Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 10, 1975 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE'- jP.ALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 14

December 10, 1975 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 506 STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. ~~. PECKFORD: tlr. Speaker, I should like to clarify the situation concerning the Point of Bay water system that was raised in the House yesterday by t·he hon. member for Exploits.

I am giving .a verbal resume' of the situation, lf the hon. member requests or desires or wants,or whatever, a written resume of it can be forthcoming in the next couple of days, but in the interest of expediency I thought I would give a verbal report on a ~ather contentious and unusual situation at Point of Bay.

The Point of Bay Community Council had a winter capital works programme some time ago in which they started a water system 1 .as I understand it; that the $50,000 that. was allocated as a guaranteed loan under the capital works programme of the department this year was to continue on with that very worthwhile project.

In a telegram sent to the council, and the date e•capes me at the moment, around May or June of this year when they were told that they had a $50,000 guaranteed loan to proceed with the system, that telegram indicated to them that before any monies could be expended they were to contact the Director of Finance, Mr. Goodland,of the Department of Municipal Affairs and additionally they were also to contact the Chief Local Government Engineer, Mr. Dyke, for the appoint~nt of consulting engineers to properly manage and carry out that project.

Neither one of these rN•uPsts «as followl'rl "-'" the council on any records that I can find in the department, ~ - o they did not contact the department as requested on the telegram that was sent to them authorizing the $50,000. They di.d proceed 1apparently,to expend the monies, the $50,000, to do the project and it was not until September that members of the Water Services nivision of my. ~epartment in Grand Falls and the area administrator in Gander, Mr. Randell, llecame involved in the project. And 1253

Tl€'cember 10, 1975 Tape No. 506 NM- 2 MR. PECKFORD: they only became involved in it at that time because, I think, the council were requesting an additional amount of money to complete the project, over and above the $50,000. I think th" amount that they were requesting at the time was ~? . , 100 which was,I think,rejected because after examination on the site by officials of the department it was not felt that it was needed at that time. That is where the situation stands. The council did not follow regular procedures laid out in the telegrams sent to them. However, the money has been spent.

The community is not in a position to recover the cost of the $50,000 locally. Legally the council is responsible. It is unfortunate that they did not follow the proper procedures that were laid down explicitly in a telegram to them, But the department,of course,will hofiour its commitment even though the council in the first instance did not follow t~rough on the proper procedures legally laid down in the telegram. P~ESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: ~~. SPEAKER: The han. ~inister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. ~- MJRPHY: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to table regulations regarding ~ Automobile Dealers Regulations,l975, and regulations of the Trust T,"an Company Regulations, 1975• Copies will be distributed to all . '- QUESTIONS TOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: I' . SPF./ • .. ~ : ~~e hon. the Premier. ------- r-m. MOORES: Mr. Spe, ;,;!r, one question was asked the other day in reply to a question ':o~ the hon. member for Exploits, regarding a sewerap,e system ·or the trailer oark ~ '"vest end of BiRho-p's FRlls. T r.hecked ,.Jith the .- p;~rtment of l"unicipal Ac L: l n;.

They have not had an application from the town 1uncil as yet,but it was one of the undertakings we made at that time ' •·ertainly upon receipt of the application we will be giving it lrleration along with the other applicati~ns this year. 1254

ll~>~cemb e r 10, 1975 Tape 507 .PK- 1 .f:!!l:·2PF.AKE~: The hon. Minister of Public Works. 11r. Speaker, I ask leave to table answers to the quest1ons on the Order Paper asked by the hon. member f~m Twillingate; ANSiiER TO QUESTION NO. 251 ASKED BY HONOURABLE MR. SMALLWOOD (TWILLINGATE) , DIRECTED TO THE HONOURABLE THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKs AND SERVICES, APPEARING ON THE ORDER PAPER OF NOVEMBER 24, 1975 QUESTION: (1) 1'/hat (ire the names of members and of employees, if aay, of the Pippy Park Commission? ANSI~ER: ME.."'BERS - T.S.A. Freeman - Chairman Geoffrey L.

Steele - V~ce Chairman John Murphy - Representative of City of St. John's T. corbin Noel - Representative o.f Memo:tial University J~es V. Finn - Representing the Pippy Family G- Gordon Butler . - Representing the Department of Public Works & Services George H. Matthews - Member John J. Cochrane - Membe.r Emplo¥ees - (seconded from DelJartment of Public t'lorks and Services) OFFICl;; ------ C. M. Manning Sharon Donovan L.

Mac:D9nald Wanda Lambert .(Temporary) GROUNDS STAFF - J ames Bo1m Hubert Petey Cyr il Butler Alexander Stanley Ri ch ard Coombs Robert Summers Phil i p Grouchy William Sweetappl~ 'Robert .Janes James T!lz;pin Ceci l Kean Gregory liilliams Douglas LeGt· o:.~ Ja.Iiles Yetman ~lich ael Had di g an Ke01neth Pent .on Basil YO'DI19 1.255

necember 10, 1975 Tape 507 PK- 2 1\NS\~ER TO QU!::STION NO . 252 ASKED BY !IONOURABLE I'IR. 5111\LL\·lOOD (T\o/ILL ING!'.'l'C:) , DIRECTED TO THE HO::-IOURA!ILE Tflt: HINISTE:R OF PUBLIC \•lORKS A.tofD SERVICES, A?PEARU:G 0:~ THE ORDER PAPER OF NOVEMBER 24, 1975.

QU;:; nON: (1) l·fnat are the na.::tes of Departments of the Government, or any othet's, o~cupyin g space in the Sir Richard Squires Building in Corner Brook? l'\NSNER : DE:?ARTHSNTS - Premier's Office Trans;:x>rtation & Communications Hunic ipa l Affairs & Housing Social Services Justice Health Public Works & Services Manpower & Indusqia l Relations Rural Development Rehabilitation & Recreation Finance (mailroom) OTH£ R - Corner Brook City Library R.C.t1.P . John Ho~1ard Socie ty 1256

D~cemher 1n, 1075 Tape 507 PK - 3 1\NSNER '1'0 QtJESTION NO. 253 1\Sl<.E:O BY HONOURABLE MR. SMALLWOOD (TIULLINGATE), DIRECTED TO TilE HONOURABLE THE: IUNISTER OF PU~LIC l·lORKS .MD S!::RVICES , APPEARING 0:-1 THE ORDER PAPER OF NOVEMOER 24, 1975 QUJ.:STION: (1) \•:hat are the names of Departments of the Government, or any others, occupying space in the Public Building in Grand Falls?

AN SliER : DE:PAR'i ~lZNTS - 1-!anpower & Industrial Relations flealth Social Services Transportation & Commu.nications Provincial Affairs & Environment Municipal Affairs & Housing Education Rehab i litatio~ & Recreation Forestry & Agriculture Premier's Office Touri sm Justice Public tiorks & Servic..-es OTHER - R.C.M.P. Grand Falls Nuseum 1257

necemher 10, 1975 Tape 507 PK - 4 ANSNER TO QUESTIOtll NO. 254 1\SKE:D BY HONOURA!JLE MR. SNALL!=IOOD ('rl-IILLINGATE) , DIR::CTED TO TilE HO.'IIOUAABLE THE MINI STER OF PUBLIC 1-IORKS AND SERVICES, APPEA.!UNG 0.'11 THE ORDER PAPER OF NOVEMBER 24, 1975 QUEST!O.'I: (1 ) ;\nat are the names of Departments of the Governmen t, or any others occupying s pace in the Public Building in the City of. ~·;abush? 1\NSNE:R: Social Services Health Manpower & Industrial Relations Justice Forestry & Agr~culture Tourism Transportation & Communic ation s OTHER - Labrador West Safety Council 1258

OecPmber JO, 1975 Tape 507 PK- 5 A~S\-IER TO aJESTHJJ ;~o. 255 AS:<ED BY HQ~OORABL£ fllR. SWHUJD CTWILlli~GATE) DIRECTED TO THE HmOURABLE TilE NiiHSTER IF PUBLIC WORKS AID SERVICES, APPEARii~G Q~ TilE ORDER PAPER OF iJOVEMBER 24, L975. QJESTIO'l: A~Shffi: QUESTION: ( 1) ARE TI-fERE PROVINCIAL REGULATIONS GOVERNING THE USE OF ALUMINUM WIRING IN COMMERCIAL, INDUSTRIAL OR RESIPENTIAL BUILDINGS IN THE PROVINCE?

YEs • THE i~EWFOUNDLAND AND lABRADOR tLECTRI CAL CoDE ALLCl~s THE USE OF AUI'·1INUM WIRING, H(J,IIEVER, IT IS UNDER MUCH STRICTER INSPECTION TI-fAN OTHER WIRING AND, TO THIS DATE, HAS BEEN Llffi.E USED IN I~EWFOUNDLAND, ALUMINUM WIRING IS ALSO PERMITTED UNDER THE CANADIAN ELECTRICAL CoDE. ANSI~ER TO QUESTION NO. 256 ASKED BY HONOURABLE I-IR.

SMALLWOOD (TIHI.I.INGl\.TE) , DIREC'l'ED TO THE'' HONOURABLE THE MINISTER OF PUElLIC I•IORKS AND SERVICES, APPEl\.RTNG ON 'I'llll ORDI':R PAPER OE' NOVF:~!BF.R 2<'1, 1975 l'ihat are the locations o:I: any office, clerical, inspection or other officials of your Department stationed outside St. John's? Office - none Clerical - Corner Brook Inspection - Clarenville, Gander, Corner Brook Other - Buildings operation, custodial and security staff in - Springdale - Stephenville - Placentia - Stephenville Crossing - Bonavista - St.

Anthony - Lewisporte - Baie Verte - Clarenville - Cham1el - Carbonear - Heart's Content - Corner Brook - Harbour Grace - Grand Falls -Bonne Bay - Seal Cove (Conception Bay) - St. George's - Gander - Catalina Bell Isl<md - Fogo - Salt Pond - Trinity (Trinity Bay) - Port-aux-Basques - Husgrave Harbour 1259

December 10, 1975 Tape 507 PK- 6 Brig us - Grand Bank Happy Valley -Botwood Flower's Cove - Harbour Breton Temporary painters employed in - ~lark land - Old Perlican St. Lawrence Lama line ANSWER TO QUESTION NO. 592 AS~D BY MR. NEARY (LAPOILE) , DIRECTED ?0 THE HONOURABLE THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND SERVICES, APPEARING ON THE ORDER PAPER OF NOVEMBER 24, 1975 QUESTION: (

l) vlliat is the n~ber of journeys involving public business which he has made since January 1, 1975 to places outside Canada, showing for each journey: (

a) the names of the countries visited; (b) ~ates of the journey; (

c) the total cost to the Government for hotel accommodations, meals, ground and air transportation and other expenses; (

d) whether or not any member of his staff, or any other person accompanied him for all or a portion of his journey and, if so, (

i) what is the name of each such person, (

H) what is the title of the position each such person .holds or h~ld, (iii) what was the total cost to the Government for hotel accommodations, meals, ground and air transportation and other expenses for each such person. (

c) the nature of the public busim·ss attended to on the jo.un~y·: The Honourable ~linister of Public Works and Services has not made any journeys involving public business since January 1, 1975 to places outside Canada. 1260

December 10, 1975 Tape 507 PK- 7 ANSWER TO QUESTIOi~ riO. 595 ASKED BY t·'1R, i~EARY <LAPOilf), DIRECTED TO THE HCl~OURABli THE niiHSTER OF A.J'BLIC VKJRKS Aiill SERVICES, APf£ARI1~G a~ THE ORDER PAffR OF f~OVEffiER 24, 1975, QJESTIO~:

(1) WHAT IS THE TOTAL COST TO DATE OF THE CONSTRUCTION AND EQUIPPING OF THE ENGINEERING BUILDING ON rrs~oRIAL UN!VERSI1Y CAMPus? (2) \'h-JAT WILL BE 11-lE APPROXIMATE COST TO C0'1PLETE THE ENGINEERING BUILDING?

(3) WHAT IS THE PLANNED OPENING DATE OF THE NEW ENGINEERING BUILDING?

(1) CONSTRUCTION COST TO DATE - CONSULTANTS' FEES, EXPENSES ETC, - FURNISHINGS AND EQUIPMENT (COSTS INCURRED BUT BILLS NOT YET PRESENTED FOR PAYMENT BY UNIVERSI1Y)

(2) CosT TO COMPLETE CONSTRUCTION (~>DSTLY PAYMENT OF HOLDBACKS), ETC. FURNISHINGS AND tQUIPMENT $7,113,46J, 482,291. 700,roJ. $8,295,751. 840.665, L050,000. $1,890,665.

(3) As FAR AS STUDENT OCCUPANCY IS CONCERNED, THE BUILDING WAS OPENED I~OYEMBER }5, 1975 AND IT IS NOW 60% OCCUPIED, IT IS OUR UNDERSTANDING THAT [~EMORIAL UNIVERSI1Y MAY PLAN AN OFFICIAL OPENING, Hcft.IEVER, IT IS OUR FURTHER UNDERSTANDING 1HAT 11-liS ~ULD BE SOMETIME IN 11-lE NB</ YEAR, 1261

Deeeaber 10, 1975 TQe 507 ,x-- a HR~ ~PEA)<ER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. HON. W. CARTER: Mr. Spe~ker,I ask leave to table answers to questions on the Order Paper by theFhon. member from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) and the bon. member for Fogo (Capt. E. Win•or). QUESTION 669. CAPT WINSOR (Fogo) -To ask the Minister ?f F~sheries.to_ lay ~pon the Table of the House the follow1ng 1nformat1on.

