Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MAY 1, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 43

May 1, 1975 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape No, 1949 NOTICE OF IDTION: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. NM - 1 HON, A. HICKMAN, MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Industrial Relations and Manpower, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act 'Respecting Labour Relations." ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island, MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Acting,Acting,Acting Premier, the Minister of Justice, Acting House Leader, acting for several departments - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! If the honourable Member for Bell Island intends to ask a question I suggest he get on with it. MR. NEARY: - would give the House a brief report of the state of the paper, the pulp and paper industry in this Province at the present time? MR.

HICKMAN: Mr, Speaker, obviously I cannot give a report as to the state of the pulp and paper industry in the Province at this time or in the world for that matter, I can advise the House that yesterday afternoon, or yesterday, I think it was the afternoon, sometime yesterday anyway, Mr. Beardsley of Bowaters telephoned me to advise me of the close down of Bowaters pulp and paper mill in Corner Brook for two weeks and that when the mill resumes operations it will go on a five day week.

I certainly expressed to him the concern of government in the action that this private company is taking but he did point out,and certainly there is no evidence to indicate otherwise, that the p,eneral poor economic conditions that are being experienced internationally, have softened market conditions. Other pulp and paper mills, there are paper mills in Canada,! am told by him, and in the United States, indeed the world's largest recently 5G59

'Jay 1, 1975 Tape No. 1949 NM - 2 closed down in Southern California. I tried to ascertain from Mr.

Beardsley whether he was optilllistic over the future, He would only say that he has no cause to be pessimistic and that they are trying to maintain their inventory at a satisfactory level and at the same time to keep it properly housed and this is why they cannot allow their inventory to build up, And I think, well it is well known, that a very large percentage of the product of Bowaters is sold in the United States and anyone with half a brain knows that the United States is going through the severest recession since the great depression and every economist, every government leader in the United St.ates is keeping his or her fingers crossed hoping that indeed that is all it is 1 a recession.

And as the conditions improve in - the economic conditions - in the markets of the consumer, namely the United States, hopefully this will reflect in the conditions of the industry in Newfoundland. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island, MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the Acting,Acting Premier; would the minister be in a position to enlighten the House as to the devastatinii; effects that the closures at Grand Falls, Stephenville Linerboard Mill and at Corner Brook, the devastating effects that these closures and possible layoffs and reduction in time will have on the economy of the Province'"? MR.HICKMAN: I cannot do that today. MR. NEARY: The minister cannot give - will the minister do a little reconnaissance to try to find out?

Will the minister also tell the House if the government will try to find jobs in the Corner Brook area for the students who will not be able to find jobs this coming sunnner with Bowaters, which will be a very serious matter for these students if they cannot find employment during the summer. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I understand that there are about, normally between fifty and sixty-five students obtain summer employment in various categories, under various levels of income in the Bowaters operation. There are many, many hundreds, hundreds literally, probably thousands of students 5660

t-'.ay 1, 1975 Tape No. 194-9 NM - J in Newfoundland who also look for gainful employment throughout the ProVince, many of whom obtain it in the constru ·ction industry. I understand that Canada Manpower and the University, I do not know .if it is the Students' Cowcil or the university office themselves, they are the ones who exert effort to try and indicate to Students where jobs are available and also at the same time try and convince employ.ers throughout the Province that the~e should be employment made available for students. 5561

r1ay 1, 1975. Tape 1950 RH - l MR. NEARY: Well, is the government going to do anything or are they? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: I gather from the minister the government is going to do nothing. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HONOURABLE MEl-fBER: (First

part inaudible) Bowaters, boy. Take them over. HR . JUCJOIAN: You know, that is the problem. The silliest question that has been asked in the last three years in this House, Mr, Speak.er. MR. NEARY: No, it is a good question. It is a good question. MR. HIC1(}1AN: Insofar as government is concerned - MR. NEARY: They are going to do nothing. MR.

HICKMAN: Insofar as government is concerned we have instituted a new procedure,in the process of instituting a new procedure,within the government service this year. sorather than have students being obliged to trot into every department and saying to someone,have you got summer employment for me and what they were doing you do not blame them to cover all bets, they were indeed going to each depart­ ment.

We are trying to and we will centralize an enquiries desk so that anyone who wants to know whether there are any jobs available, and what _iobs are indeed available in the public service with the ~overmnent during summer vacation, can go to one desk and enquire and if, say, Tourism, if they have twenty jobs, the man on that desk will be told there are twenty jobs in Tourism, nineteen of them filled, if you want to apply for the other one you better go upstairs and ~PP whoever the appropriate official is.

The government certainly has not,and I do not think any sensible, sane 1thinking Newfoundlander would expect the government to start implementing more than it is doing already in programmes for summer employment. We have to bear in mind, Mr. Speaker, that we also as the government have an obligation to lool: after those who are looking 566Z

Hay 1, 1975. Tape 1 ~51) PJ! - 2 for permanent employment. MR. NEARY: Well, you are not doing a very good job on that score either. Mr. Speaker, wottld the ¥inister of Justice, the actin?, Premier, Sir, indicate to the House whether or not there will be any layoffs, any reduction in the work force either at Grand Falls, l\owaters or at the Linerboard Mill in Corner Brool( or at Stephenville as a result of the soft market conditions? Sir, would the minister indicate if there is any liaison hetween these three hig companies in tleHfoun<ll;md and the governm,:,nt other than just a phone call to the minister?

Would the minister indicate if there is any ongoin1~ discussions between the government and these ccn1panies? Would the minister indicate where the Premier is now th'lt we need him? Do we have to send a search party out for him? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! The Chair gets the feeling that the honourable ¥ember for Bell Island is asking a series of questions. Perhaps he should asl: one at a time. He is also attempting to make a little speech in between each question. MR. NEARY: Would the - all right, go ahead. MR.

HICKMAN: The honourable the Premier~ and I know this comes as a shock to the honourable gentleman opposite,subscribes to the view that Newfoundland does not begin and end in the city of St. John's. He is in Botwood and is now returning to St. John's. Ile is e.n route. MR. NEARY: there? MR. HICKMAN: Will he be meeting with Price Newfoundland when he is out I am not aware, Mr.

Speaker, of any proposed meetinr; or any request of meeting on the part of Price Brothers nor has it been any indication to me by Price or by Labrador Linerhoard Mill that there will be any layoffs, permanent layoffs in these industries as a result of the softening of the market. Bowaters in their announcement indicated yesterday that some of their casual labourers may not he rehired. MR.NEARY: Well, Mr.Speaker, the minister probably did not get my most important question of all. MR. HICKMAN : I did. 566 :$

M/lv 1, 1975. Tape 1950 RH - 3 !TR. NF.ARY: ----- Is there any liaison between the government and these companies other than just the manager picking up his phone and calling the minister saying, look, we are going to close down the mill for a couple of weeks . Is there any ongoing discussions? Is there any concern at all on the part of the government or are they just throwing up their arms in defeat? MR. HICKMAN: I am not going to answer it. MR. NF.ARY: No. UR. SPEAKFR: The honourable Member for Hermitage. MR. SU1NONS: Mr. Speaker, - six - goodness gracious.

I have to try and get a - I am just thinking out loud now. I will have to get a question for a minister who is here. There is only what? six and a half ministers in the House at the moment. That is all the Cabinet. MR. SPEAKER: ~m.. SinMONS: Order, please! I have a question, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of - AN HONOURABLE l'mMBER: Inaudi1'1e. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! J!P.,_._ ~!!!MON~:_ Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation. I am wondering if the minister would confirm whether his department has contracted for a design for the Conne River Causeway? MR. SPF.AKER : ----- -- llR.

ROUSSEAU: ------- The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. No, I do not think so. They are still at,as I understand it and I have to check with the honourable the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs , and just see where the status is with that and the North West River Bridge. "t-!R. SU1MONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: Now, I was not referring to any negotiations that mip.ht be going on with Ottawa which would involve Intergovernmental Affairs. I was - the question really for the minister again, Mr.

Speaker, was has the department contracted with any outside firm to do the design on the bridge? It is my under­ standing that this is the case and I wonder if he would be in a

}lay 1, 1975. Tape 1950 position to confirm it or check into it. MR. ROUSSEAU: I know that we have a request before . rlorthe.rn and Indian Affairs. As far I know, no. It has not heen contracted but I will have to take that and cl-iecl~ it out. As far as I ],now not. P.ll - ~

May 1, 1975 MR. SIMMONS: Tape no. 1951 Page 1 - mw Mr. Speaker, perhaps it is early in the morning. I am not talking about a contract for the job but for the design on the job. Has the minister's department contracted the design of the bridge to an outside finn? I repeatl it is my understanding that his department has, and I have it on pretty good authority. Would he check it out or can he comment on it? MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes, I will check it out. The only reason I am saying that I do not know is I have asked them to move on these two items, you know .. so it is possible that they have done that. I do not know.

I will check it out and let the member know. But I have asked them with all due speed to get on both the Conne River bridge and the North West River bridge. I know there has been correspondence gone to the Hon. Judd . Buchanan looking for some funds to assist on a federal level. And I have asked him to expedite that. In the meantime we are looking into the possibility of a ferry service and that could well have been done. I really do not know. All I know is what I told the officials and possibly it has been done. I will check it out and undertake to bring the reply back to the honourable member. MR.

SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. B. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I have a questinn for the Minister of Education, Sir. Is the minister aware of the remarks of the St. John's Deputy Mayor concerning a letter sent to City Council by the> St. John's School Tax Authority in which letter was indicated that the St. John's School Tax Authority was less than prepared to operate at the present time? Could the minister inform the House what steps he is taking or his department is taking to train or educate or give some guidance to the St.

John's School Tax Authority in order that they can operate as efficiently and as smoothly as possible. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Education, HON. G. OTTENHEIMER (Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, actually I am not aware of the contents of the letter but in a general area that the honourable gentleman has referred to, we do have an Inter.., Departmental Committee of Education, Finance, Municipal Affairs and Justice which has met on 5660

May 1, 1975 Tape no. 1951 Page 2 - row a number of occasions with the School Tax Authority and which is doing so on a regular basis. They have met several times,and they meet on a regular basis with representatives of those four departments and of the School Tax Authority. MR. F. ROWE: A suppleme~tary. Could the minister be a little more specific, Sir, because obviously there has been a real boo-boo in this particular case?

Could the minister indicate how many people are on the School T>?.x Authority and what the deadline irl for this School Tax Authority to go into operation ,md whether he feels the Authority will be ready to go into operation at the date it is intended to go into operation? Could he be a little bit more specific. I realize that there are all sorts of committees set up. But what are these committees actually doing in view of the boo-boo that has just happened: MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, it certainly should be fairly evident what the committee is doing.

Go.vernment personnel is composed of a representative of the Department of Justice 1 and that person is a lawyer who gives legal advice required,and from the Depar~ment of Finance there is a person knowledgeable in finance,and the Deputy Minister of Education, who would have an overall knowledge of school board operations and school tax authority operations throughout the Province and they meet with a coumittee of three or four from the St.

John's School Tax Authority to ad1d.se or assist the School Tax Authority :ln any matters in which they need such advice or assistance, The date that it is proposed to be operative is July 1. The ·aumber of members of the School Tax Authority I do not recall offhand, but there are several because they would represent the school boards and incorporated ereas. It could well be fourteen or fifteen but I do not know the number of members of the Tax Authority offhand. Jt..!R. F. ROWE: A supplementarJ, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister indicate to the House what the Harris Report had to say, the Dr.

