire departments dealing with emergency sit uations can call upon other municipal or local government facilities under the mutual aid plans that are in readiness.

I think this effort will complement the efforts that already exist in respect to that sharing of mutual responsibility in respect to emergencies . With those few words , Madam Speaker , I wanted to indica te the Fire Commissioner's Office 's willingness to do everything we can possible to assist local governments where their planning requires an involvement of the kind of resources that are called upon most frequently to deal with emergencies resulting from fire and other areas that fire services handle in local government. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: Are we ready for the question on Second Reading , Bill No. 6?

The Honourable Minister to close debate . HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, Madam Speake r, it is my understanding that there are no further members wanting to make a contribution so I will move to close debate on Second Reading. Madam Spea ker, at this time, I wan t to thank the members opposite and members from this side of the House who have stated their support for Bill 6, The Emergency Measures Act, and to constructive ly consider the sections of the bill that they have made contributions to.

They have made some recommendations that we feel will help us in this bill and we will be bringing forw ard some changes during our clause-by-clause discussions of the bill when we're in comm ittee . The basic principle of this bill - the protection of life, property and environment - is a principle which is not considered debatable. People everywhere expect their governments to assume responsibilities during an emergency and do whatever is necessary to ensure protection of life , property and the environment .

This act provides the necessary authority for provincial and mun icipal offic ials to develop effective emergency preparedness programs and to ensure the mitigation of the effect of the emergencies and to provide required assistance for restoration of the damage that was carried out to property during the time of some disaster . In the debate on the Second Read ing of Bill 6, a question arose as to at what point a serious accident or a sit utation becomes an emergency. An emergency exists when an affected municipali ty must implement actions beyond their normal emergency service response .

Each municipality capa ble of covering its emergency base is based upon the ir human and material resources and , therefore , the point at which an emergency exists varies from municipality to municipality, depending on the resources that each municipality has at its disposa l which they may be using in order to counteract the effects of an emergency . Madam Speaker, the emergency response concept is outlined in the Manitoba Emergency Plan . In March 1984, copies of this plan were sent to the Leader of the Opposition , to both caucuses , to the Legislative Library and to every municipality in the province.

The initial emergency response is the responsibility of the local authority and when the capacity of the local authority to deal with the emergency is exceeded, or is about to be exceeded , then a second level of response is activated. This involves the provision of support from adjoining municipalities which may be in a form of a formal agreement , or an informal agreement, to which they may be helping an adjoining neighbouring municipality .

Once that level of response is fullfilled, then the next level of service comes in, which is at the emergency level, and once the Emergency Measures Organization, which comes under the provincial responsibility, once that authority is exceeded, then the federal authority comes into play. Some members opposite referenced a perceived need for more specific informat ion within the act about the roles of the municipalities and about other factors that will affect the quality and timing of decisions in emergency situations.

To this end , it must be recognized that Bill 6 supports the development of emergency plans by all municipalities with the assistance of staff of the Emergency Measures Organization . The very existence of these plans should enhance the municipalities' ability to be prepared for an emergency. I think the fact they have an emergency plan in place will give them an opportunity to respond to emergencies in a much quicker fashion. In considering the specifics of emergencies, one must recognize that there are an infinite number of different types of situations that could occur .

Plans prepared by municipalities must therefore deal with the fundamental principles of Bill 6 which deals with emergency responses which will remain intact regardless of the specific particular emergencies . Madam Speaker, to ensure an effective emergency response system, the provincial and municipal officials must have the necessary power to take immediate action. In Canada, all levels of government have some responsibility for and are involved in emergency 2472

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 planning and preparedness. This is because all levels of government have the responsibility to plan and prepare for emergencies which cannot be adequately responded to by private means. The nature of today 's emergencies and the pace at which situations develop demands a swift, effective response . Many of today's emergencies involve hazardous products. In these situations, authorities cannot delay those actions necessary for the protection of life, property and the environment.

