Manitoba Hansard — 14 April 1977 (Sitting 39B, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-39b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

TIME: 8:00 p.m. THE LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBL Y of MAN ITOBA Thursday, April 14, 1977 CONC URRENT COM MI TTEES OF SUPPLY ESTIMATES - PUBLIC WO RKS MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital): We have a quorum, gentlemen, the committee will come to order. I direct the attention of honourable members to Page 51 in their Estimates Book, the Department of Public Works. Resolution 10 1 Supply and Services (

b) Central Provincial Garage

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, prior to the break at 4:30 we were talking about Central Provincial Garage and the salaries and the number of vehicles and we broke-off, at that time, prior to discussing the electric vehicles, which I believe was mutually agreed upon by the Minister and members of committee that we would leave that matter until tonight.

I am of the opinion that the Provincial Gov ernment has in the neighbourhood of ten electrical vehicles that basically sit in the Provincial Garage day in and day out, and collect dust, and thatthis is a cost to the taxpayers of Manitoba. I compliment the Minister for his imagination originally, in thinking that maybe electric cars had som e validity. But, on the other hand, l believe, personally, that the Manitoba Hydro should have been the persons that would have paid for this experiment of having electric vehicles.

And on the other hand, electric vehicles. in my opinion' really don't have a strong attachment to the Manitoba Hydro because the Manitoba Hydro generates its power to each and every unit through power lines, and yet battery powered cars, in my opinion, I find it very difficult to understand how battery-powered cars are electric cars, but battery-powered cars that have eight batteries in them and have a lifespan of 47 miles I just can't find a practical use for. I think that this particular government, Mr.

Chairman, has spent far more money in this experimentation than they ever should have, and my colleagues, and from my investigation, I find that these eight or ten vehicles are sitting in the Provincial Garage, seldom ever used, and if they are used that they are an inferior product. I'd like to have the Minister comment on the expense of the battery-powered vehicles. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think that this is a very interesting field and I think that the honourable member is harbouring some misconceptions about what is going on.

I don't like to draw comparisons but I'm sure that if in the old days when people talked about the first airplane, when Wilbur and Orville were telling people they were going to have this flying machine, people laughed at them and said they were crazy. And I thinkthe electric car is like in the early ... is in as imilar stage to the early development of the airplane, or I think it's in a similar stage to the early development of the car. I would assume that the electric car is about where the gas car was around 19 10, 19 15 , in that particular period of time - still in an experimental stage.

But, I tell you qu ite frankly that I believe that the future is in electric cars; that I really believe that in the next ten, twenty years that when they break the technology, when they start spending money and time perfecting the electric car and, of course, all of this is in relation to sales, and a·ll of it's in relation to the cost of electricity versus the cost of gas and oil. Now I think that the electric car today, on an operations basis alone, is competitive with gas and oil, maybe it's even better than gas and oil.

Where you get killed in the electric car is it costs double or triple what an ordinary car costs. That's where you get killed . Okay, an electric car now is not for highway travel. Hydro has a car which is a full-sized Chevrolet basically, and that car has an attachment which I regard as silly. First of all, I think the car may be okay but the attachment is silly. And what it is, it's a little sort of power supply or cart that you hook onto the back, you fill it full of gasoline, it cranks and spits away, and cranks up electricity which it feeds into the car. Who needs that?

I mean if you're going to put gas into the motor that you're carrying along with you, you may as well put it into the engine. So that clearly doesn't make any sense, and we're still far away from an electric car that will go on the highway. But, the average car, if you think of the average car, if you have a second car, or you just drive around the City of Winnipeg, you know, we all have gas-eating monsters that can do 10 0 or 12 0 or 13 0, and you drive it at 30.

You dr ive it at 30, 32, 35, 40, something like that but the thing can do over 10 0 miles an hour, and most of us are not driving more than 20 or 30 miles a day, as if an electric car can have a range of 50 or 60 miles a day, that is in fact more than adequate. Now the biggest problem we've had to date is this, that the cars we have have had a charging time of 16 hours to get a full charge. Now we want to be able to get a full charge on 8 hours. It charges at a regular plug- in, 11 O volts, it takes 16 hours.

So if you get home from work at 6 o'clock and you plug in and you leave the next day at 8 o'clock, you're okay, you have a full charge. But if you get in at midnight and plug in and leave at eight, you have a half a charge. So that's the problem. We wantto be able to plug in and get an eig ht-hour charge, a full charge. And we have tried and we have had some 1887

Thursday, April 14; 1977 problems. We were told you could either plug in at 1 10 atsixteen hours, or 220 at eight and we've had problems with the transformers, and the chargers, and the converters, etc., etc. Now, we have seven cars and one truck that we purchased and Hyd ro bought one car. Hydro has this full sized car. Our seven cars were leased, three to the City, one to Hydro, and we have three.

I can only tell you that our three - we have had problems with them, we have experimented with them, we've had the people from the States, who come from Cleveland, come up here a couple of times, and I cah tell you, we have given them hell because they have not lived up to some of their promises, or some of their agreements. But right now, the cars are running, and we seem to know how to handle them. The truck, we have never had any problem with.

The truck has worked out very well, I'd say to 80, 90, 10 0 percent of our expectations, and the Hydro car, I' m notthat familiar with, and I can't report too well on how the City is doing with their three cars or how Hydro is doing with theirs. But we have never thought, from day one, we were going to run these cars and then buy 10 0 and then buy 1, 000 and then have everybody in Manitoba driving electric cars. We never thought that. We have encountered more difficulties than I think we anticipated.

But right now, I think, in our garage, we have two or three or four people who are quite knowledgeable about these cars, and the questions about sulphuric acid and so on which we got, which were true to a certain extent maybe a year ago, are no longer true. People are not smelling sulphuric acid and having it turn their stomachs. Apparently that is gone. We have resolved that particular problem. That's about all I can report to you. It's an experiment.

I think it's a good experiment, and I tell you with some confidence, that I think that in ten to twenty years there's going to be an awful lot of electric cars on the road. There's going to be qu ite a few, a fairly high percentage of average people are going to be driving around in these cars. Gi ven the present projections for the cost of gas and oil, and given the development of a better technology and a new battery, I think that this is the direction that transportation will go. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, my question to the Minister is, he gives us a glowing report as to the future of the electric car, the battery driven car. And I think this is a point that should be made rather clear, that it's not really in my opinion an electric car, it's a battery-driven car. If we were trying to ... MR. DOERN: Batteries are fed by electricity. MR. STEEN: Well, yes, they have to be charged up just like the Member from Emerson, they have to be tuned up once in a while. Mr. Chairman, the Minister gives us glowing reports as to the reasons why he thinks that the battery car is a car for the future and so on.

Therefore my question is why have the cars been sitting in the Provincial Garage accumulating very few miles and being used rather sparingly? It's obvious, in my opinion, that the personnel that are required to drive them or are expected to drive them don't like them, don't want them and don't think that they are a very good vehicle. Your experimentation is obviously, in my opinion, a failure. My first note and comment earlier was that I think that if the battery car is a car for the future, and as you say, Mr.

Minister, that the battery car has to be generated by power and electricity, then why don'twe have the Manitoba Hydro and other hydro-electric boards pay for this experimentation rather than the taxpayers of Manitoba? MR. DOE RN: I assume the taxpayers of Manitoba pay either Hydro or the Provincial Govern ment, it doesn't really matter, they are going to - you know, their dollars go to either source.

I can't recall precisely the amount of money the American government is supposed to put into this, at least under the Ford administration, but I thought it was a hundred million or something and there's all sort of electric car people in the States waiting for the American government to move. Like the Federal Post Office is supposed to buy several thousand vehicles, etc., but they still haven't really untracked that.

The Japanese, I think, built one car at either eight or ten or fifteen million dollars that they poured into one prototype and I say, that when the Japanese get involved look out, because if they ever really get into this, then I think that they may become the leaders in the field. I could go on, but I don't regard this as a failure.

I believe that the time will come in the future, and I'm not talking a hundred years from now, you will drive an electric car, you will pull up to a filling station, they will take out one battery, out of your hood, put in another one within a couple of minutes, the same timeit takes to fill up a gas tank, you will sign for it on your credit card the way you do for a tank of gas and you will drive off. There are now electric trucks like that. Our electric truck has two very large batteries. They weigh a thousand or two thousand pounds apiece and you can have one battery charging and one in the truck.

You can pull into the garage and within minutes you open up the side, unscrew a couple of things, put a fork-lift in, take it out, put another battery in, tighten it up - maybe five minutes. And I tell you that that is where the future of electric cars is. It's not in plugging in for sixteen hours or eight hours or four hours; it's in having maybe some charging at home but basically you go down the street, pull up to a garage, the fellow takes out the battery, whips in another one in minutes and away you go for another sixty miles. That's what is coming and I don't think that's that far away into the future. MR.

STEEN: Mr. Chairman, I think what the Minister is saying is correct. There is a future perhaps for battery-d riven vehicles but there is also only a future for the battery-driven vehicle on the short 1888

Thursday, April 14, 1977 distance haul. Battery-driven vehicles are excellent as golf carts; they are excellent for perhaps as a post office vehicle that circulates between half a dozen government buildings and so on, but I don't think that there is a future for the battery-driven vehicle for the Minister, for example, who is going to Dauphin to be part of a sod-turning ceremony with in a few days. I don'tthink there isa future there for the battery-driven vehicle.

On the other hand I question the Minister as to - is it the Provincial Government of Manitoba's responsibility to introduce and do the experimentation of the battery-driven vehicle or is it the responsibility of the Manitoba Hyd ro or even more so, those who manufacture the vehicle? I don't think that the governments of the various states in the United States or the various provinces in Canada did the experimentation for Ford or GM or Chrysler, and I personally think that this Provincial Govern ment has really wasted better than $1 00,000 playing ar ound with a little toy. Unfortunately, Mr.

Chairman, the people of Manitoba have lost the value of this little toy. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, today at nine o'clock at the Archives Building, I opened a conference, a one-day seminar on energy conservation sponsored by the Department of Public Works. We expected 200 people to come. We had it scheduled for the Norquay Building Auditorium. Three hundred and twenty registered and we had to move it; it was either cutthem off, jam them in or move, so we decided to move down the street. A large number of people are interested in energy conservation and I'm talking now of government and industry.

The conference contained people from my department, from Industry and Commerce, from other government departments, a large assortment of engineers, architects, developers, building owners and operators, contractors. A lot of people are interested in this subject, and probably the biggest wastage in fossil fuels is in the field of transportation. I pointed out to you that about 50 percent of our sedans are now compacts in the provincial fleet. How do you persuade people to operate their cars less? Well, one solution is to raise the price of gasol ine.

If you raise it like the Americans are talking about, ten cents a gal lon for three years, that will discourage people. Another one is pour money into public transportation. Another one is experiment with other kinds of vehicles, you know, tell people that instead of driving to the corner store in their car, I think a lot of people will drive one or two blocks to the store and won't walk, and you try to persuade people that they are wasting gasoline, wasting money, wasting finite resources, etc. This is simply one factor in that equation, it's a very small one.

I suppose the way we are involved is as follows: The Minister of Ind ustry and Commerce, who will shortly fill this room with his voice, he's interested in energy policy in the broad terms of the nation and the province; and our department, we are interested in energy conservation within the government, buildings, vehicles. etc.

