PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDL.ANO AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 2 4th. Session 34th. G:eneral As,sembly OFFICIAL REPORT \ '. - MONDAY, FEBRUARY2!l 1970 SPEAK-ER: THE HONOURABLE GE'GRGE W. ClARKE

The House met at 3 p.m. MR. H.R.V. EARLE: I wish to rise on a point of personal privilege. My remarks are in contradiction of a statement made by the Premier the opening day of this hon. House - that was on Wednesday, February 18 - ~ON. J. R. S~~LLWOOD (Premier): Too late I think. You should have done it on opening day, it is too late to do it today. MR.

SPEA.l(ER: Referring to that - a point of privilege been raised at the ve:y earliest point in time, that it i's possl.ble to do so, it should be done. had But we have this question of points of privilege many times, and I have given explanations - I have talked about it on a number of occasions, as to what can constitute the points of privilege. If han. members - so we will not have this happening again - if they could turn to Page 96 in Beauschene, they would see that a dispute arising between two han. members, as to allegations of fact, hardly fulfills the conditions of privilege of a privileged question.

If you want to go a little further tha'- that, and go to Page 102 - The citation 113 - You will see this -Members often raise so-called questions of privilege on matters which should be dealt with as personal explanation, or correction - either in the debate, or the proceedings of the House. The question of privilege should rarely come before the House, and if it d;;.:~ ~o~c, it should b::!: dealt u!.th by ~ ~ticn t:c ~::~1 ll-"ith the r..:.ttc::-, either in reparations or to impose a penalty.

So questions of personal explanation - questions of different statements of fact which one member~ says, I believe this to be true - another one says, I do not believe it to be true, is not in my opinion, a question of privilege, and it should be raised in some other manner, rather than as privilege. Because as I said beforela question of privilege is a breaching of privilege either of the House, or of an individual. And there 'is usually a penalty imposed, and it should be done by way of motion, plus the fact that it should be raised immediatelJ "it occurs. MR. EARLE: Mr.

Speaker, as you know I am not as familiar with the rules of the House as I should be, but is it permissable for an hon. member on T7 either side of the House to make statements which are a direct defamation of the character of another person, without having it reputed? MR. SPEAKER: Well this is a hypothetical question that the han. member is asking. The Speaker is not permitted to answer that one either. But if the question arises where somebody accuses somebody else in certain conducts just ~ you described - if the actual words cited are said, well then, the J. I I ' I ., I

matter will be taken into consideration, as to whether it is a privilege or not. May we continue? I have said what I had to say about it. I thibk we should move on to the next order of business. ·.

~~~LLS: It is a matter of personzl privi1ege and it affects not only myself, but it affects three other collear,ues sittinr, on this side of the House. As your Honour is aware, 1 have ~itten to your Honour requesting space accol!1lllodation and your Honour and all other 1nembers vill remember the last session of the House of Assembly, when the question was raised on many an occasion concerinp accommodation for myself and I believe the hen. member for Labrador t~est. ~· SPEA_~~ Once again may I interxu~~ the hon. member by saying this again. I have just stated what I think is a matter of privilege of this House.

I do not think that accommodation for a nember is a matter of personal privilege. It is a matter to be dealt with by the Internal Economy Colnlllission in conjunction with the Department of Public l.forks. It is not a matter, in my opinion, of priviler-e either a breach of privilepe of the House or a breach of privilege of an individuel to bring th!.s question. If the House says it is a breach of privilege, then I will be guided accordin~ly, but I give it as my opinion that it is not a breach of priwiler-e. t!r. Speaker, if I may with resp ·ect, Sir.

I submit to your Honour that a place for all hon. members to han~ their hat, to speak to constituents, to speak to anyborly el$P , MR. SPEAKER: I have given my ruling and I have .,;aid that in my opinion this is not a breach of privilege. I can be overruled, if the members of the House wish to state so or state the questff.on to the House, but I have given vhat is my opinion of whether it is a breach of prtvileFe or not. I ssy in my opinion I do not consider it a breach of ~ivilege and I will be guided by the House if I am incorrect. MR. C. WELLS: fir.

Speaker, I vith respect chal:ilenge your rulin!!, Sir, and request the opinion of the House. _r.R. SP~~ The question before the House an~ this is not debatable is that the rulinF= of the Chair be sustained. Those in favour of the motion, ''aye." Those;against it, "nay." It is in my opinion tl':r. .• Tit the ruling of the Chair is sustained. We will have a count if you so de$ire. PRESENTI~G PETITIONS . ~ ~ WIL_!.~3~!~_!._?_5X)D (Gre!_~ay)_;_ Mr. Speake~;:::-, I beg leave to present a 4 1J

petition from the voters of Bri~hton Island. The praye .r of the petUio:n, Sir, is for a road connec:tion from Triton Island which is presently connected to the 111ainl.and of Newfoundland out to Britthton Island which is separated from Triton Island by a short channel. Mr. Speak~r. I support the prayer Clf the petitioners an.d ask that this petition be received by the llouse and referred to the departl!lent to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: We move and second it that this tJetition be re.c:eived - ·-----.- a"ld referred to the department b which it relate&. Carried. '

PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COM}~ITTEES f ~ -.:._....I - Report of the committee - the appoint of the Address and Reply is now before the House. HON. l~ROLD STARKES: Mr. Speaker I wish to table a report of snowclearing regulations, · under the Highway Traffic Act during the year 1969. NOTICE OF HOTION HON. LESLI E R. CURTIS: (PRESIDENT OF THE C OL~ C IL ) Mr. Speaker, I give ~otice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce three Bills. Entitled as follows; "A Bill,

An Act Respecting The Names of Hechanics And Others", A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Securities Act", A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Trustee Act". HON . STEPHEN A. NEARY: (}f[NtSTF.R OF hTELFARE): tlr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow introduce two Bills, one"An Act Further To Amend The Child Welfare Act, 1964", And

An Act Further to Amend The Department of Public Welfare Act, 1965". HQN. WILLIM1 J. CALLAIIA."l: (;UNISTER OF HINES, AGRICULTURE AND RESOURCES) Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow introduce three Bills; .An. Bill,"An Act Further To Amend The Forest Fires Act", "An Act Further To Amend The Dog Act", "An Act Further to Amend The Wildlife Act". RON. FRED ROHE:(~INISTER OF EDVCATION): Mr. Speaker, 1 give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce A Bill, "An Act To Consolidate And Alpend The Law Relating To Raising Of Local Taxe~ For Schools". HON. AlDEN MALONEY: (MINISTER OF FISHERIES) Hr. Speaker, I give notice that 1 will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce~A Bill,

An Act Respecting The Payment of Bounties and The Construction of Fishing Ships" • .!!Q.H. JOHN NOLAN: (HINISTER OF SUPPLY): Hr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill,"An Act To Amend The Public Priniting And Stationery Act~ RON. HAROLD STARKES: (NINISTER OF HIGID{AYS:) Hr. Speaker, I give notic:e that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill,

An Act Further To Amend The Department Of Highways Act, 1966".

, .. . ~· JO_ti~~-C_R_!?_?~IE: 1-!r.

Speaker, I bel! lea,:e that I will on tomorrow move the followin~ Resolution: l.'HEREAS there is a J2:reat deal of uncertainty as to the exact status of the project to construct a Core Chemical Plant for the manufacture of petroleum products at Co~e-by-Chance under that A~reement made as at the 23rd day of January, 1968, entered into between the }!inister of Economic Development and Newfoundland Refining Company Limited, et al as ratified by the Government-Newfoundland Refinin~ Company Limited (A~reement) Act, 1968, being Act No. 86 of the Statutes of Newfoundland, 1968, AND ~'HEREAS the Government has lent or caused to be lent to the building company involved in the project an amount not exceeding the sun of Five ~illion Dollars for purposes of interim financin~ of the project A~ID l~IEREAS it appears that the Government of Canada is not satisfied that it has received sufficient information to decide ~hether or not to expend an amount of approximately Twelve Million Dollars in the construccion of harbour and dock facilities at Come-by-Chance and has indicated that it would like to see a much greater percentage of the capital needed for the project invested by Shaheen Natural Resources Inc., MID t-'IiEREAS it is desirable that members of this Honourable lwuse of Assembly and the uublic of Newfoundland be ·fully informed of the pos!~!cn ~~ith reference to the Couic-b y -Ch.a.ru.:e i' Loject ~

BE IT RESOLVED that this !louse direct His Honour the Speaker to appoint a Select Committee of the }!embers of this House to inquire into and to report back to the Rouse with respect to the status of this Project and propress to date including a report as to the amount of moneys spent to date on the Project, details of the expenditure of the amount of Five }!illion Dollars interim financin~ for the Project advanced by the Government to the buildin~ company and expended by it on the Project, on the prop,ress to date of Newfoundland Refining Company Limited with respect to meetinp, the conditions precedent outlined in Clause 5 of the said A~reement made as of the 23rd day of January, 1968 and to report with respect to the position taken by the Government of Canada relative to the construction of harbour, dock and water supply facilities at Come-by-Chance in connection with the Project, such Select Committee to have all necessary powers to carry out it duties properly and to report back to this Honourable House durin~ the present Session • .. .

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS Hr. Speaker, I have a question that I would like to direct to the Minister of Public ~o/orks, namelv has the Minister yet been able to provide adequate accomodation for myself and the other three hon, members opposite? MR. SPEAKER: The correct time for the question is after we have finished with the ans~~rs to questions, and hefore we call the Orders of the nay. HON. J. R. SXALL!-lOOD (PRE?-ftF:R) : ~r. Speaker, question number 2, on todays Order Paper asked by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. The answer to number one is that the amount is as shot.n in the public accounts.

The answer to t~o is none. The answer to three is no, no interest. The answer to four is none. The answer to five is all the shares of the company. The answer to the second part of five is that there is no market value, the shares are not tradeable, and the anst,•er to number six, is that the figures are as shomt in the public accounts. MR. J.C.CROSBIE: How can the amount he shot,'tl in the public accounts for December 31st. 1969, in the puhlic account~ and tabled for that period? MR. SMALLWOOD: (PRE~IER): I repeat my anst~er !-ir. Speaker. question number six ••••• MR. CROSIIIE: That is not an ar.st ,•er Hr.

Speaker. MR. 51-f.ALU.'OOD (PREM!ER): The hon. gentleman will take it as an answer, he has no choice, but to take it as an answer MR. CROSBIE: It is ~ supnlementary question HR. S~!ALLWOOD (PREHIER) : He has his ansHer, the han. gentleman has his answer MR. CROSBIE: It is no answer HR. SPEAKER: Order, order, the rules are quite clear MR. CROSBIE: It is no answer MR. SMALLWOOD (P RR~ITF.R ): The hon, gentleman has hi~ answer ~._SPEAKE.!!_:_ The rule is quite c l ear, the member can ask a sup?lementary rtuestion, but he ca!tnot df!mand that An l'!.nsver "e so;iven.

KR:o'SMALLPOOI'l (P'~E'-'IEP.): Thf! point 1.!! ~rr. !:oeaker, that an an!;ver was given, I have ans•.•ered the que . .::tlvn fully. The information is contained in the public accounts. It is contained, not was, it is contained in the public accounts, it is as it was pub]i~hed. There is no chan~e, it i!! as published. ~ t MR. CROSBTE: ~~uch fuller eh? ------- MR. 51-fALUIOOD (PRE~Ilt~): lt is not a hit fuller, it is as so;iven in the

,. 'Public accounts. That is ~thll.t I ~aid, and that ts what I reuell.t and T have not amPlified that. '-IR. CROSJHE: The am, .. Pr i.!'! no~~ that tt ~·as do•m i.n the public accounts las vear. 11R. SPEAKER: There is no debate, the rule is still quite clear, there is to be no debate on ans1~ers to aue:;tions. The ans~-.oer is ~~:iven, it is accepted or if there is no ansver given then that is accentE'd, hut there is no debate on ansuers to auestions. "'R.

S'-!1\LLT-!OOD:J.P!EV.IF.R): Hr. :;)'eaker, ouest1on numher si.x, asked by the hon. the Leader of the Onrosition. 1{y ans~~er is thll.t 1 recollect none, I have no recollection of anv. Ouestion number nine, aeatn from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, Ans,·•er to the first nart of it, nUI!lher one is that there is no depart!T'ent, no department in particular. '-'umber t\-.'O, there are no votes for salaries or other exPe:~ses unle-ss thev he the vote:; of the 'vocational - the College of Technology, and the ans1.•er to number three is the same and the situation Mr.

S~eaker is si~plv this that a small room on the ground floor, on the main floor of this buildin~ is used as a private dintn~~: room by the Premier of t~,is Province. And such colleagues of his RS he invites to dine 1dth him, and such citizens havin .~ business uith the Government as he invites to dine Pith h:!.m, to lunch vith him rather in that dininJ!: room. The Premier and anv minister" vho lunch there p.;y the full cost out of their pocket. That is nnt paid for ry the Government.