Therefore , the initial responsibility for responding to peacetime emergen cy rests with the level of government that is directly involved with the emergency that happens to be in place . Given the level of responsibility that the municipalities have , and in recognition of the quick, effective action they must undertake to mitigate an emergency, it is necessary to grant them the powers to take the required action. This bill seeks to establish the appropriate balance of responsibility and power for providing those who have the responsibility for that to be in a position to respond to that very quickly.

Madam Speaker, there were members opposite who had some concerns over granting the authority to the local authorities , the municipal councillors , and they seemed to be willing to give them the authority to handle emergencies of a different level in the areas of fire prevention and the areas of emergency powers in other responsibilities , but they don 't seem to be willing to give them responsibilities for emergency measures. I have complete confidence in the elected representatives at the local level and I'm sure that they will be handling them with methods that we will be proud of.

I have no concerns over giving the mayors and councillors the authority to declare a local emergency . The Member for Ste. Rose just spoke and he said he supported the local authorities; and the only concern he had was, when he was extending the state of emergency, could there be an abuse? I want to share with the Membe r for Ste.

Rose that when there is an extension of an eme rgency, the length of an emergency, that the Emergency Measures Organizatio n for the province will be present at an emergency of that sort, so there'll be consultation before there is an extension of the period of time that the emergency is extended . Madam Speaker, the Member for Gladstone asked the question as to who had been asking for this type of legislation and who supports it. I suggest that the member communicate with the elected members of the Municipality of Gladstone and see some of the concerns that they have had.

They have had some input into the planning for this Emergency Measures Organization and there has been a lot of response . Many of the municipalities have given us written response to plans when they were sent out. They have had support from all of them. There were several other inquiries made by the Emergency Measures Organization because we felt that we didn 't have enough response , so we contacted many other municipalit ies and they also were in support of the legislation that was brought forward.

Madam Speaker, the Member for Charleswood also had some concerns and I believe that he should be talking to the Member for Lakeside because he condemned this government for reorganizing the Emergency Measures Organization. I think if he would check with the Member for Lakeside, he was the Minister who was resp onsible for changing the legislation which reduced the size of the Emergency Measures Organization .

So I think the Member for Lakeside should be asking the Member for Charleswood for an apology because he chastised this government and he should have been chastising the Member for Lakeside who I believe was very progressive in the legislation that he brought forward . I think that it has served us well, the changes that he made .

Madam Speaker, the previous government participated in the review of the Emergency Measures Organization along with municipalities at all levels in the province and also the Provincial and Federal Governments , and they all agreed that there was a need for chan ges in the legislation tha t it had brought forward . So the re was support not only from the municipal level but also from the federal level.

Madam Speaker, the Member for Turtle Mountain , the chief critic of the Conservative Caucus for this legislation, has taken the time to carefully peruse the legislat ion, and I believe he has touched base with several of the municipalities who are within his area of responsibility and he has found support for this legislation . The member said he is concerned about the response of local officials and he would be checking with them. He said he has now checked further and there seems to be a response.

We want to tell you that there has been a written response from six municipalities, including Winnipeg, Thompson, Dauphin and Flin Flon, and they were all supportive. There were some areas of concern abou t what do we do in the event of a war. After being assured that was a federal responsibility and all of the othe r municipal governments would be in a better position to respond to the emergency of war because they are better prepared for peacetime emergency, that they would also be in a better position to respond to a wartime emergency .

Madam Speaker , there are several cha nges to the act that we will be making . One of them is

section 19 of the act which deals with Workers Compensation. We will not be proclaiming that portion of the act , that's an area of responsibility that falls under the area of Workers Compensation. So we would be making those changes when we come forward . Mada m Speaker, we look forward to the clause-by­ clause debate of it. I once again want to thank the members who have given us support on the bill, and I look forward to the clause-by-clause debate when it takes place in committee . Thank you , Madam Speaker. QUESTION put, MOTION carried .

