Manitoba Hansard — 16 April 1971 (Sitting 9, 29th Legislature, 3rd Session)

29-3-9

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Friday, April 16, 1971 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE 167 MR, SPEAKER: We are continuing the debate on the Throne Speech. The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR. WALLY JOHANNSON (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, may I first extend my con gratulations to you upon your election by the Assembly to the highest post it can offer. I trust you will find it more rewarding then your previous job as Government Whip which was a rather thankless and many times frustrating job.

In recent days I think you've done a remarkable job of keeping order among a rather garrulous and unruly lot, and I include the members on our side among that group. I feel confident that you will represent us very well. May I also extend my best wishes to the new Deputy Minister -- Deputy Speaker, pardon me -- I'm sorry he's not here because he would appreciate the congratulations, the Member for Winnipeg Centre. I should also like to congratulate the new members of the Executive Council - the Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Affairs who is also absent and the Minister Without Portfolio.

Finally, I should like to congratulate the mover and the seconder who are here, the mover and the seconder of the Address in Reply to the Throne Speech. Mr. Speaker -- (Inter jection) -- Oh yes, I already congratulated him on his assumption to the office of Deputy Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I should like to congratulate the Leader of the Official Opposition upon his election as Leader of the Progressive Conservati�e Party. I am confident that we can look forward to seeing his face in the front row on the opposition benches for a long long time, another 20 years or so. Mind you, Mr.

Speaker, I did have a few words of caution for him and I'm sorry he's not here to hear them. In one respect at least - and there aren't many respects, his party is radical - they believe in following the policies of the Committee of Public Safety which ruled France during the early and rather revolutionary phase of the French Revolution. France at that time was threatened by -- (Interjection) -- Well, there's nothing like learning from history. The opposition benches could do a little learning.

The Committee of Public Safety was ruling France at this time and France was threatened by foreign invasion and the army generals who were a conservative crew were losing battles. -- (Interjection) - I'm not a Conservative. The Committee of Public Safety adopted a very good policy. They cut off the heads of any general who lost a battle and pretty soon there were no French generals who lost battles. Now I don't know if the Progressive Conservatives in Manitoba could afford that sort of policy; I don't know if they have that many heads that they can spare. Mr.

Speaker, I would also like to recommend for the amusement and light reading of the Leader of the Official Opposition a recent publication by a Conservative Member of Parliament, Robert Coates, entitled "Night of the Knives. " The Leader of the Opposition should learn to guard his back and also to win elections. In spite of advice - wise advice I might add - from the Premier, the previous Leader of the Official Opposition did not learn those simple rules for any leader of the Conservative Party. May I also extend my congratulations to the new Leader of the Liberal Party who is unfortunately not with us.

After his able leadership during the by-elections, I feel confident that he will lead the Liberal Party grandly and magnificently, like Lord Cardigan led the charge of the light brigade, into oblivion. In fact the Leader of the Liberal Party reminds me a good deal of Lord Cardigan.

When Lord Cardigan became Colonel of the Eleventh Hussars he lavishly outfitted -- (Interjection) -- Hussars, pardon me, I stand corrected -- he lavishly outfitted his regiment with cherry-coloured tights, tight pants -- (Interjection) -- Lord Cardigan -- jackets and capes of royal blue trimmed with gold braid, high fur hats with brilliant plumes. Now that sounds a good deal like the image that has been constructed recently of the new Liberal Party. In Ste. Rose and in St.

Vital during the by-elections the Leader of the Liberal Party led his tro9ps into battle just like Lord Cardigan led the charge of the Light Brigade into the mouths of big cannons. Lord Cardigan had the heart of a lion. Unfor tunately, he had no brain and the results were a bit disasterous. I trust the Liberal Leader will continue what he describes as his successful leadership and I trust also that under his leadership Liberal MLA1s will soon be as easy to find in Manitoba as dinosaurs, and they're not very easily found.

168 April 16, 1971 (MR, JOHANNSON cont'd.) Mr. Speaker, it is traditional that in the Throne Speech a member sings the praises and glories of his constituency. However, in my constituency I have no winter fairs so I can't eulogize upon heavy and light horse competitions; I have no lakes or streams so I can't extoll upon the beauties of the natural surroundings of my constituency. -- (Interjection) -- No bulls in my com;; tituency. Now the Blue Bombers do play in my constituency in the Winnipeg Stadium and I'm afraid I can't say very much in praise of their exploits.

However, in view of the proclivities of some members and including some of the Blue Bombers, perhaps I should give the members a guided tour of the watering holes in my constituency. Even the most thirsty members will find a magnificent selection of bars in my constituency. I would even encourage freedom of choice. Mr. Speaker, there has been a good deal of opposition criticism of late about ·feather bedding in our civil service, particularly from the Honourable Member for Fort Garry.

He pursued this matter rather vehemently, claiming that our government has added some 700 plus members to the civil service and he raises the spectre of an uncontrollable mushrooming of government bureaucracy, and yet the opposition is a bit ambivalent on this matter. Whenever a rumour begins to float through the bar of the Manitoba Club that some civil servant is leaving, the opposition raises the spectre of a bloody purge of the civil service. I would. like to discuss our housing program in view of opposition criticisms.

They've I criticized us for growth of bureaucracy; they've also criticized us for lack of action on a good many things. I'd like to discuss this in view of the opposition criticism and as an example of how a major government program carried out our government's objectives. Under the Con- servative regime, which fortunately ended 20 months ago, the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation consisted of four employees - four. That would have made the Member for Fort Garry very happy. The Corporation occupied a couple of tiny rooms. Mind you, under the previous regime that was adequate.

After all, the Conservatives had no housing policy. In a decade they built largely on the initiative of the City of Winnipeg about 500 units of public housing. That averages out to less than 50 a year - and this is from a government which con- sisted of men whom the Member for Sturgeon Creek would describe as aggressive, vigorous salesmen types.

And this was at a time when the TED Report, the Bible of the Leader of the Official Opposition, recommended the construction of 18, OOO units of new housing to replace that housing which would have to be demolished, and the construction of 18, OOO more units to eliminate overcrowding. TED stated that 36, OOO units would have to be built between 1970 and 1980, in that decade, 36, OOO units. It was this huge housing need which we inherited from the dynamic and aggressive government of the previous regime.

The Metro Urban Renewal Study of 1967 estimated that during the decade of the 170's Metro Winnipeg would require over 40, OOO units of new housing, of which roughly a little more than half, over 20, OOO would have to be some sort of public housing. Since we took office we've expanded the staff of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and now there are almost 20, I understand, almost 20 employees, five times as many as the Conservatives had - five times. -- (Interjection) -- I'm sorry the Member for Fort Garry is not here, ·that would have given him an apoplectic fit.

Mind you, mind you we now do have a housing program for the first time. We will be building approximately 20, OOO units of housing with some federal money, some federal money which is loaned to us, we'll be building some 20, OOO units over the next five years. There'll be 2, 500 approximately built this coming year. It would have been 3, 600 only the Federal Government - and it's the Federal Liberal Government - in its infinite wisdom cut our CMHC appropriation by some $20 million.

Now the Throne Speech sets out the goals of the government raising the standard of living of Manitobans, improving the distribution of income for those on moderate, low or fixed incomes. And the eradication of slums has always been a part of the program of our party. I think our public housing program illustrates how we're attempting to achieve these objectives. It illustrates that a government can be both idealistic in its goals and pragmatic in its methods.

The capital cost of any housing built in Manitoba is a benefit to the province rather than a charge against it, the debt itself retiring and at the same time the new construction generates income and taxes, economic activity and social uplift to those who have never known before adequate housing. To put it simply, the province makes money through a public housing pro gram. The speed-up in our public housing program this last winter, forms a major part of our government's effort to provide jobs and economic activity during a period of federally induced unemployment and economic recession.

April 16, 1971 169 (MR. JOHANSSON cont'd. ) Now I'm convinced, I'm convinced that the Conservative Party with its respect for tradi tion and with its pragmatism should support the creative use of the Crown as shown in this government's housing program. I would think that the Member for Lakeside, for example, who I think is a man who is truly a Conservative in many of the best senses of the word, should support a program like this.

I think he's much more of a Conservative than some of the members behind him in his caucus who continually spout free enterprise dogma which in many cases has very little to do with Conservatism. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Official Opposition has stated that his party intends to provide constructive opposition, a positive alternative to the government. The Honourable Member for Portage who used to be House Leader of what used to be the Liberal Party in this House has stated that his group intends to offer positive alternatives to government policies.

In view of this I feel that the House would appreciate hearing the policy position of the groups opposite on the question of aid to separate schools. They've pressed the government for its position. If the opposition wishes to be a positive and constructive alternative I should like to hear a precise statement of what the position of the Conservative Party is on financial aid to private and pa;rJchial schools.

What is the position agreed upon by the Conservative Party and its caucus; for example, I would like to hear -- I don't know if their conventions decide policy or not, I'm not sure who -- For example, I would like to hear from the Honourable Member for Pembina, I would like to hear from the Honourable Member for Pembina whether his party, the party that he campaigns for in Pembina in his constituency, supports aid which would allow any group of parents, any group of parents to pay school taxes to a school of their own choice, I should like to hear him tell us, for example, whether he would allow a group of Communists or aetheists of commune hippie parents to pay school taxes, to pay school taxes to the schools of their own choice.

Would the Honourable Member for Swan River -- and unfortunately he's not here -- would the Honourable Member for Swan River allow these groups, Communist, etcetera, to set up Communist or aetheist schools? Would the Honourable Member for Rock Lake who gave us a dissertation on academic freedom yesterday, would the Honourable Member for Rock Lake allow parents to pay their school taxes to a free school where permissiveness runs rampant, where publications such as the one he was looking at yesterday would be mild stuff? Would he allow a free school to be set up -- (Interjection) - Certainly.

MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake on a question. MR. EINARSON: I'd like to know, could you tell me if the taxpayers are not paying money in universities where some professors may be preaching communism and what it stands for? In view of your comments that you have just been making, I'm wondering, could you tell the members of this House whether tax money today is not being used to pay professors, some professors at some universities to preach the ideologies of communism? MR, JOHANNSON: I would agree with you. In fact there are courses on Marxism and Communism.

I, for example, studied a course on European History which examined the entire course of European history from 1789 to the present the professors taught us the doctrines of a good number of movements - including capitalism, yes. Now, I think after listening to the Honourable Member for Charleswood yesterday, that the things that I've been mentioning are implications of a statement . MR, LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the honour- able member would permit a question? MR. SPEAKER: The Member for St. Boniface on a question. MR. DESJARDINS: This question, Mr.

Speaker, just for clarification. I was waiting to see the connection in my honourable friend comparing the schools that he mentioned when he was questioning some of the members in the opposite side to the separate schools? Is that the intention? And private schools? It's just clarification that I . . . MR, JOHANN SON: No. No, Mr. Speaker, the great majority of the private schools right now are religious in nature and I was talking about schools that could be set up, For example, there used to be a school which I understand at least, preached Marx Leninism in the North End.

