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0\ay 12,1980 Tape No. 144 2 AH-1 The House met at 3:00p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chairm MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! I am sure hon. members would like to join wit~ me in welcoming to the gallery today eight employees of CN ~arine who are presently taking a French course and they are here with their two professors, Mr. LeClaire and Mr. Leangevin. SOME HON. ~~ERS: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAI.\!IESON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) and if it is not possible for him to answer it in a sense off the cuff I will understand. He has been making references,as have members on both sides 1 to the increase in the size of the work force in Newfoundland. Given the comments which many of us heard over the weekend with regard to the excessive number of entrants in~o the fishery,does the minister have at his fingertips the size of ~~e increase in terms of new entrants into the fishery and the extent to which they are in a sense major entrants into the fishery or just peripheral in terms of fishing effort? MR. SPEAKER: MR.

DINN: The hon. the Minister of Labcur and Manpower . 0\r. Speaker, a very, very difficul~ question to answer. The last time I saw figures on it for last year ,it was something like- including plant workers, etc., and we measure this in man-days,so it does not necessarily mean that we have new people into the fishery - it is hard to get a real good fix on it-but in man­ days it is something like 1500 people, you know, in man-days got into the fishery last year. Now a lot of that can be attributed to the plan~s in St. Anthony and along ~he St.

Barbe coast open for longer periods of time. can be attributed to people getting back into the fishery and 1 of course,more plant workers etc. But,no,I have not got a fix on exactly 3773

:-1ay 12, 1980 Tape ~o. 1442 i\H-2 !oi:R . OINN : t:he nwnber of people ,buc in man-days I believe t:he last. :iqure I saw was something like 1500. !oi:R. Ji'...'IIESON: ~- S?EAKE::t (Sim :ns); Opposition. :-!!t. J""'II£SON: A supplementary. A suppl~~encary.

The hon . ~~e Leader o! the ! wonder i! che minist.er 'NOuld cake under advisement a proposal chat. we cake a look at. it: in the sense dlat. - pe rhaps I can phrase :ny quest:ion this •.ta:' - does someone who has spe:1t:, say, six or ei~ht weeks in t:h e squid fishery, let us say, which !las had a very big e.xpansion in t:he last ll.tt:le while, does he or she , because '"e discovered on ::he weekend there '"ere ~uit.e a :nnnber of fisher­ persons as well, constit.uce a ne•"' ent::anee inco the 'A'Ork 5orce? 1-iould the hon. mi:u.st:er eithe:, ii he has t:he answer :~ow give ~t. or '•'O Uld he undercake to see ·,o~hat: he can !:ind out about it:? 3 7 71~

May 12, 1980 Tape No. 1443 SD - l MR. SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will undertake to attel!llt to get a fix on it, tne difficulty here being that we do not have a lot of research staff in the Department of Labour and Manpower. We attempt to look at our Statistics Canada figures which are not very accurate and I will see, what, of the Opposition. ~~: MR. S. NEJ'o.ll"! , if anything, I can come up with for the hon. Leader The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr.

Soeaker, in the absence of the Minister o£ ~ply and Services 1 I have to direct my question to the hon. the Premier. Would the hon. the Premier give the House, the members, some idea when the supply of flags, the proposed new flag, the supply that is now on hand, could the hon. gentleman give us, not the precise date but, say, some idea when these flags were ordered"? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFOFD : Mr. Speaker, the right designation for the minister to which the member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary) is talking about is the Minister of Public WOrks and Services (Mr. H.

Young) , "!'he:!:e is not a Minister of Supply and Services in the government right now , !:here is the Ministe::: of Public: Worl:s and Services, and I 'nQUld have to check with that department to see if the hon. the member for LaPoile is talking about the sheet that has been sent out or talking about flags.

I do not know that any flags have been ordered,because it would be rather presumptuous to orde::: any flags except those that were necessary to show people what the proposed flag is and then, after the proposed flag has been fully debated, the bill, and whether it is passed or defeated at that point in time , we would move into the next phase as to whether in fact you would order any. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY i Supplementary, Mr. Speake~. Supplementary, the hon. member for That is precisely what ! am trJing to 377C.

May 12, 1980 Tape No. 1443 SD - 2 ~~~: find out, Mr. Speaker; How many flags were ordered? Was there one, two, half a dozen? How many? The hon. the Premier must have some idea seeing this till is in the name of the hon. gentleman. How many flags are on hand at the present time? MR. SPEAF::ER (Simms) : The hen. the Pre'llti.er. PREMIER PECY-FOFD: There is one on hand right now which is downstairs in the lobby. I think the committee ordered a nutnber of others so that they would be available for people to look at. So there is only, as far as I know, four or five flags.

I would have to check with the members of the COlllll\ittee to find out. I have the artswer coming here now. The only flags that have been ordered, the Chai~an of the Committee informs me, have been five that have been ordered by him as Chainnan of the Committee. MR. S. NEARY: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA..'I(ER: Final supplementary, the hen. member for LaPoile. ~R. S.

NEARY: I would assume,then,that these reports that we have been hearing on radio and so forth are untrue, that there are no boxes piled up in Confederation Building or any other building containing the proposed new flag ,that the government was not presumptuous in assuming ~~at this flag was going to be adopted by this House? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . P RElo!IE~PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we do not take actions on things unless and until it becomes law ,and after that occurs then we take action . MR. S. NEARY: (Inaudible) P~~IER PECXfORO: So I can only tell the hon. member that once again the ramours 3775

May 12, 1980 Tape No. 1444 EL - 1 PREMIER PEC!CFORD: that he likes to begin and instigate, ~re, once again, totally and absolutely unfounded. MR. NEARY: Unparliamentary, Sir. that is. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hon. the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address my question to the Minister of Labour and Manpower (J. Dian) or the Minister of Fisheries (J. Morgan),so probably both can listen and decide who would like to answer.

There seems to be some confusion, at least through the media,as to exactly when the amendment to the Workers' Compensation Act for the fishermen is going to be brought in and in fact implemented. The Minister of Fisheries indicated in a Ministerial Statement that he hoped to get this thing in in time for late this fishing season or early next fishing season 1and the Minister of Labour and Man­ power in his statement indicated he hoped to get this legislation into the House so it can be implemented within the next few weeks,or at least brought into the House within the next few weeks.

So, I wonder if ei~~er minister would undertake to inform ~~e House as to ex~ctly when the legislation will be coming in and when it could, in fact, be implemented? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. !ffi. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, this is hearsay right now because I have not actually seen it,but the draft, I believe, is on its w~y to my desk right now. If that draft is in order, then it will be in here as soon as possible, the draft ammendment to the Workers' Compensation Legislation.

So, all things being equal, all things going well, the legislation should be in the House tomorrow or the next day. MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary, ¥~. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde . 3777

May 12' 1980 Tape No. 1444 EL 2 MR. F. ROWE: I thank the minister for his answer, Mr. Speaker. If in fact this legislation is brought in in the next few days, I take it it will be a priority in terms of getting it through first, second and third reading,committee stage and what have you. That would be a priority. Well, the minister could porbably answer when I get to the second part of it. If in fact it is passed within the next few weeks, what possibilities are there that this legislation will in fact be implemented in time for this to take in part of this fishing season? MR.

SPEAKER (!imms): The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, you know, we have certain priorities in the House right now. We have the flag on right now and the - SOME HON. ME..'~B'ERS: Oh, oh MR. J. DINN: - and the hon. the House Leader in conjunction with - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh ! MR. J. DINN: - the Premier and many other ministers decide on priorities in the House. Right now it is the flag . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. J.

Dil'i'N: Right after that or shortly there- after, I would think that we bring in Workers' Compensation, if at all possible, If we can, if it is possible at all, I want Workers' Compensation for the fishermen for the remainder of the season when it is passed by this House, if it is passed by this House,and I would assume that it will be. MR. F. ROw"E: I'...R. SPEAKER: member for Trinity - Bay de Verde . A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final Supplementary, the hon. the 3778

~a.y 12, l9SO Tape NO. l444 21. - J MRA F. ROWE: M:r, S~U:er 1 with all due respect to the importance of hilv.ing il distinctive flag for the Province of New­ founcililnd and Lilbrildor, whether it will go through or not is another question,btit doeS not the ~nister think that the ~rtilnce of getting this legislation through for the fishermen is 1111:1ch more ~portant than the fl•q?And if in fact it is brouqht inltO the Bouse of Assell!bly I will not the flaq de~te be set aside .in order to in fact try to deal - MR. s. m;ARY: Right on! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. F. ROWE: -with that particular legislation. 377°

=·:a y ! : . 19

a) Tape :-to. !4-45 i:>'h - 1 :!~~_2H!:: _: . I think it is :ar more i~oortant. ~r. s~eaker. c~at this kind of legislation get through and I suggest that the ~on . members ooposite qe : their priorities scrai<;!lt. ~0~_=: ;!~::!_E:-!3:::~~: Hear~ ::.e-a~! :.!£:.:-:1 _:_ £!1!...! : ~~. S?eake ~ # c ~e ho~. oem~e~s O!J.?OS.!. te, '"'ho see!T! co be do in~ a lot of ::>ounduq on their desks hac man1. many years to bring in Workers ' Compensation !or :isher~en and :ailed co ~o th:3 . ~OME HOH. MEM3!~$: Oh, oh! ~R:._~. ::::::~: ~lr.

Speake r, t·e in ~ en d to brtnc; in Worke rs · Compen sat ion as snon as the leg.1.s!a :ion !s brouah : be:or~ : ~e House. lih en the draft pro oosal arr ives o:~ my desk, w~en I s~e ~t ~o~o r:ow 1 i~ it is i~ o rCe = ! ~ill bri~a 2: 1nco the 9ouse tomorrow. As to whether chat ~ill ~e num~er one tomorrow a~cernoon or number two tomorrow a:ternoon,th at will !:>e decided. The :ac ~ o~ c~e ~a~te~ lS t~at we ca~~o~ Co anyc~inc; wich Wo rke rs' ~Om?ensation ~n chis Meuse unc~l the leg.1.slat~on arrives . '!~.~· ROI·IE : ;.. ;>O.!.nc o: o=Ce-= , \::- .

S:>~ake :-. :1..:~ S?EA:<E'US i:lms ): ;.. poi~:: 6~ t> r ~~r . tha ~o:-; mem~er for T=~~~~y - 3ay de ~erd~. XR . :. ?C'1 ,rr: ~ne ho~ . ~:r ; -~; ~ 3~o ut : ~ ~al1z: -------- :hac. 1 in :ac: . a Li~~:a! a d::tinis~ :atlo~ diC OrL::<_; !.:1 Aorke.:s' Cocpe ~sa:~ ~n :o: ~~e Cee~-sea !is~e:y 1~ 1~63 ace ~e~ g aCout to b ~l~ ~ i: !~ 1372 fo:- the insnore !is~e ~ ~e~ exceo: !or one ~ino~ ::>:-oblem , ,~e r...:4!re ~ur!e-d out of o:fi:e. SOME !!~!: . :tE: :n>~: - He a:-, hear! ~!.:"'~~?::;.:<~.!...:.. ?rcer, please : ~h!t obviously is ~o~ a ooi~t o: o:-:ie: ~~e ~on. ~e~b~= =~= ?o~~ au ?~=~· 37 en

:•!ar 12, 1980 '!'ape :-lo . 1<:45 i)~; - 2 ~!::\. ;: . HOD::l!R: ~ r . Speak2 :# a question !or the ~inLsce r o! ::eucat~o~ (~s. 7erge l I und ers ~a~o thac th~ ? rovince an nu ally rec eives some S300,000 fro m the ~ederal GovernMent air marked ~or bilin~ual eoucaticn in t~e ?rov in ce.

I also have b ee ~ ~ ol~ ~Y f ra~c ~ teache~s across t~e P:o~ince that t~is year 3os e of those ~ u~ds ~5ve gone ~~to :he c~~e ra l revenue,a:1C. onl:r a little ove r $100, 000 has oaen kept out w~ :.c h is z~ppo sec to be use e for cor.tmitmen~s ·~~~:.ch the govern~e~t already made , a ~c : ~ould like to as k c~e ~:n~s~ar il:..._y t:iis u::.?recede:'\ta:C ~ove ~as be~n :.a :~en co ~u : ! ·.I:"" .. ear ­ ~a :ke: ~o : ~~li:'\cual e~uca ~!on i~~o t~e oener ~! ~evar.ue? ~R. SPEAKES (Sinns) ':'~e hon . the ~i:1.is1:.er o~ Education. =·~~ . v::a~::_: Mr.

Speake r, t~er e are a number o~ =e~so~s :o= ~his acc~on. -~~E.?.!..·- · ~~}t~~?.: ~! ?._. _ L_.- ~H9 .. ~~: ~~c reason ac all. ~£:~~~: O r dt2~~ :>l~aae . :: is ext ~e~el y ~i!!icul: ~ea: ~::e ::t!..-r: :.s~ e= s"'>ea:.:l~<- .- r,:ot=:C as!< ~1:..; : :: k.ee., yc ·.:.~ ~~~:!:~: Co~~ ,~s : a littl~. '!'he ~on. ::h e :! i ;,is~c:- o: ~=::~~~:.o:.. .~S ._"~: =~::-sc o: .ll ! , ~: ~ .

S':lea<~:-. ::- .a ~~ ~ ~o~ of ac:o~~=i~o ~o= = ~~s ~~~ci!~ q !==~ : ~e ro~~:al ~cv~=~ - ~e~~ :o~ b ~!~~ caal ~roc:a~~s ~~~ h~e~ ~~~ s ~~~9=~ ~: zc=P. con~~o~~=s~ ~~ ~h~ oas ~ as ~o wtec~er ~~ shc~l~ ~3~e eo~e ei:eccly into cene:al r~ve~ue o: ~ee~ a?~l !e ~ ~i:e::l~ ~or bil~~cual o ~o ~=a~~es. The Au~i:or ~9~~~al e! ~c = ?ro~!~ce ~oo~ =~e ~os~ =~ on :~ :h e 9asc :~a: ~~ shou:~ sl ~a~s hav~ ~n~~ i:::.o ~cn e:-al :eve:'l U'! j~«Zt;reve:- 1 =~~ :Sac~eury ~= Stat.e ':~C~ 3~ ojooaic~ pos~=~~~- A: an~ ~3t a,t~is !s ~~s~ a~ acco~~=~~~ -=~ :a~: • 378 1

,. a y 1 2 .- l 9 8 0 '!'ap e ~Io. 1445 :J:·; - 3 ~1 S . "~! E :\ ~ E : :·1 o s t o f t ~ e other provinces of Canada in the cast did ?Ut the fund1ng ;-.;hich tP.ey ~eceived into their general revenue and a?plied only a fraction of it rather than the total for bilincual proorammes. Newfoundland and Labrador,on the other hand, in the past always scrupulou3ly 3 7 8 2

May 12, 1980 Tape No. 1446 NH - 1 MS VERGE: applied the funds for the bilingual programmes for which they were given by the federal government. Because of the actions of other provinces of the country 1 it seems the federal government have indicated that it will be moving cut of ~~is kind of funding. It is difficult to pin down their exac -t position at the moment~ but as of about a year ago ~~e Liberal Administration in cffice at the time indicated that over the next five years that it would be ~liminating this kind of funding called formula grants for bilingual programmes.

