Manitoba Hansard — 3 April 1968 (Sitting 31, 28th Legislature, 2nd Session)

28-2-31

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, April 3, 1968 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees 749 HON. STEWART E. McLEAN, Q. C. (Provincial Secretary)(Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the First Report of the Standing Committee of Public Utilities and Natural Resources. MR .

CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources beg leave to present the following as their First Report: · Your Committee met on Tuesday, March 26, Tuesday, April 2, and Wednesday, April 3, 1968 and appointed Honourable Mr. McLean as Chairman. Your Committee agreed that, for the present session, the Quorum of this Committee shall consist of nine (9) members. Your Committee has examined The Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System for the Fiscal Year ending March 31, 1967, as published.

Your Committee received all information desired by any member of the Committee from the officials of The Manitoba Telephone System and their staffs with respect to matters per taining to the Report and the Business of The Manitoba Telephone System. The fullest op portunity was accorded to all members of the Committee to seek any information desired. Mrs. Prefontaine, on behalf of the Committee for the residents of Headingley, sub mitted a brief requesting that a group of 170 families be put on the Winnipeg Exchange of the Manitoba Telephone System. Your Committee has considered Bills: (No. 22) -

An Act to amend The Manitoba Hydro Act (No. 38) -

An Act to amend The Manitoba Telephone Act And has agreed to report the same without amendment. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR . ·McLEAN: Mr. 8Peaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Ed ucation, that the Report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAK.ER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills HON. THELMA FORBES (Minister of Urban Development and Municipal Affairs) (Cyp ress) introduced Bill No. 49,

an Act to amend The Manitoba Housing and Renewal corpora tion Act. HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q. C. (Attorney-General)(Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, under the new rules, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governorbaving been informed of the subject mat- 1 ter of this bill, recommends it to the House. I MR . LYON then introduced Bill No. 34,

an Act to amend

an Act respecting Soldiers• Estates. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Minister of Agriculture and Conservation) ( Rockwood-lberville) introduced Bill No. 40,

an Act to amend The Dairy Act. MR . JAMES COWAN, Q. C. (Winnipeg Centre) introduced Bill No. 55,

an Act to amend. The Winnipeg Char ter, 1956, and to validate By-laws Nos. 19389, 19466 and 19494; and Bill No. 58,

an Act to amend The Pharmaceutical Act. MR . SAUL M. CHERNIACK, Q. C. (St. John'

s) introduced Bill No. 57,

an Act to amend The Child Welfare Act. MR . R. O. LISSAMAN (Brandon) introduced Bill No. 51,

an Act to amend The Brandon Charter and to amend

an Act respecting the City of Brandon and to Validate By-law No. 3930 of The City of Brandon. MR . NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone), in the absence of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, introduced Bill No. 59,

an Act to amend The St. Boniface Charter, 1953. MR . SPEAKER: Before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct the attention of the honourable members of the gallery where we have 21 students of Grade 9 standing, from the St, Norbert Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. McDonald. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable the Attorney-General. We also have with us today 38 students of Grade 9 standing, from the J.B. Mitchell School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Lysecki and Mr. Jamault. This

750 April 3, 1968 (MR. SPEAKER cont'd. ) school is located in the constituency of the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Co=erce. We also have with us 16 members of the Manitou Farm Business Group, who are under the direction of Mr. Wiebe. They hail from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Pembina. There are also 15 students of Grade 9 Mixed Standing, of Marymound School for Girls. These students are under the direction of Mrs. L. Russell. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks.

On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislative Assembly I welcome you all here today. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable the Provincial Treasurer. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Provincial Treasurer) (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, may I an nounce that I expect to bring down the budget next Monday at 8:00 o'clock. MR, RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of N. D. P. ) (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, we're glad to receive the announcement of our honourable friend and we trust it will be acceptable on this side of the House as well as on that. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr.

Speaker, before the Order are called, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. Is it true that the Honourable Minister cancelled the move of the Information Branch to its proposed new quarters ? HON. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Minister of Industry & Commerre): Yes, Mr. Speaker, but only temporarily. MR. JOHNSTON: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is the Minister giving con sideration to a cut-back in the Information Branch budget? MR. SPIVAK: No, Mr. Speaker. MRS, FORBES: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to answer a question that was directed to me by the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party, and I apologize for not answer ing yesterday when I was answering other questions. Your question directed to me concerned the rise in the NHA interest rate and our attitude towards that.

Now we are all concerned all over Manitoba at a rise in this rate, and I'm really concerned because it reflects very high interest rates not only to every individual but it's to every firm and e-rery government who acquire needed financing, and I'm also concerned because NHA rates seem to be sort of a mortgage rate indicator. Although the Federal Government, I know, Mr. '3peaker, will argue that the NHA rate only reflects the existing interest rates, I'm afraid that it has the effect of encouraging the whole cycle of mortgage interest rates to move just a step higher.

There would appear to us to be three choices open to the Federal Government. Pro bably one of these might be to free the interest rate, another might be to establish an NHA mortgage rate at less than the current market interest rates, and the third might be to est ablish subsidized interest rates. But all three of these would have to be considered in some depth, because if you free the interest rate the mortgage market would then have to find its own level and the interest rate would continue to rise so long as the demand for capital funds was high, and indeed so long as international interest rates are high.

Freeing the interest rate, however, would remove the danger we think that the Canadian rate would continue to rise, and we are giving thought to it and having discussions with the federal people in this area. Now, if you establish an NHA rate that would be less than the current market rate, all the funds for NHA mortgages would then have to be proviced through CMHC and we would have to recognize here, Mr.

Speaker, that those mortgages now provided through the approved lenders would simply disappear and they would go to attractive investments elsewhere, and so CMHC would have to provide all the housing mortgages for the country, and if they did, this year they may be called upon to provide some $3 billion worth of mortgages and this, of course, would have to be considered in the light of other government requirements. Now if you go to a subsidized interest rate, Mr.

Speaker, this system again presents many difficulties because you would have to consider many things such as the selection of income, the selection of homes, the family size, and the value of homes; many things would have to be considered and it has many pitfalls. We are looking at a plan that Sweden has, a subsidy program, and in here too we must recognize that this plan, although it's worthy of consideration, we wonder whether you're really subsidizing the home purchaser or are you

April 3, 1968 751 (MRS.

FORBES cont'd.) ..... subsidizing the money lender, so it does take a great deal of consideration. , But I would like to ten the House that at present we are having consultations with the federal people, and at present I have one of my senior officials, who is in Toronto, attending the Building Standards Conference which I think has quite a bearing on NHA loans, and next week he, along with the Chairman of our Housing Corporation and our Director of Planning, will be attending the Housing Conference, and I want to tell you that Manitoba will be present ing a very determined pitch to the Federal G<lvernment that we would like them to recognize the regional differences and not gear everything to the economy and the resources and the demands that are made by the Province of Ontario, And I can assure the members of the House that discussions will continue with the federal people in an attempt to provide some solution.

MR, PAUJ.,LEY: Mr. Speaker, may I thank the Honourable the Minister for her detail ed explanation. I just have one or two supplementary questions. First of all: Have you made any direct representation to Ottawa as to Manitoba•s choice of one or more of the.three pro posals that you have suggested? Secondly, I wonder if -- my honourable friend mentioned, I believe, some of her staff that are presenting or will be presenting a brief in relation to this; I wonder if copies of that brief may be available as to the representations.

And the Minister indicated, it seeined to me, that this is a matter that's being given ever more consideration and I would like to know if the Minister can indicate when we might be able to obtain from the government a more detailed statement as to the result of their deliberations. MRS, FORBES: Well, in answer to your first question, we have advocated, I should say, the freeing of the interest rate.

In the answer to your other question, I will obtain copies of the brief and make them available for you; and to the third one, I will have to hold that until we have something further to present to the members of the House. MR, CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, in the light of the questions that were answered by the Honourable Minister, might I direct a question to the Minister of Industry and Commerce as to what is the current range of interest rates being charged by the Manitoba Development Fund, and is consideration being given to any of the three proposals that are being considered by the Minister of Municipal Affairs, including the api:arent reco=endation that the freeing of the interest rates would be the solution? I.realize that he may not have the answer at hand, but on the other hand he may. MR, SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice.

MR, CHERNIACK: Well then may I, Mr. Speaker, as� a question of the Provincial .Treasurer as to what is the situation in regard to the Manitoba bonds that are still out at, I think, five percent, whether there is any substantial application for redemption of same before the due date at this time, in view of the interest rate problem. MR, EVANS: Mr. Speaker, there has been no sharp upswing in the regular redemp tions of the Savings Bonds - I think my honourable friend's referring to the Manitoba Savings Bonds which have,been issued at various rates, not all at five percent.

There has been no undue increase in redemptions. They have been going on month by month at a fairly steady rate and I'm not aware of any special movement at the present time, MR, CHERI}TIACK: May I ask, Mr. Speaker: th ese are the bonds that are redeemable at par at any time? MR, EVANS: Yes, MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you. MR. JACOB M, FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. Have there been any recent developments, or are there any changes· re the Horse Racing Commission, or are they still at deadlock with the other parties ? MR, El\'NS:: No, Mr.

Speaker, there has been no change in that situation on the part of the government. , MR, BEN HANUSCHAK (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, in relation to the reply given by the Honourable Minist�r of Municipal Affairs, I wish to present this question dealing with the matter of easing the interest burden on the people of Manitoba: Does the Manitoba G<Jvern ment support the position taken by the Canadian Federation of Mayors in the resolution that it passed, calling upon the Federal G<lvernment for some measure of relief income-tax wise for interest on mortgages and real property tax?