That school folded because of lack of financial support and a school like that certainly could possibly emerge again if state support were provided to all types of private schools. Finally, I would like to know whether the Honourable Member for Charleswood was

170 April 16, 1971 (MR. JOHANNSON cont'd. ) ..... speaking for himself or his party yesterday in his plea for aid to private schools. If the Conservative Party wishes the people of Manitoba to take it seriously -- and obviously from their performance in the two by-elections the people don't take it very seriously now -- if the Conservative Party wishes the people of Manitoba to take it seriously, they must make clear their position as a party to the people of Manitoba.

Their party after all governed Manitoba for more than a decade and its only policy on this question, and some of the members opposite were in government that formulated this policy, their only policy in this question was the shared services plan. Individual members of the Conservative caucus are ·now stating by implication that the Conservative solution was a non-solution, that it didn•t solve the problem.

If these members want us to take seriously their present pleas for action to make up for their inaction while they were in office for over a decade, I think they owe an obligation to the people of Manitoba to take a precise party and caucus decision on this vital matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. Question. The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. MOUG: Is that all you have to co:ritribute to the Legislature? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. Or is there another question? MRS. TRUEMAN: . , . question, Mr. Speaker . . . MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge.

MRS, TRUEMAN: , . . if the member would submit to a question. When he mentioned all the housing that had been developed since his party took power, how much of that had actually been started during the Conservative regime? It's almost two years you've coasted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR, CRAIK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and may I join with the others in wishing you well in your undertakings.

I know that you have a very difficult job ahead of you in restoring · a degree of decorum to the House that has been lacking on many occasions in the past and is very difficult to rectify when in fact it exists in that condition. However, I think you're off to a good start and I'll attempt to give you every assistance that I can but inadvertently will fall off the wagon now and then like the rest of the members of the House and I'm sure you'll remind me when I do. May I also congratulate the new attendants that we have in the House.

It was very pleas ing, particularly yesterday, to see our new lady attendants in the House go through the onerous responsibility of first roll-call, I, during the course of being in the House haven't seen anyone do it just quite as well as it was done yesterday and I'm sure that bodes well for this move and I congratulate them very much. Also, Mr.

Speaker, congratulations are in order to the others who fill new responsibil ities on the government side of the House, and before leaving this topic I want to join the others as well in paying tribute to those who were instrumental in providing us with a very successful Centennial year,. and again particularly thanks to the late Maitland Steinkopf who gave unstintingly of his own time and his own personality and has to be one of the most re spected citizens that this province has seen in many a decade and served us well for many years and I think particularly in our Centennial year.

And, of course, along with him, the former Minister of Cultural Affairs who now sits in the House, the Member for Wellington, who put in a very difficult year, I'm sure, as well, in helping us toward a successful Centennial. Mr. Speaker, with those few remarks I want to make a few comments about the topics that are contained in the Throne Speech, and some that are not contained in the. Throne Speech.

I think that it's evident in the Throne Speech that the government has come to the position of paying at least lip service to the economic development requirements of the province which are critical to our well-being and which have been lacking in the past performance of the government and I can only hope that the intentions indicated in the Throne Speech are in fact going to bear fruit because the economic community, or the economic feelings of the commun ity, particularly the business community in Mamtoba, are not very buoyant as a result of the attitude of the government to the private sector of this province.

That goes almost without saying to the various portions of the private sector that contribute so valuably to our economic life. I think to repeat again words that have already stated in the House, that the private sector by and large is responsible for the jobs, the employment, the innovativeness that is

April 16, 1971 1 71 (MR. CRAIK cont'd. ) . . . . . required to provide an on-going and health economy. I think government's role has been, is, and should continue to be that of the catalyst in the mix of the private and public sectors of our community. A mixed economy principle is with us, has been for some time and is a good one that can provide a good balance and one which I personally support, but I think the

interpretation of where the balance lies is the difference in philosophy of the political parties that we have in Manitoba and I think there is a difference. Quite frankly, I agree with the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources who made the statement in the House the other day that there should be a polarization of political thought in Manitoba and I have no inhibitions about exploring such a polarization. The main issue, I think, that is before the Legislature this year is the issue of total amalgamation or non-amalgamation within the Greater Winnipeg area.

We have the first bill before us that sets the stage for introduction of the plans of the government in this direction. I represent a constituency that is affected very directly by the government plans if they are as stated in the White Paper which was circulated. I must say that I felt that the White Paper, like many others, was not a well written paper. I think particularly the part that said that it was obvious that we suffered from a lack of participation. I thought this was a very ironic statement to be made in light of what can be expected from the amalgamation that is proposed to replace it.

I would say further that the remarks of the Member for Elmwood I thought were a very very bad misinterpretation of the true facts. I think his

interpretation was wrong; I think that the results that would follow that

interpretation, if he is reflecting government policy, are going to be, the actions would be very ill-founded. I think what we want out of our urban government is participation, democratic government at a time now when we also want the least possible cost for government administration. The proposals of the government that are indicated in the White Paper are not going to remedy any problem in that direction that now exists. The Minister of Finance and his assistants from the Cabinet held their many meetings throughout the urban area. They were held in St. Vital.

The Member for Elmwood says that the turnout was very much influenced by the political actions of particular interest groups at the meeting and therefore was a biased meeting. This couldn't be further from the truth; and if the Member for Elmwood is not prepared to recognize democratic, democracy at its best, then he's missed the best chance of his lifetime that he had in the hearings that were held - if you can call them hearings - throughout the urban area. The people that presented them selves at the particular meeting in St.

Vital, in numbers 800 to 1, OOO people that were reported, were there because like no other issue that has been before them in recent times, they felt vitally affected by the decisions that were being made by the government. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, there has been much talk of the recent results of the by elections in Ste. Rose and St. Vital and I congratulate ihe respective winners of those by elections. I must say to the government that it is my feeling that they won the St. Vital seat not as a result of their position on amalgamation but in spite of it. Mr. Speaker, that• s my

interpretation, I think it's supported by many others who are reasonably familiar with the school of thought that was predominant during the period of the by-election at that particular time, and the government did not win votes in St. Vital because of their position on the amalgamation issue; rather they lost votes on the amalgamation issue. The results of the by-elections, Mr.

Speaker, again to bear out the requirements for a realignment of political thought came up with the net result, the only conclusion that you could draw, that 64 percent of the electorate were against the main principle that was placed before them by the New Democratic Party, and the main issue of about three issues in the by-election was total amalgamation, and the 64 percent of the people have basically told the government that they are against the principle of total amalgamation Mr. Speaker, I'd like to say why they are against it.

They're against it only partly because the government will not try and tell them what the costs are going to be of an amalga mated city.

They're against it because by nature they have grown up with a degree of independ ence, that is, a majority of the population that has been there for several years and most of them, the majority of the population has been, that• s a community with a fairly small turnover in that particular constituency, and over that period of time they have developed in their local government that degree of independence that allowed them to go before their local government to solve many of their local problems and in so doing they had many difficulties and have been very free and very prone to express their thoughts very vociferously.

But this doesn't neces sarily mean that they're against having their own local government. Over the same period of

172 April 16, 1971 (MR, CRAIK cont'd. ) . . . .. time they developed a reserve fund, a rainy day fund, that in cash value is significant to that particular area, population of 30 some thousand people, a reserve fund of close to $2 million, They have also in recent years developed some of their own land and have adopted a policy for the public development of land under the total planning umbrella of the Metropolitan Corporation which they by and large agree with, and when they disagree with it they make their feelings known and the differences are resolved but by and large which they accept, and find no basic fundamental generic disagreement with the principle of having their overall planning governed by a Metropolitan government, but working progres sively towards the best interests of the public by reserving their public land for development in the interests of the public so if there is a capital gain, it goes to the public.

The net value of these lands again is of the order of $2 million in that area. These figures are very rough but this gives us a total value of somewhere in the order of $4 million, I find the Minister of Finance is not particularly interested in this and he wishes not to hear this part, because he now has a bill before the Legislature_ that wants to freeze these long accumulated earnings of the average citizen of St.

Vital, who is not a wealthy person on the average, but is in the lower income area; four million dollars alone in accumulations of cash reserves or property reserves that they have accumulated, They didn't have the benefit of forethought that the Mayor of Winnipeg had a year ago to sell off any of their property such as the Winnipeg Auditorium, They are now faced with a bill by the government that is going to take their reserves from them. This is the main thrust of the bill which the Minister has intro duced. It does the same not only to St. Vital but does it to all the other municipalities as well.

In other words, the earned reserves that a municipality has accumulated are going to be taken from them b\\t there is going to be no consideration of the hardships they went through over the past 10 or 15 years to accumulate those reserves. How does the government plan to make restitution for that, that belongs by and large to a community of people that have lived there that long and the government has no right at this time to take those reserves from them. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that this is only-a minor part of the argument, but it's one that everybody understands because it's dollars and cents.

The more important part of the argu ment is the loss of democratic participation that people have enjoyed in that area, whether it is arguments over the pros and cons of whether the water flows one way on a street or another, at least they can solve it with their local council and do not have to have it solved at the beaucratic level. I think there is a fundamental difference that can be identified and that is going to be lost in the proposal of the government.

The difference is whether the politicians, the elected person -- I shouldn't say politician, because I don't think political activity as we sometimes interpret it is properly applied to the local situation, because bigP politics has never played a significant

part in local government to the extent that it has in the suburbs, the extent that.it has in Winnipeg. -- (Interjection) -- Well, Mr. Speaker, that is an expected comment from the Member from Elmwood who has never sat or watched a local elected body in action.

However, there are members on the government side who have and when they speak in favour of amalgamation, and I look specifically at the Minister of Education who spoke in our area, he speaks without conviction when he speaks in favour of total amalgamation, because he knows that a great lot is being lost in the proposal that is being brought forth by the present government. The basic difference, Mr.

Speaker, in the operation of local government and metropolitan government is that at the local level, the elected official has still some voice that he can exercise on behalf of the constituents that he represents, and the difference is at the Metropol itan level of government, well intentioned that the people may be that are elected there, they are run by the bureaucracy, and that is not true at the local level, and what we are all search ing for is the proper balance.

But I submit that what we will end up with in the Metropolitan area with a 48 member council proposed by the White Paper, is this loss of representation, effective representation, just by the sheer weight of the bureaucracy which they are going to have under them and the lack of effective action that is going to be achieved on the little problems, not the big problems, but the little problems that bother people most in areas such as the one that I represent. I think also that the government might well learn from what has happened in other areas.

Within the last two or three weeks we have found that in the city of Los Angeles, the police force has been broken up into three distinct areas of control. We find the same thing, Mr. Speaker, in other large urban areas in the United States and in North America and I think that we might well learn that many of the things that are wanting to be experimented with here, are •

April 16, 1971 173 (MR. CRAIK cont'd. ) . . . .. in fact found to be an undesirable situation in other areas. I must say that I was satisfied, pleased that the government did not see fit to apply their centralization plans to education. I think that this was a - somewhere wisdom was brought to bear, whether it was through the Minister of Education or not, perhaps it was - but wisdom was brought to bear here in sparing the educational system in the Greater Winnipeg area from the centralization plans that they are trying to impose on the local levels of government.

