May 7, 2002 GOVERNMENT SERVICES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Mr. Sweeney): Order, please!

Good evening. Sorry for the little delay. My name is George Sweeney, I am the

Chair of the Government Services Committee. I would ask the committee members to

introduce themselves.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands.

MR. ANDERSEN: Wally Andersen, MHA for Torngat Mountains.

MS JONES: Yvonne Jones, MHA for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

MR. J. BYRNE: Jack Byrne, MHA for Cape St. Francis.

MR. E. BYRNE: Ed Byrne, MHA for Kilbride.

CHAIR: Are you a guest?

MR. E. BYRNE: I am replacing Paul Shelley.

CHAIR: Do you have a sheet?

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible) last week or a couple of weeks ago.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. YOUNG: Wally Young, MHA for St. Barbe.

MR. COLLINS: Randy Collins, MHA for Labrador West.

CHAIR: Before we move any further, just a little bit of housekeeping.

Could I have a motion to adopt the minutes of the last meeting?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Just some housekeeping duties for our minister and his officials.

Before you speak make sure your light is on. Give Kevin a chance, I think he

only has one camera, so that he can identify you. Just state your name after

your light comes on and before you start your address.

Minister, if you would like to start some opening remarks.

MR. NOEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and members of the

committee. We appreciate this opportunity to discuss our department's

estimates and review some of our activities for the past year and plans for the

coming year.

With me tonight are: Barbara Wakeham, who is the Deputy Minister of the

department; Bill MacKenzie, Assistant Deputy Minister for Government Services;

Winston Morris, Assistant Deputy Minister for Consumer and Commercial Affairs;

Bill Parrott, Assistant Deputy Minister for Lands; and Wayne Moores, Manager of

Financial Operations.

Government Services and Lands consists of three branches: Government

Services; Consumer and Commercial Affairs; and Lands. We have about 500

employees who provide a wide range of services in various regions throughout the

Province. We administer more than eighty-five acts.

Our Government Services Branch provides accessible and efficient services to

the public and business community in the areas of public health and safety,

highway safety, driver and vehicle registrations, building accessability, vital

statistics, controlled use of land, and environmental standards enforcement.

This branch includes: five government service centres, Vital Statistics and

Motor Registration.

Our Consumer and Commercial Affairs Branch is responsible for ensuring that

consumer interests are protected, and commerce facilitated. This branch includes

Commercial Registries, Insurance and Pensions, Residential Tenancies,

Securities, Trade Practices and Licencing, and the Credit Union Deposit

Guarantee Corporation.

Our Lands Branch manages the Province's Crown Land, 95 per cent of all

provincial land; processes applications to acquire or use Crown lands; archives

Crown titles documents, and distributes maps and other land-related information.

This branch includes Crown Lands, Land Management, and Surveys and Mapping.

Our department has a wide range of duties and responsibilities. I believe we

do a pretty good job, but we are constantly endeavouring to do more -

particularly in improving consumer protection and awareness.

We believe collaboration and consultation are important. We make every effort

to work in partnership with our internal and external clients, and try to find

new and more effective ways to carry out our responsibilities and serve

citizens.

I would like to highlight a few of our current activities. This year, our

Government Services Branch will be hiring seven additional Environmental Health

Officers to test water quality in public water supplies. These officers will be

certified inspectors who will take samples from the tap-end of the supply. We

are hiring six Newfoundland students this summer who have been studying

environmental health at the University College of Cape Breton.

This year, almost all lab testing will be done at public health labs in

hospitals, instead of by our staff in office labs. This will enable our

inspectors to take additional samples throughout the Province, rather than

spending time in the lab.

This increase in funding to hire the Environmental Health Officers is part of

government's larger effort to ensure continued safe drinking water throughout

the Province, in concert with Health and Community Services, Environment, and

Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Each of these departments has also received an

increase in this year's budget to address water quality issues.

Our Government Services Branch acts on behalf of the Department of

Environment with respect to spill response situations. We have eleven

Environmental Health Officers deployed throughout the Province to respond in

these situations. These staff monitor, on a rotating shift basis, the Canadian

Coast Guard Environmental Emergency line, twenty-four hours a day, seven days a

week.

It is important to note that the polluter pays for clean up - not the

taxpayer. No one may pollute with impunity.

Last year, our department, and the Department of Environment, struck a

committee of consumers and fuel and insurance industry representatives to advise

government on regulation of domestic oil tanks and systems. This committee's

recommendations became effective April 1 of this year. Our staff monitor the

implementation of these regulations on behalf of the Department of Environment.

Last year, the Motor Registration Division instituted government's first

e-commerce application for consumers in providing for online motor vehicle

renewals. This service now handles more than 5 per cent of all renewals, with

some regions processing almost 8 per cent via the Internet. This year, we intend

to develop a similar Internet application for vehicle dealers to allow them to

register their sales directly with Motor Registration.

Criminal Code to increase a federal period of prohibition from driving for

impaired drivers. In addition, the Criminal Code now permits judges to include

provisions for reduction of prohibition periods where ignition interlock

programs are present in the Province's legislation. Many jurisdictions have

also implemented more severe penalties for repeat offenders, and introduced

vehicle impoundment for drivers found driving in violation of a suspension.

In response to the federal changes, a committee was established to review

existing penalties for persons convicted of alcohol offences. The committee's

mandate was to review and propose options in five major areas of driver

management as follows: driver licence suspension periods, administrative

suspensions, education/assessment/treatment, vehicle seizure/impoundment, and

interlock devices. These areas represent the major issues impacting persons

convicted of alcohol-related offences, and also represent areas that other

jurisdictions have focused attention on in the past several years to reduce

impaired driving.

We now have a bill before the Legislature to amend the Highway Traffic Act to

incorporate changes recommended by this committee to increase suspension

periods, introduce an ignition interlock pilot project, and provide for vehicle

seizure and impoundment. This legislation would make our laws among the toughest

in the country.

Last week government also gave first reading to a bill calling for a ban on

the use of hand-held cell phones by drivers while driving. We have researched

the use of cell phones by drivers, reviewed legislative initiatives elsewhere,

and concluded it is time to act.

We have also managed to get the fishing and trucking industries to agree to

meet regulations requiring the elimination of spillage from trucks transporting

fish products across the Province. Our department has been trying to enforce

this regulation for years. We have now agreed to a deadline of July 1 for strict

enforcement. As of that date fish processors, as a condition of their licence,

will be required to transport fish products in trucks which have containers or

drip tanks capable of containing all liquids and preventing leakage. Regulations

are now being amended to clearly define the nature of compliant trucks.

I would also like to point out that our Motor Registration Division assumed

responsibility for the Mobility Impaired Parking Program on January 2, 2002, and

eliminated the $25 permit fee. This was done at the request of various

stakeholder groups.

Last fall we issued a consultation paper on automobile insurance reform

containing fifty-one proposals which would provide for reduced cost of

insurance, restricted benefits in some areas, improved benefits in other areas,

greater penalties for impaired and uninsured drivers, and enhanced consumer

protection. I expect to be in a position to make recommendations to Cabinet on

the proposals soon, with the intent to have any new legislation ready for this

fall.

One of the proposals is to provide improved consumer education on insurance

matters. This issue was brought up by a number of respondents. Our department

has made a commitment to do more in this area. Included in this budget is

provision to hire an educational coordinator to develop consumer education

programs for insurance and other financial areas such as investments, pensions,

real estate, and pre-paid funerals. Also, additional funding has been provided

for the development, printing and promoting of consumer education material.

Government now has a bill before the House proposing the appointment of an

advocate to represent consumer interests at Public Utilities Board automobile

insurance rate hearings. This was one of the proposals contained in the

consultation paper. During the consultation process, consumers sent us a clear

message: They did not think their interests were being fully considered by the

parties involved and many indicated a clear mistrust in the overall automobile

insurance rate setting process. Government has heard those concerns and is

responding to them. We are moving quickly on this matter to ensure consumer

interests are properly represented if the Public Utilities Board holds a hearing

of automobile insurance rates in a few months.

Bingos have been in the news quite a bit lately. Bingo playing is illegal

under the Criminal Code of Canada unless they are licensed for charitable

purposes. Government approves bingo operations by charities on condition they

provide a minimum 15 per cent of gross revenues for charitable purposes. While

we believe that 15 per cent is a reasonable goal, about half of all operators

are not achieving it. We are working with them to try and improve this

situation.

In March of 2000, government approved satellite bingo to help increase

returns. We also introduced an eighteen month phased-in compliance period for

the 15 per cent return. This called for a 5 per cent return by June 2001, a 10

per cent by December 2001, and a 15 per cent by June of this year.

We also placed a motorium on new bingo licences, with the exception of

special events, in St. John's, Mount Pearl, Conception Bay South, and parts of

Conception Bay North until the end of the phased-in compliance period.

In 2001,approximately $50 million was spent on bingo in the Province. Of this

amount, about $37 million was given out in prizes, and $6 million was allocated

for expenditures such as supplies, rent, and salaries. This left about $7

million for charities, or 14.2 per cent.

The St. John's region has the lowest average return to charities at 10.57

per cent. We are holding meetings with licensees to explore ways to increase

these returns. It is interesting to note that since we have applied a more

strict application of regulations, returns to charities have increased

considerably.

Our budget this year also provides for a new financial examiner for our

Securities Commission to provide enhanced monitoring of activities in this area.

This is necessary, as more and more consumers are investing in mutual funds, the

stock markets and educational funds.