So that is one factor in our government's decision this year. The other factor,of course,is the competition for the spending of the tax dollars, the great demands on our treasury,and the needs in other areas. So that for these reasons, as the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) indicated, a decision was made this year to put the approximately $300,000 from the Secretary of State for bilingual programmes into the general revenue fund and to use only about $126,000 of it for bilingual programmes, to continue the important programmes. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER(Simm~ Port au Port. MR.

HODDER: --- Oh, oh! A supplementary. A suppl~~entary, ~~e han. m~~er for As I understand from what the minister says, she has admitted to exactly what I said, ~~at the $200,000 has now been taken and thrown into the education system which was clearly ear­ marked for bilingual education. Could ~~e minister tell me which programmes will be neglected ~~is year? Because I understand from our officials that some progr~~es will be neglected. I believe some travel programmes to St. Pierre, travel to Quebec - l'.N HON. MEMBER: All for naught. MR.

HODDER: - the Kindergarten to Grade III teachers, a certain bursary for that will be cut off, but I am not sure that they have all their priorities straighte ned out, Could 'the minister tell me what will be cut out in this pro~amme? 3783

~lay 12, 1980 X.~. S?~-'CE~ (Simms) : MS 1/E~GE: Ta~e No. 1446 ll!-1 - 2 The hon. t~e Minister of EC~ca~~on . Mr . speaker, che important ?rogrammes, l.ncluding ::...'te bursaries for high sc!1ool scudencs goi~g to the :~iquelon Is land Summ er Schoo l will be continued , as well as che funding of French language ir:st-""Uction i:1 !.al:> raC.or West. There are a number o! ?rogra;mces, approx~ace!y fi:teen , which will possibly be eliminated, which will :lOt be possible •.:ith t..~e limicec amount: c~ !unc:li.,g '"'hich will re~in.

I ca:u-.ot rattle of! t..~e complete list off the top of ~y head . ! can say a couple of th~'ll: one is t.'le supply o: extra learning macerials aho'Y~ and beyor.ci the :exts which would be normally required through t.~e teaching of the curriC'.lll:lll, a.-.c another is ;:::ants !or teachers upgrading t:-.eir quali!ications. I c~~ uncier--ake to supply the complete lise tomorrow. MR. S?Ei\KER: member for ?ort au ?o:::c. ~R. :!CODER: i\ fi:1al supplementary, t.."""e !:on.

I woulc )USc l~~e to ask t!:e mL~ister, dces this mean t:ha:: th!.s is a •..rithd!."awal o: ::he government's support a:1d commi:::r.ent to preservi.r.g -:..'le French cul t~e anc language in tile ?:-ovi.nce, 378!.

May 12, 1980, Tape 1447, Page 1 -- apb MR. HODDER: particularly the French culture and language of the Newfoundland French? MR. SPEAKER(Simmsl: The hon. the Minister of Education. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, our government has made a strong commitment to the teaching of French and to the language and also the culture over the past several years. Our Province has been outstanding in the context of the whole country in scrupulously applyi ng the federal funds for bilingual progr~~es when most of the other provinces did not do that. SOME HON. M&~ERS: Hear, hear! MS.

VERGE: Newfoundland and Labrador was an example, a leader for the whole country in implementing special bilingual programmes. The French teachers with whom I met just a couple of weeks ago at their Special Interest Council annual meeting in Corner Brook, told me about all the advances that have been made in teaching French in our schools in the past several years.

The time has come, howe ver, to look at other needs in education and to put an emphasis on some other areas while at the same time continuing what are considered to be the most important and essential extra and special bilingual programmes to enrich not onl y the French curriculum but the quality of the total educational experience for students. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I had indicated a final supplmentary. A new question, the hon. the me~ber for Bcnavista North. 11R. STIRLING: I yield to my colleague from Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock), Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEA KER: A new question, the hon . the ~ember for Eagle River . 3785

Y.ay 12 , 19SO ~!R . HISCOCX : ~~. SP£A.~R (Si~s ) : Do yo u hav e a new question? ~ - SPE. 'UCER: ~"l. HISCCC: <: Tap e "o . 1<:47 A?S - 2 Un suppla~entaire, Monsieur le President. Or der, ~ lease : I indicate<! a final. supplementw.ry . The hon. member !or Ea gle Rive r. ;>. new questl.On. Je veux poser une qu es ~ion au ministre d 'Zduca ti<:m (~ Is . Verge) .

Je pe:~se ici dans la E'rovi.'lce c!e Terre Ne uve et Labrador, nous avo ns un bon prog raome pour tous de langue !rancaise, c'esc vrai, d'accorc! le gouver:~e:nent ::eeera l il a :10\!S donne d'a..-gent, et mai:lte:l .ant, mainten ant le progra:mme commen ce , e"!: maintenant bea llcoup d'etudiants, beaucoup de professors a~~s les eccl es se concaire s dans la Province de Terre ~euv e et ~aorador , ?Qur~oi pas ave c ~e l'arge:~t du gouver:~~,c federal? ~1R . STAGG: lo!..."l . SPE:.~ x:=:.."l: the meinbe r for S tephelwi. lle. :-!R. STAGG : SO:-«' HCN . ~'-!SERS: !-'.R . S?~R : ~!R . STAGG : A ?Oint of order.

Order, please: ;>.point o: ;:>rder. 'O'he hon. The hon . member is engag L,g in deba te. Sit down: Sit down! Ord=, p lea .se: I am cne of the sa,tlemen on this s1.de who can ~nderstand •Jh at he ~s say~ng . He is o~vicusly ~co debate, he ~s not askir.g a ~uesc ~o n. :~R. THOMS : ~!R. S?~)(ZR : :-IR. Ji'.HESO:oi : !'!R . S?EA: <=:R: Leace: of ~~e Opposition . l-1?. . JA.'C=:SON: Sit down~ Order . ?lease: To t.':e ?Oint: of orcer, Mr. Spea:>cer. To ':..'le ?Oi~t: of order . The ho n. the ~onsieur le ?resiee~c. je ?eOSe qu'il y e~ ~:~s :~por~anc a compre~~e ~e :ec~e =~acbr~ est bilin~e .

There:ore, it is 9e~=ec~ly ~~ orde r :or ~he hon . memhe~ to ask his q~es~~~n i~ ~anada'5 37 86

May 12, 1980 , Tape 1448, Page 1 -- apb MR. JAMIESON: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER(Si.mms): second official language. Hear, hear! Order, please! To the point of order. I believe the hon. minister is ready to respond, if the hon. member is finished asking his question. MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: to ask his question. MR. HISCOCK: (inaudible) I direct the hon. member Okay. Peut-~tre le raiser. le depute de Stephenville (Mr. Stagg} n'a pas compris rna question parce que j'etais tres fache avec la reponse au gouvernement. MR. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER: MR . !iiSCOCK : Mais oui, mais oui. Order, please! Pourquoi?

Ma question c'est simplement, pourquoi maintenant nous avons un bon programme de fran1ais a Terre Neuve et Labrador, pourquoi tout couper maintenant? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MS VER~E: MI. Speaker, I am unable to understand or respond in French , which I think is an indication - MR. THOMS: The reason why we {inaudible) MR . SPEAKER: O~der, please! MS VERGE: - how the ?rench in s~uct ion in ou r sc hools has impro ved since the time 1.,hen I went to high school. I took French as it t-'as then taught but . un~ortun a tely , I did not learn how to speak French or nder3tand spo ken French .

But I could refer this to ~y colleac;ue the hon . che Minister of .Justice . :1R. SPE?.1<3~: T~e hon . ~he ~inister o= Ju stice. 378

May 12, 1980, Tape 1448, Page 3 -- apb · ~1R. WARREN : Bay. I th~~ they have been left vacant now for two or three years, have not been used . Does the Minister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing , in conj4nction with the Minister of Education, have any intention of moving some of those units along the Labrador coast to accommodate teachers for the coming year, in education? 378~

May 12, 1980 Tape No. 1448 APB - 2 MR. OTTENHE IMER: Je ne suis pas tout ~ fait s~r ce qu'est cette politique rnaintenant, rnais anparavant et je crois que c'est pareil rnaintenant chaque effort, chaque effort est fait a Terre-Neuve pour accornrnoder nos concitoyens francophones. Par exernple, au Labrador depuis dix-sept, dix-huit ans il y a une lycee, n'est-ce pas, une ~cole secondaire ou toute l'instruction est en francais. Et ca \ existe depuis dix-sept, dix-huit ans. Aussi, a Port au Port il y a une premiere, deuxierne, troisierne annee pour les eleves qui veulent etre instruits en francais.

Alors, ) je 5=rois que si 1' on regarde le pourcentage de francophones a Terre Neuve vis a vis toute le population nos efforts sont vrairnent tres, tres bons. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Excusez-moi. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: While I realize Beauchesne's precedent allows questions to be asked or answered in both languages, our own House rules are sort of silent on it with the exception of petitions, where it says, "Petitions must be written in English and accompanied by a translation". Maybe I could make the same suggestion - for L~e benefit of the Speaker, at least.

The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. I understand - !".R. HISCOCK: In eskimo, in Inuit. My second language is Inuit. MR. WARREN: Probably I could yield to the Premier, if he would like to speak. MR. SPEAI<ER: Order, please! MR. W.il.RREN: I should li~e to ask a question pertaining to a number of units, of mobile trailers that were left vacant in Happy Valley - Goose 37Bi

:·!a:Y 12,BSO ~!R. SP::AKZR (Si:rons} ' and liousing. Tape Nv. 1449 !'...'i-1 The hon. !'!i .niscer of !'!unicipal Affairs ~!R. WINDSOR: ~. Speaker, e•1er since these units became vacanc and available to the Rousing Corpora cion , we have looked ac va rious options of utilizing them. putting ~~em to good use.

A number of chem have Oeen t!\OVed to various pares o: :..abrader, and i:tdeed che Island of ~lewfou:tdlan<i . '!'his is one option that: ·,;e will be exploring a.-.d my colleagues and I are looking at it now co see what needs to be done for -;he teachers in Lab,rador, and if this is a viable solution then indeed we will explore it. !1..~.W"'~ll: A suppl~~ entary . :·1.!1.. SPU>...l<Z.!l.: rl supplementary . The hon. me~~er for Torngat lo\ounta!.ns. ~R. ·,rAR.~: ~,r.

Spea.'<.er, I underst.and that ~ere has been a ~rief ?::esented to the :-!iniscer oi Education ('ls V\!rge) ana : believe to t~e :-.!.niscer of ~=ic i:-al .v:airs a.'!C !!Ousing ~lr.

Wi:tcisor ) since !-la.rc?t 25th . : a.m just ·.-ondering -..hac has ::a:-.e:l place :or the last t!\Onth a:td a half pertaining c.o che school boards and the departments concerned in ;ar-~cular to those uni-;s or to o~~e r accomodatlons,i= chare are a..::y oche r .sccomoCat!.or.s av.a.i!-a,!)le? !'.a:.re bo~, mi:'lisc .ers be~:\ in ::ont.!Ct :,n.c?\ the school boards ::once~nec ~nd have ::hey :een noti::.ea chat your deparc .:nents are looking 1.n::o c~e possibility of ha•11.ng those •mit:s t:r.!ns?ort:e c to the coast? 1-IR .

S?:::AKZR: The hon.~ir.ister. ~!.?.. :;rrNDSC;<: ~ ~aiC ~n ar.sw~~ -:o e~e cai:- . queS1C.i.o:1, ~. Speaker, ella-: we are looi<inq at a :1c.mj:;er of al.:e::la::i'les,::h.is !:::e.L~<; one of them . We ?la•;e made no ci.e::J.sion ::o this point i:t time as to which course of act: ion ·,o~e •.ti.:.l take . '!'he issue is t:.'lder •;e:y active ::onside .:-a-:ion, a~d :y ~olleagues and I , in ~ace# ~e at che mo~ene e~qageC ~~ :isc~ss~cns on 1: and some Cec~sion hope:ully w21: Ce :orthco~ag i~ ~e very ~ear ;'u::ure. I do r:o::. k."!ow :.; any of :ny .colleagues . .,ant ::o expa:lci. r:>n cr..a t one. 3790

May 12,1980 Tape No. 1449 AH-2 HR. SPEAJ<ER tSim:ns): A final supplementary. The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WA..'lREN: My final supplementary would be probably to the Minister of Education (Ms Verge). Taking everything into consideration, and if as the news reports say that there is a possibility that Cartwright may be without six teachers for the beginning of the new school year, 1980, does the minister have any plans to alleviate this teacher shortage because of lack of housing in cartwright? MR. SPEAXER: The hon. the Minister of Education. :15 VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, as the hon. member well knows I have received a brief, a written submission from the Labrador East Integrated School Board dealing with this question of the problem of suitable housing for the teachers in Cartwright as well as a number of other communities served by that school board. That brief is now being discussed among the officials of my department and I will be meeting with my colleagues, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. windsor) and the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) on it.

It involves a number of complex issues dealing with the respective responsibilities of the local School Soard, the Education Department, the Housing Department, the mandate of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation and all of these will be looked at in trying to come to grips wi tl1. the ?robler.t of ensuri:1g that there a.re qualified teachers in cartwright for next Se?tember 1-',R. S?E;>S.EP.: The han. member for Bonavista tlorth. t1R. STIRLING: Thank you, :-tr. Speaker. A foreign language to most fisheremen . I have a question tc the ~·linister of Fisheries (~~. Morgan).

When he nade his announcement about the further revision of the Fisheries Loan Beard 1he indicated that there would be a subsidized interest rate. 3-, r, I ::1

May 12, 1980 Tape No. 1450 SD - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: Could the minister tell us when the new 8 per cent interest rate took effect? When did start paying the 8 per cent interest rate? fishermen have to MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. J. MORGAN: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. ~I. Speaker, the new interest rate of 8 per cent,of course, was a budgetary measure taken by this administration and it was announced in the budget and I was of the opinion the day it was announced it became effective. MR. L. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for Mr.