I think that the effect in the education area would probably have been even more detrimental and backward moving than they are in the field of centralization of municipal government. I trust, Mr. Speaker, that the final decisions are not made with regard to the decisions on total amalgamation, because I sincerely believe that they will find that if this were put to a referendum that in the suburbs at least it would be soundly and roundly defeated - including Transcona.

Well I take from the Minister of Labour's remarks that he has all the fire power he needs now to put through his inflexible position with regard to total amalgamation.

I think that the Minister of Labour might well speak to one of his favourite constituents, the Mayor·c.fTransconaandlisten to his admonitions; a man of considerable stature who has never in the past been reluctant to put forth his position in spite of the many established interests in his community or for that matter in the province and I suggest that in this case again that the Minister of Labour listen to the mayor of his own city which he represents. Mr. Speaker, there is one other area which I wish to discuss.

It's an area that has been avoided to a considerable extent, and that is the question of the forestry complex development at The Pas. I must say that from the out-start that I think the government has made a great mistake in the moves that they have brought about in forcing this company into receivership. I listened to the Member for The Pas yesterday when he spoke and I think he made a very telling statement when he said that the whole development at The Pas was a marginal develop ment. Mr.

Speaker, no one has ever said that it wasn't, and if the Member for The Pas has just discovered in 1971 that it was anything but a marginal development it's no wonder that the government is in trouble if that• s the

interpretation that the government caucus is putting on to this project. Mr. Speaker, I say that the government has made a mistake. They found that the people that were heading up The Pas complex were very difficult to deal with. They are hard-headed people, they had to be to make it go. What the government has not realized is that the hard-headed approach of the people they were dealing with, almost ruthless at times, are the same characteristics that allow that complex to succeed in an area, a market area outside of Manitoba.

I suggest to you that there are not enough business people on the government side to realize that they are in a tough league and if they are suggesting in their decision that somehow a civil servant is going to be able to sell pulp on the American market and on the other competitive markets of the world, at a . . . arrangement that is going to yield them the result they want, then they are badly mistaken.

I think they have made a mistake again, because I am slightly familiar with the, had reason to be familiar at one stage with the agreement that they have with the company that has developed this, and I think that they are going to have great difficulty in making their point. I think they are going to lose and when they do lose it is going to be very costly to the people of Manitoba. I believe that after that has happened, that the principles involved in this are going to come back and they are going to make it work.

Now that•s leading with a political chin, because I full well realize that politically the best decision on The Pas would be to turn your back on it before it ever happens but in terms of the economics of Manitoba the develop ment at The Pas is in the best interests of Manitoba, and that the agreement that was made despite some of the intricacies that have caused presumably great concern to the government that in overall terms it was in the best economic interest of the Province of Manitoba, and if the decision had to be made again, I am sure that this government may not make it because I don't think they have the courage.

I don't think they have the courage, they have not got the philosophy I know, and I think the reason they are in the trouble that they are in now, or that all of Manitoba is in the trouble it is in now, is because of the difference again in philosophy, but your philosophy I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, I submit that the philosophy of the present government has got them in a lot of trouble because they are going to have a great deal of difficulty winning this and they are going to have a great deal of difficulty settling for the penalty clauses that are in that contract that go beyond April lst.

If you can impose a penalty on that company for not having that thing in operation by April lst, a penalty of $5, OOO a day, then I suspect that you have to be prepared to pay that penalty, or the citizens of Manitoba are

l'Z4 April 16, 1971 (MR. CRAIK cont'd. ) . . . . . going to have to pay that back if you do not win. And I don't think you are going to win, I repeat. But I think the complex is going to run and it's going to run a:ft er your nose is a lot bloodier than it is now because you have made a bad decision and you are in trouble. It's not the previous government that's in trouble on this one my friend, you are in great difficulty. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resourc es. MR.· GREEN: I wonder if the honourable member would permit a question?

The honour able member has indicated that he do esn't think that this government would make a decision of that kind if they had it to do again. May I ask the honourable member if the decision had to be made again by himself would he make the same decision to proceed in the way they proceeded in 1966? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I wasn't party to the decision in '6 6, but if I was faced with it today, urider the same circumstances, I can say that I very likely would, very likely would, .and the previous government would have made it work. It's the present government that got I it into difficulty. So, Mr.

Speaker, what do we have now? We have an investigating comm it- tee and I think that this as well is pretty symbolic, the make-up of it is pretty symbolic of the present government. Is there an acco untant on it? No. Is there an engineer on it that knows anything about the pulp business? No. Is there a businessman on it that knows anything about it? No. Who's on it, Mr. Speaker ? The law partner of the Minister of Mines, a political scientist from the University and a retired judge and these people are to analyze a complex busfoess such as this and come out with an answer.

Are we really expecting -- (Interjection) -- no, I prefer to wait. I'll very gladly I answer you at the end. Mr. Speaker, we are not going to get satisfactory answers on that basis, but the government is, as I said, is reflective. It's symbolic of what their philosophy is. It's symbolic of their proneness to make political appointment. It's not in the best interests of Manitoba. An enquiry commission of people that are made up that know absolutely nothing about the business that they are investigating. And if you want to take it as a personal criticism of the members you are free to do so.

All I'm saying is that if you were serving the best interests of Manitoba and you wanted to inquire into this, and I welcome you to, why could you not put somebody on it that is first of all removed from the political connection and secon dly had some particular expertise in the area that they are investigating. But what else do we get? The Minister of Education says higher expertise. Well Mr. Speaker, it's no wonder that the Premier has a headache with the sort of guidance that he is getting from the people that he has working with him.

They know absolutely nothing about the area in which they are dealing: their philosophy is wrong and in order to justify their philosophy, they have had to take other action to do it. But you are in trouble, Mr. Speaker. I shouldn't say you, I don't believe you are. The government is in trouble on this one and they are not going to get out of it easily. However, I'm convinced that The Pas complex is going to progress in spite of them.

They have very succes sfully managed to cloud the issue to the extent of persuading the people at this stage of the game, that it was a very bad giveaway on behalf of the people of Mallitoba and they were not prepared to give the whole complex a chance to show itself in its best light after April lst, they have prevented that move . I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that their mistakes are going to catch up with them and I trust that this is done before they decide they're going to go to the next election.

I suggest to you that it is in the best interests to have this decided in the courts outside of Manitoba with the political influence that is fiercely going on between the Cabinet members and the courts in Manitoba at this particular time. Mr. Speaker, I want to finish off by suggesting to the government that they follow through with some changes in their poiicies with regard to the economic development of Manitoba. We have found that great ch::i,_nges have been going on in the Manitoba Development Corpora tion, the biggest changes is the increase in staff.

We have found that in the matter of two years the staff of the MDF has gone from a staff of less than ten people, seven or eight or nine, to a staff of over 40 people today, This was not pointed out by the Minister of Industry and Com merce in his many remarks, however, I think it's important to the people of Manitoba to know that the several hundred percent increase in the staff of the Development Corporation has been the greatest economic development that Manitoba has seen so far and that we•re all wait ing anxiously to see that this pays off.

The annual report which we now have tells ·us nothing except that there has been growth in the past year. I trust, also, that the Manitoba Development Corporation will be kept at the arm's length from the government that it has in the past even though it has caused some embarrassing

April 16, 1971 175 (MR, CRAIK cont'd.) .. ... situations for the government. However, all the indications are that the Minister is most anxious to operate it directly as the right arm of his department and certainly not at arm's length ; and I suggest that we are expecting great things from him and his staff of 43 people that he has now built up in the MDC and that this is not the only signs we have of economic development in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources wish a question? MR, GREEN: Yes, I wonder if the honourable member would submit to a question?

Did the honourable member approve of the Inquiry Commission and its personnel that was designated to look into the Brandon Packers' dispute in 19, approximately 63? MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer the Minister if I could but I don't really see how he expects me to be familiar with the Brandon Packers' Inquiry when I wasn't - I think I was in the Province of Manitoba at that time and had some familiarity with it, but I'm hardly prepared to take the responsibility -- whatever it was. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR.

GREEN: If I advise the Honourable Minister that the then Conservative Government appointed Mr. Justice Tritschler to head the inquiry and . . MR, SPEAKER: Order please. MR. GREEN: I am putting the question, Mr. Speaker. MR, SPEAKER: Well you are stating an argument first. MR. GREEN: May I ask the honourable member, may I ask the honourable member whether he considers that the appointment of Chief Justice Tritschler as the head of the inquiry and Maurice Arpin who was a special consultant to the Premier as solicitor for the inquiry, whether he considered those good appointments? MR.

CRAIK: Mr, Speaker, I can't resist the answer .. . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR, CRAIK: I've never yet run across a lawyer, and often politicians, that look for precedents when they're trying to justify a position and the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources has fallen beautifully into that pattern. He wants to look to some -- probably important case at that time but obscure now as far as the importance in terms of Manitoba is concerned to try and justify a situation that now exists in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce.

MR, EVANS: Thank you very much, Mr, Speaker. I would first join with my colleagues in the House in congratulating you on your elevation to this very high office, this very impor tant position in the Manitoba Legislature.

I know you will do well in upholding the traditions of the office of Speaker; I know that you are a most conscientious person and have a great sense of fair play and I would take this opportunity to wish you well in your position and in the tasks before you, Although there has been quite a bit of discussion with respect to economic development and economic situation in the Province of Manitoba during the Throne Debate I do not wish to -- and I could rebut a number of the comments being made -- I don't wish to go into this in any great detail. I would like to, Mr.

Speaker, however, take a few minutes to relate to one or two economic factors that the Province of Manitoba must face.

The fact of the matter is we are one province, we are one economic unit or one economic segment in a national economy, we are part of an international economy and that if we have a Federal Government which is insisting on carrying forth a very tight monetary policy, we have a Federal Government in Ottawa which is insisting on fighting inflation by the creation of vast amounts of unemployment, if we have a government in Ottawa which insists in curtailing substantial expenditures in the Province of Manitoba then the task facing any government in Manitoba becomes very difficult in the process of economic development.

The task of promoting economic development be comes very difficult indeed if the circumstances and the situation that is created by the Federal Government is one which is not conducive to economic development. Indeed the Government of Manitoba has had to spend a great deal of time and energy in fighting the unemployment situa tion that has confronted us and I like to think, Mr, Speaker, that Manitoba has probably had the most imaginative program to combat unemployment of any province in the good nation of ours.

We have speeded up public works, we have engaged in a high level of spending on public housing although this spending is worthwhile within itself, but nevertheless it did have the very good side effect of stimulating work in the province, And I would also mention the provincial

176 April 16, 1971 (MR. EVANS cont' d. ) . . . . . employment program for municipalities, a program which has been. hailed by all municipalities in the Province of Manitoba, by civic leaders from east to west from north to south for the types of work that have been made available in various com munities large and small around the province during this winter and indeed at thls very time and in through to the middle of our summer, the time when unemployment tends to be hlgher than in other seasons of the year.