Anvone invited to tal!'.: public business by the Pre~ier the C'-.overnment pays for, .and anyone t>ho is invited there to discuss politics, the Liberal J'larty pays for, but the Government nays onlv for citizens ~-,ho are invited to lunch trlth me when I .:tm too busy durin~ the day to meet them in the forenoon or the afternoon. It is not convenient for them to come to my home at night, I invite them to lunch and I usually have in the course of a tJcelc, in the five days I usually have two or three or four peonle who visit me and lunch tJith me. The Government pays for them if it is on puhlic business. R6N.

A.NTitONY .T. 'KURPHY ( LEADER OF THE OP?OS1T10 ~ ): ~ay I ask a question on that one, the Premier has intimated that there are people that attend the private dinin~~: room in Confederation Building to discuss nolitics as such. MR. SMALLWOOD: (PRE~IER): Yes, quite extraordinarv, most amazing MR. MURPHY: Yes, I \.l'onder hm• much it is lvorth ••••• MR. S!-IALLHOOD: (PrPMier): People also come into my office to talk politics. They come to this Chamber to talk rolitics, thev talk politics to me in the

•· Si r Robert Bond auditorium,and in t~e ~ain lobby , and on the fro nt steps, and on t he street, and in m;v home, and in t he car, and whereve r I go people have the extraordinary h3hit of t al king politics . HR. HICKEY: That is understandable MR. SMALUIOOD (Pre r.tier): But not in ,, I. r ~ r ·. • ; ·-

PRElUER SlLUL~·JOCD: BJ.t not in the Lead or of the Ci:>position 1 s office I a."!l sure, no one ever talks about it. Qeestion r:o. 13 ae;ain the hen. the Leader of the Opposition, &nSW!Ir to the first

part is yes. Tho anSl.rer to tho second

part is the hen. member for Trinity South, the answer to the third

part is $!5500 a year, the answer to the fourth

part I an afraid I cannot e;ive I do not understand the question. I just do not unierstand the question. I have trioo to understand it and I cannot do it. I do notknow what this means, Is this position consider~ a full or part-time job apart from the appointee 1 s nornal duties as a i:Cnber of the Houso of Assembly? 1-.hat that means I do not kno~r, so I cannot answer it. I do not lmo-.r, if, I !lr.l amicus to &nS\-mr it. In case this is l·rhat the hon. gontle!'lan is trying t!) find out it is not a :1'u11-til!le twelve month job.

It is a job t.'I-J.at is carried out primarily 'While the House of Assembly is oponod during the session of t.~e House. It is not a full-time job thn:tghout the year. It is not an mcecutive job, it is a parliamentary job, in other words, it exists while Parl~~ent is in session. Question :1-!o. 17, the hon member for St. John 1 s East &tern, t..'1e a.n5WIIr to no. 1 is, that the brl.lding is provided for a noninal rental one dollar a year something of that nature, on t.'I-J.e care and maintenance basis, the tenant IT!Ust of course maintain the building in good condition. The answer to the second

part is none. No financial assistance. !' Question No. 19 the hen member for St. John 1 s East .EXtern, the answer to the first

part is l!o, an answer to

part 2 therefore does not arise. The answer to No ) is I do not know, I :forgot to check that, $7200 a year. The answer to no. 4 is Yes, the answer to no. 5 is the Liberal Associati.cn of l~Ji'cundlarxl. 'Which he served loyally and faithfully. I may say very loyally, very cOI:Ipetently. The ansver to No. 6 is No. The answer to no. 7 is $150.01,. approximately $1500.

The anSW!Ir to no 8 is Department of l·lines, Agriculture and ReSQST!lrces, Department of Public lvorks, Department of Highways, I:epartmont of Real th, J:epar1!.ment of Economic Development, Department of J-!unicipal Affairs, and there tnay be oms or two other departments frOIII time to time. The answer to no. 9 is lJo. MR. ~IGI<EY: The position was not advertised. I do. mot know wy. Would it be cust=nary to advertise for such a position? To fill such a position. f'ffiliTER SHALL;·lCOD: It is not customary because thEm'e never was such a position as that before.

That :is not the only reason, it t-ras nOJtt advertised. Qnestinn Ilo. 21, the hon. l!IElr.lber for St. Jlchn 1 s East Ertern, the answer to the first part :is l!o. l

February 23, 1970 Tape 15 ce-1 HON. J. R. SHALLI~OOD: The answer to the first

part is, "No". The answer to the second

part is that it docs not arise. The answer the third

part is that it is not presently known. The ans~1er the fourth

part is that it does not arise, and the ans\Jer to the fifth

part is, "No". Question No. 24, the hon. member for St. John's East Extern. The answer to the first part of the question is that -the answer is, "No". The fuller ansver is that the insurance is put on and carried by the operator of the hotels vith the benefits payable to the Government. I do not know the answer to No. 2 because the Government did not put this insurance in effect. Question No. 29, the hon. member for Gander. The answer to the first

part is, "Yes". The answer to the second

part is as follows: Chairman, Mr. Clarence Powell; members, Hr. F. Ross Young, Hr. IHlfred Reid, and ~!r. Clifford Russell. What did. I say~· SOHE HOU. MDffiER: Hallace Reid. MR.· SMALLWOOD (PREMIER) : \·!all ace, ~·fr. tv all ace Reid, the Deputy Chairman of the PotJer Commission. Hr. F. Ross Young is the member of the Fisheries Development Authority. Mr. Clifford Russell is Chairman, I think, of the Fisheries Loan Board. The ansver to ilo. 3 is that there is no advisory board, and the ansuer to No. 4 is, "No". Question No. 33, the hon. member for Gander. The answer to the first

part is, "None", and as to the second part, I do not understand the question. I quite stncerely do not undcrst.:md the question, "h'hat agreements have been made?" If it 1Jent on to say by whom - made by this, that, or the other - or what agreements have hcen made with the original owners and I or operators, table such agreements. If the hon. gentlemen will table ano~ber quesCion, to give notice of another question, I will endeavour to get the ans1-1er for him, but I frankly do not understand the 'luesti("ln as it appaars. Question ~o. 37, frorn the hon. the member for Gander. The answer to the first

part is that llotel Buildings Limited is a Crown co-:operation. It is a non-commercial body. It pays no taxes and is not expected to pay taxes: for which reason depreciation would be menningless. The second question is ~ .-11 .->l1:

February 23, 1970 Tape 15 GC-2 purely hypothetical and in any case, I do not know ~he aaswe7:, if it vere not hypothetical. If it did concern us, I vould have to go and g.et an ~r, but as it is a purely hypothet;i.cal question. I have not bothe .red to get the anst~er, It does not count. It does not matter anyway. Question No. 41, the hon. the member for Humber East. The answer to the firllt part of one is, ''Yes". The amount is J5i962. sq. ft •• 25,962 sq. ft. The period is five years. The rent is $5.49 sq. ft. each year, vhich is a monthly rental of $11,899.00 - !11,899 • . The answer to the second

part is the space was 16,380 sq. ft, No rent is paid because it is a building owned by the Government of the Province, but lamentably, too small. They have to move out of it. Question No. 43, the hon. the meTI!ber for St • .John's West. The ans'Wer to fbe first

part is, "Yes". The ansver to the second

part is that this is privileged information,· that it has never been the practise I doubt that it ever will be the practise in any Government - to say vhat documents are or are not circulated in Cabinet • . ~

Question no. 44 AnSYer to part three is No. 'lhe answr to the fourth

part is that the matter does not arise. 'lhe answer to 'Part five is No. Question no. 45, February 2Jrd., 1970 asked by th~ hon menber for St. John's West. Answer is No. MR. JOHN C. CROSBIE: Does the no apply to boti1 parts of the question? There have been no amendments and no agreeroant to make amend!llsnt.s. PRDIIER SitALU<JOOD: That is right. Question no 46, February 2Jrd., 1970, asked by tba hon momber for St. John's . West. lb. AnSTJer

(1) Answer

(2) Answer

(3) Answer

(4) Yes, by courtesy tva received it. " II The sa.."'e as the answer to llo (2) in· ~estion 43: namely that this is priveleged infor.nation. It is not and nev~r has been and no doubt ever will be the practice to say W.1at docunents are or are not cir~ated to the me~rs of the Governt~~ent. Ans-wer

(5) Jtr iMpression up to the moment I car.re=o in this Olamber was that the answer would be nothing-, but I have recnived a nallba since arriving in the Clamber that suggests that the Governnent of r:ew£0llildJI;and might have made a payt1ent. I will check further on this and ~ive the infornation ~en I get it. Answer {6) ~~. P.R. JOHN C. CROSBIE: '!he answer to part (2) of the ~estion. The bon. Premier sa.J.d that tho interim report had been received, but he did not give the date when it was received. The last part of tho question m.-s!ced. On ~at date was it received? PREKrER.

SHALnlOOD: I do not recall that ani I can la.:olt it up. I can find out. Question no 50, February 2J:rd., 1970 asked "b-J the Im>n meMber for St. John's West. Answer: I have to say in reply to this \hole question that ir.Iportant negotiations, very important negotiations are presently going on w.itm reeard to all the matters or just about all the natters contained in tha four pa7rts of this question an::!. that it would be very muc.'l against the public i.l'"lterost. to ~.va this infor:t'.ation at this s~ present tilne. It may be quite in the publ:!,c interest !before thisSession is over

to give the infonnation. I do not know at the mCl!lent, but negotiations are proceeding. MR. JOHN C. CROSBIE: I suppose the Prerrl.er wants this question left over. PREHIER SHALIMOOD: No. MR. JOHN C. CROSBIE: -~at i::: the ansorer7 PREMIER S~-L\U.WOOD: I have given my answer. If the situation changes, I will certainly take steps to provide this information to the 11:-ovinc:e, to the people &Di to tlds House, to everybody involved. I have not now answered every question put to me on today 1s Order Paper, Hr.

Speaker, but it must be eighty or ninety percent of the!'!. 'Ihere are still two or three, I think for which I have not got the anst.;or. ~estion No 28 e.sked by the hon mel'lbar :for Gander. I have sotne rec:ollation or that. I have asked rny staff to look it up for me.

I have some recollection of it because recenUy I was asked by the relevant minister of thg Governnent of Canada tor my consant that he should table in tha Eouse of Cormlons CorrespoiYience there had been between him and me and he sent photostats or carbon copies of that correspondence so I think there was some' correspondence, and as soon as I get it I w.ill table it in the House. I do not know if thre is any other question put to me that I have not answered today. Question no 18, February 2Jrd., 15'70, asked by the hen. member :for St. John's East (Ertern) • .Answer (1 ) No. Answer (2) l!o.

,. MR. SMALLWOOD (Premier): Question (14) ought I think really to be addressed to the Minister of Finance. Question No. (14). But if the hon. gentleman insists. I will be glad to get the information, but really I think it ought to be addressed to the bon. the Minister of Finance. Now there are several questions, and I ought really to point out that - I could answer them all by a simple answer "no". asked by the bon, theLeader of the Opposition. received so and so- I could answer. "none". For example - No. (3) - ~~at dividends had been Then Question no.

(5) I could answer with one word, "none". There are other questions here along the saae line - Question ~o.'(25) - I could answer that question with one word - "none". There are several of those questions -and I could answer none, because of the word that is entered I think, mistakenly in all those questions - and that is the word "dividend". But if the hon. gentlemen had asked what payments had been made to the G overnment, it would make an intelligible and even an intelligent question.

And so I am going to answer the question, assuming that what the bon. gentlemen who asked the questions meant, was not dividend, but payment. What payments have the G overnment received? I will be glad to table those questions as soon as I receive them - table those answers. RON. LESLIE R. CURTIS (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, Question No. (53) is addressed to me by the hon. member for Bonavista North - as the hon. member knows, this question should be addressed to the hon. Hinister of Finance. MR. JOHN C. CROSBIE: Is not the }linister of Justice responsible for the Constabulary?

Does not the Department of Justice have information showing RON. ERIC N. DAWE (Minister of ~!unicipal Affairs): Mr. Speaker, in answer to Question No. (54) on today's Order Paper, asked by the bon. member for Bonavista North.

Part 1 of the question - Harbour Gzace - nil. Gander - twenty. Bishop's Falls - nil. Windsor - nil. Grand Falls - nil.

Part 2 of the question - Gander - twelve - eight to be completed in a day or two.

Part 3 of the question - This part of the question is not clear to me, as I would have no indication what Units would be available in the whole town of Clarenville.

