Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-8EVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, JUNE 10, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 81

The House met at 2:00P.M. "r. ~peaker -tn the C.ha-tr. f!J?. SPEAKER: f1rder, nleasP! 1'rt]1e No. 3331 PRESENTING PETITIONS 'T'hp hon. member for '!lay of Islands. t"!" -- l ~n:' • ST'EAK1?11_ : 'm. :.-JO()DROio.': ~r. Speaker, I would like to nresent a petition on behalf of t~•enty-six families in the Community of Jrishtown in the Ray of Islands District.

And the ~raver of the netition is the neople urgently request the additional water line throur,h the ColTllllunity of Irishtown and I would like to s:..v, Mr. ~neaker, just to explain this a little further, that alreatly there is a water line through the Co1llJTtunity of Irishtown 1mrl these t~,rcnty-six families that I speak about are families who moved to Trishtown after nurchasing land from Bowaters in l<l71 nnr! 1Q74. So I >vould like, Mr. Speaker, to lay this petition on the tahle of the House of Assembly and hope their request he referred to the Department of ~unicipal Affairs. 'fR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member. for Baie Verte -White !lay. 'IT! • TUDF.OUT : Nr. ~peaker, I am rising to support this net it ion nn he!1alf of my colleagues. We would support the prayer of the petition. Water is a necessity to all people and certainly in this day and a?,e we \muld supnort the prayer of the petition and hope that the Department of ~!unicipal Affairs and Housing mir;ht he able to finn the funds this year to provirle an <"Xt£'nsion to the watP-r line in Irishtown. T•!e on this side of tl,<' House, Six, support j_t. ~!R. SPEAKEP_; The hon. ~Unister of 11.unicipal Affairs and Housing. "!R. PECKFORD : Mr.

Sneaker, I acknowledge the tabling of the netition and uhen it is sent do"rn to the Department of Municipal Affairs we ~qilJ immediately have that checked out :me have my enp.ineers check it out and come un with estimates of coRt and we will do everythinp. possible to see that the - 10542

Tape No. 3331 NM- 2 MR. PECKFORD: people of that area are provided with the water that tqe other people in the municipality now have. lffi. SPEAKER: The hon. member for TwillinBate. "f'R. SMALLT,JOOn: Mr.

Sneaker, it is with a heart and a half that I support the prayer of this petition from the magnificent people of Irishtown, amon~ whom I worked many, many years ago and who 1~ere happy warriers in my campaign and who supported me and anything they want, it seems to me, they ou~ht to get, especiallv as thPy are now represented by so gallant an hon • . ~entlem<~.n as thP present member, my successor in that constituency. In my humble hook, my modest book, which the hon. gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. J.

Carter) was so happy apparently to tell us the other day, or the other night in the House lvas now selling at a discount price, after being the best seller in Canada for a number of weeks, in that same modest book I tell the story of what happened to me in Irishtown with the late Michael Foley and the late Jim Penney of Corner Brook. Th:ls ts ~<rhen they• were interrupted by the drunk down at the hnc1' of the haJJ. T know there are no drunks left in Irish town hut there was one drunk at that time and at the hack of the hnl] he Has mal,inr, a comple.te nuisance of h:tmself and Hike an(!

Jim T>cnm·y h"-rl to pive up. The next speaker was Mike F'ol<'y who tr:it'd to ;o1ly hi.m along and he had to ~ive up.

And then t caM<" on and he '~as a little polite to me f('IT a whilE' and then he could not resist an<'l he interrupted and I said, "T would liJ·.e to tell the hon. gentle111an the story of the little birr1, the J itt] e hungry bird at da1m is sit tin<; at the very hottom limh of this trP.e out in th1s field, wretched and cold an'! shivering am.: mi~erable ;;ncl wonderinp.; where it ~ms gain~ to vet i!:s hre:1l:f <tst 1Yhen 1ust at that psychological moment a horse c11me a1oDr; rif,ht under the tree and did whllt many a horse has heen lmown to do t-efore and !"assed on.

The little bird ho~ed down ~nd feasted royally on a hot warm breakfast. Then 10543

T<!f\C~ No. 3TH )'1M - 3 •-m.

S}IALLHOOD: feelin~ ~·JOnderful flew up to the tin top of the tree and hurst forth in sonr. at the top of its voice. ~ad tn snv n hen hm.rl: [] yinp in the hi r:her air nnd hearinr, this sound Slvonpecl down and Hith one fell swoop seized the little bird in his he.:tk and made off." And the drunk ~ras ill aclviserl enough to mimic me ard say, "Made off." I said, "Ye;;, l'la<le off, but what my friend is omitting ts t~e moral of this story, and the moral of the story is that Hhen vou are full of," I cannot repeat the word here in this !louse, Hhen you are full of that, it is a word l•lith four letters beginning with the letter "s" and l'mlinr Hi th the let tel:" "t", >·Then you are full of that keep vour mo11th shnt.

Anc'! that wa;; the end of that. All that hanpenen in Tdshtmm . So Trishtown is entitled to anything that a renerons governnen.t nnd :-:. !'!enProus ~Unister of ''unic1!ln] Affairs, who iR :1n outharhour man, a bay noddy hill'self lHe me, nnythinr, that he is big enough and p.:enProus enouf':h to p,ive to such a splendid people as the nPople of Tr1.shtown. 'IR. SPEAXRR: The hon.. member for LaPoile. vr.. NI\ARV: ><r. SnPaker, I must say after listening to thP hon. mcmhel:" for ~1iJlinp;ate ('lr. Smallwood), Sir, it brought b:tck n feeling of nnusta]P:ia.

I thought we were listening to the harrel l'lan all over a.?,idn, Sir. I say that ;vith all due res!lect to the hon. "P. S'M./1 LLHnnn: "The Barrel 'fnn," \Vas a good pro~raJl\C~e. "'R. NEAll,Y: It was a ,~>;ood prop;r=e at1d lvhen I <Vas listening to the hon. r;entleman tellin~; his story there it reminded me 0f "The P.:1rrc.l. linn," dnys and I say that with respect. ''r. Speflker, it p,ives l'lf' great pleasure to fork the motion if vou c:tn do thAt. ' IR. SPI'MT'R: '~'he hon. Leader of the OppoRition. -------- 'IP.. RQf,F.P.TS: "r. Speaker., I \Yish to present nnother petition if 10544

June 111, 197Ci Tape No, 3331 "!R. ROJlF:RTS: there is nobody else wishin~ to speak to the petition presented by the gentleman from Bay of Islands. ~~ . SPFAKER: I presume there are none. '1R . RO'!!ER'I:S: "r.

Sneal<er, this netition comes from the people of Forteau, the Labrador portion of the District of W'-1 - 4 the Straits of nelle Isl~ and I would like to present it because these neonlc have asked me to present it and I believe it ts ri~ht ani! proper it should hc> presc>nted but of course the point of it, Sir, is sadly, it cannot be Franted as will he ohviousl.v. f'ut the praver of. the petition, Sir, is that, "VIe the people of Labradr:>r do hereby petition the Gove-rnme!lt of Newfoundland ancl Lab-r-ador to reconsi<ler the proposal to construct a tunnel from the 'lewfoundland side of the Straits and proceed lvith the tunnel as nreviously planned equally from hath sides.

Tf there is not sufficient funds to do this we <lemand that it he constructed frrm the Labrador side." And it is si.?;ned hv anproximately fifty residents of. the Forteau area. The pc>ti.ti.on took n while to r,et to me. T.t is really part of n much J arp;er petition •1hich I presenter1 several lveeks ar:o heforP the r1eci .sjc,p to shut dmm the construction of the tunne] rendered the entire matter academic. The netition c:lme to me t 11rou?;h the '~i.ndness of the pentleman from 'll'ask:mni (Hr. C0u-lie) and the p;entleman from F.af1 e River ('lr.

Strnclu:m) <·'110 are opP.rating sort of a bush telep:raph in this reRpect ancl T t~:!.sh to thank each of thel'l for their kin~~ess in preRenting it to me. ~1e praver of the petition, Sir, requires no comments. It is a natter of re~ret for us all that the prayer has ~een rendered completely academ:!.c and completely unrealistic by events beyond the control of the petitioners or this House, hopefullv in the control of our courts. I wish to present the petition, Sir, hecause T he1:!.eve these neonle have a r:!.p:ht to have their tdshes 1.0545

Junt> 111, 1970 Tanc No. }331 1':"f -- 5 "fl'. ~()RJ', llTS: 1 ~ nmm in the !louse. I SRY I do so 1olith •rery re:>.l. re~ret J-.ecause I rlo 1.Jish that t\c nrayer of tl-te petiti.on 1./nul c1 he carried out and that t 11e tunnel 1muld go aheRd. T p resent thc netition, Sir. 105411

June 10, 1976 Tape :1332 Tll-1 ~·!". SPF:AY.Ff': Th~ hon . !'le!'1her for LaPoile. "" ~lEArY: ~'r. Speaker, all we can say ahout the petitton :l_s to offer our deepest svmpathy, t'o offer our condolences to the people nn either s:!de of the Straits of Belle Isle who are the victims of t:his cancelling of the tunnel underneath the Straits of :Belle Isle. As my hon. friencl, thP.