And because of these very strenuous efforts on the part of the Provincial Gove rnment, we indeed have kept the levels of unemployment lower than the Canadian average and the results of our programs were particularly noticed in the latest state ment on unemployment which was released by the Federal Government the other day and which was referred to by my colleague, the Honourable Minister of Labour, in Ws statement of yesterday.

The fact of the matter is, however, that the Canadian unemployment situation still looks very grim indeed, that we have a level of unemployment of 7. 8 percent of those who are willing and able to work in Canada, whlch is a percentage figure representing about 650, OOO people in Canada who are out of work and who want to work, and that thls level of unemployment is probably the hlghest and the worst since the dirty thirties of the major depression suffered here. I would forecast, Mr.

Speaker, that there is a dismal year ahead for Canada and for the Canadian economy and that it's not unlikely that· high levels of unemployment will be with us on the Canadian average again next winter, and I think that our fears, the fears expressed by representatives of thls government about the duration as well as the depth of this recession are being realized. The statistics indicate that it is not only a deep recession that we're in but if looks like it's going to be a very long recession.

At the same time, the fears expressed by our government with respect to inflation are also being realized because inflation apparently is returning and in fact I would suggest that the whole Ottawa program in maintaining adequate levels of employment and in curtailing inflation is a complete disaster. Our government is cognizant of the seriousness of the situation and we are analyzing the situation very carefully as it applies to Manitoba and we trust that we can use the experience gained over this past winter· for perhaps better and more sophlsticated programs in years or seasons ahead.

The situation in Manitoba, because of the increased level of spending by the Province of Manitoba for public housing, the stepped up program of public works and because of our PEP program for municipalities has shown that while the amount of unemployment in Alberta and Saskatchewan has increased in March over February by 5, OOO people -- in other words in March there were 5, OOO more people unemployed in Alberta and Saskatchewan taken together than in February -- at the same time Manitoba•s level of unemployment decreased by 2, OOO persons, so that this being reflected in the rate whlch shows us having one of the most favour able rates of unemployment of any province in Canada.

I might also add a footnote, and that is with regard to the participation rates. The participation rate tells you what proportion of our potential work force is ready and available to work, and the fact is during times of serious economic difficulties there is an inclination for people to leave the labour force; in some cases older persons, some cases married women and in some cases others who have just given up the thought of ever getting a job so they don't participate in effect, or not available to participate effect in the labour force.

The fact of the matter is that the participation rates in Canada have fallen by a percentage point so that there are 16, OOO people less available in the Canadian labour force in March as com pared with the previous month,

whereas in Manitoba the participation rate has remained constant. In other words, there hasn't been the same escapage of persons who have given up the thought or the hope of becoming employed in Manitoba as has occurred on the national average. And I repeat, Mr.

Speaker, that Manitoba•s worries about the lack of vigorous Federal response are being realized and I'm just afraid that the lack of action in Ottawa is going to increasingly throw the burden onto the shoulders of progressive provinces such as the Pro vince of Manitoba, to throw it on our own resources in fighting unemployment with our limited abili ties of taxation and our limited resources , so that in effeet they will be contributing to the Balcanization of our country. I haven't meant to dwell as long as I have done on unemployment.

I have said that the unemployment situation is not as good as we•d like it to be; we think that we should have lower levels. The ideal unemployment situation is zero unemployment. At the same time, there are other statistics that indicate that the situation in Manitoba is comparing favourably with that across Canada. Whether you look at average weekly wages, whether you look at real wages, whether you look at retail sales changes or a host of other statistics, would indicate

April 16, 1971 (MR, EVANS cont'd.) . . .. . that by and large that the Manitoba economy is holding up fa irly well in spite of this imposed economic recession. 177 If I may, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to pass on very briefly and make a reference, as one often does in the Throne Speech, to one's own home community. This seems to be somewhat traditional and I just ask you to bear with me for a moment or two to enable me to comment on the situation in Brandon.

I think that you can ask anyone in Brandon and they will give you the answer that the present government of Manitoba has done more to the City of Brandon and area than any other government probably in the history of this province. Take a survey. After decades and decades of neglect, after decades of neglect we finally have a provincial govern ment which is concerned about the development of regional growth centres throughout the province. And indeed, Sir, Brandon is on its way to becoming a stronger and more viable economic centre and the Province of Manitoba will be better therefore.

The -- did the member have a question? -- (Interjection) -- MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek on a question. MR. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Of the announcements of the provincial gov ernment has made regarding Brandon, would the Minister please tell me which ones have started and are in progress at the present time. MR. EVANS: Yes. MR. F. JOHNSTON: By present government. MR. EVANS: Yes, I would be delighted, Sir. In fact I was going to do this. There are a number of key buildings which are already under construction.

I would mention a beautiful provincial garage complex, which thanks to my colleague the Minister of Public Works and Highways, which was not programmed by the previous administration, which should have been programmed by the previous administration ten years ago. As a matter of fact I think the garage is the identical one to the one going up in Dauphin. -- (Interjection) -- Right. This garage is -- the construction has started on it, construction is started on the Keystone Centre to which the Province of Manitoba committed $1 1/2 million. -- (Interjection) -- I'm still answering the first question.

MR, SPEAKER: .. . honourable member is not being recorded. Order please, order please. Does the honourable member wish to ask a question? He may do so now. The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR, J, DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Well I just repeat my question, Mr. Speaker. I'm sorry if I didn't go through you, but I ask the Minister did this present government establish the Keystone Centre ? MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, the Keystone Centre has been an ideal, a dream of many people in Brandon for many years. When we took office it was nowhere from being realized.

There was no commitment, not a commitment of one red penny, one red penny. -- (Interjection) -- Well, I've had lots of communication with the chairman and the members of the committee. They had nothing in the way of any commitment, legal or otherwise, to the information that's been given to me by that committee, and it's thanks to the present government that southwestern Manitoba is now getting a modern agricultural exhibition centre along with other needed recreational and sports facilities. Well, I'm still answering the question: what buildings have we started that we've announced?

I'd like to also refer to the public housing units. 50 units were completed not long ago for families on low income. A 75 unit high-rise building for elderly persons, for your senior citizens, is nearing completion. This is a program instituted by my honourable colleague the Minister of Municipal Affairs who is in charge of the Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporation. Under his leadership we have a much needed facility for our senior citizens, 75 units, and indeed there have been indications of another 100 units going up alongside of the building that has been already started and is on its way to completion.

There are many other examples that I could give you. The lower road to Shilo. You know, when I campaigned, Mr. Speaker, my colleague in Brandon West, my NDP running mate in Brandon West and I, you know we didn't mention a thing about public works. Our concerns were such things as Medicare, educational programs, housing and so on, and we made no promises about grants to centres or new garages and so forth, but, you know, for years and years the people in the Brandon area have talked about paving the lower road to Shilo. You know, that was on the tongue of anyone who talked about highways in the Brandon area..

If only we could have this road to Shilo paved, because there are a couple of thousand people in

i11s April 16, 1971 MR. EVANS cont'd. ) . . . . Shilo, who happen to live in Brandon East incidentally, who want to come to Brandon to shop and who either live in Brandon and work in Shilo or vice versa, and who for many years have had their windshields broken and so on, going over this gravel road, When is the lower road to Shilo paved? Well, when this .government came to office, Mr. Speaker, the lower road to S hllo was paved. There is expansion in other commercial areas because of our support of the Keystone Centre, and we had the sale of the old arena.

On that spot we have now sparked a development of a new shopping centre. There are in addition two additional retail shopping centres going up -- I'm sorry, the second one is completed; a third one is on its way towards completion. A new hotel was recently constructed in Brandon. This is after many years of no activity, Mr. Speaker, in this phase. Another motel, a multi-million dollar motel is about to start. A private personal care home valued at a million dollars is just on its verge of starting.

The Royal Trust Company has just announced, a couple of days ago , that they are planning to build in downtown Brandon a 3. 2 -- at least a 3. 2 million dollar structure that will have nine and possibly 12 or 14 stores. And, of course, all this is summarized in the value of building per mits which saw, I believe, an all-time high reached last year. In fact, I'm convinced that in 1971 we will surpass this all-time high in the value of building permits. In addition, there are a number of other things that are about to take place. They have been announced and they are about to take place.

In a matter of weeks the new provincial office building is going up. This is something that•s been needed for years and years and years. It never happened under the previous administration. A regional school - you know, we needed a regional school, and now the Minister of Education has announced that a regional school will be located in the Brandon area. And, of course, we have don e something that no other government in the history of Manitoba has done .

We have stated that we will locate a major government, provincial government agency head office outside of the City of Winnipeg, and I think that this shows faith that this govern ment is true to its word when it said that it believed in balanced regional growth and that it could show some leadership in this by locating the head office of a major government agency outside of the Metro Winnipeg, and this is the first time that this has occurred in the history of the Province of Manitoba. In addition, Mr.

Speaker, I could review new industries that have come to Brandon: Beal and Wicks Company, which I had the pleasure of opening a few months ago; Inventronics; Macey Foods Limited, which was revitalized; and I must "mention, I must not overlook McKenzie Seeds, which for four or five years lost substantial sums of money, hundreds of thousands of dollars year after year after year, until this government came to power and put in a board of directors who knew what they were doing and turned it around so that today, last year, last year we made a profit after five consecutive years of losses, amounting to, in fact, not hundreds but millions of dollars.

As a matter of fact, as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, McKenzie Seeds for years was No. 2 seed company, package seed company in Canada after Steele-Briggs. I'm pleased to announce when the sales figures are in for this year, McKenzie Seeds will be the No. 1 package seed company in Canada - will be No. 1. No. 1 - and the profits will be higher still. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur on a question. MR. EVANS: Just don't deduct that from my time, eh? MR.

SPEAKER: I don't know whether the honourable member was here yesterday, but I did mention that before you are introduced you will not be on record in Hansard, so you may as well wait for me until I introdu ce you. The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR, WATT: I can only get in more trouble than I did with the last speaker. I'd like to ask the Minister if he could give us the prices that McKenzie Seeds are paying for seeds at the moment - for wheat, for rice, for buckwheat, for oats and for barley. MR, EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, that ... MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This is really, you know, a detailed question which would more properly be answered by submitting an Order for Return. The fact of the matter is that the McKenzie Seeds Company has over the past years gone out of the field seed business and it is essentially a package seed business, as the honourable member should know. That's where the bUlk of its business is, in the package seed business, and it's now not the No� 2 co mpany but the No. 1 package seed company in all of Canada. It's happened since we took office and put a new board of directors -- (Interjection) -- that's right. The Tories, Mr.

April 16, 1971 179 (MR, EVANS cont'd. ) Speaker, were getting it ready to sell out for nothing, for a song, and it took an NDP government to save it ; and don't talk about salesmanship. This is hard business administration and we're making profits. We're not ashamed of it either. Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of indicators of the prosperity that is now evident in Brandon. I looked at an old newspaper just yesterday and I noticed that one of my statements during the campaign was that by all the statistics I could see, Brandon was facing economic stagnation. Today, Mr.