(1) No

(1) Since January 18, 1972 and as of curren~ date, have_the . Government appointed any pe~son ~o ~e D1rector of F1sher1es Technology, D~partment of F1sher1es.

(2) If so, (

a) on what date was he appointed? (

b) what is his name, and (

c) what is his annual rate of salary?

(2) Not applicable due to answer to Question 1. QUESTION 354. HONOURABLE MR. SMALLWOOD (Twillingate) - To ask the Honourable Minister of Fisheries to lay upon the Table of the House the following information: Answer No. Has the Government made an estimate of the number of years; commencing next year, the cod fishery is likely to be viable for the inshore fishermen, and the number of years the off-shore fishery may be viable for the off-shore fishing flee~f Newfoundland, if the 200-mile fishing zone is not declared and firm control exercised over it by Canada? 1262

December 10, 1975 Tape 507 PK - 9 343. HONOURABLE MR. SMALLWOOD (Twillingate) -To ask the Honourable Minister of Fisheries to lay upon the Table of the House the following information: What is ~he number and tonnage of new draggers and new longliners brought into use in each of the financial years 1970 - 1975. AN SHER: NEW LONGL I NERS BROU GHT INTO US E Financ i al Year Nu mb e r Gross Tonnage 1970/71 14 304 1971/72 45 1243 1972/73 73 1941 1973/74 95 2596 1974/75 32 976 NEW DRAGGERS BROUGHT INTO USE Financial Year Number Gross Tonnage 1970/7 1 1971/72 292 ·1972/73 5 3747 1973/74 5 34 51 l 974/75 4 261 8 1263

December 10, 1975 Tape 507 PK - 10 f11!F~Timi 337. HOr-iOIJRARLE MR . . c;MI\LLWOOD (Twillinqate) -To ask the Honourable Minister of Fisheries to lav upon the Table of the House the fOllowinn information: ANSWER: Supply a statement showing loans or nuarantees extended to the fish firms in each of the financial years lQ70 - 75. Please refer this question to the Minister of Finance for response. QUESTION 352. HONOURABLE MR.

SMALL\~000 (Twill i ngate) - To ask the Honourable Minister of Fisheries to lay upon the Table of the House ANSWER the following information: \>Jhat arP. the details of the purchase at Burgeo of Fish Planfs and dragoers by Government? Please redirect this ouestion to the Minister <if Industrial Development for rPsnonse. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister for Forestry and Argiculture. HON. J. ROUSSEAU: }!r. Speaker, in reply first of all to an oral QUestion raised yesterday about the machinery out in Central Newfoundland, indeed the hon. member from Exploits (Mr. Mulrooney) posed the question.

He is indeed right, some of the equipment is too large. Hopefully in the future-not hopeful!y, it will be in the future that any time any more purchases are made in machinery - this is not powered machinery, it is powered by the farmers themselves when they use it out of the central system out there that there will be better consultation with 1264

December 10, 1975 Tape 507 PI<- 11 the farmers not only in that area but in any other area where a Rimilar programme might go ahead. So there is indeed some problem with the size of the equipment now, and we will attempt to try and ~et the appropriate equipment in there. And in future,as I say, any equipment purchased will be done so only after consultation with the people who '~ill be usinr: it. And in answer to a question from the han. member from Lapoile (Hr.

Neary), proposed to me the question. · ~ lEARY ( LaPoilc) - 'l'o ask the Honourable Hinister off Forestry & Agriculture to la:' upon t!te table of the ifouse the follo>·line i"fjrmf.fion: ' 'R. ROll~._ FAU : ----- - -- - \·/hat is the nu;nber of journeys involving publiv business ~lhich he has made since January 1; 1975 to places outside Canada, sho-.ring for each journey: (

a) the names of the countries visited; (

b) dates of the journey; (

c) the total cost to the Government for hotel accoillOdations, J::tcals, ground ancl air transportation . and other expenses; (d) 'l'lbether or not any member of his staff, or any other person accompanied him for all or a portion of his journey and, if so1 (

i) t.nat is the name of eacl: such person, {11) what is the title of the position each such person holds or held~ (lll) ;·111at \·ras the total cost to the Government for hotel acco: .1odations, meals, eround and air transportahion and other expenses for e~ch such person. (

e) the nature of the public business attended to on the journey? J nm embarrassed to say to the hon. member that I have had none, nor in 1Q72, nor in 1973, nor in 1974. That is embarrassing, h:.< I have not. M'P. . . s~AKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. ~ -. ~LS :_ Mr. Speaker in anslJer to a question asked yesterday about our participation in the Arctic Winter Games, by coincidence a letter was received from the Arctic Winter Games Corporation this morning authorizing Newfoundland and Labrador to contribute twenty athletes and 1265

December 10, 1975 Tape 507 PK- 12 Mr. Wells: five observers to these Games. There is no information available to us at this ti~e as to how many are going from other provinces of Canada. MR. _S!_E~ The bon. Minister of Health. RON. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have several answers here to questions which have been on the Order Paper. Question No. 379 HONOURABLE ~1R. SMALL\'iOOD (Twillingate) - To ask the Honourable Minister of Health to lay upon the Table of the House the following information: Are there any reliable statistics on the rate of expec­ tation of life in this Province?

Ml! • r.nq ,Tt.r<l • We have confined our answer to that question. We are not giving any predictions on the political life of some of the bon. members opposite or on this side either for that matter. It might be of interest to the House that the latest figures available pertain to 1971. In that year, males at birth had a life expectancy of 69.34 years and fem~les, who have it all over us, an expectancy of 76.36 years. I w1tl table the answers. !!R_. _SMALLWOOD: Before the hon. minister goes on, has he got any figures of earlier years so that a comparison misht be made? MR. COLLINS : Mr.

Speaker, I can get them but the question - we answered the question the best way we saw fit, but if the bon. member would like Rome figures in the past for comparison purposes we can certainly get them. nuestion No. 241. 'lOURABLE MR. SMALLWOOD (Twillingate) - To ask the Honourable ~nister of Finance to lay upon the Table of the House the following information:- What is the total estimated cost of building, equipping and furnishing the new Carbonear Hospital and how much of this amount will have been contributed by Ottawa? 1266,

npcemher 10, 1975 Tape 507 PK- 13 ANSWF.R: The total cost is $13,300,000: contributiorby great Uncle Ottawa is $1,500,000, 1267

December 10 , 1975 Tape no. 508 Page 1 - mw 3 376 HONOURABLE ~1 R . S~tALL\11000 (Twillingatc) - To ask the Honourable Mini ster of Health to lay upon the Table of the House the fo l lowing information : What are the n~mbers of registered nurses in practice in each of the financial years 1965 - 75? ANSWER: Number of registered nurses in practice in Newfoundland from 1965 to 1975: Yea~ 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 Number up to August 31, 1975 1,229 1 , 321 1 , 469 1,585 1, 717 1,870 2,097 2,334 2,286 2,589 2,708 081 HONOURABLE MR.

SMALLI'/000 (Twillingate) - To ask the Honourable t-li nister of Health to lay upon the Table of the House the f Gllowin g info rmation: - A s ta t ement showing the various estimates made from tim e to time of the capital cost of tne new hospital at Carbonear ; and the latest estimate of the probable cost to completion, including furnishing, equipping , etc . ANSNER: Early 1971 June 1972 April 1973 June, 1974 June , 1975 $ 7,500,000 (Based on pr eliminary plan only ) $ 9,490,000 Sll,lOO,OOO $12 , 300,000 $13,300,000 Estimate to complete $13,300,000 1268

necember lQ, 1975 TApe 508 2 - lrW i1383 HONOURJ\BLE ~lR. SMJ\LLriOOD (Twillingatc l - To ask the Uonourable Hinlster of Ileal th to lay upon the 'fable of the !louse the following i nf ormation : - !low many additional beds \vill there be in· the new Memorial, Twillingate and Carbonear Hospitals? 1\HS\'ilm : Health Sciences Complex - None - 340 beds replacing an equal number at the General Hospital, St . John ' s . Twillingate - None - 75 beds replacing an equal number in the old hospital at Twillingate .

Carbonear - 85 beds - New hospital location , 135 beds of which 50 are replacement for beds in old hospital . llO NOUiU~BLE t-1R. SMALLWOOD (Twillingate) - To ask the Honourable Minister of Health to lay upon the Table of the House the following information : \•lhat are the numbers of Drug Stores in Newfoundland in the financial years 1960 - 61, 1970-71, 1975 - 76? financial Years 1960 - 61 financial Years 1970 - 71 Financial Years 1975 - 76 1269 90 dr.ug stores 95 drug stores 105 drug stores

necember 10, 1976 Tape no . 508 Page 3 - mw n ·I o'l JIIJIWUHAI.!Lt:: 1'\ll. !i~1t\I,L<v(;(JI) ('l'wi!!.i.n<j<J.l:e)- '1'0 iiHk Lh··· ll<lll.,llo.ob l •· Hin .w Ler o( ll~<1ll:h LO lay upon the 'l'able o( the: llou:;c llh! in t ho coursu or construction but not.: comp .kl:.< ~d; do contracts exist in all cases for such completion; Lhe proiJ ,d .. >Jc~ Limu or uuc h completion; Llu.! pr obable co: :t o( such com~;>letion? /\NS I·IER Uncler Construction December 1 , 1975 llc<~lth Sci ences Complex , St.

John ' s Estimated Completion Date 1st quarter 197 7 Cost to Complete fro m December 1, 1975 $17 , 000 , 000 carbonear Hospital, Carbonear February, 197 6 $ 1 , 200,000 I'/ a ter ford llospi tal , St . John's Notr e Dame Bay 1-lemorial Hospi tal , Twillingate \·Ic:;Ler n Hemorial Hospital, Corner Brook QUP.S'riON 2 March, 1976 $ 2,500,000 January , 1976 300 , 000 January, 1976 - new tow er $ 2,300,000 June , 1978 - renovations exi st- ing building $ 4,2 00 ,00 0 Yes .

Contracts have been awarded for completion of all pro jects with the exceptio n of renovations to the Christopher Fisher llospi t<tl ilt Corner Brook . These cann ot go ilhead until new tower i !; complet ed and Christopher Fis her Hosp ital vacated . 1270

December 10, 1975 Tape no. 508 Page 4 11·10') llUlJUUlV\BLE Ml~. St•1t\J,LI~OOD ('l'willin<;ute) - 'l'o .:tsk the llonulll:."llll<' J:oUo~;in<J in[onnution:- 1\ sLJ.t~JIIL'nL sht:Jwinq the nunJbc:-J:!; of nurses brou~Jht :into Ncwfoundl.:tnd from England, Scotland, Wales, the Republic of lrel.:tnJ, Northern Ireland and other countries [or the total ~erioJ o[ 1950-75. 1\tJ~)\~EI<: Dut.:t is not av.:tilable priof to 1959.

The following are the numbers of nurses from outside Newfoundland from 1959 to Decc'IIIUCr 5, 1975:- ] <J 'i ') - (,4 1%8 - 98 ]%0 - 70 1%9 - 130 1961 - G7 1970 - 148 1962 - 57 1971 - 136 1963 50 1972 140 1%4 - 92 1973 - no figures available 19G5 - 108 1974 - 230 19GG - 128 1975 to December 5 - 334 19G7 - 149 It should be noted that these figures include nurses from the U.S.!\. and other parts of Canada. 410 IIONOURAI3LE MR.

SMALLWOOD (Twillingate) - To ask the Honourable ~linister of Health to lay upon the Table the following information:- Docs the Government take what they believe to be adequate steps to satisfy themselves as to the qualification of pharmacists to practice the profession of pharmacy, or do they leave the question of such qualification to the Association of Pharmacists? 1\NS\vER - Qualification of Pharmacists is left to the course of study prescribed by the Pharmaceutical Association in accordance with the Newfoundland Pharmaceutical Association Act.

The present course of study is of three years duration, taught at the College of Trades and Technology. This programme is overseen by a Pharmacy 1\dvisory Committee. The Department of llealth has repr"sentation on this Committee (as does the Department of l"ducation) . 1271

llecember 10 , 1975 Tape no. 508 Page 5 €634 MR . MOORES (Carbonear l - To as k the ~1inister of Health the estimated total cost of the completion of the Carbo near Regi o na l Hospital and the expected date of its opening . ANSWER: Estimated c os t t o c ompletio n $13 , 3 00,0 00 Ex pected date o f opening April 1 , 1976 MR. SMALLWOOD: May I ask the minililter, is it the prQ.ctice - I have to ask, because I do not know, having been away from this House for awhile - is it the practice to publish these answers in the Hansard of the day on which they ar.e given? The answers are published,are they, in the .

Bansard for the day? AN HON. MEMBER: They do appear as an appendix in the Hansard. MR. SMALLWOOD: U1at day, good. MR • COLLINS : They do appear as an appendiX in the Hansard of Mr. Speaker, I would presume that if · I read the answers, they would appear in the Hansard, but if they are not, they would appear as an appendix. SOME RON. MEMBERS: They are ·tabled. MR. SPEAKER: they are tabled. Tabled answers appear in llaJi.sard of the date on which The hon. Minister of M~nicipal Affairs. 1272

Oecember 10 , 1975 Tape no. 508 Page ;l.r. Peckford: I wJ.sh to table the answers to the follOWing questions: QUESTION NO. 455 BY MR. DAWE (~()In' DE GRAVE) ORDERS OF THE DAY DATED 24TH NOVEMBER, 1975 MR. DAWE (PORI' DE GRAVE): To ask the Honourab.le the Minister of. Municipal Affairs and Housing to lay upon the Table of the House the following information: QUEPTION How many persons reside in communities that have no form of local municipal organization? ANSWER Number of persons living in unincorporated areas 11?,000- QUESTION NO . 456 BY MR. DAW£ (PORT DE GRAVE) ORDERS OF THE DAY DATED 24th NOVE~lBER, 1975 6 MR.

