Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 29B (36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-29b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 29B • 1:30 p.m., Thursday, Apri19, 1998

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. -- KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C.

McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P.

SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. --- WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. Vacant Charleswood

1459 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April 9, 1998 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I beg to present the petition of Mary Masserey, Clarressa Valera, Linda Lemoine and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Pam Rinehart, Ken Martin, Edgar Baril and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg health food services. Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Doreen Loureiro, Edwar Swiston, Dorothy Webb and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services.

READING AND RECEI VING PETITIONS Women's Resource Centres Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT the Evergreen Women's Resour ce Centre prov ides services which focus on prevention and intervention in domestic ab use for communities within a 1 00-kilometre radius; and THAT with only partial funding from the provincial government, Family Dispute Serv ices, in the amount of $3 7, 600 and some fUnding from the communities it serves, the Evergreen Women's Resource Centre hires three part-time employees and prov ides telephone, counselling, training and seminar facilities, in addition to education, information and outreach programming; and THAT Evergreen Women's Reso urce Centre is also involved in referral services on a cris is-intervention and second-s tage outreach level; and THAT for years, the Evergreen Women's Reso urce Centre has st ruggled to prov ide these vital programs and services with limited funding or commitment from the provincial government; and THAT during the 1995 prov incial election, the Filmon government sa id, "The sa fety and security of the individual, our families and our communities is vital to the quality of our li fe.

"; and THAT if the Filmon government is really committed to that statement, it must back it up with funding for the agencies that prov ide services to make it a reality. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legis lative Assembl y of Manitoba urge the Filmon government to cons ider providing long-term, adequate and st able fUnding for the Evergreen Women's Reso urce Centre and other women's reso urce centres in the province to ens ure that the vital services provided by these organizations are continued.

Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

1460 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 1998 THAT the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food serv ices and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THAT it is es timated that more than 1, 000 health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a res ult, with many more pr ivatized in the next two or three years; and THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario busi nesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care sys tem; and THAT after construction of a food ass embly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipped in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipped to the hospitals,· and THAT people who are in the hospital req uire nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced sav ings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one st udy by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A cons iderable number of st udies have compared cos ts of serv ice delivery in health care between self-operation (public sect or) and pr ivatization.

Invari ably, privatization is more expensive. "; and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contr act, espe cially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembl y of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food servi ces . Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT the Urban Shared Serv ices Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food serv ices and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals,· and THAT it is es timated that more than I,OOO health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a res ult, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario busi nesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care sys tem,· and THAT after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipped in from Ontario. then assembled and heated before being shipped to the hospitals; and THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food,· and THAT the announced sav ings as a res ult of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A cons iderable number of studies have compared costs of serv ice delivery in health care between self-oper ation (public sect or) and privatization.

Invar iably, privatization is more expensi ve. ",· and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembl y of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centr alization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food serv ices. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT the Urban Shared Serv ices Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THAT it is es timated that more than 1, 000 health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a res ult, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and -- -

April 9, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 146 1 THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario busi nesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care sys tem; and THAT after construction ofa food assemb l y warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipped in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipped to the hospitals; and THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced sav ings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one st ud y by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A cons iderable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sect or) and privatization.

Inv ariably, privatization is more expensive. "; and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRA Y that the Legis lative Assembl y of Manitoba urge the Minis ter of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food ser vices. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Educ ation and Training): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, the '98-99 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Education and Training. * (1 335) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bi11300-The Brandon University Foundation Incorporation Amendment Act Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I would move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms.

Wowchuk), that leave be given to introduce Bill 300, The Brandon University Foundation Incorporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi constituant Ia Fondation de l'Universite de Brandon, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Leonard Evans: By way of explanation on first reading, just briefly, this is a minor technical correction which should receive support from all members of the House and would facilitate the efficient operation of the Brandon University Foundation.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon eighteen Grade 9 students from Neepawa Area Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Harold Repko. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings). Also, we have 25 journalist students from Red River Community College under the direction of Mr. Donald Benham. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Minister Responsible for MTS Conflict of Interest Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, in January of 1992, questions were raised in the public about the issue of Linnet Graphics. At that time, on January 8, 1992, the Premier moved Linnet Graphics from the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology, the Minister of Finance today, to the then Minister of Finance because the brother-in-law of the corporation was dealing directly with the government.

We thought that was a prudent course for the ethics of the government and for the ethics of the minister, and I would like to ask the Premier why today does he not see a similar if not more serious situation where you have a minister responsible for the golden share dealing with a brother of the same individual who is eligible for up to a million dollars in stock options, as he is still minister responsible for the golden share?

1462 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 1998 Hon. Gary Filmon (Prt!mier): Madam Speaker, we do not believe that there is any breach of our conflict of-interest guidelines, and if the member believes so, then I invite him to make the challenge and to seek legal counsel to pursue it. Mr. Doer: There was no challenge of the conflict-of interest guidelines at the time of Linnet Graphics, but good sense and ethical decision making was in place.

The mini ster at the time said that this issue was a problem for him, even though his brother-in-law was an employee of the corporation and did not hold shares in the corporation which would have then presented a situation of conflict in terms of the financial or pecuniary gain.

I would like to ask the Premier: does he not see the ethical disadvantages and ethical problems and challenges of having a minis ter responsible for the golden share who acknowledged yesterday he is responsible for the debt payments in the new private telephone system to the government, a mini ster responsible for the golden share, when some of the assets of that corporation are not going to debt repayment but are going to his brother in the form of stock options? Does the Premier not see that that is a definite difficulty, and why can he not do as he did with Linnet Graphics and move the file? Mr.

Filmon: As the member has been fully informed, Madam Speaker, the Manitoba Telephone System has not only kept up to all of its responsibilities to the Crown but has exceeded them in terms of its early repayment of debt. So there has been no breach in any way of the relations or the obligations with respect to the corporation and the Province of Manitoba. * (1 340) Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, I cannot believe that the Premier does not see the ethical problems with a mi nister respons ible for the golden share also having individuals who are related to him gaining up to a million dollars in stock options and others gaining tens of thousands if not millions of dollars as well, but particularly in this case, a direct relative of the minis ter. I cannot understand, and I would like to ask the Premier: under

Section I 0 of the act, which provides for a special share, that the minis ter is entitled to vote, what action did the minister responsible for the golden share take under

Section I 0 of the act to deal with the golden stock options that were provided to the relatives of the minis ter responsible for the golden share? Hon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Finance): I am glad that the Leader of the Opposition refers to the act, and I would assume that he is referring to the Manitoba Telephone System reorganization bill that was passed back in 1996. I do encourage him to read then-he is referring to

Section I 0-the sections of the act give us the ability to appoint four directors as members of the board of directors of MTS. We have done that as we are allowed to do. I have named those four individuals. I also encourage him to read

Section 11 which outlines very clearly the conditions attached to the issuing of that share. I think he will find that all of those conditions are being met; they have been met. As the Premier has indicated, the debt repayments are actually, if anything, ahead of

schedule and the conditions are clearly outlined in legislation. My responsibility as Minister of Fin ance- [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Finance, to quickly complete his response. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, as I have indicated, we appoint four members to the board of directors. My responsibility as Minister of Finance is to be absolutely certain that all of these conditions are being met, and I can assure this House today they are being met, and certainly the issue of paying back the debt is being met. In fact, it is being exceeded.

Minister Responsible for MTS Conflict of Interest Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): It is clear that the min ister responsible for MTS still does not get it. He is the minis ter on behalf of the Crown that owns a special share. It is outlined not only in

Section 11 (1 )(

g) of the act, but he might want to refer to The Corporations Act, 17 0(1 )(d). His responsibility is to protect the public interest. It was not in the public interest for a stock option to be given to his brother and other directors, $3.5 million, Madam Speaker. -

April 9, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1463 I want to ask the mini ster responsible for MTS what action he took under his responsibilities, as the owner of a special share, alsothe minis ter that appointed directly four people to the board. What action did he take to prevent this rip-off of Manitobans? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, what the member for Thompson chooses to ignore or forget is the fact that there are some 70,000 shareholders of MTS, indivi dual Manitobans, in fact the majority origin ally Manitobans who have invested in MTS, and at a shareholder meeting on May 30, 1997, those shareholders ratified a stock option plan. They delegated the authority to the board of directors to pursue the details of a stock option plan. The board of directors set up a subcommittee of human resources.

They retained the professional expertise-! believe a group called the Hay consulting group did a review of compensation right across Canada for telecommunication companies and other kinds of companies, and as a result of the approval given by the shareholders, the board of directors has brought forward the details of that stock option plan. They will be held accountable again by the shareholders, the 70,000 shareholders, at their next general meeting held in April of this year. That is accountability. That is a signi ficant degree of accountability to people who invest their own money in MTS. Mr.

Ashton: Madam Speaker, speaking of accountability, I am asking the question to the Mini ster of Finance. The Minister of Finance refuses to answer it. I will ask him once again. What action did he take, given his responsibility under

Section 10 of the act, as the minis ter responsible for the class of shares? What action has he taken in regard to this $3.5- million stock option program that comes ahead of any debt repayment, which is part of his responsibility? What action did he take as minis ter responsible for MTS? Mr. Stefanson: Again I encourage the member for Thompson, if he has not done it, to read just a little further in the bill that he appears to have before him, and to read

Section 11 , and he will see the conditions that are attached to the special share that this Province of Manitoba owns. There are a series of conditions in that section. All of those conditions are being met. As well, Madam Speaker, the $426 million of debt that was due the taxpayers of Manitoba back on January 7, 1997, is now down to $239 million. That is excellent performance in terms of repaying that money to the taxpayers of Manitoba. In terms of the operations of MTS, as I have said before, there is a regulatory process, CR TC, for them to go through in terms of rates, in terms of expenditures and so on.

That is a process that protects the consumer and the public and is obviously working well today because we currently have the lowest residential rates for our telephone company of any telephone company in all of Canada. * (1 345) Resignation Request Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with a final supplementary. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Given the fact the min ister did not answer the question again, I want to ask the Premier whether he will do the right thing and deal with the clear conflict that is involved here, the clear lack of responsibility being shown by this min ister, supposedly to protect the public interest. Will he do the right thing and remove this mini ster as the minis ter responsible for MTS? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): As I indicated to his Leader, Madam Speaker, I will indicate to the member for Thompson that if he believes there is a conflict of interest here, he should make that allegation through the legal channels available to him and have it ruled upon. Manitoba Telecom Services Layoffs Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, my question is for the minis ter responsible for decentralization.