Speaker, Brandon is probably one of the most vital, one of the most bouncing centres in the Province of Manitoba. The people of Brandon and area appreciate the concern that the Manitoba G<>vernment has in that community, and in fact even the Mayor would agree to this assertion, and I have -- if you would like me to table the correspondence I will do so, but everybody from the Mayor down through the business community, through the professional community, from all the citizens of Brandon.

You take a survey any time, any place, and you'll see that the people of Brandon know that they finally have a government which is concerned about the growth of regional centres in the Province of Manitoba, and they'll show their appreciation in the next election. I'd like to go on to another matter. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that my time isn't being limited by the time I have to take to answer these questions. I'm still a bit of a novice in the House. I'd like to go on and talk about the problem of television communication in the Prov ince of Manitoba, if I may, for a minute or two.

I think the matter of television service is one of considerable interest to many of us and I would like to make a few personal remarks.

It seems, in my opinion, that the Canadian Radio and Television Communication doesn't really know what to do with cablevision in Canada and in Manitoba, and while the regulation of the airwaves has always been recognized as a Federal G<>vernment responsibility, the cable systems are in many ways, in many respects, utilities, and when one considers the future possible uses of a cable system as a community communication system, I believe there is every reason to think that a broadly based cable system, eventually linked up with other electronic systems, will become a very important instrument for provincial development.

Mr. Speaker, there are parts of this province today, there are parts of this province today where there are substantial numbers of people that have no television coverage.

There are other parts of the province that have only one station to watch, and there are other parts of the province who can only watch television that emanates out of Saskatchewan, and I'm thinking of course of my good friend the Member from Swan River and my friend the Honourable Minister -- I'm sorry, Roblin, but I think he's acquainted with the Swan River situation on television communication -- (Interjection) -- Well, I was just going to come to that, Mr. Speaker - the Minister of Tourism and Recreation.

The fact of the matter is what you watch in that area is Saskatchewan news, Saskatchewan affairs, and really the people of that part of the province are being cheated, and I lay the blame squarely on the shoulders of the CRTC and to some extent on the CBC and the Liberal government in Ottawa. Such a utility - and I'm talking about cablevision - could be operated by the Manitoba Telephone System. I understand that the Manitoba Telephone System can deliver service if a community can obtain a licence and sufficient subscribers.

There is a need, in fact a very serious need, to explore the possibil ities of cablevision, particularly with regard to our more isolated communities. These com munities and the individuals within them can, at the present time, legally raise the tower and intercept signals from which to service their neighborhood as long as the service is not sold. As soon as the service is sold, then licensing and control provisions apply.

The matter of provincial operation of some of these services through the Manitoba Telephone System, or perhaps some other vehicle, is one in my opinion, and I'm speaking as an individual and not expressing government policy, is one which, in my opinion, deserves exploration and serious exploration. We should follow with great interest, I believe, the recent discussions between the province of Quebec and ottawa on questions related to this matter.

The situation regarding television coverage in the province, as I said, deserves careful review, and in fact has developed extremely unevenly and very erratically under the present federal broadcasting policy. We cannot accept that the same kinds of criteria be applied by the Federal G<>vernment to the whole field of cable utilities or other community communications in an era of expanding dependence on electronic media as they have to ordinary television coverage. Mr. Speaker, I would like to spend a short time before I close in discussing briefly developments, economic development policy of this government.

In attempting to realize the

18 0 April 16, 1971 (MR, EVANS cont' d. ) ... .. economic potential of our economy, this government is not bound by dogma, by preconceived notions of what will work best. On the one hand, we are quite willing and, indeed, seek the opportunity to work with the private sector in developing our prov ince.

Much of the effort of industry and commerce is devoted to working with the private sector in realizing our common goals of increased per capita incomes and improve ments in the quality of life of all the people of this province; and I could quote you several examples of continuing programs, programs which we've improved since taking office, stepped up export promotion - and the Honourable Member from Riel mentioning increased staff in the MDC, I'd like him to know that part of that increased staff is the Small Loans Division, which is now for the first time making loans availabte to small uidividuals who have really no financial assets to put up but who have ideas and may have good character, in a program which was even applauded, and publicly so, by the Manitoba Chamber of Commer ce.

This is one reason why you have more staff there, and I think that the honourable member has really not thought out his criticism. There are many other programs which we've engaged in to help the private sector. We have a management training program going on throughout rural Manitoba at the present time in seven towns and cities outside of the Metro Winnipeg area.

We've beefed up and revitalized the Manitoba Research Council and we have a number of centex committees, Somebody, in fact the former Minister of Industry and Commerce, the now Leader of the Official Opposition, who unfortunately is not in the House, refers to our Yum days as being clownish. Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not going to dwell on this. I would merely ask him, the beloved -- the man who is so concerned about industry in Manitoba I would ask him-to just talk this question of what the effects of Yum days was on our food-pro cessing industry in Manitoba. Ask the food dis tributors of this province.

Ask private enterprise in the food busin ess. This champion of private enterprise, let him ask private enterprise in the food business what he thought of our food promotion days referred to as Yum days. Ask the Canadian Restaurant Asso ciation. Ask the distributors, and they'll tell you we should do it again because it meant more business for them a:nd it did promote the sale of Manitoba food product s and cons umption of more Manitoba food products by the people of Manitoba, . But by the same token, Mr.

Speaker, we don't feel that assistance to private enterprise is the only vehicle of economic growth, and perhaps I should take the opportunity to clarify what I mean by private enterprise. First, it has to be realized that private enterprise is not neces sarily synonymous with free enterprise; that is, firms are not always held in check by the competitive forces of the market. Certain industries, firms, obtain a considerable degree of market power which insulates them from competitive market forces and allows them to charge higher ;:>rices to the consumer and realize monopoly profits.

In our economy the role of the large corporation is not always compatible with the workings of a free market economy. We have known for a long time that we get different decision-making proce sses in large cor porations because there is a separation of beneficial ownership and control of these corpora tions. In fact we would not expect a large corporation to behave in the same way and strive for the same goals as an owner-operated small firm. In Manitoba we do face the problem of the influence of the multi national corporation which operate subsidiaries within our province.

This means that decision making that virtually or vitally affects our economy is made outside of the provincial boundaries and therefore may not properly take account of the local impact of these decisions. And this brings me to the question of the Morden Canneries. What was good for the owners of Morden Canneries a large Canadian canning company -- and I discussed this matter with the president himself who had the courtesy to come and tell me why they were closing it down -- what was good for that co mpany wasn't necessarily good, in fact is · not good and was not .. good for the Province of Manitoba .

The president told me categorically that the Morden Canneries were profitable, they were making money; but, they could make even more money by locating it in so uthern Ontario, by centralizing in southern Ontario. Now if I was the presi dent I would have probably made the same decision if my Board of Directors told me to go out and maximize profits. I would have done the same thing. And I don't fault that company and I don't fault that president and I don't fault that Board of Directors. But the fact is what is good for that company wasn't good and isn't good for the Province of Manitoba.

We went around to co mpany after company in this province and said here's a cannery - a good cannery, well equipped in a very good agricultural area, how about doing some business there. And we talked to the people from Winkler, too, we've had several discus sions with the people from

April 16, 1971 181 (MR. EVANS cont'd.) .. .. . Winkler. Very extensive. The fact of the matter is that we could not interest anyone to take this on, at least on terms which we consider to be fair and reasonable. -- (Interjection) -- Right. But in this case, Mr . Chairman, we haven't given away the resource to foreign unknown entities.

And the fact is that therefore we decided that we would operate the Morden Cannery because we. know it• s going to put hundreds of thousands of dollars of incomes into the farmers in that area and to the people who are going to be employed there. -- (Interjection) -- I don't dispute the motives of the honourable member or the previous government, I don't dispute their motives. The way . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister has five minutes. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I think there should be deductions for all these interruptions and questions which I've had to . . .

Hence we in this government try to approach the whole question of economic development on a pragmatic basis. We're not hung up on a so-called free enterprise dogma. We're not dogmatic, we're pragmatic. We know that governments can do some things, they can do some things better, and we can rely on our own experience as well as experience in other countries such as England or France or .Sweden or Italy, many other countries to document this.

There are many examples where government enterprise is involved in a heavy way in - for instance in France in automobile production or in electronics as in the case of Italy or in typewriter manufactures, etcetera in Italy, where governments are involved in this or where governments are in partnership with private enterprise. In the Province of Quebec, in the Province of Manitoba we have two very excellently run public utilities: telephone system and the hydro.

These are natural monopoly areas where free enterprise cannot work well and therefore we have and the Government of Manitoba, histori cally decades ago, decided that they would service the people through a publicly-owned utility and it has done quite well. And I'm not speaking as a politician, I'm speaking as an economist. These are the facts of life. Somehow or other we're always hung up you know on this, what I consider to be the sort of outmoded thoughts about free enterprise and the sanctity of private enterprise and so on.

That type of thinking has gone out the window in western Europe and it's going out the window and it's gone out the window in advanced parts of the world, including Japan where there's quite a bit of government involvement with private enterprise and manu facturing. And there are lots of examples in the United States also. We also know that the service sector of our economy is growing in importance and gov ernment has a paramount role to play in the provision of many of these services: Police, fire protection, education, social welfare services. How about conservation officer or parks officer and so on?

As people demand these services there is a role for government to play. And that's why the Civil Service gets bigger because the people want these services. And let's not think that these are unproductive services. The woman who sweeps the floor or washes the floor in the Legislative Building is producing as much wealth for the provincial economy as the woman who sweeps the floor down in Eatons or any commercial building in downtown Winnipeg.

This government therefore feels we must be practical in approaching the needs of the citizens of the Province of Manitoba and we're prepared to actively fulfil! these needs if they're not presently being met through existing mechanisms. Well, Mr. Chairman, I am running quickly out of time so I'd like to conclude before I get interrupted out of the House here. I'd like to conclude by making a reference to a book written by a person known as Philip Mathias a reporter for the Financial Post - a book entitled "F orce Growth" "Froce Growth".

I'll quote just the one quotation and I'd like to elaborate on this but I haven't got the time obviously: "The shunning of socialism" with quotes around that word. "The shunning of 'socialism' has driven several provincial governments into arrangements in which they have paid all or most of the expenses of establishing a plant using a promoter or a company as a •private enterprise front' that gave the project political reputability." The political reputability, and of course Mr.

Mathias goes on to cite the CFI case at The Pas as a classic example and the Gulf Gardens Food Fish Plant in Prince Edward Island is another example. Mr. M::o.thias is a reporter of the Financial Post, a renowned newspaper specializing in commercial and business affairs. In the future, Mr. Speaker, we, the government of Manitoba on behalf of the people of Manitoba will insist that the public interest be protected when we have a large public stake in a venture. No longer will it be heads you win, tails we lose. -- (Interjection) -- No longer will it be, Mr. Speaker, the situation of tails you win, heads we lose.