752 April 3, 1968 MRS, FORBES: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take his question as notice, MR, LEONARD A. BARKMAN (Carillon): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a quest ion to the Minister of Agriculture concerning a problem of poultry products. Is it true the Department of Agriculture is discouraging the reporting of egg prices in daily papers just about a month ago? MR, ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I'm not just sure as to the area of jurisdiction that my de partment may have in what the press or papers choose to report or not to report.

I would have to take the honourable member's question as further notice and check in to see just what activity is being done by members of my department in this regard. MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Education. Are there any difficulties connected with integrating Sacred Heart Parochial School in the public school system? HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education) (Gimli): Well, not that I'm aware of, Mr. Speaker.

Usually the school board enters into negotiations under shared services with a private school and then send a proposed -- I have to sign the agreement. In this case I have nothing before me at the moment. MR. DOERN: A supplementary question. Is this a shared services agreement that is being proposed or is this a complete integration in the system? MR, JOHNSON: I have no precise information at the moment, Mr. Speaker. MR, SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable the Attorney-General.

MR, LYON: Perhaps, with leave, I could make a short statement about business of the House this afternoon for the honourable members' information. It would be our proposal, subject to agreement which I understand will be forthcoming, for the Provincial Secretary to proceed, by leave, with the committee and third reading stages of the two bills that were reported out of Public Utilities Co=ittee this morning, and subsequently Hi s Honour would be asked to give the Royal Assent to those bills.

We would then move into the Committee of Supply - and I would just point out that we have now spent 15 hours on the dot in that Com mittee -with some hope or anticipation that we might possibly finish the current department that is before the Co=ittee.

If we were successful in that venture, I can assure honour able members that it would not be the proposal of the government to call a new department today, but rather we would rise out of the Co=ittee of Supply and come back to second read ings with the ultimate goal in mind of adjourning at 5:00 o'clock tonight to accommodate � important segment of the House who have an important piece of business to transact. I thought that information might be -- (Interjections) -- I hope that information will be of some help to the members. MR, FROESE: Mr.

Speaker, I have no objection of the procedure but I think the Attor ney-General would be getting off too easy if we let him have his estimates passed today. MR, JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Urban and Municipal Affairs. The other day, my colleague the Member for Assiniboia directed a question to the Minister with respect to a business applying for a building permit, and the question was, and I repeat it: Has Metro the power to withhold a building permit providing the zoning regulations are met by the person applying? MRS. FORBES: Mr.

Speaker, I have not the answer today. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, this is rather important to a certain person· in Winni peg and I would ask the Honourable Minister to please get the information as soon as possible. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order; I'm afraid that what my honourable friend is asking for is a legal question, which is really not related to the jurisdiction of this House. He might better direct his question to the solicitor for Metropolitan Winnipeg Corp oration. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, a supplemental question.

Is it not true that Metro is set up by this jurisdiction, the Legislature, and has not this Legislature the right to direct Metro if they are breaking the law? MR, LYON: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order, my only point was that it seemed to me that my honourable friend's question was asking for a legal opinion, which is not properly given on Orders of the Day, and it's a legal opinion over which the government would not have direct knowledge. MR, JOHNSTON: Mr, Speaker, I believe the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs took the question as notice and I look forward to the answer.

April 3, 1968 753 ! MR, FROESE: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs gave three alternativJs before as to the source of funds that could be provided for National Hous ing mortgages. My question would be: have they also considered the Bank of Canada, which has the machinery whereby funds could be made available? MRS, FORBES: Mr. Speaker, in answer, they have considered many things; we just suggested three choices that might be available to the Federal Government. MR. SPEAKER: I believe it's in order now to call the Provincial Secretary. MR.

M!LE.AN: I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Education, that by leave Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consid�r and report on the following bills: Bill No. 22,

an Act to amend The Man itoba Hydro Act; ! Bill No. 38,

an Act to amend The Manitoba Telephone Act. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into Committee of the Whole House with the Honourable Member for Arthur in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee proceed. Bill No. 22,

Section 1 -- passed. 31,

Section 131--passed. The Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, this particular

section here gives the Hydro the power to borrow $50 million on a short term basis. While I would not object to passing this bill, I think there should be one proviso with it in that the members of this House should, at a regular session, receive some indication as to what the program is and what the temporary borrowings would be used for, because this is a large amount, and if we approve this bill now they will have this authority to borrow many millions of .dollars without ever having an especially approved sanction from this House.

Therefore, I think we should have a program at a regular session indicating what they're contemplating so that we would have notice ahead of time as to what any moneys of this type would be used for.

MR, McLEAN: I could concur in what the honourable member has said and point out, of course, that t�at is the purpose of the annual appearance of Manitoba Hydro Board before the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources, first to give a report of what pro jects they are carrying out, projects contemplated, and a full report respecting their fin ancial position, which of course would involve full information to the members concerning any sums of money that were in effect borrowed and ov.ing under the provisions of this bill. MR. CHAIRMAN: (The remainder of Bill 22, and Bill 38, were read

section by

section and passed.) Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has passe4 Bills Nos. 38 and 22 without amendment and has asked me to report same. i IN SESSION MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Hon- ourable Member for Springfield, that the report of the Committee be re ceived. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. BILLS NOS. 22 and 38, by leave, were each read a third time and passed. MR, LYON: Mr.

Speaker, we're just going to endeavour to see if His Honour is avail able to consider the Royal Assent. DEPUTY SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. MR. SPEAKER: May it please Your Honour, the Legislative Assembly, at its present session, passed the following bills: No. 22 -

an Act to amend The l\Ianitoba Hydro Act. No. 38 -

an Act to amend The l\Ianitoba Telephone Act. MR. CLERK: In Her Majesty's name, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor doth assent to these bills. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney General, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Com mittee to consider of the Supply tq be granted to Her Majesty. MR, SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House re�olved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Arthur in the Chair.

754 April 3, 1968 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR . CHAffiMAN: Committee proceed. Department IV Attorney-General. l\IR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, there were a few questions that I was in the course of answering last night that perhaps I can proceed with now. The Member for Hamiota asked some questions about the Unsatisfied Judgment Fund - what assurance that a driver's insur ance has not lapsed mid-term on his registration ·without him being required to pay the fee.

This really comes under Public Utilities, but in cases where the driver has demonstrated irresponsibility he is required, of course, to file a certificate proving financial responsibility. This certificate requires his insurance company to notify the Motor Vehicle Branch ten days in advance of the cancellation of insurance coverage, otherwise there is no check.

He also asks that if the $25. 00 fee in lieu of insurance was not paid, was it impossible for the fund to be sued, and the answer to that very briefly is that the $25. 00 penalty charged by that department, Public Utilities, there is no relationship to the right of a citizen to sue the fund. This is merely a penalty charged to the individual motor vehicle owner and designed to en courage him to take out insurance, and if he doesn't take it out then he must pay the S25. 00, but it has no relationship to the right to go after the fund for legitimate claims against that fund in the event of an accident occurring.

He also asked about the fund, whether or not it has become depleted through excessive claims and what use was made of the fund. I think my honourable friend was a little bit high in his estimate of what the fund used to be. He mentioned the figure of S5 million. Actually, the highest that the fund has ever been in recent years was S607,591 as of July 31, 1967. As of the end of February of this year, the balance in the fund was $447, 451. 86. Until 1967 the size of the fund was limited by statute to a $500, OOO maximum.

The funds are held in trust and they are invested by the Provincial Treasurer; the interest earnings are credited to the Unsatisfied Judgment Fund. I hope that cleans up the questions that he had in that regard. The Honourable Member for Elmwood asked some questions on the Minister's salary item about the Liquor Control Commission. Are the Order Forms nee essary? One can fall on either side of this question but generally speaking they do serve this purpose, that the ·written order achieves much greater speed in serving the customer and it does have a tend ency to cut administrative costs.

The customer signing, while it's a nuisance to obvious adults, does serve as some deterrent to minors but, as he quite properly points out, there are other alternative means of achieving the same end. The Co=ission, as he knows, has designed some new forms and I am advised that they are looking at this matter because other provinces recently have been making changes and the Commission is quite prepared to con sider anything reasonable that ·will be of benefit to the public. Why are the pencils, to use his words, so cru=y?

There were some hard lead pencils ordered in there but these have been replaced, so I am sure my honourable friend v.ill be able to either use a ballpoint pen or use the new pencils that are available now in the Liquor Commission. Stand-up bars. They are not permitted by statute in Manitoba. Limits for capacity of licensed premises are set at the number of seats. There are some safety measures that are perhaps better controlled by the lack of stand-up bars, but this again is a question of chang ing social attitudes. The time may well come when consideration can be given to this again.

Saturday midnight closing -- MR . DOERN: How about the Concert Hall? l\IR. LYON: -- concert hall? This is for an occasional permit, though. It's not a lic ensed premises. Under occasional permits, weddings, whatever the occasion, you can go to the bar and receive your drinks. The stand-up requirement - I'm going only from memory, so I shouldn't be held to this - the stand-up requirement, I believe is statutory with respect to licensed premises. MR . CHERNIACK: You mean the Centennial Concert Hall was just temporary? MR .

LYON: The Centennial Concert Hall, according to my information, is operating on occasional permit. There are no restaurant facilities open as yet in the premises. Ul timately, when they open restaurant facilities, they may well apply then for the regular lic ensed premises. Saturday midnight closing. There may well be a case for this practice, We are cert ainly prepared to look at it. There doesn't seem to be any great pressure from public or licensees at the present time.

