Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, MAY 13, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HON.OURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 69

Mav 13. 1974 Tape 1607 IB-1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: HON. J.C. CROSBIE (MINISTER OF ~!NANCE): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a copy of the accounts of crown corporate agencies, boards authorities and sundry funds administered by the province for 1973. HON. L.D. BARRY (MINISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY): You caught me off guard when you were passed presenting petitions. So, I wonder if with the leave of the House I might present a petition. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable minister has leave to present a petition, agreed.

MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, this is a petition from the people of Brookside in the district of Placentia West. The prayer of their petition is that they would like to see better telephone services provided to the community of Brookside. They are aware of the fact that this is of course a responsibility of the federal crown corporation, the Canadian National Telecommunications.

I would ask that this petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates - the only provincial department would be Transportation and CoDDnunications - so that we can have representation from our government to the Liberal government in Ottawa to see if we can get the type of modern communication I established in Brookside which is something that is ~o longer a lu~ury but an essential in this day and age in Newfoundland as in other provinces in Canada. Mr. Speaker, just recently improved telephone services were carried out as far as Boat Harbour which is only a few miles from Brookside.

Because of the failure to extend the new cable as far as Brookside, we still have a situation where people are waiting. They want to get telephones and cannot get telephones installed because the line cannot carry it as I understand the situation. So that I would ask, ~r. Speaker, that thi~ petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. NEARY: We would like to lend our support on this side of the House to the petition presented by the member for Placentia West on 592'3

?fay 13, l'l74 Tape 1607 IB-2 behalf of his constituents ir, the Community of Brookside. As the honourable minister pointed out to the House, Sir, the petition is out of order but nevertheless, the tradition of this House,over the past number of years since I have been here anyway,is to allow these petitions to be presented even though they come under federal jurisdiction. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No.

I must say, Sir, I could not help but taking note of what the minister said about presenting this petition,or to his colleague - having it tabled he referred to his colleague so that his colleague could put pressure on the Liberal government in Ottawa. So, the minister must anticipate, Sir, that there is going to be a Liberal government in Ottawa for some time to come. I am inclined to agree with that, Sir. We support the petition. MR.

SPEAKER: It has just been brought to my attention that we have in the galleries from the Harbour Breton Municipal Council, Mayor,John Carter; Deputy Mayor, Mervin Chapman; Councillor, Harold Clark; and town manager, Simeon Fiander. On behalf of all members I wish to welcome you gentleman to the galleries today and trust that your visit here is most interesting. MR. AYLWARD: 1-'!r. Speaker, before you move from presenting petitions, I would like to present a petition on behalf of in excess of 100 fishermen from the Placentia area.

The prayer of the petition is that the government conduct a proposed harbour development at Point Verde in Placentia. The purpose of this development would be, Mr. Speaker, to ensure first that the fishermen would have a safe and a nearby harbour to land their fish and also, of course, that it would provide a safe haven for their ships in winter. On another occasion I brought to the attention of the House and to the attention of a committee the desperate conditions under which the fishermen in the Placentia area operate particularly with respect to safe anchorage of their boats in the winter months.

This particular area, Mr. Speaker, contains a large number of fishermen from the islands of Placentia Bay who have settled in Placentia. ~j9 24

May 13, 1974 Tape 1607 IB-3 They left very, very good harbours and very, very good premises' and they now find themselves operating in Jerseyside and Placentia. Because of the Placentia gut and the very, very heavy tide going in and out that gut and because of also the ice conditions which prevail there in the winter it makes it extremely hazardous for the fishermen to anchor their boats in Jerseyside and Placentia. So, Mr.

Speaker, I said, I think a few days ago in this honourable House, that maybe one of these springs we will probably see one of the greatest property damage losses ever experienced by fishermen if something be not done to accommodate the fishermen in and around Placentia. The ice builds up from the southwest and the northwest and if the tide should ever turn or the wind intensify in a certain direction, it is quite possible that practically every boat - there are a lot of long liners in this area - could be destroyed by ice.

The ~inister of Fisheries, our own minister, is quite familar with the matter because I brought it to his attention this spring when several fishermen in the area telegraphed me. Of course we tried to get a federal icebreaker in there but because of the narrow conditions and the tide in that particular area it is just impossible to get the conventional icebreakers to go in and provide the fishermen with any assistance. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries is quite familar with the problem. I realize that this is a matter, of course, like the previous petition, that has federal connotations as well.

I do exhort the minister to give this petition all the support that he can. I ask that it be tabled in the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. l-TINSOR: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House would like to support the petition presented by the honourable member for Placentia East, realizing that of course it probably falls within the jurisdiction of the federal Department of Environment. Nevertheless, I think he has made a good point, to impress upon the honourable Minister of Fisheries, provincial Minister of Fisheries,to use his 5925

May 13, 1974 Tape 1607 IB-4 influence because, Sir, the fishermen are unable to operate efficiently and get the most production fro~ that area without some safe harbour or safe anchorage for their boats. Jerseyside and Placentia do not provide that kind of shelter. So, therefore it is very important, if we are to encourage fishermen. It is no use to provide the fishermen with boats unless they have some safe place where they can anchor their boats or moor their boats or tie up their boats during the fishing season and more especially, during the fall of the year when we get high winds and high seas. So, Hr.

Speaker, it is with much pleasure we support the petition. NOTICE OF MOTION: MR. nARTIN: Mr. Speaker, under Standing Order 30 and by leave of the House I would like to make a motion in a matter that is in my opinion extremely urgent and pressing at this time. If everything goes as normal today, we will at the end of this sitting day have passed the seventy-five hour mark limiting the time of debates on the estimates. Now, any institution may make its own rules and abide by them but I think where a matter of public interest is concerned if those rules prove to be unworkable, then we must take steps to change them.

In this case, Sir, they are,at least for this sitting period they have been proven to be totally unworkable . We are going to see at the end of seventy-five hours many millions of dollars passed without debate, without any questions whatsoever. Under the proposed system of committees we would have been able to get through those debates. As it stands there was not time to set up those committees and therefore we do not have time remaining to discuss these millions of dollars. I would like to make the following motion:

WHEREAS the Committee of Supply has been unable to deal with all Department Estimates within the 75 hour time limit; AND

WHEREAS it was not possible to set up the Committee system which would have expedited the debates on these Estimates;

May 13, 1974 Tape 1607 IB-5 AND

WHEREAS it is not in the public interest to pass those remaining Estimates without debate;

NOW THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED: That Standing Order 116 be temporarily suspended to allow the debate on the Estimates to continue until all Departments have been dealt with. Sir, I will have to ask leave of the House,if this is going to be dealt with here and now, to deal with it without debate,because otherwise it is going to be placed at the end of the Order Papers. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if the member needs a seconder for that motion, I would be very pleased to second the motion. MR . SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador South has made the motion as dealing with the time limit on estimates.

It is really a notice of motion. As such I can merely accept it as a notice of motion. It is a private member's motion and would have to be placed on the Order Paper as such unless of course by leave of the House that they want to take a vote on it. I can merely accept it as a private member's notice of motion now. MR. MARSHALL: I would like to say on it even though it is a bit irregular, Mr. Speaker - the member for Labrador - I do not think we need to get into a debate on it but the honourable member for Labrador South did have a few introductory remarks that I think perhaps ought to be replied to.

Let me say this, that the estimates this year will take a longer period of time than they have at any time since Confederation, with the exception of one year I believe - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . MARSHALL: I said with leave of the House. MR. MARTIN: He is debating the motion in question. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The honourable minister does not have leave. MR. MARSHALL: Well, if I have no leave, Mr. Speaker, this just shows why the government cannot accept it and I will give further explanation outside the House. MR.

SPEAKER: The House did not grant leave so it will be placed on the 5927

May 13, 1974 Tape 1607 IB-6 Order Paper as a private member's motion. HON. T .A. HICKMAN (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Grand Falls Hospital Management Act, 1961." MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions on the granting of supply to Her Majesty.

I give notice that I will on tomorrow move the House into a Col!Dllittee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions relating to the raising of monies required for the purchase by the province of BRINCO Limited of all the interests and title of that company in and to Hydro Electric Facilities and Water Rights in Labrador. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: None. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. ~ARTIN: ~r. Speaker, in view of the reported financial problems of the St.

John's City Council, will the ~inister of ~unicipal Affairs or the Minister of Education care to comment on what adverse effect the establishment of a school tax authority in this area would have on the future collection of revenue by the city council? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is calling for an opinion and as such is out of order. MR. SPEAKER: Well, I do not think the question is one that demands an urgent answer. It could be placed on the Order Paper. MR. MARTIN: Another question, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that the council is having trouble collecting money through taxation, could the Minister of Education indicate whether or not the same thing will exist with respect to the collection of taxes by school tax authority establishments in St. John's? UR. SPEAKER: That is just maybe almost the same question asked in a slightly different kind of way. MR. Y.ARTIN: MR. Speaker, could I direct another question to the honourable Minister of Education? When does the Minister of Education intend answering the question from the president of a 5928

May 13, 1974 Tape 1607 IB-7 branch of the NTA calling for the reopening of the contract negotiations for teachers,for an across the board increase for all teachers? Has the minister received the letter? HON. G. OTTENHEIMER (MINISTER OF EDUCATION): Mr. Speaker, actually I was out of town on Friday on the West Coast. I have not yet received it which does not mean that it is not in the Department of Education. I have not yet received the letter actually. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question, Mr.

Speaker, has the minister received any representation along the lines of representation from the president of the NTA on April 10 for a reopening of the contract negotiations for teachers? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, as is already known - it has already been stated in this House - the letter was received from the NTA with respect to suggested reopening of their collective bargaining agreement with the government, particularly with respect to salaries and wages. The House knows the communication was received from the St. John's Fire Fighters Local.

As the House, I believe, knows a communication was received from NAPE requesting that all their collective agreements with the government be reopened for the same purpose,in connection with wages and salaries. As the House already knows, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the government I have said that this is a matter that will be studied carefully by the government. All the groups that have written have been informed of that. We are studying all the collective agreements in question and we are looking at the matter very carefully. As I have already told the House before, Mr.

Speaker, there will not be any hasty decision on this as it is a matter of great seriousness and great import particularly because , collective agreements have been entered into with all these groups in good faith. As I have already told the House before, Mr. Speaker, when the government has made a decision it will be communicated to those groups and to the House if the House be then open. It is very unlikely that there will be any decision made before the month of June. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I was asking the question of the Minister of Education.

Has the minister replied to the request of the president of 5929

May 13, 1974 Tape 1607 IB-8 the NTA in writing with respect to reopening of the - MR. OTTENHEIMER: It has been answered on behalf of the government along the lines indicated by the Minister of Finance,of which this House is alrea4y aware. The House is already aware that the government has received a request from the :lITA for reopening of salary negotiations. The government has received requests from other groups,as the Minister of Finance indicated . These groups have been answered by the government along the lines indicated by the Minister of Finance. MR. MARTIN: What lines, Sir? I mean, there is no answer.

