Manitoba Hansard — 16 March 1967 (Sitting 73, 28th Legislature, 1st Session)

28-1-73

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable James H. Bilton Vol. XIII PAGES 1699 - 3395 1st Session, 28th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans - Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, March 16, 1967 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions 1699 MR. CLERK: The petition of John Ogle Anderson and others, praying for the passing of

an Act to incorporate the Diocese of, Rupert's Land Development Foundation. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees HON. WALTER WEffi (Minister of Highways) (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present the First Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. MR. CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Public Accounts is very pleased to present the following, their First Report. Your Committee met for organization and appointed Hon. Mr. Weir as Chairman. Your Committee recommends that, for the remainder of the Session, the Quorum of this Committee shall consist of Ten (10) members.

Your Committee has examined the Public Accounts for the Province of Manitoba for the fiscal year which ended the 31st day of March, 1966, as published, and finds that the receipts and expenditures of the monies have been carefully set forth and all monies properly accounted for. Your Committee received all information desired by any members from the Minister, heads of departments and members of the Comptroller-General's staff with respect to receipts, expenditures and other matters pertaining to the business of the Province.

The fullest oppor tunity was accorded to all members of the Committee to examine vouchers or any documents called for and no restriction was placed upon the line of examination. Your Committee agreed to meet again as and when required; all of which is respectfully submitted. MR. WEffi: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Welfare, that the Report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills HON.

GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education) (Gimli) introduced Bill No. 59,

an Act to amend The Public Schools Act (2). HON STERLING R. LYON, Q. C. (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry) introduced Bill No. 62,

an Act to amend The Limitation of Actions Act and to amend certain provisions of other Acts relating to Limitations of Actions. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Provincial Treas urer, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the proposed resolution standing in my name. MR. SPEAKER: Moved by the Honourable the Attorney-General, seconded by the Hon ourable the Provincial Treasurer, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House re solve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider the following proposed resolution standing in his name: Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Attorney General's Act by providing, among other matters, for the preparation and printing of a revision and a consolidation of the statutes of the province. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for Arthur in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed resolution, recommends it to the House. MR. CHAffiMAN: Committee proceed. Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a meas ure to amend The Attorney-General's Act by providing, among other matters, for the prepara tion and printing of a revision and a consolidation of the statutes of the province. The Honour able the Attorney-General. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, this is largely self-explanatory.

The only difference in this statute from the one that was passed I believe in 19 49 preceding the 1954 revision, is that the

17 00 March 16 , 1967 (MR. LYON cont'd.) . • • . . revision has been underway now for some time.

The particular financial implications of this have to do with the printing which will be starting as soon as we can achieve that degree of progress in the consolidation and revision that will be necessary, and then of course ultimately the revised statutes are laid before a committee of the House for their consideration before they become in fact the revised statutes of Manitoba, and there is another element involved in this which we can discuss more at the second reading, which will be the idea of a loose-leaf system of consolidations for the province; in fact, that in turn means a continuing consolidation of statutes, which I think members will agree is a desirable thing.

MR GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose): Mr. Chairman, there certainly will be no disagreement on this side. Having asked the Minister I think every year now for some years when we might expect the consolidation, we are happy to see the resolution come forward, and certainly the loose-leaf one is one that we recommend highly. It will be undoubtedly a more costly arrangement than the present one. Does the Minister intend to sup ply this service - all the legal offices and so on - at a cost basis, on an annual fee, or what ,does he plan in that regard? MR. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (St. John's): Mr.

Chairman, of course we're all pleased that progress has been made to enable this to come to a fruition fairly soon. The loose-leaf idea has been discussed in the House and I think it received general approval. I wonder if the Minister would consider, or take into consideration, the suggestion that I made in the last -- I think a couple of years ago, that there be an index designed for the Lengthier Acts which would fit in with the Act rather than at the end of the book as appears now.

It will be much easier now with the loose-leaf arrangement and of course it means that the index would have to be kept up-to-date with the amendments, so there is a Little additional cost, but when you start working with these bulky, the Lengthy Acts, an index becomes vital and should be with the Act.

Now the other thought that occurs to me, which again needs consideration - and it too may prove more costly than it's worth - but I think consideration should be given to making the bindings large enough so that the regulations could be inserted with the Acts because -- I don't want to go into the question of Legislation by regulation or anything like that, but the fact is that •... A MEMBER: Why not? MR.

CHERNIACK: Well, I don't want to take the time 'of the House to repeat what we've said, but the fact is that the regulations in many cases are such a vital part of the Act that it would be well that they were bound together in this loose-leaf fashion, and I think what would be necessary is that the binders be large enough, so designed that they could hold the regula tions as well. And finally, may I ask whether a job of this type is let out on tender or whether it's handled in a different fashion by the government? MR. SIDNEY GREEN (Inkster): Mr.

Chairman, my honourable friend the Minister of course knows that every Lawyer in town certainly welcomes this type of revision and consolida- . tion, and I'm particularly impressed with the suggestion that there will be some type of Loose Leaf service, I P,on't know whether any other provinces are now operating on that basis. The Attorney-General is nodding his head so I assume that they are. The type of service, loose leaf service, with which I am particularly acquainted is the C. C.

H. service which is so handled as to keep the people who employ it continually up-to-date with all of the recent amendments, and I think that the time that will be saved and the errors that will be prevented in making cita tions of statutes before the Courts and in other places, would certainly justify the expense, and I must suggest, Mr. Chairman, that it will be a savings to the community not merely to the Legal profession. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, if there are no other questions •.•.• MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): I have one, Mr. Chairman.

It seems that my two lawyer colleagues have indicated that this might facilitate the operation of their offices a lot better than it happens at the present time, and it would save them time and energy. The indications are that this may be a little more costly than. the pres ent system so naturally that raises a question in rp.y mind as to whether or not my honourable colleagues, being in the business of law, will reduce their charges to we people who have to rely on them from time to time, due to the fact that they won't have to spend the hours Looking into the statutes like t�ey do at the present time. MR. T.

P. HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): Mr. Chairman, for the information of the Hon ourable Leader of the NDP, we wipe off our charges after two years. But I wish to thank the

March 16, 1967 17 01 (MR. HILLHOUSE cont'd. ) Hgngurable Attorney-General for the announcement he has just made. There is one question which I'd like to ask and that is this: would the loose-leaf statutes have the same official recognition in Court or would it just have the same status in Court as an of fice copy of

an Act? In other words, you would have to refer to the bound volume as the authen tic legislation. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, I believe it was the Leader of the Opposition who asked about the provision of loose-leaf fillers and so on to legal offices. That is a procedure that has not been worked out as yet. All that we 're agreeing to in principle thus far is the loose leaf system as a principle, and the administration of it has not been worked out. I dare say that there would be a charge, however, for this extra service. The suggestions by the Honourable Member for St.

John's are worthwhile and perhaps when we get into Committee when we have the Revising Officer and the Legislative Counsel there, he would reiterate those suggestions - as I will in the meantime to them - because I think they have some merit. As to whether or not the loose-leaf system would be merely an office consolidation or would bear the stamp of approval of the Legislative Counsel as being in fact the revision, I couldn't answer definitively at the present time.

My impression is, how ever, that under the continuing system of revision which will be brought forward in this Act, that the loose-leaf amendments will have the authority of being revised statutes rather than just office consolidations. That, however, is only an impression. We can correct it at second reading or in Committee. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the Minister may have said it but I missed it if so. Did he tell us when he expects the consolidation to be completed? MR. LYON: I can't give a firm date.

I've been asking the same question myself of those charged with the responsibility, and it seems that each year when I ask the question I get an answer that it's one year later than the year that I asked it in, but they are working apace now. The Revising Officer is the former Legislative Counsel, Mr. G. S. Rutherford, and he has been at it now for three, four years and has been doing some rather large Acts. When we get into Committee he will be there and can tell us what progress he is making. There was one other question in connection with the letting of contracts.

This is a mat ter, of course, that is handled by the Queen's Printer in the ordinary fashion, subject to their rules in that regard. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I'd be permitted one additional que,stion that I overlooked. Is the aim to have the revisions made as of the year in which they are pub lished, or are we, say, accepting 1964 or '65 or 166 as the base year? In other words, is it a constant job that never ends or is there a finality planned for the first set of loose-leaf and then catch up on it? MR.

LYON: I wouldn't want to attempt to answer that again definitively until we get into Committee stage. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution be adopted? Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has adopted a certain resolution and has directed me to report same. IN SESSION MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthnr): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour- able Member for Springfield, that the report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. LYON introduced Bill No. 73,

an Act to amend The Attorney-General's Act. MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I would like to direct the attention of the Members of the House to the galleries on my right where we have 53 Grade 5 students from the Sherwood School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Borody and Mr. Baduik. This school is situated in the constituency of the Honotr able Member for Kildonan. On behalf of all the Members of the Legislative Assembly I welcome you all here today. Orders of the Day. HON. STEW ART E. McLEAN, Q. C. (Provincial Secretary) (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to table a Return to an Order of the House No. 47 on the motion of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition made March 9, 1967, and while I am on my feet, if I may reply to a question asked of me yesterday by the Honourable the Member for Neepawa-Gladstone, with respect to the photograph in the annual report of the Manitoba Telephone System. This photogi-aph was taken on March 6, 1966 , and it shows a snow -

1 702 Mu-ch 16, 1967 (MR. McLEAN cont'd.} • • • • . - whatever they are called - snow toboggan adjacent to Pro vincial Trunk Highway No. 11 three miles southeast of Pine Falls. By an examination of the original photograph, which shows the Manitoba Telephone System truck on the travelled portion of the highway, it is easily discernible that the snow toboggan is well off the highway although it would have to be acknowledged that it would be probably within the boundaries of the highway as defined by the Highway Traffic Act.

Instructions were given when the new Highway Traffic Act came into force on the 21st of November 1966, instructions were given by the Manitoba Telephone System to keep all snow cruisers and snow toboggans off highways and provincial roads. I may report that the Manitoba Telephone System has eight of these vehicles. The common procedure is that they are taken out by truck, and sometimes when the men have to work away from the travelled roads they use snowshoes, and this mechanical device is one that is used on occasion in place of having the men use snowshoes. MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr.

Speaker, I take it then that it will not be necessary to put in the Order for Return that my honourable friend encouraged me to do yester day in respect to the number of second-hand snow toboggans that the Hydro or the Telephone might have for sale, and I also take from his remarks that they have eight in number and that they are operating within the law, the same law, that is, as he expects the other owners to respect. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Public Works.

Is it the responsibility of the City of Winnipeg Police, or of the Minister him self, to assure that there is no breach of the regulations relating to presence on the grounds in Memorial Park or on Memorial Boulevard or Assiniboine Avenue by any person walking or sitting between midnight and 7:00 a. m.? MR. Me LEAN: Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't like to answer that question without looking into it in some detail. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Spe!!Ker, before the Orders of the Day, may I direct a question to the Honourable the Attorney-G eneral.

I wonder if our honourable friend could indicate whether he has received any report, preliminary or otherwise, from the commission that was set up jointly by Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta to look into the question of food costs and con sumer affairs. MR. LYON: The answer is no, Mr. Speaker. MR. PA ULLEY: Can my honourable friend - a subsequent question - indicate when we may be hearing from the commission, and if the answer to this is no, to his knowledge at present, I-wonder if he would make enquiries as to when we may receive a report. MR. LYON: I understand, Mr.

