VOL. I NO. 47 P P 1 IN J NARY UNRI)ITED TRAM Sc RI PT HOUSE OF ASSENI3LY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 1982

November 25, 1982 Tape 2694 PK - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. MR. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: IL is interesting to note, Mr. Speaker, that there is no he.t shield or shock absorber statements today by ministers to try to distract attention from the increase in taxes they brought in in the Ministerial Statement they made last Thursday. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to go back to a matter I raised a few days ago in connection with a $70.5 million write-off by the (overnment of Canada, $ 70.5 million that was forgiven by the Hovernment of Canada. A piece of information that was withheld From this House by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). Now that the Minister of Finance has had a few days - MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please The hon. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: It is not in order, Mr.

Speaker, when one is asking questions or in debate to place innuendos on the statements one is making. The hon. gentleman is making a definite innuendo - it rdqht be his impression, but his impression is very much in a minority in this Province when he insinuates that the Minister of Finance wa-; attempting to in effect deceive the people of the Province, giving an impression that was not a true impression. His words ae indicative of that and I think they should he withdrawn. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. IJODDER: That is not a point of order. 5651

November 25, 1982 Tape 2694 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please Again I must repeat,as I have done so often in the past number of days,that the Question Period is limited to thirty minutes. And I would ask the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) and the ministers to my left if they would keep their questions very precise and to the point and the answers should be the same. MR. NEARY: Now that the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) has had a few days to think about this matter and probably discuss it with his officials could the hon. gentleman now tell the House if indeed there was a $70.5 million write-off on established programme financing or on equalization payments to this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I think I first should refer to the economic statement,or one

section of it1 because the hon. Leader of the Opposition suggested that there was something left out of the statement. So with your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, I would like to read just one paragraph on page 2 of the statement. And it says, "It should be noted that the $19 million negative EPF variance relates to recovery by the federal government of a $25.4 million overpayment. This overpayment arose because EPF funds had been forwarded to Newfoundland from 1979 to 1981 on the bases of overstated population estimates.

The 1981 national census indicated that there was some 18,000 fewer Newfoundlanders than previously thought. Six other pIovines were similarly overpaid by the federal government. The Province had reason to expect that the federal government would agree to phase-in recovery of the overpayment over a number of years and accordingly budgeted $6 million of the amount for 1982-1983 at budget time. Last June, 5652

November 25, 1982 Tape 2695 NM - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: much to our chagrinthe Government of Canada informed us it would be recovering the full $25.4 million during this fiscal year. So I do not know what the hon. member says is left out. I have just stated in the statement exactly what happened in EPF,. That is what I set out to state and I did state it. It is correct. It is accurate. It is precise. So what is left out of it? I am referring to the overpayment in EPF. It is fully in there and that is the end oil it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : I wonder if the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) would just I.ermit me to welcome a couple of delegations to i.he galleries. MR. NEARY: Sue. MR. SPEAKER: I would like to welcome in the Speaker's Gallery from the Dunn Peninsula area a delegation led by Reverend Ross and Father Peddle, with Mayor House, Keith Osbourne, and Andy Moriarity. I welcome you people to the galleries today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hcar MR. SPEAXER: I would also like to welcome to the galleries from Baine HarbourMayor Harvey Reid, Fire Chief Robert Butler and past lire Chief harry Upshall. I welcome you people to the galleries today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, 1icar MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of th Opposition. * MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we will teal with the $25.4 million a little later but the point thal I am making is that the hon. gentleman did not (jive the House all the information in connection with over-payments to the Government of Canada1which makes it very difficult for us to assess whether or not the drastic action that the government took 5653

November 25, 1982 Tape 2695 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: in increasing taxes and so on is justified, and just precisely what the financial position of the Province is. And what I am asking the lion. gentleman is if there was indeed a write-off. Was there $70.5 million written off or forgiven by the Government of Canada, which was an overpayment either in the established programme fundinq or on equalization? That is the question I am asking the hon. gentleman. The hon. gentleman told us a few days ago he did not hear of that figure until I mentioned it in the house.

Now I am asking the hon. gentleman, now that he has had time to think about it, can he now confirm if indeed there was a $70.5 million write-off on equalization payments to this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, all I am saying is that we in our statement had to deal with our expenditures, and the revenues we have to deal with those expenditures. If there was a write-off by the federal governinentobviously it was not an expenditure accruing to us. You knowyou do not have an expenditure if a person writes off something.

The statement merely says that the federal government was asking us to make a payment to them and we had to have the money to make the payment. Now if they had said to us, "No, you do not have to make a payment to us," obviously we would not have to look for revenue to make the payment because we would not have to make the payment. So,I mean,whether there was a write- off on some other account is no concern of mine in the terms of this economic statement.

The statement I made to the house was that we had certain expenditures facing us, we had certain revenues that we could deal with those expenditures, there was a differ nce between the two and we had to find some ways of meeting the difference. 56514

November 25, 1982 Tape 2695 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman laid great emphasis, stressed this point to try to make Ottawa look like it was the bogey man in this particular thing. 5655

November 25,1982 MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: the hon. gent]eman - Tape No. 2696 ah-1 The reason I am raisinq it- That is not true. Yes, it is true.

I am asking SOME IION.MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR.SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please MR.NEARY: - if Ottawa had demanded payment of all the overpayments for 1979,1980 and 1981, if they had asked for repayment of all the overpayments,would there not have been another $70.5 million on equalization grants that we were overpaid that they forgave, and if they had demanded it it would have driven the Province probably into bankruptcy: Is that not a correct assumption for me to make? MR. DAWE: Thai, is not true. MR.NEARY: It is true. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to go back to the hon. Leader of the Opposition's (Mr.Neary) remark that I was making somebody out a bogey man. I was not making anyone out a bogey man. The individuals on social. assistance in this Province require payments from the federal. government,but the fact that we had to make the payments ,anl I i nd icat 0(1 and the (Jovernment indicates in its estimatesjs not saying that the social assistance recipients ,ire bogey men or the sick people in this Province demand payments from the provincial government.

And in indicating that we have to make these payments we are not making the sick people of this Province out to he bogey people. Similarly, because the federal government sends us a bill I am not making them out to be a bogey mane I am just saying that they sent us a bill and we had to have the money to pay it. That is all. S - -C JtJJ

November 25,1982 Tape No. 2696 ah-2 MR.SPEAI<ER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr Speaker, I am still not sure whether the hon. gentleman is admitting that there was a $70.5 million overpayment on equalization and if it has been forgiven. Would the hon. gentleman just answer, a simple yes or no answer, does he know if there was a $70.5 million overpayment on oqualization and if so is it forgiven? Is it written off? Yes or no. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.Speaker, I made some remarks in this regard before and pos.ibly the hon.

Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) forgot ibout them. We get projections from the federal government eery quarter,and they change. And those projections relate €ither to the current year or to previous years and sometimes they are up and sometimes they are down. In most instances,fortunitely,in the last number of years,they have been up.

So the federal government is making repeated adjustments to what is owed us and what is not owed us and I am absolutely certain, although I do not have the figures in front of me, I am absolutely certain that we got different projections in regard to equalization entitle menLs from the federal government at a particular time different from another time. I rnean,there are variations qoirig on all the time in these projections we get fioni the federal government. The point I am making though, J a 5657

November 25, 1982 rape 2697 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: that in terms of the EPF, the federal government came to us and said, 'You have qot money that we want you to pay back.' That was the particular difference in the whole arrangement under the Fiscal Arrangements Act we had with the federal government. They came to us in a specific instance and said, 'In this specific regard, you have $25 million that we want you to give back to us.' MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I still did not get my simple yes or no answer,so I presume I cannot ask the hon. gentleman again because I would be ruled out of order by the Chair and the (;overnment House Leader (Mr. Marshall) would leap to his feet and tell mc I did not know Lhe rules of the house. So I will just have to continue my research outside the House to find out if indeed there was a write-ofi of $70.5 million and under what heading it was written off. Now, the hon. gentleman keeps referring to $25.4 million.

Could the hon. gentleman tell the House how much of that $25.4 million is the result of a miscalculation in figures related to the established programmes funding, how much is related to miscalculations and how much is a direct result of the figures on the census being incorrect? There are two different figures, as I understand it. Can the hon. gentleman tell us how much can he associate with miscalculations and how much as a result of the change in the census figures? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. S 5 65 8

November 25, 1982 Tape 2697 EC - 2 S DR. COLLINS: At the present time I think I would not be misleading Lhe Douse in any way if I said that the bulk of that $25 million overpayment was related to the census chaniles.

Now, there may be a bit of an adjustment in it in terms of some other factor in regard to prior year ad ustments or whatever, but my understanding - and I will get some further infor- mation on this if it is avilable - my understanding is that the main problem causing that overpayment was that there was a census done in 1981 which showed a certain number of Newfoundlanders, and that number of Newfoundlanders was different tiorn the projected number of Nwfoundlanders for the years 1979, 1980, 1981, the projections havinq been based on the previous census which was in 1977. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) The hon. the Loader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I thought I understood the hon. gentleman correctly earlier, Mr. Speaker, when he said, and now he has confirmed, that the bulk of the overpayment resulted from payments that were made based on the population figures. Now, let me ask the hon. gentleman this - I do not WOOL to arque with him at this point in time, I merely want to bounce some fiqures off the hon. gentleman 5659

November 25, 1982 Ta)e No. 2698 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: because I am still researching this matter and the hon. gentleman promised the House that he was going to lay some documentation on the table of the House in connection with estimates that were made between the provincial government and Ottawa and the correspondence in connection with established programme funding and so on, equalization payments and so on.

Now,has the hon. gentlemen over heard this figure belore: $11.8 million,under the established programme funding payments, is what the overpayment actually was based on the popuiation figures,and $13.2 million is the money that the Province was overpaid as result of miscalculations that the Province received actually double payment and now they have to pay it back. Is $13.2 million the figure as a result of miscalculations and $11.8 million the result of the population figures not being accurate? Has the hon. gentleman heard these figures?

And if so,if he has heard themhow can he say that the bulk of the $25.4 million is a result of the census figures changing? DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (RusselJ): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, one correction before I get to the Loader of the Opposition's (Mr. S. Neary) main question there. He had indicated that I had promised to lay something on the table,which is quite incorrect. The hon. the Leader of the Oppmsition asked me if I would lay some things on the table.

I indicated to him I would look into the matter because there could be certain implications arising out of it. I made no promise at the time. He is looking for what wore intended to be if not confidential at least private communications between the federal government and the provincial government. He was 5660

November 25, 1982 Tape No. 2698 MJ - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: asking that these be laid on the table and,as I say,there might be implications to that both for the provincial and even for the federal government. So I made no such promise, I just said that I would look into the matter. Iii regard to the overpayments, what was the nature of the overpayments, As I have stated many times these calculations are made by the federal government. We do not have any

part in making the calculations. We do have a

part in advising on the formula on which the calculations are made. The formula is revised ever five years and once that formula is put in place it is in the federal government's hands then to put that formula into actual operation. 5661

November 25, 1982, Tape 2699, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS: All I can say is that my firm understanding is that the vast bulk of that $25.4 million arose out of a miscalculation based on the population figures. If the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has had some information from the federal government to the contrary,I think he should spell it out quite clearly, if he is at liberty to do that. We just have the figures relayed to us on the basis of the federal government calculations, and it was indicated to is that the large bulk of that miscalculation was on the basis of population differences.

