Manitoba Hansard — 30 September 1988 (Sitting 48, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-48

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No . 48 - 10 a.m., FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 30, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NA ME CONSTITU ENCY ALCOCK,Reg Os borne ANGUS, John St. Norbert ASHTON, Stave Thom pson BURRELL, Parker Swan River CARR,Jamea Fort Rouge CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights CHARLES, Gwen Selkirk CHE EMA, Gulzar Kildonan CHORNOPYSKI, Wi lliam Burrows CONNERY, Edward Hon. Portage la Prairie COWAN,Jay Churchill CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell DOER,Gary Concordia DOW NEY, Jamea Hon. Arthur DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER, Herold, L. Niakwa DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon.

Aiel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EVANS, Laurie Fort Garry EVANS, Leonard Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen Hon. Virden GAUDRY, Nail St. Boniface GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Ellice HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HELWER, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. lnkster MALOWAY, Jim Elm wood MANDRAKE, Ed Assi niboia MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, Jamea Hon. Brandon West MINENKO, Mark Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon.

River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denia, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gillea Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSK I, Bill lnterlake WAS YLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO,Iva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBER AL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIB ERAL LI BERAL LIBERAL LIBER AL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIB ERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBER AL PC LIBERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBER AL NDP LI BERAL PC PC LIBER AL PC PC PC PC PC LIBE RAL PC NDP PC PC LIBER AL LI BERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBER AL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, September 30, 1988. The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINIS TERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I have a statement for the House with copies for the Members opposite. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Filmon: lt is with great pleasure that I rise today to acknowledge that Winnipeg will be the location of a "World Centre for Sustainable Development." Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Filmon: This non-profit partnership -(Interject ion)- •

(1005) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I have recog nized the Honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Mr. Filmon: This non-profit partnership between the public and private sectors, in cooperation with other international institutions, such as the United Nations and the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis, will provide the framework for a new way of doing things-e specially in terms of environmentally sound economic development.

As a former Environment Minister myself, I am proud that both Canada and Manitoba have played prominent roles in adv ancing the principles of susta ina ble development and share the vision of positioning our nation at the front ier of the glo bal environment economic challenge. The Prime Minister and the federal Government have recognized our commitment to this challenge and the announcement yesterday before the Ass embly of the Un ited Na tions caps several weeks of intens e consultation and nego tiation between federal and provincial officials. Let me conclude, Mr.

Speaker, by saying something that many people, even some environmentalis ts, do not yet fully understa nd. Environmentally susta inable development is a bottom-line economic development initiative, a macroeconomic policy founded upon our belief that conservat ion pays.

Clearly, increasing resource efficiency at the level of an industrial plant or commun ity adds up to increas ing the efficiency and productivity of a provincial and national economy. 17 46 We are proud of this initiative, proud to forge a new partner ship with ind ustry and the worl d's lead ing environmental scientis ts, and proud to deliver on yet another of our innovative Throne Speech commitments. Mrs. Sharon Car stairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, while the Liberal Party welcomes any innovative centre in the City of Winnipeg and in the Province of Manitoba, we are somewhat skeptical of this particular propo sal perhaps for a numb er of reasons. First of all, we have great difficulty in understanding just what is meant by a "framework for a new way of doing things." We find that phrase particularly difficult to comprehend in light of the fact that we have an Environmental Minister (Mr.

Connery) in this province who does not seem to know what he wants to do about PCBs, what he wants to do about Rafferty-Aiameda, what he wants to do about water quality in the Red River. If we have all of those difficulties within this ministry, we wonder how they can possibly give the kind of positive support to this type of development that is required in this province. We are somewhat skeptical also about the detailed plans of this particula r Centre for Sustainable Development.

We do not know whether it is going to mean $5 million or $100 million and, even to Tory economists, there is a major difference between five and 10 0. In terms of the announcement, we note the irony once again that an announcement would be made about Manitoba outside of Manitoba, but of course we do know that since the CF-18 they certainly do not want the federal Prime Minister to come to this particular province to make an announcement about anything. So we hear about a park project annou nced in Saskatchewan. We hear about a project with regard to sustainable development made in New York.

We think that it is unfortunate that the future evolution of this province and this country could not be made and announcements of same made here within the province where that development is going to take place. We will wait with somewhat bated breath for the specific details. Regrettab ly, we will be into an election which will probably defer those specific details and, like so many things that we have heard in the past out of the mouths of the federal Prime Minister, we will wait and we will wait and we will wait and we may wait again. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we have had three world-class centres announced in the last three weeks. I think that is very positive. Many of them have been in the works for a number of weeks. Perhaps the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) of this province could phone the Prime Minister and ask him to postpone the federal election for another six weeks, and perhaps we could get the $700 million

Friday, September 30, 1988 that our taxpayers are going to have to pay to pay for the billions and billions and $14 billion with the promises that have been made in this country and Manitoba taxpayers will have to pay for. * (10 10) I find it rather unfortunate that the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) has chosen to ignore in radio interviews and other interviews this morning the fact that Mr. Lecuyer, the former Minister of Environment, indeed wrote the report and presented the report in the United Nations which was the forerunner of this centre.

He is quoted in the report as saying, "All Canadians have a major role to play in making sustai nable development a reality," that was presented to the United Nations a while ago. For the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) to pretend that he invented this issue on May 9, I think is quite hypocritical and unfair. On July 27, we asked in this House, we asked the Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery) who probably never heard of the term, and the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) why this Government could put in the Speech from the Throne a commitment to move on the round table which was due September 1, and why his Minister of the Environment had not met with one ma jor environmental group in this province to esta blish that round table. For this First Minister (Mr. Filmon) to stand up puppeting the words of Brian Mulroney about the environment and have his Minister of Environment (Mr.

Connery) who does not meet with one environment group to work in a cooperative way with business, Government, education, environmental interest groups, which is the concept of the round table, shows that this is just a public relations exercise with absolutely no substance whats oever. I would ask the Fi rst Minister (Mr. Filmon) to get a substantial approach and a subs tantive approach to this very important issue. I welcome the centre in Manitoba. lt follows on our tradition of dealing with these issues, and it certainly flows from the excellent report presented to the United Nations last year.

Certainly, we await the other $700 million in announcements that the First Minister has to make in terms of his ledger, in terms of what our taxpayers will be paying for. Hon. Cha rlotte Oleson (M inister of Communi ty Services): I want to table the Annual Report for 1987- 88 of the Manitoba Adviso ry Council on the Status of Women. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Cultur e, Heritage and Recreation): I have a ministerial statement. Today, Manitoba's Freedom of Information Act comes into force, fulf illing a comm itment made by this Government in our first Speech from the Throne.

The implementation of this Act is a long overdue step towards beco ming a more open, accou ntable Gove rnment. But of equal impo rtance is our determination to provide Manitobans with a wider access to Government information along with the kind of service they want and deserve. Serious preparation for proclamation began to take shape several months ago when I announced the plans of this Government to ensure its speedy implementation.

In de partments throughout the Government, civil servants responded to our challenge, and I am pleased with the commitment they have demons trated. * (10 15) The Fre edom of In formation Access Gu ide to Government Records, a publication designed to help people use the Act, has already been distributed to provincial and municipal Governments and to public libraries across the province. As well, departments and agencies have developed internal resource manuals, central administrative policies have been drafted, and staff have been trained to ensure prompt and efficient delivery of service.

The Freed om of In format ion Act was passed unanimously by the Leg islature more than three years ago, in July 1985, with its effective date to be set by Government proclamation. On behalf of my Government, I am honoured to proclaim for the people of Manitoba this landmark legislation. Today is an important day as we take this significant step toward greater openness and accountability in Government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr.

Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): lt is indeed a pleasure for me to rise today on behalf of the Liberal Party in Manitoba to indicate our support for this move by this Government. lt has indeed been a giant step in the right direction towards a more open Government. The principle of open Government is critical to the operation of the free and democratic society in which we live. Mr. Speaker, I think it is indeed critical to the success ful operation of the provisions of this Freedom of Information Act that requests for information be handled in a timely and user-friendly fashion.

As a new instrument, it may well indeed suffer some of the initial gl itc hes expe rienced by many new ini tia tives by Government. Although the Act is schedu led to be reviewed after three years by a committee of this Leg islature, I would urge this Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs. Mitchelson) and this Government to institute periodic reviews of the Access Guide, of the procedures, and many of the other matters set in place by this Act.

I would cer tainl y enc ourage the Government to perhaps look and conside r other jurisdictions and the experiences of those other jurisdictions to ensure that we do in fact have an open Government in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I applaud the Government for proclaiming The Freedom of Information Act September 30. I have Members of our caucus right now just chomping at the bit for items of information they were promised . I know that this will require a lot of work and a lot of cooperation on all Parties' behalf. As a former Minister in Government, I know that it was easy 17 47

Friday, September 30, 1988 to get the Urban Affairs material ready for the guide, but certainly I know that the Telephone System had a lot of work to do and I know ther e are other organizations that still have some work to do in terms of the Access Guide. I know that our former Minister, the Mem ber for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis), was very vigorous in trying to to get all the thousands of documents over the last 100 years ready so that, when it is proclaimed, indeed the access would be there to the public and others for this very important information.

We intend on seek ing information on the Rafferty Aiameda Dam and some other projects. I look forward to the potash initiatives of the Minister of Energy (Mr. Neufeld). We will be filing for those various bits of material and we look forward to the spirit of implementation as indicated by the Minister. I should point out as well, Mr. Speaker, that in a British parliamentary system of Government, a lot of things are put in writing in terms of going up the system to a Minister responsible to the House.

There have been some stud ies indicating that when a freedom of information comes into effect, there are a lot less things documented , a lot more things are done in a more circuitous way.

I think all of us have to cooperate to make sure that those measu res are not undermined by a different way in which Ministers receive advice from the public employees of the province. * (1 020) I certainly look forward to this. !t has been a long struggle to get thousands and thousands of documents on access, and we look forward to very, very helpful and accountable results with the proclamation of this Bill, and I do applaud the Gove rnment for th at proclamation. Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-Gener al): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the 1987 Annual Report of the Public Utilities Board , and I am extremely pleased to table in the House today the 1987-88 Annual Report of Manitoba's Reconstituted and Independent Law , Reform Commission. 1\ INTRODUC TION OF BILLS BILL NO. 30- THE STATUTE LAW AMENDM ENT (TAXATION) ACT Hon . Cl ayt on Manness (M in is ter of Fina nc

e) introduced , by leave, Bill No. 30, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1988. (Recommended by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.) ORAL QUE STION PERIOD Conflict of Interest Act House Members Mr. Paul Edwards (St . James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier (Mr. Filmon). In the Speech from the Throne, the Government referenced the need for stren gthening of the conflict-of-interest legislation in this province. One presumes that this commitment to strong conflic t-of-interest rules would be most strongly reflected in this Government's ranks.

My question is, does the Premier accept his Minister's active involvement in the day-to-day operations of private Manitoba corporations? Hon . Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I suppose that I would have to say that I require some specifics as to what the Minister calls an "active day-to-day involvement" in a Manitoba corporation. I believe that he knows that under our Conflict of Interest Act, a person is not prohibited from owning property, having an involvement in the corporation, having a directorship.

All of those things are declared, by virtue of the forms that each of us fills out, so that it is known to the public and no decisions that impact upon private corporation involvement does that person participate in. I believe that the Member opposite has done, as I have done in this House and stood up on particular issues, declared a conflict of interest in dealing with a particular issue and stepping aside from the discussion in this Cham ber. That has happened of course in Treasury Board , in Cabinet and in other discussions as well.

