Volume XL Friday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable P.]. McNicholas Number 10 25 March 1988

The House met at 10:00 a.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNichola~: Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, on February 3 of this year, I participated in a joint announcement with th~ Secretary of State,, the hon. David Crombie, concerning a funding agreement for cost-shared projects totalling $140,000 to reduce the illiteracy rate in our Province. This funding was only for the period from February 3 -March 31, 1988. We are pursuing additional funding through the budgetary process.

I would like to make that comment, because the announcement was criticized by the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Decker) who said the funding was insignificant and not enough. IncliJded in the projects, approved through this funding, is the establishment of an office of literacy policy within my department. To date, we have appotnl:ed as Literacy Policy Advisor, Mr. Wayne Taylor, who uli.ll assume his position on Apri.l. 4 of this year. Today, Mr.

Speaker, I wish to inform han. members that I have sent letters to various • organizations around the Province in viti ng them to participate in a number of regional workshops, organized by my de,partment to L494 March 25, 1988 Vol. XL develop a unified strategy for improving adult literacy in Newfoundl•nd. The workshops will bring together representatives of groups, agencies, and government departments, in a forum of mutual consultation on literacy. The overall goal of the workshops, Mr.

Speaker, will be tb affirm, enhanCE! and link those engage,d in the planning and deltvery of adult literacy programmes in the Province i.n order to launch a collaborative effort between the publ.tc and private sectors to combat the problem of adult illiteracy. War k shops '"·ri.ll be held at: Central Community College, Grand Falls Campus, April 6; Avalon Community ColJ.ege, ·St. John's Campus, April 8; Western Communi\:y College, Stephenville Campus, April 13; and Labrador Community College, Happy Valley Campus, April 14. Mr.

Speaker, in order to ensure regional input, representatives from various groups and agencies in each re!gion are bedng invit.E!d. Part t c t pant: s of the work s hop t~..ri.11 help formulate a provincial plan of action wi.Lh respect to needs assessment, promotional strategies, and professional development and training, with a view toward the establishment of a communications network among i. n t ere s ted g r o u p s , a g e n d. e s , a n d the Department of Career Development and Advanced StiJdies. The role that each group will play will also be identified.

Nominations for membership in a Ministerial Advisory Council on Literacy will be solicited . A senior official of my department will be in attendance to give the:.'! background to this initiatiVE! and No .. 10 R494

___ .. _________ -- .......... ........ --- -- · ··---·---~~- --· ·-·........,__ ____ - the government 1 s commitment to proactive sol.uti.ons to the problem of adult illiteracy involving the public and private sectors. Mr. Speaker, this is t.he fi.rst. step towards the development of a provincial policy on literacy. Based on the policy recommendations resulting from these consultations, meetings will be held IJJith teachers and tutors and with the most important group of all, users of the programmes.

Follow up with literacy students will be of prime importance and will be the major focus of the next phase of this consultative process. Mr. Speaker, t.hi.s is anot.:!1er indication of my Department 1 s commitment to dealtng wi.th thA problems of adult illiteracy in our Province and a very important step in helping increase the educational levels of undereducated adults. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Strait of Bell Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, adult illiteracy is an issue which has been highlighted over the past number of months, and rightly so we all agree.

Now there has been some confusion over the actual percentage but the fact is, here i.n Newfoundland we have the highest rate of illiteracy in Canada today. So any act.i.on wh"i.ch this government decides to take is by no means too early; tbi.s should have been taken quite sometime ago, beforE! IJJe found our·selv("'S in Ud s si i:uation. L495 March 25, 1988 Vol XL Now, 'back on February 3, as the Minister poi.nts out, they d:id issue a Ministerial Statement. In fact, I have a copy of it rtght here. It talks about thE! $140,000, but it says nothtng about a OnE! month period.

TherE' is nothing about one month at all . This was their so 1 uti on to the problem, $140; 000, and they named seven different things which they intended to do, et t~her one of which could have eaten up the whole $140, 000. What happened ts they jumped on the bandwagon IJJithout planning, Mr. Speaker. In their normal way, the'y reacted to crises. They jumped on the bandwagon to try to make a few pol.it.i.cal points and they IJJE!re shot down for it. They haVE! learned that $140,000 is not enough. I told them that when they mr:-ld8 the statement..

I t.old them that in The Evening Telegram a couple of days later: 1 The illiteracy grant is tokenism 1 , says Lib(,1ral MHA. 1 The $140,000 was tokenism. I stand up and I admit that, and they have learned their lesson. Now, the Minister is going for extra money and I IJJish him J.r~ck, because this issue is so big it requires extra money. I wish h::lm 1 u c k , and I wi 1 J. do any t h t n g I can to help him when he goes to h:is colleagues, who do not seem to haue the same concern as he allE,gedly has. They have lE,arned their lesson. I hope he gets more money so that he can address this probJ.em.

But to the han. Minister and to the other Minister of Education - education has been split up so much there are two, probably three - and to the party as a who1e I say that an ounce of prevention .is rnor& important tn this matter than having to attack the symptom No. 10 R495

afterwards. The symptom is there, let us attack it, but let us bring in a solution so that twenty years from now we will still not have the highest illiteracy rate in this CotJntry. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LONG: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han. the member for St. John's East. MR. LONG : Mr. Speaker, I welcome the statement inasmuch as the minister has finally come into the House and given some indication of what his department is intending to do. It is a very critical issue, which many people in the Province are very concerned about.

Sadly, I would say, the statement is not good enough and the programme that he describes is certainly not enough to address the problem. I 1.uelcorne the appointment of t.:he policy advisor, Mr. Taylor, whom I happen to know is a very competent individual with a strong record of community education in the Community College out ·at Stephenville. But I am afraid that what the minister has described here today is simply a consultative process among the agencies to develop a programme.

It is not until the last sentence or two of the minister's statement that there is any reference to the users of the programme, and reference to follow-up with literacy students. What we are seeing here is another attempt, with a minimal amount of funds being made available by the government, $140,000, to take more L496 March 2 5, 1 9 8 8 Vol XL ·:. time to examine the problem and discuss delivery of prograrnrnE!S.

What the government needs is to put in place a programme to r each people in this ProvinCE! who nE!E!d assistance in learning to read and write, and beyond learning to read and write need a full programme of consciousness raising, awarenE! s s of the world around them. Al1 kinds of programmes E!Xist in the rest of the country which pe op le ha ve put in place to help peop l e a ddress t he illiteracy probl em. I am so r r y to say , M r.

Spea ke r, that what the ministe r has put befo r e us to da y is not going to go very far, an d it is going to be a long time yet before we ca n ha ve some indication of a comrni tment from goUE!rnrnent to put in place a comprehensive programme. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR . RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . minister of Environment and Lands. MR. RUSSELL: Mr . Speaker, I arn VC-;!ry pleasl?.d to announce that there is a new publication of the old familiar wall map of our Province. This new map, pr:in ted at a scale of 1 - 500,000, is published by the Department of Environm e nt and Lands.

Previously, maps of this size were published by the f ederal governmE!nt, but they haVE! now discontinued publ :i. shing these maps. This map is an up-to-date issue which shows thE! revisions of thr:~ provincial . electoral boundaries and includes most forest acc e ss roads. It al s o depicts the provincia} wildernE!SS areas and shot.us the extent of recE!nt hydro developments in the Province. No. 10 R496 .·

·- -~-- - ·~ ---· · ... -·---. .. -··· ... _.._.._ .. .... ----··--·- .. ··· ··"'- • --···- ... -· ... --.... -- ------·--·---- ····-- ----- - -~··- -·--·- These revisions were carried out by lhe Depart.tnc-:lnt of Geography of Memorial University and are a good :indication of i:he level of local expertise and technology that is available here. I would also like to point out that staff in the Mapping Division of my Department are considering the creation of a new map of Labrador as well, and a map which will show the Island part of the Province and Labrador at the same scale and on one sheet. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I have arranged to send a copy of this new may to each member of the House. Copies for anyone interested are available from the Mapping D i vi s i. on of i·: he La n d s B ran c h of the Department of Environment and La'nds, Ho1.o.Jley Bu-ilding, Higgins Line. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr . Speal< er . MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, it is on days like this that I long for a former time, when Ed Roberts IJJas in the HoL~se, because on an occasion like this he l.o.Jould say, 1 There l.o.Jill be dancing in the streets of Northeast Crouse tonight over that great map announcement. 1 The map is a good idea. MR. DTNN : • Where is he now? SOME HON. MEMBERS: L497 March 25, 1988 Vol XL Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: The map is a good idea. I may not convince the gentleman for Pl.easantv:i .lle (Mr. Dinn), but the map is a good idea I say to him. Mr .

Speaker, the statement. says the department is considering listen to the warning considering the cre!ation of a map of Labrador. Well, bully for them! They have not made their minds up yet, but they just might do a map of the other part of this Province, the same old l:ip service, the same old second- -class treatment you get from that crowd all the time about Labrador. And they are going t:.o ~ave it on one sheet, by the! way, all on the same shE!et; maybe on l:.tJ.JO s:l.des, m:ind you, so that they do not haVE! to look at Labrador too often. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) so you can read it. MR.

SIMMONS: The wit amaze ·s mE! this morning, Mr . Speaker. Finally, Str, he says it. is an up-to-dat.:e map. Well, I 1.1.Jant to have a look at it first, because I have two teJ.ltale tests to determine whether it is up-to-date. If Round Pond Road :is on it, as all paved roads should be - MR. MATTHEWS: And H and R Block, right? MR. SIMMONS: No, the other one, Mr. Speaker, is if that publtc money tncinerator in Mount PearJ., which grows cucumbers as a sideline, ts on it. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker . No. 10 R497

., -..... ~ MR. SPEAKER: '. The han the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, IAJe also welcome the update of the map of the Island portion of the Province. Three or three and a half years ago, when I first came i~to the House, I put a map up on the 1.uall. The most recent. one IAJe had was from 1975, so I think from 1975 to 1988 is probably a considerable length of time to go without an updRte of the map. Mr.

Speaker, I would really encourage the minister to look at the Labrador one, because the rnos t: current one we can get for ~abrader is dated back in the 19 50s, and, quite frankly, it did not even have the changes that occurred to Labrador after the SmalllA.Iood reservoir carne "in. So, rather than just thinking about a Labrador map, I would ask the minister to make a commitment to get it finished as soon as possible so that it, too, is brought up to date.

I also approve heartily of the idea of having both parts of OIJr Province on the same sheet and in proportion, so that we can finally get it through people's minds that Labrador is, in terms of geography and landmass, a part of the mainland of Canada with a small isJ.and attache!d to :i.t. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am doing this under L498 March 25, 1988 Vol XL . ... . • _,. ·- .. ·-· .I.. .. Statements by Ministers. I will only be three SE!COnds.

I have a kit here for the Leader of t: he Opposition and for the Leader of the NDP Party, pictures of t h E!fn and cucumbers and tomatOE!S taken the other night . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. DECKER : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The han. t:ht:~ mt:~mber· for· the Strait of Belle Isle . MR. DECKER : Mr. Speaker, dismay of Education (Mr . hon. the Transportation rny question, to the Min:i.ster Hearn), is for Minister (Mr . Doyle). the of th e of The minister is problem - aware of thE! MR. DOYLE : I cannot hear . MR. DECKER: It is not my fault, Mr. SpeakE!r, he cannot hear.

The minister is a1.1.1ar(:1 of thE! proble!m with snow clearing on thE! tip of the Gr'(:1i'.lt Nort.h~:!rn Peninsula. He has heard the horror stories about the school in Noddy Bay which has been closed for twenty-three days because of road conditions . He has heard about babies being born in the ambulance on the way to the hospital blocked in the snow banks. He has heard about the Raleigh Ship Cove road being blocke!d. HE! has heard about Cooks No. 10 R498

·. ··:- .. . • ..,., • . • I •'" • • .... ~------ ... -~ -- ·-- ___ ___.,_ ~ ·- - ··~---~-- --........~ ...... -··- _ .. ___ . --- ------ Harbour road being blocked. He has head about L' Anse-aux-MeadoiAJs being blocked. The minister gets up and blames it on the back-to-back snowstorms as if this were a different Winter. I ask th(,1 minister IAlhen does he plan to stop trying to justify the department's ineptitude and address the real problem on the Northern Pen'inSijl.a, which is not enough equipment? The equipment which is already there is old. There is a machine up there twelve years old.

And there must be two shifts in order to clear up the snow. When is the minister going to address that problem instead of trying to blame it on the weather, which is normal weather for this time of the year· on the Northern Peninsula? It has been like it since the world began. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportal:ion. MR. DOYLF. : Mr. Speaker, I am glad the han . m€:Hnber as l<~~d me that quc-?.sti.on, because it gives me the opportun:i.t.y to explain fully what we are doing on the tip of the Northern Peninsula.

The fact is the problem is that we are operat'ing in that area this year, an area that has been plagued by back-to-back snowstorms, on the tip of the Peninsula. our operations out of Cooks Harbour and St. Anthony have 213 kilometers of road to maintain and to clear and to keep passable. You have to understand, Mr. Speaker, that it is a very, very, extremely IAlindy area, and on a number of occasions, over thE! last few we.eks, we have had to take Oljr L499 March 2 5 , 1 9 8 8 Vol XL equipment off to do hAlO or Sometimes you fc,1et. of road thE! Peninsula half an ho1.1r' again.

So we ver·y extr€:1mel.y the road, as we had three mornings ago. will ope!n up fifty dol.•.m on l:he tip of and in less than it 'i. S a J.l b 1 OIAII'l in are operating in a ul.indy area. Now, to get down to eq1Jipment, Mr. Speaker, we do have quitE! an extensive-?. amount of equipment and employees operating in that are!a. We have thirty-eight employees out of the Cooks Harbour unit., and we have fifteen employees out of . the St. Anthony unit. I think we haVE! something like twenty-one or twenty-two employe!es. We haVE! an extra four· mechanics gone to that area.

We have twenty-eight or twenty-nine, pieces of equipment. . We have an additional eight or nine snoiAlbloiJJer·s gone doiJJn to the area along with the equipment that we already have at Cooks HarboiJr and St. Anthony. We havt~ the airport p1Jt on alert and they have three snowblowers down there. ·rhey have indicated to us as well that they wtJ.J. rnakE· t:hat equi.pment ava:il.able to us i.n emergency situations. But WE! do have qutte amo1n1t of equipmE!nt down there, Mr. Speaker, more than any other area of the Province right now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . DECKER : Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, a supplementary. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker~ as t.h~~ rninister is showing in this House he is noiAI becom·i.ng familiar with IAlhat :i.s No. 10 R499

happeni.ng up there. He is a net.AJ minister in this department, and he is finally becoming familiar . Of course, it is the windest part of the Province. We know that. We have known that for years. Now the minister knows it. They know it, Mr. Speaker.