Harris Report on Education and lh:iman Resources, had to say with respect to the setting up of School Tax Authorities in the Province? MR, OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, you know, specifically, what it might have had to say, Y do not actually recall specifically. I do not recall what it had to say. 5661

May 1, 1975 Tape no. 1951 l'age 3 - mw MR. P', ROWE: A supple111entary • Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that the Minister of Mun:lcipal Affairs and Housing has stated quite clearly that some councils in municipalities throughout the Province have not been ready to operate efficiently and administer efficiently and t\ley have not had sufficient guidance and education, would not the .same thing bold true for School Tax Authorities in this Province that have to levy taxes on our people 1and in th.is case an unfair tax? MR. OTTENHEIMER: I alil not sure I understand• really• the gist of the question. _!Ill. F.

ROWE: Does the same arg1Aent for premature setting up of councils hold true for the premature setting up of School Tax Authorities? :MR. l.)TTENHE:nmR: If the honourable gentleman is asking me with respect to the St, JohA I s School Tax Authority• whether I feel that it is premature that it be s.et up, ray answer would be,no, I do not feel that it is. 566i:!

May 1, 1975 Tape Ne. 1952 NM - 1 MR. ROWE: A elJllplemeutary, Mr. Speaker, is the 11:overnment giving any consideration whatsoever to doubling or increasinr, the size of the School Tax Authority in St. John's in view of the very strong reaction of the City Counci11 MR, lilCKMAN! One man - tchey need gu:l.dance, MR. ROWE! What are you - MR. OTTENHEIMER: AB I say - MR.. ROWE : Let the Minister - MR. OTIENHEIMER!

I do not know if the honourable gentleman is asking ©e to comment specifically on this letter of the Deputy Mayor which I have not seen but if it is of doubling the membership of the School Tax Authority, I myself do not see that doubling the membership, I mean the membership in School Tax Authorities is go·yerned by statutes, provisions are made for representatives of school boards within incorporated areas.

There has never been any request to me or to the department that doubling or tripling or having or making any numerical operation, any numerical change in the composition would be of any benefit, so we certainly have not considered it. We have never been asked to or - it is set up as provided by statute. There has never been any request of altering that. MR. ROWE: Well a further supplementary• Am I to understand, Mr.

Speaker, that the minister is not giving any consideration to increasing the size of the School Tax Authority, and am I to further understand that he is not considering any specific educational or guidance programmes to assist the School Tax Authority! Sir, this is going to be a complete shambles, &s we predicted. a big shambles. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr, Speaker, on a point of order, he has asked a question,and all he is allowed to do is ask a question and not to debate the matter. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: The honourable member for St.

Barbe North was getting into a debate,in expressing an opinion rather than asking a question. MR. O'ITENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, the problem was - MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Education wishes to answer the question? 556~

May 1, 1975 Tape No. 1952 NM - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Right. It was not an informed opinion, if it had been an informed one certainly we would have been pleased to have a certain stretching of the rules. Two points, have we considered increasing the numbers - no we have not. We have not ~een asked to, we have never been requested to. Nobody has ever suggested it. It eminates now, to the best of my knowledge, from the honourable gentleman opposite. We have never been requested to increase the number so obviously we have not considered it.

We do not consider all kinds of hypothetical things, you know,double it, triple it, quadruple it, cut it in half, cut it in an eighth. We would be doing nothing but going around considering all kinds of hypothetical numerical operations. No, we have not considered it. We have never been requested to. On the second point - what are we doing in terms of guidance and assistance to the school tax authorities-we have a school finance officer who is available to all school tax authorities, who works at that full time and long associated with him, and that is Mr.

Heffernan, associated with him in that work is the gentleman who fills the role of Chief Superintendent, Mr. Max Riggs, extremely capable, knowledgeable person. These two and the Deputy Minister are in quite close touch with all the School Tax Authorities. We meet with them several times a year. We are available any time at their request and I think it is quite obvious, Mr. Speaker, that, yes,the Department of Education and its senior officials, such as Mr. Roebothan, Mr. Riggs and others are available too and in quite close touch with the various school tax authorities. MR. ROWE: Supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, Would the minister undertake to lay upon the table of this House what the Dr. Harris' Report has to say, if anything, with respect to school tax authorities in this Province or in this City and would he further undertake, as was promised by the minister in the last session, to table that Harris Report, and I have a definite commitment from the minister in that regard please, Sir? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I have already informed the honourable gentleman that before the session concludes - MR. ROWE: You said that the last time. 56i0

May l , 1975 Tape No. 1952 NM - 3 HR, SPEAKER: Order , please! MR. OTTENJraIMER: I am seying it nm, chat before i:: coric1.ude s I will certainly p rovide him with a copy t hereof , MR. SPBPJ::ER: The hor.ourabl e Member for !.aLudor South. MR. MARTIN: A question , Mr . Spea ker, in tht abeence of tbe Mimst e-c of Mlilnpowar and Indust rial Rtleti.ona I think 1 should probably direct a o.uastion to the Mini ster of Transportati on .md Conmtunication s, as !.ebrador rpolr.estna n in t be Cabine t .

I am wonde r !ng wi::h the star: up of the Gull I s laT!d Proje ct j'1S t abou t upon •.ts • i f t..'le mini ster could e.~l.ain to t he llouae witat ste-ps me goveTil!lter.t hiwa t aken at t his point to ensure that the hiring prac t ices of t h e contra c t ors involved in th:3t proj ec ~ aad associated constructio n, what are the hi.ring practices wbi ~h will prote c t the i nterest of local p~ople so t.'lat the; do not start immediately imporUng lab our from outside o f your lor.a l area .

1975 Tape 1953 (Morn '.!lg) PK - 1 1m. SPF./\KJm: --- - - -·------- ·- The Hon. Minister of Transportation and Cmmnunications. tm. ROUS SF AU: ··------ Mr. Speaker, if you do not mind, first I would like to make just a short suggestion, and then maybe the lUnister of !'!ines and Energy could ans~r£ r the question.

I think I stood in the !louse on a numher of occasions and as a matter of principle statPrl mv feeling on that matter, and I would hope certainly that the neople in the honourable memb~r's district and other people alonp the r.oast of Labrador and so on who would like to secure work on that site will certainly be given first preference. As I said bPfore "'e have waited on other areas around the Province where johs have not been available to people in Labrador because the local area was given first crack at it, and we accept that, not like it, l->ut it had to he accepted really.

And I think I stood in this House on a numhPr of occasions on that matter of principle in the supply of lahour, materials, my position on itJ and my position in respect to how I Pould hrin!!; it before government. But I think maybe the Jlon. MinistPr of ~fines and Energy might be able to give you more det,i.iJ. The l!on. Member for llell Island. !1L ilF.AP.Y: . - _________ , '1r.

SpeakPr, I wonder if the Actinp, President cf Tre,asurv nC'ard trnuld care to comment on a public statement made by hi.s colleapue thf' ~1inister of Manpot-~er and Industrial 'R.elations concerninp the strike of emnloyees of the Newfoundland Liquor r.ornoration inasmuch as the minister stated publicly that they will set the precedent for negotiations with all of the other groups. '•loulrl the minjster care to comment on that? lt seems to have caused quite, a hit of stir, ouite a bit of controversy. 'IP.. SPEAKJ;:ll: The Hon. Minister of Hines and Energy. MR. RARRY: Mr. Speal-:er, the F!on.

Hinister of Manpower by the looJ,- on hiR face is the first time he ever heard the statement. I ha<l heard 1t - >-TR. ~IAYNARD: When <lid you hear that? ~:. · llARRY: - I had heard certair rumours - MR.. NfARY: Inaudible. ~fR. llARRY: - I had heard certain rumours to the same affect as 567l

May 1, 1975 Tape 1953 (Morning) being attributed to - that statement bein~ attributed to memhers of government. I believe Mr. Peddle referred to - AN HON. MEMBER: No. PK - 2 No. I am sorry. One of the members of the negotiating committee referred to the fact that it may have been the Premier who stated it. I personally have not heard any statement to that affect. Rut, Mr.

Speaker, to clarify the matter,I think, here it's a matter of balance, While on the one hand government intends to do everythini,; possihle to treat each bargaini•,g unit on its own merits and to look at the needs and the situation with respect to the members of each bargaining unit, on the other hand it has to be recognized~and both sides realize,that the settlement in one dispute will hear some relationship to the eventual settlement in a later dispute, it will have some affect on the level of settlement in later disputes.

And I think that is the balance that we have got to take, as far as possible look at the needs of the individuals in each bargaining unit on their own merits. But we also~as a matter of common sense and practical realities have to realize that the level of settlement in one dispute bears some relation or will have some affect on the level of settlement in another. MR. NF..ARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Is the minister saying that to settle this strike would settle all other contract negotiations, is that what the minister is saying? MR. BARRY: No. MR.

SIMMONS: He is saying they are playing one ar,ainst the other. MR. BM~RY: Mr. Speaker, AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. Ml'!.. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, that question hardly deserves an answer . I a111 not sure - AN HON. MEMBER: MR, SPEAKER: MR., BARRY: AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. Order, please! - I am not ~ure if the honoura~le is just - Inaudible.

.'fav 1, 1975 MR. SPEAKER: "!R. RARRY: Tape 1953 (Morning' PK - 3 Order, please! - I am not sure if the honourable member is just dense or just mischievous. AN HON. MEMBER: The Leader is dense. -· - ~IR. NEARY: MR. RARRV: ~. NFARY: ------- i'R. S l' PAIO';l! : MR. RARRY: MR. NF..ARY: "W" SPF.AKF.R: ~. NF.ARY: ~. SPF.AKl'R: There was nothing - I am not stunned - - in any statements made by me - - I am not stunned like the mintster. Order, please! There was nothing - He cannot even ne5otiate with 200 employees. Order, please! How stunned can you get? Order, please! The Hon.

Member for Bell Island asked a question of the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy, and the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energ y - AN ITON. ME!IBER : Inaudible. HR • SPEAKF.ll : Order, nlease! - The Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy was attempting to answer the question. I would suggest that if a member asks a question then he should let the minister answer it in silence. While he may not agree with the answer then it ~till does not give him the right to interject. MR. NEARY: He cannot be rude and ignorant and insulting, Sir. Your Honour ruled on that the other day. MR. SIMMONS: MR. JlARRY: "1R .

SPF.AKr.R : For that side. Come on now1 do not get so excited, Order, please! Order, please! The Chair heard a remar ~ made hy the Ron. Member for Hermitage that the day made a ruling some days ago in favour of that side over there. Now the Chair certainly does not intend to take that sort of a remark from any honourable member and would request the Hon. Member for Hermitage to withdraw that comment. f'!< JlON. MF.l!RER: Withdra w! Withdraw! MR. SIMMONS: Mr . Speaker, I think I am entitled to explain, I was in a similar situation the other day and I was told not to 567 ~~

May 1, 1975 Tape 1953 (?fuming) PK - 4 bait that side, I distinctly said just now in response to a comment by mv colleague that the ruling had been made for that side. That is the way it happened. Somebody who I had baited, I was told not to bait that oerson. I now ask Mr. Speaker to instruct the Minister cf Mines and Energy not go baiting my colleague. If there is anything unparliamentary in what I said 567b

May 1, 1975 MR. SIMMONS, Tape no. 1954 Page 1 - mw I certainly withdraw without qualification. But he has not the right to bait my colleague, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! But he is the master of - - any more than I do not have the right. Order, please! Honourable members certainly do not have the right to make comments which are unparliamentary. The Chair did aek 1and the Hon. Member for Hermitage did withdraw the remarks he made. The Chair certainly understood that he was challenging the previous ruling made by the Chair. MR. BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaker - MR. SIMMONS: No, Mr. Speaker, on a point of personal privilege. Hr. Speaker, can have what

interpretations he would like on the matter but I want it clearly understood that I was not questioning Mr. Speaker's ruling. I was pointing out, Mr. Speaker, I was simply pointing oµt that in as much as I was not allowed to bait someone the other day and was instructed to discontinue doing so in a similar fashion I believe it is fair to ask Mr. Speaker to instruct the Minister of Mines and Energy not to bait anybody as well. I think that is a fair request, Mr. Speaker. That is not questioning the Speaker's ruling. MR. BARRY: Sit down! Sit down! ICT. NEARY: It is a simple - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: HR. BARRY: MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: (Inaudible). Sit down! Sit down! (Inaudible). Order, please! The Hon. Member for Hermitage now on two or three occasions has gotten up after the Chair has made a ruling and said that he is not challenging the ruling of the Chair. Now the Chair is certainly getting the opinion that the member is indirectly challenging the ruling of the Chair and the Chair is certainly willing to agree 567U

May 1, 1975 Tape no. 1954 Page 2 - mw that what is fair for one side is fair for the other with regard to bait:lllg any honourable member. The Hon. Member for Labrador South. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the minister is now answering my question. MR. BARRY: I will just answer the question. Mr.