And in some situations, in some situations this will mean that the government will want to establish Crown corpora tions rather than provide a majority of the financing without any beneficial ownership or any

182 April 16, 1971 (MR. EVANS cont'd. ) . . . . . control of the venture. And having said that, Mr. Chairman, Manitoba will continue -- in the manufacturing sector in particularly predominatly be private enterprise owned, and this is true in social democratic countries such as Sweden. In the case of manufacturing some other industrial sectors, of course, will be predominantly private enter prise ownership.

But the fact of the matter is, and I say this quite openly and frankly with every ounce of conviction I have within me, that we should not. be hung up on the fact that in some cases it needs government initiative and government enterprise in order to make things happen in this province. . . . . . Continued on next page

April 16 , 197 1 li.83 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russe ll. MR . GRAHAM : Thank you very much , Mr. Speaker, Fi rst of all, let me congratulate you in your appointment as Speaker of this House. Your duties will be no doubt onerous and at times trying. I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that I will make every effort on my part to assist you in your work, just as I will do for all other members in this House.

I would like to congratulate the mover and the seconder of the Speech from the Throne , and the appointment of the now Minister without portfolio , and I must not forget my good friend the Deputy Speaker, the Member for Winnipeg Centre, But, Mr, Speaker, some of the remarks of the previous speaker I don't think can go unnoticed at this particular time.

You know, it wasn 't too long ago, Mr, Speaker, that we had a Minister of Industry and Commerce in this province that was quite concerned about crude growth; not jobs for the sake of jobs but sophisticated jobs for the people of this province, And it was just a few minutes ago we heard him commenting on the floor sweepers, shall we say, Are these the quality jobs he 's talking about? He also mentioned the PEP Prog ram with great pride. Provincial Employ ment Prog ram. Not jobs for the sake of jobs but planned growth to provide sophistic ated jobs. Mr.

Speaker, I sugg est that probably in many cases some of this Provincial Employment Pro gram has now made hewers of wood and drawers of water out of our unemployed people in the Province of Manitoba. - However , Mr. Speaker, it's indeed encouraging to see that the Minister is concerned about the people in Manitoba after listening to the accomplishments that he listed , and he listed many, for the City of Brandon.

Probably he is the misnomer in this House, He should be called the Minister of Brandon and our Minister without Portfolio could possibly take over the rest of the Department of Industry and Commerce for the rest of the Province of Manitoba. It was also interesting to note, Mr. Speaker , th at our Minister was quite concerned about the Federal Government insisting on a tight monetary policy and the restrictive position it placed the Province of Manitoba , and he was quite concerned about this and apprehensive. I would sugg est , Mr.

Speaker, that concern alone is not enough , If there is evidence - and he has the statistics , not I - if there is evidence of the Federal Government withdrawing from programs that effect the growth of this Province of Manitoba , then I would sugg est that he do something about it, not just sit there and complain, Mr. Speaker, we in the Province of Manitoba are relatively a small province. We're centrally located. We're sitting right beside a wealthy province and there may very well be a tendency on the part of the Federal Government to ignore the position of this province in federa l-provincial relations.

I think it's exceedingly important that our Minister of Industry and Commerce, plus our Minister of Fi nance, plus our Minister of Agriculture , plus our Minister of Education and any other departments that are dependent - the Minister of Health and Social Development - should be vitally concerned and constantly concerned with the problem of cost- sharing agreements between this province and the larger federal jurisdiction. Mr.

Speaker, I' m not familiar with all the detailed prog rams that have been in existence and_ may still be in effect concerning present planning and long-term planning in the field of federal-provincial relations. But I do know this, Mr. Speaker, that there are many prog rams which may now be phasing out or drawing to a close, and I have so far seen no evidence of con cern or activity on the part of this government to provide the long-term security and direction that is required to plan for the well-being and prosperity of this province for the next five, ten, fifteen years.

To my knowledge there is no federal-provincial agreement in effect in the field of health and social development that extends beyond the next twelve to eighteen months.

We know our costs in this field are rising every day, and if this province gets no ass istance from the Federal Government in the well-being of the people of Manitoba as well as the people of Canada that visit this province and need that ass istance when they are in this province, then I think there should be some measures taken immediately, If we have to carry on the programs that are presently in effect without federal assi stance , then there has to be drastic curtailment in other fields of endeavour.

If we are not to carry on the programs that are in existence , then I would sugge st to the government that they tell us now what phases and what particular fields they intend to reduce. I don't think it's fair to the people of this province to keep them in the dark in this particular field. Sometimes , Mr. Speaker , when a person starts out they get a little side-tra cked, and it was because of some of the statements of the former speaker that I tackle this first. So, if I may , I would like to go back to some of the problems and some of the accomp lishments that

184 . April 16 , 197 1 (MR. GRAHAM cont'd. ) .••.• have occurred in the constituency of Birtle-Rus sell, of which I am proud to represent. Mr. Speaker, it was not too long ago in the Ci ty of Brandon that for the first time we had the Royal Winter Fair, and I must say that many of the competi tors that walked off with prizes in that great Fair came from the constituency of Birtle Russell.

I would also like to at this time congratulate the Minister of Health and Social Develop ment - and I'm sorry he's not in his chair - for some of the accomplishments that have occurred in the health field and the providing of facilities in my area. It was just a month ago that a new hospital was opened in the town of Russell and the establishment of a Russell hospital district. There was five years of planning went into the development of this hospital and now it is an accomplished fact, and I must say, Mr.

Speaker , that I was proud to be a member of the group who were first of all the planning committee and then became the first board to operate that hospital. I would like to thank the Minister for approving the renovations to the Shoal Lake Hospi tal. This hospital is anticipating renovations this coming summer which will improve the health facilities in the area of Shoal Lake. I would sincerely hope that while the Minister has approved this for the town of Shoal Lake and the surrounding area, that he' would also seriously consider the wishes of the people there and the establishment of a nursing home.

The people in the town of Russell and the community of Rossburn would also like to thank you, Sir, for the approval that has been granted for a nursing home in the town of Russell and, as I understand, the one in Rossburn by the Lions Club has also recei ved your approval. I'm sure the citizens would like me at this time to thank you for that. Now, Mr.

Speaker , unfortunately the Minister of Education is not in his chair but I would also like to thank him for the co-operation of his department in the establishment of a new school in Birdtail River School Division, which was completed last year in the town of Birtle. Many years also went into the planning of this school and last year it did receive its completion and become operational with the start of the last school term.

In the town of Russell , in the Pelly Trail School Division, we sincerely hope that the Minister will expedite as quickly as possible the construction of the new secondary school in that area, which we hope should re ceive final approval of their plans very shortly and we hope that they will start construction before much more time has elapsed. But, Mr. Speaker, while we are indeed grateful for these facili ties, the matter of trained personnel to make the maximum use of these facilities is something that does concern some of us.

In the medical field doctors r � needed, physiotherapists , lab technicians, radiolo gists and other assorted health personnel, :md I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that our educational programs will shortly provide these types <...:people for the most essential work that is re quired to be done in the rural areas and that these people will be provided with the incentive and the desire to serve in what some people consider to be the smaller centres in the province , and I would ask the Minister to give the people this assurance that the trained personnel will be provided very shortly. Now , Mr.

Speaker, I want to go back again to the remarks of the Minister of Industry and Commerce. It seemed to me, Mr. Spe>tker , that he was able to provide many facilities in the economic field for the Ci ty of Brandon and I hope that the Minister realizes that Brandon alone does not comprise rural Manitoba a· in my area the need for economic development is most essential. The native peoples who a'"'.! resident in my area are most urgently in need of work.

They do not basically approve of the system of living off social assistance, and if the Minister can assist in any way possible in the establishment of industry to provide the jobs that these people want, then I don't care whether it's a Crown corporation, private enterprise or any other means, provided he can give me the assurance that there will be industry in my constituenC!' :?mi that these people will have the jobs that they so urgently need. And while I'm on the same subject, Mr.

Speaker, it was very gratifying to me last year to hear the announcement of the Minister of Municipal Affairs that there would be some public housing developed in my area, and I would ask the Minister to not forget the promise that he made and proceed as quickly as possible with this public housing, and I would urge that consideration be given to the local people for employment in the building of these public houses in the area. Mr. Speaker, it was interesting to note that the Member for St.

Matthews, in the field of public housing through the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, had a concern for the reduction of the federal participation in this program. I too have a concern and I would ask

April 16 , 197 1 185 (MR . GRAHAM cont'd. ) • . • • • the Minister - and I believe it's the Minister of Municipal Affairs , is it, who handles this - why this was allowed to happen. Has the Minister made representation to the Federal Government to increase the federal allocation for the Province of Manitoba ? I would like an answer , yes. Has he been successful in achieving his goals ? -- (Interjection) -- Mr. Speaker, he still did not tell me how much he has got for public -- (Interjection) -- Very good.

And I would hope that he will proceed as quickly as possible with the establishment of this public housing for the people in this province. Yes. Mr. Speaker, for many years we have been prepared to support public housing. Public hous ing is necessary when the economic situation in the province degenerates, when there are people looking for jobs. When the economy is healthy and everyone is working and making a good living, the need for public housing drops ; when the economy is sliding, then the need for public housing rises. And I would say, Mr.

Speaker, when this government says that the public housing need is going to be greater, I'm wondering if they also mean that jobs are going to be harder to get. Now , Mr. Speaker, I' d like to turn to the Minister of Labour for a minute, and I noted with interest the other day when he was asked by the Member for Lakeside to consider some alternative to the situation that exists in Flin Flon. I would ask him to consider the problem that is most urgent in Flin Flon, not as an isolated instance, but to arrive at solutions which will cover other areas in the inter-provincial field. In my particular area, Mr.

Speaker, we have industry located on the border as well, and people in Manitoba and in Saskatchewan are working in industry which practically straddles the provincial boundary. So I' d ask the Minister to consider in his deliberations whatever legislation he provides will not be just for the area of Flin Flon but will cover all areas in this province and other jurisdictions.

While I'm still dealing with the problems that exist on provincial boundaries, and maybe I am more familiar with them having a constituency that abuts a neighbouring province, I would ask the Minister of Agriculture if he could use his influence with the Federal Government to solve some of the rather embarrassing problems that exist in the grain delivery permits along the inter-provincial boundary and the situation that now exists with a farmer having a delivery point and an alternative delivery point.

At the present time, if his delivery point is in the Province of Saskatchewan he cannot take an alternate delivery point in the Province of Manitoba , and in our particular constituency we have many farmers who would actually like to do this because they probably live closer to a delivery point in Saskatchewan than one in Manitoba and yet they would still like to have a delivery point, an alternate, on probably a different railway line.

We do know that rail line abandonment is not a dead issue and the problems that these farmers face along the boundary are quite important to them even though they are relatively few in number. I feel that their problems are ju st as important as the problems of the entire agricultural community at large. Mr. Speaker, having lived in a community which is quite close to another jurisdiction, it's possible that I may have an undue concern for relations between one province and another, and one province and another jurisdiction such as the Federal Government.

In my constitu ency in the past year we had a proposal put forward, or a report released on the south Riding Mountain escarpment and proposals for land utilization in that area.