DAWE (PO:RT DE GRAVE) : To ask the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing to lay upon the Table of the House ·the following iufonnation.: QUESTION How many organized municipalities have town managers or officers of other titles but doing the general wor~ of town managers; and the total population of S·Uch municipalities? ANSWER Eighty (80) municipalities have Town Managers or full time administrative employees who carry out the functions performed by a Town Manager. The total pop .ulation of these, including the City of Corner Brook, is 212,400. 1273

necember 10, 1975 Tape 509 IB-1 ~ . SP F~KF. R : The hon. ~inister of Transportation and Co~unications. liT' . 'ORC.Al'l: ~~r. Speaker, in response to a question on the Order Paper of November 24, ~uestion no. 448 placed by the hon. member for Twillingate (~1r. Smallwood), I wish to table the answer and point out that there are now only six communities in the Province with a population of over 1,000 that do not now have a paved main street. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!

ANSWER TO QUESTION #448 ASKED BY THE HONOURABLE MEMBER OF TWILLINGATE DIRECTED TO THE HONOURAULE THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION AND COMMUN­ ICATIONS APPEARING ON ORDER PAPER OF NOVEMBER 24, 1975 The following is a list of names of settlements in the F'Jrovince h&Ving a population of lOOD or more whose main street is paved an.rl unpaved:­ PAVED ~r Baie Verte . ..,. Bay Roberts Bishop's Falls Bona vista Botwood Torbay Bunn Carbo near Catalina Channel - Port Aux Basques Clarenville Deer Lake Du mi lle Fogo Fortune Freshwater, P.

Bay Gander Glovertown Grand Bank Happy Valley - Goose Bay Harbour Breton Harbour Grace Ha re Bay, B. Bay Holyrood Jerseys ide Lawn Le\ ·~porte M• town ~ Pearl Placentia Pouch Cove Robert's Arm St. /\lban's St. Anthony St . George's St. Lawrence Spaniard's Bay Springdale Stephenville Stephenville Crossing 1274 Trepassey Twilligate Upper Island Cove Wabana ~les 1 eyvi 11 e Whitbourne Windsor Dark Cove Isle Aux Morts Kippens Labrador City La Sci e \~abush Bay Bulls Benoit's Cove Buchan's Churchill Falls Victoria Kelligrews Kilbride Long Pond, C.

Bay Manuels Portuqal Cove UNPAVED Eng lee Norris Arm Ramea Roddickton Hampton Burg eo

Dece~her 10, 1075 Tape 509 ORAL QUESTIONS: ~lP • SPEAKER : The hon. member for LaPoile O~r. Neary). 1-''P. NEARY: I ~·auld liJre to put a question to the }'inister of Real th, Sir. l~ould the Yinister of Health tell the Pause what will happen :In the event that the workers at the Waterford Hospital go on strike in a weekk time? noes the government have any alternative plans to deal w:!.th this situation? ~~- SPEAKEP: Orne~, please! I should point out that the question as asken is hypothetical and I am therefore required to point that out to the hen. member. Mll.

NEARY: Vould the minister inform the House if negotiations are onp,ni.np, with the employees of the 1-Taterford Hospital to try to avo:l.rl ~ strike at that hospital, thus creating an emergency? ''1'. SPEAKET': The bon. t'inister of Health. "lt. COLLINS: 1'r. Speaker, as the hen. member knows those negotiations are with Treasury Board.

To allay any fears which he might have I can say that l<e are ir constant contact and touch with the hespital hoards, and I arn sure that the hospital boards, Sir, will be in a position to taJre 1~hatever precautions are necessary in the event that they are needed. ''1' . ~PP.AKEP: The hon. member for LaPoile (l'r. Neary) . ~"' NE!Il'Y: Mr. ~peaker, I have a question for the Min:l.ster of Justice, ~ i r. l~oul d the min:!.ster inform the House whether or not the Province currently has a n:lrector of public prosecutions? ' 'n. SPEAKF.l': ~m. RIOOfAN: The hon. Jlfi.nister of Just ice. No, ~r. Speaker. >'1'.

Nl':APY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. loloulc1 the minister :Indicate tJhen the government will make an appointment to this important position? I'll. SPEAKER: 'T'l,e hon. "inister of Justice. JUCJO'IAN: ~·r. Speaker, if it had not been for the postal strike suspect an appointment would have been made by now. Advertisements were carried in the local press in, I think, October, and in The Globe and Mail Rnd other mainland papers. l•le have received telephone calls from highly 1275

Tlecember 10, 1975 '(!' • II I CIO'AN : Tape 509 IB-:6 qu"'lified lawyers outside the Province, none from within, indicating their intention to submit a formal application as soon as the ~~il $trike ~~as ove·r. It was dec :I ded then to wait until the end of this month before l'!akinJ! a f:l,naJ decision to ensure that anyone who wished to apply by maD would have an opportunity so to do. I would hope therefore that t he appointment wil be made early in January of next year. ~!R.

NEARY: A supp ementary question, Sir: Hould t he minister indicate if the former gentleman who held the position of public prosecutions in this Province resigned or was asked to terminate b~s services? IP. , HICKMAN: ~'r. Speaker, in deference to the very learned gentleman to whom the hon. member for LaPoile (Jo!r. Neary) re f ers ,so that there ~an be no ~isun~erstan~ing, he resigned, he was not asked to resign . I expresser! my egret to him that he was so resigning.

Re now ha.s taken on a very important position with the Attorney General's department of ~lberta ouite sim:ll~T to the one that he left here . '1'1' • NEARY : Mr. Speake<, a supplementary. Would the l!rln:f..ster tmdertake to table P<. r.onnor's letter of resignation? MP.. RICK¥.1\N : ~o, Mr. Speaker, I .most assuredly will not, 1276

December 10, 1975 Tape No. 510 Nf-1'- 1 ~. SPF.AKE~ The hon. member for Exploits. ~m. }q~R00NEY: f-l'r. Speaker, a queation to the hon. Premier. Would the Premier state whether or not he and the bon. members of the caucus h<ts ever considered separating Forestry and Agriculture, placin~ a grP.ater emphasis on agriculture in the Newfoundland economy? MR. SPP.AKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: '"r. Speaker, since the administration of justice in this Province, Sir, in the light of the remarks of the Chief Justice of Cannda appears to have fallen under a cloud - MR. SPF.AKEI'I Order, please!

Order, please! The bon. gentleman is entering into debate. I direct him to ask a question. ~. NEAl'.!_: l.Jell, Sir, would the Minister of Justice state to the House precisely what was done to secure depositions in connection with getting an ex-Newfoundlander from the United States to Newfoundland, to Canada - MP. SPF.AKF.R: Order, please! My understanding is the matt e r being re fe r r ed to by the hon. member is a matter sub judie~ and although in a different jurisdiction, it is sub judice and I would consider the question to bP. out of order. MF. NEARY: The procedure, Sir, is before the court, Your Honour.

The procedure thnt I am - ''R. SPEAKER.: Order, please! Order, please! I have made a ruling that in my opinion this is a matter being sub judice,and therefore out of order. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, could I ask the Minister of Justice to tell the Rouse, Sir - ~. CROSBIE: Order, order, order. MR. NEARY: I am perfectly in order if the Minister of Mines and Energy would just restrain himself - What procedure is used, Sir, what procedure s used by the Department of Justice is securing depositions in cases involving extradition procedures? ~'R. SPEAKER: ~. HICK.~AN: Mr. Speaker. The bon.

Yinister of Justice. ih ~ nrocP J ore is ns laid down in the Criminal Code of Canada, 1277

December 10, 1975 Tape No. 510 NM- 2 ¥.R. SPFAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not see the Minister of Social Services. In the absence of the Minister of Social Services, perhaps the Premier could tell us what is going to happen at Exon H~usel Are negotiations going to continue with the employees to try to avoid a strike and create an emergency in that institution. ~IR. SPEAKER : The hon. Premier. P~ER MOORES: ~·r.

Speaker, Treasury Bna r d are havi n ~ negotiations, as they always do with these groups and to bring up hypothetical situations of what could happen I think is totally irresponsible. SOME HON. ME~ERS: Hear! Hear: MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, is it totally irresponsible to ask the Premier - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I must point out that the wording of the question would be out of order. It is a debating manner of wording a question. ~IR. NEARY: 1-'r. Speaker, I just want to ask the Premier if he has yet taken a decision 1 if the Premier has- MR.

CR0!;8IE: Order. Order. "P. NEARY: - ham and eggs - SrH·'E HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! HR. NEARY: - the Premier has yet taken a iecision in connection with trr visual arts people in this Province who do not want to be placed under government control1 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, I think it is fair bo say at this time we have met with several of the people who were interested in this, both frnm the university and from the arts community as well as the department < nyself and the final position has not been taken but negotiations azd discussions are going on during this time since this was made public before, and hopefully within the next few days the positi<>n of the government and the. department will be absolutely clarified. 1278

December 10, 197 5 Tape No. 510 NM - 3 NR . SPEAKF.R: The hon. membe r for LaPo ile. MR . NF.ARY: A question for the ~lini ster of Educat i on, Si r. Would the linis t e r o f Education t e l l us the precise status at the moment of t he prqpos ed rl:'si riP-nce" fo r Rturi nt" a t tendi ng he- C:ollege o f Trad es and Tr.chnol otzy? ~'R . SPF.AKF:R: The bon. t!inister of Educat i on. MR . l:lOUS E: That question came up yesterday and I a111 trying to p;et the answer to i ·t and I have not got that aa yet. I will be bringing it before the House in a few days. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. ~ffi .

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. Would the lllinister inform the House, Sir, what action his govern111ent have taken on a request to try to eliminate or control pollution that comes down l!.ennies River and Virginia Wat.ers, presently going into Quidi V:Ldi Lake, what action the minister has taken on this matter? 1279

December 10, 1975. Tape 511 RH - 1 11R • S Pl'.tiKER : The hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and the EKvironment. HON. A. UURPHY: Quite frankly, I do not know. I have not seen the matter arise within the department or heard of it but I will certainly check it out and see what the story is on it for the bon. member. MR. SPEAKER: !'ffi. NEARY: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~aybe I put the question to the wrong minister. Maybe it is the Minister of }lunicipal Affairs that I should have put the question. Yes, the minister nods his head and says yes.

Would the Minister of }funicipal Affairs tell us if he has taken any action on a request to control pollution that is coming down Rennies River and Virginia Waters pouring into Quidi Vidi Lake; if he has had a request from the city of St. John's? Now that the shoreline of the lake is been cleaned up, has the minis~er had a request to get rid of the pollution that is coming down Rennies River and Virginia Waters? r·!R. SPEAICBR : The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HON. B. PECKFORD: To my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, the question,! do not think, or the problem would not come under my jurisdiction. HR.

NEARY: Municipal Affairs is what they said. ~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: A question to the Minister of Recreation, Mr. Speaker. 'loes the austerity programme,for the want of a better term, the cutbacks in S?ending, will this affect the announced policy of the Department of Recreation to subsidize by 75 per cent the cost of electrical power or electricity used hy stadiums, recreation, any facilities operated hy recreation conunissions in Ne~qfoundland1 I understand that .policy was supposed to be effective April, 1976. l!R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio.

IIR. lfflLLS; Or this policy, the sports policy and programme of the overnment, some of these things are going to have to be deferred,like ~apital expenditures. But on this matter government has not yet made a 1280

Deceml-,er Fl, 1975. Tape 511 RH - 2 nec:lsion for the coming year as to what is going to happen. A decision will be made and,of course,communicated to the persons concerned. MR • SPEAKER: I think the hon. member has a supple~entary. HR. PLIGHT: Hell, it is a supplementary. The policy has been announced, ~lr. ~linister, and now what you are saying - is your answer that the rovernment is now decidin~ whether or not they will go ahead and follow the policy that has been announced or whether they, indeed,they might change it? MR. HELLS: This is correct. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for J.aPoile. ~. NF.ARY: Mr.

Speaker, in connection with my question to the Minister of Justice, ~ir, about depositions: I am dissatisfied with the answer the minister p,ave me and I want to debate it tomorrow afternoon at the late show. AN HON • HEl'ffiER : It is too late. HR. NEARY: No, it is not too late. Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Minister of Health, Sir.

Would the minister inform the House if the Assistant Deputy Minister of Health has yet completed his investigation into statements madP hy Doctor Fernandez, I think it was, and another doctor over at the Hedical College concerning the way that certain druggists are dispensing rlr"'"'R in this "Province? U so, would the minister undertake to table all correspondence, reports and results of investigations into this matter in this hon. House? '·lli . SPEAKFR : The hon. ¥inister of Health. nnN. H. r.rn,LINS: Mr.