During the last fiscal year, we also increased the insurance on credit union

deposits from $60,000 per type of account to $250,000. Prior to the increase,

84.5 per cent of deposits were protected. Now, close to 100 per cent are

protected. The people of Newfoundland and Labrador have long depended on the

credit unions of the Province to supply them with the financial services they

have needed. By raising the limit for insured deposits, we have put in place an

insurance system that is more comprehensive than that currently offered by the

Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation.

The Credit Union Deposit Guarantee Corporation was established in 1994 to

regulate the industry and provide deposit protection for credit union members.

Government appoints the board, consisting of three government and three industry

representatives. It operates independently. Last November it found it necessary

to remove the board of the Labrador Savings Credit Union and seek its

amalgamation with the Eagle River Credit Union. This has yet to be concluded

since the action is being contested before the courts.

During the year we have raised questions about the need for proposed Cable TV

rate increases announced by Rogers Cable for three speciality channel packages

and the basic rate in Corner Brook. The amount of increase per customer, per

month, might not appear large but the total annual revenues to the company, and

the costs to consumers, will be significant.

I also wrote the Minister of Industry with respect to my concerns that Aliant

Telecom were proposing a common basic residential price across the Atlantic

region, which would mean higher prices in this Province. I am concerned with

their proposals which would result in higher costs for consumers in rural areas

than in urban areas. Further, I objected to the fact that the CRTC did not hold

hearings on the matter in this Province. Public hearings were held in Hull,

Quebec, which I attended, and at which I made a presentation.

On another consumer issue, I have endorsed statements by the Secretary of

State for International Financial Institutions regarding, as he described it,

grotesquely high credit card interest rates. I wrote to the federal minister

responsible for consumer affairs asking that action be taken with respect to

these exorbitant rates.

While most interest rates are tied to the Bank of Canada rate, now at a

forty-year low, rates charged on some credit cards, especially retail cards,

seem to be excessively high. Given that many credit card issuers are reluctant

to reduce interest rates, the federal government must review this matter to

determine how consumers might be better protected.

I do not accept arguments that things are okay the way they are, and that

consumers have lots of choice when it comes to credit cards. If a rate is

unfair, it is unfair. It is as simple as that.

I have also asked the federal Finance Minister to eliminate recent levies

imposed on air travellers to offset the cost of new security measures for the

airline industry.

We recognize and agree with the need for increased security for the

travelling public in the wake of the tragic events of September 11; however, we

disagree with funding such initiatives through a user pay system. The imposition

of additional charges on travellers is unfair when the intent of the new

security measures is to protect the public generally.

Airline travel is currently extremely expensive in smaller, remote markets

such as Newfoundland and Labrador. I have urged the federal minister to draw the

Last month we announced details regarding our Financial Awareness Month

activities, our Financial Awareness Month Web site, and a special Financial

Awareness Project undertaken in co-operation with the North American Securities

Administrators Association and the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of St. John's.

The highlight was the launching of a special financial awareness course to be

piloted as part of the archdiocese's marriage preparation program. A new

publication entitled Planning for Your Financial Future serves as the

main document for the course. This publication, as well as an instructor's

guide, are both posted on the Web site.

Financial literacy is essential to the financial stability of all

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. We want to ensure citizens are in a position

to make well-informed, educated decisions about where and how they invest and

manage their personal incomes.

We are also making efforts to improve the operation of our Registry of Deeds

and Companies by modernizing equipment and improving administrative procedures.

Turning to our Lands Branch, I would point out that Crown Lands has been very

busy with the implementation of a new computer-based, inter-regional,

inter-agency system; and, when coupled with ongoing business rules, changes will

improve efficiency in the complex process of managing our land resources for the

benefit of all, while being timely in the issuance of Crown titles. This system

will initially be used internally, but parts of it will eventually be available

to the public via the Internet. The system will streamline decision making and

allow access to the provincial maps and data bases Province wide, and once fully

implemented will provide for the application for Crown land at any regional

office.

The Lands Branch has also expended considerable effort in property mapping

along the Coast of Labrador, and resource mapping in Central Labrador, both in

support of the land claims negotiations.

New technological developments in digital mapping, Web-mapping services, and

satellite positioning are changing the way the branch does business. Last year,

nearly all of the base maps the branch uses to manage resources and lands were

converted to digital format. The staff are currently preparing these maps for

use on the Internet.

Over 50 per cent of the large scale mapping that now exists has been produced

within the last ten years. The branch is now calling contracts for mapping in

the CBS, Paradise, Portugal Cove-St. Phillip's and western portions of the

City of St. John's.

This work will revise mapping that is older than twenty years. Through

partnering with municipalities and industry, we have been able to increase the

number of maps produced annually by 40 per cent.

I would also like to mention our ongoing efforts, in conjunction with the

federal government, in the federally-funded GeoConnections Program. This program

is managed by the Surveys and Mapping Division in partnership with other

divisions and departments of government and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. The

main goal of the GeoConnections Program is to make geospatial data available

throughout government and to the public on the Internet.

One project under this program is entitled, Administrative Boundaries. It

provides standard digital versions of municipal boundaries, electoral districts,

parks and eco zones. The Lands Branch is currently defining the regional

economic zones under this project, and other data layers may be added.

The other GeoConnections project is called, Connecting and Sharing Geospatial

Data in Newfoundland and Labrador. The scope of this multi-year project is

ambitious and includes: searchable indexes to digital data; establishing

Internet publishing facilities; Internet viewing of all base maps; Internet

viewing of Crown titles and land use; and interconnection of geospatial Web

services.

These exciting advances are made possible by recent developments in

technology, but they also reflect years of sustained effort by the branch.

The department is continuing its program of cottage development in

conjunction with other government resource management departments and

representatives from the pulp and paper industry. The program involves the

establishment of large administrative areas and the designation of specific

locations within them where planned cottage development may occur. The purpose

of this program is to reduce resource related land use conflicts and provide

recreational cottage opportunities to the public.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, thank you very much for this

opportunity. I welcome your suggestions, questions and observations.

CHAIR: In Elizabeth's absence, I will call the first subhead, 1.1.01.,

and we will commence our questioning.

Ed.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you.

Does he have to table that document, Mr. Chair?

CHAIR: Don't start that tonight.

MR. E. BYRNE: I am not going to.

MR. NOEL: Sure, we will table it, no problem.

MR. E. BYRNE: No requirement; no request, I should say.

MR. NOEL: No request, good.

MR. E. BYRNE: I appreciate the extensive outline because it does provide,

certainly for me, as a member of the committee, greater insight in terms of what

the department does. Probably, in terms of the public understanding of the

department, it is not well-known. It is more well-known, I would think, than it

has been in the past, largely due to your efforts. I mean that sincerely. It is

a department that affects the day-to- day lives of everybody in terms of what is

within the scope and purview of the department.

I do not have a lot of questions. I just have probably ten or fifteen

minutes, if that would be okay with the Chair and the Committee members. I will

be done for the evening then.

CHAIR: Normally, the way I operate is a relaxed mode.

MR. E. BYRNE: Fair enough, as we did before.

CHAIR: We will just try to achieve our goal, like before.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay, thank you.

In terms of Crown land, and what you have indicated in terms of the

improvements in trying to map out what is Crown Land, does the department - you

have indicated, in terms of St. John's West and Paradise, that area in terms

of mapping out Crown land, do you have any idea how much Crown land is now

available in that region that you have talked about?

MR. NOEL: Mr. Parrott is probably the best one to deal with that.

MR. PARROTT: The mapping that the minister referred to in his opening

remarks is base- mapping, which is basic mapping to show exactly all the

physical and cultural characteristics on the landscape; because the mapping that

is currently in use is twenty-five to thirty years old.

To answer directly to your question, not all the titles that are issued in

those areas that you mentioned have been plotted based on the fact that many of

the titles in the greater St. John's area date back sometimes as far back as

the 1840s. The survey information that attaches to them is insufficient to plot

them. As well, there are a lot of titles that were burnt in the fire of 1892.

That, coupled with the fact that adverse possession is the route of many titles,

which is possession against the Crown of sixty years, and without compulsory

land registration in the Province it is not necessary for somebody who is

claiming a title to actually register it in a Registry of Deeds, it makes land

ownership issues around metropolitan St. John's very difficult.

MR. E. BYRNE: I have a number of them, certainly, in the district I

represent in terms of Crown land in the Kilbride/Goulds area and others that

constituents have come in from time to time and have faced the very issues that

you have talked about, simply because of past practices, I suppose, and land

being passed from one family generation to another generation, et cetera.

In terms of how much, do you have any idea of how much land is available that

the Crown owns in that area or that can be considered Crown land, I guess,

within the scope and definition of what Crown land is?

MR. PARROTT: All I would be giving you is an educated ballpark guess.

MR. E. BYRNE: It is not something I am going to hold your feet to the

fire on, I assure you. I am just trying to get a sense of how much we are

talking about, that is all.

MR. PARROTT: Well, once you get outside the built-up area of the city and

outside the Goulds and Kilbride, down that area, you are looking probably

upwards of 80 per cent or 85 per cent that is Crown land.

MR. NOEL: Very little in the city itself.