MR._SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I will spell it out for the hon. gentleman. My understanding is as firm as the hon. gentleman's that only $11.8 million was the result of changes in population figures; the $13.2 million, which the hon. gentleman's officials knew about, by the way, was the result of miscalculations, two separate headings altogether. DR. COLLINS: Is that some official document or something? MR.

NEARY: Well, I am still researching it, but I wanted to get the hon. gentleman to answer some questions for me so I can get it on the record, so I can do a little more research on this matter. But my understanding is just as firm as the hon. gentleman's right now. But, anyway, we will deal with this matter - MR. STAGO: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it only goes to show how out of date the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is. Anyway, I will deal with it later. 4 5662

November 25, 1982, Tape 2699, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Now I want to come to the current situation, and I want to ask the hon. gentleman in view of the fact now that the feeling throughout the Province is unanimous that a Tory government is no good, that the Tories have to go - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. TOBIN: April 6. MR. NEARY: - that is the feeling throughout the Province. Mr. Speaker, the Tory times are hard times and a Tory government is no good.

Now, in view of the fact that that is unanimous, unanimous throughout Newfoundland and Labrador, and that the lion. gentleiians policies announced last Thursday are negative and will backfire, will the hon. gentleman tell the House - MR. TOBIN: How many votes did you win by? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Flear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, because - MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: - becausv those taxes are going to backfire and have a negative effect, what will happen?

Can the hon. gentl€man tell the House what will happen if the government do€s not get the revenue that they are hoping to get from the hot dog tax, from the clothing 5663

November 25, 1982 Tape 2700 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: tax, from the one per cent increase in the sales tax , from the increase in the insurance tax, and so on? If the government does not get the revenue that it expects to get by taxing Christmas shopping what will be the situation as far as the financial picture of this Province is concerned? What will be the consequences if it backfires? If the hon. gentlemans policy and the adrninistrations policy backfires, what will happen? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member has got some figures over there, I do not know where he got them. He has come in with these figures and he says that accordingly the Department of Finance is totally out of date. You know, what are the figures? I think the hon. member should put them on the table so we can see if they are some figures that he wrote on the back of an envelope? Are they some figures that he has officially from the federal government? Are they some figures that he has dreamed up in one of the back offices there? What are these figures?

As far as I can see the paper looks as though it was torn our of a scribbler book. MR. NEARY: My notes are clear and legible. DR. COLLINS: Oli,I see. But where did they come from? What are those figures? I mean, are they conjectures? What are they? MR. TOBIN: Where did you get them from? DR. COLLINS: Wefl11 mean until the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) says he has some figures that one can put some credibility in, I think we will ignore the figures that he is giving this House. I mean these figures are totally to be ignored because as far as one can see they have a S 5664

November 25, 1982 Tape 2700 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: no basis in fact, credulity or anything else. Now in regard to the rest of the hon. Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Neary) question; My understanding is he says that if the Province does not get the revenues it expects,what is it going to do about it? Well,what is new in that situation I mean that has pertained from year one. If governments do not get the revenues they expect,what do they do about it? They take action such as we took the other day. They adjust their expenditure programme.

They look to see where they can get revenues to take care of their expenditures and so on. I mcan.that is not a new situation I mean that is what the Departments of Finance and budgeting hasbeen about ever since,I suppose, human being decided to have a government. MR. SPEAKER (Rusel1): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker we saw the hon. gentleman retreat 5565

November 25, 1982 Tape 2701 EC 1 MR. NEARY: yesterday from one of his announcements that he made in his Ministerial Statement last week. Now, I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if he intends to retreat on the commercial heating fuel tax? That tax is likely to have a negative effect and cause small business to go bankrupt. It will have an effect on whether or not a lot of the fish plants survive in this Province. We hear about the one down in Burin now closing down and the government does not seem to be doing anythino about that. MR. TOBIN: It is you crowd that said let them go hoire. Bar thorn up.

Close them out. Let them go. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the ignoramus from Burin is at it again! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman should learn the rules of the House and he must understand that he is not downtown in a bar-room, he is in the people's House, in the House of Assembly,whero - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: -he has to abide by the rules of this House, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member must remember that. NB. TOBIN: You advocated closinq up the fish plants in this Province. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Lie is not down in the Belmont Tavern somewhere. This is the people's House. Mr. Speaker, what I am asking the hon. gentleman to tall me is if it can be shown - and indeed it is because this also is unanimous - that 5666

November 25, 1982 Tape 2701 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: the heating fuel tax is going to have a devastating effect on small business in this Province and likely to close down a lot of businesses and have a lot of people thrown out of work, become unemployed, will the hon. gentleman retreat from that tax that he announced in the Ministerial Statement last Thursday? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I do not suppose one will ever change the

interpretation the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) puts on things. He talked about a retceat in regard to the tax on adult clothing with the retention of the exemption for children's clothing from retail sales tax.

I think in one ol the first questions in this hon. house in regard to that, I indicated that we were aware of a number of mechanisms whereby these two things could he differentiated and I indicated that we were using the traditional one, the one that has been used in this Province in the past, but that we were aware of other ones, that we were looking at it, and as soon as we had the full information on it we would come forward with the other one if it was desirable to do so.

So that was not a retreat in any way, that was an add on, and I told this hon. house that we were in the process of looking at it and we iiiiqht come in with an add on. Now, with regard to the other tax, the tax on heating fuels, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition again says that this will affect fish plants. It will not affect fish plants. Fish plants are not affected by this change in tax. So, you know, he is 55 67

November 25, 1982 Tape 2701 EC - 3 DR. COLLINS: inaccurate in that. Fish plants are not classified as commercial ventures, they are classified as manufacturing enterprises and they do not have anything whatever to do with this tax change. I also indicated that the nature of this tax change was such that it overcame an anomaly that some S 1. "U"]

November 25, 1982 Tape 2702 NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: businesses now were having to pay tax on the way they heat their premises, and the way they use fuel for cooking and so on and so forth, because they did it throuqh electricity, and there is retail sales tax attached t electricity. Other businesses 'ere getting away with something, shall we say, or at least they were not subject to the tax that their brother businesses were subject to, and this was the nature of getting rid of that anomaly.

I doubt very, very much, and I am not going to categorically say it will not because who can see into the future, but I doubt very, very, very much whether this tax will have any impact whatever in cauning a single company to become bankrupt. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Before I recognize the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. }lodder),I would just like to welcome to the galleries,from the Town of Greenspond, Mayor Robert Granter and Deputy Mayor Frazor Harding. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) regarding the government aircraft, sometimes known as Air Force One, I was just wonderinq if the - MR. YOUNG: You were happ' enough to ride on her. MR. NODDER: Yes. MR. STAGG: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HODDER: 0 had been sold. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: How many Limes? Oh, oh - I was just wondering if the plane Oh, oh Order, please 5669

November 25, 1982 Tape 2702 NM 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DANE: Mr. Speaker, the King Air ormediVac unit that we have been using for the past number of years is being placed at a broker, if it has not already been done today it will be done either tomorrow or early next week, for possible sale. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister if the plane will be sold by public tender? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DANE: Mr. Speaker, it will not be a tender as such.

It will be given to an agency which is in the business of selling aircraft and will be advertised by them and sold by them for government. MR. IIODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SP1AKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Could the minister name the agency with which it will be placed? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: The reason I am not sure whether it has ben issued or not, there are a number of such agencies that could be used and until a final decision is made as to who that agency will be then I am not at liberty to inform the House at this time. MR.

SPI':AKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Could the minister tell me what advantage it is to place the plane with an agency rather than to sell it by publi: tender, or through newspapers throughout the country? MR. NEI\RY: Why pay a middle man? 5670

November 25, 1982 Tape 2702 NM - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I suppose the same question cou].d be asked of someone who is selling a house, p why they do not sell it themselves or go through a real estate agency. With an aircraft,the possiblities of selling the aircraft locally may in fact be limited. People in the sviation p 5671

November 25,1982 Tape No. 2703 ah-1 MR. DAWE: business are familiar with where the markets may be and are in a much bettor position to locate possible clients to purchase that aircraft not only in this Province or in the country but also in North America. MR.NEARY: Mr.Speaker, a supplementary. MR.SPEAKER (Russell) : A supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, even though the hon. gentleman is saying that they are going to farm this out to an agency could the government not make it one of the conditions of allowing this agency, whichever one it is, to soil the government aircraft, that it be advertised in the magazines and in the newspapers, that it be sold only after a publLc advertisment appears in the newspapers and in the majazines? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR.DAWE: Mi:. Speaker, I would be very reluctant to recommend any aency that did not follow those procedures.

It would be very difficult to identify all the available clients if you did not advertise it properly. MR.YOIJNG: John C. Doyle might need her. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR.LUSH: Mi:. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Municipal. Affairs (Mrs Newhook) with respect to the reduction in the level of tax incentive 4 grants to municipalities which was going to save the government $720,000. Today we hear that the City Council. here in St.

Johns,who relucLantly accepted their responsibility in this respect first when the announcement was made assuming that they would lose $250,000, now are indicating that they are going to lose $1 million. 5672

November 25,1982 Tape No. 2703 ah-2 MR.LUS}I: Could the minister comment on that? Is this the right figure ,that

whereas previously they thought from the formula announced by the government they were going to lose $250,000 now they say they are going to lose $1 million? MR.SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to say exactly how much it will lose because it depends clearly on the amount of their collections. But they will lose five cents on every dollar that is eligible for that fifty cent and twenty-five cent grant. The city did get fifty cents up to $2 million collected in property tax, and then they got twenty--five cents on everything over $2 million.

So that has been reduced by five cents on the dollar now so it could be $1 million . I would estimate it to be within that vicinity. MR.LtJSH: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR.LTJSH: having established then that the St. Johns City Council is accurate with respect to that amount, when on first hearing they thought that they would be only losing $250,000 but because the collections are done quarterly naturally in A year they are going to lose $1 million, is this 5673

November 25, 1982 Tape No. 2704 MJ - 1 MR.T. LUSH: going to have the same repercussions with other councils throughout the Province? MRS. it. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. a MRS. NEWI.100K: Yes, Mr. Speaker, they will lose five cents on every dollar that is now eligible for the Property Tax Incentive Grant ,but of course they will not lose as much as the city because their revenues are very small, compared to the city's revenues. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I think there are approximately 310 municipalities in Newfoundland so the minister has indicated that the St. John's City Council is right in their determination - or pretty accurate - that they will lose $1 million. Can the minister put an average figure on what other municipalities may lose? I realize that it is difficul.t in that we have got some large councils but excluding,for examplc,thc urban areas like Corner Brook, Grand Falls and Gander, is the minister able to put an average figure on what other councils may lose? MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS._NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, first I would like to correct the hon. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. T. Lush) The Propery Tax Incentive Grant applies in 1983 to probably a little over ninety municipalities. That is the number of municipalities we have with property tax in place. It does not apply to the general assistance 3rants whatsoever. So they would lose in the same proportion to their revenues. 5674

November 25, 1982 Tape No. 2704 MJ - 2 MRS. H. NEWHOOK: I cannot give you an average figure really, , but five cents on one dollar of property tax collected. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The time for the Question Period has expired. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! NOTICES OF MOTION DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Thr hon. the Minister of Finance. DR._COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled: "An Act To Amend The Insurance Companies Tax Act." MR. H. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled: "An Act To Amend The Department Of Public Works And Services Act, 1973." MR. SPEAKER: Are there any ether Notices of Motion. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. WM. MARSHALL: Order 49, Bill NC). 66, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order 49, Hill No. 66. 4 5675

November 25, 1982, Tape 2705, Page 1 -- apb Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting Pensions For The Members Of The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary And The St. John's Fire Department And The Staff Of Her Majesty's Penitentiary". (Bill No. 66) MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Minister of Finance. Dr. Collins: Mr. Speaker, this act, bill 66, is a new act, it is a replacement for the Constabulary Pensions Act. The Constabulary Pensions Act,which although is was named that really applied to all the uniformed services in government employment, was somewhat out of date in many parts.

