Time : 8:0 0 p.m . LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday , 14 April 1980 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR . CHAIRM AN , Morris McGregor (V irden) : Call the committee to order . We 'r e on 2.( c) (l) . The Member for Kildon an. MR . PETER FOX: Thanks Mr . Chairman . Just to follow up where we left off before Private Members ' Hour , can the Minister indicate how often these sales take place and where they are advertised?

And further , to indicate whether the furni­ ture that is available and that I understand can be spoken for, is part and parcel of the sale , or are some of those things sold prior to the sale being announced , because otherwise , some of the public would not be aware that some of the stuff had already gone . MR . CHAIRM AN : The Honourable Minister. HON . HARRY J. ENNS (L akeside ): Mr . Chairman , I appreciate the Member for Kildonan ' s concern.

I, like he , probably do not peruse the daily papers to the same extent that perhaps we ought to , but I am advised that there is always a public advertis ement in the papers advertising these sal es , it 's a matter of long practice. The car sales take place at the new provincial garage once a year , although there is consideration now being given to doing that possibly twice a year .

I don't want to open up a new area of debate unnecessarily , but having come to the conclusion of maintaining the present policy with respect to government vehicles , we have an accelerated program of bringing the vehicles to comply with the government regulat ions . As a result , we have had a number of vehicles , that in the interim have piled up a considerable amount of mileage and are aging and so we may well be facing the necessity of having a sale more often than once a year .

But to answer the member 's question , the sales are at the garage ; there is a public advertise ment that is placed in the newspapers. Some of them are by auc­ tion ; some of them are by tender . I'm advised that the last large sale was by auction. We tender out the auctioneering services. I can inform the honourable member that I think some - we heard of 10 , 12 Manitoba auctioneers that bid on the privilege to hold the auction . I can indicate to the honourable member that an auctioneer by the name of Mr.

Ray Eichler from the community of Teulon - when the proposal to auction - so we even tender out the tender on whose to be the auc tion­ eer on these sale s. MR . FOX : So therefore , the adverti sement would also include an opportunity for people to view the goods and the vehicles in adva nce. Is there also an ap­ praisal for them and a reserve bid so the stuff doesn 't go at below what 's it 's worth? MR . ENNS : Mr.

Chairman , subject to some advice from staff, but I would hold that once the decision is made that the goods are surplus to Crown needs , that they are then available either in the tendering system or on the auction system with no reserve bids . We obviously have made the decision that they are no longer of any requirement to government , and any moneys acquired as a result of the disposal we consider an asset. MR . FOX : Thank you , Mr. Chairman . Just now, to switch to the other side of the buying .

Can the Minister inform us the kind of tendering that is done , and is it done on trade names or just on specific goods, so that others who do not have a trade name would be able to bid in on the tenders , for furniture especially? - 2399 -

Monday , 14 April 198 0 MR . ENNS : Mr. Chairman , I believe we 'r e somewhat afield from the particu­ lar appropriation under the heading of Improvements to Building , Grounds , Altera­ tions , Furniture, etc . This question - and I would be happy to address it - would more appropriately be discussed under the Purchasing Bureau . There are matters that I would like to discuss with members of the committee under that

section . I don 't wish to avoid the question , but Mr. Chairman , I think we do have under Sup­ ply and Services the whole area of procurement for the Central Vehicle Branch, how we buy ca rs, how we buy office equipment . The whole Purchasing Bureau is ••• MR . FOX : I'l l wait , Mr . Chairman . MR . CHAI RMAN : The Member for Elmwo od , I believe . MR . RUSSELL DOERN : Mr. Chairman , just on the auctioneering part , I receiv­ ed a complaint back in August or September by a local auctioneer who was quite annoyed because he said the provincial government is using an auctioneer from Alberta .

At that time I cut out what I believe was the correct advertisement, somebody named Nazby or Nazeby , bonded industrial auctioneers . There was an ad in one of the local papers ; from the print , it looks like the Tribune , Saturday , September 1, 1979 . They were selling stuff in Edmo nton ; crawler tractors, crawler loa der , scrapers, etc. They had an auction at The Pas , Manitoba , October 15, selling Manitoba Forestry Resources and others ; sawmill equipment, crawler trac­ tors , skidders , feller bunchers, wheel loa ders , trucks and much more . The ques­ tion is this , Mr.

Chairman , if this is a provincial government and there are doz­ ens and dozens of auctioneers bonded in Manitoba , why do we have to go out of province to conduct an auction? Shouldn 't we give preference or exclusive rights to Manitoba auctioneers? MR . ENNS : Mr. Chai rman , I can advise the honourable member that Government Services has not used out-of-province auctioneers ; that we use in fact the provin­ cial auctioneers that are available to us . I am trying to go by some recollec­ tion .

There was a fairly substantial disposal of earth-moving and construction equipment , a consortium of contractors , that had been employed in the north on the Nelson River Project s, independently and privately arranged for a substantial sale of construction equipment . I'm not sure whether that was done under the aegis of the Manitoba Hydro , which may be , and the question might as well be directed to the responsible Minister .

But my understanding is that this was essentially a group of contractors involved in the Hydro projects that were disposing of some equipment , and they as a group had hired this Alberta auctioneer . But I can indicate to you as far as these estimates are concerned , and as far as the prac­ tices of Government Services are concerned , that we find no reason for going out of province to hire auctioneers. MR . DOERN : Mr.

Chairman , I think the Minister is clearly guessing or improvising , and I think that what he should do is take the question as notice and perhaps give the committee the information tomorrow, because this is CFI equip­ ment . We 'r e not talking about Hydro , we 'r e talking about CFI equipment - it 's on behalf of Manitoba Forestry Resources. I assume that Government Services handles their auctioneering , and if not , they should indicate guidelines to the company . And I am just saying , he clearly doesn 't know , and so I ask him therefore not to guess , but to give us the information when he acquires it. MR .

ENNS : Mr. Chairman , to the honourable member , I do know and I' m not guessing . In the year 1979 -80 we sold by tender five electric cars for $9 , 160 . 00 . We sold for the Churchill Prefab Company by tender , $5 , OOO worth of equipment ; by au ction , another $5 , 000 worth of equipment . We sold 95 buses for the Department of Education by four tenders for the purchase price of $58 ,0 00 .0 0. We sold furniture in the Department of Government Services by auction at Brandon to the tune of $7 , 300 . 00 .

We sold 70 vehicles to the Department of Government Services Central Vehicles Branch, by auction in Winnipeg , for $81 ,0 00.0 0. We sold a further supply of furniture by Department of Government Services, by tender out of Winnipeg, by $7 ,5 00 .0 0. We sold office machinery by the Department of Govern­ ment Services, by tender out of Winnipeg , for $12 , 050 . 00 . We sold sheet pil ing - 2400 -

Monday , 14 April 1 980 for the Department of Highways at the Manitoba Hydro location for $4 5,0 00 .0 0. We sold further miscellaneous materials by the Department of Highways for the Depart­ ment of Highways, by tender out of Winnipeg , for $10 ,0 00 .0 0. We sold further miscellaneous materials by the Department of Government Services , several tenders by Manitoba and auction , for the tune of $80 ,0 00 , the total amount being $320 ,0 00 00 . That is the full amount of Crown assets disposed by Government Services. That is not a gue ss, that is not an estimate, those are factual figures, Mr. Chairman . MR .

DOERN : The Minister still didn 't answer my question . My question was: Were you the agency through which the Manitoba Forestry Resources Limited material was sold? MR . ENNS : Mr. Chairman , I must assume , inasmuch as some items by the agency were liste d for sale , alt hough there is a possibility that Crown agencies , established as they are with their own board of directors , from time to time dis­ pose of certain assets within their own jurisd iction , but the question put to me was the amount of Crown assets disposed by this department , which I have just lis ted for the honourable member . MR .

DOERN : Mr. Chairman , I think the Minister is still not answering the question . Does the Manitoba Forestry Resources sell their own material without reference to the government? Is that what he is tel ling me? MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman, they are a Crown corporation with full authority to do so . MR . DOERN : Then wouldn 't it make sense to suggest or discuss with these Crown corporations that they should either exclusi vely , or almost without excep­ tion , employ Manitoba auctioneers . I assume that we have people who can do this job and I don 't see why we have to bring in people from other provinces .

I mean , if you want to extend it , you could bring in people from the United States. I don 't see why Crown corporations don 't do this. I don 't know , maybe the Forestry Resources is totally autonomous but I' m just saying that my recommendation would be that if Government Services isn't handling it , then perhaps the Minister who is in charge of purchasing and has other responsibilities , that I think would not be inconsistent with him discussing this matter with Crown corporations and , if not telling them, at least suggesting to them that they should use local people . MR . ENNS : Mr .

Chairman , I agree with the memb er 's suggestion . MR . DOERN : Another area , Mr . Chairman , that I would like to ask a few questions on is whether the Minister could give us a breakdown - now , I don't know whether this is the right place - I wanted to ask some questions about the res­ taurant in the Woodsworth Building - I don 't know if this is the area , or where it would logically fall . Okay , it 's as good as any? Mr.

Chairman , the Minister in his wisdom , or lack of it , judging from public reaction , decided - I have known Harry a long time , don't forget - decided that he would take the highly successful operation at the Woodsworth Building , run by John Jaschinski and his wife , which was kind of a family restaurant and was so popular that people were coming from all over Winnipeg . It was so popular that it was clogging up the building ; it was leadin g to long lines ; there were pensioners coming here from all over ; there were people from the suburbs riding by bus; it was an incredible success story .

These were people who had operated a series of restaurants , they were small operators with a big following ; they were a little different than a large catering firm and they had a contract and they were immen­ sely successful. Now we tried to operate on a policy of competition , namely that we would try to have different caterers in the downtown area for di fferent buildings so that if somebody was a littl e better then it might cause some traffic from one build ing to anothe r.

When you put the same caterer in a whole series of build ings the food tends to be the same , and therefore , there can 't be any competition , so we are almost arguing each other 's positions here - normal phil osophical positions. - 2401 -

Monday, 14 April 1980 So I say to the Minister that he had an operation there that was immensely successful. He then decided, because of a slight dif ference in tenders, to bust out the Jaschinski famil y. There was quite a hue and cry on the part of the pub­ lic . I don 't believe that the present operation in the Woodsworth Building is as good as the one that was replaced . I think that from the number of people that go there, if that can be a guide, I think that business has fallen off considerably . I know that in this build ing, in terms of the MLA 's dining room, that the prices have gone up considerably .

I don 't know the exact ratio, whether it 's 50 percent or what, but there have been quite a few price increases in the last few months, in the sense that since the new caterer took over - and there 's also been a re­ duction in the hours and in the services availab le . So as before, although we were open at night and people could go and have a dinner between 5:3 0 and 8:0 0, that is now changed ; the prices are up ; certainly no improvement in the food, no improvement at al l. In the case of the Woodsworth Building I think that the food isn't as good and certainly the numbers are less than they were before .

So I say to the Minister that this decision that he took apparently was done on the basis of dollars alone and I ask him whether given these people, I think, do, I don• t know if they do the Northway Buildin g, the Woodsworth Building and this build ing, or whether they do three buildings, I believe, I' m not sure. It 's the Woodsworth Build ing, the Legislative Building and what is the third one? Is it the Northway Building or the Archives Building?

At any rate, the Minister has broken out a small operator, a family firm, and replaced it with a large operator, allowed the prices to rise and to a certain extent - particularly in the case of one building, I believe the quality is not as good - so has it proved worthwhile? I don't think so and I just wondered if the Minister had some observations . Given all these restaurants and the total volu me of rent, maybe he could give us the rental dif ferences, because he did throw out a figure, I think, of $14 , OOO or $15 ,0 00, but I would like to know what the bids were in each particular pla ce. MR . ENNS : Mr .