So really, leaving open that kind of an open ended sugges tion, I do not think does anything of any service in the House and, in fact, contributes to the kind of sleazy politics that I think are not appropriate to this House. If he would give us some information, I will be more specific in my response. Mr. Edwards: The Pr em ier (Mr . Filmon) is a businessman in his own life, knows full well what day to-day operation in the business community means. Mr.

Speaker, my further question for the Premier is, does the Premier know that at least one of his Ministers does in fact participate in the day-to-day operation of a priv ate Manitoba corpora tion, and tha t tha t corporation is shortly to be involved in a lawsuit in this province as a defendant, and is this acceptable to the Prem ier? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I have asked my Cabinet colleagues to vest with me copies of their forms that they have filled out with respect to The Conflict of Interest Act, and they have done so.

I have asked them to inform me of their day-to-day kinds of involvements with the business community, whether they be in a conflict of interest or not. I can tell you that many of my colleagues have their farms in a fam ily farm corpora tion and , if that involvement in that farm corporation on a so-called day-to-day basis-and I am not certain what he is referring to-cons titutes in his judg ment a conflict of interest , then let him make an allegation and let us have an opportunity to have a legal response to it.

I sug gest to him that what he is sug gest ing is a very serious matter and something that we take seriously. lt ought not to be done in a form of pol itical gamesmansh ip where you draw out the drama by saying a little at a time and trying to put somebody in a position in which they are judged by virtue of the manner in which he puts his quest ion. * (10 25) 17 48

Friday, September 30, 1988 Mr. Edwards: I think the people of this province know full well, I think- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Mem ber for St. James, with a supplementary question. Mr. Edwards: I am glad Mr. Premier has referenced the seriousness of this matter and this issue, and he knows full well, I think, the seriousness of this issue from being in Go vernment for many years. L•bour Legisl•tion Minister's Neutrality Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): My further question is to the Minister of Labour (Mr . Cannery).

Does the Minister agree that the job of Labour Minister requires that Minister maintain a neutral position between the interests of labour and management insofar as is possible so as to have the confidence of both side s in the labour relationship? Does the Minister recog nize that essential characterist ic of neutrality as being the essence of his job as he sees to the application and enforcement of Manitoba's labour laws? POINT OF ORDER Hon. Jame s McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

The way the Honourable Member has put his question calls for an opinion on the part of the Minister to whom he is directing his question. On that basis alone, his question should be ruled to be out of order. Also, the Honourable Member is coming dangerously close to the point of impinging upon the privileges of all the Members of this House by casting aspersi ons, or by putting a cloud over the heads of all Honourable Mem bers. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member's point is well taken. The Honourable Member for St. James, will kindly rephrase his question. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. Jame s): Mr.

Speaker, I remind the Honourable Attorney-General that there are six questions. I am not finished , and I certainly intend not to make these statements lightly. Agai n, for the Minister of Labour, I understand that I will be reasking my prior question. Mr. Speaker: Kindly rephrase your question. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Labour, will the Minister of Labour agree that the essence of his job, it is important to his job to maintain neutrality and the balance between labour and management in this province in his role as enfor cing the labour legislation of this province? Mr.

McCrae: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker: On a point of order. Mr. McCrae: The question, just like the last question, seeks an opinion and, Mr. Speaker, when Honourable Members repeatedly ask questions which are out of order, I think the time comes that they should either ask a proper question or no longer be recog nized to ask questions. Mr. Speaker: I thank the Honourable Attorney-General. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please.

I would like to rem ind the Ho nour able Mem ber that you are perilously close to raising a matter which is not within the responsi bility of the Minister. I would ask the Honourable. Member to kindly rephrase your question. * (10 30) Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): We have reviewed this matter very carefully and feel that it is within the responsibilities of the Minister to whom the question is being asked . Mr. Speaker: I thank the Honourable Member. Mr. McCrae: Your Honour has made a decision, a ruling, and the comments of the Opposition House Leader (Mr. Alcock) are a little out of place at this point.

They amount to perhaps a reflection on the ruling of the Chair. Mr. Speaker: I would lik e to thank all Honourable Members. Order, please. The Honour able Member for St. James, kindly rephrase your question. Mr. Edwards: I will rephrase the question yet again. I see, however, that the Min ister of Labour (Mr. Cannery) has been eager to answer both times. Is it Government policy that the Labour Minister maintain as much as is possible the role of neutrality between the interests of labour and management in his job in enforcing labour legislation in this province?

Portage Community Cablevision Employee Terminations Mr. Paul Edwards (St . James): Again for the Minister of Labour (Mr. Cannery), Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour has declared that he is presently a director and shareholder of Portage Community Cablevision Ltd. My question is, does the Minister of Labour actively participate in the business operation of that company, including the firing of employees? POINT OF ORDER Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Honourable Members should know that they are entitled to ask questions in this House on matters relating to the administrative capacity of the Government. This is not the place to go and deal with the personal dealings of Ministers, unless it has some bearing on the Ministers' carrying out of their functions as Ministers. So the question, Mr. Speaker, clearly does 17 49

Friday, September 30, 1988 not fal l within the ad min istrative capacity of the Government, unless the Honourable Member can put his question in such a way as to make things come together properly. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Government House Leader (Mr. McCrae). I would lik e to remind the Honourable Mem ber for St. James (Mr. Edwards) that the Honourable Member's question deals with a matter which is not within the responsibility of the Minister, which is a quote from Beachesne Citation 359(6). The Honour able Member for St. James, kindly rephrase his question. Mr. Paul Edwards (St.

James ): Mr. Speaker, I have in my possession, which I am prepared to table right now, three cheques, three termination cheques, with the Honourable Minister's signature on them. Th ese are dated Augus t 31, 1988. They are termination cheques finalizing the firing of Mr. Ben Smook of Aug ust �' 26, 19 88, by Portage Community Cablevision Ltd.

My question is this: is the Minister aware that this termination, which he has had an active role in including signing the cheques, is now going to be the subject of a lawsuit for wrongful dism issal in which the Minister personally, as the director who sig ned the cheques, will most likely be involved, and there is a very good chance as a witness. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I have cautioned the Honourable Member for St. James. The Honourable Member's question deals with a matter which is not within the responsibility of the Minister. Would the Honourable Member for St. James kindly rephrase his question? Mr.

Edwards: I will rephrase my question to the Minis ter. Does the Minis ter feel tha t his personal involvement in the firing of employees, which is going to be the subject of a lawsuit, has any impact on his ability to be the Labour Minister? � Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I have only been in this House for some two and-a-half years. I have seen a lot of scum dragged up, but I have not seen scum like this before. I am the vice-pre sident of Portage Com mun ity Cable vision. A Mr. Ben Smook was fired by the directors.

I was informed about the firing after it took place and, if he is saying that I signed cheques, Mr. Speaker, I can tell you that in our operation there are two signa tures required for cheques. Mine is the first one and they are put on in advance after it has come to the other person to sign it, who is usually Mr. lan MacKenzie, who does the second signing. So when that cheque was done, I sig ned a blank cheque in the sense that many companies do that. Mr. Speaker, I was not part of the firing but, after reviewing what the individual did, I concur that he was fired. Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to reiterate my question. However, I will rephrase it. Now that the 17 50 Minister has indicated his position in this matter, does he feel that his role in signing the termination cheques and I bring it to the attention of the House that there are, in fact, six directors. Tha t is a matter of public record. Two have sig ned the cheques, he is one of them. Does he feel tha t his role in the firing of employees, which will be the subject of a lawsuit, affects his role as Labour Minister (Mr. Connery)? Mr.

Speaker: I fail to see the Honourable Membe r's question, what it has to do with the responsibility of the Minister of the Crown. Now the Honourable Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) for a final time, would you kindly rephrase your question? Mr. Edwards: My question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). Is it appropriate behaviour, in his Government's view, for the Minister of Labour (Mr. Connery) to be actively involved in the contentious termination of employees from a private Manitoba corporation? Hon . Gary Filmon (Premier): The Member for St. James (Mr.

Edwards) may not be able to hear or may not want to hear, but clearly everyone in this Cham ber and every observer of the question and answer that just went on was told that he was not actively involved in any way with the firing of this employee. Is he now alleging that the Minister is lying? If so, let him put it on the table. Mr. Speaker, the Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards), in his desper ate attempt to get some attention, is enga ging in muckraking which has now fallen all over his face. He has been told clearly that the Member had absolutely no part to play in the dismis sal of that employee.

He is a signatory, as many people are. That is required under law to be a sig natory of cheques. On that his signature appears on the cheque, but he took no active role in the firing. Does the Mem ber for St. James need that repeated many more times before he understands that? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for St. James (Mr . Edwards), with your fina l supp lementary question. Mr. Edwards: I remind the Premier (Mr. Filmon) that his Minister also indicated that he did not deny he had sig ned the cheques and he did not deny that he concurred in the result. Need I say more? Mr.

Speaker, my final question is, given the Premier's earlier statements about conflict of interest , given his Minister of Labour's (Mr. Connery) earlier agreement with my sugg estion that it is absolutely necessary for him to remain neutral as far as possi ble, does he think that his Minis ter of Labour can continue as Minister of Labour, when he has played an active role in a termination which is now going to be the subject of a lawsuit? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I have ruled that matter out of order.

Friday, September 30, 1988 Environment Round Table Participants Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question too is to the Minister of Labour and the Environment (Mr. Connery). lt deals with the whole area that we raised on July 27 in this House, where we asked the Minister of the Environme nt why he had not met with any environmental group, in spite of the fact that on July 21 it was in the Speech from the Throne that we would be joining a round table.

Why has there been no consultation with many of the environmental groups dealing with many of the major environmental issues facing this province, including the establishm ent of a round table that is the essence of the sustainable economic development program that everybody is taking credit for today? lt is the essence of this sustai nable economic development group.

Why has he not met and consulted with the major environmental groups in a meaningful way, so that we could meet our target and deadline of Septem ber 1 for establishing this very important cooperative model between labour, Government, environmentalists and the economy? * ( 1040) Hon. Edward Connery (M inister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): The Mem ber knows that there was no September 1 deadline for announcing. Most provinces have not yet announced their round tables and are in the process of developing. The First Minister (Mr. Filmon) will announce the round table when it is appropriate.

The Mem ber knows tha t when the Manitoba Environmental Council was sched uled to meet, I was sched uled to speak to them, but I was in Ottawa at a meeting of the task force and I was not able to attend. But my deputy came home early from that meeting to ensure that he was able to present our concerns with them. Mr. Speaker, I talked to Mr. John Barker from the Manitoba Environmental Network yesterday to set up a meeting with them to discuss environmental issues. So while he says we have not discus sed with the independent groups, we have.

Our department has an ongoing discussion with the environmental groups and we will continue to discuss with them environmental issues we know need to be addressed that were not addressed by the previous Government. Participants Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, over 100 days have gone by since this Minister has been sworn in. He has not yet met and consulted with one or any of the major environmental groups in this province dealing with the round table. I would ask the Fi rst Minister (Mr. Filmon) if his Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) would not meet with health officials, or his Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) would not meet with education officials, or the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) would not meet with financial officials. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have a question? Mr. Doer: Would he find that acceptable and why does he find this standard of behaviour acceptable, in terms of the important environmental issues of this province? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I wonder if I can beg the indulgence of the Mem ber for Concordia (Mr. Doer) and have him repeat that question. Mr. Doer: I had trouble getting the

preamble in last time, but now you are ready for me. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber will kindly put his question now. Mr. Doer: I cannot hear you, Mr. Speaker, I cannot hear you. My question is and it is a very, very important question. The First Minister (Mr. Filmon) expects his Educ ation Minister (Mr. Derkach) to meet with school officials of all levels. The First Minister expects his Finance Minister (Mr. Manness) to meet with economic and financial officials at all levels. He expects the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae) to meet with justice officials. He expects the Urban Affairs Minister (Mr.