AN HONOURABLE ?!EMBER: Just sympathetic. MR. NEARY: 1k. Speaker, I do not know who is responsible for flags on the government side of the House. Will the honourable Premier tell us what that thing is that is flying beneath the Union Jack and the Canadian flag? What is it? Who knows? Does anybody know on the government side? HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Does the Minister of Tourism know what that thing is that is flying half mast? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Rave we gone into mourning for something or other? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ?lR. NEARY: What is it? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: Can the minister tell us what it is, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: The question could be very well placed on the Order Paper. MR. NEARY: But , Sir, it is flying now. I would like to find out - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please'. MR. NEARY: The House will be closed before we get the answer. AN HONOURABLE }!EMBER: Name him. MR. NEARY: Name whom? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Name him. MR. NEARY: Oh, he is back again. "Bully Boy", "Old Scrooge" is back. "Crusty " is back. Perhaps now, Sir, that the t-'inister of Mines and Energy is back he could tell us if it is correct that the members of the 5930

May 13, 1974 Tape 1607 IB-9 Power Commission had been notified that their services are no longer required. MR. BARRY: Yes, ~.r. Speaker, this is correct. The letters have been sent out to the existing members of the Power Commission. All of them I believe except Mr. Reid who will continue naturally in his position as chairman of the Power Commission and by virtue of his office continue as a member of the commission, but the other members have been notified that their services are no longer required as of the end of May. At that time government will be appointing new members to the commission.

There is, under the act, authority to appoint up to seven members. The policy of this government is that the members of the Power Commission will be remunerated on the basis of any other board. It will not be on the basis of the previous administration. They will be remunerated on the basis of any other board, in other words, on a per diem basis depending upon the number of meetings, so much per day.

Legislation is now in the process of being prepared and it is hoped that this legislation will be ready for this session,to restructure the commission into a power corporation to authorize by legislation the creation of a board of directors. I think it is approximately ten directors that are contemplated. Once this legislation - if this legislation be approved by this honourable House, then of course this government will be appointing 5931

May 13, 1974 Tape 1608 (Afternnon) PK - 1 a board of directors to provide the proper communication between that crown corporation and government. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Would the minister indicate to the House if it is the intention of the government to reappoint any of the old members of the Power Co11111ission to the new corporation? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, there is no reason for the honourable member to assume that. This government will be announcing who the new members of the Power Co11111ission will be at the appropriate time. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Sir.

Would the minister indicate if any of the members of the Power Co111111ission will Qualify for a pension in any way, shape or form or are they just being flung out in the cold? MR. BARRY: Not to my knowledge do they qualify for a pension, Mr. Speaker. There has been no provision. What has been done in effect is that the existing members have been given a month's notice of their termination and at the end of that time there will be no more further connnunication as Cormnissioners of the Power Conmdssion. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Would the minister indicate to the House whether ex-colleague, Mr. William P. Saunders,has been disposed of, for once and for all or is he being transferred to some other government post? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, that is a stupid, irrelevant, nonsensical question. Hr. Saunders I do not know why the honourable gentleman opposite feels it necessary to attack him, to belittle him, to pick him out any more than Mr. Canning or Mr. Ballam or any other of the members who have ended up in this position because of the action of the honourable gentleman's previous and maybe provincial leader. MR.

NEARY: We did not fire them. MR. B.ABRY: I do not think it is a fair question. I do not think that the people of Newfoundland appreciate having individuals reviled by members in this House. Mr. Speaker, that is a question that I do not think I want to answer and I am not going to answer because I do not think it deserves an answer. G93-Z

May 13, 1974 Tape 1608 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Well, it took him five minutes, Mr. Speaker, not to answer that question. MR. BARRY: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if this same minister would care to comment on the Mayor of Gander's comments concerning a pipeline to bring jet fuel into Gander. I would gather from the Mayor's statements that she is not too optimistic about getting jet fuels supplied by pipeline to Gander. Would the minister care to comment on that? MR. BARRY: •!r. Speaker, I do not have the details of the Mayor's comments. Mayor Newhook I think it is. MR. NEARY: Right. MR.

BARRY: But I can say that Mayor Newhook as a mayor who is doing her job I think in the way that she feels it should be done and as far as I know is doing a good job. I have not seen anything to indicate the contrary. She would know as will the honourable member opposite and anybody looking at this problem that the question of whether a pipeline goes from the Come-By-Chance Refinery to Gander or from the Come-By-Chance Refinery to St.

John's or from the Come-By-Chance Refinery to Marystown depends upon the economics of the situation. 1t depends upon whether there is a demand, an adequate demand for a sufficient quantity of fuel to justify the cost of putting in a pipeline. It is a pure matter of dollars and cents.

If the honourable gentleman were asking whether this government were concerned in seeing that the Gander Airport is assured of adequate supplies of jet fuel to ensure that there will be continued development of Gander as an International Airport,then I can reaffirm again that we are determined to do everything possible to ensure that Gander Airport has the supplies of jet fuel or any petroleum products for that matter that are necessary to ensure its continued, not just continued viability but continued viability and expansion. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, seeing that the minister is so talkative today I wonder - a supplementary question - would the minister indicate if the alternatives are being investigated? For instance, bringing the jet fuel 5933

May 13, 1974 Tape 1608 (Afternoon) PK - 3 to Gander by rail or by road? Are these possibilities being seriously considered? Especially by rail? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I am not quitP. sure that I follow the honourable gentleman's question. I have no doubt that whoever decides that or whoever ends up making the decision to have jet fuel conveyed from the Come-By-Chance Refinery to the Gander Airport will consider which is the most economical means of doing this.

Now at the present time there are discussions,as I understand it, underway between the management of Gander Airport, between the management of Come-By-Chance Refinery - MR. NEARY: Shell Oil. MR. BARRY: And government are keeping a watching brief and have assured all parties of its assistance and of its interest in seeing that these negotiations are carried out satisfactorily,but at this stage this is all that government should be doing. We have a company out there that is producing a product.

It is producing a product that happens to be necessary for Gander because of the type of operation that is carried out at Gander. Now we are going to do everything we can to see that if Gander need supplies of fuel from Come-By-Chance that the supplies come from Come-By-Chance,but at this stage we have not seen anything to indicate that government should step in and take any action other than what has been taken in the past. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the same minister could inform the House if his colleague, the Minister of Justice,when he was in Ottawa there a couple of weeks ago,attending the Federal/Provincial Energy Conference,and was wined and dined at the Prime Minister's house, if the Minister of Justice who was representing the province agreed with the other provinces in having the price of gasoline and heating oil increased in Atlantic Canada starting this Wednesday? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I have answered this question I think in different ways at least fifteen times previously.

Our government at the first National Energy Conference went on record and vehemently requested the Liberal Federal Government to roll back petroleum prices G934

May 13, 1974 Tape 1608 (Afternoon) PK - 4 to what they were as of September 1. 1973. At the same time we said that if the Liberal Federal Govermnent were unwilling to go along with this request then we said that the very least they could do was to freeze prices as to the price that they were at the time of the conference, which was I think at the end of January, the first conference.

Now since that time there have been discussions between the Federal Government and other provinces, between the Federal Government and the multi-national oil companies and the Federal Government, the Liberal Federal Government,in its wisdom have decided that it is going to approve of an increase in the price of petroleum products of the order of three point seven cents in Eastern Canada and between nine and ten cents in Western Canada.

Now I heard the shadm.• leader of the opposition, the temporary leader of the oppostion,on the radio today talking about this government taking action to prevent this and stepping in - MR. NEARY: That is correct. MR. BARRY: What does the honourable Member for Bell Island think is the role of this government? MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: I am not the government.

You see - I am not the government, if I were the government - You see honourable members think that we should go up and we will be in two months anyhow as a party,but does the honourable gentleman think that in the meantime we should go up and start taking over the affairs of the national government and reversing this authorization that they have given to these multi-national companies? MR. NEARY: All I asked him; if the minister approved it? If the Minister of Justice, his colleague, did he agree with it? MR. BARRY: The Minister of Justice did not - MR.

NEARY: Well the minister did not come out and say it publicly, whether he disagreed with it. MR. BARRY: MR. NEARY: The Minister of Justice did not approve of any price - But he must have - 5935

May 13, 1974 Tape 1608 (Afternoon) PK - 5 MR. BARRY: increase. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, just for the sake of the records, Sir, it was unanimous - MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: We were told by the Prime Minister of Canada - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: It was a unanimous decision. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! ~IR. NEARY: It was a unanimous decision, Sir . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable Member for Bell Island is completely out of order. MR.

NEARY: Well so is the minister, Sir, for making a false statement in the House because the Prime Minister said it was the unanimous decision, so the minister must have agreed. AN HON. MEMBER: Almost unanimous. MR . NEARY: No, he said it was unanimous. MR , BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the position is,as the honourable gentleman knows,our province reiterated its position as taken at the first National F.nergy Conference that there should be a price roll back, that if the federal government were not prepared to roll back prices that prices should remain as they were in January.

The concensus was and the decision of the federal government were that it were going to permit prices to increase both in Eastern Canada and Western Canada. This province did not approve of that but what could we do about it? It was the decision of the Liberal Federal Government in Ottawa on a national basis and in no way, Mr. Speaker, could we approve of it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Is the minister aware or is he calling the Prime Minister of Canada a liar?

Is the minister aware that the Prime Minister made a statement following that conference that it was the unanimous decision of the provinces that this policy be adopted? Is the minister not aware of that? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member opposite should have anv G93·5

May 13, 1974 Tape 1608 (Afternoon) PK - 6 quarrel with any statement of the Liberal Prime Minister, the temporary Prime Minister . MR. NEARY: No it is with his Ftatement I have the quarrel with. MR. BARRY: I suggest that the honourable member opposite go talk to his colleague in Ottawa. MR. NEARY: It is his statement that I have the quarrel with, Sir. I wonder now that the minister's administration have their neck in the noose, would the minister inform the House what steps his administration are taking to offset this three or four cents increase in gasoline and heating oil?

Does the administration here intend to do anything about it,by dropping the taxes on gasoline and heating oil? I think the Premier wants to answer that question. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: But they have got $9 million. MR. W. N. ROWE: •••• Trudeau. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, if the honourable member opposite think that we are going to have our financial polic±es dictated by the Federal Government in Ottawa that every time the Federal Government authorizes an increase in prices that we are then going to drop back the amount of tax that is collected when it is desperately needed to provide the services in Newfoundland that people want, I can tell the honourable member opposite; No, we are not going to play that game, but we will continue to do as we have in the past - MR. NEARY: They are not going to do anything then. What he is telling us he is not going to do anything?

I mean why do not his answers be straightforward,be a man,answer . it manfashion. They were going to do nothing only let the people suffer that is all. Why does be not just say that. MR. BARRY: When the honourable member is finished,we are going to continue our representations to - 5937

Hay 13, 1974 Tape 1608 (Afternoon) MR. NEARY: To Ottawa. MR. BARRY: Liberal Government in Ottawa. MR. NEARY: Pass the buck. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: PK - 7 MR. BARRY: To try and get them to correct and change their ill-founded and disastrous policies, their failure to have any consideration for the people of Newfoundland or any other province when it comes to trying to control the increases in the cost of living. The energy competent, Mr.

Speaker, of our economy has a very significant effect on the cost of living and we have seen the Liberal Government in Ottawa continue to merrily permit price increases and now we see the honourable members opposite try and cast the blilme on this government. Mr. Speaker, we are not going to accept it. We are going to ask the honourable members opposite to go talk to their Liberal colleagues in Ottawa. We know that Mr. Stanfield is already putting them through the test and has started a vigorous campaign to get back some sound fiscal and economic policies in Ottawa. I am sure we are going to see this come about.

