Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 8B (25th Legislature, 1st Session)

25-1-8b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGI SLATIV E ASSEi•'lBLY OF MANITOB A 8:00 o'clock, Monday, Nove mber ?rd, 19 58. Opening prayer by Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER : Presenting Petitions Reading and �eceivin g Petitions Pre senting Report s by Standing and Select Comm ittees Notices of Motion In trodu ction of Bills Or ders of th e Day l'IJ.R.. M. A. GRAY ( Ink st er) : !vir. Speaker, may I direct a que stion to th e honourable th e Attorney-G eneral. I see in th e press today , Manitoba taxe s appeal qu ashed . Thi s is in connection with th e right of the mu nicipalities to put a tax on th e railways .

My que stion is whether th e intention of th e gover mnent to proceed fu rther with an appeal against th e Supreme Cou rt Decision. HON . STERLING LYON (At torney-Gener al): Mr . Speaker, like the honourabl e member for In kst er, my first knm-iledge of th is matter was from reading today's paper . My only comment at this stage is this, that we have' not, as yet , hnd th e opportu nity to read the judgme nt of th e Supreme Cou rt .

I understand it was a unanimous judgment and of course our attitude toward any fu rther appeal will be dependent entirely unon the studies that are made upon the judgment as de liv ered by th e Supreme Court . I couldn't giv e you a final answer at this stage , Sir. M,L F. GROVES (St . Vital) : Mr. Speake r bef ore th e Or ders of th e Day, I would lik e to bring to th e attention of the members of th e Hou se, particularly those that don't read the snort s pa�e , that on Sunday last, th e St .

Vital Bulld ogs won th e provi ncial intermediate footb all championships and next week they carry Manitoba 1 s colours into the li·.'estern Canada semi -f inals against Fort VVilliam. I am sure that all th e members of the House will join with me in offer ing to th is team, from my constituency , our best wish e s for their fu rther success . :tvD.-L R. PAULLEY (:{ad isson) : Mr . Speaker , as I understand it , a considerable number of th e Bulld ogs come from th at portion of St . Vital whi ch I have th e honour to represent. I mo st heartily endorse the remarks of my friend fr om St .

Vital and ext end also to the Bulld ogs th e best wishe s of th e represent�tive of Radisson. MR. SPEAKER : ...•. Committee of the vvho le Hou se. HON . STEVvART E. 1-icLBAN (Mi nister of Education) : !vir. Speaker, I move , seconded by the Honourable th e l!Iinister of Health and Welfar e , that Mr . Speaker do now leave the Ch air and th e Hou s e resolve itself into Committees to consider th e fol lO\,Iing Bill , No . 13 ,

an Act to amend the Veterinary Se ience Scholarship Fu nd .Act. 1

Mr. Speaker presented th e motion and after a voice vot e declared th e ffiotion carr ied . M1. SPEAKER: The honourable member fo r St. Matthews please take th e Ch air . 1-·E. CHAEU1AN: Is the House ready to consider th e Bill . Bill 13,

an Act to Amend th e Vetr�rinary Science Scho larship Fund Act .

Section l of the bill ,

section 2 of th e bill . KL GRAY: Mr. Chairman, may I ask a qu estion? :�soo.oo seems to be qu ite a bit of money, but that is not what I vmnt ed to know . If any student that has no funds and he may be good material for th is profession, is $2 ,000. 00 in the opinion of the Department suffic ient? HON . DUFF ROB LIN (Pre mier) : The Minister is not her e , Mr. Chairman, but I think I can undertake to answer that in th e aff irmative .

The sum is arrived at because it is th e same amount that is allowed for students in the degre e cours e in A�riculture , a ve ry closely allied bu siness, so we are merely bringing the Veterinarian Scholarsh ips in line. That is my understanding of th e matter. I believe they are considered adequate th at price, that amount . MR . CHAitUvlAN:

Section l of the Bill, agreed;

Section 2 of the Bill ,

preamble , Title , •••.• Bill be renorted. The Comm ittee of the vvhole has considered Bill 13 and ha s asked me to report the same without amendments ...• D'L vv. G. lviARTIN (S t . Matthe·ws): Mr . Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the honourable member for Roblin, that th e renort of the Committee be received . Mr. Sneaker put th e que stion and after a voic e vot e declar ed the mot ion carr ied. MR . SPEAKER: Ord er for Return , th e honourable member for Fish er lv·EZ. ROB LIN : Third reading Mr . Speaker . MR.. McLEAN: I move , seconded by th e honourable the Minister of Labour , that Bill No . 13,

an Act to Amend th e Veterinary Scienc e Schol arship Fund Act be now read a second time and passed . Sorry , th ird time . Mr. Sneaker presented the mot ion and after a voice vote declared the motion carr ied . MR. SPEAKER: Fisher . Ord er for Return . The honourab le member for MR. �. PAULLEY (Ra disson): lvlr. Speaker, I beg to -::1ove , in 2

l-'i.'_�. PAULLEY (Continued} the absenc e of the honourable member for Fisher , seconded by th e hononrable mernber for Seven Oaks, that an Ord er of tre House do issue for Return showing t1.,e i terns and questions in the name of th e honourabl e member fo ::-- Fi sh er. MR. SPEAKER: It hAs been moved by the honourabl e member for Radis son, seconded by the ho nourabl e member for Seven Oaks, that an Ord er of th e House do issue for a Return sh owing the question s standing in his name. MR.

ROB LIN: •••••... the questions put, I- vJOuld like to sa y that I have sone res ervAtions ahout the scop e of tJ:->is question in some respects. I kno,,r that certain info rmation here is asked fo r. on a constituency bAsis, vrhich I kn ow h;:nre been refuse d in times gone by, but it's not that so much th.<Jt I refer tn, but some of th e se questions really are as king what arl.vice a Minister propo ses to give th e Crown on matters of polic y; and it is not customary, in fact it is contrary to the rules that question s of thRt nature should be ask ed.

You can as k what advice we hrtve given to the Cro,•m, but no.t as k w1·:Pt advic e we propos e to give the Crown. Be caus e fnr reas ons thn t ar e obvious, that 's not th e type of question that is usual ly permitted; so whil,e I don't think that it be ne cess ary to go so far as to oppose the motion, I would li ke to have it clearly unders tood that th ere are some questions which we will not be abl e to answer becaus e we will be abiding by that particular rul e.

And as long as it's under stood that the questions will not be answered in all-pa rticulars and that the member doesn't obje ct to that, we'll acc ept the motion on tho se con ditions. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I think that is agreeable. We did ho pe that under the new regime some of the old arguments that we used to ha ve on Ord ers of Return would not be fo llowed through, but we would be perfectl.y happ y tn acc ept the condition s of th e honourable First Minister. MR. ROBLIN : This is not an old argument; thi-� i� Bea uche sne 295, sub-se ction cc, third edition 1�43. lvJR. PAULLEY : I was referring, Mr.

Speaker, to th e poin t rais.ed by the honourable First Minister hims elf. HON. ERR ICK F. vVILLIS Q.C . (Minister of Agriculture) : !vir. Speak er if I might with th e con sent of the House, sa y but ·one word because it- is dir ected to O'Jr dep<lrtment. I sho··lrl. like to inform the questioner tl1::1t on the fi2st ten questions here it call s for an expenditure o-f ahout 1 mil li on an d a half do llar s, and thC1.t number el even question all by it self is worth mor e than a mil lion dol lar s expenditure; therefore to even get you an opinion in regard to it will take quite a length of time . MR. R.S.

CLEME NT (Bir tle- Russell ): Mr. Speilker, I would suggest, du e tn th e f"'ct trtat t1.,i s particular Order fo r Return has alrea dy brought the First Minister and the Minister of 3

1-·i'l. CLLl<ENT (C,liiL:Lnued) Pu blic \·,orks to ltis fe et, that mayb e it should be held ov er until the honour able memb er is here hims elf to explain it , or ask for it . lvt<.. SPE AKE�(: Are yo u ready for the que stion? 1'-1R. D. L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opoosition) : I am sure the honour able e:entleman who moved the r'esolution can explain it with out any troub le if he would just run through it fo r the benefit of the House. . MR. ROB LIN : We'd be glad to supply th e citation ...• HR.. SPBAKER: Are yo u ready for th e qu estion? MR. R. 0.

LIS SAMAN (B randon): I th ough t there was a restriction on the size of a net a fisherman might use in th is provi nce. Jv!.;.(. (, A.lviPBELL: ..•• the minimum , not th e maximum . Mr . Speaker put the que stion and aft er a vo ice vo te declar ed the motion carried • .lv�. SPEAKER : Adjour n debate, on the proposed motion. The honourable member fo r Robli n--the honourable memb er fo r Assiniboia has the flo or . MR. D. SV1AILES (A ssiniboia): Mr .

Speaker , now th at the Leaders of th e th ree gr oups in this House have snoken on this motion, we find , strangely enough , th at we all have sometl1ing in common. 1i'le find that the first Minister has no confidence \'.'hat ever in these two gr oups . We fi nd that the �eader of the OncQsi tion has no confidenc e in this group and that gr oup , we find also, that we on this side have no confidence in either those or those. We hav e no confidence in either of the Conserv ative Parties in this House .

I wa s very pleased and ve ry amused v.,lwn the vo lcanic member from Carillon had bl ew his crater the other ni�ht . I'd fo r�otten that radio speech th at I had made �h en I ment:Lonel th e fact - th �t there was no such thing as a Roblin team . Most of you viill remember the bic: and expensive billboards that \v·ere spread all ov er the city indicating the existence of a Roblin team .

And that br oucht to mind the experienc e of last year vh en the present fir st �inister who was then the Leader of the offic ial Opposition move d .::t motion of non-c onfidence in the cove rnment and not a single member of his gr oup got up to speak in favo ur of that motion. The motion went through, vdt hout a single member of his gr oup speaking to tl1e motion. That indicated to some extent th e amount of team work there v.ras in existence at that t irne.

I mu st say, however, that frankly and tru thful ly, that th ere is now some semblance of a team , owl I do c on• :rat ulat e the Leader, the First l'-'linister to that extent. Now it1s ev ident fr om the speeches th at have been made uc to

MrZ. S\:,AILES (Co ntin ued ) now th at our Cons er va ti ve frie nd s to my right her e ar e exasP er ate d and fr ust ra ted. I th ink it was the hono urable membe r for Brok en he ad who su gge ste d th at thei r fr ustr at ions were sho win� th rough thei r neglig ees . And , as a ma tte r of fact, I th ink th ey're al mo st desp er at e.

And it 's no wonde r re al ly th at th ey are exa sp er at ed and fr ustr at ed an d des per at � b� ca us e it has been de mo nstr at ed very fo rc ibly and ver y cl ea r ly th at the people of l''mnit oba were ti red of this lRck of ac ti on and I th ink to o, th at one of th e fact ors that co ntrib ut ed to their failure was the su pport th ey got fr om th e Vv'innineg Fre e Pres s. On th e ot he r hRnd, th e lit tle succ ess thAt we atta i ned can be attr ib ut ed in so me me a sure to the act ion that was ta ken in Winnipe g in April of th is ye ar by the CanRdian La bour Congr ess .

I th ink th at the fut ure is go ing to sho w that th e sup oort and th e ac tivit y of th e Cana di an Lab our Congre ss in co nnect ion wit h th e C.C.F. is go ing to be much more valuable and effe ct ive than any sup port tha t the Fre e Pr ess ca n giv e to our frie nd s on this si de of th e House, and th at, hav ing th at in mind th en our pr osn ect s for the fut ure are cer tai nly mu ch be tter th an th ei rs . Now this fr ustr at ion and exasp er at ion has be en dem on st r ated by th e co urt s of' act i on th at our fr ien d s hav e fo llo wed in th is

part icular sessi on of the Hous e. Th ey ' ve just stag gered fr om one blu nd er to anoth er. The fi rst blund er was ma de, and th is is the general opinion of people ac ros s the provinc e, when they oppos ed, when the y oppos ed, as th ey did , and to th e le ngth that they di d the el ecti on of a sn eake r. The seco nd bl und er was ma de in th e nAture of th e ta lk s gi ven by.the lead er of th e offic ial onoo si tion, and the thi rd blund er was ma de in the att emnt s th at were mad e to amen d I th ink it was Bill No . 8, yeah! Bill No . 8.

Now, our fr ie nd s had quit e a number of sugge st ions wit h re sn ec t to amen dments to Bill No . $ and over th e years it ha s been th e ge ner al pr ac ti ce, when ame ndme nt s ar e so ught , to sub mit those ame ndme nt s when,t he bil l has hAd seco nd re ad ing and ha s r;one to the Law Amendme nt Co nunitte e, or what eve r co mmi ttee ha s to de al. \.dt h it . That has been th e reg ular pr oc edur e . But our frie nds here follo wed two co urs�s of act ion . They v.rere not co nsi sten t in th e le ast .

They sh ould ei th er ha ve submi tte d al l thei r ame nd me nt s in on e way, or at le as t hav e let them al l .'::;o to the co mmi ttee . Now th en, we opp osed that par t icul ar sec tio n -- we opp os ed tha t acti on be ca use it v1ould be, and it would have been prone rly cons tr ued as a vot e of no n-c onf i de nc e in th e go vern ment , an d would have en ded in th e defe at of th e govermnent . Now, the polic y of our group wa s outl in ed by our lead e r, on the 16t h of June, I th ink it was, in th e te le vis ion broad cas t that was mAd e im med iat el y aft er th e elect ion.

And th at is the polic y of our mov e me nt as a whole, not th e polic y th at he cr eate d at th at

part icu� lar momen t . That we ·will at al l ti me s Sl.Jpport good leg isl at ion , no mat ter who int roduc es it , and we �Hill oop os e th e le gis lat ion \r,rhic h v1e th ink is not go od . And th at br ings us again to th is par t icular si tu at ion . Her e we .. had four m,.,,ior piec es of le gis lat ion, whic h ''1ere almos t in th e nature of eme rgency le gis lat io n. If we had gone along vri t h our 5

l'-1r. SVJAILES (continued ) fri ends on th at particula r vo te, or in the other vo te that took place this afternoon, fi rst of all there would have been no pro gram of Public \"Jorks instituted in order to provid e employment for thos e who are now unemploy ed . And we certai nly would not have had any support from the labour groups or from th e unempl oyed themselves if we had gone along with that. particular course of action. The second was, th e matter of the deve lopment, - of an in dustrial dev elopment fu nd. If the gove rnment had been def eated then that particular pron:ram would have been delayed.

