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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

4th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Wednesday, April 30, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Volume 14, Number 12 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 4TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council................................................................................. .........................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations.............................................................................. ..................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ....................................................................................... ..................................Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................. ...........................................Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries.................................................................................... ..............................Hon.

John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations.............................................................. .................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development.................................................................................... ..............................Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development.............................................................................. .................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services......................................................................... .................. Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter........................................................................................ .................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality ......................................................................................... .................................... Hon.

Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ............................................................................................. ............................................ Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines................................................................................................... ....................................... Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance ............................................................................................................ ....................................................... Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests ............................................................................................................ .................................................. Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .................................................................................................... ............................................ Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.................................................................................................... ................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health ............................................................................................ ...................................Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................. Hon.

Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................... ............................................Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Management Services................................................................................................ .........................................Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue................................................................................................. ................................................Hon.

Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour...................................................................................... .............................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management.................................................................................... ..................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..................................................................................................... .................................................... Hon. Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection..................................................................................... ....................................Hon. Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................. ..............................................................

John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ....................................................................................................... ...........................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ........................................................................................... .............................................. Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .............................................................................................. .........................................E.

George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ................................................................................................................ ................................................................... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .................................................................................................. ........................................................ Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees........................................................................................ ............................................Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk................................................................................................ ............................................ Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms ............................................................................................................... .........................................................A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................... ........................................

Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian.......................................................................................................... ............................................................. Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ........................................................................................................ .................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca/hansard In addition to printed transcripts, Hansard Services publishes transcripts on the Internet and broadcasts Chamber debates on television.

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ....................................................................... Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L) .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)............................................. Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L).........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L).................................................................................

North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................... East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................. Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).................................................................................. Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).........................................Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L)......................................................................Victoria–Beacon H ill Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...............................................................

Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L) ............................................................................Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)................................................ Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ..........................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L)................................................................ Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) .............................................................

Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ........................................................................... Yale-L illooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ..................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ............................................................................. Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ........................................ Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) .............................................. Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon.

Gary (L).........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)....................................... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................... Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................... Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ..................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .....................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L)......................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L) ............................................................ Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L).......................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L) ........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ...................................................................................Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)...................................................... North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)............................................................ Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L).............................................................. Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L).................................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...............................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).......................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L) .......................................................................... Ch illiwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ...........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) ...................................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ..........................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) .............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ...................................................................................Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L) ........................................................... New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) .......................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L)..................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon.

Richard (L)...................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L)...................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L) ...............................................................Burnaby-W illingdon Orr, Sheila (L) ...........................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)....................................................................... Ch illiwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ......................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon.

Judith (L)............................................................Nanaimo-Parksv ille Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ................................................................ Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)..........................................................................Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).....................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)..............................................West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon.

Lynn (L) ........................................................................ Langley Stewart, Ken (L)...................................................... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L) ...................................................... Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L) ................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L)....................................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L) ..........................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon. John (L) ................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L).................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).........................................................Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon.

Katherine (L) ...................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)........................................................................... Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ..............................................Hon.

Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum.......................................................................G illian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ..............................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North..............................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon......................................................................

John Nuraney Burquitlam ........................................................................................ Harry Bloy Cariboo North ..................................................................................John Wilson Cariboo South .................................................................................... Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ............................................................................. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas .................................................................................

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .......................................................................... Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville .............................................................Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Delta North.......................................................................................... Reni Masi Delta South................................................................................

Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .................................................................................. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin...................................................................Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ....................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ........................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country...............................................................

John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ................................................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley ............................................................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca .....................................................................Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................... Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows .............................................................Ken Stewart Nanaimo..........................................................................................

Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville ...................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston.......................................................................Blair F. Suffredine New Westminster ..................................................................Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast ........................................................................................Bill Belsey North Island........................................................................................Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale.......................................... Hon.

Katherine Wh ittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head .......................................................................Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .................................................................... Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside.................................................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North .............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South .......................................................................

Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley ....................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................... Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood......................................................... Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast.......................................................... Harold Long Prince George North................................................................................Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................Hon.

Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre......................................................... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East .......................................................................... Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ................................................................ Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands ............................................... Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................

Susan Brice Shuswap .............................................................................. Hon. George Abbott Skeena.............................................................................................Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................. Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ............................................................................... Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................. Hon.

Gulzar S. Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .......................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ...................................................................... Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock ...............................................................Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview............................................................... Hon.

Gary Co llins Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................................Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings .......................................................................Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington...................................................................Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara....................................................................Val J.

Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena............................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill.............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.................................................................................. Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary.................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ..............................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .................................................................................. Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Wednesday, April 30, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members....................................................................................................... ............................................... 6349 Tributes....................................................................................................................... ............................................................... 6349 Clem Chapple Hon. G. Campbell J.

MacPhail Introduction and First Reading of Bills ........................................................................................ ......................................... 6350 Industry Training Authority Act (Bill 34) Hon. S. Bond Personal Information Protection Act (Bill 38) Hon. S. Santori Statements (Standing Order 25B).............................................................................................................................. .............. 6351 Women's hockey championship D. Hayer University of Victoria I. Chong National Volunteer Week H.

Bloy Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 6352 Fair Pharmacare registration J. MacPhail Hon. C. Hansen Infant mortality rate S. Orr Hon. S. Hawkins Barkerville historic site J. Wilson Hon. G. Abbott Long-term care beds in Powell River area H. Long Hon. K. Whittred Fair Pharmacare registration J.

MacPhail Reports from Committees ........................................................................................................ ............................................... 6355 Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills Petitions ...................................................................................................................... ............................................................... 6355 J. MacPhail

Motions on Notice.............................................................................................................. ...................................................... 6355 Citizens Assembly on Electoral Reform (Motion 99) Hon. G. Campbell J. MacPhail P. Nettleton Hon. G. Plant J. Bray Hon. G. Halsey-Brandt M. Hunter P. Bell B. Suffredine B. Bennett Hon. M. de Jong R. Sultan G. Trumper Hon. G. Cheema Appointment of Special Committee on Citizens Assembly on Electoral Reform (Motion 100) Hon. G.

Plant Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 6374 Estimates: Ministry of Attorney General and Ministry Responsible for Treaty Negotiations (continued) T. Christensen Hon. G. Plant R. Lee J.

MacPhail Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 6395 Estimates: Ministry of Advanced Education (continued) Hon. S. Bond J. MacPhail L. Mayencourt J. Les S. Brice

6349 WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 The House met at 2:03 p.m. Prayers. Introductions by Members Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, it was my distinct pleasure today to meet with the Order of British Co- lumbia Advisory Council membership. We had a very wonderful meeting today and a lunch and came to some marvellous conclusions. I would like to introduce the members: the chair- man of the committee, the Hon. Lance S.G. Finch, Chief Justice of British Columbia; Dr. David H. Turpin, president and vice-chancellor of the University of Vic- toria; Ms. Patricia Wallace, president, Union of B.C.

Municipalities, and a councillor from the great city of Kamloops; Andrew Wilkinson, deputy minister, inter- governmental relations secretariat; Patsy George, Or- der of B.C.; and Gian Singh Sandhu, Order of B.C. Would the House please make them welcome. [1405] Hon. G. Campbell: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that one of the things you agreed with during your discussions at lunch was that there's an awful lot of exceptional British Columbians out there who you're all going to have to file through. I want to say thank you to both the Speaker and the members of the advisory council for the work they're doing.

Tributes CLEM CHAPPLE Hon. G. Campbell: It's with regret that I inform the House today of the passing of Clem Chapple. I first met Clem back in the early seventies when I was work- ing as executive assistant for the mayor of Vancouver and he was at work in the media. In the sixties he started off with the Victoria Times as a reporter, but he really spent the vast majority of his time and his work- ing life as a reporter for BCTV, and he was, indeed, the Victoria bureau chief from 1981 to 1984. Clem was struck with cancer.

All of us who knew him and who had associations with him were hopeful that his cancer had, in fact, gone into remission and was permanently gone. Unfortunately, he has just suc- cumbed, after a lengthy battle with that disease. He is survived by his son Julius and by his daugh- ter, Alexandra. I know there are many times when those of us who are in this House or in public life look at members of the media and forget they've got fami- lies as all the rest of us do, but Clem does.

He served a real service to the public in British Co- lumbia with years of reporting on the issues of the day in a way that was forthright and informative. I know that his family will miss him. Certainly, our prayers and our hopes go out to Clem Chapple's family. Our thanks for his service. I would hope that the House and you, Mr. Speaker, will let the Chapple family know that we, too, share their loss and send them our condo- lences. Mr. Speaker: We will. So ordered. J. MacPhail: I would like to join with the Premier and all members of the Legislature in not only mourn- ing the passing of Mr.

Chapple but also celebrating his long career. The Premier is quite right. Mr. Chapple was proba- bly the introductory member of the gallery to many of us in politics. He certainly was in my case. When I first entered the public domain of politics, Clem Chapple was the first person to interview me, and I was ex- tremely nervous. He was a huge presence, both physi- cally and from an intelligence point of view. I had a person with me, and I introduced the reporter to this person as "Chem Clapple." I was just so nervous. Of course, as was his way of doing things, he actually re- ported that on TV as well.

My career has never recov- ered from that. So I want to get it right. Clem, we miss you greatly, and I join with the Pre- mier and all members of the government caucus in mourning your passing. Introductions by Members R. Hawes: This morning the British Columbia As- sociation of Optometrists met with a number of mem- bers of the Legislature and demonstrated a program they've put together for preschoolers that would show the importance of eye-testing, early eye-testing, for children. In fact, it's quite astonishing.