Leacler of the Oppos ft:!on, inclj_catecl, the petition rrobably arrivec a little bit la.te, that the tunnel project h:~c' alreacly heen e.ancellen out <lue to circuT"st:mces over wh:!ch we hnve no control, cancelled nut by Jack of co-operation from the r,nverrunent an<'! the :mthori t.ies 1.n the 1'rovince of nuebec. NoH to aclcl i.nsult to in1nr~·. l'r. Speaker, that crowd are over there now rnnninp ~leHfie joi'"es on the rac11.o stat:!ons and the television stlltions all day lonr..

J think ve should take steps :!n this Prov~nce tn counter that sort of th:!ng or !'laybe it 1s better to ir:nore :!.t,I clo not kPoH. On the ~uehec stations? nn the ()uebec stations, rlay and n:lp:ht all they are cloinr is rehashin!' French ranf!dian jokes of ten y eprs apo. P.ut they seem to be carry:!nf on a concentrate.cl propagancla caiT'pai!!fl nm' in the Province of Quebec, especially in !!ontreal, on the rnd:! .o stations, tell:!np; 'ie ,~ fie jnkes !lay and n:l p:ht.

The people are barraged, hP!'le.ir,et'l ~nt1 T helieve we shnu]r1 colTlnl~tin, we !'hnnld put a complcdnt jn off:!d .11lly frnm this rro":lnce to the rnr and put a stop to it or ll'ayhe :It is better to ignore it, I r'!o not knovT.· Bnt certainly - roul c1 they r'!o sol'lethinr;? ~.NEARY: The rPTf: would certainly :Intervene and put a stop to :It. There are all ~·:fnds of publ :!cations being put out :In the Province of Quebec, Newfie joke books anr'! all that sort of th:lng. ~'r.

Speaker, a] l th:ls is clo:!.nr; :!.s .iust adcUng :Insult to injury ann although I support the prayer of the petitinn, Sir, the only thinp: we can rlo at thil! particular !'1oment is to offer our sympathy to all those . people who will not get employment as a result of that project being cancelled this year. 10547

Tape 3332 H-2 ANSHERS TO OUESTIONS FOR t-.l!IICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: The hon. l':ln~ster of F.i'ucat:lon. Y" HOTTST'.: The answer for~ numher of ~uestions, No. 4~2, 559, r,r)l,, 4?.7 - tho l'l~ml>er for T\eUcvue ('lr. ralJan) - and <1uest:lon 590, tl1e m0mher for T.1'Pn1l e (~!r. ~learv) . NJ TJ"lN. ~IF.''lWl': T·lhnt 1 s tlutt one ahout? ___ _!1111'~13_:_ The Jeas:lnr of t~e rep:ional collep-e. 'JT>AJ, Ol'ES':"IONS: :'\;e hon. Le<1ner of the Opposition. 1'"'. T''111"PT~: '!'hank yon, l 1r. Spenker. "Y e1uestion, Sir, would re l>ef:t T •·•nul i' th inlc to the llouse Le<1.r'ler, most appropri .?te 1 y.

"erh;opl': if it i" not ;.ppropd "'te fo:r him for either hi~'< col lea rue, tl•" "in:Tster of ne,1th or his co1learue, the ":ln:lster of ~anpower :mn Tnr'uPtri:t] "'<'latinnR or the minister in the •louse T l·no~' ~<re :ware oF th• events th.1t p-'!Rsei' t~:ls morn:lnr: at the r.r.ace General !'<'spital hen• in ~t. ,Tohn 's ;mc1 of the possihUHy of ral"i f:l cat:! om< grow:lnr out of them. roulil the m:ln:!ster Jet us knm-r ple<1.se r-•hl't the pos:ltion oF thf' rovermnent is v.dth respect to tl1e!<e matters and P.l'ecific:l'llY r··hat st!'ps the rover.n.,ent are taldnr to ensure thnt there is no int<>rrllpt:l on :In the pro"ision of hospital servi('.es, eTT'erpency nnd rf'~ulnr hospitn1 services tc- the people of th:ls city an<" "'ls0 of the> are.'\ of tlds Province serve<" hy the hospitaJs in t~is city. '"'. 'lJ'J.LS: T'1e >'hd ster nf ' ':mJlm~cr and Innustr:l .al l'elat:ion!l T think iF- ftr1 lv convers:mt vith this :>nc1 ••ill am;wer it. 'T'11e 110n. >':lnister of "anpo~oer ann Inclustr:lill "eJ 11tions. :1t tll:lf' til':'" :Is t],,..t Fe h"ve !->Pen in touch with the situat:!on a1J "'nrn:ln? 11ncl :In t01U+ Pith l>oth s:l nes re:tlly of manag;Tl'ent ;mc1 the nn :1 on. ,,,,.. h<!."e not out1 jnec' 1lnytl15nr that pe coulr' c1o ilt this parti c:ular t ;,., hnt FC are keenjnp verv c1 nse t::1bs on :1 t 11nn I aT"! sure th~t <•e jrr~ic,,tinf' of anv nroble"ls ~dth the health services in any of the l10spftf!ls r:>f this .,ature exActly. 10548

Jw•c 1 (), l C17{: T:1pe 1132 Tfl-1 :\.'l ''NI. ''F.MBF.Jl: ft t the lrnc:c, tht~ t i~: all . "t.V.'!t."'"': ~'ven at the rrac:e where tl:e tli~pnrc is oc:currjnr rhe nurs('S :me' t!•e c'octors, of course, are at "'ork . llut we ~o·ill CI'\OAn) t d .th th~ l'inister of J:t-alth ancl our other co1Jeng11CS "'ill hC' keep:i.n~ in touch ~·:lth it all cay Pnd take ~'Pfltcver IICtion th11t l •"fl ,;rht; <'een ncc:essnrv. 'Ie ~~ould t' aturally prefer not to l'et involved a~> fnr a~> tl•e c':l.spnte itself if' CC'Inceme<' hecause of the t!tAt 1t i 11 <:t diRpute. between hlo parties who are not really ~overnii'Cnt hotHPs . 1054 9

June 10, 1976 Tape 3333 PK - 1 1~1{. SPEAKER: Tltc hon. member for LaPoile. ---- -- NR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a question for the hon. ~linister of Education. ~1R. SMALLHOOD: This is a supplementary. ~!R. NEARY: No my question is to the Minister of Education. r1R. SI~LWOOD: On the same subject? ~1R. NEARY: No not on the same subject. MR. SMALLWOOD: Do I lose my chance of a supplementary? MR. NEARY: No you can come back to a supplementary. HR. SMALLWOOD: I would like to ask a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. gentleman for LaPoile yields? ~fR. NEARY: Providing I get my turn, Sir, sure yes. MR.

SPEAKER: If the hon. gentleman for LaPoile yields then I will recognize the hon. member for Twillingate, and then you can come back. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman does not yield, but if he does not yield now or on another occasion would I still have the right to ask a supplementary question? MR. SPEAKER: Yes. ~ffi. SMALLWOOD: The question that I would like to ask is of the Minister of Justice.

If some body goes to the Supreme Court and gets an injunction in the matter of picketing, and the picketing takes place but in violation of the injunction issued from the Bench or issued by the Supreme Court of the Province, and in violation of that injunction, would the minister tell the House.is there then an necessary and inevitable result, that is to say, can the Court itself enforce its injunction when it is violated,if it is violated? and if not the Court can anyone and does anyone or can the matter just in the natural course of events die on the vine? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. HON. T. A.

HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, any application that is made to a judge of the Supreme Court for an injunction in a dispute of this kind, indeed almost any injunction, is a civil action instituted by one of the parties alleging that there has been a breach of contract

June 10, 1976 Tape 3333 PK - 2 Mr. Rick::nan: and as a result of the continuing breach of contract irreparable damage will be occasioned to the plaint!~£. The Court acting upon the sworn evidence that is placed before it by the party applying for the injunction can and, say in this case, did grant an injunction directly that there be no further picketing, as I understand from what I have read in the press.

If in any action regardless of what the nature of the action is the person against whom the injunction is directed refuses to obey the order of the Court then there is a procedure open again to say the plaintiff to report back to the Court with a sworn evidence showing that indeed the euurt order was not obeyed and the Court can then be asked and has the authority to move to direct that those who disobeyed the court order appear before the judge to show cause why they should not be cited for contempt to court.