I say "decentralization" because in the past two years or so decentralization has been nonexistent in this province related to the workforce promised that was to be decentralized to rural Manitoba from the city. In 1990-and I want to table the decentralization memo that was presented for decentralization.

1464 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 1998 Madam Speaker: Question. Mr. ClifEvans: I want to ask the Minister responsible for Rural Development: of the 32 jobs from MTS that were promised and moved to rural Manitoba, can the mini ster tell us, of those 32, how many are still in rural Manitoba servicing the communities? Hon.

Leonard Derkacb (Minister of Rural Development): I must say that the decentralization initiative has been a very successful one throughout rural Manitoba, but it is interesting getting the question from the member opposite when, in fact, his party was so opposed to decentralization to begin with. In fact, the economy of rural Manitoba is very buoyant today. There are indeed many jobs out there in rural Manitoba that are very productive, and we are proud of the initiatives that we have undertaken.

Madam Speaker, it should be noted also that Manitoba Telecom Services is a private industry, and indeed that is something that their management has to decide and not the government nor this min ister. *

(1350) Mr. Clif Evans: I want to ask the Minis ter of Rural Development: since he did not answer the question about the 32 jobs that were put out to rural Manitoba, can the minis ter tell us, if the rural economy is so important for the services through MTS or any other service, how can the minis ter tell us that services are going to be there for rural Manitobans through MTS when Dauphin has lost jobs, Portage has lost jobs, Steinbach has lost jobs through privatization and decentralization of the decentralization? Mr.

Derkach: Madam Speaker, there was a time in the history of this province where indeed there were no jobs in rural Manitoba, and that was during the years of the NDP. Today we have an abundance of jobs that are being created throughout rural Manitoba. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minis ter of Rural Development, to complete his response. Mr.

Derkacb: Madam Speaker, this morning's information about unemployment rates was certainly encouraging to all of us when the reports have indicated that Manitoba can now boast of having the lowest unemployment rate in this country. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, Beauchesne's Citation 41 7 is very clear: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." I have sat here for the last five minutes, Madam Speaker.

Not only have I seen this minis ter blatantly ignore those rules, I have seen members opposite eat up question time and you not intervene either on his irrelevance or their abuse of Question Period. I ask you to call him to order. Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would ask the honourable Minister of Rural Development to respond to the question asked. * * * Madam Speaker: The honourable Mini ster of Rural Development, to complete his response. Mr.

Derkach: Madam Speaker, I am very proud of the record this government has with regard to jobs in rural Manitoba and throughout this province, and we will continue to promote jobs through the private sector throughout this province, and indeed that is happening daily. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Interlake, with a final supplementary question. Mr.

Clif Evans: Madam Speaker, my supplementary question for the Minis ter of Rural Development is: seeing that the minis ter talks about the low unemployment rate in rural Manitoba, seeing the minis ter talks about the economic boom in this province, what is this minister going to say-will he say those same words to the people who have been laid off through decentralization, after decentralization, after -

April 9, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1465 privatization of MTS and all the layoffs that have occurred with the Manitoba Telecom Services in rural Manitoba? Mr. Derkach: Madam Speaker, the technology that is available today is evolving, and indeed jobs are changing by the day. I only point- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. * (1 355) Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Derkach: Madam Speaker, within the last few years we have seen an enormous number of jobs in the technology area. I think there are something like 7,000 jobs created in this province as a result of the new technology of call centres.

So there are jobs out there in rural Manitoba and in urban Manitoba, and indeed if you look at the reports, this province can be very proud of its job-creating record. Educat ion System Substitute Teacher Costs Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, user fees in public schools have been escalating across the province, and every parent is very keenly aware of this. Under this government, parents have been charged a fee to have a teacher in the classroom.

I would like to table a letter from the Minister of Education where she says, and I quote: that she is aware that substitute teacher costs are being passed on to parents. I would like to ask the minister to tell the House whether or not she has written to boards and superintendents, as she did about the God Save The Queen anthem, to inform them that this in fact contravenes The Public Schools Act. Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, of course the member has taken out of context a reference to a fact that for field trips and things of that nature, from time to time substitutes will be kept in the classroom while teachers escort students on field trips. That is not an everyday occurrence. That is not addressing the implications that the member has tried to put on the record by taking a quotation out of context, not set in the parameters, and I would invite all members to read the letter in full context.

The school divisions are fully cognizant of the funding that is provided to school divisions and the rules surrounding when or when not they can use substitutes in the classroom. Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, could the minister tell the House whether in fact she is going to require reimbursement to those parents who were required to pay for a teacher in the classroom? Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, throughout the length and time that I have been involved with schools in Manitoba, which has been some 30-odd years, students going on field trips have been sometimes asked to contribute to the cost of that field trip.

My own daughter, who went to school in the '70s and '80s, was frequently on field trips, and we were frequently asked as parents to help pay a fee to cover off the cost of the field trip. That is not paying for a substitute teacher, but if a substitute teacher is used while the teacher is gone on the field trip, that does form part of the expense of that field trip. This is nothing new. This is not something that has just occurred in the last 10 years. This has been occurring in Manitoba for at least 30 years in my experience in Manitoba.

The member tries to make it sound like students paying fees for field trips is something new. It is not. Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, is the minister saying then that those students who play on a school team and play away and take a teacher with them, must then pay for the substitute teacher who replaces that teacher in the classroom to instruct the compatriots, because that is what I heard the minister say? Mrs. Mcintosh: No, Madam Speaker, that is not what I am saying.

What I am saying is that when students go on field trips, and in some school divisions they have gone on field trips as far away as France or other places or they go to Vancouver or they go to another part of Manitoba, there are sometimes costs associated with that and parents are asked to contribute a fee to help cover off the expenses. I am not saying that every time

1466 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 19 98 a student goes on a field trip they have to pay a substitute. That is not what I am saying, and I wish to make that clear. * (1 400) Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, I have a new question. Could I get the minister to clarify then that fees will be paid for a substitute classroom teacher when a student is playing for a school team, but not when the student is on a field trip? That seems to be the distinction that she has made in the last two answers. Will she clarify that now? Mrs.

Mcintos h: Madam Speaker, I am not aware-and if the member has information to the contrary, I would be pleased to receive it-of any school where the student has had to pay the cost of a substitute teacher because a school tea is going on. Health Care System Role of Nurse Practitioners Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is again for the Minister of Health. Most Manitobans would recognize the importance that the roles our nurses play in our health care system, and what I would argue is that the government has been slow on the development of the whole field of nurse practitioners.

I would ask the Minister of Health: does the Minister of Health have any sort of time frame whatsoever to deal with the eventuality, hopefully, of having more nurse practitioners practising in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): We discussed this yesterday, and I would expect that the member for Inkster may want to pursue this in greater detail in Estimates debate which is now going on, but there is no doubt that there is a role and will be a growing role for nurse practitioners.

But there are some realities of making that work with other health care professionals, particularly the medical profession, that require some changes there, I think significant ones. So to see the growth in the use of nurse practitioners, these things must happen. Otherwise, I think we are creating a problem where we will not have the success that we intend. Like so many things in health care, it is interrelated to other things that are happening, physician remuneration models being one of them. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Health acknowledge, when he says that there is a role, that we can only say that for so long? For years we have been talking about it, and for years we have done nothing. The question specific to the Minister of Health is: when are we going to actually see some action? Where this is what we talk about, spending money smarter and positive health care change., these are the types of ideas that we should be talking about. When are we going to start seeing it? Not the talk, but the action. Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, the use of nurse practitioners in a variety of places in health care is certainly developing, and one of the fundamental changes in the administration of organization of health care at the regional health authorities now makes it, I think, even easier to bring about those changes because the RHAs have, I think, a much better ability to co ordinate and develop the use of new health care professionals.

But one thing we have seen is where physicians and nurse practitioners may be working in a primary health care model, if fee for service is the basis of payment for that physician, there is no incentive in using nurse practitioners or nurses or other primary care providers in an effective manner. So, until you have models of remuneration established and relationships between different professional bodies worked out, you set up these particular new professions or new roles for people in health care professions that are not going to be as successful as we all would like them to be. Mr.

Lamoureux: Will the minister then acknowledge that one of the ways in which you can maybe overcome some of the problems is in fact to designate some sort of a pilot project where we actually see nurse practitioners working with medical doctors and other nurses and health care providers? Will the Minister of Health make a commitment to coming up with a very tangible pilot project some time within this particular mandate that the government has been given?

April 9, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1467 Mr. Praznik: In many ways, the Assiniboine Clinic pilot project, which was established by my predecessor, the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae), the former Minister of Health, is one such example where the change in means of remuneration should encourage, we suspect, the greater use of nonphysician health care providers in providing care. The evaluation process, I believe, is now beginning on that particular model or will be beginning shortly, and we will learn some more from that process.

But where we have found mixing allied health care providers with physicians on fee for service, the desire or the method of remuneration where fee for service is in place has encouraged physicians to continue to do more of the work that we intend for other providers. So you have to have those correct models in place or the system, from what we know so far, will not work. Home Care Program Privatization Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildon an): Madam Speaker, yesterday in this House the minister gave the fourth version of the Olsten contract extension fiasco, indicating that, well, if it was extended, even though I have said it was not extended, but of course I went in the hallway and said it was extended, but it was not. Even though he said that, he said, well, anyway, it is the responsibility of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority or the long-term care authority. Is the minister saying that if the new health authority were to privatize home care services, he as Minister of Health would allow it? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member for Kildonan talks about fiascos. The fiascos are when members bring information to this House. The member brought a memo that had indicated a contract had been renewed where that had not been the case. I am not accusing him of doing it wrongly; there was a memo.

Part of the reason, of course, is there is a transition period that is underway with respect to home care in transferring it to the Winnipeg Long Term Care Authority, and if we have learned a number of things out of the process with the tendering process, and we were conducting the evaluation now, was that we have learned ways to make our system more effective, but we have also learned of the cost-effectiveness of our current system.