Speaker, I repeat what I said that on the one hand we are attempting to look at the merits of each bargaining unit's position and on the other hand we are realizing, as members of the bargaining unit realize, as members of the geu~ral public realize, that the settlement in one dispute will have a certain affect on settlements in later disputes. Now if the Hon, Member for Bell Island reads into that that I am saying that the decision here is going to be the decision for all time and all of the bargaining units I submit, Mr. Speaker, let us let the people ask whether that is a reasonable

interpretation of my remarks. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair had recognized the Hon, Member for Labrador South and yielded for the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy to answer the previous question. So the Chair will now recognize the Hon. Member for Labrador South and that will be the end to the question period. MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This really relates to the first question I put to the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. It is directed to the Hon. Miniater .:,f Mines and Energy.

I wonder if he would care to answer the previous question. MR. Sl"EAKER: The Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: The policy of our government with respect to hiring for the Lower Churchill project is the same &s the policy with respect to government business generally,and that is that we believe, and we request that anybody doing business with the government,for the government give preference to Newfoundland employment, to Newfoundland workers first, give preference tc Newfoundland products and Newfoundland business where these are competitive in terms of price 1delivery and quality and this gets,

May 1, 1975 Tape no. 1954 Page 3 - mw of course, into the point raised in the question yesterday with respect to the water bombers,for example. The lowest tender is not necessarily the lowest cost. I think that is a factor that has to be kept in mind. If a group are not completely qualified either to do the job as it should be done or to do it within a certain period of time then you have to realize that it is going to increase your cost if this is the case.

But within certain limitations such as that it is our policy to see that wherever possible Newfoundlanders and people of Labrador, whe~e it is a Labrador project,or the people of Bay D'Espoir in the case of the Bay D'Espoir expansion, that local people on the scene are given an opportunity to get whatever jobs are available. If other jobs are needed then or other workers are needed or other business is needed, then you go outside the local area.

But I think it is generally accepted right around the Province, right across the Province that people itAhe local area where a job is being done, within limits, that does not mean that nobody comes in from outside,but within limits that you recognize that the people in the local areas should have an opportunity to get involved in the job as much as possible and we try and see that that is done.

I might also add that I have asked Newfoundland Hydro to prepare a presentation to give to the people on both sides of the Straits to indicate to them just what is likely to be the consequences of various actions by the Corporation in the development of the Lower Churchill and to give the people an opportunity to plan for what is happening. MR. MARTIN: I have a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 567d

May l, 1975 Tape 1955 (morning) IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: Okay. I will allow one supplementary for the Member for Labrador South. MR. MARTIN: The original question was what steps the government have taken to ensure - is there any machinery set up within the administratjon to allow local people to apply for these johs? The practice has heen that contractors w:Ul come in with their total crew. I am wondering if anything has been taken iTI to consideration w:I th regard to setting up local administrative offices? MR. BARRY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, there are t 'ne T,)Osi..tions in the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations, I believe - ~y colleague can correct me - where we take in inquiries or applications from people all around the Province with respect to their interest in getting involved in certain types of activity. So, Manpower and Industrial Relations will be involved. There is also the - is it the Federal­ Provincial Manpower Committee. I believe works through - _AN HONOURABLE ME}1BER: The Joint Federal-Provincial Manpower Commi.ttee.

MR, BARRY: The Joint Federal-Provincial Manpower Cammi ttee that works through the Minister of Industrial Relations and also through Canada Manpower. There is also the fact that we have issued instructions to Newfoundland Hydro as to how to proceed and how to instruct their contractors to proceed, Apart from that we do not have any fonaal mechanism, but in my opinion this,if all parties involved attempt to apply the policy in the spirit that it is intenaed, s~ould go a long way towards meeting the concerns of the honourable Member for Labrador South.

ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion of the honourable the Minister of Industrial Deve lopment a bill, "An Act To Establish The Gander Development Corporatior,," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Memorial University (Pensions) Act," MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education. 1'1R.. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, this is a quite self - explanatory amendment to the Memorial University (Pensions) Act. Es•entially what it is is this; 567~

May 1, 1975 Tape 1955 (morning) IB-2 it puts the authority with respect to a pension for the president in the university rather than in the government. Honourable members will recall that the previous president of the university wa appointed by the government,not by the Board of Regents,and his pension was therefore a matter of agreement between the government and the president. That actual legislation, the University Act was amended a couple of years ago whereby the appointment of the president is made by the Boards of Regents.

What this bill does is to make the pension for the president a matter of negotiation between the university and the president. It becomes a university matter rather than a government matter. It also provides that where the pension is awarded on a contributory basis, it will be paid out of the pension fund of the university. Essentially that would be where a person was appointed president who has previously been at that same university and has been within the pension scheme of the university.

It provides that if the contributory provisions are different than the pension fund~ as paid out of current revenue and what that would provide for is the continuancey of a person appointed president of the university who had been at the university either previously or immediately previously who could have been employed somewhere else. So, he would not in fact have had a pension plan at the university previous to his appointment as president.

Those two contingencies are provided for where a person would be appointed who was previously at the university and has been in their riension scheme,or a person who could be appointed president of the university who had not heen previously been at that university. The overall factor is putting the provieion, the pension provision as a matter of negotiation between the university, the Board of Regents,and the president rather than the government. r· C ', O .J ':) u

May 1, 1975 Tape 1956 RH - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. MR. OTTENHEIMER: I should add, maybe I just should add. Well, that is clear in the explanatory note anyway that this is not retroactive. It does not alter the position of the fomer President who, of course, was appointed by the government and whose pension was not a matter agreed upon between the University and the President but between the government and the President. It is for the present and future Presidents. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, the honourable the minister just answered the first question.

Sir ,I this seems to be nothing more than a piece of tidying up legislation to keep it in line with the legislation that was bro~ght in last year whereby the President of our University will henceforth be appointed by the University itself with a Board of Regents. So it only seems reasonable that any pension awarded to s~ch a President would be administered by the University. Sir, I do not know if this is quite in order and I I do not know whether the minister would like to comment on it in a kind of a general way. I never had an opportunity through legislation up to this point to ask this kind of a question.

If the minister feels like answering it now, well,fine and dandy. If it is out of order I guess it is out of order. But I would like for the minister to comment just generally on this whole business of pensions with respect to teachers' pensions working with the NTA,and teachers, say, at the University or professors at the University and then pensions in other government services, the transferability of these types of pensions.

If you move from a teaching position to a university position to the civil service, or back and forth and so forth and s6 on. it seems that these individuals have a good chance of havini,; their pension plans completely, wiped out in some cases. I know in my atm I particular case the money that I had paid into a pension plan from 1960 co 1964 I c=o< =r get ay hands M iC. I c=ot even wiChdra• 55(Li

Pav 1, 1975. Tape 1956 a small fraction of it although legislation has come in since but it is not retroactive until that time. I was wondering if the minister and/or the government have given any consideration to making these kinds of pension plans more transferable,if that is the right expression,so that people who are in the reneral RH - 2 area of education and the public service can move around in these different areas,whether it be politics or the civil service or the university or the vocational school or the College of Trades and Technology or the schools themselves.

If there have been any effort on the part of this administration to try to make those pensions transferable or lock them or link them together in such a way that the individual does not suffer because he is probably trying to get a better job opportunity or he is going into an area, well, a s .chool for the blind, a school for the deaf and this sort of a thing. I think I need go no further in this question. I think the minister gets the point of the question and I would appreciate an answer to that. MR. SPI\AKER : The honourable Minister of Education. MR. OTTENlIEillER: }Ir.

Speaker, as I recall it there il'l transfer- ahility now between the civil service and the teaching profesion, one way or the other. There is that transferability. With respect to the University and the government service I do not think there :i.s. I mean 1 there is not on a universal basis. Between the civil service and the teaching profession there is. Certainly, in my opinion and I think it would he the government's opinion too, that the concept of overall transferability of overall portability is a very valid one.

There is no transferability now, for example, from teachinp, to service in the provincial le~islature or the federal House of Commons. I think that that is unfortunate and that that should he rectified. I can say,and I am sure honourable members realize this, it is an extremely complex area, extremely complex because of differences in rates and tenure, numerous matters. 5 C i,l 'I Q IJ t~

May 1. 1975. Tape 1956 RR - 3 But there is in fact a pension committee working on these verv matters referred to by the honourable gentleman and I would hope that sane at least of what could be called anomalies would be able to be rectified in the near future. MR. ROWE: (First

part inaudible) because my colleagues and myself do support this particular piece of - MR. SPEAKER: Order• please! Order, please! The minister in speaking has finished the debate. Maybe the Chair was a little negligent in not saying that if the honourable minister speaks now he closes the debate but indeed he has. If by leave the Chair certainly is willing to hear the honourable member. Agreed? Agreed. MR. ROWE: I IDl1St say, Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. That slipped my mind as well.

Sir, just in closing, I would just simply request that the minister put the various secretariats, or what have you 1into action and try to come up with something within the year on thi.s whole business of trying to figure out a strategy or formula whereby you can have transferability with respect to pension funds. Thi.a involves health, sickness, and disability and all this kind of thing as well sometimes.

I realize it is very complex but I think what we are doing is we are tying our people down into certain jobs where they would not necessarily like to be and where they are not necessarily making the greatest contribution. I know, for example, of many teachers who would love, would like to get into the political arena and realizing the insecurity of it and the problem with the pension and going back, and the salary, not to mention anything else, we are going to lose people who could make a great contribution to the economy, culture, anything else of our Province.

So I would simply request that the minister almost set up a special task force. Oh! I bad better not follow in that trap not another one. No, take a part of one of the task forces, Sir, r;e:,,j . ..,_l ~JU

Tape 1956 and get to work on this one immediately and see if some formula cannot be derived for the purposes of making pensions more transferable. RH - 4 On motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Memorial University Pensions Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. On motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Education(Teacher Training)Act." ~'R. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, just a couple of first preliminary remarks in introducing this bill are also operative for the next one I will be introducing. So, the preliminary remarks will be and that is that this bill and the succeeding one are the result of consultation meetings and recommendations through the General Advisory CollD!littee which is made up of the Department of Education, the University, the XTJ\. the church authorities, the Federation of School Boards and these are r>retty much tidyinf? up, housekeeping legislation, not of a controversial nature. So that is true of this one and the one to succeed.