MR. PARROTT: Very little in the city itself, yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: In terms of your interaction with other departments - I

would suspect it is many departments you interact with on that - with respect to

the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods, have there been any recent

discussions on making some Crown land available for more agricultural purposes

within the Province? I am thinking specifically related to the recent decision

on the industrial milk quota, for example, that is going to allow for a lot of

secondary processing in products such as cheese, cottage cheese, yogurts, et

cetera, which we mainly import now but, because of the assignment of an

industrial milk quota, it is going to provide an opportunity for significant

growth in an industry and jobs and employment, but associated with that, one of

the areas that the agricultural industry faces, I guess, the challenge is the

availability of land for forage, and to grow forage. It is one of the areas

where, for example, last year many farmers or producers within the Province,

because of the extreme weather conditions face the drought situation because

they could not get a second cut of hay and that is directly related to the

amount of land available to them. I am just presenting a series of conditions, I

suppose, of what some producers are facing.

Have there been any discussions with the Department of Forest Resources and

Agrifoods related to making Crown land available that would be deemed as

suitable to the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods for the purposes of

agricultural purposes or for providing to existing producers in the Province,

whether it be root crop, dairy producers, et cetera, the availability of Crown

land that could be cleared, that would be seen as suitable for forage to provide

greater land mass and thus ensuring, I guess, a greater potential of the

industry to thrive and survive?

MR. NOEL: I am not aware of any particular discussions. Ms Wakeham, do

you...?

MS WAKEHAM: Well, I haven't had any direct discussions with Forest

Resources and Agrifoods on this. We have always made Crown land available to

other government departments for the purposes of whatever the activity is. The

last dealings that I had, that I am aware of, we had the agricultural

development lands set aside. There had not been any requests at that point in

time for additional forage areas, but if Forest Resources and Agrifoods come to

us and we have lands (inaudible) and available for that purpose, then certainly.

Unless it is encumbrance or something, we are certainly prepared to make that

available.

MR. PARROTT: The officials we have worked closely with, agriculture in

particular, and forestry as well, in terms of making land available - usually

there are certain areas throughout the Province that are designated as land

development areas. These are Crown lands that have a high potential through soil

testing and proximity to existing commercial farms. These areas are reserved for

agricultural purposes only.

Also, when we have agricultural land that reverts to the Crown we work in

consultation with the agriculture people to make sure that they review it. A

certain amount of these lands are reallocated based on a bid basis by existing

commercial farmers in the area. We also have a program with agriculture to

ensure that we do not crowd commercial farms with other types of land uses that

would conflict; to ensure that areas are set and reserved for these farms to

expand so that a farm can be financially viable instead of having several

smaller farms where everybody fails, and you have a larger farm. So this is an

ongoing process.

As well, we make land available to agriculture to exchange, notably in the

Gould's forage area. As they acquire lands certain people want to acquire

other pieces of property; Crown land in exchange to build a house on, where they

cannot go in the forage area. We have worked hand-in-hand with agriculture on

these projects. This is an ongoing process within the divisions.

With forestry it is an ongoing issue because the three branches try to do a

lot of consultation to ensure that forestry does not spend money on silviculture

projects next to commercial farms or in areas where farming could occur because

then you would have a conflict of timber resources and agriculture. So there is

an ongoing conflict. We are working with the maps to make sure that the maps are

suitable on a computer basis; that all the departments can use the same maps so

that these problems are seen before they develop.

MR. NOEL: That is a pretty comprehensive answer I think, but it is the

policy of government generally to encourage people to put more land in the

Province to use for agricultural purposes. That has been a personal objective of

mine since I have been involved in government. I think we should be producing a

lot more of our own food and dairy products, and that sort of thing. I would

like to see more of it happen. Certainly, we will do anything we can to

facilitate it.

MR. E. BYRNE: One of the problems that many producers are facing, given

the elimination of the (inaudible) subsidy and other things that have occurred,

both provincially and nationally - one of the problems in terms of the

agricultural sector itself, in its ability for some existing operations to

survive, is the access to a land base. For example, government instituted or

provided, based upon some lobbying and a proposal being put forward to them last

year prior to Christmas, responded - because of the drought farmers and many

producers were in a position, because of the weather conditions, that they had

extraordinary costs because they were unable to get, for example, a second cut

of hay off their existing land base. Particularly in Musgravetown East this

occurred because the weather was more extreme in terms of drought conditions.

But, had many of them had the land base, which was the fundamental problem -

they would not have been in that position if there was more suitable

(inaudible).

I am just trying to get a better understanding, for my own point of view, of

the relationship between Crown Lands and making the availability of Crown land

based upon a request, or requests, from the Department of Forest Resources and

Agrifoods for extra land base or extra Crown land available for that purpose, in

terms of more forage areas.

Just a quick question on the bidding process. Again, this is a question from

a novice, and why I ask it in terms of - How did the bidding process work? You

referenced earlier the bidding process for those areas. Could you explain that

to me?

MR. PARROTT: No, I am not going to be able to explain it. That is a

process that is internal to agriculture. We reserve the property, the land, and

agriculture has a -

MR. E. BYRNE: And agriculture administers the bidding process.

MR. PARROTT: They administer it and then they tell us who to issue the

title to, and we administer the titles there.

MR. E. BYRNE: So, you are under direction and that is where it is?

MR. PARROTT: Yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: I am fine for the moment, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a number of questions with respect to the estimates themselves and

subheads, but I have other questions prepared. I will just get into those first

maybe. Some of these you actually touched on in your introduction. Maybe parts

of these questions are already answered, so be it.

The facility association, a non-profit organization of course - you are quite

familiar with - established under the Insurance Act. Does the department have

any information on how much is collected through this facility each year? How

much is dispersed as a result of payment? Over the last ten years, what has been

the net differences?

MR. NOEL: Mr. Morris has a lot of detailed information on that one.

MR. MORRIS: We do have all of those figures available. I do not have them

tonight at my fingertips. There was a hearing at the Public Utilities Board

about a year ago, which I intervened on behalf of the Province, with respect to

the rates of facility associations. As part of that, we did an analysis of money

collected since their inception and money paid out. It is clear to me that over

the long haul the facility association has been profitable. They made more money

than they paid out in claims. During the last half of the 1990s, in particular,

they were quite profitable. Last year they had significant loses, but overall,

they have been a profitable enterprise.

MR. J. BYRNE: We can get the details later?

MR. MORRIS: Sure, I have the exact numbers up in the office. I do not

have them at my fingertips but I can certainly get them for you; absolutely.

MR. J. BYRNE: Can the department provide information as to the cost of

the implementation and maintenance of a petroleum regulation system in this

Province last year?

MR. MORRIS: I think it was in the area of $350,000 or something;

approximately $350,000. Again, we can get you the precise figures later.

MR. J. BYRNE: Obviously then, you can give me the cost of this fiscal

year to maintain the petroleum regulation system?

MR. NOEL: Now, you understand that for the first year we provide the

financing to set up the office but in future years the industry is going to be

assessed contributions to the cost of the office so taxpayers will not be paying

any of the costs. The industry will entirely finance the operations of the

directive.

Incidently, it might be worth noting that one state in the United States,

Hawaii, has now also instituted a petroleum pricing office very similar to ours.

As a matter of fact, they have consulted with us for information on how to do

it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Of course, this is only a question. I know the answer

before I ask it, I suppose. You feel that it is working? The people of the

Province are benefitting from it?

MR. NOEL: Well, I think that the Province feels it is working. Most of

the more prominent spokespersons on petroleum issues within the Province have

been very supportive of the work of the office. I think that people generally

think it is doing a pretty reasonable job but, of course, it has only had a

short term to operate so far. We will see what happens over the longer run.

MR. J. BYRNE: Wasn't it a fact though, that when the office was

established there were prices that were down and now since the world prices

started to go back up, the rates are going up? So, it is really having an

impact, or is it just delaying the inevitable, type of thing?

MR. NOEL: Well, it was never intended to prevent prices from going up and

down. What it was intended to do was stabilize the changes and try and limit

price changes to once a month. Prior to the establishment of the office we were

seeing prices fluctuate sometimes on a daily basis, and even within the same

day. Most people who have spoken to me about it have indicated that they think

that alone makes the office a worthwhile venture.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, we will get a breakdown of how much it did cost to

implement?

MR. NOEL: Yes, you can have - I do know, do we have the details at hand?

Anyway, if we come across them tonight we will give them to you, otherwise, we

will provide them after this evening. We did not realize you would require that

detail.

MR. J. BYRNE: Actually, when I was hearing your introduction there I was

thinking: well, this is like a preempted strike, type of thing; that most of our

questions we have you already touched on.

The next few I have here is with respect to bingo, and you may have been

(inaudible). Can the minister provide a list of the bingos that have been forced

out of business as result of the bingo regulations introduced by the government

last year?

MR. NOEL: Zero. We haven't forced anyone out of business.

MR. J. BYRNE: But is there any gone out of business?

MR. NOEL: Some have decided not to renew their licences but, as far as I

can recall, we haven't forced any operation to quit that way.

MR. MORRIS: No, we haven't forced anyone to close. Several did close

because, actually, a number were losing money and they voluntarily said - well,

they were not going to bother to stay open.

MR. J. BYRNE: Maybe it was a poor choice of words saying they were forced

out of business, but by bringing in these regulations how many closed as a

result of that? If they are saying that they voluntarily closed and they were

losing money, would they still be open maybe if those regulations were not in

place?

MR. MORRIS: There are about, I think, to date, approximately twenty

across the whole Province that closed. That is not an exact number, but it is in

that range.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

MR. NOEL: Most likely they would still be operating if they wanted to,

because everybody who appealed we worked with and gave them some ideas about how

we felt they could have more successful operations, and we have worked to get

commitments from them to change their methods of operation. So, even those

people who have closed, if they had appealed and if they had spoken to us about

what they planned to do, nobody would have been required to close.