Chairman, let me at the outset state that while in the Honourable Member from Elmwo od ' s perception this was a small, family business concern, but it happened to involve over half-a- million dollars worth of gross sales per annum .

Secondly, the caterer, as much as certainly I, who have enjoyed the food there at the time that the former caterer was there, would have prefer­ red, or indeed would have been- happy, I shouldn 't say preferred but would have been quite happy to have seen the same service continue, and indeed I exercised what The Public Works Act allows me to exercise, that is an extension of the con­ tract for an addit ional year, but then felt that it was for that amount of busi­ ness appropriate to go to tender . Thirdly, it wasn 't a matter of just being out by a small littl e bit . Of the nine tenders received Mr.

John Jaschinski placed sixth in that category of tenderers . So what the honourable member is really asking me to do is to very seriously ignore the tendering system, and leave myself open, by the way, to very legiti mate charges of collusion or even worse, some other kind of charges that I would expect from an active opposition to charge a government minister when he blatantly ignores the tendering system.

In terms of the general service, I will defer, as I always do when I am pushed in the corner, I rely on prominent members of the media as my support and allow me to read him this passage from a well- known media person in this city . "Got to give credit where credit is due . Late last year after the provincial government announced that the Woodsworth Building cafeteria operation was to be taken over by Ritz Foods Ltd . I made the statement, I am betting right now that the new caterers can't meet the taste-buds standards established by the former proprietors .

The indication from the people who are dining in the cafeteria is that I lost that bet . I'm informed by some of those who were concerned that the services, the price and the food would be down-graded with a change, that their fears had been alleviated by terrific food, comparable prices and service that makes the diners feel that the proprietors want them to come back. A full-course dinner can be had for $1 .25 and that 's a good deal ". The Winnipeg news media . MR . DOERN : Who wrote that? I would like to know who the Minister is quoting . - 2402 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 MR . EN NS: Well the Honourable Member for Elmwood obviously always reads his paper .. Yes , it was Mr. Vic Grant , who is known to be sharp of tongue from time to time and somewhat abrasive from time to time . The honourable member raises a point and staff supports that , the fact of the matter is that we have not received any complain ts, the prices have remained very stable , and I would have been in serious difficulty had I rejected the tendering system in this instance. MR .

DOERN : I have to remind the Minister that he did in fact reject the tendering system when he extended the contract , so he did in fact do that once. The gross sales are , I don't know if that is any concern of the government, I suppose in a way it is , because don 't forget when the place was first leased out there was no estimate of what the success of the operation would be and I suppose it was sort of based on a square foot rent al . So the gross sales of Jaschinski may not be equalled by the present owner ; we don't know that . I still ask the Minister , what was the third building?

He still didn 't answer me there. What is the third buildi ng in the package : The Woodsworth Building , the Legislative Buildin g , and what 's the third one , or are there four? MR . ENNS : This is a list of the following contractors providing catering services in government buildings . In the Archives Building , it is Ritz Foods ; in the Legislative Build ing , it is Ritz Food s; in the Norquay Building , it is is Ritz Foods ; in the Woodsworth Building , it is is Ritz Foods ; in the Robert Fletcher Building , it is F.S. M. Food Systems Management ; in the Highway Services Building , it is F.S.M.

Food Systems Management ; at 270 Osborne Street , it is Ritz Foods ; at 693 Taylor , it is Sylvia Danyleyko ; at the Provincial Offices Building at Portage la Prairie , it is Tasty Bakery Limited ; at Provincial Offices Building at Dauphin, it is Larry DeVries ; at Assiniboine Community College , it is Beaver Foods ; at Provincial Offices Building , Brandon , it is Beaver Foods ; at Provincial Offices Build ing , Beausejo ur , it is Stella Martin ; at Provincial Offices Build ing , Thomp­ son , it is Gordon E.

McEachern Services ; at Fort Osborne Complex , it is Continent­ al ; at 1700 Portage Avenue , Winnipeg , it is Cater Plan ; at Dublin Square , it is Ritz Foods ; at Century Plaza , it is Continental . That is the li st. MR . DOERN: Mr . Chairman , then the package was the Woodsworth Buildi ng , the Legislative Building , the Norquay Building , and the Archives Buildin g . So you have all the major buildings under one caterer ; therefore , there can't be any competition in terms of food qual ity or , I suppose , menu .

My other question was: How much did Ritz bid in each instance , and then let 's look at the bid in the Woodsworth Building between Ritz and Jaschinski . MR . ENNS : Mr. Chairman , honourable members will appreciate that the bid­ ding on an item like food services, the department requires that the interested companies submit tenders on a specified menu , on that basis , or else there would be no way of evaluating comparable tenders unless all companies were in fact bid­ ding on a prescribed menu . It is on that basis that the rating follows .

I can indicate to the honourable members, it is a difficult area and it is a complicated formula that the department has worked out , but I can assure the honourable members that it is a formula that is understood by the catering busi­ ness. We have had di fferent indivi dual caterers come in and express concern about how we arrive at this formula .

I am assured that in all instances , the catering businesses felt that this was a reasonable and a fair way of evaluating the ten­ ders . it involves that all concessions should be , and this is a specific request by the people in the tendering business , that all concessions should be subject to public tender , that the notice of tenders be advertised in both Winnipeg news­ papers for Winnipeg locations , and in the local newspapers for rural locations . They further requested that the duration of the contract period is for three years , after which they will be re-tendered .

This has been a recent change , from two to three years . The format of the tender is planned so as to enable each tenderer to bid on an equal basis, i.e. , the same menu selection , quality stan­ dards , product specifications , and minimum serving portions . Tenderers are required to indicate sell ing price , proposed staffing with hours worked , own menu suggestions with selling price, and reimbursement to province , when required, - 2403 -

Monday, 14 April 198 0 particularly in such locations as the Norquay Building and the Woodsworth Build­ ing, where very prime and valuable space is being offered to the tenderer . So included with the menu bid, the tenderer is being asked to put in a price for the floor space occupied . There is an analysis that then takes pla ce. Each tenderer is considered with respect to (

a) the average price of each menu selection ; (

b) the average price of comparison combinations from menu selectio ns ; (

c) estimated annual sales from the comparison combinations ; (

d) the volume of sales based upon the total buildi ng populat ion ; (

e) average percentage of population indicated for each building par­ taking in lunch, also breakfast, if applica ble ; (

f) no visitors included in calcu­ lations ; (g) 249 working days equals one work year ; (

h) in additon to lunchtime patronage beverage breaks at the rate of two per day included in final calcula­ tions ; (i � the total number of servings for comparison combinations is estimated based upon the building 's population for a work year. You get into staffing, the number of personnel and hours worked taken direct from tenders ; hourly rates obtained from Stats Canada information ; average ascer­ tained for all cl assifications of staff lis ted . While it is readily acknowledged that the rate may not be quite exact, the fact of uniformity applying the same to each tenderer, results in a fair anal ysis .

The food cost is estimated at 40 percent of annual sales in this formula . Profit and capital costs is the surplus remaining from the estimated annual sales after the deduction of est imated food and labour costs. MR . DOERN : Could the Minister give us the figures? MR . ENNS : Mr.

Chairman, I am indicat ing to the honourable member that this is the formula that is applied, with fairness, to all tenders received and it is under this formula that the selection came down, as I indicated earlier, with Ritz Foods combined achieving rating No . l; Integ Food Services, who was the former caterer in the Legislative Build ing, rating No . 2; CNIB , having tendered separate­ ly for the Legislative Build ing, rated No . 2 as well in the Legislative Building; Integ Foods and Integ Food Services combined rated No . 3, that is, a combination of the Legislative Building and the Woodsworth Building ; Continental Caterers and CNIB, separately - Continental for the Woodsworth Build ing, CNIB for the Legisla­ tive Building - rated No . 4; Continental Caterers, both the Woodsworth Buildi ng and the Legislative Building combined, rated No . 5; Mr .

John Jaschinski, who ten­ dered only on the Woodsworth Buildin g, and CNIB, separately, on the Legisl ative Building, rated No . 6; then followed by S.F.M., Beaver Foods, and CNIB for both facili ties . MR . DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I detect some reluctance on the part of the Minister to answer the question . First of all, I realize that this has to be one of the most complicated areas of all because I have seen this computer printouts, or whatever they are . I mean, it is just ridiculo us .

It must be comparable to the information on the fighter plane decision that was just made the other day by the Trudeau governm ent . There are more formulas and figures than one could pos­ sibly imagine . But when all is said and done, there is some sort of a rating system, and the Minister said at the time of the change that there was more money in this for the government. I am asking him, how much money did each of these people bid for the Woodsworth Build ing space? Can he give us the doll ar figures, which are over a period of three years ; can he give us those top six figures? I note, Mr .

Chairman, that of the top six figures, two of the firms are named twi ce. Integ Foods is named twice and Continental is named twice, so in a sense, John Jaschinski and his wife came, I guess depending on how you want to figure it out, either fourth or sixth - but at any rate, could he give us the dollar figures of revenue to Government Services from these firms based on a three-year bid? MR . ENNS : Mr.

Chairman, if I can have the acceptance of committee members, obviously the former Minister of Public Works has some appreciation inasmuch that he was part of developing this formula that accepts the formula as being a reason­ able one, but perhaps on the one item such as the honourable member requests on the offer to pay for the space, say at the Woodsworth Build ing, Mr . John - 2404 -

Monday, 14 April 1980 Jaschinski offered the provincial government $25, OOO per annum for the space as compared to Ritz figure of $38 , 000 for the same space . I ask the honourable mem­ bers of the committee , as a public servant , how do I deny $38 ,0 00 money coming to the public purse as against $25, OOO with all other things being equal , without seriously inviting some charge that could legiti mately be put against this Min­ ister of Government Services or this department? MR. DOERN : Could the Minister give us the other bids?

And aga in , he 's now calling these for one year ; this is a one-year payment , not a three-year payment. MR . ENNS : It 's a one-year period , and it 's a three-year contract, so the di fference between the interested parties is, Mr . John Jaschinski bidding some $25, 000 for the space or $75 ,0 00 over a three-year period , as compared to Ritz at $38 , 000 times thr ee , then the figures start to mount up. MR . DOERN: So what are the other figures for Integ , CNI B, and Continental? MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman , I am advised that they will be made available to the committee .

I just have the winning contractor figures in front of me as well as the last caterer who held the concession. MR . CHAIRM AN : 2.( c) (l) - the Member for St . Vital . MR . D. JAMES WALDING : Mr . Chairman , I wanted to make a few remarks about accommodation in the build ing for members . I assume that I would be in order in making those comments under this particular heading . I wanted to tell a little story, Mr� Chairman , for the benefit of members of the committee , a little occur­ rence that happened a few months ago .

I'd just go back a few years and remind members that the previous government had made office space available to members , on a rather limited basis , I must adm it. Following the last election , this gov­ ernment had made even more space available to memb ers, space that was available to members of the opposition , that was considerably larger than before .

When that space was allocated to us , the Honourable Minister sent us a diagram of the space availa ble , with the partitions drawn in, and sent it to our caucus room for the benefit of members of the opposit ion to allocate amongst themselves the office space that was provided . I mention that because I have cause to come back a littl e bit later on that , Mr . Chairman . Through discussions between members of the opposition , the offices and the space available was allocated to members.

Where the offices were small there was generally one member ; where the offices were larger there were generally two members to an office. Following the by-elect ions last year , Mr . Chairman , there was a letter sent to the Leader of the Opposition indicating to him that because of Cabinet appoint­ ments, reassignments, and by-ele ctions , that space is becoming increasingly scarce and that there will have to be some rearrangement of offices.

It was indicated that the Member for Flin Flon and myself were to be evicted from the office that we occupied in the basement and that the newly elected Member for Fort Rouge would be taking over that space . It was further indicated that we were to be allocated office space sharing with other members and that at a short time later when there was other office space, we would be moved a second time into new office space. Now the letter was sent, not to me as an indi victual , and to Mr .