Ducharme) to meet with the City of Winnipeg. Why after 100 days, when the report recommends that the round table be established in September '88, does he find it acceptable stand ards for his Environment Minister (Mr. Connery) to not consult with one major environmental group in this province dealing with this important priority? Mr. Filmon: The Round Table on Environment in the economy involves many, many people and the work of many people. I might say that in his response to our earlier announcement about the World Sustainable Development Centre for Winnipeg, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) indicated that I had not given credit to the previ ous ad min istra tion for having participated in-a ctually he is on the environment that led up to that centre. For instance, in the

article that is in today's Free Press, it says and because I said it in the scrum that I had with news reporters, "Manitoba deserves the complex because its people, including initiatives of the former NDP administration, have built Wi nni peg into a centre with a strong inter est in industrial-environmental development." 1751 There are private sector people involved, there are people from environmental groups, there is the Fort Whyte Environmental Centre that all of us are proud of, many groups from many different areas of society who have a part to play in the development of this world centre and in the establishment of a Round Table on Environment of the economy.

We are interested in the views of all of them and indeed we have solicited views from many, many different groups. I am sure that the kind of initiative we will be undertaking will be acceptable to people right across this province, from all areas of society and from all groups in society. Rafferty-Aiameda Project Federal Environment Study Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Now I know why the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) is so

Friday, September 30, 1988 sensit ive about answering questions in this House. He does not answer them. I asked whether it is acceptable behaviour for a Minister of his Environment Department (Mr. Connery) to not meet with one major environmental group dealing with this priority. My question to the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) is, given the fact that the Minister of the Environment has stated there is no environmental damage to the Province of Manitoba under the Rafferty-Aiameda Dam, why will the Fi rst Minister not call for a federal environmental impact study on the Rafferty-Aiameda Dam, which is consis tent with the principles of sustainable economic development with environmental priorities? Why is it just rhetoric and not action on the First Minister's part? Hon . Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, consistently throughout the discussions on Rafferty and Alameda, our Gover nment ha s sa id, provided we get the assu rances of quality and quantity of flow that we are looking for downstream from North Dakota on the Souris River, there will not be environmental concerns. All of our efforts with respect to our negotiations, the meetings of the Technical Committee, the undertakings that they are pursuing, are for the assurances of quality and quantity that we have asked for. Under those circums tances, there will not be environmental damage and that is acknowledged by all those who look at the project.

Hudson Bay Mining & Smelting Upgrading Facilities Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Concordia, with a final supplementary question. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I will let the inconsistent comme nts of the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) on environment and his action be judged by Manitobans in terms of this very important project .

My question to the First Minister is, the sludge still remains on the boxcars in Flin Flon because they have not found an acceptable way to get rid of this allegedly non-problematic material up in Flin Flon three months later, and also the First Minister has received a letter from Huds on Bay Mining and Smelting urging action on the part of the provincial Government dealing with the upgrading of the smelter in Flin Flon. My question to the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) is, in light of the fact that we have sig ned the Acid Rain Agreement with the federal Government calling on some $12 million, I believe is the fig ure, for the upgrading of the Flin Flon mine and money from the federal Government- An Honourable Member: $120 million. Mr. Doer: - $12 0 million-w here is the action? His Ministers have met with the federal Ministers in May and June. Where is the action to deal with: (

a) the boxcar situation that still remains unsolved by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery); and (

b) the upgrading of Flin Flon that is so important as part of our national Acid Rain Agreement? Hon . Gary Filmon (Pr emier): Mr. Speak er, the Mem bers opposite expressed their concerns about the 1752 disposal of the material in Flin Flon at the smelter and, as a result, the Department of Environment has put it on hold until an acceptable solution can be found. Do you want us to have it processed in Flin Flon or not? Tell us- An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Filmon: Okay. Well then, it is not being done at this point in time until an acceptable solution can be found. Mr. Doer: We will stop the intershipments too.

Mr. Filmon: You are not in Government, you cannot do anything. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Doer: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), on a point of order. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, my point of order is that the conduct of the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) is unbecoming a Premier- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Doer: -and secondly, the only group that is not doing anything is the Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery). Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker, the Member knows full well that a stop order can only be issued by an official of Government, not by a Member of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I am trying to respond to the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer). Mr. Speaker: Apparently it is the Honourable Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery) who is attempting to answer that question. * (1 050) Mr. Filmon: The Leader of the New Democratic Party, if he followed the responses that have been given, the statements that have been made, would know that we are very concerned about the acid rain situation in Flin Flon.

I, in Flin Flon during the course of the election campaig n, made a comm itment that we would work cooperatively with HB M&S and the federal Government to fund a solution to that problem. He would know, if he knew anything about it, that it is not a $12- million initiative, that it is substantially more, and that we have been working on that initiative ever since we have been in Government. Mr.

Speaker, it involves more than just the provincial Government. lt involves HBM &S who, as the industrial party in this agreement, requires a very major input of capital themselves. lt involves the federal Government; it involves the province. We are doing our part.

Friday, September 30, 1988 Rafferty-Aiameda Project Senate Hearings Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): My quest ion is to the First Minis ter (Mr. Filmon). The Sena te Commit tee on Ag ricultur e and Forestry began its hearings on the Rafferty-Aiameda project yesterday morni ng. On Wednesday, I wrote to the Clerk of the Senate Commit tee, asking that I, along with the Member for Wolseley (Mr. Taylor), the Li beral Party's critic on Natural Resources and Environ ment of this province, appear before the comm ittee.

Can the Fi rst Min ister tell this House whether he has made a simil ar request and is he, along with his Minis ters and department staff, going to appear before the comm ittee to explain his Government's position on this project? H9n. Gary Filmo n (P rem ier): Last Friday, after the issue was raised about the Senate hearings on Rafferty Aiarneda, our Government imm edia tely con tacted the Senate in Ottawa to find out about these hearings. We were told on Friday that it was not certain that the hearings wou ld be held.

They followed up later, which was this wee k, and the y eventua lly were told on Wednesday that the hearings, late Tuesday or early Wednesday, were being scheduled for Thursday, which was yesterd ay. They were told tha t the re was no heari ngs contem plated for Manitoba. They were told that the focus of att ention was on the issuance of the federal licence, not on the downstream environmen tal effects or the environ mental assessment in Manitoba, and that the only people who were going to appea ring were going to be a r�resentative of the Saskatchewan Water Authorit y, Mr.

George Hill, a professor from Brandon and somebody from the Canad ian Wildlife Federation. We sent a representative who is part of the te chnical team from the Department of Natural Resources to monitor those hearings yesterday and to report back to us. Adverse Environmental Effects Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a supp lementar y quest ion to the Fi rst Minis ter (Mr. Filmon), George Hi ll, the President of the S askatchewan Crown corporation building the Rafferty Aiameda dam, yesterday said that there would be some $60 mill ion as a result of adverse environmental effects.

Can the First Min ister tell us how much Mani toba will receive of that $60 IT!illion? Hon. Gary Filmon (P remier): First and foremost , we as a Government are com mit ted to ensure that before any final app roval of that project is gi ven by the federal Government, any final sig n-off vis-a-vis our rights under the 1909 Bounda ry Waters Treaty Act, that we have assurances of downstream qualit y and quantity of water in the Souris River. That is our botto m-line position .

We are not in terested in ta lking about com pensa tion or damage until we get the assurances that we are looking for, and that is what we have been work ing on and that is what we cont inue to work on. Senate Hearings Mrs . Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Sp eaker, with a final question to the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon), in that Mr.

Hill said there would be a reduction of flow of water available to downstr eam users, including North Dakota and Manitoba, wou ld the First Min ister conta ct the Senate Com mit tee and ask for an imm ediate ap pearance by representatives of his Government, either the First Min ister or the Min ister of Natural Resources (Mr. Penner), so that Manitoba's int erests could be protected? Hon . Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, we had a full day of debate, a so-called debate of urgent public imp ortance in this House. lt was we ll understood, put on the table, that Sa skatchewan, under the 1959 Appor tionm ent Agreement, had the right to withhold half of the water that was contri buted to the watershed in Sask atchewan. That was put on the record. If they would like to read the debates , it is there. The average flow in the Souris River is 100 cubic feet per second. The fact of the matter is that it is not the average flow that is of concern. lt is the minimum flows.

We currently are entitle d to, I belie ve it is, 20 cubic feet per second in five months of the year.

So Saskatchewan holding back their portion of their flows in Saskatchewan does not necess arily mean that with the control st ructures in place we could not be assured of minimum flows that would satisfy our needs for qualit y and quantity downs tream in Manitoba. lt does not automatically say that the project means environmental problems in damage. lt means that we have to ensure the average flow is apportioned out so that we get at least 20 and we hope better than 20 cfs downst ream average flows in certain periods of the year to ensure that we overcome our concerns of quality and quanti ty.

PCBs Transport Safety Mr. Harold Taylor (W olseley): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Labour and Environment (Mr. Con nery). In early June this year, a gia nt U.S. Air Force C-5A Gala xy aircraft loaded with PCBs took off from Winnip eg International Ai rport . The source of these PCBs was from obsole te pine tree-line radar sta tions located at Gypsu mville, Si oux Lo okout, Ontario, and Beause jour . This exercise in volv ed pro vi ncial, in terp rovi ncial and in terna tional transporta tion of dang erous goods.

The question is, was the Min ister aware of this operation and does he know if the U.S. and Canadian milit ary followed proper procedures at all stages of preparation and shipm ent of the PCBs and the transformers? Does he know if any dangerous goods transport permits, including an export permit, were obtained for this movement over Manitoba's highways and air routes? Hon . Edward Con nery (Mi nister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): Mr. Speaker, part of that quest ion I will have to take as notic e because 1 do not have the full information on that.

As the Memb er should kno w, to transp ort any hazardous goods, it has to be manif ested and it has 17 53

Friday, September 30, 1988 to be flagged and it has to come un der federal jurisd iction to be app roved. So I will take that quest ion as notice and get back to the Mem ber. Mr. Taylor: I will be very inter ested in hearing that response. Mr. Sp eaker, does the Min ister know how many more simil ar flights are planned and what role will Winni peg Airpor t play as a trans shipment centre for PCBs and other hazardous mat erials? Mr. Connery: Mr. Speak er, at some point in time, I think we have to address the issue of scare tactics developed by the Mem ber for Wolseley (Mr.

Taylor), and I am sick and tir ed of it, Mr. Sp eaker. We have talked about PCBs in this House and PCBs are a concern. The boxcars that were talked about by the Member were not a hazard to the people of Man itoba or to Transcona. Air Canada has not moved any PCBs out of Winnip eg . Mr. Taylor: How do you know? Mr. Connery: The Member for Wolseley (Mr. Taylor) says how do I kn ow. Because we inquir ed, that is how we know, Mr. Sp eaker, we inquir ed. Air Canada has not and does not intend to move any PCBs out of Winnip eg on any of their airpla nes, whether it be cargo or passenger.