This is a very difficult issue and it is very difficult to have uniform

regulations right across the Province and deal with particular situations. We

are putting a lot of time and effort into trying to do that, trying to improve

the returns for charities, and we are having some success.

MR. J. BYRNE: Are there any more in danger of losing their licences

because they cannot meet that percentage that you put in place? Is there

potential for more to go out of business because of that?

MR. NOEL: Oh, yes. As of the end of December last year, I think some

seventy operations were in jeopardy of losing their licence because they never

met the 10 per cent return requirement. I think over fifty of them have appealed

a notification they got that their licence would be withdrawn. Is that the

latest number, fifty-five or something?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. NOEL: I sent out a letter to them three or four weeks ago, I guess,

telling them that we were assessing the situation and encouraging anybody who

wanted to continue to appeal the notice indicating that we would work with them

and see if we can find a way to make their operation as satisfactory, and we

assured them that they would have until at least the end of May, this month, to

try and come to an understanding with the department about how they can improve

their operations.

MR. J. BYRNE: Further to that, I was thinking about - and I think it was

brought up in the House - these small bingo operations in, say, rural

Newfoundland. It might be the Lions Club or the Kinsmen or something like that,

having bingos and donating to charity. I know down in Pouch Cove, for example,

you have the Lions down there. Every function I attend, they are donating money

to the schools or the fire hall, or whatever the case may be. I am wondering

what impact these regulations have on these very small operations that are

really there for nothing else other than charities, and taking no money out of

it for themselves.

MR. NOEL: It is really hard to generalize, because we have looked at all

the operations in the Province and you cannot say that smaller operations do a

better job of making returns for charities than larger operations. Some of the

smaller ones do really well, and some of the larger ones do poorly, and some of

the larger ones do well also. We are faced again with the problem of having to

have uniform regulations. Everybody has to be treated fairly and equitably. We

can have different regulations for different categories of operations but,

within that, everybody has to be treated fairly.

We often hear that people have a particular sympathy for smaller operations,

in more rural parts of the Province and that sort of thing. Even in the largest

operations, some of these umbrella operations in St. John's are turning over

$2.5 million to $3 million a year but they are comprised of small charities. I

think the largest group is thirteen charities, and most of them are six or

seven, I think. Some of them are individually very small charities, worthwhile

charities and that sort of thing. It is the charity that has the licence, and

not the umbrella group as such, so it is very difficult to try to make

regulations that -

MR. J. BYRNE: I don't know if it is really right to compare bingo

operations in, say, St. John's or Corner Brook and these areas to a community

which has 500 or 600 people living there. I do not see making that comparison.

MR. NOEL: In what way?

MR. J. BYRNE: Just in the basic survival of these operations at the best

of times, and then trying to pay this 15 per cent.

MR. NOEL: Some of them do very well. Half of all the bingo operations in

the Province raise about 15 per cent. Some of them are very small and some of

them are quite large. One of the largest ones, I guess, like the satellite bingo

operation, I think they have already returned something like $1.7 million, is

it? to charities, and they have only been in operation just over a year, and

VOCM radio bingo returns a lot.

It is not our intention to prevent anybody who wants to operate a bingo from

continuing to do so, but unless we have some standard of minimum requirement, we

think that the returns for charity would deteriorate even more than is the case

today.

MR. J. BYRNE: Certainly and obviously it would not be your intention to

put any of these operations out of business but, by the mere fact of the

regulations being in place, it could actually do that. Has there been any

analysis done on the reduction in the amount of money that is going to charities

now through the bingos that have gone out of business, or are potentially going

out of business? Has there been any analysis done on that?

MR. NOEL: I repeat that we have not required anybody to close down to

date, but most of those who have decided not to continue operating were not

raising very much money anyway and, in some cases, as Winston just indicated,

were actually losing money.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much is it costing the department to monitor and

implement these regulations?

MR. NOEL: Do you have the figure, Winston or Barbara?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. NOEL: I guess we don't have that figure broken down because it is

done as part of a larger unit.

MR. MORRIS: We don't have a breakdown of the numbers because the staff

who monitor bingo also do other things, like monitor real estate and so on. We

do spend a lot of time on it, no doubt; my time, the deputy's time and the

staff's time. We do spend a lot of time on bingo, but we always have. In the

last number of years, we have been spending a lot of time trying to get returns

to charities. Even before we put in this phase-in period, there had been a lot

of time spend on it.

Also, I might answer your previous question a little bit about the impact the

enforcing of the rules has had in the last little while. We did an analysis, and

in the last six months of last year charities actually received over $200,000

more in return to them than in the first six months of last year. It seems to be

the fact that we are going out working with these charities and showing them

ways in how they can increase their returns. It seems to be working and

increasing returns to charities all in all.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. You answered my next question.

Anyway, we will move along away from bingo. The Government Services Centre of

the department - I understand the Memorandum of Understanding with the

Department of Health with respect to water inspections. Can the department

provide information as to the testing procedures; describe the number of tests

being conducted a month; how water bodies are chosen for testing; the length of

time before the results of such testing are known; and the procedure by which

those results are recorded and reported?

MR. NOEL: Mr. MacKenzie has that detail.

MR. MACKENZIE: I do not have it with me, Mr. Byrne, but I think we can

get most of that. I might have to ask you to repeat the whole list of everything

you wanted.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Basically, what I am asking you is to provide the

information as to the testing procedures.

MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Describe the number of tests being conducted a month.

MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: How water bodies are chosen for testing; that's an

interesting one. The length of time before the results of such testing are

known, and the procedures by which those results are recorded and reported.

I would imagine there is an actual agreement between both departments, a

Memorandum of Understanding. Would it be possible to get a copy of that? Would

that be public?

MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I want to get onto something here now and it has to do with

water. It is something that came up this past summer in the rural areas, in and

around St. John's, it is down my way in particular and up in Kilbride, and

that is the pollution of artesian wells. There were a number down my way in

particular. When I went and had mine tested it was good; thank God.

The question that I am asking - and this was brought to my attention and it

probably should have been brought up in the House by now - on the mainland in

different areas, in different jurisdictions - when you put down your artesian

well, you might be down100 feet, 200 feet, 300 feet or whatever the case may be,

then you put down the casing. You might go down one length or twenty - it could

be two lengths or three lengths - to get to the bedrock. I know it is not in

mine. There are regulations in place on the mainland where at the bottom of this

you put a seal. You put it down and it expands out tight to the bedrock to

prevent any pollution of water coming down outside the pipe and getting down

into your artesian well. Are there any regulations in place in the Province with

respect to that? Because I think that could be a major cause of why our wells

are being polluted.

MR. MACKENZIE: We do not administer the well drilling act but there is a

well drilling act in the Province with the Department of Environment. I am not

sure on the specifics but I can check for you; but the Department of Environment

does regulate the drilling of wells in the Province.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. I always thought it was with you guys because of the

water inspections.

CHAIR: Jack, we will give you a little break now. We will move on to

Randy.

MR. J. BYRNE: Sure.

MR. COLLINS: I do not have very many questions at all.

Minister, I just want to respond to a couple of things you mentioned in your

opening remarks. One of the things I want to respond to is the security fee that

is being charged now on tickets. I know that we asked this in the House the

other day, what government is doing, what the Province is doing in terms of

trying to get the federal government to do away with that tax. I think

government has written a letter asking Ottawa to review their position on that

or to lower it. When, in fact, we believe that the security of the citizens in

the country should be a federal government responsibility. The $24 per ticket

that is being charged - I would like for government to write a stronger letter

because the whole issue of security in the country is targeted just at one group

of people, and that is the airline travelers. It is not being targeted at people

who drive cars, it is not being targeted at any other group specific to the

airline industry. It is going to generate, by all predictions, about four or

five times as much revenue as what is actually going to be spent on increasing

security.

Really, one of the first things, if government was serious about increasing

security, would be to address the issue of what is causing a turnover in the

security guard workers, which is low pay. It is barely above minimum wage. I

think in Boston, prior to September 11, the year prior to that, there was a

turnover of 250 per cent in security guard personnel. These are some of the

things I just want to touch on that you mentioned in your remarks.

MR. NOEL: We certainly agree with you. I made some public comments and

wrote to the Minister of Transport about that issue from a consumer perspective.

Other ministers did the same thing. We have a committee of ministers that deals

with the air industry, aerospace, and the military operations in the Province.

We have had a number of meetings with different industry representatives and we

are in the process now of looking at what we may be able to do to more

effectively make that case with the federal government because I believe, as you

do, that the federal government should be financing the entire cost of that, and

they should be financing it out of general revenues because you are not just

protecting the people in the airplanes, you are protecting the whole country. We

think that is a good case to make. I see where your party had a recent

initiative on that, and that is certainly in keeping with the efforts that we

are making.

MR. COLLINS: Crown lands; on the issue of Crown lands, minister, I have

some concerns and it has been brought to my attention. I think you and I have

discussed Crown lands on a couple of occasions, and I did with the previous

ministers as well. In Labrador West, for example, the department of forestry -

somehow your department and the department of forestry had, I guess, an

agreement that they would use the one office that used to be located in Wabush.

People there could go over and get a map of the area of what was available for

cottage development and all these sorts of things. Right now you cannot do that

anymore. You have to call Goose Bay and they will send you a fax and a map that

is as old as Methuselah, that is hand drawn, not accurate in many cases, and it

is showing cottage development areas where the land is already utilized. So it

is not there.