Now this particular one, hill (26) will do essentially three things. Number one, there is a Teachers' Certification Col!llllittee which to date is made up of representatives of the Department of r.ducation. the Denominational Educational Cornnittees, Memorial Universitv of Newfoundland and the Newfoundland Teachers' Association. This will provide for the addition to that committee of two representa­ tives of the Newfoundland Federation of School Boards. They are now quite active and of course a fairly recent organization.

So this will provide for the representation, membership on the Certification Committee of the Federation of School Hoards, It will secondly permit the Certification Committee which is, of course,the Committee which certifies, not very frequently, I suppose decertifies or suspends the certificate for license of a teacher. It w:'-11 perl'lit this Comr.iittee to suspend the certificate or license of a 56U4

May 1, 1975. Tape 1956 teacher who terminates his contract with a school board other than as required by the collective agree ment. If a teacher terminates in a way other than required by the collective 11greement whic h is essentially three months notice, then the Certification Committee would have the right to suspend his teaching certificate . This , I should point out, is RH - S

May 1, 1975 Tape no. 1957 Page 1 - 111W agreed to by the Federation, by the N.T.A. and obviously there is a collective agreement entered into by both parties and what it requires is a three month leave of absence, three months notice for termination. And finally, a totally housekeeping thing, whereby the department is authorized to withhold from a teacher's salary any money due to the department by a teacher whose certificate may have been suspended.

A teacher's certificate is suspended because he has terminated otherwise than is provided for in the collective agreement and if he owes money to the Department of Education, the Department of Education is authorized to withhold from his salary any money that might be due, It could be, perhaps, money owed to the Department of Education book store, something like that. It could conceivably be an overpayment. It would be more likely, perhaps, a purchase made for school supplies by a teacher and perhaps not paid for.

They are the three things which this bill does, and I point out that these are matters which are a recommendation of all groups concerned. I move second reading. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for St, Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, the first main point in this particular bill is one that obviously we all welcome having two representatives or alternatives 1 or alternates I should say, members, on the Teachers Certification Committee,which is reasonable. As the minister indicated the Federation of School Boards is a very active group and in fact a vociferous group at the present time.

And it is only right that they should have a representative on the Teachers Certification Conunittee. Sir, the second point which permits the committee to suspend the certificate or licence of a teacher who having contracted to teach with a school board terminates the contract without giving to the board the notice required by the collective agreement made between Her Majesty the Queen in right of Newfoundland and the Federation of School Boards of Newfoundland and the Newfoundland Teachers'Association 7 Sir, this is one that still disturbs me. Now I can see the reason for it, and I can see the reason against it.

Probably that is not putting it quite the right way, 5680

Play 1. 1975 Tape no. 1957 Page 2 - mw because there are two things that we have to look at here. NU111ber one, let us just take a hypothetical case. A teacher, a young u:iiversity gradua ·te, for instance, leaving the uni•l'ersity this coming Spring and, of course, by this time he would have had a nU111ber of applications out to a n\Dllber of school boards throughout the Province. Now as the minister very well knows we got a teacher supply problem in this Province, all over the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador we have a teacher shortage - AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. F.

ROWE: We have overcrowded classroolllS - MR. ROUSSF.AU: (Inaudible), MR. F. ROWE: No. If the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications would listen he would understand exactly what I am talking about, That is probably a generalization - Mil. NEARY: Be is the expert on it. MR. F. ROWE: - where you can find many exceptions to. Because in certain areas of the Province like obviously St.

John's, Grand Falls, Gander, Corner Brook and other larger centres like Marystown, Labrador, the Goose Bay area, you have hundreds or probably thousands of applications coming into these school boards from teachers wanting to teach in these particular areas. And you have an example, for instance, up in Flowers Cove and Bird Cove and Plmn Point and Green Island Cove, these are the ones I am familiar with obviously because they are in my district, where teachers had to be imported.

Many of the teachers up there.I would go so far as to say that half of the teachers - no, I will not be pinned down - let us put it this way. A large percentage of the teachers teaching in the very rural district of St, Barbe North,and that is only one example of many districts, are American teachers, Indian teachers, teachers from Trinidad, teachers from Pakistan, from the Philippines, and there is nothing wrong with that, but what I am pointing out is that there are areas of our Province where Newfoundlanders will not go to teach, NewfolDldland teachers.

And there are other areas where they are scraping and crawling, a.lm.ost. l:L~e the evacuation of Viet N&:111, they are trying to get into these schools . Now what does all this mean? This means that the 5681

May 1, 1975 Tape no. 1957 Page 3 - mw school boards themselves realize, some school boards realize the position they are in . They realize that they have schools that are attractive to certain teachers, and they realize that they will get a hundred or so applications, and they further realize that they can hang her down to the eleventh hour, the school boards can hang her down to the eleventh hour and if they need five teachers they will pick the cream of the crop from say those one hundred applications. Now by this time, Sir, the other ninety-five per cent or so are panicky. They do not know what to do.

Now the question I am agking is, although obviously we can see the reason for giving the right to suspend without giving this three months notice - I mean that is a necessity under the collective bargaining agreement, right? That is absolutely necessary. What I am asking the Minister of Education to indicate to the House, Sir, is what is ~eing done to protect the teachers, because this is to protect the boards,obviously,and indirectly the government, I suppose, and D.E.C.s, but what is being done to protect the teachers? You know, what is the end point?

At what point must the school board inform an applicant whether or not he or she will be hired on for the forthcoming year? This is one thing that has always concerned me. You know, protection of the board on the one hand and protection of the teacher on the other. I think that is about all. Obviously the last

part 1 owing money,follows reasonably more so than what motivated this. MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable minister speaks now he closes the debate. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr, Speaker, I realize the matters or difficulties referred to by the Hon. Member for St. Barbe North. What I would say is this that the teachers and the boards, through the collective agreement, decide upon a number of matters, including things such as the period of notice a teacher should give to resign. And this essentially is binding on the teachers and the boards and is the protection of the teachers and the protection of the boards.

What we are doing, what the House is being asked to do is, if you wish, to give the protection to the pupil,if you wish, to make the legal requirement

May I, 1975 Tape no. !S::,7 'Page 4 - w,; that what is agreed to in the collectiv~ agreement with respect tc whatever period of notification is necessary for a teacher to resign that that is

hn y I , l 'l 75 Tape 1~58 (morning) a legal requirement by statute as well as one under the collective ar,reemcnt. The period is now three months. Of course, it could be less. Jt could he more. Any matters that the Teacher's Association or school boards wished in for the protection of their own interests IB-1 would obviously he a negotiated matter. This will not require, this act will not require any specific time for resignation but will require that the time agreed to and signed in the collective agreement be recognized hy the teachers.

I suppose the simplest way of putting it is that the collective agreement protects the teachers anc the boards and through statute making it necessary that the provisions of that collective agreement are here given the sanction of statute as well, and I suppose in a sense one could say that the legislature is there protecting the student body. I move second reading. On motion a hill, "An Act Further To Amend The Education (Teacher Training) Act, " read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave.

Motion seconcl reading of a hill, "An Act Further To Amend The Schools Act.'' HR . SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education. 'IR . OTTP.NllEHIER : Mr. Speaker, the preliminary remarks I made on the previous bill are operative here. This will do four things. One refers to school board membership. What it does is that when the time comes for elections, all positions shall be '9'acant. That is what it means. Let us say that X resigns and Y is appointed. Ile is appointed one year. The elections and the appointments are usually for four years.

Somebody could resign or move out one or two years before the next election comes. This will see that he does not hold office then for four years. When the election comes all positions are vacant. The law requires that at least one-third be elected. There are many boards with more than one-third elected. There are those who feel, and I must say I am in general sympathy that there should be a larger percentage elected, and perhaps the majority, and indeed perhaps in time all.

May l, 1975 Tape 1958 (morning) IB-2 There is, of course, then the other side of the coin. As memoers might know, that when we did have the elections last year in many areas there was a difficulty in getting people to run. That was a pr~blem as well. It may well have been because it was the first time. Jt may well have been also because the procedures were somewhat cornplicared. Certainly before the next election to the school boards would come that would not be in for more than two years. It is our intention to greatly simplify the process.

I certainly do not think that, you know, one needs the voters lists and going through all of the formalities and rigidities of a provincial election for school beard membership. I think the thing can be done, you know, on an honor system. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Why not have it the same time you are having a provincial election? MR. OTTENREIMER: You could.· You see school board elections come every four years, but a provincial election could come, you know, in less than four years. You know, we had one within several months in 1971-1972. You know, in 1971-1972 we had provincial elections within several months.

Plus if it were, you know, a system as in the United States where the elections come in the various states at various times and everybody knows on the day they were elected when the next election is coming, I think it would probably be a very good idea. But, under our system - MR, NEARY: How about when you are having the municipal elections? They are all the same time. MR. OTTENHEIMER: The municipal elections are all the same time. That is certainly a possibility, and one which I think makes sense. I would certainly be pleased to look into that. I think that makes sense. MR. NEARY: Very good.

Thank you very much, Sir. MR. OTTENHEIMER: We always listen to good suggestions. Y.P. NEARY: I am always making positive, constructive - MR. O'ITENHEIMER: Well, when the honourable gentleman does, I certainly take ~ote of them. I think that was a good one. So, that is the first thing the bill does. The second thing is quite technical. Up until the passage of this act, teachers are paid twelve times a year. Well, no, they are paid actually every two "Weelcs, but it is ba~ed or. per month. Now,

May 1, 1975 Tape 1958 (morning) IB-3 what has happened up to now is that for ten months the board send them the checks and for two months the Department of Education does. What this does is that for the whole period of twelve months it is the boards which send them the checks. It is an area of housekeeping matter. The third thing the bill dors would authorize as the counting of a teachinr day, a day in which a teacher has acted on an arbitration board, an arbitration board coming from the collective agreement.

So, if under the collective agreement the matter goes to arbitration, the teacher has to spend a day or several on that arbitration board, he is not penalized financially because of that. The fourth thing it does, it will no longer be mandatory or obligatory for a principal to convene a meeting of the staff at least one day before the commencement of school. Up until the passage of this act that was obligatory. In certain cases it was, if not impossible, it was extremely inconvenient and both the Teachers' Association and the schoo 1 boards are in agreement there. This does not f•rohibit them from doing it.

They could do it one day ahead. They can do it a few days ahead. They can do it on the weekend after school starts. But, it is no longer legally obligatory in every case in every school for every principal to convene a one day meeting before the opening of school. And this essentially because in certain instances it was felt that that kind of professional review or meeting could better be done, you know, maybe the Saturday after school opened or that type of thing. That is hasically what it does. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MJ'. O'T'TF.NHEIMER: Wait now.

AN FONOTJRABLE MEMBER: The first paragraph in the explanatory note. NF • OTTF.NHEI 'ER : Ri~ht, right, right. Yes, this authorizes the nepartment of Education to withhold from a paycheck to a teacher any money which might be owed by that teacher to the government. MR. NF.ARY: Why would they owe the government money? ~IR. ClTTENl1EIMER: Not that it is that common at all, but, I suppose, ,', there wi 11 probabl y be the instance where there will be more the possibility of that, would be a teacher again as in previous ordering 569t~

May 1, 1975 Tape 1958 (morning) something from the school supplies division . MR. NEARY: That is not a loan. MR. O'ITENHEIMER: No, no. MR. NEARY: Net a student loan. TB-4 _MR. O'ITENHEUIER: No, no, no. This has to do with - it could conceivably be an overpayment as well. A teacher could be inadvertently overpaid. This happens sometimes, especially in the first month or two. There can be an overpayment. Naturally that has to be recuperated. ~o, it could be an overpayment. It could be a purchase through the school supplies division of some books. I would say these would be the most likely instances. MR.