Speaker, they are attempting to make an interim report some time this spring. I don't· know the exact date but that is my understanding. MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Attorney-General. There have been a number of questions put to him concerning teenagers and marijuana and glue, and I notice there were some arrests the other day on LSD. You promised us a report on this, I believe. When are we getting one? MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, I have asked the Department to look into this matter through the agencies of the various police forces in Manitoba.

I have seen no report back as yet. MR. SHOEMAKER: Before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to my honourable friend the Minister of Labour. How long must a person work to receive the four percent vacation pay on wages, and what is the specified time or does it vary with different companies? I can elaborate if you want me to, but I have had it said that if I hire a person for one day and they demand the four percent of their wages in lieu of vacation pay, that I am forced by law to pay it. Am I correct in my assumption? MR.

OBIE BAIZLEY (Minister of Labour) (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, if they have termi nated their employment after the one day, yes, that is true; they are entitled to four percent of their wages. And, Mr. Speaker, while I am on my feet, before the Orders of the Day I would like to reply to a question asked of me yesterday by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia: is the Manitoba Labour Board required to give a reason for their decisions. The answer is no. MR. MOLGAT: ••••• a subsequent question to the Minister of Labour.

The four per cent deduction or addition for vacation, then, is compulsory for even a single day's work. Are there any exceptions? That is, are there any government bodies, either federal or provincial, or any industries that are exempt from that, or is that a blanket coverage for all people who are employed?

March 16, 1967 17 03 MR� BAIZ LEY: Mr. Speaker, that is not a blanket coverage because there are exceptions where people work for fees and this particular type of service is exempted from the four per cent. MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emersor:1): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Education, and I am not going to make a speech but I have to clarify so that he can understand. In view of the fact that the referendum was defeated province-w ide but 14 divisions accepted it, there is a lot of confusion.

I had telephone calls when I was at home from my own district and even one this morning from Morris. They are wondering whether they should proceed with the next two steps, nomination of trustees and election,, and also they're confused, they do not know where to get their applications, the information, and I thought that if the Minister would be kind enough to make a statement today and maybe if the press would publicize it, this would clear up some of this confusion, because they feel that since it was defeated maybe it wouldn't be carried out. MR. JOHNSON: Mr.

Speaker, I'll make a prepared statement on this tomorrow .. Actu- . ally the machinery has gone forward as provided for under Bill 4 that came in before Christmas with respect to the election of trustees at the end of March, on March 31st, and I believe this has all been distributed but I would like to get a full statement to give to the House on the mat ter. MR. TANCHAK: Just another question. They are concerned that there are only four days left for the nomination of these trustees - if I am right, the 20th - and some of them are not aware that they have to do it or should do it. · MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St.

George): Mr. Speaker, l would like to address a ques tion to the Minister of Agriculture. Would he table a copy of the province's submission to the Federal Government with regard to the ARDA discussions or the agreement that is going to be signed, as I understand, in April? MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Minister of Agriculture and Conservation) (Rockwood-D:ierville) : Mr. Speaker, I don't believe that I would be in a position to do so until we have an agreement signed. MR. GUTTORMSON: A subsequent question: would the Minister consider tabling the submission after the agreement is signed? MR.

ENNS: I will take that question under advisement, Mr. Speaker. MR. TANCHAK: Mr. Speaker, a subsequent question to this, that was suggested to me. Is the government considering delaying this nomination of trustees and election at the present time? MR. JOHNSON: Not at the present moment, Mr. Speaker. MR. SHOEMAKER: I would like to direct a question to the Attorney-G eneral. I have ex hausted my right to speak on that Citizens Code Bill or resolution that is before the House and the specific question that I asked then and am asking now, is this: Is it possible to prosecute under the Consumers Credit Act?

I cited a case where it appeared that-- well. in fact your de partment said that weaknesses in it prevented prosecutions. Is this a fact or isn't it a fact? MR. LYON: I'll have to take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker. The honourable member is asking for a legal opinion. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Order for Return. The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. SHOEMAKER: In the absence of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Birtle -R ussell, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing, for each year since 1962, the following information for the Manitoba-H ydro Electric Board:

a) the number of meetings held

b) the date and time of each meeting

c) the duration of each meeting

d) the location at which each meeting was held

e) the names of the Commissioners attending each meeting

f) the amount of expenses, remuneration, allowance or payment of any kind made to each Commissioner for each year. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Birtle -R ussell, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing, for each year

17 04 March 16, 1967 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd.) • • • . . since 1962, the following information for the Manitoba Telephone System Board of Commissioners:

a) the number of meetings held

b) the date and time of each meeting

c) the duration of each meeting

d) the location at which each meeting was held

e) the names of the Commissioners attending each meeting

f) the amount of expenses, remuneration, allowance or payment of any kind made to each Commissioner for each year. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. PETER FOX (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Burrows, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1. The number of meetings held by the Labour-M anagement Review Committee (Wood's Committee) after June 1, 1966. 2. The number of meetings held by the Sub- committee after June 1, 1966 referred to on Page 9 of the annual report. 3.

The number of meetings held by each of the following committees after June 1, 1966, referred to on Page 10: a. Public Interest Disputes Committee. b. Labour Standards Committee. c. Labour Board Procedures Committee. d. Labour Injunctions Committee. e. Construction Industry Problems Committee. f. Legal Entities Committee. 4. What remuneration, if any, has been paid to committee members or chairman to date since its inception; to whom and what amounts. 5. What other costs have been incurred by the above committee since its inception. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Wellington, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: A. Which firms did printing for the Government in 1966. B. How much was spent by the Government with each firm. C. Were tenders called for in each instance? D. Was each firm a union shop? MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. M.."R. SPEAKER: Adjourned Debate on Second Reading, Bill No. 38. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MRS.

CAROLYNE MORRISON (Pelllbina): Because of my own personal views, Mr. Speaker, and in response to the many people, not only in my own constituency but from beyond its borders, who have expressed much concern regarding the proposed changes in the Liquor Act as outlined in Bill 38, I wish to put on the record my objections to any changes that will further liberalize our liquor laws. First of all, I will deal with 'the

section that proposes an extension by one hour of the closing time in all types of licensed premises except where the Saturday midnight rule would apply. I find it impossible to understand, Mr. Speaker, where there is anything to be gained in extending the time, where there is any need to give people another hour to consume alcoholic beverages when we already have a shocking number of fatalities on our highways caused by people who have stayed too long. Why should we ask for more?

It has been suggested that extending the time does not matter because when people have had enough to drink they will get up and go home. I wonder how many of us consider this to be a true picture. I can assure the honourable members that the number of folk in this category · is a very small percentage. The longer the time allowed, the longer the majority of people will linger, consuming more and more of the liquid refreshment, making their ability for driv ing home that much more impaired. We are told, Mr . Speaker, that it isn't realistic to think we can legislate people's lives, but this I fail to understand.

We have legislation which forbids a person to carry a loaded gun in a car._ We have legislation which decides .. the colour of clothing a hunter should wear when he is out hunting. We have legislation which governs speed limits, so wherein lies the differ ence? If the legislation proposed in the Bracken Report was considered acceptable at the time

March 16, 1967 1705 (MRS. MORRISON cont'd.) . • • . • it was brought in I cannot see the need for so many changes now. And let me say, Mr. Speaker, these are not just my own views; these are not just the views of the so-c alled church people; they are the views of many people who sit in the beverage room and the cocktail room, because many of these people have been interviewed and they do not think there is any need for extending the hours. I would tell you of a 'phone call I received during the weekend, Mr. Speaker.

Perhaps other members received the same call because it came from beyond the boundary of my con stituency. The gentleman making the call was very concerned about the extension of time for consuming alcoholic beverages because of the fact that parents bring their children into town to skate, to practice hockey, and to take

part in the recreations that are held in the larger centres, but when the children are ready for home one parent or perhaps both parents are in the beverage room and so the children have to wait until the hour of closing. So what is this extra hour going to do to these children? It's all very well to say this is up to the parents, but I would say to you, Mr.

Speaker, that just as children look to their parents for guidance, just as we look to the schools and the churches for guidance, so do people look to their government for guidance, and so I think the government should consider carefully when promoting any legislation that will increase the hazards of life. If anyone doubts the reasoning just ask the parents; ask our doctors and policemen who witness so many of the tragedies; ask our young people, because many of them have expressed opposition to these proposed changes in the Liquor Act. Let us not put stumbling blocks in their way. And now, M:.

Speaker, I would like to take a few moments to consider the proposal to serve liquor with food in licensed restaurants and dining rooms on Sundays .from 12:00 o'clock noon until 1:00 o'clock a. m. It has always been - and always will be - my opinion, my belief that Sunday is a day set apart, the one day out of seven which, for the benefit of mankind, was ordained to be different than the other six days of the week; but what is happening to that one day in seven? It is fast becoming just another day in the week. There are those who say if it is wrong to drink on Sunday it must be wrong to drink the other six days.

I would wonder, Mr. Speaker, where do we draw the line. I have already stated that Sunday is fast becoming just another day in the week, but there are still a few activities permitted on weekdays which are not as yet acceptable on Sunday. The line is getting thinner and thinner and the wedge is getting in further and further. There are six days in the week, Mr. Speaker, for people to have alco holic beverages if they so desire in restaurants and dining rooms. Let us leave the seventh day a little diff erent. Let us try to keep it a family day.

Let us consider those people who wish to be out and enjoy an atomosphere that seems in keeping with the day. Turning now to liquor advertising, Mr. Speaker, I find this proposal is causing a very great concern among people of all ages but especially among the parents of small children and young people. There are many parents who try to prevent alcoholic beverages from having any place in the home atmosphere, but they are deeply concerned that with advertising, especi ally on radio and TV, it will be impossible to continue this practice. I was interested, Mr.

Speaker, in the view expressed by the Chief of Police in Toronto who is particularly critical of beer advertising on radio and television which combines the idea of sports and fitness with beer drinking, because, as he states, the advertising is only one side of the story. It doesn't show any of the tragedies that can happen because of over-i ndulgence, and so it is that many young people at an impressionable age get a false conception believing that anything that pro motes their much-lov ed sport must be good. It seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, that the sole pur pose of advertising is to promote the sale of the product being advertised. I am firmly con vinced that nothing good can be gained by the advertising of alcoholic beverages. Let us guard against anything that will increase consumption. Before I leave this topic I would l�e to read a letter I received this morning, which is short and very much to the point. It says, "After reading the court cases in the Morden Times for one year, and seeing the empty beer bottles along every country road, we do not need any beer advertising in Manitoba. " And now, Mr.