I can tell the member that things are on track from all of the statements that we have made here, and major policy decisions respecting some of these issues obviously would have to be made in consultation with the government. But we are awaiting the result of the evaluation, as we have indicated, and we also know what the results of the tendering process were. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, is the minister saying what I heard him say-and you never know with this minister, given the experience of the last few days in this Chamber-but is the minister actually saying that if the new health authorities, hand-picked mostly Tories by this government, come back and say we are going to privatize home care, that this Minister of Health, who several months ago said the privatization plan was over, will allow that privatization plan? Is that what he is saying? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, the whole trouble with this debate on home care that we are having with the New Democrats is they are trying to create an issue where one quite frankly does not exist. We in government have a responsibility to ensure that services are provided in an effective manner, that they are high-quality services and they are done in a cost effective manner. We approached, like we have many other services in health care and in government, an experiment in home care.

We have the results of the tendering process that speak to that process, and we will have the evaluation of the experiment here in Winnipeg. But I think if the member spent some time speaking to people involved with various regional health authorities, one of the issues that became very practical in the issue of home care, in running of service, that there was never a great interest in many parts of the province in private companies even providing that. So that becomes such a hypothetical question, it is just not real. * (1 410)

1468 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 19 98 Mr. Chomiak: Will the minister, who definitively said both in this Chamber and in the hallway, that the privatization experiment, the fiasco of this government, was over-will the minister definitively say whether or not the new health authority in Winnipeg has the authority of this government to contract private home care services or, if they in fact do, he will not allow it? What is he saying? What is the government's position? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, you see this question illustrates the difficulty in providing what I would believe to be a very accurate answer because of the ideological position that the New Democratic Party takes over and over and over again. This administration has always tried to be very practical, to deliver what works best. We have not privatized anything for ideological reasons. There are many things; there are many services. Take, for example, Fleet Vehicles. We looked at privatization and created a special operating agency within government because it was the best thing to do. We dealt with oxygen.

We have had no complaints about that service. It has worked very, very well, and the New Democrats were wrong. It was not an ideological position. Madam Speaker, from all of the work that we have seen today-and I have said the public health care system looks to be one that is delivering the service. I am not going to bind any future government by making a statement today, nor am I going to prevent the Winnipeg committee from time to time hiring some additional support as they do today and be accused of breaking a promise. Airports-Northern Manitoba Maintena nce/Upgrading Mr.

Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Highways. Last December the minister agreed that northern airports needed to be reviewed, and of course the task force-we are anxious to hear on their progress. Also, the minister indicated that many improvements were needed, such as Little Grand Rapids. It had to be replaced entirely in fact, is what he said. I would like to ask the minister how much longer or how much this minister has budgeted in this year's budget for improvements to northern airports. Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transp ortation): Madam Speaker, I am sure, as the member is aware-I think I have given this to him in a previous answer that the task force has been set up with individuals from the North and from the aircraft industry and from the government to look at what needs to be done. Before those decisions are in on what are the most appropriate things for improving safety at the northern airports, then you look at what the costs will be and how you arrive at paying for those costs.

But the budget line in the Department of Highways for northern airports is the same this year as it was last year. Mr. Robinson: I noted today that there was a press release issued by the Manitoba government indicating that there would be $300,000 made available for capital improvements to southern airports, but five years after he admitted that Little Grand Rapids airport needed to be scrapped or replaced, still has not done anything to now. Mr.

Findlay: Madam Speaker, of the 22 northern airports in Manitoba, the Province of Manitoba pays 10 0 percent of operating and maintenance and construction costs- 1 00 percent. Southern airports are maintained by municipalities, and the capital cost of building those was done by the federal government. It is very important that the capital structure of those airports be maintained, particularly for medivac operations. So in consultation with municipalities, a 50 percent support program is in place for those municipalities that come up with their 50 percent and make application.

It is 50 percent coverage in the south, and 10 0 percent coverage in the north. Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister to tell the people of Little Grand Rapids, Berens River, Poplar River and other northern Manitoba communities how much longer they have to wait to see basic navigational aids upgraded in their communities. -

April 9, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1469 Mr. Findlay: Well, Madam Speaker, I really do not understand what the member is asking because I think he approved of us setting up a task force of people to come forward and make the appropriate recommendations. Now he is asking me to preempt their work, and I will not do that. Interprovin cial Migration Increase Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Rural Development commented a moment ago about Manitoba's low unemployment rate, and I think we should all be happy.

We should all be happy about that, but I would ask the minister: has he seen the latest interprovincial migration figures which show that Manitoba has had a huge increase in the exodus of people to other provinces? In fact, Madam Speaker, it is well over 6,000, two and a halftimes the number of 1996, the worst situation we have had since the last five years.

In fact, we have even lost a thousand people to the province of Saskatchewan, so my question to the minister: is he prepared now to acknowledge that this low rate of unemployment has certainly a lot to do with the fact that we have lost just so many people from our workforce to other provinces? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Indu stry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, first of all, the only part of the

preamble I will acknowledge is the complimentary part which he has provided for the government. In fact, the fact that we are for the month of March at a 5.2 percent unemployment rate, the best since February of 198 1, Manitobans should be very proud. It is the private sector that is producing those jobs, and they are full-time jobs that we are seeing in the province of Manitoba. Madam Speaker, the member talks about out migration. We actually had turned around the out migration; up until a year ago we were virtually balanced. Yes, there is an area of concern; one has to be conscious of it.

In fact, we will be putting a program in place or a campaign in place to fully advertise how strong the economy is in Manitoba and the job opportunities that are here in Manitoba. All those people, particularly those that left during the NDP years, they are welcome home. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Winnipeg Music Com petition Festival Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Stur geon Creek): Madam Speaker, I am delighted to ask my colleagues in the Manitoba Legislature to join with me in wishing the Winnipeg Music Competition Festival a happy 80th anniversary in 1998.

This prestigious musical forum has long been a key component of Manitoba's educational process for aspiring musicians of all disciplines. Since the first Winnipeg Music Competition Festival took place in 1919, it has served as the springboard for the careers of countless young Manitobans who have gone on to pursue successful vocations in music. When the 1998 festival took place on March 2 to 21 of this year, with the final concert on March 25, over 24,000 participants between the ages of five and 80 years of age participated and made the 1998 presentation one of the largest in the festival history.

The remarkable musical event has in fact grown by almost 20 percent over the past five years, underscoring the significance of its role in Manitoba's cultural community. I was very proud of my youngest daughter, Laura, who was one of those successful, talented participants in this festival. Music talent in this province is alive and well, and our future looks great in the music industry. For 80 years the Winnipeg Music Competition Festival has been a musical experience of unparalleled excellence and learning, and it has been a major source of enrichment and validity for Manitoba's dynamic cultural legacy.

Therefore, Madam Speaker, it is my great privilege to ask our honourable members of the Manitoba Legislature to join with me in expressing our deepest appreciation for that of the people of Manitoba, to all past and present participants, staff and management, for their contributions to this cherished community institution. Thank you.

1470 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 1998 * (1 420) AECL -Pinawa Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, today we see in the papers the announcement that the private consortium that was going to save the day for AECL has backed out of the deal, and again we hear more bad news for the people who live in Pinawa. Today we hear that Pinawa's nuclear research facility is running out of options. Yes, that is certainly the case. In both the situation of the federal government and the provincial government, through their bungling we have seen the people of Pinawa left in a very undesirable situation.

As the federal government keeps on passing deadlines, making more promises, we see them always broken. The province is standing by as we hear in the comments from Ben Sveinson, the member who represents the area, that our government stands ready to implement an economic development plan, as announced in December of '96, as soon as the federal government lives up to its commitments. Well, the fact is that it is this government and the federal government that have let down the people of Pinawa and the scientists at AECL.

Both governments are responsible for this disaster and need to take immediate action to save those jobs that are remaining and the economic security of eastern Manitoba which is in jeopardy right now. Unemployment Rate Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Madam Speaker, the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) in the response to our throne speech in 1990 said, and I quote: The overwhelming majority of initiatives announced by the government were aimed at directly assisting businesses.

There were new agencies to help business, promises to reduce corporate taxes, commitments to consult business, but virtually nothing for the people. Let us focus on that last comment, "but nothing for the people." Our government's long-term economic plan, our approach of living within our means and creating an environment conducive to employment growth continues to bear fruit for the people of Manitoba. Today's news that Manitoba's unemployment rate of 5.2 percent is the lowest rate in all of Canada and the lowest figures since February of 198 1 is clear evidence of the success of our policies.

It is evidence of our commitment to the people. Our government recognizes that Manitobans want quality employment opportunities. Our targeted tax cuts and fiscal responsibility, initiated when we took our financial mess left by the members opposite, has resulted in full-time employment, averaging 41 6,300 people for the first three months of 1998. This is an increase of 1 1,400 over the same period last year. The member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) once rose in the House to say, and I quote: We cannot accept business's greed and irresponsibility.

Now I ask: are businesses such as Loewen Windows, Bristol Aerospace, Maple Leaf Foods, and Acrylon Plastics greedy? Maybe they are, Madam Speaker, but not in the manner implied by the member for Radisson. They are greedy for workers, greedy to provide quality jobs and quality wages to more Manitobans. Our economy is strong, our policies are strong, and our employment numbers are the strongest in Canada. Thank you. Private Nursing Assistance Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I want to raise the issue of citizens of Manitoba having to use private nursing agencies and private nurses in our public institutions, our nursing homes and our hospitals because the funding has been cut in these hospitals and these nursing homes in large measure and because they have reduced the number of nurses and staff, and I know in particular in the Brandon Regional Health Authority area they have cut $6 million in the past few years and they have laid off hundreds of nurses.

As I indicated the other day in this House, in Killarney we have an example of a family having to hire a We Care agency to come in and look after this 94-year-old mother because they did not have enough staff to look after that particular lady. Another example: in the hospital in Killarney where the family were required to use We Care agency and pay $3,000 a month to look after this individual because the hospital said they did not have adequate staffing. -

April 9, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1471 Madam Speaker, I have heard of other cases, the River East Personal Care Home, and now in Brandon I have a letter from a person who had a mother in the Brandon Hospital who, unfortunately, recently died, but she says in this letter, a copy of which has been given to me-this is a letter to Mr. Backman, the CEO of the regional health authority-and she said that she went to visit her mother who was very bruised and in considerable pain.