When you talk about new maps and new mapping, are there any plans for your

department - I guess what I am asking is: Would your department revisit that and

see if maps could be kept locally through some arrangement, even if it is with

the department of forestry or some other department that is already established

in Labrador West?

MR. NOEL: As I indicated, we are doing a lot to try and upgrade our

abilities to supply maps and make them available. I do not know if the deputy or

Mr. Parrott has a little more detail they can supply on that.

MS WAKEHAM: There has always been a problem with the cadastral maps,

which is the ownership maps, in terms of being updated. We realize that this is

a problem. We have been doing a lot now in terms of just getting the base maps

for Labrador done.

I am not sure what the situation is with making available maps, but it

depends on how many maps need to be made available. We have a central registry

in Happy Valley-Goose Bay for the maps for the Labrador region. We do not have

any intention of putting an office in the west, because obviously we are into a

savings reduction as opposed to increasing staff, but whether or not there is

some appropriate mechanism that we could use to try and facilitate the

availability of maps in the west, we are certainly prepared to look at it.

MR. COLLINS: The only way people can get a map now, if they want to put a

cabin in a certain area, is to call Goose Bay. Goose Bay would fax one into them

on a fax machine. Right away, that tells you what quality you are getting. Like

I said, that was shared before with, I think it was, the department of forestry.

You could go over there at any time during the week and pick one up.

MS WAKEHAM: I do not know. Maybe, Bill, you know?

MR. PARROTT: Up until 1988, we shared an office in Wabush with forestry

and there was a resource officer there who did lands as well as forestry work,

and when lands moved from forestry that arrangement was no longer in effect. As

the minister stated in his opening remarks, we are moving towards a system where

all our maps are digital, which is computer-based, and this is a problem, as you

have said, throughout the Province where people cannot quickly walk into one of

our five offices. By making our maps available in a digital format, they will be

available through the government Web application initially through government

offices but then put it out to the Web for anybody with Web access to the

government Web page. That is where we are putting our effort, so that if

somebody in Lab West wants to look at the local lands available in, say,

Ashuanipi River, or if they want to look in their hometown of Burgeo, they would

be able to get the most up-to-date accurate maps that are available throughout

anywhere in the Province; it would be available on-line.

MR. COLLINS: Is there any time frame for that? I don't mean, now, is it

going to be done by May 17, or anything like that.

MR. PARROTT: We are aiming to get our base maps up on-line some time in

the next six months, and then the Crown titles layer and eventually the

application layer will follow after that in short intervals.

MR. COLLINS: Okay.

I do not have any further questions, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Jack?

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

In May of last year the Premier announced $50 million for action on water

quality. I have a list of stuff here that they said they were going to be using

it for: increasing the number of inspectors, which you already addressed, and

that type of thing. How much of the $50 million did your department receive the

last fiscal year, and what was the money used for?

MS WAKEHAM: We did not receive $50 million. We received enough money to

hire five -

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what I am asking: How much of that did you receive?

I didn't think you received $50 million.

MS WAKEHAM: We received approximately $200,000.

WITNESS: Closer to $300,000; five inspectors plus expenses.

MS WAKEHAM: Five inspectors plus expenses, so probably closer to $300,000

because you had travel and things. This year we received $453,000, roughly, to

get seven inspectors. That is the total amount of money that we have received

for the water testing. Basically, that was our priority, that most of the money

of the $50 million was going to infrastructure under Municipal and Provincial

Affairs.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Apparently, last September, Government Services and Lands commissioned its

survey on the use of cell phones while driving. We see the results, of course,

now with the proposed legislation. Who was hired to complete the survey? How

much did it cost? Were such services publicly tendered? When were they tendered?

Can the minister provide a copy of the survey and subsequent report?

MR. NOEL: It cost about $1,000., I think it was. It was done by Corporate

Research Associates. It was not tendered by us because it was a question added

to - the government has a contract or an arrangement with that firm to do

periodic polling, so our question was added as one of government's questions.

The results of the poll have been made available publicly. I would be happy to

provide you with a copy.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought it would be a bit more involved than that, so

just basically a question added to a survey that government normally has done.

MR. NOEL: Yes. They do these quarterly surveys and every time the

departments have an opportunity to add a question, if they have one, and that

sort of thing.

MS WAKEHAM: It is $500 a question.

MR. NOEL: It is $500 a question, and we asked two questions in that

particular one.

MR. J. BYRNE: Also, last year you commissioned a survey on the

restriction of auto insurance claims to control auto insurance costs in the

Province. The same type of thing?

MR. NOEL: Yes, exactly.

We did two, actually. We did one last November, I think, and another one this

past February. We kind of got two different responses, although the questions

were asked a bit differently. Everybody has their own view of how well a

question is structured to get the most objective responses, but one indicated

that there was substantial interest in the possibility of restricting

compensation. The second one indicated that a majority did not accept the idea

of restricting compensation.

MR. J. BYRNE: Basically, you almost answered my next question.

The next question was going to be: Can you tell us the number of surveys that

your department commissioned last year? Those were the only two?

MR. NOEL: Yes, I think so, were they? Two on insurance and -

MS WAKEHAM: (Inaudible) and February.

MR. J. BYRNE: Just the two? Okay.

You say that the survey reports are available?

MR. NOEL: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Can we get copies of those?

MR. NOEL: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

MR. NOEL: We made them public at the time we received them.

MR. J. BYRNE: The next question I have is on the ignition interlock. You

already addressed that, but in the meantime I will read the question and see.

Last year the department set up a committee to report on measures designed to

combat impaired driving. As part of that, the use of an ignition interlock

system was discussed. Has the department received any information on the cost of

implementing such a system in this Province? If so, how much would it cost?

MR. NOEL: That is one of the reasons, I think, that the committee that

was established recommended against setting up an interlock system. A lot of the

organizations that are pretty close to this issue were represented on that

committee, including the police organizations, government officials, and that

sort of thing. We felt that we should take a serious look at implementing it,

and I asked the department officials to devise a pilot project for doing so.

They did that, and we have now indicated in the bill, actually, that was tabled

in the House today, that we are proceeding with that pilot project.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much would it cost to implement that?

MR. NOEL: We are going to require people who will use it to pay the cost

themselves. It is intended that it will not be any cost to taxpayers generally.

It is supposed to be a self-financing thing for the people who use it. We expect

the cost to individuals using it will be in the area of $1,500.

MR. J. BYRNE: Are you saying that the people who will be required to use

the interlock system will only be people who have been probably charged with

impaired driving and found guilty, and then, as part off their punishment,

would...?

MR. NOEL: Nobody would be required to use it. It would be there as an

option. If an individual wanted to get their licence back in a shorter time

frame, it is likely that the courts would provide that option, as long as they

agree to participate in this interlock program. But, in order to participate,

such people, as a group, will have to share the entire cost of the program. As I

said, we anticipate -

MR. J. BYRNE: I can see a lot of complications with that in itself. What

you just said was that, if a person was found guilty of impaired driving, to get

their licence back earlier they would possibly go through this process and get

their licence back six months earlier, or whatever the case may be. Then they

would have their licence back. Can they go out and drive another vehicle?

MR. NOEL: Well, that is one of the difficulties with that. It would be

illegal for them to do that. They would be breaking the law again, and

subjecting themselves to more serious penalties. That is one of the arguments

against it; it is difficult to enforce. There is no way to make sure the person

drives the car that is outfitted with the interlock. That is just one of the

things that we will have to deal with, but to do so will subject people to much

more onerous fines.

MR. J. BYRNE: That system, in my mind, is only going to be applicable to

the people who are caught impaired driving. What about those people who are

driving impaired often, who do not get caught? I was thinking that it would be

more or less along the lines - I am not saying it should or should not be - that

if you put this in place, any vehicle that was sold would have this in place,

installed, and it would be part of the process to start the car, type of thing,

almost.

MR. NOEL: That every car would have one installed?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. NOEL: Well, we have not given any consideration to that. I mean, that

would be creating a significant cost for every individual who buys a car and

there is no requirement that anybody would have to abide by it. People would be

free to do it of their own accord. I would not see government bringing in that

kind of regulation.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, thank you.

How much would it cost the department to appoint and maintain the office of

the auto insurance consumer representative?

MR. NOEL: We anticipate $100,000 per hearing.

MR. J. BYRNE: One hundred thousand?

MR. NOEL: One hundred thousand dollars per hearing. Like, it would not be

a permanent position. Somebody would just be appointed when a hearing is called,

but it would not be paid for by taxpayers. The advocate would be paid by the

Public Utilities Board, and then the insurance industry would be assessed to

cover the cost. There will be no cost to the provincial Treasury.

MR. J. BYRNE: Insurance will not go up?

MR. NOEL: Pardon?

MR. J. BYRNE: Insurance rates will not go up then?

MR. NOEL: I guess, naturally, the insurance industry will try to recoup

those costs from policy holders but the cost per policy holder on a $100,000

charge would be very minimal.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much has the Department of Government Services and

Lands paid to consultants in the last two years?

MR. NOEL: I do not know.

MR. J. BYRNE: That would be in the Estimates anyway. That would be broken

down in the Estimates.

WITNESS: Purchased Services, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much has the department spent on advertising promotion

in the last fiscal year?

MR. NOEL: Twenty thousand, is it?

MS WAKEHAM: Twenty thousand dollars.

MR. J. BYRNE: Twenty thousand?

MR. NOEL: Is that the total? Were there other divisions that may have

spent something additional?