Speaker, is it true that fishermen who were looking for additional money were told that their whole loan, the loan that they had before and the new loan, would be at the higher interest rate MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. MORGAN: MR. L. STIY.UING: MR. SPEAKER: for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: the 8 per cent interest rate? The hen. the Minister of Fisheries. No, Mr. Speaker. Final ~upplementary, Mr. Speaker. Final supplementary, the hon. member Mr.

Speaker, the answer I would like to know f:rorn the Minister of Fisheries is·. by what authority he can charge the 8 per cent interest rate oecause that authority has not been granted by this Hous~. It may be in keeping with the same kind of question that my colleague from LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary) asked. If it is true that it is now being charged, it is being c~arged without the authority of the House. MR. s. NEARY: He does not know. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. J. MORGk~: Mr.

Speaker, the regulations governing the Loan Board as I announced last Friday, did not also get the approval of the House. They were done by the provincial Cabinet. we are en this side of the Assembly to make decisions, we make them accordingly; therefore, the 8 per cent was the same type of decision. ~~- L. ~~OMS: Mr. Speaker. 379?

May 12, 1980 MF.. SPEAKER: (Simm!

l) MR. L. THO!oi.S: MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: HR. L. TEOMS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. L • THOMS : Tape No. 1450 SD - 2 The hon. member for Grand Bank. supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I indicated a final supplementary. Well, it is a new question, Mr. Speaker. New question. Merci. Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan). In his Ministerial statement on Friday, hE indicated that the loans would be made directly to the fishermen or to groups of fishermen,but there would be no loans made to companies.

I am wondering if this means that a group of fishermen could not incorporate­ and I am thinking about all of the adVantages of incorporation to a group of people who wanted to become incorporated- does this mean that bo~o or three or four or whatever fishermen could not become a legal entity and then obtain loans under the Fisheries Lo~~ Board? fd.R. Sl!EAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. J. MORGAN : Mr.

Speaker, I thank the hon. gentlem~~ for asking that question because it needed to be clarified because it did say in the new regulations that the loans would be made available to fishermen and to groups of fishermen.not to companies. 3ut what we are refer=ing to, of cours~. is thct loans will not be made to c~mpanies like p~cessing companies involved in the fishing processing sec~or , b•lt the aspect now beir.g referred to by fishermen getting together and forming companies or associations, 379::\

)1ay 12, 1980 Tape No. 1451 NM - 1 MR. MORGAN: in fact, and becoming a legal corporation, in many cases they do that, that this regulation is not ruling out that kind of a set up. So we will be making loans to fishermen or groups of fishermen, whether it is partne~ships or in forming their own companies. When we say companies in this case under the regulation 1we are talking about companies other than people involved in the harvesting sector; for example,companies involved in processing. MR .

S?EA.'<ER (Simms): Order, please~ The time for Oral Questions has expired . l'.NSWERS TO nUESTIONS FOR W'"rliCH NOTICE Hl'.S BEEN GIVEN : MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, some time last week the han. member for LaPoile (~rr. Neary) asked me the status with respect to an amount of approximately $2.7 ~illion owed originally Labrador Linerboard and now, since their divestiture, the Province, by a German company, Schurfeld and Company, and also asked me if I would table a copy of the contract between Labrador Linerboard and that Ge~an company which I will do.

Yes,~~ere is an amount of $2.7 million owned,in our opinion 1 by that Ga~an company, previously to Labrador linerboard, now to the Province. There have been negotiations with respect ~o ~~at matter, so far without success. The governme~t intends a further - one further effort at negotiation. And if ~~at does not resolve the question ~~en we shall - there are two coures open, !n the contract there is an arbitration clause- clause 11, provides fer arbitration- so if the negotiations do not meet- MR. NEARY: Is there a dispute? MR. OTTENHEI~.ER: There is a dispute, yes. Yes. There is a dispute.

They claim they do not owe $2.7 million. They are not necessarily claiming they do not owe anything, ~~ere could well be a dispute on the amount. So if through negotiation it is not solved,then ~~e arbitration clause of the contract would become operative and of course there is the final recourse and ~hat would be in the courts. But we are going to try one final effort at ~egotiation. I agYee it is a lot of 3784

)tay 12, 198 0 Tape !>lo . l4Sl N}l - 2 ~lR. c~~L'tE:l.: ~oney a~a certainly we shall co everything possi~le to recoupe rate it . :·-~. t~..R'! : ~<hy die you wah so long? ~IR . OTTENH~ : :1.~ . )lEAR! ; clUng ahouc ic. ~. S!? S.".:<Z R(Simmsl : ~:?. . W. ROl-lE : ~1.~. SPEAliR..:_ M?.. W . :<.Ot-IE : :-B. 5?:S.."..:<2?.: :-!R . W . RQt•;z;: I! you had known abou c chac since '74, I will table a copy of the concracc . Only for me,now,you would noc !~,ow a Any more answers? ?resen::i:'\<; ?eutio:ts . Orders of the ~ay . ~tr. Speaker, petitions .

Order, ;: l.ease ~ Your ~onour called petitions . : am SO :'"Y· The r.on . me~er for ~«~ll1n;a~. ~tr . Spea~er, : beg leave co ;>reser.c_ a pe:ic.:.on ·Nh!c~ ! :,av e =ecei·leC. f~.om some si.. xty stccen ts oE ~~e ~ew NOrld :sland East Elemen::a--y School, ::he scudents fNho o.~ere 1._n the <;aile~ on F~iCa _y morn.!.ng, Your ncnour may recall . ! ~ould ~o~ pr~se~c a pe~:~o~ ~e~ ss ! ~oclC have l~~ed, but ~e a~~~eC , o: cou rse , ~o forgo Fe~i::icn pe:.-io<! so '<~e coulc ;;Jet !.nco the flat;: de!late. ~r .

Spe~~~, ch!s ~e~~~~on ~~ c~ che ;uC:ec;,as : r.ave ~:eaC'l ~~Ci~a~eC oo ~~e ~~~sc~~, ~s on ~~e s~jecc 'le=y ~~dly raised ~f my hor. . fr1end a~d colleague, ~~e memoer ;or ?or~ au ?or~ (Mr . ~cede= l cistrict. !~ 3791

May 12, 1980, Tape 1452, Page 1 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE : concerns the diverting of federal funds which apparently - there seems to be a great deal of confusion on the issue - were earmarked for the teaching of French, bilingual education in the Province, and equipment facilities, trips back and forth between here and St. Pierre and Miquelon and so on. Mr.

Speaker, the petition itself, which, as I say, comes from the elementary students and their teachers at the ~ew World Island East Elementary School, grades V and VI, sixty of them, is addressed to the hon. members of the House and says as follows: "We want to tell you that we do not agree with what you are planning to do" - this is obviously meant for the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) - "with the money the federal government sent you. We think the money should still be used for education in French.

We know people that have worked in other places in Canada like Labrador and Alberta and so" - they mention the camaraderie and so on back and forth throughout Canada and they say, "we also like learing about other people in our country, how they live, how they speak. Some ways to do this are to meet French people, to see ~ilms in French, to read new books. We hear that all these things are going to be cut down if we do not use the federal money for French and we do not want this to happen. We enjoy learning the French language and about French people.

Please help us to continue doing this." This is signed by sixty students from that school and I believe copies have already been forwarded to the Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, I would like to support completely and utterly the prayer of this petition, the substance of the petition. It is buttressed cy a telegram from the - a copy of a telegr~~ really, the 379R

May 12, 1980, Tape 1452, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: minister got the original - staff of the New World Island East Elementary School in which they say, "We feel that removing formula grants from specific areas of education, that is French, and channelling them into general revenue can only be the first step in regression" - and presumably in education. "It seems logical that your next step can only be to reverse the direction of the arrow on our new provincial flag.

Thoughtfully, the staff of the New i'Torld Island East Elementary School, Baxter Woodford, Principal." support the petition. what I a~ hearing if, Sir, I would like to I can scarcely credit, in fact, in fact, what I have heard is the actual situation, that the provincial goverr~ent would use funds earmarked by the federal government for specific areas of French training in the Province. The minister mentioned the gaps in her own education,and she is a very well educated person, the gaps in her own education because of the lack of this kind of training earlier.

And here we have a group of students in grades V and VI who ,of their own volition - what would they be? Ten or eleven years of age - have already been exposed to French irr~ersion, French training, speaking and travel back and forth in order to try to learn the French language, the French culture in our country. Mr.

Speaker, I think it would be a very retrograde step indeed if this Province were to take that money from specific areas of French education and to put it into the general revenue of the Province and perhaps we will find that the whole French programme, which I understand has been admirable in the Province over the last two or three years, would suffer very greatly as a result. Mr. Speaker, with great pleasure I ask that this petition be !aid on the table 3797

?-1ay 12, 1980, Tape 1452, ?age 3 -- apb NR. W.N.ROWE : of t~e House and referred to the depar~ent to which it relates, the Department of Edcuation . SOME HON . MEMBERS : ~ffi . SPEAKER(Sinms }: Education. Hear, hear ! The hon. the Minister of ~~ . VERGE : Mr. Speaker, just a brie: response . I will be glad to accept the pecicion :rom t~e students . I already received t3e teleg ra ~ from the principal and am responding to that . I will respond direc~ly to the students . ~~d t~e comments which I made a little earlier in response to t~e questions :rom the hon . member !or Port au Port (Mr .

Hodder), I think are relevant :or this purpose as ~ell and I will not repeat them now . ~~. S?E.~~P.: The hon . ~he ~ember :or ?ort au ?ort . MR . HODDER: ~r. Speaker, I ~ish to support t:he petition which ~"as presen';ed by my !riend a:1d collea;ue :rom Twillinc;ate . ~tr. S?eaker, I represenc a district which, I suppose, is the only district - perhaps t."le ~e.rnber fo:- Stephenville (~tr . Stagg) ha3 some claim - 1"here Frenc.i-t Newfoundlancers resice, •.Nhere French is spoken L, the 3omes . I~ many of the comrnuni~ies throughout the dis~ricc and t:,en chroug:tout the Bay St .

George region, you get a number of fa~ilies who speak Frenc:t in t~eir homes . I ~ave bee~, since I have been the m~~ber :or that particular district, trying to ?reser ve and do ever yt~i ng t~ac l possib~y can to encourage ~e ~epar~~e~t oE Education 37 9R

~!a. ·: 12 . 19 lHl '!'age No . 1453 Dr1 - 1 :1:t . J . EODD E:t: ··--·- ----- to t~: ane ~reserv~ t h e :rgnc h le~auace i~ Newfouneland. ~he people of ?ort a u ?o rt , the p eople of Ca~e of st. Georqe, the peo p le of Mainlane. the ,?eople of Bla·ck Duck B:-ook, the ;>eoole of these French speaking commu~ities are in ~o way. I suppose, likened to t~e 2rench of Qu ebec in t~at Eor many years the v were in some •,.;ays as!lan' .ed o .E their lanouac;e because t!ley felt they were dif :erenc. And in the last ten y ears , I su~oose, ~r.

Speaker . the ? ~ople o~ the region have ~eveloped a p r ide !~ th~ir 1 a ncua qe and ~e and th e Frenc h q ~oup i~ t ~e a~~a La Terra · ' ~u veans Fran~ais haYe been c:-yinc to Co eve~ y - chi~g in cheir ~ower co p =~ serve ehis la~quaae. ":"?le c r.! ? t:ti n c t:'\ac !":as been fort -hcominc; , a:'\r.i n-o: t.br o\lcl'l tl:e e:forcs of this aQve rnme~c ~it h er , ~ ~- Speake:- , ~as b e e~ a Fr~nc h immer-sion .;:>u::se a: Ca.?e s~. Geor ge w!'lic~ is ?rcq :- e ssi::. c c~rouch ~~a s chool. 9~t, ~ r.

Soeaker . we have t~ e sitea-: i on on : he ~ o=~her~ pa::t o.: t!"le ?o:-t au ?o:--t peni:1 sula •t~;,~re ~ !"';e E'~enc h a= := hused c;ome te-n miles, cwel•te ti'.ile s .:._~c.o a ?reciom~nan ~l y ~ngl ish 3peakL,q communi~y with EngliSh s~ea~inq ~eac::~ ::-s .a:""-=, :·tr. Speake :-, r.~e~.r language ar.C_ ~eir c~lt·;- ; .ar~ :: ~: ··.: ": a:ltl'! bei ~ q e ~ ~ceo . :-:ow, :Ot r. Speak '!=, t~a:.

S l ~O . ~O~ - ~any of &he s~uden:s ~ro ~ =~e a :ea wh~c h : =e~~ es~~~ ~a ve ~ad :he op?ortun!ties co co to 3t. ?ie:::-e, :o ao :c Qu ebec , a~d t~e~ have taken 3~vantaqe of t~os~ bursar1es a~d ~~3 ~e w soap~rs and th~ mul ti-~e~ia that h as b~e~ s e nt to ~ ~ e n . ~ow, '1r. so~~t; er, :::t !.s . w?~'l :.!\~ ~ the ~i nis~~t wa~ts ~ ~ believe it o r ~ot . is a ~low a~ th9 F ~~~c ~ cul:~ r ~ in ~few ~o undl ace. ?.._n c ! ·t'loul c! sa?, ·: .:- .

S:> eak~= , :: o:: ~ocr ~~a =s i~ a ~ow ! s~ oc~ 1~ ~hi3 Hous~ an~ was to: 6 ~V t~ i~k. ~~=~e dif!e=e ~ : ~!nisce:s c! ~r3~S~or=a~~ on &~~ C o mmcn! ca~ions ~~a~ :he c~o ,l ~ in ~ ~a ~ a=ea woale ~a~ ~!l! ~~~~ ! 379!)

:1ay 12, 19e~ Ta::>e ~o . l4S:l :n: - 2 '1R. J. HOD!)E=>: ~oad sicns =~t !~r so~~ reas o~ or other. ~ : . Speaker, that has never hap?ened . -'.nc this covern ~ ent has consistently over the past ten years icr.ore c :he Prench spcakin9 New!ounclanders. Anc I !e el, ~r. speaker. :hat this move by the Depart~ent of Educa~ion to ta k~ :he $300 ,000 and to shove it into general revenue, and what happens then, Xr. Speaker, is that once ic is put into ~ene ral r~venue then you have to take your chances with these proaram mes. So, Hr.