It's by virture of the fact that we are responsible for the car fleet that we are involved, and I think it makes sense, that if we operate several thousand vehicles and also are responsible for the total operation and maintenance of the fleet and we're responsible for, I suppose, being involved in leasing vehicles, etc. etc., that although this is an experiment, thatthere is some logic for it to fall within the ambit of th is particular department.

So I suppose that someone else will have to judge whether I am making a stron.ger case than the Member for Crescentwood or he is making a stronger case than I am, but I am simply saying I feel it is a worthwhile experiment. He feels that it is not a worthwhile experiment and I suppose we can call it a draw. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, I' m not saying that it it not a worthwhile experiment, I think that the large car manufacturers could be footing the bill for this, or the hydro-electric companies could be footing the bill for this ... MR. DOERN: Not General Motors. MR.

STEEN: ... and this Minister is correct that the hydro-electric is really the same taxpayer base as the Department of Public Works, that's correct. But can the Minister tell us, he gives me the impression that there are nine electric cars . MR. DOERN: Seven. MR. STEEN: Is there seven? MR. DOERN: Plus one. MR. STEEN: Seven plus one, okay, eight electric cars - the cost to the department, including the truck which the Member for Wolseley says makes nine - the cost to the department of these nine vehicles and how many miles that they are being run, collectively? MR.

DOERN: Well, I believe that the cars, we bought seven, I believe they were ten-and-a-half thousand apiece. They are a brand new Renaults. If you bought them off your dealer, they'd be half of that. They're $10, 500 apiece, the van was $1 6,000 to $1 8,000, and I think Hydro's car which is a full sized car was about $16 ,000 to $1 8,000.00. That same car now apparently sells for $23,000.00. But, you know, as I said say, if you make a straight comparison, the Ren au It is double, the truck is triple.

I am told that if you bought a brand new Dodge or some comparable-sized truck, it would be about $5,000 to $6,000.00. In terms of mileage, I can't give that to you. I would have to get that but I think that our cars are 1889

Thursday, April 14, 1977 1, 000 to 1, 500 apiece on miles. They haven't racked up 12 ,000 miles but some of that time they have been sitting there and part of that problem has been technological. It has not been because we can't find the drivers, etc., it's been because we've had battery problems, we've had transformer problems, charger problems. We've spent time trying to convert from 110 to 220, when we were told that they could do it. We've had the mechanics up here. I have spoken to their people, we have written them some angry letters, etc., etc.

But I think about now, I think, in what I call the second phase of the experiment, I think we should have a much better record and should be able to put on more miles and have more experience .. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, I would therefore say that it's been a very expensive experiment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My colleague from Crescentwood has covered most of the points, I just have to reiterate. I think it has been a costly experiment.

I just wonder how long the experiment is going to go on because they had cars back when I was a small boy, Huds on Bay and Eaton's had cars, electric cars, electric trucks in the city for delivering. They were a complete disaster, and I don'tthink with all the technical knowledge that we have acquired the last 50, 60 years, I don't think we have advanced that far in electric cars. There is no possible way that you are going to convince me, and I don't think the taxpayers of this province, that the electric car is the coming thing.

I think they've done experimenting with the technology that's available to us today; they've done a tremendous amount of experimenting with them, and I don't think they're working out. The Member for Crescentwood mentioned that they were okay for golf carts. Well they're not. They're a complete disaster as far as golf carts are concerned. You can't even get 18 holes out of half of the electric golf carts. MR. DOERN: You're supposed to be able to walk. MR. BLAKE: Well I do, I don't have a cart.

But if you can't get the little golf cart perfected to the point where it will carry you around the golf course for a couple of hours, I don't see any future in electric cars or electric trucks. I just would like the Minister to tell us how long are we going to go on experimenting and how much is this going to cost us before we decide it's been a bad experiment, we're going to get rid of the cars and take our licking, and get back to sensible gas-o perated vehicles, which seem to be the only ones that operate efficiently. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I think that this experiment will run for another couple of years and when the reports are in then the government will decide what it's going to do. It will either abandon the experiment; it will either continue the experiment or it will buy more and better vehicles of a more advanced type and so on. My honourable friend relates his experience. I think in England where I've been a few times and haven't been really aware of electric vehicles buzzing around, but I understand that there are electric trucks that have been used there for, I don't know, 40 or 50 years and that the English tend to ... MR.

BLAKE: Certainly in a good climate. But not in our climate. MR. DOERN: And, you know, if I had told the Member for Minnedosa five years ago thatthe price of oil was going to go to-I don't know what it is today-13, 14 , 15 bucks a barrel ... MR. BLAKE: Or my Hyd ro bill. MR. DOERN: ... when it was a couple of bucks a barrel, he wouldn't have believed me because at one time gas was cheap, oil was cheap, all you wanted, all you could waste, don't even give it a thought.

Now I think we are going slowly from an attitude of waste all the fuel that you want, waste all the energy that you want, to watch what you're doing. In Nova Scotia-I don't wantto startthe Hyd ro debate, I'm not on the Public Utilities Committee-they went up 47 percent on their electric bills, etc. Now, when that happens you have to start thinking about what you're going to do. And ifthe price of gas went up to $2 a gal lon then I think you'd have to look at your bicycle, look at your legs and look at electric cars. Because that's where we're going. MR. BLAKE: Well that's all well and good, Mr.

Chairman, but the Minister does not make a convincing argument for the experiment on electric cars. I know we're going to have to conserve energy, I know we're going to have to look at bicycles and our legs and what-not, but that doesn't make any argument for the use of electric cars which are not operating efficiently. I wonder if the Minister has put a ceiling or a limit on what this experiment is going to cost the taxpayers. Have you put a limit on of a quarter of a million or a half a million or how much are you going to spend experimenting or playing around with these little toys? MR.

DOERN: The total capital cost on the vehicles to date is about $90,000.00. That's what we've spent. If you add in Hyd ro's it goes to a little over $1 00,000.00. And we don't have any plans at present to purchase more vehicles. So if you think I'm going to put these cars in the garage and leave them there or auction them off, I don't intend to do that. I intend to keep operating them for a number of years, after which we will decide the future of those vehicles and the future of our experiment with electric cars. MR. BLAKE: We could go on for many hours on this, Mr.

Chairman, but I won'tbelabour the point because we want to move on in the Estimates. But the Minister has not put foward a convincing 1890

Thursday, April 14, 1977 argu ment for the expenditure of a hundred and some thousand dollars tor playing around with these cars, because it could have been done by the manufacturer. If they're interested in selling the cars, they would have come here, demonstrated them tor nothing, without us being burdened with the problem of having people look at them and service them and estimate and evaluate whether they're good or whether they aren't. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I think I have persuaded the left side of the table, but not the right. Unless the manufacturers have a market, what can they do?

You know if Chevrolet right now sold 200 cars a year, they'd cost $1 0,000 to $20,000 apiece. It's because they sell millions that they have a low price. Now, these people are selling Renaults at $1 0,500.00. You can't say to them, "Produce a whole bunch, give them away two for one or something. " They have to have a market. Somebody has to support them. You're a businessman. MR. BLAKE: Then you promote the market. Are you going to sell electric cars tor them? MR. DOERN: No, but unless somebody is prepared to experiment or gamble or invest, they don't have anything. MR.

BLAKE: . . . the taxpayers' money to promote the electric cars. MR. DOERN: I tell you that when Gener al Motors, who appear to be doing nothing in this business and all these big dealer s-th is is my assessment-when a break- through is made, they will make a shift into electric cars like you wouldn't believe that they're staying out of it. But when the breakthrough comes, I think you will find that they will move into this field very quickly and they will be competitive. But they're hanging back. MR. BLAKE: One final word, Mr. Chair man.

And the ads will say, "Tested and proven by the Province of Manitoba Public Works Department. Gu aranteed to function 10 0 percent." MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: I think the Member for Crescentwood was all too kind because I think ... MR. DOERN: Be careful. I'll bring Johannson in. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. WILSON: Well the Member for St. Matthews could listen as well. But the point is that, I think what we've done is we've taken upon ourselves, and politicians are always good at spending other people's money.

In fact, there are several famous quotations that go along that line. I think what we have is a Cabinet of scientists and game players. The Minister tor Consumer Affairs had a gamethat he paid $17 5 each tor. The Minister of Agriculture had another game. It seems that we're always going in and trying these experiments and tinkering around and I think that somebody is going to judge. In fact, I'm quoting the Minister and somebody is going to judge because I think we made a mistake as somebody who's supposed to watch the public purse and be careful with taxpayers' money and I think this experiment was ill timed.

I don't think it was far enough along torus to buy that many. I'd be interested in knowing the odometer readings of all the units and maybe that could be found out through an Order for Return. The Minister mentioned a thousand miles average per car. MR. DOERN: I'm speaking of our own now, our fleet. MR. WILSON: Yes. Well, it might be interesting to see how others are doing. The city always seems to accept gifts from the province because they feel that if they don't accept the gifts something will happen. I'd be interested to see what happened to theirthree units.

You mentioned that you were very proud of the experiment, and I might sugge st that the Japanese or the Federal Government, or possibly the rich oil barons, the OPEC nations would have been far better off to be tinkering around with money because I don't think we should have. I'd like to know if the Minister has any comment in this area regarding the weight of these batteries. I realize they are stuck - in talking about the truck now- is there going to be any problem with any load limit pertaining to the weight if these batteries weigh a thousand apiece.

What does the Minister in charge of Autopac do if one of these units ever gets into an accident? They've got enough trouble deal ing with standard models and figuring out how to handle accidents. The Minister mentioned the total cost being approximately $1 00,000.00. I'll take him at his word there. Those were my questions pertaining to the electric cars and I don't share his optimism. I really think it it would have been better if Manitoba had stayed out of it. Our climate isn't conducive to tinkering with electric units. I noticed that even the government hasn't gone into the golf carts.

I had the privilege of going up to Hecia Island , they had one electric golf cart there and the fellow took me tor a tour and we got to the farthest hole away from the club house and the thing went dead and we had to walk back. So I think that these units are good in warmer climate. I think they have a lot of merit together with mopeds in say Florida and in elderly citizens' subdivisions, in more of a golf-course type of thing. I think they have an excellent future there. I think possibly in small things like delivering. Post Office could use them.

I think possibly you may find the day when they will be used in political campaigns because of the short-ranged economic haul. But I don't think to try to saddle the taxpayers of Winnipeg with these electric cars is a good thing. I did want to make one comment under th is because it did come under the Central Garage. Is the Minister talking about using this very expensive old Central Ga rage that we have-he is going to use 1891

Thursday, April 14, 1977 it as a grease rack and wash rack-and I would think with the price of land in thatarea that we're going to have the most expensive grease rack in Canada, if not North America. I think the Minister should be looking to selling this land and thinking of the extra vitality it would give to the downtown area to have a beautiful building in there. I would hope it wouldn't be another government building, I hope it could be sold. But however, if the government wants to land bank then maybe some future building that would add to the vitality of thedowntown area.