Initially it was thought that the original act could be amended, but when it was gone into it was clear that it was best to rewrite the act and this is what this bill is now doing. Mr. Speaker, many parts of this new act are very similar to the previous act, but there have been significant changes and I might just run down through some of them. The first section, of course, does change the name.

There is nothing very revolutionary about that, but it does change the name, and this new act now, rather than being referred to as the Constabulary Pensions Act is to be referred to as the Uniformed Services Pensions Act.

Section 4 of this new act changes the vesting period, t at is the length of time an employee is in government auploynient after which he does become pensionable. Under th old act the employee had to serve fifteen years. Under this new act, he will now have to serve ten years. Sections 7 and 8 of the new act ensures that all employees in government service who 1• 5676

November 25, 1982, Tape 2705, Page 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS: actually enter the uniformed services, do have their previous employment counted for pensions.

Section Ii of the new act not only integrates the contributions to be made under the act with the Canada Pension Plait so that for any part of salary only 6 per cent is the contjibuted amount so that there is not an add-on for part of the salary, an add-on to contributions of this pension plan with an add-on from the Canada Pension Plan. They are integrated so that for any part of salary the maximuni is a 6 per cent contribution. Also, it provides that after thirty years service no longer are contributions necessary.

Section 15 of the new act brings in new normal retirement ages. For all commissioned officers coming into the forces from now on, retirement age will not be sixty-five, but will be sixty years. p 4 5677

November 25, 1982 Tape 2706 PK - 1 DR. COLLINS: And for all other ranks, that is those ranks below commissioned officers, they may now retire at age 55 or after twenty-five years service,whicheyer is earlier. MR. NEARY: With full pension,is it7 DR. COLLINS: Yes, full pension.

Section 17 of the new Act brings in new optional retirement ages. These new ages for senior commissioned officers ,they may retire at 55 or after thirty years service , and for those below those senior commissioned posts , officers below those posts may retire after twenty-five years service no matter what their age is, They have optional retirement after twenty-five years service irrespective of age and of course receive full pension at that stage.

Section 21 of the new Act refers to deferred pensions. Deferred pensions may be put in place after ten years service. What a deferred pension means is that if someone leaves one of the uniformed services after having been in for ten years , if he has not arhieved pensionable age by that time he may leave his contributions in and when he comes to pensionable age he then would be eligible for a pension. In the intervening years, the same

section provides that in the intervening years any pension increases which would accrue to a person who is actually on pension would also accrue to his deferred pension. So that when he finally gets his deferred pension he would have a pension that is increased by the amounts that the actual pensioners have received. And the final comment I might make at this stage, Mr. Speaker, is

Section 25 increases survivor benefits from E0 per cent of the pensioner's entitlement 5678

November 25, 1982 Tape 2706 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: up to 55 per cent of the pensioners entitlement. So, Mr.

Speaker, I think this new act altogether provides a more up-to-date handling of pensions within the uniformed services f government employees0 It updates the acts, and it doesI think,give due benefits to those individuals in the polce force and in the fire department and Ln the penitenti ry service who provide of course good services to the people of this Province and indeed without whom we would have great difficulty in discharging our responsibilities as a government Hc>n. members of this House know that these individuals are considered , at least the police and the firemen anyway, so essential that they are provided with binding arbitration in the sett]enient of wage disputes and employee management difficulties.

So with those few words, Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of Bill No. 66. 5679

November 25, 1982 Tape 2707 EC 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that looks like a piece of scribbler paper the hon. gentleman had in his hand, the same as he accused me of having during the Oral Question period today. I am not going to ask the hon. gentleman to table it because I understand it is his own notes, the same as the piece of paper I had in front of me were my notes, but I do not mind tabling them, the writing is clear and the points are there and I have no h'dtation if I - MR. SIMMS: You are not required to table them. MR.

NEARY: That is right. Mr. Speaker, we are going to support this bill. At the end there, the hon. gentleman heaped a bit of praise on the uniformed men - forgot to mention the women - in the service of this Province in the Fire Department and in the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. I can echo his sentiments, Mr. Speaker, but I am sure that the uniformed policemen and the firemen in this Province would have much more preferred for the hon. gentleman to tell them that their pension plan was going to be funded rather than heap faint praise on these men and women. My understanding, Mr.

Speaker, is that the money collected, the pension contributions made by the men and women of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary and the Fire Department will go into consolidated revenue. Am [ correct? This pension plan Ir a

November 25, 1982 Tape 2707 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: is not funded, the money goes into consolidated revenue? DR. COLLINS: I am going to refer to that. MR. NEARY: Well, the hon. gentleman is going to refer to it. Well, I have the act in front of me so I will have to refer to it myself. It says: Employers contribution - The Government of the province shall pay out of the Consolidated Revenue Pund and pay into the fund

a) an amount equal to the employee contributions." Former contributions credited, 'moneys deducted from the salary of an employee or paid by him under The Pensions (Premiums)Act shall be retained in the Consolidated Revenue Fund. 5681

November 25, 1982 Tape 2708 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: I im assuming, Mr. Speaker, that this is not a funded pensioi plan. And I am sure that with the shaky financial positioii of this Province that has been revealed in the last several weeks, that unless a pension plan is funded I would say Lho members of that pension plan would be very nervous, Mr. Speaker.

They would be very nervous indeed in case the provincial government goes into receivership or into bankruptcy, and the government did not have any money to pay their employees pay cheques or issue cheques to pensionirs in the event that the government did not have the money to cover these cheques, the retired members of the Newfoundland Constabulary and the fire department would not be able to cash their cheques, because it is not a funded pension plan. I hope that such drastic incidents never occur in this Province, Mr. Speaker, but they could.

Now steps were taken in the last session of the house of Assembly to fund the public service employees pension plans, and I would say that is costing the provincial government at the moment an arm and a leg to make the contributions into that pension fund. I would like to ask the minister why this plin is not funded, why this is not funded the same as the public service employees pension plan?

And I would also like to ask the hon. gentleman when he is on his feet to tell us if there is now any member of the Newfoundland Constabulary, tartinq at the Chief and working right down to an ordinary cnstable, if there is anybody receiving full saJary waitiiq for his pension, waiting for his retirement, waitinq for his time to come when he can 5682

November 25, 1982 Tape 2708 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: qualify for a full pension? Is there anybody relieved of his duties, of his responsibilities, receiving full salary waiting for a pensionsiarting from any former chiefs right on down to the constable in the street? If so,could the hon. gentleman give us the number of former members of the Newfoundland Constabulary who are retired on full salary while they are waiting for their pension to come through? I would be interested in hearing the hon. gentlemans answer on that. Now, Mr. Speaker, as for as the plan itself is concerned, I think it is time that we brought

an act in covering pensions for members of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary and the St. Johns Fire Department, and the wardens and the staff aL Her Majestys Penitentiary. Becauseas hon. members know, it is quite likely in the 5683

November 25,1982 Tape No. 2709 ah-1 MR. NEARY: foreseeable future that the Newfoundland Constabulary will be expanding throughout Newfoundland and Labrador. The Newfoundland Constabulary before the cutbacks were announced and before the taxes were increased,we were told that the Newfoundland Constabulary was on the hitch, on the verge of moving into Labrador. MR.STAGG: You are against that, I suppose. MR.NEARY: No, I am all for it.

As a matter of fact,I would like to see the patch on the Newfoundland Constabulary down near the border in Labrador, down in Wabush and Labrador City, patrolling the border down there, the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, the Royal Newfoundland and Labrador Constabulary, Mr. Speaker. I would like to see that. But in these times of restraint I do not know if the government is going to go ahead with their plans to expand into Labrador this year. But immateria] of whether it is this year or next year - MR.OTTENIIEIMER: In 1985. MR.NEARY: In 1985 the Minister of Justice (Mr.Ottenheimer) says.

MR.OTTENFIEIMER: In 1984. MR.NEARY: In 1984. The fact of the matter is the point I am making is that the Royal Newfoundland and Labrador Constabulary is expanding and so it is high time that they grew up and they had their own pension plan so T am glad to see it because it is conceivable in the not WO distant future that now that the Roya] Newfoundland Constabulary are patrolling Mount Pearl and will move into Labrador in 1984 that there may be other areas of the Province that may be covered in the future by the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. If the Minister 5b6L

November 25,1982 Tape No. 2709 ah-2 MR.NEARY: of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) I am sure if he determines that it would cost the taxpayers less to have the Newfoundland constabulary , the Royal Newfoundland and Labrador constabulary police Newfoundland, it would cost less than having the RCMP do it, that the hon. gentleman would not hesitatJe to give jurisdiction outside of St. John's and Mount Pearl and Labrador, to the whole of Newfoundland to the Royal Newfoundland and Labrador constabulary. So if that happened, Mr.Speaker, they would certainly need their own pension plan so we welcome this.

I am concerned about the fact that it is not a funded plan. I would like to hear the hon. gentleman tell me if indeed there are - the Minister of Justice was not in his seat when I asked the question_ if there are any members, former members, former chiefs of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary who are retired on full salary - in other words who are receiving salary while they are waiting for their pension_ ranging from former chiefs right on down to constables? I would Like for the hon. gentleman to give the House that information, if he has it. So, Mr. Speaker, we are going to support this piece of legislation.

We think there is all kinds of room for improvement in it. 5685

November 25, 1982 Tape No. 2710 MJ - 1 MR. SPEAKER_(A1ward). The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENIjEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I will speak briefly on this. I could add that this particular legislation, which cleats with the pensions of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, the St. John's Fire Department and the Newfoundland and Labrador Correction Service -- these are the three agencies that are dealt with by this -that this legislation is brought in with the knowledge, and indeed agreement, of the forces, not only their managment but their unions as well.

It has been brought in with their knowledge after a large amount of consultation aad discussion with what is now called the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary Association - they are not railed the Brotherh'od anymore because, obviously,there are women in it, it is now called the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary Associ ition - brought in after consultation with them, consulta'ion with the Firefighters Union and consultation with the FiAPE local of which the warders in the various correction center - the correction officers - are members. So it is done with their knowledge and indeed, concurrence and they welcome it.

Ther are certainly no former chiefs of police drawing salary now, only pensionand no former members drawing salary. There may be one or two people on sick loavo,but obviously that is a different matter; they are still members or the force. Occasionally there are people on sick Leave but thar would ho the only situation where people would be drawing so ary an'i - well I cannot say not bc members of the force because they would he members of the force, but they are on sick leave. That would be the only instance where anybody would be drawing a salary and not doing their assigned won-.

But certainly there are no former members of the force drawing salary. The only thing they could be drawing would be any pension the" would he entitled to. 5666

November 25, 1982 Tape Ne. 2710 MJ - 2 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I think this legislation actually has been, I tlink, a couple of years in the making because pension legislation,l understand is quite complex and I know that it will be welcomed by the men and women whom it will affe2t. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): If the hon. minister now speaks he will close the debate. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER. The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Spa ker, I thank the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (r. S. Neary) for his support for this bill.