Speaker, I see that ny ~i me has run ou:,~ut I feel that th is is a ~ost callous develpo~=~t ar.d I feel t~ae t~e minis te= muse and should s~e ~o l~ oe :~ comni::ee last year t~at s~e ~o~!C Co eve~y- :hi ng in her power to preserve the French !an~uace ~n the ?o::~ au ?t"'r - area, . .,hich !.S ::te only area . .,here ·.te ba.ve ?rer:ch ~lew~ou~d la~eers vho ~ave ~e~n the~~ ~e ~o~e ~os~ o f our :o::e:Oat. he ::s ca:ne to this area, .l.t "'as one o: :he !i:.'s: se:tlec areas. i: ._.as :he ::-ench Shore o: ~e .. :o ..::lc la:-d. A:'1C! ·,;oclC. ask , ~·~r.

Soeake!:'~ t~e :ni~J.s ": e ~ to -=e-consl. de=, b~c nc= onl y eo re-c~~=~ ~ ~~ :h!s ~ov~ of s~nv!~~ ~ co~?lg :-t:.::lcrec r.;-.ousa:\~ dollars in the ge:1e!:al reve::tue, buc I ·..rould il~so as~ her co re-c~na1dc~ a~d to case h~~ rni ~ ~ a~d s~~~~ to :o occ ~~ri visi~ :~~ ~~~ools !n chis a=~a a~d s~e ~:"le co~Cicic :.:: unde : ·t~~hich French s~~C:ents ~ave :o co~~ ~nto ~~cl1s~ sc~~ols ~a~~icula=ly 1n ~h~ to~=des ~=~a ~-~ e~ c :~o ~:e~e~ :o~~~~i:~~s are se=v~~ ~'l a~ ~~clis~ sch col w~~~ t~aehe:s w~o rlo noe have che ~x~e=~~s~ to ~ea~ ~ ~~e~ :~e r=e~ch :~at t~e 'l s~oule lea~~. c~ come ou~ a -~ ~ave a loo~ a: !c a~C ~o :~: ar.C Co so~e:~i~~ !o= ~~~se ?eoQle so :~ey :a~ ~a1ntai~ c~e!r cul~u ~ ~ a~e :~2~= :te=.:.. ~ ace. :: ?:..:_ _§2 .. ~.!:\~ ~-JH.=:.:?.!J A ~: :~~:~er ~eci:~c~~? 3 B fHl

·~a: 12. 198~ ~_!~ . S?!:i.!<!:~ {Si:r: ::~s I Carbonea:-. ~~~. R . :·!OO~ES: '!'aoe ~o. 1453 !)!).' - 3 The hon. che ~eooe:- !o:- On a point of p:ivileqe, Mr . Soeaker , As is the custom of this r.ouse be=o:e the ~:ders o! che _ay go ahead,I ~oulc li~e to bring to the r-ouse's acte~:ion ~y very serious Cisgr~nclece~~ ~i t~ ce~tain ~ords act:~~uted to ~e in the E veni~q ~elecra~. t ~e ~ee~e~e edition .in whic~ it was alleged that myself and anocher of cy colleacues ~e ~e sc:eaming out certain re ~a:ks ~n relat!on to a speech t~a~ ! ~a~e o~ the !lao ce:ace o~ :~:Cat ~cr~:r.a.

S~e~ke x , when one screams i~ ~s eithe= a s~bcenscious emotional r9acti on,anc if not subconscious ~ hen it is celib ­ erace. And in thi s case I recall that •,rhen ! ·.~as raisir.c m·; vo1ce !.:"\ t~is Ci:ec:.:.on : si:nt.:lcaneously :-e ~ac!'u~C to ~:.cY. ~9 a ~ieee c: o a ~e~ a~: we~~ Cl cs~~ :o :~e ~icro ~~ o~9. 3c: i:l a:"ty ev~n~, •tr.

S;>ea=<~ :-, ~::~ tndl.scrul.:-:a~e ~se of term1nology on ~ehalf of the oress such as this is ~ot cnly uncallec :o: b~: lt is ,!~ ~y o~1nion .~at h~ r oet :; ane ir:-es?o::s:.5le. !~ s: · ~:- ... :: r.?t e::l :· t.~e ~ -: .c- .. :)E ::.::· re=:a:-!:s ~ct i: sl~ r: erl :he ~~ ~ : r n ~ = ~e ~~ol~ ~l ~ c de~ate !o= :ri::ai· ':lor:ti::c . nnC : ~elie 'le t~ a e t~e re ? o=:~~ ~o~ :~ ~ 38 01

May 12, 1980 Tape 1454 MB - 1 MR. R. MOORES: Evening Telegram, in this case Mr. Wakeham, if he is covering the House proceedings and if he is not either half asleep or partially inebriated or wholly disinterested, then he should ask his superiors to place somebody else to cover the proceedings of the House and give us all a fair break, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much. SOME RON. ME.'o{BERS: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) member for LaPoile. Jo!R. S • NEARY : Hear, hear! To the _point of privilege, the hon. Mr.

Speaker, as Your Honour knows I have been concerned about this matter for some time of reporters,who are supposed to be the eyes and ears of this House for the people of ~~is Province, in their reporting of the sessions of the House to interject little editorial comments in their news reporting, sarcasm most of the tL~e. Now, Your Honour, it is about time that we had some kind of a ruling on whe~~er or not this is parliamentary.

These people are in the press gallery because Your Honour and ~~e House have allowed them to go ~~ere, and if they do not report accurately -if they are writing editorial columns, if they are writing columns that is a different matter. If they are like Wick Collins.or Ron Pumphrey 1 writing a column,that is a different matter- but when ~~ey are reporting from L~e House they should report accurately and not put sarcastic remarks - !'.R. F. STAGG: They do a good job of reporting. MR. NEAP.Y: They do a good job, Well, ~~e Evenir.c Telegram is notorious, Mr.

Speaker, notorious for sliding in little bits of sarcasm and editorial comment in their news reporting which,in my opinion, is an abuse of the privilege of ~~is House. And I believe, Mr. Speaker, they are not writing editiorials, they are not columnists, they are news reporters and the people out there, people out across Newfound­ land and Labrador have to read this as if it was gospel, as if it was an actual fact, as if it actually happened in the House. 3802

May 12, 1980 Tape 1454 MB - 2 !'..R. F. WHITE: That is why we should have the TVs here. MR. S. :<."'EARY: Well, maybe that is one reason we should have television in the House and ~~e microphones in here. But I believe, Mr. Speaker, that we should have some kind of a ruling as to whether or not this is an abuse of a parliamentary right that we give the press for sitting up and t~~ing notes, nobody else is allowed to take notes except the press,~,d if they are taking notes they should re?Qrt the House accurately. SOME HON. MEMBEPS : I'.R. SPEAKER: President of the Council. MR. W. MARS?.ALL: Here, here.

To a point of privilege, the Han. the Mr. Speaker, the han. member for Carbonear's (Mr. R. Moores) point of privilege was a point of privilege not ingrained in the rules of the House but one which is customary to be raised,and while I may disagree, and I do disagree with the content of it, certainly he was entitled to bring it up in accordance with the custom. But the han. member for LaPoile is grossly out of order by getting up and being allowed to make a spee~~ in the House under the guise of a point of privilege.

He had no point of privilege, he had no business being or. his feet at the particular ti~e .'.ll I would say to the han. member, who is advocating ::ensorship of the press and restrictions of freedoms,that those days past in 1971 when he and his colleagues passed out of gover~~ent. SOME HON . MEMBEF.S : Hear, hear. M..'<. SPE.l\KER: ~ith respect to the point of privilege, I wou·ld rule that there is no prima facie case in ~~is particular matter. The han. member for Carbonear has taken the opportunity to clarify remarks that were attributed to him.

In re~pect to the o~~er matter, which I ~~ink is a sort of a different matter but perhaps somewhat connected, the han. member for LaPoile knows that ! am doing some private research on that particular matter and I will discuss that .,.,i th him outside the House sometime. 3803

)'lay 12' 1980 Tape 1.::..; MB- 3 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHAU. Motion 4 - Bill No. 45. On motion, the hon. the Minister of H,ealth to introduce a bill, "An ,Act To Amend The Human Tissue Act, 1971", carried. (Bil~ No. 45) On motion, Bill No. 45 read a first time,ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 5 - Bill No. 46 ,. On motion, the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Workers' Compensation Act". (Bill No. 46) on motiop., Bill No. 46 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR.

SPEAKER: Order 40, Second Rea ,ding of a Bill entitled "An Act To Adopt A Flag For the Province", The llon. the member for St. Barbe. 380

May 12, 1980 Tape No. 1455 EL - 1 MR. T. BENNETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I hope you ladies and gentlemen do not expect me to say too many words in French, although my greatgrandfather never did learn to speak English. I am having a pretty rough time learning to speak English myself. I am getting th~re.

First of all, I most certainly would like to congratulate those gentlemen who put so much effort, energy and time - the committee, in other words, the committee on the flag or the creation or the design - I would like to congratulate them on their efforts and I th~nk they have been congratulated by other speakers before me. I would like, ~r.

Speaker, to begin by saying we shall rant and we will roar like true ~ewfoundlanders,and truer words were never spoken than we shall rant and roar like true Newfoundlanders when it comes to this flag debate, because I have heard more ranting and roaring around the Province about this particular issue than enything else in my short te~ of office as member for a district. I do not know, Mr. Speaker, if it would be in order to congratulate th~ Premier.

He is a brave man, it seems, to risk~ to go out on a limb -his political career I do not know if I should congratulate him on what ~~ght very well'be political suicide. I do not know if we do congratulate people for commiting suicide or not. 3ut it seems to me that this is such a controversial issue around the Province that I think probably the Premier of the Province should indeed take anotheE look and delay his final decision to accept the design that has been put forward to the House of Assembly. Undoubtabl~ che artist was a good one; undoubtably. He has justifiably generated a lot of praise for his abilities.

A few days ago, back in my district, I was overhearing a couple of ladies debating about t..l1e flag and one lady said, ' Ycu know, all that cost fer a flag.' 1\nd they said to me, Do you know how much it cost the Province? Do you think that money could have been more 3805

May 12, l980 Tape No. 1455 EL - 2 MR. T. BENNETT: wisely spent?' I said I really do not know how many dollars,&nd I did not want to get into an argu­ ment over dollars. And one of them said, ' How much did the artist get?' And the other one said, ' I do not know what he got, but he should have got ten years.' So that was the opinions of these ladies. They were not very happy with the design. Every, bar none, every person I speak with,inside the House of Assembly and outside, are in agreement that we have grown up, we have reached an age of maturity and indeed we should have a Provincial flag.

I can find, I think probably nobody in my district who will support the design th&t was put forward to the House of Assembly. Mr. Speaker, I am only here in the House of Assembly as a member because the people in the district saw fit to elect me to ~~e House of Assembly to be their spokesman, to be their representative, to express their views. And the views of the people in my district, their views are, Sir, that the~ do not want that particular design.

I know that many of them when asked what design they would like to see, they do not always come forward,and I must agree that they have had an opportunity, like I did myself, I had an opportunity to come and look at the designs put forward before they came to the House of Asse~bly. And many people had the same o~portunity and they did not,So if the Premier and the present government see fit to ram this down the throats of the electorate, so be it. We are stuck - we are stuck with it. I hope the Premier does not take that approach because I feel it will hurt him terribly.

I do not think it will hurt me politically. I am not able to support it. I have made my views known,and my views and my opinion have been formulated by the people from the district I represent. They have been very adamant in their objection. The people around this Province, Mr. Speaker, are a bra~e people. They are a brave people, they are rough, they are rough and ready. They are 3806

~lay 12 , 1980 Tape No. 14.55 EL- 3 MR. T. BENNETT: humble. They are indepeneent but they are very very loyal, very loyal people. And when a cause presents itself,the people of this Province rally,and,&s we read in the history books, and as I remember and a lot of hen. g@ntlemen here in this House , and possibly 3807

:•lay 12,1980 Tape No. 1456 AH-1 ~!R.

BENNETT: one hon.lady in this Houst i doubt if t~= ~inister of Education (Ms Verge) can remember-some of the rallying around to support the cause of freedom that we were faced with, 1939 especially is the time that I remember, and I have read extensively back in the 1914-1918 era, great World war l,and that is a time when my own father spent eight years at sea and that is a time when I had four uncles on the front line. ~our of my uncles were on the front line, I suspect as foot soldiers. one of them was buried at Gallipoli as a result,and he was buried for a cause, he gave his life.

When the war was over,the three remaining soldiers who survived were broken, physically and mentally. One of ~hem went to Australia where he in turn supported the flag, the Union Jack that he fought for 7 one of them went to Toronto, one of them stayed in England, my mother came to Newfoundland.

I have been steeped in a tradition that has been supported by a Union Jack and by a Legion and by men, veterans who have gone out, gone through the years longer than I can remember, they have gone out to fight to give me the freedom to stand in this House of Assembly and express my views as I see,and the only reason that I am nere,and t~e only reason that we have the Premier here ,is because of the f~eedorn of speech that we have enjoyed. SO!'.E RON. MEl1BERS : Hear, hear~ ~·L~.

BENNETT: I agree it is time that we shucked using or gave up using the Union Jack completely and entirel~[, and c:=-ea ted our own identity. It is long past due, we need it,and the time has come that we should have it. Nobody, but nobody !:hat I have spoken with, especially the veterans 1can see anything to identify with in the new design,to identify with the risks and the heritage, the bravery and tie hlli<~leness that has been expressed. ~e have not seen pickets from our Legionaires.

They have approached in a very h~le ~anner and t~ey have only asked that the Premier should shelve the proposed f:i.ag !:or a short Y:hile, come back in the =all. I am not asking, ?-lr. Speake!:', that ·tie should lay on another c0rrnit:.tee, anothe:!: Chairman or anot!'ler artist. 3808

:-la~- 12,193U Tape :-:c . l-156 AH-:l :·L'L St:llo~!:TT: I think now the cc~~ttee ~s a ~et~er 1cea of Hhat the peogle wan~. I tr~~ the ?rewier has got a ~etter idea o: wr.ac the people war:~ . I think the ;?eO,?le arou:-.d -che Prov~nce have a better idea. All of a sudden they ~e hit ~~ the :ace with chis . They have not seen it .

They have not had time to absorb or co e~~ress ~ O?inion ,anC ! do ~o t f4a~c to sac~ifice the resc of our thousands of years do"'-:1 c:te road that ·..;e i::a•Je to :'ly on our :lagsta::::s something that people ar~ so obJet t~ onable to. : t~nk that ~e have the ogporcunity at t:Us tlme - •..;hile I resgect: che opinions of chose 'kho have design .~ to-tis and helped with it, •NOr!<~ at :~ --· I res;,:ect it . :c is very dl::'ica:t :or ~e t:o seane up and cut down the hon. ;enc:~~ who sit:s :1e:<1: :;o me here.