I can see no benefit to the City of Winnipeg if we made the commitment to build the new garage for efficiency purposes, that we should be hanging on to this old one as part of his department. And those are the two comments under the garage at this time. MR. DOERN: Well' Mr. Chairman, trying to answer some of these comments. The member says why don't the oil barons develop an electric car. Well isn't that contrary to their best interests? Are people in the gas and oil industry going to try to develop something that is in competition to themselves?

And similarly, are people who have electric power going to try to develop things that use gas? It's simply a contradiction. MR. WILSON: The Japanese will build anything if there's money in it. MR. DOERN: That's right. I say that they're probably the ones to watch. If they get into this field and start spending money on technology they will break these problems with batteries and I say it's just a matter of time.

You know, the Americans, one day woke up and saw Sputnik flying around, and they poured hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars into setting up these research centres, thousands of engineers, thousands of hours, m ii lions of dollars and in a matter of time, they were able to put a man on the moon. I'm telling you, if you put in one percent or a tenth of that effort, you'll have an electric car that will do anything that you want. MR. WILSON: We don't have the resources. MR. DOERN: Weight has not been a problem in terms of the operation of our truck.

Climate, you say it's no good to have a car like this in this climate. Well, you know, winter is very bad on batteries. It takes quite a strain on batteries but we have electric power. We have electricity. We have the fuel for these vehicles. The other thing that you are ignoring is pollution. People are worried about pollution from emissions. They have all these attachments on the cars. You screw this thing on your car and then you get five miles to the gallon less because you're combating the emissions. These cars are 10 0 percent pollution-free.

On the other point about the Central Provincial Garage, there is no way that you could persuade me to sell that garage to a private developer. Never. I don't believe in selling land in the core area. I believe that we should acquire more land for the future. Another factor in addition to pollution is noise. If you don't like the sound of hundreds of cars driving by, if you had hundreds of electric cars driving by it would be relatively quiet. I would not sell the Central Provincial Garage site. Figur e over the next 20 to 50 of the Provincial Govern ment, there will be a need for more buildings in the core area.

We intend to do some servicing of our vehicles downtown, mainly light, gas, oil and wash, downtown. The body work and all that will be done on Logan Avenue. And we're going to move a number of our employees into that garage building. There are offices there and our present plans call for moving 31 members of District No. 1 Public Works personnel into the garage when the function changes. They also operate a workshop. So that building is not going to be idle. I'd never sell it to a developer. I speak for myself in that regard. MR.

WILSON: Well, this is possibly one of the reasons why Winnipeg has a lot of catching up to do and somebody is going to make that decision. The Minister was talking about buying more land in the core area to leave . . . MR. DOERN: I' m talking about the Legislative core area? MR. WILSON: Yes, I'm talking about that area. How could you leave an old Central Garage in the downtown area as an example for future deve lopment. It just doesn't make sense to leave that building and take away the possible vitality that could be generated by something exciting and new going in there.

The Minister talks about the need for more buildings and the need to experiment with electric cars and the need for more land downtown, and I submit that somebody's going to judge those comments against the ones similar to what I'm making, one of restraint, one of examining a possible savings. 1'11 Gven go so far as to say, if this Minister does not have some future plans for that site and will not sell it at today's fantastic prices that could recoup some money, and then has to go to the electorate and explain that he has built a brand-new government garage that won't even be able to centralize all his needs - in other words, it's obsolete before it's even opened, then who are we to carry on further in this area? -(I nterjection)- That's what I say, we have the Minister comparing himself to Orville Wright and we have us examining his Estimates and saying , "It's time for restraint" - and the Minister has even commented that he has even put 50 percent of his fleet into compact cars, which meanson one hand he's spend ing a lot of money, and on the other he's making a move to save and they're not consistent.

MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, you can't have it both ways. You can't condemn us for building new 1892

Thursday, April 14, 1977 buildings and then condemn us for not building new buildings. The alternative to building is leasing, and the policy of the Opposition has been, over their term in office and throughout our period, their advice to us either explicitly or implicitly is, "Lease your requi rements. Lease from private developers." I reject that policy. I say that you need a combination of build and lease. I believe that you should build in a ratio of about two to one. For every three units, you should build two. Now, if Members of the Opposition were in government, they would lease all of their requirements.

There wouldn't be any new government buildings. I don't know how much building they did. All I know is that from ... A MEMBER: That keeps the money circulating. MR. DOERN: . .. from the Norquay Building, which was designed by the Liberals, and built by the Conservatives, to the Woodsworth Building, there were no buildings built of an office type, but, there was quite a growth in the Civil Service and there was quite a growth in the leasing. It's just that it's hidden, you see. It's not as obvious, so it may be politically astute, but factually they are leasing the same amount from private developers.

Now the garage that the honourable member refers to, I think is an attractive building. I happen to think that aesthetically, it's not bad. It's not an eyesore, it's not ugly, it's an attractive building and I see nothing wrong with maintaining part of it. Does my honourable friend want us to jockey all our cars from this area to Logan and Sherbrook to fill up a tank of gas? We have thousands of employees here. What's wrong with having a government gas pump? It makes good sense. I don't want our people spending time shooting down to Logan and Sherbrook to fill up and then come back.

We have the pumps there, we have some facilities there, we're going to retain a minimal amount. I think it makes good sense. Most of the repairs, most of the staff, most of the operation will all be transferred but I think to retain a facility for gas, oil and grease and washing, is simply so logical, I can't say anything more on the subject. MR. WILSON: The Minister is talking about an ever-expanding fleet. MR. DOERN: It'll expand under your government as well. MR. WILSON: Well, we've got 2,366 cars - you can correct me on the amount- and everything seems to be government.

Government gas pumps, government garage, now an ex panding government fleet. ! don't know, I guess if we're saddled with that, then our job as Opposition, is to then examine and ask some questions pertaining to the make-up of that fleet. The Minister indicated that they're now going into four years, 80,000 miles, I welcome that move. I think the City of Winnipeg has a policy where their mechanics look at it and each particular unit is judged on its merit. In other words, there are some cars that are good for 15 0,000 miles, and other cars which are lemons at 42,000.

So it has to do with each individual unit, from my experience in the City of Winnipeg. I wonder if the Minister has any penalty, or is it against union regu lations - I understand the MGE A negotiated this $27.00 a month. Is this $27.30 a month the total cost that an employee pays for driving one of these government cars? Because I might have missed part of it. Is there any penalty for - I guess I could use the word "padding". ls there any loss of pay or anything if one is caught padding mileage, etc., and wha t does the Minister think of my comment where we talk about a straight percentage reduction?

And also the fantastic loss of wages, they're recording their personal mileage, is there not some way, when they're brought in for a particular monthly oil change or whatever, because most of the cars are numbered, is there no way that a government staff person, rather than having the employees be put in the terrible position of having to keep track of their own personal mileage, and if they don't record it properly, be subject, if there is any penalty, for getting caught for padding or whatever? MR. DOE: Mr. Chairman, you pay $1 3.65 bi-weekly, which is about $30.00 a month.

For that you get your to and fro work and your mileage spent on government business. Over and above that, you have to, I guess indicate what you're spend ing on your personal business. In private industry, it's quite common to put down your mileage. The honourable member was in business for himself, I suppose he had to deal with Income Tax people and declare mileage and this and that. I worked myself several years in private industry and I remember driving around with a clipboard filling in trips and mileage. It's a nuisance, but it's not a government invention.

For every government employee doing it, there's probably ten in private industry doing the same thing. They're running around, either imputing mileage or directly recording mileage. The Police do it, the RCMP do it, I suppose, salesmen do, and so on. So it's not that uncommon. Now there are other questions which I have lost here. MR. WILSON: One was, why don't we do away with this expensive recording procedure if the Minister does not have any pena lty for padding or lack of recording or errors and omissions by employees. What is the procedure if there is no penalty clause?

If the unions have a contract that you could never dismiss anybody for whatever you want to call it, mistakes or obvious padding, then why bother engaging in the waste of so many valuable man hours that could be spent on more top priority things. MR. DOE RN: This was hammered out by the MGE A and the Management Committee of Cabi net. 1893

Thursday, April 14, 1977 The close checking has to come from the various departments. I don't want to have a big staff of Public Works personnel running around with lie detectors or quizzing people or tailing people. I think it's up to management. This is a correct function of the individual managers in the various departments. They should have an idea. They should occasionally do spot checks and so on, look at the expense sheets, that's a responsibi lity of administration, look for vouchers' etc., etc. That's about all I can say.

I don't feel it is a responsibility of Public Works, but it certainly is a responsibility of government and the line departments. MR. WILSON: I'll just close then. It would seem that there is nothing to be gained. If it's an administrative matter, in other words, the foreman's looking after it, we'll use the foreman as an example. If somebody brings in a car after two years with 80,000 miles and he's on a job where he should have only put on twenty, then he could be told he's using the car to excess for his own personal use. I think we have to do away with this. I agree with the Minister.

I don't think we should have a team of investigators investigating employees. If we can't have faith in our employees and the union that negotiates the contract, I think it's a waste of time and I think it's an opportunity for the Minister to make better use of his employees. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gla dstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think we pretty well have the electric cars figured out, but there's a couple of questions I'd like to ask. The first would be, what year were these vehicles purchased in? MR. DOERN: About 18 months ago, approximately. MR.

FERGUSON: They were all purchased at one time? MR. DOERN: Yes. We bought some sort of a truckload or whatever, one trailer full of electric vehicles came up from Cleveland. MR. FERGUSON: Could I ask the range between battery charges on these vehicles? MR. DOERN: I beg your pardon? MR. FERGUSON: The range between battery charges? They go 40, 50, 100 miles? MR. DOERN: I can tell you what we were promised and I can tell you what we got. We were told, at 60 miles an hour, you would get 30 miles on a full charge, and at 30 miles an hour, you would get 60 miles, just the opposite.

I'm told that now we're getting up to about 52 on a full charge. We have not had as good a result as promised, so I don't know what an average is, whether it's in the 40s, or the high 30s, or around 50. I just recall the other day getting a reportthat we had up to 52 on a full charge. Now again it depends on winter and summer. If it's winter, you undoubtedly get less. But you know, that's qu ite a few miles. You come from out of Winnipeg, but in Winnipeg if you drive3 0miles in a day that's a fair amount of driving. MR. FERGUSON: What voltage do they operate on? 110? 32? Or what? 110? MR.

DOERN: I'm not a scientist. I believe it's 110 volts. MR. FERGUSON: So roughly what would the battery requirement be? How many batteries would you have? They'd have to be hooked up in sequence and ... MR. DOERN: There are 16 full size regular batteries in the car, and of course, obviously you just don't put in 16 batteries and then plug it in. The technology is somehow or other to translate the 16 batteries together and drive the automobile so that is where the technology comes in. MR. FERGUSON: How many miles a year are these vehicles being driven? MR.

DOERN: Well, as I said, we have three cars, and I can only speak for ours. I recall a figure of 1,200, so I would say between 1, 000 and 1,500 miles, but I think now, as of the last month or two, that mileage is going to go up qu ite a bit. We don't deliberately intend to drive them ten or twelve thousand miles, but it should be a lot better than that. I'm not satisfied with that. MR. FERGUSON: I take it they're being driven roug hly less than 100 miles a month. Does this mean that the acceptance of the drivers isn't there, or what's the problem? MR.