Now I am asking the minister in light of this revelation - he is admitting that thirty-eight people in Cooks Harbour is not enough; he is admitting that there is not enough people up there, and we know that is the minister, now that he knows the problem, aware of the problem as he IAJas not before, i.s he not prepared today to accept that the t:ip of the Nort: h~1 rn Peninsula must be given special considerat ·i.on t.dhen it come s to snow clearing? It cannot be treated like t he rest o·f the Province, it must be given special consideration.

Especially, there must be two shifts of employees; if not three, there must. at least . be tv.1o. Is he prepared today to start treating the tip of the Northern Peninsula different from the rest of this Island? MR . DOYLE : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The' hon. the Minister of Transportation . MR. DOYLE : Mr . Speaker, we are very, very IA.Jell aware of the probl.E:1m. As a matter of fact what I have been do t ng over the l.Rst couple of weeks on a daily basis is contacting the Area Manager, Mr .

Dwyer, getting an update on a daily bas.is, ever·y s"i.ngle di:'IY to ensure that that everything poss-i.bl.e is bedng done to alleviate the' problems. As I ':indicated to the hon. genl: lE:1rnan a moment. ago, we have an awful lot LSOO March 25, . 1988 Vol XL .4 .. . .. . . . ... :,.. of eq LJ ipment i n tha ·t a r ea .

As i t happ ens yo u c ou l d ha ve anot he r fift y or hunderd pieces of e qu i pme nt down there a nd i t wo ul d not ma ke an y di ffe r ence at al l , because we are operating und e r very adverse and extreme weather conditions, and very extrE!ITIE!ly IJJindy weather conditions, which makes it impos~ible sometimes to keep the equipment on the road. So, Mr. Speaker, everything possible is being done. I know it is frustral:::lng for the people of the area, but I would ask thE!ITI to be patient and to alloiJJ the IJJork to proceed as quickly as we can get J t done . MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Gander . MR. BAKER: I have a question for the PrE!Inier concerning the Terra Nova Te l situation . On thre 'e prE,vious occasions I indicated to the Premier by letter my concern concerning protection under Term 31 of the Terms of Union.

The Premier responded, not really to me but to the Gander Town Council, IJJit.:h a partial explanation wherein he stated that there is really no pr·otect.'ion under Term 31 for two things : One IAJas the contirwed existence of that business as a Crown corporRtion and, secondly, no protection in terms of h(.;! adquartar·s . t he Prern:i.E:1r IAIOUld he IJJOUld arrange a briefing or giv~ his approval for a brief i ng by the Department of Justice officials I ask No. 10 R500 •• ::--!

-.. •: ·-· t. · .. ....... ~- - -':· --.. -·- ... --·-··---· ------- ~-·-- ···-- "--~- .. ..... - and latJJyers to explain to me and to go over i:he reasons behind the statements that the Premier made? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PF.CKFORD: Mr. Speaker, this falls into same category as the Newfoundland Railway. I did have a meeting with a number of counci.llors representing the Gander Town Council, the Deputy Mayor and a number of others. And subsequent to that I had a meeting with representatives of the employees of Terra Nova Tel.

I have communicated td them the opinion from our Justice Department that th~re is no constitutional protection under the Terms of Union for· Terra Nova T e 1 . In other words , it. can legally and constitutionally be sold. It comes under Term 31, I guess, and Term 33 in the same way as the rai ltAJay does: At the date of union, so soon thereafter as practicable, Canada will take over. It i.s not very di.fficult, Mr·.

Speaker. 1 Canada will take over the following services and will, as from the date of Union, relieve the Pr·ov:i.nce 1 that 1.1.Jas onE:~ of the big concerns of the government of the day because the railway was in debt at the tirne of Confederation and it was a big financial burden on the Province - 1 of the public cost incurred in respect of each service taken over. 1 And, of course:

a) the Newfoundland Railway, including steam-ship and other marine services; the Newfoundland Hotel, if requested by the government of the Province of Newfoundland within six months; postal and publicly-owned telecommunications services; civil aviation, L501 March 25, 1988 Vol XL including Gander Airport; customs and exc"ise; defence; protection and encouragement of fisheries and operation of bait services; lighthouses, fog alarrns. 1 You see, Mr. Speaker, the thing that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Wells) and some rnember·s opposi.te do not realize; with Terra Nova Tel and the Net~Jfoundland RailtJJay, is that if we had all of the pr·otect.ion that the Leader of the Opposition says we have from the Terms of Union, hotJJ come IJJe have not got all of these lighthouSE!S and fog alar·ms and buoys, 1 marine hospitals, quarantine and the car•e of ~hip-wrecked crews; public radio broadcasting systems; and other public services 1 • And then,

Section 33 even talks about ·bait depots and the motor v e s s e 1 Ma 1 a k off and i t a 11 c om e s under the same th:ing mtlitary and naval property and so on. I would very much like to get that legal opinion from the other side, because if thE! Leader of the OpposH:·ton hds a legal opj.nJon on the raiJ.way, then he also, bE!Cause i.t corn~~s under' the · sarn(o~ section, has a legal opinJ.on which demonstrates that Terra Nova fel ts publicly owned by the Government of Canada and cannot be sold. It is undE!r the same pro vi. s ion n ou.J . MR. BAKER : A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A point of order, the hon. thE! member for Gander. MR. BAKER : The Premier, Mr. obviously trying to Question Per".iod. My No. 10 ' .. Speaker, is kill tiiTIE! in quest: :i. on 1.1.1a s R501

would he gi ue his approu al to my sitting down wi t h o ff icial s in t he d e partmen t to d isc u ss the background informat io n conc e rning th is si tu atio n a nd, Mr . S pe a ke r, he has not euen begun to answer my question. So I ask the Speaker if he would ask thE! han. the Premier to answer my question. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker, c1er.lrl.y the han. member's point of . order is not a po:int of ord(,~r.

He si111ply got up to interrupt the Premier, who was giving · a very r<-?.spons-ibl.e and comprehensive answer, to ask the question once again. That i.s not a point of order, Mr. Speaker, and I am sure that is the way Your Honour will see it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. I wo u 1 d 1 i k e to point out , though , and I am not referring to this particular answer at all, and ask hon. ministers in answering questions if they would keep their answers as short as possible. The han. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, it is sometimes difficult, because we are involved in the Terms of Union, we are involved "i.n a complex i.ssue here, and I just wanted to explain to the han rnember for Gi-.lnder th<:~l : I am coming to the core of his que.s tion but T. IAJant:ed to givE:~ .it in context.

Even without the member for Gander going hither, L502 March 2 5, 19 8 8 Uol XL ..... .... ;...., . .':. • ··-· .. ·. ~ . ~ . thither and yon lookJ.ng for some . wild and legal opinions that somehow can sustain the argument that Terra Nova Tel cannot be sold, any person 1Altth Grade Xlll or Grade 1X can read Term 31 where i t s a y s , ' wi 11 t a k e o u e r . ' That is pretty clear, 'will take over ... and relieve.' the· debt. It says no more.

But I will take thE! hon. mE!mbE!r' s question under advisement and get back to him on Monday, be! cause I th i. nk .it is important and I think the han. member, if I rnay bE! so bold as to suggest., is sincere in asktng his question and trying to gEd: a handlE~ on t1Jhet.her· ::i.n fact there is any legal provisions here whi.ch protect the sale from not occurring . I understand that, and I IAJi 11, on Monday, give the hon . member a direct answer on his quesl:ion. As I understand 'it the!re is a difference of opinion on the other side.

The hon. member for Gander is opposed to the sale of Terra Nova Tel and the Leader of the Opposition, whethE!r it has any legal or constitutional overtones, does favour the sale of Terra Nova Tel. It is something like the ME!ech Lake whE!re several months ago it looked like the Liberal Party was supporting Meech Lake and notu, of course, they are against it. I will get back to the member for Gander on Monday. MR. W. CARTER: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : ThE:~ hon. rnernb<-?.r for Twillingate . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker·, my quE:~stton 'i s to thE! Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

R ~ i . de o u t ) , i.HI d .i. t con c ern s t hi s year's mark~t for lurnp roe. In light of reports that last year we No. 10 R502 .. .

. :- .... . . - .. -· .... . , -.. :~ . . . ... ""~ .... ":.. . ..... ... · .,. .. '' . ; . .. . . ... . . suffered an over·production of lump roe, which probably will affect this year's market, can the minister confirm those reports and give some indi.cat :ion as to IAJhat the prospects are for the lump roe market: this year· in ter·rns of . ? pr1ces. MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Fisheries . MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . The han. gentleman is certainly absolutely correct. There was a significant overproduction of lump roe in Newfoundland in 1987.

There was also good production in Iceland, and, consequently, the marketplace for lump roe, particularly the marketplace in West Germany, is saturated. That, of course, is going to have a depressing affect on the price in Newfoundland this year .

We have no idea yet what the final price might be, but certainly there i.s every indication from talking to the Fishing Industry Advtsbry Board, from talking to importers in the Europ e an community, that because there is still a stgn-i.ftcant amo1mt of last: year·' s production in the market-place t h e r e !Ali. l. l. be l. e s s p r· o d u c t ·i. o n bought this year, and it 1.uill be bought at a lesser pr·i.ce than :it: was purchased last year. MR. W. CARTER: A supp l ementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER : han. the Mr.

Speaker, in light of thE! fact that Iceland, probably one of t:he largest producers of lump roe, was considering putting on embargo, or L503 March 2 5, 1 9 8 8 Uol XL at l(~ast reducing the quota this year on the production of it, does the minister see that happening in this Province? And, if so, how IAJill that aff(::!C t the rnany thousands of Newfoundland fi.sher1nen IAJho, encouraged by last year's big price, are now ge!ar :l ng up and spend i.ng consider·able sums of money gearing up for the lump roe fishery this year? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of FisheriElS . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, first of all J.et me tell the han. gentleman and the House that last iear for the first time Newfoundland became the largest producer of lump roe in the world. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: We outstripped thE! Icelandic production significantly last year. Of course, that is probably one of the probl(-:\ITIS that IAJ e are currently facing in the marketplace . Of course, it is not as E!asy for NE!Wfoundland as a Pr•ou lnce to be able to unilaterally introduce export controls as it is for Iceland, which is an indepElndE!nt, sovereign Nation.

Iceland is also doing some weird and wonderful things tAdth i.ts currency, i n l:er·ms of supporting its lump roe and making i. t more a t t r· active in t. he E u r o pI:! an community than NE!Wfoundland can do, beca1 .1se Newfoundland cannot manipulate the value of Lhe Canadian currency. But we are looking at the possibility of having some kind of controls geared towards the market.plaCEl. We are also looking at trying to break 'into - and I think we ought to be able to da this the No. 10 R503 .- .. .·

•:- secondary process i.ng 1narketplr:·1Ce, particularly in the United States, and we have spent considerable time and money over the last severaJ. months , ... d.th a number of Newfoundland producers, trying to develop caviar packs, final product packs, that could be competitive in the U.S. and competitive in Europe. I mean, if the market is soft and the marl<et requires less lumpfish because of over-production last year, and if the price is down, fishermen are going to suffer in the pocketbook. There is no doubt about that. There is a lot of expectation out there, the han. gentleman is correct.

There are a lot of fishermen going to all par·ts of i:he Province i:Hld outsidE~ the Province to get lumpfish nets, and pr·oducer·s .are br lng i.ng thc,1rn "Ln from all over the world, including Iceland. I SlJppose, on lh~1 other· hand, the ebb and flow of the fisher•y is t.hi.~l hopefully thc,1re will be a significant improvement in the caplin fishery this year that would hopefully offset some of the decline that I think is going to occur in the lumpfish fishery. But. :i.t is go~ing to be a problem.

It is going to be a problem of income and a problem of the marketplace correcting itself, there is no doubt about that. MR. W. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, t:he han . the member for Twillingate . MR. W. CARTER: In my

preamble, one of the main roe, not to NeiAJfoundl.and. I said Iceland was producers of ll.1mp take away from Mr. Speaker·, minister has i.n li.ght: of IAJhai:: · the said, in light of L504 March 25, 1988 Vol.

XL •.• • .•.• ~.· ;.. .. •• ! . ... . - .. •. ~ . .. · ~ .. .. . . .. : .. rE!ports that·. he has nOIAJ confirrnl!:~d, does he not think that, in fai.r·ness, \.:he fisherm~Hl of the Province should be told of what COLild happc~n to hE~ad off tl.lhat, obviously, is happening, that thE!Y are now s pe nd :i. ng cons ide rabl e s urns of money buying gE!ar, making gE!ar to get involved in what they think will be a lucrative lump fishery this year? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I have to take exception to that. The fisherme!n of the Prov"i.nce knoiAJ.

I mean, every fjsherman that I have talked to - and I h~ve talked to hundreds and hundrE!dS so far in 1987 - helve s;ri.d, 1 0l.d rnan, l.urnpf"i.sh dOE!S not look very good this year, 1 but he ts sU.1.1 out b1Jy·.lng llHnpfish nets. Caplin looks pretty good, though. Cod block t"s on the slip . The fishermen know, Mr·. Speaker; the fisher·rnen 1 s unions know, because they, on a daily and a w~1ekly basis, get the· r'E!ports from thE! FI A B. I have s a:i.d publicly on numerous occasions, interviews with the! Fishermen 1 s Broadcast and other media, that lumpfish is on a downturn this year.

On the other hand, I have?. said caplin looks a lot better. I am fairly confident from the conversations I haVE! had v.Jith fishermen and the representatives of fishermen, that fisherme!n know exactly what is happening - in terms of lump roE!. MR. MORGAN : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. !::he South. MR. MORGAN: No. 1.0 . . . member for Bona vista R504- .. • . . ·.

•t• .... . Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier. In light of yesterday 1 s announcement of exploration work to take place this Swnrner off the coast of Nova Scotia in thE! oil and gas industry, can the Prern·:i.er inform the House what the status is now on the Wh i.te Rose striJci':urE:1 with regard to Husky Oil 1 s plan for this year? Will thE:1rc~1 be exploration this year or not off Newfoundland? And, se:1condly, on a different structure, the Terra Nova s tru c tiJ re, lAd 11 Pet r·o-Canada be doing any work this year with regard to ex p 1 or· a t i. on?

A n d , 1 . .u h a t other plans, if any, are there to develop the Terra Nova structure? MR. SPEAKER: The han . ·the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: I would like to thank the hon. member for Bonavista South for his usual way of being on top of u.Jhat is going on in the Province, and asking pertinent questions here in the House. Yes, I would like to anst.uer that ql~est:ion t.:l·)at lJJas just posed. I guess the first thing to recognize is that over the last number of years the Nova Scotia situation has not been all that promising. This year, as has been announced, Mobil :lntends to drtll. one wildcat well there.