Speaker, 1 will certainly undertake to report to thE' House on the outcome of the investigation when it is completed. tm. NEARY: Tl/ou1 cl the minister table the correspondence between Doctor F· ·nande?. and the Assistant Deputy Minister of Health? rOLLINS: That will be considered. MR. NI'.ARY: Hr. Speaker, I 'mnder if the hon. the Premier could tell the Fouse how manv Deputy Ministers and other hip.h government officials 1281

Tape 511 RR - 3 in redundant po~itions are now being naid full salaries while they are waitin~ for their pensions to arrive? PRDflE~ "!-IOOIU'S: T w:l.ll take notice of the qucstl on, 1-'t. Speaker . ....:_.fR. SPF.A KRR : The hon . member for LaPoile • 'IR. Nf'.ARY: Hr. Speaker, I wonder Lf the Minister of Agriculture and Pores try, Sir, could tell us if his departtnent has become involved in the outbreak , the epidemic of distemper amon~st the do~ pop\llati on in St . John's, if hi.s departlllent has become involved and Lf tl·ey are helping out in this situation in any way? ~IR .

Sl'.F.AKER: The non . tlinister of Forestry and Agriculture. liON. J. ROUSSEAU: ~!r. S'peaker, I am sure a veteri.nary service of the department would be available to any outbreaks such as this to assist if reouesterl anti I am sure they will. MR. SPEAKER: The ~on. member for Burin-Placentia, I helieve, has been endeavourin~ to get the Chair's attention . 1{11 • P • CA~IN1NG : A question for the hon. Premier . Would the bon.

Premier tell the l!OIJSe if there are no other contracts acquired bv the shipyarrl at ''arvstown hy the end of December, will his ~>.ove rnment consider constructin~ stern draggers for sale or lease to the fresh fish operators of Ne1~foundlanrl or any other Province? 1-1111 he consider the construction? !__; • SPRAKER : The hon . Premier. 1282

Dcc~mber 10, )Q]). 'rape 512 RH - 1 rRnHER MOORF.S: }!ell, )1r. Spl"aker, the anst~er to that quest1 on is yes. l·Je 1vill altvayR consider •mat needs to be done, and I think it is very important thAt 11e do all that we can in a meaningful and material way tn m1.1ke sun~ t"tat the shipyard 11.t ~<arystmm is occupied and as busy as possible. Yes is the answer. Hll. • ST'FAT<fl' : ~Ill. NF.ARY: Tl1e hon·. memher for LaPoile. '·'r.

Sneoaker, ~rou] d the '1inister of Provincial Affairs and Fnvj t"nnment, Sit", inform the House what action hiR department or the ~overnment hAve taken on serious charges ann accusations and statements m<1de in this hon. House in connection with the F.RCO phosphorus plant at Long Harbour destroying the countryside, the statements made by the member for St. John's East and the member for Trinity North1 What action has been taken on these statements? MR. SPFAKER: The han. Minister of Provincial Affairs and F.nvironment.

W1N A. t<ITRPHY: Frankly, I do not know if there is any serious action being taken with reference to the statements made by anybody in the Honse. llut 1 knmv there are ungoing checks being made and I think we are tvorking very closely "1ith the Hinister of Industrial Development on it. I do not lcnow of anvthinr: else. I did not know this member had mnde statements on it,really,hecause I was not in the House at that time. !'-P. • SPF.A KF.ll. : The hon. member for Naskaupi. • n .J. GOUDIP:: M'r. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the ~.on. t1inister of Transportation and Communications.

Would the hon. minister please inform the House the status of negotiations at the moment for an airstrip at Cartwright? ~fR. ROBERTS: ~lr. Spealrer, on a point of order. I have no desire to block the question, I have every desire to hear the answer, but I think it does raise a neat point of order. The hon. member for Naskaupi holds the position, I believe, of Parliamentary Assistant to the Premier. I 2lieve there are rulings in Ottawa that a parliamentary secretary may not ask questions of the minister. I raise the matter on a point of order 1283

December ln, 1975. Tape 512 RH - 2 not to block the answer because I very much like to hear it, but it is the first time to my knowled~e that any Rentleman holding a position of profit under the Crown1 in that sense~has attempted to ask a question in the House. Perhaps we should have a ruling on it and have the matter set at rest for once and for all. MR . SPEAKER : The hon. minister. MR. WELLS: To the point of order, Sir. It is correct as of my under­ standing of what is done in Ottawa. But at the same time, Mr.

Sneaker, 1 do not think there has been any restriction whatsoever in our House by custom on members \roo are not members of the Cabinet asking questions of this sort of a minister. MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, if I may say another word. Our rules are silent, but to my knmdedge there has never been a question asked by any member holding a position of Parliamentary Assistant or Secretary to the Premier. I would submit in that case according to our Standing Order number (1) we should look to the Ottawa practice and precedent.

But in any event '~hatever the matter - Your Honour may wish to take the matter under advisement and give us a ruling later. I merely raise it so we will have it settled because in my years in the House there has never been a question, a matter of a Parliamentary Assistant raising a question ~ddressed to the minister. IR • SPEAKER : With reference to the point of order raised by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, I do in fact wish to reserve judgment.

I recall that in some decisions of the Speaker in Ottawa the question has come up with respect to two matters, Here we are only dealing with one, that is parliamentary secretaries asking questions 1 and then there have also been disputes with respect to parliamentary secretaries answering them. Mv memory - I am not sure what the ruling was and it is fairly important one. I would wish to check it with accuracy and bearing in mind as well ur own Standing Orders which are silent on it, our own precedent,which ·rould have to be checked, and also the practice in the House of Commons.

So I would therefore reserve judgment on that matter and I would put it to the House without prejudice to that judgment, put it to the House 1284

necnmber 10, 1~75. Tape 512 RR - 3 whether the fll"uSe wish es the hon. p.entleman to have leave to ask the nnl!st1.on but uithout pre;udice to the decision on the point of order which has been hrou~ht un. '\R . loiELT.S: I understand from my colleagues across, Mr. Speaker, that the !louse without pre1udice is preparing to take the ouestion or allow the '1Uestion. I would sav, Hr. Speaker, for your assistance in making 3 judRment on the matter that the hon . member is not a Parliamentary Assistant hut an Executive Assistant~ PRRmER HO<'RES: 1\N HON. MF..l'IBER: PRf" ITf.R •100RES: And it is done in Ottawa. An Executive Assistant always - That is ri~ht . That is right. 1285

December 10, 1975 Tape 513 IB-1 >~ . SPE ~XER : TI1e hon. gentleman's question therefore has been allowed to stand. Perhaps he wishes to repeat it because it may not be fresh in the memory of all hon. members. >m • (l()UniE : I ~~ill repeat the question, Hr. Speaker. I would 1 ike to address it to the hon. 1-'inister of Transportation and rommunicat:! om:. Hill he please inform the House the status of the airstrip at rartwr:! .r,ht? ''R. SPEAKEr>: >11>. HORGAN: The hon. ~<in:!ster of Transportation and ~ommunications. ~'r.. Speaker, the hon. gentleman beinr; quite concerned heing the MHA for a

section of Labrador, the answer to the question is that this government has called tenders for the construction of an a:!.rstdp at Cartwright. The tenders were received and the lowest tender was in the value of approximately $500,000.

Because there is a programme available, a programme with the federal level of government whereby they assist on the construction of airstrips in remote areas of our country, and particularly the Northern parts of our country whereby they ]abel them as feeder airstrips~feeding an airport, in this case Cartwright could be considered a feeder a:!.rstrip feeding the airport of r.oose, we have now requested the federal government to participate financially from this progranune they have available on the construction nf this airstrip at Cartwright.

To date, alttough the request was made over two weeks ago, to elate we have not received any acknowledgement or any indication, rather , that the federal government will participate. However, I am hoping as the 'Minister of Transportation and Co111111unications that the member for Grand Falls-White Bay representing the area of Labrador will give us every possible assistance in helping us obtain financial assistance from the federal level of povernment. ''R . SPEAKE!' : ~. ~OBEP. TS: The hon.

Leader of the Opposition, A supplementary question,which unJ!l.ke the oriJ!;inal •luest:! .on has not been concerted with the minister in advance, could the mi nister - the minister said two weeks ago they made the approach to Ottawa, to the minister in Ottawa. Is that the fir s t approach Which 1286

necemher 10, 1975 Tape 513 IB-2 has been made to a.sk Ottawa to share in this particular project? Mn. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. }W. ~O~GAN: Mr. Speaker, this p.overnrnent is continuously making representation~ to the federal level of Rovernment where there are any prnp.rammes available whereby it is possihle to obtain financial assistance. nver the past number of months we have made representations on a continuou!l basis.

Because now we are in a posit ton where we can awar~ a ten~er for the construct1.on of this airstrip, we are putting pressure on to get a reply from the federal government. }Ill. ROBERTS: A further supplementary - }"Jl • S}'ALLWOOD: That is continnRl. It is not cont:!.nuous. 1~. ~ORGAN: representation is continuous, sure. 1~. SHALL HOOD: Twenty-four hours a day! }<r,. }!ORGAN: Every day. SOME HON, }W.MBF.RS: Hear! Hear~ !'f.'. f.!OBERTS: The hon. minister -well, it would not be parliamentary to say that. The hon. member for T~•ill:!.ngate (tfr. Smallwood) has said it for me. Yr.

Speaker, a further supplementary~ Since the minister did not answer the question, would he undertake to lay on the table of the l'ouse all correspondence in which the government of this Province have asked the r.overnment of r.anacla for assistance with the construction of this airstr1.p at Cart,rright? J"ll. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications . }'f.!. ¥ORGAN: Because ~·e are now in the process of negotiating, if you ••ish, <•ith the federal rovernment, I refuse to table the contents of our negotiations at t:his time until "-'e get some reply from the federal governwent. MR.

ROBERTS: ~nether fake! '1-'P. ~PCAN: In repl y to the point made by the hon. Rentleman from Twillin~ate (¥r . Smallwood), I said continuous because to get financial assistance from the federal government it has to be continuous, night and clay. Sm'E HON. ''EMIF.PS: Hear, hear! Snt'E !l(IN. ~'P.fl' S : Oh, oh! 1287

necemher 10, 1975 Tape 513 IB-3 ~!R. l'PEAKl·:n : The hon. member for LaPoile (¥r. Neary) . YR. NEAT!Y: Yr. Speaker, would the Minister of Transportation and romrnunicaUons :lnforr1 the House, Sir, if his f!overnment h;~ve sil!!ilar plans to construct an ~ irstrip at Rurgeo? No answer? MR . ~<ORGAN : I will take notice. 1Im. NEARY: ~<r. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the ~·inister of Justice, Sir. Would the Minister of Justice inform the House who is responsible for the parking meters at St.

John's airport, who collects the revenue, wh1ch government the revenue from the parking meters poes to, the provincial or federal treasury? ~ ~. SPEAKE~ : The hon. ~:ln:lster of Justice. )m. RICKMAN: T. will have to take notice of that question, Mr. Speaker, hecause 1 11m not nuite sure off the top of my heacl. I think it is - the meters I kno~' are enforced by the collllllissionaires wbo are not employees of the Province of Newfoundland. They are rather employees, or retained by the Ministry of Transport. Hhat happens in the event of a conviction, where that fine goes, T am not certain.

If practice w:l_th other federal government operations prevails we are not likely to pet our hooks on :l.t. ~. NEARY: ~1ell, I have a few more questions for you later on wh•n T get the answers. R. SPEAKF.l!: The hon. member for Conception Ray South (Mr. Nolan). MR. NOLAN: ~~r. Speaker, a question for the ~'in:lster of '):'ransportation and Communications. l<'hat are the latest developments regarding the announcements on cable television for this Province and will the information come to the minister or ~d11 it come from the CF.Tr and when? • 1ffi.

S'P!AKEP : The hon. ' 'inister of Transportation and Communications. 1288

December 10, 1975, Tape 514, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: Mr. S~eaker, my department was informed a few days a~o by the CRTC that a decision will be made within the next few days and that my department will be advised accordingly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Mini*ter of Economic Development, if I may. He may not be able to answer or ~ive the exact details but what I am tryin~ to find out, Mr. Speaker, is would he have any record of how much money has been invested in this Province in the last twelve months.

I do not mean from government sources, federal ~overnment and so on, I am talkin~ about free enterprise dollars that mi~ht have come in here, new money, invested from whatever source out of private funds one way or another. I would appreciate such an answer, Sir. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. S~eaker, I am not aware of any possibility of ~ettin~ that kind of information. I will look at it and ask questions about it, but certainly private monies that have been spent in the Province I do not see that we would have any information of that nature. 1-fR. SPF:AKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. ------- MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementarv to that. Does not the minister a~ree that he ou~ht to know that and if he does not that he oup.ht to take steps to find out? Surely - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! In my opinion the hon. ~entleman's auestion tends to debate the previous answer. MR. SMALLWOOD: No, no. I do not want to debate, I just want to know if the minister does not consider that it is his duty as a minister to p.et that kind of information? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rural and Industrial Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman is not used to private enterprise and the lack of government control. There is an awful pile of stuff p.oing on in this Province that is not under government control. PRF.MIER MOORES: Hear, hear! MR. LUNDRIGAN: So I would like to be aware of that - MR. SMALLWOOD : This information~ This information.' 1289

December 10, 1975, Tape 514, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUNDRI!';AN: Your Honour I would like to be aware of that information. I would like to be aware of as much information as the hon. gentleman thinks he is aware of. MR. SPEAKER: This shall be the last question and answer. The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is aimed at the hon. the Premier, Sir. Would the hon. the Premier inform the House if his government have taken any action to have the proceedings of the House of Assembly televised in the foreseeable future? MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER MOORES: MR.