• I April 3, 1968 755 (MR. LYON cont'd.) He asked what was the general feed back on Bill No. 38? Hardly any feed back what soever on advertising or on the change in hours. Anything that I have heard has been, gener allv speaking, favourable. . 11.IR. DOERN: Could I ask the Minister a question there? On the midnight restriction, the Saturday midnight closing for cabarets and cocktail lounges, does the Lord's Day Act prohibit us from extending the hours or is this our ov;n prerogative? 11R, LYON: I don't believe it's the Lord's Day, I think it's our ovm Liquor Control Act because we have gone beyond that.

He mentioned the New Year's Eve problem that was accommodated to some extent by the Commission giving consideration to the extension of dining room licenses into cabaret areas and this was accommodated in that way beyond the hour, although this was on a Sunday night going into Monday. My honourable friend is talking about a Saturday:nfght going into Sunday. I'm really not clear on that point. The Honourable Member from Rhineland asked a question about the consolidation of statutes.

I believe I mentioned in my upening remarks that we will be asking the House to approve the formation of a Co=ittee of the House this year to approve of the new revised statutes. We'll start feeding them into this Co=ittee this summ er. Hopefully the Legis lature next year �ill be able to give approval to them and the printing will take place after that. The administration of justice. The Honourable Member from Rhineland asked about the John Howard-Elizabeth Fry Society grant. That is still contained in our Estimates.

If he \\ill look at Page 3 of the Corrections Report he \\ill see some evaluation of the work of that organization, We think that it performs a useful function and we are continuing our grant to them. We can deal with the Juvenile and Family Court items when we come to them, although there were two quick questions by my honourable friend from St. George. What v.ill the new Detention Home qost? I presume he is referring to the renovations. It's a guesstimate at this stage but they are estimating that the renovations to Vaughan Street \\ill cost in the area of 845, OOO. 00.

We are hopeful that those premises will be ready for occupation sometime this spring, spring of this year. -- (Interjection) -- Oh yes. The work is presently underway on the Fort Osborne site to make it ready to receive the Administrative Branch, and immed iately the Adminfstrative Branch move out then the renovations will start within a matter of weeks on Vaughan Street itself. . They are underway on Fort Osborne. He also asked a question about a detoxication center at Old Grace Hospital. There was some discussion at one stage of using the Grace Hospital for this purpose, but this will not likely be done.

This is not within our departmental responsibility; this is within the respons ibility of the Hospital Commission. We are proceeding, however, with further discussions of such a facility, not necessarily at that site, and hope to be in a better position to give hon ourable members a detailed plan of it, hopefully by next year at the latest. X ow I think that covers most of the points, Mr. Speaker, of which I have record at this time, and if the�e are any others perhaps we could raise them as we come to the individual items in the Estimates. MR , ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr.

Chairman, I have an item I'd like to discuss, and perhaps the Minister could indicate to me where -- if I should discuss it at this time or at the time when we get to it. It's a card that one of the local Finance Companies uses to send to tHeir clients, and I don't intend to mention this firm's name but I certainly think that they should be rapped over the knuckles, or worse, for the attitudes or for the things they are doing. They had a client who came to me, who lived in my constituency, and I'll read this to you. It's a printed card and it says: "Notice to appear.

You are to appear on" -- and then it gives such and such a date, and such and such a time --" sharp," implying that it's a court order al most. Now it isn't a court order. It's not signed by anybody but anyone who isn't familiar could easily misinterpret this card to believe that this is an order that he just had to abide by. And I reallythink that the Attorney-General should take steps, or maybe perhaps through an agent in his office, to say something to this firm, because I certainly think it's improper and that they shouldn't be allowed to send out this type of card.

Now, strictly speaking, I don't.think there's anything illegal, but as I say it certainly created an impression, I'll send the card over to him so he can see it. Naturally I wouldn't want the name. of the party who is on the card involved but I think that the company should certainly

756 April 3, 1968 (l\IB, GUTTORl\ISON cont'd.) ..... be rapped and told to stop this type of practice because it certainly is not proper. l\IB. LYON: I thank the honourable member for letting us have the card. We will give it to the Law Officers of the Crown - and we'll give it back to my honourable friend - and have them review it in the light of what he has said. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Chairman, two or three years ago - in fact it may be four years ago - we dealt ·with the Act that provided for relief from certain unconscionable trans actions, and I think there was provision in that Act for a person to make application for his money back if he did so "\\ithin 48 hours or 72 hours after he had signed a contract. There were several incidents in the Gladstone constituency where people came to me after they had signed a contract. I think all of them were in connection \\ith steel buildings.

The province seemed to be overrun with salesmen out selling steel buildings to farmers, not only in l\Ian itoba but in Saskatchewan and Alberta, in all of the prairie provinces. And three or four of them made application, within the required time, for their money back, and I wrote to my honourable friend's department and got a letter back on one or two occasions in which they suggested that there was some weakness in the present legislation that made it impossible for them to get their money back. So I was wondering if my honourable friend could enlighten the House on the legislation that we have.

In the one instance, the sale was made, or the contract signed for the sale of this steel building in the morning, the farmer came in to see me about 1:00 o'clock in the afternoon, so I immediately sent him up to the lawyer. In the interval, the three - or four-hour interval, the salesman had cashed the cheque and he never did get his deposit back. The deposit in that case was $100. 00; the deposit in another case was $1, 200. 00, and both of them lost their money.

Now, I understand in Saskatchewan that from out -- well I don't know whether it was from out of a particular fund but I have a report before me that they had -- here we are here. This refers to Saskatchewan: "Money returned to buyers from door to door sales. " And it says, "Door to door sales firms in Saskatchewan have had to refund over $43, OOO to buyers since the province's new Direct Sellers Act went into effect on July lst.

The complaints came from 69 purchasers and involved 19 different companies." And so it appears that in Saskatchewan their Act is working very efficiently, and it also appears that in Manitoba it is not working very efficiently. So I was wondering if my honourable friend could enlighten the House on that particular subject, Another matter that was touched on last night by my honourable colleague, the l\Iem ber for St.

Boniface, was this: He was saying, if I interpreted his remarks correctly, that the laws of the province seemed to be designed to encourage people to plead guilty rather than become involved in court cases, and I have found this to be true on many, many occ asions. And on l\Ionday of this week a J.

P. c a.me to see me, not from my constituency, and he said, "I understand that you haven't much respect for fellows in my category." And I said, ''I wouldn't say that." I said, "All I said in the House was, or all I asked on several occasions: what was the qualifications of a J.P. outside of having been a defeated Tory candidate or something like that." And I said, "I have yet to know what the qualifications are of a J.P.

We have some in the province, or did have, that were about 85 years old, and all they were doing was acting as cash registers." And I said, "I'm not saying this about you because I do believe that you're making a fair job.'' And incidentally this particular J. :? . has been a J.P. for 20 years, I guess. But he told me that he was underpaid in this day and age, that he had to get up in the middle of the night on several occasions because he was called by the RC1'1P, and I said, ''How much do they pay you for that kind of thing?" And he said, "A dollar." I think he said a dollar.

Well if this is a fact, he is underpaid, My guess is that he is the exception to the rule. My guess is he's an exceptionally good J.P. and a conscientious one that's really doing his job. He does not live in my constituency. - (Interjection) -- l\Iaybe in Dauphin. But he does not live in my constituency. But so many cases come before the J.P. s, and this fellow told me, he said, "I don't take money from anybody if they plead not guilty.

I can't handle their case at all." "Well," I said, "All you are then is a cash register really." You say if you want to plead guilty and he looks up the fine and it's S15. 00 and he puts it in the till. But I have also had several people come to me, particularly because I'm involved in the automobile insurance business to quite an extent, who have had charges laid against them under the Highway Traffic Act and The Criminal Code, and they have had their car licence

April 3, 1968 757 I (MR. SHOEMAKiER cont'd.) ..... suspended or their vehicle impounded, or both in some cases, and they 'say, "Now what can I do about it?" And. I will say, "Well, what did you do about it when they asked you if you wanted to plead 3fillty?11 And they said, "Oh well, they said it would be better for me if I pleaded guilty and so I pleaded guilty." 'Well," I said, ''Were you guilty?

Why should you plead guilty to something for which you may not be guilty?'' But then they will come to me and say, "Well, v.ill you appeal or make arrangements for me to appeal to the Appeal Board?" Well in m�y cases I have made arrangements for them to appeal, but it strikes me as being kind of odd to plead guilty today and then go to the Appeal Board and say, "Well listen. Sure I pleaded guilty yest�rday but today I've kind of changed my mind and I'm appealing to you to give me back my licence.'' Well I understand that about 80 or 85 percent of the appeals are granted.

I don't know whether I'm correct in that regard but !think somewhere in that neighbourhood. -- (Interjection) -- It's Public Utilities. But the principle seems to be wrong somehow and I wonder if my honourable friend could make some comment about that. I was talkfug on the province, the province is being overrun by these door.to door sales men, and I do recall that the Farmers Union told us, if not this year last year, that they estimated that the farmers in this province had lost about three-quarters of a million dollars in one year by door to door salesmen of all one kind or another.

The Department of Agric ulture, my honourable friend the Minister over there - I see he is in his seat as usual - but he sent out a release - or if it wasn't he, yes it was he I guess - on the 25th of September last year, warning: Watch your contracts. My honourable friend read this, I suppose: "For immediate release. Watch your contracts. A number of Manitoba fa rmers have encounter ed contract difficulties this summer when arranging for construction of new farm building.