If the gove rnment had been defeated the matter of credit for farmers would have been delayed , and th e matter of improvemen t s to the educational system, - all those would have been delayed . To our mind, althoug h they were not perfect by any means , there "''as room for qu ite a, and th ere is still room for quit e a degree of imnroveme nt. Yet , those bills on the wh ole , were good legisla tion, and as good legislation we were going to support it . We intended to support it , and we 'll sunport any good legislati on, no matter from which sourc e it comes .

Now th e , both the Honourable the First Minister and the member for Car ill on, sugge sted and said , that it wa s the duty of the Oppo sitio n to oppose, pe riod . I say that is not the wh ole duty of the Onnosition. The du ty of the O pposition· is to make suggestions; to suggest alternatives ; to suggest improvemen t s as well as to onpose legislation whic h the y consider to be bad. And then I come to th is point , the final point, where we were told that th e duty of th e Opposition is to onPose. The duty of the Opposition is to oppose.

Vv·e 've had four bills before us, four bi lls , some of wh ich hav e been very intensivel y criticize d and yet the off icial Onp.osition has not opposed th em . T hey hav e agreed to th em. I think the vot e is practically unanimous and now th ey are gone to the Amendme nts Committ ee, and th ey are going to beco me , well there mRy be sugge stions for amendments ther e , wh ich would of cour se be the proner place for the amendments. But the Onposition did not onoose th em. And now, I want to come to a matter whic h ·v;as dealt with a little by th e leader of pur group when he answe�ed th e debate. ,t.;iR. E.

GUTTO!Uv1SON ( St . George ) : Mr . Sneaker, may I as k th e honourable member a que stion? Is your leader th e First Minister? MR. S\,AIL ES: Not yet , but he will be ••.•. The leader of our group spok e on the matter of natu ral gas� And th is is one of the responsibiliti es of a Provin cial Gover nment to assure th at the natural resourc es of the provinc e are extr acted and devel oned to the best advan tage , to the best advanta ge , of th e peonle of this provinc e.

Now, some six or seve n years ago , and I giv e fu ll credit to the Campbell Gov ernment for this , - the citiz ens of VVinnipeg were give n the onportunity, under what is known as th e terms of Plan C, to pur chase the existing gas distribut ion--th e gas manufactu re and distribut ion plant that existed at that time fnr about a mill ion dollars . And it was du e largely to th e camnaign th at "�-'1as carried on by the Winnipeg Free Press, assited ve ry energetic ally by a prominent member of the Conservat ive Partv, but the citi zen s of Winnine g tu rned down that particular plan. 6

Hr. Sl:vAILES (c ont in ued ) Now, on ly ju st recen tl y, th e govern ment has had an exc elle nt onp ortu nity of do ing a public se rv ic e . v�hen th e report of the Gas Dis tri but ion Commission was made , th ey had th e oppor tuni t y to rul e that th is gas distr ibut ion shou ld be co me a publi c ut il ity , an d as su ch, th e distri but ion of nat ur al ga.s would tak e pla c� ov er as wid e an area of Great er Winnipeg as po s sible , in th e ear lies t po ssi ble ti me , and at th e lo west po ssible cost . But the go vern men t go ofed on thi s

part icul ar oPDort un it y. The govern me nt we re not th� only ones who goofed in c iden ta lly , be caus e th e Winnipeg an d Cen tr al Gas Compa ny , al so mad e a very bad mista ke when the y tried to se t the rat es so hig h tha t the y would re cup , -- tha t th ey would re cover th e money that th ey had lo st in th e prece edin g thr ee or four yea rs , ov er a perio d of so me thing like 15 years 1 ti me.. They se t thei r pr ic es so hi gh that ther e was a publi c prot es t. The publ ic pr oteste d ag ai nst the pri ce of $1.12 a thousand feet.

They went to the Public Utili ty Board and th e Public Ut il it y Board reco mmen ded 1.0 3 ce nt s a th ousan d feet . We ll , ev en th at was a pre tty good pri ce, as one or two othe r co mpa nies th ought , so th ey di cke red with the out lyin g munic ipali ties and it looke d for a time as th ough we might hav e two or three compa nies la ying their gas li ne s dow n the same street s, tr ying to se rve the sa me peopl e .

So, as a resu lt of the con fus ion that exist ed ,'a com mis si on was apPo in te d an d th e evi den ce of th e en gin ee rs , and these ar e, I take it , are ve ry competen t me n, the eng ine ers of one of th ese co mpanies � gave a co mplet e br eakdo wn of fi gures , sho win g that within fi ve years the ga s co uld be di stri but ed to th e peop le in Gr eat er Win nipeg at aro und 75 ce nt s a th ous and sq uare feet . Now th at's quite a bi g differen ce fro m the or igin al $ 1.12, an d quit e a bit belo w the maximum fi gur e that was re commen ded by th e co mmi ss ion .

And I want to po in t out thi s, that the fi gur e re pre sen te d, submit te d by the co mmi ss ion was a maxi mum fig ure, th at th e pric e sh ould not exc ee d an av erage of 90 cen ts a thousan d square fe et. They gave no fig ures an d gave no co mmen t on the po ss ibi lity of se ll ing the ga s at a lo wer rate.

But the fi gur es that were sub mitted by th e othe r two co mpan ies , the y cor re sp on de d in no smal l mea sure wi th th e fi gures that had been su bmitte d by the Publ ic Ut ili ty Board an d by th e Win ni peg and Ce ntral Gas Company it se lf , the refore , we can co nclude that th ey were pr etty ac curat e.

And as a re sult of this ac ti on of th e govern me nt in giv in g the gr ee n li ght to a pr ivat e company , which , to al l in ten ts an d purposes was a ba nkrupt co mpany, is goin g to re sult in the pe oPl e of Great er Vvinnip eg pay in g out be tween one an d two mi ll ion dolla r s a year mor e.than the y ne ed pay out for th ei r natural gas . And that 's the ki nd of mis ta ke, I th in k, -vrh.ich is a fatal mi st ake on the part of the gov ern men t . Well then , we co me to so me thi ng el se . The govern men t her e gave it s sol e support to a privat ely owned mono po ly .

A Pri vately owne.d monopoly whose ma jo r purpo se , of cou rse , is th e makin g of profit out of th e dis tri but ion of .natural gas . \•'iell th en , ju st a short ti me lat er , ·we· had a st ate men t from the Fir st Mini ster in v1h ich he re c ommended th e cour se of action that would le ad to the tr ipl ing and perhaps the des tr uct io n of a public util ity which 7

Mr. Sv 'iAILES ( continued) has pe rfor med a really remark able servic e for th e people of Canada . And I refer to th e Trans Canada Airlines. And her e's a pub lic ut ility whic h has give n more effic ient ,servic e, has been mo re progressiv e and more ef fic ient , particularly with res pect to pub lic safety perhaps than any oth er airline in th e wh ole world . Now the T.C.A . ha s been something like th e C. B. C . As you know, the C. B.C . extended a telev ision servic e to the v.ridest possible ar ea of Canada .

Cove ring Canada with TV servic e in such a way as it never wou ld have been cov ered if ·v1e had depended only upo n those who wer e seek ing adv e rtising reven ue . And in exactly the same way, the T. C.A. - the Trans Canada Airlines - ha s ser Viced a big

section of th e po pulation of Canada where the volu me of traffic wa s too low to allow for profi table operation. Now Trans Canada Airl ines operates a trans-co nti nental, a trans Atlant ic and southern air rou tes . On th ese three rout es, that is the trans-A tlantic, the trans-c ontinental and th e souther n lines, T.C .A . made a profit of 9.4 mi llion dollar s in 1957. But on th e other hand, T. C. A. lost 8.3 mi llion dollars on the shorter rout es, including thi s prairie region becaus e they wer e giv ing servic e which was �ot profitable.

The shorter rout es were, to some ex tent) subsidiz ed by those long and more profitable rout es and to some extent, of cou rse, by th e people of Canada . I just want toquot e brief ly from the Wh eatcroft Report . It says, 11th e general consensus of th ese views is th at T.C .A . dom est ic servic es are operating at a· standard of oP erating arid selling effi ciency which compares favor irably with airlines in other part s of the world inclu ding the United State s. Trans Canada Airlines cost for the wh ole system are 17% lower than thos e of the Canad ian Pacific Airlines.

And the cost of international servic es are virt ually identical". Th is comparison does not give muc h suP Port to th e suggestion th at T.C .A. working wit hin the same co st envir onment as Canadian Pacific Airlines is ineffi cient . And th at air transport costs in Canada would be muc h lower under comp etitive conditions. For short and me dium ran�e operations, one can go furt her and say, that Trans Canada Airlines have been leaders in techni cal progr ess. They were th e first airline in North Ameri can to introduc e turbine power ed aircraft .

And with the "Viscount " they have set a standard on dome stic and trans- border rout es wh ich ha s unquesti onably been some years ahead of the rest o:f th e industry. There 's no indication th at T. C.A. is resting on its laur els . Future plans show that T. C.A . is proposing progre ssive imProve ment s in the dome stic servic e pattern and, incidentally, demon strate the comnrehe nsive nature of the airlines forward planning. In gene ral, th e equi pment us ed and planned by T.C.A . is equal or superior to th at operated by comnarable airlines. T. C.

A. 's fut ur e plrtns envis age a rat e of tr affic gro "'.;th wh ich is gr eater thnn that envi saged and predicted by most airlines in. other part s of the world . And generally, Mr. Sneaker, this wh ole situation with res pect to Trans Canada Airlines ha s been misrenresented by the Pre ss and by the representati ve s of big busi ness. The true facts

Mr. S\lv'AILES (continued) have not been given generally to the public •. They've tried to picture T. C. A. as a monopolist ic ogre, gobbling up the air pa ss enger doll ars without giving proper service.. And the truth is that the T ... C. A. is giving us, good service at as lo w a cost as any airline in the world . And then T. C. A. has grown fa ster. From 1946 to 1957, T. C. A. increas ed its growth by 222%. Th e world 's growth has been 178%. Th e Unit ed States' growth ha s been 15 2%. T.

C.A. 's groV�rth has been fa ster than that in the United States desp ite the fac t thnt the traf fic potential of th e United State s carriers is far greater th an the potential avail abl e to T.C.A. And without comp etition, the growth of T. C. A. has been faster t h«� n world gro111 rth or with the U. S. grov1th. If competition wa s going to reduce fare s or improve service, surely the airlihe s oPe rating out of the city of New York where the traffic potential is the highest , surely th ere, we would have seen an improvement in service and a red uction in fares.

But as a matter of fac t, just the opposite ha s taken place. The cost s have increas ed because the overhead or the administration costs hnve been mul tiplied. They have had to aoply for increases in fares and the safety record has certainly not been as hi�h as that of 'l'.C. A. And even the Financial Pos t has this to say. ·rt sa ys "United States pas senger far es. have increased �/h:Lle' .the Can:>.dian pas sen ger fares ar e fal ling . Almo st all Unit�d Stat es domestic airlin e carriers ar e in financ ial diffi culty.

Und er the present situation, T.C.A. can offer the world's best equipment at lov•er cost to the us er than any United States carrier" . This is pretty strong stuff coming froni the Financial Post. And they go on to say this. " That this is a strong argument for sunno rters of the present sy stem of non -c ompetitive airline service". And yet the Honourable th e First Minister in his statement th e other day agreed with th e idea of competition. And I think the evi denc e has shown that such competition will have the effect of crippl ing the T. C.

A., and, without doubt , will h'1ve the effect of reducing that part of the service which is being given to th ose pRrts of Canada where air service is not partic ularly profitabl e. Now when the Honourable th e t,linister of Lab our introduc ed hi s bill the other day, h� exnres sed th e opinion that we were nearing the end of this period of reces sion.. And that there was an upturn in sight that the old stor:v of prosnerity ju st around the corner. But he didn't give any reasons for that particular optimism. And perhap s the prospect s, the economic prospects, are not quite as rosy as he made them out to be.

And, inc identally , there is no reas on at al l why in Can«�da with the n."ltural resources that we have, with the people that v1e have that we sho uld not hnve steadily increasin� prosp erity year by year - but every year as it comes along should show better results thnn the prece eding year. But this is just exactl y what the situation is at th P nresent time. And I don't want to be ac cus ed of being a ped dler of gl oom but still we have to look these facts in the fa ce.

Our exnorts ar e down more th1'1 n 6:;g; retail sa les ar e down; car loadings -a nd that 's one of the mo st important indica tors of economic progress - car loadings ar e down; whole sal e sales are dovm; the sales of new automobil es are dn"'m� industrial product- 9

Mr. S\',1\IL.SS (c ontinued) lon is dovm � and unemol oyment is un . So that I think it's safe to say this , that if there is an upturn ev ident , th at it's going to be a slow process and we have to be very careful to make sure that we take th e rivht cours es of action. Pro fessor Curry, a fo rmer gove rnment economist, and a lecturer in political ec onomy at the Univer sity of Toronto, just the other day, I th ink it was Friday or Satur day, submitted ev i dence to the Air Transport Board in this Trans Canada Airlines case.

And he said th is: "The ge npral bu siness out look is more cloud ed now than it was five years ago . And a large deficit , and as a matter of fact, a ve ry large defi cit is forecast in the federn.l budg et . A.nyone would be foolish to ipnore such facts as unemployment reaching about 5% of our v-wrking force - a slight decline in the rate of capital exnansion in such soft spot s as the text ile indu stry, agri cu lture and base metal mines. Just about a year ag o, last October , th e Canadian Labour Conr�ress made its submission to the Diefenbak er Goverm nent.

I think I mentioned this in th e last session, bu t '�·e did recommend that a number of steps should be take n in order to sten up th is progress out of the recession toward a period of gr eater, greater prosperity. We sugge sted, and recomme nded th"'t consume r purcha s ing power be increAsed: old age nensions increased, family allow ances� unemployment insurance.

We also su�ge sted that public works programs should be planned years ahead, - that planning at this stage of the game is almost too late to be eff ective in the irmnedediately succeeding winter: recomm ended that in�ome taxes in th e lower br ackets should be reduc ed. And this is rather interesting, Mr . Speaker, th at fo r the man with :!�3,000 .0 0 a year, the mRrrie d man with no children and an income of �3,00 0. 00 a year, in the twent y year s between 19 37 and 19 57, his income tax has increased by 400 %.