They pointed out that up to one in five young children has vision problems that are, in some cases, misdiagnosed as be- havioral problems or, at times, attention deficit disor- der. The program they've put together is a wonderful program. They've done it on their own initiative and should be congratulated for that. [1410] In the precincts today from the British Columbia Association of Optometrists…. Unlike the introduction the other day when they weren't here, today they are. They are led by Dr. John Gentles, president of the asso- ciation; Dr. Mary Lou Riederer, vice-president; Dr.

Paul Geneau, past president; Dr. Joan Hansen, president- elect of the Canadian Association of Optometrists; Dr. Paul Neumann; Dr. Michael Kellam; Dr. Lorie Bradley; and Cheryl Williams, the chief executive officer of the association. Could the House please make them wel- come. Hon. G. Plant: We're joined on the floor this after- noon by a former member of this assembly who repre- sented the great city of Richmond some years back and who, in his life since politics, has developed a signifi- cant reputation and expertise as a political scientist with particular interest in electoral reform. He's here to

6350 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 watch the debate this afternoon. He may probably be hoping in some way that he could participate in it, but we'll have to hold him back from that. I hope that all members of the House will join me in extending a very warm welcome to Nick Loenen. Hon. L. Reid: I want to join with my colleague from Maple Ridge–Mission and acknowledge and, hope- fully, encourage parents of youngsters in our province — two- and three-year-olds — to absolutely go and seek the early vision screening. Dr.

Joan Hansen is in the audience today, and she in fact performed that for my little girl at the age of two. It is an amazing gift that you can give very young children, which will indeed have a benefit in the school system of British Columbia. If I could encourage members of this House, their ex- tended families and members of the British Columbia populace to seek that service, it would be a benefit to all British Columbians. Hon. S.

Bond: I'd like to ask the House to join me today in welcoming a number of guests to the gallery: f i rs t o f al l , f ro m m y s t af f , S t uart C l ar k , t he d i re c t o r o f industry training; Mr. Jim Utley, the vice-president of human resources for Teck Cominco Ltd.; Eric Gerrits, the president of the Canadian Home Builders Associa- tion of British Columbia; and Bob Clarke, the executive director of the Automotive Retailers Association. Mr. Utley is a member of our industry training ad- visory committee, and Mr. Gerrits's and Mr.

Clarke's associations are both partners in two dynamic pilot projects that will lead to innovative industry training in British Columbia. I'd like you to help me in welcoming them and thanking them for the work that they have provided and the input into the projects that have been created. D. MacKay: I take pleasure today in standing and introducing a friend of our family for the past 35 years and the man who delivered both my children. I'd like the House to please give a warm welcome to Dr. Peter Culbert from Williams Lake. V. Roddick: I have two exciting introductions to make today on behalf of Delta South.

The Ladner Footmen, members of the Delta Field Lacrosse Associa- tion, coached by Vic Clayman and Clayton Bennett, won their first-ever provincial championship, to be followed by the Tsawwassen Extreme girls soccer team, who scored a major victory at the Gordon Head tournament in Victoria, playing what their coaches Jeff Irving and Martin Ray described as "the perfect game." The depth of the Extreme lineup was displayed by nine different players scoring in a 10-0 win against Victoria. Will the House give both teams well-deserved con- gratulations. D.

Hayer: It gives me great pleasure to introduce 27 grade 5 students from Pacific Academy in my constitu- ency of Surrey-Tynehead and also ten grade 9 interna- tional students coming all the way from Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Mexico. Joining them is their teacher, M r s . S h a r o n D o u g l a s , a s w e l l a s m a n y p a r e n t v o l u n - teers who have taken time out of their busy

schedule to accompany these students. Would the House please make them very welcome. [1415] J. MacPhail: We always have interesting people dropping by our offices. Today relatives of one of our staff dropped by, and they are in the chamber. Irving Sommerville and his wife Mabel and daughter, Sandra, are relations of one of our staff members. Sandra actu- ally worked for Cyril Keeper, who was an NDP MP from Manitoba. Would the House please make them welcome. Introduction and First Reading of Bills INDUSTRY TRAINING AUTHORITY ACT Hon. S.

Bond presented a message from His Hon- our the Administrator: a bill intituled Industry Train- ing Authority Act. Hon. S. Bond: I move that Bill 34 be read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. S. Bond: After careful review of the Industry Training and Apprenticeship Commission, we believe that a new model is needed to govern the industry training and apprenticeship system in British Colum- bia, a system that provides individual trainees with training opportunities that lead to employment and addresses skill shortages and meets employer demand for skilled workers.

The Industry Training Authority Act, which en- ables the establishment of this new training model, implements recommendations contained in the discus- sion paper entitled A New Model for Industry Training in British Columbia . This discussion paper, which was prepared by government working with the Industry Transition Advisory Committee, was the basis of broad consultation in January and February of 2003 through eight regional forums. Many of the participants at the forums agreed that changes to the current industry training system are necessary.

Their suggestions and concerns have been helpful in shaping the new model for industry training and apprenticeship in British Co- lumbia. The Industry Training Authority Act establishes the Industry Training Authority, which will be responsible for increasing the quality and quantity of training in British Columbia in order to address current and pro- jected shortages. The act contains general enabling powers of the authority which will allow for the estab- lishment of a more flexible and innovative industry training and apprenticeship system with new mecha-

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6351 nisms for skills development, assessment of skills and knowledge, and the granting of credentials. The minister's powers to make regulations will al- low for the designation of training programs that meet provincial, interprovincial or national standards and will ensure the recognition of interprovincial Red Seal trade credentials which facilitate interprovincial labour mobility.

The new governance structure and service delivery system that are provided for by this act will assure an industry-led system that is responsive to trainees and employers' needs as well as to economic change. I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 34 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. PERSONAL INFORMATION PROTECTION ACT Hon. S.

Santori presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Per- sonal Information Protection Act. Hon. S. Santori: I move that Bill 38 be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. S. Santori: This government is committed to ensuring that the B.C. private sector is positioned to take full advantage of commercial opportunities, espe- cially in electronic commerce. This government is also dedicated, in its strategic plan, to removing barriers to business.

As part of those commitments and the province's leadership in protecting the personal information of British Columbians, I am pleased to introduce the Personal Information Protection Act.

This bill is im- portant for British Columbia for a number of impor- tant reasons, but certainly there is no reason more important to British Columbia business than provid- ing a plain-language, easy-to-implement alternative to the confusing and cumbersome federal private sec- tor privacy act that will cover British Columbia in J a n u a r y 2 0 0 4 i f t h e p r o v i n c e d o e s n o t p a s s i t s o w n legislation. [1420] By retaining provincial jurisdiction over this impor- tant aspect of provincial commercial activity, this bill will reduce the regulatory burden for the B.C. private sector, fill in significant gaps left by the federal act and provide provincial oversight instead of oversight by a federal commissioner located in Ottawa.

Polls and surveys have shown a consistently high level of concern over the use of personal information over the Internet, a concern that is recognized as hav- ing a stifling effect on the public's utilization of elec- tronic commerce. This bill will help to reassure British Columbians that their personal information is pro- tected when they participate in electronic transactions. This bill will also ensure that British Columbia is able to take advantage of international trade opportu- nities.

The European Union, for example, may not al- low trade with B.C. companies involving personal in- formation if the province does not have its own act, because of the gaps in coverage left if B.C. is covered under the federal act. This bill also responds to 92 percent of British Co- lumbians surveyed who want this legislation and is in keeping with the overwhelming consensus of the over 150 B.C. business organizations or groups consulted that do not want to be covered by the federal act.

This bill minimizes the impact of privacy regulation on the B.C. private sector by creating less regulation and clearer regulation than the federal legislation — im- portant for small and medium-sized provincial busi- nesses. It ensures provincial control over this important aspect of the B.C. economy, avoiding both federal regu- lation and oversight. It promotes harmonization with other jurisdictions by providing a model provincial statute that other jurisdictions can copy.

It provides an essential foundation for electronic commerce and in- ternational trade by ensuring that British Columbia is in compliance with international standards for data protection, and it represents the culmination of exten- sive consultations incorporating private sector input in striking a balance between the public's strong desire to protect its personal information and the need for busi- ness to use personal information for legitimate busi- ness purposes. Hon. Speaker, I move that Bill 38 be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 38 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) WOMEN'S HOCKEY CHAMPIONSHIP D. Hayer: I want to say how proud I am of the Van- couver Canucks and how exciting they are making the Stanley Cup playoffs. But, you know, the hockey ex- citement has not been confined to GM Place and the Stanley Cup. Back in my riding of Surrey-Tynehead we hosted the Western Shield women's hockey champion- ship, and these playoffs were also very exciting. We had teams throughout western Canada playing in my riding, and at times Fleetwood rink was as tense as it was in Salt Lake City when our Canadian women bat- tled for and won the gold. Our own Fleetwood Hawks finished the four-day competition with a bronze medal. Perhaps one day we

6352 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 may see one of my constituents representing Canada in the Olympics at the next women's hockey finals. So while I want to congratulate the Vancouver Ca- nucks and wish them much luck and skill in their pur- suit of the Stanley Cup, I also want to tell Fleetwood Hawks; their coach, Harbs Bains, as well as his assis- tant, Wendy Kaiser; and the chair of the host commit- tee, Karen and Rick Kupchuk, that they did Surrey, my riding of Surrey-Tynehead and all my constituents proud in the Western Shield women's hockey champi- onship. UNIVERSITY OF VICTORIA I.