Speaker, I will take time to mention just one more item in the proposed changes, and I refer now to the proposal that would permit possession of homemade wine and beer. Who, Mr. Speaker, is to control the alcohol content in the homemade product? Who is to control the age of the consumers in the home? Surely this is a backward step while we are supposed to be doing all we can to outlaw the bootlegging trade. Surely this will do nothing to ease the amount of welfare required for children from broken homes. And now, Mr. Speaker, I have merely scratched the surface in voicing my objections to

17 06 March 16, 1967 (MRS. MORRISON cont'd. ) • • . . . the proposed changes being contemplated in the Liquor Control Act. We are told these changes are needed to make our social life more up-to-d ate, that these changes are needed for our tourist industry. We are reminded that the Pan-A m Games are being held in Manitoba. Concerning the Pan-Am Games, Mr. Speaker, they last only a short period, two weeks I believe, and I would believe that the athletes would not be im bibing too heavily if they are going to give their best performance, .which I am sure they will want to do.

Regarding our tourists, we surely have other incentives to offer them in our beautiful cities, in our beautiful province, and I know that many of our tourists, especially from south of the border, have enjoyed their vacation in Manitoba because our social laws had a few re strictions, provided a more relaxing holiday for them, and they cannot understand why we would wish to change them. Now, in closing, Mr. Speaker, I would urge that before any sweeping changes are made in our li quor laws the time be taken for a thorough study. I think this is necessary in order to assess what is best for our province.

I would urge also that, in view of the excess liquor profits, thought be given to increased grants for promotion in the field of alcohol education. I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that the government would give serious thought to these suggestions. Thank you. MR. DOERN: .•••. a question. I'd like to ask a question regarding closing, the exten sion of hours which is asked for in this Bill. Do you think that people necessarily drink up to closing time, or do you think that they also stop drinking in the sense of "for the evening" when the bars close? Would you care to comment on that? · MRS.

MORRISON: They drink up till closing time, most of them. MR. DOERN: But they also stop drinking. In other words, when the bars close there's no more drinking done by most of these people? Can 1t they drink in their homes and so on? MRS. MORRISON: I think that most of them, Mr. Speaker, would. decide to go home then. MR. AL BERT VIELFAURE (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, if nobody else wishes to speak I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Hamiota, that the debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER: Moved by the Member for La Verendrye, seconded by the Honourable Member for ..... · MR. M. E.

McKELLAR (Souris- Lansdowne): ••••• if it's all right with the honourable member, yes; Well Pm glad the honourable members across the way are very anxious to listen to me because I know there's another subject they'd like to listen to me too. First of all, Pm going to instruct the members Pm going to vote against this Bill on second reading, and for many of the reasons that the Honourable Member for Pembina has already illustrated in her excellent speech that she delivered to you just now. Being an insurance agent, which I always like to remind you, this is a great problem.

And it hasn't got to be expressed to us in no uncertain terms that alcohol and cars don't mix. Every day in the papers we read where maily accidents have happened and for those of us who live along No. 2 Highway we have read many times during the past few years when people have been killed due to the effects of alcohol. I think this fall when I was coming in to Winnipeg a serious accident happened where four people were killed due to the effects of alcohol, leaving many members of the family left to look after themselves.

I'd like to show you, too, how many people that have written me and this is -- on some of those pages as many as twenty or thirty people's names, which proves one point: that this is the first time that I know of, that people have really risen to the occasion where they realize that the point has come where they have to stand up and be counted on the changes in the Liquor Act, and the people in Wawanesa and Glenboro district who have written me have expressed in no uncertain terms their feelings on this very important subject. MR. DOERN: How about the sales tax? MR.

McKELLAR: If the honourable member would keep quiet and let me go on with my work he'd be a lot better off. He'll get a chance to speak on liquor yet. But this is what I think in the rural areas and I say when -- maybe the Attorney-General was right the other day; when we're elected we're supposed to, in establishing the laws of Manitoba we're supposed to look at the province as a whole. And I, in my constituency, have three cocktail lounges and I don't imagine there's another rural member in Manitoba that has three cocktail lounges who will be affected by this Act.

While I imagine that they won 1t be very happy, I have no concern for them at all. I'm concerned only for the people who I represent and for myself. And in turn I'm going

March 16, 1967 17 07 (MR. McKELLAR cont'd.) • • • • • to vote against this Bill. I feel that the hours are sufficient as they now stand, not only for the rural people but for the city people too as well, because if they can 1t get drunk in the time that's open now, God help them. I don't know how many hours it takes. Furthermore, everybody's talking about the cost-price squeeze. Well you sure don't make any money in a beer parlour, at least I haven't saw the man yet that ever made a dollar in the beer parlour.

All you do is spend dollars, and also at this time we are now consuming more dollars in alcohol than we're spend ing on education, and for every taxpayer that should mean something. Around 70 to 80 million dollars of people's money in the Province of Manitoba is being spent on alcohol, and I think it's a sorry day when we consider alcohol more important than education.

Also, in the refer endum, which was voted on in the Town of Sour is the other day, the editor of the paper brought to my attention that when a liquor vote in the Town of Souris was held not very many years ago, that 70 percent of the people went out to vote. And what happened the other day in the school referendum? Thirty -five percent of the people went out to vote. So you can see that people, they pay more attention to the alcohol or liquor vote than they do to the school referendum which involves every boy and girl in the Province of Manitoba.

But I think that we have to take a second look at ourselves and I hear so many stories about people in the United States having all the -- they're wet from one end of the United States to the other. I'd like to tell the people here that they're not all wet. In fact I can take you to a lot of states down in the southern United States that're all dry. In fact the State of Texas is one - where the President of the United States comes from. They are all dry. Georgia, Alaba.ma, a lot of those, they don't have any open bars.

Sure they go to the hills, sure; that's quite true; but they don't have any open bars like we do in Winnipeg here and other parts of Manitoba. And another thing, on Sundays there isn't an empty pew in the churches down there either, and I can tell you there's a lot of empty pews in our churches because some of them don't sober up for the church service on Sunday morning. Yes, this is true. This is true. The Honourable Member for Elmwood mentioned that, that his voters don't sober up until Sunday. They go on drinking all night long. But I think that we've got to make a stand here if we 're going to ..•. MR.

DOERN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. The people of Elmwood neither drink more nor less than the people of any other constituency. MR. McKELLAR: Well, I don't know about that but you said they didn't go honi.e; they didn't go home to bed. MR. DOERN: I never said that. MR. McKELLAR: You did. You read your speech.

But I think for these reasons adver tising, I hear -- goodness knows, we got a book on our desks today advertising tobacco, and if you only read this - and I did read this -the many reasons that advertisers try to appeal to their consumers by many -- if you read this, this book, I think it will illustrate the appeals that advertising do to the public, and while I realize that people here get Channel 12 thrown at them morning, noon and night, we in the western part of the province do not have Channel 12 to be concerned about.

We've got to be concerned about the one channel only, which we do not get that, and I can understand how advertising will tend to increase the consumption. This is the only effect that advertising would have anyway, and I think that we had better leave well enough alone. With those few words, Mr. Speaker, I know that I've been running around at all circles on this here, but I think that the people of Manitoba can pretty well buy all the liquor they can afford and I think that's the most important thing.

Let us not get to the point where we try to make everybody an alcoholic at the age of 25 or 30 and then have to look after him during his old age. So, Mr. Speaker, in closing I want to tell you again, I'm voting against this Bill on second reading and I hope many of the other meni.bers on the opposite side do likewise. MR. PHILIP PETURSSON (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, may I just ask the honourable member a question.

Did I understand him correctly to say that he was opposed to, or in favour of rather, increasing restrictions on drivers who had been drinking and so on, who are under the influence of alcohol or who have taken a drink? As an insurance agent you probably would be interested. MR. McKELLAR: No, I just -- what I was mentioning, the many problems that are at tached when a man is caught under the influence of liquor, which only an insurance agent can tell you, the problems that are attached trying to get back on the road again; not only the eost

17 08 March 16, 1967 (MR. McKELLAR cont'd.) • • . . . but the time that's involved in having his licence suspended, which amounts to many hundreds of dollars. MR. WATT: I wonder if the Honourable Member for Souris-La nsdowne would permit another question? How did the referendum go out at Souris on the liquor vote? MR. McKE LLAR: The same percentage as the education vote went. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Moved by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, seconded by the Honourable Member for Hamiota, that the debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR.

SPEAKER: Adjourned debates on second reading; Bill No. 56. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. EDWARD L. DOW (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, in speaking to the amendment of the resolution by the Honourable Minister of Treasury, and more particularly to the sub section (1), the regulations of Bill 56 be immediately made public, I am quite convinced, Mr. Speaker, that if the regulations were detailed, defined and set down for the members of the Assembly, that a lot of unnecessary debate would be eliminated, because at the moment there is a confusion as to what and how far this sales tax will cover.

I would like to for a moment put myself in the position of the various municipal organizations, hospitals, schools and what have you, in the province in taking a look at their budget for 1967 and taking a look at the fact: how much of this budget is going to have to be upgraded by the amount of sales tax? We do know that under the federal regulations there are some exemptions, particularly to hospitals, but on the Bill that we have before us it doesn •t set this out.

If you would take - and here again the exact figures are a little difficult to get, but from the municipal point of view in Manitoba over $20 million is spent yearly on what could be potential goods that could be taxable, and I'm thinking of various types of municipal equipment, of office supplies and what have you. And if you work this down to a basis of the tax on this, this is a million dollars that municipalities are going to have to set in their budgets through the pro vince, and so they're going to have to provide a tax on a tax to the same people.

This works out at a very easy figure, about half a mill across the province, and I would suggest, Sir, that the government should take consideration of exemptions in this regard. You say, "Well, what else does it take into consideration - purchase?" I noticed in the paper the other day Metro, for one, on the purchases of buses which cannot be delivered until after the first of June. This is a figure of something of $55 , 000, and so on we can keep going, and all of this adds up to increased cost to the taxpayer who is paying a tax on a tax.

I just ran down a list of stuff that is required in most of the communities for water treat ment plants. There is no provision that I can see in the Bill for it and it runs into a sizeable sum of money in these utilities. For instance, the various articles that they use: chlorine gas, fluoride capsules, lime, alum, liquid carbon; and you know, Mr. Speaker, there is provision made in the Bill that fertilizers for farm use would be exempt, but believe it or not, fertilizers must be used in utilities in the handling of lagoons, and will this be exempt?

Now, all of these figures come up to a point that it is disturbing to municipal people in regards to setting up their budgets, and I think we could get away from a lot of confusion if the Department would set up the regulations, make them public immediately, so that the people that were in the position of setting up their tax budgets - which they have to do very quickly now - and so we haven't got it, so what do we do? Project for it or wait some undetermined time until it is made available.

You know, reference was made just a few days ago in regards to the reference of this Bill to Committee of Law Amendments, and it was very interesting to read the Carter Commis sion. Quite a lengthy paragraph was established on the recommendations to the House of Commons, and in effect, Mr.

Speaker, they say this, that no imposition of taxes should be de clared in the House of Commons until the opportunity has been given to the public to discuss this with the government, and I believe this is a sound principle that I think that we in Manitoba should take this into consideration and I believe the amendment is good.