I am reading this from the letter, and she said: I have grave concerns regarding the staffing levels, the staff mix, communication and lack of direct supervision of nursing care and interdisciplinarian approach. These incidents have prompted us to put private nursing service in place three hours every evening since December 13 , 1997. This was acknowledged by Mr. Backman's letter to her of February 5, when he said indeed that they did facilitate her care by hiring private nurses. Madam Speaker, what is happening to our public health care system? It is deteriorating; it is eroding.

This is why the people of Manitoba are concerned, and I ask the Minister of Health to do something about it, as I did a month ago, and we have not had any response from this side thus far. Immi gration-Visiting Visa Mr. Kevin Lamoureux {Inkster): Madam Speaker, I was actually hoping to bring it up at some point during Question Period, but I figure this is maybe just as good an opportunity for this particular issue, and that is with respect to an issue on immigration visas and so forth. Every year it seems I am, as I am sure many others are, approached about visiting visas.

One of the concerns I have, and it is primarily from the Philippines where this particular issue is raised I must say, where individuals apply to be landed here in Manitoba or in Canada, if I can say, and after maybe being rejected a year or so later, they will make application to be able to come to Manitoba under a visiting visa. What I have found is time and time again, these individuals are in fact being denied, and I think that is unfortunate. What we have is the provincial government does have a bilateral agreement.

We see that provincial governments are participating more in immigration matters Well, this goes beyond immigration in terms of one could argue for tourism and so forth of our fine province, that we have individuals who want to be able to come and visit Manitoba, and I am not hearing anything in terms of numbers as to why it can be justified, the rejection of the numbers that are in fact being rejected. I have not seen any sort of justification for it.

I have made mention of it to the minister across the way and she had indicated that she would take a look into the particular issue but I think that we need to be aware of the fact that there are many people who live outside of Canada that do want to be able to come to Canada and we have to do what we can to ensure that that in fact does occur, and hopefully that issue will be addressed. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, before we resume consideration of the business of Supply, I would like to take this opportunity to wish all my colleagues and their families a very happy and peaceful Good Friday and Easter weekend, and we look forward to seeing everyone's happy faces next Tuesday when we resume. In the meantime, I think there would be agreement that private members' hour today be waived and that the House adjourn at 5 p.m. Madam Speaker: Is there leave of the House to waive private members' hour and adjourn the House at 5 p.m.

Leave? [agreed] As previously stated, the House will now resume in Committee of Supply. * (1 430) COMM ITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) LABOUR Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply

1472 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 1998 meeting in Room 254 will resume the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Labour. When the committee last sat it had been considering item 11 .1 . Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 102 of the Estimates book. Shall this item pass? Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I believe before the lunch break, Mr. Chairperson, I had asked a question that the minis ter was just in the process of answering, and it was dealing with cost recovery for the department. I had asked that question and I believe he had not completed his answer. Hon. Harold Gille shammer (Minister of Labour): Mr. Chair, before I proceed with the answer, I would like to just address a couple of things that were mentioned this morning.

I had suggested that the member for Transcona was the one who raised the question of the minimum wage in the House. In fact, it was not the member for Transcona. It was his leader, the honourable Leader of the official opposition. I apologize for that confusion. I often get members opposite who are in a leadership position confused. I went to the Hansard, and it was the current Leader of the Opposition. So just to correct that. A second issue that is of a more serious nature we began this morning.

My honourable friend at some length indicated that he had asked some questions last year that we took as notice, and we were going to find the information for him. He claimed that none was forthcoming. I felt he was wrong then but I did not say anything. I was concerned because I know my staff is diligent and hard working and pay great attention to detail. So the first thing I did when I left the committee room was to inquire of my staff what possible questions we had not answered for my honourable friend last year. I am told that a package was given to the members; one of the interns came to my office to get it.

It is dated July 15 , and it goes into considerable detail on some of the questions that were put. I certainly feel bad if these never arrived in the member's hands. I am told that my assistant is here, and he remembers distinctly having them picked up by one of the interns. I have the original copy here. What we will do is have it copied for the next time we meet so that all of this information can be transmitted. So I am concerned that there was a little confusion there. The only other individual who asked a question of me last year where we took it as notice was the member for Concordia (Mr.

Doer), a question to do with chronic fatigue syndrome, and this was mailed on July 15 to the member for Concordia. I have not heard any different that he did not receive it. This was picked up by one of the caucus staff, one of the interns. This was sent by mail, and I have not heard from Mr. Doer. I presume that he got that. Now, the question at hand was to do with cost recovery.

I think the cost recovery has always been a significant part of the operation of the Department of Labour, that there are fees that are levied for certain examinations, certain appeals and certificates and work that the department does. l believe the figure we use is 65 percent of our total budget is recovered through the diligent work that is done by staff in all parts of Manitoba in a variety of ways. * (1 440) Mr. Reid: So then last year your cost recovery was 63 percent, and then based on this year's budget allocations, your cost recovery is going to be 65 percent.

So you have seen a 2 percent increase in your total cost recovery. Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. I would point out that the reason that there is maybe a slight variance in that figure is some of it is volume driven, obviously, and there is also a change in the base expenditure rate, but the member will note that the percentage is, while not equal, certainly somewhat simi lar. Mr. Reid: Can the min ister tell me has the department included in this year's budget allocations increases in fees in the areas for which the department is responsible? If so, do you have a list of those fee changes? Mr.

Gilleshammer: Well, I can tell my honourable friend that there will be some revenue changes for 1998-99. There will be no new sources of revenue. Some of these, we are still working on. None of them have been implemented at this stage. In some cases, regulations have not been finalized yet, but there are no - ·-

April 9, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 73 new sources of income, and the department is currently working on some of these fees. I am not at liberty to announce them until we get some of the detail finalized, but there will be some changes. Mr. Reid: I think, if I recall correctly, in past years what has happened is the fee changes were announced after the Estimates process for the Labour department were finished, and Highways operated in much the same way.

So you are anticipating whatever changes will be coming about by way of amendments through the regulations, that these changes will take place closer to the summertime then. Mr. Gille shammer: We would like to get that work done as soon as possible. I think it is to some degree a work-related issue. Some of the detail has to be worked out, and I would like to have them implemented and announced as soon as possible.

I know that from previous years, sometimes we have gone almost a full calendar year, the full budget year before some have been implemented because of some difficulties we would have internally, but I can say that we are not introducing any new fees, any new revenue streams but that we are looking at some of our examination fees, some of our appeal fees, some of our certificate fees, et cetera, and we will be pleased to forward those to my honourable friend when we have the necessary work done. Mr. Reid: I understand, Mr.

Chairperson, that they come by way of Order-in-Council, and we will be made aware of it, at least, through that method. The fee changes that you are contemplating, you mentioned several there, and I know you made some changes last year to licensing fees, I believe it was, for some of the trades. Are you also contemplating making some fee changes in those areas in addition to the ones you have already made last year? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that we are not.

We talked about interprovincial comparisons this morning, and one of the things that I have asked staff to look at is what do similar charges look like in particularly adjacent provinces but across the country, and if we are charging $1 0 for something and everybody else is $50 or $1 00, I think we are out of line, and we are looking at some of those fees and trying to compare ourselves interprovincially, if the comparison is an accurate one. But, yes, we are working on some changes there, and, again, I am told that there is not a change in the areas that we changed last year, but we are looking at some new ones.

Mr. Reid: I think, Mr Chairperson, it begs the question then, if you are doing interprovincial comparisons for your fees-and I take it you would want to remain relatively competitive in that area-why is it so taboo then to do the same thing for your minimum wage? I mean, we are at the bottom end of the scale there. We are not close to being the middle of the pack, by any stretch of the imagination. To me, it does not make sense. You are doing it for fees, certifications, permits, on licensing for trades people, and you want to look at other jurisdi ctions, but you are not doing it for the minimum wage here.

I do not understand. What is the difference between the two in your mind that you would not want to do that? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, we have legislation that we must abide by. The legislation indicates that a committee of Manitobans is called, that public hearings are held and that people from all parts of Manitoba, from wonderful cities like Thompson and Steinbach and Dauphin and so forth will get an opportunity to have some input into that.

If you are asking that the process be changed, I do not think I can change the process, but I did say this morning that I expect the committee would also look at interprovincial comparisons as well as listening to presentations that people are making. So I do not think there is anything inconsistent, that the legislation maps out the process. We are going to abide by that process. Mr. Reid: I understand the legislation maps it out and gives the minister the powers to call the advisory body on an ad-hoc basis at the min ister's discretion.

The min ister chose not to use that discretion last year, and his predecessor chose not to use that as well. Nevertheless, you had that decision to make and you chose not to call it, and you could have, to put us into a position that would have put us into the middle of the pack at least with respect to the rest of the country. I take it you want to do that with your fees. You want to make sure that you are competitive in those

14 74 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 19 98 areas, but you do not want to do it on the other side where people earn the living from those monies and have to exist on minimum wage jobs. Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, that is not entirely correct, Mr. Chairman. I did say this morning that it is a very important process that this committee be struck, that it have an opportunity to listen to Manitobans, and I also said that there is nothing stopping the committee from looking at what other provinces are doing, particularly the prairie provinces.

We are one of the prairie provinces, and I think that if you want to make inter provincial comparisons, the most direct comparison, the most adequate comparison would be with the other prairie provinces. I would point out to the member, who I think has some numbers in his head, that if you look at the three prairie provinces, the Manitoba minimum wage is above the average. Mr. Reid: So, if you are going to do cross-country fee comparisons for your permits and your licensing, Saskatchewan is $5.60; Ontario is $6.85; Quebec is $6.80; Manitoba is in the range of $5.40 an hour.

So, I mean, if you would look at those other provinces that are neighbouring to us, if you want to go into Alberta, of course, they are a little bit lower than us at $5 an hour, but then again if you go to B.C., they are at $7. 15 an hour. So I do not know how you average that out, that we are in the middle of the pack. I guess if you want to narrow it down and take two provinces to compare with, of course we are going to be favourable, but you are comparing apples to oranges.