" They have, indeed - not only this sumner but for some summers in the past; and it warns the farmers to beware of these fly-by-night characters. And this proves the point that I have been making. Not only are we fellows making statements of this kind but here is my honour able friend the Minister of Agriculture really concerned over it. So I hope that this Uncon scionable Transactions Act, if it did have some flaws in it, we can get rid of the flaws and put some teeth to replace the flaws. I think that is what should be done.

Two or three years ago in this House we passed legal aid legislation, and I don't know whether it went ib.to effect or whether it is in this proposed draft that is before the Committee now. But I have here somewhere before me this booklet that was put out, a real good one too, on laws affecting women, and it points out the various legislation that has been passed recently in respect to women. It has been said, Mr. Chairman, that if marriage licences cost $10, OOO and divorces cost $3. 00 there'd be a lot less divorces, and my guess is that there would be.

But in this province and in most provinces the reverse is true. But this legislation did promise legal aid for divorces. I wonder if my honourable friend could tell us to what extent that this legislation is presently in effect, or is it in the proposed legis lation? Mr.

Chairman, I, like the Honourable Member for Burrows, would like to express some concern over the fact that we just got this report, I think, when my honourable friend made his first co=ent on the department, and it's very difficult to read all of the things that come before us, particularly if they don't get to our desk until the Minister gets up on his feet.

But the very opening paragraph, the very opening paragraph in the Report on Cor rections in Manitoba says, ''Total admissions in all provincial adult institutions were some what higher, but ithe dally average population was slightly lower, indicating shorter sentences." And when you go through the report - and if I can interpret it co rrectly, that opening parag raph is an understatement if ever there was one - on - let's see, the pages are not numbered in this book so it's difficult to tell my honourable friend on which page to find anything. There isn't a number on any of the pages.

But it's on Page 2 of the blue section, on Page 2 of the blue section: "The most frequent delinquencies referred are as follows:" And under

Summary of Tables, (2) 4.: Sexual I=orality and other vice, and an asterisk after it. But it jumped from 66 in 1966 to 252 in 1967, or an increase of something like 400 percent. Now the ast erisk says: "includes Glue Sniffing." Well, is it a fact then, that as a result of glue sniffing that this particular charge is up 400 percent? And then you can go right through the book. On. about the fourth or fifth page thereafter, Table 6, and that gives a whole series of the "Nature of delinquency by disposition" and the

758 April 3, 1968 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd.) ..... total, the total cases 3,495 in 1966, 4, 233 in 1967, up - what, 30 percent? On the next page, Table 7, "Nature of delinquency by age and sex," from 2, 590 in 1966 to 3, 335 in 1967, up - what? 35 percent? On the next page, Table 8, "High way Traffic Act and Bylaw referrals by age and sex and by disposition." Not so bad, but up from 1, 522 to 1, 750. And all the way through the whole report.

On Table 18, "Children referred by delinquency, age and sex, Manitoba Juvenile Courts," from 2, 903, in 1966 to 3, 588 in 1967, an increase of 20 - 25 percent, Table 19, "Children referred by delinquency, Manitoba Juvenile Courts (Winnipeg Juvenile Court Excluded)" from 3, 236 in 1966 to 4, 066 in 1967, an increase of 30 percent, or nearly. And all the way through the whole report, a substantial increase; and I wonder if my honourable friend has an explanation for this because our population has not been grow ing to that same extent at all. And so, Mr.

Chairman, perhaps my honourable friend will comment on that before we get past the Minister's salary. I do notice incidentally, Mr. Chairman, in the opening report on Page 3 of the yellow

section there's a report on the John Howard and Elizabeth Fry Societies, and I'm not fam iliar with that but I do know that Steve Juba got into a bit of a row v.ith this society and re fused to -- did he not refuse to give them any financial support this year? Or they shouldn't get it -- he said they shouldn't get it. I don't know whether he did condescend and finally give them some or not, Maybe my honourable friend could enlighten us on that.

Then the Salvation Army -- there's a very small report there, and gee whiz, this is something that deserves more commendation than is given to it in the report, One day last week - in fact I think it was a week ago today - I got an invitation from Major Miller of the Harbour Light Centre to go over and have lunch at that wonderful institution and I took two of my colleagues along ·with me. It was the first time I ever visited the place in my life and I would recommend that every member of this House go over and have a look at the work that they are doing over there.

I was simply amazed at what they are able to do with a small budget. Well, it's only made possible � virtue of the fact that nearly everybody is working for nothing, and I think the Major told me that the highest paid man there got S265. 00 a month -- or $65. 00 a week - $65. 00 a week, the highest paid one, and there were nine, I think, on staff that looked after the whole centre.

I made the statement, or one of. the colleagues did, that they bet that if the government had to operate this centre it would cost them a half a million dollars, and they're able to do it for -- well, the report says SllO, OOO, but then they do make a note here that much of that is gratis. So there is certainly a centre and a project that deserves our wholehearted support and we should encourage the expansion of this type of facility. MR, JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to just briefly take a moment of the Co=ittee's time.

I would ask the Minister - I've written him a letter before and I've talked on the phone to one of his Executive Assistants - I would ask the Minister to visit the Boys' Home at Portage la Prairie.

I don't know whether or not he's been there recently or not, and I hesitate at this time to publicly discuss the problems that I've been informed about by friends of the Home, former employees of the Home and others like that, but there is presently a very poor feeling, morale-wise, amongst both the boys who are in there, amongst the members of the staff, and I would hope sincerely that the Minister will some time in the near future pay a visit out there and talk to members of the staff.

There seems to be no co=unication between the Minister's office and some of these institutions such as the Boys' Home at Portage la Prairie, In the past year there has been a change in the superintendent, for Mr. Bruce Jones has retired and Mr. Ray Atkinson is now the superintendent out there, So without me saying any more, Mr. Chairman, I would ask that the Minister go out and visit that Home and talk to members of the staff, MR, GUTTORMSON: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know whether this item should be discuss ed in the Attorney-General's estimates or not and he can advise me, but it applies to the general release of all demands with respect -- it's a paper which the government requests people to sign when they're accepting payment for damages from the government.

Now, I'll give you an example, This applies to the Department of Agriculture and they were making some payments for damages and they had -- it was a document that the farmer in question had to sign before he could receive the cheque, and I'd like to raise the matter of this doc ument somewhere in the estimates. Now is this a matter that should be raised in -- would

! I April 3, 1968 (MR, GUTTORMsON cont'd.) this be drafted by the Attorney-General's Department? It's certainly drafted by lawyers and I think it should be raised somewhere. Now, would 759 this be a matter that would be discussed in your estimates or the Department of Agriculture? MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, very probably my honourable friend is quite correct in saying it would be drawn by our department for the utilization of other departments of govern ment.

If he has any particular points, perhaps he could raise them under the item of Admin istration of Jus�ice where we deal with the civil side and I'd be glad to take it up with him at that time, While I'm on my feet, I'll be glad to deal with the questions raised by the Honourable Member from Gladstone, which he has just spoken of, under the various items under which I have a note of them appearing, and I thank the Honourable Member for Portage who is not - well, I see him !Coming back into the House - for his comments.

We're aware of the situation that arises I tbihk because of the change of supervision at the top, and I thank him for his I comments and can assure him we'll be giving it attention.

MR, CHAIRMAN: (Resolutions 19 and 20 were passed.) MR, HANUSC HUK : There are two points that I'd like to draw to the attention of the Honourable Minister, The first one deals with bequests to charitable institutions and the role that the Surrogate Court plays in this matter, I notice, Mr, Chairman, there is a pro cedure laid down in Ontario under The Charities Accounting Act which makes it mandatory for an officer in Ontario known as the Public Trustee - now here we have no comparable officer, I do not believe - but it is mandatory to inform the Public Trustee of the bequests to charities and then, in turn, the Public Trustee notifies the charity that it may be entitled to some benefit from that particular estate.

Now I have not heard of any charity in Manitoba being short-changed by the executors, being overlooked by the executors of an estate, but it would seem tb me, Mr. Chairman, that this would be a valuable precaution to take to prevent the occU.rrence of such a situation, . Now the Honourable Mini ster may be aware of this piece of legislation in existence in Ontario, and if he is, and in view of the fact that we do not have similar legislation in Man itoba, I would appreciate hearing his comment on that matter. The other matter -- or perhaps I will defer my co=ents on the other matter.

It's going to deal with magistrates and magistrates courts and I suppose I could deal with that under Resolution 23, so on this point this is the only comment I wish to make. MR, LYON: Mr, Chairman, I'm vaguely aware of the legislation in Ontario, I'm not aware of any abuses, that is directly, as I stand on my feet, I could enquire from the depart ment as to whether or not they have knowledge of any complaints that would justify the intro duction of any such legislation. I understand that there have been no complaints but we could keep the suggestion in mind, I thank him for raising it.

MR, SIDNEY GREEN (Inkster): Mr. Chairman, just on the last point. I would like the Honourable the Attorney-General to consider that what could happen is that there would be no complaints because the charity would not know, I think the point that my honourable friend is making is that an individual could leave a bequest to a charity and the executor would not pay the bequest, and certainly he's not going to give you a specific case and I'm not going to give yo)i a specific case. I would hope that there were no cases, but I couldn't be sure.

Now, th'e executor could then possibly never pass accounts, as my honourable friend would know that this could quite likely happen, and it never occurred to me that. what is being done in Ontario is being done. All they do is have the Surrogate Court, or somebody who has access to those records, write a letter to the charity indicating that there was a bequest in this Will that they should know about. It's not likely you would have a complaint from a charity that didn't get a bequest because it's likely that that particular charity would not even know of the bequest.