In the Province, we have, I guess, t: h r e e a r e:1 a s of a c t J v ·i t y . N 1.1mb e r one, I guess we take Terra Noua fir·st. Dur·'"i.ng the IJJ:i.nl:er, Petro-Canada complete!d, I think it is the C-09 well, which 'has not been tested, but looks extremely encouraging. This C-09 well was supposed to determine that they had reached the limit of the o:il and gas reservoir. It did not do that .

As a rna t t e r of fact , it extended the limits of that 1.505 March 25, 1988 Vol XL ..... ... . . ...:·· ..... ' ~ · ~ ... -,.·."":' -,. .. - .. •.-: .. ·-···· .. .. ·: . . .. ... reservoir and is now showing the · Terra Nova field to be much larger than previously anticipated. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: They cannot test now, and ask thE! Offs hare Petroh1urn Boi:tr'd for approval not to test untiJ. lat.E!r' on '"i.n the Sl.lmlfler t•Jtwn t:hEH'E! !Alas not any ice and the weathE!r is a lot better, so they lAri.ll be testing C-09.

Subsequent to C-09 and finishing it, and having to lAJa:i.t for· tests, they have gone to another location still on what they have considered to be the Terra Nova fiE!ld to SE!E! just how far now the extent of that Terra Nova fiE!ld is. bE! CaUSE! it is much larger than prevtously anticipated, as I said. So, we can see ongoing lJJor k on the Terra Nova field and, as indicat~d in the Throne Speech, Petro-Canada are going out to tenders in April for pre-engineering design and development of that· fieJ.d.

They may be delayed '"i.n that now because of the latest information they got OlJt of C--09 i:tnd may hav(;! l:.o arn(;!nd their tender and it m:i.gh t bE! delayed a few weeks because the field is larger than they had pr·ev"i.ously anl:.-icipal':.(~1d and, therefore, the kind of design that .is goi.ng to be necesscn·y for th€• development is going to have to change somewhal. Number tiAlO. on H:i.bend.a. Mr. Speaker, discussions are continuing to t:ry to s~~e whether we can get an agreement to go ahe~J~d w:i.th d€~veloprnent.

They are continuing at the highest leuel and, as lAJas indicated in the Throne Speech. we hopE! to hau e a resolution of that by June. A very fascinating thing which is No. 10 1~505 ....

. ' . happening, which not too many people have gi.vt~n much noti.ce l:o, is thE! exploratton that is going on on the Wh'"i.1:e Rose s l:r·uct1Jr~1. There had been three or four wells dd.J.led on W~dte Rose, they had not been that promising, and suddenly, Husky - Bow Vall.ey wJ.th, I think, Gulf, and th~;! other companies that were involved in that consortium penaltied out and these two companies moved ahead with a $40 million - $45 million programme last Fall and drilled a new IJJell on White Rqse. It has not been fully drilled and has not been tested.

Some logs have bE!en ascertained to the governments, but it does look very, very promising. NoiJJ, White Rose is only a mile or so away from Crown land, and thE! Offshor·e Petroh1urn Board, IJ.J.lth the approval of both governments, are going ahead for a land sale of eighty parcels of land one mile East of where that White Rose djscovery is. And the interest in that land sale is quite something.

So, if T can surnmar"i.Le: Petro-Canada is moving towards a developmental prospect on Terra Nova and ongoing exploration; Hibernia "i.s in the J.ast throws of negotiations on the whole White Rose - Crown land sale situatj.on, Huskey-Bow Valley will be going back on White Rose this Summer, finishing drilling, doing the testing and anno!Jncing r·esul t.s; and there will be Crown land sales in September. So we can look forward to, I would say, after September accelerated exploration activity. Between now and then there will be two or three rigs on Ter·ra Nova, and some work on Hibernia.

Mobil might be dolng another wildcat. And then accelerated exploration near the end of this year and accelerating L506 Mar· c h 2 5 , l 9 B 8 Vol. XI.. . ........ into 1989. BecausE! under the Crown land sale .in or·der to qualify, the way thE! syste!m works is thr.tt i:he Offshore Petrolf:!IJITI Board will take th~~ bE!St bid. And the best bid is based upon how many wells they will drill on that pj.ece of land that they IAd.ll get the lease to.

So, thereforE!, we can expect an accelerated arno~nt of exploration activity offshore, some between now and September, accelerated between September and December, and accelerated even more into 1989. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr . Speaker . As we all know, the problem IJJj th yo1Jt.h lJnemployrnent ls one t:.hat every member of this House is very much conc~H·ned with.

Last yc,1iH' J.n the budget the government opposjte inl· :roducc-:!d a Yc11~th EntreprenE!IJr Programme designed to help young people get involved in business. My question is to the minister responsible for the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, and · tt is: CouJ.d he give us some update on how well the Youth Entrepreneur Programme is doing in meeting its objectives? MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han~ the Minister of Development and Tour1sm. MR. BARRF.:TT: Mr. Speaker, the Youth No. 10 R506 ... , . . ; ... . . . . . ..

.. ~ .. . Entrepreneur Programme through NLDC is just one small element of government 1s initatives in the youth employment situation in the Province. Fundamentally, most of the activity relating to youth entrepreneurship and initiative in t h e:1 p r i vat e s e c tor :t as t y ear tAla s as a result of the work programme that was initiated and developed by the Department of Car~er Development and Advanced St1Jdie:1s.

And that programmE! had an element wh l ch triggered Ln over $10 million in programmes, primarily 1: h r o u g h 1-: h e p r ·i v a t. e s e c t: o r , 1.1.1 h i c h my colleague will probably be able to address in significantly more detail. But a significant pro port ion of all. jobs t:ha 1: tAH-!!re presented to government for approval had to have a significant percentage element of youth participation. So there were several thousand people involved in the youth programme that was administered through that division.

The entrepreneurial programme itself, within the structure of Development and Tourism, was primarily targeted at people wishing to start their ot.&Jn independent initiative, not attached to some other employer. I am personally rather discouraged at the lack of initiative that has been shotAm throughOIJt some parts of the Province with respect to this kind of individual initiative. I am prepared to accept t.hat a great deRJ. oF that lack of activity might have been the result. of a pr·ograrnme that had never been introduced before.

The k:ind of Lhing that tAle arr,1 try i.ng to do is to stimulate this entrepreneur i aJ. initiative from the youth of the Province. They were always dependent upon somebody. else to take that initiative. As a result of the many meetings that w~re held by L507 March 2 5, 19 8 8 Vol.

XL · --··-~- ---- ~ ....-·-~--·~· _, ·- - ·-~- · -- · .. . ' ':. • ."'....- -:.·- -·· • ·- • - · ···- r . . . . -· . . . ·. ~ . . .. . • ~ .; . . .. the Commission on Employment and Unemployment, t.:irne after ttme the answer to the question, Would you consider or have you considered initiating your own work programme?, 1~1as altAiays in the negative, no matter whE!re in thE! Province that question was asked. So there ts an extremeJ.y, I think, and timely educational process and tnformcltion flow that has to be generated throughout the entire sen"i.or schooJ. programma to encourage thE! youth of thE!

Provine~ and make them aware that the future of this Province is in entrepreneuri.al, pri.vatr,1 s~~ctor initiative, and that j s t.vhere our thriJ s t -i. s. And one tAIOUJ.d hope, and certainly would expect, that this year the continuat"i.on of that programme will see a far grE!atE!r initiatiue and effort on behalf of the youth of the Province. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, thE! member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: han. thE! I think that is the best exarnp1E! of not answering a question than I have seen, but at least t.he mini.ster did admit that it has been disappointing.

I think probably a 111ore acc1Jrate tAior•d would be a total failure. We h~ve a situation, and I am qLiol: i.ng Lhc"1 moi.nis ter' s OtAin figur'(!S for February 3, that indicate that onJ.y a l.Jt..tle ovc-!!r 1.0 pc.;!r cent of the money budgeted in the previous budget has been actually taken up, which ITIE!ans that 90 pE!r CE!nt of the funds, tAri.t.h only !:.1~10 months left in thE! fiscal YE!ar, haVE! not been touched at all. Ther·e is no indication even of preliminary No. 10 R50'7 . ~· . ..

. . ~· ·- 'l······ .... ~-~, ... ... -:.· ......... , ·• '- " · .:w· , ~· ... •.• .- ~ -~ · . .- - ... .. ,_ ... . . .. ..... , "·' .... ·-· ... ... ~ proposals coming in. My question to the minister is t.h"'i.s: G·i. v(~n that the programme i.s a failure, can he give us some indication of what went wrong with the programme, why is it not being taken up by the young entrepreneurs of the Province, and does he have any plans Ln the future to put in additional programmes IAii.th t.he budget coming up next Tuesday. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development and Tourism. MR. BARRETT: Mr.

Speak ·er, obutousJ.y the member was not listening fully to the explanation I was giving as to the results of the initiatives that were ongoing last year.

If one would like to reflect, this in.i. t.:iat:i.ve was as a resul.l: of an announcement in the budget, I think i.t IAJas Apri.l. of 1987, and by the time the programme had been developed by Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation we IAJC-:'!re ·i.nto June, and "i.n or·der then to deliver the message across the Prov i.nce as to the availability, which was done as timely as it could have been, there was no question in my mind, that a lot of people out there who might have had the intuition and the initiative to undertake some project just were not informed in time.

NOIAJ, whether the system should be criticized because of that or not I do not know, but 1.1.1e do have a procedure within this governmental structure whereby we do not get programmE!S going before we budget for them. The fact that IAJe had a 10 or 20 per cent draw down of available funding last year i.s no reflection, in my view, of what 1_508 M<H' c h ?. 5, 1.9 8 8 Vol XL might occur this year or subseq1Jent years.

The whole purpose of our initiative is to bring to the youth of this ProvinCE! an opportunit.y and a dedJcaLi.on by · governmEHlt to provide a forum and an opportunity for them to avail of funds to initiate their own business p r o g r a mrn e s , a n d t h t s i s IAJ h a t i s happening here. I would suspect that if the member opposite wanted to look at these numbers this time next year he 1~o.dll see a significant improvement.

One of the problems that we had is making sure that NLDC totally changed their· d"irect:i.on in terms of th~;!ir mandate to deliver programmes on behalf of government to t.he private SE!Ctor by introducing thE! Venture Capital Programme, the Youth Entrepreneural Programme, the Equity Programme, on all of these initiatives were totally d·ifferent than had ever been applied before. The kinds of concepts that thls administration has now put forward for private sector ini.tiative is far greater and better, in rny viE!W, than a n y 1: h J n g a c: r o s s i: h H c o u n t: r y .

I t is the kind of thing that is stimulatlng job activity, new employment opportunities and new private sector initiatives all over this ProvinCE!. Never bE!fore have we seen the diversity and the amount of activity that we are seeing today. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. AN HON. MEMBER: By leave! By leave! MR. SPEAKER: Or·der, please! No. 10 R508 ••• .,. ...-r-. -· t .·.uo • > .. ,:.. . . . - . . .. . ...

\- , : ' • ·- .~ ....... '"" ,. .:. 4 -....... ,. .. ... "'; • "' .. •.:!" ,,. • • • ;..- :: <:':• :- • •.. .,. . ;._ .. , ·' -~:-~- ... :·. -·~··-·· ... ~ : .:'- · · . -· ..· .. - ___ ..... _ -------- ,.. ... ___ . ··---··· ----- ·-~---······ .. ----~- ------·-·-·-... -.... - - ··-- --· --- -···- .... _ .. _ Before going on to the ne,xt i tern, I have great pleasure in welcoming a large group of students today. They are 100 students from St. George's High School, New Harbour, Dildo, with their teachers Boyd Badcock and George Brown. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. WINDSOR: Mr. SpE:1aker·. MR .. SPF::AI<ER: The hon. the Minister of Finance . MR. WT.NDSOR : Mr. Speaker, I have to table today three Special Warrants in an amount of $6,887,400. The fi~st Warrant is for the Department of Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development in the amount of $487,400. That covers two items under the subheadin~ Financial Assistance To Organizations; $112,400 is required for the ope!rational costs of thE!

Regional Veterinary College in Prince Edward Island - this Province pays 4 per cent of the operaU.ng cost, in accordance with an agreement Lilith th<~ Province of Pr"i.nce Edward Island and a further $375,000 requi.red for the hog and po1Jl. tr·y subsidies as a result of low market pr"i.ces. That· brings the total SIJbs-Ldy, Mr. Speakc-:1r, up to $1,875,000 for this fiscal year. The second Warrant. i.s for the Department of Education. The s t u d (-:1 n t s "i n t. h E:1 g a 11 e r y IAli.l.l. be interested. The amount is $4.9 rn:i.llion.

This "i.s r.ln overr·un on teachers salaries for this year over which we have no control.. L509 March 25, 1988 Vol XL . • . . ·-·. ·. That is a variance of 1.4 per cent over the estimated total. It brings the• total cost of teachers salaries For this year to $344,300,000, Mr. Speaker. The third Warrant is to thE! Department of Health in the amount of $1.5 million which is requirE!d for cashflow requirements relevant to the Central Newfoundland Hosp""i.t.i:tl.. Th"ls is a second one. I tabled one last week for $2 million, hon. gentlemen will recall.

That is a result of the spE:1c-:1d in IAJ~l'i.ch t.he contractor· is . proceeding with that project going r.t h~H~d v e r· y IAJe 11. . T. am s IH'(,1 1: he President of the Council (Mr·. S lmm

s) i s d e Li. g h t. e d !-:() ~H:1 r.t r l: h a t . I have gre!at pleasure in tabling these Warr·ant.s, Mr. Sp<:!akl:~r. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear·, hear! MR. POWER : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Agriculture Development.. MR. POWER : Minister· and of Rural, Northern Mr. Speaker, I have two rE,port.s I would like to table. Om1 is from the Newfoundland Crop Insurance A g e n c y i."' n d t h c~ o t h e r o n e i. s F r· o rn Livestock Owners Compensation Boar·d. Answers to Questions for which Not ice has been Given PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr . Sp(~aker . MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker., I IAIOUld jlJSt. . like to No. 10 R509 . .·.

. . .. . ... ...... ··~ ..... . :- _,. ,• -, W oo ... "' o ... . . .. •• o o ... '.t •, 0. o .. , • , 0 "',. ;;. o I ,1. • oJ·•·.-. .. -~ ~- . . .. -:., . table Ulis. I have cop-.i.c.;!s. As a result of the question by the member for· GandHr (Mr. Baker), T. want to table the relevant secti.ons for all hon . mHrnln~r s of the Terms of Union as it deals with this whole question of telecommunications, the railway and so on.

In case some hon . . members do not have copies of it, T have jtJs-1: 'i.n the last fe•AJ minutes had copies taken off for every member of the House of the Term 31 and Term 33, which deals wi ·th the telecommunications aspect as well as the railway aspect. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Development and Tourism. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, as a result of some! discuss-ions and questions fr·om l:he member for Naskaupi (Mr .