They !'-.ave people :.o respresenc i:t ~h .e~r distr!c:s ,and l tP~~~ ~~ey have done a commendable job . Undo~btedl y ~he designer of thls :1aq, ~~- Prat~ ,~ut ~orward the best et:ort, the Ces~ ~ha.t. he k.:lerA how ,bu~ I Co c.:--..ir.k,gi·le:t A:\Ot.he~ c~a:tce , he 'otiOUlC Co a ze~:er job ~;a~ A~u:c 0e =~re acce~able 330Q

~lay 12' 1980 Tape No. 1457 NM - 1 YlR. BENNETT: and I do not think it is necessary that we cram this through the House of Assembly in the next twenty­ four hours. I do think that we have time; we have lived with a flag for 400 years and surely goodness we can live with what we have in place, we can live with it for the next six months. We have always heard, Mr. Speaker, the sun never sets on the Union Jack. The sun never sets on the Union Jack.

The great British empire of which we have been a part - okay so a lot of people might feel it is time for us to cut loose from Britian,but it is not so easy to cut loose from the people who gave their lives so we could have ~~e freedom that we have enjoyed flying the Union Jack, or living with the Union Jack. People who have travelled all over the world, Australia, Ne·• Zeala."ld, Africa, all over the world, t.'ley have travelled and they have carr~ed and they have fought for, like Newfoundlanders have done, and continue to do. And I feel, Mr.

Spea~er, that t.~e only ~~ing that people are asking t.~e Premier, and the committee a.'ld the House of Assembly to do is to shelve ramming this through the neuse of Assembly until people have had time to express more of their views and w<til there is ano~'ler design that can be more acceptable, more desirable, more Cistinct, something t~at would embody that part of the Union Jack that r,ye have ::,een so proud of do,-...m tb.rough the years, some­ thing that: has seen literally tho usands of our men ~uried at sea ·.vhile shrouded in t.~e Union Jack over their coffins, hundreds of thousands of men fought and died on the battle fields of Europe ar.d they carried the Union Jack and they carne home to Newfoundland and they lived in peace and quiet because so many of their comrades fought for the cause.