BILL NO. 15 - THE CROP INSURANCE ACT MADAM SPEAKER: Debate on Second Reading on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture , Bill No. 15, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Virden. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. C. BAKER: Well, Madam Speaker , maybe just a few words . 2473

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 MADAM SPEAKER: Is there leave for the bill to stand in the name of the Honourable Member for Virden? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. C. BAKER: Am I supposed to speak now? Madam Speaker , it's difficult for a person first time in this House to know the rules and procedures, but I'm learn ing slow ly.

But I think that this a very important amendment , and I would hope that we would dispose of this amendme nt as soon as we could , because I'm hoping that farmers out there will not have to be waiting for crop insurance claims as they have to do so often throughout the years . Madam Speaker, if I could just say a few words about Crop Insurance , during the Seventies I sat on a crop insurance board and I watched it grow and progress with new measures being introduced , new crops being insured , and it's grown into a very, very valuable tool that farmers have become accustomed to rely on.

If I might, Madam Speaker, just go back in a bit of history, I remember the progression from the low prices of the Sixties into the more reasonable and much higher prices of the Seventies and crop insurance , of course, we had to keep pace . And

whereas , we were dealing wit h prices for - if you want to use meat as an examp le, $1 .50 in the Sixties per insured bushel to $3 in the Seventies, and I believe it went up as high as $3.5 or $4 a bushe l. Sorry to say, Madam Speaker , we are now on the opposite end of that cycle , and we're seeing a situation where crop prices are going down . I know the Opposition has voiced concern about the fact that some farmers might be tempted - and who can say you blame them - to rely on crop insurance as an income guarantee at this present time.

But I want to say, Madam Speaker, that if far mers should do that for any more than a couple of years, I don't think they would survive much longer than that anyways. It seems to me, Madam Speaker , that what we need alongside of crop insur ance is some kind of a bona fide Income Stabilization Program, similar to the one that Eastern Canada and Quebec enjoy . I'm talking about the Canad ian Stabilization Act. But, Madam Speaker, I guess that will have to come in another debate at another time.

At this present time, Madam Speaker, we are trying to facilitate the faster, the quicker processing of farmers' claims for crop insurance. I would hope we would dispose of this bill, pass it as soon as we possibly can, so the farmers can get the benefit of any claims that they are entitled to. Madam Speaker, it's very impe rative that we retain crop insuranc e and keep on improving it. I just want to give one example of how important it was. If you want to go through some statistics , you will see that in 1980 if farmers did not have crop insurance there would have been no net income in Manitoba.

You remember 1980 was the disaster or drought year. If you want to check statistics you could see that it was only because of crop insurance that there was any net income in Manitoba. Madam Speaker, I think it 's just as important today, crop insurance, and I would hope that the Opposition would support this amendment and we could get it disposed of as quickly as we can so farmers can get their claims processed as soon as possible . Thank you, Madam Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Virden . MR. G. FINDLAY: I would ask if the member would entertain a short question .

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden . MR. G. FINDLAY: I would just ask the member if he approves of the amendment that no farmers need be on the Appeal Tribunal? At present , one farmer must be on there. The new bill suggests that no farmers have to be on it. Does he approve of tha t amend ment? MR. C. BAKER: As I unders tand it, they are retired farmers , so I don't know what you would classify the farmer as. What's your definition of a farmer? MR. G. FINDLAY: An active farme r. MR. C. BAKER: An active farmer?

Madam Speaker, I think that retired farmers, normally speaking, are out of the business and could give an objective view, so I go along with the amendment. They can give just as objective a view as one who does his farming right now. Thank you . BILL NO. 23 - THE HIGHWAY TRAFFIC ACT MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Ministe r of Highways , Bill No. 23, standing in the name of the Honourable Membe r for Minnedosa . MR. D. BLAKE: Madam Speake r, with leave, the Member for Ste. Rose will speak to the bill. I'd like it still standing in my name .

MADAM SPEAKER: Is there leave of the House for the bill to be left standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Minnedosa . (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker, I'd like to put some comments on the record regarding Bill No. 23. Dealing first of all with the amendmen t that gives the authority to the province to reduce the licence plates on ou r vehicles to a single plate , it seems to me that we are confronted with a government or a departmen t that is putting forward legislatio n.