DOERN: There may be some resistance on the part of drivers, but we seem to have no problem in that regard now. Part of that time they were out of service, as I said earlier. I don't know if the honourable member was here, but we have had some transformer problems, some charger problems, we have had problems trying to convert them from a 110 plug-in, taking 16 hours to a 220 plug-in which wou Id take 8 hours, and I think we have ironed most of that out now' and we feel now that we should not have - what's the jargon? "Downtime", as they say in the garage, less "downtime".

I wanted to show that I'm with it, by saying that. MR. FERGUSON: That's all, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, I asked the .Minister earlier, he said that the government has approximately 90 to $100,000 invested in these battery driven cars . . 1 asked him earlier what the cost was, per year, of operating them. He has answered the question to the Honourable Member for Gla dstone, that they have had the cars for approximately 18 months, or a year and a half. Can he give me the answer as to the upkeep cost? MR.

DOERN: I cannot provide that now, but we could dig in to that. I don't know if that's going to 1894

Thursday, April 14, 1977 take us hours, days or weeks, but I could not give the member that right now. MR. STEEN: That's fine, Mr. Chairman, I have the assurance from the Minister that he will provide members of the committee with that cost in due time? MR. DOERN: Right. MR. STEEN: The Minister has spent much time in the past hour talking about energy conservation and so on. We've also talked about the government garage and the need for keeping it as a wash rack and grease rack, using the terms that the Honourable Member for Wolseley uses.

I would say to the Minister that when we are in the process of conserving energy, why would we, as a government, and particularly the Department of Public Works, leave the lights of the Woodsworth Building on all night long, if we are in the throes of being an energy conserving type of government? MR. DOERN: First of all, I don't think they're on all night. I didn't look at them this morning at six o'clock, but I don't think they're on all night. Don't forget that there are cleaning crews that go in there and work on the offices. The original design of the build ing was, I guess, to do it by the floor.

There's some sort of a switch that turned on the floor. We're also changing that system to individual switching which I think will, in fact, conserve more energy. I thought we had that shaken out, so if the honourable member notices some night, early in the morning that the lights are still on, I'd like to know about it. I have issued several directives about turning off the lights. I assume they're being honoured. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, last night was a long night, so that's why I'm asking that question. I think, Mr. Chairman, we are in a position to pass (b)(1). MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 1 (b)(1).

The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. (PETE) ADAM: I just wanted to make one comment from statements arising from the Member for Crescentwood and the Member for Minnedosa. They are statements that just can't be allowed to go unanswered, because I believe they're a long way from being accurate, and that's when they state that if we're buying products from Ford or any other company that these vehicles have been completely tried out and run through the mill so that the people who buy them don't have to worry.

This is incorrect because it has been a practice, for many, many years thata lot of products are put on the market, whether they be electric cars or Ford cars. . . MR. DOERN: And recalled. MR. ADAM: ... that have not been built properly. For instance there was a class action, Ford started manufacturing cars in the early 19 00s and last year there was a class action on excessive rust. -(I nterjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. What is the point of order? MR. BLAKE: The point of order is that the Member for Ste. Rose is questioning some of the statements that were made on this side of the House.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the electric car or the question we're discussing, and if he wants to stick to the Estimates and ask questions of the Minister, I think that's quite in order, but I don't think his line of questioning pertaining to statements that were made on this side of the House has any bearing on what we're discussing tonight whatsoever. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Chair intends to give all members approximately the same amount of latitude in discussing an item under the Estimates. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR.

ADAM: I appreciate that because this point was raised by members of the Opposition to criticize the Minister, and since they opened that line of questioning, I think it's proper for us to reply to it. You know, in my own experience, my last vehicle that I bought, every 6,000 miles I had to hone down the rotors on the brakes, and you phone the Ford company here, they say, "Oh, well, it's your climate, you've got a lot of water". But you take it down to the dealer and you tell him, "Well, they told me in Winnipeg that. .. " MR. BLAKE: You should be dealing with your local garage at home. They look after you. MR.

ADAM: No, no, when you get back home, they say, "Well, he doesn't know what he's talking about in Winnipeg. We've had to hone down every car ... " -(lnt erjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR.ADAM: I'm talking about the dealer inSte. Rose.-(l nterjection)- Yes, butyou've gottogoto the head man here, the serviceman. And he just says, "Oh, that's ... , this is And that's not the only thing. So there have been all kinds of products put on the market, Mr. Chairman, that have not been tested, even in the implement field, ... A MEMBER: Some of them are sold in Ste. Rose, too. MR.

ADAM: ... tractors, so that argument there, the companies by and large have used the people as guinea pigs to improve their products, and the consumers have paid. The consumers have paid and that's how they've improved their products. You can talk about Thalidomide, you can talk about 2-4D, it doesn't matter what you talk about. A MEMBER: Do you think the taxpayers in Manitoba are happy ... ? MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 1 (b)(1)- pass. (b)

(2) Other Expenditures. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. 1895

Thursday, April 14, 1977 MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, there is a substantial decrease here. Can the Minister explain why? I welcome the decrease, by the way, Mr. Chairman. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, there was a transfer out of Current to Capital of $1.7 million. MR. STEEN: Can the Minister explain why the transfer, Mr. Chairman? MR. DOERN: I lean on my accountants in the department and they tell methatthe reason is this is sound practice. Capital, I suppose, is something that has a life expectancy of more than twelve months.

That's a crude, simple explanation of how you impute values to things. So if it presumably lasts less than a year, it's Current; if it lasts over a year, it can be construed as Capital. So these vehicles last three or four years, it certainly makes accounting and economic sense to say that this is a Capital Expenditure. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister tell us what was spent by the Provincial Gover nment under this particular item in 19 76? MR. DOERN: Approximately $1 .5 million. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, one year the Minister says it's $1.5 million, then the second year it's $5.2 million and then this year it's $3.7 million. The Minister says that we have transferred $1.7 million to Capital. To me the figures just don't seem to jibe. All of a sudden, from 19 76 to '77, we have a substantial increase in this particular item, and then all of a sudden we have a substantial decrease. I really don't follow it and the Minister says, "Well, we're transferring items into Capital." I think the greatest game, Mr. Chairman, that anybody in public life can play is playing with Current and Capital Estimates.

He's answering one year saying that because the lifespan of an item is better than twelve months, we'll put it into our Capital Budget, and then the next year we'll come along and we'll say that the lifespan is 11 months, 3 weeks, and we'll put it under our Current Budge t. This is, in my opinion' the greatest con game that I've ever seen, this budgeting of Current and Capital. I went through it with the City of Winnipeg, and I'm not saying that this particular Minister or this government is the only one that's ever played this con game ... A MEMBER: You'd better believe it. MR.

STEEN: ... but anybody that knows anything about finances knows that it's the best con game this side of Las Vegas. MR. DOE RN: Well then, I have to tell the honourable memberthat one of the most adept people in this regard was Premier Roblin, because I recall that in the days when the Member for Crescentwood was an Executive Assistant and I was a member of the Opposition, I recall that the then Premier of Manitoba, who I think was a competent politician and the Minister of Finance, he moved some items from Current to Capital and back again. I recall that quite distinctly. I can't give him

chapter and verse, but I certainly recall debates in that particular regard . These figures are confusing because, for instance, I gave a figure of a replacement cost of $1 .76 million which was transferred from Current to Capital, and that was for one quarter of the fleet, or 600 vehicles that were traded that particular year. So I guess our policy was to turn over one third of the fleet annually, and that was for 600 vehicles, 25 percent of the fleet moved from Current to Capital. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, I think that the Honourable Minister and I arrived at one decision last night, and that was that two "Wongs" don't make a right. MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I was wondering if the Minister would care to tell me where the expenditure would show up. Again, he didn't break it down for us and I' m not aski ng him to break it down into fine detail but I wondered , in his battle with the political activist, Ken Arenson, would the cost of acquiring the homes for his government garage appear in Other Expenditures anywhere? Where would it appear?

Is it a cost directly attributed to the Central Provincial Garage, or would that come under the Capital? MR. DOERN: I think that would be better described and discussed under Land Acquisition. A Capital item. I have Mr. DeZeew waiting patiently for that. MR. WILSON: Under Land Acquisition? MR. DOERN: Yes. MR. WILSON: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 1 (b) (2) . The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, it is my understanding then that the Minister has answered the question 8 as to the decrease this year in the 19 78 Estimates, that it's because they are not replacing the fleet of cars at the same rate that they were in the past, and through a change in budgetary practices. Is that correct? MR. DOERN: That's correct. MR. STEEN: Fine. Mr. Chairman, pass the item, please. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 1 (b)(2)�pass. (b)-pass. Resolution 10 1 (

c) Office Equipment Branch.

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Would the Minister inform the members of the Committee as to the numbers of persons that are employed in this particular division? MR. DOERN: Nineteen, which was the same as last year. 1896

Thursday, April 14, 1977 . MR : STEEN: Mr: Ch�ir_m_an, it would be my understanding that the Office Equipment Branch is pri� arily a purchasing d1 v1�1on of the government purchasing office equipment for the government, or 1s there a degree of maintenance involved as well? MR. DOERN: Purchase, repair, and maintenance. MR. STEEN: _Mr. Chairn:1an, to the Minister, what percentage of the 19 persons' time on the job would be spent in purchasing and what percentage in maintenance? � R_. DO�RN: There are eight repair and maintenance people, and the remainder is clerical and adm1n1strat1ve. MR.

STEEN: I thank the Minister for the answer. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I might add I hope that the members of the Opposition are not opposed to elect1·ic typewriters. MR .. STEEN: No, no. On Mr. Chairman, we that very note, certainly are not opposed to electric typewriter� because they are a proven commodity and I believe that an electric typewriter and a battery-driven car are two separate commodities. MR. DOERN: Although the gas-fi red typewriter is still in the developmental stage we'll have to see what happens to it. ' MR. STEEN: Fine. I welcome the gas-fi red typewriter at the time that it is available.

A MEMBER: It's a gas-fired Minister we're worried about. MR. STEEN: I'm just hoping that the Minister doesn't take too much gas. MR. DOERN: Gassed-up members of the Opposition. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: How many machines - I guess we consider a typewriter a machine - how many machines has the Minister got? I notice in his last year's report he had about 11 ,283. I wonder how many he has this year? MR. DOE� N: There are 14 ,_000 machines. This really is a complex field. You can imagine all the calculators, dictators, everything. Four thousand are typewriters. MR.

WILSON: Well, I'm pleased the member told us that he had the 4,000 typewriters. MR. DOERN: Two tyrants. MR. WILSON: I notice at a lot of the auction sales there's a lot of sort of obsolete equ ipmentthat is going for a very nominal sum. Could the Minister indicate, in his opinion, in his overseeing of the equipment, would he say that our government is fairly modern in its approach to equipment, or do we still have the old Burroughs Bookkeep ing Machines and things like that, or are we fairly modern in this area?

While the Minister is getting that advice, I'll also add, could he explain how his Crown Assets disposes of all his equipment and the bidding of it? I noticed that when he was building his new restaurant downstairs that there was about $30,000 worth of stainless steel equipment in the halls for the longest time. I wondered, under this item, is there any revenue side to this' or is this the expense side? In other words, are we talking about $728, 10 0 as the expense side? Where does one find the revenue side? MR. DOERN: Just on the first part, I think that this branch operates in the modern sense.