Kelland) y (:1sterdr~Y, ther·e IJ.Jas one ques l.:.i.on left unansu.Jered wh:ich I undertook to prov ·ide to thE:1 Hou s e r.od r:~ y, and that is t.uith respect to the questions concern i ng the sal e of stock from Newfoundland HarcltJ.Joods. Ther'(-?. tuas some information or indication that that stock sale had taken place by Newfoundland Hardwoods and there was a significant amount involved. I would like to inform the member, and I am sure his colleagues will inform him, that, in fact, a sa1e did take place of approximately $1.8 million worth of stock .

This stock 1 s sale, however, was not initiated nor undertaken by Newfoundland Hardwoods Ltd. It was the disposal of that stock which was affected by the fire, L510 Mar· c h 2 5, t 9 8 8 Vol XL ·· .. and -t.he sale IAJas und(:1rtal<en by the i-nsurance company, who carriE!d thE! :insurance for the cor·pora1:::J.on and di s po se d o f t his a mount of stoc k . The dis position , b y the wa y , alt hough we had no jurisdiction o v ~>. r It, to~~ as as a result of a pu blic t en d e r whic h was intti.ated by ·t he ins IJ r<.H l c e c otnpa n y .

Rorna.r was t he s u ccessf ul ten d e r e r a nd th i s i s where the stock flowed through. So it was not an ·ini.tiat.i.ve of the Devel o pmc:mt Corporation, of Hardwoods, but a response by the insurance company to dispose of damaged stock. Petitions MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John 1 s East. MR. LONG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. T hrwe a pet J I: ton IAJU.:h ovc.;!r S, 000 names on it that I tJ.Jani: to pr e sent . I want to read a petition which will allow me to bring Ul"is peti.t:i.on . My pc.;!tt t ion reads as follows: 11 To the hon .

House of AsSE!mbly of N(:11ufoundl.and and Labrad o r. 11 We. l:. he undersigned' do peti ti. on the hon. House of AssEHnbly to giVE! its support to a petiti.on with 5,001 names on it being presentE!d to the government under the sponsorship of the Newfoundland and Labrador Association of Youth Servi.ng Agencies with the fo1lowing prayer: 11

WHEREAS abuse of alcohol by teenagers is increasing and the · No. 1.0 RSlO . ..

0 I o o 0 o • • I • o -- • 6 . ... ""': :. . .. · .. ...... ~ • ..-.... ~· .. .... • ~· : '• • : -.. .. ,. ~ .. . . ·•· .. -........ - ... '· ... ..:.~ .. . c- ~ .-... . ..... ~ ....... . ' .• ~ . . ··. •· ... .. ·····-- --.. ----···· ..... ... ··---- ... _ --··- ··--··- ·· .... --- ____ ., ___ .,.._,. ___ .... _. __ .... .. ... -·-·---·-· .. ·- --~-···· ---·- .. -- age at which youth are experimenting with alcohol. i.s decrE!asing; 11 THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Association lobby government to: 11 (

A) ban lifestyle advertising; 11 (8) raise the dr·inki.ng age back to twenty-one; 11 (

C) increase educat.i.onal programming by the Alcohol and Drug Dependency Commission on alcohol and drug abuse in the schools and 1.ui.th var-i.ous youl:h groups; and 11 (0) app]y pressure to estabJ.ishE!d t rea t men t c e n 1:: e r s :i. n s t rate g :i. c locations across the Province. 11 • Mr. Speaker, I am presenting this peti ti.on wi. th four names on -i. t as a means by which I can present the original petitlon with the original signatures. I. would ask the Page if I could have these petitions presented to the gover·nment, perhaps placed on the Premier 1 s desk .

The petition I am presenting IAiith a small number of names on it, which will enable rne to present the large petition, is to the House of Assembly. Mr. SpeakE!r, the petition which has been presented ·to me t.o br.ing forward to khe government with 5,000 names on i.t, represent .s quite · an impressive organizing effort 1mdertaken by l:.he Association of Youth Serving Agenci.es, ;~nd obviously r<-?.pr·esr;!nts an area of great concern to young people and people IMho ;u·c~ wor·k"i.ng with young people right across the Province.

I have a breakdown showing l:.he signatures come from all over the Pr·ov .lnce, and T IAJOul.d l. i.ke to ree~.d L.511 March 25, 1988 VoJ. XL ~. ' · .. ... & .... that into the record. St . John 1 s and l:.he surrounding area had over 500 signatures; the Northern Peninsula had 450 signatures; the South Coast had 460 signatures; the East Coast had 600 signatures; the Central part of thE! provinCE! had 1500 signatures; the West Coast had 1, 200 signatures and there were 230 signatures from Labrador. What we can see from this petition, Mr.

Speaker, is a very well. organized campaign to mobilize young peoplE! of this prou'i.nce around an issue of very serious concern. If I may spe!ak to the"' four i . ssuc~s that thc~y have presented in their petition, l LtndE!rsU~nd t:har. thc,1SE:1 IJJCH'e ·Jssues that the agency brought to the at.tent -i. on of gover·nrnent, in fact, in a meeting that 1.uas hel.d. w~lth the Social Pol-i.cy Committee of Cabinet over a year ago, E!arJ.y in 1987.

At that rneet ::ing, l:.he agencies involved in providing servi.ces to young peoph1 in this province focused their attention, :in particular, on the need for educational programming and treatment centers. They presenb :!d information to the government, IAJhich was, in fact., a critique of what the government in this province :is spending, or indeed what the government is not spending relative to other provinces in the Atlantic. I would J.ike to read the list. of pc-?.r cap:i .ta spend""i.ng For comparison purposes so 1.ue can seE! 1.uhat -thE! gouerntllc.;!nt her'rO! is not. do.J.ng.

In the fiscal year, 1986-87, thE! pr·ovi .nce of New Rr'IHlSI,o.dck sp~:!nt per capita $9.08 on addiction research, educal: Lon and tr' c,1 at·. m~~nt programrrtE!S. In Nova Scotia, thE! government sp(:1nt $7 . 10, and :in Prince Edward Is] and, thE! government spent $2 2. B 3 pE~ r capoi. ta No. 10 R511 ' .

~ . . .. .-.·· -- ~,.. : . .... ~ .. -.......... ... . : ·. ·~ : ... -· .. ... ,. ... .. . .. ..... .. .,,: ... 1. •·•: • •·I· on addiction research, education and treatment programmes. Mr.

Speaker, in the Province of Newfoundland in 1986-87, this government spent $2.97, whlch stands on its own as a shameful 'i n d i. c t rrH:~ n i~ of 1:: h E:~ l. a c k of commitment by t~is government to deal seriously IJJi.th t.h<:~ ar·c-:las of education and treatment, in p a r t i. c u l. <H' , b u t ~~ l s o t o p u t: -i. n place the necessary programme!& to undertclke research and investigation into the problems of addiction, rlOt only of young people, but of all citizens of this province . with alcohol. and drug related problems.

I tJJould likE! to further bring to the attention of the government an indication that some of the agencies out there, independent organizations and business people are doing their· best to f.ill the gap that is being left by the absence of support from this government. There was a campaign last year ini l:::iat:ed by Lhe Capta-i.n qu i.k foodstores chain in which they launched a catnp<:dgn puU:ing posters and signs in each of their stores across the province based around an awareness campaign encouraging thelr staff to Lalk about "19 Is ThE!

La1.11. 11 This was, from my understandi.ng, ct ver·y successful public awarenE!SS and education Ci'lmpa"i.gn, and indr::H:~d it is exactly the kind of thing that the government of the province should be taking responsibility for. I understand - MR. SPEAKER: Order, pJ.ease! The bon. member•s time has elapsed . MR. LONG: L512 -- ... ...... March 25, 1988 .. ... .. Vol. XL . .. .... ,- . ......... . .·. , . ... . · If I rnal<e take a few seconds to conclude, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: Does the han. member have leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member has leave . MR.

LONG: The pet.it-Lon I presc-:lni:E!C~ has four arE!aS, Mr. Speaker. I wouJ.d likE! to say ther·r,~ :Ls on<;! of t:he fc11Jr areas that we, in this party, ha.VE! probl<-:lms wi t:.h. Tt. i. s t:he suggestion from the petition to raise th<-:! drinking agn to 21. That is not something that WE! :i.n this party are fully in support of. WE! think this might rE!quire f11rther investigation, and 1/JE~ do not think that that is thE! answer to the problem of alcohol and drug dependency. We want to emphasis the other three areas !::hat deserve not only thE! atte!ntion of thE!

House, but some action and response on l::he part of the government . Thank you, Mr. Speaker . SOME HON. MEMBERS: H e a r· , h e a r· ! MR. H.ISCOCK: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. Lhe member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, IAJe Stlpport th!!:~ pE!tition on this side. We also had a copy of that peU.t.ion SE!nt to us but we did not decidE! to present it at the appropriate time or now. The maj n reason was that No. 1.0 I~ 51.2

... .:" ' . . • •• • • • .... • . . ... "'L • .., -, _:; . .. ·., • • • •• ~ ~ -: • • ,. ,• :.· • • ~ '• .roi . • .. • • _,.o ... .i • • • • • -• -•••-••- ••• ---•-•••--·-·- _ . .,. ... ,._- -- ~ ,._,,._,.,...., _ _.~ •--• • -•••- •••-- ---r,.. _____ • ••••- it went to the Minister and we folt t.hr.tl:. IAJe should gi. v~~ Lhe Minister time enough to be able to pr·esc->.nt it hirnse1f because, as t.be SpE!aker has ruled many times, ori.gi.na1 pe.tit: -lons have to be presented in the originals, not xeroxed. Even though the Minister MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Could I interrupt the han. member for a few moments?

I think we should be clear that this petition is one present~d by four people and is not the attached copy. It :i.s an original of four people only. The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, WE! arE! well awar·e of l·:hat and ow· side, 1~1e could have got four signatures, t.wenty·-four, or wha tevc->.r. The->. main part has to do with the 5,000. It went to the Minister and we were waiting for the Minister to present it. because Uds is wherE! it went . The Youth of this Province want action. MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Or·der, please!

A point of order, the han. member for St. John•s East. MR. LONG : My point her·e is that the member for Eagle River does not understand that I presented the petition of 5,001 signatures and "i.t IAJas thE:~ ori.g"LnaJ. pet. 'i.t "i.on wi.l.:h the original signaturE!S. That was not given to the Minister. MR. SPEAKER : L.5l.3 March 25, 1988 Uol XL ... -·-----......... ----·· · .. -.. • .. • • j . _ • . - . Order, please! po'int of or·der. MR. LONG: That A brief was given. :inform the member· for of that. AN HON. MEMBER : is not a I want to Eagle Rivt::~r That is not a point of order. MR.

LONG: It IA.Ja s not add r· e s s e d t. o of Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! point of order. That the House is not a The han. lllc->.mber· for· Eagle Rivc->.r. MR. HISCOCK: Thi:tnk you, Mr·. Spc,1ai<E!r. Wi.l:h regar·d i::o t.l·11,~ 5, 000 names, H·­ the member for St. John • s East has l·:bc,~ or·Jgtnr:~l. pet: ·i.t.J.on, t:hen vt.~ry good. I was on the assumption thc'lt it IAJE:~nt to t.he Min:ister. We did present a xe,rox copy which WE! could do with extra names. The point really comes down to the fact that. in this ProvinCE! we arE! only spending about $3 per capita on alcohol related treatrne,nt.

We do not have a good enough educational programme for our high schools and community colJ.eg~"s i·~nd we do not have the' nE!CE:1Ssary treatment centres. There are women in the Province ne,eding detox'ification centres spread around the Province. Alcoholism in i::he Province is one of the maj.or job-related health problems t h a ·t. c u t. s 1 n t o 1: h ~::~ e f f .. i. c i. c,Hl c 1J of the work force. We feel that wjth the high cost of alcohol-related tctxatLon going back in the governme,nt, at J.e,ast gov~H·nrneni: has the re:1spons i.bJ l.·'i.f-y No. 10 R513

• • 0 .. ... t . ,.o 0 ~·l' 00 •. 't • .... ~· · :;· .. • • •• ·: •• ' ... :~.·· ... · ' -.. .... -·" . . ... · ~ · ..... , .~ .... · .. to have an education or an at.uareness programme, treatment centres, and have a programme particuJ.arly geared towards our youth of the Province of life-sty1e advertising on telev:i.s:ion and magazines i:hat 1..r.1i.ll let our young people - and I arn glad a lot of our younger people are here in the gallery today become aware tAr.lth regar·d to drugs and regard to aJ.cohol.

The Gover·nment cannot use alcohol in a way as a major fund raiser or for taxation. · If they are go-i.ng to continue to tax it and tax it, then at least t.hey should havf:~ the responsibility of coming up with an education programme for our youth who can make a conscious · decision at the appropriate age. With regar·d to the other issttes, in it, Mr. Speaker, raising the age to twenty-one, I believe that is a government decision. I personally believe that you cannot change the law of twenty-one and take away something that you have now given to people. With regard to the future, Mr.

Speaker, after consultation with the high schools, consultation with the communlty colleges and the other onE!S, then this of cour·se, I think has to cornP. fr·om the youth, and from the leaders. Tn the meantlme, 5,000 people.;! have supported this and that is what govermnent has i:o tal<e note of and everybody else has to take note. Mr. Speaker, the.;! main emphasis i.s that we are only spending $3.00 per capita on alcohol research, educational neE!dS and treatment centres and it :is not enough.

We are collecting in the budget something like $160 million in taxes from J.iquor-related taxation L514- March 2 5, 19 8 8 Vol XL and there is not enough of Mr. Speaker, going back into programmes like sports, educationa1 neE!dS, and travel. that, youth like youth What tAle a r c~1 do t n g , M r . S pea lu~ r , i s telling our younger people that the l.i.fe-s t.yle wh:ich is advertised on TV with regard to hockey or a n y l h :i. ng , :Y o u c a n no i: h a v e a c 1 c;! a n heaJ.thy body sportstAJise un1E!SS it :i.s fol.lot)JEH:l by a b~~er or cigarette. So, Mr.

Speaker, I do hope that this government takes note of this pet i. t-i.on of S, 000 peopJ.e. I hope it will start dialogue with the Youi::h Adv.isory Cornmttl::ee i::tnd tAiith other youth organizations in the Province to f:ind out how they can set up an educationa1 programme, and how they can us e ·the ex i. s t i n g youth organizati.ons that are in the Province, J.ike Allied Youth and other student counciJ.s and other groups around the Province. In concluding, Mr.