On the one hand , there are some very good parts of Bill No. 23 that improve the enforcement of the law and the regulations under The Highway Traffic Act , and make it easier for the law enforcement officials of this province to carry out their responsibilities and duties . At the same time , we see in this amendment where , in my opinion and in the opinion of a great many people in this province , the elimination of_ the front licence plate will indeed lead to some difficulty in law enforcement and, quite 2474

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 frankly, the saving that is discussed in the Minister's introduction of the bill simply does not warrant the additional difficulties that this will create for law enforcement officials . Quite simply, to say that we will save $1 million on the renewal of our plates - $1.2 million, I believe, is the figure that the Minister quotes - seems to me that there are a lot of imaginative ways that this government could have looked to right in the manufacture and the use of the licence plates that could save $1.2 million without removing the front licence plate.

Quite simply -(Interjection)- like extending the use of them. I guess maybe the generation on that side believes in recycling, but they forgot that some products can be made to last a considerable length of time. An extension of the life of the licence plate similar to what is used under other jurisdictions to the south of us could quite easily generate that same $1 million worth of savings.

I think the other aspect that probably was not taken into consideration when this sugges tion was brought forward - and Madam Spea ker, I have to admit that probably this suggestion was brought forward in the light of the fact that this department has been raped, pillaged and plundered in every which way in terms of financial structuring of the way that the Highways Department is funded. We have seen $12 million taken out. We've seen taxes raised; we've seen fees raise'd. Quite obviously, we're going to see - the offer is ess plates for more money.

But in fact, if we want to look at the improvement of motoring safety and make circumstances for the motoring public in this province more conducive to a safe environment , this is one area where, frankly, I do not believe that they have· given sufficient thought to how additional revenues can be generated, how additional funds can be saved . I would simply - I see a couple of the backbenchers on the government side chuckling to themselves and I say to them, do they know anything about law enforcement.

Do they understand that many of the law enforcement courses enhance the ability of an officer to take a quick reading on a plate that is coming towards him? And very simply, while it may not be a situation where he can identify perfectly the numbers that are on that plate, he can - well the Empire Loyalist, in particular, has to receive a certain amount of understanding, and we will endeavor to effect an education on how we see certain aspects of law enforcement and the safety of the motoring public in this province is being carried out .

The tax-paying law enforcement officer - $1.2 million, as I finished saying a couple of minutes ago, can be saved in many ways and right in the licen ce plate costs without reducing the use of the front plate. That argument , I would say, is practicably irrefutable, but it seems to me that the Minister and the members who wish to support this measure are not going to accept that logic and that rationale.

The reflective aspect of vehicles with the front plate, where there is a reflective aspect to the plates certainly, Madam Speaker, for those of us who live in the rural parts of Manitoba, the most quickly identifiable item on a vehicle that you are approaching on a side road that has been stopped for whatever reason, if you are approaching it from the front, the first thing you will see is the reflective licence plate. So not only is it an identification process, it is a safety factor . · · Frankly, I'm not sure what the Minister is going to propose to be used. We've heard talks about promotion tor tourism.

I don't think we're probably going to want to have the cameo of the Minister of Highways on the licence plate. Surely we could come up with the promotions that could be used in other ways. But if we remove that licence plate, q11ite simply, we're removing a safety factor. We're removin g a facility to improve the enforcement of vehicle identification by our law officers, and we are very much concerned that this enabling legislati ~n is include d in these amendments.

Madam Speaker, there is another change that is brought in, in these !;lmendments, to which I would like to address some comments, and that is the use of the combination red and blue lights on law enforcement vehicles. I have no problem with that aspect because it brings Ull in line with many other jurisdictions not only in Canada but across the U.S. There has been considerable discussion - and the Minister has not addres'sed it in these amendments - about the use of alt'3rnating lights on vehicles that facilitate, that are public service vehicles and vehicles that are emergency vehicles .

The Minister in the department continued to ignore the requests and the concerns of those people who have been promoting alternating lights for safety purposes . This clause only partly addresses the concerns of those people who have been bringing forward the aspect of the safety of alternating lights.