PCBs-Safety and Storage Manitoba Hydro Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Member for Wolseley, with a final supp lement ary question. Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): We were speak ing of milit ary flights to begin with. Can the Min ister tell the Hous e how many tran sformers are st ill in active use with Manitoba Hydro that st ill contain PCBs, and how long will it be before they are phased out of service?

Most im portant ly, is the Minis ter aware that the warn ing stick ers on the same transformers easily come off due to wea thering, which means that service and emergenc y crews will be unaware of what they are dealing with? * (1 100) Hon. Edward Conner y (M inister of Environment and Wo rkplace Safety and Health): Mr. Sp eaker, the numb er of units can be obtai ned. As the Member well realizes, even in this building, there are ballasts with PCBs in and they will be phased out over a period of time. PCBs that are in operation are not a hazard to the publi c, and the Member for Wolseley (Mr.

Taylor) is continuin g to try to terrify people about PCBs. We are, as a department, ensuring that there is safe storage and safe handling of PCBs. I had a meet ing with Man itoba Hyd ro to discuss the PCB situation with the material that they have on stream right now. Some of those units would take 20 years before they run through their life span . The concern about PCBs, while it is relevant and is serious, has been totally blown out of proportion by the Member for Wolseley (Mr. Taylor) who knew, before the tragic fire in Quebec, about the PCBs in the boxcars and made no mention. The Member for Ni akwa (Mr.

Herold Driedger) knew about it over a year before and made no mention of those things. Our department is very concerned about PCBs, and we are ensuring that all locations of PCBs are reported to us and we will make sure that they are stored safely. Social Assistance Minimum Standards Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Sp eaker, I wo uld like to address a question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of our province with respect to the situation regard ing social assis tance in Mani toba. Unemployment, regrettab ly, is grow ing in the province.

We have 3,000 more people out of work toda y than a year ago and, when they run out of unemp loyment insu rance, often people go to munici palitie s to seek welfare. We do have a fragmented system of welfare in this province, causing many people to have to move to the City of Wi nnip eg or Brandon to seek social assistance. During the election, the Premier stated a Conservative Government wou ld regulate mun icipal ities to assure a basic minimum standard of welfare assistance.

My quest ion to the Minis ter, is it st ill the Government's in tention to proceed to regulate munici palities to meet certain basic minimum standards, and will he be prepared to move on this matter this year? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Sp eaker, that is st ill our goal and our objectiv e and, in order to ensure that such a plan and a propo sal is imp lemented in concert and in full coopera tion with the municipal jurisdictions, we are un dertaking a round of nego tiations- not negotia tions, actually consulta tions and discussions with people from UM M, MAUM, and all of the various affected munici paliti es. Some of the dis cussions have already been undertaken in a prelimi nary form.

Others are going to be more formally undertaken as our Min isters have time to go out and meet with the se various organizat ions, unlike the Member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) who, when he was Minis ter , imple mented a polic y without any consulta tion whatsoever, im posed it on these municip alitie s, and it was a failure because of that. Mr. Leonard Evans: I reject categ orically the last sta tement because there was consulta tion, and inde ed there was a resolution asked by the Union of Manitoba Municipal ities at one point urging us to do this. Mr.

Sp eaker, my quest ion is, would the Government reconsider the regulation method that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) prop osed during the elect ion and is st ill considering ina smuch as assuming that regulat ion is 1754

Friday, September 30, 1988 going to in crease the cost for the municip aliti es as wel l? Knowing the fact that there is inde ed a lot of problem inv olved in regulating municip alit ies, sett ing up an effective polic e force perhaps wi thin the department, will the Premier reconsider the regulation method and reconsider a one-tier system and do what seven out of ten provinces in Canada do and take the full responsi bil ity for social assistance? Particul arly, I say that with regard to the additional cost involved in muni cipal expen ditur es. Mr.

Filmon: That is a long rambling and somewhat hypothetical question because he said, assuming that it will cost more money for the mun ici pal jurisdictions, and all sorts of ifs, ands, and buts. Having said that, Mr. Sp eaker, let me say that we want to seek the best solution on behalf of those people who unfortuna tely must turn to social assistanc e in our province.

We want to have a solution th at is fair, balanc ed and reasonable, that ensu res that they are entitled to live in digni ty on social assistance, and that we do so in consultation with those muni ci palit ies who are currently delivering the Social Assistance Program as well as all others int erested in the case. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), with a final sup plemen tary quest ion. Mr. Leonard Evans: Will the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) also con sider consu lting with the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organ ization and the various church groups who have very serious concerns about perhaps what is one of the most serious problems of social injus tice in this province? Wi ll the Government, if in deed it does proceed with the regulation method, be prepared to pick up the additional cost that the munici palit ies may be faced with in this matter? Mr. Filmon: My Min ister of Com mun ity Services (Mrs.

Oleson) has already met with various of the groups that he mentions, including the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organ ization, to discuss with them all of their concerns abo ut Go vernment pol icies, funding and so on. (lnt erjection)-In response to the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), no, we have not cut them off. They are gett ing their additional funding, their grant, as they have in the past. Mr. Sp eaker, I do not kn ow why, when articles are written about heckling in the House, my name is the only one promi nently mentione d? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr.

Filmon: Just as in the way we conduct our Government, I am just looking for fairness and balance. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The time for oral questions has expi red. NON-POLITI CAL STATEMENTS Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, I would ask le ave for the Ho use to make a non-politi cal stat ement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks have leave? (Ag reed) Mr.

Minenko: As a mem ber of the Canadian Arm ed Forces Medical Services Reserves, who was selected to serve as a peacekeeper, it is in deed an honour for me to rise in the Mani toba Leg isla ture to join with many others around the world in congr atulating the Un ited Nations Peacekeeping Forces for the awarding of the Nob el Peace Prize to them for the service which they provided to maintai ning world peace. Sin ce 19 49, Canada has

part ici pated in every peaceke eping force assem bled by the Unit ed Na tions. Mem bers of the Canadian Arme d Forces have partici pated in maintai ning peace in count ries from around the wo rld, including the Domin ican Republic, Zai re, Egypt, Afg hanistan, Korea and the Cypress. Canada's service for world peace has been costly , not only financially but also in terms of human lives. Cana dian statesmen and women have also played a great role in att empting to maintain world peace.

On No vember 3, 1956, the Right Honourable Mike Pearson intr oduced a resolution at the Unit ed Na tions during the Sue z crisis for, and I quote from his remarks that day: "The im mediate purpose of our meeting is to bring about, as soon as possi ble, a cease-fire and a withd rawal of forces in the area which we are considering from con tact with each oth er." - (Int erjections )- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member is attem pting to make a non-political stat ement. I see numerous conversat ions throughout the Chamber.

We do have room on the outside of the Chamber if Honourable Members would like to carry on their discussions. Mr. Minenko: For his act ions, this Canadian sta tesman was also awarded the Nob el Peace Prize. I wou ld ask all Members of the Manitoba Leg isla ture to join with me in offering our congr atu lations and a "w ell done" to all past , present and future mem bers of the Un ited Na tions Peacekeeping Forces. Mr. Bill Uruski (lnterlake): Could I ask leave to associate ourselves with the remarks of the- Mr. Speaker: Does the Hono urable Memb er for lnterlake (Mr. Uruski) have leave? (Agreed) Mr.

Uruski: Our group too would lik e to associate ourselves with the fine remarks made by the Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Min enko) dealing with Canada's in terna tional role in peaceke eping. lt is very clear that the ens ign, the Canadian ensign on luggage, and on the role that peaceke eping has kept is a very strong sym bol that is exhibited by and world-renowned in terms of the fairne ss and the compassion tha t 1755

Friday, September 30, 1988 Canadians worldwide are recognized in the role of peacekeeping that has been very clear for the many years. We, on this side , wish to associate ourselves with the remarks and pay tribute to those who have spent many years on peacekeeping in various European and Asian countries , and we want to pay tribute to those who will come after them as well. Mr. Harry Enns {Lakeside): It is my privilege to respond on behalf of the Government Members- Mr. Speaker: Order. Does the Honourable Member for Lakeside have leave? (Agreed) •

(1110) Mr. Enns: With the indulgence of the Honourable Membe rs opposite, if I have leave to do so, I associate Members of the Government with the sentiments expressed by the Members of the opposing Parties , the Liberal and New Democratic Parties. Certainly, Mr. Speaker , we can all take pride in Canada 's continuing role, supportive role, of United Nations through times when United Nations has not always lived up to the expectations of the world , you might say.

Certainly , we have high expectations of this organization, but we do recognize and we do support the role of the United Nations as being the forum that brings reason and sanity to the affairs of mankind in this world, this troubled world. I think we can be very proud of our particular contribution, very often in excess of our numbers in terms of the size of our country , in terms of our, I suppose, numerical strength, that we have been able to use our position in world affairs with the kind of decisiveness, particularly in the area of peacekeeping role, that we have in the past.

So this current venture on the part of those representatives of ours , of all of us, who are trying to bring about and maintain the peace in a very fragile and volatile part of the world ought to be acknowledged the way it was, and I congratulate the Liberal Member for bringing that to the attention of this Chamber by • all Canadians throughout this country . ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae {Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker , would you be so kind as to call the Bills as listed on page 2 of today's Order Paper, and also Bill No. 27, listed at the top of page 3?

DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS BILL NO. 6-THE FIRES PREVENTION AMENDMENT ACT Mr. Speaker: Debate on second readings, on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery) , Bill No . 6, The Fires Prevention Amendment Act ; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la prevention des incendies , standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) . (Stand) BILL NO. 8-THE COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH SMALL CLAIMS PRACTICES AMENDMENT ACT Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General (Mr. Mccrae), Bill No. 8, The Court of Queen 's Bench Small Claims Practices Amendment Act , standing in the name of t he Honou rable Member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans). (Stand) BILL NO. 9-STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT (RE-ENACTED STATUTES} ACT Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General (Mr.

Mccrae) , Bill No. 9, Statute Law Amendment (Re-enacted Statutes) Act , stand ing in the name of the Honourable Membe r for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). (Stand) BILL NO. 11-THE CHILD CUSTODY ENFORCEMENT AMENDMENT ACT Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General (Mr. Mccrae), Bill No. 11, The Child Custody Enforcement Amendment Act ; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur !'execution des ordonnances de garde , standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). (Stand) BILL NO. 14-THE REGULATIONS ACT Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney -General (Mr. Mccrae), Bill No. 14, The Regulations Act;

Loi sur les textes reglementaires, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) . (Stand) BILL NO. 15-,-THE COOPERATIVE PROMOTION TRUST ACT Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General (Mr. Mccrae) , Bill No. 15, The Cooperative Promotion Trust Act ;

Loi sur le fonds en fiducie de promotion de la cooperation , standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans). Mr. Leonard Evans {Brandon East) : I would like to make a few remarks.on this Bill which generally is one tha t we can support given the fact that the New Democratic Party and , before it, the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation, has long been devoted and concerned with the promotion of the cooperative movement.

Indeed the name " Cooperative," I guess I should remind some people was in the name of the CCF, the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation , the Party that was the predecessor to the New Democratic Party. It goes without saying, therefore , that we are very keen on seeing any legislation that would enhance the co-op movement in this province. We do have regrets , however, that the Government has seen fit to, in effect , downgrade the co-op initiatives, 1756

Friday, September 30, 1988 in our opinion, in this province. They have downgraded the initiatives by having a Minister responsi ble for various departments, the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae) being resp onsible for Consu mer and Coop erativ e Affairs, responsible for the A-G's Department, including Corrections, and also this department. I do not know how you can give the same amount of attention to wha t we consider to be a very vital department if you have a Minister who is engaged in other responsibilities and other duties.