I think it is a welcome event in this House to have this bill broight in. I think it was a needed updating of the act that aplied to the three divisions that the hon. the Ministe of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer) referred to. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition did raise a few question about funding. Just a little clarification on that, because I think there may be a certain amount of confusion. I think it was in 1980 we brought in a p 5687

November 25, 1982, Tape 2711, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS: Pensions Funding Act, and that set up a fund, a pooled fund, and it is out of that pooled fund that all pensions for which government is directly responsible, it is out of that pooled fund that q the pensioners get their pensions. MR._NEARY: But that is not what this act says. DR, COLLINS: That includes this, yes. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary) referred to

section 12, I believe.

Section 12 states: 'The Government of the Province shall pay out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund and pay into the fund'. Now, that second fund there refers to the Newfoundland pooled pension fund. So the mechanism is that when an employee makes a contribution out of his salary towards his pension, his contribution goes into that pooled fund. MR. NEARY: But it is called here Consolidated Revenue Fund. DR. COLLINS: What that refers to there is that we then match it and we pay out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund into the pooled fund to - MR.

NEARY: The only fund which has been referred to here is the Consolidated Revenue Fund. DR._COLLINS: No. No. That is named. The Consolidated Revenue Fund - MR._OTTENIIEIMER: It is defined in 2(

e) DR. COLLINS: Yes. ''Fund' means Province of Newfoundland Pooled Ponsicm Fund.' That is not the Consolidated Revenue Fund. There is a pooled pension fund set up and the contribution from the employee goes into that fund and the matching payments by the government, which come out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund, they also go into that pooled pension fund. And out of that pooled pension 5686

November 25, 1982, Tape 2711, Page 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS: fund the pensions are paid to the general employees if government. MR. NEARY: That is not what the act says. MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. NEARY: MR. OTTENHEIMER: DR. COLLINS: defines what 'fund' means.

Section E, Page 4. Page 4?

Section E. Yes, under

definitions. It So out of that pooled fund the general employees of government, the teachers, these particular individuals, the uniformed services people, MHA5, all these pensions do come out of that fund and we match, we match the annuaL contributions to that fund. And for any group of emp] yees, if their partLcular fund, or their particular part •f the fund, I should say, is in deficit, government makes up that deficit. MR. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman allow me? MR. SPEAKER (ward): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition with a questioe. MR.

NEARY: This fund, this Newfoundland pooled pension fund the han. gentleman is referring to, is that building up all the Lime? And can the government use that money for current account? Can they borrow from it? Can they use it at all oj is it building up? It is there p to take care of pensions only, is that the idea? MP SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Yos, it is building up at the present time. MR. NEARY: 110w much is in there? DR. COLLINS: Just let me explain a little bit further on that. You can have a pension fund which

November 25, 1982 Tape 2712 NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: is totally unfunded, you can have a pension fund which is fully funded, or you can have it partially funded. Now ours is partially funded. IF MR. NEAR'!: So you can use the money? DR. COLLINS: No. No. Partially funded in this context means that at some point in time unless you change your policy in terms of contributions or whatever, your fund will actually run out of funds. In other words, it is not fully funded so that forever it will take care of your pension payments, unless you do something. MR.

NEAR'!: And then you have to make transfers from Consolidated Revenue. DR. COLLINS: And then you have to make transfers. So if we want at some later stage make sure that this - MR. NEAR'!: So I was right then If the government goes broke there will be no pensions. DR. COLLINS: Well, you know, I think that is a very unlikely possibility. I do not think any provincial government is likely to go broke, or any government in Canada for that matter. I do not think any municipality - MR. NEAR'!: But if the pension plan was funded, then it would not make any difference if the government went broke or not. MR.

OTTENIIEIMER: Well, the people who funded it could go broke. That is true. MR. NEARY: The taxpayers vould still get their pensions. That is true. MR. NEAR'!: But under the present arrangement if there is any difficulty with the finances of the Province - 5690

November 25, 1982 Tape 2712 NM - 2 DR. COLLINS: But I might say that there are certain provinces in this country which have made the decision they will not fund their pension plan, even partially, and one of them is Ontario. They feel that this is not the way to go. Now other jurisdictions say, "Yes, this is the way to go.' And we have taken the first step, and it was only in 1980, iS I have to remind the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) and members opposite that there have been pensiens For employees of government for many, many years, but i t was only when the Peck lord Government came in that we started bejinninc; to fund the pension plan and we have not gone the full way but at least we have gone part of the way and as years go on possibly that will be improved upon. MR. NEARY: Excuse me? Is the pension plan paying its way now or are we transferring funds from Consolidated Revenue? DR._COLLINS: Overall the pension pool fund is paying its way. In other words,it is building up overall.

But there are certain groups within government, for instance, I might indicate that the MBA part of it is not paying its way. In other words,thc contributions from the M}iAs and the matching contributions by government is not sufficient for that part of the fund to pay its own way1 SO government has to make up the deficiency. In other words,contributions from other employees are not helping to fund NIJA5, the jovernment itself is actually putting contributions in 1.here. MR. NEARY: I should have left him alone. 5691

November 25, 1982 Tape 2712 NM 3 DR. COLLINS: has been stated before we need to hold back o known to all people in MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: This is common knowledge. This in this House,so it is nothing that anything like that. This is well this Province. Jack up the contributions. As time goes on, 5692

November 25, 1982 Tape 2713 PK - 1 DR. COLLINS: this funding will be kept under review. We do have an advisory committee that helps us to keep track of what is happening to our pension fund. The hen. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) also asked whether we actually borrow,as a Province, whether we borrow out of the Lund? We do not. There are certain rules and regulations - MR. NEAR?: That is a good thing. DR.

COLLINS: - for all registered pension funds that have to be followed, and these are federal regulations and we follow those regu]ations, there are certain investments that may be made and so on, and we follow those very precisely. So I think those are most of the questions that have been raised and with those remarks I move the adoption of the bill. On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting Pensions For The Members Of The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary And The St.

John's lire Department And The Staff Of Her Majesty's Penitentiary, read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 66) MR. OTTENHEIMER: Order 26, Bill 33. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Deferred Pensions Act', (Bill No. 33). MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. Minister of Finance. 1. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, this is an amendment, it is just a very brief amendment. The Deferred T'ension5 Act is

an act which was brought in to take care of those situations where an employee of government wished to run for political office. In other words,he gave up his employmenf in qnvernment servicewhich is required of him if lie wish to run for poiiticl 5693

November 25, 1982 Tape 2713 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: office. And this Deferred Pension Act gave him the right to hold his pension benefits in that situation. And I think it was a wise thing to do because no one wants to see any individual in this Province prevented in any way if at all possible of running for public office.

So I think that Lt was a c)ood act to bring in when it was brought in. however, the act needs now to be updated to make sure that all individuals in public service have the same benefits , and at the present time this Deferred Pension Act is only read with the old Civil Service Act, the Memorial University Pension Act, and The Teachers' Pension Act. It is not read with the new Iniformed Services Pension Act and it is not read with The Public Service Pension Act itself.

So these individuals who have their pensions coming out , for instance, of the Public Service Pensions Act come under that act, they do not have the protection that is given by this Deferred Pension Act and this is what this amendment is all about; it makes sure that this act is read with those other Pension Acts, All that means is that the individuals who get their pensions under those other also get the benefit from this Act. p 4 5694

S November 25, 1982 Tape 2714 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I am not quite sure if I understand what the hon. gentleman is saying, Mr. Speaker. He started out by telling us that the government did not want to penalize anybody for running to be a member of the House of Assembly, running for elected office, and ,I presume, previous to this act that anybody who ran, his pension was then deferred. DR. COLLINS: It he did not have enough years in he just had no pension. MR. NEARY: Tic had no pension if he did not have the time in. DR.

COLLINS: If he did not have the time in he would not get any pension. MR. NEARY: 1'lell, that goes without saying; if he did not have the time in, he did not qualify. DR. COLLINS: Right. MR. NEARY: Well, then he was not entitled to it. But now when he became a member of the House his pension was deferred. DR. COLLINS: Right. MR. NEARY: And he then started to participate in the MUAs pension fund. DR. COLLINS: Right. MR._NEARY: New, does this have anything to do with the act that we brought in last year? We brought in

an act last year that will give, for instance, the - Lake the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Ilickey) as an example, okay? DR. COLLINS: Yes. MR. NEARY: The Minister of Social Services, under that act that we brought in last year, even though 5695

November 25, 1982 Tape 2714 2 MR. NEARY: he has less time than I do in the House of Assembly, he has four or five years less than myself - MR. TULK: Who? MR. NEARY: The Minister of Social Services (Mr. Ilickey) . He came in in 1966 and I came into the house in 1962. But because of his previous service as a welfare officer, he will jet 100 per cent pension,

whereas [ will only get 75 per cent of my pension. Well, Mr. Speaker, I presume what happened was that unless we bring in this amendment, the hon. gentleman when he retires will not qualify for 100 per cent of his pension because the first part,when he worked in the Public Scrvice,was a deferred pension and he would only qualify -unless we pass this act, I presume - he would only qualify for whatever he is entitled to under the MUA pension plan. Is that correct? DR. COLLINS: Essentially, yes. MR.NEARY: Pardon? DR._COLLINS: Yes, right. MR. NEARY: Okay, basically that is what we are doing then.

We made an amendment last year to the pension plan legislation, but in order to make it work- able I presume now we have to pass this act also. 5696

November 25, 1982 Tape No. 2715 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: I think I would have to agree with the minister that pensions should be portable and should be stacked. The fact that a school teacher, for instance, would have to sacrifice his pension p he would have to think very seriously about whether he is going to run for public office because they have a very generous pension planor at the university or anywhere1and he would not want to have that pension deferred or he would not want to have it disturbed in any way, shape or form if he decided that he wanted to run for elected office.

I do not think that should be a deterent from people making up their minds whether or not they want to become involved in - MR. T. RIDEOUT: As far as teachers go, do their service stack up? MR. NEARY: Pardon. MR. RIDEOUT: As far as teachers go, do their pensions stack up? MR. NEARY: I do not know. But I mean - MR. RIDEOUT: Well, I had it checkoci out and the seven years I spent teaching I understand MR. NEARY: Will now be stocked on your House of Assembly pension. MR. RIDEOUT: Yes. MR.NEARY: Yes, but that is as a result of amendments that we made before. MR. HIDEOUT: Yes, that is what T mean. MR.

NEARY: But now, I think what the minister is saying is that we now have to pass this. There are a number of acts involved and this one is one of the ones that probably escaped their attentIon at the time. Okay? But it may not, I am just using that as a hypothetical case,it probably applies more to the public service than to the teachers. 5697

November 25, 1982 Tape No. 2715 MJ - 2 MR. T. RIDEOUT: Oh, I agree with you. MR. S. NEARY: The point that I am making is that it should not be a doterent from people making up their minds whether or not they want to run for public office. I think all pensions should be portah]n and you * should be able to stack your pension -you know, it should accumulate - you should be able to stack it onto whatever you are entitled to under the House of Assembly. But there is a little bit of unfairness in it for people who are in the House say for twenty/ twenty-five years. After seventeen years they stop contributing and they can only get a maximum of 75 per cent of their top three yearo ,

whereas somebody who has only been in this House,saya minimum of ten years, who had other service in the public services could get 100 per cent pension. Butanyway,I just throw that out as a thought and we are going to support the bill, Mr. Speaker.