That is a civil action taken care of by the court and by the solicitors involved and the officials of the court and the baliffs and the Office of the High Sheriff. MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker - A supplementary? Mr. Speaker, yes. I fully realize that the Minister of Justice of a province or of Canada is not required to give the Rouse legal advice, I am fully aware of that. And so I am not asking for legal advice of the minister, but I am asking him for a piece of simple information.

The picketing of a premises in the matter of an industrial dispute is I believe covered in the Criminal Code of Canada, which lays down how picketing may be done lawfully and what is mnlawful in the matter of picketing, the numbers who may picket, how far apart they must be, what force, if any, they are permitted to use, how they may or may not forcibly prevent people going in and out of the picketed premises and sc on, all laid down in the Criminal Code. If that is violated 10551

.TnN' Hl, 1"7(• Tr.- 1 c'nep th::1t il[:a:ir . r'enenc1 nn soT'leone ot11er th<ln the 1 aw ~HJthor:lt:ies of the irnvinc!' nr of t~ , e nnt.:ion as the C'ase r>:i~ht be tak:inp- actjop? l'r r'oes lt <1epenr' on RC'tinn hein~ tal·en for e::urrrp1e by the premises that are t1,e 11~c ..,f fo"!'"ce 0r violence, prevention of entrv or exit throuph the Tl1e hon. >'in:fst.er af Justice . .,.1re initiative iP the first in~t:mce v'C1U)c1 l:le :fn T'lV 0pinion on th<> p<Trt of the plrdnti.ff ~•\,o hac! 0hta:inecl the injunction In thC' first in~tilnC'c. To this C':1SP thP employer.

Tn tl•e matter reRn~C't ta tho criT'l:inAl c0cle, as I recall jt the cor'e does not set "arth thE" tvpP of picketi,.,r, l•o" ~""''Y· It si1'1ply Sllys that there s1::1J1 he ·· it pr0hih:its non-peacef11l picketinr Fhich therefore bec01'1es nnJ;n ,•f,,l 0F thE" pn:~,.,h:es. Jn that ce1.se of course it is the reRponsib:IJity nf the rttornev Ccncrn] t11 enf0rce the C'ril'lin:1l C'ocle 0f ("'anar1a. l'e 11u't r-enerlllly the firRt step :Is tlol'lt.

There i.s a third step and that is - and we have had thiR si tnntion in tl1if., Pro,rinr.e - vl1ere . on occ~Rion "'- person has openlv anc1 P"'•l :1 cl v announcecl hj£ r>r her jntention of clefyi .nr the courts. In that instnnce once Rince T h<Jve heen fttorney Cenerrtl the rh:lef Jnst1ce, tl te then rhief Jn<>tice nf the Provjnce wrote <Jnc :1Rl:e.c1 that J i1"'1rrr1:i<Jtely init l;ote c.0nten•pt proceer1:!P!"S· r ~,o voulc :ln:ftjnte the!l'?

Th<Jt is at the re')11est r'" the courts :mel ,..f r.ot1ree :1 reo11est 1 H·e that cou~ c1 not nncjer any r i rcn,stances l' e rpfuser.l. !'"o there <tre three but that latter nne ,,,, 0nl v been 11ser1 one<' to my ]·n01.;lec1ge in the host ten years. re,.,cr:1lly it iR n r.:iv:ll <~ction :mc'l the } .~pyers 11cti.nr; f0r the p],..inti Ff nv"iJ of thPir rir;1.,ts l,y roinr h<Jr.J.- to the cnurt anr' rf'port:lnr .~s to c-h<Jt hns l•DT'penerl. Tnc'eer1 soJne of Ollr jncl~es of ln.te have askecl

.Tnne 10, l'l76 Tape 3334 "" m: c:rw liN : "'hen they ,,ave 1'een tsstdnr 1n_jnnct1onf' ! <11'1 to] i1, l h.~ve rea~ :In the press, that they Pantec1 a report bacJr. 'T. ~"JIJ,LPOOn: A report had· froM? HIC:[("JI.N: l'rol"' the sol icitbr for the plaint:i .ff • vr . 1"0'BF"TS: Oh, oh ! ~ "'. HICKYJI.N: Hell all rip-ht the solicitor or the counsel for TB-7 the plair>tiFf. A report hack as to, number one, has the injunction J·,een serveii ancl nlll!'l:er h•o, :J.s :It being oheyecl • ''To! • Ol'.f.PTS : The point is unless the counsel comes back in the court HiJl not know. Yr 11TrJ<'!"J\N: Th<>t f.s rip.;ht. ,.,..

S' !J\LL. (1('n : T ci~ not hear what the J,eil.der of the Opposition sa:lr:l. "'l1e Lear:ler of the Opr>osit ion Sil.id that unJ ess counsel for the plaintiff ce>wes hack to the court, the court will have no way of officially knoldnp what happener:l. llut tn most instances counsel for the pJatntiff Fill go hack to the courts <>nrl report.

Inc:1eec1, as T R<Jy, so!"e juc:1peR have all'1ost l'la(le it a term nor.• of the:lr injunction, that the" nant n report back aR to l•rhat happened. ~<? • SPEAKE~ : '1'he hon. mem'ber for T,aPoile, followed by the hon. ~e111her for C:oncep~ion ~ay. •m NJ\/I.l'!Y: "Y nnest:lon is to the. '~inister of F(lucation. T.Tonli'. the min:IRter teJJ the >7ouse if it iR fact or fiction thC!t four schools in the Province th:l8 ye11r vTill do m,•ay ~.•:fth the rrClcle YT public exarTdnR.ti C"''n s? 1.,.,. SPEAKEP: The hon. l'in:lster of Ec:1ucation. Tt :1 s not fact or fict:!on.

The state1'!.ent :In the paper this morninp ~s the fact that for t~~ or three years we have been talking a11e>ttt cre~iting certain schools in the Province. A lot of efluctors he1ie"e tl">at, vou knm·T, you can flo a better jo), of educattn~ by havinp schools cleter!Tdne Fl,<>t evaluatfon proceflures are r.o:lng to be nsecl . .-\nd <1fter t.-10 or three years of sturly nov the department in conjunction 'd th the other eclucational agencies have des:! ['"Oated four schools to 10553

Tll - 1 n pilot prniert ~n acre~it~tion. Tl111t i .<; trey vi) J not be havinr pnh lic. "''""""in:Jt lnn" fn tri?R ·~ c:rhn0lR in tl1e n ex t tl•'O y e~rR. Th"t iR " pilot proil'rt:

June 10, 1971i TapP. No. 3335 t'R. ITOUSR: l'lnd it is in 1 ine of course with the educ2 .tional thinking across the rest of Canada. 'W.. NEARY: A sup~le~entary. MR. SPP.AKFR: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Ts the minister aware that pilot pro.iects have been conducted in ot~er. Provinces of Canada and especially in Ontario and the effects have been devastating. Would the minister tell the House - ~Ill. SJ'AALLW10D: Devastatingly good or bad. ~fR. • NEAR.

Y : !lad, absolutely bad and they have remedied the situation as <1Uickly as possible before any furtt>er damage is done to the educational syste~ but ~~ill the minister tel] us in these four sc~ools what standards, how will the school, how will the teachers determine the standards of the students who are p,oinp, to graduate as compared to students i.n other schools 1vho ~·rr:!. te the public examination? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ''inister of Education. MR. HOUSE: !'r.

Speaker, there is a committee to be set up of course the Department of Education officials, the committee with the Director of Curriculum and the Testing Division, as well as representatives from the NTA and I believe the Denominational Education Committee. They will be of course doing the same kind of checking they would be doing now if they had a standard examination. The teachers themselves, in conjunction with the committee will be determining the standards. Right now I am sure you are aware that there are certain schools now, and certain pupils now ~•ho do not ~rrite public examinations.

In the Province we have some of the schools when a pupils attains certain marl~ in grade eleven throughout the year he is not requested to write the public examinations and the university Ifill accept the school 1·s standing. But the only thing wrong with that of course is that other universities may not acceot it nor will the trade schools or the other colleges. It is going to be closely scrutinized, that is the 10555

.June 1'1, 1971) Tape No. 3335 N!>1'- 2 MR. !IOU SF.: pu~rose of the Pilot ~roject, closely scrutinized by the department and the other educational ap;encies. '-!R. Nf.Al~.Y: "!r. Speaker, a supplementary question. ~{ll.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. "''R. NEARY: noes the minister think that it is wise at thiF T)Articular moment, in vie~1 of the fact that only a month ago t~1e minister told this House, much to the shock of all the people who were in !istening distance, about all the 50,000 or ,;n,ooo functional illiterates in >ile"•foundl.and.

Does the minister think it is wise then, in view of the fact that we have so many functional illiterates in this Province to tinker with the system at this particular moment. >m. SPF.AKF.R: The hon. }linister of Education. MR. ROUSE: Mr. Speaker, ~ do not think there is any relationship het~·men the numher of functional illiterates we have in the "Province ann this narticnl~tr move. As J say it ia only a pilot pro1 ect. 1 am "'''Rre that there has heen some abuse of this system in· other parts of Canana, hut they h~ve not p;one back in nntario, I want to reflect that, to total puhlic examinations.