MR. NEARY: This is a pass the buck administration. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Pass the buck, Sir, that is all they know how to do. Would the minister tell us if his administration has yet made up its mind to do the same as they did over in Nova Scotia. MR. BARRY: What was that? MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: What is the point of order? MR. MARSHALL: Sit down and he will find out. Sit down! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this matter I feel has gone on, I think it is quite obvious it has gone on long enough. The question period is now - AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MARSHALL: See this is exactly, Mr. Speaker - AN HON. MFMBER: Inaudible. 5938

May 13, 1974 Tape 1608 (Afternoon) PK - 8 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! If the honourable members wish to waste time while the member makes his point of order to use up the remaining - we have seven minutes of the question period left that is up to all members of the House. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I think this has gone on - I would respectifuly suggest Your Honour this has gone on quite long enough, this particular subject. The question on this subject is entering into a debate which is not what the question period was intended to be. MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Sir. MR.

MARSHALL: I am not through with that point of order yet, Mr. Speaker. Sit down: So, Mr. Speaker, I think that we can dispense now with this line of questioning, I would suggest to Your Honour. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order I would submit, Sir, that is just a matter of opinion, The minister.has not right to stand on a point of order when we are putting the heat on ministers on the government side, Sir. We have a half an hour question period, Mr. Speaker, and all of us including the Member for Labrador South can use that half an hour whatever way we see fit and we do not have to be told by Mr.

Nastiness how to use that half hour, Sir, we will make good use of it. HON. MEMBERS : Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Honourable members have now used up some two or three minutes of the question period by debating whether or not it is a point of order. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Well honourable members have a right to rise on a point of order, if they feel that they have a point of order,and the Chair is obliged perhaps to listen to any arg\Dllent from the other side of the House as well. So I feel that it is the fault of both sides for wasting time of the question period. 5939

May 13, 1974 Tape 1608 (Afternoon) PK - 9 There are only approximately five minutes left in the question period. The point raised by the honourable member was perhaps well taken. There has been a considerable amount of time gone on this one topic and it does appear to be getting into a debate. MR. NEARY: It is a very important subject, Sir, and perhaps we could, I do not know - does the Member for Labrador South want to ask any Questions today? MR.MARTIN: One. MR. NEARY: One.

Well perhaps I could polish off this matter, Sir, by asking the minister if the government have yet taken a decision to do waht they did in Nova Scotia and place the regulation of prices of heating fuel and gasoline under the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities and force the oil companies to roll back their prices? MR. ROWE, W.N. Getting advise. MR. NEARY: Re cannot pass that on to Ottawa. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, when we have a Progressive Conservative Federal Government in Ottawa as we will shortly, we will see there is action being taken,on a national basis I am sure,but in the interim I will repeat as I have said many times before that we are not going to be rushed into expanding a bureaucracy just for the sake of expanding a bureaucracy. That is total nonsense. We do not have a mechanism in government right now that can do that job. We have a Public Utilities Board that is strained to the utmost just in administering the acts for which it is now responsible. If, Mr.

Speaker, we make the decision, which will be based on whether it will effectively lead to a reduction in the cost of living to the people of Newfoundland, if we make the decision to set up a price review board this will mean, if we attached it to the Public Utilities Board it will mean an increase in the staff of the Public Utilities Board. We do not intend to burden the Newfoundland taxpayer, Mr. Speaker, with any unnecessary additions to government bureaucracy unless we see that this can effectively reduce the cost of living in Newfoundland,and to date we are not satisfied, Mr.

Speaker, that this action can be effective. The fact that they done it in Nova

May 13, 1974 Tape 1608 (Afternoon) PK - 10 Scotia or Timbuktu does not mean that we are going to blindly follow along and do it. I know that is the way the honourable members opposite operated when they were in government. If it were done anywhere else therefore we should do it in Newfoundland. We are going to stand on our own two feet and decide ourselves whether it can be of any advantage for us to set up such a control. If we decide that it shall be effective,we will set it up, Mr. Speaker, we have had discussions with the Nova Scotian people, the officials responsible for administering the act in Nova Scotia.

The weaction we get from them is that it is too early to say how - AN llON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: It is too early to say how effective this legislation will be, Mr. Speaker. We have a continuing connnittee of officials keeping on top of the situation in Nova Scotia and reviewing possible legislation that could be introduced in Newfoundland and when we are ready and when we see that we can do something to effectively reduce the cost of living in Newfoundland we will do it but we will not be bulldozed into this by any questions of the honourable members opposite. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable Member for Labrador South. MR. M. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question, one question to put to the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. Since the province has declared its jurisdiction to issue exploration licences to oil companies on the Continental Shelf, I am wondering if the minister up to this point have made representation directly to the oil companies with regard to voluntary controls on excess profits? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I do not understand the question. MR.

MARTIN: Has the minister made direct representation to the oil companies, that is not through the federal government but directed to the oil companies with respect to voluntary controls on excess profits? 5941

May 13, 1974 Tape No. 1609 MR. BARRY: With respect to voluntary controls on what? AN HON. MEHRER: Excess profits, high profits. NM - l MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we have had meetings with the executive officers, I guess, of just about every major oil company in Canada over the past months and year. On every occasion, Mr. Speaker, we have made those companies aware of this government's desire to see the cost of petroleum products to the Newfoundland consumer kept at the lowest oossible level.

Now when we vet into asking these companies to avoid excess profits, are we talking about excess profits in Newfoundland or are we talking about excess orofits that they are making in other perts of Canada or are ~e talking about excess profits they are making through acitivities in the British Empire, in Asia? Where is the honourable pentleman talking about? I cannot say, Mr.

Speaker, that we have spent our time trving to keep Standard Oil of Indiana from making the dividends that it has made in the past year or from increasing the profits ma.de in past vears but I can say that we have, with I would say virtually every major oil company in Canada, communicated to them our government's desire to see that the price to the Newfoundland consumer is kept down to the lowest amount possible. Does that answer the question? "ll. DOODY : expired. The thirty minutes allowed for the question period have MR. -~~ We do not stop to talk, Sir, at foolish points of order raised - MR.

SPEAKER: Order olease! ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the House go :Into Committee of Supply, Mr. Sneak.er left the Chair. !-fR. CI~IRMAN_(~R. ~TAGG): Order please! Hea,d. l'lOl-01 'funicipal Affairn and Housing. We have five hours and thirty-sjx minutes remaining. ~- NEARY: When does the gagging ceremony take place? Sir, what time tonight? What time does the guillotine fall down right around our necks? ~ffi. CHAIR'!AN: The honourable member realizes the times which the House meets. We have five hours and thirty-six minutes.

May 13, 1974 Tape No. 1609 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Five hours and thirty-six minutes, that means around 10:36 tonight we will all be gagged forever, we will go back to the days when the king used to decide how the money was going to be spent. Sir, when the co111111ittee rose on Friday, I was dealing with the matter of housing. I had just swung into a recommendation that was made by Mr. Leonard Kostaszek. One of the recommendations made in his report of the Commission of Enquiry on the Cost of Home Construction and Housing in this province. Mr.

Kostaszek, Sir, had recommended to the legal profession that they appoint a co11D11ittee to review existing professional fees and that the Newfoundland Law Society appoint a committee to review the existing legal fee schedules and affect possible reducticns in the liP,ht of present and proposed changes. Any changes to the professional fee

schedule should reflect proposed changes in the land title registration system, increasing systemization and standardization of operations, volume of activity. Now, Sir, I understand that the Law Society did, following the submission of this report, have a little get together, talked matters over, were severely embarrassed because the whole matter had been exposed, had been held up for public scrutiny and that the public werP wise to their little game that in Newfoundland people did pay the highest legal fees for real estate transactions. So they decided, Sir, to make some minor changes, very minor changes, Sir.

They made changes that you could hardly notice, Mr. Chairman. You could hardly notice them. They came out and made a big public statement, I remember,at the time,about what a wonderful crowd they were. They had gotten together and reviewed the matter of legal fees for real estate transactions and they had made a little percentage point chanP,e, nothing that you could notice. The legal fees for real es'tate transactions, Mr. Chairman, in this province today are still the highest in Canada. I would like to see old "Mr.

Nastiness" himself there get up and raise a point of order on that matter, see who is out of order on that one, with his big plush office down in the Royal Trust Buildin~, looking out over the Narrows. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! I think the honourable member is carrying the 5S43

May 13, 1974 Tape No. 1609 NM - 3 matters a little bit too far, directing his observations of a very personal nature and it has been ranging far away from Head 1901-01 - Municipal Affairs and Housing. The bounds of relevancy have been stretched beyond their limit. I would suggest. ~- NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am dealing with the report on housing, Sir, the cost of home construction and housing in this province that was commissioned by the previous administration. MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please: 1-'R. NEARY: What is the order? MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member is apparently disputing the ruling of the Chairman.

His remarks are directed personally to the honourable the Minister without Portfolio. This I consider to be irrele v? nt and certainly in poor taste. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, Sir, that honourable member is one of the members of the Bar Society,as well as Your Honour, that charges these high fees. Your Honour can come to the resaue of his colleague all he likes. ~R. MARSHALL: On a ooint of order, Mr . Chairm an. ~r. Chairman, you have made your rulin g , They have got five hours. Are they going to make complete idiots and fools of themselves as they have the past seventy hours.

Why do they not get on with it? "!R. NEA~Y: Mr. Chairman, that is not a point of order, that is just ·•Mr. Nastiness'' trying to show off again, Sir. llut, Mr. Chairman, the legal fees for real estate transactions in this province are still too high, Sir. They are the highest in Canada and they add tremendously to the cost of a home. They ~till range anywhere from $850 to $1200, just for a normal transaction, Sir, and that is tacked on to the cost of the home and in some cases you have got two and three lawyers involved.

In the case of a new home, the builder has his lawyer, the buyer has his lawyer, if you are dealing with CMHC they have their list of lawyers over there. You do not have any choice, Sir, you have to go and take whoever they tell you. Sir, this is not good enough. The member for Placenti~ East can get up and talk about the wonderful ti944

May 13, 1974 Tape No. 1609 NM - 4 job legal-aid is doing in this province; that is one thing they will not touch. Legal-aid will not handle a real estate transaction, whether the noor old fellow can afford to pay it or not. Sir, this recoDDDendation and this controversy that raRed apparently did not do him any good. They had a little twinge of conscience, just a little bit. They all went down to a City Club somewhere or down at Bally Haly and they all got together and had a little intellectual discussion and said, "Oh boys we are in trouble.

Our image is going to be bad," It was just a little twinge of conscience. The rates are still the highest in Canada and something needs to be done about it and I would suggest, Sir, that if the Law Society be not prepared to carry out, fulfill the spirit of the recommendation of that part of the Kostaszek Report, that the government do it for them. Do not fool around with them! Or, Mr. Chairman, do we have too many lawyers in ~overnment? Would you not run up against,Your Honour, what I ran up against when I started this controversy,when I nearly got flun~ out of the House?

The Minister of Justice was in the cabinet at the time and the Minister of Finance. MR. HICKMAN: Was it Les Curtis who wanted to fling you out? MR. NEARY': No, Sir, it was not Les Curtis who wanted to fling me out. I know who wanted to fling me out, when I was told in no uncertain terms that there were a lot of lawyers sitting on my side of the House and that I had to be careful. I knew who they were. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: My colleagues are lawyers. They do not practice law. My colleagues do not practice law. They do not go down and charge these exorbitant fees. MR. WM. ROWE: Right! Right! MR.