I am certainly not suggesting that we should keep the Union Jack completely and entirely, but I think there is too much onus from our ~egionnaires around the Province, they are too anxious, they desperc.tely want to see that Union Jack somewhere emboC.ied in a flag that would be recognized as a provincial flag. And to me it 3eems, !!r. Spea.i<:e.=, as though they (,.;oulC. :10t c.s.r~ less i= the~- ?Ut a _?olar ~ear, lc bste!:' or s.r.yt hing else, but they do ~"./·ant to have that r~cogni ::iorl. 3 s 1 n

~~~· 12, 1980 Tape No . 1~5.7 :-P.·l - 2 ~!E.. BEm.-::TT : And that recog~ition has ;one all ove:: :::he world, and ':he recognition t.hat ;:hey =ought so b::avely :or . ~~ders~and ~~e people o: Labrador are :1ot very an.:ci.ous that ·,;e should snatch their flag or b-ring theit" flag onto the lsDL~d and use it as our provincial flag . au;:, Mr. Spea~er, Lal:>~aC:or and New!ounClanC is on~ provi:"lce anC. ! ~ ... ~ould be ve-:--.1 ha?PY mysel: to sea one provi,ncial fla<; introduced that: . ..,oulci cove:- both te-r= ito~ies . ~8. N!:.;~:: ~e~r, hear! ~~ht or..

MR. 3ENNET'I': l thi~~ ic is a shame, I thi~~ i~ is a pity, it is coo bad chac ~He have t:o - it. is a.:1oz.her s~.!'oke of separat.ism~ ! ::"eel, i~ t:..us House ot. .:>.ssew.bly thac we have to vote for, ···e have co say yes or (N'e have ~o say .:10 - wall, ! have to say :10 :nyself - a:\d it is un.for~ll!l-ate ~:u: people o[ Qu·ebec a.::e fa.ceC wit.h a "S.!.milar vote , ~o voce yes or ~o vote no. \·Ina~ is ic. c;oi.:"!.g c:> ~e? rxe seem c~ ::e copy.!.:19 o~f them anci to me i~ is a littl: fuz~he= 1:ne ~f sepa~a~ion, end this I =agl s.ac abouc . I t..'"ti:tk there shoulC. be cotrJ)romise . 3 h 11 - '

May 12, 1980 Tape No. 1458 SD - 1 MR. T. BENNETT: There is room for compromise. We need a new flag, we need our own identity. We have given up a lot of our men and our women on the battlefields of Britian, Europe, all over the world, on the oceans of the world. We fought for 1 that Union Jack and we are proud of it and we will do the same thing again.

There has been all kincs of suggestions that we should have polar bears, codfish, Coat of Arms, but the one thing that has been hammered into me in my district, the one and only thing that has come a~ me from my district, is let us make sure there is some recognition for the flag somewhere that we fought for during both World Y1ars. We are not asking very much.

One gentleman here in the lobby Friday,he said, "We are not asking for very much, 2 per cent; let us have 2 per cent of the total in recognition of those who have gone be fore;' That is not too much, 2 per cent, and that gentleman did not care if you put an iceberg on the rest of the flag. I think we should res~ect their views. They respected us, they respected the youth of the Province and of the country and they went out prepared to lay down their lives for a cause to give us the freedom to stand up in this House of Assembly and express our views. They did it while flying the Union Jack, Mr.

Speaker, not Hammer and Sickle or Swastika. come from those countries - M..". STi'.GG: MR. F.&'i'COCK: you can not do. M..". T. BENNETT : l-Ie have had a lot of people that have What are you saying? He is making sense, •..rhich is soJCething - who presently live under dictatorship, they have not got the same freedom that we have. They have come into our country and they have been welcomec into our country and they are very happy to recognize the fact that we have freeeo~. They recognize the freedom that we enjoy and they want to stay and enjoy it with ::ts and they are not qoing back to their 0¥.?!'2.

Iron Curtain c.Juntries or to thei=­ own 2omrnunist countries where they have not got the same freedom that we have. 3 8 1 ?

~lay 12, 198 0 '!'ape No. 1<5 8 SD - 2 MR. T. BENNE'I"I' : I do not want to see this Province cut off from a traditional flag completely and entirely. I would like to see something added to it to identify Newfound:land, to identify the oldest colony of the British Empire. Newfoundland is the oldest,undoubtedly the firs ·t overseas colony to fly the Union Jack. I a1n not ashaJJ~ed of my na!!le, I am glad with the name I have, I am happy with my naJJ~e: Why should we be ashamed or afraid to display the name of oar heritage?

The Union Jack or the flag that a cou.i'ltry carries is. the na;ne, it is an identifying elE!lllent of the country it represents. Ships at sea, airplanes,the sports fields, it is the name, the identification, it is identifying the land to which you belong,and I am not ashamed of the land to which I l::lelong. I am not a~hamed of my name and l am not ashamed to carry my name and I am not ashamed to carry the flag that represents my country; as a matter of fact, I am very proud to ca:!:ry it. I am proud to carry the name, Mr. S·peaker, that I have.

Somebody else gave it to me, just like somebody e~se gave me the Onion Jack and the Maple Leaf. I am proud to carry it and I want to continue to carry a part of that Union Jack. I was not old enough to go over in the 1939 battle 3 ~ l1

.'lay 12, 1930 Tape No.1459 EL - 1 MR. T. BENNETT: =or the country. I just was under the wire, I was just under the wire in age,buta lot of my friends went over there. Some of them came back, a lot of them did not come back and, as I speak to these men aro~•d, a lot of them are reluctant to express views. They are back home. They spend their time in the fishing boats or in woods operations or just working for a living in the Province to support the economy of the country and to feed and educate thei= families. But when they rallied round, Mr.

Speaker, and when they went out prepared to lay down their lives, we all know from coast to coast, we know the flag that they were flying. And it has been four hundred years it has been flying over this island rock and I, muself, I am not very anxious to support any flag for this Province unless it has a little bit of that heritage that has been blended into our lives all down through the years.

We may not appreciate the colonialism ~'der which we livea,a lot of people do not,but I •~uld rather have experienced some of that and the freedom that went with it than have experienced the dictatorship of some of the other countries that were not flying the Union Jack. When the Americans came over here, they flew the Union Jack alongside their Stars and Stripes. As a matter of fact, when they gained their freedom from Britain, they did not take the Onion Jack and trample it in the mud.

They took it and blended it in with the Stars and Stripes, the thirteen stripes and the thirteen stars,but they made it up from the colours that they had been fighting ~ith and fig~ting for and fighting under. And they have become a great nation and I cannot see myself throwing out the Union Jack and making absolutely no represent- ation or identifying of the Union Jack on a flag that would represent this Province. We need a flag, Mr. Speaker, and we need a distinct fl«g. ~:e have the committe in place that can ·'J'O back and have it redesigned that ~~uld be acceptable. It may not be acceptable to ':l ·~ "'l

~ay 12, 198') Tape ~lo. 1459 EL - 2 !'t.'l.. T. S<:!~'"E'!":': eighcy per ce~t o: ocr people ~u~ I aQ sure they co uld have a design that would be acce pted ~y :ifty-one per cent ~o.•hich right: nolo.', thi~ it is opposed by eighty pe r cent . It is re jec ted by eighty per cent. I would like to plead "'ith the ho :1. 9entle:e.'l ·,;ho prese!1t:!7· :ot":%4 the gover~enc, ! lo.'Ould like to plead "'i~ the~ that they should really take this ~re seriously. 1 really ti:ink they should take it mo re seriously bec-.use I feel tha~ they a.re the ones who wil! pay on election day.

I have en joyed my short experience in the Ho~,:se o! Asse:;-.bl:t wit:~ al: of ~e people :;ha t I have becor.>e exc..osec to and after then~ election, ~r. Speaker,a lot of t~ese gentl~~en wi~ l not be here - possibly some o! the ladies - after the ~ext election. ! may not be here ~yself ,but it would be ~ind of nice to see some of the old face s. aut I wou ld bet you dollars to doughnuts, ~r. Speaker, ~~at tP~s will be a big iss~.:e in the next election. It ·.;ill he a big issue.

T~.is wi ll bubble to t:te sur~ace an~ I can."lot ex;>ress stro~gly e:tough >::~e nee~ that t~e Premier shoule shelve it- shelve it !or six ~onths, come back in six :nonths time w i~'l a new design. Do r.ot come !::laclt wit~ this design, ecce back ~ith a new one that will be :nore acceptable. You come ~ck wi~; socct!'lin9 that.

C.efi:·d.ce!y .:.cie:t:J.!:.es :.he t:n.ion Jack a::C C.e!ir.itel y =e!.ace s to some-:.hinq ;..·i~h t~~ P::o·rince a~ci I will accept: it.. l •.d.ll vote :or it. aut at ~~~s ti~e ! a~ no~ able to vote :or this particul~r d csig n.~r.c could not qo oack :o ~ Y d ~s:ri:: ! ·.;auld !:>e ly:-:c!'lec oack. -·· St . Sarbe District i! I s~??Or~ed :ha t. ! would be ina lot o: tr ouble ar.c - know i:. ~r. Speaker, ~e have been a 3 8 1 c;

_c.; ~ !:ai' :2, !9 90 ~ape ~lo. 1460 Dt·~ - l :tP.. T. BEN~IETT : lucky people. We have enjoyed a lot of freedom and we presently enjoy the freedom of being able to debate, express our opinions, our views, our likes and our dislikes. If we do not like our Premier, the people out there decide; if we do not like certain hon. crentlernen, members for districts, the peoole out there decide, a free vote. I am little reluctant to believe that tc-.is is going to be a free vote in the House of Assembly.r hesitate to sugqest that this will be a free vote when it comes to a vote. And this side of the Rouse is outvoted.

Mr. Soeaker. so I· guess there is going to be a lot of wee!'ir.g o:~:.: gnashing of t2eth~probably,on the day that this is passed. Thank you . :-tr. S-oeake=. SOME HON. MEMBE~S: Hear , hear! ~!?.. :". STAG:::: !·!:-. Soeaker. :1R. SPEAKER (Butt) The ho~. cember for Ste?henvil~e. SOME RON. ME~BERS: Hear, hea!:"! :·tR. F. S'!'AG~: ~r. Soeaker, and colleacues en both sides of t~e House,! certainly appreciat~ the thunderous round of a~?lause in anticination of m? subcission i~ ~~is debate. I ~auld firs: like to dir~ct m7sel~ to ~~e co~mectE :r.ade b•t t~ :e me!nher :or E~. Barbe ('~r. ~~~nett).

I w·o u lC l i ~: 2 to ask :,_i~ ~ if ~e 'Nou!.:::i, ,..,·he~ !:ansa!"Ci t~ansc!:"il:es :.. is .:;~e~c:-- .. ~f he ~iq~t read it a~ai~-or read it,bscause h~ ~as ex~~m?cr- aneo~s for large portions o~ ~is sneech a~d I a~ sure t~a~ ~e sai~ some t~inas that when they are reduced to orint th~t ~e will not agree with. ~e was talkinq atout ~;azis~ a~a dictatorships and all so=~s of things that I think when they are written down - ~~.3..:--~ . H~_sco~~: !:r. Spea ker, a ooint o~ cr~er. \!!? .• 3?Efl.?:E?.. : ;-.. :Joint c!: crd.e~. t:-- .~ =:o:-- .. :-::::-:!>~ = :-::r ::5-cl!!: '!1 ~·~-:-. 3S 16

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=-tar '~ .. . BBO :·!~. s~~ -i~l. = Ta::.H! ~:o . 1~~ 0 J~·· - ) !~ c~~s ~a=~~cular case : ~oulC ~~le :here is ~o poi~ : o~ o ~ ~e ~ ~u : :he hon. me~be~ :o = St.. 3a:-be c:·~r . Bennet c) :-ose 0:1 c!'- .2 cccasic .n co cla rify :emar~s that ~ere previ ously sai~ abo~~ hi~. The hon. ~~m~er ~o=- se~~h~~vi:le. ;!;t. F . ST; :GG : I~ ~he ho~. ne~ber does ~o: ~~~: so~e suqgescions in that =egar6 ,wel l, ~hen I will jus: leave ?lin alene . ! wil l r~ad his s~eee~ 1howeve~ . Now, ~f :".

S?eake~, the Eelect Comnit :ee on the Flaa made up o~ seve~ mem~e r s o! ~his Mouse of Asse~oly . seven me~~ers elee:~c ~v probably 15,? 00 or 20,000 ~eoo1e ~:'! e~ti:-~t··- thg:, eo: a cou;;)..!.e o:: tho s.ls~ :;.

C voces eac~ - they a:-e :\e!:"e ~eca•.Js~ -:~e y ~a ,· a Cu~y, ~!;e y ~=-t! h~ ~e be~aus~ i~ is ~~e~: :es?o~si:ilicy to ~~?:-es e ~: : ~a =~~~19 ~ ~ o ~ceed !cr t~e ~. ~~e S2lect Co ~~i~~ =ouce ~$ d~c~ ci ed as a w!s~ a~d ~x ~e~~ :!o ~s ·;a~ c! ~r~v i di~c a ~!a ~ =~~ :~~s ?~ov!~ce. ~nC : ,_fa~:. ~o =e:e: :o 7 hu :- sCa~· , :;ct '- e~~e: Sc~. :ast (ea r w~e~ t~e Pre~i ~ : ;a~e ~oc~ce t~a~ ~e ~-!) ~.:1~ i:ttrc u:i~<C!! a ~o~ion ·11:-.!.ch s~!C}" :e :.t =esol veC c~t a S~lec: ~oom~t=~~ o: ~r~s hon . House o~ all mae~ers =ei~~~~g co ~~e :6opt!.on :>: .a :l a.; :or the: ? ~cv:.~::~ 3::C w 38 1'l

~:ay 12 . 1~80 Tape :><o. 1461 ~::·l - 1 ~lR. STAGq ~ ~ecornrnend a specific cesign the~e£o~e. 3~ IT fUR':' :;;:;!. ESOLV::O t!!a~ ~he Selec:: Comm!etee have ;lowe~ to si.~ at all ti.::les ~hether or :;oc ~he House is in sessio:'l, adjo~.:...--ned or prorogued, and L~ relation :o the matters to ~~em referred the power to send ~or persons, pape~s Gnd records . 3::: :'!' rU.--.T!2R ~so:v"E:> t."'at t.'1e Se le= Co=i ::cee ~epor~ !)ack to t.'":is ~o~ .

Hoose ~i~~ it s views or recomma~Ca:1ons i-, co~~ection ~~e~- wit~ on or oe!o re ~~e 30t:h. :ay o: April , l9SO . sow ::.hat: is how t!'!e Committee came i:;::o ~e1..~;. The Pre:~~e:- gave ~ot: ice .

At"!d w=:at. is t.:te next dccurne!'\t. ·""e !':ave i:~ ::his saga? ~<ell,on Nove:t'.l)er :nrd ., :":iday, No'Jembe~ 23rd., last yea~ ~twas moveC by the hon. ~e ?~e~ie:, and seconCed hy ~~e hon . ~aCe~ o: =~e Cpposie.:.o:-: (~!r . .1i!.illl.e so nl t:hac :he !"c-llo•.Jinc; ~:~e-.l:lers !:le ~ppci:::::e~ to a 5elec~ Comu.it~e c~ e~~uire ineo a~C :o ~ea~ evicie~ce OR all matters ~ela~in~ :o the aCo?t~o~ of a flag for ~-e P~ov1~ce, ~d to ~ecomme~C a s~eci!i: :es~;~ ~he~e:or . .:\!ld c~e seve;"! menbe=s · ...,ere nameC.; the ~~ f:>:- St . .;oh:l ,s ~1or:~ (:1r. ~ .

Ca~:.e~) , ti\e C~ai~an; ~e :1e~~~:-s :or Ki!!:Jriee (~ lr . 1\ylwa~e l ; ~ienihek (Mr. Wals!'ll; E'or:::.:..-:e -He:-:nit:ac;e (~!r . Ste•.Jart l : ?or~ au ?or:: (~r . :ioccie~l : :;rar.c 3a~k (~-i:" . 1'!-.oms ); a.-:c Eagle iU:.-er (M~. :~iscock! . :.~. Ep2:a.~::- ?t:: :!le question, t.:"'le :oo~ _:.o:\ Aas ;a.:-rieC. . No~.~: · .... ·ha~ =0--'!s all ;:h.a;: !1.e.an?

Thac ~.-!.ns that it was ~,e ~r~imo~s consenc ~f c~is House :ha~ se~~n me~e~s o: ~~is r!o:.!se ;o out, he3r •A6a~ :..;e peo;-le o: :.he P:-:vJ.:'lce n_a.e to sa:;, ~o cneec ir. vc!.ocs ple.,;:es in chi s ?:-ov!..."'\cg, t:o hear ·o~~h3. ~ t.,ey ~aC ~o s~y, --c:J' accept f~om ~~e people -::hei~ recororne~dacio:'ls, ~'1ei~ desic;r.s, and ge~e~ally co ~ear :~om ~em, a::C -:o ~ome ba.c~ c.;i1;h a reccm.rnend .ation =.or a sp:ecJ.:ic C.esiqn :or a s;;eci :'ic :.'lag. T!-:ac is •Jha-:: ~'1e Coo::u. c::ee ~·<!s col:i to co ; .. :na:::.::o.o~.:s l:· .

That is whac i:: ~as ::ole ~o do SO:£ !-!ON . :O!E~C:::<S: ~S.':'A..N: or., oh! - ma.,!~ously . -:~a:. :.s ~:-ta: ~:. ~-as :ol :! co :o u~u~ni:r.ot.:sly by the 5!.:t:l -one :.tet:U:ers '"'·:to \·ecaci O:'l ::-ja~ o~ casL: .:1- :-tr . Speak e~ ci:i r:ot have a vote . l'l".ac is 'Jhat the Convnit:::ee 11as c~!.c t~ 381Q

~lay 12, 1980 Tape No. 1461 NM - 2 )!R~ STAGG: do. And the seven members went out and, lo and behold, they brought forth a flag. They brought forth a flag in due course. What more can you ask of them? Where did they meet? Did they meet in secret? Did they meet in camera? Did they meet down at the tavern? Is that what they did? Is that where they met? No, they did not. Here is where they met. They met at st.

John's, Labrador City, Happy Valley, Nain, Ma~~ovik, Davis Inlet, Hopedeale, St. &~thony, Harbour Breton, Burgee, Port aux Basques, Gander, Twillingate, Fogo, Greenspond, Valleyfield, Grand Falls, Stephenville, Corner Brook, Marystown, Grand Bank, Placentia, Clarenville, Bonavista, Harbour Grace, Bell Island, and once again in St. John's. MR. NEA.FtY: Then ignored it all. MR. STAGG: Now what can you say? What can you say about a group that did that in the dead of Winter? What more car. you say than, "Well done! Well done! You are to be corrmended.

You are a group of Ne·.-.-foundla.'1C.ers who ;tlient out and saw ; .. ;hat needed to be. done and you went out and did the job:' SOME nON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~R. STAGG:. I know on the day that they met in Stephenville, the day t.."!ey met in Stephenville and the day they met in Co~!ler Brook - C."1.ey we:tt to Stephenville in the mor:ting and to Corner Brook in the after!"!.oon- it was a blizzc.rd. It was a blizzard in both communities. ~et they met and they had submissions in both communities. And they had some :,00 or 700 designs submitted to t.'"tem. MR. WA&."-EN: I ••onder. MR.