Part 4 - This question again is not clear to me, as I would have no •'

\ '. indication as to the number of Units available in all of the town of Marystown. No. S - Again this question is not clear to me, as I would have no indication of the number of Units available in the Town of Harbour Grace. But I would like to say Mr. Speaker, if the han. member would like to redirect his question, and refer to houses under the control of the be Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, I would glad to supply the answers. HON. JAMES R. CHALKER (Minister of Public Works): Answer to Question No. (23) on the Order Paper of February 23rd . asked by the han. member of St. John's East Extern. (

a) Land exchange between Bowater - the Federal Government, and theProvincial Government. (b) $2,491,920 (c) $140,000. Part two - 83,980 square feet. Part three - 61,440 square feet. Part four - None. Part five - Approximately eighty-four. Part six $130,000. Part seven - None. Part eight - We have been assessed by the City of Corner Brook for $7,834,000 but the Government does not pay taxes to any municipalities where we have any \>uildings. Part nine - The Premier and the executive council, Finance, Health, Ju&tice, Mines, Agriculture and Resources, Welfare, Public Works - and of course the large library contained in the same building. In answer to

(39) Mr. Speaker, asked by my hon. friend from Humber East Part one - November, 1968 - Part two - no date set as yet.

Part 3 $1, 376,578 • I will give you the answer to No. (39) now Mr. Speaker. It is actually the addition of two and three to the reply already made in Question

(23) As a matter of fact, the total of $2,631,920.

HON, J.R.CllALKER (Minister of Puhlic ~~arks): I am repeatin~ the ans~ers to question fourty asked by the hon, member from Humber East. November 196? -

(2) No date set. (3) $1.376.578.00 that is our estimated cost, HON. W.J.CALLAHAN ('!inister of M:lnes, A~ricul tUI'e and Resource!':): :l;m. Speaker, the answer_-to question number eleven asked by the hon. member for St. John's· centre. The answer to the first

part is "no", the answer to the second

part is The Government expressed it's preference that tabling of documents be deferred ti<'l until the comnletion of ne~ofions in resnect of matters that are now under neg~tiations. As to numher nineteen, the hon. the memher for St. John's East 'F..xtern 'l<'hich was ans•·~ered - which t~as a5ked to the hon. the Premier and to me - was ans"1ered in part by the hon. the J>remi er. .Nu!'lber seven, the information given the hon. the Premier I can make more precise Mr. Sneaker, in thilt the number of applications processed in 1968, is 1,257, and in 1969, 1,286.

The additional departments and a~encies to ~hich applications mav be referred include the various municipalities, to~m councils, city councils, coi!U'1unity councils, local :Improvements, the t~ild life division of forest service, the division of At;!:riculture, the provincial nark service, the Net-rfoundland and Labrador Pm~er Col'l!lission, the Denartment of Hil!;ht~ays, the l'ater authority, the Department of r~mmunity and Social Development, Fisheries, the Department of Public Works of Canada, and the reason for such reference is to enable these departments and a~encies to comment upon the advi!':nbiltty of the p,rantin~ of t application in the li~ht of their particular statutory and other responsibilities. ~estion number thirty-two, asked by the hon. the memher for Gander. which is in fourteen parts.

In an~"'!r to the first nart 377. The "econd part the answer is none. The third !"art the anst-1er is the 22nd. of July 1969. The fourth part the ans,..Ter is twenty - first Au~ust 1969. The fifth part the Mines Branch Laboratory and Mines Branc~ personnel. The sixth part the answer is,all. The seventh nart, approximately twenty per week or a~proximately four per day. The eight part, in order to determine the silica and alumina content. ~he ninth part. the final report is nearin~ completion. The tenth part, (

a) the anSYer is eleven. The tenth part (

b) the anst·7er is four. The eleyenth part, approximately $65,000. The twelfth part, is unknown. The thirtee~th part, is unknown, and the answer to the fourteenth nart is - the CroTKn, ~e~tion number fourty-t" .'O• asked by the han. the member for St. Barhe South, which is in four parts - the first part the ans1Jer is "no", the second part the ansl.•er is - still under ne~otiation. The third nart, the answer is that the bon. aembers question refers to proposed boundaries, and in view of that it might

.· not be wise at this time to sneculate. ~nd the fourth part the answer is actual unkown, estimates ran~e up to $3 ~illion HON. F.W.ROWE (~inister of Education): ~r. Sneaker, the question number seven on todays Order Paper asked by the hon. the I.eader of the Opposition. These questions, one question in five parts actually relate to the internal administration of the university, and it lrould not be proper for me to answer those questions even if I had the information.

I can only su~gest that my bon. friend is anxious to acquire this information, then he should direct his questions to the administration at the universitv. Perhaps ~r.

S?eaker, ~bile I am on that may I say that in order to avoid the future misunderstanding I have no desire of course at all to hold back any information that trould be proper for me to ~ive relatin~ to the university or to any other aspect of education, but I will not answer any questions here in this House, even if I have the information relatin~ to the administration of the university, for the very simple reason that it would not be proper for me to do so.

There are some aspect of our connections with the university that it t.>'ould he proper for me to answer, and I would be very happy to do so, but for example student aid which is administered by the Department of Cducation, teacher indentures-at the university, and the Canada Student Loan Fund, all of which arc administered by the Denartment of Education. I would be glad to answer any questions relating to those aspect of it, as for the other - this House makes block votes to the university and we do not reouire the u~iversity to give an item hv item account of the exnenditure.

That ls why we have an administration, and a hoard of regents, and a senate. I t.rould thereforP. not he able to ans~>•er anv detailed questions relatin~ to either eternal expenditure or other a~Dects of university administration. H_!!N. S,J.NF.A!_Y_(~inis_ter of Helfare): '.fr. SneakP.r, I "'ant to table the anst -rer to question number t~renty-seven asked hv the hon. member for St. John's East Extern, and also table the ans~er to ~uestion numher fift~-one, asked by the bon. member for llonavista ~lorth. !!_O!_ • ...l:.:.N.JONF.S (~l{nister of Finance): J.fr.

Sopaker, the an59er to the question number fifteen asked hv thP. Hon. the Leader of the Opposition \o.'hich is in five l' pa:z:ts. I have to renlv that the information rermesterl in _ this question t,•ill G,1 be provided in the Bud~et. Ouestion nu~ber tt>enty-six asked by the hon. the member for St. John'~ F.ast F.xtern, the ans,ler to the fi r~t f'llrt of the question ·· is not available for the simple reason that •1e do not char~e out hills for collection to each nartico.lar job. Tlle ans~rer to the second part, •~hat

,._. ·I· ·, I enforcement and checl~ measure'l are taken in collections? In all of our collections ~lr. Sneaker, 1-1c arc l!OVP.rnecl bv t~c nrovisions of th"' various I! Acts ~overnin!! tl-te Department of Fin'-lnce. ThP. an'l•-•cr to question num'hoer I I fourty-four asked by the hon. the · m~rn!->cr for St •• lnlm',:; ~'e<>t • here apatn as i.n s.ns"l-rer to a previouo; rptc'ltion "r. Sf.'cakPr. the information t,•i 11 _h~ Provided . ' in the budget. The am;Per to rJu~stion nu!'lber fortv-nine hv the hon •• , ••••• ' MR.

CROSll!F.: no I tmderstilnd froM tl-te bon. the M{nister' s a~SI-~er. that any questi(lns t-!e ask on thP ffnancb l m:~t tP.rs and detail!", the oneration of the . ', l ~overnment vou 1\re r:oin)!: to ansucr ,..ill be !'rovi.<lF'ci in the hndget? Is th<tt what you are sayinr.? "(R, JONES: ~lo '(r, Sl'eal-:Pr, I <~m 1u<>t 111akin~ an an<>•-~Pr to one particular question. 'ffi. CROSt:If.: no I uncierstand the hC'n. minister ther. is r:o:!:n~~: to, underta1<:e in the budP,et to shm~ us, ~i.ve us all informati(ln that is a!'ked in this question?

What these bnnkroll drafts arP.. tel!lporary horroPin'!s and the rest of it? ' ! MR. JONES: I have nothing further to acid '!r. Sneaker •. MR. CROSBIE: In other Pords you vill not P.{ve us thio; information MR. SPEAKER: Order T)lease! ?m. CROSBIE: 1le td 11 he watchtnP, the hud~ct ~·hen :l.t comes fo'R. SPEAKER: Are there further am;t-•ers to ouestions? !o1R. JONES: Hr. S?eaker, the anst~P.r to oue,;tion forty-nine asl<ed by the hon. the member for P.onavista North. This information is not readily available.

I understand that it is in a computer and ~-·e ~rould h<tve to program a comouter and it may take some months for us to he able to extract it in the form that the (\uestion has been asked. }The ans"er to question number fifty-five. asked by the bon.· the member for Bonavista t-:orth, ag:1in }lr. Sneaker, this information is not readily available, and it ~~11 take some considerable time for me to be able to ext rae t the ans•~er. HR. SPEAKER: Further ans"1er,c; to t'luestions !om.

CROSBIE: no I understand that thP. hon. minister is sayin!?; that he 'lorill obtain the information hut it will take some time, is that the position? MR. JONES: That is exactly the I'Osition '-lr. Sneaker. HON. E.M.ROilF.RTS (~·finister of ller.l th): ''r. S11eakcr, with reference to question number fortv -eight on todays Order l"<tl'er asked hv the hon. mer.~her for St. John's West. Had the Government had carried out a survev of pJsitions and salaries in G 0 all hospitals in the rrovinco!, and if so !s that survc:y now completed:. The survey is unden,av ~r.

S11cakc,r, it l<t CX!l~Cted th,,t tbP. completed report of the survey will be in the hands of the G.:~vernl'lCnt by :lf'~·roxlmately the middle of Hay·.·

I February 13. 1970, TaJie 18, Pa~e I 4 - a"b It ia being carried out in conjunction with the mana1tements of these hospitals so they "Will be in possession of the infoll'llltton before that as 'Will the employees. The second l'art Mr. Speaker • the survev is be.in~ carried out by -the ?ersonnel Administration Division of the Government with the help of the fersonnel Administrations Services Incorporated - a firm from - I am sorry Mr. Speaker, Public Adminilltration Services, a finn from Chicago in the United States. :1-f.r.

Speaker, I am told that it is an ·non-t)ro ·fit organization in any event rrr; colleastue the 'tfnister of Finance retained them, and it is rrry collea~e the Minister of Finance to whom the question ~st he addresse _d as to the cost. There has been no cha-rges made aP.ain~t any votes for which I am responsible. SOME HON. SPEAKER: ,, . ) ~'r. Speaker, supplementary ••••••••••• ..........

reoruary ~)rc., ·~tu ·rape tr •Y nc: -l MR. H.R.V. EARLE: question. May I Ask the Minister, if it is not correct that the salary classi~ications ~ere completed soma months aec, and uhy the further delay1 HON. EDWARD ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker,'it is not correct that I h~ve said, if the hen. gentleman ~ishes to cast • hiu mind back the ~est that has been done Sir, is to complete the surveys in respect to the public service generally, the question on the order paper, if the hen. gentleman wishes to leek at it Mr.

Speaker, is addressed to positions in all hospitals in the Province, Sir, and is the question ' to which I made the reply. HON. ANTHONY J. ~lURPHY: (LE.4DER OF THE 0PPCJSI'!'IO~): ~!r. Speaker, before you call Orders of the Dly may I at this tice, reauest and ur[e the Government to reconsider the decision that was anaounecd by t~e Honourable the Premier on Opening J:ay. PRD.UER S!J.ALLWCCD: To a point of Order. It is a little premature there is other business before the Orders of the Day.

And if the hen. gentleman will just restrain himself, he will have the opportunity to say at the right moment, ~hat he is about to say now. MR. A. )I;URPHY: Will I carry on, ~lr. Speaker? V~. SPEAKER: No, we have not gone into Orders cf the Day, yet. Ana~era to Questions is the next item on the ~rder fqper, then of course is Orders of the Day. PREIHER SMALLWOOD: Ye3, well Mr. Spe:iker, I W'IS goinE: to call motion, so we could dispose of the motions ani then re~ert to Grder~ of the Day. And before your Honour calla Orders of the Duy, the Leader of the Opposition of course can make his point.

I do not know, it is not to give, it is to deal with the motions that aro en the Order Paper. MR. CLYDE WELLS: Before, ·We do that I do h3ve a question - is it now in oRder tor me to ask? SOME HON. )..;EMBER: Inaudible. MR • C. WELLS: 1 do h~ a verb~l question now, Mr. Spe~ker. PREMIER S~::ALLWCOD: Under heading Orders cf the Day, we have the Address Reply the debate and the Address and ~eply.

It would be wronr to go forward with the .Address \ld Reply to debate on th11t address ~21 reply before we deal with the legislation, the fir::~t re'ldings, which are un:lor the heading of!.II:Otion., Now, vhat I am asking the Houso to do is to de~l with the .motion, then revert to . ~ .

' February 2)rd •• 1970 Pk- 2 Orders of the 1:11y, be!' oro yo\:r !lor.our c, lJ:: Or:ie5 of the ~y, then the bon. gentle~n oppc~ite can r1i~~ the point th~t he ~i~hea to rai~e th~t ~re proper to raise, just bofore Crdcr3 cf the Oly arc c~llcd. II.R. SPE!KER: \'{e are nell to the point '<~here we are calling Orders of th& D:ly, and at this particular point, we have !l verbal quecrtion~, explanatior.s, and what have you- noll the motion 1, 2 1 ) 1 etc. right on down through no. 15 are part of the Orders of Today, ~nd they are called in the order in 'Which the Government decided this being :!-!onday.