I know that when we were in Government, we had a very com petent Minister of Co-op Development who ded icated a great deal of time to the co-op movement, to the depar tment, and came up with a number of initiatives. The present Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) was indeed a very activist Minister of Co-ops. I know he met many, many people in the co-op movement and indeed in the cred it union field as well, which is obviously a form of co ops, and had a lot to do with many new initiatives that were taken by the New Democratic Party Government.

We do, therefore, regret that in effect this department has been downgraded. In principle, we have no difficulty with the Bill. The objects of the board are straig htforward.

I can see the proposal is that it assists in the development of co-op organizations, to encourage cooperation among co-op organizations-tha t is a rather different twist, encourage cooperators to coo perate -to exam ine co-op organizations and laws related to co-op organizations in Manitoba and elsewhere, to promote the general welfare of co-op organiza tions in the province, and to promote the general welfare of rural residents in the province. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, it is in rural Manitoba where the co-op movement has played a sign ificant role, maybe more so than in larger centres.

I know that many small towns in Manitoba simply would not have adequate retail facilities if it were not for the co-op movement. I look at many small towns where, for whatever reason, Safeway or Supervalu choose not to go to. Obviously, it would seem not to be profitable for these larger companies, Safeway or Supervalu, to go into the small towns, whether it be Minnedosa, Neepawa, Virden, Souris, Birtle or whatever. They are looking for maximization of profit and they get that by going into the large centres only- Winnipeg, Portage, Brandon and so on.

So if you go to a small town in Manitoba and if you want to see a half-decent size retail outlet, it will likely, 99 times out of 100, be a co-op store. Also in rural Manitoba, you will find invariably in most towns a co op gas oline outlet. Indeed , you have co-op lumber outlets and very basic services. Many basic services, therefore, are provided by the cooperative movement in rural Manitoba.

I am not sug ges ting they do not play a role in the cities as well but their prominence is seen in rural Manitoba, and indeed th ey are a co-op movement in the true sense that there is participation by people in the community at elections, on the boards and so on. They make decisions in this area to develop their community through the vehicle of the co-op. I was involved in my own area last winter in trying to encourage people to form a cooperative in order to tackle the question of unduly high prices of gasoline in the City of Brandon.

Indeed , for whatever reason, the City of Brandon had gasoline prices that were much higher than not only Winnipeg, but were much higher than surrounding smaller towns and no one could seem to get the explanation as to why the major oil companies, through their outlets, were charging 3 cents, 4 cents, 5 cents a litre more than the town 10, 15, 20 miles away, and certainly much more than the City of Winnip eg. The conclusion wa s-1 arr ived at the conclusion that there was simply a lack of competition.

For whatever reaso n, ma ybe an unde rsta nding, unwritten-and I am not sugges ting collusion although there cou ld ha ve been -b ut there was simply an agreement, it see ms, that the price would stay high. Ther e were no differences in the prices. Every station had the same price and the people of the community were very, very exasperated. * (1 120) lt is no wonder then that when I called a public meeting to discuss the subject, we had standing room only in the hall. My only regret about the meeting was that we did not get a large enough hall to house everybody.

As I understand, we had people leaving because they could not get into the doors. But this was a move to utilize the co-op method to deal with the extraordinarily high price of gasoline, the unfair pricing of gasoline in the City of Bra ndon. Out of that meeting -a nd incidentally that meeting was attended by the Depart ment of Coo perative Development who gave us a lot of technical advice and advised how there was a program put in place by the former Minister to enable small co-ops to be established throughout Manitoba to get into the business of selling gas oline, to bring about more competition.

Of course, there was a very major problem in northern Manitoba where you have a high cost of transport and, again, a very unsatisfactory situation with regard to high gasoline prices. But nevertheless, because of policies brought in by the former Government, by the former Minister to promote gas bar cooperatives, the officials from the department were able to tell the audience that there were indeed programs available to encourage the formation of a gas bar cooperative.

We found out that there were loan monies available that were dedicated by the former Government at favourable terms to would be gas bar cooperatives. There was certainly a lot of legal and technical advice available and in addition, through the Northern Co-Op Services Ltd., it was possible to make available a source of gas oline at a price that would enable the co-op - (I nterjection)- Well, I have been listening to the Member for Arthur (Mr. Downey) for a long time and I know how gas arises in this Cham ber. But that was a critical part of this gas bar co-op. They had to have a source of supply.

Indeed , one was identified and I believe that some of the communities-! stand to be corrected . Maybe the Minister of Northern Affairs knows that these communities in northern Manitoba are supplied through the Northern Co-Op Services Ltd., which enables those people to get gasol ine at a little better price and maybe a great deal better price than they would have otherwise. 1757

.,, Friday, September 30, 1988 Those were the programs , this was the program that was made available . The staff explained it to the members of the audience and , out of that , came a committee to look at establishing a gas bar co-op . We had no shortage of volunteers and this was cooperation in action . It was a grass-roots thing and they got together , formed a committee , and eventually out of that came a board and an executive group and an application to be set up on an interim basis as the Brandon Gas Bar Cooperative.

A lot of work was done, and these are people from all walks of life who did indeed cooperate. They were , in the true sense of the cooperative movement, looking at serving the community . They were not interested in sort of maximizing profit for the group . That was not the intention , of course. The intention was to provide some competition in the retail gasoline market in Brandon to bring down the price of gasoline . A lot of progress was made . We had people who had some expertise in land zoning . We had people who had previously been in the gasoline retail business in other communities .

We had people from all walks of life farmers, workers and so on. Together they formed a committee. They worked , they met many a time , consulted with the officials . They got going, they started to advertise and so on. It became well known in the community that a serious effort was under way to bring in gasoline likely at about 4 cents a litre less. It seemed to be about 4 cents a litre less than the prevailing gasoline price at that time . But lo and behold, not long afterwards, the price dramatically dropped. We cannot tell for sure why the price dropped dramatically.

In fact it dropped dramatically and became lower than that which prevailed in the City of Winnipeg. I would like to think that one reason was the fact that there was going to be some competition, and it was going to be real and it was going to be meaningful in the sense that the price was likely going to be 3, 4, maybe even 4.5, 5 cents per litre less than was being offered . The prices dropped; the Gas Bar Co-op exists. They are in a holding situation at the moment waiting to see what happens because the price did come down .

It has gone up again a bit although it is still less then what it is in Winnipeg today, I can advise you . I think that this is an example of where Members of the community, being unhappy with what the private sector as we know it was offering , were prepared to cooperate and try to cope with a serious situation . I think sometimes we do not realize how important the price of gasoline is to the average family; people are very aware of it. You pay it at the pump and it is certainly higher than it was many years ago. We depend on the automobile to a large extent.

We are dependent on private transportation, and therefore the price of gasoline is a very critical factor . I say any Government who chooses to raise taxes on gasoline must do so with some trepidation because people are very, very sensitive to this form of tax. At any rate, people cooperated . They were going to promote this Gas Bar Co-op . They have it in place and it is ready to go. It is in a holding pattern, however, at this present time, but the point being that everyone would have benefited by this, not the people who formed the co-op, but everyone who would then deal with the co-op outlet .

In the true spirit of cooperation, everyone who chose to become a membe r subsequently-it would be open to anyone who wanted to join-would get the benefit of that lower price. They would get it on the spot. The meeting was attended by a very key person in the co-op movement from the City of Thompson . The City of Thompson has had a community gas bar co op for a few years now. It has been successfu l in bringing down the price of gasoline. So they heard from that individual and he explained how they got organized and so on. So I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that the method of cooperation is indeed active and alive in the Province of Manitoba . I think it is incumbent upon provincial Governments to do everything and anything they can to help people help themselves because we are not talking about Government bureaucracy, we are not talking about state enterprise, we are not talking about any Big Brother operation, we are talking about operations of the people and for the people. So anything that enhances the co-op movement in this province, I suggest, is welcomed by our Party, and I believe it is welcome by all persons in the House, all Members of the House.

What I do regret however , Mr. Speaker, is that somehow or other the department has been downplayed by the fact that it has only a part-time Minister . I think the co-op movement and promotion of cooperatives is such that we should have a full-time Minister . When I say that I would have thought the Members opposite , many of whom are from rural Manitoba, would be very sensitive to this because it is in rural Manitoba where co-ops have played a very significant role. •

(1130) I would say we do not have any great difficulties with the Bill, but I wanted to put on record our disenchantment with the diminishing or diminution of the department of- Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): And your support for the co-op movement. Mr. Leonard Evans: I beg your pardon? Mr. Cowan: And your support for the co-op movement. Mr. Leonard Evans: Of course , I wanted to take the opportunity as I have been for the last while . I am glad some people have been listening to me. I usually like to quote statistics and refer to numbers and so on.

I do not have them with me but I am sure the record is great.- (Interjection)- The former Minister reminds me that the growth of the co-op movements exceeded the growth of every other sector in the province . Seriously, in terms of the statistics we have been bandied around - only that part because I do not have the numbers so I do not know whether I can be serious about certain numbers that are being thrown at me here by the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan). But 1758

Frid ay, September 30, 1988 indeed my remarks are serious that I throw a bouquet to the- Mr. Cowan: Tha t is it, the last time I throw information at you! Mr. Leonard Evans: As an element, I migh t add, I am very proud of the fact that our Government, the previous NDP Government, did assist the credit union movement in a very substantial' way when it had some difficulties in the early Eighties, early 1 980s, in fact a very serious situation. The New Democrat ic Party Government at the time did indeed bail the cred it union movement out in this province of a very, very serious situation.

I am proud of the fact that we were able to act positively, decisively and to avoid what could have been a very serious crisis throug hout the cred it union movement in the province. With those few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I will sit down and listen to anyone else who has something to say. I think everyone should take an opportunity, even if it is for a couple of minutes, to say something about the co-op movement. I think it really deserves- Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern AHairs): Tell us about Pool Elevators and the United Grain Growers and some of those things. Mr.

Leonard Evans: Look, there are other co-op sectors besides retail. I have only been talking about the retail movement. Certainly the co-op movement in the grain distribution field has been very sign ificant. lt has been very fundamental- Mr. Cowan: Also the co-ops in Brandon , that beautiful housing co-op we built in Brandon. Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, yes, I am being reminded there by the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) there are Pools, the Pool Elevators.

Ther e is a major effort by farmers using the co-op method to ensure they have adequate handling of grain and ensure that they get as great a return from the distribution and sale of grain. The Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) reminds me of the housing co-op movement. I would say again that this is an opportunity for people to work in cooperation to get something done. I want to use another example. I am glad the Member for Churchill reminded me because I can use the examples.- (I nterjection)- He is a great speech writer.

I can use the examples in my own community he gave me because I happen to be familiar with a lot of these developments. Ther e are major developments on the North Hill of Brandon, some very sign ificant apartment dev elopments tha t have fil led the need to supply housing in the City of Brandon and at a reasonable rate. 1 know many of the people who live in these dwellings. They are comfortable and they are very happy that through the Co-op Housing Program, and I guess this is including the Department of Ho using -the Department of Housing has been involved in this there is a specific program for Housing Co-op.