As a matt'er of fact, it appears to me - and I don't know whether they do this in Ont ario - that it would be a good idea to send every beneficiary a letter that there is a bequest in a particular Will. -- (Interjection) -- Yes, if it's convenient - and I don't think that there should be anything onerous or any proof of service required, but as a matter of practice I think the propo�al has a great deal of merit,

760 April 3, 196€ MR . CHAffiMAN: (Reso lution 21 was passed. ) Res olution 22 - (a)- -passed; (b) --passed; Reso lution 22--passed. MR . DOUGLAS CAMPBELL (La kes ide) : ... item (

c) there. MR. CHAffiMAN: Oh, I beg your pardon, I'm in error. (c )-- MR. CAMPBE LL: With regard to the revision, I lis tened with interest to the report that the Honourable the Minister gave regarding the computerizing of the statutes. When does he expect the revision to be complete to the extent that we will have a set of the Revised Statutes ? Maybe he's already mentioned this, but I missed it if he did. MR . LYON: I mentioned it ju st briefly, Mr. Chairman, and I'm glad to repeat it. The work of the revision has been proceeding under the direction of the former Legislative Counsel, Mr.

Rutherford, and he has advised us that he has practically finished all of the statutes now. At this Sessi on we will be establishing the committee that is called for under the statute to review the work of the revisionists and, hopefully, that committee will be reporting for work after prorogation, during recess this year, and will report back to the next sessi on of the Legisla ture approval or amendment or whateve� of the Revised Statutes and the printing can then take place foll owing the approval given by the Sessi on of 196 9 . So we 're now within sight of it.

It' s been a long, harrowing road, but my honourable friend from Lakeside, who's been through a numb er of these, v.ill appreciate the amount of work that goes in by the draftsmen, and the new format of lo osele af statutes and the pilot pro je ct on computerization are not holding things up at all; they are ju st new ideas that are being implemented.

We' re hopeful that the computerization will prove to be feasibl e on a total basis because the possibilities of that for information retrieval for members of the House, for members of the public, municipal officers, lawyers, is almost beyond comprehension, the speed '.\ith which this can be done. All of this is melding together in a very happy way for us because our statutes are maturing to the point where we can deal v.ith them.

The computerization idea is possible now with the government computer and the one at the university, v.ith the purchase of a bit of additional equipment, so we're looking forward to the ac tual printed statutes coming out sometime subseq uent to the next ses sion of the Legisl ature, sometime in '6 9 or '7 0. MR. CAMPBE LL: Well, is it likely, Mr. Chairman, that this edition of the Revised Statutes "ill carry the date 196 9 ? MR. LYON: Yes, depending on how well we do our work this summer. MR . CHAffiMAN: (Balance of Resolution 22 was passed. ) Resolution 23 - (a) (1 )- MR.

LYON: There were a couple of items mentioned here, Mr. Chairman. The Mem- ber for Gladstone enquired about the steel building complaints . We had a number of complaints in the department, but above and beyond that the RCM P on their o'.\n initiative investi gated altogether some 265 cases . Of those, about GO warranted further review by the staff, and of these there were approximately a dozen where at the very outside a prosecution could have been considered. The staff are giving cons ideration to some of these at the present time.

The majo rity of these, as I mentioned, did not arise from complaints but as a result of police in ves tigation and enquiries on their own because of associa ted work that they were doing with other police forces. I am not able to report on the success or otherwise of any prosecutions. The bulk of them did not fall v.ithin the category of being offences that could be taken to court for criminal prosecution. Now, he also asked about le gal aid and I made a brief comment on it last evening. The item for additional le gal aid appears in this estimate of Administ ration of Justice.

We're anticipating, pursuant to the recommendation of the Statutory Orders Committee, bringing a brief amending sec tion before the House this sessi on which '.\ill authorize the department to enter into an agreement with the Law Socie ty with respect to le gal aid for indigent persons - I underline the word indigent - for indictable criminal offences - nothing on the civil side at the present time - and for this we have voted the amount, or are asking you to vote the amount of $40, OOO in this item. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I want to thank my honourable friend for the ans wers he has given, but in respect to the 265 complaints that he received -- (Interjection) - Pardon? MR. LYON: ... 265 cases. We received a much smaller number of complain ts. MR,-SHOEl\TAKEF : Well, under the existing law, what can a farmer, or anyone el se do, as far as that's concerned, if he wants to cance l a contract within the cooling- off period?

April 3, 1968 (MR. SHOEMAiq:R cont' d. ) What steps does he take ? 76 1 MR . LYON: If he was Vlithin time, that is after The Unconsci onable Transactions Relief Act came into force and effect, then he can utilize that Ac t. I'm not pers onally familiar with the correspo ndence that my honourable friend speaks of that he had Vlith the department, but I know one or two cases that were brought to my attention where the contracts were signed prior to the coming into force of The Unco nscionable Transactions Act and therefore were not within the ambit of that legislation.

That Act is administered by the Pro vincial Sec retary, not by this department, although we do provide legal advice to the Prov incial Se cretary for that pur pose. Our main involvement was V.'ith respect to potential charges under the Criminal Code rather than the ljncons cionable Transactions Relief Act. MR. GUT'!iORMSON: Mr. Chairman, what item are we on at this moment. MR. CHAIB IVIAN: We are on Resolution 23, (a) (1 ). MR .

SHOEMAKER: On another point, and I don't know what should be done or what can be done, but every year you find people out selling contracts of some kind or other that are a little on the shady side to say the least, and the most rece nt one that was brought to my atten tion was a character that is out selling a contract that is similar in nature - we ll, to a small degree - as one issued by the Manitoba Motor League. In consideration of something like $35 a year they simply guarantee, or they agree to pay certain legal fees if you are involved in an accident -- you know and all this kind of stuff.

So I went upstairs to the -- (Inte rjec tion) - No, the officer up here that has to do '\\ ith the Companies Act, to check up, and they said, "Well this outfit" - and I think there are only two in it, named in it - "they have yet to file their first report. '' They have never filed a report. So I wrote to the company; I've got no reply. I didn't get my letter back so my guess is they got their letter. I don't know to what extent they are carrying on business but I know they were working in the western part of the province.

And they are always working on people who -- older people who will part with $35 to get rid of the characters. Now what do you do '\\ ith people like this ? Their contract is worth less; it's really of no value at all. They are licensed by the government to carry on a business. I don't know what can be done, but it seems to me that they are taking advantage of a lot of people who are short of money in the first place. MR. CHAIBMAN: (! )--passed; (2)-- MR . LYON: Just quickly on that one point.

If there is evidence of any fraud, that is if they can't deliver as they say they will, then this should be rep orted to the police immediately, who should investigate it and then report it to the Crown Attorney for his decision as to whether or not criminal charges lie. OtherVli se, if it' s a civil claim, that is if they pay money for a service that is not re ceived and there is no fraud involved in it, criminal fraud, then they should resort to ;their own lawyer to determine whether or not they have a good action to re cover the moneyj that they may have paid to this company. MR. CAMPBELL : Mr.

Chairman, under

(2) I have two matters that I would like to raise. I can make them briefly because both of them happen to be ones that I mentioned at the last session.

The first one has to deal '\\ ith coroners, and I reco unted last year a case that to me was a very trying one, where a coroner had held up the funeral of a young girl who was killed in an automobile accident under very sad circumstances, and the funeral was held up by action of the coroner for five days, what seemed to me to be an unneces sary delay and which added greatly to the suffering of the parents and the family and the inconvenience of school children who were planning to attend the funeral and all such. Now the Hono urable the Attorney- Gener al promised me that he would look into it.

I raise it again only to again point up the fact that it seems to me that there should be an under standing that the coroners in these cases should do eve rything consistent Vlith the proper dis charge of their duties to see that the '\\ ishes of the family of the deceased are met with insofar. as pos sible. If the Honourable the Attorney- General would tell us what has happened in that particular case, if anything, I'd be interested in hearing it. But the other one, the other side of that case, I was unable to discuss a year ago for the simple reason that the case was before the courts.

Now it has been completed before the courts and I am in a pos ition to discuss it. I do not intend to waste much time over it but I would like to give some of the background of it once again. This was a car accident where a fatality occurred. It occurred in November of 1966; the court case did not take place, or the final disposition of it, until October of 19 67. The

76: April 3, 1968 (MR. CAMPBELL cont' d.) . . . . . one who was established, after a considerable amount of difficulty and conflicting evidence in front of the court, the one who was established as the driver v.'as driving a car that had no insurance. He himself was under suspension. These are the facts as they are given to me. He was under suspension. He had a driving record that was very bad, incl uding convictions for impairment, for leaving the scene of an accident, and other convictions in addition to those in this case.

I know that it's not the province perhaps of the members of the House here to be critical of the courts, but in this case, where this boy who was 20 years of age when the accident occurred - he would be 22 now I suppose, in that neigh borhood - tried to pretend that he wasn't the driver of the car and yet he was found by the courts to be the driver, had been certainly a contributing factor to the accident. A girl had died under tragic circumstances and this boy was acquitted by the court on the charge of caus ing death by criminal negligence.

Now I would recognize that that is a \"ery stern charge, causing death by cr iminal negli gence, but knowing the facts of the case to the extent that I do, it would seem to me that it was a just charge, but he was acquitted on that charge and found guilty of dangerous driYing. Well now, dangerous driving simply does not seem to me to be a severe enough charge for that case, but the court decided that that was the basis on which he was found guilty. He was sentenced to six mo:iths in jail last October. My guess is -- do six months people get shortened time for good condu ct ?