We can now submit this question. MR. A. MURPHY: That is the i'Oint that I "Would like to 1!19ke. liR. SPEAKER: No r.otion be!'ore the Chuir. ~~~~. ! . l·rrJRPHY: No Hotion before the Chair. 3o, it is just a point that I 'IIOUld like to esk, ~ hrgo Government to reconsider :JUl::gestion that 'li!lS put tor'llard by the Hon. the Premier on Gpeninr, D1y, llith reference to this House ot Assecbly meetine afternoon and nit:ht. I thinks : it is absolutely unnecessary, I believe, it is going to have an adverse affect on the business in this House.

The Premier states 'ICe only 'llork three hours a day, but I believe, and! think •e must agree that we ••••• 50'1-!E HON. ~~~lEER: In'ludi ble. J.:R. l • ~·:UR!'HY: We cannot have a debate - I am ~~iug & state~ent Si~. Well, the 1\lestion is I urge, '1-!r. Speaker, and I ask the Government to reconsider the decision as outlined by the Premier to open this House afternoon and night I think it is absolutely unnecessary at this time. CRIERS OF THE 111 Y MR. C. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, before you cnll Orders of the Day, may I no'ol ask a question1 My question is directed to the Minister of Public Works and I would ask him if he 'llould advise the House 'Whether or not he has found of'fice acco~dation on the nreth or tenth floor of this building for myself and three other colleagues ~ho sit llith me in the House? HON. JAMES R. CHAULKER:(MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS:) Mr. Speaker, the hen, member kno11s quite 'llell I 11ill certainly find a pl~ce for him to hang his hat, I have proven that since last year.

My hen friend from Labrador and I feel quite sure, Sir, that 'ole 'olill find ample space for the hen. gentlemen ccnceaned. MR. C. WELLS: When Mr. Speaker? MR. J.R. CHAULKER: Shortly. PREMIER S:.!!LLWOOD: Not on the ninth and tenth floor. The question 'lias ••••• !·-- (.:~ .. ~~ !

February 23rd., 1970 MR. J.R. CHAULKER: Ohl I om sorry. MR. H.R.V. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, when Orders of the DAy are called, I understand here from Beauchesne's

Chapter 11, page 79-

Section 85. If I had the opportunity to make the correction in the Premier's re~rks on Opening Day. Yay I read the

section referred to: When the Orders of the Day are called by the Speaker, and before they are read by the Clerk Assistant, it is the practice, sanctioned, by using but not by any positive rule for members to make personal explanation or ask questions to the Government in reference to inaccurate reporting of speeches in the official record or in newspapers or in denial of certain charges ~de against them in the public press or in reference to certain re~rks which had been misuderstood on a prev.Dus occasion and 1mich they had not before had an opportunity of explainine, or in search of delays in obtaining returns, the incompleteness of certain returns brought down before the Order of the House or relative to the state of public 9ervices or other matters of public interest.

But these remarks should be brief as they are cnly tolerated there being no question before the Chair when they are ~de. !nd no discussion should be allowed, ¥hen the Minister has replied to a question. Or after a me~ber has cade his personal explanation. In asking a question a ~ember must act attack the conduct of the Government. If a. mttmbEor wish,;s to mk,; p.;rsor. .. ::. .;;xplar.a tion in re!'crenca to remarks ~ich have fallen from another member the latter ou[ht to be in his place. SOME HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. H.R.V. EARLE: Have I per~ission to make the c~rrection, V.r. Speaker? MR.

SPEAKER: ••••••••••the right ti:e to do it, as he has already stated, as he has already read from the Rules of the House. MR. H.R.V. EJRLE: · Mr. Speaker, the correction and explanation ~ich I wish to make has reference to the re~rko of the Premier as contained in his address on Opecing Day, and I quote from the unedited procttedin~s of the House, which I received today, this may not be crrect I understand, because it is not edited. But theee particular words which I take exception are these Tape 9, page ;, and the bon. gentleman nods, this sinking tub that he fouEht so desperately to stay aboard.

That he left ~ith the only sinking was his heart. His heart sank ¥hea he . left it, and he fought and scrabed and scrawbed- that lovely Newfoundland word, he scratched and scrawbed to hold on to hisjob in this sinking tub and Kr. Speaker, we will not bother - there is uncartain there which does not . appear, actually as they missed my word, I called out, nwho begged ~e to stay on" • . Jpparently that was missed. Look we cay be provajed, but I am personally ,-and . . ' •'. ·-~

, .. February 2}:rd., 1970 Tape # 19 Page 4 - pk I am the one most likely to be provoked, but I am the one that you cannot provoke. PREMIER SI-IA LL liOO D: What the hen. gentleman quite clearly ~ants to do is now •.k-: have a debate. He will have ample opportunity in the debate in the Address ,;6d Reply - ample opportunity, ample scope to co~ent on any accusations or charges of scrabbing or scraping this to hold on to hiajob. You have lots of opportunities, this is not the occasion on Orders of the Day. It is a misuse. SOME HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. PREMIER S}.!.ALLWCOD: One at a time.

It is a misuse of the priv,lege, that the ., ' rules could allow, it is a violation of priv1lege, it is not privflege, it is entering into a debate. It was not an attack on a ma~ 1 s character. It was not an accusation, it was a statem,ent msde indebate and it can be answered in debate. That is the ti~e and place to do it, not on orders of the day. MR. SPEAKER: One said, I did. And some other hon. member said I did not. It is strictly as I see it there, there is no question of privelege in reRtion to this. I did not believe there was a question of privilege.

If one hon. ~ember cakes a statement, the other syas, it is not true. It is net a question of privilege, he has made his explanation, and he says these ~ere remarks that were made by the hon the Premier were not true, and I think that the catter is closed there but, I ~ould still point out that there is opportunity in the address and reply to clear the air in relation to any statement that ~as made. Tr.ere was no breach of privilege. therefore the hon. member ~as not taking it as a braach of privilege. He is giving an explanation ~~at is all. what the hon.tho Premier said, was incorrect. MR. H.R.V. EARLE: Mr.

Speaker: I just 111ish to :repeatthat the statement is false and I 11ill take the first opportunity t.o correct it. MR. SPEAKER: But, that is the correct procedure, but not at this time. I ORDERS OF THE DAY ' ' G . ..

\'. ORDERS Of 1BI DA'f XI. SMALLWOOD(Premier): Mr. Speaker, motions to 15, Motion no. 1. the hon. Minister of Justice, to ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act Farther To Amend The Fire Prevention Act, 1954," read a ftrst time,, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. The bon. lziinister of Justice to ask leave to imul'oduce a Bill,"An Act Respecting Private Investigators And Security Guards," read a first , ordered read a second time on tomorrow. The bon. the Minister of Justice to ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Prisons Aet, 1969," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

The bon. the Minister of Public Works to ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act Further to Amdnd The Expropriation ACt, 1964," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. The hon. the Minister of Education, to ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Aet Further ~o A;end The Department of Education Act,, 1968, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. The hon. the Minister of Education, to ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Memorial University,Act, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

The bon. the Minister of Education, to ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Aet Further To Amend The Education (Teachers' Pensions) Act, 1962, read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. The bon. the Minister of Education t~ ask leave to introduce a Bill, ~An Act Further To Amend The Public Libraries Aet," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. The bon. the Minister of Education to ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Education (Teacher Training) Act, 1968, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

The bon. the Minister of Education to ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Teachers' Loan Act, 1957," read a first time, ordered read a second time on 'tomorrow. The bon. Minister of Highways, to ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act further To Amend The Highway Traffic Act, 1962," read a first time, ordered read a second time · on tomorrow. The bon. Minister of Public Welfare to ask leave to introdu~e a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Social Assistance Act, 1962," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. The bon.

Minister of Public Welfare, to ask leave to introduce a ,Bill, "An Act ----- --------- --------·- -- ---- -------

.reD • .t.l ,.,,u ·rape .~:u page ~ • Further To Amend The l-lelfare Of Children Act," read a first time, ordered read a seeond time on tomorrow. ., '{ '

February 23rd., 1970 Tape no 21 On Motion of the .Hinister of Supply to ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act To Provide For The Appointment Off A Parliamentary Commissioner To Investigate Administrative Decisions And Aces Of Officials Of The Government Of The Province And Its A~encies And To Define ·Xhe Parliamentary Commissioner's Powers, Duties And Functions" read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On Notion of the Hinister of Supply to ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Department Of Suppll:y Act, 1966-67." read a first time, ordered a second time on tomorr~- MR.

SPEAKER: Item one. Address in P~ply. -~· H. COLL_~~~- Mr. Speaker, let me with my cwlleagues on this side of the Bouse congratulate the bon. members from Trinitl7 North and St. ~~ry's for moving and seconding the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne. Sir, I would say that it came as no surpris~ to me, certainly as no surprise to the people of Newfoundland nor might I suy.geslt to the Premier that both of those han. gentlemen abide with one another and ~ent out of their way in their ~&1se of the Premier and the Government of tod~y.

Before getting into the criticis~, if you will, I would like, to ~r~!cc~e the han. members from Burin and the hon. member from Fortune Bay. I wcould like to welccme them in ' '- . our caucus on this side of the House. I think tlhe PrEEier mentioned sometime ago that they were nudging over and we were nud~ng away. Anyone who has ever spent any time in a boat by a wharf must realiz~ what nud~ing means where the boat nudges by the wharf. The wharf is not all ~hat strong and it nudges away, of course, but in this particular case, I think tthose people really nudged over, and they came all the ~ray.

For the bon. members wrho are still nudging, I hope that they, too, will get the benefit of some bea~ swell some day soon and they will find themselves nudged all the way as ~ell. Now, Sir, Speeches from the Throne are freq~ently criticized for beiny. vague statements of intention. I am sure that th•is is not always a valid criticism, because no sensible person c.an expect the Speech ifrom the Throne to give detailed information on all of the proposed legislation whlich might be brought before tbis Bowie.

HoYever, the Speech from the Throne whidh we heard last l~ednesday must certaJnly take first prize in any competition of •empty, meaningless and vague ---- -·------- -

,._. t February 23rd., 1970 Tape no. 21 Page 2 documents. Not only, Sir, has this Government run out of ideas and lost its sense of direction, but it has even run out of words and for this administration to run out of words is certainly to run out of its major asset. Certainly we do not maintain that the length of a document indicates its merit.

It is apparent, however. that the present administration is no longer able to stoke its repository of ideas and programs with its customary ve~bosity,- It is customary, Sir, for the speaker leading of for the Opposition to deal at some length with the Speech from the Throne and I might say that this puts me in a very difficult position for two reasons.

(1) I have been suffering from the flu this past three or four days and I am not over it yet and

(2) I find very little in the Speech to really get one's teeth in. What can one say about such an ambiguous doucment which certainly lacks immagination and correction. Last year, Mr. Speaker, we saw an administration which was already high on L.S.D. suddenly go on a salt and silica kick. This year in the Throne Speech we are to witness an administration to go on a shell kick. In one breath or out of one side of their mouth, they tell us that we are to become less.and less dependent on Ottawa.

Then in the next moment out of the other side of the mouth, we are told that the solution to all our problems is in DREE which is supposedly coming from Ottawa. What kind of double talk, Sir, is this? The Newfoundland people I am afraid and certainly a goodly number of members of this hon. House can only regard this Speech as another put-off. Now, Sir, I want to make it clear that in my criticism of the Speech and after all that is one of our responsibilities, in my criticism of the Speech I want to be fair. I want to be objective.and hopefully I will not exaggerate too much.

I was a little annoy·ed, ho1~ever~ on looldnp, over the first page of the document and on: reading it quickly one W~Culd almost think that the courage and the intelligence and the patriotism of the i\ewfoundlander is in question. In my opinion, Sir, neither of these qualities oust be questioned. I am sure that I speak for all hon. members of this House. v.h·en I say that our Newfoundland people possesses all of those qualities to a very high degree, and the only thing lacking is the drivin~ force of leaderShip to channel those qualities in the ·~··

t February 23rd., 1970 Tape no. 21 page 3 proper direction. What does the Government mean, when it says given courage? Does it 111ean support for the Premier's "Develop or Perish Program." When reference is made to intelligence and patriotism, does that mean that Newfoundlanders are being called upon to give blind allegiance to the Liberal party and the Liberal Government! It is evident to me, Sir, and evident to a lot of people that this is a latent attempt to play upon the emotions of the Newfoundland people.

In the Speech from the Throne once again, we are advised that monetary inflation is now evident in the United States and in Canada. We are no doubt supposed to draw the inference that the financial mess that this Government has . concocted results from Viet Nam and other world wide events. We are all well aware, Sir, of the world monetary situation and the high cost of money due to international circumstances, but does this Government really believe that the people of Newfoundland will accept any suggestion that our $700 million debt and our whole financial situation can be attributed ·to international affairs.