But in th e same period of time, th e married man with ;Jilo, ooo. oo, a married man vvit h no children with n o, OOO. OO, his income tax has increased only 150% . So that tho se in th e lower income groups are being penaliz ed more thn.n tho se in the higher income area. Then the farm incomes need to be increased. MR . ROBLI N: Mr . Speaker, may I ask my ho nourable fr iend a que stion? Has he th e actu al amounts of th is income tax increase? That's an interesting point. Has he got th e actual amounts? MR . SvvAILES : I can supply the First Minister with the actual figure s.

I hn.ven 1t th em here bu t I'll supnly him with th em . Of course, then, ''-'e suggested the need fo r increasing farm income, narity prices and so on: and that farm surnlu ses should be sold to those countries which need th em regardless of the ex istenc e of any imaginary curtains, iron or otherwi se. That ther e should be exnanded aid to tho se cou ntries in a less favoured position. vve also recommended th at Can ada should recoramend the gnve rnment of Communist China; that China sl,ould be given a seat on th e United Nations.

And wh ile it is true th at the Federal Gov erm'lent h;,s the ma i or re sponsibility for directing anrl controlling and guiding the economy, it is quit e true also that the Prnvinc ial Gover nment also has quit e an area of re sponsibility . And you are going to get suggestions fr o m the labour gr oups 10

��. S�AILES (continued ) here that th e minimum wages in Manitoba be increased fr om 60 cents to ,pl. 25 an hour, for both men and women� th e maximum "'.rork week to be reduc ed to 40 hours or less in order to sPread the avai lable employment . That va catiom vdt h pay be lenr;thened and that workmen 1 s comp ensation benefit s be increased. And that th e p-,yments for ho spital servic e can be cu t down. All th ese th ings can be done and th ey all need to be done over and abov e v.rhatever arrangements may be . made with th e muni cipalities for the prov ision of winter employment.

And with respect to th e industr ial deve lopment fund, I "''ant to point out this: That no matter how many more indu stries are brou ght into being, unless th e product of th ose indu stries is shared equi tably among our people, we are still go ing to be faced with th ese possibili ties of recurring depre ssion, and �� are go ing to have unnecessary suf fer ing on the part of those who become emnloyed in those particular periods.

Now to the degre e that this gove rnment and th e gove rnment in Ot tawa adopt th e ideas and the polici es of economic democracy, of democratic gui dance and di rection of the economic processes and to th e degree th at we get av. .1ay from th e idea that th e Po ssess ion of goods is man's hig hest ambition, and we develo P th e philo sophy that "b eing" is of muc h gr eater importance tha n "having 11 then we can expect to mak e progre ss. ' Th ese are th e ideal s and principles behind the C.C.F. pro gram whi.c h wa s outlined by the leader of our group.

And th ese are th e fu ndamental ideals and principles of democ ratic social ism throughout the world . And again I vrant to say this in conclu sion, lvil'L K. ALEXANDER (Robli n): Jl.ir. Speaker, may I ask a que st ion? I admit I am a little bit on the dumb side but I would like to know whr�.t an economic demo cracy is, please. MlL SltiAILi::S: At th e present time , we have what is to all in tents and purPo ses economic anarchy. To all intents and purpo ses we have, at th e present time, in the industrial part of the world economic anarchy, th at means, every man for him self.

Every man for himself and the dev il take th e hind most. Grab as muc h as you can in the shortest possibl e time . Economic democr acy means this; that there wil l be gui danc e and direction over the expendi ture s, of topical expenditure s ov er th e devel oDment of tho se parts of our economy that need deve loning fo r the be nefit of th e greater number of peoole . That is what the economic democracy is .

And I say that to that extent·, to the extent that \·.re do carry out th ese ideas, and I might say th is that to th e ex tent that you take th e plans from th e platfor m of the c.c.r., to th at extent we 111 make something you ' re proud of and you are quit e "''el come to th ose plans. You're quit e ��lcome to introdu c e what ever legi slation you please, as long it. 1 s good legi slation along th ose parti cular lines . And I vrant to conclude, Ivir. S peaker, by sayini[, tllis� the Honourable the First £,Jinister indicated that 'liie v 'e re falling do"'m as an Onposition .

That it was our dntv to defeat the gove rmnent. Now th e first Minister doesn't h<'lVe to i;:ait to be defeated . The First Minister can do exactly a s Vr. Dief enba ker did. He can 11

��. S� AILE S (continued ) pretend to go some where else and bring in the Liartenant-Gov ernor and dissolve this Hou se. The First Minister can do that tomorrow, if he pleases, and I dare him to do it. MR. R. S. CLEMENT ( Birtle-Russell ) : Mr. Speaker, at the out set, may I congratulate you on being elected to th e ti�e- honoured position as Speaker of this le gislature. It hAs been my pleas ure, Sir, to have known you for some nine years, at least, that I have been a mel7lber of th is legislature.

And I recall in those early days when I vms a new member that you were one of the more friendly gentlemen who sor t of took me under their wing. And as one of the party whips of the coalitio n government, you were, Sir, one of the more friendl y, considerate and helpful members of the coal ition goYernment. And so with the many years of ex perience tha t you have had in this legislature, �.th your genial and likeable personality, I am su re you will serve this House as you have done in the last two weeks in the high office as Speak er in a very caoable manner. Mr.

Speaker, I would now like to congratulate the mover of the address in reply to the Speech of the Throne, the honourable member from Roblin, a neighbour of mine, who in his maiden speech I suggest gave an excellent address and I'm sure will con tribute his fa ir share to fu tu re debates in this le�islature. I, Sir, congratulate him. Mr. Sneaker, the seconder to the address in renly to the Speech from the Throne, the honourable me mber from St. Matthews is well known as a scholar and a gentleman, th at ha s be en pointed out. He likewise gave an excellent address and I like wise con gratulate him.

Now, Sir, I am de sirous of tvrning the spotlight of con grat ulations on the Honoura ble th e First Mini ster. Particul ar ly on the three counts th at have been mentioned by other members uo to now. Firstly, Sir, I congratulate him on his choice of an exce llen t and charming woman as his bride. Sec ondly, on his being elected to tl1e oosition in this legislature which he now holds, namely, as First Minister. Thir dly, Sir, I must congratu late him on the group of men he has chosen to fill his cabinet, and who have taken their position in the front benches of this government .

On his own admission to me, he has an excelle nt cabine t and uo-to-date I find no reason to particularly disagree with him. He has eight good-looking tsentlemen, he has ei)!ht distinguished looking gentlemen. I suggest tha t if they would all develop the smile that the Honour able Mini ster of Labour has, they might stay the re a lot longer tha n I th ink some of th em will. However, Sir, he has fnur ministers ·vv ho are le arned in the will , or v1hat is the technical term, "learned in the - - le arned in the la w".

The legal profession, I suggest are well represented in the front benches of the 11Roblin11 Government. He has, secondly, three men ''1ho have distinguis hed themselv es in the business wo rld. The bt,siness world is v·Jell looked after. He ha.s, as '"'ell, a very - \·veil, I would say the best looking member in the front benches - a member of the medical pr ofession and the y likewise ••... l,lr. Clement! l-U.. �OBLIN: Hear! Hear! l<J .• CLEMENT.: And not only is he good-lookin�:: but he 1 s a like- 12

abl e sort of a fello w, I think he ••• the First Minis ter wasn't so dumb when he picked out th e Ninister of Labour at one side and the Minister of Health at th e other becaus e .th ey are both good -l ooking and lik eable fello ws. Mr. Speaker, there are, however, two very important groups of our economy or society that, unfortunatel y in my opinion, have not been look ed af ter. And I point out, firstly, a repre s.entat ive of labour does not seem to be in the front bench es. A true representative of labour.

And, secondly, a true representative of the most important part of.our economy or the backbone of our economy, and it seems unfortunate to me, Sir , that the First Min ister has not seen fit to appoint a full-t ime grass- root farmer to hi s cabinet. MR. ROBLI N: Stick around a whil e. MR.. CLEtvlENT: I' m trying to help you, Sir, not criticize. Just wait a minute. It can be said that the honourable minister on his right is a farmer, rightly so! So am I a far mer. l-laybe one of the larg er farmer s in Manitoba, I don't qualify my self to say that I 'm a farmer.

The honourabl e member from th e old con stituency of Turtl e Mountain. I don't just recall the. new one, is an excell ent as set to any cabinet by his rightful position as Minister of Public Works, one that he is very famil;i_ar with, and I suggest that he should be nr1med the lvlinister of Public Works and Acting Minist er of Agriculture not vice versa. However, Sir, since the Honourabl e the First Minister has at least 'to my knowledge orie qualifi ed member, one 'gr as s- root' farmer at least in his back benche s, I suggest that maybe he will rectify that situation.

And I would say, Sir, th at probably had he been the Minister of Agriculture that bill No. $ would have been brought in with probabl y, shall we sa y, a lower inter est rate, not meaning to emphasize on it. At least th e man that I 'm thinking of' knows what it is, Sir, to have grain in his grB.n aries and not be abl e to sell it, and maybe have debts that he owes and not be abl e to pay th em. I suggest, the Honourabl e present Minister of Agricultur e if he ever did it, it has been a long time, has never had thos e probl ems. lvlR. \lviLLIS: You1r e qmil.te wrong again. MR. CL EMENTS: V.

Jell, I 1ve been wrong before and I' 11 be ��ong again. Anyway, that's my opinion. Now, Sir, th e Honourable the First Minister this aft ernoon got up and gave a - what I would call a bombastic and critica l addres s to the members of the Onposition this afternoon, and quite frankly, I don't think it fits the oc casion.

As Minister or Le ad er of the official Oopos ition, he gave many very impprtant add resses , good add resses criticizing th e Government as a whol e, but when it comes down to criticizing individual s, I don't think that suits his pattern and I sugges t that he change hi.s ways and that attitude. He nointed out facts about the Opposit ion , he said that th e orficial of the Opposition wouldn1t ·d efeat the Government but I sugge st today that at least the Onoosition smoked htm out - if that's not an unparliamentary word - and he gave an addr ess this aft ernoon that 13

Nr. CLEivlENTS (co ntinued) he didn 1t intend to giV'e until he came to the mclin s;Jeech -- main motion. Ho1·rever , Sir, be that as it may , he 1 s a lik�able fellow and I hold no grievance toward any one of them. I'm in the Onposition now which after nine years , I fi nd to be a mo st enjoyable exner ience, and I suggest to the honourab le members , th e new memb ers Particul arly, who have come into this legislature who sit in the Opposition that in nine years they will be far better politicians than I am , if they remain in the Onoosition than I am after being in the Government side for nine years .

Remember th at some of the men who are sitting acro ss there today . Unfortu nately, you will never be there for nine years so I woul dn't worry too much about that. Lastly, Sir , my sincere and hearty congratulati ons go to the 27 new membe rs , 27 new members v..rho were elected to this leg islature . Each and every one who has spoken up 'till now have delivered out standing addresses . I think that it shows a great deal of credit to th ose members in themselves , and I think they can be justly proud .

I sometimes - at least I never th ought the day would come when I felt like an old farmer but like the Honourable the Fir st Member I have only been here for nine years , and believe me there is only nine men in here who nave been here longer than we have . Boy! the mor tality rate is terrific . Remember that . And may I noint out a little word of wisdom that may hel p you stRy here a little longer .

Ivlay I point out , Sir, to th e new members , particularly , that politics as in other lines of endeav our , you will find 1 honesty is the best policy 1 • IvJaintain good relationship and you wil l in turn receive th e public confidence. And now, Mr. Speaker , th e Throre Speech debate is one time in this legislature , when every member has his opportunit y to stand up and speak about whichever he so desires . It 's pretty hard to get afoul of the law, Mr . Speaker , when you' re speaking on the throne debate, and so you can wander far and wide .

I, Sir , at· this time , intend to confine my remarks , as far as possible at least, to the desires , th e problems , the geogra phic location of the constituency which I have the honour to represent, namely the constituency of Birt le-Rus sell. But bef ore Sir , embarkin� on a little talk about the, I think one of th e better constituencies , I'm not going to say that it is the best. One or two other members in this legislature have stood uo and said th ey had the best , or represented the best constituency in Manitoba. That , of cours e, is only in their own person�l opinion.

But , befor e sneaking to my constituency I can't help, about my constituem:y , I can't help but point out a word or two that the Honourable and likeable mem ber fr om Assiniboia, and I mig ht say, very quick at thinking , spoke out tonight . He said with regard to the fr ustrations of the offi cial opposition, shm-ving through their negligees. Mr . Speaker , if last Friday night they hRd any negligee on at all it was transparent. I'll agree , I th ink the Honourable Member is a very capable speaker but he is only part of the opposition. In fact , I don't think he is opposition at all , he is coalition.

The years that I was in this House the coalition always played 14

tl.1.r. CLEMENT (continued) around with that side, and quite frankly I think it is still there. I want, lvlr. Speaker, to get back to my own co nstituency, to publicly thank the constituents of Birtle for their support and in so doing honouring me by electing me as their member of this legislature. The First Minister pointed�out th�s afternoon that· that was one of the.highest honours a member of this legis lature could obtain, and I agree with him.

I also agree that any me:tnber who enters this legislature and does not do as his conscience tells him he should do, and does not do what he thinks is ri�ht for his constitu ency, should either go over and sit with the Honourable 1vlember from Logan or resign comnletely. · And quite frankly, the honourable member from Logan is not always wrong but he is not always right. And so, my years in this legislature, as many of you know; eight years was spent as more or less an independent, not really down to the basic lines.

I was elected as an independent, support ing coalition in 1949; an independent supporting the honourable member from Lakeside in 195 3 ; and in thi s last election as an honourable member supporting the Liberal Government under his leadership. And, if anybody wonders why, I'll tell you why. Because, I think the Honourable Member, and history'will prove it some day, that never has there been a more honest, sincere and man who is desirous of serving his community than Douglas L. Campbell·. I am stepping off the rules there, mentioning the man 1 s name, but Mr. Speaker, that is so and I think you'll agree with it.

Now, Sir, I want particularly to thank the mnny men and women in my constituency who on my behalf during the election , men and women of our organization who, knowing there was some un certainty as to my health -- one wouldn't think to look at it now but it is well knovm to many of you - that at least according to the doctors, I was quite ill some months ago; at least these men and women shouldered the extra burden that normally I would have carried in the pnst election.