MS WAKEHAM: The money that was spent on promotional, we put $20,000 - we

did not actually have an allocation for promotion for consumer information. We

used our professional services money within the executive vote in order to be

able to carry out some promotional stuff this year. Last year we had no vote for

it either, but in terms of doing job ads and recruitment, and things that are

spent for trade shows, mostly for newspaper articles for recruitment across all

divisions and all departments, I think the total was $120,000.

I have an actual breakdown of everything that we have spent, and we have made

that available so you can have that, but it is mostly for recruitment positions.

Job ads in the papers is the biggest portion of it. Also, we have trade shows

that we do to improve consumer awareness of certain programs that we have, so we

have monies that we paid for trade booths and for publications and pamphlets and

things that we did. We have already provided that information under our Freedom

of Information, so you can have a copy of that. That is not a problem.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

MR. NOEL: Having resources directly available for such purposes was one

of the real weaknesses in the department, because we deal with a lot of consumer

issues and some high profile issues particularly in relation to the automobile

insurance reform and that sort of thing, and we found that we did not have the

financial commitment in order to try and make sure that people properly

understood the issues. It is very costly to make sure that the information we

feel people need to have is available pretty broadly. During that insurance

reform debate last fall the insurance industry and the trial lawyers

association, and other interested parties, spent hundreds of thousands of

dollars in promoting their views of the issue.

We did manage to come up with the extra $20,000 for those kinds of purposes

last year and we budgeted $100,000 for those purposes this year because if we do

get into substantial automobile insurance reform and if we bring in cell phone

legislation and this impaired driving legislation, we have to make sure that

people properly understand what is being proposed. So, we have additional

resources for that this year. It will not be enough, but it will enable us to do

a better job than we have done in the past.

MR. J. BYRNE: Another issue, with respect to the Treasury Board, this

year in their budget - well before the Budget, I suppose - they introduced a

reduction in salaries across all departments. How has that impacted upon your

department?

MR. NOEL: We made the required reductions of 5 per cent in salaries and 8

per cent in operations - was it?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. NOEL: That has been implemented for this year in our department.

MR. J. BYRNE: Did people go out the door or is it through attrition, or

what is it?

MR. NOEL: Nobody went out the door. No, it is through attrition and

trying to get people to double up on their activities and not filling a few

vacancies that were in the system.

MR. J. BYRNE: Let's move on to a few more. With respect to Crown land,

a few years ago the department decided to put a lot of pressure on people to buy

out their leases and convert them to grants. What is the status on that now,

with respect to the number of leases that are still in the system versus the

number of grants that have been issued?

MR. NOEL: Mr. Parrott maybe can address that.

MR. PARROTT: There has been approximately 8,500 grants issued since 1996.

MR. J. BYRNE: Eighty-five hundred since 1996?

MR. PARROTT: Yes, and the process now, on titles for Crown land, is

basically a five-year payoff. Leases are in effect for five years and rental is

20 per cent of market value. At the end of five years, if development has gone

ahead, then a grant is issued.

MR. J. BYRNE: Have the revenues with respect to the department of Crown

Lands with this new policy in place - is the department now coming or - what is

the right way of putting it, I suppose - developing into a situation where they

are self-sufficient with revenues versus expenses, type of thing; the Crown

lands division?

MS WAKEHAM: There is always a lag in the amount of money that is

available through collection of fees. We have some outstanding fees that are

left but, by and large, the revenue that is generated by Crown lands is greater

than the revenue required in order to be able to carry out the functions of that

particular branch.

MR. J. BYRNE: Could you run that by me again?

MS WAKEHAM: We make more money than we are actually spending to collect

it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS WAKEHAM: So in order to do our job, we are making more money from

Crown lands than we actually spend to other departments.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the whole division though, I mean, you have

Crown lands, you have the administration of lands -

MS WAKEHAM: Surveys and mapping.

MR. J. BYRNE: You have the mapping, geodetic mapping. You have the - what

do you call it?

MS WAKEHAM: Crown land. We have land management, Crown lands, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, you are saying that whole

section now is taking in more

money. I am thinking about the salaries and all these things to run the whole

show. They are actually taking in more money now in revenues than it is costing

to operate?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that right? That is interesting.

MR. NOEL: We are generally a great revenue generator for government.

MR. J. BYRNE: I did not realize that government was in the business of

being a generator of revenues to that extent. People are paying their taxes and

they have to get some service for their taxes. They should not have to pay for

everything. I remember going in now to a government office and you want a copy

of something, you pay fifty cents or a dollar for it. I mean we are paying taxes

for certain services, in my mind.

Anyway, with respect to the - and I asked you this question before, a few

years ago. Maybe when you were deputy minister. You were Deputy Minister of

Crown Lands before, I think, a few years ago.

MS WAKEHAM: In 1996 and 1997.

MR. J. BYRNE: Crown Lands Registry and the Registry of Deeds, has there

been any discussion or talks about combining both registries and have all lands

in the one office, type of thing, or all dealings with lands in the one office?

I know you had the Registry of Deeds and companies, and what have you,

downstairs but the Crown Lands Registry itself - combine them all? Combine both?

MS WAKEHAM: Well, I guess that discussion has been ongoing for at least

ten or fifteen years.

MR. J. BYRNE: Where are we now with it?

MS WAKEHAM: Well, I think one of the biggest problems is because we do

not have mandatory registration, and without mandatory registration it would not

make any - you could combine the two registries but you still would not have the

data because it is not mandatory at this point in time. So, you would miss whole

blocks of people who had not registered. What we are trying to do is make sure

that our data - and we are transferring all of the Crown lands data now into

computer systems. So there has been much easier access. The next link would be

to access the same data, computer-wise, over in Crown registries so that at some

point or other we can have that linkage, but we are not there today. We are

still dealing with it but we are not there today.

MR. J. BYRNE: It does not preclude the fact that there could be a

phase-in of that type of thing. You are saying that there have been no decisions

made, but I am just wondering if there have been discussions with respect to

combining both the Registry of Deeds and the Crown Lands Registry, a year or

two, or five years down the road? Do you have a plan in place that somewhere

down the road they would come together? I know there is a problem with respect

to - compulsory. There is no mandatory registration of deeds but is there a

point in time where that could actually come into play, where there would be, at

a certain point in time, to require people to do that?

MS WAKEHAM: There has not been a discussion, that I am aware of, where

government is prepared at this point in time to make mandatory registration.

There were two or three studies that were undertaken. I guess one was done in

the late 1980s and probably early 1990s. We had a number of people look at what

the cost would be to try and combine both registries. It was a fairly

significant cost that would take probably over ten years in order to be able to

do it. A decision was not taken to go in that direction.

With the new technology that we have right now - and I am saying because

these studies were done previously, back in the 1980s - and with the digitizing

of the maps and with the information that we have, we are probably going to be

in a position without going through that process of being able to make enough

information available where people can do the cross-check that they need. It is

not something that is an active project at this point in time.

MR. J. BYRNE: Something completely new now; cameras. I heard a story the

other day with respect to traffic lights. On the mainland, I believe, they have

cameras on traffic lights for people who go through amber lights or red lights,

type of thing, and then they are ticketed. The other day, somewhere in the City

of St. John's, a lady went through an amber light, she was seen on camera and

the police, from wherever, contacted the street patrol, found the lady and gave

her a ticket. Is there anywhere in the City of St. John's, or anywhere, that

this is being considered, that cameras be put on traffic lights for that

purpose?

MR. NOEL: Did you say that happened here?

MR. J. BYRNE: It happened here in the city.

MR. NOEL: There is no provision for that, that I know of, in the Province

anywhere now. The City of St. John's had requested permission to be able to do

that, but in order to do it they want to have an increase in fines so that they

would get enough revenues themselves to finance the cost of the camera system.

It is calculated that would require fines in the area of $125 per ticket. If we

were to permit that, it would mean that those fines would apply throughout the

Province. You have to have uniform fines for everybody, and every municipality

in the Province. I do not know how acceptable that would be to other

municipalities. In addition to that, it would also have to apply to fines for

going through stop signs, not just red lights, because they are both treated the

same for legal purposes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Do I understand you to say that the city has applied for

permission to do this?

MR. NOEL: Several years ago, the city asked the Province to bring in

legislation to enable them to do this. Nothing has happened on it, primarily

because of that complication. As a matter of fact, we are in the process of

having a look at it again now. I am not sure where that is going to lead, but I

think that would be a difficult thing, to get parts of the Province who do not

want to have that kind of technology to accept, to see their fines increase from

- what are they now, $50?

WITNESS: Forty-five dollars.

MR. NOEL: Forty-five dollars or something now, to the area of $125.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, the city could not -

MR. NOEL: The city could not do it on its own. It can only -

MR. J. BYRNE: - have, at this point in time, a test light or camera in

any traffic light or stop sign within the city?

MR. NOEL: No. I do not know what they - I suppose they would be free to

go up and set up a camera and do what they want with the results that the camera

would produce, but they would not be able, for instance, to charge people higher

penalties, as people who got convicted. They could not be convicted on the basis

of the camera evidence, I would not think.

MR. J. BYRNE: This person was ticketed.

MR. NOEL: Pardon?

MR. J. BYRNE: This person, I was told, was ticketed.

MR. NOEL: Maybe somebody witnessed them; maybe it was not just based on

the camera evidence. My understanding would be that such camera evidence would

not be acceptable in our courts under present legislation.

WITNESS: The cheque is in the mail.

MR. J. BYRNE: The ticket is in the mail.