This Government must accept a large share of the blame for the fiscal mismanagement which has gone on. Hr. Speaker, we in Newfoundland have grown accustomed to seeing our national leaders on television, sprouting forth their eloquence at Federal and Federal/ Provincial conferences, sometimes preempting better television shows. We all recognixe the importance of constitutional change which might be necessary so that all Canadians feel completely at home.

We cannot however but grow somewhat impatient at the continuing theoretical talk on the constitutional changes while the fact of regional disparity within the nation merits nothing but sanctimonious lip service. While people talk about regional disparity, the gap broadens or widens. The saying goes, "we twiddle our thumbs, the country gets worse.'' We:_all know what the election promises were in the last Federal election and the Premier and the Liberal party of th!s Province were a party to them.

They certainly supported the promise that the Federal Government would do away with regional disparity once and for all. In a few years such advances would be made that th~re would be no difference in the standard of living ·-.. --: · ... •.1

\' .. February 23th., 1970 Tape n~ • 2.1 PAGE 4 for ~ewfoundlanders living in the coves or in the cities than people living in other p;irts of Canada. We all know how wrong this has beezt'l We all know how false it has been and we all know, as I have said before, the gap has continued to widen. I remember last s1.111D1ler, l-1r. Speake-r, when I toured Newfoundland.

I beleive it was in Placentia Bay soetewhere tha,t: this old gentleman said to :ne, " what ~oat this regional disparity bit which the Liberals promised to us1" 1 said, ''what do you think of it?" He said, "as far as I am concerned, they have se.nt it all down b.ere." I would say that that just about sums up what the Government is doin~ about regi ·o.nal disparity. ,, . ., -~----------- ---·· ------

\'. . MR. HAROLD COLLINS: Mr. SpEaker, mention is also made in the Speech of a conference to be called of persons and organizations, to whom the economic future of our Province, is of particular interest and concern. It is said that this conference will be held in St. John's in the near future, and vill be the forerunner of the introduction of the Regional and Economic Expansion program. Vhile we recognize this step as being one of our proposals, and it was one of our proposals - we will not whine about that of course, and we will certainly support the idea.

However, we cannot be blamed at this late stage, if we are less than enthusiastic about it, We have seen many large conferences before, staged on Television - the charts and maps and so on. And I would say that if the Premier really intends to let those people speak, and then listen to what they have to say - adopt some of the ideas and suggestions which they will bring forth - th~n the conference will be worthwhile, But I am afraid if it goes the way other conferences have gone, then it will be just another exercise ah~ futility. I am amazed Mr.

Speaker, that all the talk emanating from the Government, about the DREE program - and I do not like the term DREE Program - however, it has been talked about as much now that we will go along with that.

So much talk about the DREE program - I cannot understand why in the name of the world, the Government did not call together, municipal leaders, leaders in education, Chamber of Commerce, Community Council - all of the organizations, the Development Associatio~s, and many of them exist across the !sland, on the Northwest Coast, in Green Bay, in Gander and various places in Central Newfoundland, Why those people were not called together before - and come up with their plans - and naturally some of them might not have great wor~, but some of them certainly would - come up with their plans and formulate a policy, formulate a program for submission to the Federal Government.

Mr. Speaker, there is a lot of confusion here. We are told that the first s~age of the program is ready to be signed by April 1st. If there is a program or an agreement ready to be signed by April 1st. What in the name of goodness, is the point in bringing people in from all over Newfoundland, to offer ideas and suggestions for that. Obviously that program has been designed now, and awaits signature. We are also told that shortly after that, another agree111ent will be signed, a five year agreement and evidently this If •1'

\'. . is the one which they hope to draw upon the wisdom of those organizations, and 'come up with some information which they might be able to use. However, I would say that the whole program Sir - it is rather late to start ·"asking people for suggestions if we really intend to listen to them, and as far as I am concerned, something should have been done long before. And we should have come up with a realistic program, taking into account, the need for rural, and well as urban development - a realistic program - presented it to Ottawa, and got on with the job. Hr.

Speaker, I have travelled this Island extensively, and it is heart­ breaking when one talks with some of the people who are living now in the bays and coves, and the islands around Newfoundland -with the confusion which1 exists, they do not know whether the Government have plans to move them out tomorrow, or next week, or next year - To hear them relate the news froQ friends and relatives who have already moved to so-called growth centers - to hear them relate the difficulties which they have run into, in terms of housing, lack of housing, lack of employment and so on and so forth.

It is really heartbreaking Sir, to hear so many people, so confused and so concerned over the future which is in store for them. 1 think it might be worth mentioning here, that just a few days ago, ve heard a release from the Mayor of Botwood, indicating his concern, regarding the number of families who are moving into that particular town, from areas around Green Bay. People who are coming in, going on welfare - very, very poor housing facilities. People who did not know why they moved, or what moved, one might say.

This is indicative Sir, of the Government's resettlement program, and what I would like to see, and I am sure that hon. members on this side of the House, and many bon. members on the other side of the House, would like to see more planning going into this. Certainly, there is a lot to be said for relocating people, and certainly Sir, there is a lot to be said, for leaving a lot of people where they are - and bringing some services, and some industry if possible, to them, in those places. As an example for instance, in the town of Gander, a part of the district which I have the honour to represent.

The town of Gander, and many people · down through the years have worked in Gander, and lived in Gambo- worked in Gander, and lived in Glenwood - worked in Gander, and lived in Clarenville, and Musgrave Harbour. And the same applies in Grand Falls and St. John's, .... ·r ~- -- ----·---- -~- -.. ---- --

whereas people work in the larger towns, and commute back and forth to their homes where they can live cheaper, where they can live with their friends and relatives. And where they also can tend to their gardens and so on and so forth. There is a lot to be said for this, and I am afraid that the Government has forgotten this altogether, and has taken the position that all the people must be moved to St. John's, to Corner Brook, to Gander. And then of course, you have the Federal Government, on the other hand, who have decided evidently that we are not going to keep them in St.

John's either - they are going to move them to Halifax or Toronto, or Montreal. I would say Sir, that the sooner people get their minds together, and find out what the people want, and so on and so forth - the better it will be for us all. Sir, we are told that before this Session closes, we will be made aware of what the agreement consists of - the agreement which is to be signed, and the DREE program. And I would hope Mr. Speaker, that certainly consideration will be given to the educational needs of the Province.

We certainly need, in my opinion, and I am sure all bon. members will agree - we certainly need a great amount of money to improve our elementary school system. We have, done ,, I would say, a reasonably good job ~~ our high school system, but certainly the elementary school system needs a lot of attention. And if this is not successful, of course, then the high school and University systems cannot be successful. I believe also

\.' .. I believe also, sir, that much work must be done in co-ordinating the efforts of Vocational and Elementary Schools and High Schools. I believe we must forget, perish the thought forever, that all Newfoundlanders are going to go to University. I do not know what the Canadian average is, but I suspect it is in the order of maybe tventy -· twenty-five percent of the students who graduate from High School go through University.

Certainly, in Newfoundland it would be low~r, and there is a great need for co-ordination of Vocational and High School methods at the High School level, because just as sure as day follows night, the great majority of our Newfoundland students will not be going to University. They will have to face the very competitive world in terms of finding jobs and we will certainly have to equip them with the skills so that they can take advantage of the various trades which are offering. We all know, sir, that we are living in a technological age.

Today when High School graduates graduate from school and go to a Vocational School, and qualify himself for one of the trades and hope to settle doYn and work in this trade for his lifetime. That day is gone. AS the experts tell us, that in the future, we can expect that a man vho is qualified for a trade today might be able to work, possibly in that trade for three or four years.

At that point he will have to be prepared to upgrade .himself asd':'eertainly if he is required to upgaade himself, thea he is going to have to get the background from his High-School and Voc.:ttion School training to enable him to do that. M~. Speaker, we see in the Throne Speech an attempt by the present, by the Liberal Government, to take full credit for the establishment of the Saltfish Marketing Board. All bon. members know that the legislation has presently required a House of Commons which will, when passed, permit the setting out of the saltcod marketing board.

He, on this side of the House, have been screaming for this for years, and so has the fisherman, and I would say, sir, that the six--noisy Tories who went to Ottawa last year, certainly had a great influence on pressuring the federal government to finally seeing the light and fin.:tlly setting up this board which should prove to oe very beneficial to all of our fisherm~n. -·-·- .. ~---- ._. ··l

We have some doubts, of course, about the effectiveness of the Board. We vill not, now, until the Board is established and Ye see some of the things which they plan to do. I 3111 sure that ~he hon. Minls~er of Fisheries vill agree vith me that one of the primary crises of the Board, one of the first things that must be done, is we must try and preserve some space in our inland waters for our fishermen, for inshore fisherman. Maybe that will not be a function of the Board, but certainly if the Board is going to be effective, then we must have some fishery preserves for our inshore fishermen.

Secondly, I would say, sir, that for the fishery to be successful, to make a comeback, then we are going to have to equip our fishermen better. We are certainly going to have to educate them and to, in the merits of producing a quality product as opposed to quantity. This will be a very difficult problem, no doubt, but unless we do a lot of work on this and come up with a better product, then the whole thing might have been for nought.

No doubt the Minister of Fisheries has got some ideas of his owu, but I would suggest that certainly we must think in terms of the fisherman as being the man who goes down to the sea in ships, as it were, who goes in the boat and catches the fish, brings them back to sho~e. and then the f!$h is taken over by some processors, whate~r you might call them, and the fish, processed under sanitary conditions, under conditions which are conducive to protecting the product_ and producing a good edible and marketable product.

There is much work to be done here, and only by producing a quality product can we ever hope regain the markets which we have lost down tbrough the years. Sir, the Speech also makes mention o.f off-shore mineral rishts and the fact that the Government has engaged a legal authority to advise them of this matter. Naturally, we are almost ~erested in this type of development aad, of course, we are all gravely conce:ned about the possibility of pollution. There is no need for us, at this time, tc mention the iiad ''thing which happened in Placentia Bay last year.

It certain1y is indicative to all of us that where industry is permitted to establish~,. then every possible precaution must be taken to make sure that none of ~he waters or the air or the soil is polluted. There was too much confusion. !Hr. Speaker, in our opinion. There was too much confusion over that partic~r issue. There were months and months and months before the Provincial Covernment or the Federal Government ... , ..

\ ' . . February 23, 1970 Tape 23 GC-3 moved. I suppose the Provincial Government took the position that it was a Federal Government responsibility. But, sir, whose responsibility it is does not matter. It certainly does not matter as far as I am concerned because if we are living in Newfoundland, then we have a responsibility to Newfoundlanders. If it is the jurisdictional responsibility of level of government, certainly the Provincial Government has the responsibility to make sure that they know what is going and that they take steps to eliminate any pollution sncli.as.we . s~ in Placentia Bay. Hr.

Speaker, in view of what has happened off the coast of Nova Scotia the past couple of weeks, and in view of the reports which are eminating from the Buring Peninsula in regard to oil pollution, makes us all wonder where we are going. The fact that we have a refinery at Holyrood, certainly should make us aware of the distinct, the very distinct possibility of pollution in that particular area, if something should happen to oae of · · tbe:;.unkers coming in. Looking ahead to Come-by-Chance and the refinery there, cettainly with the large tankers coming we should be very much concerned.

And I would hope thet before this se~sion of this bon. House is over with that the minister responsible would be able to table this House--the information of all .embers, just what precautions the Provincial Government has taken and what they plan to do in co-operation with .·the Federal Governcent to make sure that never again will we have a Placentia Bay and Nova Scotia and the con­ dition that we have on the Burin Peninsula right now. So much for pollution of the sea. We have all heard of the pollution of the Exploit's River. We know that there is a certain amount of pollution ~n all the rivers.

We do not know possibly what is causing it. We certainly do not know yet how to remedy it. At least, I have not seen the ;ove~t come ~P with anything. I believe, sir, that the time has not only come, the time has passed, vben serious consideration must be given to this, because in our opinion, it is necessary to close the plants:down, and close them down for some time, and certainly that has got to be done if the sources of pollution in our inland waters and other waters and soil is to be prevented. ·.

\ • .. . tebruary 23, 19.70 Tape 23 GC-4 We all: :must ·take heart from the efforts which are being macle in the United States as defined by President Nixon in his ltate of the U!Uon address some time ago. they made a terrible number of bad mistakes in the atates in years t;one by in their ll!ll.d dash for industrialisoation. We should have learned from their errors then. · We c;ertainly should have learned in recent years, but if we did not learn from that, veil,·.-·then let us certainly learn .from what· they are doing now to try and prevent further pollutiOQ. and vbat they are doing in· their efforts to eliminate existing pollution.