You are comparing all the way across the country for your licensing and permit fees, but you are not doing the same thing on your minimum wage. You are not moving it into that category and you are not keeping that in mind when you make a decision on whether or not you are going to call at your discretion the Minimum Wage committee. So I do not understand the logic here. * (1 450) Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, my honourable friend did not listen very carefully. He was, I think, distracted when I was giving my previous answer. We always look at statistics from across the country.

I just said that often the most apt comparison is with the prairie provinces. Our economies sometimes are fairly similar, our cost of living is similar, and we do the same with the fees. One of the first questions I ask staff is, in the neighbouring province of Saskatchewan, what would be the fee for this? In some cases, where it jumps off the page at you that we are way out of line, then those are fees that I think are ones that we should be reviewing.

But with the Minimum Wage Board, I said it this morning and I said it again this afternoon, there is nothing stopping the board from in addition to doing the public hearings and hearing the representations to make cross-country comparisons and, again, I said probably the most apt comparison is with the other prairie provinces. If you compare the prairie provinces, we are above the average of the prairie provinces at the existing time, but we expect that maybe other provinces are going to look at their rates too. But it is one of the measures and one of the sources of input the committee is free to use. Mr.

Reid: I guess we will have to await the outcome of that particular review committee because, obviously, the minister and I will agree to disagree on his process that he has at his discretion. I want to ask the minister with respect to the staffing that he has, last year he indicated to me the names of his special assistant and executive assistant, and I wonder if those two people have remained the same for this year. Mr. Gillesh ammer: I just want to go back to a comment, one made before. The member is suggesting that he thinks that government should call the Minimum Wage Board every year.

I think that is what he is saying. I was just inquiring of my staff, you know, what was the history of the Minimum Wage Board through the 19 80s. It looks like changes were made in 19 80 twice and in 19 81 and in 19 82 and then there was no change from 19 82 to 19 85. Now, I do not know what the position of the member was or the NDP government of the day, but they obviously went three or four years without calling the Minimum Wage Board and, you know, it is I guess not --

April 9, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1475 an uncommon thing. And then it was called again two years later in 1987, or changes were made in '87. So I guess the policy direction that is being enunciated by my critic and I presume supported by the entire caucus across the way is different than the practice that they had while they were in government. But, I mean, there is nothing wrong with changing either.

I suspect that although in many ways the people in the NDP party are very dogmatic and resistant to change, if my honourable friend is saying, yes, we made mistakes in the 1980s, but we would fix it in the 1990s, I notice that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) railed against the balanced budget legislation and is on record along with virtually every seatmate over on the other side spoke unfavourably about balanced budget legislation and poked fun at it.

Virtually every member over there voted against it, and now, lo and behold, in 1998 I believe I heard, not very loudly but faintly, that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) would even believe in repaying some debt and balancing the budget. So there is room for change. [interjection] Well, progressive perhaps, in some ways, but I am heartened by that, because I think it shows that people over there are willing to learn and willing to change. I would imagine that even though they voted against the budget the other day, they will get another chance, I think, at the end of the Estimates process to correct that.

You know, I would be interested in what sort of a plan they would have for paying down the debt. I think the Leader said $75,000 was appropriate- An Honourable Member: $75 million. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairperson, $75 million. It was wrong last year, but it is right this year according to him. If a little bit of debt repayment is good, doubling it must be even better. So you know it is food for thought and he will have an opportunity to think about those things. Now I think the question was on political staff.

I have a special assistant who started with me in 1997 and is still with me, and I have an executive assistant who has been with me since about six months now. Mr. Reid: So this special assistant has changed. From what you told me you have a new one. The executive assistant has changed? Mr. Turner is no longer with you in that capacity? And would you please provide us with the name for the new executive assistant? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes. Mr. Warren Hoffman, born and raised in Minnedosa, Manitoba, graduate of a fine collegiate there, Minnedosa Collegiate, and doing an excellent job.

Had I known you had not met him-he is not here today, he is actually probably rehearsing. He is in a major drama presentation out there, and I think sometimes he sneaks a little time to study his notes and learn his lines. Next week, I believe it is, he is going to perform and there is a whole bunch of us going out to watch him because while we knew he had talent in his job as an EA, we did not think he could sing and dance. Mr. Reid: I thank the minister for that information. Can you tell me, do you have any vacancies existing within this part of your department? Mr. Gillesh ammer: I am told the answer is no.

Mr. Reid: Do you have any people that are seconded from this part of the department, in or out? Mr. Gillesh ammer: Yes, my deputy informs me his assistant has been seconded by, I believe, another department. Mr. Reid: Can you tell me who has been seconded and where they have been seconded to? Mr. Gillesh ammer: Her name is Ms. Nighean Wallace, and I believe she has been seconded to the Department of Health. Mr. Reid: Does that secondment have anything to do with the health authorities that are being established in the province? Is that the purpose of this secondment? Mr. Gillesh ammer: No. Mr.

Reid: Can you tell me why the secondment is taking place then? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, secondments are usually seen as an opportunity for someone to gain further

14 76 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 19 98 experience and expertise in either another position within government or somewhere else. There, I guess, was perceived by the Department of Health that they had a need, and there was some interest on the part of this individual and, as a result, a kind of a marriage took place-maybe that is not the right word. A secondment took place, so she has left that office not that long ago. *( 15 00) Mr.

Reid: Can you tell me, because I do not want to ask this in each of the different areas that you have throughout your budget process here, if you have some information relating to compensation costs? No doubt in the Department of Labour you have people that are going into industries, different businesses throughout the province, whether it be employment standards or workplace safety and health or mine safety or other areas of your department.

What is the experience rating for your department with respect to injuries of your employees, the 203 people you have working for you in the department, and what kind of costs would be associated with that? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told we have nobody away from the workplace at this time and that the admin costs related to WCB is about $1 0,000. Mr. Reid: I thank the min ister for the information. So there are no people that are off on workplace injury situations in any part of the department. Do you have a comparison for the last year?

I notice your annual report for the 19 97-98 year is not out yet, and I am just wondering if you have that information available. Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told there is an individual in Mechanical and Engineering who is on long-term disability since 19 97. There is nobody else. Mr. Reid: Okay. Mr. Chairperson, I thank the minis ter for that information. I wanted to go back. I hope your staffperson is still here with respect to the desktop computer initiative. I had neglected to ask a couple of questions in that regard.

When you mentioned that you have 17 6 systems set up for your staff in there, I forgot to ask you how many you currently had within your departmental operations, so I can have an understanding of whether or not you are replacing the existing that are there or you have new equipment, because it is my understanding that Systemhouse is only going to replace the existing systems. Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that there are six net new systems. Mr. Reid: So of the 17 6 you had 17 0 systems before and you have six new ones to bring you up to that 17 6, I think it was, that you mentioned this morning. Is that accurate?

Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. I am also advised that that is for our operation in the city of Winnipeg. The transition for Brandon and Thompson-and we have offices in The Pas-has not taken place yet, but will. Mr. Reid: Can you tell me, because I was trying to get an idea here based on the number of systems you have and yet you are talking about a $250,000 ongoing annual cost, what your annual maintenance cost is going to be for the systems? Do you have a global cost, or do you have it broken down by the individ ual systems you have? Mr.

Gilleshammer: We do not have any final numbers for that, but I feel I must repeat again that all of this information that the members wanted detail on is not lodged in this department. It is lodged in the Department of Government Services in what is called the Desktop Unit. So we make no apologies for not having succinct information for you in that area, but it is the logical place for you to get all the detail you want about this transition from current systems that is starting to take place and going to take place. Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St.

James): Just for the record, can the minis ter tell us the actual number of staff years that were related to computer supports in the department, both permanent and term? Mr. Gilleshammer: If l understand your questions in the old way of doing business, you want to know how many people were dedicated to, in a large part, the systems, and I am told the answer is five. Ms. Mihychuk: That would be 5.0 staff years related to computer supports. - -

April 9, 19 98 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 77 Mr. Gille shammer: Yes. That is called our Information Systems services. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us the budget allocation for those five staff years? Mr. Gilleshammer: So you want to know the total salary cost of those five people when those five people were there? Ms. Mihy chuk: Yes. Mr. Gilleshammer: We will do a little arithmetic here and see what we come up with. I am told it would be in the area of$2 1 5,000. Ms.

Mihychuk: The final area of questioning relates to the initial or the additional $250,000 that is required this year to move into the new system. Can the minister articulate what that is comprised of? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it will be a combination of things as I am sure you would have suspected, some hardware, some software, some training, some service and all the supports. Ms. Mihychuk: Perhaps this is too difficult right now to provide, but I would be prepared to receive it in a report as to what that would involve.

It is my understanding, and maybe I am mis informed, that Systemhouse will replace our hardware units. So this is a fairly significant investment in hardware and software when they are going to provide it anyway. So it does raise the question, and just for information because we will all be going through this process of change in all the departments. So, if we have that available, I would appreciate it. * (15 10 ) Mr. Gilles hammer: I am interpreting that to say that you would like us to give you more detail on the hardware, software, training and service, and we will take time and we will do that, sure. Ms.

Mihy chuk: This does conclude my series of questions on this. There seems to be a slight difference between the minister's comments earlier, which indicated a saving by going through Systemhouse of $225,000, and the net saving for the salaries is 215 . I mean, that is within a certain percentage, but is there additional savings in some other component that we are anticipating? Mr.

Gilleshammer: Well, I can give you the same information that was given to me this morning and if it does not suit you, I guess we can, when we answer your other question, find more detail, but I am told by the department that staff year changes resulted in a salary cost reduction of around $73,000. A total of $250,000 additional funding has been included within the Other Expenditures allocations of the various branches within the department to cover the net additional costs of implementing the desktop management initiative across the department in '98-99.

Total costs for desktop management are estimated at $475,000 for the year we are talking about, while off setting cost reductions are estimated at $225,000, leaving the net increase in expenditures of $250,000. If what you are asking is for more detail on that, we will endeavour to embellish that a bit or enhance that a bit for the member. Mr. Reid: I may have missed it earlier in the minister's comm ents, but perhaps he can refresh my memory. What benefit is this going to be to the dep artment that you do not already have? I mean, you have computer systems in your current operation.