I have some confidence in Mr. Smith, who's the Director, and I guess Bruce Hudson is the No. 2 man in terms of this department, a curler of note, as you may recall. Most of our old machines are traded in and we charge rental rates which are cost-recoverable, and I guess we break even in this department. Zero budge ting. Now, he talked about stainless steel equ ipment. Yes, we have purchased a considerable amount for our restaurants, but I think you would agree that stainless steel practically lasts forever and has a life expectancy of decades unless it's broken or smashed or burned.

JusUrom ordinary wear it lasts for an indefinite period of time. MR. WILSON: What I'm asking is that I just wanted the Minister to go over, I call it, for lack of a better word, the Crown Assets Disposal . He mentions that they trade in the equipment. Is he engaging in any leasing, or does the government strictly have a policy of purchase?

Secondly, under this Crown Asset Disposal, when there was about $30,000 worth of stainless steel equipment in the hallways when he was building his new restaurant, what other government department was given to to set up another restaurant or sold? was it Because, if the Minister said it had a twenty-year life expentancy, why would the Minister sell it? Was it of no use to the government or did he sell it? MR. DOERN: In the first instance, our policy is to purchase, but some companies won't sell. So, if they have that type of a policy then we, in fact, lease from them.

In terms of equipment downstairs, I really don't know how long it was down there, but bear in mind, if you recall the kind of facility that we had in this building - I think it was a disgrace. I can recall coming here as a student in Gr ade 9a nd I saw the facility at that time, and I recall only a few years ago the cafeteria in the Legislative Building, which was a dark, dull di ngy facility, there were no windows as you recall, because it was under the main stairs at the back, and I think we made a considerable improvement. We expanded the size, 1897

Thursday, April 14, 1977 probably double or more, of the cafeteria and it's now a rather cheery place. Then, of course, we built a restaurant and lounge for the Members of the Legislature, which is in place in seven or eight of the other provinces as well as Ottawa, so we expanded the operation considerably, and I would assume that the other equipment was either obsolete or inadequa te. So, for that reason we had to build a new kitchen. I'm informed that we recycled some $350,000 worth of assets of surplus equipment and material throughout government departments and $30,000 was picked up in auctions. MR.

WILSON: I wondered, has the Minister done an evaluation, I notice it's been a fairly new thing since the Minister took over this portfolio. Does the Minister not find - and might I suggest that public auctions seem to establish a fair value, and certainly the Minister would be not subject to criticism or favouritism if it was sold at public auction - I wondered if he has now gone into that particular situation? I remember attending one for forty-year old broken desks and finding that the cheapest one went for about $40 or $50 and I wondered if the Minister is going to expand upon that program he's entered into?

In other words what I was asking is, what is his method of disposing, does he have a tender system or is he going to the auction system is what I'm trying to establish? MR. DOERN: We have both. We have really experimented with car auctions in the last couple of years and I think we deduced that we come out ahead, $1 00 a car. It doesn't sound like much, but when you auction a couple of hundred cars it amounts to a fair amount of money.

Similarly, I guess, we've auctioned off some equipment in terms of machines -very little- and of course in terms of furniture, we mentioned that we have about half a dozen, but I don't think there's too many bargains there. I think that generally whatever is good we use. Whatever is about to fall apart we sell for fall-apart prices. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 1. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Under Office Equipment, I imagine, Mr. Chairman, that that's a fairly broad topic.

Therefore, I'd like to ask the Minister if he would inform the members of the Committee the difference in the arrangement that the Provincial Government has between the cafeteria in the Woodsworth Building and other cafeterias. There is obviously a difference because almost every person in town is bragging about, not only the quality but the quantity of food that one receives at the Woodsworth Building. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I'd be very happy to discuss this item.

I spoke to my man in the Woodsworth Building who I think is a superb operator, and he was very upset by some of the criticism in Vic Gr ant's column, and I've had a number of people speak to me about it and to him about it. That doesn't fall under this department. I think, perhaps we could discuss that under my Salary, or something else, but I'd be happy to have an airing of the subject, but it's not Office Equipment. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, other than the Minister's Salary, I'll ask the question to you directly.

Do you see a specific item in the Department of Public Works that I can ask that question under, other than the Minister's Salary? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair was looking through the list for it, and it would seem that since we have passed Operation and Maintenance of Provincial Buildings, that the honourable member would be advised to ask those questions under the Minister's Salary. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, the reason I asked that was both the Minister and the Member for Wolseley talked about the cafeteria within the Legislative Buildings and you permitted that subject to be carried on, so I thought that you were expanding upon, and broadening upon, the ground rules for Office Equipment Branch. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 1 (c)(1 )-pa ss (c)

(2) Other Expenditures. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. Can he just give us a very brief outline as to how almost half a million dollars is spent in this particular area. MR. DOERN: $491 ,000, and I can give you the big figures. There are three of them, Replacement of typewriters, etc. $1 03,000; Repairs, contracts, etc. $1 1 8,000; Stationery $1 90,000. MR. STEEN: I have one question, Mr. Chairman, the Minister mentions one of the larger items is $1 03,000 in typewriter replacement.

Can the Minister tell me what percentage of typewriters are replaced each and every year? MR. DOERN: They have a ten-year life cycle. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: One question came to mind. Is it a legal problem or what, because I notice when a lot of the government-owned -they call them autonomous- corporations go bankrupt, there's a lot of equipment in these large plants and large facilities that are fairly new, because usually the fellow gets in there and hits the government up for a quarter of a million dollars and then he's gone and all this equipment is sitting there.

It seems invariably it's sold at auction for a very small percentage of its true worth, and I was wondering is it possible for the government to go in there, and because it is the government's business, is it possible for the governmentto go in there and acquire this equipment for use in it's -I don't know if it's called a warehouse - do you have any central storage area where you 1898

Thursday, April 14, 1977 store equipment? MR. DOERN: In this instance the assets are held by the Crown corporations in their own name, so they are charged with disposing of their own assets. MR. WILSON: So, in other words, it's autonomous. MR. DOERN: Yes. MR. WILSON: Does the Minister have a central warehouse where he has, sort of, a floating inventory? MR. DOERN: I guess our central depot is 263 Henderson Highway. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 1 (c)(2)- pass; (c)-pass. Resolution 10 1 (

d) Purchasing Bureau

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. Can he inform the Committee as to the number of persons involved in this particular spot. MR. DOERN: Forty-two, and that is the same as last year. MR. STEEN: Fine, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 1 (d)(1) - pass; (d)

(2) Other Expenditures. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister. Under Office Equipment the Minister mentioned that there was $1 03,000 worth of typewriter replacements. Now we're under Purchasing Bureau and there's Other Expenditures of $98,400 which is down from last year. Can the Minister explain the function of the Purchasing Bureau, Other Expenditures (

a) and then, (

b) the reason for the decrease, which I we lcome. MR. DOERN: There's a $50,000 study for design and computerization which was a one-shot deal last year. In terms of the other costs, do you want a breakdown of the $98,000? MR. STEEN: I would like the Minister to tell us just a bit more about that $50,000 study if he wouldn't mind. MR. DOERN: PBIS - Purchasing Bureau Information Service System: Major Objectives - how to do business. There's been insufficient information to affect some identification of consolidation, identification to measure Manitoba's suppliers participation, local purchasing and so on. And there were apparently these five objectives:

(1) To identify commodities applicable for consolidation, by period, by government department, by region and method of acquisition. Precasting, forecasting government requirements where there were similar commodities.

(2) Where they are bought on a recurring basis.

(3) To allow measurement of vendor performances by period, by performance criteria.

(4) To measure cost and volume variances from period to period, for example: material shortages like in tires, or steel, etc. and (5) to analyse purchasing methods. Probably the best way to summarize what we were attempting to do is to develop a balanced approach, to promote more local and regionalized purchasing, to promote consolidation and to promote Manitoba participation. I think the members will recognize that Purchasing can be a pretty effective tool providing you have a handle on it, provided you bulk buy, providing you consider, and there are pros and cons favouring Manitoba manufacturers etc.

Just to give you an estimate of some of these expenditures, total purchasing for example, in 19 77 was $70 million. So, if you can effect economies you might save millions. For this fiscal year, estimated at $75 million, and by 19 80-81 $1 12 million. So, there's some big money here and there could be some sign ificant economies if you know what you're doing . MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister tell us who did the study for the department? MR. DOERN: This study was undertaken internally. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, was the study being done internally?

Was it done by permanent employees that are no longer with the department now, when he gave me the figure of the personnel complement of being 42, or was it done by employees that are still within that complement? MR. DOERN: No, it was done by our personnel and they're all still happy in the service. And, secondly a good portion of that was for computer costs. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, then I gather from the Minister's comment that only a small portion of the $50,000 allotted to the study was for wages. The salaries would have appeared in the budget under the normal allocation for salaries. MR.

DOERN: The breakdown was along these lines, our own staff salaries were not included, that was just part of the regular system. There was one person on contract, a Systems Analyst who has since been taken on, transferred , and is still with us. So, therefore, there is about $1 1 ,000 paid to him and $39,000 would be computer costs. MR. STEEN: That's fine, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR.

WILSON: I wondered if in dealing with the computer ' study - I appreciate that this may not be, the Minister can answer me - but was this the study that ind icated that the computer company that the Manitoba Telephone System took over for $8 million, $9 million, $10 million that found out 1899

Thursday, April 14, 1977 that a lot of the equipment was obsolete? Would this be under this section? MR. DOERN: Apparently this was done through MDS, Manitoba Data Services. MR. WILSON: In discussing, he said the word "vendor performance." Was this pertaining to vendoring systems throughout the government build ings? What does he mean by that, vendor systems? · MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DOERN: I think that the word is confusing between vend ing machines and vendors.

These are simply people who sell to the government a host of products and it is an assessment of their performance, how they perform, how they deliver, how they respond, etc. MR. WILSON: Then if we are dealing with a thrust toward buying Manitoba and we are then going to examine performance, how are we ever going to get around to the day when we are going to be able to get Manitoba vendors to perform like some of the eastern suppliers? And does this study indicate that there is not that much difference, that it is worth it to buy Manitoba? And my last question is one of alarm.

Is this Minister telling us, did I hear right, that this year the government is projecting $75 million in purchases with the future projection $1 12 million? Because it would seem to me that the Minister has a tremendous responsibility here and so do his staff to try to control government spending and this does not indicate, it is quite a jump from $75 million to $1 12 million. I wonder if he could repeat that again so that I could properly absorb those shocking figures. MR.

DOERN: Well, when you consider all the requirements of government that are purchased centrally, you are dealing with a sizeable figure and there is no need for alarm. We are buying for hospitals, we are buying for vocational schools, we are buying automobiles, we are buying, I guess , cans of soup, everything you can think of, food. And yes, it adds up to a great deal of money but the Manitoba Government is a large corporation and I think that this figure should come as no surprise. I assume that the honourable member didn't think that our total purchasing would be a couple hundred thousand dol lars. MR.