November 25, 1982 Tape 2716 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : If the hon. minister speaks now he will close debate. The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader's points,I think,really do not refer directly to this * particular act but, you know, what he says is quite correct, that under the MHA pension plan previously if you had prior service of some sort it could be added on and you could actually get over 100 per cent, you would get more than 100 per cent. MR. NEARY: Correct. DR. COLLINS: nut, you know, that was quite anomalous. I mean that is nonsensical to do that.

The amendment that was brought in last time made the MHA pension plan equivalent to almost all other pension plans, that is where you do not reilly get a pension equivalent to your full salary, you get it equivalent to a percentage of salary and it is usually around 75 per centS And that is what that amendment to the MHA pension plan did, it allowed individuals who :iad fulfilled the vesting qualifications to get 75 per cent of their best three years, if I remember correctly, either their last three years or their best three years, I think it was the best three years, the average of their best three years to get a maximum pension of 75 per cent.

This particular act is somewhat different in that it lust permits individuals who run for public office, who, if this act was not there, would not be eligible for a deferred pension, that is they would have pensionable service in but they would lose that. They would get back their contributions but they would not have a pension coming into them when they finally retired. This allows such individuals to still keep their contributions in there and when they get to retirement age they are eliqible 5699

November 25, 1982 Tape 2716 NM - 2 DR. COLLINS: for a deferred pension. And until this amendment, if the I-louse accepts this amendment, this deferred pension arrangement will apply to all employees in government service who run for political office, not just to some which is what is the case at this moment in time. MR. NEARY: Now all we have to do is to allow the public employees to run. This government frowns on anybody offering themselves. DR. COLLINS: Well, that is another matter too. I mean, at the present time if you run for public office you do have to resign from your employment in public service. MR.

NEARY: That is right. So all we have to do is change that. DR. COLLINS: So at least I:his gives the protection that if that does happen, if you do resign or forego your employment in the public service so a to run for public office, at least now your pension benefits remain in place. I 5700

November 25, 1982 Tape 2717 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: ° I would move second reading on this act. On motion, a bill,

An Act To Amend The Deferred Pensions Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Order 47, Bill No. 58. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Pension (Auditor General) Act, 1968. (Bill No. 58) MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, there is just one purpose to this amendment. the widow of a former Auditor General is now receiving a pension of a certain amount. In The Pension (Auditor General) Act, 1968, it is stated what that amount is.

Now, that amount when it was set was probably a reasonable amount, but at this point in time it is not a reasonable amount. What this amendment does is it allows the survivor of that individual, that former Auditor General, to get 55 per cent of what he would be eligible for, and that is consistent now throughout the Public Service. In other words, survivor benefits are 55 per cent of the non-surviving pensioner's benefits, and it clearly would not be correct for this particular survivor not to cjob what every other surviving beneficiary would get.

So this amendment just rights an anomaly and allows her to also get 55 per cent of the p benefit. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. WEARY: That in fine with us, Mr. Speaker. If we cannot look after the Auditor General, who is a 5701

November 25, 1982 Tape 2717 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: servant of this House, well, nobody can. But I am wondering, I am just sort of thinking out loud here, we only have three servants of this House, the Auditor General, the Comptroller of the Treasury and the Ombudsman. AN HON. MEMBER: That is not truc. MR. NEARY: Yes, they are servants of this House, all three. AN HON. MEMBER: That is not so. MR. NEARY: t bog your pardon? AN lION. MEMBER: Ihat i.s not so. MR. WEARY: yes, Sir. The Ombudsman is set up under

an act of this Legislature and answers to the House of Assembly throucih the Minister of Justice. So we have three. Why, Mr. Speaker, I am asking the Minister of Finance (Dr. CoLlins) ar they not be included in the House of Asaembl (:ould they not be included in the MHAs' pension plan, in the pension plan that covers the members of the house? Would that not be a good place to include these three servants of the House? What about the other staff of the House? MR. MARSHALL: They are paid by a special act. MR. NEARY: Paid by a special act.

Well, would it not be better, more orderly and cleaner to put them in with the House of Assembly pension plan? I just draw that out as a thought, that is all. MR. MARSHALL: I do not think it 5702

November 25, 1982, Tape 2718, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: can be, because it is paid out of Consolidated Revenue Fund. MR.SPEAKER(Russell): If the hon. minister speaks now he closes the debate. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, it would be very awkward to do that because the qut1ifications for an MHA plan means that you would have 10 be elected twice and you have to have so many years service and all that sort of thing. Andobviously the Auditor General is never elected, so it would be very difficult for him to fall under that.

Now, I have an hour's speech to give in the final moving of this motion, but I will forego that hour's speech and I will move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Pension (Auditor General) Act, 1968",(Bill No.58), read a second time,ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 2, Bill No. 63. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. MR. SPEAKER: A message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor to the hon. the Minister of Finance dated November 25, 1982.

Ir 1, the Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Newfoundland, transmit supplementary estimates of sums required for the Public Service of the Province for the year ending the 31st. day of March 1982, by way of Supplementary Supply and in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution Act 1867, as amended, I recommend these estimates to the house of Assembly. (Sgd) ii;-ii ----- 5703

November 25, 1982, Tape 2718, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I move that the message be referred to the Committee of Supply. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply to consider the message of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. cOMMI'rTEE OF SUPPLY MR._CHAIRMANjward): Order, please! MR._MARSHALL: Mr.

Chairman, if I just may before the minister gets up, the Standing Orders in the House with respect to committees of this nature normally give fifteen minutes/fifteen minutes, ten and ten and then the members get up from time to time. You know, they can get up again and again. I would suggest that this be the procedure by which we be governed.

There is a certain question in the act, whether the rules of the House apply, where it is a half hour and a half hour, but I think it has been proven that the best way to handle supply and estimates is the same way as in the Estimates Committee, if the hon. gentlemen will agree. I think that is the way we did it beforo. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it agreed to handle the supply 5704

November 25,1982 Tape No. 2719 ah-1 MR.CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : estimates as we do the regular estimates? SOME HON.MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Finance.

DR.COLLINS: Mr.Chairman, as we are in Committee on Supplementary Supply we are actually debating a resolution 4 and the resolution reads: "That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the public service for the financial year ending the 31st day of March,1982, the sum of thirty-four million seven hundred and one thousand dollars($34,701,000)." But it is the rules of this House that whilst we are debating the resolution we include at this stage of the bill - or during the debate on the resolution we actually cover the bill itself and that is what we will be doing at this time.

The bill itself refers to Supplementary Supply for the last fiscal year and it was required, of course, to bring in this bill because during 1981-82 certain special warrants had to be tabled in this I-louse to cover expenditures which had not been provided for in the estimates that were brought down in the budget in the earlier lart of this year. These were necessary government cxpendltures to provide public services, the special warrants were brought into the House and now this bill, the Supplementary Supply Bill, ratifies or gives permission by this hon.

House of Assembly for those expenditures to have been made. Now all these sums, of course, were laid out at budget time, too, because we brought in the revised estimates when we brought in the budget for this current fiscat year. So these sums were included in those revised figures which were stated to apply to the previous fiscal year. I do not know if there is any question about any of 5705

November 25,1982 Tape No. 2719 ah-2 DR. COLLINS: them, I have given the total amount . The amount L1iI was required for Executive Council was $500,000, for Finance was $6.6 million. The one for Finance was a rather large amountbut that referred particularly to the I3urgeo sea plant and also to an amount that had to be supplied for the Lake group of companies. We will be getting into another bill shortly whereby the amount given there will also be brought out. The amount for the Department of Development was $1.3 million and that again was another aspect of the l3urgeo sea plant situation.

And Education was also - I missed Transportation, $1.6 million for Transportation. That had to do with road maintenance , Winter road maintenance essentially. We had extra heavy snowfalls that year. The Department of Ec1ucation was over $8 million of S 5706

November 25, 1982 Tape 2720 PK - 1 DR. COLLINS: and I have the breakdown on that if hon. members wish to see it. Social Services $800,000; Health was $8.9 million, I have a breakdown on that, if required; Municipal Affairs was $2.3 million approxiiiiately; Culture, Recreation and Youth just over $400,000; and Justice was $3.5 million. But I would reiterate that these figures were included in the revised estimates which were supplied with the estimates given for this current fiscal yer.

So we are really just going through the necessary procedure but we are not really in many respects bringing new information into the Committee. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, as the minister has made clear this is pretty stale potatoes as far as legislation goes. It is a commentary, I guess, on the way in which this House is run, not a commentary on the system but a commentary on the way in which this House is run.

And here we are near enough to the end of November being acked to approve expenditures which were incurred in the financial year which ended on 31 March, and that is-what?--cight month; ago now. It is not a commentary on the system because even with the best will in the world and with the most skillful estimating in the world the government's estimates of expenditure for a financial year which are tabled either before that year begins or very early in the year, those estimates are only estimates and they can only be as good as estimates can be.

Nobody ever expects them to be perfect. ;o the idea of supplementary supply in theory is not in itself a bad one or a wrong one or an offensive one. What is offensive is that the House is being asked now,eight or nine months after the end of the 5707

November 25, 1982 Tape 2720 PE - 2 MR. ROBERTS: fiscal year , seven or eight months after the accounts for the fiscal year have been ciosed A month or two or three, whatever it may be, before the Auditor General's report on the fiscal "ear which ended 31 March 1982 is tabled and made public, here we are being asked at this stage to ratify $34.7 million.

Now if that does not make a mockery of the whole principlo that this House controls the purse, if this does not make a mockery of the principle the government can spend only what the House authorizes them to spend,thcn I do not know how there could be a mockery of anything or how there could be i falling away from any principle greater than that. 0 5700

November 25, 1982 Tape 2721 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: There is no real point debating it. You know I thought at first when I heard the minister speak that perhaps we should ask him to give us details of the three, six, nine heads f expenditure which are listed here as wanting supplementary supply.

He quite rightly points out that the estimats for the '82-'83 year which were tabled by him at the time of his budget presentation at the end of May, the end of the second month of the fiscal year, that those budget estimates for the current year had appended to them the revised estimates for the year ending 31 March 1981, the year in respect of which supplementary supply is now sought. That is true.

But I would suggest to the minister that if he genuinely wants the House to have information, and I accept that he does (Jenuinely want the House to have information, it might be much more helpful if there was tabled, or at least made available to members, a breakdown of the $34.7 million assigned to subheadn. Because as the House is well aware, the Committee are well aware, our estimates are grouped into heads and then divided into subheads. Not a bad way at all to do it. Here we only have a head of expendLture.

We know that an extra $8.953 million has been spent within the head, Head XV, the Department of Health. But unless one was to go through each of the 30 or 40 individual subheads, and the 300 or 400 individual items which t iken together make up those subheads in Head XV, we have no way to know where the money is being spent, or where the money has been spent, to be more precise. So really what we are being asked to do is to ratify now a $34.7 million overrun without the 5709

November 25, 1982 Tape 2721 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: least idea in the world of how it has been incurred, or where it has been spent except in the vory most general ways. we know that Health over- spent by $8.953 million, We do not know whether it is good, bad or indifferent. We do not know on what it is spent. It would really be a very difficult task for anybody with the information publicly available, to find out that information. I am not even sure you could. But if you could it would take a very great deal of time to do it.