How is this going to make your operations better? How are you going to better serve the public with this new system that is going to cost a substantial amount of ongoing tax dollars? Mr. Gille shammer: I think one of the things we mentioned this morning, that in place of working in isolation, some would say splendid isolation, we are part of the corporate government with systems which will be interrelated.

I am told that one of our objectives is to develop a computer network that is easier to use and upgrade that, again, supports government-wide programs and enables our staff to provide faster and more effective service to Manitobans at a more reasonable cost, so that we will have a single standard of hardware and software in a network.

14 78 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 19 98 I guess I do not pretend to be an expert in this, but the people who are working in the system are saying this to me. The people who are taking the training are telling me that they are impressed and amazed with some of the accuracy and some of the quickness with which they are going to be able to do the work. [interjection] Well, my honourable friend is always confusing me and getting me off track here. Maybe that is one of the reasons he is having trouble understanding my answers-! get distracted.

But the people that I have talked to within the department are saying that they are just really impressed. In fact, my other deputy from the Civil Service Commission was just in two days ago, and he and some of the very senior staff in the Civil Service Commission were taking a day or two of training. He came back saying the people in the Civil Service Commission were just really excited and impressed with the training and with some of the new technology that they are going to be able to access.

So I not only hear it from my senior staff, I hear it from other staff that we are going to be able to provide better service and service a lot quicker to our clients. Mr. Reid: I guess then it is going to speed up the e mail process between the different government departments. It seems like quite an expense to undertake to be able to speed that up.

We have phones no doubt sitting on all our desks, so I am not saying it is not warranted where the public is being served, but if its to assist your interdepartmental commu nication, and that is the primary focus because that seems to be the first point you dwelt on, that seems to be quite a significant cost to send e-mails back and forth between government departments and between staff and your own operations itself. Mr.

Gilleshammer: My honourable friend spent considerable time this morning posing as an expert on technology and new systems, and now when we say we are going to be able to do our work so much better he is trying to make light of it. I am not sure why he is doing that.

Again, I would be the first to say that there are people much more computer literate, much more in tune with how technology is making their jobs better and easier than I am, but when we have a staff throughout our department saying that these systems are going to improve our ability to serve the public, surely that is a good objective that both of us could support. Mr. Cha irperson: Item ll .l. (b)(

l) Employee Benefits $38 0,400-pass; Expenditures $69, 700-pass. Salaries and

(2) Other 11 .2. Labour Programs (

a) Management Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,03 3,300. Mr. Reid: Under the Labour/Management Services Division, I believe the LMRC is a component of that particular area. Can you tell me-l think the minister's staff may participate in the LMRC meetings or at least be aware of them-the last time the LMRC met, and has the minister then had any recommendations come from that committee to him on particular pieces oflegislation or other issues? Mr. Gilleshammer: I want to apologize for not introducing my staff who was here on two occasions. He is Mr. Ken Kowalski, the Director of Human Resources.

I would like the record to show that he was participating at the table with us. My honourable friend is asking about the Labour Management Review Committee and, yes, it is operating. I have had tht: opportunity to meet with members of the Labour Management Review Committee, and I think I had indicated to the member previously that they did a considerable amount of work on the bill which was tabled in the House this week. I would publicly thank them and thank them on the record, Mr. Wally Fox-Decent, who chairs that, and the two members who accompanied him, Mr. Rob Hill iard and Ms.

Candace Bishoff. * (1 520) We had an opportunity not that long ago to spend some time in my office looking at the legislation, and I have to say that their support, their wisdom, their knowledge, their work on that has been invaluable. The bill, as I have told my honourable friend before, is really a departmental-generated bill which col lapses three acts into a bill to become a new act. This has been in the mill for some time, because I am told by many people who have been around the Labour - -

April 9, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 14 79 Management Committee and around government that a lot of these acts needed to be updated and modernized. There was some conflicting information in them. I know the previous minister had hoped that he would have been able to bring it forward. In 19 86, we had staff working on it, and there was a time we thought we would bring it forward in 19 87, but the volume of the work was such that it simply was not ready. Even now we are tabling it.

I think it is Bill 28 on the Order Paper, so even now it did not get finished as early as we had hoped, but the Labour Management Review Committee has worked very diligently and brought perspectives from different communities and wisdom from different groups to bear on that bill, and their differences of opinions were boiled down to very, very few items. I do have a letter from the chair of the Labour Management Review Committee talking about the process and the work that was done.

So, in answer to the member's questions, yes, it is working, and this is an area that has been very productive and helpful for the department and for me as minister. Mr. Reid: Outside of the new piece oflegislation, The Employment Standards Amendment Act, that is before us, are there issues the minister has referred to the LMRC? Mr. Gille shammer: Mr. Chairperson, there is not at this time and, again, one of the reasons for that is the tremendous time commitment and workload that has emanated from the review of the bill that I was just referencing. Mr.

Reid: So then I take it the LMRC will not be meeting again to deal with any issues involving the government? Mr. Gilleshammer: Oh, I did not say that, and I do not know how my honourable friend reached that conclusion. I am saying that this was such a massive piece of work that consumed so much time, and I would have thought the member might have inferred from my praise of the process and the committee and the individuals who have been there that we would not hesit ate to use them again.

I would point out that the LMRC is also able to set its own agenda, but I would not hesitate to call upon them to do other work, and in fact I have been favourably impressed by the good relationships that we have had meeting with a number of the clients. I know that we recently met with what is called joint council, and we had four members from the MGEU in to meet with myself and two other ministers, had a very positive agenda.

We have had the opportunity to meet with members of the Chamber of Commerce; members of the Manitoba Federation of Labour; members of the MGEU; and members ofCUPE were in by themselves the other day. I think that the climate that exists in Manitoba at the present time is a very favourable one, and I would acknowledge the hard work that has been done by people from all those bodies to resolve differences. We have had very few work stoppages, and I am sure the member might even ask about that later on.

We have recently concluded a three-yea r agreement, negotiated agreement with the MGEU which I think makes everybody happy. Other pending work stoppages that have been in the news have tended to be resolved. I do not say that we are going to sort of resolve all ofthem. It is a legitimate part of bargaining, but the climate has been very favourable. The meetings that I have had with members of both the management community and the labour community have been very positive, and I appreciate their input. Mr.

Reid: It is unfortunate that your predecessor did not have perhaps the same approach to the LMRC that this current minister has, because they had made a recommendation some time ago dealing with items that were going to be presented towards Bill 26, The Labour Relations Amendment Act, that the previous minister chose to ignore. I am not saying that as a shot to the minister, just an observation that the LMRC had made recommendations that did not get incorporated into the legislation itself.

I wanted to ask the minister, I had raised this issue with him last year, and I do not know if it has been resolved yet, but I will raise it again. Dealing with the landscape architects, there was some discussion last year about who can approve building designs. Can you telJ me, has that issue been resolved? Who can approve

14 80 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 19 98 these matters, or is this something that is going to be left to the parties to continue to work out for another period of time? Can you tell me the status of that issue? Mr. Gilleshammer: I think it is fair to say there still are differences of opinion between the architects and the engineers, and we have consistently said that the best resolution would be a resolution emanating from those two groups. I know they have met separately, they have met together with my deputy.

We have also tried to assist them by providing a retired former employee of tremendous stature in this province, Mr. Tom Bleasdale, to work with them and to try and find some common ground. So the process is continuing, and I cannot tell you that there is resolution in sight. I think at least one party, if not both of them, have a lawyer involved. Let us just say that the differences, I think, have been fine tuned but have not been resolved. We will await any further comments and meetings with them. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I wanted to ask some questions on the engineering act as well.

I wonder if the minister could give us any time line of his expectations of when discussions might be concluded and when he might be bringing in

an act. Mr. Gilleshammer: I really have no good time line that I could share with you. Prior to your arrival, I indicated that we have met. I have met with them, my deputy and staff have met with them. They have some differences and I had indicated that we were providing a retired staff member to-is the right word mediate? Tom Bleasdale was the person that I referenced and he is on the job. We are running, I think, out of time in terms of getting something ready. So I would only be speculating if I was to say their process will result in us having something for this sitting. * (1 530) Ms.

Friesen: Is there any intention of the minister to hold any public hearings or any wider discussion, or is it at this point simply a matter of the existing parties coming to an agreement and then coming to the minister? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, our attitude has been for them to meet and resolve their differences. I believe they both take that very seriously. They are organizations that represent their particular membership. We certainly are not going to impose some sort of settlement.

There have been times when, I think, there has been some movement in agreement and then other times when it has not quite come together. We have gone so far as to, as I say, put somebody in there with tremendous knowledge and skills and talent to try and assist them. They, I am sure, do report to their membership by way of newsletters and meetings, and I do believe they represent their membership. They are free to consult with anybody they want. As I have indicated, I know they have legal advice. We have taken the step of providing, at our cost, an individual to assist them. Ms.

Friesen: Is there any consi deration on the department's part of looking at this in a national perspective? I think both organizations have national organizations as well, or is the department looking at it primarily as a provincial issue? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told there are other jurisdictions that have resolved their differences, and I think both parties that are in this disagreement are aware of that. I do not think they see the solutions that other people have arrived at as the appropriate solution for them. Mr.

Reid: Can the minister tell me-last year I had asked-there was one vacancy for an eight-month period last year. Do you have any vacancies in this department, and are there any people that are seconded either in or out? Mr. Gille shammer: Well, we have eight positions. One is filled on an acting basis, and two others, action is underway to fill them. There are five others that are currently under review. Mr. Reid: So out of a staff this year, full-time equivalents, 25, you have eight- Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairperson, I am sorry, this is across the entire department. Was your question specific to one branch? - -

April 9, 19 98 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1481 Mr. Reid: I was asking just specifically to this part, and maybe to save time here, if you have information here today that you can provide that would save the step of me asking it all the way through the process with respect to vacancies and secondments, then perhaps you could provide that to me. If not, then I will ju st ask it in each area. I can ask you, are these jobs being filled by the Civil Service Commission? Have these jobs been put out for competition? Mr.