And of course there is nohody p;oing to say that we are going to be doinR avay In the filturf' lvith public examinations here. Schools will he acreditC'cl ~tnc1 ·.·/e will still have ~ub] ic examinations for schools that will not receive that acreditation and they will he closely monitored and if w~ see it abused of course we can take away the acredil:ation orocedur<-s. That is when it comes into effect, if it comes into effect. This is only a pilot Project and of course as I said it will be two years before we make any decision on it anywav. 'IR. NEARY: 'Ht. SPEAKER : 'flt. NEARY: /1 further su~plementary, ~ir.

A supf!lementary. t1ould the minister indicate to the House whether it is the minister's offj.cials who are takinp; the initiative in carryin?- out this pilot pro.1ect or is it the bureaucrats in the school hoards? Or if' the initiative taken in the 10556

Jt.me 10, 1976 Tape No . 3335 N11 - 3 m. NEARY~ minister's own department? Rho is responsible for this Sir? MR. SPEA.K'P.R : The hon. Minister of Education. IR. HOUSE: !t is very difficult to determine . There is some initiative taken by the department at the rP~uest of school. boards, at the recp;est of NT/\, but aJ 1 t he educational a~encies I know in the ~rovince have been involved in it and have J!lade recoi!DI\Effidations on it . There have been some - yes from the department I think there has been some initiation . on this . You know "'e have initiated .:t lot of it ft:om the department .

But we have agencies that are a gainst it and that is the re3son why we are not going all hof. . 14e are going as we said with a pilot project and I think we should jus t let tt go for the tt•o vears, j ust test it out and see how it is going to work. 'ffi. NEARY : Then that is two years damage you are going to <lo an a1~fuJ lot of children you know . MR . ROUSE: t•Jell as I mentioned it is going to be closely monitot"ed and I cannot see any dam>tge. Right not~ we have this fifty per cent evaluation by the school and in some cases of co urse i t is even higher than that .

So I cannot f orsee any damage, part -icularly if it is closely monitored . 10557

June 10, 1976 MR. SPEAKER: Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Tape 3336 PK - 1 A supplementary, the hen. member for Trinity- Mr. Speaker, did I hear the minister correctly? Did he suggest that other universities, presumably the Mainland universities and the College of Trades and Technology and the vocational schools would not accept these marks from these accredited schools? This University will,I know that, Memorial University, but what about other universities and other educational institutions, nursing schools and this sort of thing? HR.

HOUSE: When they are accredited.I just said that at the present time we have a system of evaluations. Some of the schools when a pupil reaches a certain mark throughout the·. year in their Grade XI marks,for instance, they are not requested to write the public examination if they are planning to attend Memorial, that is different from the accreditation. The accreditation as far as I understand it would be accepted by the other universities, the trade schools and every other institution. MR. ROWE: MR. HOUSE: MR. ROWE: MR. HOUSE: MR. ROWE: MR. HOUSE: The nursing schools? Yes. The universities across Canada? Right.

Is that, I mean - Accreditation of - HR. ROWE: A further supplementary. Is that what the minister understands, Sir, or is that what the minister knows for sure, because there is quite a difference - I am not permitted to make a speech, Sir, so that is - MR. HOUSE: I am pretty certain of what I say but I can check it out. MR. ROWE: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister undertake to insure this House - MR. HOUSE: ~1R. ROWE: Yes. - that these students who are going through this two year pilot project their marks will be accepted by any post-secondary 10558

June 10, 1976 Tape 3336 PK- 2 MR. ROWE: educational institutions throughout Canada and other post-secondary educational institutions within the Province outside of the University? AN RON. MEMBER: Sure they will. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROWE: That is the whole point. MR. HOUSE: I will undertake to assure it, but as I understand it the Department of Education will give the certificates,the Grade XI certificate as I understand it. Now as I say I will make sure. MR. ROWE: Well that would do it. MR. HOUSE: Yes. MR. ROWE: Thank you. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: A further supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister indicate then what will be on the certificate, will it show the marks they get in Maths and English and that sort of thing? MR. HOUSE: No. MR. NEARY: Well then why do away with - that is the same thing is it not as the public examination? Why do away with it? Or are you just going to depend on the judgment of the teachers and the principal of the school? MR. HOUSE: MR. NEARY: to do it. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HOUSE: Right. Mr. Speaker, it seems to me to be a very sloppy way The bon. Minister of Education.

You know there has been a lot of contention about this kind of thing over the years, teachers themselves say they have been inhibited from doing a good job of teaching, and of course most educators believe that. And we cannot see why a person cannot give a Grade XI certificate if they are qualified as well as they can give a Grade X or Grade IX or anything else down the line. MR. NEARY: Then we will have more functional illerates than we have 10559

June 10, 1976 Tape 3336 PK- 3 Mr. Neary: now if that is the system we are going to use. MR. SPEAKER: I will allow one more further supplementary and then I will recognize the hon. member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan). The hon.member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: I think we are reaching the crux of the matter now, Sir. Can I ask the minister this, in the certificate that these students get, the Provincial certificate that these students get on a pilot project,will that certificate be any different from the certificate that they would get as a result of writing public examinations?

Because if there is a difference that is the problem, if these certificates are the same the problem is solved. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: I think they will be the same, but as I said - SOME RON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. HOUSE: I think they will be the same. I think they will be issued by the department and will be the same. I just think that, I said I would get the documentation and provide it tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. A supplementary, Hr. Speaker.

We have had quite a number, and time pe~itting we can always come back, but I think there might be hon. members who have other subjects they wish to ask questions on. HR. NOLAN: A question, Hr. Speaker, for the Minister of Justice. In view of the fact that there would appear from all news reports to be much evidence of increased vandalism not only in St. John's but in my own district as well, what steps, if any, is the minister preparec to take and to announce to this House and to the public as to extra patrols and so on that will protect public property that is now being vandalized, damaged, stolen and so on?

MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: I answered that same question last week, I think the hon. gentleman was absent from the House at the time. Within the City of St. John's the Newfoundland Constabularly are implementing the booster shift system in this year which was so effective last 105GO

June 10, 1976 Tape 3336 PK - 4 'tr. Hickman: Summer which is the time of high rate of vandalism. And again for instance in t,he hon. gentleman's district where there has been an indication of some problems there the R.C .M.P. have been asked and will implement whatever methods are necessary to enforce and maintain law and order , and I do not like that phrase because that implies there is grea t disorder, but there are bound to be problems unfortunate ly of problems in various parts of Canada, and Newfoundland during the year, and the thing that has to be made clear to the public is that we have in Newfoundland approximately 800 police officers which must be 10Sfi1

Jnne Hl, l'l76 T;1pe 3337 IR-1 ~ T . .-- !L,TC~!':".~ N : t 1 1(~ 1 nTf<'St per C<'!lit, of anvuhere in ran<1~n ,,,t,o respond very qtdcl·lv ~nr1 tl,,.t the pcr>ple 1>dl 1 realize anr1 thnt they ~d] 1 act !'IS R rleterrent, thnt tl•rdr ch:tncf's of npprPhE>nsion are very hifh. And apprE'hP.nilerl ,,,hiJst thP. rroT-.'1" hl'ls ".ot nor srou~r1 it evPr hRve nor vill i.t ever 'l:we the rir:ht t;o tell R c0nrt or 11 .inclp;c '\o"hnt I'! Rentense shon1CI be.

The crm•'!l proRecut0rs ,-.711.1 ancl hnve heen r.'lrat·•inp; to tl·e 11ttentirm of tbe:-. court the need for sent<'nses tl·1at act as a cleterrent a.nrl we hnve been seeinr this hr~penjn~ very effectively in this Province, r"rticu.larlv in the last •rear or eir:hteen months, to thE' extent thRt T nm noH f,cer' •·dth a housinr pr.0blem in another institution. A !':11pp1e!"rnt!lrv, l'r. Spcnker. Is the ll'jn:fster ""'nrc that there are certaiP ;~reRs l••here app;~rently vanr1al:fsl" and the like hcs rlropperl snhr.t11nti ;1] 1 v th:m1'" to perh1'1.ps tl1e Action A of a mRP,i strRte?

T refer as an ex;mn]e - :md T a!" subject to correct~nn - the hon. "1ni,;ter of' l-'unidpa) \f'f?i.rs "re, 0r r1istrir.t. 1 l,elieve T hearCI nnt in th:'l.t are;~ or some,<here sol"e member of the "ouse toln me that in ,;n,..e areas the l"il!'i str.<~te ll>~c re;~llv hore r.'lo~m an<' thE're h~<s heen 1' «:!r:nHic.,nt ilrop. 'l'}oe question T have for the minister :!.s this: ".1s tl1p l"inistr:r A.sl·crl the ,.,c"l'!T'-vl1o have a p:reat joh T kno~T pRtrollfnr. the hirh<•RVS - to ret h.<~c1'. :Into the C01'11"tmities, into Foxtrap, r·ell i prel's, Sep] r:ove .<~nd so on?