NEARY: There is no way that it includes loans, you know, student loans - MR. OTTENHEIMER: Under the Canada Student Loan Plan, no, no, no, no. Because there the money is not even owed to this government hut would be owed to a branch of an agency of the federal government. It tloes not refer to that. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Sir, the first part which the minister mentioned refers to school board membership.

The government is to be commended for bringing in legislation for requiring that one-third of the membership of the school hoard be elected and the other two-thirds be appointed, or in some cases part of that two-thirds in certain areas have been actually elected. Sir, I think the time has come now. Things in education sort of tend to evolve. You do not have revolutions in education. It is a sort of a slow process. A..""l HONOURABLE MEMBER: Like the Rouse of Assembly. MR. F. ROWE: Like the House of Assembly, Sir.

But, this seems to be the history of eduction,whether it is at the elementary, primary, secondary, or university or higher education level, thinF;S do not change rapidly. They tend to evolve very slowly. Such is the case, Sir, vith respect to membership of the school boards.

May 1, 1975 Tape No. 1959 NM - 1 MR. ROWE: And now we have reached the point in time in this Province where it should be required by law that one half, at least fifty per cent - AN H~N. MEMBER: Have not got one hundred per cent. MR. ROWE: Well there are reasons, My initial remarks were sort of meant to indicate that probably you know slap it in the law one hundred per cent however desired will tend to upset certain elements in the educational collllDUllity. And you, Jr.now might,cause more trouble that necessary and therefore, although I hate to sound conservative, gee whiz that is the last thing - SOME HON .

MEMBERS : Inaudible. MR . NEARY: He is being a real Tory, ultra Conservative now. MR. ROWE: But, Sir, however much one would like to say 1 throw in the one hundred per cent, one hundred per cent elected, however desirable that may be it would cause difficulties and in the field of education if the art of compromise was ever required as a strateizy this is one area where it is required and I know that from being a student, a teacher, and having had a father who was Minister of Education at one stage of the game. I used to browbeat him at home, why do you not do this, why do you not do that?

And then it was explained to me the different power groups in education, and how it is a compromjse, the things that satisfies most groups, to the satisfaction of most groups, is what is necessary and if ~ou do not po along with that general kind of a strategy you find yourself in one heck of a lot of trouble. It is as·simple as that. But, Sir - there is another reason apart from that, "Steve'~ you know - these puys are elected, the school board members - MR. NEARY: Dissension in the ranks. MR. ROWE: Vicious split, Sir, vicious - MR. SIMMONS: Socrates and Aristotle . MR.

ROHE: A lunch hour caucus we will have to have over this one. }IR. SIMMONS: Socrates and Aristotle, we will figure out who is - MR. ROWE: But there is another reason, Sir, that we should not demand one

May 1, 1975 Tape No. 1959 NM - 2 hundred per cent elected,you know, After all these people are - well you could go for or against it, it is not really an argument I suppose, but these people are not paid and one wonders, one raises this question at this point in time, the two ways of rettinr maximum efficiency from officials - MR. NEARY: Councillors and mayors are not. MR.

ROWE: Whether they be councillors or mayors or government members or school board members, if they are responsible to groups, whether communities or students and parents, the two requirements for maximum efficiency I would recommend is that they be directly responsible to those whom they represent,which means they are elected by those whom they represent and therefore they are answerable to those who elect them. That is one way of gaining maximum efficiency. Another way, Sir, of gaininr, maximum efficiency,I would submit, is that some form of payment be made to people acting on school boards.

Now I know I might be opening up a can of worms, Sir, but the fact of the matter is this, is that we do not have too many people in this day and age, not that they do not want to,but they cannot afford to put in hour after hour, night after night, weekend after weekend, trying to serve on a school board when they are suffering financially.

And, Sir, everybody knows that we are in a period of galloping inflation now, high cost of living, everybody is scraping for the last dollar, where there are more things that people want to buy, more conveniences available to buy- that is not the word I meant to use 1but more appliances and all this sort of thing-but it is pretty difficult to expect people to give of their time freely.

It is not an opinion, Sir, it is a fact of life, and I would submit that unless these people are wholly and solely answerable to their constituents, you know,under the jurisdiction of the school board, and unless they are compensated in some small way, I do not know what kind of a formula you would use, that we will not get - MR. NEARY: Unless they could have some influence on the system. MR. ROWE: Right, unles~ they of course have some - through the Federation

May 1, 1975 Tape No, 1959 NM - 3 of School Boards, they can have some influence on the system, but Sir, I am talkinp, about efficiency here. MR. BARRY: It is taking money out of one poc¥et into the other though. The taxpayer ends up paying it. MR. ROWE: Oh of course. MR. SIMMONS: By that argument we should not pay the minister,of course, MR. BARRY: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: By that argument we should not pay the minister. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. ROWE: The Minister of Mines and Energy is absolutely correct, The money in the final analysis comes from the pockets of the people. MR.

SIMMONS: Will he volunteer his services, MR. ROWE: But do not forget, Sir, that we had in excess of 200 school boards a few years ago, in excess of 200 school boards and now they have been reduced to - MR. SIMMONS: 35. MR.

ROWE: 35 school boards and they are, I would assume, more efficient and fairly massive organizations and therefore professional and they do have full-time employees with the school boards, full-time employees with the school boards, but the decision makers, the members of the school boards are not one hundred per cent accountable to their jurisdiction, their electorate in other words, because up to two-thirds of them can be appointed and it is pretty difficult to get a group of businessmen, professionals, ordinary workers, anybody in this day and age to take weekends, evenings and this sort of thing off to make their contribution to their school board.

I am not saying that they do not do it because there are hundreds of people who do do it,but I would recommend in order to maximize the effort of school boards in this Province that the government should go one step further and make it fifty per cent requirement for election and give some consideration to some sort of a stipend or amount per meeting,say. I do not know if that is the fornrula or what but I will just mention that for purposes of debate because I think it is something that we are going to have to grapple with in the near future.

May 1, 1975 Tape No. 1959 NM - 4 I am glad the minister did say that last year, or the last school board elections were a little bit of a disaster, and I think obvious l y if the process is simplified in the future that this will not occur again and that if more effort is given to educating the electorate with respect to school boards this matter will be overcome. The matter of the school boards paying for the full twelve months now makes sense.

Arbitration board days consuming, takin~ the time of the teachers, having them paid a teaching day for serving on an arbitration board, that also makes sense and the last point that the minister made, it is no longer mandatory to have a meeting of the teachinr staff at least one day before the commencement of the school year, Obviously that provided a very awkward situation for many principal  and staff.

But with respect to the first point, Sir, school board membership, I repeat, I think the time has come, you step her up one more notch towards the ultimate, up to fifty per cent requirement for election - you know fifty per cent of the school boards should be elected.

I would love to say one hundred per cent but for reasons that I mentioned before, I think it is better to do it a step at a time,and with respect to maximizing the efforts of the school boards I think we got to get to the point now where theae people are considered more as working professionals rather than as voluntary assistants and help in the Province, because of the nature of our modern times. MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable minister speaks now he closes the debate, MR. SIMMONS: Before the minister speaks just a few comments on the bill.

First ~f all, the matter of school board membership - I am pleased to see that this matter is getting tidied up a little further, I believe my colleague has said what needs to be said on the subject of elected boards. I would like to put two or three questions to the minister which he might answer during his response or his closing of debate. Perhaps 569'/

Mav } , 1975 Tape 1960 (Morning) PK - 1 he could indicate what kind of progress is being made now across the Province in terms of the legislation to provide for elected board. Is he in a position to say what percentage of,say, board members across the Province are elected? I realize that he mir.ht not have the figures right at hand, but even in general terms what percentage is elected now across the Province? And a related question, are the boards experiencing the kind of difficulty that he alluded to the first time around. There must have been some recent elections in the last few months,I would think.

Are the boards still experiencing difficulties in getting candidates to stand and to get a fair number of electors to turn out to cast ballots in the school board elections. When the regulations were first sent out, the regulations of the school board election I was in an education position at the t1me, and I took a rather strong exception to the complexity of the regulations. It is a feeling that is shared by a number of educators across the Province. I still feel that that is one of the reasons why there was some reticence on the part of people to get involved.

I believe the second version of the regulations, if I may refer to it as such, was a sten in the right direction. But would the minister indicate whether it still continues to be a problem with the matter of elections, a problem in the sense that people are probably d1ssuaded from getting involved because of the apparent complex nature of the operation. Another subject that I believe is somewhat related to the bill, although it is for Mr. Speaker to decide, :l.s the matter of further consolidation of school boards. I know there was some discussion on that matter.

Perhaps the minister would be kind enoup,h to indicate his or the government's view on it. And if there are anv active discussions taking place now? I am aware of a proposal a cnuple of years ago to further consolidate the existing thirty-five or so boards into a smaller number of units. Another subject that perhaps we can raise under this item is the matter of long-term financing. Perhaps the minister, if I can 56~H

May 1, 1975 Tape 1960 (Morning) PK - 2 get his ear for a second, perhap,a the mir,ister would indicate c-r. bring us up tc date on long-term financing, what the government's view is on it? And whether longer term financ i nP. i s a likely prospect? I subscribe very much to the principle that an item, whether it be a car or a home or a school, an i.tem that is going to be used over an extended period of time ought to he paid for over that period of time particularly when you get into the public sector.

There is no reason why we should require the parents of today's students to pay for capital outlays that will affect or be of advantage to people for fifty or sixtv y~ars to come. I am thinking particularly j of course, of steel and masonary construction. And while financing over a fifty year term might be stretching a bit, but certainly twenty, twenty-five years as opposed to the present eight or ten years is a matter, is" case that - or is an item that a good case can be made for, and I believe has been made.

And I would like to hear the minister's comments on that matter and in particular what the hopes are of the boards getting long-term financing. It ~,ould certainly, Mr. Speaker, do a great deal to ease the position of the boards insofar as providing additional facilities is conce~ned, On a couple of other items quickly, Mr. Speaker, The matter of withholding salary as provided for in this bill. I am not going to take a position against it but I am going to raise a question.

During my time involved with the schools I often found that there is something slightly somewhat distasteful about the idea that if the school principal, because in most cases now, this reference here or this provision here about withholding teachers salaries insofar as it affects the purchase of supplies from the schools supplies division, in most cases that provision would apply only to the principal who very often does the ordering for the schools. But I found it somewhat distasteful that the person's, the individuals personal salary was attached in those circumstances.

I do not know if there is another w~y arou~d it. I certainly agree it is a very effective way of col:t.ec Ung the bill. But whether it is the fair way, whether i: is the

f) cOTH!r wav to do it, because what that provisicn 5 6 ~}":j

"tay .!. • 197.5 Tape 1960 (Morning} PK - 3 savs,in effect, I do not think there are too many other precedents for it in the business world. What the provision says in effect is that the person is being held personally liable for

an act which he commits in his role as a school principal. He is being held personallv rather than professionally · liable. His personal salary is being attached. And I am not sure if '1-!e can muster a very weighty argument to support that inference. And I look at the business world and I can not see offhand, now the minister may b£ able to enlighten me on this, but I can n~t see offhand too many instances where the mana~er of an enterprise has his wages attached personally for some default ~ithin the management of the enterprise.

And there comes a point where he is called to task, and he is not doing the job, and he is fired, of course, there is that possibility. And that possibility exists equally in the case of the school principal. Rut otherwise where is there in industry or in business the instance where a fellow's salary is personally attached because a bill of the company, a bill of the school is not paid up. Now the minister will be probably be quick to point out that the bill is in the nrincinal's name, and that is right. And that is the other thing that may well be wrong with the regulations.