It's what the public can discuss in regards to a tax that is revolutionary in Manitoba, and I would hope that this House would pass the amendment and let the public discuss this five percent tax in the commit tee, and let's have a look at the regulations so we get away from the confusion that has beset a lot of the people that are looking after budgets of taxation in other fields. MR. RODNEY S. CLEMENT (Birtle -R ussell): Mr. Speaker, I wish to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Gla.dstone, that the debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER: Moved by the Honourable Member .•... '

March 16, 1967 17 09 HON. GURNEY EV ANS (Provincial Treasurer) (Fort Rouge): could ask that an opportunity be given to any other member who wishes to speak, to speak at this time. I have not been pressing the debate forward. Pm sure the honourable members would not wish to use delaying tactics to cause embarrassment in this matter. It's a vital concern to me to get a massive administrative machine together, and I' m sure the honourable member would not object to somebody else speaking if they're prepared to do so at this time. MR. CLEMENT: Mr.

Speaker, I sat still for a few seconds to see if anybody was getting on their feet before -- I have no objection. This is right. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable the Attorney-General. Bill No. 44. The Honourable the Attorney-G eneral . MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I adjourned this in order that I might have the opportunity of getting some opinions upon one or two points that were raised by honourable members opposite.

I' m sorry that the Honourable Member for Selkirk is not in his chair because he did raise a question concerning the constitutionality of the powers of the Clerk.

This is a very valid point because the power that is conferred on the Clerk of the County Court under this Act is a new power but it is one that the law officers of the Crown feel is a discretion which can be conferred upon the Clerk, and the object, of course, is to provide that degree of flexibility which was not in the former Garnishment Act, so that the law can be made in a sense to suit the particular case rather than the case having to follow within a particularly rigid mould as was the case before.

In any ca.Se, we quite appreciate the point that he has raised; we feel that it is within the power of the Legislature to confer this power on the Clerk; and if further opportunity to discuss it is required we hope to have at least one or more members of the Committee of the Manitoba Bar Association who sat and considered this matter present at Law Amendments when the Bill is considered, and they may be able to give us some further enlightment on it. · The same comment would apply with respect to the discretion that is given to the Clerk under the Bill to release garnishment orders.

I don't know if my honourable friend from Selkirk dealt with that point particularly, but this is a similar type of discretion of where the vires might be questioned, but again I suggest that we can discuss this in more detail in the Committee where we will have .one or more members of the Manitoba Bar Association present who gave the matter their consideration. A question was raised by the Melnber from Selkirk concerning board and room. This is six of one and half a dozen of the other.

We feel, having regard to the administration of the former Garnishment Act, that probably it does not clutter up the administration as much as it would if we were to include board and room as an item that is exempt. We have no strong feeling on the matter, however, but we feel that the Act in its present form is perhaps the fairest to both the creditor and the debtor, having already taken into account the fact that the statutory wages would be deducted.

I think the Member for Selkirk also raised a point concerning the fluctuation in exemp tions, that a person with few dependents might be getting greater exemptions than a person with more dependents. I think the only flllSwer to this is that a person with more dependents and less exemptions can always apply to the Clerk of the Court to have these exemptions in creased, and this gives an example of the flexibility that we're trying to build 1,into the Act, and this is the only way that an individual with a few dependents could have gotten the greater exemp tion.

The right to have the exemptions altered, as he v.-ill notice, is universal. This applies to both the creditor and the debtor under the Act. And the principles on which the clerks might vary the exemptions might apply to certain individuals but not to others, and that's why again I stress the question of the elasticity of the provision. The inequality does not arise from the legislation but will arise, of course, if there is any at all, because of the mode of determina tion, and the inequality would not in all probability be reduced by giving any discretion to judges rather than to clerks.

The Honourable Member from Lakeside raised a point in connection with the exemption that is provided in one of the sections of the Bill for Members of the Legislature, and we had this looked up to see how long this had been a part of the law of Manitoba and why, because in the redrafting of a statute like this, the general tendency is just to put in the provisions that have been common before and in which there is to be no change.

The Act - the old Garnish ment Act - in exactly the same wording -- it's been the same since 1952 -- there was some change in wording in earlier Garnishment Acts but the section, the substantive part of the section, was very much the same. It was first put into garnishment legislation in 1888 in this

171 0 March 16, 1967 (MR. LYON cont'd. ) . . . . . province. They did a little bit of research to find out what the de rivation of it was because I'm a great be liever in not tearing down a fence until you know the reason why it was put up in the first place. They went back to 1888 and they found the first appearance of this exemption provided to members of the Legisl ature in that year.

Members of Parliament, of course, of Great Britain and Canada have certain privilieges, and among these privileges are the rights not to be subpoenoed and a number of other rights that are com monly and well -known within the Legislature , and all of these re late primarily, of course, to the paramount duty of the member being to serve the Assembly while the Assembly is in ses sion. And about the only re ason that we can conjure for the putting into the Act of this

section in the first instance would be that, depending on the mode of payment in those days, if a member were to have -- coming from a distant part of the provinc�, of course in those days by ox cart or whatever mode of travel, perhaps railway - if he were to have his means of sub sistence garnished while he were in the Leg islature it might well prevent him from maintain ing his room and board or his lodgings in the city, thereby having to go back to his farm or to his home in the country or wherever he came from, thereby defeating the main principle, of course, which was to keep him to permit him to serve his paramount responsibility in the Legis lature.

But, as I say, that is only specula tive on our part as to why it was put in and it's a long way of getting around to saying that we really today can't see - and I agree with the Honourable Member for Lakeside; I can't see that the same, necessa rily the same justification exists for it, but it has been a part of the fabric of the law for some 80 years, I guess it is now, and that if there is strong opinion on the matter in the Committee we're quite prepared to consider an amendment to it. There is another point that I should mention to the House, Mr. Chairman.

I think this Bill plus two others that have previously been under consideration and which are connected with these new changes in post-judgment proceedings, provide for .their coming into force upon Royal Assent. The administrators in the Department te ll us that this shouldn't be changed and put into, the Bills brought into force on proclamation, and I will be moving such an amendment when we get into Law Amendments stage. I co=end this Bill to the House for its approval. MR. SPEAKER put the ques tion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 58. The Honourable Member for Inkster.

MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to let this matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 65. The Honourable Member for Se lkirk. MR. HILLHO USE: Mr. Speaker, I have no objection to the sections as they appear in the present Bill, but there are two matters in respect of the Metropolitan Winnipeg Act that I would like to say a few words. The first one was dealt with the other night by the Honourable Member for St. John's in respect of the pl anning powers of the Metropolitan Corporation. I think perhaps he agrees that Metro should have juris diction in these matters .

I agree that they should have jurisdiction in these matters but at the same time I feel that by reason of the fact that they can say to municipality A, "The use of the lands in your municipality can be re stricted to residential purposes, " and to municipality B, "You can have industrial use and other use s, " they are discriminating against municipality A in respect of the revenues that that municipality could receive from taxation.

Now, I appreciate the fact that with the new Foundation Program and educational grants that that disparity, or perhaps that discrimination, fairly largely disappears, but under the new Foundation grants, the nine mills and the 33 mills, leaves intact at the municipal leve l the right to impose business taxes, and business taxes can be a fairly large source of revenue .

Now when the Committee , Greater Winnipeg Investigating Committee, was studying the ques tion of municipalities and school districts, they came up with this suggestion and I quote from Page 211 of their report: "The question arises whether it is equitable that the residential property owners of a particular municipality should be the exclusive beneficiary of the muni cipal revenue contributed by any business firm located in that municipality. In a metropolitan area a large number of municipalities exist in cl ose proximity.

It may be fairly argued that the municipal revenue contributed by a business firm should be allocated among all of them and should not go exclusively to that municipality in which it happens to be located. The firm may be responsible for additional costs in other municipalities. For example, its employees may live in other municipalities so that the latter must bear the cost of educating children, and in emergencies give social assis tance to employees' families. Heavy traffic to and from the firm may pass through other municipalities, raising their costs of street maintenance and traf fic control. "

March 16, 1967 1711 (MR.

HILLHOUSE cont'd. ) Now this Committee did recognize that inequality that could arise through restr icting the use of lands in area municipalities in a metropolitan area, and I think that that inequality now becomes more apparent that Metro is exercising exclusive jurisdiction in planning, and thus restricting the right of res idential areas to the revenues which otherwise would be available to them if they could attract industry and business within their boundaries, and for that reason I think that some serious thought and consideration should be given by this House to evolving a system of taxation in the metropolitan area which would bring about greater equity among all of the area municipalities within those boundaries.

Now, I know there are various suggestions that have been made of making, say, a metropolitan school district out of the whole metropolitan area, and of giving to the Metro government the full powers of all financial matters in that particular area. Now I'm not urg ing the adoption of any one of these alternate methods but I do say this, that sooner or later we will have to come to grips with this question and evolve a solution which will be satisfactory and equitable to all of the citizens of the metropolitan area.

There is one other matter with which I would like to deal, and it arises out of the Metropolitan Act, and I consider that the Act in its present form is most unjust and the matter to which I refer is this. In an election to the Metropolitan Council, the area municipalities must give to the Metropolitan Council the right to use their elec tion machinery and el ection of ficers .

The Metropolitan Council is required to pay certain costs of that Metropolitan election, but they are not required to pay any portion of the costs incurred by a municipality if that municipality's municipal elect ion is held at the same time as the Metropolitan election. Now I read to you from the Metropolitan Act,

Section 18, Subsection (4) , in which it says: "In each el ection following the first election, the costs and expenses incurred in the provision of elec tion material and in counting votes, together with other expenses lawfully and properly incurred by the metropolitan Returning Officer for the purpose of elect ion, shall be borne by the cor poration, but the corporation shall not bear any portion of the cost of any municipal election that may be held at the same time as an election of a member of the Metropolitan Council.

" Now you would think by reading that Subsection (4) that it would be implied that if no municipal elec tion were held at that time, that Metro would pay to the municipality the costs incurred by that municipality in holding an election for Metropolitan office in that municipality, but such is not the case; and that implication too is carried out by Subsection (5) of the same section, where it says: "Where a dispute arises between the Corporation and an area munici pality in respect of the allocation of costs between the Corporation and the area municipality, incurred -- and this is the pith of the whole sect ion, "when a municipal elec tion is held at the same time as an elec tion of the members of the Metropolitan Council, either party may appeal to the municipal board to decide the matter and the decision of the municipal board is final and binding." Now the point that I want to make is this, that where there is no municipal election held at the same time as the Metropolitan election, a municipality is required under the provisions of the Metropolitan Act to provide the elect ion machinery in that municipality for the Metro elec tion which is being held in that Metropolitan ward, but there is nothing in the Act which makes the Metropolitan Corporation liable for the cost incurred by the municipality in holding that election.

Now, just recentl y in a certain municipality in the Greater Winnipeg area, all members to council were elected by accl amation, and under the Municipal Act, when nominations cl ose the Ret urning Officer declares el ected those individuals who had filed nomination papers and elects them by acclamation.

Now in that particular municipality it was not necessa ry to hold a poll, but there was an election for the Metropolitan Council, and under the Act that munici pality had to provide for the Metropolitan Corporation the nece ssary machinery to take the vote of the Metropolitan electors in that particular ward, but Metro now refuses to pay that munici pality and quite frankly I think they are jus tified under the provisions of the Act. Now I am suggesting to the Minister that there should be an amendment brought into this

section at this Sessi on, making it retroactive too, stating that where no municipal election is held at the same time as a Metropolitan el ection, that the Metropolitan Corporation shall be liable for all costs incurred by that municipality in conducting the Metropolitan election within the areas of that municipality. Now I'm pleading with the Minister to bring in that amendment, and I'm not saying this is a threat, but I'm saying this is a warning that if the Ministe.r will not bring it in, if the government will not bring it in, I'm going to bring it in myse lf.