Any decisions naturally will be made by the people concerned, the local government and it is possible that a con servation area be established in that particular case, and I would suggest to the Minister that the ARDA agreements, which may very well be drawing to a close in the near future, be rene gotiated or, if failure in that field, I would suggest that there be other jo int federal-provincial cost-sharing agreements replacing them. Some of my other colleagues have expressed their concern in the field of education; some of them will no doubt express their feelings in other fields; but, Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest to our Finance Minister that while I do not agree with his basic agreement on the original Benson white paper, that when he is negotiating this coming year with the Federal Government that the Province of Manitoba be fully protected in long-term federal-provincial agreements. Mr.

Speaker, we are facing the possibility of a federal election in the not too distant future, and if there is basically no long-term federal-provincial agreements in effect, it could very well be that this province, along with other provinces, could be placed in a very difficult position with regard to long-term plans without secure agreements being in effect as quickly as possible.

186 April 16 , 1971 (MR. GRAHAM, cont'd. ) ..... With these few remarks, Mr. Speaker or Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will leave the floor open for someone else to participate and I look forward to further debate in this House dealing with estimates and bills as they come up. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member from Wellington. MR . PHILLIP M. PETURSSON (Wellington): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I wish to take oppor tunity of joining in the debate briefly, but first I would wish to offer you, and the Speaker, con gratulations and good wishes on the assumptions of the important posts as Speaker of this House and as Deputy Speaker. It is an office that carries with it great responsibility but I am confident that it is in capable hands.

In addition to that, the Speaker and his Deputy have the �goodwill of all of the members of the House, as has been indicated by their congratulations and good wishes, and I am sure that the Speaker will be given both co-operation and every help and consideration in a post that is fairly difficult. I have wondered, Mr. Deputy Speaker - and I have to address you as that because I wish to refer directly to the Speaker - I have wondered whether he plans to follow in the footsteps of some of his illustrious predecessors whose portraits decorate the walls of several rooms in this building, and notably in Ro om No. 254.

I wonder whether he plans on emulating them to the extent of growing what some term'1face foliage'- in other words, a beard. It might be an inter esting innovation, but whether it would have general approval or not I don't know. That will be one of the decisions that is not covered by the rules.

But, apart from that, there is an innovation that has been made in the House that has, so far as I know, the unanimous approval of all the members, and that is of having young ladies, having girls as pages, and this is no reflection on the young gentlemen that are here but, this being a Chamber composed almost entirely of men, we do have a soft spot for the ladies and, as I have told the boys , after all, the girls are much more attractive to men than they are.

Their pretty smiles come so readily and they're bound to have a moderating effect on both sides of the House when tempers rise and temptation becomes great to use abusive words used in terms that can hardly be described as parliamentary. But, having the young ladies in the House, it surprised me a little bit that the Honourable Member from Rock Lake should yesterday have seized upon the opportunity of making refer ence to and displaying a paper of which he greatly disapproved.

He s.aid the language was ter rible and he wanted to have the president of the University and the professors of the University called up on the mat for a hearing. But, Mr. Speaker, I saw nothing in that paper - I read it through - that everyone in this House, I think wit!:iout exception, nothing that hasn't been heard by them before. Of course, it is a form of barnyard language but something that in different circumstances we have become used to hearing. I can't remember far enough bac k to recall the day when I was not exposed to language somewhat similar to what appeared in that paper, and even much worse.

It should be realized by the members here who disapprove of that paper and the language that it displayed, that we can go in almost any direction from this building and inside of ten minutes we'll be in a dozen or more movie houses where pictures are being shown, where language and scenes far worse than anything described in the paper are available to anyone who has the price of admission, and I think far too much can be made of a thing of this sort. Youngsters , or children, have a tendency to experiment, experiment with :words that they hear to see how far they can go before disapproval is expressed.

Their mothers wash out their mouths with soap, perhaps, and then they congregate and giggle to themselves thinking that they have actually put something over on the older people. When they get a little older, they still continue to experiment to see how far they can go, and the kind of re action that we had here yesterday encourages them in thinking that they are disturbing or up setting the status quo. The paper was published by engineering students , I understand, and engineering students at the University pride themselves on being rather rough and tough.

They feel that that goes with the engineering profession.

But as they grow up they take places of respectability, im portance in our community, they become good citizens, and any kicking over of the traces that may have been done while they were still in their early years doesn't seem to have any adverse effects on their abilities as engineers or as citizens in the community; I have, myself, I have four brothers who are engineers; my son is an engineer; and I find nothing in any of them, regardless of what may have happened or what may have been said while they were attending the university in the early days, I see nothing in any of them that would reflect on them, on I

April 16 , 1971 187 (MR . PETURSSON, cont'd. ) .... their character, or on anybody else in the community, and I think that to make too much of a thing of that sort is going as far in the other direction as they appear to have gone in the direction which is being deplored. Now, to continue on with some of the congratulations and welcom ing. I look forward to joi ning in the welcome that will be given to the two recently elected members when they take their se ats, I expect next week, during the middle of next week.

I congratulate them both on an important victory, important to them, important to the government and important to the province. I have every expectation that they will acquit themselves well and effectively during the next two years in this House. I would be remiss in my obligations to a man whom I had great admiration for if I did not make reference to Maitland steinkopf who was the Chairman of the Centennial Corporation, and I take the opportunity of speaking just a few words in recognition of him and what he did. He played an important

part in the Centennial celebrations and contributed greatly, not only in Manitoba but right across the country, to what the celebrations became. Few people save those who worked with him and for him realized fully just how much of himself he gave in his effort to make the Centennial year of this province a worthy celebration , and that celebration started at the first minute past midnight on the first of January of this last year, and it ended on the last moment of the last day in the year, on the 3l st of December.

The Speech from the Throne , as it was read, included mention of some worthy recognition of Maitl and Steinkopf, of a man who literally gave his life that Manitoba Centennial might be successful, and I look forward to that event. I trust it will not be too long before it is observed. It will be , and it must be, in keeping with the stature of the man as he showed himself to be during that year.

I had the opportunity not long before his death of paying tribute to him in his presence and in the presence of a number of his friends, and I vould, as I say, be remiss in my personal debt to him on behalf of the department I administered during the Centennial year if I did not on this occasion speak these few words in recognition of what he was and what he did, brief though they may be , in recognition of the great, the very great contribution that he made to the pro vince; and, as I said, Centennial would have been a lesser observance than it was had he not been in charge.

That brings me to the offering of congratulations to the new Leader of the Opposition. I congratulate him on having won the confidence of his party and of his party members , the dele gates to their leadership convention. But then, as someone has asked, he says what choice did they have ? -- (Interjection) -- The vote on the leadership showed that there was great un certainty among the delegates because they were almost equally divided in their choice of a leader, and it could have easily been one as it was the other.

I am sure that that message will come through in their caucus meetings from time to time and we will become aware of a condi tion in their caucus somewhat other than complete happiness or complete harmony. But having said that, I'll return to the Leader of the Opposition a few paragraphs , sentences later.

The former Leader of the Opposition, and I pay my respects to him as an honest and a sincere man, he will probably feel re lieved to be rid of the leadership, particularly after the two by-elections that were held recently, and perhaps more particularly since rumors have sprung up about the possibility of a seat in the senate waiting for him. I don't know whether this is true or not or whether it is just rum or, but if it is more than rum or he will be happy to give up his seat in the House and his seat as a leader to accept a seat in that Old Folks Home in Ottawa; although he isn't all that old.

In the meantime, in addition to his duties here, he has reverted to his former trade, although in a somewhat different capacity. He is now described as being the Canadian Presi dent of a United states based company which owns a chain of funeral homes in the United States and Canada. His main duty seems to be to travel across Canada to negotiate the purchase of funeral homes on behalf of this company that he represents, which has headquarters in Houston , Texas.

I have cl ippings from several papers , from Vancouver, from Toronto, from Saskatoon, from Montreal, and from Winnipeg, all of which question the wisdom of this invasion into Canada by burial corporations and the taking over of Canajian funeral operations. The Fi nancial Post in a headline says: "Look What Americans are Tak ing Over". And the Province in Vancouve r says: "Texans are Burying our Dead. " The Star Phoenix in Saskatoon says: "F uneral Homes Take Over Concerns Saskatchewan Directors" - that means funeral directors.

In Winnipeg, four funeral homes have been taken over and in every province except the Maritime s, funeral parlors have been bought up by the Texas based corporation; and this is the business , the former Conservative leader is involved in. One man is quoted in the province as saying about

188 April 16 , 197 1 (MR . PETURSSON, cont'd. ) . the Texas based operation, he says they are taking sur- plus oil money and investing it into funeral service companies. I guess there's a lot of that kind of oil money around in Houston. And the paper comments further: "Texans have found a way to take oil out of the ground and to put people back into the ground and to make it profitable both ways. " And it's interesting to hear what the Honourable Member for Minnedosa says about his involvement and the business that he has taken over as President of the Can ada-wide , whatever it is , funeral burying corporation.

The Free Press quotes him as saying on April 3rd, "That there is a need for a national company to operate funeral homes for more than reasons of econ omics. In terms of urban areas you have high capital costs and this way there can be service within reas onable cost. We feel this is one of the solutions. " But then a Montreal undertaker seems to think differently. Mr .... in Montreal explains how the corporation operates when they step in and buy up funeral homes , and he says, "Say your business is worth $5 00, 000, they give you $1 00, OOO cash and $400 , OOO in shares in your own business.

The business then gets listed on the market and maybe even the very next day your $400, OOO worth of shares is suddenly worth no more than $200, OOO or $2 50, OOO. You get bought out with your own money." This is the opinion of one of the undertaking fraternity in Montreal. · Then it is reported in the province, the newspaper called "The Province" in B. C. , Van couver, that the Service Co rporation International of Houston had almost doubled total earningfl and gross revenues which rose to $1 5 million from $7 1/2 million in the year previous.

And a good question in connection with a quote of this kind is - at whose expense is that kind of pro fit made; who is paying the kind of money that gives that kind of a profit. The only answer is that in the proportion that they exist in society it is the people who can least afford to pay that kind of profit who are the ones called upon to do it.

But this method, of course, is an example of private enterprise whose main concern is for profits and what the former Leader of the Op position Party means by reasonable costs of course is what the company considers to be reasonable but not what is reasonable from the point of view of the c onsumer. And in that category, the consumer, how many are there who could be classai as other than poor or middle class who can ill- afford to pay out $6 00 or $700 let alone $1, OOO or $1 , 500 or more for a funeral.

Yet these are the people from whom the profits mainly come because there are so many more of them than there are of those who can afford to pay out large sums of money. But now just for a moment I would want to return to the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition because a strange metamorphosis seems to have taken place in his outlook since he came into leadership in opposition. All of a sudden in his new capacity he has discovered poverty, he has discovered poor people; reference to them is continually on his lips now when he is debating with the government members on this side.