NEARY: No, my colleague did not practice law. Your colleague practiced before he got elected to the House; my colleague did not practice. AN HON. MEMBER: He did so. MR. NEAR~ He certainly did not. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WM. ROWE: That is the same as not practicing. 5945

May 13, 1974 Tape No. 1609 NM - 5 MR. NEARY: ------ I did not know that. Why does he not tell me these things? MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, something needs tote done about that and if the Law Society will not do it themselves or if they will not discipline themselves, Sir, then the government is going to have to do it for them. The government is going to have to set the legal fees for real estate transl!.ct:lons in this province. Why not face up to it? Or nre there too many lawyers sitting on the government benches, too many rich, well-to­ do lawyers? MR.

CROSBIE : What has he J!Ot against lawyers? :tffi• NEARY: J have got nothing against the lawyers, ~r. Chairman. AN HON . '-lf.'-fBER : Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Do not worry. I have a few friends there. I got a few friends who agree with m(•,by the way, about these real estate charges. AN HON. MEMBER: Then I agree with him. }!R. NEARY: Of course. Right, That is what I am talking about. This is not an attack on the lawvers. I have nothing personal against the lawyers. I am talking about the real estate charges, the legal fees for real estate charges in this province. Real estate fees - Mr.

Kostaszek deals •·•i th t'-at too. Did he take the trouble to read this report? '1R. BARRY: Inaudible. 'IP.. NF.ARY: What did I do ahout it? 'fR. CROSBIE: What would he do if it came in two years ago? Three years ago? Four years ago? ~fR. NF!-~llY: 01d Scrooge finally got 'back, Sir. [ think I dealt with that matter on Friday when I said that this is one instance where we have to share the blame. This report was in two years before we got thrown out. Xow that honourable crowd have been in two years and they have not done anythin~ about it.

So this is one case, Sir, where we have to share the blame fur not implementing anv of the recommendations of this report. You cannot be any fairer than that.can you? '1P . • CROc,f\IE: No, that sounds quite accurate. '-'R. NF-A.RY: Riphtl But the Minister of Mines, Sir, wants to know about

May 13, 1974 Tape No. 1809 NH - 6 the real estate fees. Well,here is what Mr. Kostaszek says; "A detailed review of real estate fees indicated that fees for real estate transactions were comparable to those in other provinces." Now what has he got to say about that? "Comparable to those in other provinces." "Actual fees being charges are largely negotiated, an average three point two percent in 1967,which is below the minimum of five percent on the selling value established by the Newfoundland and Labrador Real Estate Board. In this regard we believe that limited potential exists for improvement.

"However, we believe that the overall quality of services rendered to the public requires considerable improvement. Consequently we recommend that tighter legislation should be enacted covering the entry and qualifications of real estate agents. Sp•cifically, exiRtinp legislation should be altered to include the following: " He goes on to make four recommendations about minimum qualifications for obtaining a licence, examination of applicants for licences, a real estate advisory co-ordinator,and training programmes.

Then they go on to talk about the residential construction industry; "Appoint a governmental residential building co-ordinator and adviser." Has that ever been done? No, Sir, it has not. What else is in here? Labour costs, and we are hearing quite a bit about labour costs lately. Material costs, improved marketing and distribution of building materials. 11 We reco11111end that the building supply industry uneertake a feasibility review to improve existing techniques in marketing building products." I can tell you, Sir, that is all that is being done about the material costs in this province.

I can tell you, Sir, we have an-- example right now down here on the Torbay Road where a certain individual vent down and gobbled up a piece of land down there, a fairly large pieee of land down there - MR. DOODY: Name names. MR. NEARY: No, I will not name names. Then, Sir, the individuals who bought building lots there had to buy from that same person's company, had to buy their material from that same company. 5947

May 13, 1974 Tape No. 1809 MR. DOODY: It is a shame. There should be a law. ~~EARY: It should be changed? MR. DOOD'f..:_ Yes. NM - 7 MR. NEARY: Ask the Minister of Finance if it should be changed. MR. DOODY: Did you see his bill? J\ffi. NEARY: I did not see his bill. It has been happening for the last few years. It happened down at the satelite city. The minister ' s ex-adviser, Chester Dawe Limited, went down and gobbled up a number of building lots and if you wanted to buy that building lot, the poor individual had to go down and buy his material from Chester Dawe.

Now you have to buy it from Leematt Traders, if you go down here. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WM. ROWE: Three years later. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir , what I would like to know is how that piece of land got left outside Development Control, the land freeze that the Minister of Agriculture imposed? That would be a good question. I would like to get the answer to that one, Here were the boundaries drawn and that particular piece of land left outside. AN HON. MEMBER: Put it on the Order Paper. MR. NEARY: No, I raised it in this House before. The ministers have had all kinds of opportunity to reply and they have not.

It is time, Sir, we smashed some of these monopolies. These are the kind of things that are driving up the cost of homes in this province, Sir. Let us see what else; The land title registration system should be something that is dear to the Minister of Finance. See what Mr. Kostaszek said about that. "We recommend t.hat the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador initiate the following improvement programmes to moderize and consolidate the oresent svstem of land title registration." Then he goes on. He makes five recommendations. "Retain present system of registry.

(2) Improve present operatinr procedures.

(3) Amalgamate title registration and conditional sales. (4) ferform organization study of registry and (5) alter the basis of fee registration. " G948

May 13, 1974 Tape No. 1809 NM - 8 Nothing ever done about that, Sir, either. This is something that is badly needed in this province and I suggested, Sir, long before Mr. Kostaszek produced his report, that the land title registration in this province be computerized. I have not heard the Minister of Finance nor the Minister of Justice nor whoever's department it comes under say that it could not be done. MR. CROSBIE: It i~ underway. It is in the process. MR. NEARY: It is underway? Well, I am certainly glad to hear that. Sir, it is the first knowledge that I had that it is being done.

You can do it over at the Motor Registration Office. You can transfer cars and trucks. MR, RICKMAN: What we need is a total survey of the provinc~. MR. NEARY: A total survey of the province? Is it being done? If it is.who is doing it? The Minister of Justice says it is not being done. The Minister of Finance says it is being done. Who is riphtl MR. CROSBIE: It is underway. MR. NEARY: He means it is on the drawing board? Nothing is being done about it but it is on the drawing board. Well okay, Sir, I hope that I will get the information from the Minister of Municipal Affairs when he - MR.

CROSBIE: He may want to keep it as a surprise. MR. NEARY: He may want to keep it under wraps like everything else the administra~ion does. After the Hermitage By-election, Sir, they came to the conclusion that they were not publicizing their programiranes enough. This was it. Their PR was bad. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Oh go ahead, call it! We will see what happens, Sir. I will tell you, they are queued up down in Gander-Twillingate, Sir, we are going to have primaries down there, a run-off, there are so many people who want to offer themselves. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please!

Honourable gentlemen are fully aware of the rule of relevancy, needless repetition, all these rules which are supposed to assist in encouraging honourable members to debate matters which are relevant. Presently we are supposed to be de~ating Head 1901-01 and I would 5949

"fay 13. 1974 Tape No. 161)9 NM - 9 suggest t o all honourable members t hat the niatters being discussed are certainly irrelevant to that topic. MR . NEARY: Your Honour must have had a bad weekend; that . is the onl y conclusion r can come to. Now, Sir, one of the main recommendations of the Kostaszek Report was on page sixty-six, the implementation of the proyramme for action .

This b the one, Sir, where they talk about appointing t ask forces to initiate land bank nroRramrnes and undertake feasibility study of land hanks. review existinR organizational structures, appoint ROvernment authority responsible for building co-ordination and advice, appoint a task force to review alternative methods . involving mortr.a~e financini; aopoint a task force to i mplement - and before 1 get off that one, Sir, that certainly is an important one right at the present time. G930

May 13, 1974 Tape 1610 IB-1 Then we are told that in certain lending institutions in this province - the banks - that one cannot borrow, there is no mortgage money available right now, mortgage money is dried up. If one should manage to get some mortgage money, one has to pay forty per cent down down payment as opposed to, I think it was ten per cent or five per cent up to a couple of weeks ago. Today another announcement by the Bank of Canada that the interest rate has gone up what? To eight and a quarter,was it today? Or eight and three .. quarters? Eight and a quarter per cent.

I would like to know what the minister is going to do about this. Does his government intend to subsidize interest? I will make the minister a promise right now, Sir, that any government that I have the privilege of being a member of will undertake, Mr. Chairman, to bring in a programme - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, Sir. I make that as a commitment, as my own personnel commitment, to subsidize interest payments on mortgages. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Oh, $300 a year - talking about peanuts.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Now what did the honourable member do when he was a member of the government? MR. NEARY: What should happen, Sir - this is one time I agree with the NDP - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The honourable gentleman was a member nine years ago. Remember? MR. NEARY: Nine years ago. I have been in this House as a Liberal thirteen years. No wonder we are in such financial trouble , the Minister of Finance cannot count. MR. CROSBIE: Fourteen years ago the honourable member was a very strong NDP. MR. NEARY: Fourteen years ago? The Minister of Finance still cannot count. I must say, Mr.

Chairman, it is nice to have him back. The House was dead without him. I - glad, Sir, that we can liven her up a bit again. I must say that I missed him. There was nobody I could get a little dart at. The Minister of Industrial Development, the 5951

May 13, 1974 Tape 1610 IB-2 Minister of 1".ines and Energy, the Premier, the Minister of Finance, they were all away at the same time. Why, I was heartbroken. I was really depressed. Now, I am glad they are back so we can have some lively and inter~sting debates in this House and find out what kind of philosophy they have, what their thinking is on these things, Sir. Well, I am talking about this, Mr. Chairman. Here is what I am talking about. Here is what the NDP is talking about, setting an interest rate of say six per cent. All the buyer of that home would have to pay is six per cent.

The Governments of the Provinces and the Government of Canada would jointly subsidize the balance, whatever it is. Let us say that it was twelve per cent interest, the province would pay three, the Government of Canada would pay three and the h~me owner would pay six. That is pretty fair, Mr. Chairman. Is that not a reasonable proposal, ~r. Chairman? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: No. MR. NEARY: It is not1 What is wrong with it? MR. DOODY: There should be a ceiling on it. MR. NEARY : Well, Sir, I must say that I would not argue with the minister, If they should want to put a ceiling on it, Sir, he would have mv support.

For God's sake, do something! MR. DOODY: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman. I would certainly go along with that. Does the minister want to propose that? If the administration should recommend that,they shall have my support. Put a ceiling on it. Of course I would - MR._DOODY...:.. Come up with a few more like that and I might even join the honourable member. MR. NEARY: My God, we would have our own little party down here, Sir! We would all shove a few seats down here to the left. We would go off that way, to the left a little bit. Sir, that is good, sound thinking in my opinion. MR.