1712 March 16, 1967 (MR. HILL HOUSE cont'd. ) Now that's all I have to say regarding this Act but I think that the two points that I have raised are worthy of serious cons ideration, and I would certainly appreciate the government taking them both under advisement and I would be more than appreciative if the Minister would bring in the necessa ry legislation this Session, amending the Metro Act so as to make the Metropolitan Corporation liable for el ection costs under the circumstances that I have just out lined. MR. CHERN IACK: Mr.

Speaker, I have already spoken on this matter and I wonder if I could have permission to make a correction in something I had said. Just a correction, Mr. Speaker. I stated that when the Devel opment Plan or any other zoning pl an passes second read ing in council it must go to the Minister for approval. Then I said that the Minister may refer to the municipal board and then the municipal board may recommend it back, and I suggested that the Minister always accepts the recommendations.

The correction I wish to make is that under Sec tion 81 of the Metro Act the Minister, when rece iving the by-law and noting that there is an objection, has the choice of approving the by-law, rejec ting the by-law, or referring it to the municipal board, and the Act provides that when it is referred to the municipal board, then the board's decision is final and binding and the Minister gives up her authority upon re ferring the matter to the Board.

I am also under the impressi on - not the law, but the impressi on - that the practice has been that the Minister always refers to the Board those matters on which there has been an ob jec tion noted. I appreciate the opportunity I had to correct myself. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Member for Logan, that the debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote decla red the motion carried. HON. CHARLES H. WITNEY (Minister of Health) (Fl in Flon) presented Bill No. 68,

an Act respec ting Insurance of Re sidents of the Province in respect of the costs of Medical Serv ices, for second re ading. MR. SPE AKER pre sented the motion. MR. WITNEY: Mr. Speak er, I trust that the House will bear with me while I read what I have to say on second reading of this Bill.

I know that it is not as interesting to read what you have to say, but this is a yery important bill; some very important principles are involved; and I have had occasion recently to read some of my speeches in Hansard and I was rather surprised that one person could get the words of the English language so tangled up when trying to make an explanation or to espouse what a principle might be , so with the permis sion of the House, Mr. Speaker, I will read what I have to say. The provision of adequate medical care for the people of Manitoba has been the concern of the government since they assumed office.

Manitoba has been fortunate in having in the MMS oue of the best non-profit privately-operated medical insurance plans on the continent. In addition, a number of commercial medical insurance plans provide significant coverage in Manitoba, while Manitoba's own Medicare plan under the Social Al lowances Act has been mark edly successful in providing doctors' care for the thousands of people presentl y eligible and covered. All in all, about 70 percent of our population now has medical insurance.

In spite of this situation it is cl ear that a large number of those prese ntly uninsured, lack the means to provide coverage for themselves and a considerable number of those who are insured find the premiums hard to pay. The government took the stand, therefore, when appearing before the Royal Com;nission on He alth Services in 1962, that we need to improve our medical insurance arrangements so that they should be univ ersall y available and the premi ums within the range of the great majority of our people, but that the pl an should be a voluntary one.

Indeed, during the Provincial El ection of last year, the government continued to advoc ate such a policy provided, however, that it would be possible to implement it within the terms and conditions laid down by the Federal Government. The basic principle advocated in the field of social legislation was that government assis tance should be directed particula rly to those in need. The advantage of this plan is, of course, that the demand for money through the tax system is minimized and the funds are made available to those who most require assista nce.

This principle of need with its complementary voluntary aspect is the principle which the government advocated and would wish to see pro vided for in the federal statute. But however much the Provincial Government may support these two ideas, they can only be adopted if the Federal Government will agree. It does not seem practical for the Provincial Government to proceed on a plan which the Federal Government

March 16 , 1967 17 13 (MR. WITNEY cont'd. ) • . . • • is not willing to support. Federal co-operation, therefore, as has already been stipulated, is necessa ry to any voluntary plan re lated to need, and such co operation is unfortunately not forthcoming. Since the last Provincial El ection, . the Government of Canada has adopted a Medical Care Act. The Act states in

Section 3, and I quote: "A contribution is payable by Canada to each province in accordance with this Act, calcula ted for each year in respect of the cost of insured services incurred by the province in the year pursuant to a medical care insurance plan of the province. " However, in order to receive this contribution, certain criteria have to be satis fied by a provincial plan in respect of which contributions are payable and these are: The plan must be administered and operated on a non-profit basis by a public authority appointed and designated by the Government of the Province.

The plan must provide and be administered and operated so as to provide for the furnish ing of all services rendered by medical practitioners that are medically required, upon uniform terms and conditions, to all insurable residents of the province. The number of insurable residents of the province who are entitled under the plan to in sured services is not to be less than 90 percent of the total number of insurable resi dents of the province.

The figure of 90 percent is to rise to 95 percent after a period of three years, and the plan must not impose any minimum period of res idence in excess of three months, or in other words the pla n must be portable. In examining these four criteria, and in particu lar the percentage of insured residents required for federal contribution, it became obvious that a province must introduce a compulsory pl an.

This became further evident when the province was not permitted to include in the figure of 90 percent those people already enrolled in the Manitoba Medical Service or private insurance companies, pre sumably because they were not a public authority and could not meet the other federal criteria. The suggestion of the Province of Manitoba, supported by several other provinces, that initial enrollment should start at 80 percent was·n ot accepted by the Federal Government. Where then, Mr. Speaker, did this leave us ?

First, we could do nothing, but doing nothing was an extreme that Manitoba rejected in its submiss ion to the Royal Commission on Health Services in 1962. Doing nothing meant leaving in limbo a

section of the public that we felt to be in need of comprehensive medical ser vices coverage that they could afford. To do nothing would also mean that we leave on the table in Ottawa a federal contribution which is es timated to be $17 million annually. Secondly, we could develop a plan specific to Manitoba's needs. Approximately 70 per cent of the population of this province have some form of medical coverage through MMS, private insurers and social all owances medicare. Manitoba's greatest need was to provide a plan for the 30 percent without coverage.

Those in the 70 percent who had only limited cover age and probably more who might be finding their present efforts to provide insurance increas ingly difficult. Manitoba was prepared to institute such a plan if it was clearly estab lished that Ottawa would share the costs. This the Federal Government declined to do, If we moved without federal aid, costs of such a plan to the Provincial Treasury would mean mil lions of dollars annually.

Manitoba residents would be contributing to federal tax revenues in support of medical insurance plans in other provinces while at the same time providing for a provincial plan without support from these tax es. Our third position was that we could join the compulsory federal plan, benefit by the federal contribution of some $17 million annually and raise the other half by premiums . The province would pay the premium for those most in need.

Thus joining the federal plan under its terms and conditions is the only practical choice if we are to provide insurance against the costs of medical services for the people of this province regardless of age, health or financial circumstances. Thus to meet the federal criteria we believe that a compulsory plan must be introduced. The broad principle of the Bill before you is outlined in sec tion 3 where it says , "The in tent, purpose and object of this Act is to provide insurance for residents of Manitoba in respect of the costs of medical servi ces.

Insurance will be provided by a Crown corporation known as the Manitoba Medical Services Insurance Corporation, an agent of Her Majesty in the right of Manitoba. The affairs of the corporation shall be administered by a Board of not more than seven members appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. Two of the members shall be nominated by the Manitoba Medical Association. The Lieutenant-Governor-in-Counc il shall appoint a chairman and vice-chairman from the members appointed to the Board. "

171 4 March 16,, 1967 (MR. WITNEY cont'd. ) For financial provisions there is provided in sections 15 to 19, a Manitoba Medical Services Insurance Fund into which will be deposited the federal contribution, the provincial premium revenues and from which payments will be made for purposes of the Act and the corporation including costs of administration. The mechanism for coll ection of provincial funds is contained in sec tions 20 to 44.

It is a pl an based on the prepayment through premiums coll ected in a manner similar to the provisions of premium collection by the Manitoba Hospital Services Plan and Manitoba Medical Service. And in this connection, Mr. Speaker, it is in teresting to read what the Hall RoyaL Commission had to say about prepayments, and I quote here: "We be lieve that the procedures for the provision of medical services in Can3.da es tab lished by the medical care prepayment pl an operating on a service contract basis have demon strated their effectiveness and the possibility of low cost administration.

Their experience has enabled these plans to develop not only effective organization and efficient administration but also to evolve other features ess ential in the operation of a program of this sort. Thus they have efficient systems for enrolling both groups and individuals , for processing and pay ing accounts, for record keeping and for techniques to control over-utilization and over servicing. The Royal Commission listed some deficiencies in the prepayment concept such as inability of some people to meet premium levels.

But these will be overcome by this plan be cause the broad base involved should keep the premium leve l reasonable with indigents to be assisted by the province. To discuss the matter of financing further, the plan will be financed by federal contribu tion and provincial premium revenues with the province paying the premium for those consid ered to be most in need of such ass istance. The federal contribution will be based on a per capita payment calcu lated on 50 percent of the national average annual per capita cost.

The premium rate will be adjusted annually if necessa ry by the corporation with the approval of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council to the level required to meet the remaining cost of the plan, and as mentioned previously, premiums will be collected in the same manner as the premiums for the Hospital Services Plan and Manitoba Medical Service. Other principles contained in this Bill revolve around the medical professi on. The Royal Co=ission in its Health Charter for Canadians calls for a plan based upon free and sel f governing professions and institutions. These principles are provided for in this Bill.

The patient has freedom of choice of doctor; the doctor has the right to refuse service and the free dom of choice of participation in the pl an. The patient who chooses a doctor who has elected not to participate in the plan will be billed by the doctor and the patient may cla im from the plan the benefits prescribed for the service rendered. Fees in excess of the benefits paid under the plan will be a matter of mutual agreement between the patient and doctor. The plan will provide for a level of medical services roughly similar to that provided by the H. C. X Plan of the Manitoba Medicai Service.

This includes provision for services of a legaliy qualified medical practitioner while an insured or dependent is a registered and ad mitted bed patient or in-patient in a public general hospital or extended treatment hospital. The range of services provided includes: medical services, surgical services - including serv ices of assista nt surgeon when neces sary, services for treatment of fractures and dislocations , burns and lacerations, maternity service s, services of anaesthetist when surgery or maternity is covered, services of consultant when necessary.

The plan also includes this full range of services when provided out of hospital at the patient's home or at the physician's office: Medical treatment including immunizations, in jections, allergy care, medical examinations and tests including basal metabolism test, heart tracings, brain tracings, et c. , Laboratory and X-rays are all included when rendered in a physician's office. In other words the program will ensure against the costs of medical serv ices in home , office or hospital apart from those covered by some other government program.