My guess is - my guess is that he is likely out; my guess is that he is likely out of jail now. I don't know; I am only guessing. My guess is that he's likely driving again, and although he was - whatever the proper term is - banned from the road for 18 months, my guess is that he is drh'ing. I think there should be some follow-u::> some place by either the Attorney-Gen eral's Department or the Public Utilities Department to have some kind of a watch on people \\ith a record such as this.

First and foremost, I think that the court charge was r10t as severe as it should have been; the sentence was not as heavy as it should have been. I would be interested to find out if he is already out of jail, and then I think if he is, that somebody should be watching to see, making a definite check on that particular individual to see if he is driving. Now some people will say that that's a type of perse cution, but I think that a person of that kind needs - if that's perse cution - needs persec ution. I think the public needs protection, and l reiterate what I have said in the House many times before.

I get concerned over the fact that we seem to pay so much attention frequently to talking about the rehabilitation of the people who perpetrate crimes and the fact that we should have understanding and services for them, protect them, that we are inclined to forget the \"ictims of those crimes and the rights of society itself. So I want to ask my honourabl e friend a question. Will he find out for me whether that particular boy is out of jail ? And then I would like to ask the Honourable the Minister of Public Utilities to find out, if he can, whether he is driving again.

He was :iot supposed to be on the road for 18 mo:iths. My guess is he'll be driving as soon as he's out, and I think there ought to be an attempt made to find out and to see that if, as and when he is caught, as he will be, but maybe after another fatality, then that he should - I'm inclined to think he should have al ready - the next time he should lose his licence for life and probably some other measures as well. Mr. Chairman, there is a lot more that I could say on this but there is no need of taking the time of the Committee to deal with it any further.

I would like to know what can be ascer tained about this particular case. l\ffi. LYON: If my honourable friend would be good enough to g-ive me the names, if he could either tell me or put them on a piece of paper, of the two peo ple, first the coroner's in quest and seco nd the accused, I'll be glad to get the information for him. l\ffi. CAMP BELL: Well I think in a case of this kind they should all be put right on the public record. The name of the coroner is Dr. Denton Bo'.)th; the name o.'.' the boy in question is Hugh Woods.

The other details of the case can easily be established because he was sen tenced some time in the neighborhood of the middle of October, 19 67. ::\IR. GRE EN: l\Ir. Chairman, I want to follow up somewhat in more detail the remarks that were made by the Honou rable the Member for Lakeside with regard to the office of the coroner. I just wonder from the Honourable the Attorney-Gener al as to whether anything is being done to investigate the whole question of coroner s' inquests and the function that these have in the administration of justice. I see the Minister is nodding his head, which indicates

April 3, 1968 763 (l\ffi. GREEN co:lt'd. ) . . . . . that the matter is being looked into and I therefore won't go into it at great length', but I do think that sometimes inertia and tradition carry on proceed ings which ha\·e long since lost any functional value. In this regard, Mr. Chairman, I may say that I have attended many coroners' inque sts and I am completely bewildered as to what is actually happening and as to what rules guide this procee ding which to me is dist inct from any other procee ding I have evei: attended .

I'm not certainly alone in this and I know that there are many lawyers and Cro vm Prose cutors who would agree with me, Mr. Chairman, because it was said much better than I have just said it. I think that with the indulgence of the Com mittee I would like to read something that A. P. Herber t said in "Unc ommon Law" on this office because I think, although it 's exaggerated and A, P. Herbert made a lot of points by humor, I think that the point that he makes is an excellent one.

I am readfug from "Unc ommon Law", an edition that was published in 19 35 so it 's not something new that I'm talking about, it' s something that has been discussed for a very very long time; At page 261 of that volume, the court is commenting on the office of the coroner, and His Lordship says: "Lord Mildew remarks in a famous case, the name of which I've forgot, it is the duty of coroners to investigate the death of the deceased and not, as some of them seem to think, the lives of the living. Even an inquest can be too inqui sitive. It is a pity that that dictum has never been brought to the attention of Dr.

Busy, the Bathburn coroner. The office of coroner is ancient, odd, anomalous and perhaps unneces sary. " And He rbert gives a foot note: "He is not found necessary, for example, in Sco tland. " And I don't know the Sc ottish practice. He goes on to say, ''T he only one man judicial tribunal whose pronouncements are never ·i n practice subje cted to a se cond opinion is the coroner. The high court has power both at common law and by statute to quash a coroner 's inquisition and order a new one, but these powers are rarely used and do not cover the whole mis chief.

There are three dangers: (1 ) that by reason o � the coron er's queer proceedings a person may be wr ongly accused of crime; ( 2) that a person properly accused and tried may be unjustly hampered and endangered by a cloud of inque st'-generated prejudice; and ( 3) that without being tried, wholly innocent persons, Viitnesses or relatives may be blackened \\ith the corone r's mark ." Now I' m not sugges ting that that has happened but I certainly suggest that it can.

And then the ficti\)nal judge that Herbert has talking gives an example - and this will just take a few minutes and I think the members may find it very interesting - of what he des cribes as being a typical coronerr s inquest. The Co r(mer: What time was it when you say you found the body of your father ? George T ... , aged 22: As I approached the house I heard the clock strike two. Co roner: Why were you returning home at 2:00 o'c lock in the morning ? Witnes s: What has that got to do \\ith it ? Coroner (sternly): Answer the question, sir. It is my duty to elicit the truth.

Witness: About my father's death, yes sir, but not about my evening out. Coroner: : So you had an evening out ? Were you sober ? Witness: 1Y es, I'd been to supper, dancing . You can't dance drunk. Corone r: ' You had been out to supper. With a woman? Witnes s: ' Of course. Do you suppose I should dance with a leopard ? Corone r: , No impertinence please. What is the woman' s name ? Witness: Mind your own busin es s. Coroner: At this moment, sir, it is my duty to mind yours, and I must ask you for the woma n's name. for. ) Witness: Pratt. Coroner: Miss or Mrs. ? Witness: Mrs. (The coroner here ordered Mrs.

Pratt to be sent for .. He ordered Mrs. Pratt to be se nt Coroner: So you were having an evening out \\ith a married woman. Was her husband aware ::if this ? Witness: Really, sir, what has all this got to do \\i th ... Coroner: Answer the question. Witness: Probably not.

764 April 3, 1968 Co roner: Probably not. Do you mean that you and this woman are decei ving the husband ? Witness : No, I don't. I mean they don't live together anymore. Coroner: Divo rced? Witness: Practically. Coroner: Practically divorced. The::i the husband has obtained a decree nisi ? Witnes s: No, you fool. She has. Coroner: Oh, so you returned home at 2:0 0 A. M. after dancing with a succes sful peti- tioner for divorce whose decree has not been made absolu te ? (T he coroner here ordered his office to communicate with the King's Prodor.) Coroner: Is this the Mrs.

Pratt who went bankrupt not lo ng ago? -- and so on. There was in this case no question of murder or manslaughter. The simple question was: did the deceased fall out of the window by ac cident or on purpose ? Now, Mr. Chairman, Herbert is a great humorist and he makes a point and he makes it well, and I' m not suggest ing that our coroners are doing this typ e of thing, but on the other hand, I ask what are they doing. Is their role really functi onal ? Are they foll owing anx type of procedures, because I know that whe::i I go to a coroner's inquest I get a

summary of what is going to be said at that inquest and if the witness happens to stray from what is being said the coroner is very much surprised and tries to get him back on the right track. The ::oroner' s verdict means very little, and I, as defence couns el, have often had the dilemma as to whether I have my clie nts appear before the coroner and make statements or whether I don't, and just what will the attitude be if he does n't testify, what will the attitude be if he does testify.

If we are examining as to how a person met their death, are we stuck with this archaic procedure, which is by the way a costly one. Now there must have been a good rationale for it at one time. Does that rationale still exist or is there a better way, and is the Honourable the Attorney Ge neral inves tigating it ? HON. J. B. CARROLL (M inister of Welfare) (T he Pas) : Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the member would tell us what happened to Mrs. Pratt? MR . GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I think I would be del ighted to go on and read Herbert to the House but we have other things to do. MR , LYON: Mr.

Chairman, I thank my honourable friend for that very interesting ex cerpt from Sir Alle:-i Herbert' s famous "Uncommon Law. " I hasten to reiterate what he has already said, that I don't think that that could be written about a coroner's inquest in Manitoba, but if it could, we'll be lo oking for a new coroner.

By and large, the coroner's procedure, as he' s well aware, comes to us by virtue of the Common Law Practice of Great Britain, and there is a famous textbook - I don't know if there is a new one that's supplemented the one that I used to use - "Boyse on Coroners", which would give you the whole procedure of how a coroner's inquest should be con ducted.

As recently as this morning I was reading the studies of Chief Justice McRuer on human rights in Ontario and he delves into the whole question of coroners' inquests and the procedures that should be adopted for them, and from just a cursory reading of his recommendations I would say that they can be extremely instructive to us. Certainly we will be lo oking at the whole question of coroners in Manitoba this year because of certain reservations that we have about some of the practices, that is not that they are improper practices, but perhaps some of them are out of date.

I have always p.ersonally had the view that a coroner's inquest in the case of a charge ·of murder or a charge of manslaughter where the charge is going to be laid by the CroNn, it's really a usel ess procedure because action is bei ng taken with respect to the death of the de ceased person in the court and the coroner's inque st is almost a third leg on the procedure that we c:istomarily take.