I know from ordering hooks as a school principal for years that the division insisted that the hill not he in the name of the school but in the name of an individual. So in that sense,in having signed his name on the dotted line, of counie, he istI would surmise,personally liable.

Now I am not talking about the technicalities involved, I am talking about the overriding implication here, that a fellow who in the execution of his duty as the manager of the enter,,rise, when you put it in those terms, as a principal of the school, in the execution of his duties in that respect he is beinp, held personally responsible and his wages are heinp, attached if there is a default on a matter which affects the manap,ement of the school.

It is not that he has stolen the money nersonallv or anything of that nature, but if it does not turn up for any reason in the department by a given date, it is my understanding that the ,,ages are attached. I would like for the minister to comment on that,and in !)articularly to indicate whether his department has considered some 57u0

May 1, 1975 Tape 1960 (Morning) other courses of action which would get away from what I describe as this rather distasteful way of, <'!istasteful hut effectiv-: wav of collecting the bill. Finall y I would like to,·co11D11ent on the other provision in the biII,that of deleting the requirement that a principal convene a meeting on the day before school opens. I am glad to see this.

It is one of the several things that was in the Schools Act in 1969 when it was first introduced here, I was actually involved with the NTA at that particular time, and I remember that thP.re were e1ghty­ seven items in that bill to which we took exception. This is one of the eighty-seven. When the bill was finally passed I believe there were just twelve or thirteen items because there were some compromises along the way. But when the bill was first introduced there were eighty-seven items to which we and the NTA took exception, and subsequently twelve or fifteen remained in there.

This is one of the twelve or so that did remain in. I took a strong exception to it then and I do now, because of the implication. Let me say first of all that I took a strong exception to a number of things that were in the Schools Act in 1969. And I will point out before the minister does that it was brought in a Liberal Government and all that kind of thing. It goes to show once again, of course, MR. HICKMAN: Democracy. MR. SIMMONS: Democracy at work) as mv friend the Minister of Justice reminds me. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

SIMMONS: I did not care what the label of the govern ment was, I happen to take exce~tion to that on var :!.ot:s i;:rouncls, including educational grounds. And the Act itself was pretty prescriptjv£, he made that point over and over. It attempted to outline in too much detail what the various people in the educational enterprise should he doing from time to time, like the time they should arrive at school,and when they should leave and that kind of thing, and how they should prepare the i r lessons and so on. This is one of the items 57(1:!.

'<ay l, 1975 Tape 1980 (Morning) PK - 5 that should have heen thrown out before, and I am glad is being thrm'Tl out now. Recause the implication is that the principal without th.is rep:ulation in here is going to stroll into a school 0 : '1'1 o'cJock in the morninr. that the school is suppose to open and sav,well hoys here I am now what is it that we got to do this y£>ar. Hv £>Xperience with 570'.l

May 1, 1975 Tape no, 1961 Page 1 - 111w school principals is not that, It is that you will find them around the school 111uch earlier than the day before school opens , And, of course, like in every enterprise there are good principals and there are bad ones, if I 111ight use those two terms . There is good and bad in almost any particular occupation or set of careers. And I found the principal who even if you had ten sets of regulations like this would be straggling in at the last minute.

By and large I fotmd that the principal had his homework done without the need for any provision in the act to tell him to get moving,and that is what that pravision used to tell him, and I am glad it is being removed because it does say to the princip•l once again, look, we trust you to do the job. We are going to continue to trust you as long as you do the job. The day you do not do the job we are going to fire you and that is the board's prerogative, and it should not have to depend on any details such as this one which heretofore has been in the act.

So I certainly comend the minister and his officials for finally removing this sore point from the act as it affects 11ana.gers, if you like, educators or principals in the education profession. MR, SPEAICER: the debate. If the honourable 111inister speaks now he closes MR. OTTENBEIMER: Mr. Speaker, a few brief c011111ents on matters referred to by previous speakers.

Yes, the change in the act whereby there will no longer be the requirement for the principal to convene a meeting of the teaching staff the day before the commencement of school is, of course, becatJse it was the opinion of government and indeed of others~of people both professionally involved in education~that this was an overly prescriptive - not that the idea itself was wrong but that this kind of prescription by legislation was not necessary and that we are dealing with professional people and the professional association and that that kind of prescriptive statutory provision was not necessary and could well be rega~ded as insulting.

I suppose that would be a fair enough word.

May 1, 1975 Tape no. 1961 Page 2 - mw With reference to the attaching of a salary, certainly this is not something which is done as a first resort. I can certainly realize that this is certainly distasteful or certainly would be distasteful for a person whose salary is so attached.

On the other side of the coin, of course, these are public funds and the government does have a responsibility to ensure that money owed is money paid, a real responsibility there for which we would quite rightly be criticized,I would think,by the Auditor General if we did not take every reasonable and effective measure to assure that money is repaid.

And, of course, this would only be done after a number of bills had been sent out, you know, and there was some indication not, you know, of writing back and saying, I hope to have this matter finalized within the next month or that type of thing sort of more or less, you know, no response whatsoever as a last measure. _MR. SIMMONS: Would the minister just permi.t a question? I meant - just a

preamble to my question - to draw an analogy with the situation which exists when a private enterprise is trying to collect an outstanding bill and attaches a person's wages. As I understand it, unless there has been a recent change, funds from the treasury cannot be attached. Now you have this further unfairness here in that because the person is at once receiving his salary from government and at the same time has an outstanding account with government, you have the situation which does not exist anywhere else MR. OTTENHEIMER: Right. MR.

SIMMONS: where his salary is being attached, but if I own a construction company and you owe me money, or I own a business, and you owe me money, and I try and attach your wages because you have worked with government - MR. OTTENHEIMER: Right. MR. SIMMONS: - I cannot do it under the existing laws. But the teacher in that sense is being discriminated against - I strike that word - is in a situation which, I think, is unfair and which is not parallel anywhere else in the country. MR. OTTENHEIMER: I recognize, you know, that there is a different situation there and the only reasonmr it, I think, is because we are

May 1, 1975 Tape no, 1961 Page 3 - mw dealing not with funds of a private corporation ors private company but in effect with public funds. It would be public funds which are being owed, and they are public funds which make up the salary of the teachers. I realize that is different than the way it would operate in the private sec~or. It may be, - naturally, to the best of my knowlege, at least the two and one-half years that I have been there, we have never had any representation from the Teachers Association on this matter, and I doubt if it is employed often. We have never had any representation from them on it.

There may be other ways of assuring that the public funds owing to the public treasury can be reasonably and effectively recuperated. There may be. I would certainly be willing to look into it. With respect to remarks about further elections to school boards, certainly I believe in the principle of accountability. I think that we have to increase the number, certainly to one-half or perhaps to two-thirds. I think, myself, that the day may well come when it will be one hundred per cent,or very close to it. Certainly I am of the opinion that we do not need the complexity for school board elections that we have had.

I think the thing can be simplified totally, by people coming to vote and signing on their honour that they are residents of the area entitled to vote and have not previously voted, and then just vote. I do not think it is necessary to have swearing in and voters' lists and all of this complexity. You know, they are not partisan elections. There are no parties, there are no salaries involved.

If a person is interested enough to run then he should be encouraged and the people should be encouraged to vote, and I do not see the need for either the expenditure of funds or time or the added complexity of going through the procedures. and I think it could be done purely on an honour system. I cannot really see anybody for any reason taking advantage of it. The difficulty with the numbers of people runninR and the num.bers of people voting, too, could well be due to two factors

(1) I think the comple..~ity and (2) perhaps that it was the first time, I would certainly think that in the 570b

May 1. 1975 Tape no. 1961 Page 4 - 111W next general election for school boards with a greatly simplified process I do not think we would have quite the same problem.

With respect to further consolidation some school boards are looking at their boundaries and thinking in terms of some re-adjustments but there is not contemplated to my knowledge a major matter of consolidation whereby, let us say, the number of school boards will be reduced by ten or fifteen or reduced at all necessarily, but some re-alignment perhaps of boundaries and it could well be with the scattered population we have in rural areas although naturally, you know, in terms of efficiency one often thinks of larger boards, and there are strong arguments which can be put forward for having leas boards.

There are obviously on the other side of the coin that, you know, there has to be a happy medium and it can get so large. I am not thinking of population as concentrated in small areas but in the rural boards covering quite some distances, and there could be quite an impersonality. And sometimes small communities,even to date,feel a bit left out of the larger boards. So there is no thought at present of reducing the number of boards. Finally, long-term financing, Of course, all I can say there is, as honourable gentlemen know, we do have a coumitment of $135 million expenditure over the next ten year period.

So it is long-term in the sense that it is up to ten years. I know that there are those who are requesting and hoping that this can be over a longer period. All I can say is that govermnent, you know, is certainly aware of their requests, aware of the financial problems of school boards and continuing to study it from the point of view of how or can one, a government, extend that period without in other ways impairing the ability to borrow of the Province with a regular governmental progranme. That is what we are examining.

On motion, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Schools Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Coumittee of the Whole House presently by leave. 570U

May 1, 1975 Tape 1962 (morning) Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act F11rther 'J'o Amend The Department Of Finance Act. 11 MR. SPEAKER: '!'he honourable the Minister of Justice . IB-l MR. HICKMAN: This is merely a housekeeping bill, Mr. Speaker. Some years ago there was an amendment to the Department of Finance Act providing for the appointment of an assistant deputy minister (revenue).

It is the feeling of the officials in the department that the department can run much more effectively if instead of having him called the assistant deputy minister (revenue) that he simply be an assistant deputv minister along with the other assistant deputy minister. That means that. we have a minister, a deputy, two assistants;under one assistant comes government accounts, taxation administration, and under the other assistant deputy minister,payrolls and pension, loans guaranteed and debt management. and administration. A forward piece of legislation! MR. SPEAKER: The honourable ~ember for Bell Island. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, although the minister says that this is just a very simple piece of legislation, Sir, it is not really all that simple. Mr. Speaker, it is an amendment to the Department of Finance Act to establish a new post, to establish the post of assistant deputy minister of finance. That is what it does, Sir. The minister just brushes it off as if it was nothing. Sir, this bill would amend the principle act to abolish the post of assistant deputy minister of finance (revenue) in parenthesis. It will establish an additional oost of denutv minister of finance.

Well, Sir, the minister certainly must not place very much importance on this position . Just shrugs his shoulders and brushes it off saying, you know all we are doing is making a minor change here. They are only establishing a new position, Sir. A..'i HONOURABLE MEMBER: No. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. Establishing an additional post of assistant deputy minister of finance. MR. HICKMAN: We are replacing the deputy minister of finance ~evenucl. MR. NEARY: Well, that is what I just said. MR. HICKMAN: Yes, but i t i s the same person. All it is is the assistant deputy minister of finsn~e.

You just cross out revenue, the word revenue. r · 7 •- ;) I U ;"

"layl,l975 Tape 1Qfi2 (morntng) IR-2 MR. NEARY: Sir, Tam well aware of that. It just takes out the word revenue. Rut, it creates a new post and gives the gentleman in that job addit:1.onal responsihility and additional salary, I might say, a suhstantial increase in salary. MR. HICKMAN: ( Inaudible .) the same as anvhodv , else. ~- NEARY: Well, Sir, the minister can go and check it and find out. Mr. Speaker, I presume that the new gentleman,whoever he may be, the assistant deputy minister of finance whoever he may be at the moment will be responsible for collecting the social security tax. I presume he will, Sir.