WILSON: No, I can't quite agree with the Minister, "There is no need for alarm," because however there could be some benefits to the large government spending if this government doesn't want to control it, in that if they were to purchase through Manitoba they might be able to stimulate some small businesses which would actually be the rolling drum system which might indeed project a very viable small business opportunity for the future. So if the Minister has some encouraging words in those areas, then it might offset the shock of the projected $1 12 million government spending project.

I did want to ask the Minister one other comment. The Member for St. Johns referred to a lot of blood-letting in Cabinet and I wonder if the Minister had to go back to his staff and cut back on a lot of purchases this year. Would the Minister be able to say how much blood-letting was there for him in his cutbacks in this area? MR. DOERN: There are, I suppose, a number of ways in which the government can effect restraints. One of the best is of course on the staff man years and if you can keep staff man year increases to a minimum, as we have, you save a considerable amount of money.

I am not sure of the exact figure but I guess for every SMY that you hire, there are several thousand dollars worth of furniture and furnishings that is required, there is leased space that you have to provide, and then there is a salary and other benefits. So because of a very minimal increase in the size of the Civil Service, I don't know if it is zero but it is a handful of employees, that has helped a great deal. The other thing I wanted to point out to the honourable member is thatabout$15 million worth of our purchases comes from what you would characterize as small business in Manitoba.

I don't think any province wants to buy only from within its borders. You know it would be very patriotic but very expensive. It would be like having a huge tariff barrier and you have to strike a balance between buying the majority on the outside and trying to, at the same time, foster some development of local industries. So I don't know where that exact balance is but we don't want to only buy out of province and we don't want to only buy in province.

We want to have competition from the outside and all other things being equal, we favour the Manitoba manufacturer but we don 't, say, allow ten percent difference or something because that cost would also have to be borne by the taxpayer. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister if there is a group of people within the department set up to decide on what goods to purchase, what brand or what quality? MR. DOERN: Yes , the Purchasing Bureau does that. MR. ADAM: This group sets the standard or the quality?

Have they expertise in every field of purchases? MR. DOERN: Apparently we are just moving into that area. We are now working on standards and specifications in food and then we are going to go to lumber and so on. I think that is a very slow process and we are starting that process now. I also wanted to add in my answer to the Member for Wolseley that we do allow a ten percent differential in favour of . Manitoba manufacturers in sheltered workshops, which are handicapped 1900

Thursday, April 14, 1977 people, etc. MR. ADAM: Are there any outside people or suppliers that would be in this group? Would there be any suppliers of merchandise that would be on the group to set the standards of the.goods that you purchase at any time? MR. DOE RN: The decisions are made by the representative of the line department in conjunction with the Purchasing Bureau's agent. The two of them make that decision. MR. ADAM: So therefore there is never at any time, now or in the past, that there would be a supplier discussing the merits of a certain product, standards of a certain product. MR.

DOERN: I suppose it is done indirectly. These people do not serve on the committee butthey obviously deal with the line departments and the purchasing agents and I think have an opportunity to sell their product and explain their product and demonstrate their product. In that sense they have an input. MR. ADAM: Then somebody supplying, say, septic tanks or the like, every supplier would have an opportunity to ... I am just using that as one example. MR.

DOERN: Yes, his aim would be to get on our tender list and he would have an opportunity to, like any other salesman or company representative, to sell his product, explain his product, demonstrate it, etc. MR. ADAM: Then how would he go about getting on the tender list? MR. DOERN: We have a pamphlet, we have procedures. I assume we talk to anybody who comes in and wants to get on the list. Anybody who has a viable product and production can get on the list and he is informed ... MR. ADAM: I see, it is not restricted in any way? MR. DOERN: No. MR. ADAM: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley.

MR. WILSON: I have to not completely agree with that statement.-(ln terjection)- Yes, I know he did but the point is that it has been brought to my attention in the area of some of the medical products that you buy that you have different boards that are set up. For instance, in the area of wheelchairs, the government only buys from one company and there doesn't seem to be any ... Mr. Ragsd ill is supposed to be in charge of that but he can't make the decision because he has to go to some wheelchair board or something. So I just draw it to the Minister's ...

I am aware that statement that has been made is not exactly correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 1 (d) (2)-pass. (d)-pass. Resolution 10 1 (

e) Materials Branch

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister tell us the number of persons involved here? MR. DOERN: Thirty-four SMYs, the same as last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 1 (e) (1 )-pass. (e)

(2) Other Expenditures. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Briefly, Mr. Chairman, can the Minister ... I welcome the reduction. Can he tell us how he was able to reduce the expenditure on this particular item? MR. DOERN: We purchased a fork-lift truck, which was a non-recurring expenditure and there was a reduction in printing and stationery. Well, we were all told to cut down on budgeting for travel and stationery, etc., to make reductions, make economies, and we have all tried to live up to that. MR. fork-lift STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, was the forklift truck not thought of by the department as a capital item? MR. DOERN: We will consider your recommendation. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, the reason I asked that question is simply that earlier in the Estimates the Minister said that something that had a lifespan of better than twelve months, he often thought was a capitalized item. That is my reasoning for that question. MR. DOERN: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 1 (e)(2)-pass. (e)-pass. Resolution 10 1 (

f) Telephones (1 ) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister inform us as to the number of persons in this particular division? MR. DOERN: Twenty-eight, the same as last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, my question just might come under (2) in relation to Other Expenditures, but I will ask it anyway.

The time we had the printing of the statutes and they were put in loose-leaf style, there was a phone book that came out which was in loose-leaf style and we had to do was change it and we were told it was a big improvement and I thought it was an improvement and I think many people did. But what we have the next year is a telephone book where it has got all the names, it is just made like a book and you can't change any ofthe sheetsand they are very poorly marked on the corners and I think that this time you didn't make an improvement, you 1901

Thursday, April 14, 1977 went backwards. How do you feel about it? MR. ooeRN: I think that is sort of ad ebatethat cannot be resolved. I have heard both sides of that argument. Some of my people lean to the loose-leaf, some lean to the single book. There is really no answer. Our original plan was to bring out a bound book as we now have, twice a year. But because of the restraint program we decided to go with one but I would remind the Member for Pembina that his MTS book for Winnipeg and for rural Manitoba doesn't have any indexes in it, doesn't have any loose leaf pages, and nobody ever thinks about it.

It never occurs to us that it should be a loose-leaf or shouldn't be a loose-leaf and I think that the moment you print the telephone book, any telephone book, it is out of date. As soon as it comes out it is out of date because the next day there are twelve changes. So you could have pages and inserts coming out every single day of your life and although I have heard some suggestions, I haven't heard really too many complaints. And I just think it is like a metaphysical debate, there is just no answer to that. MR. HENDERSON: Mr.

Chairman, I justdon'ttakeyour answeron face value at all because I think anybody who has been using that book really feels that you went backwards in it. And besides that, that new book here, you can't thumb the corners of the different departments as you go through. You have to just wait and see as it flicks. You know you have to catch it right there. There is no place where you can put your finger in and open up in that department. And I think that your comparing it to the rural book is just nonsense. You are comparing apples to oranges or you haven't got a good comparison at all.

I don't know how many you have interviewed who think you've made an improvement, but most anybody I have heard talking, they all figure it was really wrong because the other way, if any of your Ministers changed or somebody in the department changed, all you had to do was change that sheet. MR. DOERN: My honourable friend may be conscientious, but I can tell you that before we did this, I looked at some of the books and I can tell you that it wasn't uncommon to find a book that had pages in it that were five, six, seven years out of date. Two or three was as common as anything.

Very few people conscientiously made their inserts and some of them had books that were years out of date. They just never bothered . You would have to rely on people to make the changes and to delete and add the pages and that wasn't being done. You may have done it but many people weren't doing it. MR. HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, you can argue it that way if you like. But even when you did make this other book, if you'd made it so at least you could see the lettering of the different departments, you know, so if you haven't got them- MR. DOERN: You'd like it like in a dictionary where the ... MR.

HENDERSON: Yes, something like that. It really would really help an awful lot. I saythatthat book is just a farce, and that's all. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member tor Wolseley. MR. WILSON: The Minister talked about a staff complement of 28. I noticed in Public Accounts, it looks like five gir ls here. Where do they come from? Do they have similar training to the Telephone System ... are they the telephone operators? How would their wages compare to the MTS? MR. DOERN: I suppose most, if not all, most have had previous switchboard experience. They perform almost identical functions to MTS personnel. MR.

WILSON: Then, how would the other 23 staff members be made up? What type of ... how would they be? Under what kind of work? A last question maybe, seems kind of irrelevant' but has the Minister had . in his term of being Minister, any inquiry or has there ever been any scanning for bugging of government& telephones under this section. Has there ever been a scanning? MR. DOERN: Out of 28, there is one supervisor and 27 switchboard operators throughout the province. MR. WILSON : Throughout the province? Oh yes. Okay. MR. DOERN: No, wait a minute. Correction.

There are two supervisors, one clerical and the remainder are switchboard operators. In terms of bugging, although people, I think sometimes think that their phones are bugged, including many friends of mine, who talk to me on the phone and sometimes one does hear weird things on the telephone, I really have not had, that I can recall, any complaints or any checks made on those complaints. I think all of us have those suspicions. I think paranoia is not uncommon to politicians. I don't mean classical paranoia, but I mean tendencies of being uneasy about conversations, documents, telephone conversations, etc.

I think all of us are aware of our responsibilities and we're concerned about people hearing and seeing things that they have no business hearing and seeing. But I have not had any requests to check out a telephone. And I think some people are also rather uneasy about that, with somebody coming in, looking at the telephone with the objective of finding a bug, maybe that person would place a bug in there. I think that's the other side of the coin. So, I would say if any of the members of the Opposition have that feeling, MTS would immediately check it out, or they could draw it to my attention.

I'd be happy to have someone 1902

Thursday, April 14, 1977 come out, because we certainly wouldn't want people to be harbouring that suspicion. MR. WILSON: The last question then. There is a security system that periodically checks to see that the switchboard plant is one of just ladies performing their duty and no eavesd ropping. Okay. Just checking out the system. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 1 (f)(1). - pass; (f)

(2) Other Expenditures. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: One question, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister tell us, following up on the question earlier asked by the Member for Pembina, is there a great difference in the cost of the telephone directory from the present form to the form that the Member for Pembina was asking? MR. DOERN: I think, Mr. Chairman, we'd have to dig that up. We certainly know what the new ones cost, although I don't think we have that handy. But we can certainly dig that up. MR. STEEN: Would the Minister undertake to provide the committee with that answer? MR.

DOERN: If we can get it tomorrow, we'll provide it tomorrow. MR. STEEN: Can the Minister give us a breakdown as to what the $1.1 million is spent on in the way of Other Expenditures? MR. DOERN: The main expenditures there are $46,000 of fees paid to MTS for consulting work and the big item is $594,000 for telephones rentals, taxes' etc., and then $429,000 for WATS lines, wide-area telephone service. And there is savings and economic advantages to buying WATS lines. One-third the cost, I guess that's direct distance dialing within the Province of Manitoba. Cheaper than person-to-person calls .. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, can the Minister .... These WATS lines are obviously used by all departments of government, but are charged under Public Works, rather than charged to the various individual departments. MR. DOERN: Yes. Right. We buy in bulk. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 1 (f) {2) - pass. (f) - pass. The Honourable Memberfor Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I move that the Committee rise. We haven't got a quorum, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise and report. Committee rise. 1903

. THE LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Thursday, April 14, 1977 ESTIMA TES - NOR THERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. William Jenkins (Logan}: When we rose at 4:30, you were on Resolution 94(a) (2) . The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, before we adjourned there were a few questions asked by the Member for Portage la Prairie and the Member for Lakeside. The Member for Lakeside asked about the North lands Agreement and the places in which to discuss it.