On the other hand, I think a case can be made and a good case can be made for compulsory inquests as we attempt to have them for instance for all deaths in government institutions where a suici de takes place in a jail or in a custodial institution, unl ess it can be shown to be death by natural caus es.

I think the public interest is served by having an open inquest at wHch six citizens chosen at random from the public hear the evide nce, the swor,1 testimony before a ju dicial official, and are able to satisfy not only themselves but are able to satisfy the public that the circumstances of the death are as they finally report it in their verdict, un trammelled by any influence of the Court or by institutional officials or anyone else.

So I wouldn 't too quickly throw out the whole concept of coroners because I do think that in those instances they serve the public interest, because we co:'.Ile back to the old cliche - it' s

April 3, 1968 765 (MR . LYON cont'd. ) still a go::id one however - that justice must not only be done it must appear to be done, and I think that.coroners' inque sts serve this useful function, particularly in cases where there is little likelihood of any other subsequent legal proc eedings, civil or crimi nal, taking place.

But we are. looking at the whole question of coroners' inquests at the prese nt time and I think the McRuer Commission Report will be very instructive to all of the common law provinces of Canada, because one of his rec ommendations in particular deals with the point raised by my honourable friend from Inkster that there should be statutory rules laid down, some c::>dification of the old common law rules as to what the jurisdiction is of the coroner, who may question the witnesses and so on.

This is laid down by common law proce dure: It is followed, I would say, very well by our.c oroners in Manitoba, the large majority of who:::n are medical practitioners untrained in the �aw. But my experience, as I am sure the experience of my honourable friend, has been that they do an exceptionally good job with the aid and help from time to time of the Crown Attorneys and the solicitors who are there repres enting families or represe nting other relat!;ld interests.

They do an exceptionally good job and they do try, as incisively as possi ble, to have the evidence adduced as to where, when, how and by what means the deceased came to his death. I have no criticism of the practices of our coroners' courts, and saying what I have said today I wouldn't want anyone to think that I am criticizing any individual coroner, but rather like the honourable member I think we should be paying attention now to this total concept and to where it can be streamlined to suit the requirements of the twentieth century. MR. PIITLIP PETURRSON (Wellin gton) : Mr.

Chairman, I think I would like to direct a question and a couple of remarks to the Attorney-General or whichever other Minister is in volved in this particular field. It has to do with coroners' inquests in a way, but speci fically with the burial or disposal of bodies for burial or otherwise. Up in the north it would be burial mainly; they have no crematoriums up there. But it has to do with inquests and coroner s, so I feel tm t it fits quite appropriately in here. As we know, the settlements in the northern part of the province are pretty well scattered ..

Pe::>ple do not enjoy the same amenities of life as we do here in Winnipeg and the southern part of the provinc e, and I know that things are and can be quite difficult on occasio n. I know also that in the event of death and burial s, disposa l of a dead body, that things of necessi ty often have to be carried out in rather a rough and ready sort of a manner. I've had some experience of that myself in having been called up into, not too distant northerly points, but on a couple of occas ions quite some dista nce.

Butthe specific point that I am arriving at is that there was an autopsy or post-mortem - I don't know the distinction between the two - performed on a man. He may have been a derelict type of individual and it was felt that there should be a post-m ortem. Is that the word ? - (Interj ection) -- Autopsy? -- (Interje ction) -- It doesn't matter. The police were in charge of the burial , or oi the shipping of the body to the point of burial, and the examinations necessary, or that is that were satisfactory to the police, had been made and the coffin was to be closed.

The story, as I had it, was that relatives of this man were prese nt, and before the lid was fastened down on the coffin I believe it was an officer or some other official appeared with a plastic bag and raised the lid and threw it in and said, "Bury the guts with him. " These are the exact words that were spoken to me in des cribing this particular event. What kind of provision is made up in the north where people are far from settled corn- ' munities ? How are bodies handled and how are they disposed of, and who looks after things if there's not autopsy necessary or needed.

I know that the Mounted Police would be closely in volved, but are there coroners in the north or are there people who look after these things to see that the disposal of a body is carried out in a manner that would even in a very basic sense be acceptable to survivors of the dead perso n. We all know that death when it comes creates a very sensitive situation for many people, and in Winnip eg !or in settled communities it' s a thing that can be handled quite easily. There are provisions, 1all kinds of provisions made and bills have been passed.

There is such a thing as The Burial Act and things of this sort to which individual s conform. But in the north, what provisions are made ? How are they ma de ? How are these things handled ?. Are they handled to the complete satisfaction, if not complete just partial satisfaction, of individual s concerned and can things be done in such a way as not to show disrespect either to the survivors or to the dead person. I feel that this comes very closely in or is very closely linked in to the whole

766 April 3, 196 8 ( MR. PETURRSON con t'd.) . . . . . question of coroners and inquests and things that are in volved with that offi ce or pos ition. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, there are coroners in most of the major settled areas of northern Manitoba, Thompson, Churchill - I'm not sure - I think we have one as well atGillam. The problem arises, and this is just my own pers onal opinion, the allegation that my honourable friend makes there certainly could never be condoned if the police did as my honourable fri end suggests or as he was told. That could never be condoned and certainly should not take place.

I think the absence of funeral directors in the north, or the scarcity of them, probably contributes as much in these cases to complaints arising of this nature because of course fune ral directors ensure that proper respect is paid to any bodies that are committed to them for burial. The :iistances involved, however, do result in the odd complaint that has come to the department. I could n't answer his question though extensively to say that we are satisfied or dissatisfied.

The only cases that we would come into contact with of course would be the cases where an autopsy was ordered by a coroner to :ietermine the cause of death. Whether he might then subseq uently have an inquest or not have an inquest would of course be up to his judgmeat subject to review by the department. But I'll be glad to look into it arid ascertain for my honourable friend if the complaints are numerous or whether they are scarce in number. I have heard the odd one myself and that's all I can give him as a pers onal opinion. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, the item we' re discussing I think deals with sanity exam inations as well. Could the Honourable Minister tell us how often are these reviewed ? Once a commitment is made of a pers on to an institution, is it very diff icult to get him out? From time to time we have articles appearing in various magazines and so on des cribing situations in some of the institutions and they describe it in terrible terms. Now I would like to know from the Minister: Are these examinations reviewed annually or are they re-examined or what is the situation ?

Then yesterday when I spoke under the Minister' s salary, I questioned him on the matter of consoli dation of regulations and whether we had a revision. Has there ever been a revision made of the regulations, and if so, what year and how far do we go back. Co uld he give us some information in this general regard in connection with the regulations ? MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, I neglected to comment on .my honourable frien d's sugges tion about consol idation of regulations. We would li ke to see that done. Until we get the statutes out of the road, howev er, it is unlikely that it will be done.

The regulations are bound annually in a separate volume. Many of them - not many - a number of them have annual ef fect only and they'r e of course self-repealing or are repealed the next year by replac ement regulations such as the annual regulations put out by the Wildlife Bra:ich on trapping and so on. But there is a need for conso l idation and we will be lo oking into that because his point is very well taken. With respect to mental health commitments, this more properly comes under the Depart ment of Health.

The only area in which our department be comes involved is where a magistrate, pursu ant to the provisio ns of the Criminal Co de, can require an accused perso n before him to be examined before he is dealt with in court, and subsequently if the person is comm itted to court, it then comes under The Mental Diseases Act which is under the Department of Health.

There is provision, however, within that Act for appeal and then the practice, as I'm sure the Minister of Health would tell us , the practice currently of the mental institutions and their directors in Manitoba, to the best of my information, is to ensure that pers ons who are ready to return to the mainstream of li fe are released as quickly as possible. In fact that has been the recent practice in most of the institutions with which I am aware, that they try to return perso ns to the home eavironment as quickly as they can because of the therapy value of it and other factors.

In other wor ds, as I understand it, the treatment basis today is not lo aded in favour of commitment so much as it is in favour of release in the usual cases of mental disease. But he can more properly discuss that I think with the Minister of Health. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, I'd li ke to raise a question that the Minister may not be able to answer today, that perhaps he could next time we return to his estimates. A matter that's been causing concern in certain quarters is a case where a woman, a mother of four children, was killed on December 24, 19 66.

Circumstances of this accident, was this woman had been out tobogganing with her family and decided to leave a little bit early, and proceeded to take the bus home. She was waiting for the bus on a sidewalk to go home, when a car went out of control and jumped the curb and killed this woman. Now, it was suggested

April 3, 196 8 (MR. GUTTORMSON cmt'd. ) after the ac cident that the men in the car were fooling 767 around, apparently - it was suggested to me , and! can't substantiate this, but it was suggested to me by more than one person, that the passe nger in this car had seen this girl and knew her and got smart and said - "There's a i;J.oll, let' s pick her up, " and he grabbed the wheel I'm told -- I can' t substantiate it but I' m told - and je rked it on the driver and as a result the car spun out of control , crossed over the curb and killed this woman on Christmas Eve.

Now this ac cident has caused tremendous stress in the family and subseq uently the charges were laid in connection with the accident and then for some reason unknown to me, the charges were dropped. I know the family and other people who are aware of this case are extremely concerned and wonder why this matter never went to court. Now maybe there's a valid reason, I don't know. I can understand if the Minister could not perhaps give me an answer at this time but I would ask him when we resume his estimates, that he might be able to let us know, and maybe pro vide us with a copy of the Police Report.

The name of the woman involved was Verna Stout. The· Minister suggested earlier that I might deal with this matter of the forms sent out by the department. We've heard a lot of discussions on this side of the House about unconscionable transactions and so on and we have a form here which was sent out to farmers to sign. I'll give you the background.