Chong: It is my great pleasure to announce that this year the University of Victoria is saluting post- secondary education by celebrating the fortieth anni- versary of UVic and the 100th anniversary of its prede- cessor, Victoria College. Both the campus and the community are coming alive with more than 90 special events this year. Victoria College first threw open its doors in 1903 as a public, co-ed, two-year university college.

Then in 1963, in the last of many moves, Victoria College estab- lished itself on the Gordon Head campus site and offi- cially became the University of Victoria. [1425] Over the last 40 years UVic has established itself as one of Canada's leading universities. People around the world recognize UVic for its dedication to excel- lence in teaching and for its innovative and interdisci- plinary approaches to research and scholarship.

Researchers at the University of Victoria work on the cutting edge of knowledge creation, making major contributions in a wide range of fields from fuel cells and cancer cells to climate change and cultural change. Thirty-seven current or former UVic faculty members have been elected fellows of the Royal Society of Can- ada, Canada's most prestigious accolade. Today more than 18,000 undergraduate and gradu- ate students from around the world enjoy a campus community that offers outstanding social, cultural, artistic, environmental and athletic opportunities.

At least seven members of this House are proud UVic alumni, including the Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services; the Minister of Hu- man Resources; the Minister of Health Services; and, of course, my colleague sitting right next to me, the mem- ber for Chilliwack-Kent. I congratulate the University of Victoria and its predecessors on their centennial. May they continue to bring pride to the people of Victoria and British Co- lumbia, and may they continue to play a role in the health of the world by contributing to the multitude of the wise. NATIONAL VOLUNTEER WEEK H.

Bloy: It gives me an honour today to rise in the House in support of National Volunteer Week. As most of you know, I have been an avid volunteer and a sup- porter of community groups, as I know every member of this House has been. It's just in the past week I was with the Burnaby Optimist Club, where they held a banquet honouring a number of students in an essay-writing contest. The Optimist Club of Burnaby is supporting youth, and they recognize them.

In the past week I was with the Burquitlam Lions Club over Easter at an Easter egg hunt, where there were over 500 participants coming out and probably 75 volunteers, with many things do- nated as a gift to the community. In the past two weeks I've sent a letter in support of Scouts Canada in a fund- raising effort. It's the experience, but in my position it's been an h o n o u r t o m e e t s o m a n y v o l u n t e e r s i n t h i s p r o v i n c e . We wouldn't have the cities and the communities that we enjoy today without volunteers.

Volunteers do their work quietly, and we must recognize that contribution a s o f t e n a s w e c a n . I n c o m m u n i t y t h e y s t r e n g t h e n bonds and family, and they help those who cannot help themselves. It's a privilege for me to stand here today and salute all the volunteers of British Columbia. Mr. Speaker: That concludes members' statements. Oral Questions FAIR PHARMACARE REGISTRATION J. MacPhail: Yesterday the Minister of Health Ser- vices announced what amounts to a new deadline to register for Pharmacare coverage.

Will he confirm to- day that the new deadline for registration is January 1, 2004, and that those British Columbians who register after that are hit with big drug bills and will not be reimbursed? Hon. C. Hansen: I have said this many, many times to this member over the last couple of days, but I will repeat it again. There is no deadline for registering for Pharmacare. She or anyone she knows can register today, tomorrow, next week or next year. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplementary question. J.

MacPhail: I know that the Minister of Health Services gets his little message box every morning, but perhaps he could listen to the question. I asked what happens… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. J. MacPhail: …if one doesn't register by the new deadline he set yesterday, which is January 1, 2004. As the minister knows, yesterday he announced this new d e a d l i n e i n r e s p o n s e t o a s c r i p t e d q u e s t i o n f r o m t h e member for Saanich South. But yesterday the minister

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6353 also admitted that the decision to set the new deadline was made months ago, but that they deliberately with- held that information. That's an astonishing admission of deliberate deception on the part of this minister. How can the minister accuse anyone — whether it be a Liberal constituency association, a senior or the opposition — o f f e a r m o n g e r i n g , w h e n h e a d m i t s t h a t he deliberately kept British Columbians in the dark about the new rules? [1430] Mr.

Speaker: Hon. members, I would caution us all to use parliamentary language, and "deliberate decep- tion" is unparliamentary. I would now ask the Minister of Health Services to respond. Hon. C. Hansen: I will reiterate this once again. There is no deadline for registration for the new Fair Pharmacare program. But I will try to help the member just a little bit.

I think what she is trying to refer to is the fact that if an individual British Columbian does not take the time to get registered and would have been eligible for benefits had they been registered, we will reimburse them at the end of this calendar year for any overpayment they may have made. That is emi- nently fair, but there is still no deadline. A person can register whenever they want. There is no obligation for an individual to register. It's a gre at program. It provides more financi al as- sistance to 280,000 British Columbia families compared to the program that was in place before.

I'm proud of the program, and I can assure British Columbians that, first of all, there's no obligation for them to register if they don't want to take advantage of these benefits. Secondly, they can register at any time, whether it's this year or next year. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplementary question. J. MacPhail: How insulting to the people of British Columbia that he would somehow suggest there's not a deadline because if they don't want the benefits, they don't have to register. How insulting to the poor, the sick and the elderly in this province.

Yesterday he set a new… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Let us hear the ques- tion. J. MacPhail: …deadline, saying that if you don't register by December 31, you don't get your benefits retroactively. Not only did the minister deliberately withhold that information that would have helped ease the worry and confusion that surrounds this botched registration process, but he deliberately communicated and advertised information that was incorrect about the program's requirements, according to the informa- tion he gives here on an hourly basis.

While the minis- ter was keeping quiet about the changed rules allowing British Columbians to be reimbursed if they registered after May 1, information provided on his website and through advertising tells those same British Columbi- ans that if they fail to register, they will lose benefits. Here's the quote. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Hon. member, can we have the question now, please. J. MacPhail: Yes, I will, Mr. Speaker. Here's the question. I'm giving information that deliberately con- tradicts what the minister says. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

I understand, hon. member. Could we please have the question now. J. MacPhail: Y e s . T h a n k y o u , M r . S p e a k e r . T h i s i s the question on the website: "What if I don't register by May 1?" The answer is: "You will not be eligible to re- ceive your maximum financial assistance." Can the Minister of Health Services explain why he continues to spread information that he knows is not correct, ac- cording to his own website? Hon. C. Hansen: There has been no change in pol- icy on this file since we announced it. There has been no change in the information.

I think the excerpt that the member just read out is…. We want to make sure that a low- or middle-income family in British Colum- bia that is eligible for benefits under the Fair Phar- macare gets them at the time they get their prescrip- tions filled. The only way those families can get those benefits at the time they get their prescriptions filled is to make sure they are registered.

I am pleased to report that of the 450,000 families t h a t h a v e b e n e f i t e d f r o m F a i r P h a r m a c a r e i n t h e p a s t and most of whom will continue to benefit in the future — and many more families will benefit in the future — those families, overwhelmingly, are already signed up. They will get the benefits starting tomorrow. [1435] It's unfortunate that this member did not get a more comprehensive understanding of the program from the start. Clearly, we have seen her understanding of this issue flip-flop from day to day as we have gone through this process. INFANT MORTALITY RATE S.

Orr: My question is to the Minister of Health Planning. Recently the media and the opposition have highlighted an increase in infant mortality rates. Fur- thermore, some have suggested that this government no longer uses the infant mortality rate as a measure of success in health care. This is very worrisome, if true.

6354 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 Therefore, I ask the minister to please tell us if this government has abandoned infant mortality rate as a performance measure and to explain how we compare to the rest of Canada. Hon. S. Hawkins: The measure of infant mortality is, always has been and will continue to be measured in B.C. Vital Statistics collects the information, and it is monitored. The provincial health officer reviews the data. It's used by both the Ministry of Health Services and the Ministry of Health Planning to assess how we can continue to improve on it.

The provincial health officer informs me that he is aware of the rise…. Interjection. Hon. S. Hawkins: Mr. Speaker, the provincial health officer informs me that he is aware of the rise in infant mortality. In 2001 there were 40,391 live births and 162 deaths. In 2002 there were 39,870 live births and 177 deaths. This data is not complete for that year. When it's completed, the provincial health officer will be reviewing it. He advises me that it is too early to say whether it's statistically significant or whether it indicates a trend. He also advises that it's too early to say what's causing the increase.

It could be SIDS — sudden infant death syndrome. It could be congenital anomalies. We are committed to making sure that infant mor- tality in B.C. is decreasing. We have the best infant mortality in the country according to our latest data, and we're going to continue to work with our provin- cial health officer and our health authorities to make sure that we keep it low. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. BARKERVILLE HISTORIC SITE J. Wilson: My question is to the Minister of Com- munity, Aboriginal and Women's Services.

I recently heard from a number of constituents who have ex- pressed concern regarding the devolution of manage- ment for the Barkerville historic site. Barkerville is an important part of the tourist indus- try in my riding, as well as being a significant piece of history for Cariboo residents. Can the Minister of Community, Aboriginal, and Women's Services explain what steps have been taken to ensure that tourism in Barkerville will not be negatively affected by this initia- tive and that all of the historical artifacts will be pro- tected? Hon. G.

Abbott: I certainly agree with the member that Barkerville is a huge tourism and cultural resource to the Cariboo. Certainly, what we're going to do through the devolution process is ensure that that great resource is both protected and enhanced. W e h a v e h a d s o m e e x p e r i e n c e i n t h e p a s t w i t h community-based, non-profit and private sector man- agement of heritage sites, and we're going to build on that very good experience in areas like Barkerville, Fort Steele and elsewhere.