DOODY: Did the honourable member consider having mortgage interest deductible from income tax? 5952

May 13, 1974 Tape 1610 IB-3 MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. I certainly did. Let me see about that now. Now, Sir, about several months ago I first threw out that idea in this province. MR. DOODY: Re probably discovered it was being done. MR. NEARY: No, I did not discover it was being done. It was an original idea to allow people to deduct for income tax purposes their mortgage payments, the payments on the principal, deduct it from income tax. I think the minister said interest but I would say the principal should be deducted as an income tax exemption. MR. DOODY: Did the honourable member pass it on to Mr. Turner? MR.

NEARY: No, Sir, but no doubt when Mr. Turner returns, Sir - Mr. Chairman, these are a few suggestions for the honourable members. Sir, I am sure they are not going to pay any attention to what I am saying; up goes the barbed wire. They ask us,, They keep repeating inside and outside the Rouse, why do we not put forward some positive, constructive ideasr Well, I have thrown out about ten in this debate but I doubt if any of them will be acceptable to the administration, Sir. Then Mr. Kostaszek recommended to appoint a task force to implement proposed changes in land title, registration system and procedures.

Perhaps the Minister of Finance can tell us what is being done there. Five was to appoint an individual to review and submit revised amendments to the existing Real Estate Trading Act. "We recommend that the Government of Newfoundland appoint an individual to review the existing Real Estate Trading Act." Sir, I am not going to bore the House by going on reading all thia but there is some dam good stuff in there, Sir. There is ~ome good, good material in there. There are some excellent recommendations in there, Sir.

I think it was my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, who mentioned the other day about all the money that is being wasted on royal commissions. The reason the money i~ being wasted, Sir, is that we never pay any attention to the recommendations of these commissions. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: We do. 5953

May 13, 1974 Tape 1610 IB-4 MR. NEARY: No, Sir, they do not. This one has been gathering dust for two years since that administration took office. Look! Has the minister taken the trouble to read that and read this, volumes one and two? The minister has? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER:· Years ago. MR. NEARY: Years ago? Well, why does the honourable minister not go d~m to his colleagues in the law society and tell them about it? Perhaps they will read it. Mr. Chairman, I doubt very much if the administration are :interested in positive, constructive ideas.

I gave one to the minister on Friday when I was talking about the manufactured homes from Stephenville that can be put on a foundation on the East Coast for $16,700. Pardon? MR._DOODY: If the honourable member should sit down I shall ask him. MR. NEARY: Sir, I have a few more things to talk about yet before I sit down. I am going to switch my topic for a moment or so, Sir. I am going to talk about the city dump we heard so much about in the last few years. Two years now, Mr.

Chairman - the gentleman responsible for housing now can slide out,and they can bring in the man r~so~~sible for dumps, whoever that is, the environment gentleman, Two years now, Mr. Chairman, this administration has been studying the city drunp, trying to find an alternative to the city dump. trying to find a new location. They have been at it for two years, Sir. and they have not come up with the answer yet. Well, Sir, I am going to throw this out to the honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Last year when I was down in Boston, I had an opportunity, Sir, to visit a place.

When I was driving up to it I thought jt was a garage really I was driving up to. The minister knows what I am talking ahout because the minister sent down one of his officials from the ?-letropolitan Board to take a look at this place. It is a recycling plant. Recycling, Sir, something new , brand new word. The Minister of Industrial Uevelopment knows all 5954

May 13, 1974 Tape 1610 IB-5 about it. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, that makes me a walking encyclopedia on it. They wanted to put one over in the minister's district but they objected to it strenuously. They circulated a petition. Sir, what put it in my mind - it was not my brother-in-law, it was Mr. Ingram, the manager of the Liner Board Mill out in Stephenville. I did not even know what Mr. Ingram was talking about when he said; "Recycled paper would make a big contribution to the liner board mill. " I said, ''What? Recycled Paper?" I had not e-ven heard of it.

What was he talking about? With my curious mind I had to find out what it was. I found out, Sir, that they have a new technique for disposing of garbage. What they do is they recycle it. They set aside the paper, the old paper. You know, Mr. Chairman, in this province there must be tons, hundred of tons of paper disposed of every year, burnt. Sir, I almost have that much on my desk here every session of the House. It was piled up so high the other day it all fell down on the floor or somebody pushed it down. I had to get the Minister of Public Works to send in a man to clean it up.

Thousands and thousands of tons of paper, Sir, are burnt or thrown on the dumps of this province every year. Mr. Ingram was out in Stephenville waiting to get his hands on that paper. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, I was just thanking the Minister of Public Works for cleaning up the floor because all the stuff on my desk fell down the other day. A great buddy. Another bag of greens for him this week. Incidentally, if anybody doubts whether or not I walked that fifteen miles, I have a blister on my foot to prove it. There are no refunds, Sir. I made the journey, Sir. Pardon?

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: It sounds like the honourable member got another blister from the sun. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, I have a blister right on the - anybody want to see the blister. I would be glad to show it to them. Sir, recycling is the big thing these days. All the glass is 5955

May 13, 1974 Tape 1610 IB-6 separated. All the scrap, the metal is all separated, all piled up. The scrap is sold, the paper is sold, the glass is sold and what is left, Sir, the garbage is baled up like bales of hay, baled up very tightly and is taken out every day and a hole dug in the ground and some topsoil put on it and is buried every day. There is no mess, no fuss and no rats,despite what the people down in that area thought about moving the dump down at the old Newfoundland Steel Company. There are no rats. Pardon? A.~ HONOURABLE Mfil!BER: I would not be so sure. There are a few around. MR.

NEARY: The minister would not be so sure. Well, I know there are a couple of rats down in that area. I know one. There is at least one down there, Sir. I do not know whether he helped increase the population down there or not. Sir, the 'Minister of Municipal Affairs sent one of his officials from the Metropolitan Board down to take a look at this recycling plant. I think it was the same one that I saw. I was impressed with it, Sir. Why, one could eat off the floor. AN HONOURABLE ME?IBER· Was the horourable member down? MR. NEARY: No, I did not go down and look at that. I happened to be there.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Was thE honourable member a guest of the company? MR. NEARY: No, Sir, I was guest of -Pr. Shaheen - on my way back from New York after being guest of Mr. Shaheen. I said that I just had to find out what recycling was all about because not only do we have a problem, Sir, with our dumps but Mr. Ingram out there is looking for that paper. Now, I am sure the Minister of Finance would be glad to get it for him. As a matter of fact the liner board pepple were talking about buying - the minister does not like to hear that kind of stuff.

There are no dollars and cents flashing in front of him, no cash registers , no - I was going to say something but I will not. Sir, the liner board people were going to buy a machine themselves for recycling paper but, Mr. Chairman, I do not think that is necessary. I think what the government should do is to assist the city council in setting up this recycling plant here on the Avalon ~956

May 13, 1974 Tape 1610 IB-7 Peninsula. Not only could it be used for the City of St. John's, Sir. It could be used for the whole of the Metropolitan area, the greater St. John's area, Sir. It could be used down in the Minister of Industrial Development's own district. They are having a problem disposing of their garbage over there. MR. DOODY: No. MR. NEARY: They are. I heard complaints, Sir, about the rats and about the paper blowing around. MR. DOODY: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, they do. That will show them how out of touch that minister is. Paper blowing around, Sir, ratsl MR.

DOODY: We got rid of all the garbage after the last election. It is all straightened out now. We solved our problem. (Second

part inaudible.) MR. NEARY: Sir, we ordered that incinerator the honourable member is talking about. We ordered it. There is still a problem,! am told. On w:1.ndy days they have paper and refuse blowing; all over the place. I am told it is true. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Ah: There is Mrs. Plumptree's buddy, Re loves Mrs. Plumptree, He should put on his Bermuda shorts when he is greeting Mr• Plumptree. If she could only see him, Sir, as I saw him last summer; hairy, boney, calci teridden knees, Mrs .Plump tree would be proud of him. She would lower the cost of living. She would say, "My God!

Look at him! He is like a D.P. Let us get the cost of living down quickly and see will we save the poor, old minister . He looks like he is suffering from malnutrition," i.f she only saw his knees, his boney knees. Sir, I am very serious about this matter because I think this is the answer, the real answer to the garbage problem in this part of Newfoundland, Sir, and not only here but all over. I would like to know what the minister is going to do about it. I understand that the minister had a report submitted to him by this official when he came back from Massachusetts.

I would like to know if the city dump is going to be relocated. 5957

May 13, 1974 Tape 1610 IB-8 As a matter of fact, Sir, I do not know if we can use the recycling plant where the dump presently exists because I do not believe there is too much topsoil down there. !,N HONOURABLE MEMBER: Bell Island. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, that would be too expensive, bringing in the cost of the tickle and dropping it down in the mine. We are trying to get oil on Bell Island. We are going to hit oil over there pretty soon. That is right. Mr. Chairman, I do not think that it is a paying proposition. Maybe I could be wrong. I do not know whether it is a paying proposition or not.

I think probably it would have to be a subsidized operation. Maybe the city council would need a grant from the province in order to use this method but if they do , Sir, it is worth considering. It is really worth considering . in my opinion. I was really impressed with that whole operation. One could go in there, Sir, and hardly see a bit of garbage around, little conveyor belts going up in machines,separating the stuff, baling it up, sending it off. It is just as clean as the floor of this House here, Sir, cleaner than my desk or some of the desks in this honourable House. One could eat off the floor.

Trucks coming in, covered trucks , bringing the stuff in, stuff being hauled off to the steel plants, hauled off in another direction to the paper mills. Does the honourable minister not believe me? MR . DOODY: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, the minister is an authority on garbage I can tell them that. That is right; So, it is something, Sir, worth considering. I would like to hear the minister's views on it when he stands to speak. Now, there is only one other point I want to cover before I take my seat.

That is that matter, Sir, of the growing number of Newfoundlanders whc buy homes that are poorly constructed. These people, Mr. Chairman, have no recourse in this province against shoddy worlananship. Sit down, ' 'Mr. Nastiness", please! Only one at a time is allowed to speak in this House. Mr . Chairman, other provinces 5958

May 13, 1974 Tape 1610 IB-9 of Canada have seen the need, Sir, to protect their citizens against being hooked into buying homes that are already beginning to fall apart even before the new owners move in. This is a result, Sir, of federal legislation that was brought in a few weeks ago.

Our own minister here in Newfoundland stood in his place in this honourable House, Sir, when I put a question to him one afternoon during the oral question period and asked the minister if this province i~tended to go on with the legislation that had just been passed by the Government of Canada, which the provinces could either participate in or not patticipate in, offering the purchaser of that home a guarantee, the minister said, "Oh, no! We are not going to do that. Workmanship in Newfoundland;' he said,"is of such a high quality, there is no need of that.

We have good workers here." I have no doubt about that, Sir. I am not critizing the workers. Maybe they are driven to it. Maybe they have deadlines to meet. Maybe they have poor material to work with. The minister did not take that into account. The workers, Sir, could be experts - I have no doubt but they are - but when a contractor is putting up a half a dozen or a dozen homes, he probably could not care less most of the time for that 5959

May 13, 1974 Tape 1611 (Afternoon) PK - 1 matter how they are slapped together, Sir. He is driving his carpenters and driving his workers and buying the cheapest kind of material, Sir, buying the cheapest kind. I tell you I could take honourable members to some of the apartment buildings around this city, that borrowed the money from CMHC ~nd were suppose to be up to CMHC standards. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: The poorest quality material that you can get. You do not have to go too far from here either to find it. What happens? What happens when the consUD1er goes out and buys that home?