MR. NOEL: It is not a result of anything that we have approved.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On to the next one. With respect to truck spillage, you addressed this, I

think, in your introduction. Again, I have some notes. Earlier this spring you

had a number of calls on this, and the department was going to enforce it and

they extended it to July 1, was it?

MR. NOEL: Yes, July 1.

MR. J. BYRNE: July 1. Some of the problems that were told to me by the

trucking industry were with the containers themselves. It is almost impossible

to seal them, and the cost involved to do this, to put liners in the trucks....

Then there is another problem with respect to the type of product that you would

be hauling with respect to water in the trucks and what have you. They were

saying to me at the time: Listen, they brought in these regulations, they are

going to enforce them, and basically they did not put in - they did not get the

time to do it - the criteria that was put in place with respect to metal liners,

fiber glass liners, in the trucks themselves, that type of thing, and that in

itself brought in problems, the cost involved. If they put in metal liners, they

came back and said, fiberglass liners down the road are okay, or vice versa,

that type of thing. I was hearing all kinds of stories. Do you think now that

July 1 is going to give people sufficient time to address all those concerns?

MR. NOEL: We had several meetings with representatives of both the

trucking and fishing industries and they raised your concerns as their concerns

as well. Now they have agreed that this can be done and it can be done

economically or within their cost parameters, and they have agreed to see it

implemented as of July 1. As of July 1, it will be a condition of licence of the

fish exporting companies that they use such trucks.

Now the industry - the trucking industry in particular - indicated that they

would like to see the department tell them just how they should outfit their

truck. Of course, the department is taking a position that it is not our

responsibility. We say what the regulations will be and we leave it to private

industry to determine the best way to deal with it. We are in the process of

developing some regulations for what would be considered compliant trucks. What

we are saying is, this is the standard by which your truck will be required to

operate. We are not saying to them that you have to get there in any particular

way. We are going to talk about some different options, I suppose, for doing it.

Maybe Bill MacKenzie will speak a little more on that.

I have been speaking with a few of the people in the industry recently and I

understand that they feel it is going very well. This is a problem that the

Province has been working on for several years, and we have not had much success

with it. Our objective is to be zero tolerant of trucks that do not endeavour to

eliminate spillage. Periodically, even trucks that are properly equipped will

have some spills, and we do not intend to give them an unusually hard time as

long as it is a result of something not operating properly and not as a result

of an operator just not trying to fit out his truck in order to accomplish their

objectives.

I do not know if Bill would have anything to say about the particular ideas

we have for complying.

MR. MACKENZIE: We are still working on drafts, but these would be

amendments to the Load Security Regulations which are under the Highway Traffic

Act. They would only speak to the result of a compliant truck. They would not

address the technical solution. So, whether it is drip pans, different

containers, false bottoms to containers, what have you, we would not get into

that so much as long as - the truck would be compliant if it was not actually

dripping on the highway. The technical means, we leave to the truckers and the

fish processors to decide.

MR. J. BYRNE: I do not think the truckers were opposed to it, as such; it

was just the time frames. One of the points they did make was: if, say, the

inspectors hauled a truck in at Foxtrap, to stop there, at the weigh scales or

whatever, and they parked it or they told them to bring it down to wherever they

park it, for every day it was there they would be ticketed, day after day after

day. That is what they were told.

MR. NOEL: That is the regulation, isn't it?

MR. MACKENZIE: Could you just repeat it, Mr. Byrne? It wasn't clear.

MR. J. BYRNE: Apparently, the truckers were told that if they were hauled

in - when it was going to be zero tolerance - they were told to park it wherever

(inaudible). That for every day they were there they would get a ticket each

day.

MR. MACKENZIE: Well, I am not sure. Of course, we haven't applied that

yet because it is not July 1 yet. So we are not quite -

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what they were told before you changed it to July

MR. MACKENZIE: It would sound odd. The big issue for the fish truckers,

as I understand it, would be the degradation of the load quality while it is

parked. The ticket is very small dollars for an offence under this act. This is

like a $100 range. The issue is losing the load. So, I suspect it would be more

of a threat of having load quality diminish that would impact the trucker, not

the ticket level.

CHAIR: I understand Mr. Byrne has some more questions but I think we

should probably take a short intermission and reconvene at 8:45 p.m.; to give

everybody a stretch.

MR. J. BYRNE: That's up to yourself.

MR. ANDERSEN: Mr. Chair, (inaudible) Mr. Byrne here is (inaudible)

documents.

CHAIR: Mr. Andersen; table it.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

Recess

CHAIR: Order, please!

Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

I want to ask a few questions on Crown lands again, and basically the

mapping. You are still putting out mapping contracts each year to the local

companies and so on, I am wondering: What is the percentage of local companies

doing the mapping versus outside the Province, or are you still doing geodetic

mapping at all?

MR. PARROTT: Geodetic mapping?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, the mapping; you know, the base mapping that we do

all the time or the 1:2500 scale, or whatever the case may be.

MR. PARROTT: Base mapping, the contracts that go out, I believe most of

the contracts recently have gone to a Halifax company. The contracts go out

through the standard process and that allows all of Atlantic Canada to do the

bids. I would have to check it, but I questioned it six or seven months ago and

we are not getting bids from local companies.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that right? There is only one anyway, I suppose, is it?

MR. PARROTT: Yes, there is only one.

MR. J. BYRNE: Cottage developments; (inaudible) was onto this to a

certain extent, but how many lots per year? What is the demand there now for

cottage development lots?

MR. PARROTT: Well, last year we issued approximately 2,000 leases and

licences -

MR. J. BYRNE: With cottages?

MR. PARROTT: No, in total; and of those I would say about 70 per cent

were cottages. So there still maintains a high demand on cottages, especially in

and around the metropolitan areas, like Gander, Grand Falls, Corner Brook, and

St. John's.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would not say there are too many around St. John's

available now though, are there?

MR. PARROTT: No, most of the area around the Avalon is restricted use,

although we have some developments that will go ahead this summer and they will

go by a public draw.

MR. J. BYRNE: On the subheads, page 37, the Minister's Office.

Subhead 1.1.01. I only have about a dozen questions here, so I won't take

too long. It depends on your answers I suppose, and the minister has a tendency

to give long answers.

MR. NOEL: Is that right? I am sorry about that.

CHAIR: I have already spoken to him about that.

MR. NOEL: We are usually criticized about not saying enough in here.

MR. J. BYRNE: Anyway, under the Minister's Office, 06., Purchased

Services, you had $8,800 and then you went to $30,000, and then back to $8,800

this year. Why would there be such an increase?

MR. NOEL: Well, that is pretty normal. The previous year, I think, the

revised spending was $23,500. That gets underestimated every year, but the

primary source of the cost were increases in promotional costs related to the

Marconi Celebrations, printing, entertainment, and business meeting costs.

MR. J. BYRNE: Earlier I asked a question with respect to the cost of

promotion and I think you said $20,000.

MR. NOEL: No, that was advertising. Promotion is like promotional items

that you use for giving to - like we had the Marconi Celebrations last year and

that sort of thing.

MR. J. BYRNE: You made a statement just a minute ago saying that this

routine is normal, or whatever the case may be. If you had $8,800 last year and

spent $30,000 and you have $8,800 this year and you spent $23,000 the year

before, then why didn't you put in a reasonable figure?

MR. NOEL: I think we need to look at how we do the budgeting in that

regard and make those changes. I guess that is the kind of practice that has

been encouraged throughout the system, but I think we should endeavour to make

as a realistic an estimate as we can. Obviously, on the basis of those two

figures, that has not been the case.

MR. J. BYRNE: Exactly.

Under Executive Support, 1.2.01, Salaries, you budgeted $642,000 and spent

$745,000, which is $103,000 more, and it is back to $635,000 this year. Why

would that be like that? Why would there be such an increase?

MR. NOEL: From the $642,000 to the $745,000?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. NOEL: Due to the reallocation of approved information technology

funding which was provided for the development and maintenance of the department's

Web site. This funding was used to maintain two temporary positions who are

involved in the implementation of the initiative. In addition to that, the

allocation of Organization Development Initiative, ODI funding. This funding

provides 50 per cent of the salary for senior policy planning and research

analysts.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that it?

MR. NOEL: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: ODI.

MR. NOEL: Organization Development Initiative.

MR. J. BYRNE: There were some questions in the House of Assembly a week

or two ago on this with respect to the department. Is there an actual amount

allocated for your department with respect to ODI?

MR. NOEL: I think the deputy can give you a better answer on that.

MS WAKEHAM: The ODI funding for 2002-2003 has not been allocated yet, so

we do not have an allocation. What happens is that we have basically unfunded or

50 per cent funded in our salary vote for our positions and ODI will cover the

rest of it. So right now we are funding these positions, the two technology

people and the other person is in our policy and planning.

ODI is a fund that is under Treasury Board. Basically what happens, normally

we get the funding around July or August after they go through the requirements

for everybody. There is a certain allocation that is made available to each of

the departments, based on their training needs; but that has not been decided so

far this year yet.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, under Treasury Board there would be a fund, an x amount

of dollars - it might $1 million, $2 million, $5 million, $10 million, I do not

know - for all government and then you have to dip into that and it is allocated

at a later date. Is that what you are saying?

MS WAKEHAM: Yes. Last year our appropriations for strategic organization

of last year - this is under Treasury Board. You will see in 3.1.08., Treasury

Board, there was $500,000 and then there was money put in for Professional

Service, Purchased Services. So, if you look on page 25, under Executive

Council, you will see it there as an appropriation. That appropriation is there

as a block and then, based on the activities of each department, an allocation

is given to each of the departments for training initiatives.