You cRnnot protect SeA.] Cove when yr.u are c'r1v:fn ~ a] onr; Topsa:!l lli!'ht·•av. TI-t at is the question. '"'. !':PEAYJlT>: The hon. ''tnister of Justice. ''r. Sperker, the "C:>-'P have heen and are involved in protectinr thE' col'"t11ttn :i ties :i.T' }levfotmclland at this time to an extent not hi thPrto knm'11. L?,;t year the ~rM' :Imp] el!lE'nterl :In Ne~1fotmc:1land a cn!"Munity rel,.ti0nR prop-ratTIII'e Hhich again has been very effective.

J rec11J.l th•t J ;:ost ve:tr or the ye11.r before J Rl"t some pentle!T'.-m w:l.th sot"'Cthinr ] ess th:m a C0l"'"enrlahl e !'lotive carne c'!otm from Toronto. and rtj rl n stnrly amotip:Rt a prot•p of' h:f'"h sc"oo] stutlents :In .a to'!m in r.entral Ne•.•founcU ;onr1 Rnr'l thf' report ,,ms not very flatterinp to,·mrils the "C>'T'. neforc I h?r time to respond to it to "'Y great ne1 :i p.:ht the 10562

June l!'J, l ')7fi Tll;'~ 1317 TTl-2 ''1'. 1-JTrT\"~N: m;tvor of thitt tC'1'T1, the hencls of the churches out tll ere and othen; •. ,ere on not on])' rle!'eni1:1np. the PO'J' hut setting forth "'hat is happening in 'le1.Jfounc'J nnd <>s n resu] t of thiF community inVC']veMent. nne thinr. :fs - ani! I l1o-pe nnh.och• h e re th:fnks that •·•e can hnvf' an r>r>·T T>Oli c.e off:!

C'.Pr on the r.orner of every Jane ancl outside of everyhc-cly'" >on. ~TriT , N': ------- ret thf''" ont.~i rlc the car. r.et the po] :1 ce ontsi re the ''"' · TITC':K".-I.N: Pol:lce on foot, of course ~1 e hnve to reali:>:e t bat '"" nre nm.r in the til"e pl,en ,,·p h.'lv c Motor vehicles nnrl if the people •!ho hre11J. the l;w 11.re in T"otor cars, it :! 1] behooves anyone to put 11 mnn on ~oat to ckw e th<1t T'1otor cnr. "e 1dl J. not cntcl1 theY'!.

Jlut J .<tm VP.ry, ve.rv rl.ensed 1dth t "<, e. col'll'lunitv :!mmJve.-.ent and the success of the COI"m11n:! ty involveMent of the J'C~'P throuchout Newfoundland Phere they are t;oldn p: younf; people, practically every tmro naP - who is the coach of tht?. h nsPbal1 ten!" and the backetl,a] J teal'! ani1 the hocl"e y tel'!"? f.n T'rJ-'J' officer. Pnrt of their programme.

They ?;et to thP.RP penp1 e >tnd these younp people underRt<~nd the i""port;mce of oheyin" the llll•' Rnd this :1 R vhy '''e have been h:lVinr- le!"s trnuhle in these 1;,r:>er nrhRn 11reas nf the Province thi>t c""'e 1-ritl,in the respnns1J,i1 :l.t y of the nrm. ~ut '··'henever ther~ if': an i.ndic!'!tinn th~>t. t h ere :Is R particular are>t in •1e1.•founrJJ and, th;ot there :! ~" !lome vanc1aU .slT' increase, then the 1'r.' ·1J' recieves instruct:!ons to iT!1T'1ediately tal'.e Hhatever preventive mel'.sures are neccsl'rrry to curl , that and they have rnet ":1 th :1 pre at de a] of succes,;.

I'll. , •lOLA : .~ . further suppJ el!'entary, l 'r. Speaker . ... ,... ST'EAYET': I ~>!1.11 allow nne further supplementary. }ffi. NOLAN: The Minister 11 mo!'lent ago referred to the fact that he :ls prourl 11pparentJy of the. numhcr of conv:!.ct:!ons or people ca.u!!ht and sr on. I me11n js the minister av1are of the fact that ·there are so many <JctR of V11ni1al:fsm i.r> this Prov:fnce includinp "'Y Ot·m ilistr:!ct th;.t-as 1\n example one hnl!'e was broken into recently, a man trying to bu:lld out 10563

.JHne ,,., ' , 1"7(, r~nP. 1137 .. fl. ~;rn .. "~': - --- - - h~ rlc>e~ never f'Xr('ct tc> "Ct 1-Acl<. Is he ""'are tl>nt people at:e fee up ' 'ith tl1e nclm->r>istrAtion c>f ~nsti~e <'Inc t)1ey cio not even bother to re.port vctn<'<>lis,. "nY"'ore in thjs Province1 They ,,re c'iscour<'!r;ecl. Js the mfnister ~~re of thAt? nrcler, pJ.ease! 0rcler, nJease! T T"ust r1:1reet the hrm . . ~>entlel'lan to ,..y ri!"l">t thAt

June 10, 1971i tnpe 13311 ',._ sPr .AKF.l) : ' ) ~. ', thP n•1cst ion~ ,;hC\ttlrl not he r.~in) sreecheg or even follo"·en by a ~eri~,; .,· of quest1ons, ~nrt of rhP.tndcn]. nne can make <' speech in questi<'n ~Pr~s. One 1~ not re~orni?e~ rur:!nF ~uestion P~riod to ~o that. '!'he hC>n . "in1stcr of Justice. •'T' 11Jf"V''.'.N: t ar> a"11re of several thinp.s. t arn aPare of the ~'act t•,at tl)e rate of incre11!':e 1n vnnclaliiM' in Newfoundland is the J.o~·est in t';moc't>. t rlo not 111\Y thAt. Th11t is said by the ,'\"'socia tion C'f fflj~fs of Polf~c of l"pn:>r~t 1-ho ret their jnfol"ll't>tion frol'!

Statistics rnnAc'n.

T ""' 1ware th11t S<'l"'tl people do not report crimes and 1 f they cln not rerort crires, V thPy c'o not -report hllvinr seen the ~oii'I"1!'H;ion of cdl"e tl)ey lose- thC' ris- ht to complain bec;wse ·~e h11ve to look to cl ti 7.ens ~'~'o are prep:> reel to VC'Iluntee-r the eviclence so that •·•e can fPC cnnvictjons. '·'e tlo 'lOt have 11 police !':tAte ht>re ..-here you can pull so~t'one in ou r C'f susp1 ci (ln nnc.l pnt hil'l :In cnnrt nnd say, "Your llonour T helit'vC th:tt .John Jones C<'ITIIIl:ltterl an oHen"'e thcrefotc convict h irn. '' V"" h:tve to put in the "'' tness """ a person ._,ho sa"· 1t . !'N,r j r n per !'Inn ~·ho ~ees thet offense 1-einp co.....,it tecl cl~r.i. cle~< to Je>ol< the or.her ""Y vhen ht> C'IT she is in a po1=11tjnn to ~e t n C\onv:lctiC'n T "''h Fit th:>t th'lt r>"rson ab d1cates h1s or her r 1r.ht to P"t fnrt•mntely thnt is nC>t the attitude oF re,.rons:Jhle cHJ:o:ens in ·~e~-fnunclland :mrl that is wl-v T rep e~r that t lte comrlct,on rate , thl' opprl' hen,.ion rnte Jn ''e·.,foundland is increas1nr all the t11!1C rmd I rhinl· thllt t he sen tense~ are realistic. l'rn•-m roes r<'t h:we th~ ripht nor should ever hllve the r1p.ht to 1nfluenc.¢. th~ tl~d<::Jon of thP i11tlpe or the !'entenl'!e of a juc're in anv wny.

Titey nrr total lv anc' ;ot.,,.ollltely inrependent and the cro1m 1 1' rir.ht :Is the I'P.n•e as rtuqt of the ncC\usect . ~'T' . f. 'ALL''I'ClTl: "r. SpP.akl' r, 11 supp)ementary. • ,.unrJe~entn ry? T think the hon. gentlernPn has n~~e~ a suppli'F ~n tarv. T t h rn~· ry>;elt: on Your nonour ' s l'lercy. J <'esretately 10565 ,· .· ..