Barrow as an individual , nor to the chairman of our cau cus , as would be expected when the Min­ ister was dealing with members of the Legislature and their caucus, their office space , but to the Leader of the Opposition . The only way I found out about this threatened eviction was through receiving a copy of the letter from Mr . Pawle y. Now I'm not sure quite what the Minister was getting at with this, and I am sure that it would have appealed to his whimsical sense of humour to have the newly elected independent member fighting with the members of the official opposi­ tion . But be that as it may , Mr .

Chairman , I wrote a letter back to the Minister expla ining my dismay at this threatened eviction and protesting in the strongest possible terms the fact that the Minister had not even bothered to speak to me or to the Member for Flin Flon about his wish to move us from the office. I further obj ected to the fact that he was moving two long established and long-elected members out of a two-member office and replacing them with a single member in a - 2405 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 two-member office. I would not wish to deny the newly elected member office space , but I did point out to two col leagues that her predecessor from Fort Rouge had also occupied office space and that there was no mention made of this office space. Not only that , two members of the government side had recently been pro­ moted to the Cabinet and presumably the office space that they had occupied had become avail able ; no mention . Anyway , I heard nothing from it , Mr.

Chairman , and I had assumed that this foolishness was finished and that the matter had been put on one side and dealt with - until December 18th , Mr. Chairman. MR . ENNS : A day to remember. MR . WALDING : And that indeed was Again , Mr. Chairman , the Honourable Minister had again written to the Leader of the Opposition on the same topic of di sposessing two members of the Legislature from their office space . Again not even the common courtesy to contact those members directl y .

The letter was dated December 18 th; I did n't see a copy of it until an afternoon , either the next day or the following day when I was informed that my tel ephone and Mr. Barrow 's tele phone had been disconnected and removed from the office; and that even then employees of the department were in the office packing up the files and books in preparation to moving them out . That was the first word that I received , Mr. Chairman , that the Minister was carrying through his threat to dispossess us.

No copy of a letter , no phone call from the Minister, just his bailiff 's squad in there removing our possessions . -- ( Interjecti on)- - No , I had mentioned earlier that they were employees of the department . It so happened that on indicating to the office that by special messenger a copy of this lette r was brought down to our caucus room so that I could be infor­ med that due notice had been given. This was about 3:3 0 in the afternoon , Mr. Chairman, it was indicated to me that the office had to be cleared by 8:0 0 a.m. the next morning so that some new tenant could move into the office .

I did notice that this time there was a slig ht change in the format of the letter , that it did indicate at the bottom, "Blind copy to T. Barrow and J. Walding ." So we made pro­ gress , Mr. Chairman , that we are mentioned on a letter to someone els e even though we do not receive the letter . As a result of a number of phone calls the Minister took no action , and I have to tell him , Mr .

Chairma n, that it was only because of the common sense - I have to put it as plainly as that - of the Deputy Minister who looked at the situation and saw the ridiculousness of moving two members from that office into another one ; then to be moving them into a further office when the simple sane easy solu­ tion would be simply to move the newly electe d member into one of the newly vacated offices, as a matter of fact , immediately adjacent to the office that Mr. Barrow and I presently and still occupy. Mr .

Chairman , here is another matter that the Minister himself has bungled in a most incompetent manner anu the situa­ tion was saved for him as I mentioned before by the plain common sense of the Deputy Minister for which I do comment him and congratulate him on that sanity of thought. MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman , it 's one of my problems , I give zee orders and nobody obez em. MR . CHAIR MAN : 2. (c) (l)- -pa ss; 2. (c) (4)- -pass ; 2. (5 )- -pas s; 2. (d) (l)- -pa ss. 2. (c) (2) --p ass ; 2. (c) (3) --p ass ; The Member for Elmw ood . MR . DOERN : Mr . Chairman , there 's a couple of interesting questions here .

One is, agai n, I believe last year if my memory serves me correctly there was some 230 , OOO square feet of vacant space throughout the government which would be , I think , roughly equivalent to the space in the Woodsworth Building .

I wonder if the Minister could tell us , at this point in time , how many square feet there are that is vacant in government office buildings throughout the province and in the city of Winnipeg , in particular ; and if he could also give us the SMY comparisons for last year and this year so we can see whether any of the space has been taken up , whether it 's related to the number of civil servants and so on . - 2406 -

Monday , 14 April 198 0 MR . ENNS : Mr. Chairman, in the previous year , 179 , total government space was some 7, 137 , 180 square feet ; compares to March, '8 0, in this estimates of 7, 072 , 471 square feet or a reduction of some 64 , 709 feet. The present vacant space is some 3.3 percent . No w, that further has to be defined as to vacant space that is avai lable , as compared to assignable space and we find that we have some 180 ,296 square feet that is non-assign able .

Actual space , vacant space available for utilization is some 55, 301 square feet which brings down the vacant utiliz able space represents less than 1 percent as a percentage of a total leased and owned space . Mr.

Chairman, I should indicate to you that since those estimates were pre­ pared , there have been some substantial increases to space requirements that the members would be aware of, principally , the 46 , OOO square feet of space , new space , leased for the Department of Highways; the additional space, in fact , that we talked about this aft ernoon for the Department of Energy and Mines which has received Treasury Board approval of some 10 , 000 square feet ; Labour and Manpower for their Career Resource Centre has asked for an additi onal 1, 100 feet ••• MR . DOER N: I'm sorry , how many feet was that? MR .

ENNS: 1, 100 feet and Municipal Affairs for space requirements in the community of Morden and Portage la Prairie, 1, 500 feet in both locations for an ad ditional 3,0 00 feet , for a total addition of 60, 100 square feet . That brings the revised space requirements for the year '8 0 to 7,1 32 ,5 71 square feet of space for a net reduction - if the honourable member refers back to last year 's total space - of some 4, 609 square feet . We have a vacant , in percentage terms of available util izable space of something in the order of .8 percent. MR . DOE RN: Mr.

Chairman , I' m not sure I' m followin g the Minister here. He said at the beginning there were 55, OOO square feet of usable office space, I believe , that was vacant . MR . ENNS : Correct . MR . DOERN: And now ju st recently - I guess a few weeks ago or whatever - they 'v e moved the Motor Vehicle Branch people and other people and , surely , this must add to the amount of vacant space rather than subtract from it . Is that right or not? If you had 55,0 00 before and you 'r e now moving people into leased space, it seems to me that you now have additional vacant space that you didn 't have before . MR .

ENNS : Mr. Chairman, first of all , the move - if we want to discuss the Motor Vehicle Branch, the Department of Highways - in the int erchange of space there, the Member for Elmwood is well aware of the probl ems of space that opera­ tion has been facing over a goodly number of ye ars . Indeed , the former adminis­ tration 's response to that space problem was to plan for an Autopac builaing to , I believe , house the major portions, or all of the Motor Vehicle Branch in concert with that build ing.

I point that out solely to indicate that this administrat ion , like the previous admin istration , recognizes the very real need for space by the Department of Highways and Transportation and the Motor Vehicle Branch.

Furthermore , within the coming year , with the space being made availabl e, the retention of space now available to the Motor Vehicle Branch at 1075 Portage , that consolidation of some of the related services to the Motor Vehicle Branch, such as the Highway Traffic Board , the Motor Transport Board , Licence Suspension Appeal Board , and other services that make imminent good common sense , can now be and will be housed at 1075 Portage Avenue , where they are in close relationship to the central records and services provided by the Motor Vehicle Branch in carrying out their functions. MR . DOE RN : Mr.

Chairman, I am simply saying to the Minister that if he had 55, 000 square feet vacant before and he is leasing space outside the system, he now has more than 55, 000 square feet of office space vacant . Is that not so? - 2407 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 MR . ENNS : No , Mr. Chairman , that is not so . The 55 ,0 00 square feet is made up of a number of small facilities scattered throughout the province . I suppose the point at issue is that the additi onal 46 ,0 00 square feet , for in­ stance , that is being leased for the Department of Highways, by all measurements , by all yardsticks of space requirement , does not free up any addit ional space , but does not add to that 55 ,0 00 square feet that the honourable member refers to. It does in a temporary way but we have already served notice on several instances.

I am thinking particularly of the premises that the Highway Traffic Boards occupy - the leases are not being renewed , they are terminating ha lf -way through this year, in June or July , and these functions will be transferred over to space that is now available for them in the Motor Vehicle Branch. We do n't ga in , we simply recog­ nize a long overdue needed expansion of space for the Department of Highways and Transportation in that ma jor acquisiti on of new space . I appreciate what the Honourable Member for Elmwood is sa ying .

He is saying that if I had 55, OOO empty square feet of space now and I am indicating to him that I am leasing 46, 000 new space at the Central Credit Plaza Building , that obviously I am adding to my empty space, but it doesn 't work out that way , Mr . Chairman . MR . DOERN: Mr . Chairman , there are some very sizeable blocks of space that are being leased by the government at what probably are pretty high prices: 46, 000 square feet at the Central Credit for the Motor Vehicle Branch; MP IC from - is it the Royal Bank , or which bank is it? MR . ENNS : The Bank of Montreal . MR .

DOERN : Is that 50 , 000 square feet , or how many thousand square feet is that that they are leasin g from the bank? MR . ENNS : Mr . Chai rman , Government Services , the member will appreciate , does not lease that space for MPIC ; MPIC does its own leasing . I believe the member is correct , it is in the neighbourhood of 51 ,0 00 square feet . MR . DOER N: Could the Minister indicate what the square foot rental cost is at Central Credit and what the total annual cost is of that space? MR .

ENNS : I believe the Hono urable the Minister of Highways, who was with us for a moment , had that item in his esti mates. It is of the order of half a million dolla rs, $540 ,0 00 , I believe . I am seeking some guidance from staff at this moment . The rental space at Central Plaza came in at something like $7 .2 5, $7 .1 5 per square foot . I can indicate to the honourable member that there was a very active bidding for that space with Manual Life just across the street here and Eaton Place actively bidding for the tenancy of the Department of Highways.

The total amount just hovers around the half-million dollar mark. The base price of the lease was in the neighbourhood of $7 .2 5 per square foot . MR . DOERN: That was $7 .2 5 for Central Credit? MR . ENNS : Yes. MR . DOERN: For 46 , 000 square feet , is that right? MR . ENNS : That 's correct. MR . DOERN: Well, that doesn't come out to half a million a year ; that comes out to 300 , 000- something per year. MR . ENNS : Pardon me , I used the base price . The accumulative price of parking , utiliti es, etc. , raises that to cl ose to $11 .0 0, $10 .80 , in that area . MR .

DOERN : So we are now talking about $10 .8 0 a square foot, and that 's some $5 40 ,0 00 a year? - 2408 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 MR . ENNS: Yes. MR . DOEHN: That 's on the Central Credit, which is a co-op , is it? MR . ENNS : Owned by the credit unions of Manitoba , yes . MR . DOERN: Right . In the case of the biink, I gather you said that - I don't know, I wrote down a figure of $540 ,0 00 there as well . Maybe it 's not pre­ cisely that . I don't know if the Highways Minister - I don't know if that 's Vic Grant down there or whether that 's the Highways Minister ; I can't tell from this distanc.e , they both have mustaches. It strikes me that must be of the order of $10 .0 0 a square foot too . MR. ENNS : Mr.

Chai rman , that 's the kind of information that we can ask of Mr . Dutton when MPIC is before the Public Utilities Committee . But I woul dn 't be surprised if that wouldn 't be of the same order in terms of both being relatively new and modern office space in downtown Winnipeg . MR. DOERN: I wonder , Mr . Chairman , whether the Minister could indicate the length of both leases as to what they are ; when do they expire? MR . ENNS : Mr. Chairman , I don 't want to be called to order but I don't think it is germaine to be talkin g about Autopac 's lea se. I don 't mind talking about it.