There will be an inquest this summer regardi ng an accident involving a Department of Highways snowplow , and I would suggest that while we do not see amendments in this act I would hope that the department would seriously consider in the information that would come forward at that point because it is my firm belief that the use of alternating flashing lights on public service vehicles could increase the safety of our highways under hazardous driving conditions because of the increased visibility of those vehicles with the use of alternating lights.

A single rotating light does not have the same impact on the driving public. I would like to move to the other amendment that I wish to address and that is included under the authority of a peace officer to stop and examine a driver 's licence and registration.

Madam Speaker, while I have sought to get as much clarification as possible from the Minister, and he has been quite forthcoming with explanatory notes which I have in front of me at this time, the concern has to be expressed that we must have a better feeling for what the intent of this amendment is because in his explanatory notes in the introduction of this bill the Minister referred to the random stopping of vehicles in order to improve the control and the stopping of those who would drive without a driver's licence.

And, certainly, there are an increasing number of those on the highways because we have an increasing number of convictions where drivers' licences are, in fact, suspended. I want to make it very clear, Madam Speaker, and to the members of the government as well, that we approach this bill from the point of view that we wish to see enforcement of our laws in a fair and in a manner that is quick, in a manner whereby the law enforcemen t officials can readily enforce the regulations which society has imposed upon those who are no longer fit to drive 2475

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 on our highways . But, Madam Speaker, we need a little bit further clarification on this

section of the act to be able to understand if this would include arbitrary stopping of motorists on the highway . If this amendment can be shown that it includes only the inclusion of this

section , so that the police officers and the law enforcement officials can continue with a program whereby the roadside checks are of the nature whereby there is not an arbitrary stopping, then this

section becomes a lot more compatible. And as I said, we wish to encourage and we wish to do everything we can to see that the highways of this province are as safe as possible and one way to encourage that is to be sure that our law enforcement officials can readily enforce the regulations which we have applied to improve safe driving. We approach this bill from a point of view of law and order and certainly want to make that the foundation of all my comments. I would refer then, Madam Speaker , to an amendment further in the act.

We talk about the regulations that would improve the ability to implement commercial vehicle inspe ction on a regular interval basis rather than on a call-up basis.

Again, Madam Speaker , I would state that this is an amendment that will improve the safety of our highways, that will improve the safety of the driving public, because as we get further and further into deregulation in this province, deregulation of the trucking industry , the one way that the province and the public, through its governing bodies , can improve the safety of the vehicles on the road without , as we have a relaxation of the regulation regarding the fiscal regulation of the carriers, we now have an opportunity under this amendment , I believe, to implement inspections that will assure that the safety is maintained on these heavily loaded vehicles that we very often see on our highways.

So to that end, Madam Speaker, I believe that amendment is a useful one , but I wish to point out that it is one that becomes increasingly required as we move further and further into the deregulation of the motor transport industry in this province . In closing my remarks, Madam Speaker, I would like to re-emphasize the fact that if we remove the front licence plate from our vehicles, enforcement will be more difficult, identification will be more difficult.

Madam Speaker, while there are many aspects of this bill that I did not address, I did not address them because, by and large, they are either housekeeping or they are aspects that -we can-support. •But as I said near the end of my remarks, Madam Speaker, I would seek further clarification from the department on the intent and on the reality of the implementation of the changes for the ability of police officers to stop vehicles for the reason of examining registration and licence. That concludes my remarks . MADAM SPEAKER: Bill No. 23 will stand in the name then of the Honourable Member for Minnedosa .

BILL NO. 24 - THE CORPORATIONS ACT MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Bill No . 24, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Emerson . The· Honourable Member for Riel. MR. G. DUCHARME: On 24, the Member for Emerspn stood the bill on my behalf and we've reviewed the bill , Madam Speaker . Unless the members on the other side of the House have any questions or any comments at this time, we would be glad to have it go on to committee . MADAM SPEAKER: On Bill No. 22, for Second Reading, all those in favour say, aye; opposed say, nay.