Gilleshammer: I am told that none are out for competition now, but some of them will be in the not too distant future. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me then where these vacancies exist and in which part of his department they are, so I can have an understanding, and when they may go to competition? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, there is a systems analyst in the Labour Management Services that is vacant. There are three positions in Mechanical and Engineering. There is one position in Conciliation and Mediation. There is one position in Workplace Safety and Health, and there are two in the Worker Advisor Office.

So that gives you eight. Mr. Reid: I missed the last number. Can the minister tell me, was it two in the Worker Advisor Office that are vacant? Mr. Gillesh ammer: That is correct. Mr. Reid: I have no more questions on this part. Mr. Chairperson: Item 1 1. 2.(

a) Management Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,033,30 0- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $324,600 -pass. 1 1. 2.(

b) Mechanical and Engineering (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,475,900. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me-l looked at your explanation in your document, in the Supplementary Estimates document, regarding the elim ination of the boiler inspector position. You had two vacancies last year. You have three vacancies now this year. You have cut one ofthe inspector's positions here. Yet you say that the purpose in your annual report is to avert hazards dealing with boilers, and yet you have cut a boiler inspector here.

Why have you cut this person who would perform tasks that would prevent accident or injury to members of the public or perhaps staff of facilities that would come in contact with such a structure ? Mr. Gillesh ammer: Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce Mr. Geoff Bawden, who is the Executive Director of Workplace Safety and Health, who has just joined us at the table. The question on staff deployment in this area is done by the executive of the department, and there is a feeling there that we have appropriate staffing in that area.

From time to time, within any department, staff are, I suppose, reviewed and moved to other positions, and I do not think there is an inconsistency in what we say is the important work that is being done and the number of staff years that have been dedicated to it. Mr.

Reid: Well, I look to the minister's annual report from '96-97, because that is the most current report that is available until the new one comes out, and you refer to delivery of services involving steam and pressure plant-related inspection, which, I would think, would be boiler inspectors who would be involved in those types of activities and perhaps others, and it says here, Potential Hazards Averted Numbers, and these are the numbers of risky situations detected by your inspectors.

It goes on to talk about 1, 553 risky situations that were detected by your inspectors, and yet you are cutting your boiler inspection program. I do not understand the logic here. If you have 1, 500 risky situations, are you going to be able to do the same number of inspections that you have had ongoing in past by your staff? Are you increasing the workload? Were these people not fully and actively employed in the past that would allow you to decrease by one, the safety inspector? * (1 540) Mr.

Gilleshammer: I am told that we did redeploy one individual from other duties and that we have the same number of people doing that function, and my executive feels comfortable that the inspections are

14 82 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 19 98 being carried out withou t public safety being jeopardized. Mr. Reid: Your Professi onal/Technical is down by one. I take it that is your boiler inspectors. Then, that being the case, are you going to be able to do the same number of inspections? Has there been a decrease? Maybe I should ask the question: Has there been a decrease in the number of facilities that you have to inspect as a part of your mandate? Has that function decreased? Mr. Gille shammer: I am told that we will have no reduction in the number of inspections this year. Mr.

Reid: The number of inspections, can you tell me what that number is, please, because your annual report only, I think, refers to percentages and hazards averted? I am not sure if that is a direct reference to the number of inspections, and there is one inspection for every hazard that is reported. Would you please provide me with the number of inspections? Mr. Gilles hammer: The number of inspections is of approximately 23 ,000 boilers. Mr.

Reid: At this point, I will take the minister at his word that there will be no public safety jeopardized as a result of his actions to elim inate one boiler inspector position, although I must say that with some caution and indicate that I hope nothing untoward happens as a result of inspections not being carried out or by workload being too onerous for the people that do that particular task to keep the public safe. Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, my honourable friend says he will take me at my word.

He sits there recognizing that my word is coming from my senior people here who tell me approximately how many inspections there will be and that there will be no fewer inspections, so I guess what he is saying is that he agrees with some reservations with what my senior staff are saying. I mean I am not in the field managing them, but when they tell me that they will do that number of inspections here at the table and I pass that on to you, I do so with the confidence that they do a good job and that I believe that they do what they say they do. Mr. Reid: I guess the buck does not stop at the minister's desk.

I guess that is the lesson that I have to take out of those comments: that whatever happens is the result of a decision that is made internal to the departmental operations. Yet, it is the minister, himself, who has his name attached to this particular budget document, so I have to say that the buck should stop at the minister's desk because he is the one that has authorized it under his signature. Mr. Gille shammer: Well, my honourable friend is changing the issue.

He said that he would like to believe me, and I am saying that this is the information that comes in our reports and from my staff I have no reason not to believe them, so I would like you to share the confidence that I have in my staff, and it is not a question of where the buck stops. The member said that he had some reservations about accepting the information. h is the best information we have at the moment, and it is the information coming from the people directly in charge of staff. Mr.

Reid: Will you or the department be sub contracting out any of the inspection work, or will it all be done internally in-house? Mr. Gilles hammer: We did not last year, but certainly if we are faced with some emergency situations or unexpected situations, we would reserve the right to do the most appropriate thing, to do the type of inspections that need to be done. Mr. Reid: So then I take it you must have a list developed for emergency situations of whom you would contact in various areas of the province to make sure that those inspections could be undertaken in a timely manner. Mr.

Gille shammer: What we are saying is we have some comfort around the fact that we could access some individuals, if they were needed, on a very short notice. Mr. Reid: You mentioned three vacancies for this particular sector. Can you tell me what functions those people did perf orm? - -

April 9, I9 98 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA I4 83 Mr. Gilleshammer: Two of the vacancies are called Clerk 2, and one is a Gas Inspector 2. Mr. Reid: I would take it then that the gas inspector-all the jobs are obviously important, but that the gas inspector, by way of public safety, is probably the most crucial of those three positions that are currently vacant. When do you anticipate that this particular job will be filled, or do you anticipate filling it in the near future? Mr.

Gilleshammer: I would concur with my honourable friend that probably the Gas Inspector 2 has a more direct role in the area of public safety than the Clerk 2, so we are in agreement on that. The intention would be to fill this in the near future. Mr. Reid: I take it then when you say the near future, we are talking through a competition through the Civil Service Commission, and that would take place through their normal process which would probably be before the summertime then. Mr. Gilleshammer: We would use the processes that are available to us in government to fill the position, Mr. Chaiperson. Mr.

Reid: Have you triggered those processes yet? Mr. Gilleshammer: Not at this time. Mr. Reid: When do you anticipate you will go to the commission? Mr. Gilleshammer: Shortly. Mr. Reid: All these statements, that does not give an indication or picture of when you anticipate it. Shortly could be I 0 years; shortly could be never. I guess it is all relative. I am just trying to get an idea here without jumping through all these hoops what your anticipation is. If you can say at the end of the budget year, all right, I am not going to argue the point.

I mean, you have some decision to make there, but I am trying to get an idea of when you say shortly, is there something in your way, something impeding you from sending this to the Civil Service Commission to have this job filled? Mr. Gilleshammer: Shortly, in my vocabulary, has never meant I 0 years, and I did not want to leave that impression with the member. One ofthe activities we have to look to is the redeployment list and see if there is anyone on the redeployment list who currently has the skills and has worked for government and would fit here.

Failing that, I would think in the next few months we will go to the next step. * (1 550) Mr. Reid: Because it ties in with the minister's answer, if someone comes from the redeployment list and does not have the full skill set to perform the necessary function, may have part of that, do you have a training process internal to this operation here, or do you send people out for training in this particular sector to make sure that their skills are current, to make sure they are familiar with the new equipment, new technologies coming on stream in the marketp lace? Mr.

Gillesh ammer: I am told that the individual would need a trade, but given that, I think there is the ability to cross-train people, and that could be looked at, but if the individual on the redeployment list has no trade and no background and no skills in this area, I would think they are not going to be selected. Mr. Reid: The second part of the question was with respect to training in your Mechanical & Engineering services. There may be-because it is not totally my trade area myse lf-some new changes that come along with the equipment and as new technologies come on stream in the marketp lace.

Because you have people who go out and do inspections, how do you keep these people current with their skill level? Is there some type of training that you provide for them? Do you encourage them, do you assist them with this training and upgrading of their skills to allow them to keep current? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told in recent times that we have established an internal training program to be sure that they remain current. Mr. Reid: Okay. Can you give me some kind of an understanding here, when you say redeployment list? Then with this budget year, no doubt any changes that

14 84 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 19 98 are anticipated to be taking place-! do not know for certain but I suspect may be happening early in the budget year-is that the time when you make the selection if possible from the redeployment list? What is the clearinghouse process here for people that you may want to look at for the filling of these vacancies? Mr. Gille shammer: The Civil Service Commission would be the clearinghouse. Mr. Reid: Can you tell me-there has been some discussion for some time about the expansion of the number of certified trades.

Is the department involved in that aspect of certifiable trades? Have you been involved in any discussions with respect to the expansion of these numbers and in the training that would be associated with those certified trades? Mr. Gille shammer: Mr. Chairperson, I think the member knows that the Training and Apprenticeship is lodged in the Department of Education. We have two staff from our department on what is called the Apprenticeship Board, and they have an opportunity through that vehicle to have input. Mr.

Reid: So then you are not aware of any expansion in the number of certifiable trades in the province at this time? Mr. Gille shammer: I am aware that there is some serious work being done on that right now, and I do not think it has been finalized yet, but I think our hope is that some of that will be completed soon. Mr. Reid: What is the department's position with respect to certification of additional trades? Have you taken a position to that particular committee meetings on what trade areas should be, or is this something else that is being totally directed by another government department?

Do you have any input into the process itself on what trades will become certified? Mr. Gille shammer: Again, this is being conducted within Education and Training. We are part of the process. We have not taken a final position on anything of that nature at this time, but we do have input through two staff members, and we sort of await the outcome of the process. Mr. Reid: I guess then I am better off to go to Apprenticeship and Training in Education Estimates and ask that question more directly to the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh).

Can you tell me then-last year I had asked this question, and I am ju st trying to keep current here because it had been drawn to my attention that from time to time people call in and say, I am living in this building and there is an elevator and the certificate is not current. I know we have had some discussion about this in the past about public safety, and the minister referenced a particular facility of seniors in his comm unity last year. Are you able to manage and make sure that the elevator certification process, the safety process, is current in the province here? Mr.