It 's lease expires relatively soon. In fact , we are in the market for finding a home for Autopac at this time ; it has been indicated to us by the Bank of Montreal that they require their space . The member may recall that a one-year extension of their lease was made some year ago , I believe , or two years ago by the then Minister responsible for MPIC , the Honourable Mr. McGill , so that the MPIC leasin g arrangem ents are running out . I believe they run to November of 19 82, if I'm not mistaken ; the lease for the Highways' facilit ies in the Central Credit Plaza Building is for a duration of five years .

MR . DOERN: 1985. Mr. Chairman , my point is this : Here we have the two department , they are renting almost 100 , OOO square feet . They are spending a million doll ars a year for rent . I ask the Mi nister , in view of the interaction between the two department s, and I think he would appreciate this as somebody who , I guess, who has been involved in Highways for a period of years and also is res­ ponsible for Autopac , that there is an interrelationship between the two depart­ ments , the Motor Vehicle Branch and MPIC.

There are 100,000 square feet for starters ; you are paying prime rates downtown of the order of almost $11 .0 0 a square foot . You are paying over a million dollars a year for rental . Has the Minister given any serious thought to constructing a building? Our administration planned a building and was going to proceed ; wWe acquired the land ; knocked down the old Brunswick , which I think was an achievement in itself ; and I asked him •• MR. ENNS : The Historical Society might have something else to say about that . MR . DOE RN: Yes, they mig ht .

The people who walked the streets had a different opinion, however. As a matter of fact , Mr . Chairman , I believe the Historical Society was sounded out , or at least gave their judgement that it was not particularly a building that was worth preserving . The only time I ever ventured into the Brunswick was when I was assured repeatedly that it was empty and that it was safe to walk inside that historic structure .

I am saying , given the amount of space , the amount of rent , the relationship between the two departments which are , you know , blocks apart , which is not an efficient form of operation, the fact that you are going to be sent out , ordered out of the Bank of Montreal Building within a year or two , woul dn 't it make sense to build the government requirement in that pla ce, with that design , or if you want to scrap plans , get your own architect and do it all over again from the beginning .

But doesn 't it make good sense to build government requirements when they are going to be over a lon g period of time , when it 's obvious that there are certain advantages in construction as opposed to leasing? - 2409 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman , no , it doesn 't make particularly good sense when we have a market situation of commerciall y available lease space in the city and when, I can indicate to the honourable members - I am not prepared to indicate the different proposals now before the Board of MPIC for new space facil ities - there is a very good lik el ihood that any proposal accepted will, in effect , produce the same construction , and in that I share the honourable member 's concern for activity in the construction field .

To develop this space I know of a proposal that currently the board of directors of Autopac have before them and are con­ sidering for their judgement that would involve the construction of a new build­ ing , indeed , it would give them the title to the building as such, in terms that it would be the Autopac Buildin g; or within current deve lopment schemes within the city - I need not mention them but the member can use his imagination - there are several there that are very obviously vying for a major tenant such as Autopac , who have indicated that tenancy by a major government cl ient such as Autopac would spur virtually immmediately further multimillions of doll ars of devel opment in their particular developm ents.

What I can tell the honourable member, and this is why I say it doesn 't make good sense , I know there is the understandable acceptance of fact that owning the building , for some reason or oth er, should be cheaper than leasin g a build ing , but the truth of the matter is that if we take the costs that were estimated at the time that the honourable member was involved in government amortized over a 40-year period , as compared to the space that we have now just acquired for the Highways Branch in the new and modern Central Credit Plaza Building , the 40-year per annum costs of owning that building , which was estimated to come in at some $16 million, would have been $14 . 26 per square foot as compared to the $11 per square foot that we are paying to the Central Credit Union movement for the next 40 years , so that there is not indeed that savings that you would think naturally accrues and indeed it can be said that we are contributing to and helping a most worthwhile organization in meeting their costs and providing the necessary spur to commercial development in downtown Winnipeg .

MR . DOE RN: Mr. Chairman , I don't accept what the Minister has said. If you build your own building you also have an equity in that building which you don 't have if you rent and you also are talkin g about a present market condition . If you are going to be paying rent and your lease is up in a few years you may be paying a lot more if the rents rise . It 's true that at the moment there is over-building in Winnipeg but you put that over a 40-year period you ' re not talkin g about the same rent . If that slack is taken up you may get a massive increase in the price that you are paying .

I simply say to the Minister that , first of all , he 's not measuring the in­ efficiencies of the two operations in different locations . He 's not putting a price tag on that and , secondly , you have to compare apples and apples . I remind him that a private developer has to have a profit figured in; he has to have a profit contained in his lease , so that if you are leasing from somebody , in there , somewhere is a figure for a return on his investment . Some advantage that we have that he doesn 't have is that we don't have to pay the federal sales tax on build­ ing materials .

You can use the same contractors that he does , you can use the same architects that he does , and if you use the same materia ls , because some­ times , you know , you can build a cheap building with high maintenance versus a build ing that 's more expensive to build on a square foot basis, but then you have lower maintenance over a period of time and it 's well worth the original investment .

I am simply saying to the Minister that I think , in general , where you take a specific instance where you have a relationship between two agencies of government - and he shoula know this better than anybody - Autopac and MPIC, there must be some economies of scale if they were in the same building and if they could inter-relate and access some of the same faciliti es.

I would also ask the Minister if he could give us , if not today , maybe tomorrow , some figures on the total cost of government leasing this year , or let 's say last year versus this year ; if he has those handy , if he could give us the dollar valu es. - 2410 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 MR . ENNS: Mr. Chairman , the honourable member and I will simply have to agree to di sagree on that subje ct . I appreciate the honourable member 's point of view but that is a matter of fundamental di fference between the honourable member and myself . He chooses not to believe these cost figures that the department has inaeed workea out . He indicates that may be the case today because of a current market situation in commercial space .

I have to remind the honourable member when costs rise , as they inevitably do in today 's age , that they also rise for the operation and maintenance of government buildin gs, and by any scale of measure­ ment , whether it is a building owned by government or a build ing owned by somebody in the private sector , the costs of the maintenance and operation of a mul ti-sto ried , large commercial office building are there.

They are there in field costs ; they are there in labour costs and they are there in costs that both the private sector and the public sector has to meet in adhering to any changes in building code regul atio ns , in fire code regul atio ns , etc. , etc. MR . DOERN : Mr. Chairman , I would ask the Minister since he appears not to intend to proceed with the develop ment of the land beside the Centennial Concert Hall and the Museum of Man and Nature in particular , again I remind him that it was in conjunc tion with the City of Winnipeg that we decided to build at that site .

There was an option I think , to build that build ing almost anywhere , bear­ ing in mind that when you are talkin g about the MPIC building you would want one in the Motor Vehicle Branch where the public could easily access it with buses , etc . My leader is coming in and he 's the former Autopac Minister as well . He will recall the dis cussion for a new Autopac Motor Vehicle Branch building beside the Museum of Man and Nature .

If the Minister is not 60ing to proceed for a variety of reasons and also not respond to the city 's request and earlier agreements between the city and province to build a number of build ings in the core area , what does he intend to do with the land? There was an acquisition of land there , there was an acquisition of land being made beside the City Hall , so there 's two prime parcels of land , and as he once said in the press some months ago "When you acquire land you can't miss because the value is bound to increase" . So it has to be a profitable enterprise . But there are two large packages of land .

Is he going to hold on to them for future potential provincial needs ; is he going to sell them ; is he going to use them for parking? Can he indicate what their future disposition will be? MR . ENNS : Mr. Chairman, to answer an earlier question I direct the honour­ able member 's attention to Item (d) (2) which I'm advised is in fact the total lease costs of the space in question , the total lease requirements of the govern­ ment . You will note a raise from last year 's printed estimates of $5 .5 million to $5 .8 million. I believe the honourable member asked for the total lease costs.

I am advised that is , in essence , the total lease cost. The honourable member 's questions with respect to the land assembled previously in the downtown area , I can indicate to the honourable member and I don't wish to overstate this at this time but very prel iminary discussions with representatives of the city are that they have expressed an interest in this land .

The city is looking at some requirements for expansion of their own administrative offices and buildin gs , adjacent to and within the City Hall , and certainly the government would be disposed to look favourably at allo wing or providing the city with the opportunity of acquiring this land for such purposes. Discussions are of a very prel iminary nature . The city has not put forward specific proposals at this time . I should also indicate that the province 's interests in this land have not by any means been exhausted , we simply have made the decision not to use the land for which it was originally purchased .

But that does not exclude future provincial plans that may well take place either as a province or in concert with the city , subject to future negotiations with the city as to what might be built or dev­ eloped on these lan ds. As the member indica tes, the land is not depreciat ing in value and some of the buildings that occupy some of that land have been made available again to charitab le , volunteer organizations for use so that even in their vacancy it is providing some service to different groups and citizens of Manitoba for the various programs that they are undertaking . - 2411 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 MR. DOERN : Mr. Chairman , I would also ask the Mi ister if he can indicate at this time • • This could be asked, under a number of pla ces , but again he seemed to indicate in his announcement the other day about the court build ing that there was a likelihood that the old garage would tend to be demolished and that there would be a possible holdin g facility built there and therefore a move into the new provincial garage , which has been partly used. Does he have any target dates for accessing the new provincial garage? MR. ENNS : Mr.

Chairman , inherent with the decision to proceed with the major deve lopment of the ju dicial system in this area and recognizing that the future requirements, even though those plans aren 't that detailed , will be callin g for a remand facility in that area , a decision has been made to move into the new garage at Logan and Henry sometime this fall, thus freeing up immediatey some 150 spaces of parking within the compound that 's adjacent to the garage , as well as , for the time being , the garage itself will provide some indoor parking for justices and other members that require parking in that area. Mr.

Chairman, the question about the new garage , alt hough details aren 't com­ plete 1 we look forward to entering into a longer term arrangeme nt , supported by the Department of Education and Ottawa , that will involve the util ization of some 25 percent of the present space of the new provincial garage , for ongoing space requirements by Red River Community College in their Automotive Division.

The members will be aware that , at present , Red River Community Colle ge occupies some 14 ,8 53 square feet of that space ; Manitoba Telephone System occupies a further 4, OOO square feet of that space and again we 'v e had organizations such as Skills Unlim ited , which because of an unfortunate fire was in emergency need of space , as well as such other functions li ke the ChristH.as Cheer Board that were merrily packaging Christmas parcels at the Yuletide season in that facility.

But the long-term pro jects are that the Department of Education has requested from us to provide for them , for at least in the next three years , 25 percent of that space for a continuation of the automotive courses offered by Red River Community College and with very minor alter ations , virtually just a wall that would separate that portion that would be used by the students of Red River Community College. We would then be in a position to utilize the remaining por­ tion of the garage for the purpose for which it was originally intended. MR. DOERN : Mr.

Chairman , I'l l resist the opportunity of launching into an attack at this point and say that I note what the Minister has just said. I would ask him also , the Public Safety Building , the province spent I think about $300 ,0 00 if I can recall the figure , renovating that facil ity putting in some - I'm not sure of the exact amount , I guess it was not that high - but whatever the amount was the fac ilit y was upgraded , there were a little bit of recreation facilities put in, a few TV sets, etc. to do something in that regard to improve the facility.

It 's now administered by Corrections staff as opposed to the Minister is tellin g me no; that •• MR. ENNS : The Public Safety Building is not under our jurisdicti on. MR. DOE RN : Wel l, it 's not my recollection. My recollection - I don 't know if the former Attorney-General is lis tening - but the Public Safety Build ing I believe , was taken over in the sense of the provincial government put money into it and repl aced City of Winnipeg Police with Corrections personnel, and therefore , we had an investment in that facility.