The North lands Agreement, which I am the Provincial Minister who is signatory to the same, affects a number of departments and not specifically, although perhaps the most specific place would be under our Development Resources, a

section who are the people who co...:ordinate the agreement and see that other departments are also carrying out their parts of the agreement which would be then, (1) (b)(3 ). So that the member has some information to look at, in case he wants to examine it before we get to (1 )(b ) (3), I will distribute these, Mr. Chairman. I have five copies so I don't know how you want to deal with those.

The other thing that the Member for Lakeside mentioned was the - well he said basically that it looked, and sounded pretty good but what are the basic effects in the community, and what are the basic effects of programs in the community, and what benefit do community people get directly from the programs. What I would like to do as we go into each

section is to comment in some detail on the nature of that program and how it affects people at the community level. So then, rather than try and deal with the whole departmental program now and how the people in the community benefit directly from it, I will do that as we hit each operational

section of the department. That will give me the opportunity to use some specific examples. I think that from what I have been able to see in the rest of Canada, that we have in Manitoba probably some of the more unique and more effective programs in this area, and this would give me a chance to comment on them in some detail as we get to that particular section. To put my remarks as we get to each

section into context, I would just like to make a few more general comments before we get into each specific section. Therefore, maybe complete some of the remarks I had in terms of the economic development, so that it will help members to understand these programs as we get to each one. In my �)(perience, and our limited experience in Manitoba so far, it seems that to bring_ about economic development at the community level, there are a couple of keys - there are a lot of things that have to happen. If there are two things that aren't there economic development projects won't go. One is the community attitude.

If the proper community attitude is not present a development project won't go, and if proper management is not present the economic development project will not go. I suppose in the community attitude, or the community psychology, one of the concerns that I have, and I think that people working in a developmental way have, is that there are occasionally in some communities what I call a welfare psychology.

I think that you can understand historically how that developed when government programs - at one time Indi an Affairs Programs, for example- or provincial programs were basically imposed or sent into a community - someone came into the community and would say there's going to be a bridge built here or a dock built there. The community had no involvement in making that decision and people in the community would say, well all they said they were going to do here was build a dock. If we can make that work last for three months, then we have three months work instead of two months work.

In some communities an attitude has developed, well, this is a government project or this is a welfare project and it doesn't matter if we produce; it doesn't matter if we do a good job. Unless that attitude is dealt with, then the economic development project in a community is not successful. So we want to, I suppose, to develop ways in which the community is involved in the project; that the community then has the responsibility, or feels a responsibility or basically has the commitment that that is a deve lopment project that they have to make go. It is their development projectthatthey have to make go.

So without that type of attitude present, the project itself probably won't be successful. The other key that I mentioned is management and I think that with the very limited experience, under the previous government, in Northern Manitoba, they did have some problems. I can think of a case of Easterville Co-op where people didn't qu ite understand what the Co-op was all about and where the management basically reported to Winnipeg and not to the local people, so the local people had no commitment to make that store go.

Or I can think of a case where a manager was a local person who got all the benefits out of the project and nobody else in the community did. The proper management was not available in that particular case. Another case where a manager appointed had very luxurious tastes and flew back and forth to Winnipeg, etc., and caused the project not to go again because of lack of appropriate management. So, this is one of the key elements. you can run into a number of different problems besides the ones that previously were experienced. For example, you could have sort of a very strong manager 1904

Thursday, April 14, 1977 who might be very capable of managing his own business, but he is sort of a dictator of his own business and isn't able to relate to the local people. Usually then he loses the community commitment to the project and the project doesn't succeed, it does fail. The other is the attitude of a manager that he doesn't expect very much. Well here I am, the government is involved in this project, it's in a remote community or native community and it doesn't matter if we produce very much or not.

It is surprising that in a couple of cases there have been people who have managed their own business very effectively; when they were put in the management position with a community-type business have changed their attitude quite completely and it hasn't been very effective.

So basically, you know, to put it very simply, I think what you need is a kind of person who can relate to the community, who can involve the people of the community in the direction, and a person that helps them to understand what he is doing, how he is doing it, or why he is doing it, so that the people become committed to the full production of that particular . operation, so that they understand the importance of producing. Then if they don't produce the venture is going to fail and their community is going to lose that economic deve lopment opportunity.

This is not an easy combination to find but we are fortunate to have a number of managers of this type available and working in Northern Manitoba, and hopefully we will have more of them. But that is another key element amongst all the other things that have to happen to make economic development go. In the area of economic development, there is a couple of terms that some economists have given to names of things people in the north have been talking about for a long time.

One word is "convergence" and the other is" intermediate technology." As I mentioned before in my introductory remarks, what we have in the north basically now is people producing stuff to be exported south, and people producing goods from the south to be brought into the north, so we have the two-way transportation of goods. I think that what convergence means, as I understand it, is to use the materials that are available locally and to process and use them as much as poss ible locally, so that you are not so dependent upon imported goods and so that you are not so dependent upon outside markets.

This situation, as I mentioned before too, is similar, in remote northern communities , is similar to under-developed countries and that they have the same problem. In our case, we export furs and fish and forestry material and minerals and we import most of the consumer goods that we need in Northern Manitoba. So basically, convergence means that we supply more of our own demands, basically.

I think there's some example of this, and probably one of the better examples is Housing - where there is a real need for. housing in Northern Manitoba, and yet still and in the past, most of the materials for housing have all been imported. So is there not a way that we can make more use of the local timber resources for house construction. I think one area we've made that attempt is at Jen peg with the log machine to provide the basic wall material at least, for housing.

There are a number of other ways too, in terms of housing, where the local people are put to work using local material to try and produce the housing in the north. Probably another example of this principle of convergence is the community gardens, the greenhouses, and some cattle raising that's now going on in a place like Berens River which hasn't happened for very many years, so the people can supply some of their own vegetables and meat for their own consumption there.

I think another type of example is the possibility of furniture production in Northern Manitoba, using aga in, local resources so that this is not constructed somewhere else and then imported into the north. Another type of example is the materials that the province might need, for example; the Department of Highways, that it's going to use in the northern area. How much of that can we produce up there - like signs post and bridge materials. Another example is hydro poles, can we not produce more of those in Northern Manitoba for use in Northern Manitoba.

The other term that we have to use, in terms of economic development in the north, is the term intermediate or appropriate technology, and this can be explained fairly simply in that, atthestart of industrialization man developed certain machines. So you start at Phase I of that machine, then you develop it into Phase II and Ill and IV and V , but, somehow you get to Stage 15 , and all the other stages up until then are lost or forgotten, but, that machine, that new sophisticated machine, is no longer very valuable to a small community, to a remote community, or to an under-developed country.

Stage 15 is so elaborate or so capital intensive - it requires so much to buy it- that it's not useful in these kind of under-dev eloped areas. And Stage 1, on the other hand is still a horse and buggy situation, not very useful, so, there has to be some effort made to go back to Stage 8 or 9 and further refine that so it's useful, or to go beyond Stage 15 or to reduce Stage 15 to a useful kind of technology.

I think another way that this has been described is by the phrase that "small is beautiful," and the psychology of economic deve lopment or of industry has been for many years to make things bigger and better, and that that's automatically going to make for bigger and better development. And the concept of, "small is beautiful," is a turning away from that philosophy, to a philosophy that's more 1905

Thursday, April 14, 1977 useful in the under-developed areas or in the remote communities. There are some examples of that, I think for example that right now, with the present technology in terms of making chipboard, you need very large and sophisticated machinery, and probably the only place you could use it in Manitoba would be at The Pas or someplace where there isa large mill operation.

There have been people in the intermediate technology working group that have developed a very small portable type of chipboard unit, which could in fact be used in more remote locations where there are smaller sawmills, smaller developments. I think that another example would be that, again the log machine at Jenpeg.

I think a good example that we were deal ing with, and the Member for Lakeside will appreciate where we went to "big is beautiful," was the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation Plant·in Transcona, where had we adopted a different approach, we would have a much more decentralized facility, a less elaborate facility, but, one that could provide employment in remote areas, and causing the shipping of finished goods out of the north, doing the processing in the north ratherthan doing the processing in Transcona. Another example of this idea is portable fishing stations that are being developed.

Another example is a portable cannery that has now been designed and developed. Another very interesting area I think that demonstrates this principle too - I think the Member for Fort Rouge would be interested - is the look we are taking right now at a gasification unit, a wood burning gasification unit, because the cost of importing diesel fuel for electrical generation, for diesel generation, in remote northern communities is very high.

It appears now, from the preliminary studies, that we should be able to burn local wood products, gasify those, use those to run an adjusted or an adapted diesel generating plant, so that the fuel would no longer have to be imported, at least not to the same extent. There is a small requirement still for diesel to mix with the gas. This kind of an idea, I think, is one that bears looking at. It would help use up the by-products of some of the small sawmills up north or it could provide employmentfor about four people providing the wood to keep the gasification machine in operation.

So this looks like a practical way to look at economic development and intermediate technology. The Member for Portage asked some questions and I didn't answer them right away because he wasn't here, but I think I'd better deal with those. Well, I'll just eleaborate. He asked about the location of staff in the Department of Northern Affairs, and as I mentioned in my opening remarks, there are 308 permanent staff or regular staff.

There are 230 casual allocations which allows us to hire people on a casual basis, so in winter road construction season or in summer construction season, we may in fact go up to many hundreds more than that for a month or two and then reduce back down to very few people. That gives us the management authority to do that. So I have the figures broken down including those project casuals. I don't have the figures, I don'tthink, in terms of justthe regular staff man years, but including the casuals there are 448 positions in the north and there are 90 positions in the City of Winnipeg.

The Member for Portage also asked about the turnover within the department, and the average turnover is about ten percent within the Department of Northern Affairs, and I am not sure how that compares with other departments of government. I know that in terms of some of the mining operations, where turnover is up to 10 0 percent, it is a pretty favourable comparison. I indicated then to the Member for Portage that I would apply these figures to each

section as we got to it, so under the Executive of the department there were eleven staff man years last year, ten this year. There are three of those positions in the north, eight of those positions in the south. The turnover rate for the past year was 8.3, which means that one secretary left. There is some speculation there will be a greater turnover either this spring or this fall, but I am not sure on that matter. I am just checking, Mr. Chairman, to see if there is further information on this specific appropriation we are dealing with right now.

I think there will be some questions from members when we get to the Adjustment Administration section. I would like to explain that when we get there. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the information the Minister has given us, particularly with respect to the questions asked on the total number of employees. I mightadd one furtherquestion to that: Can he indicate to us, when next he has the opportunity, the number of contract employees that he employs within the department.