We have taken a good deal longer — and it cer- tainly was our plan from the beginning to take longer — for some of the larger, more complex sites in the province, like Barkerville and Fort Steele. But in just a few days, early in May, we will be going to an RFP for Barkerville. I'm very confident that we will end up with some very excellent management for Barkerville as a consequence of that. LONG-TERM CARE BEDS IN POWELL RIVER AREA H. Long: My question is to the Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care.

Some of my constituents have approached me with concerns about the number of long-term care beds in the Powell River area. Families have had to face separation when those with needs for Alzheimer palliative care sometimes have had to leave the community in order to receive care they need. Can the Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care explain what efforts are being made to keep families together and to ensure that long- term care is available in my riding? [1440] Hon. K. Whittred: I thank the member for his in- quiry.

Our first goal, of course, is always to ensure that the patient has the appropriate bed for their level of care. To that end we are working in our redesign of long- term care to ensure that all communities, including heartland communities, have a broad range of options for seniors' care. Powell River will be receiving new complex care beds. In addition, there will be assisted-living beds; 20 have already been opened at Glacier Apartments. And as we speak, B.C. Housing and the Vancouver coastal health authority are working together on a project to renovate the Olive Devaud Residence into assisted- living units.

FAIR PHARMACARE REGISTRATION J. MacPhail: It turns out that my constituency office is as troubled as the Liberal constituency office. We've been trying for hours this morning to fax registration forms for seniors who can't afford to wait for the minis- ter to reimburse them at the end of the year, if that rule still applies — nothing but busy signals. As a result of the minister's misinformation campaign, these con- stituents are desperate to get registered before the min- ister changes the rules again.

I know the minister's had trouble keeping his story straight and is lost in the tangled web of contradictory and confusing information he's provided British Columbians.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6355 So I ask the minister this: would it help if the opposition provided him with a full briefing on the changes to the Pharmacare system that he announced last February, with a detailed accounting of the flip-flopping, the contradic- tion, the withheld information and the spread misinfor- mation? If it might help him clear up the confusion, I would be happy to do that for him. [End of question period.] Reports from Committees B.

Lekstrom: I have the honour to present a report from the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills. I would move that the report be read and received. Motion approved. Law Clerk: "April 30, 2003: "Your Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills begs leave to report as follows: "(1) that the

preamble to Bill Pr405, intituled Score Resources Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003, has been approved, and the committee recommends that the bill proceed to second reading; "(2) that the

preamble to Bill Pr403, intituled Cam Glass Inc. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003, has been approved, and the committee recommends that the bill proceed to second reading; "(3) that the

preamble to Bill Pr404, intituled M&M Insulations Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003, has been approved, and the committee recommends that the bill as amended proceed to second reading. "All of which is respectfully submitted. Chairman." B. Lekstrom: B y l e a v e , I m o v e t h a t t h e r e p o r t b e adopted. Leave granted. Motion approved. Bills Pr405, Pr403 and Pr404 ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sit- ting of the House after today. Petitions J. MacPhail: I rise to table a petition signed by 50 displaced IWA workers asking the government to en- force

section 71 of the Forest Act. Their jobs are directly affected by the decision not to enforce the laws that are designed to protect their jobs. Orders of the Day Hon. G. Plant: I call Motion 99 on the order paper. Motions on Notice CITIZENS ASSEMBLY ON ELECTORAL REFORM Hon. G.

Campbell: I move Motion 99 standing in the name of the Attorney General on the order paper. [Be it resolved that this House supports the creation of a Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform as expressed in the terms of reference and duties of the chair tabled in the House on Monday, April 28, 2003.] I am pleased to stand today in support of this mo- tion. It is a long time. In fact, this has never happened before, where a legislative body has said to the people who elect them that they want the advice of the public on how we should elect our elected representatives in the province of British Columbia.

Indeed, if you go back to 1858, this is the first time in 145 years we are actually giving the people of British Columbia a direct say in how they should elect the MLAs that are meant to serve them. After all, in a democracy, we should remember we are here at the service and the pleasure of the people of this province. [1445] On April 17, 1999, while I was still in opposition, I s a i d t h a t i t w a s t i m e w e g a v e t h e p e o p l e o f B . C . t h e right to demonstrate how they want to elect their MLAs.

I am proud to stand here today and say that this is the first government in the history of British Colum- bia — this is the first government in the history of our country — that has given the people that right. There is no more fundamental tenet that we agree to as we seek office than that in a democracy, the rules of the democracy should be designed by the people they serve, not by the power brokers who may wish that the democ- racy worked in their interests.

It is by turning to the peo- ple and trusting the public that I believe we can re- establish the critical link between our democratic institu- tions and those that they are supposed to serve. I said before, as we entered office, that we wanted to try to restore and re-establish the trust of the public for their public institutions.

I can think of no more im- portant way to do that than for those of us who are fortunate enough to be elected and to serve in these institutions to trust the public, to trust the public's judgment and to trust the public wisdom as we fashion a legislature that will truly meet the needs of every single part of this great province. Today we are debating a motion that will make our commitment to the people of B.C. a reality. The citizens assembly, as I said, is a first for British Columbia.

It's interesting that since 1949 — between 1949 and 2001 — there was not a government in this province that was elected by more than 50 percent of the popular vote. There have been people that have asked legitimate questions with regard to how we elect our elected rep- resentatives. The former MLA Nick Loenen, who has looked at this and examined this for some time, has some suggestions for how he thinks we could improve the system. I know members of this chamber, having experienced it, will have their own suggestions.

6356 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 The critical thing for us to recognize is that in a democracy, the open sharing of information, the open search for solutions to reform, to reinvigorate and to revitalize our public institutions should be an ongoing learning experience. It should be an ongoing search for discovery of what will do the best for the people that live in our province. I am proud to support this motion, and I am proud to be part of a legislature that has ta- bled it in the hopes that we can create that revitaliza- tion. These decisions should be made by those who elect us.

Last September the government asked Gordon Gib- son, a former member of this House, a former leader of a political party in the province but, more importantly, someone who has spent his life examining our public institutions in Canada and here in British Columbia…. We released Mr. Gibson's report, and I recommended both to members of this assembly and to members of the public who are interested to look at the various issues Mr. Gibson dealt with and the recommendations he came forward with. It is his recommendations that form the foundation for the motion which is before this House today.

There are some critical components of those re- commendations, which I believe are fundamental to both the spirit and the intent of what this government i s c o m m i t t e d t o d o i n g . W e w a n t e d a s m u c h a s w e could in this government to depoliticize this process, to have this process driven by citizens. As hard as it is for those of us who stand in this assembly or who sit in this assembly and serve an elected office to recognize, there are some British Columbians who aren't spending their every waking hour thinking about what we do and how we do it. An Hon. Member: No. [1450] Hon. G.

Campbell: That's true. But for us, what we want to do is try and engage those British Columbians — all British Columbians — in looking at this, because we have a gift here. We have a gift that those of us who were born in Canada or born in British Columbia sometimes take for granted.

We have a gift where it is indeed the work of the ballot, the casting of that ballot, that can constitute the momentum for change, the cata- lyst for change, the catalyst for strengthening our social union here in this province, the catalyst for building the kinds of communities that we want and the vehicle for imagining a future and then bringing people to- gether to pursue that future. I've worked and lived in a country where indeed it was not the ballot that drove those changes. It was the bullet. I've lived in a country that saw changes in gov- ernment that were carried out by coup, by military fiat.

I've never even come close to thinking that would hap- pen in Canada. We're fortunate to live in a country that does take the ballot and our democratic institutions seriously. Not just seriously — they're the very founda- tion of our culture, our beliefs, and what we can pursue and achieve as a country and as a province. I was not, and the government was not, wanting to c a s t o u r c i t i z e n s a s s e m b l y i n t h e f o r m e r m o u l d s t h a t we may have had in the past where political interests — where a specific interest in a specific result — drove the decisions of the assembly.

I should say again that I am proud that an assembly with this makeup is willing to say to citizens: "You decide." There is no secret. We did particularly well in the last election with the given set of rules for electing MLAs in British Columbia. There is also no secret that I believe each member of this House is committed to strengthening this institution. I believe that by giving the people of British Columbia the chance to shape this institution, we will do just that. In keeping our commitment to people, we said prior to the election that we believed the assembly should be selected like a jury.

It should be randomly selected. It should be a selection process that reaches out to each part of this province and, indeed, is reflec- tive of the people that live here in this province. Build- ing on the foundation of Mr. Gibson's recommenda- tions, our recommendation that you will see in the terms of reference says that we have asked the chief electoral officer to help guide a randomly selected citi- zens assembly. First, let me say this: we all know in this House that every British Columbian who is eligible to vote and eligible to be on the voters list has not necessarily regis- tered.

I would like to tell the members of the assembly and the public today that we want to encourage that registration. We will try to encourage it to take place in ways that will build our voters list and make sure that as many people as possible are registered, that we at least give citizens the chance to register. The chief electoral officer will then be asked to stratify a sample of names. That simply does this: it provides for an equal number of names from each rid- ing. It will provide for an equal number of men and women. It will provide for a distribution that's reflec- tive of the age of British Columbians.