So I am relating it to this point , if the Minister proceeds as he indicated that when he talks about a new court buildi ng , renovations to the law courts, etc. , and he talks about a new court building as an extension of the law courts building , one of the purposes for the site of the old garage would be a holdin g facilit y. I believe that 's what he indicated the other day.

That would not be necessary if the court building were built where we in­ tended to build , which was by the City Hall ; so if there is a new holding facility , does that mean that the Public Safety Building facility will be wound down or phased out in view of new construction with a similar requirement in the downtown vicinity. - 2412 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman , I can only indicate to the honourable member , I have said this before , that both the Corrections people and the Court people have indicated that the Remand Centre would best be , it would be desirable that it be located quite apart and distinct from what I refer as to the Law Enforcement Buila ing, the City Police Safety Building .

And agai n, this is a decision that we have every reason to believe is very enthusiastically supported by both the Corrections and the Judicial community of the city of Winnipeg, and again I am informed that the city of Winnipeg is not at all displ eased with this decision . They have indeed every opportunity and plans for any available space that is freed up as a result of any future move of the Remand Centre out of the Public Safety Build ing. Mr. Chairman , I want to again for the record , make it very clear that we are not talking about a Remand Centre next year or the year thereafter.

The Remand Centre is some considerable di stance down the tube ; I don't know the precise sequence of planning but I would suggest we 'r e talking five or six years . It is a major facility , it 's estimated that it could come in anywhere from $5 mill ion to $15 million depending on the scale of operations that is being contemplated by the client department . The Department of Government Services is not now engaging or thinking of engaging architects or consultants for the plan and design of that facility .

We have our hands full in meeting the first three or four phases of the redevelopment of the judici al complex which involves the building of the Prov­ incial Judges Build ing , the total renovations of the old Law Courts Buildin g , the renovation of the Lands Titles Building ; all this adding up to a package of some $16 milli on inclusive of the $2 million spent at 373 Broadway .

I don' t mind speaking about the Remand Centre but I do not wish to mislead members of the committee into belie ving that the Remand Centre is part and parc el of these current plans of the judicial complex ; nor would I want to mislead people within the correctional system , or otherwise , that the Remand Centre is just around the corner. We have room , we see the common sense of freeing up the provincial garage site , the old provincial garage site , for badly needed parking and perhaps some minimal maintenance service, but in essence it now makes sense that we make the move to the new provincial garage . MR .

DOERN : Mr. Chairman , I'm happy to see that the Minister ana the government have made sense and come to their senses in that regard . I would ask him as well , given a move to the new provincial garage in the fall of this year, since all ma jor repairs will be done on Logan Avenue - is he going to retain only the gas pumps for a matter of convenience so that people in the core area will be able to gas their vehicl es ; and is he then also going to knock down the old garage and use that for surface parking? MR . ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , consideration is being given to the continued use of facilities like the gasoline pumps and perhaps some other minor service to facilit ate the vehicles that are being serviced out of the central core area . The question of the building itself is still very much a matter of open debate . There is some concern, of course , that the build ing itself is a pretty fine buildi ng and I think that there will be a great deal of just ification that will have to be made that will rationalize the dem oli tion of that building .

There has been some sug­ gestion made that at the time the building was built it was built to provide for addit ions , stories to be aaded to it. Preli minary studies have indicated that is not the case . But we will undertake to examine all options open to us with efficiency. MR . DOERN : Yes , efficiency sooner or lat er. Mr. Chairman , the other question I wanted to ask the Minister was : in my part of the city is a building that contains the Purchasing Bureau and some related supply and services depart­ ments, office repair , etc .

Now a lease was signed there , I guess five years ago or so , I don't know exactly the date , perhaps up to a seven-year lease , five years with some renewal s, etc. , rumour has it that the government intends to pull out of that build ing ana move the civil servants into the St . James area . Now I simply say to the Minister that what used to be called the Snowdon 's Building on Henderson Highway was rented at a very low rate , at a warehouse rate of - I can't remember the figures, $1 .5 0 a square foot or whatever - and then renovations were - 2413 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 put into it which again have to be amort ized over the period of the lease. My impression was that the people in the department were satisfied with the loca tion , that they enjoyed their new premises, that everybody else got used to it and instead of people coming here to throw their tenders into the Legislative Buildin g and add to increased traffic , that they could go to another place which was less trafficked and submit tenders.

I know that employees of the government in a number of instances, moved into the area , bought houses and rented apartmen ts, and the general impression was I think that build ing could be rented at a reasonable rate or a low rate and that the operation should be cobtinued. So I ask the Minister , does he intend to now terminate the lease and move to another part of town which is being rumoured? MR. ENNS : Ye s, Mr.

Chairman , the answer to the honourable member 's ques­ tion is that we do intend to terminate the lease and move into a consolidation of space that is currentl y available on Century Avenue where we have , as a result of some of the movements of space from the Department of Mines and Natural Resources ; pardon me , this is new space. MR. CHAIRM AN: 2. (b) - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, can the Minister provide the original figures , the original rental rates of that building and the amortized rates - as I say I don 't know what the figures are , they were $1. 50 and then I guess amort ized , I don 't know they might have been $4. 00, $5. 00 , or $6.00 a square foot - can he give us those two figures and then can he provide us with the new figures of the new rental space? MR . ENNS : Mr.

Chairman , in the build ing referred to by the Member for Elmwood , the annual rental rate ran at some $85 ,0 00 to which you have to add some $268, 000 worth of improvements for an amort ized cost , annual cost of $126 ,0 00 ; $650 ,2 00 to the government. MR. DOE RN : How many square feet? MR. ENNS : The square footage involved? In the neighbourhood of 19 , 000 or 20 , 000 square feet. MR. DOERN: So that 's about $6.00 a square foot. MR. ENNS : We have it in meters, Mr. Chairman. MR. DOERN : Do you have it in French? MR.

ENNS : The space that is being acquired is of similar cost , similar square footage , a somewhat less square footage for a cost of $1 25, 777 . The advantages accruing here are badly needed parking fa cilities which the honourable member will be well aware of is becoming a cost factor in all such buildin gs. Parking was virtually not available at the Snowdon Building and we have indica­ tions from our staff that they are more than happy with the planned move. MR. DOERN: Could the Minister give me the precise number of square feet that he is renting there? MR.

ENNS: The Snowdon Buildin g involved a total of 1, 92 8 square meters. MR. DOERN: I'd like it in feet , if possible. MR. ENNS : I' m sorry , I haven 't got it ; we 'r e in the metric age now , Mr. Chairman. MR. DOERN : Wel l, how many meters? MR. ENNS : I' m unlike Frank Johnston ; I don't balk at modernization. - 2414 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 MR . DOERN: Divide by ten ; 20 , 000 square feet. MR . ENNS : Multiply it by ten. MR . DOERN : All right , fine . MR . ENNS: And the space that we 'r e moving into is 1,3 93.5 4 square meters. MR . DOER N: Could I have the second figure again? MR . ENNS : 1,3 93 square meters .

I should also indicate to the honourable member that the rent that I quoted of $85 ,0 00 per annum was the rent that has been in effect for the last five years and we have been given every reason to belie ve that rent would have been considerably increased for the coming period of time or extension or any extension thereof. MR . DOERN: Mr. Chai rman , I convert to square feet with the assi stance of the Member for River Heights who's an engineer ,

whereas I'm an arts man and I'm not referr-'-ng to the Minister of Highways. I wo n't describe him , other than to say he 's from the south , from the deep south. Mr. Chairman , my figures , my cal­ culatio ns , are that you are paying about $6 a square foot . You can translate that into meters to understand that ; and in the case of the new space, you 'r e talking about roughly 14 , OOO square feet compared to roughly 20, OOO square feet . You ' re getting about a-third less space , so my impression is that

whereas you 'r e paying about $6 a square foot at Snowdon ' s, you ' re paying $9 a square foot in the new space. Now the Minister says they were going to raise the rent but they would have to raise the rent , I believe , on the base rate which wasn 't $6 - the base rate was $1 .5 0 or $2 .0 0. I' m simply saying to the Minister that he 's paying a lot more money for the new rental , the approximate difference between $6 and $9 .0 0 . Even if the rent went up it couldn 't have gone up more than 50 cents or $1 or so a square fo ot .

It couldn 't possibly have gone up $3 , because we ' re talking an amor tized rate . I assume that most of the rugs and most of the investment would still hold in that particular building . I also ask the Minister again how many years they 'v e been in the Snowdon ' s Building and whether there wasn 't a possible two-year extension available to the government? MR . ENNS : Mr. Chairman, we 'v e occupied the Snowdon Building since '7 4. The question of whether or not an extension was available or not available is not in question. We desired to move from that location for several reasons .

There were I'm advised fully a thousand feet plus of space that we coul dn 't utilize in the Snowdon Build ing. It was an old facility , we only had three parking places available to us for emplo yees ;

whereas the site on Empress Street is a new facility with unlimited or ample parking for full staff requirements. It is more central to the operations that the Government Services operates from their build­ ing on 1700 Portage which lease we extended , that is, the Federated Co-op Build­ ing. It was the judgement of the department that this facility was a needed improvement to the leas ing accommodation and provision of space for the department . MR . CHAIRM AN : 2. (d) ( 1) --pass ; 2. (d) (2 )- -p ass ; 2. (e) (2)- -pa ss; 2. (f) (l)- -p ass . The Member for Elmwood . 2. (e) (l)- -pass ; MR . DOERN : Mr .

Chairman , on the Security Services , I wonder if the Minister has any information for the committee in terms of any increases in the security complement of the government in terms of our security forces , the number of SMYs last year and this and , also , if he can explain some of those dollar figures of what we 'r e accessing from private security companies . Then if he might give us some breakdown of the various organizations that we 'r e using . MR. ENNS : Well, Mr. Chairman, in the first instance, we 'v e increased the SMYs in this appropriation from 36 SMYs to 40.

The increase involves 4 addit ional members resulting essentially for the opening of the new Provincial Judges Court. - 2415 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 It is planned that the staff will be utilized to improve the security for the whole Law Courts, Woodsworth Buildin g and Provincial Judges Court Building complex. Mr. Chairman , I can also provide some addit ional information to member of the committee giving you some idea of the various costs involved in terms of a con­ tract or in-house provision of security as compared to outside contracted security services . The ratio , in the first instance, has remained relatively constant.

In 1977- 78, for instance, the ratio between in-house and contract was 53 percent in-house as compared to 46 percent contracted out ; in 1978- 79 , it remains the same , 53 percent in-ho use , 47 percent contracted out ; in 1979- 80 , the year just passed , it was somewhat below that , 49 percent in-house as compared to 51 percent contracted out ; in the estimates before you , we have reversed that somewhat aga in, 53 .3 percent in-house as compared to 46.7 percent contracted out .

That gives the honourable members some indication that there has been littl e change in the con­ tracting out versus in-house security in this instance. MR . DOERN : Can the Minister give us some indication of which firms , which private firms, have the bulk of the business or how many there are and if he has any percentages or dol lar figures on the various firms which I assume tend to be Winnipeg based? MR . ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I can indicate to the honourable member and members of the committee that we have just awarded new tenders , new contrac ts for further security services for the coming period of time .

If the member is inter­ ested I can list them for the members of the committee .

At the Fort Osborne com­ plex , the present contractor was Barnes Security , the new contractor will be Can-We st Security ; at the Manitoba Archives Building , the present contractor was Metropolitan , the new contractor will be Can-West Security ; at Assiniboine Com­ munity College , the present contractor is Metropolitan , the new contractor will be Metropolitan ; at the Provincial Office Build ing in Brandon, the present contractor is Metropolitan , and the new contractor continues to be Metropolitan ; at Westre Industrial Mall , the present contractor is Metropolit an , the new contractor will continue to be Metropoli tan ; at the Highway Services ' Building , the past con­ tractor was Metropolitan , the new contractor will be Can-West Security ; at the Robert Fletcher Buildin g , the present contractor was Barnes Security , the new cuntractor will be Metropolitan ; at the Century Plaza site , the present o.r former contractor was Barnes Security , the new contractor will be Metropolitan ; at the Provincial Office Build ing , Portage la Prai rie , the present or past contractor was Metropolitan , the new contractor will be Can-west Security ; at the Provincial Office Building in Thompson, no change , Metropolitan continues the contract.