There' s a number of people up in my constituency flooded by the Fairford River and compensation was sought and the government agreed to pay the compensa tion and I think it was in February, or this month - last month rather, an agent of the Depart ment of AgricultUre took the cheques to these individuals who had applied for damages and be fore they could get these cheques, insisted that they sign this document. Many of the people did sign the document. They were told to sign it but some questioned it. They phoned me and I interpreted what the document said.

I said "Don't sign it" if it says what I think it says. Mr. Chail'.man, had this man signed this document which he was tol d to sign, it would have precluded him from ever applying for damages again in connection with this matter. Now this is flood damage and there is a possibility that these people who were affected, could be affe cted again this year as a result of the land turning sour on them. And the sentence that' s causing me C·Jncern says, it's in legal terminol ogy, and had they signed this document they would �ve no opportunity to claim for damages again.

It seems to me that if a government agency, we have enough trust companies and what not getting people to sign documents that they aren't aware of what they're signing, that we should n't have a government document doing this. I think people should .know the full implications of what they'r e signing. Now as I said, in this case the people were flooded and they were paying for damages in 19 67; but as most people know, where there' s flood damage and the water lays on the land, the land can turn sour and can render the land useless for a seco nd and possibly a third year.

Now had they signed this, they would have had no opportunity to claim for damages in '6 8 on the basis of the damage in 19 67. I think it' s wrong that the government should take documents like this to people to sign, particularly when they're not aware of what they're signing. These people are not le arned in law. Subseqilently I met with the official s in the Department of Agriculture in connection with this matter. They confirmed what I had said that this - they said this was a standard pro cedure, and they had to do this for the protection of the government.

As a result of our dis cuss ions I think! they have agreed to draft a new document for these people so they will not be precluded from iap;:>lying for damages. We're not suggest ing that they should get damages; we'r e just le avihg the door open that they could apply.

I would suggest to the Minister that if he's the one I should make the suggestion to, that anybody represe nting the government should not take a document to be signed and not fully explain the implications of what the people are signing, becaus'e in this particular case there' s no question, if they signed the document, they were preclu ding themselves from applying for damages and they were leaving themselves wide open to not get any damages at any other time and I don't think an agency or a government de partment should ever do this again .. -- (Interjection) -- I'd be happy to. MR.

CHAIBMAN: 3--passed; (a)- -passed; (b)(l ) --passed. The Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, there has been a great deal of discussion in the House and in Committee in regard to the Vaughan Street Jail, and I'm not going to add to it. -- (Inter jection) -- Pardon me ? I appreciate that. I'm not discussing that at the moment. This is an old institution and was built a long time ago and probably if the Minister had to do it now he would do it diff erently. However, Mr. Ch airman, I had occas ion on the weekend to be at Gillam where there is a new Local Government District building.

It's a very nice lo oking

768 April 3, 1968 (:MR. GREEN cont'd. ) . . . . . building and has all the government facilities in the building, in cluding of course the Magistrate's Court and the place where people would be locked up, await ing court, and of course it' s very clean and it' s - as it looks in the building now, it looks like a very decent type of facility. We notice, Mr.

Chairman, that the beds in the cells were the entire width - of course they'r e not beds, they're pieces of metal which are bolted in from wall to wall and there are two of them in each of the cells, and the cells I would say are about 6 x 6 and the entire length of this particular facility which was to be used as a bed was six feet. It looked smaller than that but we had the Member for St. Matthews, who is not here, lay him self out, and he is a short fellow much like myself, and he, Mr. Chairman, barely got him self into this bed lying flat.

There might have been two inches at the top of his head which means that any person that has any height at all couldn 't possibly fit into that cell comfortably. Now, Mr. Chairman, there's always a danger that when you're asking for a normal place to sleep that someone will say that you're coddling crimirials.

I would like the Chairman to know immediately that first of all I'm not discus sing that; I'm discussing people who are charged with an offence and who are in custody awaiting appearance before a magistrate, and I assu me that these cells would be for such people, and if we are not merely paying lip-service to the proposition that a man is innocent until proven guilty, the people who these cells are designed for are people who may be as innocent as any other person walking down the street. I know that it would be impossible to provide them with first class hotel accommodations, but if we are doing it now, Mr.

Chairman, we' re not talking about a facility that is built in a less en lightened age, we are talking about a facility that is being built in 19 68, that it could be some thing which we would be happy to say, an innocent man is going to spend an evening in. Be cause we're talking about an innocent person, until he's proven guilty, and therefore I would merely like to know, Mr.

Chairman, whether in new facilities, in facilities that are going up, that there's going to be a standard of comfort, not for the purpose of coddling anybody, but for the purpose of making sure that when a person has to be incarcerated, awaiting trial, that that facility will be something that we are prepared to say is reasonable for an innocent person, not a guilty person. MR. CHAffiMAN: 2--passed. MR. HANUS CHAK: On this item there' s just two or three points that I wish to raise.

It pleased me to note in the report that we received last night, the Report on Co rrections in Manitoba, that the Honourable Minister has instituted a course for the officers dealing with the process of rehabilitation. I'm not quite sure, however, whether this rehabilitation program will - if and when it's instituted, and I do hope that it's institute::l. soon, I hope that it' s instituted within a shorter period of time than the time lapse that' s occurred between the first promise of replacement for the Vaughan Street Detention Home and the present date - I do hope, Mr.

Chairman, that this program, this rehabilitative program will extend beyond the period for which a person may be confined to a correctional institution, in other words that there will be some follow-through after he leaves. I've looked through the report to see if there is any provision for it and there is some reference, true enough.

There is reference to what is being done by voluntary organizations . by what' s being done by the John Howard and Elizabeth Fry Soc iety and I also take it that even the Provincial Chaplain, or Chaplains - I believe there are two, a Protestant one and a Catholic one - the Provincial Chaplains are to some degree responsible for this type of activity. Now, it would seem, Mr.

Chairman, that when you spread the responsibility over s'o wide an area, voluntary organizations, employees of the government and not making one person or one department specifically responsible for this type of program, that the work will not get done - not because of anybody's unwillingness to do it but because of the difficulty in the follow-through program. I note that if the Chaplains were to do an effective job within the walls of our cor rectional institutions, there are about 4, OOO people a year to contact which is physically im possible for two men to do. I hope, Mr.

Chairman, that the Minister will give us some assurance or some indication of the nature of the rehabilitative program that he envisages coming into being which would put to maximum use for the people of Manitoba the type of train ing program that he has for his correctional officers and other staff at the present time. MR. LYON: ... area is largely the responsibility of the Parole Board, the National Parole Board.

The rehabilitation wor;;:, the custodial training program is under a Director of Training within the department who looks after all of it for all institutions in the department - one person charged with that sole responsibility. The two Chaplains, while they are the only

April 3, 1968 769 ' (MR. LYON cont'd. ) . . . . . two on staff, they organize the voluntary chaplain work that is done in other areas, other judicial districts in Manitoba by the many members of the diff erent clergy who service the institutions on a part time basis. So they are not respo nsible for going to all institutions on suhday, because of course it's physically impossible for them to do so. But they organize within the Ca tholic faith and the Pro :estant faith the volunteer ministers who do the services within the jail. Perhaps if we could pass these items. We'r e obviously not going to finish.

I move the Co mmittee rise. MR. CHAffiMAN: 2--passe d. l\ffi. FROESE : Mr. Chairman, on the matter of grants, the matter of John Howard and Eliz abeth Fry societies have been me;itioned. Do we get reports from these organizations where grants are made to and the grants that we are making what percentage would they con stitute of their budgets ? Is it a large amount or is it just a minor amount? MR. LYON: This grant that's shown is to the John Howard - Eliz abeth Fry Society - it's a substantial part of their budget. The Federal Gove rnment also contributes as do the Greater Winnipeg - the Winnipeg Fo undation.

This repres ents a substantial part of their budget. The work, in my estimation, and the estimation of the department that is done by the John Howard and El izabeth FIJ: Society is exceedingly good. l\ffi. CHAIRMAN: 2--passed; 3--passed; 4--passed; (b)--passed; (c}- -passed; -- (Inter jection) -- MR. LYON: Well, if there's going to be questions on (

c) perhaps we should move that the Co mmittee rise. MR . CHAffiM AN: Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Co mmittee of Supply has adopted certain resolu tions and directed me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. IN SE SSION MR . WATT: Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourabl e Member for Springfield that thfl report of the Com mittee be received. l\ffi. SPEAKER prese nted the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, because of the early hour of adjournment I'll move adj ourn ment tonight.

Before doing so, I'm sure I speak for all memb ers when I wish a certain group in this House a safe trip and a good trip on behalf of Canada. MR, CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I would like to acknowledge my honourable friend 's courtesy in \\ishitig some of us a good and safe trip and I'm sure that what we will accomplish will be to the advantage of Canada as a whol e. MR, RUSSE LL PAULLEY (Leajer of the New Democratic Party) (Radisso n) : ... happy note, Mr. Speaker, any change would be to the advantage. MR. CAMPBE LL: My hJnourable friend is speaking of Manitoba. MR.

PAULLE Y: Then I'll amend that to read "Ca nada", Mr. Speaker. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Provincial Treasurer that the House do now adjourn and stand adjourned until 2:3 0 Monday afternoon. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adj9urned until Monday af ternoon, 2:3 0 p. m.

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-2-31
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 2nd hansardpdf 31.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	fc8f0ffd973f6b179bb30d1675bc7a4c589381a6

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