So I suggest to the minister that if he genuinely wants the house to have information, and I believe he does although at times his conduct belies that, but I believe he does want the House to have information, the people of the Province, and I am sure that his soul mate, the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), wants the public to have information because he tells us so so often. MR. NEARY: And because he felt that it is true. MR. ROBERTS: It is So. If I say it is so, it is so, as the gentleman from St. John's East would say. And,of course,we will have to let the actions speak for themselves.

They do speak louder than words. So the real question is whether the minister - MR. NEARY: 1-fe told us yesterday the Premier was leading a deleciation to Etrope and that was not true. He made a statenisnt prepared by the propoqandists ckMn on the eiqhth floor. MR. ROBERTS: Well, the Premier may think he is leading a delegation to Europe. I mean,I say to my friend from LaPoile, the Opposition Leader (Mr. Neary) , thai 5710

November 25, 1982 Tape No. 2722 MJ - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: the Premier may believe he is leading a delegation to Europe, and Napoleon also believed he won the Battle of Waterloo. I have no idea what passes in the Premier's mind. The Premier may well have believed that. I heard the member fran Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir(Mr. H. Andrews), the Minister of Enviconment stand up yesterday and prattle on about protocol. I do not know where he qets his information,but he does not g€t it from protocol officers.

The Premier of a province, the member of an executive council of any province has no standing in precedence outside that province. The Premier may have standing outside the Province as a Privy Councillor of Canada and he is a Privy Councillor of Canada. lie is a member of the Queen's Privy Council, he is entitled to be called hon. for life and he has the precedence to which that entitles him.. In this Province it puts him behind the hon. W. J. Browne, the hon. Charles R. Granqer, the hon. Donald Jamieson, the hon. John Crosbie, the hon. James McGrath, and well behind the hon. Joseph R.

Smallwood, all of whom are members of the Privy Council of Canada, all of whom are senior in the Privy Council to the present Premier of the Province. But i.f the Premier has any precedence on this junket overeas - and,by the way,I think it is a trip that had to be ma,le, I am not sure it had to be made in quite the style it i: beinq made but I think it. is a trip that had to be made, lot mc' make that clear. MR. L. HEARN: They are flying. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry MR. HEARN. They are flying. MR. ROBERTS: They are flying. I hope they are flying.

My Lord it is bad enough having them gone for ten days on the junket, but if they went by boat it would take them weeks to row across the Atlantic. 5711

November 25, 1982 Tape No. 2722 MJ - 2 MR. F. STAGG: (Inaudible) row? MR.E. ROBERTS: I am surprised that the gentleman from Stephenville (Mr. F. Stoog) does not believe the Premier would walk across. ShallI will leave it at that? My friend from Grand Falls (Mr. L. Simms) and the member from Naskaupi I (Mr. J. Goudie) have got the point unlike the gentleman from Stephenville who has a pronounced ability to miss the point of any witticism that catches him whore he sits. Now, Mr. Chairman, let me come back, you know MR. J. MCLENNON: I must write that down, that is nice. MR. E. ROBERTS: Sir, they are at it again now.

Lcek, the member for St. Jchn's North (Mr. J. Carter) is not here and we have a few tryinq to rise to his level and the qentleman - where is he from? - it is the first time I have heard from him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS: SOME lION. MI R]RS: MR. J. MCLENNON: to know where I am from. MR. ROBERTS: MR. MCLENNON: to know where I am from. 01, oh! Wi nsor-Buchans? OI , on! YOU are not here long enough What was that? You are not hero ionq enough or often enough I MR.

ROBERTS: Not only am I not here long enough or often enough to know where the hon. gentleman is from, I would venture that none of his constituents know where he is from but they know where he is going, and we will see that in the next election. MR. MCLENNON: They Will know, I will be here. 5712

November 25, 1982 Tape 2723 EC -- 1 The hon. gentleman from Windsor - Buchans (Mr. McLennon) let me give him a word of advice now, he may not want to take it, he is going to be one of the original one-term members in this House, so let him ride along and enjoy it for what it is worth, let him do what good he can do and let him emulate his friend from Humber West (Mr. Baird) , who is a shrowd, dedicated public servant, wily, wiry, competent, dedicted. MR. SIMMS: lie sure is wily. MR. ROBERTS: My friend from Grand Falls says the gentleman from Humber West is wily. They do not know how wily he is.

I will tell you, one of the joys of my life, one of the educational experiences of my short but not uncrowded career has been my association with the gentleman from Humber West. I learn from him daily, good things and some other things as well. I tell you, the story of the trip to Victoria is one of the great ones. MR. SIMMS: Oh, oh MR. ROBERTS: No, it was perfectly genuine in every sense of the word. We attended the meetings and we learned and I think the Public Accounts Committee have benefited from it. Would my friend from ilumber West not agree? MR. BAIRD: That is correct. MR.

ROBERTS: We are as one, heart to heart soul to soul, cheek to cheek - MR. NEARY: You have never gone on a Mockey Night with him, have you? MR. ROBERTS: No, I have never gone on a Mockey Night. MR. SIMMS: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: What was that? - some witticism? 5713

November 25, 1982 Tape 2723 EC - 2 • SIMMS: YOU tel I 1im the story, 'Steve'. MR. STAGC: Lounge to lounge. AN HON. MEMBER: That is another story. MR. ROBERTS: Lounge to lounge? No, I have never travelled with my friend from Stephenville (Mr. Staqg) he will tell me about that. But Mockey Nights, no, the only Mockey Nights I see are some of the debates that we have been subjected to in here. Mr. Chairman, I stray somewhat. I realize that Supply is - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

ROBERTS: There is some money here for the Executive Council and that does include, presumably, our Premier's world travels, North European division. But, you know, a little more seriously, if the Minister of Finance (Dr. CoLlins) - this is the point I was making - and his soul mate, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) his intellectuaL life's mate, his helpmate, his friend - bosom, they - MR. SIMMS: Bum to bum. MR. ROBERTS: No, no Lord Durham once said, 'Two nations warring in the bosom of a single state', this is two states warring in the bosom of a single nation, the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall) and the gentleman from St. John's South (Dr. Collins). They are separated by the Narrows physically, but the gulf between them intellectually, Sir, is not as wide as the Narrows and the Narrows are very narrow indeed, as Your Honour, being from Kilbride and being a surveyor, is well aware. And they may be separated physically by the Narrows, but intellectually and emotionally and down where it counts, 4 S 5714

November 25,1982 'rape No. 2724 ah-1 MR.ROBERTS: they are not separated even by a jot or a tittle or an iota. MR. BAT RB: Pelevancy, Mr. Sxakor. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.ROBERTS: I will say it is relevant, Mr. Speaker - Mr. Chairman. I am sorry. My friend from liumber West (Mr.Baird) does not even know that this is the Committee. He has forgotten his days of glory and of power, raw and naked power,when he sat in the Chair as an adornment to the parliamentary tradition going back to Simon de Montfort's parliament , as he does, as he does. Mr.

Chairman, I think my friend the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Ncary) who has now returned wants to say a few thousand well chosen words . I have covered all the points I want to make. Look,seriously, Mr.Chairman, this bill is a mockery. It really is. You know, it will be passed. It is a mockery of what is going on in this Province today. Nine months after the fiscal year ends we are being asked to approve money that has been spent, we are being given no explanations. We can stand here and scream and shout, it is not going to get us anywhere.

The Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins), if he genuinely wants to improve the quality of public life in this Province insofar as it lies within 4 his department and ministerial rosponsibilitios, let him from now on - I do not mind the idea of supplementary supplyq that has always been and doubtless always will be, but let him provide the people of this Province with some meaningful operation. And, Mr. Chairman, having said that I will sit down. II anybody on the other side provokes me niercitessly 5715

November 25,1982 'lope No. 2724 ah-2 MR.ROBERTS: as they wont to do on occasion I shall - MR.NEARY: We are going to go into Committee of the Whole now, are we? MR.ROBERTS: We are in Committee of the Whole. We can speak more than once as long as we are relevant to the subject of the SuppLy llill,and there is no way to be irrelevant to the topic of Supplementary Supply, Mr.Chairman. I do not think Your 1-lonour with Your flonours wide knowledge of the parliamentary rules could find anything irrelevant to this Supplementary Supply Bill. MR. STAGG: Needless repetition. That is the only way to get you there.

MR.ROBERTS: Needless repetition. Well, they wrote that rule, you know, to try to get me. I think my friend from Stephcnville (Mr. Stagg) was in the Chair then, I think he was in the Chair then. MR.STAGG: it was not you. It was the former member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR.ROBERTS: The former member for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir has gone on to greater heights and is still climbing. I assure you that my former colleague, my friend from l3urqeo Bay dEspoir is but paused on the way up. What was it Disraeli called it? The greasy pole, was it not? Disraeli called it the greasy pole. DR. COLLINS: flooded for outer space.

MR.ROBERTS: Beaded for outer space. No I do not think no. I think he is headed for the summits, he is headed for heights that the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) can but dimly perceive. MR.STAGG: Headed for the Annieopsquotch Mountains. 5716

November 25,1982 Tape No. 2724 ah-3 MR.ROBERTS: Headed for the Annieopsquotch Mountains. Well they are probably iii his constituency, are they not? Are they not in

part in his constituency and

part in St. Georges? Does St. Gcorgos include Annieopsquotch? I guess it is a large polling area in the Annieopsquotch Mountains,is it not? It is like Northeast Crouse. Well we will see about that. Mr. Chairman, the bill is a mockery. We can make the point, we have made it, so I will not weary Your Honour any further. If the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) has anything worthwhile to say we will respond to it. If not we might as well put this through the resolution stage. That is the end of 5717

November 25, 1982, Tape 2725, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: the debate because, of course, under the rules of the house the bill is then given all three readings. Let us get on to something more worth- while. Perhaps we could have another go at exposing the conduct of the ministry with respect to this year's budget while there is still some hope of trying to bring them to their senses. On motion, resolution carried. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 3, Bill No. 67. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Loan And Guarantee Act, 1957'. (J3ill No. 67) MR. The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, we again are - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR._COLLINS: Marvellous! Marvellous! Thank you. Thank you. MR. NEARY: What happened? What happened? DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, we are again debating a resolution and the resolution is: "It is expedient to bring in a measure further to amend The Loan And Guarantee Act, 1957, the Act No. 70 of 1957, to provide for the advance of loans to and the guarantee oC the repayment of bonds or debentures issued by or loans advanced to certain croporations". Mr. Chairman, what this - and as in the Supplementary Supply Bill, we debate in Committee not only the resolution but also the bill itself.

The bill is to amend the

schedule to the Act as is required, and it means that we have to update the House of Assembly on any loans and guarantees that were given by government since the last amendment to this Act. Now, the bill before the House has rather extensive explanatory notes attached to it laying out what all the loans and guarantees were all about. 5718 4

November 25, 1982, Tpe 2725, Page 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS: I think that is really as much as I need to say at this stage. If there are any questions about any particular one I will be glad to try to supply any answers that are required. I move the resolution. On motion, resolution carried. DR. COLLINS: Order 4, Bill No. 68. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957. (Bill No. 68). MR. CHAIRMAN(Aylward): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Chairman, this resolution is: "That it is expedient to bring in a measure further to amend Thc Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957, to provide for tht, guarantee of the repayment of loans made to, and the advance of loans to certain Local Authorities." It is very sii1ar to LOr lost bill. 0 5719

November 25, 1982 Tape 2726 NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: This is to update the House on the new

schedule attached to this Act. MR. NEARY: What: is the number of the bill? ft DR. COLLINS: This is Bill 684 The

schedule shows the local authorities which have been given loans a or guarantees since the last amendment was brought into this House. I might say that the vast majority of these loans and guarantees were for water and sewer services, some of them for roads but the vast majority for water services, or sewer services. Just in case the House needs reminding, what happens in these instances is that local authority will borrow money to bring these capital works on stream and the government guarantees the loan which the municipality obtains from the bank.