Gille shammer: We do have that responsibility within the department, and there is a cycle upon which elevators are inspected. Given the age and, I suspect, the history of some elevators, the inspection may be more frequent, but it is certainly ongoing work that our department is involved in. You are right, we did have an elevator in a seniors' block in Minnedosa, and there has been considerable work done on it in recent months. Mr. Reid: So then the elevator inspection program is current in that the certifications of these elevators is up to date.

I am just trying to get some assurance here that that is occurring. Mr. Gille shammer: Yes, again, we have ongoing work, and I guess it would be fair to say that if some of it is complaint driven, if there are elevators that are, through their use, through the people that use them we find out that they are having difficulty, there certainly can be more frequent inspection. But there is a cycle, and the work is being done. I do not know whether the member is suggesting it needs to be done more often or less often.

Yes, it is current, and I am reminded that sometimes the owner of the elevator does not always get the certificate put up at the appropriate time so that is again one of the logistics problems that occur. Mr. Chairperson : Item 11 .2.(

b) Mechanical and Engineering (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,475 ,900-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $428,000 -pass. -

April 9, 19 98 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 14 85 11. 2.(

c) Concilia tion, Mediation and Pay Equity Services Mr. Reid: Last year I had asked the minister for information relating to work stoppages which he gave me a history lesson on. Mr. Gille sbammer: Did I? Mr. Reid: Yes, you did. I appreciated the information that the minister supplied. Can you provide me with up-to- date information for this past year that I imagine would be coming out into your new annual report because I have the Annual Report 19 96/97? I am just looking for 19 97/98 information, if you have it available. * (1 600) Mr.

Gilleshammer: The information I have, I guess which is more current than last year. Do you have 19 96's? Mr. Reid: I think it is, yes. Mr. Gille sbammer: Maybe I will read it into the record anyway. In 19 96, there were 22 disputes. There were 7,275 workers involved, and there was 235, 560 person days lost. Going to 19 97, there were eight disputes involving 773 workers and 13 ,800 person days lost. Mr.

Reid: No doubt, I mean, we had some, what I think are experienced, people in the conciliation mediation areas which is no doubt a very difficult task, trying to bring parties to an agreement when they are sometimes very set in their ways. Do you have any kind of ongoing development for people in these two areas, or do you pull people in from other facilities, perhaps like universities or other provinces or jurisdictions that may have skilled people? How do we ensure that we have people that would have these particular types of skills? Last year we talked about Mr. Davidge leading the service, retiring.

He had a great number of years involved in this area. Do we have other people whom we have brought on stream who would have these skills? Do you have people under contract that do this type of work, or what is the process that we have? Mr. Gillesh ammer: The member from Transcona is absolutely correct. This is an area that does take expertise, talent, training, and experience, and we, I am told, rely on some national training that is available and also interchanges with other jurisdictions. I am told that last year there was an interchange with the government of Saskatchewan.

I suppose it is important to take that training and keep current . We currently have a vacancy, I believe, in that area that we will be filling soon. Mr. Reid: I should ask this question, because I am not sure whether or not Mr. Davidge's position was filled or who is in the capacity that he was. Can you tell me, this position that is vacant, how long has it been vacant and what was the function? Mr. Gille shammer: One other thing I should have added with my last answer is, we do have the ability to access other people on short term if we need them for specific circumsta nces. The vacant position is Mr.

Davidge's. Mr. AI Fl eury has been the acting director in recent months, and I am told the vacancy has been there for approximately a year. Mr. Reid: So, if Mr. Fl eury is the acting director, is this job going to be put out for competition, or is Mr. Fleury going to remain as the director? Are you going to make a decision soon on someone to head up this particular department? Mr. Gille sbammer: The recomme ndation from st aff is that the direction we will be going to is competition. Mr. Reid: Are people seconded in or out from the department at this part? Mr. Gille sbammer: I am told the answer is no. Mr.

Reid: One of the eff ects of Bill 26 is, and I am going from memory here, it changes the way costs of expedited arbitration are involved. Is that part of this particular conciliation-mediation services that are involved here and, if so, can you tell me what the effect has been with respect to the costs to the parties?

14 86 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 19 98 Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that we are not privy to that information. It is a shared cost borne by the two parties involved. Mr. Reid: So am I to understand then that the department supplies the mediation services or conciliation services for this particular type of process and then those parties would pick up the cost for that individual. Is that how this works? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, when our staff are involved there is not a cost, but when they go to the expedited process they are using people external to government. Mr.

Reid: So then, is it left to the parties then to determine who the arbitrator will be in those cases, for the expedited arbitration? Mr. Gillesh ammer: I am told that the parties can select from a list of available people and that they are responsible for the costs. Mr. Reid: How then are we able to determine what the cost impact has been to the parties as a result of the Bill 26 change? Mr. Gille shammer: I think this is the same question that the member asked a couple of minutes ago. We are not privy to that information and are unable to give you the figure. Mr.

Reid: So then government effected a change by way of legislation and we have no way of knowing what the financial impact is going to be on the parties? It is just something that was thrown out there, you take care of it now and there was no cost consideration given to the impact on those parties? Mr. Gillesh ammer: Well, the member is suggesting that government has been rather cavalier about this, and I do not agree with him. I think that the process is working. If the member wants us to try and quantifY that, what we are saying is, we have not at this stage because that information has not been given to us.

Maybe we could give him an undertaking to see if we could get some information and share it with the member. Mr. Reid: I would appreciate it if there is some way for you to quantifY that just to give us an idea of what the impact has been. If the minister could forward that along, I would appreciate that. I have no further questions in this area. Mr. Chairperson: Item 11 .2.(

c) Concili ation, Mediation and Pay Equity Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $427,70 0-pa ss;

(2) Other Expenditures $98,3 00-pa ss. 1 1. 2.(

d) Pension Commission. * (1610 ) Mr. Reid: Last year I had the opportunity to ask a number of questions with respect to Merchants Conso lidated, and I thank the minister and his departmental staff for supplying the information which I was able to forward to my constituents. This year I have looked at the information that you have supplied in your document, and I have some number of questions with respect to the Pension Commission's work and how it functions. I would like to know-I take it you do pension plan audits for where there are pension plans.

Can you tell me the number of audits that you would undertake or have undertaken in the last fiscal year, which would be I guess '97-98, and what the findings were of those audits? Mr. Gilleshammer: I would like to introduce Debbie Lyon, who is the Acting Superintendent of Pensions. I am told that last year we did four audits, and the work plan for the current or coming year is that we would do six. Mr. Reid: Of those four audits that were done, what were the findings? Was there full compliance with the legis lation or where there other areas that needed to have some further inspection? Mr.

Gilleshammer: I am told there were no major problems. I guess, it might be fair to say that part of the process is an education one as these audits take place, and that part of that education is through share inf ormation and have people perhaps do things better, but there were no major problems. - -

April 9, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 87 Mr. Reid: Of the information that you supplied in your Suppleme ntary Estimates, it talks about 300 plan amendments, I 0 plan wind-ups, 6 plan conversions, and 4 surplus refund requests. I will do them individually here. On the plan amendments, 300, it looks like a fairly large number. Is this something that was requested by the parties? Or what type of amendments are we talking to these plans? Structural changes, the type of plan that was involved, perhaps other information? I wonder what happens to them. Mr.

Gille shammer: This would appear to have been a normal work year. Many of the changes would be initiated by the employer, I suppose, in conjunction with the employee group from time to time. One of the things that would trigger more activity here is if there has been a change in the federal government's legislation, but the number indicated is par for the course. As the member knows, when collec tive agreements are negotiated, sometimes there may be changes that have to be noted. Mr.

Reid: It escaped me- yes, that could be part of the cause there, but I was not aware of any changes to the Pension Benefit Standard Act, federally speaking. So I am not sure how those changes come about unless there is something through regulatory matters through the federal government that would affect the pension plans. That may be the case. Mr. Gille shammer: One of the other acts that may impact here is the Income Tax Act and changes to it.

So, I guess, what we are saying is that if there are changes at the federal level, it may be the cause factor for changes that have to take place and are noted here and part of their business. Mr. Reid: Can you tell me: there were 10 plan wind ups? In those pension plans that were wound down, what happened with the funds that were involved there? Were these companies that went out of business? Were these employer-only sponsored funds? What happened with those pension plans? Mr. Gilleshammer: The typical example, I am told, is of small plans that are changed into an RRSP type of plan. Mr.

Reid: Did that happen in all 10 cases? Mr. Gillesb ammer: Not in all the cases, and we do not have the specifics, but if there is specific information that we can share with the member, more detail on those I 0, we could provide that at a later date. Mr. Reid: That would be fine. I am ju st trying to get an idea here what happened with those funds, and if they were rolled over into an RRSP system, I can understand the funds would be still available for the people. I just want to make sure that the people did not lose access to those particular funds if they had worked for that period of time to earn them.

I want to ask questions with respect to surplus fund requests. There were four surplus fund requests that came forward, indicated in your document here. What is the disposition of those requests? Mr. Gilleshammer: We do not have the exact detail, but it may be a sharing of surplus funds between the employer and the employee, but, again, if we can get more information on that we could share it. It has been pointed out to me, if you are working off the information on page 30, that this is the forecasted activity that would be taking place as part of the work plan for this budget year.

But is it fair to say that this is not an untypical year? This is similar to previous years and, in fact, there were two surplus refund requests last year. Mr. Reid: I understand what the minister is saying with respect to the Estimates document, but there are some numbers in here dealing with surplus refund requests. It is in your annual report. Mr. Gilleshammer: You are working offthe annual report? Mr. Reid: Well, I know the numbers are different between the two, but there were still the requests, and what I am trying to get at here is to find out what happened with those funds.

Who made the requests for those funds? Was there joint trusteeship in those particular pension plans? If not, who made the request for the return of the surplus, and were those requests granted?

14 88 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 19 98 * (1 620) Mr. Gil

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-29b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 29b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	fbd9633eeb60f090b4d1bb29fb65447cc6d897db

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