And I am quite proud of the fact that I was elected, and that in the old Russell c<imstituency, the Honourable First Minister and his party only had the majority in one Doll in that whole constituency. The new constituency, I am not condemning them, I haven't had an onportunity to show my ability and if, at the next election, I haven't been able to show that I am their representative - to do what they want to the best of my ability, then I will retire gracefully defeated.

If that may be the case, and the choice of the neople, know ing that I have at least served for nine years; it is taken for granted the election will be sometime within the.next six months, maybe the coalition will stay toge ther and that 'Vmn 1 t happen, but if it does happen, I can retire to -w ell, maybe I'm fortunate, I can ret ire to one of many places and not have to wo rry too much, at leas t I think, and I have often SRid to my friends, that I think any man who is successful in business or farming or any other endeavour, owes to his constituency or his district, a cer tain amount.

Vvhy was he successful, because the peoPle dealt with him, and in my case, we operate quite a larg-e business or business es, should I say, that is well known. I have endeavoured to serve 15

Mr . CLEiv!ENT ( continued ) them. I have never been on the town counci l , I hav e nev er been on the school board , I entered th is legislatu re some nine years ago as green as any memb er in this legislature ever entered it , and many of you remember the maiden speech I made in thi s legis lature and -- th ere 's a time and place for ev erythin� and I gu ess that �asn 1t the time or the place. You know , Don6v an, if I didn 't like you so mu ch , I wou ld .

Anyway , Sir , the constituency of Birtle -Russe ll is geograph ically situat ed to th e extr eme northest central part of the prov ince, bordered on the west by Saskatchewan, to th e north by the Riding Mountain National Park. It is rather large in area ; it is corrmri sed of ll to·wn, vi llAges, five large municip alities, plus a local Gov ernme nt district , or commonly known as an unorgan iz ed territory of two and a half townships. As well , in the Birtle -Rus sell constituency, th ere are two India n Reserv ations, one mainly the l:vawasecappa India n res erv ation.

It is rather large one; it has two public schools, with a large residential and high school situat ed in th e Tov m of Birtle . In recent years many mil es of excellent· bui lt-up�g rav el road hav e been constru cted , new homes for th e Ind ians who live on that Reserv ation have been erected, and hundreds of acres of good farm land br oken up . I would simply like , Sir , to congrt:ttulat e Lyn MacKay , a good Indian name, and his counsellor, for the construc tive and intelligent manner in whic h th ey hav e gove rned th eir l�eserv ation. Mr .

Speaker , as a result of the recent redistribut ion bill , it is commo n knowledge that th e constitu ency boundaries hav e been altered considerably in most constituencies and I sugge st , Sir , the one I renresent is no excention. Two compl ete munic ip alities, namely Ellis municipality and Birtle munic ipality, were added to the old constituency. Several towns such as the town of Birtle , the vi llages of St . Laza re, Foxwarr en and Solsgirth wer e also added . Th e tov1rn of Bir tle , Mr . Sneaker , is o.ne of th e older towns in ou r provinc e, particul arly in th e northwestern part .

It is beaut ifu lly located in the Birdtail va lley, a very busy centre serving quit e a large area . Bo;01stinp;, and right ly so , a beauti ful park on the shores of a lovely artific ial lake that has been made by damming th e Birdtail Rive r. It hAs several cottages, ideal picnic grounds, and all the necessary facil ities for ov er night gu ests and trav ellers, wh ich was made possible th is l"lst summer by a generous grant from the Department of Pu blic \'iorks. It is one of the v1a yside parks th at are becoming so famil iar along our highvmys today .

Birtle aslo boasts a beaut iful nine hole golf cours e which is on the shores of th is lov ely lake , and it attracts many golfers for mil es ar ound , and I woul d suggest , Sir , under the careful gui danc e of His \\orshin :Mayor Pr att, a man ·1Mho is well known by the older members of this leg islature , as he at one time represented the old Birtle con stituency as a memb er of this legis lature. �� . Sneaker , I mentioned earlier Birtle is ideally situ at ed in the beautiful Birdtail Valley , at the junctions of Highway 83 and th e old No. 4. It is, Sir , on th is point that I respectively 16

lV.tr. CLEHENT (c o ntinued) as k th e 1--linister of· Public vvork s to gi ve serio us co n sidera tio n to ward s building un the ol f No . 4 hi gh\oray fro m Birtle to Shoa l La ke, an d to wards the st and ar d , \·Ji th a dust pro of surface on the to p. During t.he la st el ectio n I was gi ven a so lemn pledg e, by the then Mi nister of Publi c �o rks , that this work would be do ne .

Up to now I have no rea so n to sugges t that the pr esent Minister of Publ ic �o rks ha s al tered an y pla ns or an y pro mises tha t were made by that Go vernment and I would sugge st tha t, or ho pefully suggest, or as k that thi s ro ad be rebuilt to th e sta nda rd so desired in his pro gram of 19 59 .

I hop e maybe, as he mentio ned this afte rno on, that certa in projects of ne xt yea r s pro gram wil l be br ought out, and I1m loo king forw ard ho pefully that th is wil l be one of them . v>iell, I do n't kno w if it will ge t out in the winter or no t, as lo ng as its out next summ er an d next winter, tha t' s al l the people desire, as long as its built.

If th e Hon o urabl e Minister thi nk s it sh ouldn't be built, then I'l l as k the Hono urable, the First lvlinister and I hone between th e two of them that I can get so mething fro m th em to th e effect that it will be do ne in the no t to o distant future . I might po int out , Si r, that it is of great imno rta nce to the to wn of Birtle , as it is commo nly kno wn, many of the mail ro utes to day ar e-- -t he mail is bei ng distributed by trucks.

His �ajesty 1s mail" tr uck al rea dy ha s bypa ssed Birtle , do es no t go in to Birtl e, due to the fact that th e new number hi ghwa y bypa sses to th e no rth some six or seven mil es , an d the tra in service is no t good in Birtle , an d if we ha ppen to hav e on e of the ol d fash ioned winters tha t everyo ne in this leg is la ture has seen in hi s day , th ere is some doubt as to wheth er buses will be abl e to serve th e tow n an d tha t I do hope this highway will be built.

Novr, while on the subject of highway s, Si r, I feel I sh ould repo rt that at la st, paving ha s sta rted on th e present No . 4 and 83 hi ghways from Russell to Fo xv-.rarren . I hai{f! had many peo ple come to me with criticism ab out the progress of this ro� d, tha t I do no t inten d to bring fo rward to nigh t; rightly or \'Jrongly , it seems unfortunate that due to previous commi tmen ts , the co mpany who received the co ntr act fo r hard- surfacing this road , has been he ld up by th e Federa l Go vern me nt .

H ow ever, be that as it may, they have no w sta rted, thnt was a week ago tha t I was l�st ov er the Highway, an d I kno w that if th is present weather, unseaso nable weather co ntinues , it is hope d that the mAjo rity of th is ro <1d at le as t will be paved . No w, Si r, while on th is sn ee ch -- th is subject of hi FThways as well , I sh ould reo or t, or I am desiro us of than k ing the Hon oura ble Minister ; it ' s no t al l critica l, I beli eve credit is due to thos e who were desiro us.

I do want to than k the Ho no urable, the Minister of Public \01or ks or the De nuty , th e Ac ti ng �:linister of Public vv·orks an d hi s depa rtment , fo r fulfilling the fo rmer Go ver nment 's ple dge to make extensive exc ava ting an d repa iring ·t o the main · streets of Ro ssburn . Thi s is now nearly completed, an d with a bitumino us mat to be la id ne xt So ring the tm m of Ro ssburn will have a mai n stre et to be pro ud of. Now the re as on, J:vir. Sne a ker, fo r mentio ning this - and th is is ma ybe ge tting a little pe rso na l but I think it is my one po int fo r brint';i ng it out. 17

Mr. CLEMENT (c o ntinued) The ed it or of the local news pap er , the Ro ssb urn Rev ie w, an ex cell en t rural news paper, fe lt he sh ould make an issue of thi s pr oj ect , and the tak ing ov er by the Gove rnme nt of the old . hi ghway, co mmonl y known as the "T urkey Tr ai l", the ro ad fro m Erickson thro ugh to Sa nd y La ke , Oa kburn, Ro ss ubrn, Angusv il le, Russ el l .

La st s umm er , or la st Spring he felt tha t he should m�ke an issue of it and Sir, right l y or wro ngl y, whate ver hi s re asons were , and many I know, an d many who ca me to me , felt rig htl y or wron gl y, that he ha d an ulte ri or mo tive . I, Sir, do no t sugge st he ha d any ult er ior moti ve . Mr.

Ayl win 's re sp ons ib il it y ·t o the li ttl e tow n---or the li ttl e-- -t he town of Ro ssb urn and di st ric t, in hi s dual ca pac it y as a news paper man and a town counc illo r, sh ould , I sugge st , be that they are , Sir, the sam e as mine, na mely; to se rve honest ly , to ser ve fa it hfully , and in: the in te rest s of ev e_ry cit iz en re gard less of his or her pol it ical af f il iat ion . I am sure he do es, and as a pri v at e member of this legis lat ure, I fe el my re co rd in that re gard is cl ear .

If th e time com es when members of the Bir tle -R uss ell co nst it uenc y th ink that I have be en unfait hful or in any wa y de trime nt al to the pro gre ss or adv ance of tha t co nst it uenc y, as I poin te d out ear lier on, that will be the ir choi ce . Und oubtedly, ther e wi ll be anot her elect ion be fore to o lo ng .

If I am appo int ed or nom in at ed as cand idat e, an d if I am defe at ed, which, as I uointe d out ear li er on, Mr. spe a ker, there is only nin e members her e wit h mor e than nine years se nior it y, a�ythin g can haupen, and if that do es ha np en, and I do n't think i·t wi ll, I shall re si gn or retir e wi th the knowl ed ge that I, in my own mind and my own hear t, an d af te r all tha t is what is im nor tan t in po li ti cs as in any ot her public li fe , I wi ll retir e knowi ng that at least , to the be st of my ab il it y, I se rve d that co nst it uenc y.

At any rate , Sir, I hav e no in te nt ion of ra isi ng the quest ion any more , of ·who should rec eiv e the cr ed it for thi s ac com pl is hment. Th e import ant poi nt, Sir, is this. The ol d Turke y Trail is no'ltl.r public hig hway #1+5 . The main st re et of Ro ss burn ha s be en rep ai re d and will .b e hard - surfaced ne xt Sprin g. To me that is what ·i s mo st impor ta nt.

I am sure to co n st it uents, the co nst it uen ts of Ro ssb urn, that is mo re impo rta nt, and if the honoura bl e ind iv idual , who m'lde quite a po int of this in his news paper , is en ti tled to cr e dit, may the cr ed it go to him if he de ser v es . If he go t the hi ghway, or go t the ro ad fi xe d, was the re aso n fo r it , then I go al ong wit h him. Maybe we bo th de se rve a li ttl e cr ed it. I do n't know, but the roa d is ther e and tha t is what 's impo rta nt. And, as fa r as I'm co nc er ne d, th e bo ok is closed and wi ll no t be re opened unless by sd me ot her pers on fir s t.

I woul d po int out, Mr. Snea ker, at this ti me I th ink, in fa ir ne ss to som e who cr it ic iz ed maybe , the wa y I vo te d the ot her nig ht, I am not a Soc ial ist. r think that every member in th is le gisl at ure who knov-s me. per son ally , k nows that I am not a Soc ial ist , but I am also a man who is pre pa re d to go alon g with tha t ther e ar e go od and bad in ev er y pa rty.

Th ere is good and ba d acr oss the wa y and ther e is go od and bad her e 9-nd th ere is also an el ement, of go od in wha t our fri end s here say . :T hey ar e all ele ct ed member s of this legisl at ure, and if they wer en 't hon e st and sin ce re they woul dn't be elect ed , and if af te r getti ng elec ted , th ey are not hon est and sin 6er e, they wo n 't remain ele ct ed ve ry lon g. And so , Sir, as an 18

Mr • CLE MENT (conti nued) indi vi dual who is a member fr om a ve ry, ve ry an d I thin k one or the best agri cultural ar eas in Man it oba , one that is fa mous for what ev er bra nc h of agric ulture you want to sp ea k ab out. If yo u want to sp eak about ca ttl e, the re are many name s th at are ve ry fami li ar to anyb ody who is in the ca ttle busin ess , such na mes as Dunn, Gl ac eman, Coulte r, 1Nhit ti conib, and there ar e many mor e who are well kn own at the Brandon �in te r Fa ir and at th e Tor onto Roy al.

The y have made famous -- so mebo dy says Cl emen t , well , I do n't say we 1 re fa mous in th e ca ttl e busin ess - we have cat tle and �p,re have fa rms and we have seed grain as well. I F. m not sugge s tin g that I am pa t ting mys elf on the bac k in that direc tio n - that is not so but we do have men who are -- an d we ll kn own in the seed grain bus in ess to o, if we wa nt to go in to th at , a fe llm ,T by th e name of Jo e Murra y who is one of the mos t va lue d seed grain men in the Domini on -of C� na da , n6 t onl y th e Pr ovince of Man itob a.

We have Geor ge McCr in dle , the Gra ham br oth ers , and th ere are many more. Tha t is not my inte nti on to brin g out all th ose name s, bec ause onc e yo u' ve st art ed nAme s why the re 's no en ding in the cons ti tuen cy that I reo resen t. Th ere are many . But, Sir , bef or e le av in g, not to get ahea d of myse lf, th ere is one ot her poin t ab out highwa ys that I do vmnt to mention. One other req uest tha t I have from th e Honoura bl e Member , th e Mini st er of Public Works .

I kno w he is not try in g to hid e hi s fa ce , he might be gett in g tired of li st en in g to me , but be pat ien t , I wo n1.t be lo ng , Sir. I'v e list en e d to him make so me marv ell ous sneec hes in my day, an d the y wer en't all in th is legis lat ure . ��. ROBL IN : Ca rry on ! Ca rr y on ! MR . CLEMENT: . Thank you. I want to ask , if th at is the wo rd, in si mple Engl ish I sunpose it is. I fe el that the cont inued pav ing of No . 4 an d 83 highways fr om Foxw arren to Shoal Lake sh ould be on ne xt year 's pro gram.