Section 36 of the Act provides that the Corporation with the approval of the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council may enter into an agreement with the Manitoba Medical Association re specti ng all matters relevant to a

schedule of fees to be paid by the Corporation to medical practitioners in respect of medical services rendered to insured persons and the term and conditions relating to the application of the

schedule of fees and the methods of payment to medical practitioners of benefits payable in respect of medical services rendered to insured persons. This will have an important bearing on the premium level taking into account also the rate ofutiliza tion.Provision is also made for the establis hment of a medical review commit tee and delineation of its duties and functions. This committee in effect will review the patterns

March 16, 1967 1715 (MR . WITNEY cont'd) .... of practice of physicians and report any abnormalitie s. One further important principle is contained in this Bill in the last sect ion where we deal with other health service s. These are service s apart from medical service s and can range over the health field .

They will be added as benefits when the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council has the following assurances: First that they will be of bene fit to the public and the plan; sec ondly, that we can afford them in the sense that their provision will not raise the premi um levels beyond the reach of the maj ority to pay; and thirdly , that the Federal Government will recognize them in the plan and contribute to them .

This latter point on other health services is not clear in the sub-cla use of The Federa l Medical Care Act, as is the Fed eral Government's terms and conditions with respect to financial contribution to the costs of other health service s. Costs of such other health services if and when they are covered will be kept separately so that in much the same as cost accounting their rela tion to the cost of the main purpose of the Act, the provision of insurance in respect of the cost of medical services by medica l practitio ner s, may be ascertained .

Provision is made in this Act for the corporation to negotiate with the Manitob a Medical Service for its facilities and staff to retain as much as pos si ble its admini strative mechanism and more important, the knowledge, experience and goodwill of its staff for the benefit of the people of this provin ce. The Manitob a Medical Service was incorporated in 1942 as a non profit organiz ation and as of January 1st, 1967, provides medical cover age for some 589, 000 " persons in the provinc e.

Manitoba Medical Service has won a well deser ved reputation far and wide for its policies and admini stration and has provided for the people of Manitoba and made availabl e the most comprehensive coverage in Ca nada. It was initiated by the doctors of this province as a nonprofit organiz ation and has served the public and the doctors exceedi ngly well. We trust that it will conti nue to do so until it can be integrated with the Manitob a Medical Plan.

Its hard working, devoted offic ers and staff have provi ded a sound base for the implement ation of the Manitoba Medical Service Plan to the benefit of every man, woman and child in Manitoba and I take upon myself, Mr. Speaker, the privileg e of paying tribute to the Manitoba Medical Service and expressing the appreciation of the people of the provinc e. We are providing an insurance agai nst medical costs for all in this province. The effec tiv eness and value of this plan will depend to an overwhe lming degree upon responsi ble usage of the plan by patient and doctor alike.

Everyone has a. very important bea ring on this cost for maintena nce of good he alth and prudent use of the plan should keep costs down. We esti mate that for the first year the total cost for comprehensive medical services will be $35 mill ion. This figure does not inc lude any costs rela ted to other he alth servi ces. As with the Hospi tal Services Plan the provision for parallel insurance is not permissi ble under this Act. Mr. Speaker, this legis lation is another large step taken in the re alm of social servi ces.

Some will argue that it is not necessary at this time while others will argue that it is long overdue. Very few argue that comprehensive medical services should not be made avai lable to all irrespec tive of their age, fina ncial circumstances or present infirm ities of one type or another. The method of provision of such service .is the - debatable point. The debate may go oa in the House for some time but we must not overlook these points. The program will ensure against the cost of doctor's services in home, offic e or hospital apart from those covered by some other government program.

The program will extend this comprehensive coverag e to the 30 percent of the population who jo not presently have it. The program will also extend its comprehensive coverage to those in the 70 percent of the population who presently do not have such comprehensive coverage. The large ma jority of those with -adequate comprehensive coverage should benefit from reduced premiums and in particular those who do not benefit from the lower premiums present in group covera ge.

Doctors in the province will be free to practice where they wish, accept whom they wish and .if they so choose may elect to practice outside the plan.

It is our sincere hope that the introduction of this program will help in improving the health of all of our people and it is also our hope that those fortunate enough to be able to presently afford adequate insurance cover age of this type or to be entirel y inde pendent of any form of insurance coverage will not condemn the plan but ra ther will see in it a method of in suring that those less fortunate will be able to avail themselves of services which hitherto may have been limited or even denied them. I think , Mr.

Speaker, that it is rather a matter of inte rest that this Bill is Bill No. 68 because the federal plan will c�me into affect on July 1st of 1968 and we will be ready to join the plan at that time. I noted the other day that there were some rather choice words directed to me for not having a plan by July 1st, 19 67. I might say that the Bill is No. 68 - not 67.

171 6 March 16, 1967 MR. MOLGAT: I wonder if the Mi nister would permit a question, Mr. Speaker , on two speci fic items of coverage ? Does this cover chiropractic services and optometrist service s? MR . WITNEY: Mr. Speaker, to answer I would be closing the debate and I '11 have to answer those at that time . MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Speak er, if no one else wishes to speak at this time I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell that the debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER pre sented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carri ed. MR. EV ANS: Mr.

Speak er, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Highwa ys, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Com mittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR . SPEAKER pre sented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Arthur in the Chair . COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: Depart ment of Highwa ys. Resolution 38 (

a) passed; The Honourable Member for Birtle- Russell . MR. CLEMENT: I understand the last time I spoke it appeared I don't need a micro phone - maybe we should cover this up . In ri sing to say a few words on public works -o r highwa ys, I will be as usual very brief and to the point . I notice that we have already used up 56 hours and 50 minute s of our time which would leave us, what ? - 23 hours and 10 minute s left to do about at least another 8 or 9 or 10 probably 8 more departments and so as I say I shall be brief.

I must say at the outset that I must congratulate the Mi nister on his brief statement yesterday; I want to say to him that I feel he is trying to be sincere and do his best in his department . He and I have not known each other too well for too long but I have been familiar with the Department of Highway s for some 17 or 18 years and it is one department that is rather dear to my heart being in the busine ss that I am in , highway s are very very imp ortant to the people of Manito ba.

I belie ve that to the best of my knowledge the maj ority of the staff of the Department of Hig hways are likewise sincere and hard-working men and women . They have .in this day and age a great deal of work to do, there are many problems and to build a modern highway today it takes a great deal of engineering and surveying.

I !mow that as usual the Minister of Hi ghways is always under great pressure and partic ularly last year; he was good enough to mention last evening that there was a consi derable amount of the program carried over from last year but I notice the maj ority of it that I was concerned about is on the green paper we have here - the program . It may have been that it was necessary to hold this work over; it may have also been, Mr. Chairman , I suggest that it was just acci dently elec tion year last year . However , politics is the name of the game and perhaps this may or may not have been the case .

I was particularly inter ested in a Sectio n of No . 45 highway . We have a beautiful high way from Russell straight through to Erickso n today; it is one of the better highway s in the province but it is still gravel. Last year I understand it was supposed to have had a base and asphalt surface treatment but somehow or other there just didn 't seem to be either the time or perhaps the money, but thanks to the Minister I see it's on here this year and I hope this is no reason for it not being completed .

There is also one further stretch of approximately 10 miles of No . 4 Hig hway running from Russell west to the Saskatchewan boundary that also has been completely constructed; it 's a beautiful hig hway but it is still gravel surfaced. Last summer it got a little treatment of - I got into trouble with this word before one time - calci mine - thank you, Sir �- and I would hope that rather than put any more calcimine on this road this year, --(Interjec tion) --ca lci um ? - calc imine - calci um - anyway let 's put a hard surface covering on it . Beca use, Mr.

Chairman , for years you could travel from Manitoba into Saskatchewan and you knew immediately when you were at the Saskatchewan boundary beca use the road went to piec es . Today, in some case it 's in the reverse . Coming from Yorkton to Russell we have a blacktop highway till you hit Manitoba; there we have a wonderf ul highway but it 's gravel and this is - thinking along the lines of the Honourable Member from Lansdowne, is it ? - the insurance people don't like the se gravel roads, they 're kind of hard on windshi elds .

However, I do hope -I notice it 's not on the estimate but I would respect fully reque st that if there's a little money left over and a little time this fall that this be added to your program .

March 16, 1967 17 17 (MR. CLEMENT cont 'd) ..... It is a very lengthy program , I' ve looked through it quite briefly .

The only other point I notice of rather intere st, that there is going to be a by-pass in a certain town in Manitoba and I 'm sure this is going to make the Honourable Member from Brandon happy because the people from that area for years have complained about making the additional run where if No . 10 highway had been straig htened out they could be at Clear Lake and their favourite golf course quite a little quicker - "quite a little quick er , " that doe sn't sound right but you know what I mean . I also notic e, Mr.

Chairman, that in the esti mate s, the No . 4 item, Const ructio n of provincial trunk highwa ys, provincial roads , related projec ts , constructio n of streets and the establish ment of metropol itan streets system is down by $2, 456 , 000 from last year . Well Mr. Chairman , this is kind of hard to agree to because in this day and age highway s are vitally important . I also notice that in the estimate s of welfare they've gone up $5 millio n . I think, Mr.

Chairman , that we should do everything in our power to try and - (I don't need the water) ..... try and build all the highwa ys, street s, thoroughfares that we can in this province . You carry on with the estimate s a little farther, Item No . 7, all of a sudden in Item No . 7, all of a sudden in Item No . 7 we are - well there 's a blank - but you look on the other side of the page and it says $1 1, 181, 000 . What happened to this $11, 181, 00 0.0 0? Well I had a slight recess from this legisl ature but I was here long enough to know that if you look somewhere you'll find these thi ngs . And , Mr.

Chairman , where in the world do you think I found it ? In last years estimate s under agriculture -u nder agriculture , Mr . Chairman . Is this just another sort of acc ident or did it sort of happen to be an elec tion year last year and that it could be that the Department of Agriculture needed a li ttle boost . I don't know, these things to me are kind of funny. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman , to you that this is not the kind of bookkeeping that this province want s.

Some 7 or 8 years ago the Honourable the Fi rst Minister of this province came floating in on I would say "Diefenb aker's magic carpet" and he 's been living in the penthouse suite of some ivory tower ever since and I would suggest to you Sir, if he doe sn't begin to look at the grassroots in this province once again that the foundation of this tower is already wilting away and that come another elec tion unless somebody smartens up somewhere the walls will collapse and he will need a darn good parachute to keep from hitting the ground very hard .

Mr , Chair man, I just do n't think that this is the way we should keep books; I know it 's not the way I keep books; no other busine ss would keep books where you can transfer from one to the other to make it look good . And as I say politics is the name of the game and perhaps this is the way they do thi ngs, but the pe ople are be ginning to smarten up to this sort of hoodwinking book keepi ng . What did they do last Friday ? This is common knowledge , I don't have to develop into this . In 1959 the estimates of this government were some $80 million; today they are $3 50 million .

And what have we got on top of this ? - another 5 percent sales tax to go along with it , to try and raise this money. And Mr. Chairman , revenue from highway s is some $4 8, 360, 000 and I think this is importa nt enough to point out. The revenue under our detailed estimates of revenue, the first one motor carrier license fees $2, 500, 000; automobile and drive rs license fees, $11, 300 , 000; gasoline tax $33, 400, 000; moti ve fuel tax $6 ,1 15, 000 - a total of $53 million coming in direc tly from these sort of taxe s that are related to highwa ys. And what are we spendi ng? - $4 8, 360, 00 0.0 0.