NEARY: PREMIER MOORES: The bon. the Premier. The answer basically, Mr. Speaker, is no. Why not1 No. Children are up during this hour of the day. This year it could be, I suppose, televised, Sir. Last year certainly, for the sake of the children of the Province. I am glad it was not. MR. SPEAKER: The Oral Question time has how transpired . ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: It being Private Member's Day we shall proceed to motion 3. As I recall - I am sorry! The hon. the member for LaPoile, as I recall he had eXPired his time last Wednesday. SOME RON. MEMBERS: He had leave. MR.

SPEAKER : Correct: Leave had been granted to continue for ten minutes. MR. NF..ARY: Right. That is ri~ht. HON. T. RICKEY: Before you call Orders of the Day, Mr. Speaker, I wanted to rise on a point of personal privilege. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of personal privilege? MR. HICKEY: Personal privilege, this being the first orrportunity I have had to read the editorial in today's paper. I will make it ~ery brief, Mr. Speaker.

I just read it and I simply want to correct a statement that is contained in this editorial which accuses me pf being dishonest both inside and outside the House in relation to a government project. I simply want to state that I have not,with regards to this project or any other project,been dishonest. I have never given 1290

Decembe~ 10. 1Q75, Tane 514, Page 3 -- apb anv answ~rs other than honest answers. I understand the views and feelings of this gentleman who writes this editorial. T have been the snhiect of this kind of yellow ,1ournalism from this p,entleman for some tjme. J bear no grudge against him, Mr. Speaker, except to say that T deeply Pity him. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROJ\ERTS: Mr. Sneaker, I do not know if I need to say very much except it is obvious it is no point of privilege.

It is also, T think, fair to say that while the hon. gentleman may have not seen the paper hefor~ this it has been in circulation since at least three o'clock In the House, and a number of hon. gentlemen have seen the editorial. And l<>t me just add that the hon. gentleman does not need to convince us of his honesty. His conduct speaks for itself, and J me<tn th<tt rruit!' sincerely. But J admit there is no point of privilege i.n th~ editorial to which the hon. gentleman refers. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

With respect to the point of privilege raised by the hon. minister, it sometimes happens that an hon. member will get up on a point of nrivilepe in order to, in fact, make what is referred to as an explanation or something of that category. That hapnens quite frcqnE'ntly. lf it is in the strict sense of the point of privilege that the hon. ~rntleman was ~ettinr, un then obviously there arE' certain nrocedur es to he- follm.red.

Am I right in gauging the hon. gentleman's lntention of usinf': the O!"l'Ortunity of rising on a noint of privilege to in f<tct make ~n exnlanatinn and to give his views on a matter rE'corded in a nE'WSnaper? Am I correct in that asstnntion? '-IR. HlCKF.Y: Mr. Speaker, T simnlv rose and took the opportunity to denv the <tccusation that is madE' against me. '!'hat was all. MR. SPEAKF~: '!'hank you. Then t am correct in that assumotion. Motion 3. MR. ~EARY: Mr. Speaker, I c~n wind un my remarks now in very ~hort order. Sir. I want to say again, repeat what I said eRrlier in the debate 1291

December 10, 1975, Tape 515, Pa~e 1 -- apb that no doubt the resolution was placed on the Order ¥aper by the - MR. F.B.ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. F.B.ROWF.: Mr. Speaker, just on a point of order, if I may, Point of order? I understand that the hon. the member for LaPoile time had expired and he was not to my knowledge granted leave by the House to continue. MR. SPEAKER: I believe, in fact, he was. MR.

F.B.ROWE: Well, Sir, we would like certainly to have some clarification as to what the limitations are with respect to time because we are settinp. a precedent here in this particular case and every member can get up and speak. MR. NEARY: Ten minutes. Ten minutes. MR. F. B. ROWE: - five, ten or fifteen minutes. Can we agree to a time and, Sir, is this to be the case for every member who wishes to continue on? MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: I recall that at six o'clock the hon. gentleman was about to take his seat and,I think,suggested that he was going to move the adjournment,in which case I said that time had expired, I believe it was then the government House Leader who su~gested he could continue with leave. I think the question came up as to the amount of time and it was agreed that he would have '?ave to continue for ten minutes. "R. NEARY: That is right. That is right, Your Honour. I probably will not take the ten minutes, Your Honour.

I just want to summarize what I had said earlier in the debate last Wednesday ,that no doubt the Leader of the Opposition when he put the resolution, Sir, before the House on the Order Paper, that his intentions were honourable and that he felt that this was a positive way in which to deal with this very important matter of how the development of this Province should ~roceed. But I may point out to the bon, House, Sir, that in mv opinion this is not the way to get at the problem. I think, Mr.

Speaker, if we proceeded along the lines suggested by the Leader of the Opposition that what we would have, Sir, is a select committee going about the Province holding public hearings and giving every crackpot and every 1292

December 10, 1975, Pa~e 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: misfit and every weirdo in this Province an OPPOrtunity to come down and ~et whatever he has on his chest, to get it off his mind, and the select committee will not get at the ordinary Newfoundlander, in my opinion 1and this was the whole purpose of it, to give the ordinary hard working Newfoundlander a chance to express his views on how the development of this Province should proceed in the next five or ten years. Mr.

Speaker, I think what out people should have is an opportunity to submit their views 1 but not through this means of a select committee which would be very expensive and time-consuming. The ordinary Newfoundalnder, Sir, should have an opportunity to submit his views through surveys and polls,similar, Sir, to what haprens in the case of Ayre and Sons or Bowrin~s. If they want to test the market, if they want to do a survey on marketing conditions and get information on marketin~, they send out surveys and in this wav they get the essential information that they reQuire in order to market a certain product.

Well, Sir, if the sponsor of the resolution, the Leader of the Oprosition, really was interested in findin~ out the real wants and the real needs of our people he would not have suggested holding an exrensive and time-consuming hearingslbut would have suggested instead, Sir, that a comprehensive survey be undertaken by the vast number of students that we have attending the College of Trades and Technology and ~lemorial llniversity, especially those who are attend in~ the, for instance, sc.hool of husiness, I think it is called, over 1293

necember 10, 1975 Tape No. 516 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: at Memorial University. They could, Sir, these students could take on this job as one of their main projects and besides the students getting invaluable •xperience, Sir, the Province would be getting very, very badly needed, valuable information and maybe then the members themselves ~ould be able to focus attention on the real wants and the real needs of the ordinary Newfoundlander. Apparently, Mr.

Speaker, from what I can gather, the school of business, the students who were attending administration and business courses have already undertaken surveys of this kind _ that have been of tremendous benefit to the various authorities, to business and industry and to government itself in this Province. They have been doing it now for the past few years and they have been doing it, as I say,Sir, with a great deal of success. And this would involve no cost whatsoever, Sir, to the Province apart from a few stamps, a bit of stationary and a few envelopes.

It would be a very, very worthwhile project indeed, Sir, and I wish that I could move an amendment to the resolution,but I stand here alone and I do not have a seconder. I cannot caucus with my member and produce a seconder for ~ amendment. I wish I could, I would move an amendment, Sir, because I think this is the way - ~'R. MURPHY: Now \Oho would it be1 ---- -- MR.

NEARY: Well,! would like to move an amendment to the resolution that instead of proceeding along the lines suggested by the Leader of the Opposition that we ask the school of business and the business administration students at the College of Trades and Technology to conduct a survey of Newfoundland to find out what the real needs and wants of the people of this Province are. Mr. Speaker, this indeed would be a forward step in my opinion. Alf HC'N, :ME~ER: Do you have unlimited time? Ml'. NEARY: No. No unlimited time. You do not get unlimited time by ng that sort of an amendment.

You just get another forty-five minutes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. NEARY: I am going to ~ind up now by saying, Sir, that we in this House, 1294

December 10, 1975 Tape No. 516 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: we are already, if we are doing our job, we should know the real wants and needs of the people . We should not need a s elect committee to go around the Province. We ourselves, Sir, if we do not know now the real wants and needs of the people of this Province, we are not fit to sit as members of this hon. House. And I would suggest that apart from the students in the university, in the r.ollege of Trades conducting a survey, . that all the M.H.A. 's i n this hon.

House might consider it very worthwhile,as a condition of his membership in ths House, to constantly and continuously poll and survey his constituents to find out what their real needs and their real wants are, and what the views of his constituents are on certain major issues. So, Sir, if the X.ll.A . 's .. and I have heard them in this hon.

House in var1ous debates, the Budget Speech debate, the Throne Speech debate do'vn through the years, they got up and they pretend 1and I have no reason to doubt them, they pretend that they know all about the real needs and <Jants of their districts and they get up and tell the government, why do you not do this and this and do this? Well, Sir, are they really cxpress:l .ng the views of the people they represent or are they foisting their o~~ views on the people of this Province?

If they are expressing t' 0 real wants and needs of their constituents then it is only a matter of taking , 11 the !i;msar ds for the last ten vears and turn them over to a group of students and let them go through Hansard and you will come up, Sir, with a master plan ror the future development of this Province. Have someone go through the Ransards, pull out the ideas and put them all together and then do something about these ideas and suggestions because there is where the problem is, Sir. We have the ideas. We have the master plan.

Fifty-one of us here kno~1 what, or we are supposed to know what the future development n f this Province, what course it should take. All we have to do now, Sir, roll up our sleeves, get down to brass tacks, we have the master plan and do somethin~ about the future development of this Province instead of wasting t:l.me studving and talking about it, 1295

December 1n, 1975. Tape 517 RH - 1 HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of }lines and Energy. liON. J. CROSBIE: }lr. Speaker, this is the first opportunity I have had to speak in the new session of the hon. House of Assembly. SOME liON. }ffi}ffiERS: Hear! Hear! MR. CROSBIE: Thank you. Mr. Speaker, I have not been unknown for participating in the debates in this House but Rt this session I have not really felt much inclination to take much of a part because there is an awful lot - and I am a bit tired of it - of playacting in conneetion with proceedings in this han. House of Assembly.

This Province is now in a serious situation which requires the best of all of us and the less playacting there is the better. In addition, Mr. Speaker, I have not had the chance to be here because I was away on other matters that have to do with the prospects for Newfoundland. It is just as well to face the facts, that the prospects for Newfoundland are not very bright ones unless some hard,deterrnined work can change what seems to be the prospects that lie before us. Now the suggestion by the hon.

Leader of the Opposition on this resolution that there should be a select committee to examine our economic prospects and the like is a device to bring this before the House for debate. He does not seriously, I am sure, consider that the appointment of a select committee of the members of this House would be of much real vnlue. We have had royal commissions. We had a ltoyal Commission on economic prospects. It was appointed in the days when the hon. statesman from Twillingate was the Premier of the Province. That commission spent about eighteen months studying all the prospects for Newfoundland.

Reallv its report was not one that was too optimistic and it was critical of certain approaches that the then government had taken. We could have another royal commission but it will not tell us anything more than we ~now now, that anyone who has been in the government knows or anyone that riously looks at the situation knows. What are the prospects for development in this Province? I remember speaking about them during the election campaign. There are only five. One prospect is can we develop the hydro energy of Labrador so that it means something to the development of this Province and to ~.abrader.

Or if we have to export it from the 1296

Tape 517 RH - 2 HR. CROSRIE: Province, can it return us some decent kind of economic rent that will p,ive us some money to do something •vith in the rest of the Province generally. That is one prospect. He have seen from the statement that I made ten or twelve days ago how difficult that road is going to he. It will not be accomplished unless Ne p,et ma;or surport from the Government of Cat~ada and unless we get the co-operation of the Province of Ouehec, ~Thich we can hope for, but whether it really materializes or not only the next year will tell. That is one road.

If ~ve cannot go that road, if tve have to go the other. road•ancl this is going to he debated in the House so I will not speak much on it today. Next Monday, I think, we are hoping to debate the resolution on the hydro - but if we cannot go that road and we have to go the steam nuclear road, to my mind we are going to, we are taking thP route that says Newfoundland can never be a great Province, Newfoundland can never stanrl on its own feet, Newfoundland ia always and forever destined to he a recipient of handouts from Ottawa.

That is the route we p,o if the Gull Island gamble does not succeed in my mind. ~hat is the second prospect of the five? It is oil and gas. It is the oil and p.as that we are sure lie off the shores, particularly of La'brador and possibly off the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland. The most prospective area lies off Labrador. It is the most difficult area in th~ world so far encountered for exploring and then developing oil or r-~s prospects. So we have to face that fact that when it is found it is going to be t~e most expensive, far more expensive than the North Sea to develop. l~e know the gas is there.

We are not sure yet whether oil is there. Rut the oil and gas that lies off Labrador, the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland is another great prospect for this Province if we own and control the development of that resource. If we do not own and control it, if it is the Government of Canada that owns and controls it and decides it, then the development of that and the main benefit of it will go to other parts of Canada. It Will not go to Newfoundland. We will never get much out of the oil and gas off our shores. 1-le will get 1297

Dece~her 10, 1975. ~~. C:ROSIHf: Tape 517 1U! - 3 some money if Ottawa controls it. They have agreed they will 2ive us, they have agree d they will give the Provinces - I will not give the exact figure but let us say it is between two-thirds and three quarters of what revenue would come from it. But they would be deciding how much revenue there is going to be . They would be deciding the pace of the development. They would he deciding what the royaltiP.s will be. They will be deciding all the Factors in connection 1~ith it.