\ '. !' HR. COLLINS: Sir, mention is made of inflation, and the Government plans to fight and curb inflation. I think it is generally agreed that the Federal and Provincial Governments policy to fight inflation has been a collossal failure. The first effects of the pollution which they have adopted us to, ts to create more unemploy- ment.

I do not know what the unemployment rate is in Newfoundland today the figures which are provided by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics are confusing and surely not broken dovn to the extent where we can determine just what the picture is in Newfoundland, but I would say that it is in the order of 20 to 30%. I remember just a little while ago taking a little drive from Gander down around what we call the loop, to Gander Bay to Carmanville , straight Shore, Musgrave Harbour, Ladle Cove, Lumsden the peninsula Wesleyville, Valleyfield, up Bonavista Bay to Centreville Bare Bay, Gambo. Mr.

Speaker it is very difficult to find a person who is working. It is not very difftcult to find many many people praying to you to want to see if a job can be found in Churchill Falls or some other place. I suspect that this is similar to conditions which obtain in other sections of the Province. Certainly the unemployment rate is very high and certainly the government policy to fight inflation, to curb inflation is creating more unemployment. This is done, I suppose for two effects, one, is to cut back in government expenditures which is fine in Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia Certainly, Mr.

Speaker, we cannot afford to cut back in government exp~r.citures in Newfoundland this year or for a godd many years to come. we· have all seen add heard a great deal about the prices and income commission which has been established or resurrected in Ottawa. We all saw the meeting which took place in Ottawa a while ago,staged on Television. There vas a committee of business leaders ahd government leaders from across Canada, all of those were very much concerned about the inflationary pressures which now exist. Hr.

Speaker, it struck me, as bein~ a rather poor exhibition on behalf of our government leade•s and our business leaders. They seem to,,certainly the business people seem' to have come to the conclusion that there vas a need to hold prices keep prices where they were, where they are now. And if the government agrees that this would be a good step. But, Sir, for big business, and when I say big business I mean big business, the big business houses in Canada, who marketed food 1 package the foods, and so on and so forth.

For those people to agree to price restraint and bold the line , possibly beginning the first of May or the first of April does not .ean too much. Beaause it is only for them to raise their prices here and there a litlle berween now and then and they can buy enough whereby they can certainly hold · ~~ them for one year. Many peo~le have called me during the past t~o or three weeks, , vhen -----· -- - --

\" .. when I say many, Mr. Speaker, I mean 1'\any neorle c:lo:z:ens and dozens of people, indicating to me that the Price of t-eef has increa!>ed as much as ten and fifteen cents in one week. Then last week it went arain about another four or five cents there is every indication from the hi? packin~ houses and the \.•holesale _rs that the price of beef, I am usin~ beef as one instance, as one commodity, has every indication /that it is ~oinp to p.o higher which means that beef will probablv be selling around the firtt of April by a $1.75 ancl $1.80 a pound.

So it is certainly ·not much of a burden on the big business hou ses to hold the price beginning April the first, t-ecause the price has already been up there. It was said at that conference that for the methods '1-lhich thev agreed to adopt for it to be effective in holdin~ prices and in fighting inflation then it '1-•ould also be n~cessary for labour tc holcl the line in tetl"s of thei.r defTlands on p:ove:rnment and on business. Mr.

Speaker, I do not kno1,• how l !C can hold the line on old a~e pensi.nners any:·lonp,er. ~I certatnly do-. n<'t kno1-• ho~r Pe c<tn hold the line on Pelfare neople and IUcertainl:v do not knotv ho,.• ~·e can hold the line as f:tr as the rllinimum vaPe is concerned. !-'ost of our people have been receiving increases i.n their p:w durin~ the past year and two years, and certainly we cannot afford to expect people to ¥ork for !1.25 an hourfor ~nother ten years.

T aM ho~eful before this session is over that the provincial ~overnment ~ill see fit to r<tise the minimu~ wa~e and certainly !'lake it equal ray for equal work. tJhat I mean by that is VOJl'en should be paid equal pay vith men if thev are doinR si.rnilar tyoe of work" as the men do, On page four and five, on pa~es four and five, the Government while admittin~ the falling off in economic ilctivi.tv sav that thev are ou:!.te confident thattl970 will bring a distinct improvernenqin economic conditions and they list the follovin~ reaso:ts. It "'ill be a better year for salt fish producers.

I do not knm·• what the~ mean by this. Anoth~r st~er like we had in LaPrador last vear there will be no fish produced. Exnorts nf herrin).' will he out. "'ore ei!'T'loyment at Churchill Falls, and we go on with more employ~ent opportunities in Come hy Chance and Stephenville and Ha1~kes J!av and vhat have you. Ve ;~re ho~eful, ~r. Speaker, those plans come to pass, we are certainly hopeful that Come hy Ch11nce will become a reality the en~~blishll'ent of the mill and the other refinery there.

We certainly hope that Stephenville will ~et ~oin~ and that the ~raat sa"~ill and lumber complex at Hawkes Bay will ~et ~oin~ and we arelalso hopeful that we will find other integrated sawmill and pulPmill operations established in areas in Newfoundland such as Botwood and Cander and other ·,.;ect1ons where we .have unlimited :o;upply of

\'. raw material. ~r. Speaker, ~~~t about all of pap.e 5 is devoted to housing. The (;overnment is concerned over the lack of adequate housing and now tells us that the solution to the problem is shell housing. Last year Sir, I think it was last year, ar the year before, recently anyway, all of our housin~ prohlerns were to be solved by the establishment of two factories, one at Bay Roberts and one at Stephenville.

We did not believe that at the time, ve, naturally hope that this would be the case, but we also knew that it was not to be the case , and I think that time has shown that the establishment of these two factories while they have been doing a considerable amount of work they have not been successful in solving the housing pr~blem ot the Newfour.dland peoole.

However, the su~gestion of shell housin~ if we can get Central ~ortga~e and Housing money lenders to go along ~d.th the idea of a person living in his house and completin~ it afterwards it is a very fine concept, it is nothing new, it has been done in Newfoundland for years, and we would hope the ~overnment really makes a strong and determined effort in this direction and hopefully that housing will be supplied to the peop~e who need it. I would say also that there is certainly a need for review of the rents which are being charged to people who are occupying subsidized rental units.

A person for instance today making $500 a month is certainly not in a position to be able to erect a house under the national housing act standard. ne has not got the money, he finds it difficult to get enough for a down paymentaarid were he to have a down payment'he:is not makin~ enough to carry on his payments over the months and over the years but still they expect that man if he occupies a subsidized rental un1_t to pay the @overnment a $150 a month.

I would say, Sir, and in fact I would strongly suggest ri?ht now and request the eovernmeot to take a good hard loo1< at this and bring those rates down to 1110re realistic level to provide people in the lo~er and middle income ~roups can take adv~~tage of that type of housing. Mr. Speaker, there is very little said in the speech about transportation policy, or of tourif'm. All: Newfoundlanders I am sure are f!:rea tly concerned about what is obviously a move by Canadi~n Nation~! to curtail all operations in this Province.

It is noted that the Minister of transport for instance, has-established a commission to study and report to him on transportation problems on the South Coast, Of_course, that happens to be the Hinister of Transoorts district. I would like to see, and I ~·ould like this House to go on record as re'1uestinS-" the Minister cf Transport to have a thorouP.h study of transPortation done all over Newfoundland. -·-·----·- -----

\' .. MR. H.COLLINS: ,: !-lot only in terms of t•hat Canadian National are providing or what they are not providing, or Hhat they propose to do, but in all aspects of transportation because if this Province is going to develop, if we are going to develon our tourist business and so on and so forth then the key very likely lies in good transportation facilities. Mr. Speaker, I touched just now on pollution in our rivers. I remember, and why I reoember it uas only a few days ago that I read it an

article in Sports Illustrated concerning the North Atlantic salmon. All of the members will remember that last year when the Tourist Develonments report vas tabled in this House it was indicated that sports fishing industry in Newfoundland brought bett~een three and four millions of dollars to the economy of this Province. That was for 1968 I suspect Sir, ::hat the figure for 1969 will certainly be as great as that and possibly greater.

I do not know how many hon. members are aware of the fact that the North Atlantic salmon, the salmon which come into our rivers and spawn and ~o back to sea again - this is the fish which is brinRing many of the sports fishermen to Newfoundland. We do a fairly good job of promoting it in the States, and Europe and the mainland of Canada, and of those $3 or $4 million which did come in it was mainly by people who came here to catch North Atlantic salmon in our rivers.

This Government operates a cabin on the Gander River which is in my district, where they quite rightly I suppose entertain prospective people who might be enticed to come to l{etvfoundland and invest money. Certainly people who ~~uld come in here and have some fishing and go back and give a good report. It will be noted, I do not know if the appropriate department kept records or not, but it will be noted that last year the heaviest fish caught on Gander River was seven pounds. I doubt if very many fishermen on the river ever caught their limit.

Now Sir, I can remember about five or six years ago when salmon on that river, and other small streams in that area were caught weighing in the order of twenty-eight and thirty pounds, and it was no problem at all to catch ones limit. Some research is bein~ done on salmon, not as much as we would like to see. Certainly very little research is being done by Newfoundland, and po~sibly we are not in a position to do so but, we should certainly be pressuring the Canadian Government into doin~ more research than they are : to establish just what i~ happeninR to our North Atlantic salmon.

I suspect Sir, that the reRson for the sRmllness in size, and the reduction in numbers ~~

,._ . is due to several reason~ oossibly pollution, certainly partly due to inadequate protection, and Yhilejagree that the Federal Governemnt has responsibhi!y for protection~ certainly if the rivers and the ~almon mean so much to us then the Newfoundland Government has responsibilities to insure that proper protection is afforded the fish when they enter the streams.

Certainly there is a need for hatcheries to produce the spaYn for restocking our rivers. l\fe found that in ~aine in the United States, and all earts of Canada restocking has heen taking place over the years. l\fe have &de no move in this direction.

I think the time has certainly come, !f .. not ! long past when we should t-e makin~ a move in that direction, Hot;ever, supposi.ng ye. ~·ere doing all t<~e could in this respect, it seems to me and accordinJ!; to this report that possibly there are more salmon destroyed, or not destroved but cauJ!;ht in the l·taters off Greenland, and the Danish fishermen are catching more salmon and having a ~reater effect on the Poor nualitv, poor size and small numbers of salmon returnin~ than anything else.

Now I realize that this ~~uld ~e a problem for international discussion •. and international aJ!;ree~ent, but certainlv we cannot sit idly bv and hope that the Canadian Government ttill be doin~ everythin~ for us. I think we should make sure that the Canadian \~vernment will be doin~ all in their power and if that Government cannot find that they can reach some solution, some agreement 1rlth the Danish C~vernment then Possibly economic sanction chould be considered. Mr.

Speaker, I would he remiss in my duties if I did not make some reference to the district of r.ander, the district which I have the honour to represent in this Rouse. Rovever, mv remarks t-rill be short because hopeful!y during the session tn discussin~ legislation, and in the Budget debate I wil be able to deal more extensivelv ~~th some of the problems which we face. I not sup_pose that. 1unl ike the rest of Ne,.rfoundland some of the main problems .,certainly Botwood is the need for industry of some sort to provide 1ohs.

I am hopeful · that the minister resoonsible is making every effort still to revitalize the ~ort, take advanta~e of the facilities which have heen provided there in terms of docking and waz:ehousin~~:. We all must be very much "'-"~-'are of the deleiMla in Bishops Falls. The possibility of the phase out of the railway and I am sure that the people of Bishops Falls are hopeful, and certainly I am, and certainly our member of Parliament is that the Premier's meetinll: recently with railway officials will bear some fruit and certainly Hill mean somethin~ to the

\' .. continuance of the raihmy operations in the town of Bishops 'Falls. In Glen,.oood l·'e are very fortunate in that ~·e have a very successful woods operation p:oing there. Ho••ever, many of the workers, and I am sure all Ne01foundlander~ are concei't1ed ahout the nrop:ress l.rhich is being made in terns of automation - ·buying· netv types of equipment wll.ich is doing away with the, need for employing men. I do not know if there is much we can do with this, but certainlv it is necessary that Government and industry take a look at this because, there is not much point ~!r.

Speaker, in us raping all of our natural resources by machinery if none of our people are to gain any benefit from it. Mr. Sneaker, I am sure that many neople in Newfoundland have been disappointed with what the speech did not contain. Certainly there was not much there to give much encouragement to the Newfoundland Constabulary. Certainly there was very little to give any encouragement to the hospital workers in NeYfoundland. l~e have heen told that this tvill he taken care of as the session progresses - I can only say that I hope that is true. Hr.

Speaker, that just about sums up my fet·/ remarks on the Address and Reply and I nolv have the nleasure to move, . seconded by the hon. member for Fortune Bay that the following trords be added to the Address and Replv - that this fious.e recognizes the failure of th.; r>resent Gover-mnent to deal with the financial and economic problems which exist in ~ewfoundland and Labrador today, and consequently no longer has confidence in the present Government. HR.