Anyone who is 18 years or over and on the voters list will be eligible. A g a i n , w e w a n t o u r a s s e m b l y t o b e r e f l e c t i v e o f t h e generations that live in British Columbia, of the regions that exist in British Columbia and of the interests that exist in British Columbia. Interested persons will be able to attend local selec- tion meetings. They will self-select. They will randomly select, but they will self-select. It is important for all of us to recognize that this is

an act of true citizenship. It is

an act that will require those who participate to be- come educated, to spend time in deliberation and in public hearings across the province. I believe that it's critical that they know both their obligations and their responsibilities, as well as the timetable for action that will be laid out for the citizens assembly. W e s a i d t h a t w e w a n t e d m e m b e r s h i p t o b e r e p r e - sentative of the entire province. There is not a member in this House that doesn't recognize what an enormous place British Columbia is, how vast our province is and indeed how vast even regions within the province can be. In terms of meeting the needs of the regions of the

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6357 people who live there, we wanted to be sure that there was broad representation from each part and each cor- ner of the province. To achieve that, the terms of refer- ence provide a large membership of two members for each of the electoral districts that serve in this province, for a total of 158 members plus the chair, which will make the citizens assembly 159. [1455] It is important, I believe, for us to recognize that while Mr.

Gibson recommended some top-up provi- sions, we felt the expansion of the committee provided for more representation and more opportunity for people throughout the province. W e s ai d w e wo u l d h av e a m and at e t o ho l d p u b l i c h e a r i n g s t h r o u g h o u t B . C . T h a t w i l l t a k e p l a c e . A n d again, I want to say this clearly to this House.

We have recommended the appointment of a chair, and as you'll k n o w f r o m t h e s e c o n d m o t i o n b e f o r e t h e H o u s e , i t i s suggested that a special legislative committee be estab- lished to review that nomination from the government. Should that legislative committee unanimously sup- port the chair, then we will ask the chair to look at how this process should work, how many meetings should take place and where they should take place. But the spirit and the intent of the government are clear, and the budget for the assembly is clear.

We expect those meetings to be taking place throughout the province. It's important to allow the people of our province to have not just the oral opportunity but also the written opportunity to present to the citizens assembly. That is provided for in the terms of reference. We said we wanted to ensure clear endorsement by the assembly. Now, those of us who have been in- volved in public life for some time know there's noth- ing that can take up more time — often for fewer re- sults — than a constitutional debate, a debate about the ifs and buts and what-ifs and maybes that take place in the world we live in.

I've experienced this at the local level of government, and I've seen it time and time again where, because there is no single decision that's made, there is never a decision to improve the system, if that is indeed what's necessitated and required in the judgment of the assembly. We have specifically asked the assembly to recom- mend a specific change. If the assembly recommends a change by a majority vote of the assembly, that will require at least 80 members of the assembly to support it.

If the assembly recommends a change, then that option will be submitted to a provincewide referen- dum on May 17, 2005, just like we said it would be. The government wants to ensure that all British Columbians have an opportunity to vote before any change is adopted. We want to be sure any change that is adopted is truly endorsed by the regions of the prov- ince and the people of the province. We believe this is a fundamental and significant change, and we therefore have placed a double approval process in place.

First, the assembly must receive a 50-percent-plus- one approval rate from 60 percent of the ridings in the province. That's important, because at the end of the day we know we have to bring the whole province together as we make these changes, if indeed they should be recommended. Secondly, this change will require 60 percent overall voter approval. There are some who have already sug- gested that that is too high an approval rating. Clearly, the government disagrees with that. We believe this is a significant change.

It's a significant change that should require the kind of approval that says, indeed, a great majority of people in this province feel that they will benefit from this change — that they will benefit from this change, Mr. Speaker; not that we or any given politi- cal party will benefit from the change. I believe this is a very important step. One of the critical keystones of this assembly's success will rest in the person of the chair. It was important, I believe, for the chair to truly guide the assembly as we move for- ward. As you know, the government has nominated Dr.

Jack Blaney, the former president of Simon Fraser University, the current chair of the Fraser Basin Coun- cil, the man who was the driving force behind the dia- logue centre at Simon Fraser University, which is in- ternationally recognized as a centre for building learn- ing and understanding and for decisive decision- making. Mr. Blaney is known not just as a conceptual thinker but as a consensus builder. I believe he brings significant talents to the onerous task that lies ahead. [1500] Mr. Speaker, I want to be clear about this. I cer- tainly do not know what a citizens assembly will de- cide.

I do know this — that given the opportunity, citi- zens will be creative, will be thoughtful, will be inte- grative, will concern themselves with our entire prov- ince, will concern themselves with how government truly can serve the needs and the ideas of British Co- lumbians from every corner of this province. I have confidence in the people of British Columbia.

I have confidence that we have put forward before this House today a motion which will set in motion a true public debate, a true public discussion, a true public opportunity for learning about one of the critical parts of our lives: our democratic institution, our Legislature. This is a gift we've been given by previous generations. This is our opportunity to strengthen that gift. This is our opportunity to restore some of the confidence and trust that people should have in this great institution. This institution is not made up of us as individuals. E ac h o f u s ha s t he o p p o rt u ni t y t o s e rv e .

E ac h o f u s i s given the privilege of service when we come here. I believe that in passing and supporting this mo- tion, we will have exercised that privilege in a way that is exceptional, in a way that says we remember first and foremost that we are here at the service of the peo- ple of this province. There's no more important mes- sage that we could send. J. MacPhail: Speaking to the resolution for the citi- zens assembly, I make the following comments. Mr.

Speaker, over a year ago I wrote to the Premier as leader of the NDP offering our support for a process whereby the people of British Columbia could partici- pate in a non-partisan discussion of electoral reform. It

6358 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 is worth noting that Canada is one of the few liberal democracies continuing to use the first-past-the-post system. Elsewhere, the first-past-the-post system has been losing ground certainly in recent years. In 1993 New Zealanders voted in a referendum to scrap first-past-the-post and to replace it with propor- tional representation. In the United Kingdom the La- bour government, in its first term, introduced versions of proportional representation into the elections for the new Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland assemblies.

The government also adopted proportional representa- tion for the election of United Kingdom members of the European Parliament in 1999 and is considering hold- ing a referendum on reforming elections to the West- minster Parliament. In Canada as a whole, the proportion of Canadians expressing dissatisfaction with the electoral system increased from 39 percent to 49 percent just between the years of 1990 and 2000 — a big shift by the begin- ning of this decade.

The biggest change was registered right here in British Columbia, where the proportion of respondents who find first-past-the-post unacceptable increased from 43 percent to a full 63 percent — the highest level of dissatisfaction of any region. That study was Howe and Northrup of 2000. A survey conducted in early 2001 by the Canada West Foundation found that 71.6 percent of westerners, including 75.9 percent of British Columbians, favour the introduction of an electoral system based on pro- portional representation. That study was done by the Canada West Foundation in the year 2001.

Electoral reform is also championed by non- partisan organizations such as Fair Voting B.C. — for- mer MLA Nick Loenen is here today to observe the debate; it was a pleasure to see him on the floor of the Legislature — and also by a national g roup, F air Vote Canada, founded in August 2000. Those who are watching this debate…. For the in- formation of the members of this chamber but also those in the public who are watching, a copy of my letter to the Premier is available at www.bc.ndp.ca.

I know that the Liberal MLAs go to that site regularly, but I also hope the public will go and view that letter I sent to the Premier last year. [1505] An Hon. Member: I couldn't get in earlier. J. MacPhail: Yes, it is true. It is such a popular site that it is hard to get into. It's a little easier than the Pharmacare registration. I would like to take some of the highlights that our proposal at that time made to the Premier.

At the time, my proposal contemplated an appointed commission that would have included expertise from other jurisdic- tions and then an accompanying process that would have allowed the general population to participate in a referendum on a selection of options, followed then by a final referendum on a single option. The government this week has brought forward an alternative model, which is in large part the result of the hard work of Mr. Gordon Gibson.

He has consid- ered this problem at length, along with the assistance of many knowledgable British Columbians, and has also considered the expectations of government and the promises it has made. I would be remiss if I did not point out that Fair Vote Canada and others have expressed concern for the requirement of a supermajority, which is seen as an impediment to achieving the kinds of reform that some — I would say many — people are hoping for.

Acknowledging some of the shortcomings of this proposal but also acknowledging the need for reform, I do not want to impede the progress of this debate, whatever the form through which it will take place. But we also want to hold true to the commitment, best ar- ticulated by Mr. Gibson, that the process, from begin- ning to end, be as transparent as is possible. Therefore, when I was approached by the govern- ment some weeks ago with the suggestion for appoint- ing Mr. Blaney as chair, rather than holding to Mr.

Gib- son's suggestion of a candidate search by a committee of the Legislature, I made an alternate suggestion that fell between the government's original suggestion of merely appointing Mr. Blaney and Mr. Gibson's suggestion about a rather longer process of selection. I suggested that a confirmation hearing might be the way to meet the test of transparency but also deal with the very real problem of a limited time line on this initiative. I am pleased that the government acknowledged that suggestion and put it in place.

I'm also pleased that the government has sought to make the process more transparent by allowing for confirmation hear- ings for the lead staff. That was another suggestion I made a few weeks ago, and I'm pleased the govern- ment has embraced it. Despite the late date for the beginning of this process, many of the suggestions from Mr. Gibson are sage and should not be dismissed without full regard for the potential impact of dismissing his suggestions on both process and outcome. The government has accepted many of Mr.