Did the minister nod yes or no . that this is so? Mn . lllCKMAN: Yes. MP. NEARY: It is so. l-'P. HI CK'4AN: Pe is responsible now. MR. NF.ARY: I beg your pardon? MP. . HICKMAN: He is responsible now. MF. NEARY: Re is responsible for it now. Now they are going to take that out, revenue out. This assistant deputy minister will still be responsible for collecting the social security tax. Well, Sir, I have seen recently aome of these papers, these publications that are put out by various agencies. I do not know what they are called now.

I saw one the other day with a whole list of outstanding debts to the government in the form of social security tax. So, I do not know whether the assistant deputy minister of finance(revenue)is doing his job or not. What I would like to know, ~r. Speaker, is how these huge amounts are created. Why are they let go for such long per1.ois? Why are they not kept current? Why does not the assistant deputy minister of finance take action on a monthly hasis rather than let these amounts accumulate over a prriod of a year or two years. Some of the amounts that I saw, Sir, were in the thousands of dollars .

Would the minister explain to the House how this happens? Is it because the government, that administration, the l-'inister of Finance has advised the assistant deputy minister of finance to keep hands off, not to-be too severe on these people? The government, Sir, is owed thousands. I do not know how much but I would submit thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in SSA tax. A lot of it is 570t1

May 1, 1975 Tape 1962 (morning) I'B-3 uncollectable bPcause the companies under th2 Companies Act have de clared bankruptcy. Rut, how does it happen, Mr. Speaker? With an as sistant deputy minister of finance(revenue)and a staff, how can he sit back and let this go on and let these huge amounts accumulate month in and month out without taking action against these people? Mr. Speaker, cannot these accounts be kept current? Can the minister tell us? Can the minister explain to us, clarify the situation for me? I can never understand it. Can they not be kept current?

The government, Sir, I would submit is losing tr.ousands and thousands of dollars a year in revenue because before they get a chance to collect the arrears the company declares bankruptcy. This particular list I saw the other day, a number of companies had gone into liquidation, either were forced to liquidate their assets or went into voluntary liquidation with $5,000 and $6,000 and $7,000 Rnd $8,000 SSA tax outstanding to the govern~nt. It is beyond me, Sir, te imagine how this can happen.

Does the assistant deputy minister of finance not have enough staff, not have enough inspectors to go around to keep a check on these accounts? They should be required, Sir, by law to submit a monthly report. If they do not, they should be whacked into court, a writ served on them. Do not let them get away with it. Sir, if I owe my taxes or any ordinary person in this Province owes his taxes, it will not be long before the Jong arm of the law will reach out and grab him and force him to pay up.

Why are these individuals and companies allowed to accumulate huge amounts of SSA tax over a period of twelve months, sometimes up as much as two years? A lot of them in some instances, Sir, have a license to operate from another agency of government. It is beyond me, Sir, to comprehend why this is happening. I would like to have a full explanation from the minister on this,what he terms a very simple thing, just doing away with one post and creat1.ng a new post. Sir, that is all I have to say about this but I would certainly 1:1.ke to have an explanat:!o n of it. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, th e honourable gentleman from Bell Island really amazes me. Nothing could be simplier . It would be almost - no ,

""Y 1, 1<175 Tape 1962 (morning) there is another bill on this Order Paper that is simplier. That is the one that amends certain commas in the statute. All this does is change the title of a person who is already there. He is no longer going to be called assistant deputy minister (revenue). He IB--4 1s going to be called assistant deputy minister along with his confrere.the other assistant deputy minister,because he has additional post.

The honourable gentleman did not realize but when he was talking ahout the list that he saw of writs that had been issued, it is proof positive that there has indeed been a tremendous improvement in the collection procedures in that department. MR. NF.ARY: Not according to what I saw. ~R. FICKMAN: The reason for it is that the people down there now in finance move very, very swiftly. As soon as there is any accumulated indebtedness, my department fills the breacll., issues the writ and then it is reported on this little sheet that the honourable gentleman has seen.

I am told by finance that there has been an improvement. I know there has from my department's point of view. I can recall some years ago when SSA accounts were outstanding for years and years and years simply because we did not have the staff in the Department of Justice to process the writs. Now, we do it with vigor and enthusiasm and we have collected a great deal of money. I move second reading. AN HONOUPAIILE ME~ER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: Oh, I am sorry. AN HONOURAIILE ME>fflER: The honourable minister has closed the debate. "-'R. HICl<}'AN: I did not hear you. MR.

EAIIY : Bv leave, Sir, you can give a member by leave - AN HONOURA!ILE !-!EMBER: By leave. AN HONO\TRAJ\LE ME1'fllER: Okay, by leave. 1-!R. GILLETT: Very briefly, Mr. Speaker. I was interested in the remarks made by my honrurable colleague from Bell Island and the reply given by the Minister of Justice. He mentioned that years ago the SSA used to go on up into maybe the years. This is one thing that has been of concern, '17 0 ,_ . J..

May 1, 1975 Tape 1962 (mornin

g) tB-5 I imagine,to all business people throughout Newfoundland, not as much today a s it was then b e cause more business is done on a cash basis. But , I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that there have been thousands upon thousands of dollars of SSA paid· into the department, into the Govemlllllllt of Newfoundland which has never been collected. The debts have just been written off . Business was done on a cre dit basis. The SSA by law had t o b e charged and submitted b ut the account was neve r paid . It was written off. So, I think 5711

!·lay 1 , 1075. Tape 1963 RH - l myself renlly instead of _just saying that we are going to take legal action against a firm, I think a complete investigation should be m:'tde of that firm's books, its records, to find out how much of this S.S.~. has not been paid by the conslll!ler, much less the principal, hut the S. S .A. I just wanted to make that <1tatement, Mr.

Speaker, and I than.k the Pause for giving me the permission to do that. nn motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Department of ll'inance Act," read a second time, ordered referred to the Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. On motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting Public Libraries And Boards To Operate Them.'' MR. HICKEY: What is wrong this morning, Mr. Speaker? Mr.

Speaker, this bill would amend and consolidate the Public Libraries Act which deals with the establishment and operation of public libraries in the Province so to bring it up to date and in line with the policies of the Public Libraries Board.The main changes are that under the bill the community, local and regional boards which are now operating in the form of corporations would now become part of the main corporation which is set up in this bill.

All the assets, liabilities, etc. would obviously be taken over by the corporation, by the board as outlined in this bill, would also provide for the appointment of a chief provincial librarian to replace at least to name the Director of Public Libraries Services provided for under the present act. The present Public Libraries Board and staff and the other boards and staff would continue in office and be replaced from time to time in accordance with the bill. That is basically it, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Dunphy): The honourable Me.mber for St. Barbe North. MR. ROWE: For some strange, Mr.

Speaker, for some strange reason I thought th,it was under education. The only question that I can put rep:arding this particular bill is what were the reasons for it? lJhat motivated it? \fas it just in order to streamline the situation? Were thesE individual boards around the country as corporations running 571c

May 1, 1975. Tape 1963 RH - 2 into difficulty, financial difficult or was this consolidation for purposes of bookkeeping or what? What was the actual motivations for doing this and upon what request or recommendations was this based? MR. SPEAKER: The minister now speaks, he will close the debate. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, the main purposes as I understand it is to streamline the overall operation of libraries - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. HICKEY: - ,. in line with most Provinces ,as I understand it. I think most Provinces have what is known as a provincial librarian. He do not as such as the moment.

The gentleman who, the Director of Library Services fills that same post almost to the letter. One of the important changes as I see it is at the moment the various boards throughout the Province and there is quite a number and they are ever increasing, are to all intents and purposes corporations unto them­ selves. They are under the direction of the Director of Library Services. But the assets, the liabilities and the overall responsibilities for the operation are not as clearly defined in the old system as it would be in the new one.

It is, to my mind, to streamline the system and cannot do anything but improve. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKEY: Yes, that is basically it. On motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting Puhlic Libraries and Boards to Operate Them," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. On motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Public Services Pensions Act." MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, what I say about this hill applies equally in the main to the next bill, number (33).

It was decided in December of 1973 to permit employees who were legitimately ill, employees in the public service to use up their sick leave entitlement before being retired on pension on the understanding however that such sick leave entitlement shall in any case terminate upon the attainment by an employee of the age of sixty-five. It was further decided that the 571.3

!'ay 1, 1975. Tape 1%3 order would have retroactive effect from April 1, 1973 and that emnloyees who had been pensioned since that date before reaching ar,e sixty-five be permitted to exhaust any sick leave to which they may be entitled up to sixty-five. These, of course, any sick leave applications have to be, entitlement have to be suhstantiated hy a satisfactory medical certificate. RH - 3 It was also the advice of the Pensions Conunittee that there hacl to be some clarification in the manner of calculating certain pensions and this is provided for in the act.

This necessitated a similar amendment to the act that follows. I move second reading. ~R. SPEAKER (Dunphy): The honourable ~ember for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, again the minister just sort of is over- simplifying the situation, Sir. I would like for the minister to tell the Conunittee just how or if he, how many civil servants he thinks would be involved say in the run of a year in a kind of a situation where they would retire and still have accumulated sick leave due them? Would there be very many or, Mr. Speaker, do we have a situation in government like they have down in City Hall?

What is the record of absentism, Sir, due to sick leave? You know, the minister can just brush this off all he wants but does the minister have any backup material with him? Could he get us the information? I know it is simple, it might sound simple to the lawyers, Sir, but there are more implications to this bill than meets the eye. You know, just what is the track record. Could the minister give us some background information? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable minister now speaks, he will close the debate. MR.

HICKMAN: Number one, the question of absentism within the public service obviously is not relevant to this debate. This debate - MR. NEARY: For sick leave. till. HICKMAN: For sick leave. HR. NEARY: Yes. ----- ~11· t,i ·- t

May 1, 1975. Tape 1963 RR - 4 MR. HICKMAN: But the - I am only hazar ding a RUCSS on this. I do not think that there will be any larg e number of civil servants covered under this, caug.ht up within this category. It is a humane. piece of legislation and one that is long over due . On motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Public Service Pensions Act," read a second time, referred to the Committee of the Rouse presently by leave. On motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Civil Service Act." MR. BICKMAN : Mr.

Speaker, what I said on the first act applies equally to the second. I move second reading. On motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Civil Service Act," read a second time, referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. 5710

1·'"Y l, J.'17', Tape 1964 (Morning) PK - 1 "IR. l!lCKJ,<.AN: ·- - --- -~ Order 20, Bill No. 24. ~otion second read1.np, of a hill, "An Act Further To Amend Tl,e Agreement Ratified, Confirmed And Adopted By And Set Forth In The

Schedule To The Leitch Gold }fines Limited (Agreement) Act, 1964, And To 'lake Certain Statutory Provisions Relating To That Agreement." MR. RARRY: Hr. Speaker, if I could just refer to the explanatory note this bill would amend the agreement between the government and Leitch r.old Mines Limited. The successor to this agreement is the Newfoundland Zinc Comoany or the Daniel's Harbour Operations zinc mine has heen started under this agreement.

And the bill would amend the agreement to increase the area which may be selected by the comnany for development licence to be issued under the agreement from thirtv scmare miles to eighty square miles. Nm-1 the amendment also deals ~·ith the method of selection of the area or areas to be comprised :In the develooment licence. It acquires the comnanv to make certain expenditures for further exploration and develonment of the area comprised in a development licence, 1nd it nrescrihes certain conditions under which development licence will he issued.