And that guarantee stays in place until the NMFC, the Newfoundland Municipal Finance Corporation borrows on the Province's credit an amount of money with which to repay the loan to the bank and then the guarantee, of course, comes off, The responsibility is then upon the municipality to repay the bond or the amount of the bond to NMFC, and if that is not done by the municipality the Department of Municipal Affairs picks up the responsibility. So with those words I move the resolution. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 5720

November 25, 1982 Tape 2726 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we are not going to prolong the debate on this bill. This is standard procedure,to bring into the House a bill, "An Act To Amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act. Those guarantees have already been given, now they have to be endorsed and approved by the House. Because we are supporting the bill, or not voting acjainst the bill,I suppose, does not necessarily mean that we agree with all the loans and guarantees that have been given out for water and sewerage and for municipal road paving and so forth. We have 4. 5721

November 25, 1982 'rape 2727 PK - 1 MR. NEAR?: argued in this House, Mr. (hairnkin, time and time again that a list should be tabled at the time the Budget is brought down, when the estimates are being debated in this house, that a list of all water and sewer projects for the current fiscal year be laid on the table of this house. There is too much politics involved A. in the selection of communities for water and sewerage. And there is too much waste of taxpayer money, Mr. Chairman, too much waste. MR. TOBIN: 110w? MR. NEARY: I will tell the hon. gentleman how.

Right down in the hon. gentleman's own district there is a bit of waste - MR. TOBIN: Where? MR. NEAR?: - in connection with a sewer outlet that was put in in the •Burin, I forget what they call it now, the Burin - MR. NEAR?: MR. TOBIN: you were born. MR. NEAR?: Well, it is there. iLIC 0U1 in L3ay t LLuu. Ilurin tay Arm. Ha, ha. That was before you were Oh,before I was born, I see. It was put their by the Tories. MR. T0I3IN: Burin Bay Arm? MR. NEAR?: Yes, Mr. chairman, I was doinq some research a couple of years ago on that particular project and we have - the hon. gentleman - 4' MR. TOBIN: You are mixed up. MR.

NEAR?: I am not mixed up. The hon. I gentleman should he aware that we have water and sewer projects that have been completed, that the sewerage is in the ground and I do not believe- well, maybe in the last several months, I have not checked on it lately - MR. SIMNS: You are talking about Winter Works projects. 5722

November 25, 1982 Tape 2727 P1< - 2 MR. NEARY: No, not Winter Works projects, projects that are being funded under The Municipal Guarantee Act. A flushing toilet has not gone through it yet, just laying there, it was installed incorrectly, wrong. MR. TOBIN: Not in my district. MR. NEARY: Not in the hon. gentleman's district. The hon. gentleman is only a Johnnie Cone Lately, and he does not understand, Mr. Chairman. The hon. gentleman made a complete fool of himself in front of a delegation from his district today, they saw the hon. gentleman for what he is.

Now, if I were the hon. gentleman I would go look for a hole to crawl in and then I would Lake the hole with me, Mr. Chairman. MR. TOBIN: I There are not too many holes left that you are not after being in. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the fact of the matter is that the list should be tabled in this House. There is too much politics involved in determining what communities should get water and sewerage and municipal paving and so on. And we have an awful lot of waste. 1. 5723

November 25, 1982 Tape 2728 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: We had a case on the Great Northern Peninsula, we had a case in Placentia. Perhaps the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) can tell us if the sewer is now flowing through the sewer lines in South- east Placentia. In Placentia, a sewer system that was put in the ground, that was poorly pLinned, and if anybody - Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman should be an expert on sewers. If there is a member of this House who is an expert on sewers I am sure it is the hon. mcmber for Placentia. And can he tell us now if the sewer lines are carrying the - MR.

PATTERSON: You are the only bit of sewage that I know of. And it will not be completed until you are flushed through. SOME I-ION. MEMBERS: hear, heer MR. PATPERSON: If you decide to run against me that will do it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I knew I would wake the hon. gentleman up. MR. PATTERSON: I am sorry. I was dreaming. MR. NEARY: I knew I would wake him up. It is the first reaction we have gotten from the hon. gentleman since the House resumed sitting. AN lION. MEMBER: lie is researching. Boy SOME HON. MEMBERS: hear, hear! MR.

NEARY: I was beginning to wonder for a while if the hon. gentleman was awake or asleep. The hon. gentleman is the Whip, he is the whip, he should be very alert. But, Mr. Chairman, all these projects have been bought and paid for. There was one on the Great Northern Peninsu)a. There was one in Placentia. There was one .572k

November 25, 1982 Tape 2728 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: in Buriii Bay Arm. They are all over the place - in Torbay and Pouch Cove where they had to call the bonds. MR. SIMMS: They would have been undertaken in Liberal times. MR. NEARY: Pouch Cove and Torbay. MR. DINN: If they do not perform they call the bond. MR. NEARY: They call the bond if they do not perform. But how mud did it cost the taxpayers? So, rir. Chairman, we are nct gettinq enough information on these projects4 If we had the list tabled in the House we could have a thorough debate at the time that we are passing the estimates 5725

November 25, 1982 Tape 2729 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: and then when the Local Authority Guarantee Act came into the House we would be briefed right up to date on what was happening. So, Mr.Chairman, I understand that one of my other colleagues, our spokesman on Municipal Affairs, is going to have a few words on this,but I do not think there is any need for a prolonged debate. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hen, the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Ch-tirmani I simply want to endorse some of the words and soitie of the statements made by my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) particularly - MR.

TOBIN: You are the type of man to endorse the Leader of the Opposition? MR. LUSh: Yes, and do so proudly. And, Mr. Chairman, although we will not hold up this particular bill, the point needs to be made, and made again and again ro the politics involved in terms of the water and sewer and particularly roads. We have requested on many, many occasions that the qovernmciit table the list, Mr.C1airman, of the projects to he undertaken. 'ie have not yet had the list for roid projects in this Province in the last year although we have been told by the minister that he was qoinq to table the list.

We are still waitnq for the list and except for what I see when I am driving by a fey of the hon. members' districts opposite, I would not know if there was any paving going on. But I happen to drive by a few of the districts and see the paving going on from time to time. And I am sure that many of my constituents, if they kno that I was approving these loan qiiarantces, t'eC: they would be 5726

November 25, 1982 Tape 2729 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: very angry knowing, of course, that it is their monies that is being paid to pave roads and to put water and sewer systems in other districts, and they have been waiting for years and years 5727

November 25, 1982 'lope no. 2730 MJ - 1 Mr.T._LUSH: to qet an equal share of the public dollaro of this Province. But they keep waitinq, Mr. Chairman. There is not a member, Mr. Chairman, and I have something to say on that, because again that is the political level coming in - there is not a member that has made more approaches in terms of delegations, in writing letters to ministers. As a matter of facttlie minister might hear about it very shortly because I have been maligned in this respect and I am doing my research and I have come up - AN liON. MEMBER: Iluw many letters have you written? MR.

LUSH: How many letters? MRSIMMS (Tnnijdihle). MR._LUSH: There is not one minister in my research, there is not one minister in Transportation whom I have not contacted over the years. And I do not know the numbers of - MR. L. SIMMS: 110w many do you want? Do you want public radio monitored positions and (inaudible)? MR. LUSH: Yes. I have no idea, I expect they are coming. And there will be more.

But, Mr. chairmim, I am presently doing some research now and there is not a minister out of the five that we have had since I have been in this House that I have not made representation to in terms of letters, or gone to see them, brought in delegations and presented petitions. Not one minister. The Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. J. Dinn) now, J had gone to see him when he was Minister of Transportation, I have gone to see the present Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) when he was Minister of Transportation, I have gone to see the member for Trinity North (Mr. C.

Brett) when he was Minister of Transportation and I have letters all documenting it. So, 5728

November 25, 1982 Tape No. 2730 MJ - 2 MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am not ashamed of the representation that J have made to this government in terms of trying to get roads paved in the Terra Nova district. And I would expect there is not a member present in this House, on either side, who has made more representation. There is not one. But, Mr. Chainiian, the [etters will come from my constituents make no doubt about it. But they would be very aggravated and very angry today if they knew that I was standing here and supporting this measure today of coursewithout giving these few rornarksoncj Lolking about 5729

November 25, 1982 Tape 2731 NM - 1 MR. LUSH: how they have been neglected, how they have been discriminated against, Mr. Chairman, how they have been not treated equally in this Province today. They would be very, very annoyed, very, very annoyed, Mr. Chairman, to know that their tax dollars are going to pay these loans and they are not getting anything for it. Hut, Mr. Chairman, we will continue pressing on And this kind of tactic does not wash in the Terra Nova district, or it does noL wash in any other district.

The people of this Province are smart enough to know the kind of game that this government is playing, Mr. Chairman, their pork barrelling tactics particularly in the Denartmc'nts of Municipal Affairs and Transportation, Mr. Chairman. So we are eagerly awaiting the list of roads that have been paved in this Province. We asked for that document in the Estimates Committees last 'nring, and we were assured by the minister that they were going to be tabled in this House. But they never were. They never were. Thai never were tabled.

The estimates for paving of roads in this district were never tabled, and to my knowledge were never made public. I know I onquired several times after the house closed and never received the information. And, Mr.

Chairman, that is certainly a ridiculous situation, to know that we come here and approve monies, we do not know where they are going, particularly the Transportation capital expenditurcs,which is very important to the people of rural Nuwfoundlanch And they have no idea of where roads are being paved apart from the fact they might now and again find a little squib in their local newspapers by one of the members opposite announcing that they are qoing to be pavinq roads, five miles of road somewhere, or they are ging to be putting .5730

November 25, 1982 Tape 2731 NM - 2 MR. LUSH: the water and sewer in somewhere. But, Mr. Chairman, certainly as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) said, we should have tabled in this House a list of all the water and sewer projects in this Province, and additionally we should have a list of all the roads that are going to be paved, or upgraded, reconstructed whatever the situation is, all of the capital expenditures for roads in this Province. And we certainly did not get that list, we asked for it.

The minister gave us an understaking that he was going to table the list but it has not been tabled at this point in time. So, Mr. Chairman, I would certainly advise this government if they are going to treat the people of this Province fairly, if they are going to treat the people of this Province justly, certainly to do so, to spend the 5731

November 25, 1982 Tape No. 2732 lB-i MR. LUSH: public dollars of this Province equally and fairly and justly in all of the areas of this Province. Mr. Chairman, I am amused when I read hack over past documents by the government.I'irst when this hon. crowd got in they came in with some great documentswith some great plans. And one of their documents relatncj to transportation was that road construction, upgrading and paving in the Province was going to be contingent upon resource development. Well, Mr.

Chairman,onc can go around this Province and see where they have paved roads in the last few years and not a resource there, Mr.Chairman, not a resource. It is happening all the time. They make those rules, they never subscribe to them but it sounds nice, it is motherhood stuff, these pious platitudes that the roads are going to be paved in areas based on resource development. I have got a fish plant, Mr. Chairmau,e of the most prosperous fish plants in the Province, in the community of Salvage. Seven miles of pavement is all we need from Eastport to Salvaqe. And,Mr.