The work, I know, in cooperation with the Department of Co-op Development, which provides a lot of technic al assistance, a lot of encouragement, a little bit of CED money and so on, that they were able to get a couple under way. I want to refer specifical ly, however, to one that was very unique and is unique, and that is the establishment of a senior citizens' cooperative in Brandon at the site of the Fairview Perso nal Care Home. There was a building there.

As you know, there was a $ 10 -million extension to the existing personal care home at Fairview about a year and a half or so ago, and some of the old st ructu res were desig nated to be destr oyed . However , it was point ed out tha t one building in particular had some value. There was a bit of conflict between various people on the board of the Nursing Home, the City Council and others on the use of this building.

However, we were able to ask the Department of Housing to take a quick look at the viability of turning that building into a small apartment for seniors, because the seniors for Seniors Co-op in Brandon had expressed an interest in using the building for a small co-op, about 30, 31 suites. We got a quick response. Yes, indeed there was some viability about this, so we managed to hold up the destruction of the building and had a very hard look at it. Engineers looked at it and, lo and behold, in not too many weeks we were able to get the board of Fairview to back away from destroying it.

With the cooperation of the Mayor and the City Council of Brandon we were able to proceed, because there had to be some land transfers from the city as well. This is near the fire station there-some of you may be familiar with the new fire station-a nd we were able to put the pieces together. But the point I am making is that here is a group of seniors who use the co-op legislation that we have. They were for promoting co-op for the benefit not necessar ily of themselves, but for people, the seni ors in the commun ity. As a matter of fact, it has gone along very well.

The people in the co-op will be paying for it. The people who live in the apartment will ultimately be mem bers of the co-op. lt is a loan that they got from the Government. lt is at favourable terms as the co-op loan provisions are. Ther e is no federal money in it. As I understand, it is strictly provincial loan money for cooperatives. The building is just about completed. In fact, it is completed and we are going to have an official opening in the very near future.

Here is a living example where a group of seniors use the co-op movement to approach everyone concerned and say we want to do something with the building, we want to enhance seniors' housing and indeed they have. So that we are now getting 30, 31 beautiful suites, a beautiful apartment block in a very good loca tion for seniors at a favourable rate. lt is their building. The people who live in it are members of that co-op. They will appoint their board, they will make the decisions. Ultimately, they will be paying back that loan over a period of time.

I was very remiss in the beginning of my remarks talking about the promotion of co-ops only in the area of retail business. As important as that is to rural Manitoba, in particular, we should not forget the fact 1759

Friday, September 30, 1988 that the co-op movement played a very sign ificant role enhancing the lives of farmers in this province, ind eed throughout Canada, wheat pools in parti cular. We should not forget that even in the area of housing, that we have done some great thi ngs in this province. I would only hope that the Governm ent will see fit to carry on doing whatever it can to encou rage and help people who in deed want to use the cooperativ e me thod to impr ove their li ves, the liv es of the commun ity, inde ed enhance the quality of life in the Province of Manitoba.

Thank you very much for your patience in li st ening to my remarks in this respect . Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): I rise this morning to share a few brief remarks with the House on Bill No. 15, The Cooperativ e Promotion Trust Act. As the Attorney-General (Mr. McCr ae) stated in his brief remarks on this Bill, its object is to replace The Wheat Board Money Trust Act with

an Act that is more int elligible and coherent. The original Act, dating back to the 1920s, governs the management of appro xima tely $300,000 held in trust, and the board dis perses about $30,000 a year in grants to help people set up coo peratives, to fina nce st udies of cooperatives and sim ilar work.

However, the language of the orig inal Act is archaic and convoluted, and the Official Opposition supports Bill No. 15, which is easier to read-Nn thing more, nothing less. * (1 140) This Bill is the ab solute m•mmum gestur e of encouragement to the cooperative movement and, quite frankly, I feel the movement deserves more than mini mal atte ntion. At this point, I feel obli ged to state that we feel our skepticism about the Go vernment's legisla tiv e intentions, as expressed in the Throne Sp eech, has been borne out.

The Go vernment promis ed bold initia tiv es in virtually every area of Go vernment respon sibilit y. Instead , we see on the Order Paper very little, other than re-enactments and redrafts of old stat utes and regulations. The Throne Sp eech would have been more accurate if it had said that this Government propos es a long period of ina ctivi ty. The Government is in the habit of sayi ng that it takes time to deal with the legacy of six-and-a-half years of mi smanagement by the previous Government.

If there had not been mismana gement in the past , I myself would not have sought elect ion to this House, but it asto unds me that this Government has so few proposals to put on the table after six-and-a-half years in Op posi tion . I am pleased to say that the cooper at ive movement serves our province wel l. The Province of Manitoba is the only province and the City of Winnip eg is the only major cit y with higher unemplo yment than a year ago in this countr y. I refer Honour able Mem bers to the province's most recent labour force report.

Manitoba needs to encou rage all forms of busi ness organ ization consis tent with our laws, and cooperative busi ness organ ization is such a form of busine ss organization. The three main forms of coop erative busin ess are producer coop eratives, consumer coope ratives and credit unions. The underlying principle of all three is that ind ividuals who feel they have ins ufficient clout in the marketpla ce organize themselv es to drive a better deal. For this reason, successful cooperatives earn what any busi ness would envy, the undying loyalty of a seg ment of the popula tion.

Even non-members receive spino ff benefits as the co-ops in tens ify healthy comp etition in communiti es throughout our province. One major Manitoba corpora tion, Un ited Grain Growers Ltd ., has its roots as a producer cooperative and contin ues to be a construc ti ve force in Mani toba's development. Unf ortuna tely, there is a less constructive force of which cooperativ es and the Government of Manitoba must be aware. In their anxie ty to provide max imum benefits to mem bers, coop erativ es sometimes have not retained sufficient earnings to fi nance optimum growth or to su rvive economic downturns.

The Ho nour able Mem ber for Burr ows (Mr. Chornopysk i), with wisdom bred of experience and with the utm ost devotion to the inter ests of the coope rative movement, has stated in this House that the movement must be nurtured in order to th rive. The Second Opposition Party, and I say this with some sadness, has been critic al of the Member's remarks. But the Li beral Party does not feel that a cheerleader wea ring rose-coloured glasses is really the best friend of the cooperativ e movement. I am conc erned th at sta tisti cal measu res of Manitoba's economic performance have turn ed down .

I hope all Members in this House will join me in urging the Government to assist cooperatives as appropria te in preserving their greatest asset, their fine reputation. I urge the Government to make a particular point of ins truc t ing regula tory authoriti es to exercise due dil igence in ensuring that credit uni ons and other provincial ly-regulated financial ins titutions maintain sufficient loan loss reserves to protect depositors' savings. We should nurture a higher level of confidence in our fin ancial in stitut ions in Manitoba than we see in Al berta or in the United States.

In the Un ited States, during the 1970s, an average of about 10 bank failures occurred per year. This numb er swel led to 184 in 1987 and currently the list of problem banks has grown to 1, 500. The savings and loan indus try in 1972 colle ctively had a net worth of $16 .7 billion in the Un ited States. By 1980, the net worth of the indus try had become a nega tiv e $17 .5 billion, and 387 of the remai ning 4,0 00 savings and loan assoc iations in the Un ited Sta tes were ins olvent at the end of 1987.

I now cite evidence of laxit y on the pa rt of banking regulators in Al berta and Ottawa in recent years when the Al berta economy was in clear decline following Brian Mulroney's precipitous cancellation of the National Energy Program. Several days ago- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! 1760

Friday, September 30, 1988 An Honourable Member: You got their att ention, Richard. Mr. Kozak: I am certai nly pleased, Mr. Sp eaker, to have the avid attention of Members op posite. Se veral days ago, the Mini ster of Finance (Mr. Manness) detailed some of the early history of the National Energy Program. I wou ld like to do him the courtesy of updating his remarks. The NEP offered Al berta freedom from the boom and-bust economy by provid ing for cei lings and floors on energy prices.

When the Prime Min ister left a gaping hole in the floor, bank and trust failures in the Province of Al berta became in evitable and should not have surprised regulators. The Li beral Party in Mani toba do es not want Manitobans' savings placed in jeopardy during any economic dow nturn. I empha size that the record of Manitoba's financial in stitutions justif ies a superior level of confidence. However, confidenc e is not to be equated with compla cency . I urge the Attorney -General (Mr. McCrae) to insis t that regulatory autho rities exercise due dil igence in protect ing Manitobans' savings. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. Mr. Jerry Slorie (Fiin flon ): I would like to take this opportunit y to also make some comments on Bill No. 15, The Cooperative Promotion Trust Act. I think some of the previous speakers have covered quite adequately the imp ortance of this legisla tion, the im portance that the Members on this side attach to it. This particular piece of legislation had been proposed by my colleague, the previous Minis ter responsible for Cooperative Development, some time ago.

In fact , I believe that if one were to review the piece of legislation that was being developed with the legislation that we have before us, you wou ld find that it is word-for-word, sentence-for-sentence identi cal to the one that my col leag ue, the Mem ber for Churchill (Mr. Cowan), intr oduced or was work ing on some months ago. Hon. Cha rlotte Oleson (Min ister of Commun ity Services): Some thing in terfered. * ( 11 50) Mr. Slorie: The Member for Gladstone (Mrs. Oleso

n) reminds me that some thing in terfered, and inde ed it did. Fortun ately, this is one of the pie ces of legislation which wou ld have been intr oduced-it was in fact introduced by the Government-which this Government has had the foresight to leave in place so that we can continue to work towards a better, stronger cooperative movement in the Province of Manitoba. I wou ld remind the Mem ber for Gladstone (Mrs.

Oleson) that, unfortun ately, many of the other inn ovative and progressive changes which were to be intr oduced have not been intr oduced and tha t the Government 's legisla tive agenda looks all too much like the agen da of a Government with no particular vision of what this province needs, what direct ion the province should take.

In fact, is a hodgepodge of adminis trative amendments to a numb er of Bills which perhaps are necessary but belie the fact that there is no particu lar agen da that the Government has in mind when it comes to the affairs of Manitoba. lt reminds me that the other pie ces of legislation that we have that are of signif icance, including changes to the small courts procedures, are also legislation that was propo sed by the previous Government. Mr. Sp eaker, this particular pi ece of legislation is designed to sup port the activities of our co-ops in the Province of Mani toba.

I think Mani tobans were saddened , dishearten ed-c ertain ly, those who have worked with the cooperative sector in the province were saddened by the elimi nation of the Department of Coo perative Development. I think that it belies the att itude of this Gov ernment when it come s to the im portance of the cooperative sector. I kn ow that my colleague from Churchill and other Members have reflected on the fact that the period in Manitoba's history from 1977 to 1981 was not a particul arly good period for Manitoba's cooperative movement.

The num ber of in corporations of co-ops in the pr ovince decli ned sign ificantly over that period to a point, in 1980-81, where there were virtually no new co-ops in corpor ated . Of cou rse, for the co-op movement, thankfully , in 1981, we saw the elect ion of a new Go vernment with a new at titude towards cooperativ e development and the ins tallation of a new Min ister of Coop erative Development into the portfolio who bel ieved funda mentally in the cooperativ e movement.

The results of that change in att itude, that change in Government, were reflected in the fact that the numb er of coope rative inc orporations incr eased dramatically in successive years to the 1987 year, when I believe there were some 60 co-ops inc orporated .