In my opinion, the ayes have it and the motion is accordingly carried. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney­ General, Bill No. 25, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. A MEMBER: Stand. MR. G. DUCHARME: 24, you said 22. MADAM SPEAKER: 25. MR. G. DUCHARME: No, when you moved the other one , you mentioned 22, it's 24, the previous bill. You mentioned 22, it was 24. MADAM SPEAKER: The one that we passed was Bill No. 24. MR. G. DUCHARME: You said Bill 22. MADAM SPEAKER: I'm sorry. Bill No. 24 has passed . Bill No. 25 is standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St.

Norbert. Is it the will of the House to leave it stand? (Agreed) On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of the Environment, Bill No. 28, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Emerson. The Honourable Member for Kildonan on a point of order. MR. M. DOLIN: Madam Speaker , I believe there was a mistake made. You passed Bill No. 24, called 25 and announced it was standing in the name, I think, of the Member for St. Norbert and then did not recognize any speakers and -moved on to Bill No. 28. I would suggest that I would like to speak on Bill No. 25, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: All right.

I'm sorry. I did not see the Honourable Member for Kildonan at that point. BILL NO. 25 - THE DISCRIMINATORY BUSINESS PRACTICES ACT MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan on Bill No. 25. Is it the will of the House to leave it stand ing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Kildonan. You've got to yell. MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you , Madam Speaker. 2476

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 I just want to say a few words on this bill, which I think is a bill which will probably be supported by all sides of the House. One of the reasons for this bill being proposed at this Session of the House is questioning that came from the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, the Member for Pembina, myself , and the Member for River Heights during the course of the MTX debate at the last Session of the House .

One of the problems was dealing with MTX employees, either women or of the Jewish faith , in the contract entered into by MTX with Saud i Arabia and the prohibitions, Madam Speaker, placed upon these people by the government either de facto or in actual reality by the Government of Saudi Arabia. What this bill does, and this bill is modelled - and I think it's probably a better model, Madam Speaker , than the original - on a similar bill in the Province of Ontario. The bill describes what is discrimination.

Discrimination, basically, is described as an attribute of a person and dealing with defined attributes, such as race, colour, national origin, ancestry, sex, etc. It then describes later in the bill where it applies and what is discriminatory practice, and it describes discriminatory practices in a secondary or tertiary level. Madam Speaker, I think this is very important .

There are two kinds of discriminatory practices that I think came out and should be dealt with by this Legislature, and prohibited as described by this bill, and those are secondary is where you or I are in direct business venture with another person who discriminates agains t one of our employees or against us. The other one is the situation where a company does business, Madam Speaker, with a company in Manitoba and says that they will not do business with this company if they do business with a third party.

There is legislation in the United States of America - my empire loyalist friends on the other side are always very aware in their world travels of what goes on sou th of the border, Madam Speaker - which is referred to as anti-boycott legislation. The anti-boycott legislation was brought in in the U.S. and basically this was prohibiting companies from doing business with Arab countries which prohibited them from doing business with Israel.

Basically what this was is some of the Arab nations and their companies said they would do business with company A if company A did not do business with Israeli firms or the Israeli government. Thereby, on a third party basis, prohibiting that company from doing business. This is prohibit ed in this legislation, Madam Speaker, and so it should be. There are remedies pointed out and, in some cases , where someone cannot get a visa, as was the case, Madam Speaker, in the situation in Saudi Arabia with MTX.

Now, one of the things brought out in the Cummings Repo rt by Coopers and Lybrand, was we really have no jurisdiction in Manitoba over policies regarding visas given by the Saudi Arabian Government. (Mr. Deputy Speake r in the Chair.) What happened in th is case is Jews and women were discouraged fro m application for employment, Mr. Deputy Speake r, in Saudi Arabia for the simple reason they were Jews or women. Now , we had no authority to do anything about that, as a province and as a Crown Corporation, Mr. Deputy Speaker , because we have no jurisdication over Saud i Arabia . What happens in that case, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , is one can say we can shrug our shoulders and say, well, Saudi Arabia has a policy regarding visas . The do not allow Jews or women to enter Saud i Arabia and ente r into certain professions. Since we, as a provi nce, cannot control Saud i Arabian law, then we must go along with Saudi Arabian law in doing business or all owi ng Manitoba companies to do busines s in Saudi Arabia. Mr. Deputy Speake r, that is not the case in this legislation and I must praise the Attorney-General for takin g up this concern.