Gibson's suggestions, but I am concerned that it has left unanswered the matter of taking the time to make sure all British Columbians know they need to be on the voters list. I did hear the Premier address that in his remarks earlier, except I do note that just a couple of days ago, April 28, the government backgrounder on the sum- mary of the Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform has this response to a recommendation made by Mr. Gibson: "Mr.

Gibson recommended that the selection process should be preceded by a publicity campaign for those not on the voters list to sign up." The decision listed by the government is: "No decision taken. Await recommendations of the chair." I hope we can take the Premier's words now that this government is going to proceed with a publicity campaign. However, I am concerned that the chair has not been granted the authority to make minor adjust- ments that may result in a change in the voters list and that would change the makeup of the assembly to bet- ter represent the population as a whole.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6359 [1510] I would therefore propose an amendment to the motion. I believe the government has a copy of that amendment, and the Table has a copy of the amend- ment. I'll read the amendment to the motion into the record. Moved by me: [That Motion 99 in the name of Hon. G. Plant be amended by adding after Monday, April 28th, 2003 the following: ", but recommends to government that it heed the advice of Mr.

Gibson that the Chair of the Assembly be given the power (but not the requirement) to add up to four additional members of the Assembly, randomly drawn from a category or categories of persons selected by the Chair."] This amendment would grant the chair the oppor- tunity to adjust the membership of the assembly to compensate for the underrepresentation of minority communities, as well as allow an alternative approach to the problems associated with using the voters list to draw the membership…. Mr. Speaker: Hon. member, are you speaking now to the amendment? Have you moved the amendment? J. MacPhail: Yes. Mr.

Speaker: No, I don't think so. J. MacPhail: I thought I asked that question. My apologies. Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, we'll just take a moment while we ensure that the amendment is in order. In the meantime, the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries seeks the floor for an introduction. Shall leave be granted? Leave granted. Introductions by Members Hon. J. van Dongen: I'm pleased to introduce to the House today 46 grades 4 and 5 students accompanied by a number of parents and their teachers, Mrs. Kehler and Miss Schmidt, and they're from Philip Sheffield Elementary School in Abbotsford.

Philip Sheffield School is very notable because it was once attended by a former Premier of this House, Premier Bill Vander Zalm. I ask the House to please make all of these stu- dents welcome. [1515] Debate Continued Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, we will just pause here for a few moments while we check out one aspect of the amendment. Please stand by. H o n . m e m b e r s , w e h a v e d e t e r m i n e d t h a t t h e amendment is in order. We will now proceed with the debate on the amendment. On the amendment. J.

MacPhail: My amendment would grant the chair the opportunity to adjust the membership of the assembly to compensate for the underrepresenta- tion of minority communities, as well as allow an alternative approach to the problems associated with using the voters list to draw the membership from. Of course, in particular, should the chair determine there isn't enough time to conduct a program of pub- licly encouraging sign-up over the course of two to three months — again, a recommendation Mr.

Gib- son made and the government has remained silent on until the Premier's speech today — then some 800,000 British Columbians will not be considered for membership. As Mr. Gibson points out, the group most under- represented is young people between the ages of 18 to 24. I'm sure all members of the Legislature join with me in wanting to make sure that generation is properly represented. This would be one way the chair could try to make amends for failings in the sample process. Another example I give you on perhaps the potential for underrepresentation is this.

Aboriginal persons make up only around 2 percent — perhaps a little bit more, but right now about 2 percent — of the British Columbia population and so would only, by the law of averages, take up three positions in an assembly of 158 persons. Mathematically, the stan- dard deviation on a number so small is close to two, meaning that the actual number selected could be just one aboriginal person or perhaps even none. It would be a shame if these proud people, who have a special constitutional role in the history and fu- ture of British Columbia, were to be completely ex- cluded.

In support of the amendment to the motion, I refer members to Mr. Gibson's report, pages 9 and 19, for a review of his arguments on these matters. Mr. Speaker: The member for Prince George– Omineca on the amendment. P. Nettleton: Thank you for this opportunity to speak to the amendment to the motion. Indeed, I am rising in support of the motion to take very seri- ously Mr. Gibson's recommendation, as referenced by the Leader of the Opposition, that the chair of the citizens assembly be able to appoint four mem- bers. I am disappointed to learn that the government has rejected this recommendation.

Even the most carefully constructed, randomly developed selection process is subject to issues of potential underrepresentation. That is why even the government here takes public opinion survey results with a large grain of salt or two. There's j u s t n o w a y t h e y a r e d o n e p e r f e c t l y , a n d s o w e m u s t compensate. The goal is to get a citizens assembly to look at elec- toral reform, and that assembly would be composed of

6360 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 people representative of the population of our prov- ince. What happens if, as luck would have it, a certain group such as aboriginals are left off the assembly after the names have been pulled from the hat? Surely, the government would want to have a first nations per- spective on this most important issue. Surely, they would want to be known for allowing for the input of British Columbians from all walks of life. Surely, that is why Mr. Gibson has added this recommendation and has done so in a reasoned and cautious manner.

Funny that the government now rejects this. [1520] You would think that on the one hand, they are so committed to making electoral reform happen in the interests of enhancing democracy as it is practised in this province. But on the other hand, the government appears not to be doing so, or at least not doing their utmost to ensure that the assembly itself — the bedrock of this new-era promise — is properly constructed and constituted. In conclusion, I support the inclusion of this re- commendation when it comes to the selection of the citizens assembly.

It will ensure that the assembly does the job it will be entrusted to do to the best of its ability and in a thorough manner. Hon. G. Plant: I appreciate the spirit with which I believe the amendment is offered — that is, to ensure that the citizens assembly is as broadly representative of British Columbia as it can be. I want to speak now to the amendment, recognizing that after we deal with the amendment, I assume the opposition leader will have more to say about the main motion. I look forward to continued debate. There are a couple of things that I think are relevant to the context of this issue.

They were part of the con- text, I suppose, identified by the opposition leader in making the motion. She pointed out a concern with respect to underrepresentation of young people on the voters list. I think she was right to point out that in the docu- ments we released a day or so ago at the time that we released Mr. Gibson's report, we stated that govern- ment had essentially not taken a position that we would undertake a campaign to encourage voter regis- tration at this point.

We thought that might be a matter that could be left to the chair, but actually I think we do have an obligation here as government to do some of that work now. When the Premier said in his remarks earlier that he thought that we did have an obligation to encourage voter registration, he meant it. That is the view that we have as government, so there will be some work done in that regard that does not require that we wait until the appointment of the chair. It may be that the ap- pointment of the chair will not take long, in which case some of this work may overlap with the chair's ap- pointment.

I think we have to acknowledge that there is an issue with respect to underrepresentation in the voters list. That issue was identified by Mr. Gibson. We ac- knowledge it, and I think we understand and accept an obligation to move forward to help address that issue. I believe it's almost inevitably the case that that work will involve some activity on the part of the Elections B.C. folks, and I intend to commence that discussion immediately.

In terms of making sure that we address this issue of underrepresentation, I want to assure the House that we take that issue seriously, and we are going to move forward with it. There's also the issue that the member for Prince G e o r g e – O m i n e c a i d e n t i f i e d o f m a k i n g s u r e t h a t t h e assembly has the input of all British Columbians. I think that assurance is implicit in the fact that we be- lieve this assembly has an obligation to spend some time travelling around the province and listening to British Columbians.

I think the members of the assem- bly will feel an obligation to listen to and receive input from all British Columbians, so all British Columbians will indeed have an opportunity to provide input to the assembly. [1525] But the question that the amendment speaks to, fundamentally, is: how do we constitute the assem- bly? We think that the principle of random selection is important. When we spoke to Mr.

Gibson about his recommendations with respect to the size and compo- sition of the assembly, we asked him, among other things, whether and to what extent his views about the s i z e o f t h e a s s e m b l y w e r e i n f l u e n c e d b y t h e f a c t t h a t the terms of reference for his work required that he take into consideration issues of budget. He said that, in fact, his views were to some extent influenced by the issue of budget. To put that in another way, in offering the recommendation that the assembly should be somewhere between 79 and 100 or so people, Mr.

Gibson was trying to live within the terms of a budget that he thought was reasonable. That process, influenced or not by budget, inevitably led Mr. Gibson to wrestle pretty hard with the question of: how do you get an assembly that is as representative as possible? The members of the assembly and members of the public who have read Mr. Gibson's report will have seen, I think, that he identified that it's not necessarily the easiest issue in the world and also offered a number of ideas for how to get to an assembly that would be as representative as possible of the interests of all British Columbians.

Our view is that the majority of the concerns about representativeness of the assembly can actually be dealt with and are being dealt with in our proposal, which is essentially to double the size of the assembly. When I read the analysis in Mr. Gibson's report that supports the amendment that the opposition leader has put forward, I read it from the perspective of the con- text that Mr. Gibson had before him. I think that be- cause the circumstances have changed in a pretty im- portant way, the need for the amendment and the need for the process contemplated by the amendment have also changed.

By making the assembly essentially twice as large as it had originally been conceived it could be, we have

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6361 increased significantly the chance that the assembly will be representative of the broad diversity of British Columbia. We know going in that the first round of selection of possible members of the assembly will be organized in a way that ensures gender balance, geo- graphic distribution and some measure of age balance. I may have more to say about those issues when we get to the main motion. By doubling the size of the assembly, I think we've made it much more likely that we're going to achieve a balanced and representative assembly.