.'nne In, l976 T~tpe 3338 IB-2 ""nt to a,;:l: a "upplet'l~ntC"rV Qt1<"Stion of tre hrm. the Attornev r.ener;t]. Jlut Your Ponnnr 1-l"s rulecl that he would allo>' no more suppJementaries. T" :1 T'111tte-r:- of !'1nst ll"t?ent imp<'rtance, pub~ :lc :f.rl'ortance cnrPi'l U!J, t0 111'\l:, if jt is rat1rmn1 11nrl i.!"portant requirinr " reply, rmulcl not Yonr T'onnnr h~ to1erari .t even thnup;h, ~·r. Speal-.er, you h:1ve ru~er1 th"t vnu wou l <l al1oP cmly one rn.ore surrlementRry? 'J'h~s is a terribly vi tal 1'111 tter, J aP en "orcewent 'In Ne1,rfoundJ an<l.

Tt is t.errihJ v irnort:mt :mr1 T. r1esperate1 v F;'!Ot to as1· ;mother Stipp] P.l"Pntary, not ::m arp;ul!'entat:!ve <'De hut a T'l<>ttt>r nf ~nfomaUon fro,.., the ":ln:!ster of Justice. "ith r<>"l""ct te> "ttpp1e!"ent<Jdes, the rule i." fairly !"ener<Jl. It <tJJoHs t.hr1t "certain nt.l'!nher C'>f suppJementaries- :It c:lopp not "pedfv ho•·' T"<Jnv - nnn states at the <l:lscret:l .on of the ;,pc:~ker.

The n1l Ps tl,11t T use for T'lY own ?ui<lance is number one, t1,e <'enentl :Interest in the stt1,ject and 'Rlso whether there appeRr to he ot',er ll'eT"1·,ers ,.rlHl '<ou1r' rles:lre to aslc ouestions on other subjectA. m0 a VE"TV J:tT"f'e PXtent T I,;'Vf' to p1111pe tre interest of the J-Tonse :In t"•.'\1: f>Rrti cul:>r rnlltter. Tf no 'wn. meT!'her takes except1cm - 1n~eer1 t'•ere 1s ne> nee<' for ""e to, J r1n not tl•inlt, preface w:l.th that. rerta:!nJ v thi.s is 11 suhject in r,+lich there llppe;n:s to be f'.reat interest Rnn T ,dn certRinly recc-pn:!?:e thP. hnn. pentleman for a supplementary.

""ALL "()()n : --- I 1\.TI' r'eeply grateful to Your Tionour. Fhat I ~,a. ntec1 tn M:k thf' Y.in:!ster of Jmot i ce i.s tlds. 'T'he reR !'on I :=~sl < it :1!' hecaue:e T tllink ;1)most tlte ''hole popu1::ltion of our Province :Is concerner1 1n t hi s ones ti nn. 'T'I,e han.

T"emher for r:oncepti on 'Ray Se>nth (~'r. }1olan) "nnom:, r11tl""r tl1~n "sld.np H '>11t :It :Is to lay the fottnc1<~t5on for the PUesrinn - Pllnt:lnp morE" Joc11J. pol:lcinp,ancl aJl ov~>r tht> Province yo11 f'E't thnt ~ort of thin~. ~ Th::~t T T•'llnt to ::~Ak the T!l :l nister i"' this: ro!'ferlerat:lon - Pe ~'ould hRve 11 pol :!cel'lan stRtionec1 in 'Bay l'oherts and 10566

Tape 333R IR-3 "'" !': •ALLY.'f\01': vou Foulcl have another one or two stattonec:l in Carhonear and so on ancJ they ••ould patroJ on foot and do the local poHce ,,•ork of the place for the Province under the Ne,rroundlanc Constabulary - as he.tPeeh that systel'l ••hich hacl T think 2nn or 300 pol:!cel"len altogetlJer in the r,•hole 105117

.tunc 10, l Q]f.

Ti!pc 'lo . 3339 ~.....!"~lJ\LT.tiC'On :. of illl'wfouncll :m<l at thrt time. ancl the modern Qf:MT> system of I'VI'rythlnr. in motor Vf'htcle and ra<lar nntl whnt rio vou C':tll 1. t, tal ktnr. on th<> rnd1 o tclerhone, with that modern systl'm ns ben1een the two, is there anywhere !Tt-l - ] in Cnnadn, whe rc tl ~ ROIP t>n?,.'l~ed hy any Province, operates somewhat o:ts our NE>wfoundlanrl r.onstabulary used to nperate uhl'n thcv .,erP the Police Foy-cp of ~ewfoundland? no they Jo that ilnywhcrC' nnrl tf not is there some way of havinr. a coP>I"romi.se l•l't••<'cn thP. old 'llewfoun<lland Constab \Jlat"y system of local pol ic~mcn and the modern RC~W syste~?

I s there n coml"rol'lise? ~o~ the whole of Newfoundland would like to have the answet" to that a~ d I a~ not askinr. it to enharrass the mtn'l.st er. Th<' hon . ''inister l'f .lustict> . '!J>. !ftC!QIAN: ~r. SuPnkf'r, to an~wer it may tnke a ouest'l.on fullv hec;wtH' ""rt of it i.s rohilosophy and nart of it is IHIA<'d on experif'lncc. Tt is ~oins to take a lon~ t1.!"'e. ri.r.,tly the> l'CHr>, ur..dcr the~r rt"I'Vinci'll c:Cintt"acts, implement rrettv much t!oJe s'l'r.lc t)'l>C of policinr. throutthout r~ n ~d~ .

They ~l~o (lncratc, ns they do in this Province>. i~ SOI'I<' areas und<'r a municipal contract. llo1• ahout "orner llroolr? ror fnstllnC.t> tn rot"ncr nrook and l ~hrador C'ity ,.,. have nuniri n:>l contrac ts ;mrl thPr" ""<' h:>ve alloteci, 1n f."Jct In roml'r r.roo' · " ~t"ent •ll'::tl of font Nltrol fn the ~<hnopin<> til s t rt rr of thnt tmm. ''l' ITTQ{'VI.'l: Foot natrol, sil"il11r to uhat the 'lewfoundl;::nrl ""nl':tal •ulru: y f\1' in C:t . . J,lm ' s hccausc it is n different tyne ?f ~o11.clr~, nql 1.c ln8 1 11rrP urhan centres .

In the rural areas wherE> you h11vC' · ronr>lc srre.,,l out I havP. some 1,rave clouhts 1 0:, tiS

Tnne No . 13"1" ~~~ · - 2 '<r.. 11 TC"I('VI'!: •1heth l"r today thP man on f(lot 'ln tht> manner 'ln w't'lch thl' •:t>wfo11nrllan<l \.o:'lstal>ulurv used to perfo-rm in t he t•-:rnties nnd rarl v thi rti<!s, until the l':or11ai.ssion of C:overnment c:une alon?,, with t he Me<Jfoundlnnd 'Onne.er force , whethe r that 1~ouln he effec tive . vle cnnnot ove.rlool~ tht> f<Jct that nrohahl.y the most serious cT::I.mes that are comm.itted in Newfoundland today nrc committed in motor vehicles . '!'he inma!re.d clriv er, I am bold enou gh to sug~es t , is c~~ittine a ~ar ~(I r e ser ious crL~e than the fourteen year old t.zho tltrol'5 a rQCY through n windo w, l:ec ause his c.-ire POf>S rir. ht to the life and s:'lfet:r of innocent people on the hi~ln·ay .

The vandal i~tm , which :!.s a senseless act , ,,•hich nobody can understand liS it deals no re~1a r d to the pt>rson C(lrr;rlttin~ it. There is n~ monet<>ry tE'war<l to - ·m . S'VIJ.t.Hnnn: T t is psycholor.ical rerhaps . Mr . l!li':Kl"AN: - the pcT:son who b reaks a windo11 or ~oes al ong and tears un public f ix tur es anrl that sort of thin~ . P.e get s rot~in~ out of it . 'IR . NOLA'!: J.ike the swinr,s belong~ to the ~~h:'lbilitntion - ~m .

Joll CKMAN: Or t hey po into a Play~ roun d , their oo;om play~tr ound , nut thPrc bv "'ell meanln~ reonle to meet the needs and the df'•n:tnrls of the vou th who say , "ThP. reas on why we commit acts of vand11l ism 1 s bPcal)Se you do not provide us with recreational facfH t:les . '' Anrl you pr ovidP. th<> recr eati onal faciliti<!s sntl thP. firJ>t facili t y thnt th~y go in and destroy, tmntin~ly destroy a r E' thP facili t ies that they hnve been clemandinA . '!P. • S~tALLimOD: Yes . 'fR . niC:IC'IA'l: And how you rationa lize tha.r. t4hat the reason - ~fP. S''ALL~mon: Just sick depravity .

"ffi • I! tCI<I".N-1: What the reason is I de not know . You will ~et a mar. H ke "'r . Jame s 11cC:rath, ~. 'P ., who will arr.ue very convincingly

June lf), l97fi Tape No. 3339 NH - 3 l!R. TTIC:KMAN: that the Board of Broadcast Governors are heing very rlerelict in their duty with respect to the kind of television progrrunme, programmes of violence thRt thev allow to he sho1m across Canada. Whatever the reason is I do not know. Another reason may be that like it or not our young peonle are far more affluent today but - HR. NOLAN: Is the minister aware that somr.ti~es in North America they are now looking at the state paying for th<> vandalism? ~~R. HII.KMAN: T am not <~ware that there are places in Nc>rth America, l'r.