Chairman,j have been requesting that for eight. years now and no response. AN HON. MEMBER: What, do you think (inaudible) MR. LUSH: T will ca]l him, he is a good man. I will be there in a few moments. So, Mr. Chairman, the people of my district would be very unhappy, very disenchanted, very disgruntled, very upset, very aggravated, to know that I would be supporting measures for the guaranteeing of loans for which, of course, they get no benefits, for which their tax dollars are used to pay oFf these loans, to meet the commitments. But they (jet no benefits in terms of roads, Mr.

Chairman, in terms of water and sewer. Why, Mr. Chairman? MR. NEARY: Woll,turn it down. MR. LUSH: Again my constituents would c7. ,) 0/ LJI.

November 25, 1982 Tape No. 2732 IB-2 MR. LUSH: understand, they would know why we are not gettin any roads because they know those people, that the hon. members opposite are not one bit interested. But, Mr. Chairman, the day will come, I am afraid, when they will have to reckon with these people. MR. CHAIRMAN (AYLWARI)) Order, please! The hon. member's time has expired. MR. NEARY: By leave! By Leave! MR. LUSH: Oh,by golly. Sorry, Mr. Chairman. Sorry! SOrry! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

It being almosL five o'clock now I wish to bring to the attention of the House that the Chair has received two questions for debate on the Late Show, one from the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), and one from the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) for the Minister of Rural and i\gricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie). MR. NEARY: What are the questions? MR. CHAIRMAN: The questions are, to the Minister of Transportation regarding navincjs connected with snow and ice control this Wnter as compared with last Winter, under

Section 31. And the one from the member for 5733

November 25, 1982 Tape 2733 PK - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (ward) Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) , he is not satisfied with the answer given by the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie), re federal/provincial nature funding. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Native! Native! MR. 1IAW Oh,native,is it? Excuse me! Native funding, I could not make out the writing. The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Chaizman, just a few comments and I will try to keep them as non-controversial as I can, and I will do it very, very quie'ly, but I hope the House would iindnrst.and it was necossary for me to get to my feet and respond to the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), who indicated that this Province somehow was derelict in its responsbilities to the people of his particular district or, in fact, some other districts eround the Province as it relates to the capital expenditure on roads.

I have heard the hon. member quote from time to time that not one five cents has been spent in his district and that the people of his district are being denied their just rewards aa it relates to this important facet of Newfoundland life. I would just like to indicate to this hon. House and for the information of the hon. member for Terra Nova some of the facts since 1976. In 1975-1976 there were $194,244 spent on capital works in Terra Nova district. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hoar, hear! MR.

DAWE: In 1976-1977 there were $964,265, almost a million dollars, Mr.Choi.rman, spent in the hon. member's district on roads, on capital works. MR. Sfl44S: A Liberal district 57314

November 25, 1982 Tape 2733 P1K - 2 MR. DAME: In 1977-1978 there was another $30,000 spent on capital works NERY: Liberal money. MR. DAWE: No, provincial money. All provincial money so Jar, every cent provincial rrnney. Every single cent that I have mentioned so far is provincial money. SOME HON. MEMBERS: hear, hear! MR. DAME: In 1977-1978 another $46,000 spent on capital works jr the hon. member's district, again all provincial funding. In 1979-1980 another $56,000 spent on capital works, all provincial money again in the hon. member's district. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

DAME: In 1980-1981, Mr.Ehairrnan, more recently than the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) wishes to go back, $2,808,000 spent in the hon. member's district, 50/50 cost shared with the federal government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DAME: $1,400,000 of completely provincial funding in that particular amount. MR. TOBIN: In a Liberal district? U 5735

November 25, 1982 Page 2734 CC - 1 rin. SIMflS: All that money in a Liberal districL? The minister should resign. MR. DAWE: In 1981 - 1982, Mr. Chairman, another $40,000 in Capital Works spent in the hon. member's district; in this particular year alone, Mr. Chairman, in related pro jects in the member's district, another $604,000 for asphalt, guardrails, guide rails, calcium chloride and other miscellaneous items snent in the hon. member's district. M1LSIMNS: A Liberal district. Rcsign, boy! Resign! MR. DAWE: I would like to indicate to this hon. House that this government, Mr.

Chairman, takes its responsibility in ensuring that the Province has adequate roads not only in good Tory districts but also it takes care of the people who are unfortunate enough to be represented by members opposite. SOME HON._MEMBERS: hear, hear! MR. IIODDER: Mr. Chairman. MR.hhAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! Before we go on to the hon. the member for Port so Port (Mr. Hodder) , I wish to clarify the question for the Late Show from the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) . I was handed the wrong question. His question is to the hon. the Minister of Cinance (I)r.

Sri lisa) concrrninq the tax on commercial fuel. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, it is after 5:00 P.M. MR. SPEAKER: No, that was handed to the Chair yesterday but I was given the wrong one. The hon. the member for Port au Port. 5736

November 25, 1982 Tape 2734 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: I just wanted to say a few words, Mr.Chairman, about a particular situation in my own district, but before I do that I would like to say to the minister, I do not know what he has been doing for the district of Terra Nova but I will say that I would like him to read out figures like that for the district of Port au Port.

Because, Mr.Chairman, the only time that this government has ever done anything for Port au Port was when a road was crumbling away because the action of the sea had been eating away the cliff underneath the road and the road was about to collapse, and I think I got something like 200 feet of pavement one time back in 1978, but except for that, nothing but maintenance funds, although I do notice that over in the member's district which adjoins mine, every little cow path, every little road, oven Black Duck Siding which has Summer cottages, the whole works, Mr. Chairman, have been paved.

And not only would I tell the hen. members opposite that while I live in a district which has received no funds for some seven or eight years, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. flawe) has - AN HON. MEMBER: How about bi1inqua signs? MR. HODDER: Yes, bilingual signs we certainly would like. We have been promised those for quite a long time too. We have never received the bilingual signs. We were proniised by the former minister, now Senator Doody, who was then Minister of Transportation, that we would get bilingual signs and we were promised by the now Minister of lisherios (Mr.

Morgan) who was then Minister of Transportation and Communications that we would get bilingual signs. We have been promised bilingual signs 5737

November 25, 1982, Tape 273, Page 1 -- MJ MR._IIODDER: for the past seven or eight years, and that is a little expondi Lure which would cost perhaps $10,000 - $5,000 or $6,000 or $7,000 - which would recognize the fact that there is a French culture in this Province. MR. STAGE: (lnaudible). MR._HODDER: I would say this: That the hon. member also made representation to his own government, because I have seen letters that he wrote, and he was unsuccessful in getting road signs as well. MR. STAGE: Nhy not let the architect? MR. OTTENHEIMER: It was vetoed by the member for Eagle River(Mr. Hiscock). IIR.IIODDER: Mr.

Chairman, since the Minister of Justico(Mr. Ottenheimer) brought up bilingual road signs - SOME lION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. IIODDER: If hon. members opposite would tone down, Mr. Chairman, I could be heard in silence - the Minister of Justice just reminded me of something that I feel is very important, that we do have a French minority in this Province, and while the federal government has made it an official bilingual district, that means, Mr.

Chairman, they use bilingual policemen in that area, that all federal services to that district now call for bilingual personnel; while the Province, on the other hand, has never recognized officially that it is a bilingual district, and, Mr. Chairman, on a number of occasions - and I will refer to the member for Stephenville(Mr. Stagg), who used to be the member for Port au Port prior to 1975 when I became the member - and I have over the years on a number of occasions asked for bilingual road signs. AN lION. MEMBER: Bilingual roads. MR.

HODDER: If the member would just keep his yap shut so I could get my point across. 5738

November 25, 1982 Tape NC). 2735 MJ - 2 MR. G. WARREN: Bilingual road signs. MR. HODDER: Bilingual road signs. Yes, that is what T am sayincj,if members opposite would let me speak. But, Mr. thairman, I have on a number of occasions asked for bilingual road signs and I believe that it would be not only a recognition of the fact that the majority of people in a number of communities on the Port au Port Peninsula are French speaking not only will it recognize that fact,.but it would also make it more visible because we do I 57 :39

November 25, 1982 Tape 2736 NM - 1 get an awful lot of tourists from the Province of Quebec, we get visitors from the MaqdaLen Islands, we get visitors from New Brunswick, we get visitors from Nova Scotia who are French speaking. And we aLso receive visitors from St. Pierre where there are some family ties. And I believe it would be fitting, and I would ask the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) again, who I see is writing and taking notes as I speak - MR. NEARY: lie is going to try to give you a flick now. He thinks he got something there now. MR.

PlODDER: I wouLd ask the minister, and I do not believe I have forwarded my request to this particular minister although I have asked his immediate predecessor, the two previous to that, I have made the request on a number of occasions and I understand that the associations in the district have made requests on a number of occasions, We have always been told yes, but the signs are not there. And I would suggest now, and I would not have spoken on this when I got up but the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) reminded mc of it, I would suggest now quite sincerely and with no partisan intent in view whatsoever, I would ask the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) if he would indeed be the minister of the four I have asked, and I now ask him, if he would indeed provide bilingual road signs for the areas? MR. NEARY: None down there at all now? MR. HODDER: Not one. It is more than just recognizing the unique Newfoundland culture. The French in the Port au Port area, some of the families arrived there from Acadia, some of them came from St. Pierre via 5740

November 25, 1982 Tape 2736 NM - 2 MR. HODDER. Red Island,which was a fishing station when that was the French Shore of the Province, and particularly the people of Mainland, which is Le Grand Pierre Red island was off Mainland and they used to come over to the Great Land, and there are some very interesting stories. I have read reports from people in the time of Lqapoleon who came over - which have been written up in historical magazines - who came over and that was one of the major fishing stations. That is how the French became so prominent in Port au Port.

They were first established there in the 1700s by the French fishing fleets and Red Island, Isle Rouge, was the place where they landed. But, Mr. Chairmar this area of the Province has a very unique history, and has a very unique population and they are a cultural group who are struggling very much to save their cultural identity,and I believe it would be fitting to place these bilingual road signs down there as has been asked. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to talk about one particular problem which ,when I looked at the Loan and Guarantee Act, came to my mind. [ have no quarrel with the fact that the Town of St. Georges in the Minister of Transportation's (Mr. Dawo) district received $400,000 last year for q 571

November 25,1982 'Iapc No. 2737 ah-1 MR. HODDER: 400,000 last year for the water and sower and $510,000 for the second phase this year. I have no quarrel with that nor do I have a quarrel with the fact that the town of Stephenville Crossing is receiving $425,000 over twenty years, no quarrel whatsoever. I believe that those two areas should have received this funding.

However, Mr.Speaker, there is a community in my district which is basically a dormitory town for the town of Staphenville, it is one of the fastest growning areas - and I would submit the fastest growing town perhaps outside of Pasadena although Pasadena has sort of reached a certain stage in its growth now-but Kippcns has become the area for growth outside of Stophenville. This growth started with the opening of the !.inerboard mill but it accelerated1i would say,in about 1974 or 1975.

It was a small rural community, but because of the characterists of the land there and because of the richness of the soil, I suppose, it was the natural area it you fly over Bay f't. Georqe or anywhere on the West Coast, it was the area for growth near Stephonvitle. And I think hon. member might have heard rontrovers es in this House regarding Area 13. This is an area in the town of Stephenville which was developed by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing ten years years ago and was ready for Ocrupancy some four or five years ago. But- to this date, although there are a few lots being built on now, to th