SPEAKER: The question beinp, before the House is that the Address and Reply be amended by adding the uords as follows; That this Houses recognizes the failure of the present Government to deal tdth the financial and economic problems which exist in Newfoundland and Labrador today, and consequently no longer has confidence in the present C~vern~ent. Is the House ready for the question on the amendment? Shall the amendment carry? Those :l.n favour "aye," contrary "nay." It i~ my opinion that the "nay's" have it. ·. MR. R.R.V.F.ARLE: is it too late? SOME HON.

ME~rnEPS: l-'ith regard to the amendment I vish to make the~e fev remarks l Too late, too late of tine MR. SPEAKE~: I Patted~ t think considerable len~tl,, 1 m.w!->e I ~~as surprised but there vas no dePate on the a~ndment, ~ut I did certainly hesitate and wait, and I asked '~as the llou~e readv for the nuestion, I received no vord so consequently 1'1 I put the <Juestion and the matter is no•~ clo~ed.

MR. CALLAHAN: (~ini~ter of Mine~, A~riculture and ~e~ources): Mr. Speaker, I hope I will not take too much of the time of t~e House Sir, but there are a number of thin~s that I should like to refer to in respect to the Speech from the Throne, in resp~ct to some of the observations that have been made concerning the Speech and items in it. Before I do that, I should like to make reference in the bef;inninR Mr. Spe:~.ker, to the mover and seconder of the motion that a cowmittee he appointed to draft the addre~s in reply. These two hon. members, the hon. memher for Trinity North and the bon. member for St.

Mary's, are two of the finest persons I kno1?1 and I should also like to say that as the successor in office , to the bon. the membf!r for Trinity North I find it hard to find words adequately to express my ~ratitude for his many kindnes.ses to me -. \'. . ·. " .

\'. . BON. WILLI&~ N. CALLAHAN (Mines, Agriculture & Resources): The Leader of the-Opposition, Mr. Speaker, said it was unusual, I think that was the term he used, that two former members of the administration, should move and second the Address in Reply. And he went on to give his deduced reason for it. I think Mr. Speaker, that it is not precisely unusual - the unusual nature of the procedure - the participation of those two bon. members that actually caught the attention of the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. I think he probably was surprised, and not too pleasantly surprised at that.

Here are two hon. gentlemen, with fine records of public service - obviously, neither spineless nor mindless, Mr. Speaker. His very presence on this side not alone their fine speeches on Wednesday, and what those speeches contained - two bon, gentlemen, whose very presence on this side, flings back across the Bouse, I think, the allegations, the fear and the frustration, and domination that have been heard. Mr. Speaker, I hope these actions of these two hon. gentlemen on Wednesday, have in fact, put to rest, the myth and the lie that has been put about to that effect. I would further say, Mr.

Speaker, that we have heard quite enough of that kind of thing. I suggest that a man's integrity, his courage, or his honesty, and his independence, and the measure of them, are matters for each man's own conscience in this House. And I would hope seriously, Mr. Speaker, in the interest of the House, and the dignity of the House, and the dignity of ::hon. members of the House, that we have in fact heard just about all that we are going to hear of that kind of silly and stupid charge. Mr. Speaker, the bon. member for Humber East says, "not yet" - and that may be a measure of his appreciation of the House.

But I will say this Sir, that no member of this House should have to defend his character, or his virtue, against any other member of the House. And the kind of thing Sir. that we heard on many occasions recently, in respect of, and including opening day. In respect of the motives or intentions, or the character, or the courage of members, I think, is out of place. As I say, I hope we ·will not hear of it again. Nov Mr. Speaker, there is another comment that I would like to make at this point, because I had some small responsibility for it last year. And .T ------ - ---- ------- -

~ - that is to say to the Editor of Hansard and his staff, that the first result of their work in this Session, in my opinion, is quite excellent. The publication of Hansard in this form was begun last year, in the interest of a better and more up-to-date record of the House - for the information of news media, for the information ultimately of the public. And in the interest of accuracy, a and I must say that the first product of this Session is quite excellent document, and I think the House will agree that a word of commendation to the Editor and his staff is quite in place. Mr.

Speaker, I must say that I am bit appalled at the pessimism of the Leader of the Opposition. He took to reading long sections from the Amulree Report. I suggest that he could have come upon a much lighter document in point of time. He perhaps could be considered the spiritual descendant of a gentleman who once sat on this side of the House, who some twenty years ago, voiced, almost precisely, the same fears, the same apprehensions, that the Leader of the Opposition voiced here on opening day, using the Amulree Report to bolster his case. I think 1 have said this before Mr.

Speaker, but perhaps bears repetition, that you either are convinced of the future of this Province, or you are not. And if - and I hope it does not - but if the degree of pe~simism I hear from certain quarters, from time to time, is a valid indication of the deep-seated feeling of the closely held feelings of certain people, then I wonder if they really in fact, feel that we do have a future. The Government certainly have Mr. Speaker, I would be very quick to agree with that. But seriously, I have to say ~lr. Speaker, that if one does not believe - Let me go back.

We either stand still or try to hold on to what we have, relatively speaking, or we try to improve them. We have already lost the best part of a hundred years, in relation to other Provinces in Canada. We are that far behind. I do not think I need to hammer home the argument, that unless we catch up,our people will find ~ore desirable places to live, But we either attempt to catch up, and do in fact, catch up - and believe that we can catch up, or we do not believe it. And that may be a very useful separation, Mr. S~eaker, of the sheep from the goats.

And pessimism at this point in time, aside from being totally unfounded ~r. Speaker, because it certainly the position the Amulree Comnission found, has no more relationship S1

\'. . to the position as it is today, than black is white. I have read it, Mr. Speaker. And those were the days of half-pay for the Civil Service - those were the days, when the Government had roughly, thirty cents on the dollar left of its revenue, to spend., The position today, is in·,the area, I would think, about seventy, or seventy-five percent. The Civil Service are certainly not anticipating, nor do they need to anticipate, may I say, a cut in pay - The Civil Service is growing - it is being up-graded, the S peech says. And the Civil Service indeed Mr.

Speaker, can look forward to a situation that in relation to the situation in the 1930's, when the Royal Commission sat, is indescribable. Now there is no basis Mr. Speaker, for the kind of approach that the Leader of the Opposition has taken, except perhaps a purely partisan, and political basis. And I would say to the people of this Province, that what was said here the other day, in such pessimistic terms, should be regarded in that light. Hr. Speaker, the Speech makes reference to the problem at Argentia, quite properly so.

And I have noticed one or two comments - there has not been very much said here, but there has been comments about the Argentia situation. And the editor of the Evening Telegram took it upon himself tc observe tha~ if the Cove~cnt h~d a?plied itself to the problem at Stephenville, and was going to apply itself in the same manner, to the problem of Argentia, then - and I quote the words "The Argentia people vill need more assurance than that performance". Now maybe Mr. Speaker, that the writer of that editorial, is not very well informed, and has not been on the West Coast recently.

Or if he has, I have to wonder whether in fact, he was portraying the situation as it is - Indeed he was not. And Mr. Speaker, in order to indicate to the people of Argentia, who certainly need some encouragement at this point, and in order to dispel the kind of discouragement that arises from that kind of comment. I should like Mr.

Speaker, quickly and not in detail, and not completely, but in a general sense, just list some of the activities that have occurred, and have come about at Stephenville, in the three years - it was officially three years on the 31st. of September, since the property was turned over by the American Airforce. The bon. gentleman opposite Hr. Speaker, is crying in the wilderness, and I will be glad to discuss Atlantic Brew~ry. · any day

' . \ \ . February 23rd. 1970 Tape #26 Page 4 now when it becomes a quite viable industry - and begins again. as it is going to do - to employ people in my district at Port-au-Port. Mr. Speaker, rather than get side-tracked, let me say this. The first move the Government made, was to appoint a corporation - the Harmon Corporation. to care for and maintain the property, and to deal with perspective industry. The Government activated the hospital. Yhich is one of the finest hospitals we have in this Province.

It was located at Stephenville, but was badly needed, and now the facilities became available at no cost - and made it possible to have a depot for the Department of Highways, for that whole area - for maintenance and operative work. An agreement was made with Air Canada. whereby theAirline agreed to continue for at least five years to use Stephenville Airport. And I might say that the agreement was necessary at that time, because people had an impression - not unlike the impression perhaps people have now. of Argentia - that everybody would move out - the place would become a ghost town. And I can assure you Mr.

Speaker. it never has been, and certainly is not now, a ghost town. There was established there. a heavy equipment school. This Government put out a million dollars. which was recovered - at least most of it. I understand. from the Government of Canada - and purchased heavy equipment, and set up a school to train heavy equipment operators. ~ou do not hear very much about it Mr. Speaker - You hear that people are not trained - You have so many men that could get jobs, if they w~re trained.

And that little school at Stephenville, has trained in about two years, a little over two years of operations - nearly five hundred men. ·.

February 23rd, 1970 Tape no. 27 pa~e 1 and I have the recent report from the school which indicates that between seventy and eighty percent of those men are known at this moment, Sir, to be employed. Very many of them at Churchill Falls and a fair number in jobs on the Island replacing men who have moved to Churchill Falls. I suggest that that is one of the success stories of the recovery of Stephenville and one of the success stories in respect to the training of our men in the Province for useful employment. It is going on, of course.

There also was located there the Stephenville Adult Centre and this is another operation, Hr. Soeaker, which I commend to the ~tentlemen of the ne"WS media. They want something t;orthwhile to "Write about. They might ~ell take a very close look at what has ha~pened in Stephenville over the past three years. What has happened, Sir, is that growin~ numbers of people and this year up to, in excess of 1,000 men and women are bein~ fitted either to go into employment or to go into trades' training. In many cases, these are people who have dropped out of school - well some did not ret into school.

The vast majority with nothing at all in the way of high school education. These people are being made employable and they are being employed. They come from all over this Province and they are being give!l the opportunity cf ~:::plcyr;,o:nt through being able to meet the criteria and the standards. They are there from Labrador, Hr. Speaker and, of course, the hon. minister has,·now launched the operation of a school of this nature in Labrador, in addition to those which have been operated as t1ell on Bell Island and on the Avalon Peninsula. This was the start of that p~ogram, Hr.

Speaker, and as I say it is a fantastic succcess story, when you consider that out of every ten men in t~is Province on short-te~ assistance in any of the past several years, nine of them have no higb ~ achool ~hatsoever, llr. Speaker. Only one according to the statistics, according to the information taken from applicants, vhen they apply, nine out of ten have no high school. Mr. Speaker,! do not think anyone has to use his brain very much to realize that a man today without a high school education which is little enough does not have very much chance of being employed. ' ... . ·

February 23rd., 1970 Tape no. 27 page 2 With the Government's assistance, 'Hr. Speaker, there vas established in the Stephenville area at Aguathuna, the Sea Mining Corporation Plant. There was established the Alcan \nre and Cable Plant which is supplying the cable for Churchill Falls. There was es~ablished the International Fisheries Plant, which has been an experimental plant ~ is now turning out herring for human consumption.

There is the Atlant!~ u~sign Homes' Plant, which the bon. member from Gander mentioned and ~ith the fuousinp, situation the vay it has been, there has been a temporary suspensiorn of the operation, but I understand from the manageme~t that it will no~ ~e lon?. before it is back in operation again. There is the formula feed~l, Mr. Speaker. There is a heavy equipment depot. There is the brewery ~ich my hon. friend mentioned and which we think will be back in operation ve~ soon. There is a co-operative supply depot. There is a community stadium whi~ serves the whole of Cape St.

George and I think recreation is certainly pmrt of the community requirement. There is a Newfoundland Forest Products Sawmill~ ~hich is a nice tidy operation. There are two dairies. There aresport facilities available. There is an iron works. There is th~ Mohawk Sports Equipmen~ Plant and, of course, this House at the Government's request has approved ~ guarantee of $53 million to get going there one of the biggest linerboard ~ill in the world. Mr. Speaker, I am not sug~esting that this vill be or can be duplicated at Argentia.

What I am sayin g is that the next time somebody wishes to consider what this Government may attempt to do with Argem~ia, when he~ ccnsiders what has been done at Stephenville, he may well feel that it is not by any stretch of , the imagi~~ion an accura~e to say that the A~gentia people will need more assurance than they might get from the perforcance of Stephenville. I think, indeed, that the people of Argentia would be verT pleasec, Mr. Speaker, as would any community in this Province includinR St.

John's and Corner Brook and the other larger ones to have the infusion of industry and .activity that has occurred in that section, in the most important

section of Fa·rt au Port district. Mr. Speaker, I noticed something else in the Evening Telegram which in case it might cause some confusion, it mi~ht be well t~ mention here and it again was

\' . . ...... t: uu. 4.1 with reference to the Speech from the Throne; particularly in reference to the

section of the Speech dealing with the possibility of new iron-ore development in Labrador. You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that the first part of the reference dealt with a particular and rather detailed expansion and then it went on to refer in a general way to a possible additional expansion. The Evening Telegram went on to speculate that this s~cond reference might be and I am quoting, " to an associated development in nearby Quebec; presumably the ~ount Wright Project which is so involved with the proposed Labrador-Quebec road." I would just like to say, }!r.