Speaker, where they are looking at the state paying for the vandalism. I am aware that in one or two states - '"R. SHALUJf)OD: You mean for the damage? ~fJL NOLAN: Yes • They got no other protection. ~. HI\.KMAN: - in one or two states of the Union, because that would be a prettv far reaching principle. It would ~ave to he a very l><•althy state T suggest, that would take on that. 1 1vould like - '>!R. NnLAN: H0 ll that is an admission of how hir, this thing is. l"!l. HTC:KMAN: T would much rath<>r see public funds ROinp.; into le~al aid to he perfectly frank, and into rehabilitation, etc. - I'R.

Nl"lT.AN: 1 1muld likE' to see the people who '"ere robbed naid hack. ~~- PTCKMAN: - ~oing into rehabilitation centres and T fully "Pnredate, ~ lr. Speaker, that today in Nclrth A!'lerica and ~etvfoundlanrl is no exception, the pendulum is swinging to the right, the nail them ann iai] them philosophy is the one that is in vogue and it is becominp: harder and harder and harder to convince Jcp,is1ators, to convince taxpaver.s that money should go into the rPhahiJitntive nrocess, to tr.v and get these voung people before 1t 5!" to0 !ate on the rip:ht tr.ack so that they will not hecome ~Ahitual criminals. 'fR.

NF:NlY: SnAre the ron And spoil the child. 'IP. !ITCYl'~A"l: 'l11ere is no better example than in the 'Prnvince of 10570

.June 10, 1976 Tape No . 3339 ln-1 - 4 'Ill . niC:IQ>!A.lll: 'lowfountll.nncl, where the John Howard Society c.'ln ~o from door to door to ~ll the merchant princes who are cor.~pla:inimt nhnut their windows being broken and who coiiiJ)lain hecausl' <1 youn~ hoy rloe~: not get three or four ~ea:s in jail r.,r hreakinr, n, shoo window and the y cannot raise m.ore thnn ~h.n00 in the Province of ~ewfoundland for rehabilita tion of offenders, he they hardened criminals, he they ,ieuvenile delinquent~:. 1057 1

June 10, 1'171' interprAt~tion of the thirtv minutAs in order t0 g~~ the ~fnf~rer "n oprortn1"ity t<' rep]v. 'fP. S".ALL1'00Tl: TR that a cnpitaJ L or a small T., Your Honour? nnnEPS C1F TilE Tl/\Y: A h:ill, "An Act To A!'lt>nr1 T.he Local ~chooJ Tax .Act." (1111] No. 71) '""' SPENCEr: ' "' T'J.IGT'T: Tl1e 11on. ~e,.,ber for Hi_nnsor-Buchans. 'T'h:mJ.- von, "r. Speaker. Had not the ti"le f0r "~l0Urm'lent ~01'le. h:1rl ~~e 1·;u1 10nother l"inntes on the clock I • .. mul~ T.~-1 blVP r,rounr up ~y remarks on this anendl"ent.

So I FUl, do so no'"· 1 clo nnt vish to l•e rt>pPt1tions. 'l'l1p cn1111'lent.s nnd the ohserv<~tions T ,.,,~e, ''r. Spe ... ker, I w0ul c1 !•ope that thP l"inister ,,.i] l address r.;,.,seJf to those ~n'"'JT'Pnts anc1 ohse'!"Vations.

For this side I woulcl sa•r thRt it is very rl:iff.icult if you :1rP catej!:ori.cally opposen to a hi 11, if' ynu are c"tepar:i cal ly opposed to the me tho~ of collect:inr; "'~l•nol tn::<"PR llS Hi tnessE'cl torlay in Newf.otmcll r:m<'l by thP school tax ~atl1or:l tv, tl1en I cannot see how you can he for an al"end!'lent that si111ply incrNlses t\Je ahil:ity of the school tax authority people to coJJect !Onre money. T •H"oulc J:!l<e the minister ~!}len he speaks to indicate thP 11'a:ln purpose of th:~t ~mcnr'l111cnt.

Tt 1s not as he said •-rhen he mare his st;~te~ent that it i .<; n tir1yinr np piece of Jerislat:ion. It is an attel"'pt to :lncr.e1'RP. the revc•ntJP o" the scl·onl ta:>: atJthorit:Jcs anr any inc1-1vicluaJ in tlds Province ,,,ho is nnp0sP.r1 to th:-~t l"!ethoc' of tax:>t:l0n because it is rE-pressin~, t-hP.n T r'o not Re~ h01J hp rnn support the a~enc',.,<:>nt. ~'r. !"p•,l<er, T nonlcl l1ope tl,nt thP. rdn:lster 1'C11dd aclcress h inself to p:lrtfrnlarlv the one 1Jhere ,.m are ro:!nr; to give eMploye; .<; thP r1 rht to r'eCinct s~l:o0l tm<rs "ro~· payroll, the abatement.

Tn "'"l'rortinp thr sc-.hool tflx <1nthorit:ies one of the I'!Tf"Wncnts l'IC'r'e to c'efPnr':inr school t.,x llnrhorities and hv the minister in th)r; i'nusc, "r. ~p0akrr, w1s th<"lt it WJuld p;ive l:e1Jfounc1]and a rirl1t,it ,,•oulcl r i"C' 11s 'I •-'"'Y to :1,-;scss ::md Til :i se school taxes fro~ 1 arp;P corporaticms 10572

J1tne 1n, 1~71\ TApe 3340 IR-2 l"'l , n.ICHT: th.H Clthct"Wise ~· ouJd not he ta.~ble. 1: <:"An think of one. ~~ J th:lnl' for :lnstronce t<DA rc~errctl to. ~cw we 11re AAI<Snr to rive the rdn1,..ter or the rep~ r~Pnt rf :~ucatfcn or the povern~nt the p~er for tax ahate~ents rn lP r ~e corporattons.

That :Is n little clifficult to tmders t 3ncl . r.ert Ainl y one day they are justif.y:lnr the school tax autho r :lt1es hy ~<ny:inr that this :Is the only rrenns pO$Aihle to have r r<'nt C'e>rpon~tie>nA contribute to school taxe s nnri A little lnter they Are l'i~>yin<> 1-'e need thl' power to ha ve tnx easerrentl'i or abatements on t hese corporatiC'f1S. I 1mulc\ JH·e to see tl'>e 'll:ln:lster ad~res"' hil"self to that pnrt:lc:u1sor aST""Ct of the Al"o:m<ll"''nt. tr . 'pe11ker, thAt :il'i ~>hont All I hnvc to aclt1 e>r to ~"<~Y to the amencll"ent . ·­.. ''1'. 1. n:w : The hon . mel!'her f or Terra ~:ovp. ''r.

Spe:1'1-cr, T inst ~.·ant to say a fet·· worrls on i:h:ls 1:>:11] . T \filS not here ycAterd11y ~·hen ~·e were tlebat:int' th:f.s RO 1 do not kno~1 ••h2t ~»t!' RP:Ic' prec:lsrly but T ~ust t.r;mtecl. to raise M)l cli ssentinl' 'Je>ice to tl'is h:lll tl]OT'f'; 1..-ith thnt of ny co1Jeapue11 and suffice 1t tc sav that this par ty 's pos:ltil'n is PeJJ-known I am sure to the tiP.\JfonncllAncl people ~o>:l th re spec t tt) school taxes . It has heen ""'ll Articulate'' ;md ~·P.ll enunciated and certainly thP re~tsons for w'ly tJe t':!sapre<> Pi.th the school tnx have heen clearly en1mciated As wrll . !lo,•cver, ·•r.

Speaker, I am !"\Ire that t~e !'l:lnister sees thP. necess:l ty for this bi.ll :~s t-•as poin ter' out is to refine t he th:lnr to tirly up the School Tax Act . for nA to ar r ee ~.ritJ• this hel'ause our pos:lt:l .c>n is that , you lmoH, ho~· c11n }'1\Ur refine soi!Jething, hl'w c~>n ynu ticlv up sol"Cth1ng that shoul~ he in existence.