And I distinguish that of course from those, that he has already mentioned, that he terms casual employees, whose nature of employment I can understand, but it wou Id be helpfu I to know the number of persons under contract, and not specifically dedicated to the department in permanent positions. Mr. Chairman, I must say, as I suspect, and as many people in the north recognize, thatafter eight years the Minister really doesn't have an overall approach, a concept of a developmental nature that he brings to the north. You know, Mr.

Chairman, it's very nice to talk about "small is beautiful," it's very nice to talk about stages and develop in jargon the different kind of description for how man has advanced since Day One industrial age up to Stage 15 where all of a sudden he found that the 1906

Thursday, April 14, 1977 machine that he's now dr iving isn't necessarily the one that works in Berens River or Norway House. And I agree with the Minister, it's nice now to belatedly worry about the "big is beautiful" concept is wrong particularly as it applies to fish. I can tell the Minister that fish plant would never have been built under Conservative administration. Never. Never. And that's simply because of the matter, in this case it's a matter of "yes" ideology. We would not have been prepared to put out of business eight or nine smaller independent plants that existed in Manitoba.

In fact, it was that final stumbling block that had prevented us from coming to the final agreement with respect to the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. -(I nterjection)- Certainly. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister tor Renewable Resources. HONOURABLE HARVEY BOSTROM (Rupertsland}: ... stated.

I can't exactly give the member the source right now, but my information is that while the honourable member was the Minister, fighting and working tor the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, his colleague in Cabinet who at the time was the Minister of Ind ustry and Commerce, the Member for River Heig hts was working in opposite direction to the honourable member and attempting to establish the private fish companies as a group or an association which would in tact replace the concept of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. Is this not in tact correct? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I am pleased with the intervention because it is completely wrong, it is completely wrong . Yes, my colleague, the then Minister of Indus try and Commerce, was doing precisely what he ought to be doing, expressing a concern about the industry that we have in this province, and the eight or nine fishing companies that he was fighting for happened to be part of his responsibility and were benefitting the province's economy and the fishermen.

What we were unhappy with in terms of from the management of a primary resource, was the weakness of the fishermen, particularly of the native fishermen, to be able to cope with the buying and merchandising practices when put into competition with the hands of one or two very powerful buyers,

whereas back on the lakes they were selling the fish in the unorgan ized scattered hands of very many.

So the concept of a central selling desk was actively promoted not just by myself but by previous Ministers of the administration that I served , but the concept of centralizing into one large processing plant which is the very antithesis to what the Minister now would like to see developing in the north and has to a large extent secluded us from doing some, at least in this particular area, pretty important developmental work for what in many instances is still - and I agree with the Minister, it's still the God-given resource that is there, not something that has to be imported, not something that has to be dreamed out or steamed about.

And I don't fault the Minister or the department tor finding new innovative schemes of burning wood to run the diesel generators up there or to use more of our local resources such as timber tor the production of housing in the north. I may question him why we should be encouraging too many people in northern Manitoba to look tor telephone poles when we're busy putting all our cables underground throughout the rest of this country and the province. You know, th is is what bothers me, Mr. Minister, that I don'tsee an overall plan. I don't.

And I know you're not going to like the references back to the Interlake FRED Program, but it happens to be there, and we had a plan. I want to give the Minister something to gauge just how precise and how hard we worked at that. (

a) It took two or three years. I've got some books here that date back to '65 to '64 when the spade work was done - three years of work. It then set out very specific obligations. Just to give you some indication of how specific it was , even in the case of wild life -f or instance, the objective of the FRED Development Program in the Interlake was to provide sufficient habitat and management to sustain the following populations and wildlife: 25,000 white tail deer.

We even put a number on the number of deer we wanted in the Interlake; the number of moose; the number of elk; the number of sharp tailed and ruffed grouse; the number of Canada Geese. -(l nterjection)- We said the same thing with the farmers, yes we did. Here we have specific objectives: the agricultural objectives tor the Interlake area is a minimum of 3,000 commercial farms and ranches, each capable of providing an adequate living tor the operator and his family.

Then we set out what had to be done with respect to agricultural development of Interlake Crown lands, what had to be done with the development of markets, what had to be done with the encouragement of beef production, livestock production, what had to be done with respect to the encouragement of other agricultural productions. I'm using this in the sense that I see the specific objectives. And I want to tell you, Mr. Chairman, this government wisely saw fit not to tinker with that program.

It was a sound program, carried on where the provincial authorities at all times were masters of their house, even though they were spending in many instances 60-cent federal dollars. I thank the Minister tor providing us with the booklet that he did, and this is by the way, the very first material that I as an opposition member have seen with respect to the Northlands Agreement. I might pass this on to my Liberal colleagues here, because I doubt whether they've seen it.

I just want to indicate what worries me and read to you a little bit - I've just had the book for five minutes and listening to the Minister speak just reinforces what I think is essentially wrong. It's jargon. It's doub le-talk, and very little is really sticking to the ribs of the people that we're trying to help. For instance, in the Human Development and Community Service

section the Northlands 1907

Thursday, April 14, 1977 Agreement program will do this: "Prog ramming in this sector will facilitate assistance to families and communities in the provision of a social and physical environment conducive to improve the quality of life and participation of people in community affairs and development opportunities.

The provision of information and specifically this program may include the following: The provision of information and communication services which will facilitate exchange of information about governmental and other services which are generally available; assistance in deve loping communication ski lls of Northern Manitoba residents to permitthem to achieve greater participation in the public decision making processes. (

c) Mechanisms for participation in the overall social economic development of the community as a whole. For example, project so-and-so. (

d) Leadership training through 4-H North activities. (

e) Travel and certain cultural and recreational activities designed to provide young people from remote northern communities with the opportunity to broaden their horizons through contact with their fellow Manitobans within and outside ... "M r. Chairman, it's all lovely. It's fine. But if I come back to some of these communities five years from now or ten years from now, they may have learned to communicate very well. They may have learned to travel very well. They may well have broadened their horizons to the point that they're not there any more. But what have we left in a tangible way?

What have we left in a real and in a physical way for that area? I'm sugges ting, Mr. Chairman, throughout the eight years that this government has had the opportunity and expressed a great deal of concern, and had the total representation of the north in this House , that they have failed to do the homework necessary to bring about a proper developmental program for the north.

What most residents in the north believe, and they will in my judgment make that known to the gentlemen opposite at the next election, believe that, yes, substantial increase in public dollars have flowed into the north in the last eight years; a substantial amount of it has come right back out in the pockets of consultants, studies, bureaucrats and socio economic planners if you want to use that phrase. Mr. Chairman, I will proceed along with the Estimates at this point.

I would like the Minister to equip himself, with the aid of his capable staff, with some specific information as to the logging operations for instance at Jen peg of which I am somewhat apprised. The Minister talked about the round logs that were being made for possible housing use. Just what has happened? (a) - and these are the kind of questions, I think we on the Committee would like to know - number of people employed, the production of the plant and its acceptability. Mr.

Chairman, really the Minister doesn't impress me when he tells me that he has found a way of making a smaller chipboard making plant that can be used on every Reserve, or something like that. I must tell the Minister' the Chinese figured out a little while ago too' or some years ago, that it was really a lot of fun to have a little foundry in every peasant's back yard and everybody was making cast iron like crazy, except that it wouldn't stand up to any degree of acceptability in terms of modern application and it's turned out to be fiasco and a disaster.

So don't let me hear the Minister encouraging his residents in the north that they should tomorrow take on McMillan-B loedel and a few other little people in the chipboard and the plywood industry and do that with a straight face. If it's a question of using some of the local material for their own use and for their own immediate benefit, fine. But let's not build any economic hopes. Let's not build any false hopes of economic foundation where none exists. Mr. Chairman, what it really bespeaks of is a lack of skills on the part of some of the people that are directing the plans in this area. I know, Mr.

Chairman, thatthe Minister has one very great handicap to fight with, a very deeply entrenched bureaucracy in the federal Department of Indi an Affairs. I' m also well aware that the federal presence in the north is felt probably in a bigger way because of the fact that the federal government has the ju risdiction over a goodly number of the residents in the north, when we speak of the native people. But, Mr. Minister, we're not just speaking of native people, we're speaking of northern white communities. We're speaking about people that don't come under that framework.

There's a tendency, I think particularly with this Minister and with this government and this department, to concern themselves so solely with the problem of our native citizens, and it's certainly correct that most of his energy should be directed in that direction, but there are other people living under other circumstances that deserve and are looking for the kind of attention I think a government department should bring to people in the north. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to say a few words while we're still under this item, which is Policy and Program Development. I've been listening for the last little while to the Minister and the Member for Lakeside and it would appear that the Minister in the last couple of years has been spinning his wheels to quite an extent, and we don't know just exactly what is happening and what is taking place.

Because really you would have expected some course of action from the Minister, what is the plan and intention of the government as to what will take place in northern Manitoba, because you have the North lands Agreement which will involve some $13 8 million over five years. What is the course of action that this government intends to take? Surely the Minister would have been able to give us some kind of a plan that he can envision what will take place. He talked for about an hour 1908

Thursday, April 14, 1977 about fur trading and trapping and the Hudson Bay Company and what happened 200 years ago, when he introduced his Estimates, but really I would like to know what is the local development, what's happening in Northern Manitoba? We talked about fishing. And perhaps it's true four cents of grain that goes into a loaf of bread, but it costs much more to takethat loaf of bread from the bakery to the store. And it appears the same thing has been happening in the fishing industry. The major cost is bringing the raw fish to Winnipeg, the transportation.

It's $3.50 a pound, I'm told, in the City but only 40 cents is what the fishermen get up north. That's all they get, so where is the difference? It seems that the transportation is taking the big bite. So instead of transporting the raw fish, sure, it appears now that it would be much more worthwhile to have the processing plant somewhere up north, so we don't bring the raw material all this way and pay for the cost. But again we have no indication and no direction from the Minister what will take place. The other point, I understand it hasn't been too bad a year for trapping.

What is the trapping industry like in Northern Manitoba? What is the government doing to develop this industry better than it is right now? So again I'm concerned as well, Mr. Chairman, about manpower and training when today we have in The Pas, the Churchill Forest Ind ustry, very few people right in the lumber industry. We have very few native people in the pulp and paper plant.-( lnterjection)- The Minister of Mines and Natural Resources says it's not true. It's true.

There are people in the Woods Division, I'll agree, a good percentage of native people are in the Woods Division but when it comes strictly to the pulp and paper there are very few, almost none. So surely over a period of ten years or eight years now, we should have had some kind of a training program that there should have been more native people, because there's a lot of manpower required to handle, right in the pulp and paper. You have to take the wood in, the cords in, right into the pulp plant.

I know that there is a good percentage in the Woods Operation but certainly not in the Plant, so again it seems to me that we're not making much progress. The Minister can talk all he wants about the amount of money that he's spending but we also have to ask him, what are the results? What are the results? What is your specific plan of action that you're going to take? I'd be interested as Again we haven't got that. I'd be interested as well to know what's happening in the logging operation aside from the one that's connected with Churchill Forest Industries.

What is the government doing to institute a program of or grants loans designed to assist the small industry, the small business in northern Manitoba? There is none, I understand. - (I nterjection) - well, through the community economic development and through the co-ops, some co-operative progr

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-39b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 39b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	fc9a69eab07f3b8f16d29a87da3d0bc4e19a52b7

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