Speaker, this side supports the petition and calls upon t.hc-?. government t:o be responsible and start aJ.locating more rno n e y 1:: OtAii:H'd s 1: rea trne n t centres, research and educational. prog ramm~~ s . Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. BUTT : Mr·. Sp~1al<er. MR. SPF.AKER: The han. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth . MR. BUTT: Mr. Speaker, I woul.d Like to haVE! an opportunity to makE! a fE!W c o rnm e n l·. s o n t h i. s p e t i t i. on . I t i s regretable that the member for St. John's East (Mr. Long) did not extend the courtesy of providing • No. 10 R514- . . •

. • ..... -lo ..... ,.--.:. ,:. ·:~ "' ~· ... "" -...;• • ·..- . ..... . .... "" • • ~ .• I" I . --··· .... - ________ ,.. ____ ... -.- ... ....... -··-··-_ .. , __ -- ....... --·--··- --··· ·---····- .. ···-- - ·- -- .. -- --~- -........... . -- me with at least the prayer of his p e t. -i. t: ··i. o n s o "i. t. c o ul d b F.! ,:~ d d r· e s s <.;! d perhaps more comprehensively than [ IAJi 1. l. d 0 r• ·i. g h t. n Ot.LJ . First of al.l, I will deal with some matters that werE! raised by the previous speaker, the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock) who, in addressing the prayer of this petition, suggested that the government and the Youth Services Division of the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth in fact are not doing anything for young people. That is far from the truth, Mr. Speaker. I am very pleased today that, as I respond to this peti t.ion, 1 have a number of young people here from Trinity - Bay dE! Vc.;!r·d~1 dist.r"i.ct to her.u· my cotrnn(:HJI:.s on this because, in fact, we have a very, very comprehenilue programme, mostly programmes for you t h 'i. n t h i. s Pro v i. n c e and g r· a n 1 ... s to youth organizations.

We h a v e o n e o f 1:: he b c,1 s +.: lJ. H programmE!S in this country, Duke of Ed lnbur·gh atAiards, yew lh l·:r·r.wc;!l exchange, youth advisory counciJ.s, all est.abl-i.shed by thls administration. We have under specJ.al projects, adm·irl'ist:rat:ive grants, leadership grants to community youth or·gan:izat.ions, camping administrative grants, special projects·, just to ment'.'i.on a few .. Mr. Speaker, I tJJas lE!ft wit.h the clear impression after hearing from the hon. member for Eagle River that we ar·e not doing anything for youth here.

Well, just let me tell. you this, the Newfoundland and Labrador Association of Youth Serulng Agencies receive each year a sust.a"i.ning grant of $50,000 from my department, Youth Services D i. v "i. s i. o n ; G i. r 1. G u i. d ~1 s a n d s o o n L515 March 25, 1988 -' ~ ... . . . . , Vol XL receive $29,000; Giri Guides and Boy Scouts Clubs of Newfoundland and Labrador receive $26,500 a yc,1ar; rlJ.l.:i . (~d Youth Adv i.sor·y Board $26,000 and so on. MR. HISCOCK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: OrdE!r please! A point of order, the hon. the member for Eagle Riuer. MR. HISCOCK: Mr.

Speaker, we are addrE! s sing a pett tion where yotJt:h t~re asking that this governmE!nt aJ.locate morE! money for educational research and treatment centres with regard to youl::h rel.aLE!d pr·obl.c;!rns oF aJ.coholism. I ask that the minister address the petition. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. The h on . 1: he M .i. rd s hH' of C u l. i":.tJr' e , Recreation and Youth. MR. BUTT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Just let. rne conl:-i.nue on UE!ry briefly for a minute to highJ.ight a fetJJ other things tAle are doing.

With religious denomination youth camps, tAle are funding all of thern in the Province. Every single, legitimate youth carnp in the Province is being funded by the YotJth Serv:icc.;!S Divisj.on of rny departmE!nt. We arE! encouragJ ng young people to get involved in the Youth Parliament, we are fund·i.ng that. In dc.;!batJng activities, we have a number of camps afte!r that No. 10 S(~t 1.1p ·i.n N~~~~Jfoundl.and natnl=!d well known Newfoundlanders are supporLed by the RS15

T ' • : . · . . -~. ~ .. .. . .. ... .... ,, ..... ~ ;, . . - ... ··-· department. The Boys and Girls Clubs around this Province are supported by the Youth Services Division of the DepartmEtnt of Culture, Recreation and Youth. Mr. Speaker, to addrt~ss specifically some of the issues raised by the hon. member: for· St. John 1 s East, he, 1 ike me , as the minister respons ·i.b1e, has probh~ms with changing the age right now from nineteen to twenty-one . I understand it is the position of 1:. h E:1 off i. c i. d 1 0 p p o s i. L 'i. on , as well. , or th~ member for Eagle River (Mr. Hi.scock) at. l.c:1ast.

There clr(:1 d number of initiatives taken from wtl:: hi.n. It. i.s under· consider·al :oi.on now in the Department of Ed u c a t: t on • a s we l. 1 a s i n HH>. You t: h Services Division oF my department, this whol.e busi.ness of alcohol and drug addiction. There are a number· of :init:iati.ves taken by service clubs in the Province, like Kinsmen and the Lions Clt.tbs, v.1ho are out right now. today. on a voluntary basis, I might add, which is most commendable of those people, addressing this problem. It is a substantial problem, it is a big problem, and we recognize it.

The whoJ.e matter of alcohol and d r· u g add i c t "i. o n as i. t peri:. a i. n s to young people! is right now a c i:. i. v e 1 y be i n g pur s u e d to d a y IAJi. 1··. h the Department of Education and the Youth Serv ·i.ces Oiv J ston of rny department ·. NotJ.J, t.hE:H'e were a couple of other maU:ers rai.S<'!d i. n thai- . peU. Uon, and as I said previously, I t.tJas not g-i.ven i:he courtesy of a copy . I think I have perhaps ran out of t"J.me, but I IAri.l.J. take those matters under advisement and rHspond to the mE!mber who presented the petition. It is unfortunate, Mr.

Speaker ·- I will say this that I just L516 March 25, 1988 Vol XL .. · .--;_:.-, - : .~ .. ~:. .... _.. .... -- · . · · · . ~ recently met with the executive of the Newfoundland and Labrador Yc)IJth Ser·v-.ing Agend.es and I lAJas not afforded a copy of that pet.:i.t""lon at: that. t.irne, because I certainly could have r'E!spondetd tn a more comprehensi.ve IAJay, and perhaps, if it was their wtsh that the socialist gentleman from St. John 1 s East preSE!nt thE! pe!tition, t.hen I c:oul.d have cerl· .a ·i.nly given a lot more information to the House . MR. LONG : Mr. Speaker, on a point of order . MR .

SPEAKER: A po i.nt: of or·der·, ·t-.hc-'! hon . th(~ member for St. John 1 s East. MR. LONG: Mr. Sp<-:!aker, I have-'! to .say that everyone knows the rule in p r e s e n t i n g a p e t .i t J. o n i. s t h a t. i t is tabled immediately. Upon reading my prayer, I present.~;:~d it to the Page and it is gonEt to the Table. The minister can sit there and hear the petition bEd.ng rEtad, and he can aJ.so get a copy of the petition from the Table . So I think he doth protest too much and he is finding excuses for not addressing the ""i. ss1Je. MR. SPEAKER : Order, plea.se!

I think the han. member took an opportunity to make a statement. It was not the time to make such a statement, and it certainly was not a point of order. Orders of the Day MR. SIMMS: Mr·. Speaker, all, address Order Paper. No. 10 .... . . .. ... - ...... . ' .• .. . . if I could, first of l::he last. page of the pagE! 14. Motion · No. R516 ··.·

._ • I I. .. • & • I • • • .._ ,. · • of • ··-_a, ~ \.o & ,:.. ••' 0' :. .: ~~ ... ·-1'- - • ••. -..... ... ·- • • - .• l ···~- :..:.. 1 ~--; ~-.~~ •• ..• ,, - - · -· ~ ···--· ··- -- · - · -·-·-.. ----- .- ... __ ____ ---.... - ·-··~----·- --· ·----·--·-··- 3 still appears on the Order Papc-n·. I lAlani': to llli:<tk\"' lt clc.;!iH', hctving checked it out with the Clark this morn.Lng, that it is t1'11nough no fault of the Clerk or h~::n· off·Lce. That mot·i.on IAldS g:i.vc,1n first re,ading yesterday. I think :instr·ucttons we,r·e sc.;lnt down to i·.:hE!

Queen's Printer to have it appear as a second rc-?.ading, but. an en·or was made and it will show on Monday's Order Paper. Before we proceed wi l:h Int.erim Supply, Mr. Speaker, t.o do first reading 4, Bill No. 27. I would like of Motion No. Motion, the han. the Minister of Labour to introduce a bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Teacher (Collective). Bargaining Act, 1973, 11 carried. (Bill No. 27) On mot"i.on, Bill No. (/.7) r•ead a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. SIMMS: Order 2. Committee of Supply. On motion that the! House resolve itself "i.nto a Commlttee of the Whole on Interim Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole on Interim Supply MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening) : Order, please! MR. BAKER: Mr. C.hairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . L517 MiH'Ch ?.S I l9B8 · Vo 1. X I.

Let me say, first of all, that I r.1m vcH'Y ploased 1~1e ar'C'! on T.nter'im Supply today. One of thE• c: ornp 1 a -Ln·l: s 1:. hi'l t IAle had e;u· 1. J (·H' in terms of Interim Supply was the s h o r· t. rw s s of U. me a J. 1. o t: t. E! d , a n d I thank thE! minister and thE! Government House l..c~1ader· for alJ.owing this little bit of E!Xtra time to see if we can get over our problems concerning Interim Supply. First of all, I would likE! to sEd·. the record straight on a point raised a couple of times in this House, in our last Committee debate, and that was that. thE!

Opposition has not really been asking any questions. I wouJ.d like to just. v~:!ry briefJ.y summariz~ some of the instances IJJh(~H'H quest--tons have bcH.;!n ask€~d. very specific questions. Very early ·tn t:he StJpply debate I did ask a number of questions c o n c e r n :i. n g t h e p r i. o r i. t.: t e s i n individual departments, and thE! listing of prior"i.t:ies in individual departments.

I asked for a breakdown :i.n +·enns of some of the departments: For instance, So c i. a 1 S e r· v .i. c: e s , 1:: h 1::1 p ('H' c C;! n tc' g e of the budget that Interim Supply r e p r· c-:'! s e n -t·. e d • a n d t. h EH' c;! lAIC;! r· E?. a number of other questions there. A little furthHr on the member for Burge!o - Bay d' Espoir asked VE!ry pointed and specific questions co n c e r n i n g hi g hwa y s , s p E! c if i c a 11 y , a detailed brea l<dot ... m of the cJ.os e to $125 million allocated to thE! Department of Transportation. There were a number of speakers who mentioned this particular item.

The member for Fortune Her·m·i. tage, I believe, on two separate occasions specifically asked for a list of the road projects that WE!re incJ.udE!d in thE! $1.25 mtl.l.-i.on. rhe hon. rnc-?.mber· got around to that twice, I believe. 1\Jo. lO RS17

.. 0 o ~ •• o:.! o• I ; • : • • ••• • 'J.. . .. • • •• ~ ... • • ... .. ~ ... : .. ' ••• :. ! ' _ ... , .. ... .. , I interjected a second time in the debate and asked two very specific queitions concerning the current account deficit, and a question related to how much overexpenditure was, in fact, being incurred, and, again, a question concerning a detailed list of priorities from the Department of Transportation.

The Leader of the Opposition obviously asked a number of specific questions on various departments: The Department of Public Works and Services, For· instance, the Department of Development and Tourism, The Department of Forest Resources, and so on; he IJJent thr·ough a l:i.st of dE!partments and asked specific quest ·i.ons abo1.1t l:he amount supply for these departments . So far, I would like to point out to the hon. House, we have had answers to some questions. The Minister of Finance dealt with one of the questions I asked in my last interjection, but he did not answer the other one.

That is his right and that . is fine . I t lAta s not a big point at the time, anyway . The Minister• of Fisheries answer·ed the concerns about the amount of Interim Supply For i:he Department of Fisheries. He gave complete answers and we are very pleased with that. However, a number of quest-tons remai.n out.standi.ng outstanding, and in the two days, today and Monday, hopefully the other ministers wiJ.l be as for·t.hconri.ng <:~s t.hc-?. Mini.s+· .er· of Fisheries has been. T wo1.1ld 1.-LI<e t.o say that we tArish the Interim Supply debate to be cc-?.nter·ed ar·ound Tni:. er· i.m Supply.

T am trying to say this without becoming too controversial, as the LS18 March 25, 1988 - ·--~-­ .. Vol XL .. . Government House Leader knows exact .ly tJJhat I am t.all<ing about. I would wish the debate to concentrate on Interim Supply; questions being as ked by this side, and, of course, we will explain reasons for our quesU.ons, and then answers from the specific ministers. MR . SIMMS: Mr. Chairman, IAtould I:: he hon . member permit a question? MR. BAKER: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: ThE! hon. the PresidElnt of thE! Counc:.i.l. MR . SIMMS: Just a comment, Mr.

Chairman, as I do not l: o i: ake at.~.tay from the hon. me!mber 1 s time. However, I do want to tell. him that ministers on this side are quite prE:1pared to ansWE!r specif ·ic questions. That is not a d~lfficulty. However, I also haVE! to make ~i.t clear that the control of the debate is in thE! hands of the Chair. As tAle all knotJJ, debate on Interim Supply is very wide-ranging. That is the practice and a longstanding parliamentar·y tradition. So, to say that it must. specifically bE! on questions and answer's, I mean, that is up to thE!

Chair to d e d . d H . 8 IJ t , f r· om w y e x p e r· i. e n c e , it is not out of order to li~lk about j11st. dnyU.-i.ng tF one wishes. It is only a tE!n minute debate, and that is fa-Lr ball I believe. MR . BAKER : Mr· . Cha i.r·man. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. l·.he member For Gander . MR. BAKER: No. 10 RSl8 .··.

...... 't,-; ... f,.o:-· .. , •• •• 4...·· · •. .... ':."' . .. ' -. ~. : · ... ··· _., •. ' ·" ,..1 I would like to thank the Government House Leader. I agree lAd. l h h ·i. m e n t. "i. r e 1 y . W h a t r d i. d s a y was that we on this side wished the debate to be on the Interim Supply situation. I understand, and T appreciate the fact that tradition is that it is a wide-ranging debate, and if members opposite wish to go off i.nto l:.he per•i.phc-H'Y and ignore The Interim Supply Bill, then that is their right, but I am sure the Chairman will ruJ.e if they stray beyond reasonable bounds .

However, I am just expressing what we hope to accomplish. And if, I would say to the Government House Leader. we start getting th e se answers, who is to say the Interim Supply Bill cannot be fini.shed with today - who is to say? - MR. DOYLE: (Inaudible) . MR. BAKER: so that we are not confronta t :J on s i ttJa t.ion time . into a all L: he Fjnally, I would to say to the Go v e r· n me n t H o 1.1 s c:~ I.e ad e r· i:-\ n d I~ o 1·.: h 1.;1 Mjnister of Transportation who i. n l~ e r j e c: 1-. '"' d .. T c:l o not: k n 01~1 .i. f i. ~ w~s picked up by Hansard - that he Js rc-;1ady to c_ri.VE:1 all answer·s.