No fault of the workmen. The roof falls down, the windows are leaking, inferior quality windows. I had an experience with this myself and I know what I am talking about. I moved into a house over here not too far from here and one night it started to rain,about 2:00 A.M. ln the morning; I thought I was over by Niagara Falls. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 'MR. NEARY: No, Sir, this is a house that I bought, the first house I bought in this city. I thought it was Niagara Falls, Mr. Chairman.

I called up the gentleman that I bought the house from, he was also the builde~ and after arguing with me and much abuse on the phone and the children had to be rescued from their beds or they would be drowned, I finally got the gentleman over. Do you know what he did, Mr. Chairman? He hauled a ladder out of the back of his pickup and stuck her up against the house and he took an axe and he drove it down and made three or four holes in the roof. I thought he was going to beat the house up, The man was so mad with me and so dirty I thought he was geiing to beat the place up.

I was afraid to go out, afraid he might hit me with the axe. I finally had to get the roofers to come the next day to patch her up. After I argued with him for a few weeks I finally got away without having to pay for it. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible.

May 13, 1974 Tape 1611 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. NEARY: I do not know. Because he wanted the water torun away I suppose. She was leaking like a basket. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, it had something to do with the eaves. The water apparently- you know, I do not know wat it was but it had something to do with the eaves.Anyway he got up and he drove the axe right down through the roof in three or four places. How man:,• people have had that experience in this province, Mr. Chainnan? As I said a few moments ago, a growing number of Newfoundlanders are buying homes that are poorly constructed.

Every day that passes we are hearing of cases, Sir. I saw one on CBC Television there about ten days ago about a family that was complaining about this. They had no recourse, no protection whatsoever and yet that minister over there told us a fa• weeks ago that we did not aeed that kind of protection in Newfoundland, we did not need the guarantee that t~e Government of Canada were offering the poor old consumer.

I questioned it at the time, Sir, but during the oral question period,as Your Honour knows, the Speaker would shoot you down if you were to start any debate, I could not debate it tut I am going to debate it now and I am going to tell that minister that I think he was wrong. I think it was pretty poor judgement on the part of the minister and the administration to say that we do not need protection for the conswner in this province against bulging walls and leaky windows and crooked door frames and leaky basements and all sorts of other problems, Mr. Chairman, that any competent home inspection could turn up.

If there were penalties imposed against these people, Sir, they should be eliminated. So I would suggest to the minister, Mr. Chairman, in conclusion that he better get on the ball and protect our people against this kind of fraud against poor individuals who are buying a home probably for the only time in their lives. It is the biggest investment and they will never make in their lives and they deserve that kind of protection, Sir. I 5961

May 13, 1974 Tane 1611 (Afternoon) PK - 3 beg the minister to reconsider his position and the position of his administration on this matter because I think we need a guarantee against poor workmanship. No fault of the workers. Sir, I hope I will not be misunderstood. It is not the fault of the workers. Sometimes there are cases, Mr. Chairman, there are cases when carpenters, so-called carpenters,are employed and they are not carpenters. I know some case~ myself. Sir, this matter of housing is a pretty serious matter. So far, Mr.

Chairman, so far in this debate and it has been going on now for two or three days, I think it is time well spent. I think probably my colleage for St. Barbe North will have a few more - MR. F. B. ROWE: No, I could not get any answers. MR. NEARY: No, could not get any answers. We are finding it very difficult to get the answers, Sir. My colleagues are giving up, getting depressed. They are giving up, Sir. I am not going to give up, I am going to keep prodding, keep ploughing along to see if I can get some answers.

I hope when the minister stands now he will be able to give us some answers because maybe my colleague will take a little encouragement from his remarks, maybe see if we can pry a little information out of him. MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, having listened for the best part of a day and a-half session on this sort of thing I have come to the rapid conclusion that there is no need for the late Premier of the nrovince to come back. We have one developing who is very similar, rants on with a whole lot of stuff which sounds good but when you examine it it is ninety-eight per cent nonsense, the other two per cent doubtful.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to correct a few things which have been said. For instance, on this warranty programme which the Member for Rell Island goes into some pains and some trouble to say that I was opposed to it, Of course, as usual he i~ misquoting me completely. I did say that caution was needed in approaching a warranty progra11111e because actually our people, the housing neople, have attended several .. 9 '"'2 :., I 0

May 13, 1974 Tape 1611 (Afternoon) PK - 4 meetings with Ottawa officials, both on the Mainland and here, on this whole subject. It is not something that can be approached casually nor lightly. This was all that I was saying,that we wanted to see that it was a workable programme that could be handled properly and did not just succeed in setting up another bureaucracy that would not work. Actually the Member for Bell Island said that several provinces had this warranty system. We have checked on this and there is no province that has the warranty system yet.

Some of them are examining it but I think about the farthest one ahead is the wealthy Province of Ontario. I believe it is their intention to go it on their own whether the federal government comes in with it or not. But generally speaking we are as far ahead as any othey province in Canada in examining this. We have looked into it in detail. 1 think that there will be a warranty progr11111111e worked out in co-operation with the federal government but they are gradually changing their stride in this matter ~~c•~!_e they think that it is something which should be handled probably through Consumer Affairs.

This is where it stands at the present time. Now we are watching every step of its development to see just what sort of a programme can be brought up. We will be in a position as quickly as any other province to step right into this warranty programme if a proper system should be worked out. I was glad that the honourable member said that he was not criticizing local carpenters and local workmen because that in effect was what I said when I issued these few words of caution that in most cases here, with some exceptions but in most cases the workmanship is quite good. There is always a bad apple in every barrel.

There are some bad cases which need to be checked up on but in by far the majority of the cases the workman­ ship is quite as good as you will find in other parts of Canada. I think our carpenters and workmen are able to stand their own against their brothers anywhere on the North -American Continent. In fact I think that has beer. proven quite well by the fact that when they go to the Mainland and go 5963

May 13, 1974 Tape 1611 (Afternoon) PK - 5 to work on these jobs they generally prove themselves to be pretty good. Now on another subject which the honourable member mentioned and . that is this question of people buying up parcels of land and then forcing buyers to buy their building supplies from them. We area again ahead of the honourable member on this. His government did not do anything about it for twenty-three years but there iR on the Order Pnper, Motion No. 1n, a piece of legislation, bill No. 77 , which takes care of this completely.

When that bill comes up you will see we are doing just what the honourable member suggests. So we are ahead of him on that one. Garbage disposal seems to be a matter very dear to his heart. Actually this garbage question comes under my colleague here, the Minister of the Environment, the Honourable Member for Harbour Main. I oould tell the Hember for Bell Island that pretty extensive studies have been underway for a couple of years now on the whole question of garbage disposal to the effect that we now have a very - AN HON. MEMBER: Liberal Leadership Convention. !-Ill.

EARLE: Yes, we have a very detailed report on garbage disposal in the St. John's Urean Area. Actually twenty-one sites have been examined for a new garbage dump to take in the whole area. At the moment we are examining this report and will come up with what we hope to be and we know will be the best solution to all of it. But some of the larger centres on the Mainland have not been too successful in their recycling efforts. Recycling has proved not to be the answer in some of these places.

It is a pretty expensive process anyhow and I do not know if it is within our economic means to do it here but supposin~ it is we have to be absolutely sure before we go into it that it is the answer to garbage disposal. We think that possibly other methods might have to be tried rather than recycling,but we are looking at all aspects of it and as I say we will come up with the answer before long. ~964

May 13, 1974 Tape 1611 (Afternoon) PK - 6 Actually,just to refer once again to this question of people acquiring land and forcing buyers to buy their materials from them, I would just like to correct one misstatement that the honourable member made. He said, "This happened everywhere". It did not happen in the satelite city, in the Mount Pearl-Newtown. There was nothing of that nature which took place in there. This, of co•rse, is where we control the land and what happens thereafter. Now on Friday before the honourable member sat down he had a lot to say on what were suppose to be helpful suggestions.

They sounded good. They t~ould make quite good headlines in the paper but when you come to examine the suggestions which he made, in essence they were unworkable or if they were workable they would be so astoun di ngl y expensive that most certainly this province could not handle i t. I am quite sure the federal government would not be a partner to most of these thtngs. You know it is rather interesting that when the T1"11deau Government fell a few days ago,one of the items which were mentioned in the news report on what they fell on was their failure to cope with the housing situation in Canada.

This was mentioned frequently when the discussions on the fall of the government took place. It seems rather ironical that the powerful Liberal Government of Canada with the money that they have at their disposal could not solve the housing problem of Canada and for that reason went down to defeat,that and other reasons,

whereas the small and one of the poorer provinces, such as ourselves, is expected by the opposition to be able to handle this problem which has been with us not this year or last year or the last five year but it has been with us in growing crescendo, - increasing tempo for the lest twenty-five years. One of the remarks that the honourable Member for Bell Island made the other day was to the effect that these Atlantic built homes would be the answer to a lot of problems. Now I state quite categorically that I am not knocking Atlantic built homes; they are good and well constructed. They are good homes. They are being used in a G965

May 13, 1974 Tape 1611 (Afternoon) PK - 7 number of places around the island,by welfare officers and other people. As a matter of fact the government have been the biggest customer of that organization,by far. The Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation has bought in all some 252 of these units, so that we have had pretty good experience with Atlantic Design Homes. Particularly was this helpful in the time of the Harbour "Breton Disaster when we went down there and erected homes at a pretty fast pace to try and take care of some of the casualties that transpired in that oarticular fatality.

As an indication of price though, this is another question altogether. The honourable member states that these homes can be put down on a foundation for $16,900. To begin with, he is referring to the smallest type of these homes,which is only 864 square feet, a very small home. The basic price of $16,900 is only the beginning of the story. When you start to move one of these houses in and set it up of course a basement has to be dug out and made ready for it. There is exterior installations such as walks, steps, driveways,laterals and all this sort of thing that has to go with them.

There is the completion of the inside units.including basement stairs, rainting, sparkling, connecting of heating, plumbing, electrical. All of these are Rdditional. There is a minimum amount of landscaping but there has to be some,that depend of course on the customer and what he wants. There is the price of a serviced lot which in this area averages around $7,000. There is a survey and legal and financing charges which normally run bo about $1,000. So that $16,900 home. which I repeat is the smallest one,by the time it is completed and ready to be occupied - AN HON. MEMBER: Expired. HR.

EARLE: Expired - is $32,700 to put down here. That is not a cheap home. We think that we are providing homes for some of the lower income people in row housing. Row housing even today is costing,in St. John's, approximately $28,000, $29,000. The latest quotation I had from Corner Brook was $38,000 for four units in a row. AN HON. MEHBF:R: Inaudible. G96ti

May 13, 1974 Tape 1611 (Afternoon) PK - 8 MR. EARLE: Yea, I am coming to that after. That is all right. I am coming to the leasing question afterwards • All right ? But assuming that somebody is going to buy his own land and put it on it, I am giving the price of the whole set up, $32,000. Now the larger homes,which are 1,056 square feet and 1,340 iquare feet,these are the larger units, they would cost another $2,000 to $4,000 above that, so you are not getting a particularly cheap home. I also have found, I have been in a number of these homes and I do not know why but there seems to be some resistence to them.