Speaker, that it is not to be presumed or assumed that the reference was to an operation in the province of Quebec. Indeed I was rather surprised to find the Throne Speech referring directly to a matter about to occur in the province of Quebec. I suppose it could happen. It certainly would zro·t be usual. Now the bon. member for Labrador West sal~ something. I did not quite catch it. I take lt~that his reference had tc be to the matter of the Labrador­ the proposed Labrador highway. Let me say three things. I think I knew what the bon. gentleman said, ~x. Speaker. I would like to say three things about it.

One thing is this. Perhaps there are four things I would like to say. One thing is this: that the officials in the ~ebec government whom I know and who have some responsibilities in that area hawe estimated what that road would cost and our Department of Highways have conf:ILrmed as .a rough estimate and the money we are talking about, Hr. Speaker, is in the neighbourhood of $60 million.

The second thing that has to be sai& and it is in relation to that is that, if any government, this C~vernment or any government of this Province were to set out to spend that kind of money in anot~her province, they should be thrown out. Yet this is what was proposed to be done at the beginnin~, Mr. Speaker. The Premier has told this House on several occasions of his discussions vith the Prime Minister of Quebec. I think he has made it clear that a proposal could be arrived at and considered bringing in the Government of Canada.

The Minister of Highways and the Minister re~ponsf®le for Transportation to my recollection made this very proposal many mondfus ago to the Transportation Commission, ~hen they visited St. John's. The Transportation Committee in the Ho~se of Common, I believe. Is that right? ~ow that committee have recommended

-· \" .. February 23rd., 1970 Tape no. 27 Page 4 that proposal. Now that is one thing, Mr. Speaker, and we are very happy about it. We have played a

part in it too. Not in the reckless and unrealistic suggestion that we should go and build a road, Mr. Speaker, in Quebec, but in the proposal that perhaps something should be done and could be done, if the Province of Quebec are villing, because if they are not, then there is no future in it. If the Government of Canada are not willing, there is certainly no future in it, Mr. Speaker, because the idea would be that they would pay most of the cost. SOME HON. MEMBER: The hon. gentleman •• MR. W. R. CALLAHAN: The hon. gentleman will have his turn.

Essentially unless it is a joint proposal, there does not appear to be much that can be done about it at this time. Now the second question that arises has to ~o with the plans of the Quebec CartierMining Company in Quebec, so the Eouse will be clear on it, Mr. Speaker.

In the month of November the Quebea:: Cartier Mini;ng -~ppU:ed .to this Government throu~h the crown lands divisiom of my department for a one year permit to use a right-of-way over some twelve miles of our territort eo thet they could get easily across th~ ~u~~~c ~order to Mount Wright wherefore the next year and this was in November, they w~d be deing some exploration work and feasibility studies to determine whet~ there is at ~ount Wright a good reserve of iron-ore and whether it is feas~le to attempt to extract it. Mr. Speaker, may I say that we agreed quite readily.

We issued the permit and Quebec Cartier ~lining Company are in fact usdng Labrador City at this­ point in time as a base or headquarters in respect of their explorations and their feasibility studies at Mount llright. Tha.lr is what that particular matter is all about, Mr. Speaker, and I hope it is cle$rly understood because all they are doing is putting and I suppose they have dame is used parts of and added to an effective bush road in order to get acces$ over the Quebec border to Mount Wright with equipment and men and materia.E:s. . ..;, · ~

! Mr. Speaker, I am not going to deal very much Yith the regional development program, the Dree Plan, because my hon. friend the Minister of Community and Social Development will be fully informing this House, Sir, in this Session in that regard. But, I did hear a couple of days ago, and I am sorry he is gone, because perhaps, I misunderstood him, and it would be better perhaps, if he were here, he might be able to stir the matter up. But, I am almost certain, Mr.

Speaker, unless my ears absolutely deceive me, that I heard the hon. the member for Fortune a couple of days ago on the radio say that he was fed up with Arda, and with Fred, and with Dree, and he went through some pain to easure that everybody understood how fed up he was. ~nd we have also, of course, had the suggestion from time to time, AQe~ as such, has not done anything in this Province. I would simply like to say, in fairness, that the effect of the program into the Government of Canada, Mr.

Speaker, that two particular programs in this Province, which have been invaluable to this Province, and will be for many years to come, exist because of the ARDA Agreement. Perhaps, the bon. gentleman opposite is not well informed, I do net know. But, the fact is that our Provincial Parks are built and constructed on the basis of a cost shared Arda Agreement, from which t~e Goverr~ent of Canada puts in fifty percent of the Capital Cost. And I suggest that no hon. member here in view of representations, I have and I think, I can judge from them Mr.

Speaker for new parks and various parks - no hon. member here will denigrate the Provincial Parks or attempt in anyway to play down their value both to the Tourist Industry, as is referred to by the bon. ~ember for Gander and in terms of pure recreational for our own people. Last Summer, Mr. Speaker, we had 1,200,000 on our thirty-eight Provincial Parks, and we would have had many more had the parks been bigger, and there been more facilities, had there been more parks obviously.

And we are now expanding nine ... parks, and building one new one near Port Aux Basques, at· the Codroy Estuary in order to take care of the visitor overflow there. So, we are not completely unware, Mr. Speaker, of the Tourist Industry. These, parks in fact are the underpinning as the Tourist Industry, along with our Wildlife, there two elements, I think, demonst~tAbly are the essential elements - and the Tourist Industry we have in this Province today. % r

February 23, 1970 Tape 28 The other prorrall', }'r. Speaker. of 'i'hich I a111 told - 11nd I have seen auite a number of those vho benefited :In thi" ~·Par, in vnrious "arts of the Province. But perhaps the sinp.le rnost beneficial pro.P.ram in a~riculture, that ve have in Ne,•foundland, i!' the Col"rnnni tv PastureR £'ro~ram. I think the House should know, if it does not kno"' alrcarlv, and hon. members vill realize that.

Here again this is an ARnA Pror,ram, a pro~ram under ARPA where ~e have twenty-tl-To parks operatin~ and 'lo'e have others planned. !-'y hoo.e is that ve can get an extension to the apreernent, which is due to run out, I believe, fairly soon, in order to keep {Hitting in the extremely valuable pastures, which 'iiOuld not exist, I sug~est, certainly not in their numbers, if we had to pav one hundred percent of the cost. Mr.

Speaker, the benefits are obvio1~, I thtnk, the benefits to com­ munities where ve do not have the problems of roamin~ anf!llals: the benefits to farmers '1-•ho reallv do not have the land nor the \.'here-vith-all to have their o"~ winter feed.

They can pasture their animals for a very small fee, with full insurance, with full protection, vith veterinarian services and all the services which ~o with it - from ~1 ay until October, eattnp, as t-•e could say. our Frass, and then puttim! them on their mrn land or out to slaurhter or whatever their choice, or feedin~ them on their m-n cut grass durin~ the vinter and possibly supplernentinp it. I have been asked a question, H r. Speaker, as to ~mat the fees are. The fee for full-grown cattle, adult cattle, is five dollars for the season and for calves one dollar, for sheep a dollar. ~r.

Speaker we estimate that the feed value for a steer in a season is about seventy-five doll~rs for which (in addition to all the protection I have ~entioned) the farmer pays five dollars. So it is a very valuable pro,11;ram. I think,tf ve are to have any future in ar,riculture, this is one of the essential elements in it~ So that vhen the hon. ~entlernan says that he is fed up with ARDA, fed up with FRED and fed up with e\•erythin!" else, I just vonder a~ain if it is not just another bit of pessimism or petulance which, on the basis of the faets 0 is not too well justified. Hr.

Speaker, the question l:tas been ra:f.E=ed on off-11hore mineral ri~thts and the attendant problem of rollution due to oil spills and that kind of thing. Let me say in res~ect to off-shore mineral ri~hts that we have been dealing in two areas. We have been dealinp with the Government of Canada and we have been dealin~ with the five Eastern Province~ and with the Joint ~ineral Resources Ar.reement which was si~ned in 1964, initially between the four Atiantie Provinces and then

\'. . ·--·-·.J ----· -· ... the Province of Quebec joined in for obvious reasons. And under this agreement Mr. Speaker, the ministers of the five Provinces, long prior to the Federal Government proposal over a year and a quarter ago, were preparing ground rules, if you like, in respect of the division, the establishment of boundaries, to turntgg points in the division of off-shore areas which might be c~~R~ contiguous to one province to another.

Into this situation came the Prime Minister's proposal in December 1968, wherein the Government of Canada in the first instance assumed jurisdiction of our off-shore waters, and in the second place, drew around the coastal lines of provinces, particularly around the coastline of Newfoundland, and the coastline of Labrador, what we refer to as Resource Administration Lines. And the offer and it was well publizied at the time, the offer was that within these lines, what ever was there, whatever might be found would be one hundred percent provincial revenue.

And of course, a hundred percent provincial administration. Outside the lines it was proposed that it would be totally federal jurisdiction and administration, and that in addition to that, any resources,any monies, any revenues accuring would go fifty percent to the Government of Canada, and fifty percent into an national pool to be divided up among the various provinces. Mr. Speaker, I think, no province prescribed to that because all provinces have been considering their positions. We have been considering ours. Ve have committments to our partners in regard to mineral resources agreements.

One thing the province did do was that at a very early time in relation to the Prime Minister's proposal we went to the joint General Resources Committee and said that we will not discuss this matter further unless this happens - that we seperate the two questions, the question of jurisdiction and the question of administration. Jurisdiction may go on for fifty years in the courts - we do not know , and it is an important issue as everybody concedes.

On the administrative side because we are so involved with our coastlines, vith the problems of pollution, with all the other problems we wish to have a say in administration. So to bring the House up-to-date, ~!r. Speaker, the juisdictional question is separate, and as the speech says, will be taken up as a legal question, vith the best advice possible. MR. J. C. CROSBIE: Will the hon. gentleman permit a question? ··-

PK 4 February 23rd. 1970 Tape I 28 HR. W. CAL~~: I think, the bon. gnetleman will have his turn, Mr. Speaker, MR. J. C. CROSBIE: I known, I will have my turn. But, will the bon. the Minister permit a question - that is all I am asking? MR. W. CALLAHAN: Not at this time, }~. Speaker. Hk. J. C. CROSBIE: Did not the bon. the Premier announce that he received Mr. Trudeau's Proposals? ~ _W. CALLAHAN: The Premier announces, Hr. Speaker, that we have obtained good legal advice, we think the best legal advice available. And Hr.

Speaker, we are proceeding in the meantime with the jurisdictional or the administrative side, while the jurisdictional side will be handled in a legal way as it should. When we come to, Mr.:$peaker, to the other side of the problem that has been raised, the problem of pollution, and certainly it is a very frightening problem, everywhere we look today, you can pick up the newspaper, or look at the television, we are advised today not to eat peanuts, we are told not to drink coffee, do not drink beverages, do not eat this, and do not touch that, and it is getting to be a jungle, in many respects.

In this particular one, Mr. Speaker, let me say thia, that we have been very :uch concerned with this problem for a numher of months - which does not get advice. And the best advice we have and it was the basis for proposal last week at the Federal Provincial Conference, is that the first step that must be taken is some kind of national preparedness plan that will locate all the experts and all the expertees, the knowledge, the equipment, the technical know-how available, so that as soon as something happens, this can all be brought together at the seams.

MR. CALLAHAN: And even granting that Mr. Speaker, there is still the question, that nobody really knoYs hOY to deal with this kind of problem. And so the second position we have taken is that there must be mounted a major research effort. And because it affects off-shore areas, Yhere at least in respect of navigation, and fisheries - the Government of Canada have a very major responsibility. We have proposed to them that this be a national research effort. And quite frankly Mr.

Speaker, because we are the Province with the longest seacoast of any jurisdiction in Canada - because we are an Island Province, to a large degree. Because the tanker fleets of the world sail by our coast, and we are stuck out in the middle of the Atlantic, way out in comparison to the rest of the country. And the~e is no way that you can stop bulk carriers from roaming the seas - so it is kind of useless to do what the to bon. member for Gander seemed to be about suggest - he made a great brave approach. He said we may have to close down the ~plants - or maybe we will have to close down plants.

We had to close down one last year, and I will say more about that in a minute. But that is not the answer. The answer Mr. Speaker, is not to close oil refineries, or bar bulk carriers from the sea, or any of these things. The answer is that there must be research - there must be methods - there must be safe architecture, naval architecture. There must be safe navigation - there must be the development of better methods and better technologies than we now have to prevent these things. And also better methods of coping with them, when they nonetheless happen - SOME HON.

Mll!BER: Will the hon. the Minister permit a quest