MR. CHAIRM AN: 2. (f ). The Member for Portage la Prairie . MR . LLOYD G. HYDE : I wonder if you could indicate as to how long that contract with Can-we st is for. MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman , the contracts are let for two years with a provi­ sion for a one-year extension if it 's deemed desirable to some extent . MR . HYDE : And when is that contract out? MR . ENNS : These contracts that I just read off came into effect April lst of this year. MR . HYDE : Of this year. I'm wondering , Mr . Minister, if you would con­ sider the possibility of local security for our Portage Provincial Buildin g . MR. ENNS ; Mr.

Chair� an , in answer to the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie that the contracts are open to tender to all who are capable of providing the service. I must indicate to the honourable member that in the area of care­ taking and janitorial cleaning work , the local entrepreneur seems to be more successful in acquiring these contracts. The business of providing security seems to have specialized to the degree of half a dozen firms that have developed a degree of expertise in this field and that seem to have the market more or less - 2416 -

Monday , 14 April 198 0 available to them . But there is nothing preventing any local contractor from meeting the requirements and then bidding on them. MR . HYDE : Thank you . MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Elmwoo d. MR . DOERN : Mr. Chairman , does the department utilize the Corps of Commis­ sionaires? MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman, that question allows me to also answer a question for the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie . We do use the Corps of Commis­ sionaires , the Legislative Building and the Law Courts at Edmonton and York , at 1075 Portage and at Red River Community College . MR . DOERN : Mr.

Chairman , I just wanted to make a general remark to the Minister . We 'r e now getting to finish this

section . I think there a number of questions on the Gimli Industrial Park and my colle ague for Churchill may have some comments there . I just want to suggest to the Minister that if we finish this

section I would prefer to adjo urn at 10 :0 0 and it would be my intention to attempt to finish the department tomorrow. I jus t mention that in passing ; that there will obviously be some debate tomorrow and there wi ll obviously be some sections where there 'l l be heavy debate like , maybe , on EMO . So I' m just saying to the Minister he can maybe think about that but that would be my recommenda tion to him that we finish 71 and then adj ourn and see whether we can clean this up tomorrow. That 's all the questions I have on (f ) , Mr . Chairman . MR .

CHAIRM AN: 2. ( f) ( 1) --p ass ; 2. ( f) (2)- -pa ss ; 2. (g) ( 1) . Churchill. The Member for MR . JAY COWAN : Thank you , Mr . Chairperson. What I would like to do first is ask the Minister if this would be the appropriate area to discuss the storage of hazardous products at Gimli, if that comes under his department? I' m not certain that it does, so I'd ask him if this would be the appropriate area in which to discuss that? MR . ENNS : Mr.

Chairman, I' m advised by my Deputy Minister that while we supply the physical facilit y and it 's on our site that the Department of Govern­ ment of Services is responsible for it but we have no authority or say-so in the management of the site , nor in the rules or regulations prescribing to how that material is stored there . MR . COWAN: I would ask the Minister then, Mr. Chairperson , if he can indicate who does .have authority in that regard as to how the materials are stored? MR . ENNS : The Environmental Management Branch , the Department of Corporate and Consumer Affairs .

Normal ly , it was with the Department of Mines and Natural Resources , but with the transfer it has been moved that way . MR . COWAN: Thank you . Could the Minister then indicate if the Department of the Environment is responsible also for examina tion of the physical storage containers and bunkers, whatever, at the Gimli site? MR . ENNS : Completely , Mr . Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN : 2. ( g)(l )- -p ass . The Member for Elmwo od . MR . DOERN : Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could give us - I'v e looked at the Annual Report .

I wonder if he could give us some general idea of which businesses or operations at the industrial park have clos ed over the past year - or pulled out perhaps would be a better word - and which new businesses or operations have gone into the park. - 2417 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 MR . ENNS : Mr. Chairman , I will ask my staff to look that up. MR. DOE RN: While that is being looked up , I want to admonish the Minister for one thing that he did n't do in the past year or two . I am not sure of the exact date because I see something about 1978 , but my impression is that last year at the Gimli Industrial Park , there was a major opening and event , namely that the CNR, which I believe is the anchor of that whole industrial park and the success story of that industriaL park , had a major opening .

I don't know if this was the completion of their ma jor building in which they have those simulato rs . I think all of us are happy with the devel opments there . It started as a small under­ taking with some buildin gs being utilize d by the CNR and it has now developed into a ma jor centre for the training of engineers and maybe firemen , and expenditures of millions of dollar s.

Some time in the past year, there was an official opening and much to the dismay , I think , of CNR officials and the people in Gimli, the Minister of Govern­ ment Services did not attend , nor did the MLA for Gimli , who is the Minister of Education . So I ask him why he didn 't appear at this important event to show the appreciation of the cit izens of Manitoba for the expenditure of the CNR and their location in this facility? MR . ENNS : Mr.

Chairman , I don 't like to place the responsibility and name particularly members of staff that from time to time are derelict in their duties , but my executive assi stant , Mr. James McEachern, who normally keeps good track of me , simply didn 't see that I got to that important affair on this occasion . I take that admonishment seriously and I will have a chat with Mr. McEachern . MR. DOERN : You are admonishing him ; I am admon ishing you and you are admon ishing him. Does that mean that I am admonishing him? MR .

ENNS: Just by way of general interest, though, the question that the honourable member asked earlier , I am advised that there has only been really the one firm that has ceased operation at Gimli , that is , the Modular Home pre-fab group that was there . Pretty well all the other operations are carrying on. We are looking forward , of course , with the active support of the Department of Economic Developm ent , to expand the industrial activity at Gimli. We have , in total , some 263 people in private employment . As well, we have some 68 government staff people involved there .

We have continued space available for future industrial expansion . I don 't know whether any firm will have the determination to build airplanes or helicopters there once again , but it seems that that site attracts those kinds of ventures and this government , not unlike the past govern­ ment , is prepared to examine any and everything that fli es. MR . DOE RN: Mr.

Chairman , the Minister will recall that last year I was admonishing him in his role in the flood fighting and that I mentioned that he had been taking so ma ny heli copters, become so attached to helicopters that I could almost visualize a two-p ropellered beanie spinning on his heaa , and similarly the First Minister . Now, after that , after loving those instruments of flig ht , and I can tell you that I personally detest helicopters . I took one helicopter ride in my lif e -- (I nterjection )- - I'm sure he did n't. The mere thought of that ride makes him throw up . Mr.

Chairman, I missed a first chance to fly in a helicopter in 1953 in Toronto and I regretted it , and I had my first flight in Manitoba , I guess , about four or five years ago and I regretted taking it . I went down the Red River in an army helicopter , couldn 1 t hear a thing , a deafening roar , uncomfortable trip . You couldn 't hear the person beside you if they were shouting in your ear at the top of their voice. So I don 't ever intend again to fly in a helicopter if I can help it . I just mention in passing that the government is talkin g about bringing in a German firm to build helicopters in Manitoba .

I have an ominous and uneasy feeling here , similar to the Saunders operation , that given the terms, as I read them in the pap er , and I only know what I read in the paper , that it sounds like another Saunders deve lopme nt , namely that they will come in providing the govern­ ment puts in some money and then puts in some more money and then puts in some more money . - 2418 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 I just wondered whether the Minister , given his responsibility for the indus­ trial park and assuming that his government undertakes this enterprise , which I encourage them to do so that it may hasten their downfall , I ask him whether he has a building or buildings that are being considered in the event that this deal goes through? MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman , there is vacant space available for precisely that kind of an enterprise. I suppose , to some extent , that that 's what attracts the enquiries from time to time from firms such as the one the honourable member describes.

Let me assure the honourable member that the Department of Government Services is primarily concerned with recovering adequate revenues to offset our costs As the landlords of the site, I indicate to the members of the committee that modest increase of rents is due and will be taking effect this year, not of the nature that would cause , we believe , any difficulties for the firms operating out of the site , but will come more closely to reflecting the costs that the taxpayers of Manitoba generally pay for the maintenance and the operation of the site through the Department of Government Services. Mr.

Chairman , I can't help but pass , as a matter of historic note , to inform the honourable members of the committee that sometime early this morning , the crest of the Red River passed through the City of Winnipeg. It is well on its way to Selkirk. So I can assure the Honourable Member for Elmwood that there will be no helicopter rides in the near future to view the rivers and streams of the pro­ vince of Manitoba this year. MR. CHAIRM AN : The Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN : Thank you , Mr. Chairperson.

Well, my leader is probably one of the more enthusiastic about that last announcement , having lived through the experience and the terror last year. I would ju st ask the Minister one last question , or I believe it will be one last question, in regard to the storage of hazardous chemicals, and that would be to ask him who is responsible for the upkeep of the storage faciliti es them­ selves? In other wor ds, the actual physical upkeep , is that done by his depart­ ment or is that als o done by the Department of the Environment? MR. ENNS : Mr.

Chairman , while the building remains technically under the control of the Department of Government Services, I am advised that the building itself, which consists of a storage tank , is under the complete control of the Department of the Enviro nment. MR. COWAN : Thank you , Mr. Chairperson. I just want to thank the Minister for that information. We will intend to pursue that debate under the appropriate department. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for Logan. MR WILLIAM JENKINS : Mr. Chairman, the Minister raised an interesting topic here. He said that they try to recover the costs.

Is the department still leas­ ing some of the agricultura lands in between the runways that were leased , I believe , to local farmers? MR. ENNS : Yes , Mr. Chairman , that practice is still continuing. We have just renewed the leases of that land. I can , for the information of the honour­ able members , indicate to them who the successful tenderers were. On an annual cash payment bas is, the following tenders were acceptea : Mr. Joe Cherniak of Gimli for some $12 ,6 00 ; McConnell Seed Farm of Petersfield , who was the unsuccess­ ful bidder of $12 ,0 70 .0 0. So there was active bidd ing.

Five persons bid for the land in question. A Mr. Cherniak, a great agriculturalist of this province, is fai:-ming that land. Mrl. JENKINS : I thank the Minister for that information. I understand from his answer that there is only the one successful tenderer? - 2419 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 MR . ENNS : Yes, it 's the one parcel. MR . JENKINS : One parcel of land . When the Member for River Heights, not the present member but the former member , the former leader of the opposition, was Minister of Government Services, I believe in the early part of the Progressive Conservative government , I asked him a question at one time with regard to the runways because there were some rumours that were circulating around the area that the present government was ant icipating tearing up some of the runways that are there at the facilit y .

I ju st want reassurance that that has not come up for reconsideration at this time . MR . ENNS : Mr. Chairman , that is not under consideration. MR . JENKINS : Another thing , Mr. Chairman . I have been out to the indus­ trial park on several occasions and I realize that there are private enterprises in the facili ty , renting from the government , but at the gate , when you go in there and if you want some information , there is usually no one around there that you can get information from . So you wind up driving around the industrial site looking for the facility that you want to do business with.

Are there no people there to give information at the facili ty , because I know there is a gatehouse there , or what I guess used to be the guardhouse . I know I have been there on various occasions and I see someone there but I don 't know they are and they tell me to go to such and such a place and I find out that I'm in the wrong place altogether . There seems to be no concrete information when you make an enquiry where you want to make a contact with somebody out there . Is there any staff , or is that not a func tion of the department , to provide sort of an information service where people • ? MR .