We will not be ~~1~ to say, you must employ Newfoundlanders, or, you must use Newfound­ land goods and services, or, you must bring it ashore to Newfoundland and Lahrndor . l~e will have none of those power s if Ottawa has constitutional - the property ownership of the oil and gas that lies off our shores . 1298

December 10, 1975 Mr. Crosbie. Tape no. 518 Page 1 - mw l1r. Speaker, they are not prepared -and this, I know, will be debated on other occasions -they are not prepared to grant the Province of Newfoundland in our negotiations for a settlement of that issue any control over any aspect of the development of the oil and gas that may lie off our shores .

They say that we can have an advisory role, an advisory role only, and we have said, "No, we will not accept any agreement or compromise with you that gives us nothing but an advisory role and what happens in the oil and gas development off Labrador and the Province of Newfoundland." Therefore it very likely that the issue must go to the Supreme Court of Canada or some judicial body to be decided. So that is the oil and gas.

But in any event even i! the oil and gas is there, it is shown to be there next year, and it is feasible to develop it in sufficient quantities, to make it economically feasible to develop, it would be in the case of oil, at least, eight or nine years, and in the case of gas, at least, ten years before it means anything really to the Province, before it is developed and brings us any real revenue. That is eight to ten years. That is a long time for a Province, Mr, Speaker, that is in our precarious economic and financial position.

That is the one main chance we have for any substantial amount of revenue to come to the government of N ~wfoundland. Other than that we got the forestry. We got Bowaters and PricC', we have Labrador Linerboard. I regret greatly, Mr. Speaker, some statements that have been made by the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. statesman from Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) over in the Stephenville area a week or ten days ago about the linerboard mill and the management of the linerboard mill, you know, inferring or stating that they were incompetent, and there was a scandal, and they were not managing it properly and so on and so forth, The management of that mill are not geniUses - MR. ~LLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, to a point of personal privilege. I have not been over in Stephenville or in that area. MR. CROSBIE: This was on the radio. I do not want to make an issue of it, Mr. Speaker, but I can show the hon, gentleman a transcript of an 1299

December 10, 1975 Mr. Crosbie. Tape no. 518 Page 2 - mw interview he had with the radio station in Sephenville.

The Linerboard mill project, the management of that project, I do not claim that they are geniuses,or that they are the best management in the world,or that they a~e the best in the world in that industry,or that they have not made mistakes before, because they have, and they will continue to do so, but there is not a management of any project or any mill anywhere in the world that has ever faced the problems that faced the management and have faced the management of Labrador Linerboard mill over the last three or four years.

I am getting tired of hearing from my colleagues and hearing from other people how expensive Labrador Linerboard is,and how much it is costing the Province, and what a burden it is to us, because there is nothing new in that, Mr. Speaker. T hope there will be an opportunity to debate Labrador Linerboard in this session. I have a lot of information prepared on it. When I spoke in this House in 1972 and in 1973 in detail on Labrador Linerboard, I said then, and I say now, it can never be economically feasible.

And I said then and I say now that it will always cost, it will always have to be assisted by the people of this Province, through the gover3ment, if it is to continue operating, because It has got the most abominable wood costs of any mill anywhere in the world. That ·; not the fault of Labrador Linerboard Limited. That is the fault of the iginal planning that went in it. That really means that it should nev•'i' have been commenced, that construction should never have started, because it 1s an economic impossibility from the start. But when this government assumed office, Mr.

Speaker, if we had not taken over Canadian Javelin • wo • d have bankrupted itself, and I will not go into all the reasons. We sav· d them,really. They m>e us a debt of gratitude, Canadian Javelin Limited, for taking that project over, but it would never have been finished had we nol It would never have been finished.

We would have lost ' $130 million t• ) million and would have had nothing there for it, and it has cost us considerable money in the last three years to operate it, including $28 million from the estimates this year, because there is no way it can operate itself and generate enough cash to pay the principal and interest on the debt and 1300

December 10 , 1975 Mr. Crosbie. Tape no. 518 Page 3 to meet these fantastic wood costs. We cannot sell - the hon . statesman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) said somewhere recently, in the House here, that the mill should be sold , lile should find someone to Rell it to and to take it over. There is not a person in the world will pay us .. 1301

December 10, 1975 MR. CROSBIE: Tape 519 IB-1 one dollar to take it over,because they could not operate it and ~ke money even at a dollar because it has no assured supply of wood. We cannot assure anyone that if they produce 300,000 tons of linerboard at that mil] next year, that they can set 600,000 cords of wood in this Province to operate it with. The wood is not there. We have not got sufficient lvood on the Island of Newfoundland plus what we can get from Labrador to operate that mill at capacity at the mom.ent. So, who is going to buy it or operate it?

It has got the highest wood costs of any mill in the world. To get the wood down from Labrador to cut it an~ transport it on to Stephenville costs in excess of eighty dollars a cord, unheard of! MR. MURPHY: What is the average? ~. CFOSBI'F:: The competing mills down in the States have wood costs of twenty-five or th:l.rty dollars a cord, This one 1 to buy ~rood aroun~ the Island its average wood costs are sixty dollars a cord. I will have the exact figures - I have not got all my notes here now, Mr. Speaker, but 1 am just illustrating what our economic prospects are.

So it is because 111e want to keep the Stephenville area r,oing, and it :Is because 1.re do not want to pull the plug on the Goose Bay­ Happy Valley area that He keep the linerboard mill going. If we "'" re operating on any sane, economic principle we would stop it tomorrow, P "'oul d stop 1.t. It is the only slllnsible thing to do. 1t is the only prudent thing to do, Rut there are 2,500 people, ~r. Speaker, etther working for the linerboard mill, working in the woods for the 1 :lnerhoard or working for pttlp contractors who cut wood for Labra~or Linerhoard.

So it is costing us $28 million this year, more than that, but $28 million this House has to vote or approve. Of that I T·r:llJ have the figures "'hen this is debated properly to show - I can not remember all the exact figures now but many millions of that ~oes in wages and salaries. Another substantial part of it :l.s to pay prinicpal and interest payments on the original Javelin debt which reduces what we owe on the mill and so on. So $28 million is not the operating loss 1302

December 10, 1q75 )'J1. CT'nSBIF: of Labrador linerboarcl. Tape 519 IB-2 It is what we need to advance it for its cash floH purposes if it is to continue to operate and to pay off on its debt. ~o the economic prospects in the forest industry are not great, Mr. Speaker. You know, the wood in Labrador there i.s no way physically - ,.ye will use the figure 200,000. '-'e expect sometime to bring down 200,000 cords of wood1 to cut and deliver, 200,000 of wood from Goose Bay a year, but probably it would be more sensible to say it is going to he 150,000. ~o the rest of the wood must come from the Island.

There is not sufficient wood left on Crown lands on the Island to get the other 450,000 cords that we need. The cost of all of it is very Pxpensive. So, the wood problem, the problem of I.abrador Linerboard Limited is a problem of wood and the problem of the cost of wood. Even supposing there is inefficiency,and you could be more ruthless or you could cut corners or you could cut your costs, you could be a kilJer-diller, you could cut out 100 men over there and so on and so forth, and you save $1 million or $2 million a year, that is all you would save.

You ~10uld not be coming anywhere near the real problem of the Labrador J,inerboard J,imiterl which is the supply of wood and the cost of wood. So what more can we do in the forest ' n<lnstry except Phat we have been doing? In the last four years this govern~nt has done quite a bit to assist sawmills in establishing the Province. ~lost of them have gotten into difficulties. There is the Fayo mill out near Gander and Edgar Baird's mill out near Gander and 'R~ P11Jph is down in Bay r 'Espoir. So far I have not heard that they are in any difficulties, and I hope they are not.

There is the monstrosity up at Hawkes Eay that never did work properly but hopeful ]y now under a ne\~ arran~ement it is going to carry on and do all right. The only mill I have heard of that is really being a quiet success without any major assistance from the government is the mi.Jl at J?oddickton operated by r.hester J)awe Limited, Peter Car~ner and Frank Ryan, two of the brightest and shrewdest 1303

necember 10, 1975 ~rp . Cri'ISJHE: Tape 519 IB-3 businessmen in the country are operating in Poddickton and employing ~ lot of people anrl making money,they say. So it may be that it is not imposible to have a viable sawmill industry here. In any event a lot of money has been loaned and guaranteed for in the last three or four years. So our prospects 1304.

n~cemher 10, 1975 Tape No. 520 Nt-1 - 1 ~.!!I:..~CROSBTF.: in the forestry industry are not <1 p;reat, apart from the sa~~illtn~ prospects, and the continual battle to try to fjnd the wood and at a decent cost for Labrador Linerboard without injuring the ttm mills that now operate at Grand Falls and at Stephenville. ~R. Sr1ALT.WO(ID: 1 wonder 1 f the hon. minister would allow me to ask him a question.

What would he say if I tJere to tell him 1as I do, that the ablest and most successful businessman in this Provinrie today told me categorically, not too many weeks ago, that the management of the linerboard paper mill t~as savagely and atrociously bad, the management of it? The ablest and the most successful businessman in our Province today told me that. What would he say to that? MR. CROSBIE: ~r. Speaker, I would have to know who the gentleman was. MR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. minister knows him already. ~ffl.

CROSBIE: Then I would have to decide what weight I would give it and how much opportunity he would have to know that. I would certainly disagree with lim in any event, no matter who that gentleman might be. I think I have a shrewd guess who it is. I would say that he often says things that he does not really know all that much about. "'ll. SMALLWOOD: Not the bon. minister. ~~. CROSBIE: I have done that myself on times. No, I do not agree with t ltat, Hr. Speaker~ But even supposing that they were, that is not the central <' rohlem of Labrador Linerboard.

So the forest is - there are no ; ~ reat future prospects there, just to maintain what we have got and perhaps have a stronger sawmilling industry. Then that leaves us what - mining? - there are still some prospects in mining, and the mining industry that we have got is in fairly good shape. We never did get much revenue from them. The. new mineral taxation 1 Pgislation passed last year tdll mean we are going to get some kind of re decent, not really satisfactory revenue from the mining companies. Buchans is a case in point.

It would turn your stomach to see what American Smelting took out of Buchans in the years that they have operated there,and Price, without paying to this Province hardly anything 1305

December 10, 1975 Tape No. 520 NM - 2 MR . CRO S B l~: in taxes and employing people there at miserable wages and miserable conditions in a companv town with miserable housing, would really cause you to become a savage,you know, }'arxist. 1-fr. Speaker, to see what we put up with in this Province from American Smelting :m <l n-2 finin r, and Price and that Buchans, and for what? We did not even get from them any amount of revenue. I have forgotten, l have not got the exact figures here now, but it would just stupifv you.

One year I think they paid $87,000 in taxes and another year nothing and so on and ao forth because the eorporation Act, we have got to administer our own corporation tax, Mr. Speaker, because they are allo1-1ed to write off against our corporation tax, exploration expenses in other provinces and depreciation and so on. It is ridiculous. In the last twenty-five years the amount of revenue that we got from all the mining companies on the Island, apart from corporation tax,I think it was, amounted to $32 million, in all the years from 1949 to 1974. It is enough to make you throw up.

The mining industry has never, we have never gotten a decent share of revenue from the mining indsstry which take a non-renewable resource from Newfoundland and for whf~h we have had little in return. Well that situation is now improving. And there are prospects for more mines in Newfoundland and that is a hr lpful sign and there will be continuing progress in mining but , vou know,the prospects do not exactly mske you feel that Newfoundland can survive on the prospects of the mining industry alone, because it cannot. And tbat leaves the fishery, Well the fishery, the fishery has gone through difficult times.

But the fishery has prospects here. The pity with the fishery, and I must say, Mr. Speaker, that the year I had as Minister of Fisheries, I think i t was one of the years I most enjoyed in government. The problems are ery, very interesting. You are in touch with everybody around the land, every nook and cranny of the Island, and there are dozens of problems but they are all interesting ones and there are a lot of problems now. But for the first time the Canadian Government has been brought to the realization or made a conscious decision that the fishing 1306

December 10, 1975 Tape No. 520 NM- 3 MR. CROSBIE: industry of the East Coast of Canada has to be saved, that it was in the national intereat to protect it. That is a decision they came to about a year -ago and they, 1307

December 10, 1975. Tape 521 RR - 1 MR . CROSlliE: having come to' that conscious decision, I think it gives • the fishing industry some chance of hope of survival or becoming stronger in the future. It is going to have a lot of problems for the next three or four years because of the resource et cetero. So the fishery is something that should always have been a central element of the economic development of Newfoundland. But with due deference to the hon. statesman from Twillingate it was not a central feature of our economic ferment during the years from 1949 to 1972. MR. SPEAKER (Collins): Order, please!

I think the usual form for referring to members of the House is an hon. member,and this is the form we parliamentarians will use in the future. MR. CROSBIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, to that, Your Honour's ruling on that~ I think I prefer that to Only Living Father. I think I prefer it. In fact I prefer that neither of them be used. }ffi. MURPHY: They are all nice titles. MR. CROSIIIE: The hon. gentleman. Now, }fr. Speaker, then the fishery.

Well the fishery was not a central feature, we did not from 1949 till 1972- we have done a bit better in the years since but I am not saying there is any fantastic progress-make the fishery the centre piece of .e economic development of Newfoundland. We did not do it because the 1nadian social security system meant that we could afford to ignore it and tl1e people in control of the government of the Province and so on, feeling that the fishery was not something that could really ever give you a good or a high standard of living, went on to ~ry to develop other kinds of industry.