If we abandon the principle of randomness to adopt a principle that says the chair or some other person can select members of the assembly, there are, I think, both practical and theoretical problems. First of all, the practical problems. It's not com- pletely clear where the names will come from that will constitute the source of the top-up members or pro- posed members that are contemplated.

I have to say that while the voters list is clearly the best tool for iden- tifying the right class of British Columbians to partici- pate in this process, the voters list doesn't tell us very much about people other than their names and their places of residence. [1530] To get beyond that, even to deal with issues of age and gender — although I'm sure the voters list would be helpful for most cases as far as gender goes — will require a bit of work on the part of those who under- take the first stratification.

To get beyond that even further, to explore issues of ethnic identity, and so on, will require even more work and perhaps a measure of invasion of personal privacy, in some respects, that some may find difficult to accept. I'm not saying that those issues are insurmountable obstacles, but it seems to me that they are pretty important practical chal- lenges. The philosophical issue, I think, is where I finally come to a landing on the proposed amendment.

I think that by giving the chair the power to appoint members to the assembly, we are changing in a way that is more important than I may be able to appreciate standing here — changing in a pretty important way the funda- mental makeup of the assembly. There will be some members who will have been selected by random and some who will have been ap- pointed by the chair. It may be that you could do it in a way that that wouldn't be known. I'm not sure how certain you could be about keeping that so for the whole time that the assembly was at work.

The main reaso n why that is so is because, if the member's pro- posal were to be accepted, there would be at least one and as many as four constituencies that would have one, two, three or four more members representing their constituency than would be produced by the pro- posal that we have here, which will have two constitu- ents from each constituency in the province. I don't claim that these things are absolutely black and white. I don't know that there is an absolutely right answer to these things.

I think that the extent to which it takes a bit of time to think your way through them is made clear by the fact that Mr. Gibson took quite a bit of time to think his way through them. We've changed the framework a little bit — and I think in an important way — by doubling the size of the assembly. I think that has a great likelihood of pro- d u c i n g a n a s s e m b l y t h a t i s b r o a d l y r e p r e s e n t a t i v e o f the people of British Columbia.

We're going to do some work to give all those people in British Columbia who could be on the voters list, but aren't, a chance to sign u p i f t h e y w a n t t o . T h a t ' s p r o b a b l y w o r k w e s h o u l d always be doing in any event. For those reasons, I think that we should maintain the basic structure of the recommendations set out in the terms of reference, and the government will not be supporting the amendment put forward by the opposi- tion leader. Mr. Speaker: Thank you, hon. members. The question will be on the amendment as proposed by the Leader of the Opposition.

I will read it just so that everyone is clear as to what the amendment is. [That Motion 99 in the name of Hon. G. Plant be amended by adding after Monday, April 28th, 2003 the following: ", but recommends to government that it heed the advice of Mr. Gibson that the Chair of the Assembly be given the power (but not the requirement) to add up to four additional members of the Assembly, randomly drawn from a category or categories of persons selected by the Chair."] [1535-1540] Amendment negatived on the following division: YEAS — 2 Nettleton MacPhail NAYS — 64 Coell Hogg L.

Reid Halsey-Brandt Hawkins Whittred Cheema Hansen J. Reid Santori Barisoff Roddick Wilson Masi Lee Hagen Murray Plant Campbell Collins Clark Bond de Jong Nebbeling Stephens Abbott Coleman Chong Penner Anderson Orr Nuraney Bell Long Chutter Trumper Johnston Bennett R. Stewart Hayer Christensen Krueger McMahon Bray Les Locke Nijjar Bhullar Wong Bloy Suffredine

6362 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 MacKay Cobb K. Stewart Visser Lekstrom Brice Sultan Hamilton Sahota Hawes Kerr Manhas Hunter On the main motion. J. Bray: I am proud to rise in support of this motion. First, I wish to congratulate the Premier, the Attorney General and all members of government for fulfilling what I believe is one of our boldest new-era commit- ments: the establishment of the Citizens Assembly on Electoral Reform. For my constituents, the issue of electoral reform and the citizens assembly is very prominent.

In discus- sions I have had in my community, members of my community have had great anticipation that we would reach this day and that a real process would be devel- oped to let the voters review and choose the method of electing their MLAs. For me, this is one of my proudest days as a legislator. I believe this is a progressive step in our vision of parliamentary reform that honours the voters rather than serving political parties. The subject is important because politics comprises the institutions, rules and practices which permit and limit access to state power.

Politics, if you will, is the space between citizens and state. It was W.H. Auden who said: "There is no such thing as the perfect democ- ratic state, good for all time." Our political institutions change even when we're not paying attention to them. But as circumstances change, so, too, will our attention focus from time to time on the need to embrace more consciously the project of political reform. The Premier has mentioned this to some extent, but I wish to review some of the history around how we've arrived at this day. For many, this particular story be- g i n s o n e l e c t i o n n i g h t i n 1 9 9 6 .

T h e B . C . L i b e r a l P a r t y lost the provincial election by six seats, despite winning a majority of the popular vote. The election may have marked a turning point in B.C.'s political history, be- cause the outcome prompted people of every political stripe and even people not committed to any political party to take a good, long look at their electoral system. Some said the system had failed us. Others argued that the will of the people had not been served. There was a call for electoral reform, and that call has never really ended. Fast-forward, then, to 2001.

In the run-up to the campaign, we told voters it was time for a change — not just a change in the cast of governors but also a change in the way government works and a change even in the institutions of government themselves. In our campaign platform we committed to changing the public service, to changing the operations of govern- ment and to opening up a formal discussion about elec- toral reform through the mechanism of a citizens as- sembly. The results of the last election have, for some, shifted the focus of debate on electoral reform.

In the last election a majority of the popular vote translated into a massive majority for one party in the Legislature. As a result, parties like the Greens received a signifi- cant number of votes but received no seats or elected representatives in the Legislature. [1545] [J. Weisbeck in the chair.] The question of electoral reform raised in 1996 has not been answered, but it may have been redefined.

At times the current debate focuses more on ways of en- suring political parties are happy with the number of seats they get on election day, but the fundamental goal of elections is not to serve the needs of political parties. The goal of elections is to give citizens a voice in choosing their government. Thus the urgent ques- tion for 1996, 2001 and all elections is: how do we cre- ate a system that better serves all the people of the province?

The history of electoral reform in British Columbia has traditionally focused on enfranchising political parties — not enfranchising political parties, rather, but enfranchising voters. In 1876, for example, B.C. dropped property ownership as a qualification to vote, thereby expanding the franchise. Forty years later the province extended voting rights to women. The voting age has been dropped over time from 21 to 18. Even the most significant changes in the last ten years have fo- cused on reforming politics to better serve the interests of voters — for example, the 1995 Recall and Initiative Act.

Of course, there is also a legislative history of regu- lating political parties, culminating in the 1995 Election Act, a statute which prescribes, in 160 pages of mind- numbing detail, the way in which we are and are not permitted to engage in electoral democracy. But the main focus is, and ought to be, not the political party but the voter. We must re-engage the public in the whole process around elections, around having repre- sentatives and around engaging that communication between government and individuals.

We've heard a lot of talk over the last several years about the disinter- est that young people feel in elections and the electoral process, that various levels of government are seeing declining numbers of people turning out to vote as they feel the system doesn't reflect their wishes — ergo, why should I participate? That is not good for democ- racy; that is not good for the Canadian way of life or the British Columbia way of life. It is time for us to engage in the conversation with British Columbians, by British Columbians, for British Columbians about how to re-engage people in the process of elections.

It's not an easy task, but I do believe that we need to ensure that our inquiry is not limited to a mindset that automatically identifies partisan representation as a benchmark of a successful electoral system. To date, our government has amended the Constitution Act to provide that, barring dissolution for lack of confidence, provincial general elections will be held on the second Tuesday in May every four years. Similarly, we have

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6363 followed up the fixed election date reform with laws establishing a fixed date for tabling the provincial budget and a set legislative calendar. We have also committed to free votes in the Legislature to permit MLAs to vote freely on behalf of their constituents on all matters not specifically identified as a vote of confi- dence. This brings us back to the citizens assembly. B.C. is a unique political entity. We are neither New Zealand nor Germany nor Israel. Our population is widely dis- persed and diverse.

We cannot redesign our electoral system without asking ourselves the question: what is it we expect our MLAs to do? The fundamental objective of the citizens assembly takes us back to the fundamental objective of electoral reform. To achieve this objective, we believe it neces- sary to take the question of electoral reform out of the hands of politicians and place it in the hands of people we are elected to serve. The challenge was to find a way to create a citizens assembly that effectively repre- sents the citizens of this province and gives voice to their concerns.

The motion before us now answers that challenge. This motion sets forth the terms of reference that will ensure that the process will reflect the views of citizens picked at random, that the system will reflect the views of all regions — urban, semi-urban and rural — and that should a change be recommended there is enough time for public debate and education before the refer- endum question. [1550] I have been very encouraged by the initial response to the proposed citizens assembly. In fact, I note in my own community, which has a diverse political spec- trum represented, some very positive feedback.

I've also noticed that we've had some good, positive feed- back from others in the community. I'd like to just read a few of those examples. From Chris Delaney of the Unity Party: "We sup- port the criteria put forward by the B.C. government for the assembly, especially the requirement that this be a citizens assembly by not allowing politicians or parties to participate. B.C.