ENNS : Mr. Chairman , the staff has heard the problem tha the Honourable Member for Logan describes and it could well be that we should address ourselves to some better signing . I am advised there is , among the first buildi ngs as you come in the gate , a Government Services building there where Government Services staff who are operating the complex are housed , and who do give direction. Perhaps it is a question of some appropriate signing that more easily directs visitors or people visiti ng the site to that buildin g.

The site is no longer an air base as such and requires that kind of 24-hour or even daytime service that one is accustomed to when one comes onto , say a milit ary complex . The department has sufficient problems in trying to maintain the build­ ings at reasonable costs so that attractive rents can be made available to encourage industrial location at that site .

I don't think , I don 't read into the member 's questioning that he is necessarily suggesting that a duty officer or somebody has to be on staff there on a permanent basis , but I accept the good advice that perhaps a little bit of attention to some information signing which directs visitors to the appropriate office or the oppropriate building that this information would be availa ble , or perhaps even an informational board that would indicate the location of the different businesses on site. I accept that as con­ structive criticism from the Honourable Member for Logan and , Mr .

Chairman , I will ask staff to take that into considerat ion . MR. JENKINS : Well, that 's fine , that 's primarily what I was suggesting to the Minister , that a large bulleti n or a large placard or something go up there, so you go down such and such a road to such and such a build ing , because otherwise you can drive around that site ; I mean , I wound up out on the airstrip one time lookin g for something .

And then , lo and behold , somebody was coming down with a small airplane and that 's not a very pleasant feeling either , I can assure the Minister. --( Interjec tion)- - No , I wasn 't playing chicken with him but that was just the information that I had received from I don't know who . --( Inter­ jecti on) -- Maybe somebody was out to get me ; I don't know. MR . CHAIRM AN : 2. (g) (l)- -pass ; 2. (g) (2)- -p ass.

Be it resolved that there be grant-ed to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $25 ,5 28,1 00 for Government Services , Fiel d Services--pass. The Member for Elm wood . - 242 0 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 MR. DOERN : Mr. Chairman , I think in view of the progress that we 'v e made , I wonder if the Minister would agree that we could have the committee rise and continue our del iberations tomorrow. tion. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I'm more than prepared to accept that recommenda- MR. CHAIR MAN : Committee rise. All in favour? Committee rise. SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES DEPUTY CHAIRM AN , Mr. Robert Anderson (S pringfield) : The committee will come to order. I would call member 's attention to Resolution 108 Wildlif e (b) (

l) Salari es, (1) --pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM : Mr. Chairman , I believe there were some issues being raised by my col le ague the Member for St. George , who is just arriving , and per­ haps he could follow up on those before we pass this item. DEPUTY CHAIRM AN: The Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI : Thank you , Mr. Chairman.

When we broke for Private Members Hour I had asked the Minister what the breakdown was of the amount of funds between the 100 percent compensation that was paid to farmers for losses as a result of waterfowl damage in the Oak Hammock and the area around Lake Winnipeg , the Lake Frances area. He came over to this side after we broke and indicated that the amount of compensation , $285 ,0 00 , included that amount.

I'd like the Minister to give us that breakdown , and I also asked him whether or not Ottawa was contributing to that full amount up to their share of the standard formula of, I think $50 an acres , that is presently being paid. DEPUTY CHAIRM AN : The Honourable Minister. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (S ouris-Killarn ey) : Mr. Chairman , the compensation pay­ ments - there were four cl aims at Marshy Point for $5 , 672 and the amount cost­ -sharable was $3 , 168 . 00 At Oak Hammock there were 17 cla ims , an amount of $17 ,1 17 , cost- sharable on $12 ,6 21 .0 0.

In the remainder of the province there were 256 claims , an amount of $238, 92 4 , and cost-shar able , of course , the entire $238 ,9 24 .0 0. The difference , I belie ve , Mr. Chairman , in the figure I gave ear­ lier, was for dama ge , for prevention • MR. URUSKI : Mr. Chairman , just as a matter of interest , could the Minister indicate whether he has a regional breakdown of those claims of where the majo r portion of the damages do occur in the province? Is there a regional breakdown as to does one region fare far worse than other regions of the province in terms of waterfowl damage of that claim?

We know that both the Oak Hammock and Marshy Point are within the Interlake , but their total is not that great a portion of the total amount that is paid. Or is it fairly well spread out throughout the entire province? MR. RANSOM: It can vary a lot , Mr. Chairman , with the season, of course , but one of the major areas , I understand , was the area at The Pas. MR. URUSKI : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman , I would like to , on another matter , raise and enquire of the Minister : There was a moose hunting sea­ son al lowed on Hecla Isl and Provincial Park , and there were concerns raised with me by numerous residents of the vil lage of Riverton concerning the hunt on Hecla. There were statements made and concerns raised that it might be possible to , rath­ er than hunt the moose on the park, to have them removed by chasing or by some means , rather than hunt them in the provincial park. Mr.

Chairman , what I would like to know is whether or not the population is still increasing ; whether there are intentions of another hunt ; whether there is a - 2421 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 count of how many animals were taken , and what has been the experience of the de­ partment with respect to this hunt? There were local concerns raised about the moose; it has taken years to build up the herd and if there were probl ems of too many on the island , that maybe some alternate means could have been used to move them away from the park . don't have the figures in front of me in terms that has been held there has , I believe , been The only comments that have come to my office MR . RAN SOM : Mr.

Chairman , I of the popul ations , but the season considered as quite satisfactory . have been congratulatory types of perience they had , and such. comments from the hunter saying what a good ex- There may be those who object to the concept of hunting in a park , as I men­ tioned previously , especially those who tend to associate a provincial park with a federal park. Our poli cy is not to treat the park that way. As long as we can mee t the other requirements of the park , then the hunt can proceed .

If we found that there were some other recreational uses that could not be met because hunting was taking pla ce , then I think there would be some greater reason to look for other means of trying to control it. But at the moment , this seems to me to be the best of the al ternatives . It certainly is the least costl y method to the province. It provides extensive recreation and , to my knowledge , it has not con­ flicted substantially with other uses of the park . MR . URUSKI : Mr. Chairman , there is no doubt the time of the year normally would not confl ict with people 's use of the park .

Howe ver , I would like to know whether there is an intention , and how does the determination made to hold another hunt ; whether or not a determination is being made to hold another hunt on Recla ; whether it will be , for example , through firearms or whether it will be as it is in some other areas a bow hunt , an archery hunt ; or what criteria is the depart­ ment using in ter ms of ascertaining whether or not a hunt should be held .

Is it strictl y the numbers of the animals, and whether or not they may be causing havoc to the habitat and over-popul ation , making it a problem for those animals to sur­ vive because of over-abundance of anima ls. What are the criteria that they are using? Was there an over-abundance of animals on Recla at the time that the sea­ son was called for? What this the prime reason for having that? MR . RANSON : I think it is a question of attempting to balance the popula­ tion with the habitat that is avai la ble .

There is a certain amount of ju dgement , of course , involved in saying at what point it is balanced or what point it is threatening to be out of balan ce. I think that when the season was first held that there was concern that the population was becoming excessive and that it would begin to suffer , so a season was impleme nted . I haven 't had a firm recommendation come forward yet , but it is my understand­ ing that there will be a recommendat ion for a further season , probably of a simi­ lar nature that we have had before .

I think there were 150 firearm lice nces last year and they took 36 moo·se and there were 150 archery licences and they took 3, so there were 39 moose taken out of that area . As I say I don't have the actual figures on what the estimated population is to be , but they have done some aerial surveys there and will do some examination of the range and make a recommenda tion that they think will keep them in balance with that and still have a pretty high population in terms of the tourist to have a good chance to see a moo se when they are in the park . MR . URUSKI : Mr.

Chairman , the Minister indicated that there 150 each of both firearm and archery licences issued . Will that lim it , and I gather that must have been the limit set by the departm ent, in terms of not having too many hunters at any one time , will that kind of a limit be one of the guiding factors for the future, and will there be possibly the season split into two parts so that there are not too many hunters on that island at any one time . Is that part of the con­ siderations that will be undertaken? MR .

RANSOM: Yes , there are likely to be limitations to try and keep down the density of hunters , partly for safety reasons and partly for the quality of the recreational experience that the hunters get. I think that the levels that - 2422 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 we 'v e had there in the past have been satisfactory and we don't see any reason to move too far from that kind of procedure . MR . DEPUTY CHAIRM AN : (1) --pa ss ; (2) --pa ss; (3) --p ass ; (b) --pa ss. (

c) Planning and Alloc ation , ( 1) Salaries--p ass ; (2)- -pa ss ; (c )- -p ass. (

d) Habitat Management,

(1) Salaries - the Member for St . George . MR. URUS KI : Thank you , Mr . Chairman . Could the Minister indicate whether in this portion of the estimates there is going to be any further work done in the wildlif e management areas in terms of increasing the habitat for primarily , I'm sure , for either elk or deer throughout the management areas? Specifically I am referring to those within the Interlake area , of which there are a number. Is there a program of works with respect to the habitat managem ent , or what is en­ tailed in this area? MR. RANSOM: I am advised , Mr.

Chairman , that there is a very modest pro­ gram of habitat improvement . These areas are quite large , as the honourable mem­ ber is aware , and management programs to improve the quality of that habitat are likely to be fairly expensive if they are going to have a significant impact over a large area . Often ju st the fact of securing the land and the cover that is there already and preserving it , that is the ma jor action , really , in most of our wildlife management areas .

They will be there in the future if the time comes when more intensive management efforts are necessary and the funds are available for those kinds of efforts. MR . URUSKI : Mr. Chairman , that brings up my further comments that I wish to make. We know that from time to time there seems to be , at lea st , opposing views between the agriculture sector and the resources sector with respect to land utili zation and how land can best be utili zed to service both requirements, those of the farming community and that of the wildlife popul ation , namely deer or elk .

There seems to be continually , especially in some areas , a conflict between the resource management people of indicating , well , we have this land in a wildlife management area and that is strictl y for the use as habitat for the deer , and we have the contention of the farming population , who indicate th at , look the deer like and prefer the same kind of food as our animals do , they like the alfalfa , they li ke timothy hay and all these kind of grasses , can there not be a compatible use for both , and continually pressuring the department to release some of these land s.

I believe that the government should from time to time consider at least a use , on a limited basis . For example , I know where the department has , through various programs , purchased farmland which was marginal land and have maintained the fields that were in hay for pasture for the deer populations and the elk popula­ tions .

I see no reason that the government could not allow certain areas of the province where there may be just strictl y natural habitat , bush cover , that strip clearing could be undertaken , grass seeded to it , and the farmers be allow ed , not to graze that land , alth ough of course there are pressures to move into those areas for grazing purp oses, but to allow the farming community to develop in a managed way , in consultation and direction with the government , to develop these lands and allow the farmers to utilize these lands for the making of hay , for in­ creasing hay production , which of course would give wildlife the benefit of having the grasses that the farmers would put in , for better utiliz ation of the forests that are there.

We know that some of the marginal areas , or the areas that are covered fairly densely in bush, while they may be a good refuge for animals in terms of inclement weather , their carrying capacity may not be that great . I wonder whether this kind of co-operation is not feasi ble .

I know there prob­ ably are differing views between biologists and the people from agriculture as to whether or not this can be done , but certainly I would hope that even some pilot projects could be undertaken and have the farmers undertake the development , under the direction of either your department or the Department of Agriculture , and see how it works out . I know that there has been great reticence by the department to allow any move in this area . At lea st that has been my impression. If I am not right , I would - 2423 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 like the Minister to indicate that , "No, we have been trying this ," and let us know how they have made out , what the success has been , or lack of it. MR. RANSOM: It has been to some extent tried , Mr. Chairman , and is being tried . The re is a considerable amount of haying takes place in wildlife manage­ ment areas . I think what has to be kept in mind , that the primary purpose that the wil dlif e management areas will be put to is the production of wildlife .