The amendment also provides for the substitution under neT•' ler:i slation and general application affecting mining leases as soon as the new legislation is enacted of any mining leases issued rPsmecting an area or areas over and ahove the thirty souare miles referred to in Clause 'l (

J) of the agreement, as Clause 9 (3) would he Pn;i.ctecl bv the hill. Tn other words, Mr. Spea\·er, this additional fi.fty square miles that tl,e comnanv ,,,ould he p.iven the right to hold under development l 1.cences under their agreement.

The company has ar,reed to have any nr1• 1er,tslat1on of p;enera} ap!'lication for the mining industry across the l'rov1nce annly to these fifty square mileR, We were not prepared t0 tie ourselves in to grant them this additional acreage under the olcl rule,: of the game, under either the terms of the agreement or the terms of exI<itinp, mining tax laws, for example, So we have obtained t 11e commi.tment of the cc--mpany to agree that when new legislation of fc:>neral apnlicati .on comes into effect it will apply to this additional acrear,e. 57J.b

May 1 , 1975 Tape 1964 (Morning) PK - ?. If I just could give some further details, M'r. Speaker, they might be of interest to the members. Thjs agreement stems back to 1963 when the initial three year agreement was made with Leitch Gold Mines comprising an area of 1,473 square miles. The company was required to spend a minimum of $100,000 on exploration of the areas during the three year period. The company in fact expended $380,000, almost four times the amount it had to during the three year period, during which time it made a discovery of the deposit of zinc on one of the areas.

The company reported at that time that the deposit contained approY.imately 5 million tons of ore. The company suhsequently applied for and was granted a three year extension. So the original agreement would be up in 196~. They got a three year extension to 1969, with resoect to a much smaller area,427 square miles,where the zinc deposit had been located, and the· company was required to spend an additional $75,000 during the extended three year period, and that extension of course had to be ratified ~y act of the Legislature as it then was.

Shortly after the extension was ratified Leitch Gold Mines Limited assigned the agreement to Newfoundland Zinc Mines Limited. Both Leitch and Newfoundland Zinc considerably over spent the minimum amount required to be spent on exploration. And they requested another extension in 1969, another three year extension with the commitment to spend not less than an additional $300,000 during this extended period. And government granted that additional extension.

During the second extended period Newfoundland Zinc Mines arr anged for the participation of Cominco Limited in the continued exploration of the property and reported that during the first two years of this period an additional $385,000 had been spent on exploring the area. So you can see that even though this was a case where an agreement had been extended there were considerable dollars being expended by the company, more in every case than they were required to under tl':.eir agreement, much more in some cases . They received an adtlitfonal extension in 1972.

And this agreement is now due to exp5 r e on July 10 , 1975, this year. Now we 57·• -. . :. I

><av 1, 1 n75 Tape 1964 (Morning) are not prepared to extend the agreement. They requested an additional extension as part of one of the proposals that they made. We are not prepared to extend the agreement. We believe that the land has been tied up long enough, and the company T think more or less ap;rees that thev have had sufficient time to make their choice under the agreement of the final area that they are p;oing to select under developMent licences where they wi.11 holrl these then for five years and pay rentals. • N·T llON. l'IE!IBER : J,m_. BARRY : >fR. ROBERTS: ---~-·-- - Inaudible • Pardon?

F!ow much does the company select - PK - 3 !-IT'. BARRY: They have have the right under their existing ap;reement to select thirty snuare miles. HR. RO!lFRTS: Any thirty square miles? MR. BARRY: Any thirty square miles, according to certain rules 1'ut - ,m_. ROI\F.RTS: Inaudible. '~- l\ARRY: I think it was restricted as a 427 square miles. J.ess than a tenth of the - MR . ROWF,P-.TS : /\bout a fourteenth. mi. TIAP.R'Y: About a fourteenth. Yes,out of the 472 square miles it is permitted to select thirty square miles.

Altogether s:lnce the agreement Pas executed in 1963 the companies have exnencled on exploring the areas approximately $1,500,000. AN HON. ME~fBJ.. .:.. Inaudible. Pardon? AN HON. HE!·'RR~ : Inaudible. Leitch Golcl Mines. I am not sure t.Tho the Leitch is. They ~-r:!.11 now he investinJ!; approximately $18 million, and they are now in the process of doing it now, it is almost completed, to 1,rinp; a mine into production.

They have already been issued a dev elopment l icence with respect to the mininp, operation itself, on a minin g lease,cover the area where they are going to mine. ~ut thev have concentrated their activities in recent years upon del:!mitinp; and assessing the potential of several principle deposits 57JJ1

May 1, 1975 Tape 1964 (Morning) PK - 4 that it had uncovered:; in order to determine if this mining operation was feasible and economic. And they have obviously concluded that it is because they have started a mine. And because they have con­ centrated on this one area or small area they have not been able to get adequate infonnation,in their opinion,of the remaining attractive areas under their block.

Because they have concentrated in getting this mine into operation as quickly as possible thev say that they would like further time before they have to select their mining leases for the remaining parts of the area, they would like further time to do additional exploration. They say the company is aware of the potential for further discoveries of zinc outside of its current proposed mining areas, and has mapped out selective areas comprising in the aggregate 120 square miles.

And this is what they wanted us to grant 1120 square miles, which it felt to be favourable for the location of zinc·deposits similar to those already found. This total includes seventy-five square miles of known geology and forty-five square miles of over burden covered terrain where they assume that the favourable geology continues, but you do not really know because you got this large overburden on the top, anrl until you drill down you do not know whether the same geology continues. 571~

May 1, 1975 Tape No, 1965 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: They have the right to select thirty square miles out of four hundred and seventy-two square miles for development licences. These development licences are then for five year periods. The only requirement is that the company must pay an annual rental of fifty cents per acre per year, that is under their agreement. There is no requirement for them to spend any money on exploration during that period under their agreement and the size and the shape are at the discretion of the company. MR. HICKMAN: $15 or $20 a year. MR. BARRY: No. No.

No, it is fifty cents an acre, there are 640 acres in a square mile so about $12,000 I guess, Thirty square miles would be about 18,000, 19,000 acres so that you are talking fifty cents, close to $10,000, not quite $10,000 - $9,000 or $10,000. Now they put forth a proposal whereby they would agree to certain amendments of their agreement if they could get an additional 90 square miles. Now we would not accept that.

We said that that is - you are asking too much and we went back and forth to Cabinet a number of times, we rejected the initial proposals of the company, but we have now reached the stage where they are prepared to accept an additional fifty square miles, this is under development licence for five years, but they will agree to expend annually a certain amount of money under exploration even thoup,h under their agreement they are not required to do this. They have agreed to expend annually a certain amount on exploration, if I could find it here no~•.

In the first year - $2,000 a square mile, in the second year - $2,000 a square mile, in the third year - $3,000 a aquare miles, in the fourth year - $4,000 a square mile and in the fifth year - $5,000 a square mile. They would also pay rental at the rate of fifty cents an acre and they would hold the licences for a five year period, There are a number of other conditions, Unless the honourable members want me to go into them I will not go into them at this stage.

But basically we believe that it is in the interest of the Province to ensure the long life of the Daniel's Harbour zinc mine, At~he present time they have reserves of some ten years approximately, but very good potential for additional 5720

May 1, 1975 Tape No. 1965 NM - 2 reserves, so we have to do a balancing act. We have to, while on the one hand doing what we can to ensure that the life of the mine i s extended, on the other hand we have to avoid having large areas tied up by one company for long ·periods of time and closed to othe r competitors. Now we think that we have struck an appropriate balance here.

It is not easy and I will be interested in hearing the comments of the honou•able members of the House, but we have tried to strike this balance and we think we have struck it, where there will be altogether some 390 square miles approximately relinquished by the company of the area that they now hold in the agreement. This area will be made available in course of time to other groups or individuals who may be interested in exploring in the area. There is a lot of interest.

There will be some forty square miles made available that Newfoundland Zinc would like very much to have because this was part of the original 120 square miles that they - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: Oh,Newfoundland Zinc is a Corporation, a Newfoundland corporation - MR. ROBERTS: It is owned by the Tech Company. MR. BARRY: It is owned partly by Tech Corporation and partly by Annex, which is an American Corporation. But Tech has the controlling intereqt.

We think we have reached the proper balance here in that there will be signj.ficant · areas made available to competitors, to other people who want to get involved in the area, but at the same time we are - and we do not have to do this, it is up to this Legislature, Cabinet has decided that it should present this bill and we are prepared to recommend that this bill go through to give the company the additional square miles to enhance the probability of their making further discoveries of zinc to expand the l ife of the Daniel's Harbour Mine 5721

May l, 1975 Tape no. 1966 Page 1 and as I say it is not an easy decision to make but it is one, I think, that in view of the fact that the company has an active operation about to commence and the last word l heard on that - the honourable member might have more recent word, I have not been checking on it in recent weeks - but the last work that I had was that they expected to get underway in June. There is a bit of a delay because of equipment problems.

But because this company has shown that it is prepared to spend significant dollars o.n exploration, prepared to spend some $18 million on putting a mine into production and the terms of this bill would require it to spend some $130,000 a year for the first two years and $180,000, then $230,000 and the fifth year $280,000, and because the company has indicated to us, although they are not bound by the agreement to do this, they have indicated that they are prepared to spend approximately $400,000 in this calendar year on exploration to define the potential areas to be selected before their agreement expires July 10.

They want to decide what thirty square miles they are going to take under their existing agreement because obviously this is more attractive to them. They are going to spend a considerable number of dollars. I rec=end to this honourable House, Mr. Speaker, that we accept the principle of this bill. _!lR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Dunphy~: The Hon. Member for White Bay North. MR. ROBERTS: I thank Your Honour. Well he is not confused this morning. Mr. Speaker - was Your Honour about to say something? Oh Your Honour is about to leave. It is the changing of the guard. Mr.

Speaker, let me - it means they have to bring the heavyweights in to deal with this. Mr. Speaker, let me begin by saying that my colleagues and I - MR. DUNPHY: MR. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. DUNPHY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order. Uh my! Order, please! I am wondering whether it is customary for a member who is speaking in his seat to make snide remarks when the Assistant Deputy Speaker is leaving the Chair1 Is it necessary? AN HON. MEMBER: Changing of the guard MR. DUNPHY: And I would ask Your Honour to afford some protection to the Speaker as he is leaving the Chair.

As usual the honourable member - and I use the term loosely - for White Bay North is displaying his usual amount of ignorance. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Let me first of all say that I made no snide remarks. I said that the gentleman who was in the Chair 572'1..

May 1, 1975 Tape no. 1966 Page 2 - mw was not confused. I regret having said that because as he has just made quite obvious he is confused again this morning. After the honourable gentleman having threatened me outside the House I do not need to make snide remarks about him, Sir, his conduct speaks for itself. Furthermore to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is surely in order to note the fact that the occupant of the Chair is changing and I ased the phrase, as I recall it, that we are having a changing of the guard, and it is. I could have ssid, you know.

They are changing the guard at Buckingham Palace/ Christopher Robin went down with Alice, but I did not. I merely said that we are having a changing of the guard. And I submit that is in order, Sir. And I submit there was nothing snide, improper, unp~rliamentary, irregular or in any way out of order in what I said. I said what I said because I wanted to note that a heavyweight, and I use that term in the usually adopted sense, that a heavyweight was entering the Chair and that, too, Sir, is a matter of fair comment which shows no disrespect for the Chair or any of its occupants. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: A~ the present Speaker was about· to take the Chair I understand that the honourable the Leader of the Opposition rose to speak to a bill that was being debated in this House. The Chair certainly sees no reason whatsoever for any member cODD11enting on the fact that the Chair is being relieved by one person or the other. It is certainly not relevant to any bill. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I accept your -

May 1, 1975 Tape 1967 (Afternoon) PK - 1 MR. SPEA