That is a tremendous achievement, and it also not only reflects the attitude of the Go vernment when it comes to cooperativ e development, the fact that we had an in dependent department with its own staff with a Min ister responsible who sup ported it, but it reflects the fact that given an opportunity Manitobans are more than willing to suppor t and to develop co-ops on their own to promote their own inter ests and their own regional local act ivities. The Member for Rupertsland (Mr.

Harper), I think spoke quite eloquently about the role that co-ops have played in his communit y-his communities, if I can expand tha t-o ver the last few years. Co-ops have worked to the advantage of fishermen and farmers, of trapp ers and now of com mun ities, and the Member for Ruperts land talke d about the im portance of the gas co-ops, the formation of co-ops to bring gasol ine at reasonable prices into their com mun ity. The fact is that northern Manitoba is perhaps the most extensive user of co-ops in the province.

That is because of the natur e of our com mun ities and also reflects the fact that in small com munit ies, in single-industry com mun ities, in isola ted rural com mun ities, the free market tends to be less com petitiv e and less consumer oriented . I think perhaps that is understat ing it. 1761 The formation of the gas co-op in Thompson some years ago, some six or seven years ago now, is perhaps

Friday, September 30, 1988 the best exam ple of a communi ty enterp rise which worked to affect the market prices of fuel in that co mmuni ty and has act ually gi ven the Thompson residents a multimillion dollar benefit. That benefit accrued not only to the mem bers of the co-op who had the vision to say there is some thing we can do about our own circumstanc es but it has been a benefit to many , many, in fact all of the mem bers of that co mmun ity , even those who were not

part icula rly suppor tiv e of the idea of a co-op, because what it has meant is the reduction in the pric e of gasoline from what it is perhaps in Sno w Lake, which is currently some 53 cents a litr e to 46, 47 cents a lit re. So mill ions and millions of dollars have been saved by virtue of the fact that a co-op was formed, that it introduc ed a new element of com petition in the fuel market in Thompson and has resulted in tremendous savings.

Of course, as people had beg un to un derstand the im pact that the co-op itself was having on pricing in Thomps on, new mem bers joi ned , busine sses joined, firms became mem bers so that their fleet vehicles could also be the recipients of not only low prices but the benefits of co-op membership which entitle d them to signi ficant rebates at year-end. So, Mr. Sp eaker, the co-op movement is not just a benefit to its mem bers, it has a sign ificant benefit to the commun ities that are lucky enough to have co-ops come and establish in their areas.

Thompson is a good example, but it is not the only one in Manitoba. For years, fishermen have relied on fishermen's co ops to suppor t their activities, to give some structure to the marketing of fish, the catching, transporta tion of catche s in our communi ties, in many , many commun ities. Those in stitut ions, those corporations have been supp orted not only by the local commun ity but agencies of Government. The Special ARD A Program, when it changed its polici es some years ago when it came to providing sup port to indi vidual fishermen and trappers, recogni zed that the co-op movement in that

part icular indus trial sector, in that particular economic sector was an im portant cog in the efficient production, delivery, marketing of fish products, in particula r, decided that it would change its pol icy in suppor t of co-ops. So now the polic y that Sp ecial ARDA uses-a nd this is a federal policy-is used to sup port ind ividual commun ity co ops, rather than indi vidual producers. The rationale, of course, came from the fact that the co-ops had been use ful.

They had been used very succ essfu lly to coordina te the act ivities of those indi viduals, whether they were on a trapl ine or ind ividual fishermen. So there is a broad recognition on the part of many different groups in Manitoba's socie ty that co-ops have been successful in not only monetary terms but in social terms as wel l. .. (12 00) Mr. Speaker, the Cooperative Promotion Trust Board, which has the authority to spend money as it sees fit for the promotion of co-ops, has done a good job.

Clearly, this Bill will define to a greater extent the role of the board, the role and manda te of its act ivities, and that will be useful for the future of co-ops as wel l. 1762 Mr. Speak er, I want to move back some way to the app arent contradiction th at exists between the in troduction of this Bill, which is designed to promote and sup port co-ops in this province, and the actions of the Go vernment in eliminating the Cooperative Development Department.

Despite the claim that is made by the Government that this rational ization , which they have called it, is money saving, I think that history will show- and I am not talking about history in the long term but history being in the next year or so that view was short-sighted.

The benefit that accrues to the province, ind ividuals looking for jobs, commun ities looking for support, communiti es looking to reduce the price of goods and services in their com muni ty, commun ities looking to intr oduce an element of comp etition into the market sys tem, will find that very quickly the in corporation of co-ops decreases as the focus of Government act ivity lessens in terms of its direct suppo rt, its abili ty to support people who come forwarding looking to develop co-ops. The formation of co-ops is not a simple ta sk.

I have been involved in developing co-ops, supporting co-op development. I know that it take s years of activity from the formation of an idea to the establis hment of a group of people in terested in supporting it, attem pting to define the level of support in the commun ity because co-ops, unlike some other kinds of operations, cannot survive without the indi vidual support of members. That is what binds those people and that enterprise together, and the formation of co-ops takes some time.

Certainly , people work ing to establish co-ops and, whether we are talking about housing co-ops or gas co-ops or commercial co-ops of one kind or another, it starts out with the will of several people who see a need, and there is a long process between the original idea, the in corporat ion of a co-op, the establishment of productiv e enterprise. Along the way there are many hurdles.

From experience, I know that many ti mes the people who con ceive of the idea or see the need for a co-op do not have the legal expertise that is required, are not familia r with the laws which govern co-ops, co op boards and the activities of co-ops. So they seek assistance; they seek direction. To the extent that there are fewer people rather than more who are involved in co-op development at the Government level, you have more or less problems in developing co-ops.

To the extent tha t you have people, a Min ister, a Government, who is sup portiv e of co-ops, who is prepar ed to desi gna te ad ministrative respo nsibili ties within a departmental conte xt for cooperativ e development, you have more co-ops being developed. You have a resurgence of coo perat ive development, which is what we saw from 1981 till 1987, a resurgence in the inte rests of co-ops. That happens because of the involvement of all sectors of our soci ety. lt certai nly requi res, in my opinion, the active in volvement and par tici pation of Go vern ment.

A departmental status for cooperative development gives it a profile, puts a signa ture on it which I think identifies clearly, in the minds of many , the level of suppor t that exists in the Government. Mr. Sp eaker, what we are concerned about is the signal that is being sent out by the dimini shing role of

Frid ay, September 30, 19 88 Coo perativ e Development within th e conte xt of Government departments. I kno w that the Min ister who is now nomina ll y responsible for Coo perativ e Develop ment (Mr. McCrae) would argue that the change is insign ificant, that the Minis ter is st ill concerned about the development of co-ops, but the signal itself I think tells a different sto ry. I believe that over a very short period of time you will see the numb er of in corpo rated co-ops decline and the end result will be fewer jobs, less compe tition and higher prices for many goods and services in our commun ities.

The Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan), I think identi fied in his speech the goals of the Co-op Promotion Board, and I believe the goals of that board certai nly were not suppor ted when the Government made its decision to elimina te the Depart ment of Co-op Development. I believe that the board itself should have been and needs to feel that it is bei ng suppor ted in a much more visible way by the Government. The in teres ting thing about co-ops, not only in Manitoba but around the worl d, has been the fact that co-ops, although they have experienced troubles lik e any other entity, have been survivors.

Other coun tries, particularly other European count ries, have used co ops successfully in a much broader array of enterpr ises than perhaps we have seen in Canada and in Manitoba. The scope for developing cooper atives really has only scratched the surface in Manitoba's terms. Many of the co-ops that we have seen estab lis hed, and we have seen a broader array in the last few years , have dealt with the traditional act ivities we assoc iate with co-ops, and that is the retai ling of goods in the cooperativ e mo vement, the handling of agr icultur al produc ts, whether it is fishing or trap ping.

The cooperat ive movement could be much more effectiv e in the indus trial sector . The coo perative movement could be much more effective in preventing plant closures, in preventing sign ificant disruption in different areas of our econo my. My and I guess the concern of many others is that while Bill 15 is being intr oduced, there is no real comm itment to broadening the involvement of the coope rative sect or in other sectors of the econo my. What we have seen here is a signal that the coop erative app roach that can be used to rejuvenate busi ness entit ies is bei ng ign ored.

Co-ops, of course, can be called by many names, but the idea of workers' co-ops, the idea that people involved in a failing, flagging indus try can take control of their own dest in y and form co-ops to rejuvenate an ind ust ry, a busi ness, cannot be ignor ed eith er. We have seen workers' co-ops formed in the Provi nce of Manitoba. They have been successful.

We should not lose sight of the fact that workers' co-ops tend to be very successful, and they are successful not only in fina ncial te rms-t hat is critically imp ortant, nonetheless -b ut they have also been successful in the way they have dealt with the involvement of workers. Research has shown, I think quite clearly, that workers' co-ops provide a level of job satisfact ion that is unheard of almost in the private sector, in the strict private sector.

The reason that is true is because the owners of a particular enterpris e in a co-op situation are the mem bers of the board, are the management, are the sen ior staff, are the workers on the floor. What you see, becaus e of the level of in volv ement, is a treme ndous sense of satisfact ion in the work that is bei ng done. * (12 10) (Mr. Deputy Speaker , Mark Minenko, in the Chair.) The satisfact ion goes beyo nd the simple wage, the wage level that is being received.

The satisfact ion goes to the more im portant level of personal reward and sati sfaction, and that is that they have some control over their own destiny in financial terms and in terms of their own securit y. They have some control in their work place, in the product, the quality of the produc t that they are produci ng, and the quality of the service they are delivering. Promotion of co-ops should no t be simply the advertisements one sees from time to time for the Dairy Produc ers' Co-op, or the Fishermen 's Co-ops, or ind ividual co-ops, colle ctives of one kind or anot her.

The job of the Coo perative Promotion Board is to expand the idea that indi viduals can gain some control over their own des tiny by col lectiv e ac tion, by cooperative action -words, which in some quarters and perhaps in the minds of Mem bers opposit e, should not be used in a society which stresses indi vidualism, which stresses free enterprise in the free market sys tem. His tory has shown that the princi ples of cooperative act ion work , and they work in many in stances to the advantage, to the major advantage, of the par ticipa nts in that particular activi ty.

That is true, whether you are tal king about the abil ity of co-ops to in troduce a new element of comp et ition in the market place, whether we are ta lking about the simple saving of dollars for consumers, or whether we are talking about the level of satisfact ion th at comes from knowi ng that you are wor king for yourself, tha t you are, like farmers, inde pendent in a sense, that you are relyi ng on your skills and the skills of your worker colle agues to make that particular enterprise a success.

The work of the Co-op Promotion Board needs to be expan ded, and its manda te to promote co-ops has to be broadened to include some more ima gi native, some more forward looking aspects of the potential for the co-op movement in Canada. We all kn ow that the co-op mo vement has an illus trious history in the province. We all kn ow that the development of co-ops, suppor t of co-ops is not confined to one region of the province. Farmers who consider thems elves in depen dent, who li ke/ne ed their in dependenc e, are supp orters of co-ops.

The esta blishment of grain coop eratives, the esta blishment of fina ncial cooper atives in rural Manitoba speaks volumes about the abil ity of ind ividuals in all areas of the province, all regions of the province, to understand the efficacy of cooperative act ion to deal with problems, and the formation of co-ops, fina ncial co-ops, is a good exam ple of a reaction to the world around them, the perceived unfairness, the perceived in sensitivity of major financial corporations in Canada to the plight of farmers in rural Manitoba. We saw the development of rural financial cooperativ es.