I would say to him, as a sign of good fai.t.h, start now and givc-;1 us the list the member for Burgeo - Bay d 1 Espoir has asked for, a nd the member for Fortune - Hermitage and the member for Gander and ma ny other members have as ked for, the li.st of road projects that are being financed under this Interim Supply Bill, and have already have been decided on. this Interim Supply Bill that we need urgently before the Budget so that these projects can be proceeded with.

Would he give us a list of the road pr·ojects that he :in~ends to L519 March 2 5 , 1 9 8 8 Vol XL . -:- ...... -~.-;.~·--.- ·----·--·-- .. - .. -. -.· : · ••• --:-· 0 :,.. ;·:"'':"' - ..... undertake with this money? MR. DOYLE: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Aefore r e cognizing th e hon. Minister of Transportation I would like to welcome to the gallery thirteen Grade VII students from S t . P"' t 1 s J u n i or H "i. g h S c: h o o] lAd t h their teacher, Gary Rumbolt . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear·! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon . the Minister of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: Mr.

Chairman, I wJ.lJ. bE! onJ.y too happy to respond to any spl':~cific questions put forward by the member for Burg eo - Bay d 1 Es poir. the member for Gander, or any member opposite, as a matter of fact. FJ.rst of aJ.L with rE!Spect l~ o a detailed breakdOIAll'l, or a detailed listing of capital roads projects, Mr. Chairman, I cannot make that information available to t: h ~~ h o n . g H n ~~ 1 (:~ m c-;1 n b e c a·u s ~ ; ! n o decisions have been made yet on s p e c: i. F .. i c p r o j e c l: s . o r IAJ h a t projects are going to be funded by t. h e P r· o v ·i. n c e .

T h a t IAJi. ll b e m a d e at a J.ater date. Of courSE!, euer·ybody knobJS what l: he procedure is; it is done collectively by Cabinet a nd announcem e nt s a re made. The announcements wiJ.l be made in due course, Mr. Ch a irman. MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Gander . MR. BAKER: If then, Mr. Minister, decis i ons made on No. 10 . .. you haVE! no yo1~r road R519

-I" .. : .:· ~ t ·.. .. .. •• .. .. •• . ~ ~ ~ . . . .. .. . . . . .. ., .. .. •• • : ~ ·· · ~ • ¥ pri.ori.ties, for heaven 1 s sake 1~1hat do you need $125 million for? Are you telling us that none of that is for road work? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Chairman, I just told the hon. gentleman that t IAJould prov i.de all that . information for him in due course.

F-Lrst. of all., I was jLISt about to tell him that I cannot p r· o v i. d e h i. m 11.6 t. h a l :i. s t: i. n g o f 1: h e specific projects to bE! approve,d, bc.;!Crlluse !: hose d~:1c.i.stons ha~~ not been made yet . When they are made, you wi.l.1 be g-i.u~:1 _ n the~ information. With respect to the money needed in Interim Suppy for the Department of Transportation, I have most of the information here.

The hon. gentleman will understand if I do not givH htm information related to specific grants which may very well be announced afterwards, but I will give him as much information as I can related to the $100 plus million that we are looking for in the Department of Transportation. That covers· SIJCh things, Mr. Chairman, as Administrative Support, $44-8,000, IJJhi.ch is to cover the ongoing requirements of the administrat-i.ve sect t on, wi.th the amounts required for specific grants, vehicle transportation subsidies, and what have you.

Executi.ve Suppor·t $126,000, covering ongoing requirements of salaries and that type of th i ng within the Department of Transportation. Policy development and planning $108,000 cover•s ongoJng requJr·ernent.s of the L520 March 25, 1988 Vol XL ..... P o l i. c y D e v e 1 o p rn e n t a n d P l a n rri n g Division, $35,000 of that amount betng prov ·ided during this period for a grant to the AtlanU .c Provinces Transportation Commission, which is quite normal.

That. happens every single year; it is our portion of a grant that we make available to them for ongoing transportation studies across Canada, which we are involved in, for national highv.Jays rwd everythi.ng else. That. is quite normal, $108,000 there, in thai: particular part. of the department, Policy DevelopmE,nt and Planwi.ng. AdminJ .stration again, $2.31 million. That provides for the ongoing operation w-Lthin the adminjstrative division for grants, too. RTAC fees $7, 200.

Provincial share of the study into 1~1ei.ghl~s ;;~nd rnc,1aSIH'es tl.lhich we dtd and made some announceme,nts on receni·.ly, money i-·. o go ther·e. Funding the local road boards, as IJ.JC-?.1.1, We still have responsibility for a certain number of local road board-s in Uw province, and they have to be funded on an ongoing basis. Support services, $1,100,000, could involve anything, I suppose. When you are taJ.king about support services it could be mat ntenac ,,1 or· anything at all .

I do not have the breakdown that detailed here as to what each 1 i t t 1 e d i vi s ion wo u 1 d r E! q u j _ r e • b u t i. t ·is SLtppor·t servi.ces, gener·ally, $1,100,000, for ongoing maintenance and what have you . Traffic engineering $78,500. Provision is madE! for the ongoing Of>e.;!ra Lion of l·: h:i.s <hv i s--Lon dur·-ing the period concerned, with some allowance being made for early purchases within the traffic eng:i.neer·.i .ng dJv:i.s i.on; they hr}IVe to No. 10 R520

..... •. • --·· ; •• • • · ~ • • I • • • • i I , , go to early tender sometimes to get the best possible prices. Services to other departments and agencies $1,761,000. Anticipated expendit.ure for lAJork donE! for other depdrtments and agencies during the pE!riods concerned. It is notc-:ld thr.tt. UH:~ f11ll awouni.: of funding for salt and sand purchased For• l~own counc:i1s "i.s. provided in Interim Supply. That is an ongoing thing that has to be done year after year after year.

We have to get early ordertng done on a lot of that stuff for the town councils we help out, and order their salt and sand for them every year. So that is $1,761,000 there. Maintenance and repairs, $8, 731,000. The sa.lary budget under that activity is to cover six pay periods. The amount requested for supplies is to cover asphalt order, gravel, paint, etc., for the patnli.ng programmes that will be done as early as possible and all of these supplies have to be ordered well in advance. Road paint, paintlng lines on the road, very mundane stuff, $8,731.,900.

SnOIAJ and :i.e~~ control, $8,312,000, allows for UH,1 sal.ar·y expendi.U.~r·e for !-:he fir·st pay period in April, plus order· -i. n.g oF sa 1. t: , sand and o t·. her m:i s cellaneous supplies here in the tni.t.'i.al Tnh-:lt'"i.m Supply per·iod. AgaJn, very, VE!ry routine stuff t. h a t h a s I~ o b e d o n e e v e r y s :i. n g 1. e year to ensure that we do not have any gaps be tiAJeen the t:trnc,1 1.\le or·der and the time we are taking deliver of it.

We have a very short construction season, as everybody knows, so IAJe have t.o order these materials early and get them in so that we can start. out the wor·k as quickly as possible, on the first. of June if possible. L521 March ?.5, 1988 Uol. XL " ... 4 • •• ·· ·--- --~- ·-- ---- - ..... -··· .... . . . Other maintenance, $214,000, allows for ongoing requirements as well as encumbrances of the contract for road maintenance work for· Labn:u:lor Wc->.st. That ·is, I would imagine, a carryover from J.asl~ y~~ar of a conl:'.r<:~ct !::hat.

IAli:>lS not finished because thE!re was not !·.:he rH-:lC!-:lSsar·y amouni~ of rnorH:~y t.o finish it. So that is a carryover of a conl~r·ac:t alr~HHiy awarded last year. Road maintenance work for Labrador West: Signs $259,000. Provides for the ongoing requirE!ITIE!nts pJ.us al.l.OIAJS for suppl.j.es t.o be ordered early, again, paint and materials, and IAJhat have you, very old, routine, mundane stuff. Salt requirements again. Salt storage sheds: Mate!rial fc•r thosE! sheds tAri.ll have to be ordert:.~d For their construcU.on. That is $50,000 right there.

Equ:i.prnent ad1nints trat.ion, $410,000: Provisions arE! being made for the ongolng operations of those areas, $410,000. Shop servJ.cc-?., $3CH, 000: Sc:~lar"i.c,1s and what have you in the various shops 1.: o c o v ('! r· t. h a t. J n :i. 1":. i a J. p c-:1 r i. o d , a n d early purchases again for thE! IJr.lr i.OIIS depol":S t.:hHt IAI(.;! haUC-:l i:H'OUI'ld the Province, lAJhich could bE! iii n y +:. h "i. n g ; t. :i. r· (,1 s , b a lt. c.;! r 'i c-:l s , p a r t s for machinery, and what haVE! you. 11g;:d.n, ur.H'Y r·out"i.ne.

Eqtli.pmt:.111l: administration, $410,000. of equipment, Maintenance $12,125,000. That ts a bi g one. AN HON. MEMBER: Changing over for the Winter, I guess. MR . DOYLE: Yes. As the hon. gentle!lnan says, th.is is changeovers and, in some cases, ordering some new capjtal No. 10 R521

... ,. . . .... ..- .. ·- .. ~ r • • • -·· ~ equJ.pment just to update our supply we have each year. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, pleas(~! The han. minister's time is up . MR. DOYLE: Do you want further information? I could go for tiJ.Jo or three more minutes and give you what I have here. MR. CHAIRMAN: By leave. MR. DOYLF.:: Maintenance of Equipment, $12 rni.'l.l.'i.on. Again l:: hat cov(~r·s a whole, wide range ordering of 1: i. r· e s , p a l n 1:: f o r· p a i. n t :i. n g , s a 11: :i. n g machines and what have you. Vehicles and Equipment, $5 mi.l.l.i.on.

Agai .n, as I menl: i.onf~d rl moment ago, we update our eq1Ji.prnen 1:. 1 'Ls 1-. ever·y yoar. MR. DII\JN : How much? $5 million? MR. DOYLE : V e h t c 1. e s , $5 rn:i 1.1 i. on . As you know, each YE!ar we take somE! of the vehicles that IAlB have out there in the various depots and we put them up on tender for the various town councils around the Province.

They will have the first crack at getting dump trucks and maybe pickup trucks that have outlived their USE!fu1ness and, in some cases, l::hey w:i.ll. take ti'H:>se, or two of them, for a nominal fee, a co1Jpl.e of l'liHH~r·ed dol.l.ar·s, and make a vehicle out of them that c a n be u s E:~ d iH' o 1.1n d t. h (~ v cH' i. o u s town council yards and what haVE! y o u .

So IAl e h iii v r'! t o r· e p l. a r: E~ 1:: h a 1.: equipment then and re-purchase it, i!l.nd Lt. could b(~ a half <::1 do/.(,)tl dump trucks, or a fE!W graders, or 1.522 MiH' c h 2 .s I 1 9 8 8 Vol XI. .. . a snowblower here and there. .i. s $S rnJJ.l.:ion. That Administrative support, $1,658,000. Again that provides for ongoing operations, but with a11.o1Alance for ceri ·.a.i.n .increased salary costs that we have each year, early in the fiscal year, because of early tendering . Planning and Research, $93,200, provtdes for the ongoing opera .t'ion of that division. AN HON. MEMBER : What was that again, Mr .

M-inister? MR. DOYLE: Pl.ann.i.ng and RE!se;u·ch $93,200 . Administrative support, $1,658,000 . Soils and Paving, $341,000. That :il> the so.i.ls J.ab Lhi:lt. IAH,) have . It provides for the ongoing opE!ration o f t hat d :i. v ·i. s :i. o n , h! s 1-: J n g a s ph a 1. t and what have you. Highway design, $34S,OOO. W~! have to havt:1 all. Lhts desoi.gn IAJork done before going to early tendering. There i.s no po"i.nL -i.n b:~ndering something unlE!SS you hc:-lvE! thE! design work assoctated with it all completed. So we have to have that. Pre-engineer-ing $68,000. Various Improvements $18 million.

Now that IAJ:ill. cover the order· of calcium chloride $1, 150,000; carryovers $20,000. Wc,1 have some specific projects listed there w~ri. ch w:i.ll be anrlOIHl C t~d :i.n the budgetary process, so I cannot g i. v e tha 1·: i. nfor·wa-t·.:i.on r·i.g ht now, and I · am surE! you wiJ 1 appre!ciatE! th;~t. You tAri.l.l l<nOIAl t:hat: by TUE!Sday . Some of the J.rnproVE!HIE!nt:s a n d r: o n s 1:: r 1.1 c t·. i. o n p r· o j (~ c 1:. s t h a t. I have listed here will be announced ell: budget ··. l:i.rnc->. on fltf~sclay. No. 10 r~ 52 2

. .. ..... .... . , ...... . ""·· ......... "" ... There is also a grant in therE! to the Town of Concept.i.on Bay South $1,250,000, but that was announced about a y(,1ar or so ago. The r·oad work that had to bE! donE! in association with the annexation of the communi ties of Fox trap and Seal Cove, that was announced sometime a·go. I can g:ive him that information, because I th i.nl< IJJF.! h"''Vl-?. r.\lr·r:H:ldy said that some of the new projects tJJe 'AI i.l.l. he~ v (,1 on t.: he go for· oar- l y tendering will cost about $15 m i. 11. i. on . So H1 at .i s par· 1-. of H·. there.

And t.:hen we have our- road and bridge rehabilitation programme th:i.s year, IAJh:ich i.s go:ing l·.:o be announced shortly in the budget, and bridges and causeways. Transport Canada: This would be some of the stuff that we have already announced under the ERDA Agreement, back about two months ago, some of the projects that are going to be taking place there. New Roads In Untncor·pora ted Areas: $50,000 conl:.:inuat'i.on of 1987-1988 budget allows for the that: pr·ogr·amme aL level.

Land Acquisition: We have a land acqui.s i.l:"i,on pr·ogr·atmrH-?. on 1::1-Hc' go within the Department of Trans port. at: :i.o n t.o allow for· i: hA purchase of private land in areas l~hi'\1-. WE:1 hiJIV<-:1 .. MR. TUL.K: Mr·. Chai .rrnan . MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK : The Mirdster mentioned $50,000 for roads tn unincorporated areas. I wo u 1 d 1 :ike to as k him :if he has yet made any commitments at all L..523 March 25, 1988 Vol XL ..• • .: J under that $50,000 for this year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Min:ist:.er of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: No. Thiill-.

IAJOIJl.d be for local. road boards. Unincorporated areas that do not hRve any Counctl., they still have the local road board in pl.ac1-?.. That "i.s a small amount of money in there to take care of t.:hose faw boards that we m1ght provide an operating grant of $7,000 or $8,000 to every year. There is no great amount of monE!Y i.n the::~re. MR. TULK: The department of Transportation aJ.so dOE!S (inaudible) out of that same fund, right? MR. DOYLE : Not under that, no. We have a half dozen or so local road boards operating around the ProvinCE!. I do not know how rnany we have.