MR. J. BYRNE: The $500,000 you mentioned?

MS WAKEHAM: No, the total here, if you look on page 25 of your budget,

under Treasury Board, Executive Council, you will see the total fund is $2

million. That is what it was last year and that is what it was the year before

and the year before and the year before, but the actual allocation per

department has not been decided. You will not see it in our vote; you will only

see it in Treasury Board's.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On the next page, page 38, under 2.1.01., Trade Practices and Licensing, 06.,

Purchased Services, you had $7,600, you spent $12,600, and this year you have

$111,000. Why such an increase? What are these Purchased Services?

MR. NOEL: Due to additional advertising required due to consumer issues

and an increase in printing costs. Remember when you were asking me about

advertising before, and I said we set aside an extra $100,000 this year? This is

why the figure has gone up to $111,000 for this year's estimate.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Under 2.1.03., on the same page, Residential Tenancies, 01., Salaries, you

budgeted $389,800 last year and you spent $443,100. Why would that be?

MR. NOEL: Salary increases resulted from the filling of an unfunded

position and the reclassification of seven positions retroactive to December,

1999, to A seven position.

MR. J. BYRNE: What is that, A seven position?

MS WAKEHAM: There were seven positions that went through a

reclassification process, and the department is required to pick up the cost

when those reclassifications are done. That is what the increase is.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 39, Commercial Registrations, 2.1.05., under Purchased Services

again, you have $1,185,000, you spent $1,009,000, and you have $500,000 this

year. What were the services and why the 50 per cent decrease?

MR. NOEL: If I were to undertake that explanation, you would really be

here for a long time tonight, so I will let the Deputy answer that.

MS WAKEHAM: We entered into a contract with Unysis to put in new

property; it is called PPSA. It is Personal Property Security Registry. It was

computerized. Unysis and xwave picked up the cost of the capital improvements

based on them receiving the money, the revenue for the registrations, back to

cover that capital cost. What you see here is a breakdown of the actual cost and

then coming back. There are no real monies in and out. This is basically just

for purposes of expenditure.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, to install it is $1 million and to operate it is

$500,000? Is that right?

MS WAKEHAM: No. What happened is, there was an overall cost for putting

the system in place and, as the revenue is generated, that revenue goes back

under an agreement to Unysis and xwave, and a portion of it comes back to us.

MR. NOEL: Got that?

MR. J. BYRNE: Unysis. You know, about ten to fifteen years ago, when I

was in private business, I was up to some conferences with respect to geographic

information systems and all that kind of stuff. It was that long ago that I

wanted to get into that field - Bill would know a lot about that type of stuff,

too, I would imagine - and we didn't. I couldn't talk my buddies into it.

Anyway, so be it.

MR. NOEL: That was the previous Administration, was it, that was

responsible for...?

MR. J. BYRNE: No, no. It had nothing to do with government. This was in

private industry. My own partners in business, I am talking about.

On page 40, Securities Administration, subhead 2.1.06., Salaries, you

budgeted $263,000, spent $238,000, which was less than what you had budgeted,

but this year you want $371,200 when you have a hiring freeze on. Explain that.

MR. NOEL: We were providing $100,000 for the hiring of the new positions,

the education co-ordinator and the financial examiner.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought there was going to be a hiring freeze.

MR. NOEL: No, we never said there was a hiring freeze.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that right?

MR. NOEL: We said, when this first came up last fall, that the Finance

Minister asked all the departments to look at all openings to make sure that any

new hires were essential, but there is no suggestion that we will not hire new

positions that are approved in the budgetary process. That is what has happened

in these two cases.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good. Thank you.

Under Administration, subhead 3.1.01., Salaries, 01., you had $766,000,

budgeted $852,000, spent an extra $86,000. Why would that be?

MR. NOEL: Salary costs increased due to summer students not being funded,

severance pay to the former Registrar, and the Deputy Registrar position not

being fully funded.

MR. J. BYRNE: Why wouldn't it have been fully funded?

MR. NOEL: Because, in the case of the Deputy Registrar, a new person was

moved into that position. That was an unanticipated move, and that person was at

a higher salary level than was budgeted for the position.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Page 42, License and Registration Processing, again, under Salaries, there is

an extra $200,000; $190,000 or so.

MR. NOEL: Yes, that was due to unfunded overtime, unfunded summer

students and unfunded positions. Unfunded situations only occur if sufficient

flexibility exists within the overall divisional budget. So the financing, the

source of the funds, came from within the division. It was not a new expenditure

for the division, or an increased expenditure for the division.

MR. J. BYRNE: Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

MR. NOEL: Yes, that sometimes makes good sense.

MR. J. BYRNE: When you mentioned unfunded students and unfunded someone

else, why would you not budget for that?

MR. NOEL: I guess it was anticipated that they would not be needed, and

in the course of the year it was determined that they were required. Is that...?

MS WAKEHAM: First of all, summer students are not funded anyway. That is

only if you have flexibility within your budget, because you have delays in

hiring positions when you are going through the process so you have some

flexibility, so students are never funded. There is not an allocation for

students per se. It is the same way with overtime situations. You can put a

budget in, but if you get into a crisis situation and you have to have more

overtime, you have to look within your budget to be able to find it. Sometimes,

if people get sick or a person is going to be out for X period of time, there is

no money for temporary positions either; so what you do, basically, is hire

somebody for a short period of time until that person comes back.

These are unanticipated things that you cannot really put into your salary

vote.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On the same page, subhead 3.1.04., under National Safety Code, 07., Property,

Furnishing and Equipment, you budgeted $47,000, you spent $90,000, and now you

have $116,100 for this year. It is a dramatic increase. Why is that, for

Property, Furnishings and Equipment?

MR. NOEL: Last year's increase was due to the purchase of two

additional replacement vehicles that were not budgeted for.

MR. J. BYRNE: And what about this year?

MR. NOEL: This year the increase results from the signing of a new

funding agreement with the federal government. These funds will be used to

purchase three replacement vehicles. So we are going to get some help with it.

MS WAKEHAM: This is 100 per cent federally funded, the National Safety

Code we administered on behalf of the federal government. There are eighteen

highway enforcement officers. The money is being used to replace the vehicles

that they have in order to be able to carry out the safety code audits that are

required.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 43, Regional Services, 3.2.02.01., Salaries, you budgeted $4,730,000,

spent $4,600,00, and now it is up to $5,146,000, which is roughly $500,000 more.

Why would that be such an increase there?

MS WAKEHAM: The salary increase relates to the creation that we talked

about, the seven new Environmental Health Officer positions for the water

testing.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 45, Crown Land, 4.1.01.01., Salaries, you budgeted $2,211,000, spent

$2,305,000; $200,000 more roughly. Why is that now?

MS WAKEHAM: That is a reclassification of positions over in Crown Lands

and we have to cover the cost of these.

MR. J. BYRNE: Deserved; I know they deserve it.

MS WAKEHAM: They deserved it, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 46, Geomatics Agreements, there is a

section there,

Salaries, Professional Services, you had nothing budgeted but you had $25,000

and $255,000. Then in Purchased Services you had $370,000 budgeted, you spent

$90,000, and then you have $370,000 budgeted this year. Can you explain the

whole thing there?

MS WAKEHAM: Again, this is federal government money that we have on the

Geomatics Agreement. The $25,000 salary cost was due to filling an unfunded

position when we needed some assistance with one of the projects that we had.

Professional Services costs, they increase depending on how much work we are

getting done with the mapping that is required in terms of the projects that we

have. That varies from year to year. There is no way that we can even anticipate

how much is going to be required. It depends on how quickly we move with each of

the projects, and we have other partners that are involved with that.

Purchased Services, they are supply costs, basically, in terms of doing the

projects themselves. What can I say? That varies, depending on how quickly we

move with each of the projects. The money is set aside in order to do things,

but how quickly you move really depends on how quickly the project moves with

its partners.

MR. J. BYRNE: That $370,000 that you had budgeted last year, in the

column there, was revised, the total of $370,000 also, but that $255,000 for

Professional Services, exactly what did you say that was?

MS WAKEHAM: Professional Services costs, they increase during the year

because these vary, depending on how many people we have to bring in in order to

do certain services on the projects. So, it is very difficult. When we put a

contract out the contract may be delayed in moving, or we may have a special

thing that we need to do in that particular year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Would that be actually, for example, for tenders called to

do the digital mapping?

MS WAKEHAM: Some digital mapping, yes, depending on what we have to

require. We have some base mapping and things that are done.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would like to thank the minister for his answers, and his

staff. I appreciate your time here tonight. I am finished.

CHAIR: The question has been called. I will ask Elizabeth to call the

heads.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.1.05 carried.

On motion, Department of Government Services and Lands, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: I guess the next thing is a motion to adjourn.

WITNESS: I don't think we did those.

CHAIR: Just one little bit of housekeeping. Sorry, folks.

The minutes of the Government Services Committee for April 29. Can I have a

motion to adopt?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Minister, thank you and your staff very much for coming by this

evening and helping us through the process.

MR. NOEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

It has been a great pleasure. I really enjoyed the evening. I thank all the

members of the Committee for being so kind to us and so understanding of the

objectives we are trying to achieve.

CHAIR: I would like to thank the Committee as well for being so

cooperative.

On motion, the Committee adjourned at 9:15 p.m.