It is the lP st li nk, the final lin k, in th e pa ving of No . 4 highway which st art s on No . 1 '-"Test of Po rt ag e, st raigh t thro ugh alm os t to the Saska t che wan bo undary , an d I would ho pe that he would see fit , to have this ro ad hard surf ac ed ne xt year . I want to say , Sir , an d I could spea k on for so me cons id er able le ngt h of ti me about the cos mopol it an an d I believ e that i� the "''or d, con st ituency of Russe ll , Birt le- 'l usse ll . I could say much about th e en terp ris in g vi llag e of St.

La za re an d it s unique water work in stall ati on , in st alle d wit h governm en t assi st ance , or go vernment lo an, plus I mi ght say th e de sire ·fo r th is pr e do minan tly Fr e nch-Ca na dian set tlem en t , to have a li quor outle t, an d I would re spec tf ully ask th e Honourab le , the Att orne y- Gen eral , tha t if th is has been re comm en ded, if it is re commen de d, that he giv e it cons iderat io n. · I could sneak at len gt h abo ut Fo x1varren and di st ric t of the wor k that has bee n do ne on the ma in st ree t of Foxv .rarren, vd th assis tan ce fr om th e Deo ar tment of Public �arks .

Much could be said about that fa rmi ng di stri ct , it is a ve ry impor tan t one , in cl uding th e di stric t of So lsg irt h, whic h is to th e east . Iviuch could be said ab out th e to vm of :<.us sell , an d that ''.1ill come with 19

Mr. CLEMENT (c ontinued ) time . But , one imnortant point that I would and desire, to br ing out about the town, or the district of �ussell , Ivlr. Speaker , is that west of Ru ssell , some 7 miles , is the site of the huge Ru ssell dam , which has been suggested for years , this dam would build up a head of water and back it up for some fifty to sixty mi les � it would create a huge reservoir of water that in time of drought would assure a supply of water for th e larger centres and, Sir , in time of fl ood woUld serve as a safeguard .

There is a �oyal Commis sion that has been set up to inve stigate the benefit cost study -o f floo d contra�. I suggest that if this d8m wa s built and ·p ersonally , I think it should be. I moved to �u ssell in 19 36 and shortly after then surv eyors made tests, and on and off , ever since then th is locality has been checked over for th e possibility of buil ding a dam. I think it has been definitely agr eed that such a dam could be buil t there. I th ink that it would create a terrif ic water shed 1nrhich would be av ailable for fl ood control right down the Assiniboine Valley , including to Winnipeg .

It defi'nitely woul d be an asset to the city of Brandon, both in time of flood and in time of drough t . Likewise, to the city of Portage la Prairie , and I daresay to a lesser degree , to the metrq.nli tan city of Winnipeg.

It would be a great water reservoir as I mentioned, and last sunrrner -- th is past summer as is commonly known, it 1nras very dry and along with rry brot her , we happen to have quit e a large ranch in the Assiniboine Valley , wh ich is south of this proposed site of this dam, and quit e frankly it is incon ceiv able to point out the small trickle of ,.vater that went down that great river , th e Assiniboine Riv er , th is summer . vvhy , you could walk across it with a pair of rub ber boots, wit hout any diffi cul ty at all, in many localities .

I suggest, wit h deference to th e Honourable Minister from Minnedore, wh en he pointed th is afternoon ab out a dam to be bu ilt , I am not just sure wher e it was, transferring th e water fr om there into the Boyne River . If he did that this summer the Assiniboine River would stop because there wasn't enough 'lfttater from where I am to go over to the Boyne �iver , never mind keep the Assir.froine going .

And, many years th at mi.L>:ht be true, but this year I think that grave concern, the�e was great concern in the city of Brandon, and in the city of Portage la Prairie , about the water supply in the Assiniboi ne Riv er . As far as Brandon is concerned, J'vianitoba Govern ment , the :Manitoba Power CommiS $iOn have a very ext ensive hydro electric plant whic h is very dependent on water.· \\·ater from this d0m would assure constant supply.

I t may be, in years to c�me , that irrigat ion may be a problem , :t=:articul arly in th e flat lands of the Assin iboine va lley , and believe me , it d.oes flatten out when you go south of Rus sell a few miles.

But a dam of this size would be important, it would be of tremendous magnitude, and I am sure th at it wou ld benefit Manitoba as a wh ole, and standing here I am con vinced that sooner or later some day that dam will take its place, and , I only hope that if it is v.'ithi n the power of th e present Gove rnment to hasten it on, that it vd ll take its place . \·.,ell nov1, that ' 13 enough about the darn . I do not intend to make any more of an issue of it , and I do not continue to say much more about the beautiful constituency of Birtle-R us sell . 20

1v1r. CLE HE NT (c ont in ued ) lvir. Spea ker , the--- should I say, th e I:J.emb ers of th e c.c.F. part y, or the min ori t y me mb er of th e Coa l it ion Gover nment will see to it th at we ar e go .in p: to be here for so me ti me , an d un dou bt edly I' ll hav e an opportunity to sa y a fe w word s abou t it ag ai n, wi thin not too ma ny mont hs . Th ere is evi den ce, an d if the Ho nourabl e, the Fi rst Mini ste r as he got UP this aft ern oon, in his very bo mbast ic speec h of jus ti ce , that the op posi ti on should force hi m to go back to the electo ra te .

Qu it e fran kly I would have no person al object ion what so ever , if he was· su ccess ful in what he su gge ste d . I am pr epared at any ti me , and if I don 't get electe d as I poin ted out be fo re , I' ll ret ire gra ce fully , kn owing that I at le ast in my own op inion hnve do ne my sha re . But if he has co nvinc ed , and I don 't thin k he should hav e mad e that spe ech this aft ern oon wi th out , at leas t , th e le ad er of the C.C.F. gr oup in his seat . However , be th at as it may , it wasn 't his fault .

If th ey do deci de to co me alon g with the off ic ial opposi tion, pers onally, I'l l welc ome you . The Hon ourabl e Member fro m Ra disson, a per son al frie nd , he is al ways ag re eab le . In fact , the oth er day he in vit ed me to co me in to his ca ucus , aft er stan din g up her e- -- I gue ss I can 't speak Ukra inian , so I gue ss I'l l not at t empt it but I co uld say a word or tv!O , en ough tha t would put you in your pla ce .

There is evi denc e, Sir , th at if we do go bnck to the elect orate immediat ely , th e Hon our ab le First Mi ni st er mu st re memb er there ar e sig ns th at th e public th in kin g ha s be en resto re d to wards the Liberal party, an d th at the coa ttails of the Ho nourabl e Jo hn Dief enbaker are get t ing pr etty short .

In fa ct , he is so me where on the ot her si de of the world now , and I mi ght su gges t to the Ho nourab l e Fi r st Mini st er th at he or any of his ca binet min iste rs pr opose a trip li ke th at th ey sho uld get it over with in a hurry, beca us e they ma y hav e to pAy for it , if they ar e here much lon ger . Sir , what ha ppen ed ye st er day ha s pa sse d . I- --take me liter al ly, Sir , I wa sn 't meani ng to be ru de . You 1r e go ing to say 'I' m sur e gl ad to hear th at ' --- You co uld be just ified in taking, at least , a seco nd honey moon, Sir , the fir st on e was ver y short . MR .

ROB LI N : I am going to stay ri ght here vi liere I' m needed . ii[R. CLEMENT : I' m su r e you wi ll . Sir , what ha ppene d yes t er day has pass ed . I hav e unbo und ed faith in our le ader , the Hon ourabl e Ivlember fro m Lak esi de , an d hi story will prove , as I Poin t ed out earlier on , .tvlr.

Spe;g ker , and I kn ow you to be a ma n of exp lici t hon esty, and I know that you will ag ree tha t th e Ho nour abl e, our le ader , has a de si re , a si nc ere desi re , to serve th e peop le of Ivlanit oba faith fully, as he has done in 37 years and if he so desi r es , wi ll do for an ot her 37 yea rs, if he li ves th at lon g. I con clu de my add resses , Sir , wi th these '''or ds ; I ha ve unb ound ed faith in the futur e of Cn nada , in the future of our Pr ovin c e of .Manit oba , re gardl ess of v.'hat Govern men t is in nm,,_rer .

May I sug ge st , Sir , achieve ment and pr osperi t y go han d and ha nd . Na y we con ti nue to have bo th. Thank you . lvlr. 11',. B. SCA3.TH , Q.C . (R i,r er H ei ghts ): Mr . Sneak er , in 21

ris ing toni�ht to congratulate you on your recent election to office, I do not congratul ::!te you as a m1 tter of mere cour tesy , but I congratulate you with the deep-r ooted conv iction that your inherent ho nesty and a sense of fair play will ever preva il in th is House , and we all know on all sides of th e house, that if an error is made, that it will be made vrith ev ery ho nest intention.

In congratulating the Honourable , th e Member from Roblin, and the Honou rable , th e member from St . :tvlatthews on th eir very able addresses to the Sneech from the Thr one, I can earnestly say that ev eryo ne in th is House, I bel ieve , th oroughl y enjoyed what was said and the praises received by all are only ev ident of the success of those addresses . I did notice that a great number of memb ers who got un to congratulate the Rev. Dr.

Mart in, the member from St. :tvlatthews , claimed a frie ndship to him of years � by that , I presume they intended to indicate to this House th at they were regul ar chur ch goer s. Per sonRlly , I would have been more impressed if some of th ose gentlemen had fi led an affidavit with the Cl erk of the House setting out the lAst time they saw the inside of hi s chur ch. How many? And, Sir , in con gratulating the First Minister and his colleagues in the Cabinet , I wish to make just a little point ; four new bill s.

That is when I say fo ur new bil ls; fo ur importan t bills have been br ought into this House cove ring new terr itory and , I think , that every member of th is House who has had any �xoerience in draft ing bills will realize the colo ssal amount of wor k entailed. Now, just let us dwell fo r one moment with that education bill. I don't know who all, I know th at the Honourable, the Minister for Education mus t have had a great deal with it but , how that work could have been comniled with other wor k of the Cabinet and got together in thi s time, is amazin g.

It is one thine; to read the reoort of a Royal Commi ssion . That can be done, but it is another th ing, Sir , to frame a bill taking into consideration and provj dine for all of the contingen cies wh ich that renort set out or suggest s. Now, we know that in committee a numher of amendments wer A suggested and the sum of them were , of course, ve ry mu ch to th e point ; \\'ere qu ite con structive. But , I would have one sugges tion in connection with all of th ese four bill s brough t in wh ich are cover ing new terr i tory.

There will be fault s, there will be bugs in them and I do not care whether this House sat down for one month or six months , the wh ole House together could not frRm e a perfe ct bill .

There fo re , we may be sure that unf oreseen �r ound is not cover ed when those bills are finally brough t down and, fo r th is reason, I would suggest to all memb ers of the Hous e, that a latitude be given either to the Lieut enant-.· Gover nor in Counc il or to the l-'lin ister concerned , to frame regulat ions from time to time or to bring into effect regul ations from time to time , whi.ch are within the ambit and the spirit of th is bill - -- of each bill concerned. And then after we see our mi stakes , amendments· can be bro ur;ht in to· cure legisla'tive defects.· I th ank you , Mr. Sne ... ker --- NR.

EZEIJ) (K ildonan): Mr . Soeaker , I ·want to take this oppor tunity of heartily congratu latin� you on accenting the �r eat hon our conferred upon you by this Assembly as Speaker of th is House. 22

And with your exper ien ce , an d I' ve not iced your pat ien ce, I thin k we hav e m� de a v.rise ch oi ce. I ho ne , Mr. Sne ak er , yo u vcil l be patie nt an d to ler an t with the nevrly elect members until we have lear nt the rules and re gulations in parl iame nt ary pro ced ure . Mea nwhile , we won 't min d if you ch ide or re nr ima nd the se nio r mem bers so ""e can avoid th eir pi tf all s. I "':ant to co mnl iment the mover and seco nd er on their fi nal rep ly to the Sp eec h from the Thro ne .

I want to co ngr atulate the Fi rst Hini st er in Pr eva il ing · upon such a fin e woman by po wer of pe rsuasio n to beco me his wife but he is not runnin� tr ue to fo rm. Fo r in the Ol d Test amen t , in the bo ok of Deut. Cha pt er 24, Ver se 5: "when a man has taken a new wif e , he shall no t go out to wa r, ne ither shal l he be char ged wi th any bust ne ss but he shall be fre e at ho me one year an d sh al l cheer up his wife which he hath ta ken'' • • • Now , the le ad er of the Onnos it io n --- :t-m .• ROBLI N: Mr.

Speake r, I have a re quest th at that pi ece of in for mat io n doe s no t get in th e pa pe r! Th ank you. �{ . REID : Now th e Lead er of the Qnp osi t io n ha s been in Pr ovi nc ial public office so lo ng that he is kno wn as 111-'lr. Ivlanit oba " but bein g a tr ue po li ti c ian it is his mnral and physi cal obl igat io n to co nt est ever y elect io n until the po lls say ot her wise. Th en, he can ho no urabl y an d gra cio usly retir e from po li tics.

I v1on 1 t elrtborat e on th e ho nourable member who is the Lead er , who is our lead er as he is quite ca pable of doing that him self and I am so rr y th at he is ill to nig ht and no t her e to be able to def end for hims elf. Nor el ab or at e on the platfo rm of our part y which ha s bee n put bef ore th is House on many oc casio ns . But this , I must say , Mr. Speaker , vv·he n the ho nourable me mber ch ose his vo catio n, he pic ked that of th e Mi nist ry de dica t ing hims elf to save and se rve humanit y and we we re most fo rt unate v1he n he jo in ed the C. C.

F. par t y be cause no w he, as Leader of said part y, ha s the opport unit y to save and ser ve humanit y to th e utmost. It is inde ed a gr eat pr ivilege and ho nour for me to be he re to ni ght and I ver y humbl y and grat ef ully than k the pe opl e of the newl y forme d co nst ituen t of Kil donan in elect ing me as th e fi rst repr es enta t ive of that ar ea and it is one of the gre at es t ho nours that the ci t iz ens of any ar ea ca n best ow on one of their own : that of electin g one to rep res en t them here in thi s lo cal leg is lat ure .