But again, the establ ishment of co-ops 1763

Friday , September 30, 1988 is not relegated , if you wi ll, to one region, one group in the province. The esta blishment of co-ops goes from Winnip eg and rural Manitoba to northern Manitoba. lt covers a wide range of ec onomic act ivities.

So what we need to see after the passage of this pie ce of legislation , after it had been to commit tee and been scrutin ized by the cooperative movement, ind ividuals in terested in legislation which affects co-ops, we need to see the kind of promotion of co-ops which is expans ive; that does not narrow it down to a passive role, which somehow expands the manda te of the board, which provides it with the wherewithal to really promote the use of co-ops in every sect or and every region.

The specifics of this Bill -1 know we are not supposed to talk at length about the specific clauses in the Bill because that will be saved for commit tee. At least , I cannot find any major issues with in the specific clauses. I think the Bill conforms to what the majority of Manitob ans who are familia r with co-ops would expect. I think it impr oved the manda te of the board. I think it clarifies some of their dut ies and responsibili ties, and I am sure that it will receive the suppor t of the majority of Members as it moves through the commit tee process.

What is not in the Bill-a nd I am assuming talking about what is not in the Bill is wi thin the rules, Mr. Deputy Speaker . I am sure you will correct me if I am in error in that. But what is not in the Bill I guess is equally im portant. I said in speak ing to other Bills that one of the things that we need to have as legisla tors is in forma tion about the process of impl emen ting legisla tion. We need to know what is going to happen after it receives our stam p of app roval, if you will. Is the Bill going to receive the unqualif ied end orsation of the Government?

Is the Government going to proclaim the legislation? Is the Government, after proclai ming the legisla tion, going to act in a way which is sup portiv e of the legisla tion? Is the Government going to pay lip service to the legislation or is it going to act in a way which is consis tent with the Bill? -(Int erject ion) -The Member for Arthur (Mr. Downey) says no, that they are certai nly serious, and that is gratifyi ng to hear.

I think we have all raised the issue that thei r actions on the one hand of elimi nating the department and int roducing the Bill do not speak to the kind of consis tency which most Manitobans would like to see, but we will have to wait. We will have to wait because clearly actions do speak louder than words. This Government will have an opportun ity to show that it is in fact serious about the in troduction, the promotion of coop erativ es in the province, and Manit obans will have a chance to judge. There are several ways you can judge whether a pi ece of legi slation is successful.

I woul d suggest, and perhaps the Min ister responsible for Cooper ativ e Devel opm ent (Mr. McCrae) in the province will stand in his place and tell us wha t goals he has for co-op development in the province. Is he going to achieve the kind of success we saw in 1987 with the develop ment of co-ops? Are we going to establish some 60 co-ops in 1988 and 1989? What are the goals of this Government? What we have seen so far from this Government is we are on all side s. We want everything for the province, we want everything for everybody.

They have not done any thing concrete when it comes to just about any thing. * (1 220) An Honour able Member: What about yesterday? Mr. Storie: What about yesterday? Very good question. The Member for Virden (Mr. Findla

y) talks about their great achievement yesterd ay. There is no doubt that the annou ncement made by the Min ister responsible for MTS was an achievement. Of course, there is a cost to it. Whether the burden is going to be fairly dist ributed is something that we will be discussi ng. The Min ister responsible talks about the quality of service. The Minis ter would like us to believe that somehow he has achieved this. The Minis ter knows that this had been in the pla nning, this had been on his desk, just as this particular Bill had been layi ng on the desk of the Min ister respon sible for Co-op (Mr. McCrae). Mr.

Deputy Speak er, let no one be under the illu sion that this Government has set the agenda for this legisla tiv e Session or for most of their actions. In fact, when they have had an op portun ity to act in a decisiv e way to protect Manitoba's in terests on any issue which was not on their desk, they have failed mi serably. That is why I raised the que st ion about the in tention of the Government because it is im portant. lt is not good enough just to in troduce- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please; order, ple ase. Mr.

Storie: I notic ed that we have struck a somewha t sensit ive chord in Members oppo site. I can appreciate that, because I would think it must be somewha t dep ressing, demoralizing, to sit day after day and know that what you are doing was plan ned by the previous Government and that you have no other agen da. The pie ces of legislation that we have got before us I think prove the point more vividly than any words than I could add to the debate about whether they have an agenda.

But it does raise the question of whether the Go vernment has any in tention to prom ote this legisla tion, to util ize it to its best advantage. We have seen time and time again that while they pay lip service to action to suppor t for the environment, to suppor t for regional development, when it comes time to act , we have nothing. My colleague, the Member for Concordia (Mr.

Doer), our Leader, indi cated toda y that the people of Flin Flon, the people of Sno w Lake, the people of Leaf Rapids are get ting conc erned because HB M&S has been wait ing for some indic at ion of fina ncial suppor t for its major modern ization plans. I know that the feasi bil ity studies, the techn ical st udies that were needed to prove the viabil ity of that plan, its appropria teness, its benefit to Manitoba have been done. That evidenc e has been before the federal Government, before the provincial Go vernment, for months. While the federal and provi ncial Go vernments di ther, th ere are seri ous 17 64

Friday, September 30, 1988 pollution problems, ground pollution prob lems in Flin Flon that are jeopardizing the health of workers in Flin Flon and families in Flin Flon . We get lip service about doing these wonderfu l things and we get no action. The environment, the Rafferty Alameda situation, the environmemtal situation when it comes to action in PCBs or anything else, all are indicative of the problem. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to get back to this Act. The quest ion I am asking and I have asked the Minister responsible for Co-op Development (Mr.

McCrae) is, is the Minister going to set some specific goals for his department? Is the Minister going to set some specific goals in terms of the incorporation of new cooperatives? Is the Minister going to set some targets for the incorporation of new fishing co-ops, new gas co-ops, new housing co-ops? Is the Minister going to say unequivocally that, yes, we are going to use cooperative developments to build more housing for seniors in the province? Are we flOing to use co-ops to build more housing for the disabled? Are we going to use co-ops to build more housing for families?

Are we going to use co-ops to make sure that the market prices for housing in this provincei remain stable and steady and that families can expect some lower cost over time for their shelter needs? Co-ops impact on a broad range of activities of Manitobans, and we need to know whether the Government has some serious objectives, because if all we are going to see is, "I am standing up and saying I am concerned about co-ops, yes , I am-oh sure , we dismantled the Department of Cooperative Development but we are very concerned, " it is not satisfactory.

It gives no one in the province any meat with which to hold this Government accountable . I believe that they have a responsibility. The Minister responsible for Cooperative Development has an obligation to stand and say, yes, the co-ops are important and these are our goals for the next year. The same is true for the Cooperat ive Promotion Trust Board .

We need to know how much money this board is going to spend on the promotion of co-ops, what particular co-op sectors are going to be the focus for promotion, how is the promotion board going to operate in terms of its mandate, some specifics about how this board is going to operate, how the Department of Cooperative Development is going to opera te is necessary for anyone to be able to quantify whether the Government is meeting its objectives.

The Minister is going to have a chance when he speaks to the Bill, the Minister is going to have an opportunity when the Bill goes to committee , the Minister is going to have an opportunity at third reading and, subsequently , to defend their retcord when it comes to co-op development and co-op promotion. I do not think it is going to make our job on this side any easier if all we have is rhetoric and no spec ific goals and objectives.

So I would call on the Minister responsible to prepare those in advance of our completion of this task, and that is reviewing The Cooperative Promotion Trust Act , to prepare in advance of the next Session of the Legislature not only a set of objec tives for co-op development and promotion, but a report on whether we are meeting, how far we have come in meeting those objectives . The Members opposite would like us to believe that they are good managers.

I think it is unfortunate that nothing we have seen this Session would lead us to that conclusion because, when it comes to management , one of the things that any first-year business administration student knows is that what you have to do to succeed in business is to set out clear objectives for yourself and say, are we meeting them . In many, many cases, this Government has not only failed to meet its objectives, it has failed to understand that the setting of objectives is the first step in an exercise to develop or promote anything.

We have not seen the Minister responsible for Co-op Development stand and give us any indication of where they are coming from. I do not want to have my comments degenerate into some of the other areas where this Government has failed to set objectives, has failed to set any clear , agenda for itself , but this Bill is important to the cooperative movement in Manitoba .

The cooperative sector is important to Manitoba and, although it is still small relative to the total economic pie, if you will, it is an important sector and if the Governm ent will undertake to tell Manitobans, tell this Legislature what they hope to achieve by this, what spec ific parts of the co-op sector they are going to promote , in what way and for what purpose and to what end, I think it would make our job a lot easier and perhaps their job a lot easier some six months or a year or two years down the road when we have an opportunity for one reason or another to debate co-op development amendments to The Co-op Promotion Trust Act or whatever.

They will be able to stand up and say, in 1988 we said we were going to do this for co-ops in the province . Today, I can announce that these and these objectives have been met or we have gone part way to meeting these obj ectives . If we leave it only on the level of rhetoric, no one will be at all clear whether anything is achieved. An Honourable Member:. Do you have the support of your caucus? Mr. Storie: Yes, I certainly do. What will be evident is that once again the Government's rhetoric has far outreached its ability , and that would be unfortu nate when it comes to the co-op movement.

The Member for Arthur (Mr. Downey) ackno wled ges that I am a great teacher, and that has been said before, and I cannot say that the Member for Arthur is a good student. I do not think he has learned anything in all his years in this House, but that is through no failin g of his own . Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourabl e Membe r' s t ime has expired . Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside): I just wan t t o serve notice so that when next I have the opportunity to speak on the Bill, it would be my intention to explain why it is 1765

Friday, September 30, 1988 that the New Democratic Party, its philosop hy, is so damag ing and has been so harmful to the cooperativ e mo vement il'l this provinc e and in the countr y general ly- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Is the Hono urable Member moving adjournment of debate? Mr. Enns: I am spea king to the Bill. lt is a fact of life and, despite that it is a Friday morning and it is a lovely Friday morning, I do not want to create any undue controv ersy. But one should not allow an otherwise gentle speech by the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) to leave a lot of basic untruths on the record.

The fact of the matter is that the coop erative movement has blossomed and flowered into its prominence long before there was an N.D. Party, long before there ever was a CCF Party elected to any province of this count ry. In fact , it is not more Government bureaucrats and bitter Government departments that encou raged the development of cooperatives. lt is exact ly the oppo site. He had one thing right when he said a cooperative is based on the indi vidual responsi bil ity , indi vidual members deciding to do something for themselves.

And that means not having Government or Government departments do it for them. • (1 230) I hope to have the oppor tun ity to exam ine the legacy of the NDP years in the cooperativ e movement, when they �id change Government agents through the length and breath of this province, created a lot of cooperatives that regrettably were not founded on that very sound principle of member involvement, but were put together through the Min ist er's office and through his agents. Su bsequent ly, the failure rate of the cooperative has been at an all-time high during those years of'81 -86. I realize my time is up, Mr.

Deputy Sp eaker, I will debate the next time . . . . 1766 Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The time being 12 :30 p.m., the Hono urable Member will have 38 min utes remaining when next we debate this Bill. Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): Could I ask the indulgence of Honourable Members not to see the clock for one minu te or so? Mr. Deputy Speaker: Does the Honourable Attorne y General have leave? (Ag reed) HOUSE BUSINES S Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr.

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-48
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Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 48.pdf
Language	en
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