I guess we have between a half dozen and a dozen, anyt.~.Jay, and therr.~ ar<.~ very small amounts of rnonE!Y that go to t.hese ev~H'Y y~~ar·, $5,000 t.o $6,000. That $50,000 in l.ln"i.ncor·por·al·:(,~d Ar(c1as allows for the continuation of that programme under t.he 1987-19138 budget level. I was talking about land acquisition. We have a $1 m:l.Ili.on set r.lsi.d(;! HlE!r'e.

The total approued budget for ]and acqu i.s·i.l:i.on ·- and t.1.Je ij\lr'E!acly made an announcement on that a few days back ·ls $2.5 m:i.ll."i.on, IAJhich allows for the purchase of private land i.n !.:he var·'ious ar·~~as of the Province where we have corridors set aside for by-pass roads: Conception Bay North, the Outer Ring Road, Conception Bay South, t he Pen e tang u i s hen E! by--pas s and a No. 10 R523 ..__. -.. ~---·- .. -.......... - , ... _. ·- - --~ ~ ... -·--·--··-· -- ~ - . ~ ~· - .. -- -- .... -·· . . . . . .... . . . . .. ·· .

' • .. • 4 ~· • ·-z couple of other areas of the Province. If we have to go through a person's private land, L hen IAJH f e f:11 i. t an o b 1. i g a 1:. oi. on and a duty to at least be able to offer to purchasa the properly from these people. So we set aside $2.5 million, over a four-year period, for that reason. Pedestrian crosswalks: $40,000 allows for the ongoing requirements in that area. Guardrails. $71,500. We have to order a 11 of this stuff in from the mainland. in some cases.

Motor Regist.ration: We have-?. $272,000 to provide for ongoing operations, and 1.o11e have to pr·ovi.de for the ongoing operations of the NeiAJfoundlancl Safety Counci.l., as well. Drjver Examination and Vehicle Inspection, $2~0.000: That provides for the ongoing r·equJrement.s of that: di.vJsion. Licence and Registration Processing, $795,000, ongoing operations to have licence plates - printed early, or· to hr:1ve them manufactured early, and to order i:he rnater ·ial that goes along IJ.dth it. As members know, we will be adopting the Nati.onal.

Safety Code and the ongoing operation of that, which will be ftJnded by the federal government. But we have to put some ·money up front for the operation of the National Safety Code, for inspections and what have you; that is $270,000. Air Subsidies, $594,000, the anticipated monthly payments that we have-?. t.o rnake on the a"ir· subsidies to LabAir, I guess, and these people IAJho prov"i.ch! subs.i.d-i.es for people flying out of thE! L a b r ad o r· a r• ~1 a . A oi. r s 1-: r· :i p Maintenance, $417,000: L524 March 2 5, 19 8 8 Uol. XI.. .,. ....

Airstrips: A fet.u werE! announced a couple of days ago, $3,000,649. We have to put the money up front for the federal government, and they reimburse us afterwards. AN HON. MEMBER : Does that include the one they announced today in Bishop's Falls? MR. DOYLE : I do not know. I did there was one being today in Bishop's Falls. MR. DINN: not know announced There is neither one in Bishop 1 s Falls, no. MR. DOYLE : That is $3,000,649 thE!rE!. Marine Adrni nJ s tra ti.on, $2 5, 000, ongo:i ng operations for that division. Ferry Operations, $3,000,794.

In that particular area, allowances ar·e made.;! l:o nor'lrtclJ. operat'ions in the Salary and Travel account. $300,794,000: that is suppli.E!S, f1.1el., refi. t expenses during the period in question. Maintenance of fer·r·y terrninr:\l.s 86,000 . We have some modifications. to rnakE! t.o one of the fer·r·y t:ermtnals again, I am not going to say which one; you will. kno1~1 i.t i.n a fet.u day s fro rn now - w hi c h is going to cost about $400,000-odd.

Ferry vessels, thi.s is for the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir: $460,000 allowing for major modification to that vessel. plus the debt expenses for the Fogo, Burgee and Ramea ferries. That is the-?. annual. debt charg~1s on i:hose boats that we are paying off. Air Services administration, $47,300. Hangar facilities, a couple of hundred thousand dol.l.ars. All of the government owned aircraft, the water bombers, No. lO

• ~. il • .. ""... • • • ... ... .... . :"' - . . . .. ... , ... . ... :.• .,_ the air ambulance and all of that, $2,370,000-odd. That covers the operation of those for fuel and various supplic.;!S i:.hat have to be ordered. So, I think that pretty tJ.Jell covers most. of it. That might not add up to the full amount that IAie have t.her•e, because there was a couple of things, like I sai.d, LAih"i.ch LAJOI~l.d be budget announcements that I did not give the~ hon. gentleman, but.

I do not. want to pre-empt my colleague, the M·lnist:er· oF F-Lnance, 1~1ho IAJi.l.l. be~ making some announcements, and the Mtni.ster· of Forr,1s 1-.r·y had some things in there as well. MR. CHAIRMAN: Before recognizing the han. member for Gander·, I ~~•ould l.lke t:o IAJelcome to this hon. House 13 Grade XII s l:udents Fr•om l.wnsdc~n, and their teache,rs, Lloyd Matt.he1.us and Andy Gibbons. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member from Gander. MR. BAKER: I am going to be VE!ry, very brief. I LAIOI~ld just 1 i.ke to thank the minister for a list that we can no1.u go to work on.

It amounted to approximately $73.5 mi. 11.-i.on. Thal~ l.eaVE!S ano+.:her· $SO million unaccounted for, and I am cer ·t-.cli.p my colleag11r,1s, r~spr.;!d.r.lJ.ly the critic for transportation, IA!i. J.l. h i:-l v t.;! spec .if i. c que s 1: ·i. on s concerning that $50 milJ.ion. But so far· tl~. J.ooks as i.f 1~u~ mr:~y be prepared to give interim supply to i:. h e D <"' p a r· l:".tn e n 1:: of r r· a n s p or t a l:..i o n up to about $70 million, and that. :i. s a 1 on g lAid y from $ 1/.S m n 1 ton . MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the minister of Finance' .

L525 March 25, 1988 Vol XL -~, -,, - . • ~. -7'1'- •:......,......~, ,..- :·•.,.·-..~•--•·.~,- ·• ~c- •.· .~·'.I t t- MR. WINDSOR: Last day the Leader of the Opposition put forward what 1. thought. was a good q1.1es t.ion. He said in his remarks that WE! had requested nc~arly $35 mi11ion this year for the Department of Public Works T.nter""i.m Supply, and the totaJ. last year for the Department of Publ:i.c Works l.l.las $43,975,000. So, why the obvious diffE,renCE!?

IF we are looktng for supplies for three months of the year, why are' 1~1e ask:i.ng for· mor·e l:.han 75 per· cent of what LAie had in totaJ. for Jasl y~~i'l.r? 'That-. i.s a good question, Mr. Chairman. So, T hi'l.ue gone back, and I th:ink the simple answer is that you have to look at-. l::h~1 Depar'-l:.m~~nt. oF Public Works and what they are r·espons.ible For. And t::hey ar~~ responsible for aJ.l government buildings and var"i.ous contr·acts and so forth, relating to that.

The short answer is that there are so many contracts that have to be entered into whj ch are annuaJ. contracts, and they have to be entered into at thE! beginning of l:.he yt::1ar·. I hdll g""iue so1ne examples of that. First of all, some small items; ear·ly travel reJ.ated to training of regional stafF :i.n l··.h<.;! usc"' of t:er·rntnals, a financiaJ. management information s y s 1·: em, IAih :i. c h J s n E!IAI, and a n E!LAI budget monitoring syste,m. WE! haVE! l·:o get out: e;:arly Jn l.:he year· and do that. That is done during thE!

F·"i.rs l~ !::!~!o or HlY'!.;!f~ rnont:hs of !::he year, so there is SE!VE!raJ. thousand doJ.J.ar·s in for· t.hal.: sor't of thing. It is a fairly smaJ.J ·i. tr"'m. The TnS1.1rance b:i.l.l: 100 pc~r c~~nt of the insurance bill has to be paid on 1 July. Probably the budget would be done', but WE! must have t:hat there and be abl.e t.o, I No. 10 R525

... . . :·· ..... . ... ,-., g u E! s s , c a l. J. 1-. e n d e r s a n d s o f o t' 1.: h on that. Replacement of some vehicles has go ·t ·1-. o be do rlf,~ e a r• l. y .1. n 1: he y e r:\ r . Again you are calling tenders for things, for· a sma ll amo1Jtl"l·. of furniture, $2500 . I can give specif"i.c numbers 'i.F you want them, but I do not know if there is much to be ga i.ned. What. I am tal.ktng about here.;! amounts to about $20 million of the $34 mtllion that has been requested and the rest is smaller items.

There is a $4 mi 11. ion i tern IAlh"i c h is required to encumber contracts presently in place for garbage removal, snow removal around public buildings, cleaning of public buildings, security of publtc buildings, rna i.ntenance of elevators in public buildings, hHating, vent-:ilaU .on and <jli.r' conditioning, and fire protect.ton. That~ is r:~ $4 mj.l.l..ion item and these are annual C 0 11 !: r• a C: t S t h a 1: h r:W e 1-.: 0 b C.;! P. 11 hcH' f~ d into at the beginning of the year·.

ObiJ.iously $1 m.ill.i .on I~Jould be required for the first three monl::hs, but. bc.;!cause I~Je have.;! t.o enter into a contract then you are r· C-:l q ILi. r e t h e f 1.1 1. 1 $11- m ·i. 1. l ·i. o n . There i.s a salary item of $126,000 approximately to allow for early hiring of temporary staff for various projects to be undertaken early in the fiscal year·. These are somE! of the early rnaintE!nance contracts that are required. Again, here is a larger item of $2.5 million required to cover the early st. art. of +:he rna ·in ten an c e programme.

There is no sense IAlaiting until later on .i.n the year, you need to start that, and in some cases, tenders are LS26 March 2 5, 19 8 8 VoJ. XI... ·.·· . rHqtd.r·Hd. Financial ()s you kno•~J, under fh(,~ Administration Act we Cr'l.nnot: entc,~r· without having 1:. h e H o u s '"~ . tnLo supply a cont.rc:u: t grante!d by Then, in l·:ht.;! ar·~~a of r·entals, there is a big ticket i tEHTI, $6. 5 rn .i.ll.i. o n a p p t' ox J. rna tel. y , r· e q u i r ~'! d t. o encumber leases for thE! yE!ar.

These are buildings that. are leased by the Department of Public Works for various government offices and other purposes, so t h a t. h a s t o b e e n t e r· e d i n t o a g a i n up-front. Early registration of conferences i:l n d c o IH' s e s : So rn e o f t. h e s e t h i n g s are taking place during t.hE!SE! f -.i. r· s t. +: h r· e e rn o n t h s . T h a t t s probably the onJ.y conference involved, and !-.:ravel. to that conference and all of that IJJouJ d be dom~ up-front.

In fac l:, t:hat case there is an itE!rn of $8500, I". he 1-o t·.al WOI{l d be.;! iH'OIHld $1]., 000 or $12,000 for thE! year, but beca11sr:1 i~he con·ff?.r'Hncr~ ts t:al<tng place during the first three rnonl :hs, Uwn you nec.;!d 1:-.hat. fundoi.ng in the first three months. Extra funding requ:i.rE!d t-.o accomrnod<:lh.~ ~~ar·l.y pr1r·chases and carryover encumbrances. This is in 1-.:he area of office supplies and there is an amount jn here of $700,000, I~Jiri.ch i.s 1.1.Jel.l over 25 per cent, obviously, of thE! amount. For the year.

Aga-Ln, l::hese tb:!ms have to be orderE!d and purchasc::~d up-front, so these are supplies that will last over the year. Trade shows and tratning SE!minars, severaJ. of those are t.ilking place early in the year. Replacement of a van, agai.n, to be done up --front. More t.r·a i.rd.ng sc.;!n-i.rniH'S, rental of equipment, contracts on rental <"~qui. prnent., IAJh"i.ch .i s $235,-QOO: some No. 10 R526

• • .. •• ~ .J -- -· -··-·-·-··- -· .. --···- -- .. -·-- ----··-··--·--· ..... ,. ·-.. ·---.. ··-- - ---· --·-· equipment, perhaps office equipment, typewriters that are out on a rental agreement; maintenance agreements of some $96,000; and $900,000 t.o encumber orders relating to outside p r i n t i n g , p r i n t :i. n g t h a t i s no t done by the Printing Services Division downstairs, that t guess we do not have the equipment or the cap a b i l. it. y to do , There to~Ja s $900,000 provided there, so that certatnl.y di.storts the nurnber·s in that area.

Micrographic services: $40,000 rt"qu i. r·ed to BrlCIJiflb(.;!r rf~n l:.al agreements and maintenance c:onl:racts. Some $2000 for· c.;!t:H'l.y travel to training seminars. So l:hal: i.s a Y'0 1.191'1 J.i.si'., Mr. Chairman. And about $15,000 to be pa-i.d to U1e Royct'l. Canr::~c:l i.an l.. c.;!g.i.on in Port aux Basques for some p tJ r p o s e , I am no t s u r· e w h a t. i. t i. s , but it has to be paid in early June, apparently. And $60,000 required to encumber the contract for news wire services, so that the han. the Leader of the Opposition can sent out notices of his Liberal meetings in Arnold's Cove.

ThE!Se are the sorts of things. I can go into more detail, but I think that ge,nerally expJ.ains why 1:. hi s i. s s o m u c h o u t o f proportion. It is a very valid question and I hope I have answered it. MR. WELlS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHf'H RMAN: The han. thE! Leader of the Oppos:i .t i on. MR. WELI..S: . . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. He has made a contribution to the L527 March 25, 1988 Vol XL answer and t thank the han. the · minister for it.

But just J.ed: HIE! point out - I qui. ckly 1nad(' a lisl and it is possibJ.e I may have skipped, may have overlooked something that hE! read, and I apolog:i .ze if that is the case but my quick taJ.J.y on what he read out totals about $1.5 mtlLi .on or $16 miJ.J.ion. But the minister has asked for· $35 rntl.lion out of ~1;46 rniJ.lion. So you see' what we ~'lrE' asking for? Where is the rest? We need to know. You arE' asking for· spendi.ng aul·:hor-i.ty. W(.;! do not have any basic obje,ction, 1..\JE! undf:1Y'S 1-.:t::'lnd the;! ne~~d For· i.n 1".(:1r:im supply.