What happens now is there is a sectio n called Employment Opportunity wher e a Manitoba employee is put in thi s situation, where he is refused a visa going to a foreign jurisdiction which discriminates against him or her because of an attribute as defined in the act. There is a requirement that employee now be offered equiv alent other employment in a jurisdiction where he or she can work, and the act stat es : Offer affected emp loyees , or perspective employees, the next equivale nt employmen t opportunity for which that employee is qualified. I think that is an excellent

section and I think that is most importan t. I do wish to point out where I feel there is a weakness in the act , and this act, I think, solves half the problem identified in the MTX-Saudi Arabian situation , Mr. Dep uty Speaker, half the problem being those companies in Manitoba doing business abroad where the jurisdi ct ions they do business with discrim inate . What it does not deal with is the situation where a Crown corporati on , an agent or a departmen t of gove rnm ent of the Province of Manitoba does business abroad in a discriminatory area. One of the things is this act does not apply. My reading of the act is that there is a

section delineating who the act does not apply to, and it does not apply to situations where the Government of Canada - and I believe that is in the sect ion that says where it is " . . . a policy of the Government of Canada . . . "or where it is " . . . a policy of the government of Manitoba directed towards persons in provinces other than Manitoba" or governments other than that of Canada . This bothers me, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, because I think what we have done is, we have dealt here - and I th ink reasonably effectively - where we have jurisdiction in Manitoba businesses doing business abroad and in ensuring that Manitobans, the people of this province who are employed by Manitoba companies , are not discriminated against by any attribute they have, be it race , colour , sex, national origin, when the compan y they work for is doing business abroad .

The problem here is, if they are discriminated against abroad, I think also the act covers the situati on where the compan y still does business abroad wher e they are offered an equivalent opportunity for promotion, employment, etc. , here in Canada . What the act does not cover - and I still feel that we are missing half of the situation tha t was described at MTX and the situation which I brought up to some great extent.

I expressed concern about it, as did some of the members opposite - and I think particularly the Leader of the Opposition - is a Crown corporation or a government department doing business abroad. This act does not cover that. 24TT

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 Now, I think it is a good measure to deal with the private sector . Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think what is more important and what we have been promised by the government - and I looked forward to seeing - is the Minister of Crown corporations coming up with a policy to deal with government agenc ies, government departments, Crown corporations doing business abroad to ensure that government employees , civil servants, servants of Crown corporations , Mr.

Deputy Speaker, also have the same protections and the same rights as those afforded to people in the private sector when and if this act is passed. Mr. Deputy Speaker , I assume from the comments mad e at last year 's hearings by the Opposition and by the Member for River Heights, that there will be no opposition to the principles of this bill. Not only will there be no opposition, but I would suspe ct that members opposite may even take the position that it' s not strong enough. I have some sympathy for the fact that it is not strong enough .

There are certain categories which could be defined more clearly, and there is the

section on non-ap plication of the act which I would hope members opposite and myself and other members from this side will encourage and support the early issuance of policy guidelines for government agencies and Crown corporations to ensure the same fairness for civil servants and government employees . Mr. Deputy Speaker, I commend this bill to the House. I commend the Attorney -General on not only the principles of this bill but the fact that he did not create another bureaucracy as they did in Ontario .

In Ontario , they created another bureaucracy to oversee discr iminatory practices of the private sector in doing business abroad. The Attorney-General, I feel in his wisdom, in this case allowed the jurisdiction, the examination, the mediation to be done by our own Human Rights Commission . So there is a money saving here, I feel, from what has happened in Ontario, where the Human Rights Commission can make the adjudications and mediate . I would also like to point out that not only does this bill define the situation and set penalties where there are violations but, even more important , Mr.