I do not recall that while the former government was in office and he then the Minister of Industry, I don't recall that he ever gave any prominent mention to poor people but he may have very occasionally, I didn't recall it. But now during the past several months he has made the discovery that there are such people as the poor and now his heart bleeds for them since he has discovered them; yet he seldom mentions the poor even now without following the reference to them with a statement on the importance of private enterprise and of the dire straits in which private enterprise finds itself in these days.

That is he feels we must concern ourselves with the corporations, the invest ment companies, the private enterprisers and their fortunes, their well-being. It is when he speaks of these people that tears come to his eyes, a tremor to his voice as he regales us with tales of how hard the rich have to struggle to retain their riches or to add to them. It's al most enough - and I say almost - to cause a we althy man to wish to rid himsel f of the burden that causes him so much suffering. I am sure that the takeover of our funeral homes by a Texas corporation finds favour in my friends eyes.

It is the kind of private enterprise or free enterprise that he approves of, where.· he accepts the exploitation of the poor and when it brings a han dsome profit to his pet the private enterprise , the free enterpriser , however ruthless he may be he rejoices. However, it has been said it takes all kinds to make up the membership of the Legislative Assembly and we do have all kinds here holding forth daily in this magnificent building wh ich has on occasion been likened to a great castle set down here in the middle of the Ci ty of Winni� peg.

The building we admit is stately, has a grandeur that gives it a certain resemblance to the stateliness of a castle but in recent days the resemblance has grown even cl oser than be fore. In the castles of old there always seemed to be at least two requisites. One was some kind of a court jester or a harlequin and the other was a ghost or two . And now just recently I

April 16, 1971 189 (MR. PETURSSON, cont'd. ) .... . we have acquired both, a jester and a ghost. We have become immersed in the atmosphere of a castle of old and whether it will give us stature or not I don't know, time only will tell.

But we can imagine that these galleTies will fill up daily to listen to our jester perform, to see him dance as jesters er harlequins did, and he has made a tentative beginning; but we may expect later to see him appear in this Chamber decked out in the bangles and spangles and caps and bells to dance and to cavort in the open area in front here to entertain the applauding audience. I looked up the word "cavort" in the dictionary - I wasn't too sure of it - and it is defined there as: cavort: To prance about like a horse. Whether this is what he would do or not I don't know.

He might dance and he might prance, he might even bring his little drum to re-enact some drummer boy scenes from earlier days. And we have among us not only a new Leader in Opposition we also have a comedian, a harlequin, a court jester. Not only that but we also have that ghost that I referred to: An insubstantial, shadowy, pol itically frustrated being, a ghost of unfulfi lled hopes and aspirations.

This being haunts the halls, 1he shadows , the dark corners and behind pillars , veritably moving about from floor to floor , restless just as the wraiths of old who never found any peace of soul but were condemend to haunt the halls of old castles never finding rest and never finding solace for their tortured minds.

As the aw.areness of this wraith spreads we may expect children who come into the building to want to catch a glimpse of him -- or should I say it, I don't know whether a ghost is feminine or masculine or neuter -- and then in their search they will per haps begin to sing a little chant as they peer around corners and through the halls and into the dark places: "Is he here, is he there , is he somewhere on the stair; Is he in the gallery , is _, he in the hall, is he anywhere at all ?" In years to come some will wonder how this all came about. What were the origins of this ghostly apparition.

Then the story will be told when people begin to enquire what the origins of this ghost were; and the story will be something along the lines of "once there was a political group in this House which sought out and selected a new leader. This ieader proposed to concoct a strong medicine to facilitate the.election of party candidates in two constituencies. He stirred up his brew and made it potent offering his services to revitalize his party. Then the elections were held and the people spoke and indi cated in no uncertain terms that as far as medicine was concerned they did not want "Asper in.

" Now he roams the corridors and the stairs a man without a recognizable party in the House , condemned to be a shadow for the next many months , alone , without power , without a voice. He cannot even move a non-confidence motion in the government. But even if he could his motion would probably be no :o.ore meaningful than the amendments are that have been moved in this ses sion. The Speech from the Throne is a document that sets out clearly and forthrightly the directions in whi ch this government proposes to move. There's no misunderstanding.

The opposition has offered no improvement upon it , no sug gestions that are more far-seeing than what is already contained in the Speech. But even so, the Opposition has to play its role. It has to carry out the ritual that Oppositions generally sort of fall into. The traditional role of trying to point a better way. To take a stance that past practice calls it to take however diffi cult it may be to find any vulnerable spot. And in thinking about this I feel a certain sympathy for the Opposition and its fruitless exercise.

Knowing as I do that even if a comb ination of the Beatitudes , the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord's Prayer, the Ten Commandments and the ut terances of the prophets were to be included in the Thr one Speech, the Opposition would still feel called upon to move an amendment pointing out a better way. I have li stened and shall continue to listen to the debates from the Opposition side with interest but I assure the members in the Opposition that the effective leadership is on this side of the House. Th ank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourat le Member for Roblin. MR . McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, at 5: 15 and late on a Friday afternoon I would be much more pleased to sit in my seat, but after the remarks of the Honourabl e Member from Welli ng ton, I come to my feet to challenge some of the things that that man has said in this House this afternoon. And I challenge him as a busine ssman nd I doubt very nnc':i if there are many mem bers on that side of the House can speak about the world of - free enterprise , was it, he called it - corporation.

My friend the Member from Dau phin, my friend the Member from Thompson they know how to make a buck and it ends about there -- to show me somebody that has some wisdom about the busine ss people in this province . A bus iness man is not a very popular per son amongst the eyes of the Socialist because the Honourable Member from Wellington come out loud and clear, and I fail to see in this Speech from the Throne that is before us today,

190 April 16, 197 1 (MR . McKENZ IE , cont'd. ) .. .. any evidence that this government has any - how can I say it? has any sympathy for a lowly country businessman such as I. I recall Mr. Speaker , I recall the stereotype of a businessman that these Socialists talk about. I recall seeing this man on a tele vision screen no t too long !!J::O. And here was a portrayal, Mr. Speaker, of an unscrupulous , ruthless , dictator type of individual who would stop at nothing, stop at nothing, Mr. Speaker, to ma ke his point and to gain a profit.

And that's the same philosophy that come out of the eyes of the Honourable Member from Wellington a few moments ago. Before provincial labout boards across this province and across this great nation, a businessman' s every move and every word comes under suspect, because of the fact that he's a business man. When he stands up and attempts to hold down some of his costs to operate a business in this country today by resisting the ever continuing demands of higher wages , what happens ? They scream he's anti-la bour. He's anti-labour. He's even against motherhood.

If a businessman works too closely with other. businessmen, what happens then ? They say he's conspiring against the consumer. That's exactly what the Member from Wellington just said, and he becomes suspect to rigorous investigation and assumes everything is guilty until he's proved innocent. If he asks government for help, Mr. Spe aker, even in the areas where govern ment are the ones that created the trouble, he's told to stop complaining and stop whining and get with it. That's the problems of being a businessman in the eyes of this government.

In formal surveys that I've seen show that the pursuit of a -- how can I say -- a profitable opera tion of doubtful objectives -- in the eyes of our school children today a businessman is a crook. A businessman - the survey was done by the Chambers of Commerce of this province not very long ago. Most students said he makes 50 percent profit. He makes 75 percent profit. Serie of the university professors, read some of the eulogies and things that's coming out of our univers ity today about businessmen.

Many members of the general public stand up today and think that the businessman is a crool5, that he's making all this enormous money. And I again got the remark from the Honourable Member from Wellington t.:iday and I resent it very much. For some unknown reason, Mr. Speaker, ma king a profit in Manitoba or making a pro fit in Canada today is imcompatible with respectability, and I re sent it very much.

And yet, it's this very same businessman who's expected to raise capital , raise capital, he's expected to prepare a return to his shareholders, he's expected to provide new jobs, he's expected to pay a large portion of the taxes at all levels of government, he's expected to create new pro ducts, he's expected to fight the competitions from all sides, he's expected to . fight all the bureaucrats , he's expected to collect sales tax and send it into the Minister of Flnance, he's expected to collect and remit unemployment insurance and match it dollar for dollar , he's expected to what else ?

He's expected to collect Canada Pens ion Plan from his employees and match that one dollar for dollar and remit it, and it goes on and on . A :MEMBER: Whether he makes a profit or not. MR. McKENZIE: Whether he makes a profit or not. I am alarmed, I am alarmed that there is a government in this province, Mr. Speaker, that still doesn't understand what a businessman means , or what it is to make a profit. Is it a sin to make a profit ? The Honour able Member from Wellington says it is. He says it's the most dastardly thing for a man to be able to stand up and defend his little business and make a profit. Mr.

Speaker, I defend, I d3- fend the profit system. I defend the free enterprise system. I don't sa y it's perfect but I think it has a_ lot of merit and it has done a good job for the world and for this country and for Mani toba. And I'll give you a classic example. I'll give you a classic example, Mr. Speaker. Let's look at West Germany. I say West Germany has the most business minded government and the most business minded people in this world today. And a tremendous growth. The Minister of Industry and Commerce should take a listen to this one.

The tremendous growth of that country, West German , in the very short space of ten years is an indication of the true results of what can happen with those kind of people and that kind of government. In West Germany, Mr. Speaker, making a profit is not a sin. It' s a highly respected ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I know the exuberance of the members is getting a little high, but it's almost 5:3 0 and I think that they can take some of that out when they hit the fresh air. MR. CHERNIACK: ... the practice that a person may inquire whether or not he could ask a question . . . MR.

SP EAKER: If the member for Roblin wishes to yield , he'll indicate. MR. McKENZIE : Mr. Speaker , if you'll permit me , I cannot be here on Monday, so I have a few remarks I wo uld like to read into the record, if you will permit. But I submit,

April 16, 1971 191 (MR. McKENZIE , cont'd. ) ..... Mr. Speaker , that it's high time that the gover nment of this province, and I will say Canada as well , provide a more favourable climate for a profitable businessma n to try and make a buck, and for a profitable business to operate , and that's going to be a very very difficult assignment , Mr. Speaker , to ask of this government,. this govern ment of today with all this bureaucracy and all these great philosophers. You know, Mr. Speaker, that 37 percen t of our gross national product in this country today is spent on big government.

People calling a businessma n ... go and.collect the sales tax, go and collect the unemployment insurance, go and collect the Canada pension plan, for what ? For free - and match it. Now is there anything wrong with that ? I'm not complaining but I'm telling you some of the problems of being businessmen and it's high time government recognized that a businessman is doing his share , he's doing it well and he has some problems. It's interesting, Mr.

Speaker, this Socialist government that we have across from us here with its large following of bureaucrats - they've added 800 in the past 12 months - have taken a position that government can do it better than people , government can do it better than bus iness men, and I submit to our First Minister -- unfortunate ly he's not in his chair today -- that his government would do well , would do well to re vert some of the serious and dangerous trends that they are E>etting against businessmen in this province. And if we're to become serious , Mr.

Speaker, about preser ving a free society, I submit that they better wat eh which direction they are moving. Let

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-3-9
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 3rd hansardpdf 9.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	fca70ce908f3007785b1aebd3f25e9a79021c891

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