STAGG: The me~~er for Tor~gat Mountains (Mr. Warren) over t.'1ere, Mr. Spea~er, is interjecting. I a~ not sure which language he is speaking in at this time - MR. WA..'<.."-EN: (Inaudible) . MR. STAGG: - but it is certaifl_ly provocative - ~Re SPEAKER: (3utt) Ord.er, plea..se1 ~t..~. STAGG; - and I a.In somet,)·hat pu-c o-:f by :--.im. - -- -- 3S2n

~!ay 1:, 1 ~so Tape No . l<:ol GE -3 ~t.~. STAGG : That hac some 500 o~ 600 designs, a lot of des~gns ~resented to L~em, none o: which was the status ~uo . The sca:;us gco is the Union .Jack. The un ion Jack is r..'le flag o! Net•fou:1dla.:~d at the present time . No~· there is nociling particularly !olewfou."lclandish about the Union ~ack, exce pt our previous association wir..~ it .

Wnen you see ~he flag, the ~nio:1 Jac~ . flying, one automatically thi~'s of the 3r~:. ;=.s!1 !':!.?ize O!" ~nqlanC . :Jnless ~\.;;.e p.e~son i~ eel~ s,?eci!!call}', "~o. r..~at is c:,e Ne•,.,fou. -:d land delega d on" , or, "!'hat is r..'le New!cu:1dland flag", you do not know , The Union Jack - t:.e:-e is :-;o more patrio:i:: pe!"son i~ t.Us Cha...-=be~, a.nC. I a.-n not g ~oinc; :.o ~ape ::ysel~ i~ the :1:~.<; as sowe ~on . members opposite have . c~ ~a lly 1: one goes a:o~"ld draping oneself L, a flag, they =ze about to be tossed over t:he S.lde or .,.,ha;;eve:-.

Tha : may be,!ic:~at.J..vely S!)ea.~i~g, w;, ac may !>e ha??-e:1i~; co some :ne!!'Oe::-s ~ho are dr ap ing r..~emse:~s i:1 the :lag. : will net pa:-!de my pa~iotism around a."'\y ;nore :.ha."\ a."1yor.e else , except to say :.'lee I d!ll as ;n~;ch - ! recogniz e the ::c:'!cr :.Oc.t.lon r..~at -:h e 5ritish ~c!re a::d :::nc;;lu.ci ~as ;naC.e ce :\e· .... ~oc:lCla..~~ as well as a:ly~o:y :!se, ~ct : ac ~o~ ~oweC :,;:· lt. and : am noc a person ·~·ho will say t.'l at !:!ecause ::.h er e were ::e=tain contribu':inc: !acc.ors ::rom E:\gla."lc or :rom the ~pire 3Ei21

~ay 12, 1980 Tape No. 1462 so - l MR. F. STAGG: that we must necessarily be subservient and servile and that we must have their flag and no ather. ~e will be the only Province in Canada that would have it. There are only three or four of the Provinces in Canada that have the Union Jack in their flag and in the course of looking at this subject I looked at the various flags, various provincial flags that are posted up in our common room anc I looked at the flag of :1ani toba.

The flag of ~anitoba has the Union Jack up in the top left-ha~d corner and a buffalo down on the fly,as it is called, and the flag of Alberta has the Union Jack up in the top left-h~~d corner,ar-d a Coat of Arms down on the fly, Nell, ~~eir flags look similar. Ontario has a similar design 1 50 really there is no~~ing unique about them.

New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island have flags w:-:.""!.!~ t"r.e:t· have the aristocrat.ic British lion, and in the case of Prince Edward Island it is perched over a grove of trees,and in the case of New Brunswick it is over an ancient Viking boat, at least one of these boats ~iL~ oars~ nothi~g really that signifies or has qreat significance for these provinces yet they seem to have accepted them. I do not think there c~~ b~ any greater patriots as far as allegiance to the British Empire is concerned t.~an the United Empire Loyalists. the United E~pire Loyalists who peopled ~~e Maritime Provinces.

You go up into New Brunswic~ where I attended university for so~e years, and all you run across are Loyalists and there are people who literally drape thensel ves in the flag. British monarchical tradition, They are the great patriots in ~~e and the people of Nova Scotia similarly and to some extent the people of Prince Edward Island.

There is no move among these reople to have their flags changed and yet no one says that they are separatis-:.s, I£ you voice approval for this flag in this House,one is frequently met by the provocative gestures, in the one case, and the provocative behaviour of the member for Eonavista North (~r. L. Stirli:-:.g) ,·,..•ho on rnany occasions has ta..<en this flag ar.d has ::1ade vulgar gestures wit~ it - sc~ sc~. ~~~sE::.s : C·~, a:,.. 382!

May 12, 1980 MR. F. STAGG: flag, yes, he has and SOME HON. MEMBERS MR. F. STAGG: Tape No. 1462 SD - 2 - has made vulgar gestures with t~is Oh, oh. - he particulary made them, yes he did make them and it is on the record in the Resources Comrr~ttee of last week that I accused the m~er for Bonavista North (~r. L. Stirling) of making 7~lgar gestures wi~~ our flag and he has done it. f.ll HON • ME !-!BE R : He is not here. HR. F. STAGG: Well,if he is not here to defend himself he had better read Hansard,because he has done it and he has done it when it was presented here in the House.

And that sort of thing 1 even for a flag or a document that is not yet passed,is unseemly and I deplore it. And yet I unders~and- I was not here on Friday, Mr. Speaker, I took a couple of days off to go back to my district because ! have been here practically full-time from the time the House has been open - Z>ut I went back ar.d I did read the gentleman's speech , but I believe he was playing to the galleries here on Friday. I wonder did he make a similar gesture on Friday with the flag? I thi~< his whole behaviour in this matter has been deplorable. ;>.N HON. !-!E:.IBE R: I should raise a point of or~er. M.ll..

F. STAGG: What do you mean, point of order? I think his behaviour ~as been deplorable and his debate was rfu~ling. It was long put it was relatively incoherent. Now, has this debate bee orne a partisan issue? I submit it has become a partisan issue, Mr. Spea~er, I~ has become a partisan issue and it was not meant to be a partisan issue.

There could be no more democratic way of presenting anything in this House than to ask for a Select Co~~ittee of rr~mbers of both sides of the House to go out across the Province, to hear submissions from ·~~e people', as han. rne:r,bers opposite are now prone to quote - SO!'.E HON. Y.E."'.EERS: Oh, oh. ~-:9.~ ~. STAGG: - ~ear su~missions from the 9eople, hear a..'1.d see ~ubr.dssions from the people a..~d th~n to come beck here ·..;ith a =ecorr!!'.endation fc.r their ?eers. ··' :- '·;r:: -r::!Tibe~s U.""":.a.":'tinousl.y co!T'.e back 382'::\

~!ay 12 , 198 0 '!'a;::~ No . 1462 so - 3 ~ !!. F . STAGG: \ot.'i :.h a recomne ·ncia.cion, t;hey haC. sorr c assista:·~ce frorn Cfnot:-t er gre.:~ Ne~ ~~·foundlanCe :, Christo~h"er ?ract, ~: .... .-- ~en . ll'.e:r.bers opposite ,·.,nether obl iq uely or overtly , are crit::.ebi ng . !>I.R . G. •,.;A ·RRE~: A soocl '!ory . ~ · f. ST.~GG: A 900d Tory ,the ~ an says. T~ere i~ is, '!::ell'~mbe r for 'l"orng'at :-!ountaL"Is(:-1r. G. :-1arren ) says, "C ..co d Toey", as if chac were to disqual:f y him , I suppose.

Did the three me~he rs of the co mmi tt: ee say~ 11 He is a Tocy 1 '..;e can no: have hirr; "'? 'fes, t:hat wocld :L~ se been the hon . ~il\be r 1 s vot e. ;._ze the::-e any Liber:al artists! :-~:R . G. ~AR?..E!-1 ; Yes. HR. 'f. ST,>G c;: Are there? Well, you know, are there a.,y Liberals? ~'1 0!'1 . X::~SERS: Oh, oh. ,, 12 J

~ay 12, 1950 Tape No. 1463 !-2 - 1 MR. F. STAGG: Christopher Pratt; I do not know if there is a more successful Newfoundland artist, if there is an artist more recognized among his peers than Christopher Pratt,and he helped out the Committee. Now, you can say that the Commi.ttee are liars; you can say,if you want to 1that the member for Kilbride (Mr. Aylward) when he spoke lied to the House. There are hon. ma~~ers who might say that. But what ~~e member for Kilbride said was that if Mr. Pratt had been left on his own to create a flag,this would not have been the flag that he would have created.

And he came to that realization, he came to that decision because the members of the Committee indicated ~~at the flag should be geometric, it should be geome~ric.

And whoever the individual was ·Nho wrote ~~e letter to the Dailv News last week, I wish I had it here because I would read it into the record, and he said the ,;ariety cf opil".ions on •,;hat should be in ~~e flag -and he ~educed it to some extent to absu~dity when he talked about how some people said it should be a codfish, a Newfoundland dog, a caribou, a bey picking bakeapples and a Carnation Milk can or whatever and that sort of thing- these are tr.e sorts of things that all of us believe and know are in some \l~ys symbolic of ~~is Province. We will go along wi~~ that. k~ EON. XE~~R: Good Luck butter. ~R. F.

STAGG: Good Luck butte~, yes. Gocd Luck but~er ~~at has taken Beethove~ ~o sell thair p=oduct ,a~C make exceller-t ads, all of those things. So ~his is the sort of ~ing that ~'le Co:nrnittee was facec'. ·,;ith. They were faced "'i~"l a multitude of objects that were all typical Newfoundlandia - the ~lewfoundland dog and the L~rador Retriever and all that sort of thing. So they decided ~"lat the flag should be geometric, Well is that really something that you should not support them in? I tr.i~~ ~~at the flag - :·lP .• o: HANCOCK: Are you serious (inaudible) 3825

May 12, 1980 Tape No. 1463 ME - 2 Mi<. F. STAGG: The hon. mc~er for St. Mary's - Tne Capes has distinguished himself by not speaking very often in the House, Mr. Speaker. Maybe he will grace us in this debate. M-~. D. H~~COCK: I will have my turn. ~-~. SPE~~R: Order, please. MR. !:'. STAGG: Now, Mr.

Speaker, I submit that the Flag Co~mittee in agreeing that the flag should be geometric made a wise decision because there could be no more controversial subject than, say,to have put a Pitcher Plant there,or to have put a carib~u there, or to have put a Newfoundland dog there, or to have put one of these other objects there. AN. HON. XENEER: Or put a Liberal there. A.." HON. ME:.'IBER: 'l'hat '"'ould not be representative. MR. f. STAGG: Or a Liberal there, yes or whatever . Maybe t.i-te hon. members opposite would ha·;e gone along ,.·ith a big 'L' in t.~e middle of it, yes.

So I a~ satisfied that they came to a reasonable and logical conclusion in saying t.~at the flag should be geometric. Now, what about the design that t.~ey have come up with? Hon. members opposite have decided 1 for some reason or ocher, thac t.'-ley a~e c~iti~s, ~~at they a~e art critics, They do net like the design. It is an aes~~etic thi~g with them, aes~~etic. And i~ has become a par~isan issue .. have seen this sort of thing before, !-Lr. Speake.!'.

I have seen han. me~bers op?Qsite, the group thac were re~pons~ble and their predecessors who were responsible :or the introcuction c: School Tax into ~ewfoundland,get up and almost win an election in 1975 by opposing School Tax when it was ::hey who brought it in. That is ::heir sort of thing~t Once the hon. members opposite find out that something l•1ay have some appeal ac:::-oss the P:::-ovince ,they are on the bandwagon even i!' it means that t.'-leir buddies, the member for ?crt au Port (Hr. riodcer) , ar.d ~,e membe~ for ~agle rtive~ (Mr. Hiscock) and ~,e menbe~ for G~a~2 .aar.k 01r.

T:toms} ,even if it. means scuttling ~~=m. ).n,d I su=r..i~, r-:r. 3S2R

}!ay 12, 1980 Tap e 1463 !~13 - 3 M...~. :. ST.~GG: Speake~, that it is not a free vo~e on the opposite side. T~e lead-off speake~ for the Opposition, or one of the lead-off speakers for the Opposition was the Leader of the Opposition, ~..;ho said t..'"lat he does not support it. I mus~ say it was not one of his bette~ ef:orts. The Leader of the Opposition is k..";.O\Vn fa~ his great Qebatino ability. He is renowned for his ability to spin en~apturi~g tales . AnC his 3 8 2 7

Xay 12, 1980 Tape No.l464 EL 1 MR. F. STAGG: storytelling ability and his speech- making ability are legend in this Province. As a matter of fact, he was at a very early age, I believe, enlisted by a group of Newfoundlanders who thought we should have economic union with the United States. Well, he has come to his - he certainly came around from t.'lat point of view, later. MR. D. JA1HESON: You are certainly r~~ling now. M..'<. F. STAGG: Well, if I am rambling, Mr.Speaker, I am rambling on some very - ~IR. L. THO!·!S: You are no r~~~ling rose. M..'<.. F.

STAGG: - fertile ground. so, the Leader of the Opposition, for whom I have the greatest respect-and I cannot get angry at the Leader of the Opposition. I like him- he decides, for whatever reason ,that he is not going to support it. Now he has three members over there, three members of the rlag Committee who are honour bound to support this. Not only are t.~ey honour bound to support it, I believe t.~ey are going to support it,and I know that the member for Grand Sank(L. Thoms) is going to support it. !o!R. J. HODDER: The more you speak, the less chance t.here is of i ~ !{R. F.

STAGG: Well, i= t~e ~ore s;e~.-; 50!1 E EON.. Y~~L R S: He ar, ::e..i=. MR. F. STAGG: If the han. me~~er from Port au Por t (J. Hodder) indicates ~hat what I have co say is going to persuade hi ~ to vote against this flag, then maybe I .;o"i..:ld s-.:. ggest. ~;.at t:-;,2 :ton. i!'.e::-:.be:- :-:-.ig:-.:: be just looking for an out. But I do not think that these three merr~ers oi the Flag Cornmictee from the Opposition si de o f ~~~s House are ~oi~ ~ ~o vote against this flag,but ! have yet to hear any other hon. me~er on the :>ther.·sic!e break ::-anks in the free vote tradit ion, in the f.::-oee vote 382P

Hay 12, 1980 Tape No. 14 64 EL - 2 MR. F. STAGG: tradition that was sanctioned here by our leader. We have had one of our members on this side of the House, the member for st. John's Centre(P. ~cNicholas) - AN. HON. M&~BER: And more to come. MR. F. STAGG: - speak out and say that he cannot support the flag. It is a matter he explained himself adequately. I do not agree with him - ~~. D. J~~IESON: ~~. SPEAKER (Butt): Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. J~'IIESON: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

On a point of order, the hon. the I welcome the fact that the hon. the member says he cannot get mad at me,but surely goodness I cannot get mad at him eiL~er,other than if he is going to make these kind of statements, he should m~~e them fully, namely that it was I, as the Leader of the Opposition .who informed ~~e House first and indicated there was going to be a free vote on this side. I hoped, as a matter of guidance, but apart from eve~Jthing else, to keep the record straight, surely that ought to be on the record if the hon. me~ber speaks. MR.

SPEA.'<ER: Once ag•in there is no point of order but ~~e hon. the Leader of the Opposition wanted to set the record straight. The hon. the rnenber for Stephenville. :1-'l.. F. STAGG : Well, ! k.nO"-', ~r. Speaker, tha:. the hon. the LeaCer of the Opposition called ~or a free vote. That was be:o~e the Open Line ?rograms were see~ingly st=ikino a responsive nerve - S0~·1E :!Oti . ~{E~1B E~S : Oh, o:~! MR. F.

ST~.GG: - across the Province and there may have been something - there may have been so~~ people who are - there might be some political advantage to be gained from it. ~·Jf:ll, it is a free vote on this sicie. It is a free vote on ~his side and I ~~ a pe~son ~ha is goi~~ ~o support the flag. I agreed with the original designation of the Selec~ ~ ~? q w ~ ....

:~ay 12, 198: ':'ape :;o . 146-1 ..:...... - 3 M~ . F. S':'.,.GG: Co ~i ~~ ee ! ag=eec ~i~h ~he ~e=ms of =e fe !'er.=e a:.c I st. ill agree .,,;.: ;-,. .:. :, a..~d ! aq ree with c:U.s :lag .. Ic is not only a~ ad&~a~e fla~, it is a supe=io~ :lag. !twill be ~~e ~eaces: :lag o~ any ?!'"ov:..nclal gove rr.;.T-e~: or o: any p rovi:u:e . ! :. will be the :r:ost C.!.sc i':lc:. ive flag . Yot: wil l r:ct see !.t :ly and · .. :c:1der i f :.t !.s .!. l.;)er~a ::r !-ia::ito:a , as !1a:-tit;l~a and A~e~c..a - :.,.-,e p:-o~lems :.hey have . You ·,.,ill :.t:to'·"· :~ at ic. is !'ew=o<J:'lci!.anC.