That doesn 't mean that there can't be room for some other uses as well , but the fear often is on the part of the managers that once a given type of use is permitted , that there is then pressure for expansion of it and that it may well erode the primary purpose that the wildlife management area has established . I know that is the fear that the managers have . As the member for St . George points out , graz­ ing , of course , does tend to be in most cases rather detrimental to wildlife pro­ duction.

In principal , without making reference to any given wildlife management area , I think that is the sort of man agement effort that has to be examined , each case on its own meri ts. MR . URUSKI : I would like to suggest to the Minister and to his officials that from time to time , I know I have had requests and primarily , I think , the management area as the area primarily east and north of the community of Ashern , and there have been from time to time requests . It is a fairly extensive area that is a wildlif e management area , and some experimentation , I think , should be allowed .

There is no doubt that possibly it may arise - there have been conflicts - from personalities involved on both sides of the issue , from the farming com­ munity and from the department , but I think that the Minister should have his staff undertake , and at least discuss with the farming community in there , some alternatives to at least try out some of the are as , in the management area that I am speaking about .

Certainly , as I'v e mentioned , there likely will be continued pressure and there will always be pressure from one side or another , but I believe that experimentation should continually take place in this vein while not allo w­ ing , as the Minister has mentioned and I'v e mentioned , grazing to take place but good hay production undertaken which, of course , can only encourage better habitat for the deer population of that portion of the Interla ke. DEPUTY CHAIR MAN : (1) --pass - the Member for Ste . Rose. MR . A.

R. (P ete) ADAM : I wonder if the Minister could tell us , as a point of clarification if habitat management includes other wildlife , other than big game . Does this apply to muskrats and ••• ? MR. RANSOM: It would apply to other game as wel l. MR . ADAM : I' m just wondering if the Minister has any more information at the present time than he ·had some time ago, when I believe we asked him about a Grass River developm ent , and I am wondering if he could tell us what plans are in the offing for whatever is to be done in Grassy Marsh.

Also while I am standing , there 's no use me sitting down and standing up , other areas that I want to talk about is that I talked to a number of trappers in my area and they 'r e quite concerned . Well of course , the Grassy Marsh , I understand , there 's hardiy any muskrats left in that area , if any at all . I'm told that it 's pretty well cleaned out . We'd li ke to know just what the intentions are there .

I know that I'v e received a lot of complaints from trappers in my area that trapping regul ations are leading to depletion or over-trapping of the fur resource and I know that some of my lands in the Turtle River area , Turtle River Marsh, where it was a very prolific area for muskra ts , there 's hardly any muskrats left there .

I know that I have four quarters where there are usually a number of musk­ rats in the area and I allow some trappers to go in ; I allow people to go in who I hope , and of course , I expect them to manage the area in a responsible way so as not to deplete the resource for future years . So I restrict the number of people who go in there to trap. However , it is very dif ficult to patrol and see who goes in there . There 's other people who probably go in without permission , it 's pretty - 2424 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 hard to keep people out . I usually allow one trapper to go in because he 's a re­ sponsible person and he makes sure that he doesn 't trap out all the muskrats that are there . But, unfortunately , there are others come and they open up the houses and the houses freeze over , and the rest of them die. They freeze in or something. So I'm ju st wondering , in fact , I have received a number of letters and I think I could probably , if I wanted to , get a petition from most of the trappers in re­ gard to this problem.

I know that in my area a few years ago they thought that there was sufficient water and that they should be trapped out in the fall , in the winter , because they thought they would be freezing out . Well, they did allow that and I was opposed to it , because I didn 't think it was the proper way to handle it . But it went ahead anyway and they just about cl eaned everything out . We didn 't see any more muskrats after that for a number of years. They did come back, I believe last year there was a number coming back but it 's now going down agai n, so I don 't know what the reason is for it .

I wonder , maybe , if the Minis­ ter can enlighten us on two points : the Grassy Marsh, what 's happening there , because I understand there is no muskrats left there at all and , also , what other management is being undertaken to see if we can't improve the muskrat population? Incidenta lly , a good pelt is about $8 this year I understand . So there 's an awful lot of trappers going out ; everybody 's trapping them now because they are a high pri ce. I'm not sure whether that 's a good thing or whether there should be some restrictions there or not, I don't know. MR .

RANSOM: We had a fairly complete discussion on the Big Grass and Whitemud River earlier in the estimates review and I really have nothin g further to report . There is no reco mmenda tion or set of recommendations yet agreed to for the management of that area . I think that the honourable member probably raises the most significant factor when he talks about prices . It certainly generates the demand and it puts some pressure on and may , in fact , result in depletion of populations for a time .

But it 's hard to judge whether that 's bad or not because historically the prices have not held up for long periods of time and efforts that have been made to try and conserve the resource have , in fact , simply led to wast­ age of the resource. Muskrats are extremely prolific in ter ms of increasing their numbers when the conditions are right . We' re not unmindful of the problems that he points out .

We undertook to es­ tablish a special trapping area this year at the Oak and Plum Lakes area where there's been a rather excessive pressure and competition among individuals who are trapping that area and so we set up a special kind of management scheme there that provided for a little more control over it , a little more order among those who are undertaking the trapping . But other than that I don't think it 's fair to say have undertaken any management of muskrats.

The honourable member may have been here earlier when I referred to the agreement that we are in the process of sign­ ing the Ducks Unlimited in the Summerberry . That 's a further example of a rather extensive project there that 's been undertake n. MR . DEPUTY CHAIRM AN : The Member for St . George . MR . URUSKI : Mr. Chairman , I wanted to raise another aspect of Habitat and Management and that deals with fishing habitat .

I want to indicate to the Minis­ ter I'v e been approached by the Chief and Band Council at the Little Saskatchewan Indian Reserve which is near the community of Gypsumville concerning whether or not a permit could be issued to the band or members of the band to take out rough fish, namely mullets and possibly some jackfish during the spring run in the Bas­ ket Creek area . I think the river is called the Proulx River , P-r-o-u-1-x I be­ lieve , I think the river is called. They indicate that is a good run for the spring mullets .

They have not been able to fish that in the past , whether in terms of taking out some of this fish might not improve the habitat area for the commercial species that would be bounding in the Lake Manitoba area ; whether or not these kinds of permits have been issued from time-to-t ime and whether the Min­ ister would give consideration to such requests. Has he had such requests in the past, or his department , from individuals and/or reserve councils and whether or not this kind of request would be considered by the department? - 2425 -

Monday , 14 April 198 0 MR . RANSOM: That not being an item that really falls under Wildl ife Habi­ tat Management , Mr . Chairman . I'm just answering on the basis of the knowledge I have myself of the ma tter. It hasn 't been brought to my attention in the appl ica­ tion of that nature but , certainly , if there is an application made to our Fisher­ ies Branch, then we will have a careful look at it and try and judge it on its merit s. MR . DEPUTY CHAIRM AN : ( 1 )- -pass ; ( 2 )- -pass ; ( d )- -pass ; (

e) Biological Ser­ vices : ( 1) Sal aries--pass ; ( 2 ) --pass ; ( 3 )- -pass ; ( e ) --pass ; (

f) Regional Manage­ ment :

(1) Salaries--p ass ; (2) --pa ss; (f ) --pass ; (

g) Canada-M anitoba Northlands Agreement - Community Wildli fe Management :

(1) Salaries--pas s. The Member for St . George . MR. URUSKI : Thank you , Mr . Chairman. Could the Minister indicate the ex­ tent of this program , what area it involves and whether there are any changes in the progam , what is the extent of that agreement on Community Wildlif e Manage . what area of the province does it encompass? MR .

RA NSOM : This is primarily the item that I have referred to earlier on the kaminuriak caribou herd but some of this money likely goes into the management of the Churchill wild life management area that we were referring to previously , a bit of work with Woodland caribou and some of the guide training falls in this area and some of the polar bear damage control , but the kaminuriak caribou herd is the major item. MR . DEPUTY CHAIRM AN : Fur Agreement :

(1) Sala ries . (1) --p ass ; (2)- -pass ; (3)- -pa ss; (g) --p ass ; (

h) Wild The Member for Rupertsland. MR . BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman , it seems like there 's a fairly substantial change in this program from last year . I wonder if the Minister could indicate what change he 's proposing in the new fiscal year . MR . RANSOM : This program was nearing the end of the period that was origi­ nally planned for and I believe that it was extended for one year beyond that time .

So there is some evalu at ion taking pla ce, of course , but also some cutback in the amount of money that 's been involved because the major factor that has come into play over the past few years is the tremendous increase in pri ce . So that many of the impediments to a greater fur harvest that this agreement was original­ ly was intended to deal with have been , not elimin ated , but certainly their sig­ nificance greatly lessened by the increase in fur prices that have been experi­ enced .

We are expecting this year , for instance, that there will be a record $10 mil­ lion worth of wild fur harvested this year in the province and that would be over $2 million more than was ·harvested last year and it would be four times as much as was taken in 1974- 75. So one can readily see that the impacted prices have gone beyond anything I would believ e that the agreement would have brought about .

Just a bit of information on pri ces, for instance , this was some information as of · February where the beaver prices , the average prices in February was $48 , that 's up 40 percent over last year ; and the average price for mink was $58 , that 's up 130 percent over last year . The muskrat prices were holdin g about steady . The longer fur, the fox fur, was down about 30 percent but it was still , cross fox was $90 ; silver fox was $115 ; squirrels were even bringing $2 .8 0, which is up 20 per­ cent over last year ; and lynx were down 20 percent but still were bringing $285 on the average .

So that 's the biggest item in terms of impact in terms of fur har­ vesting . MR . BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, the Minister reminds me of the market news that 's on CBC . If he ever loses his position as Minister , he 'l l have a ready oc­ cupation there for himself. The increase in prices of fur has certainly been wel­ come to the trappers in Manitoba . I wonder if the Minister could indicate for the information of the committee what , if any , increase the department has found sta­ tistically in the number of trappers since the onset of this particular agree­ ment .

Have the numbers of trappers increased over that period? - 2426 -

Monday , 14 April 1980 MR . RANSOM : I can give a bit of information , Mr . Chairman. In 1978- 79 , there were 13, OOO licences issued ; 3, OOO of these were on registered trap lines and 10 ,0 00 were in the - what 's called the open area , mainly the southern part of the province . Now I believe that in the past year that we 'r e still dealing with approximately 13,0 00 trappers. I don't think that the numbers of trappers have increased very much but the production , particularly in the north , has increased substantially .

Trad itionally the open area has out-produced the registered trap line area by about a margin of 3 to 2 and in the past couple of years this has been reversed and again , some of that certainly could be attributable to the Wild Fur Agreement but again , I would guess that price is the major factor . But it is encouraging to see that the production in the north has risen substantial ly . MR . BOSTROM : To follow up that line of questioning , Mr.

Chairman , I would like to ask the Minister if he has changed the policy respecting the licensing of trappers or just to refresh our memory , could he perhaps outline what the existing policy is and how it has changed , if any , from the previous policy , and if he is contemplating or proposing any changes to the licensing policy regarding trappers. MR . RANSOM: There have been no changes made , Mr. Chairman , in the method of issuing or allocating trapping licences .

We had been examining some alterna­ tives , but with this increase in prices that 's taken place in the last couple of years it has brought about most of the things that fur managers wanted to see hap­ pen - increased production in the north - and I would guess that as long as prices are high and things are going smoothly , that it would be unlikely that we would be making any major changes, but we 'l l be examing that as we go along . MR . BOSTROM : Mr .

Chairman, I assume that the existing system that was in effect when we were in government then is continuing , and I believe that according to that system if a trapper did , or a person did apply for a registered trap line in a particular di strict , he would be panelled by a local fur council before re­ ceiving a licen ce . That is, if there was one opening and several applications that the applicatio ns would be panelled by a local fur council and that is how the decision would be made, or at least how the recommendation would be made to the government , who would then make the decision. I wonder if the M