We were not forced like Iceland to concentrate on the fishery alone because they have got n9thing else and they are not part of any larger nation, they are not part of any larger social security structure. They have got to develop, they have got to depend only on their vn resources and they are nearly,almost all,in connection with the fisheries. ~ o they have had to develop what they can in the fishery and they have developed skills and techniques and marketing and organization far ahead 1308

December 10, 1075. ~IR. CROSTliE: Tape 521 Fll - 2 of ~1hat "e have got. ~lot>' . we can hardly abuse and attack the Government of Canada about their position on the fishery when t~e realize that the fishery was not our first priority over the years from 1949 to 1972. So t~h y should we have expected it to be the first priority or the second or the third of the Government of Canada? But at least their position now is that they have made a conscious decision that the industry has to be saved.

The fishin g industry is something that tJe have to concentrate on, the government and the House has to concentrate on,and try to improve over the next four or five, ten, fifteen and twenty years. Hut it is not goin~ to be sufficient to meet our expandin~ population. It is not going to he sufficient to make ~ewfoundland a more feasible place to live in. It is only one part of the mosaic. On the fishery, Mr. Speaker, it really annoys me, turns my guts, when I hear hon. gentlemen opposite talk, as one of them did, the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), about a scandal in the Department of Fisheries.

Hot~ many times last year did I stand in this House and say that never again would there be a Gear Replacement Programme such as was instituted in 1974 by the Federal and Provincial Governments to replace gear that was lost due to the unusual ice conditions of the Spring of 1974? How often did J say that it was a scandal how it had been abused by a minority of fi shermen?

What reaction did I get from the other side and what did I h e~ r on the radio stations and the open line programmes as some of t hem went out to try to m:! sinterpret what I had said and to say how I 1 1~ n attacked the fishermen and said they were all dishonest et cetera. There i s nothing new. The CBC acts like there is something new in this. They !lave suddenly come up on the fact that there were abuses of the Gear "E!placement Programme in 1974 and 1975.

There is nothing new in that. announced it myself a dozen times and said never again will there be a Gear ~eplacement Programme,while this government is in office 1 that pays per cent of the cost of replacing the gear, fishermen's gear. Never agai n! There ••as a shocking abuse of that programme and the programme had to be done ~uickly, an emergency. The fishermen had to have the gear to be able to go out fishing that Summer and Fall and had to be dealt 1309

fll'ccmhC'r l'l, 197<;. ~Ill.. CRCISRIE: Tape S21 FH - 3 Hith as an emergency. I~E' had about a dozen field men and the Federal r.overn~nt and another ri~hteen or twenty to lool< into thousands and thousands of claims. and everyone howling for nets immediately so they cn11ld grt out and fish and everyone else on the Island sayin~t yes, they should grt thrm imMediat ely and the rest of it. Ts there any ~·onder thrre «ere abuses of it? 1310

December 10, 1975 !'I!. Cr()_shie: Tape no. SZ2 Page But to try to use that to blacken the whole Department of Fisheries and so on as has been done is most unfortunate, and particularly when there is an investigation on so that any responsible minister 1 - 1DW can say very little about it until the investigation is completed and charges are laid . But that is an aside, Mr. Speaker.

You try to do something for the fisheries - well one of the reasons for the difficulty of the Gear Replacement Programme is you do not know who the fishermen are, and you do not have any record of what gear they own- but you should now have one, because they all have to register- and you got to replace the part-time man, the school teacher who goes fishing in the Summer, and he has lost lobster pots or he has got gill nets or whatever,or the other part-time people, they are all eligible to have their nets replaced, And a sizeable minority- it is a poor thing, Mr.

Speaker, in this Province when they are prepared to swear to a false affidavit, swear falsely to an affidavit, because they think it is coming from the government, and if it is a programme that comes from the government it is fair game for everyone to beat it. And not only fishermen, but there are other persons involved,as will come out in due course, who also think it is fair game. I am not saying all fishermen, I am saying a sizeable number, not the majority.

It is the full-time fislH•rman and the honest one and the true one who does not lose much gea , ~r ho hauls his gear out of the water when he hears the ice is coming, and so on and so forth,who suffers most by these programmes and who does not even make the claims,or only makes them if he has lost a net or only loses t " o nets and not ten or twenty, because he is not careless, because he is cnnscious of his gear and what it costs. That is the one I feel sorry for i n this particular epsiode. SOME RON. MEMBERS : _Qh , __ oh! M~ . SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. member has the right to be heard in silence. l'li< . CROSBIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So the fishery is a very important element of our future prospects, Mr. Speaker, but it cannot be the only solution. Now the way that I would like to appr oach the problems of the Province - 1311

DP.cember 10, 1975 Tape no. 522 Page CAPT. WINSOR: Would the hon. gentleman permit a question~ ~R. CROSBIE: Yes. Z- mw CAPT. WINSOR: Did the minister say that a great part of the abuse can be attributed to other than fishermen? MR. CROSBIE: Yes, I say that there is abuse that is not connected with fishermen, as Hell as abuse connected with fishermen and, of course, it 1dll all come out in due course, but there is little else we can Ray at the moment. Now. Mr.

Speaker, the approach I would take l or I would like to take - but I a~ part of the collectivity to the problems of this Province today, we just having re-elected in September, is, you know, assume you are going to be defeated in four years time or five years, assume that, you start off assuming that. The prospects of this government being re-elected in four or five years time are very, very slim. And if hon. gentlemen opposite were in office, the prospects of their being re-elected would be exactly as slim, because whoever gets elected to office in this Province has got very little to work with.

They have got very little to work with. They have got no big sources of revenue to work with. They have got no surpluses to work with. You have to go out and borrow it, and the moment you endanger your credit you will not be able to borrow it. So all right, we assume that in four years tfQe or five years, we are not going to be re-elected, so what! MI. NEARY: Is the minister going to stay that long? MR. CROSBIE: I do not know. I may be gone tomorrow. I must say I am getting tried of it. I may be gone next year, I do not know. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR.

CROSBIE: My wife thinks I am a fool and a sucker, and she wants me out. I only stay because I am interested in the work. The work is interesting. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear~ ~m. CROSBIE: The things you are involved with are interesting. 1312

December 10, 1975 Tape no, 522 Page 3- mw Mr. Crosbie. So I say start out assuming that in four years time or five you are going to be defeated and some other crowd is going in, and then proceed to do what needs to be done in your view.- MR. SMALLWOOD: Right! MR. CROSBIE: - and why worry. If aay be some miracle would occur, Mr. Speaker - MR.SMALLWOOD: Right! ~R.

CROSBIE: - and that the right things are done, that in four years time you can throw in a few sweeteners or somehow get the electorate to re-elect , you, or it might be that they might re-elect you anyway, but say the odds are - it does not matter who is in office here today, the odds are much against them being re-elected, MR. NEARY: Is this your swan song? MR. CROSBIE: It is not my swan song. I have said the same kinds of things before, and I have always been re-elected, and the people of St. John's West just re-elected me again. MR. NEARY: Why are you just moving - MR. SMALLWOOD: We are getting straight talk.

MR. CROSBIE: Fifty-six per cent of the vote, and the next time i t will be sixty-six per cent. I was not communicating enoush with them, Mr. Speaker, and I will not make that mistake again. But that district of St. John's West that is there now is not the old one, and I am not ashamed of the vote I got there, but I am not making the mistake of not keeping in close enough touch with them again or give them the impression that I am too busy for them to get in touch with. So any hon. gentleman who wants to run against me in St. John's West next time, T will bury him. r~~ RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ..

CROSBIE: I will bury him. Do not worry about that • 1313

December 10, 1975 Tape 523 PK - 1 Now, }fr. Speaker- so we can assume that we are not going to be re-elected in four or five years time. That is not the end of life. I would sooner be in the Opposition today MR. SIMMONS: Come on over 'John'. --------- MR. CROSBIE: - I would demolish the government if I were in the Opposition today. What a time you could have, if you wanted to take that tack. So let us go ahead - }'R. S}f.ALLWOOD: You would be. ~.~.QSBIE: Right, you would be wrong to do that. Let us go ahead. Now what have we heard from the Opposition? apart from the hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) and in spasms tl1e 11:entleman from Bell Island, excuse me, LaPoile (Mr. Neary) . Mll. NEARY: LaPojl e! LaPoile! AN Hon. MEMBER: The fugitive from Bell Island. MR. CROSBIE: What have ~·Te heard? You know, tale after tale of what needR to be done in the districts or what has happened to recreation programme or what has happened to the paving and the water and sewerage, and what needs to be done, and how the government fooled the people and it now has not got the money to do it.

Let us just be reasonable. 1• there a government in this world that ever had an election campaign and went out telling the people what it was not going to do for them? You know, it iR just too unreal to suppose. And it is not this government or any other government or Trudeau's - every government is the same. Politicians all have the same weakness. The poor fools want to be re-elected. And that is all most of them can think of. Row do you get re-elected in three, four or five years' time? Well you do not get re-elected by going around saying no to everyone.

I wasfue \iinil'lter of Finance for n1o years and a-half, Mr. Speaker, and I know ~reof T talk. You do not gain popularity by saying no to people. So ~~here are ~Je then? 1314

December 10, 1975 Tape 523 PK- 2 ~· SIMMONS: You ran a hluff, then? MR. CROSBIE: So what should we do? Well what we should do, Mr. Speaker, is do what is best for this Province. And this Province has got to get use to the same idea that the people in the rest of Canada are going to have to accept, and the people in the rest of the Western World. We are no different. It strikes Newfoundland a bit quicker and harshier first, but the other provinces of Canada are going to be raising taxes, they are going to be cutting their borrowing.

The mighthy Ontario just had a hond issued down in the United States and had difficulty selling it, and their bond dealers have got their portfolios filled up with Ontario bonds that they cannot sell and they are losing money on it. Mighthy Ontario with the triple A credit rating, just had an issue down there. ~IR. NEARY: Ne,.. York is having its own troubles.

MR~_CROSBIE: And Quebec has had to announce that James Bay has got to be slowed down, and that next year they they are going to borrow $.500 million less, Quebec Hydro, for James Bay because of the present situation of the bond market and whatever else causes it, like the Olympic Games, that kind of bread and circuses. I am just putting a statement here, Mr. Speaker; I am against Olympic Games " d all of that kind of nonsense, when you cannot afford water and "<ewerage and the rest of it. Shame! Shame! 1 ~--~!_0SBIE: And the hon. gentleman disagree with me, thinks he can do everything, I ~o not.

I will put water and sewerage ahead of Olympic Games any day. Let him run around the water and sewerage svstem instead of around the track. This Province is feeling it first, Mr. Speaker, and feel it more harshly. But when I was down in New York two weeks ago you •uld pick up the paper, the Governor of Connecticut cutting everything to the bone and reducing the civil servants salaries and telling them they have got to work, instead of thirty-five hours a week,forty 'HR. MURPHY: That is right. 1315

necember 10, 1975 Tape 523 PK- 3 MR. __ ~_R9SBIE:_ That is the Governor of Connecticut - a fairly wealthy American State. ~. MURPliT: And for the same salaries. MR. CROSBIE: The same salaries and they have to work five hours more a w<>ek, and they did not like that. Naturally they do not like it. Rut that is "'hat is happening in Connecticut and elsewhere down in the United States, and it is going to happen in other Canadian Provinces and it is ~oing to happen in other Western Countries. Why? Because we are all living too high off the hog.

Because people have come to think that an unusual combination of circumstances from 1945 to 1974 is the t~ay things are going to be forever, and that they are going to have increasing standards of living forever. They are not. The ordinary people of this country are going to have a decreasing standard of livinp, unless something extraordinary occurs. Energy costs. What is the cost of energy going to - how is that going to go? Do you think it is not going to go up next year? It is. It is going up, not just in Newfoundland but everywhere across Canada.

Our energy costs in this Province and everywhere in Canada wi.ll he doubled in five years fro!'\ what they ~tre today. MR. SMALLWOOD: Oil will increase to $25 a barrel. ~!R. CROSBIE ' Oil is the worst culprit. All of these things are going to happen. The pie is no longer expanding, Mr. Speaker. The pie was getting higger and bigger,and you could slice it around and give more to the ordinary people and bring up their standard of living, increase the social services and give them more social assistance and have medicare and free hospital treatment etc. But we have come to the end of that.

And we come to the end, unless people will start to put their hacks into it again, and start to produce more so that there is more to divide. That is where we have come to. That is where we are 'n Canada and in the rest of the Western World, North America and Western .. urope and the United Kingdom. This is no short-term crisis. And wage and price controls are not going to change this, only a 1316

necember 10, 1975 l'Jl. CJ"OSRIE: Tape 524 realization of what the situation is, and the determination by everybody to do something about it. That is why it is so tragic IB-1 that the labour movement blindly fights and battles against this programme. I mean, partly that can be blamed on the Trudeau government •mich has not moved fast enough or has not been able to convince people that they should support this~and partly because the real cause of the inflation is overspending by government, and particularly overspending by the federal govern~nt who can print their own money.

If they have a deficit of $5 billion , they can just print an extra $1 billion in bills. He cannot do that here. We cannot do that. We do not control the printing presses. So we are stuck by what we can borrow on the bond markets or what we can set the banks to give us,but not the Government of Canada. It is their overspending plus other international factors that has got us into the present inflation. Only When they cut back and other things are dona will we get this under control. But people in the Western World generally do not seem to realize yet, Mr. Speaker, that they are facing a pretty pessimistic future.