I suggest to you, Sir that if th ere 's any depart ment in this legis lature that should spend every dollar that it gets from licensing in this degree should be spent on highway s, it 's the Department of Highwa ys. And I wouldn't let the little Mi nister of Welfare , who at one time might have been in the automobile busine ss and is a salesman or was a salesman, get an extra $5 millio n for welfare when you go with $1 0 million le ss for highwa ys.

This doe sn't make sense in this day and age when everybody that wants to work in Manitoba today can work and can get a job; everyone of us in here could go out and get a half a dozen jobs tomorrow if we wanted them; we don 't need to have a welfare state with another $5 million tacked on to welfare . This to me is not right and I would sug gestly ask the Minister of Hig hways that he fight for his share of this money when he gets into his Cabine t.

Not only that , he 'll have to fight along with the few members he 's got behind him to do something for the school teachers of Manitoba or they'll be no fight left when the next ele ctio n come s. I want to suggest to you, Sir, that selling is part of politics and the Minist er 's job is to sell his colleagues on the idea that Manitoba wants highway s; - good highway s bring touri sts -

1718 March 16 , 1967 (MR. CLEMENT cont'd) ... .. this is common knowledge . Good hig hways facilitate the orderly flow of passenger traffic - this is vitally important in this day and :3.ge of the automob ile . Good hig hways are essential for our trucking transportation and believe me without high ways we are in trouble .

And all I want to say in conclusion, Sir, that I do wish the Mi nister of Highways all the luck in the world in getting all the money he can to build highway s beca use the future of Manitoba depends on the type of roads we have and I' m sure that unless he does this the prov ince is going to be in trouble; not that they aren 't already in trouble but they'll be in a darn si ght more if we don't keep up blacktopping and repairing the roads we have . With the se few brief remarks I want to take my seat .

I do feel that you have a tremen dous job before you; I do think that with the money avail able you will try and do your best, but from now ori make it a point to get all the money you can for highwa ys. Thank you. MR. PAULLEY: I wonder if my honourable friend would permit a questio n --(Interjecti on) -- I think possibly you will . I wonder, Mr. Chairman , whether the honourable member who has' just taken his seat would indicate whether he was giving his personal opinions or was this representing the party of which he is a member ? MR.

CLEMENT: I would like to inform the honourable gentleman, although he knows, that 99 .9 percent of the time s when I speak I' m speaking. for Rod Clement . MR. MICHAEL KAWCHUK (E thelbert Pl ains ): Mr. Chair :m:an, at the outset I must probably make the same statement that the last honourable member .did when it comes to the use of the ·' mike '. It so happens that this Mike could well do without a 'mike '.

However , I must also go on and point out to my honourable friend here , the Minister of Hi ghways, that I will not treat him to the same eloquent oratory that he is probably accustom.ed to from my predeces sor who was apparently also in charge of the Department of Highways even though from a diff erent group. At the outset , perhaps it might be appropriate to join with the Honourable Mi nister of Hig hways in also extending our good wishes to the untimely retirement of Mr.

Ge orge Collins and perhaps may I express at this time our appreciation to all the staff members both within the department here and the ones throughout the Pr ovince of Manitoba who provide our most essential services inso far as transportatio n is concerned even though the se services are per formed in a lot of insta nces in adverse weather conditio ns.

I regret somewhat that the Honourable First Minister is not in his seat beca use apparent ly he has made a statement during the campaign to the effect that this government has already provided a Twentieth Century Hig hway System and it was so,mewhat of int erest to me to find out just what his definition of that type of a highway system would be . In my opinion , Mr.

Chairman , it probably -- two-thirds of the century has already elapsed, but perhaps a. trunk highway system which is tota lly hard-topped and also a network whereby each and every village and town in this province would have the shortest possi ble route to its capital .

However , maybe he'll be back before I 'm fini shed. . , I perhaps just probably would like to also refer to the · constructio n of hi ghways that has taken place within the last six or seven years and it 's inte resting to note .that in 1961 approx imately $13 millio n were spent for highway constructio n and '62 had $12 million, then up to '65 just a year after the provinCial roads came into the pi cture we had an increase to about $25 millio n and of course this year we are down again to $23 million .

So I also sympathize with the Honourable Member for Bi rtle-Russell that though constructio n costs have increased it is very unlikely that we will be able to expand our highway network with a decreased amount appropriated for highway constructio n , and perhaps I can just make a few comments here in sofar as the highway s in the constituency of Ethelbert Plains are concerned.

I was just won dering whether the Honourable Minister could inform us, even though I' m happy to see all the constructio n that is going to take place on No . 5 here , and if he would just be kind enough to inform me where is this Dauphin By-pass going to be located. I understand it has been staked out twice previously and has there been a final decisio n made ?

I •m also happy to note that the continuation of No . 10 Highway will take place; as we all know, not having this extensio n to No . 6 north as we would like to see in the very near future , No . 10 Highway will have to serve the people of northern Manitoba and it is with great grati ficat ion that I note that there is an inten sive program planned for that extensio n of No . 10 Highway . However, I was just wondering how soon on his program will the people in Ethelbert Pla ins be treated to hardtop on No, 20 Hi ghway from Winni pegosis to Cowan .

Apparently last year there was a process co=enced as far as salt application was concerned and it was soon called off and since then there has been no definite word heard on that phase of the road. '

March 16, 1967 1719 (MR . KAWCHUK cont'd) .•... I would also probably like to bring to the attention of the Mi nister , apparently I was - with interest I noted in Hansard of March 23rd, 1964 , that he was trying to convey the message that he was not interested in public ity. However , since then he must have changed his mind because in this Order for Return as I have it here he 's been providing road signs and he calls them project information and I was just wondering wh at he meant.

Information insofar as the highway is concerned or perhaps insofar as he himself is concerned to familiarize himself with the rest of the province . It is worthy to note that perhaps this cost of $922.0 0 could have been better used in the constituency in which these signs are located and been far more beneficial to those citizens in that area. However, I would just like to devote a word or two to the No. 5 Highway between Dauphin and Gilbert Plains .

The first portion that was constructed earlier in 19 65 at a cost of approx imately $39, 600 and this last portion which was commenced last year the figure s work out to $6 9, 600 , an approximate increase of 40 percent .

Now to a lot of people in that area it is somewhat hard to believe that a 40 percent increase was neces sary whereby the construction of this road was greatly delayed and the contractor who had apparently the succes sful bid in, was somewhat reluctant even to pay the local contractors for hauling gravel at a reas onable rate and as a re sult of that the construction prolonged for a good number of additional weeks .

As a matter of fact, as the Minister knows, was not even completed at the end of the season , Although it might be true that we have highways with four lanes around the City of Winnipeg here and some other locations might have highways running one along the other so to speak; however, when you get down to central northern Manitoba we certainly do not have high ways which could be classified as Twentieth Century Highways .

Perhaps on a more construc tive basis, may I just suggest to the Minister that he give some extra consideration to 'yield' signs on these provincial trunk roads; most of them have a 'stop' sign, and as you probably know there isn't the type of traffic or the heavy traffic on these roads that warrant a 'stop' sign. I think in a lot of these cases where there 's a light flow of traffic a yield sign would probably be far more beneficial . And if he would be kind e�ough -- maybe I just haven't got the key to the numbering of these provincial road highways .

There is all kinds of numl;>ers used within a small area and if he would just probably be able to point out to me just what system was used, if any, I'd be able to follow the numbers through and he able to locate the location of the road by knowing the number of the highway� In view of the fact, Mr . Chairman, as I said, some of these roads are gettiiig more costly than ever before , I think I'll agree with the Member for Birtle-Russelit hat. the people of Manitoba are perhaps not getting full value for their road dollar.

May I just s.ubmit to my honourable friends that perhaps they take some steps and seriously consider .the public owner ship of more heavy equipment to commence road construction by governmerit crews as is being done with other pieces of equipment insofar as maintenance is concerned now. With those few remarks, Mr .

Chairman, I would just like to have his comments on that the First Minister isn't back here -- may I just ask the Minister of Highways to convey to the Honourable the First Minister when he starts promising that he relate to him the famous quo tation made by Abraham Lincoln when he said, "We must not promise what we ought not least we be called upon to do what we cannot." ' MR. HILLHOUSE: Mr .

Chairman, as the dentist said, "This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you." But I wish to move that Item 1 (a) - Minister 's Compensation-Salary and Repre sentative Allowance of $18, 000 be reduced to the level of the 1966-1967 appropriation of $12, 500 .0 0. MR. CHAIRMAN put the question, and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR. MOLGAT: Yeas and Nays, Mr . Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Call in the Members .

The motion before the Committee, that Item 1 (a) -M inister 's Compensation-Salary and Representative Allowance of $18, 000 be reduced to the level of the 1966-1967 appropriation of approximately $12, 500 , A counted vote was taken, the re sult being as follows: Yeas , 13; Nays 39. 'MR. CHAffiMAN: I declare the motion lost. The Honourable Member for Gladstone . MR. SHOEMAKER: I would like to move that the words , "and Repre sentation Allowance" be struck out of Item 38, 1 (a).

17 20 March 1 6 , 1967 MR. CHAIRMAN: I should point out that the motion now before the Committee was in cluded in the original motion by the Member for Selkirk. I rule the motion is out of order . Item 1 (a) -- passed. MR . DOUGLAS CAMPBELL (Lakeside) : What is the ruling? MR . CHAIRMAN: I ruled that the motion is out of order . It has been included in the motion by the Member for Selkirk. MR . CAMPBE LL: Yes, but this is a different motion, on a different matter . True , it's included if you take the sum but on the other hand it's a completely different motion in that the one is a lump sum

whereas this one strikes out "Representative Allowance" and it's a different matter completely. HON. DUFF ROBUN (Premier)(Wolseley): I really must say, Mr . Chairman, that I think if we look at this carefully it may well be argued that it is a different matter. The first motion covered the whole salary, it was true, including the representation allowance; but having lost that one are now attempting to get at a different aspect of the matter in the re pre sentation allowance and I, with respect would be inclined to say that it is a different motion . MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr .

Chairman, are you going to rule or ... .•• MR . CHAIRMAN: Well I have made a ruling on it but after looking at it again, probably the suggestion of the First Minister is corre ct, that it is a separate motion so I'll rule the motion is in order . All those in favour of the motion ••..••. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr . Chairman , I just want to make one brief comment and it will be the same as the one that I made before , and I hope that the House understands or can compre hend the import of the wording. Surely you can Mr .

Chairman, comprehend the import of it because we are not in this motion that is before the House wanting to take away a single dollar from my honourable friend. All we're saying is let's make it all taxable, that is, in simple terms, that's it . What we are saying is let's call the whole $18, 000 salary and let's have it all subject to tax . Now is that clear to everybody in the House ? It's clear . Okay, fine! I just wanted to make certain that everybody had it clear . MR. CHAIRMAN put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR . MOLGAT: Yeas and Nays, Mr . Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Call in the members . Those in favour of the motion please rise . I wonder could we· accept it was 13 ? - 13; opposed please rise . Same number ? - 39. I declare the motion lost. 1 (a)--passed .• •••• MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr . Chairman, ••..• MR ; CHAIRMAN: I think the Member for Gladstone was MR . SHOEMAKER: I just want to make some brief comments on the Minister 's salary. I have made a brief one now on the Minister 's salary and I suppose that I could elaborate on that end of it but my honourable friend the Member for St.