I know in welfare officers homes that I have been into, they did not like them at all,for some reason. They could not give very good reasons. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. EARLE: Well I was in some they did not love and I was down in Goose Day and they did not love them1 but this is a matter of promotion on the part of the company. If the company can promote their homes and sell them and they are bargains, I would think that there would be a very ready market for them in the light of the present extremely high cost of homes,but for some reason that is not proving to be the case.

I do not know why it is but there must be some objection to them. Now I think possibly I have given some of the answers,that when everything is taken into consideration these are not such terrific cheap homes. They are not so very much below a standard built home. The honourable member brought up the question of leasing, the leasing of land. You would think that this is the first that we ever heard of leasing of land ,, During the past six months we have been looking into this whole question very thoroughly indeed .

Ass matter of fact, at one point in the game the federal government seemed to be very enthusastic about this idea of leasing land but reaently they have cooled off very considerably on it. They do not seem to favour it at all. We are beginning to determine the reasons for it, Ontario went into a modest leasing programme but it is only a fraction of the lands which they control. It is not being done on an arbitrarily large scale. I think that some of the reasons are this,that if you lease land you automatically of course tie up the capital. Now in this province, for 5967

!lay 13, 1974 Tape 1611 (Afternoon) PK - 9 instance i f we were to go all out for leasing an~~ do not su_how you could do anythin _p. else but ,P-O all out, you cannot go part •••ay. To explain that I mean to say; ti you went into a place say like Benton or Glenwood or somewhere like that and started to lease land you could not _p.o into one area like that and not aiake jt apply all over. I think you would have the hue and cry from all olacea il you just went selectively and tried to oick out a few places and do it.

The adjo inin g towns would immediately sav, t hat they are entitled to the same sort of a deal and of course they would insist on leased land. Well this would cost the government in land tied up "7hich normally they sell and get paid for over a neriod of years, by leasin g it, we would probably have to find a1>nroximately SL~ mil.lion a year for the land itself, to buy it outri~ht and lease it with a long term return on this. This 1s aoproximately how much land we would have out on lease .

Fifteen million dollars a year is money which we now use for further huilding pror,rammes and further land assembly nrogrammes. So= =uld he cutting back on the capital which we had available for housing generallv. Fifteen million dollars .-111a, not sound like a lot of money but it is a lot of money in a housi~g eff ort and more than we can afford to tie uo over long periods of time,and this would ~o on from year to yea r so it would not just be SIS million, the next year it "70uld be $30 million and G96~

May 13, 1974 Tape 1612 IB-1 $45 million and $60 million tied up over long periods of time. It would I think completely hamstring our land assembly programme. Another dangerous aspect of this is that if we got into this we would possibly also force all private developers into the same position of having to lease land. They would automatically tie their capital up just aa the govemment does. I think that the end result would be that we would find less and less land being developed rather than more and more.

Our primary objective today, as I stated in my comments on the Budget Speech, is that we are trying to acquire a large quantity of land to be able to put on the market to keep down the inordinate and outrageous speculation which is taking in land today. Now, the way to go at it is certainly not to tie up our capital so that we cannot develop any more land. We need to free up all the capital we can to develop land and try to give it to the customer at the best price we possibly can. Of co~rse there is the other rather inane suggestion that we give the land away.

I think anybody who stops to think that out would realize just how foolish that is. If we had more surplus than we knew what to do with, I suppose we could give land away but uo other province has been able to do it. The federal government has not been able to do it and I am quite sure that we cannot afford to do it. We work in partnership with the federal government on a ninety-ten or a seventy-five- twenty-five per cent deal in preparing this land.

If we were to have to finance the whole lot and give it away, I think our housing programme would be very, very small indeed because one can only give away so much and then one comes to an end, one _just cannot afford to carry on. So, all of these suggestions of the honourable member,in my opinion, Mr. Chairman, add up to complete chaos in the building industry if they were to be attempted. I would like to refer to the Kostaszek Report which he mentions. This Kostaszek Report,which was brought in I think in 1969. has been studied by our housing people. They are very familar with 5969

May 13, 1974 Tape 1612 IB-2 it. There is one openini sentence here in the reco11D11endations of the Kostaszek Report which the honourable member read. It is this; I will read from the report. It says, "There is no single over all, simple solution by which to rectify land development problems either here or in any other region in Canada. ¥~ny factors,such as demand, ability to purchase, geographic, social and economic conditions will vary from region to region. The requirements in one region may not necessarily coincide with those in another region.

Consequently programmes of land development must be flexible to meet the various basic regional requirements." Furthermore, later on in the report there were several recommendations made. The honourable member asked what we had done about any of them. "'Development of separate programmes for each region based on the following approach: "An increased emphasis on long term land development planning". This is one of Kostaszek's reco11D11endations. This is the emphasis which we have been laying for the past two years on long term land development.

The figures given in the Budget Speech this year show just what we are doing and what we are aiming at. This is completely in line with the recommendations of that Kostaszek Report. 'Development of green belts or land banks around urban centers " Exactly what is happening and what we are trying to do. Look at any of these town plans of what we are trying to develop in the areas. The satellite town out here is a perfect example. This has been developed complete with green belts.just as the Kostaszek report suggests. There is a rec011D11endation here for centralized authority for co-ordinating land development.

"Progress should be established by the Newfoundland Government.'' At the moment we have created a research division in the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. All of the items identified under that recommendation are the very things which this research division was set up to handle. They are studying these in detail. Hopefully they will be coming up to me with recommendations on each one of them. 5970

May 13, 1974 Tape 1612 IB-3 So it is silly and foolish to say that that particular report has been ignored. It certainly has not. The honourable gentleman concerned did a report for us on the reorganization of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, in fact the whole housing set up in Newfoundland,including the Corner Brook Housing Corporation, the St. John's Housing Corporation, the Metro Board and the whole thing. It was a very, very involved report. In fact it was so involved that we decided that it was premature.

There was another one done for the Newfoundland and Labrador Corporation by a firm called Eric Currie. That was a much more precise and sensible report in our opinion which does lend itself to the reorganization of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. At present that body is reorganizing itself along the lines suggested in that report. I think time will prove that that will develop a very good pattern for that organization. There were many other things mentioned which I cannot recall at the moment here.

On Friday I think I dealt with the major ones but there was one point made - I think this one was made by the honourable Leader of the Opposition in some remarks he made concerning the advisability of getting at our housing stock to find out what housing stock we had in Newfoundland. It was his suggestion that a body of memorial students should be sent out to tabulate and to do all of this and let us know where we stood. Frankly, I think it would be a complete waste of time.

The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation has at its disposal now more information than we can possibly digest on the housing situation in Newfoundland. In fact we could use probably five to ten times the money that will be available to us for many years to try to take care of the housing situation. To send a group of students out to do this kind of a job would just be an exercise in futility. As a matter of fact it would be worst than that because housing is a pretty scientific sort of game. One cannot just take a student out of a course in university and send him out.

He cannot tabulate housing like rows of pork and beans or cans of peas 5971

May 13, 1974 Tape 1612 IB-4 or something. He can say there are so many houses in a place and there they are. But there is so much to be known about a house; whether it is capable of repair. Can it be economically repaired? What state is it in? All this sort of thing. It is not just a simple job for a student to come out of college and go and examine a house. I do not think we would r,et a worthwhile report by doing it that way.

Actually here again our research division in the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation,which will consist of people experienced in housing, that know the quality of housing and know all about them , these are the people who will assess the housing situation in Newfoundland or what we require. I am quite confident that the information and recommendations that I will get from these people will be far more valid and of far more value than would come from any group of students who are casually send out in the country just to tabulate houses. So, Mr.

Chairman, these are my few remarks on these particular items. Now, I am prepared to answer any other items as we go through my estimates here. If there be anything that I missed, I shall be happy to try to answer it. MR. F. ROWE: Hr. Chairman, I spent the best part of an hour on Friday morning, from 12:00 to 1:00 o'clock asking a great nwnber of questions relating to the minister's department. I apologize to the committee for not being here in the afternoon to listen to the answers to some of these questions. AN HONOURABLE !IDffiER: There were no answers. MR. F. ROWE: There were no answers? Well, Mr.

Chairman, I will not waste the time of the committee in rephrasing or again asking these particular questions. However, there are a couple of questions that I did ask him. If the minister did in fact answer them, I shall accept t.is word and read it in the verbatim reports of the House of Asse.mbly. I would like to return to this development control division of the Department of t'unicipal Affairs and Housing and ask the minister 5972

~.ay 13, 1974 Tape 1612 IB-5 what improvements have been made with respect to the administration of that particular division and what improvements have been made with respect to granting more manpower to the development control division and getting the people, the personnel of the development control division. into the field and spread more throughout the province and cutting down on the size of the jurisdiction under any particular development control division such as the one on the West Coast that covers from Port aux Basques to Bay Verte right up to St.

Anthony7 Now, if the minister should have answered that question, I shall await the report of the verbatim report and I shall read it but if he has not answered that question specifically, I should appreciate an indication of the improvements that we can expect within the development control division.

The other question that I asked that I feel I should relate to once again is this whole business of awaiting of this Royal Commission Report on Regional Government because communities in rural Newfoundland are in a complete state of chaos with respect to making representation for the purpose of getting water systems or water supply systems into their communities. They are in a complete state of chaos with respect to building in these particular co1J1Dunities. They are in a state of chaos with respect to what they should do in order to get summer and/ or winter maintenance of their roads.

The Rural Development Associations in these areas are doing a fine job now,l feel,in trying to get the various communities under their particular jurisdictions to work together. However, confusion still does exist. I think something should be done immediately to try to get some form of regional government in the various sectors of our province, in rural Newfoundland. If we continue on with the situation that we have at the present time, these communities shall continue to fall far behind the larger incorporated communities that we do have in the province.

I am thinking specifically - I couJ.d use many examples from my own district where we have thirty communities with only three incorporated. The other twenty-seven are unincorporated and are somewhat directionless and guardless with respect to getting government 5973

May 13, 1974 Tape 1612 IB-6 funds. The last point, Mr. Chairman, I would like to - a little bit of order in the committee or out in the corridors, Mr. Chairman. There is an awful racket coming from that side. Thank you very much! The last point I would like to ask or make, ~r. Chairman, is this whole business of water services in unincorporated connnunities. Now, I note that the vote this year for co1!11llunity water services - presumably this is for unincorporated col!llllunities - comes to a total of $600,000.

Now, in my own district where there are approximately at least twenty-two requests for water supply systems, I have been provided with a list of communities that have had the final design completed for the installation of these water supply systems. This total comes to $304,000, closer to $305,000 which is more than half of the total vote for community water services in unincorporated communities in Newfoundland and Labrador. Would the minister be prepared to table or indicate to this committee, Mr.

Chairman, the total list of unincorporated communities in this province for which preliminary designs have been completed? And give the committee some indication of the total estimate, the requirement estimate,if we can put it that way, for the installation of water supply systems in the unincorporated communities of Newfoundland and Labrador? Did the minister get the exact nature of my question, Mr. Chairman? Is the minister prepared to table a list of all the communities in this province for which preliminary and final designs have been done?

Could the minister give the total cost estimate for the communities within the province and give us some indication of the total amount of money required compared to the amount of money that is available? Because, Mr. Chairman, I was kind of concerned when I was asked to list off for the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing a priority list for the communities of my district that require water. As I mentioned on Friday, there are fourteen communities here for which final designs have been completed. Every col!llllunity indicated there needs water.