Their standards of living are not ~oing to keep going up. They are in grave danger of stopp:l .ng or roing down. YT'. S~'ALLWOOn: They are going down. " ~ . r.'ROSBIE: They are going down now, the cost of energy and the r.ost nf food. You know, these things can - anybody who now really spends any ti.l"e looking at this can see it and the f:l.gures are all there. But it is not yet in the public consciousness. But we have to get it in our consciousness pretty fast. So we are not different than the rest except that we are more vulnerable :In Newfoundland. So we have had to move sooner.

So the Minister of Finance had to br:l.ng in a Fall budget and move very ·dckly. Hhy the Fall budget? Because of the huge wage and salary increases that were g:lven to government workers and civil servants and hospital ~mrkers and so on during 1975 - principally. That is the principal reason. Tt was budgeted for 18 per cent and it cost 28 per cent or 30 per cent or whatever it was. 1317

December 10, 1975 ~me. rT'nSBIF.: Tape 524 IB-2 What is to happen with collective bargaining in the public service, Mr. Speaker? I mean, is it a sensible system that permits strikes in the public service when now it is no longer the economic pressure that the employer suffers when a strike is on or the employee suffers when he is not getting his wages, but it is how much can you throttle ann disaccommodate and endanger and imperil the public, when that is the criterion? How is that going to be solved? The present system is not a satisfactory one. It is not.

And there has got to be something better, some system of arbitration or whatever. But these are the problems faced today, ~lr. St>eaker. Forty per cent of the gross national product, l"r. Speaker, i.s being spent today in Canada hy Fovernments, federal, provincial and municipal, Forty per cent of everything we all make is taken from us and spent hy theRe eovernments. ~lore and more of the activity nf our society is becoming der.ided by government. We are moving towards the socialist system of full control. They are moving a bit towards our system, giving them a little more freedom. The nuestion really is, l"r.

Speaker, can the democratic system survive in the Western World'? Will it survive the next ten years? Because democracv and this business of electing governments and a parliamentary system has onJy originated in the last seventy-five, ~ · the most trlO years because of a certain cornbi.nation of events, t ·,e industrial revolution, increasing wealth and the gentry could afford to Jet the peasantry have a bit more 1 and eventually give them the vote and so on and so forth until we all get the vo1:e and 1~omen are allowed to vote and you vote governments in and out. It can be snuffe<i out i.n no time.

Look how easily Indira Gandhi snuffed it out in India! It is just announced one night that the opposition is in ~ pJot against you, and they are endangering you, and they are ,rted off to jail and you have no longer free speech, free press • . Trudeau could do that tomorrow. There "Tould not be anything to stop him as long as the Armed Forces did not take an independent role, and they would not. So the quest ton is, how long, 'Mr. Speaker, wHl the democratic 1318

Tape 524 IB-3 >'T' • r.NlSP. T E: system last if \o7e cannot stop the political excesses that are c11using the economi c stagnation and ruin because it :Is caused by governments wanting to he re-elected. Naturally they want to be re-elected. HI' all think "''e are doiJl8 a great job. tve all enjoy heing in power " an<l so on. He do not- want to be ....., defeated.

So an election is coming up and for a year or t~oro you try to do the things that are popular and the opposition is just a guilty because they are saying you should do this and you should do that,knowing you cannot do it, and we ~1 do this arid we will do that. That is the way the system goes. And as a result of all this for the last thirty or forty years the political excesses are causintt the economic trouble we are now in . So the question 1319

December 10, 1975 Tape No. 525 NM- 1 ~fR. CROSBIE: is can this be reversed and still have a democratic system or form of government? Or does some strong man- do the people turn to some strong man and say, "We cannot stand any more of this inflation and these strikes and the rest of it, and being held by the throat and having our pockets picked and so on, we cannot stand that. Never mind elections, we want somebody who is going to cure that. We want good strong government. We want somebody who will run the trains ,like }fussolini ran the trains." Here in Newfoundland we have not got trains to run. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Have them on time. MR. CROSBIE: That is right. Get them running on time. You know in our saall little way here in this House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, we are only, what is it, a microcosm - if that is the rir~t phrase - of a debate or a proceeding .or a happening that is going to go on in all the other states and provinces in North America and in Europe, a part of a larger scene. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, would the minister arrange to have some of his colleagues come in and hear his "remarkably able speech? Here were are crowded over he~e and empty over there. That is wrong.

They need to hear this speech. ~ fR. CROSBIE: Well they are all out, Mr. Speaker, listening attentively out in the - 'lR • S~!ALLWO(IJ) : Yes, I am sure. MR. CROSBIE: Now, Mr. Speaker, I only have a few minutes left. So I say that we are just a small part of what is a bigger crisis and it will he interesting to see how we handle it here. Now it is possible that this House of Assembly can handle it.

There is a much better atmosphere here than there was in the last one and it would be interesing how. - I mean I see why1 of course 1members opposite have to be annoyed about the election and they want to bring up how this was said and that and what not and so forth and how infamous the government was. Well get it off your chest, and get it off yoor chest now, so we can get down to the serious business. Do not get all fraziled. The odds are, I will say my own opinion is the odds are nine to one, ten to one, you are going 1320

December 10, 1975 Tape No. 525 NM- 2 >~. CROSBIE: to be in power in four or five years time. Just be patient. Just play the thing right. You do not have to say a word. You do no~ have to be always attacking the government. You just wait and it drops into your lap. ~~ . NOLAN: Is that a promise? MR. CROSBIE:_ Well I mean you know a miracle may occur. A 111iracle may occur. A ohilosoohical minister: MR.NEARY: Sir, I wonder if the minister mir,ht like a little extra time, if so 1 am satisfied for him to carry on for a few extra minutes. MR. MURPHY : 'MR. CROSBIE: I would love to hear more.

I have not got much more to say, Mr. Speaker, so maybe it will not be necessary. So what have we got to do. One of the pleasant surprises of this ,- well I envy,actually, Mr. Speaker, I envy the member for Twillingate, because he is obviously adopting a philosophical approach to the whole situation. He is now an elder statesman. He can be. M~. SMALLWOOD: Now none of that. MR. CROSBIE: Of course he could have a come back. He could sweep the Island in four years time.

Anything is possible with the bon. gentleman but I think that there are ninety-nine chances out of a hundred - MR. li_ ~!!.!_ Come over, we will form a new party. MR . CROSBIE: - that the bon. gentleman is not going to run anymore. So hE' can sit in this House here and be quite -you know,he can just decide every day what attitude he is going to take or what he thinks of this or that or he might criticize the opposition or the government or support th em. This is a lvonderful position to he in. \That could be better for the next four yt!ll.rs than to be able to be in that position? Hl? .

NEARY: Come over and the three of us will form a new party . ~· r. . CROSBIE: Well we have got to keep these conspiracies quiet or they 1ipped in the bud. So, Mr. Speaker- NR. MURPHY : I must say. 1a very co111patible group. ~lR. CROSBIE: Very compatible. Yes, I have never felt such affection oozing out of me, }'r. Speaker. It is not 1 ike the old days. 1321

necemher 10, 1975 Tape No. 525 HR. CllOSBTE : So, Hr. Speaker, what have we got to do now then if we are going to approach things sensibly as to our economic prospects? A ~elect committee is a debating device. I do not think a select committee is the way to do it. Maybe you could have a conference, a conference or some neeting could be held at which anyone with Ru~p:eRtions r,•oulii write in in advance and you might spend a couple of days .

T think the bon, gentleman from Twilli~gate had similar but it might perhaps be useful, where you spend a couple of days ~·ith the IJhole thinp, telPvised discussing the prospects of the Island and your peopl1> from the university, so whoever it is, or anyone •r1"1o has made a suggestion that is obviously not crackpot and,you know, see what suggestions and ideas you get. But a select comm.ittee I do not think would he any help. But what have we got to do? We have to cut back spending,and borrowing to spend money on other than essentials.

And the essentials are, ••ell you have got to try to carry on the services that are here now at their present level, although you might have to come to the position where you have got to reduce them. That is a possiblity. 1\ut at least - Order, please.: noes the bon. minister have leave of :_~ROSB_IE: I am almost finished, 'Mr. Speaker; '~. MURPHY: A minute and a half. ----- - -~. CROSBIE: You may have to cutback services but let us say that you just carry them on at the present level;and you have got to borrow money to do that. This Province cannot have any capital expenditure programme at Rll without borrowing.

It is a misnomer :o say that our deficit this year w:l.ll be $ll million if this all -orks out in the Fall Budget, The deficit is 1322

December 10, J.C175. ~!R. CTH1SlHF:: Tape 526 RH - 1 not that. You got to add the carital account and the current account together. That is when you get the deficit and that is two hundred and something million doJ lars. We have not had a surplus in the Newfoundland Government burlgets since 1949, Nr. Speaker. For the sake of convenience it is divided into current and capital account. We always had deficit l1udgets but we cannot afford to have a deficit on the current account or the running account or "'hat ever. That is a very serious thing and has to he stopped.

You know, our deficit is not just $11 million. l~e have got to borrow everything that we spend on capital account apart from what we ~;et from the r.overnment of Canada. So that has got to he cut hack. You have got to spend a certain amount on roads. You just cannot stop all road building or road construction. So certain things have got to continue. •fuere we can get any money or have any money the essential has got to be to try to develop the Province's resources, the things that are going to give us some kind of future. So l~e are not just curiosities here.

Are ~re going to be called in five years time the old curiosity shop? That is the danger this Province is in, :Mr. Speaker. It will not be the Province of Nelvfoundland and Labrador. It will be the Province of the old curiosity shop vrhere people col'!e down from the mainland to have a nice little summer looking at the quaint Newfs going alonp.: the Coast looking at them in their quaint little outports l•Tith their nice painted houses n ! thP-ir boats. That is the prospect that dawns before us if none of the things that we are attempting can be brought to fruition. That is one reason, :Mr.

Speaker, why I am- I will elaborate on this next ,·eek - why I am prepared to gamble and take a risk on the Lower Churchill. I remember an hon. gentleman opposite used to tell us about how I was too cautious and you had to take risks. I hope the hon. gentleman from Tv.'illingate is going to he a risk-taker when we come to this debate on ''ull Island,hecause without we take the risk on that it is another big ~p do"m the road to being nothing but a tourist curiosity in this rovince, or having no real prospects of independence on our own.

So whatever money - our credit, lvhatever credit we have got, the first essential use of that credit should be, in my view, the Lower Churchill 1323

December 10, 1975. MR . CROSBIE: Tape 526 RH - 2 and anything else that has to do with resources 1and then after that carry­ inp on the services of the government. That is where the priority should he, what we can borrow. That gigantic task, of course, we cannot succeed on at all with out the help of the Government of Canada. It is a project that is in the national interest but it is a subject for another topic.

So what we have got to decide in this House, the government and the Opposition,because the government's lot in choosing the unpopular path is obviously a lot easier if the Opposition are not too partisan in their crtticism,and they do not need to be because it is all gain!!; to fall in their laps. All they have to do is stand by mute for the next four years or maybe _jazz up their criticism the last year and they will have it., whatever there is to have.

But unless we can get through the next three or four years with some sensible co-ordinated programme, protect our credit and develop the Island there is nothing worth there taking over. Who wants to -who would want to take it over? What is the good of taking it over? It is just as well to be elected to the city council or to the council of one of the other municipalities as it is to be in the Government of Newfoundland in three or four years time if ~•e cannot make a fist of it or do the things that are necessary to keep us with some prospects for development in this Province. So the Opposition is losing nothing.

Yes, criticize when you see something · :ong or you get some hint of unpropriety or there are things being none that should be drawn to public attention. I am all for that, Mr. Speaker, go around with your snoots in the air sniffing and every • time you get a whiff of something dig it out, yes, that is a good function. MR. NEARY: I got my ovn underground movement. MR. CROSBIE: There is the bigger sniffer of them all over there. That is a good function of an Opposition-and make reasonable criticism and constructive suggestions of what should be done.

But a lot of the ·dinary political criticism could be dropped because it is not needed • . au do not need it to be successful the next election and it is not to anybody's advantage. 1324

nece~het 10, 1Q75. Tape 526 PJI - 3 Now, ~r . ~peaker, I have never neederl to ask anyone for any mercy. If any hon . gentleman ~ants to attack or debate or slug it out Ni.th me I can do it. I r.ot a lot of experience since 1Qfi0 • m~ . NOL/u'l : llard-hoiled. NR. CROSBIE: Yes, pretty hard boiled, yes. t have a lot of battle scars, so 1 am prepa red to olay it either way. But I have not really p.ot ~ hea r t in it at this session of the House, Hr. Speaker, hecause .. really I think we do face a serious situation.

The populace needs to he, the people need to be apprized of it and made aware of it and ~e got to make the best fist of i t ~ can. ~ . NEARY: Can you reassur e us vou ~ill not give u~ and quit. tm . CROSB!t: ~~11, t do not want to give up and quit, Mr. Speaker. That is not a course that I Hould want to take and I do not i .ntend to take. 1325

December 10, 1975 Mr. Crosbie. Tape no. 527 Page 1 - mw So, in my first speech in the House, I will just say that, while I have enjoyed the House much better, though, my heart is not really in the debate, I am saying, Mr. Speaker, in the sense . that I alwaya enjoy the cut and thrust and so on. My heart is not in it that much but the atmosphere in the House is a lot better. Anq I must say the Speaker has to be congratulated, and the Deputy Speaker. I think they are doing ju