It is the normal practice and SOITll.;!"i.:h i.ng 1'.0 be;! (.;!Xf>C'!C:'I::r;!d HVE!ry year, and the fact that government COiflt1S and asks for· inl"c''r·i.m st.lppl.y j s no j u s t if i c at i o n f o r· c r i U. d . s rn of the government. MR. WINDSOR: If we gave you alJ. thE! detai J.s ., all. the;! head ·i.ngs, you IAJould have exactly waht you have there. MR. WELLS: If the hon . minister IAJouJ.d provtde' us with a writ.tc:'n list, that is Fine. MR. WINDSOR: Do you want everything? MR. WELLS : No, no.

You can just E!Xtract thE! s r.;! c r e 1:: s you want to I< e e p s cH: r l'?. t and provide the ktnd of headings thf'll: you d'i.d IAJi.th the amounts. rhdl' IAJ"iJJ. dO US jUst fine, MR. EFFORD: F.i.ne, by Monday. MR. WEI:J.S: Well, if it re,ady by Monday. WE! have., no 'i.nt:Hnl:: .. i.on of holding up the government on appropriate interim supply. But we cannot abandon our responsibi.litiE!S to No. 10 r~ 52 7

.. . . . ~ .· , ~ the people of the Province to require thE:1 gover·nmen t to account publicly through this House for 1Alhat thE!Y propose l~ o do IJ,d.f:h funds. I 1.o~1:i . 11. j u s l: g ·i. \J e 1.: h E:1 min i. s r-. e r 1: he lj st of the other departments, to wh i.ch I r'f:1ferr· t~d l:he ol : h«~r day when ! spoke, where there is notable differences. Development and Tourism, I mentioned, had $14 mil1ton, l::hat :i.s more l:.han :?.S per cent; Fisheries had $16 million compared with about $31 million last year . So that is more than 50 per cent.

Forestry had nearly $13 million out of $36 million for last year . That -i.s another· one that I mentioned. Rural, Ag r i cu ltu r al a nd Nor t he rn De v e lo pment ha s over $20 mi lli on as c ompare d u.Jit h $39 millio n last year . Transpor t ation , the on e t he ha n . mi nist er jtts t me n ti on e d , 1..vas the other one that I mentioned specifically. Education has $131.6 million compared with $457.5 mil.l"ion lasl:. year, so you are getting up to a third.

We IAJOUJ.d l.i.i<t?. tO ki101..\J IAJhal~ y01.1 propose to do, and if you table a list there will probably be no problem, or if you give ·it to us l:: h:i. s 1.o~1ay . But g 'i v·i ng .i. l·. l:o us thj s way is more time consuming. That 'is what we want . MR. CALLAN : Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRM.AN: The han. the member of Bellevue. MR. WINDSOR: The! han. the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Aylward) :is next. MR. CALLAN: Is he thE!re? I yield, Mr . Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The han . the Minister of Forestry. 1..528 Mar· c h 2 5 , 1 9 8 B Vol XL MR. R.

AYLWARD : T i::l rn s o n· y a b o u t 1:: h a t 1 :i t. t.l e confusion. During ·the last day of debate on i n t eri.m su pply t he re were questions raiSE!d . The rnernber for Ronau t sta South (Mr . Morgan) asked some questions on Fore!st:ry. And I did heHr l::he hon . l..c,1ader of the Opposition mention Forestry at that time, wondering how the expenditures we are looking for in interim supply were broken down . I would just like to give that information to the House right now. tn the expenditures are broken down for interim supply, we are looking for roughly $12.9 rni.llion in our interim supply request.

That is comprised of about $10. 1 million in current account, and roiJghl.y about $2.8 rni.llJon in capital account. Some of the projects. I guess, or some of the reasons why we want money , i n c u r r e n t a c co u n t r e s E! a r c h anrl development. 1..vi.l.l. be over $234,000. WE! have silviculturE! r·c~q1wsts i.n l~ hH CL1rt't-:'!nt part of our budget for $3.3 million, r·oughl .y. Insc,1c l: mnd d :i . Sl:;! r.~se surveys, we need $139,000 for I:Jli'lt.

Tnst,1ct contr·ol, l.~oJ~r:J. ch l.~oJould be a part of our spray prograrrnn E! l:o makc,1 SIH'c,1 I..Vf:1 ge~. t. h~~ necc;!SSB.1"Y planning done as soon as we can, l.~oJo 1.1 J. d be r-1 bout $ 1 . 6 rn ill Jon . Protection and suppression, which I~Ji.l.J. be sorne of i:he equipment for our firefighting season, . in tnterim supply we want about $850,000, in that area. Roads and maintenance for forest access roads wi11 bE! in the rangE! of $270,000. Administration for our road activit:iE !S will bE! about $171,000. Forest utilization, about $184,000. Industry development is about $44,500.

Forest product development, about No. 10 I~ 52 8

MR. WELLS: What was that figure again? MR. R. AYLWARD: It is $118,000 in forest product development. These are rough figures. There is $100 here and there in this. I can give htm ftgures exactly, if necessary. For PoJicy and Planning Division in our Corner Brook headquar·ter·s, for updating of our forest managernE~nt. mapping, we IJJi l.l require some $344,000. Mangement pl.ann i.ng, IAJ~dch 'i.s i.n U1e sCHne division, in our Corner Brook offi .cc,1, .i.s r·o1.1ghly $1 rnJ.J.l.i.on. Inventory control is about $13611.,000.

The->. admJ.nJst.r·al:'..i.on for· forest. manage!lnent, mostly salaries and the lJke, is $144,000. General adrninstration, $405,000. Fxecut"i.vc,1 support, $111-5,000. And the M:inister 1 s Office is $69,700. That. ·i.s 01.1r cur·rc-;!nt account expenditures. The total, around $10.1 million. In l:he capoi.tal. art:H:;l 1:.~1e want 1-:o get our plannjng done and some approvals ready for the resource road construction programmes for this year. We want to get as rnuch planning done as we can. There is $2 million for· resource roads construction. The exact areas are not :identified yet, or I have not seen the Jist.

Our staff is working on that nOIAJ. Cons l:.rucl:"i.on salaries wi]l be about $40,000. Forest protecti.on c->.qu'i.prnenl~. $35,000. The nur·series: We want to do some cons l:.r'LIC l:i.on i.n our Wooddi.·llr-~ Nursery, some upgrading in Wooddal.f~. We IAJant. to do ~;orn~~ IAJor·k in Goose Bay on the nurserie's. WE! want to r·c->.place l::he old niH'ser·.i.e->.s that we have in the Happy Val1ey - 1...529 March /.5, 1988 Vol XL Goose Bay area right nol.IJ. That IAJi.ll cost $200,000. For OIH' IAJater bomber flee,t, for ge,tting some' o·F our required materials, wi.ll be about $15,000.

That wi11 corne' t.o a total of about $2.3 m:i.Jl.ion. These are some of the reasons. There are more details here. I cannot table this list because there are other things in here perta"tn:ing to the maJn budgc~t which I wi11 not bE' able to table. But this is a lJst. of pretty well the exact figurE's of the morH:1Y IAJe IAJi 1.1. be r·eq1 .1ir·"i.ng J.n Interim Supply. When you look at our tota1 budge't cll'ld Uw i'lmn IJ n t: IAJe c-:tl" '"' r· e quest. '.in g , it is a bit morE' than onE!-.. ·quartE'r oF o 11 r b 1.1 d g c,1 1". , 1: o co v (;, r· ·1·: h c"1 t.: h r· E! e months.

The rE,ason that it is a b.il-. rnor•c:, "i.s becaLISC->. ~~~t~ nE!E!d some upfront money so we can ge't somE' conl:r·act-:s on the spr·ay progr·amme, and we can get some forest pr•otect i.on (.;!qu:lprn(-;!rJt:. in p"l.ace. We need to do that and start as soon as possi.ble the contracts on resource roads, forest access roads. We neE!d to cornp1c~te that pJ.anning and gE't sorne' of t:he' contracts out so that the roads can be built in the U.rne r'E!quirE!cl by the people IAJork:ing i.n the fore,st industry.

If there are any othe!r qUE!Stions that anyone might havc,1 on l::his, I will try to get the information r- or i": h (-:'! rn . T h -1. s "i. s pre 1, +: y IAJE! 11 1:. he information that I have' he,re! now. Any det.a ·U.s thal:. yol.l rrri.ght l.::i:ke I can certainly dig up the .i. n for· ma '1: "i. on , and t:. h c,n· e IAri ll. be more detailed explanations coming d 1.1 r i. n g 1.: he Co rnm J 1·: i" c,1 c;, p r· o c e s s I.•.J h ~~ n the budget is fina1ized. MR. GILBERT : r-1 r· . c h cd nnr.u1 . No. 10 R529

MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for· Burgee - Bay d' Espoir . MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. C~1airman. My c o 1.1 e a g u e f r· om G a n d e r· p r· <-:~ l': 1: y well covered the spectrum as far as transportatlon 1 s concerned, a] though there ts some money left IJ nde r· t h(c~ head -i. ng s UliYl t 1~1e hr:w e not received an explanation as to tAthere i.t .i.s golng. tasked the questi.on the first day I got up, if t.he m"i.nJster· IAJoul.d br·eak dotAtn under headings the $124,958,000 that he wanted to spend, beca1 .1se it was 75 per cent of last year's estimates for the department.

So, maybe if he could do that, as thE! hon. the Leader of the Opposi. tion just asked the Minister of Finance, if he could break it dotA.tn under the headings without giving away any secrets, we would then be able to have a look at it. We realtze he is not going to do that. So if you took the capital expenditure and you broke that c:lotAJn tJnder your· head"'i.ngs, and then you took your current account spend-i.ng and you br·oke 'l:h<:lt doiAJrl, and then, if there were any exl:raor·dJ.nary expenses, ju s l:. 'l.

"i.s t: tl'tem that way, under the! various head ·'i.ngs that w~-:~ iH' e go i.ng l:o bf:~ debating once the budget comes dOIAJtl on T t.t e s day . As my colleague fr·om Gander· sa. Ld, we find jt extremely difficult to believe that here you are, you have those amounts put aside for highway funding, either maintenance, or upgrading of the Trans-Canada Highway, you are about ready to go to tende!r, and yet yo1J do not seem to know that you can rE!lease the list. of where tho s e pro j e c t s are . It wo u 1 d s C.;! em to me strange that here .You are L530 March 2 5 , 1 9 6 8 Uol.

XI.. as king for the money for j, t and yet you do no-t. knotAJ IAthere you a re going to spend it. Now, it would seem l~ o me t.bat. if th "i. s :is t he case it would possibly bear out t~hat-. was sa:'i.d i.n t.he Auditor General's Report, that there is not proper plann t ng, for guidelines and procedures, or a proper prior-tty l..lst for highway funding in the Province . Now , t his is a parochial interest, I g 11 e s s , f r• om the fa c t 1: hat t he $50 , 000 t ha t you tal k about for f u nd Ln g ls for · local roads boa r d s.

I h av e a p a r tic ular inter·es 1:. tn Lhts one because some of the communities that are involved in that are in rny district. I refer to McCallum where we have had some cor r E! s pond en c e b a c k and forth wit. h the minister. The terrible conditions of thE! footpai:h around McCallum were poinl:ed out even in a report that was made by the Integrated School Board, which said that the road was too bad to 1~se a wheelbarrow around thf.~ community to bring oil to the school.. Tl:: had l':.o be br·ought 'in buckets. So that is why I asked for t he e x t r· r.w r· d -:i. n a r y (-?. x p e n s e s .

T lri. s · i. s why I asked that that be l i stE!d. T s l': h H r· H cln y t h .i. n g ·i. n t: her· e 1:·. o t. c\ I< e care of the needs of this commLini.l:. y w~r'i.ch has contr :i.bu ·l: ed to the economy of the Province by pi~l·. t"i.ng 3. S rn'ill.ion poLII'lds of fish into the plant in Hermitage Jast year and creati.ng employment for 100 people for another three months? So basically that. i.s what I tAtould like to see from the Department of Transportation. I think if we got the breakdown under capital expense, current account and extraordinary expenses, then we No. 10 R530

wo u 1 d be in a p o s i t ion to be a b 1 e t~o look r,d~ tMhat I':JH>. m-i.n.isl·:er· is c1sking. As I have said, we want Lo co-oper·al:<-?. to make st.tr·e t:hi'lt the business or the Province is gotten on tAri.th. We feel that we have a responsibility to the people we represent to Find out exactly what is in thts $124 million. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Windsor) re'ferre!d to the Department of Public Works, and as I wear that other hat as well, I ask him :if he could possibly do the same thing in the Department of Public Works, as the leader just did, again, under the ex ~r·aordinary expenses.

I tAiondt:~r if any of the extraordinary e x p e n s e s t h a t i. s r· e q wi. r· e d 1:. h e r· ~:~ i. s taken up in the renovations to the offices for Lha new C~binet mjnister and the change from where t:he M-i.n-i.sl ... er· of Fi.nance tAlent, Fr·o111 the President of Treasury Board to h"i.s office and Lhe rr-?.novat.i.ons there. Are they included in that? It i.s the-?. same tJJRY for· U'l<.;! House Leader (Mr. Simms). Are those expenses included in there?

So it might be an idea if you just give and look u.lill for us that, with thE! he!adings, we will. be happy to have a at it and I am sure that we be only too happy to pass it you. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman . MR. ·cHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Bellevue. SOME HON . MEMB~RS: Hear·, hear! MR. CAlLAN: Mr. Cha"i.rrnan, T l:hot.tght pc;!dli~\ps one of the ministers might want to respond, bul~ obv-i.ousl.y · nol.:. L531 March 2 S, 19 8 8 Vol XL MR. PATTERSON: Ther•r;! i.s noLhi.ng to r·espond to . MR. CALLAN : Not really, it is pE!tty and fool.'ish nonsE:Hlse.

People in Newfoundland do not really care abolJt these things. They are ongoing things. Ministers must have offices. The people who I run into at least, and I am not. talkJ.ng in recent days, I am talking about months and months and years ago, they say, 'WeJ.J., if the Liberals were in there they would be doing the same things. They would have big expense accounls, and thr->.y tAIOlild have big elaborate offices.' So thE! peopJ.e o u t the r· e do not r· e:~ a 1 l. y c a r· e . Mr·. Cha i.r•JrtiHl, what I tAian t. l.:o do this morning, I want to ·e!rnbE!lli .sh on a press rela~se that T sent upstairs earlier.

PE!rhaps I tAd.ll gel: 1:-.'i.rne l .. o get i.nto 'i.t and p e r hap s I wi 11 not . If I do no t , there will be l.ol:s of t'i.me between now and June. I rrdght say as 1 got 'in l-.o rny car th:i.s rnor·ning, rny '83 MontE! CarJo in Norman's CoVE! thts rnornoi.ng, a car that. my daughter gaVE! me, and usually :it is the other tAiay ;u·otmd, but any way, a car that my d~:wght.E!r gaVE! me so that I lAIOuld be able to come back and forth t