And I shall end eavo ur to uphol d that gre at tr ad�t ion with di gn it y an d hono ur by at te ndi ne; regularly, be ing att en ti ve to Proc eed ings of th is House an d abid in g by the rules and re gula tio ns se t fort h by the Hono urabl e, Nr . Spea ker, and assis t si tt ing member s in fulf ill ing their dutie s and re s·po ns ib ili t ies vrhether it just pe rtai ns to their re spect ive ar eas or hanit oba as a who le , pro vid ing it v1i ll be benefic ial to the m an d no t con tr ov er si al or co n ten tio us·t o ot he r ar eas durinc; th is sn ec ial Se ssio n.

Now ma ny of yo u have tr av elled or visi te d Kil d ona n co nst it uenc y and kno w what an en t ern r is inp; co rrcmunit y vve have . I have li ved the re all my li fe an d I 1v e seen it nr act icall y gr ov.rn from a vi llage to one of the fi nest rn£tro po li ta n are as in the North American Co nt in en t . La st year , my co ll ea gue, the Ho nourable �emb er fnr Radisso n, had the privileg e of nrono sin g a bi ll which ma de us the youngest ci ty in Eanit oba but \'.'hat ir'e lack in quant it y,

!•!r • REI D ( contin ued ) we m0.ke up in qual ity . Bec ause in area we 1 re not much la rger than five sq uare miles . It has ta ken in the pre se nt th ree "''ards of' our si st er ��n ic ip alit y, Nort h Kildonan but as far as our mutual rel ati ons is conce rned , no bou ndary exist s. The la yout of our residen ti al area is unsurpas sed anyw he re . I have travell ed in Canada an d. th e States and s een none th at can co mpare .

Our school dist rict is one of' th e finest and mos t effi cien t � not onl y in Manitoba but in Can ada . vie have at t racte d to our te a ch i ng st aff' some of th e finest in th e professio n and by th e res ult we have shown , pupils have grad uat ed wit h marks an d ho nours th ht were unbel ie vabl e. Thi s, Mr . Speaker , is due to our civic ad min istration which has been st udied by our Federa l Government thr ough th e off ice of our Secret ary, Mr. P. F. G.

Byers , ac ti ng at ti mes in advisory and con sul ting ca pac ities not on ly to Canad ia n an d American municipal men but European and Asiatic as we ll . This he acco mpl ish es by having an eff ic ient st aff and by his lo ve and under st a nding of municipal affairs . In public office we have been very fort unat e in having offic ials ci vic ---h aving offici als- --p ardo n me --In public office we have been very fort unate in hav ing -ava ila ble citize ns of' hi gh ca li bre and ability who had th e foresight an d guid ance from ci vic off ici als to eng age an d dev elop th is distric t.

The only si te s we have ava il able now are desir able industrial areas to be com pletely serviced by all utili ti es and all th is at a nom ina l cost . Recreat ion ; we have one of the fi nest golf courses in Canad a . Eighteen holes , designed by t� 1e famous Norm VJoo d. Parks., co rnrn.un it y clubs. St . Bonifa ce has been kno�n as th e City of' Cat hedrals but when th e buil din g, the prese nt program of building ch urches is co mplete in Kild ona n const ituency we will ruh th em a clo se seco nd .

Thi s may all sound li ke an Utopia to th e honourable n1embers but it must be seen to be anp re cia te d , an d I'm at li be rty to show you , to ta ke you any place in Kildonan . So , I hop e some of you accept my in vit a ti on. Up to th e present ti me , Mr. Sneake r , my obse rvat ion of th e Hous e in Sessio n, is th at sim ila r to a boxing match wher e bo th parties are sparring an d wait ing for an opening to kn ock th e othe r fellow out . The C. C.F. are in the un popular posit io n of being a refer ee .

But , I fir mly bel ieve , Sir , th at per sonal an imo sities and self-import a nce shou ld be le ft at th e port als of th is ch amber v.rh en we en ter. And , no one rnerrtber is more im po rt an t th an th e ot her but he is a symbo l of his const it uency in which we repres ents 20 ,000 people - urb an : and 14 ,000 ru ral , an d th ey are th e on es tha t are import ant . To tha t ca use , one and all mus t ded ic ate th e mse lves. I shal l endeavor brief ly , Nr.

Snea ker , to nut before th e Sess ion here but �- li kel y at th e reg ula r sessi on , a few po int s of fac t whic h I figure v·muld ben efit Man it oba as a ,,,hole . Many members have heard here bef ore but th e old saying is - repetition If you repeat a th ing oft en eno ugh , you bel ieve it yours elf . And , I ho pe I don 't have to wait 18 years as my col le a gue , th e Honour able 1·-iember for In kst er but hi s pat ience wi ll be rewarded by a bi ll from th e Govern ment on im nroved assist ance to old age pensione rs and als o approv ed ,.vidow 1 s allo vla nce. Anot her point , Mr.

Speaker , is an ar1e ndment to th e Elec tion 24

Hr. REID (c ontin ued ) Act ; to per mit an Yone to advanc e, to vote at the advan ce polls , pr ov id ing they will be ab sen t on th e elect ion da te. At the pr e sen t ti me , the only peop le �� o can vot e at advan c e po lls are th ose th at are ab sen t on bus iness and many district s they have an advan c e poll an d re gar dless of whether one person vot es or 1,0 00 , I bel ieve th e co st is fi xed . Another po int , Hr .

Chairm an, I' ve not ice d an d I' ve had qu it e a fe w co mp lai nt s on it my s elf , I' ve heard peop l� talk to me , an amendment to Highway Ac t , Se ct ion 55 , Sub-section (3 ) Phr ase (4) , which sta tes : "an y person dr ivin g a mot or vehi c le 15 mil es an hour th ro ugh play grou nds , rin ks , school areas , et c ." Now, under th e pr es ent se t uo a ��gistra t e ha s no re co ur se bu t ma rks the offence on the driver 's li ce nse , re gar dless of ci rcu msta nces .

In many instan ces, a man may be just t;o ing thr ough an area at 18 mil es an ho ur withou t thin ki ng and the offen c e is ma rked do ·wn on his licen se an d the �la.gistrate has no other alt ern at ive but to do so . v�hat I th ink is on e of the mo st impo rt ant is su es , Ivlr. Spe ak er , at the pr esen t ti me are mini mum v·Ja.ge act . V:e 1ve he ard it repeat ed here many ti m es ; at 58 ce nts for \'.70men an d at 60 cen ts for men . And how in the world '\\re expect a fa mily to exist on sa me esp eci ally with th e hi gh cos t of li vin g is beyo nd me .

Al so , many em ployers evade th is is sue by put ti ng thei r employe es on we ekly and mont hly bas is an d then workin g th em in ex cess of arran ged hou rs ; th us th e ho ur ly ra te is even belo w th e pr esen t mi nimum rat e and I si nc ere l y agr ee with our Leader th at th e min imum ra te should de fi nitely be at le ast .�1.-00 per hou r . Ev en at th at ra te, you would ha ve qui te a pro ble m in ma king ends me et beca us e I am a work ing man my self and have ma ny frien ds in the same cat eg ory .

The av erage man or vmman ·who wor ks for wa ges an d not li vi ng off a bu siness or inve stmen t ju st manag es to get by the se days . Pr ovin c ial schoo l gr an ts ; we 'v e heard many de ba tes an d, of cou rs e , I th ink ri ght now we have so m ethi ng co min g up on it , but neverth eless , lvlr. Speak er , sh ould defi nitely be incre ase d by a hi gher perc ent age .

This co uld be e asily impl emen t ed by incr eased ta xat ion on mineral ri ghts, oil con ce ssi ons , pulp or any of our oth er natural reso urc es which are ut iliz ed by co rp orat io ns or in divi duals but whos e share of taxes is not eq uival ent to the av er age ci.t iz en.

And , I belie ve , so me other met hod of fi nanc in� our sc hool di stri cts sho uld be es ta bl is hed : thus those mo st ab le to pa y �o uld con trib ut e the l�rgest sh ar e and would leave the lo w inc ome pers onnel , ol d age pens ioners , resi den ts wit h fi xed inc ome and we would all fa ce a lo wer re al es ta te ta xes . · An<hther Lard ship the working pe ople mu st con t end with is ce rtain cl au se of Co mpen s at ion Ac t. The Ac t st at es you mu st ha ve an inju ry by ac c iden t if an y clai m is to be ent ertain ed . Now ma ny cases are di ffic ult to pro ve so .

So I fi rml y belie ve , Mr . Spea k er , th at as lon g as an empl oyee is inju re d at his pl ace of empl oy men t , re gar dless of caus e, it sh ould be suffic ien t enou, ,?h and the words "by acc iden t 11 should defin ite ly be deleted fr om th e Com ne risat io n Ac t . Anot her que st ion we ha ve he ard qu ite oft en is th is , so me of the mem bers I' ve hea rd hav e lack--i n wat er and oth ers recen tly, 25

we 1v e had too muc h. Th e matter of land erosion caused by ,,.rat er . And, I believe , that areas that are built uo that river banks of said areas should actually have a prooer retaining �,,,all construc t ed. Th is ·would be a good project fo r th e Gov ernme nt to follow this winter to rel ieve unemployment and aL;;o save many valua ble build ing s. But new areas wh ich have rive r s or streams ru nning throu gh th em , I definitely believe the local autho rities should not en cour age build ing on said site for in the near fut ure they will have a similar probl em .

Now, many honourable members have witnessed the terrific traffic jams we had last week du e to th e closing of Prov encher Bridge wh ich I believe put th irty-th ree percent mo re traff ic on the other three river cro. ssings. And I th ink th e Gov ernme nt should consider th e feasibility of the rail road bridges in an area �est Kild onan - North Kild onan as be ing con ve rted to a one way br idge alternately controll ed by light s to rel ieve pressure on existing bridge s or ; in a matter of emergencies. And I was honing , Mr .

Speaker , that in the regular Session the Mintster, the Honourable Minister of Public v'JOrks might bri ng in a prov ram of a bridge buil din g · pr og ra m in for the Greater Win nip e g area . Now the que stion of nEl_tu ral gas, Mr . Sneaker . The ho nourable members of this House know our policy on same bu t I def initely believe th at our Govern ment as administrator in th eory, thr ough the Natural Gas Comm ission, should insist at the pre sent time that the gas company extend it 's mains to serve all areas.

I understand th at for th e cu rrent year they intend to curtail th is by about $5 % wh ich would mean that in th e near fu tu re , they woul d apply to th e Utility Board fOr a raise in rates above the present , due to th e lack of suffic ient cons�m ers . But , the company could encourage new cust omers if it gave a guarantee that the present rat e wo uld be set for at least five years . I believe mr�ny people would convert that .h old on rate for others wh ich deoends entirely on company ma nagement . But I definitely believe that expropr iation even tu ally will be the only solu tion.

Thus natural u;as would be out on similar basis as other ut ilities wh ich are publicly ovom ed . There 's another small point , Mr . Sneaker , the amendment to Municjpal Act to permit mun icipalities or cities who so desire , to put a referendum -- to put to a referendum a by-la w for recreational purpose wh en required . lvlr. Speaker , all those remarks and challenges that have been hur led across the floo r by both parties, to my mind , are ju st a hig h pressur e publ icity scheme , to appeal and attract the publ ic .

But they are not that gu llible , and can see throu1';h it all , and they know wh at hapnened when one pa rty had to o larr:e a ma jority , or if one stays in power too long. Now th e Liberal party reminds me of a cat , that .j u st swallowed a bi rd , and is comfort ably relax ed - digest ing it� �eal � Thsy ha�e - been comf ortably relaxed for a lonE'; time as the Gov ernment of this Pr ovin ce , leisurely dig est in� the needs of th e people , but na tu rally in that position , do nothing about it . Now the Conservat ive s, have been sleeoing so long, like Rin Van Winkle , and they are still dormant • .tvJR.

CAJ,·lPBELL: Hear ! Hen r! 26

MR. REID : Now- -n ow the sudden burst of enth usia sm on both sid es , the fir st time it has happened to ei the r on e o� th em, and they can't und ers tand it , but it s eas y to e�nl ain - there st ands the C. C. F. in the centre, wit h a sha rp prong in eac h ha nd, prodding the Libe rals to keep the m awake, and st rong ja bs at the Co ns ervativE£ to wake them up, so we can P""SS so me le gi sla tio n that the peopl e of Mani toba have wai ted for , a lo ng time. And th en the public will rea liz e that ther e sta nds th e C . C. F. , the pa rty of action, who are get ting th in gs do ne, and at the sa me ti me carryi ng the ot her two

part ies al ong . T hank you very much. 27

IvlR. J. TANCHAK (Eme rson) : Mr. Speaker, I wi sh to congratu late you on yo ur hi� h position, on the election to yo ur hig h position, and as mu ch as I know of you , I1m sure that yo u'l l discharge you r dut ies to yo ur best ability and impartially . I wish to congratulate also, the Leader of the House, the Premi er , on attaining his life's aniliition, to •••..••. I suppose, congratulations are in order also on his changing his mar ital standing and joining so many of us happy men.

Not so long ago , I heard the Premier stating that if he would have known how happy or how nice it is to be marr ied, he would have done so many years back . I woul d also like to congratul ate the mo ver , and the speaker of th e Speech from the Thr one. I am not an old-ti mer here , I'm comparatively a newcomer. Last winter , or this past spring, I had the honour of si tting in my first Ses sion, and last- -a t the opening of the Session, I had the honour of seconding the Speech from the Thr one.

I know it's a great honour , for the constituency , for the people who live in the constituency , and I1m sure that the two honourable members , the m ov er and the seconder of the Speech f�el likewise about that. We have heard qu ite a few maiden speeches in here , and I wish to congratul ate all those memb ers, I know it is qu ite a task to get up for the first ti me and speak to all these intelligent gentlemen in here , and you have a ki nd of feel ing that you may say something that isn't qu ite right . I was qu ite interested in a ntmber of th ese speeches, from the younger ones and the older ones too.

One that impressed me mo st was the speech made by the Honour able .tviember from Carillon. There was comment made on th at before , I' ve heard seve ral speeches last year , and before I had the honour to represent Emerson constituency, I used to sit u p in the balcony , in the gallery there , and I listened to qu ite a few speeches, but I mu st say that was the best speech that I have ever heard.

Of course, the Honourable , � he Premi er made a speech that was qu ite impressiv e today too , but ] don't th ink we noticed th at so mu ch , because I th ink, being a Premie r is qu ite a 'responsibil ity , and a man in that position, should be expected to make a ve ry good showing. But , tha t speech impressed me qu ite a bit. I do not agree with every thing that the �onourable Premi er had to say, naturally I wouldn 't, but there was sub ject for th ought there .