The same types of people live in these connnunities and water is water. There is no way under the sun, Mr. Chairman, that I G974

May 13, 1974 Tape 1612 IB-7 can establiBh any criteria that I can use to indicate to the minister's department what ones of these communities have a higher priority over others for the supply of water. I do not have the facilities of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing with me. How am I supposed to be able to indicate to the minister what coDID!unity requires water more than another? Therefore, I put this question to the minister: What criteria does the minister or his department or the officials of this department intend to use?

What criteria or what rationale does the department intend to use in order to designate which communities in this province will receive money for the purpose of the installation of water supply systems in these unincorporated communities? Or does the minister have enough money voted to take care of all these particular needs? I feel that this is a very important question.

I find it very difficult to believe that in one of the smallest districts in this province the preliminary cost est:lluate for the installation of water systems that have the design completed is over half of the total amount voted for the whole province. If this be characteristic of the other rural communities or districts of this province, I would suggest that we shall have to wait a great many more years before we see the installation of these water systems in these rural communities.

I cannot help but trace back to the great programme that was started under the Department of Community and Social Development back in the declining years of the Liberal Administration,when a great programme of at least the provision of money was provided for the installation of such water services. I conceded to the minister and I am fair enough to concede this, that I think it partially fell down because of the supervision at the local level. Probably the department could take some responsibility for not insuring that the proper supervisory methods were used during the installation of these water systems.

As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, my opponent in the last election in St. Barbe North was one of the very individuals who took such great pride in administering the installation of the water supply 5975

l~ay 13, 1974 Tape 1612 IB-8 systems in the district. At the time of the campaign they were frozen solid and they have ceased to operate and function since that time. So, we have had a great expenditure of money. We have had a start. We have had to wait two years now before we have had sizable votes in this particular area.

I would like for the minister to indicate the total preliminary cost of the supply of water systems in all the communities, the unincorporated communities in this province and give us some indication of what the need is and how it compared with the amount that the minister's department has vcted under community water services. ?-!R. EARLE: Mr. Chainnan, there are a number of questions there. I will deal with the last one first, the water services in small communities . I have a detailed list here , consisting of six or eight pages , of places where either a request has been made or work has been done.

For instance the honourable member who asked the question, in his district, St. Barbe North, there have been systems, I think in Anchor Point, Black Duck Cove, Blue Cove, Bird Cove, Big Bay and St. Barbe, Plum Point, Pond Cove, Pigeon Cove. There have been requests from Wild Bight, Eear Cove, Barr'd Harbour, Savage Cove, Norman's Cove , Pine Cove, Caster River South , Green Island Cove, Caster River North,Ferolle Harbour, Forresters Point, Green Island Broo k , Lower Cove, Shaol Cove East, Eddies Cove East. tiow. that is a pretty good example of the sort of thing we have from many districts.

We have a great list of applications. I think if the honourable member want an accurate costing on this, he should place the question on the Order Paper because it will take us some time to get the whole thing. I have not got the costing on all this before me today because I suppose many of them quite possibly have not even been costed here. Ai.~ HONOURABLE ME~IBER: Inaudible. l1R. EARLE: Well, we cannot give an accurate cost on many of these applications where the costing has not been worked out, G97o

it would be impossible but I would say in a general way that it would be a pretty accurate comparison with the overall programme of water and sewer throughout the island. I said the other day in my opening remarks that a year ago this was estimated to cost $250 million to be able to do all the places that we wanted to do and should do. That is probably nearer $300 million today at today's inflated costs. I should think the small water systems would be in proportion to that and it might run somewhere up to $100 million if we were to do them all.

Now the total amount that we should, if we had the money and the engineering people available this year what we could do on the most pressing cases in water and sewer,apart from the small systems,would total something over $30 million. We are not going to be able to do anything like that and similarily we are not going to be able to reach, only a percentage of the small water systems for which we have applications. I do not know at this stage just what the percentage will be but it will only be a proportion of them.

I do not know what the point of the question is really because it is just as well to ask for the details and costing of all the water systems in all the province including the large ones. It would probably take you a year to figure out the accurate costing on all of these,to get down to a proper figure. By the time you got around to doing them the price would have doubled. This would be the same thing that will apply on these smaller systems; by the time any government can get around to doing them the price may have doubled or tripled. So present figures are not of any great value in something like that.

Now to come back to tne honourable member's remarks on the services within the department and spreading regional government: This is our objective. I stated the other day that we now have two regional offices established,one in Corner Brook and one in Gander. We have the directors appointed for these and they will have seven or eight on staff in each place. This is just a beginning on spreading the regional control of all functions 5977

May 13, 1974 Tape 1613 (Afternoon) PK - 2 of a department including development control throughout the province. We have to pick up the staff. We have a certain number authorized now but not sufficient to do a thorough job.but hopefully we will increase. We have made quite a good start in getting authorization for staff this year and these will gradually spread out into the province and actually we wiJ 1 be able to do a better job. So I think the TJhole idea of regional government is begin n ing to take shape. Actually we are not waiting for the report of the Whelan Royal Commission.

I said the other day I was disappointed that we had not yet received this and we are not going to receive it probably until the middle of June. But we have taken the initial steps ourselves in setting up these regional offices and we intend to expand these. I expect that will be one of the major recommendations of the Whelan Report. So hopefully we will grow but we cannot accomplish something like this overnight. There is no way we can do it. To begin with the qualified people are not available. We will get what we can and start up with what we can.

This is the function of our department which will grow,! think fairly rapidly. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Shall 1901 carry? MR. F. B. ROWE: I am sorry to have to reask the question but the minister did miss the point of my last question entirely. I did not ask the minister for a cost estimate of supplying water systems to every unincorporated colTllllunity or every incorporated community in Newfoundland. What I asked the minister was for a preliminary cost estimate for the unincorporated communities in Newfoundland for which preliminary or final designs have been completed by the minister's department.

Now I find it remarkedly coincidental that the minister was able to run right through every community of my district - just happened to run through that list which I happen to have here in front of me at the present time. AN HON. 1 MEHRER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE , F. B. Right. And presumably the minister must have the same 5978

May 13, 1974 Tape 1613 (Afternoon) PK - 3 information on the other districts and presumably the minister must have the total cost, preliminary cost estimate for these particular water systems. This was the simple question that I was asking the minister because, Mr.

Chairman, the Committee wants to know and the people of Newfo\Dldland want to know what th~ need is, which the minister said he could not indicate. lt is probably up in the order of $30 million or $40 million but the CollDDittee certainly wants to know what the total preliminary cost estimate is for the designs that have been completed, in order that we can get some indication of how far the minister's department is going toward installing these water lines compared with the number that have had a cost estimate established for them. So this is all that I am asking the honourable minister.

WhP~ is the total preliminary cost estimate for the preliminary designs throughout the province? MR. EARLE: There are a great many here that have not been costed but the one on which preliminary design have been done,! am told it costs approximately $20 million. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. EARLE: Well here it is, the $600,000 may look pitiful but it was $300,000 two years ago, it was $435,000 last year, $600,000 this year: So to do a little bit of arithmetic, I think by the year 2050 we will be up somewhere near what we need. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Shall 1901-01 carry? MR. M.

MARTIN: Because the time is getting short,! am not going to elaborate on these questions and conments. I will just run through them quickly to see if the minister would like to give us a few replies on them. First of all, I would like to say a few words in support of the collll1lents made and the request made by the honourable Member for Labrador West as we closed off last week, when he made a plea for government help in getting housing in his district. I may say, Mr. Chairman, that this, I think as he suggested,affects every district of this province. I know 5979

May 13, 1974 Tape 1613 (Afternoon) PK - 4 of several incidents in my own district where people had gone up to work in Labrador West and had to return because they could not find suitable housinp,. Now I think it would be a good investment if government were to get into this kind of thing because by allowing people to go and take up employment there, thereby taking them off the welfare and unemployment insurance roles, it is an easing of the burden on the public purse anyway.

Dealing with administration; I would like to know with regard to the regional offices whether or not the field staff there have any authority or whether they are just simply channels of communication because decentralization of government certainly does not work unless those offices decentralize, have officials with authority to act rather than ju,st pass information back and forth between the people in the communities and the department. In that respect too, I would like to say that far too little visiting is being done by departmental officials, certainly to my district.

A large part of the problem is because they are afraid to be caught overnight in a Labrador Coastal community where conditions are so primitive that they might not have the same kind of efficiency that they have at home. We are certainly not being represented on the coast. I would like to know what the government's policy is toward housing in rural areas,whether or not it is being promoted or whether it is simply there as a programme that people have to search out and try to make applications for as best they can.

With reference to the recently announced federal programme on Rural and Native Rousing, I would like to point out to the minister that nreliminary surveys indicate on the Coast of Labrador a need for approximately 3,000 units. Now this is just a preliminary survey. This is being held up because the federal government cannot act until representation is made by the province. I did find out also that in British Columbia 7,000 units have already been authorized,in Alberta 5,000 units. There is a chance that we might get some assistance from G930

May 13, 1974 Tape 1613 (Afternoon) PK - 5 the federal government if the provincial government were to act in this respect. One comment on housing in the north, perhaps this is true of all rural areas but I certainly know it to be true in my district.

It is an interesting fact that when government goes in to build houses there is a great difference between the housing that is provided for officials of government and those that are provided for coDD11on citizens, for instance, houses that are provided for say welfare recipients- Perhaps I am speaking outside of the minister's jurisdiction, maybe this should be directed towards Public Works but I will mention it anyway. Oftentimes houses built for these people are built without foundations, in fact, there are no barriers underneath the house to prevent the wi,_,~ ;1J.owing up around.

They are not built with any bathrooms, in many casE $ ~ot even space made for bathrooms. On the other hand houses built for government officials are done with water supplies and septic tanks and the whole bit. There is a great area of discrimination there• I think somebody should take hold of it very soon. Local government - again I would like to know what the policy is toward local government administration.

Whether or not the department is actively promoting the establishment of local government or if it is in fact discouraging it as we have reason to suspect in certain cases, particularly with those coDD11unities with a very small and stable population . Is there a minil!IUl!I number of population beyond which or lower than which the government will not consider incorporating? Because if this be the case then it is again discrimination.

There are certain conununities in my district which are very, very small, which have no hope of having a significant increase in population in the near future but are nevertheless permanent. AN HON. MEMBER: Black Tickle. MR.MARTIN: Black Tickle for one, Rigolet, Paradise River. Now a lot of the reason why we have problems in cODD11unities,with regavd to servicing roads, water lines and this kind of thing,is because in the initial stage there has been no planning and growth has gotten out 5931

May 13, 1974 Tape 1613 (Afternoon) PK - 6 of hand and when it comes time to put in water lines or roads then instead of having to put in a-half a mile to service twenty-five or thirty or forty or fifty houses, you find you have to go seven or eight miles. I believe if local government were encouraged at the early stages and if all the assistance were given to local communities to do adequate municipal planning that a lot of money could be saved in the future. On water - the h~nourable Member for Bell Island mentioned delivery of water by water tank is not good enough.

I agree but, Sir, even the water delivery by water tank would be perfectly good enough for us in many, many co11D11unities, most of the communities in my district. We had a request last year for a water delivery vehicle for the Community of Cartwright. The decision was finally put off until navigation closed at which time it was too late