John's assured me that every single solitary per son in the House understood what - didn't you? Oh he said, he -h e unders tood it . But someone else said that they were not absolutely certain that it was not now taxable, the whole $18, 00 0.0 0. I wonder if the person that made that comment would care to elaborate because - and I think it 's in order to talk about the Minister 's salary on the Minister 's salary, Mr . Chairman.

What we are saying in the resolution was simply this , that we would have the whole $18, 000 taxable, rather than according to the order-in-council making it $1 5, 000 for salary and $3, 000 for tax free out-of-pocket expenses for my honourable friend to go home on the weekends, and stuff like that. We think that inasmuch as each and every member of the House has a tax free .. .•• MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . MR . SHOEMAKER: I'm talking on the Minister's salary . MR . CHAIRMAN: You're talking now on the motion that was just lost. MR . SHOEMAKER: Ye s, but we're still on the Minister 's salary. MR .

CHAIRMAN: That's correct. MR . SHOEMAKER: And I'm talking on the Minister 's salary. That's what I thought I was talking on. Was I not talking on the Minister's salary? I thought I was . But anyway as long as my honourable friend u:ilderstands or can comprehend the import of the res olution I guess there's not much dwelling on that anymore . But we still think that the whole $18, 000 should be taxable • Now in looking at this afternoon's Tribune headed " '6 7 work

schedule $23 million set for road program" I just want to elaborate a little further on what my honourable friend and

March 16 , 1967 172 1 (MR . SHOEMAKER cont'd) ...... desk mate the Member for Birtle-Russell had to say, that it is quite evident that in this Year of our Lord and the next that we are taking in far more money in revenues than we are going to spend and as the Honourable Member for Lakeside pointed out some time ago when gasoline tax was first imposed on the re sidents of Manitoba some 40 years ago - a little more than 40 years ago - one cent a gallon was put on to help, just help to defray some of the costs of maintaining the roads - about 1923 or thereabouts .

In 1923 I 'm assured that that is the year that it was introduced, that is the principle, the principle of taxing gasoline, the principle of using the revenue from the sale of drivers license, the principle for using the revenue from the license plates and so on, motive fuel tax, the principle was es ta blished in 1923 that the travelling public should pay some small portion of the cost of building roads and maintaining same, and surely we haven't divorced from that principle in this year .

I 'm certain that we should be developing the roads, particularly the provincial trunk roads at a faster rate than we are today. Now I don't know, Mr . Chairman, I don't know whether my honourable friends are still using as the basis for road building, this document that was tabled some 6 or 7 years ago en titled "Manitoba Highways Planning for Tomorrow," an engineering study. But it was tabled Mr . Chairman, when you were here, I'm sure , in 1961 - printed in December 1960 - and it was supposed to be the guidelines for all future highway construction in Manitoba until 198 0 , according to this .

And they even go so far as to advise all future Ministers of the Department as to the amount of money that is needed to be spent in every year from 1960 to 1980 . I know that the figures won't be up-to-date because as my honourable friend pointed out last night in his opening remarks , the costs are running away with them and so that if you're going to build as many roads as they propose and suggest in this document that should be built you '11 have to spend a whale. of a lot more money than the figures that are shown in this book - because this is now 6 or 7 years out of date.

But they call for - and I think I can find it here for my honour able friend, on page 7 of this document - surely he has it on the desk before him because this is the guidelines for all future construction. But they say that in order to catch up with a lot of the programs that you've got to spend something like $36 million a year on highway construc tion for the next, well from 1960 to 19 80. And according to the Tribune report we're only going to spend $23 million.

Now I don't know whether the $23 million that is referred to in the Tribune front page story is the cost of this program in total - and I'm referring to the green sheets that were laid on our desk last evening. I guess that the cost of this program is $23 million - am I right in .... MR . WEIR: No. MR . SHOEMAKER: I am not right? MR . WEIR: I don't know where you were when I was speaking yesterday. MR .

SHOEMAKER: Well where were the Tribune when you were speaking yesterday because they say -t hey say, or I understand them to say, that there's a $23 million road program set for 1967 and I suppose that they thought that it was this one. So the Tribune and myself are both confused, and perhaps my honourable friend can straighten us out, because I'm sure that there are still a few people in Manitoba who read the Tribune, and I'm sure that we would all like to know at what point we got confused and so my honourable friend can en lighten us on that aspect sometime later on. Now I said earlier, Mr .

Chairman, that I thought we should be spending a little more money on our provincial trunk roads and on another page of this document, the basis for road building for the future outlines the urgent needs, and it goe s on to say that in many of the high ways of this province they -- I 'm referring now to page -- gosh this document isn't - you lose the page numbers I don't know where we 're at, it starts off numbering them - here we are , page 18, so I suppose it's 17 although it isn't numbered. But it's immediately prior to 18 so we 'll assume that is page 17.

Headed "Tra ffic Facts" , and it says, "In 1959 traffic surveys were expanded to study traffic movements on the provincial highway system. Information from the study is used to estimate future highway needs ," and so on; and it goe s on to say that many of the highways of the province, the pattern of traffic is not at all even, and it goes on to point out too that in 8 months they will run up to 5 or 6, 000 and then in the winter time they '11 be down to probably lOO on tourist roads and so on.

But, as a comparison , it says "farm and business roads have a steady traffic throughout the year, " a steady - and it shows the charts a steady even pattern throughout the year. Now one of the many many reasons that the people rejected the referendum, or the single district division in the territory occupied by my honourable friend, because I believe that the

17 22 March 16 , 1967 (MR . SHOE MAKER cont 'd) ..... people in the Rolling River -- there were more people , I' ll put it that way, there were more people by far in Rolling River that rejected the single-district divisio n than any other single division in the Province. of Manitoba. I think I am right on that one . And one of the reasons - and I know there were a lot of reasons - but one of them was the condition of the school bus roads . I know that .

For insta nce, on Monday of last week, a week ago Monday, all of the sc hools at Eden were closed be cause of a big snowstorm; and on one other day - I think it was Wednesday or Thursday of the week immediately before the referendum - the kids were all let out at noon so that they coul d get home; there was another storm on. And the teacher told me that one of the buses had to come in in second gear for 20 or 25 miles.

Now this doesn't help when you've got a referendum the next day, and a lot of people out 30 mile s said, "Well if this is an indica tion -- that we 're going to hav� centraliz ation and if this is an indication, that is , not being able to go out at all on Monday, only a half a day on another day, then we don't want any part of it ." I'm saying this and my honourable friend can have his own v:iews on it , but this is one of the reasons they voted no, because we just are a little bit ahead of ourselves and we prob ably have too many sc hool buses and not enough good roads to carry them, One of the reasons -- probably more.

So that I think perhaps we should be accelera ting the rate at which we are building pro vincial trunk roads, and I must confe ss I like the idea of provincial trunk roads . I think it 's a pretty good idea to have them. But I think a lot of them have to be upgraded a little bit, and one that I want to mention that I think deserves priority in this regard, is what I call the Plumas - Waldersee road .

I know only a small part of it is in my con stituency, the rest of it is in the cons tituency represented by our Honourable Leader; but on this particular road there have already been three or four people killed and every single solitary person living in that vicinity will tell you why the acc ident occurred - because you run off of a hardtop. It 's black topped or asphalt surface for about two miles out of Plumas and they whip along on that at 60 mph and they drop off it into a pile of dust, and you can 't see nothing; it 's just like driving into a snowstorm .

And after two or three people have been killed it 's time to take a look at the cause of some of these acc idents. Mr. Chairman, on December 31 st , 1962 , I wound the. year up right that year I guess, because l took the opportunity on the last day of the year to write a letter to my honourable friend who was then Minister of Public Works, and I say that "I apprec iate the fact that January will be a busy month for you and your staff." That was an understatement .

"You will be busy , I am certain, preparing the 1963 es timate s for your department for presentation to the House when it meets some time next month." And then I go on to make some recom mendations to my honourable friend and I list what I consider to be the prioritie s in the Gladstone co nstituency �d I put the Neepawa-Ca rberry road first,. then. PT H No . 34 Gladsto ne to Austin next, and the Plumas -Waldersee road third, and my honourable friend, in that order, is attending to my needs .

He has done quite a bit of work on the Neepawa-Carberry road; intends to do some more this year; (I want to congratulate him for .that) he has done some work on No , 34; intends to do ·some more this year on that; but I don't, see anything in the program for the Plumas -Waldersee road, whic h is now lOO% provincia l trunk road -- I forget the number of it but that doesn't make any difference . But the se are the kind of roads the school buses are travelling over all the time , and I think that we need to spend a little more money on these and accelera te our work in this direc tion . . Now, Mr.

Chairman, there is one other subject matter that is very dear to my heart and I don't know whether my honourable friend wants to talk about it at this time or not, and that is on watersheds and soil and water conse rvation . Is that a separate department or do you want us to deal with it now ? Fine and dandy.

Well, the first res olution that I introduced in this House to about a third of. the Members that are here now, was one on the ;Riding Mountain-Whitemud River Watershed, and the Riding Mountain-Whitemud River Watershed was -t hat is, the committee -w as set up about 11 or 12 years ago, and little or nothing has been done since that in concrete terms. ·A lot of studie s were made . The local committe es after seven or eight years of hard work beca me so dis couraged that a lot of interest was lost and they had done a terrific amount of ground work, and I am very happy to learn , Mr .

Chairman, that at long last my honourable friend apparently intends to get down to doing some real work on the Whitemud Watershed. I want to quote from my honourable friend on Page 1697 of last night's Hansard or yes terday afternoon's Hansard, "Work on the Whitemud Watershed is well •.•• " is which ?

March 16, 1967 17 23 lVIR. WEffi: ..... at the beginning of the paragraph. MR. SHOEMAKER: Okay . "Comprehensive planning for the ultimate development of water resources of the province will continue again in 1967. It is expected that the plan for the Fis her River Watershed will be completed early in the new year and work on the construc tion program will be put under way. Work on the Whitemud Watershed is well under way, and in the new year it is planned to increase the activit ie s into those water sheds having their upper reaches in the western esca rpment." That is the total paragra ph.

Well, I hope that the work that was well under way -- I didn't know that there was work that was well under way . There was studie s that were well under way but what I would like to see is some action as a re sult of the studie s, and I hope that that is what ! can read into the paragraph that I have just read from my honourable friend, that there will be real work as a result of the studie s. Now, Mr.

Chairman, my honourable friend is in recei pt of a letter, and a file I guess, that he has rec eived from my honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture be cause I got a letter from him yes terday in which he said that he was no longer responsible for watersheds and soil and water conse rvation and he had turned all the files and my corres pondence over to my honourable friend and I would be hearing from him. That file , the one I am referring to in particular , is one that I have not had any definite and concrete succe ss with .

That 's the right word to use -n o succe ss at all, because there are people in areas where studies are being carried out that are at a complete loss to know what to do in planning for the future if they don't know what work is going to be done and when. And thi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-1-73
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 1st hansardpdf 73.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	fb6a0ff0f6124417204d9eee6e8634ab54faa8e5

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).