Now, a few of the other younger member s, especially our yo ung expert on negligees, I under stand he 1s the yo ungest member here - about 22 ye ars , and not marr ied, I just wonrler where he got to know--where he got the ex per ience on the negligees so far. Oth er member s that I really enjoyed to listen to , just not so long ago , the member from Birt le-Rus sell , some of us lik e to say that not so many days ago , he was a socialist. Oh , he expres sed himself pretty well , and I do not th ink that the honourable member is a socialist.

I also liked those speeches made by the honoura ble member from , now, wh at 1 s the name again'? Oh, Radisson! The honoura ble member from Radisson, a very likeable chap, and wh at I like about him and some of th e other member s, that when they get up to speak here, even if they criticize, and criticize harshly , they haven't got the venomous tongue -- take the honou r-able member from Carillon, he 28

MR . TANCHAK (C ont inu ed ) cri ti cize d di ffe rent .

part ies , but that cr iti cis m v.ras given with a sm ile , it wasn 't ve nomou s. And so meh ow, a sp eec h that is deli vered with ve nom , and ani !I).osi ty , an d ki nd of sho ws hatred , I do not th ink . th�t that is in pla ce in th is Hou se . Maybe I'm wrong , as I .said I ' m· a new member , I do n't think that 's good state smans hip . I th ink it 's a pl ace where we should debat e an d cr it ici ze the opp osi ti on . Maybe !. wouldn 't agr�e with the Hon ourabl e Member fr om Carillon ent irel y , what was sai d. last nig ht .

Maybe it is the duty of the Opposi ti on to overth row the Governm ent and be come the Gov ern men t . It may be that that is the duty . I feel that it is our duty to opp ose the Govern me nt , if we th ink that the Govern men t is no t taking the rig ht step s . It was me nt ioned before by the Pre mier of the Ho use , that we have the choice of not su pportin g, or vot ing the Gove rnmen t down .

But if I not ice , in the Sp ee ch--- cop ied Speech fro m the Throne , it sa ys that "you have been summoned on th is occ asion to consi der proposals deal ing with ce rtain, spec ific mat ters ," and as far as I see , .I thin k th ese sp eci fic matters--i t loo ks that way , that they were deli beratel y cho se n, so , and pla ced before us , so that we co uldn 't suppo .rt th em , an d st ill be hone st to the pe op le that we rep resen t . We co uldn 't ob jec t to th em , I mean, I' m so rry .

We co uldn 't ob jec t to them wi th a cons ci ence , be cause most of these - they were sp eci fic ones - most of th ese are bi lls for projec ts that the pe ople do .de si re . But , I th ink , that we have a perfe ct ri ght to bri ng in ame ndments, .a n amendmen t that was brou ght by the Honoura ble , th e Leader of th e Opp os ition, I th ink was quite in order . Be cause ., if we take up--p ic k up so me of th e pamphl ets that were distri but ed in the Spr:ing - he re is one , it sa ys the nex t step for1.vard is the Roblin Govern men t . That has been real ize d , we do n't quarrel with that .

That is the Roblin Govern men t . But , I not ice he re , a hd I have it unde rl ined ; there is a promi se, "the Campbell Gove rnment ha s aban doned 1'-lani to ba farmers to the press ur e of th e cost pric e sq ueez e, 'l an d that 's the first sen te nce on agri cultu re , so eviden tly that was the most import ant one . We ll , what did the pre sen t Govern men t do'? They have don e exac tl y the sam e th ing . Doesn 't this . pamphlet infer that the new gove rnmen t , if el ec te d , is not go ing to abandon the farmer to this cost pric e sq uee z�.

Sur e it do es, the fa cts say that "you did n't do it , you should have , that mea ns I am go ing to do it ." And st ill , in th e Speech fro m the Thr one , not hing was me nt io ned about it . Truly , the Hon ourabl e the Leader of the House says that "why sh ould we say that you sh ould do it , when you '"'ere in office you said it was a fede ral affa ir ." Ye s, it is a federal aff air , but maybe they co uld he lp make so me sugg es t ion s .

And if this was a Spec ial Sess ion to deal with emer genc ie s, why , at least sugge st -- sugge st th is , sug ge st to Otta wa gov ernm en t or ask for sugg est ions . I do n' t th ink we are wrong in cri tieiz ing the . Gove rnme nt . Today , si tt in g in the commi ttee , the re was a sugge s ti on made b� one of the hono urable me mbers that th is bill on ed ucat ion was too ha st ily prepared . Maybe it v-ras - pr epar ed . I think it was too ha st ily pr epared •••. �. and that 's no re fle ct ion on th e Ho nou rable Min iste r .

I' m sur e that the Honou ra ble Mini ster did th e best he co uld , but the time was sh ort . It 's on ly a few months si nce that bill was--th at interi m rep ort came out , that 29

MR . TANCH AK (Con ti nued ) was pr es ented to th e publi c, and th ere wasn't rea lly enough ti me to do it . Th e honourabl e mem ber sugge st�d that th is bill sh ould be sh el ved . Wha t ha ppens , th e1 ·e was a rem ark , I sh ould say a cock y re mark , thro w us out , I don't kno w \vho. di d it . Thro w us out . We l l, I do n' t th ink that is the ri ght at titu de � Why, if al l of us si t in that co mmit tee and there is sev eral sugge st ion s that says ma ybe 16 or 20 sa ys th at it was to o hast ily pr epared .

Why co uld n't th e gov ern ment take th at in to co ns i der ati on an d wit hdraw th e bi ll ma ybe j sh el ve it •• •••••••• The Ho n6urabl e Member fro m ac ros s there just a few minu tes ag o sta .t ed that we wil l ne ver hav e perfe ct bills. But it is tr ue th en, th e lo nger we st udy th em th e cl os er th ey' 11 come to per fect ion . So I su g,�est that th is bi ll on edu cat ion there wasn't enough ti me to sc rut iniz e it very care fully . I st ill have no qua rrel, I ag ree that we ' sh ould pa ss this bi ll thro ugh.

We hav e do ne it in se co nd re adi ng an d I th ink it will be fi ne le gis lat io n but I st ill th ink th e sugge st ion made by that honourabl e membe r - I am sp eaking in defence of him - was quit e in orde r ,. an d I do not th ink that tha t re ma rk wa s of a very fai r on e, he says th ro w us out , just because ,a certai n memb er ma kes a re mark that it pr o ba bl y co uld be sh el ved . I th ink al l of us that's why we're si tti ng here , no one man has al l th e brai ns - th ere are over 50 of us 'h ere and pro bab ly every on e of us has a ce rtai n good .s ugge sti on to make .

Why not li st en? We di dn't come here to quarrel � I don 't ima gi ne . We came here to le gisl ate good laws for our pe ople , and not to si t here and jeer at ot hers and quarrel and see how badl y we can hurt them , one on th e oppos ite si de.

Maybe it is n't for me , I al way s fel t , st ill feel that I am a young memb er fo r me to tr y to tel l th es e old er mem bers , the veter ans , the polit ici ans that have been here for 5, 6, up to 9 or .l O years or mo re , what to do but it is just an obs erv ation that I ma ke as a newc ome r, and it is n 1 t my int ent i on to hurt anybo dy in here , it is just my views . As I sai d befo re , I had th e honour of si tti ng in th e sessi on la st sp ri ng. It was a full House , th e sa me as we have th is sessi on --t his sp eci al sessi on . There is onl y one re ma rk I would like to make .

La st year we had the good ol d Li be ral Pa rty , an d th e Co nser va t ive Part y . I am not going to pa ss judgment good or old abo ut th e Cons erv at ive Party . Every party has so me r�oo d an d so me bad in it and we had th e C.C.F. an d we had a Soc i al Credi t and we had th e In depe ndent , and we even had one Communi st , Labo ur Pr og ressi ve. And th is year it see ms to me that th ere is only two

part ies, one , th e good old Liberal and th e ot her , th e Cons erv at ive Party . What has happened to the C.C. F.? We just don 't ac tual ly see th em . I wonder why doe s th e ost ri ch sti ck hi s head in th e sand? As I ment io ned be fo re , I am si tti ng o� th is si de, la st year I was si tt ing . wit h, the governme ,nt , th is yea r I am . si tt ing wi th th e opposi tio 'n . : I think I hq;d the, ho nour last ye ar of rep resen ti ng th e gov er nme nt , th is yea r I am ha ving the exp erien ce , good exp eri ence si tti ng in the Opp bsi t ion an d• I am enj oyi ng it .

V•lho kno ws ; and I beli eve tha t af ter the next el ecti on , and 'I:Ihen ever it co me s, we do n't know, I wil l b� si tti ng pr ob abl y , I' m al most su re , sitti ng on the ot her si de ag ain .i We have a Leader - 30

MR . TANCHAK ( Cont inued ) the L. eader of our party in "''horn we have faith and �:lith no sl ur on anybody I do not th ink that in the future , tha.t ' s my feel ings , in the future---i n the past we 'v e had as good a. Premi-e r in the past as we had the last few years in the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition and I do not believe that �n the future anybo�y _w ill surpass our great leader . Therefore , I bel ieve that we 'l l be back on the other side pre tty soon.

There was a suggestion made just now, kind of a wh isper, and it says 11 Yeh, if you come to our side ." I don' t know what that suggest ion is - pr obably they feel th at maybe I am go ing to change colors -- no , that 's not what I mean t - I meant that the Party- T don't bel ieve in that changing colors . I am not an animal - the weasel 'change s colors - brown and then changes to wh ite in the winter ; the rabbit does that , too , but Gee Whiz t I wouldn 't dare . No, I don' t like carrots, is right an d it's true , I do n't like some of his angles , I don't like it .

Now, let ' s- -I th ink I am rambl ing a little too muc h, ltlr. Sp eaker, I hope you don' t ask me to sit down . I didn 't intend to say that mu ch -- I intende d to be short - only about five minutes but-- and something else that come s to my mind . I read an interesting

article and in li eu of all these promises of the Cbns ervative Par ty , and I hope th ey fulfil them, because it will be good for the people , and I'l l give them credit--I 'l l be the first one to give them credit - I' ll have no quarrel with th em . There is · quite a slate of all these promises here and they 'r e all good - very good . The Diefenbaker Government did the sarrie th ing - the Diefenbaker party before the first elec t ion; a·nd then what ha ppened -- in the second electi on, they ··.•e re lucky to win the elect ion . And that 's quite simple - I think, and may be I' m wrong in my thinking .

In the past few years under the good leadership of the Liberal Govern ment in both the Pr ovince and in the Federal th e economy of Canada was buoyant , the people got used to spending a lot of money - buy ing th ings and they did exactl y the same th ing as the Govern ment is doing now. And I th ink th ese two leade rs , we have to give them credit , took advantage of that - they could see what the trend is and they unders tand human nature . There was plenty of money - money was abundant .

People are buying things right an d le ft , they 'r e buy ing on credit , on instalments - pay later , pay late r - that 's exactly what the tvm Government s ar·e--I 'rn not too sure , I'm .n ot ac cusing the present Governmen t because the budget isn' t •• • • • • • • we 'l l see when the budget comes out . But we knm " the Ottawa Government did that . Wha t are they doing? They are exa ctly do ing the same thing as th e people in the past fe'l!l.r years did . They buy on instalment with the hope that sometime in the future , they' l l be able to pay .

That \vas th e feeli ng of the people and if you promis e the people a lot of money and scatter mo ney rL �ht and lef t those are the th ings the people want and they 'r e used to tha t because they have been living qu ite highly in the past few years and as I say , und er th e Libe ral ·Government in the past . So now, the Cons ervative Party took adva nta,�e of that . · They unders tand human np,ture and you ' ve got to give credit to the man who can do it and naturall y they follo w the same trend -- promise the people a lot of money , spend a lot of money like the people want but someday 31

MR. TANCH AK (C ont inued ) there 'l l co me a ti me th at th e m 9ney ha s to be paid up . It 's fi ne and da ndy to bud get for deficit for one ye ar , two years , th ree years , fou r . What will happen? We have to pay the int erest and it 's just li ke th ro wing interes t on the world or it 's just li ke thro wing th at money int o the ri ver . We know not so lo ng ag o th at in the Province of �anitoba , ab out a third of th e Provincial reven ue went int o pay ing up the interest alone - one th ird , and what does th a t bring to Ivl.anit oba?

Not hing and that 's prob ab ly th e sa me th ing may ha ppen in Otta wa - th e sa me th ing ex actl y - there co me s a ti me when th ey can not have de fici t budg et ti ng . They 'l l have to pay it up - it 's not go ing to la st forev er . So th e pe op le will start aski ng que stio ns then . But wha t I wa s refer r ing to wa s an interest ing art icle in th e Carillon News and that wa s th e honou rable E.P. , Jvlr .

Jorg ens on, at a me et ing at LaBr oq ue rie - it was this last week - th e fa rme r 's called a me et ing an d th ere wa s about 75 of th em pr es ent an d th ey called the me et ing wit h the int ent io ns of ma ki ng th e sp arks fly and th ey were mixed - th ey were not Li beral all Li beral or all Co ns er va ti ves - mixed - just fa rme rs fro m La Br oq uerie . They were di ss atis fied with th e far m po li ci es of th e Ott awa Go ve rnment an d when Mr . Jorg ensen came th ere - th ey did n't make th e sp a.rks fly . He is an eloq uen t sp eaker - I li ke the gentle ma n ver y mu ch.

He is a ver y nice ge nt leman , but what di d he sa y - th is is th e ma in po int of his sp ee ch - th e th eme . He sa ys, it looks di fferen t fro m th e to wers of Otta wa - th e si tu atio n looks differen t from th e to wers of Otta wa th an when I wa s a far m er . Fro m the lof ty to wers of Otta wa it loo ks di ffenen t to wheri yo u'r e a far mer - when yo u'r e a sma ll man . I wonder who con vinced him that . He wa s ver y con vinc ing duri ng the elec t ion campa ign but we went th ere , he wa s con vinced oth er wi se and wha t did he sa y at th e meet ing?

He ·s ay s .that th e Federal Govern ment is not --sh el ved the ideq of farm credit - not forev er , mi nd yo u, it 's in Car illon New s , th ere 's a st ory , I meant to bring it but I did n' t, in there . And when he wa s-- wa s asked about an oth er que st ion - defic ie ncy pay ments - what did Mr . Jo rg enson sa y - th ey are not pra ct ical ; deficien cy pa yment s are not pr act ical .