Deputy Speaker, is the preventive aspect of the bill. What they found in the United States when they passed the anti­ boycott legislation was that, where a company or a government in the Middle East said they would not do business with an American company because they traded with Israel - and there was an Arab boycott from these countries against Israel - where the law in the United States said that company would be subject to punishment , Mr. Deputy Speaker, if they adhered to that discriminatory policy of the Middle Eastern country or company.

What happened is, in most cases , the Middle Eastern countries or companies waived the boycott because the American companies held firm and said very, very simply to the Arab count rie s or companies that, ii you wish to do business with us, you cannot expect us to discriminate or honour the boycott . In most cases, the Arab countries wanting to do business, Mr. Deputy Speaker , with those companies , said to Amerada Petroleum or Exxon, well that's okay, we'll make an exception. You can have Jewish employees, you can have women.

They can come to Saudi Arabia, because we recognize U.S. law prohibits you to do business with us if you honour the boycott. We want your business, we want you r technical expertise . I would suggest that this law does that also here. It will allow companies to say, look we have a law in Manitoba. We cannot discriminate . We cannot do business with you if we are allowed to discriminate or if we do discriminate.

What will happen is, I would say in most cases, there will be a prevention in a manner where there will be no need for adjudi cation, where the situation will be one where the company that is discriminating against abroad will say we will waive the conditions and allow special cases for Manitoba companies in this case. That is what has happened in the U.S.

I thi nk the fact is that also with this bill as law in Manitoba, if that does not happen , there will be measures outlined in the bill to make sure that employees affected who are being discriminated against because of color by another jurisdiction, because of race by another jurisdiction, because of religion , because of sex by any other jurisdiction will be protected. Not only will they be protected but , if the business goes ahead with that other jurisdiction, they will be enfor ced by law to be offered equivalent employment or promotion or the next equivalent job coming up. I think this is an excellent bill.

I also look forward to its companion piece of legislation or regulation for the Crown corporations to adopt a similar policy and a non-discrimination policy parallel to this to ensure that Crown corporations and government agencies follow the same guidelines as we are requesting from the private sector. This has been promised , and I look forward to it. Mr. Deputy Speaker , I commend the bill to members on both sides of the House. I think it has been awaited by members on both sides of the House . The Member for Pembina, I certainly will expect to support this .

I will expect the Leader of the Opposition to support this and also , when the companion regulations come in and the companion legislation comes in, to ensure that the same thing that affects public and private employees equally becomes the law of the land for the Province of Manitoba, and that we are on the record with all foreign companies , with all foreign countries that we do not in Manitoba tolerate discrimination against our people. We will do our best through our legislation where we have jurisdiction to ensure that such discrimination does not take place. Thank you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and I commend this bill to my colleagues in the Legislature . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Attorney-General , Bill No. 25, The Discriminatory Business Practices Act . Stand? Is it agreed? (Agreed) BILL NO. 28 - THE HIGH-LEVEL RADIOACTIVE WASTE ACT MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of the Environment , Bill No. 28 , The High-Level Radioactive Waste Act , the Honourable Member for Inkster . MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you , Mr. Deputy Speaker . I'm pleased to stand this afternoon and speak on the 2478

Wednesday, 27 May, 1987 principles behind Bill No. 28 -(Interjection) - I expect it will be briefly, yes, Minister of Education . The High-Level Radioactive Waste Act, Mr. Deputy Speaker, shows a continuing commitment that this province, this government has towards protecting the future interests of the people of Manitoba . The purpose behind the act is to keep from ever being stored within this province high-level, nuclear-active waste that has not been generated within this province .

We, as Manitobans, share no responsibility with the follies of the Government of Ontario, the Government of Quebec, the Government of New Brunswick, and of course the Government of Canada, who has financed all the nuclear facilities there, in sharing or taking responsibility for the storage of the waste generated in those facilities . In Ontario today, I unders