Unity feels strongly that all political parties are in a conflict of interest with respect to recommending electoral system change and that they should not try to influence the outcome of the assembly." I think that is exactly the intent that we're bringing forward. We're actually removing our own self- interest. All political parties and individuals in political parties are going to have that self-interest. We remove that from the process.

Also, from Fair Voting B.C., I quote from director Julian West: "The government deserves high marks for keeping this election promise and for placing the pub- lic interest first." This is why I think this is such a significant step forward in our whole vision for parliamentary reform. We are actually removing our own vested interest from the process. This will be a citizens assembly that will decide for the public how MLAs will be elected, but what's critical — and what I hope to convey during my comments — is that it's not about just changing the way 1996 may have unfolded or the way 2001 may have unfolded.

What the citizens assembly is going to be reviewing is how we hold elections for the next 150 years per- haps, just as we have not really had this process in the first 150 years. We're not just talking about doing things for the Liberal Party or the Green Party or the NDP Party, because 100 years from now all those par- ties will probably have different names and be talking about different things, but the voter will still be there.

We have to ensure that 50 and 60 years from now, vot- ers aren't so disengaged from the process of elections that it almost makes it meaningless — that so few peo- ple participate that it is no longer representative of anything but special interests rather than the interests of every British Columbian and every voter. As a representative of a very active, engaged com- munity, the citizens assembly represents a bold move forward in our vision for parliamentary reform. I be- lieve that the entire country will watch this process — the process of citizen involvement, public engagement and democracy.

Today I am proud to be a Member of the Legisla- tive Assembly, proud to be a British Columbian and proud to be a Canadian. I encourage all my constitu- ents to contact my office over the weeks and months ahead to learn how to become involved and how they can make a contribution to this process. In closing, the electoral system belongs to the peo- ple. It is only fitting that they should decide how they wish to elect MLAs. Hon. G. Halsey-Brandt: I rise this afternoon in fa- vour, of course, of Motion 99, the creation of the Citi- zens Assembly on Electoral Reform.

It's been almost 150 years since the founding of the colony of British Columbia, and our province has had the same system of electing its government over that past almost 150 years. Of course, that system is first past the post. Whoever gets the most votes in a riding takes that particular riding or that seat. This, of course, is our tradition of the British parliamentary system. It's the same across Canada, and it's been the same over the years in much of the British Commonwealth. Today, however, it's being used in increasingly limited numbers of nations around the world and in states that make up those nations.

Today it's still used in Great Britain. It's used to some extent in the United States, Australia and perhaps, as I said, a few other countries. But even in countries like the United States and particularly Australia — in the particular states that make up those nations — they not only have members of their congress, but they also have a senate as well within each state, which tends to balance off different views within those jurisdictions. The first-past-the-post system has indeed stood the test of time across Canada, because it has brought sta- bility to our governments.

We have had relatively few minority governments in Canada or in British Colum-

6364 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 bia. However, as was stated earlier by other members, the drawback is that many parties and people in our p r o v i n c e a n d i n C a n a d a w h o m a k e u p p e r h a p s a smaller minority of voters in those constituencies feel that their interests are not being served. [1555] W he n we d o l o o k aro u n d t he wo rl d , i n f ac t , t he re are many different methods of elections that are being used.

Part of the pleasure of the particular portfolio that I hold in intergovernmental relations is the oppor- tunity to meet with many ambassadors or consul gen- erals representing those countries around the world. Just yesterday I had the opportunity to introduce to this Legislature the ambassador from Hungary. I had the opportunity after that to have a brief meeting with him. One of the items we did cover, because I knew this was coming up today, was what system they used in Hungary. It's fascinating, because in a sense it's very new to their nation.

As we know, when the end of the Cold War came in the late 1980s, Hungary was a one-party state. That's what the constitution in fact laid out in that nation. At the end of the eighties they had to sit down and decide how they wanted to be governed as a new nation of Hungary in 1989. A nation of ten million people, fairly small in geo- graphic area, had a little over 300 deputies in their Leg- islature. The system they chose was to do half of those deputies by geographic areas — by riding, if you will — and half based on proportional representation.

There was a caveat that parties had to get 5 percent, at least, of the popular vote in order to qualify for that proportional representation. If they didn't get that, they were redistributed to other parties on a preferential ballot. That's how they came, as a new nation, to un- derstand how democracy would work in that country. Sort of the other extreme is Holland. I understand that in that country, there are no ridings per se. It's all done by proportional representation. Perhaps in a country that small in terms of geographic area that system could work well for them.

The country of New Zealand was mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition a few minutes ago. It brought in a combination of geographical ridings and propor- tional representation back in 1993. Each person in each one of those ridings gets two ballots — one for their local member and one for the party list that comes out that they wish to vote for. The thing that intrigued me about New Zealand was that they were perhaps wise enough to build into this change they brought in that they would review it after two or three elections to see how it worked out.

The population would have a chance to perhaps have another referendum, after two or three elections passed, to see if they were comfortable with that sys- tem or whether they wanted to go back to their old system. That's something that the citizens assembly might think about. This motion on the citizens assembly offers us a chance to have a fresh look at our electoral methods in British Columbia. Most importantly, the responsibility for this review is with the people of British Columbia, randomly selected.

Perhaps unfortunately for some of us, it's not involving the politicians, as we have a very strong vested interest and are a little too close to the question. Perhaps first past the post will be chosen as the best system, and that will be the end of the debate, but perhaps another system that reflects the diverse geography and wide variety of political viewpoints will be recommended to the electorate. That will be up to the assembly and go to a referendum in 2005. In conclusion, I wish to congratulate the Premier and this government for the courage to bring this mo- tion for electoral reform forward.

Certainly, it's part of our New Era election document, and we are living up to that commitment. I look forward to a lively debate by the citizens assembly and, if the recommendation for change is made, a debate during the referendum pe- riod. I would like to also thank personally Mr. Gordon Gibson for his work in preparing his report on the citi- zens assembly and all those British Columbians who took the time to provide their input into Mr. Gibson's report on this very important issue. M. Hunter: I rise today on what I think is a very bright day for democracy in British Columbia.

I want to add my thanks to those of some of my colleagues who have spoken to the Premier, for his vision in bringing this initiative to the state it is now at. I also want t o o f f e r m y t hank s t o m y f ri e nd G o rd o n G i b s o n for the enormous public service he has provided in giving us the basis for this debate and for moving for- ward. [1600] I have to say that my entry into public life was a bit of a surprise to me in many senses, but I made the leap because, like many of my co-citizens, I was jaded and I was cynical about the state of our public institutions and what was happening to them.

I was attracted to public life by a political party and a leader who prom- ised to put the people's interest first. Really, today I rise on this motion because I just can't forgo the opportu- nity to speak on a subject that is extremely important and that affected my personal life by bringing me here. This is a very important landmark step that we are making in our promise to provide open government. The charge we are giving our fellow citizens, whoever they may be — those who will comprise the assembly — is indeed, as other members have stated, a serious one.

The right to vote is one that was hard won, it was hard fought, and it has been hard defended over many, m a n y y e a r s . I n f a c t , i t i s a r i g h t , a s w e k n o w i t , t h a t s t r e t c h e s b a c k i n m y c u l t u r e 4 0 0 y e a r s . F o u r h u n d r e d years ago or more, my forefathers fought a civil war to establish the right of the people to govern themselves under the guidance, not the rule, of the monarch. It is why we sit here in this chamber two swords' length apart. That's a result of the civil war. It is a right that I think about every time I enter this chamber.

And I think anybody who tells you they don't have a certain

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6365 feeling or emotion about being here…. I don't think they should be here. Four hundred years later in our corner of the world we are now going about asking how our right to vote should be exercised and how, in effect, we govern our- selves. I know that there are many examples of differ- ent voting systems and democratic systems based on British or French or American models. I'm sure the assembly will examine proportional representation in all its forms. It will examine runoff votes. It will exam- ine first past the post and others.

But at the end of the day, I really hope the assembly will look at stability of governance and how any pro- posals they may develop affect the stability of how we govern ourselves, because voting mechanisms can af- fect and have affected that important part of this insti- tutional structure. I believe the double majority system that is part of this motion is an important safeguard to ensure that if any changes are recommended, they will be clearly understood and clearly approved by the people. Mr.

Speaker, the time will come for discussions on technical issues, and I can assure you and my col- leagues that I intend to submit my views, which I hold quite strongly, and I hope other citizens will express their views strongly as well. That's not what this debate today is about, and we could spend an awful lot of time discussing the merits. Indeed, this is why we have a citizens assembly to talk about those technical issues. What is important today is that we are breaking a mould in Canada.

The citizens assembly moves this province away from the Meech Lake and Charlottetown we-know-it-all-and-we'll-tell-you-what's-best approach to constitutional reform. That approach did not serve this country, did not serve this province. Here the people are going to decide the future of how they will exercise that hard-won right to vote. I am proud to support this motion and to be part of the evolution of democracy in British Columbia. P. Bell: I think this motion, being numbered Motion 99, is truly symbolic of something — certainly of the greatest hockey player that we all know and love.

In my view, 99 years from now people will look back at today as a historic day in the province. And I'm not so s u r e t h a t t h i s w o n ' t b e a h i s t o r i c d a y , i n f a c t , f o r d e - mocracy. There are many bold moves this government has taken in its first just under two years of office, but none more bold than this particular one. Perhaps when in the year 2103 we look back at today, we'll see that we've truly changed the face of

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0430pm 12
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0430pm 12
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	fd456b68c430ecd105a7b0a55671f4306fc82970

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