I am not go ing to say th at Diefen bake r pr omi sed to pay the se pay ment s - defic ien cy pay ment s but the pe op le under stood th Gt he di d -- th ey unde rstood that he wa s go ing to do so me th ing ab out it--on defici ency payme nt s. But now Mr . Jorg enson sa ys it is n't pr actical . It woul d be qui te po ss ible to su bsi dize fa rm prod ucts or pr od uc ts used by your own pe ople or for home con sump tion . But nothing that go es ••••••.. ••••••• They are qu ite rig ht but did n' t th ey know it before th e el ec t ion? So why pro mise th at to th e pe op le as th ey did .

Tho se are so me of the re mar ks . The only rea so n I am do ing th is is to sa y th at I hope that the pr esen t Govern ment does not ren ege on it 's pr o mises li ke Ott a\va di d . I hope and I' m wil li ng to he lp an d do all I can to he lp th e pr es en t Gove rn me nt - ma ybe I ca n, too , may be th ey wouldn 't wa nt my he lp but I am will ing to help and see th at th e pr es ent Gove rn men t fu lfils all it s pr omis es an d not th e sa me as Otta wa .

Not go back to the pe op le in a few mon t hs an d sa y fro m th e Golden Boy in 1,1/inni_peg the si tuat ion lo oked di ffe ren t th an when I wa s ri2: ht he re , when I wa s a li ttl e fellow. No , I hope th at th e Govern ment fu lfils all th ose promi ses 32

MR . TANCHAK (C on t inued ) and th ere 's quit e a lot of promi ses here so I still sa y that we had perfect ri ght to amen d this Thr one Speec h because we can voice ou r--o ur dis sat i sf act ion with that , proba bly , or the Governm e nt sh ould have probably don e mo re and what bad di d it do? It did n' t do an y harm . At least it broug lt th e Min isters out to exp lai n here and they did ex plain and I give th em credit for that - that they do int en d to impl emen t these oth er th ings lat er on in the next Sessi on, and I hope they 'r e rig ht .

But at lea st we had the expl anat ion to that and I do n't see anyth ing wrong in br ing ing about an ame ndme nt to the Thr on e Speec h . I suppo se the C.C.F. co uld have voted wit h us and the Govern me nt would have been def eated and we woul d have had an electi on. They di dn' t see fit to overth ro w. Maybe -- I' m not gett ing at you, in yo ur hair , honou rable member , I was just go ing to say so me thi ng nice about you but I thin k I sh ould change my mi nd now . No , well then I' ll say it .

Maybe partly th ey are just ified an d so me of us members ar e just ified too , be cause the y'r e qu ite - not onl y are the Liberals out in the co untry but I have sp oken to qu ite a few Cons er vat ive s an d there 's one th ing that th ey do n't like an d some C.C.F. and Con s er va ti ve and Liberal and th ey all say , Gee Wh iz , what ever yo u do fello ws , do n't have another elec t ion thi s year . We 'r e si ck of them .

So maybe this is partly ju sti fied - maybe I'l l get it in the ne ck for th is from so me of th e memb ers here but I' m just exp ress ing my vie ws and it doesn 't ne cess ar ily have to be th e vie ws of the rest of the collea gue s here . It 's my own . Now, I sh ould come back to the sp ee ch fro m the Thro ne . I did me nt ion th at there was sp ec ific matters here and on ly the go odies were br ought up which we could not co nsc ien tio usl y op pose and sa y th ey are no good . And we di dn' t sa y th ey were no good , we sai d we 'd support all of th em .

Take for instan ce, the bill- the bi ll on ed ucati on . We sup ported the pr in ci pl e of it but as I stated befo re , I did not th ink that the bill was- -all the differ ent cla uses were re all y re ally mul led over an d it could have been st ud ied more closel y . Evi dence of that is what? In those last few days si nce th e bi ll was pre sen te d to us-- was pr int ed and pla ced on our desks an d ins ide of four days , the Gove rnment come s in itself with a whole lot of amend me nts th at we have to put in .

So in four day s th ey found amend me nts - four day s they fo und so me thing wrong wi th them , what if we give it an other fou r day s - there will sti ll be more . We will giv e it ano ther month , an ot her four mon ths , there 'l l be more amend men ts so tha t it sel f pr ov es that the bill is n't quite read y to be presen ted .

But we 'l l have - we 'l l ne ed so meth ing li ke that , another su gge st ion given by oth e r rep res enta ti ve s in Committee to day - so me of th em were n't too happy with it an d so me of th em were of th e sa me op inion it was too hast il y prep ared and so me just outr ight di dn' t li ke it and I kno .,.T out in the co unt ry the pe op le are coJl:f used . For instance we have rig ht in my own consti tue ncy , .rig ht in my own vi ll age , we started build ing a bran d new hig h sc hool just three weeks ago .

Hi red carpen ters he re fro m the ci ty and it 's about half completed -a hig h sc ho ol th at 's go ing to cost over $50, 000 .00 an d it 's a four roo m sc hool - two ele mentary roo ms and two hig h sc hool .roo ms . Now, what is go ing to happ e n to that? They are all as king those 3 3'

M� . TANCHAK (C ont inu ed ) que st ions . I'm not ask ing but the pe op le .... what 1s ga in� to ha pp en . We 'r e sp en �i ng �50, 000 .0 0 now . No w if th is other thi ng co mes in and it see ms to be a good thi ng and we ca n' t st ay out of it bec ause if we sta y out of it , we won 't get th e grant s an d the whole th ing is conf used - they are all con fused . I di d advise th ose pe op le in the Sp ri ng . Th ey co me up to me and th ey asked me , they sni d Ji m what do yo u th in k of it ? I told th em what I thin k of it . I th ink you sh ould wa it a ye ar .

Immedi at ely they jump up - sa me two fell ows - he 1:m s si tt inc ; up here not so lo ng ago last we ek , ha ppened to be on e of th e truste es . He says , 11you have no children and you don 't care for a Hi� h 3chool - yo ur children ar e thro ugh ." Ok ay I sai d , I'l l go along with you but I advise you to va it a year an d wa it ti ll th at repor t is made public and then see what yo u1l l do . Wa it a year - t:merso n took th at sur�ge st ion - th ey "'rere go ing to build a hi ':h sc hool in th e to wn of Emerson but th ey took th a t su gge sti on and th ey v-.1ait ed but Ridg eville didn' t.

Prob ably got nobod y to bla me but th ems el ve s but they are won der ing , th ese peop le , wha t 's go ing to ha ppen th en. Of course toda y or to morr ow or nex t year , so me pe ople would have he en cau :� ht anyway be ca us e the world do es n' t stan d still . There wa s a sugge st ion made before . VJhy did n' t th e Li berals do it when th ey we re in powe r' ? Vvhy did n't th ey br ing in th is legislat ion \'ll'hen th ey we re in power . Hel l, I co uld as k th e same quest ion . \i.Thy didn 1 t th e Honou rabl e the Pre mier , get marr ied ten years ago or 20 years ago ?

You know the world keeps on go ing - - th ey , pro bably 20 years ago th ere wa s no nec essi ty for a farm credit bill . I don't sa y - I don't th ink I 1 ll contin ue the com par ison anymore . But now there is a nece ssi ty for a far m credi t bill . It wa s ne cessa ry to im ple men t it , ti me s have chan ged an d we ne ed it . So we ca n' t acc use th e pa st Go vern ment th at they did n't do it ten years ago . May be you can ac cus e th em of not do ing it last year or th e yea r before last - the y di dn' t do it . Otta wa is n' t wi ll ing to do it even now bec ause acco rdin g to Mr .

Jorg enson he says its been she lved for a year . Pr ob ab ly if the Liberal Govern ment wa s in power ri ght now, the y' d have don e it . So me of you sa y we just pro cra st in ate but yo u have no pr oof of th at . You ca n' t defini t el y swear t. hat the y'd do it , th at th ey wouldn 't have done it . This re port - - in teri m rep ort , Royal Co mmi ssi on on educa ti on . It' s a Li beral baby . The Liberals org anized that co mmis si on and now the rep ort is before us - just the in teri m rep ort .

The Cons erv at ive pa rt y pro mised last Sp ri ng just before the elec ti on - th ey pro mi sed to incr ease ed ucat i onal grant s by 50 %. It mi ght have been quite di ffic ult to do it - I do n' t see why they did n' t do it . I do n' t know, - th at wa s a pr omise and it should have been kep t . In so me pla ces maybe it wa sn 't po ssi ble be caus e I kno w in fact a fe w districts th at have been fin anced 80% by the Govern ment and if yo u incr ease it by 50 % th ose people when th ey heard th at and kn ew what th e fi nan ces of th e sc ho ol we re , look at it -w hat 's wrong?

So me th ing is si ll y he re• VVe 1v e got 80% , it 's just a fe w districts th at we re very po or, and the Gove rnme nt is go ing to incr ease th e gr ant by 50 % th ey are go in g to give us 12 0% - we 'l l have money for ice-cre am on top of th at . But the Govern men t proba bly , the Co ns er vat ive Part y or th e �4

hR . TANCHAK ( Co nt in ued ) Gover nme nt , had a pr et ty ro ugh ti me tryi ng to implemen t i t' s 50% grant increa se - I suppo se certain parts of l-1anitob a would have really be en ge tt ing some thing fo r nothi ng so alon g come s the int eri m rep ort and here they jumped at that and to ok it and that was a lif e saver , I say . In my opi ni on it is . I see the .

Hon ourable the Pr em i er, doesn' t thin k so but I think , I th ink that that saved thei r li fe - the in ter im r ep ort becaus e now they can say they ' re foll owin g the in te r im report and if t here is anything th at 's wrong , 'we are not to blame for it , that was th e report of the Commis sion and we ju st foll owed it '. Maybe the Li ber als would ha ve done it . They did that with the Bracken r ep ort - follo wed it t o the letter . Naybe they would have� - - and ]tm n ot say·ing the pre sen t Gove rnment shouldn 't do it . I hop e they do .

I think the re port is go od myself in pr in cip le but there are many dif ferent ways of impl emen t it , I supp ose . Now, I do n't th ink I shoul d say to o much more on education but the nex t one and I '1 1 r ead it fr rom he r e , "T he Gove r ·rrment in ten ds to i nit ia te a vi gorou s indu str ial and tourist develop ment prog nam which will be ne fit all sec t ions of th e Provi nce . I have no quarr ·e l with that , I think it 's a good thi ng.

All I can say is I hope tha t some towns and v il lages in .m y co nst ituen cy will mer i t this - this what shall I say , money or this - merit con sid er at io n of th e Governm ent . We have towns li ke· Emerso n, Domi nion C ity, Vita ,. Spr a gue , lar ger towns in which i ndus tr y co uld flou nish and I h ope that th ey take advanta ge of it . I have n o quar r-el with it . I th ink it is a good bill an d I do n' t th ink any of our membe r s h ad a nyt hi n g too much to say agai nst it . Now, the next one .

We al so have , I sh ould s ay , quite a few to uri st attract io ns in our c on st i tuen cy and I h ope that the govern ment sees fit to impr ove them . Now, the nex t one is unempl oyme nt . 1lJvty gover nmen t views wit h dEiep conc ern the seasonal unempl oyme nt ." Last year there was an une mpl oymen t pro gram . I do not say th at this legi slatio n is ne ces sa ry but i t see ms to me that it ki nd of follo ws almost on the same li nes. It was a fairl y good pr ogra m. Ho st of these works were to uc hed upon .

The Fe deral Gover nmen t helped 50% in some cas es in fores t areas but I agree wi th th e Hon our able the Premier , that this is a better one . We ll, i t 's not quite the same but th er e ': as an u nempl oymen t program .

It wasn 't legis lated but th ere was a certai n progra m for une mpl oymen t . .We re ad it in the papers - - with the he lp of Otta wa but I thin k I agree with the Govern ment of the Honourable M ini ste r th at this co ver s more fie lds than that , and I have n o qua rr el with that an d I hop e that the Governm ent thro ug h this will see fi t and I have a few sugg esti ons for Emerson co nst ituency for wint er unempl oyme nt , pro babl y there is not hing new but I am ju st maki ng them for what they are wor th. I'v e bee n as ked to gi ve � few suggesti on s . I kn ow ther e' s qu it e a few he re .

There is cl ear ing and bru shi ng of the Sprag ue to M iddl ebor o road . That 's the old ro ad not the new one - it 's the old roa d bet wee n Sprag ue and Mi ddleboro . Th ey will have to use it this wint er and any , I suppose the Hon ou rable Min ister of Publ ic Works has been thr oug h there and the Ho nour abl e Mi nis ter of Mi ne s & Natural Reso urces . I know he was

MR TANCHAK (C on t in ued ) thro ugh there and he could see those popl ars on both si des of the road and it is nothing but a sn ow trap in t}).e win ter, so that would be a good pr o jec t . Then, another on e , maybe , the prop osed Mi ssissi ppi Park way , if the lo cat io n is ·alre ady agreed up on, may be that co uld be cleared and there was a sug ge sted road fr om Lake of the Woods so mewhere to wards Moo se Lake , maybe that could be un dertaken dur ing the win ter .

And there are many drai nag es sugge sted in the area - probably so me of that co uld be cleared this wint er and in to urist camp si tes fire breaks could be made dur ing the wint er quite easil y in the fo rests, tr imming of fores ts . Now, there i� another pro je ct , the peop le at Badger have been req ue sti ng a telep hone li ne for quit e some time and haven 't got it and I th ink it would be a good pro jec t for the wint er time pr ovi ding that the wint er is not too sev ere . The telep hone li ne to Badge r - I th ink it is quite ne cess ary that those peop le sh ould have it .

The hydr o, the pe ople fro m Moose Lake and ar ound Moose Lake have asked for hydro ext en s ion . I thin k it co uld be don e in th e. win terti me •• The re 's ano ther one , the br idge at Stuartb urn on the Mo rden-Sp rag ue is an old rattletr ap and it 's time it was rep laced . Ma ybe so me of this work co uld be unde r ta ken during the win terti me and to reliev

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	25-1-8b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	25th 1st hansardpdf 8b.pdf
Language	en
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Identifier	fcdea553db2928458f43365169943b06ac0d0305

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