You • ... •ill ~no, ... · t..~a~ it i s. xe~·:ou!"ld1ancl. 3u: b.ack t o ·..;~e-: he r or not c!'lis is a pa= ~is a;, iss:Je . Yes, ! \<-'OulC say ~hat hon. ~e~:Oe:-s o_p.oosi :.e, for ·Nha::.e-ve::- re.aso:l, now are !.!'\ a position that t...~ey hav~ to ba=-k t.:p ':-.ite !.~ leaCe r, ar:C ·~·-it.~ -:he e:<cepdor. of C.:-:e c.h=ee hon . ~e:.'lbe !"'s ....:ho a~2 o=-: c ~ Flac; Co~i:t.ee a:1C a:-'! ~o :;o u :: bo1..::1C ~o St::?po !"~ :.c., I Co:.!.!::: wheche:- a:ty o":.:t!!-~ metr:ber o•1er t he:-e is <JOi::<; t o !>rea~ =-a:1ks ~,o,·ith t::e Leade .r c: c.:,e Opposi"t.io:- ..

Sut: ! '•·:ill say t-~is, I 'Nil l say -:his co eny !1on. me:I".be!" oppos:.~e ·.,_,~~ o :--:as leade:ship aspi:-a~io!1S, a:1y ~on . rr.e.~ ~= opposio:_e ,,.,::to has leaCe:-s~i.;:: a.spi r a r:!.o:1S, t.~csc of :lo u "Nho ~,o!:e ~or t...~is flag '"'i ll ccr :-y wo:-e :avou=- wi ::.'1 1;;-:e cele.ga~es 1;o ::"'a~ c:o :wen 1;:.~n :.;.,an :.":cse o: you ... ~o vo :e aga:.:ts ~ it, be.ca'.:se ., vo:ing agains;. i~, yoc. ass ociace ~tou ~selves .... ,it:""t a. ki:;C of ~e_i:tcl; s :-ema :-ks a~ ges ~ u:-es a .r.C. so on maCe ~y ?ecple lik e t..~.e ~e.'i'\.be: !or Sonav!. s~ a !,;o =-~=--. ,. \ ...Jo 5-:!.r!i~q) .

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May 12, 1980, Tape 1466, Page 1 -- apb NR. ST . .,GG: I cannot see it: And I wonder h01-1 do these hen. members feel? I would no'c like to be part of a group, I would never be part of a group that would send you out to do something of this importance, send you out ~;i th our blessing and when you come back and you are sticking our there on the limb, to find that there is somebody in there sawing it off, sawing it off and hope, really, that you are unsuccessful. I have never seen a more dispicable political act whereby one group would try to do that sort of thing to their colleagues.

There is no precedent for it that I am a1,·are of. So I deplore it, Mr. Speaker. I think that pretty well clues up my remarks, Mr. Speaker. I think my time is up. I am going to vote for the flag. I do not know how many members opposite are going to vote for it, or on this side are going to vote for it. We have not been whipped into line, I will tell you that. We have not been whipped into line.

There is nobody holding anything over our heads to vote for it or else. aut I will support it a~d I hope that there will be more than the three han. me:nbe::-s i.Vho l,vere on that r lag CoiTL:ti ttee from the other side who will vote for it. That would give me some assurance that this is not entirely a partisan debate. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME EON. ~MBERS: Eear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER(3aird): The hen. the ms~ber for Le1visporte. SOME Em<. XEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. l·iHIT2: Mr.

Speaker, I do not t~ink I have heard such utter nonsense i~ this Souse of il.ssernbly before as I have heard here today, and I can Zullv understa~d it, ~r~ S?eaker, after the r~~ark3 t~at the han. the msn tber ~or Stephe~vil!e ~~lr. Stagg ) ~~de 3 S 3 I.

~av 12, 1980, Tape 1466, Page 2 -- apb MR. WHITE: about the Premier today, when he was elected leader of the Conservative Party at that convention, I am sure he 140uld do anything to get back into the favour of the Premier at the moment and I am sure that is one of the reasons. There is no wonder, Mr.

Speaker, that members on this side of the House, or so many members have decided to vote against this flag in view of co~~ents that have come from the other side, like we just heard from the member for Stephenville, who has tried to turn this debate into a partisan issue, and we all thought that it was going to be a free vote and a free debate in this House. Mr. Speaker, I think that the process of choosing a new flag for Newfoundland was the right process.

I have wanted for years to see a new flag introduced into this Legislature and I was delighted a while back when a Committee was struck from among members here to hold hearings, travel around the Province, and bring back a design for a new flag. I think the Committee did a great job. I think they did their homework well. I think they were smart in authorizing Christopher Pratt to design a flag and to pick from that design. I think that the design they came up with is a magnificent design and I like it very, very much, Mr. Speaker. I am not going to be very long in this debate, Mr.

Speaker, I just want to make a few co~~ents. I think the design, the geometric design is the kind of flag we need for Newfoundland. I think it is modern, I think it is symbolic in many ways. Depending on the point of vie•t~ of the observer I think a lot of things can be seen in this flag and 7 think that in years to come youn·0 ~Je,....;:Eoundlancie~s ltiill grow to like t~is flag, ~onour this flag and ~espec~ this 3S3S

~!?.y 12, 1980, Tape 1466, ?age 3 -- apb :-.t~ . t·Jt:ITE : flag. I had che O??Or~~nity yesterday - I ha\·e an eighteen mo:11:h ole son ar:d eac!'! weekend that I see him, of course, I try to teach him ne;.; ;.;ords a.-;d yesterday when I !:lrought hi:n to St . Jotn 1 s 'd ~~ ::te I cook !li:n arou:!c and I shov.·ed ~i:':l all t~e :1a;;s r could :.:.nd a.•d I t3.ug!"lc hi:n a ne\·1 ·,;ord 1 flag 1 • A:tc:i I ar.t sure t;,a., when he gro1o~s ;,:.p :te ,,·ill love ::his flag of ~ew:ou:1dland, i: it goes ~hrough the Hocse o: Assembly. 3~c, ~r . Spea~er, I am :to:: goi:1g to 'lcte :or t~is flag .

SO~ liON . ~!BMBE~S : ~!R . :V1HrE : Hear , hear ! I am goi:~g co vote against i:: ;:1d I ~ave a ::~m.::er o.: reasons :or coir .g so . ~:o;: beca~se of tte acyal Ca~acia~ :egion. I am :10:: goir.g to voce agai~st ic because ~;,e Royal Canaci3.n :egion are agains~ it , I am not against it because o: c~at . As a :na:: cer of :a::::, a :~u:aber of ::he Royal Ca::acia:1 L.eg 1.on :ne:nbers i:1 :ev.·is?or::e said co ::1e ::!"lac I si:ou :c 'JO~e :or the :lag . They c~me l.:.? to ::::e, a;1cl thot.!gh~ ~ha:. is t·:as a pretty good d~sigr, , end it •t~as ti:ne that · .. ;e hac a ne\• flag :or Net ·;£ounc land .

One o: ::~e reasc::s I a~ g~i~s to ~o~e agai~st :~i s ~!ag, ~r . Speaker, ~s ~e=a~se of t!"le '1al.: -hearc.ed a9prcach t!'le governnent:. has used in bringing in =!"lis flag . They say that we are not qo.1.ng t:.o rB!)lace ~he Union Jack t .. ·:.-c:'1 it .. t.=:at ~he ti :1iOZ1 .;ac:< anC c..;,e ~s"' :r ~etv:o:1::Cia::ci ::..ag can =ly tog~~!'ler . :.;ell, : disagree ·,;i t!"l :::;at: .

I :hink i.: we are going ::o :;a ve a ::e• . .; ::..ag :or ~iew.:ounal.and, then lee :ic !:le a ;;e,,.· : .:.ag :o~ :Ve,_..~:o'J:td.!.!nC a!'!C :et i ~ repla.:s t::e :.::lion .:ack as ~~= o:.:i~ia!. :ls.g o: ~~:~ .. ·: o'-:~l a:1a =-~C. :10;: ::;s:. :e : .. ·is!'- .. ::· -·.-~~~~Y ab'!)"..!= i: :.nci c.:;: ~o ha·:e c::e ;,as= c: ~ot:: ..._-o:- lds . 3 S3~

~ay 12, 19SC, Tape 1466 , ?a~e 4 -- apb NR . lv"F.ITE: So thac is one oE ~he reaso~s why I am voti;-:g against this :lag . I also chink, .\!r . Speake.:-, ti:.at the govern!:lent ::as tried too fast and too ha .:-d to push this flag through the :egislature . One o: the reasons so ma~y pe ople a~e against ic throughout ~ewfoundla~d is because t~ey ha\ ·e ~ever eve~ see~ it . : ~ave people cc~e ~? ~c me in my 0' -'-n district and sa y, "I ~ope you a.:-e :10c vo ting :or t!lat :'lag" .

I have said to the.1'., ":-ia;;e you seen t~e Elag?" "~lo , 1ve have not seen t~e flag". so there are coo ~any people, there are thousands o::: people throughol:t :-;e·.r:ou:~dland a:~d Lab~ador ~.·ho ::ave not even seen the :'lag that they are going to ha•:e !:.yi:~g o1.·er :Xe\,::'oundla:1c, ?robably i:: a :e•.r ·,.,ee~s . So tha:: is, :>!r . Spea~er, anot he r ::eason :,·hy I am opposi::~ ::his :lag. Another reason is because o::: the avalanche of p•..:blic opinic:: throt:ghout :ny own c~strict agains~ ~~is :'las. :O!R .

S'!'AGG : Yo~ are sca~ed ~o~ . :0!!{ ~ :·;~:~E: I a:n ::o::. sca:C!d . ~ow, I am :10t scar<!d . ':':1e ho:1 . ::hi! mem:,er fer S t:e?henvi lle - ~L~ . ~r::~Y ! t:: '.-.:as e:ec~cC ~s .a servan:: of ~~e people. 1'1'~!:\. .. 1:-:ii':'~ : T~a~ is :::-ig::~ . ~G. . SP!:~-~2-:t (Ba.:~a O!:'.i.er, ?leas~! MR . :·:HI':'E:: I ser ve the people and I ~e::.c ::o ~o a!o~s :·:it:t p'.:olic is a :ine way ~-:) "7 ...; .J- .

!-!ay 1~, 1980 Tape )lo. 1467 Gf!-1 1-!R. 1\'HITE: opinion, if I think that is a fine way to do things. The avalanche of public opinion in my district, Hr. Spea'<e:::, has been ur~elievcble, and not only that, but f:::om last weekend to this past '•eekend it grew even greater than it .. -as before. First when the flag was passed around in t~e Legislature, this colou:::ed brochure, I took it and I se~t it out to every high s~hool principal in my district.

I said to them, "Please take this, shorr~ it to your students in assembly, take a vote, get the reaction of t.;,e s t.aff and so on" . 1Nell, ••i th the exception of one class t.<ho voted 63 per cent in favour of the flag, one class, the rernainde= has been u~animously against the flag in ever~- othe~ school, i~ every o~ter classroom, teacher3, students alik~. I got ~ call today ~hat ~~e Campbellton Town Council, one of the largest towns in my district, met in emergency session and unanimously opposed the flag. Other councils are planni~g to do ~~e sa~e. So, ~!r. Spea~e~ - MR.

STAGG: You are scared (inaudible). :l::t.. ~<JEI':E: Scared of T, .. .-hat? I mean I ::auld tell ~h= :nember fo!' Step-henville (M!:'. 3tagg} that I a..:-r. not scare::i o:f ~~im - ~!R. SPEAKE~: (Sir::ms) t1R. "H!'!'E: Order, please! -or anyone el3e. W~ether t~is flag issue means one single vote, I do not care "because I Co not ~hi:-:..~ it does. I do not thi!1k it will cost t~e government one single ~.rote -=a push ~"rJ.is ... ...-o~e ':h~oug~ the House, not a vote.

I do !"!.Ot thi..n~ they · . .,ril.l •Nin a vote on it !;J·..- pushing ::~is t~~ot:gh t:~e: riouse :JZ .~.ssembl~t· I ~us-: thi:1k =hat -:.he people of Ne~ ... :foundland, i: ~hey are for-.:eC. to 5-ccep::. this flag, ·,:ill accept it as : ~ .. ;ill ..:o a..~C ·,..,ill g!"ow to live w·ith it and 't.'ork 'Hi.th :.t do;..jn thr~ugh t:"le years. So, :Wtr. Speaker, that is about all that I •.vruJ.taC to say on the flag issue.

I like the ne·.-.· flag, ~ like the apsroach that ~,.;as taken, but I cannot ·rete =or it :Occause of -c:1e ?a~tisan way the government has gone about t!:'ying to push thi.~ ~~!:'C'i.l;~ the rlouse, not qivi~g the .?eoplc e:1o~..1gh time t~roughout NewfcunC.lar~d ~() S'="= t~!e :"J.e•.v .::lc..g, ar.d I t~i:tf::. i-: is scmet~.:.nq chat ~ould ['.a~:e bee:1 a q!'"E-5.~ t::.i!"l.~ for ~e ~ .. ,fcunC.la:LC.. It ::ould '.:"l~ve Dee.::. O!:'C'.!g~t i:-., it ::0111.-:: ~a-..:e ::e-=: n :::::ebc.l:.e.:i ser:.si!:.l?, ! ... ·2 ~cul::. al~o.s-t ha.•:-e q~c-.:er.. ·..1!'1.an~.:r.ous 3B3A

:·!a\• 1~, 19$0 ::'a;:e ::Jo . l.J.O.., G;;-:z HR. W::ITE: consent on this flag, but the way the goverr.ment has approached this has been wrong, the way they have gone about it has been wrong - MR. W. ROWE: Arrogant. ~!R . ,.n;rr:: : - and their arrogant approach in t~ing to force this on the people of Newfoundland has caused me, in the past four or five days, to change my mind and,

whereas a week or so ago I intended to vote for the flag I am now saying no, and for the member for St. John's Nortb (1'\r. J. Carter) it is 'nicht' SOME HON. ~!EM5ERS : Hear, hearJ --- - MR. SPEA.'<ER: (Simms) Before I recognize the hon. member for St. John's West, I would like to welcome to the galleries, and I am sure all hon. members •;tould like to join me in issuing this •,tel come to the M.?. for Kingston, I think it is, Flora MacDonald, Kingston-The Isl~<ds. SON£ ~ON • ME!•lBERS : Hear, hear! ~!R. S?:O::il.KER: The han. member for St. John's West. 1-L'!.. BAR..'~ETT: Tha~k you, ~x. Speaker. 1".

I should first of all cong .ratulate the ' ~ members of the Select Committee of this House under the chairmanship of my C.istinguisheC. colleague, t_!-).e member for St. John's ~~orth (~. J. Carter), and I •;tollld compliment them on t.~eir initiative and their de<iication and ~~e fac-:. that they ~Here able to bring in a unanimous !:'eport to t.:."lis Rouse in t...1.e :::crm of t..~e flag desigr-! -,..;hic!-1 '~Je a.re now .:iebatina.

This Com!'<:.ittee, as has bee~ e-xpressed many times, has been formed ; .. ;ith the unanimous consent of this P.ouse, comprising of members of both sides of this House, and has re~urned a unanimous report co b~e gouse for the adoption oi the flag design t..i-tat 'Ne now have befo?:e us. I should prob~ly indi=ate that I feel that this design is ~ design of the Comtnittee, a design of the Com..1Tiittee that has been developed th~o~gh many ~eetings ar.d submi3sions. I~ is not t~e ~es~gn cf the ~~tist. : like this 5lag.

I C2~ respond anQ I ::.a..'i. re2.a~e to its design, but ! have a O.i.:fere~t =~xtvistion t~ar. :ny -=olleague opposit:, ¥rho also likes it bt:t :.s ~,roti:"..g against it. I like it an ·i : • ... ;ill -:rotc :o~ it. 383(1

~·:2-Y l:::, 1950 'I3.;>e )!o. 146'7 GE-3 :·ts.. s_;R..~TT: I t.....,_ink tha~ excep~:ion shoulC be taken -- --- to the !!l2:1Y de=ogaL:J~Y ::ema!:"ks that are coming ::rom some c.: the me:nbers op9osi te towards the artis':. 't·iho cornp::-ised this visual ef::ect, Dr. Chr1stopt-.er Pratt~ I a"'!\ s::-tockaCi a.t t.h-: 'Nay some members opposit.e have portrayed this ve~y loyal ~e~t.'foundlG..J.:.Ce!:", this very s;nsi tive f.lew::oundlar.cier a.!:.C. this ?er·: ir. telii;ent N~r .. ;fou .. '1CilanC.e2:', a ~ewfounC.l:.nder •,,;ho ;;as err:e::::-geC as on: ::f t.":1ic . ?.!."evince• s and, indeed, t~is country•s best known an.:S.. nost respected 1..1 ~I ,I 1-.1

~:a.y 12, 1980 Tape ~·lo. 1468 IB-1 ~lrt. 3AR.ti.ETT: artists. It is totally wrong, ~- Speaker, criminally '"rang that he should receive such personal abuse from members of the Opposition. This artist co-ordinated in a visual presentation the thoughts and the findings of this Souse of Assembly's ~:ag Committee, the thoughts and findings that were the culmination of several months study,of hours of research, n~~erous interviews, hearings throughout the ?rovince and submissions from many interested groups and from inaividuals.

Each person, I think, in this Province had a preconceived idea of \ihat they •..;ould like to see in the way of a flag when this Flag Committee was first announced. It is only natural to assume that if you have a preconceived idea of what you would like to see in a flag visually, that if a designer or SOQe committee came out with something that did not ~espond in all its ways to tha~ preconceived idea that you have ~hat the initial reaction would :be that you are against the design.

H01vever, I thi:1k that one thing has come through from this pa:::-tic:ula.:r desi;n is that it is distinctive, it ±s individualistic, it is ~eprese~tative of this Province, it is representative without becoming a kaleidoscope c= images, images that some ~embers opposite suggest that we should por~~ay on this flag. r= one really got carried aw~y ~ith ycu~ i~agination we should have on a si~gle flag, a •:.;nion Jack, a caribou, a codfish, a ~e~l'l::oundlanC. dog, ~aybe a Labrador dog th!:'o·..:n in, a Beot:huk ~nci.ian 2.t least, a spruce bough, a :fleur de ljs because • .• .,-e cia have a E"Yench sectio~ as #.,.:as i:~:iicated her:= coC.c..y, the Stars t-.r..d .5tri?es at lees~ to rc::f)::-eser-..t all the bases that the P.P..erisans have ?Ut here and .;o many of o·~r people have become natives of that fair country. tie s~ould, I suppose, have a symbol of C>'"-.1!."' :nining industry !:"epresentad and :,.;ha~ 3.bou.t the fo:rest indust~y, should. 'Ne 1;.ot have something representatif;e of chat, maybe a roll of newsprint?

P..nd certainly ·,;e coulC !101: £orget a seal. ~'ie would have to have a se2.l on the flag .a:J.d 2 ~i-:.:::,.er ?lant a3 ' • .;ell. ~'\..."ld all of tl"'.is, :~~. S9ea..k~~, i~ beau~if~..._l 1:.ving colour of pi!1.2<:, ·,o~hi te and green. ~·I0\-1 tr.a-c. is ~he pr8vi:lcial :lag t::a~ is -::1visa..ged 38~

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