How can you t1tly up or hN·· can YNI re fine so!'lethinf. thnt 10houJ t,l he abolished? ::o, yo11 !<now, our stanrl, as T have s11irl, is clearly enunciatec' :In this respect ancl :It is cer tainly t.rell known . 'Rut on the basi." of the "mole situAtion I cannot see that t he ~ c hool Tax 7-ilJ here, the mnendrent, does anythinp, to certainly rnhnnse the f'ttitucle that people have towarc's the school t8XeA. 10573

"ll. Ll!SH: :\re t<<'O or U'ree il"portant thinrs ,,,i th respect to school tax that mnst he l'"'Pt in l"i.nr for tl1e success in coJlectinp monies. One IB-~ of cmtrse is certainly tha~ if we are to 7et adequate revenues fro!!' t~e local t11xes tlwt tbe people and politictans too must feel that the burc1en of the tf'xes is (11.stributec1 fairly, t11at n :Is 1'I1 eC]nitable t:~:< .qnd it is :1nytldnr hut C<lttHahle. There :Is n0thing :!n this act to make snr~ that it :is nore P.<lUitable than what it now is. Secondly of c0nrse, that everybody I"USt be assurer that everybor y assesser \••i]] pay.

T t 111nk roaybe that there certainly 1'l.re c:>ne c:>r tPo thin~s here that the ninister is aitning at to achieve that. Put in orc1er for a t<lY t0 he successful that must be certa1nlv one 0f the requ:frel!'Pnts tlH'It everyhody assessed must pay. I am not sure th<lt that is happeninr tmder the present set up. I all' sure that there are a Jot of people . vrl1o are not pay:!ng. As a matter of fact '1: tl,inl < T T"enti oned in tlds l]cmsc so!"e til'1P. ar:o that the St.

John's t;o~ ;mtbor1ty HM> inrleerl b:winr so!T'e prohletns collectinr frorr business e!"t<Jhlishl"'ents. ro certt'\)n]y the Tax Act must emmre that everybody p:lyS ff tt fp to bP SUCCC!"Sfu]. nf cC'ttrse <1lonr: •dt\1 tl1"t ide<~ that wAys And means must bP estnhl j sher1 to enforce the call ection of the outstani!1nr>: aroounts.

T see nnth1np: 1n thjs ld)l that vill rea1ly <"o that. /llthout'h - ancl T i'o <rant to "c1i!rP.ss P'yse] f to a coupJ e of th:lngs there ,,,j th the unclerstanrlin~ and rdth the preaT"hle, of' course, that we no not support any of it. n11t there 11re 11 couple of questions thRt T \·rouJ d J il<€ tn raise, not 1n ~1e nr~er or priority. ?inmber three t<•]lich js to pennjt authnrit1.es to ch11rge in.tl'!r<?st nn arre,rs up to tPl\lve. per cent rather than a l'la~drnull' of' si,r per cl'nt as 1>. presentlv tl1e c"se.

T PouJd expect that the l"inir;ter •·'<'nlc1 sav th:>t this :Is prohn1,1y <~n ef.fort to ll'llke sur<' tlHJt evervhC'c1v pavs. "C''' T Poul c1. noncler. He a hva~·s see"' to 1T"POSe P"'":1ltiPs. T "1" <mnderinp: if. thP scl1ool tax thinr 17'ust be, ,.,hy <ve ro pnt p;1ve n c11 scount for people payinr up in :J. r!v;~.nce. "For e~al"'p] e if 11 persf'n - tmn T nl" s11re the school tax 11.tttl1ori ty •··auld cert11inly 10574

Tnpe 3340 "" LP~n: .~pp reclr~t~ th1~- if Hl1atever t 11e AMount is, for eYMple, in !;t . • lnhn ' s, i ~ it fs seven tv-five doll~t rs, 1•hy nC>t if the perRn"l ~rl.ll pav un in ~c~t ~M~er for the fuJJ vear rive hi~ ~av, a ten rer cent or a fjfteen flE'T r.ent i'i,sC!'Hrt ~nl"tP.o:~" of' th:is thinr 1lhic!l is " penalty. T Ill" not ::;11TC th~>t tM.t Hill worl: hPC<H•se people ~1ho pt>neralJy :tre t<>nlv on those l"atters I l!M not ::;un• t hnt that tl-t:inp 1s m•Fu1ly fr:lfl :tenjn,.. tn thel". '1\ut anyways :It <'oes seem ljye 11 trt>MPni'nus increAse from si~ per cent to twelve per cent.

"ne hunC're<l pt-r cent. ~"'. 1 .·· ~!': OnE' hun<'reo per cent, r ir.ht. A ou~qtion on ~y l":lnr too 111 ho•; is th:IR pofnp to ~E' a<lM:Inistererl. Ts this nonthl~·. a l'lonthly thinr:, COI"flc>underl l!'Onthlv, that the ;ur.Oimt that a per~:on owes t his t'I'Onth there 1A :> twelve per <:f'nt ct1lcnlaterl ont<' th<'t ar-r thnt becotres che total An<' thE'n neyt l"Ont'l it is ~·elvP. per ct'nt of tht~t total ar.~in or is it .h•Rt cOMpouncter' nver the t1-'elvE' Mnnth per1nr? 10575

June 10, 1976 Tape 3341 PK - 1 Hr. Lush: I would like for the minister to say whether indeed that was the method or whether the interest is compounded monthly? In other words that the amount you owe this month becomes 12 per cent that is added on , and then the next month you owe 12 per cent again another 12 per cent? This seems to be rather excessive.

But again I would suggest to the minister that instead of doing this or certainly along with this there should have been the discount there for people who pay in advance much like your telephone company or your light bill or one of these that will do that sort of thing, instead of this penalty bit. Number four, permit authorities to decide the charge payable for a tax certificate. Now I am not certain that I understand what a tax certificate is, and I am not certain what amounts of money are involved here, but I certainly disagree with anything that is so open as this clause is here.

It is a blanket agreement, and open ended thing. I would much rather see a specific amount to charge up to, and I do not know,as I said before, what I am talking about here I do not know what the tax certificate is, I do not know if it !s something that will cost $10 or if it is something that will cost $100. But whatever the reasoahle cost is, if a reasonable cost for this should be let us say $2.50 then I think that is what should be stated. But here it is giving the authorities an open ended agreement to charge what they like.

So if the minister will comment on that and to enlighten me and probably my colleagues as well as to what is a tax certificate. I think that is all the remarks that I would want to make at this point. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I have a few points I would like to make on the school tax question. Basically I am in favour of this bill but I ~7ould like to make a few points. I think one of the dangers is if a school tax could become enormous if we do not watch it, if we are not careful. 1057fl

June 10, 1976 Tape 3341 PK - 2 MR. SHALLivOOD: Would the hon. member repeat that last part. HR. J. CARTER: I say it is possible that the school tax could become enormous in the near future or not too distant future. MR. SMALLWOOD: The amount. MR. J. CARTER: The amount per person per year may very well become enormous because education is expensive, it is getting more expensive and I can see no limit to the requirements of education in this Province. Now educatico by its very nature be free.

I do not think I need to weary the hon. members with listing all of the various ways education costs, from the cost to the individual, the school, the school board and to the government and to the various related services. Now I fought a case in court against the school tax many years ago, I was represented by the hon. House Leader, and very effectively represented. An~ for the benefit of the House I will just very briefly recount the events that led up to that. The former government said all education will be free, there will be no more school fees.

And then because of this hypocritical statement they were forced to bring in

an act entitling the school boards to charge an assessment, so this was not a fee,it was an assessment, an assessment ~1as not a fee. So in other words preschooling cost you $10 a month. My question was,of course, if free schooling was $10 a month how much would it be if you had to pay for it? Anyway the whole thing was absurd. So I took the case to court, and of course I had been charged wrongly under the wrong act, get off on a technicality and then paid my school fees. It was a political thing I frankly admitted. I would like to think that it embarrassed the former government. I hope it did.

And I hope it showed an awareness of the hypocrisy of the school assessment situation. Now the School Tax Authority is an attempt to regularize this whole mess. The Opposition have said on numerous occasions that the money for education can and should come completely from general revenues, that is to say Provincial revenues. There is a Federal grant towards education, but that is re•lly the post-secondary education. And what 10577

June 10, 1976 Tape 3341 PK - 3 Mr. J •. Carter: we are really talking about is school from kindergarten to Grade XI. On the other hand I do think that there would not be an awareness of the educational responsibility of the community if this were to be the case, there would still be the impression that schooling was free, that government pay the bills, that the government has lots of it, there is no need to stint. So if the school tax system has any value,in my view, its value rests in pointing out the continuing cost of education to the community.

And there are just a couple of suggestions that I would like to make to the minister for his consideration. A number of us have been fortunate enough to have gone to one or two schools that we are very proud to have attended and have kept in touch with that school after graduation. I myself attended for some years St. Bonaventure's College and it was very heart warming to notice the tremendous response given to the ·Ghristian Brothers homecoming last year. What I am trying to lead up to, !1r.

Speaker, is that a school can develop in a student an awareness and a love for that institution that can carry on throughout his life and that person can and frequently does contribute far beyond his requirements to that school. Now many people ~10uld like in other words to contribute to the school or the educational institution of their choice.

A great many schools on the Mainland operate on the bases of endowment funds and these endowment funds are a result of tremendous contributions that have been made over a period of years, some of them by act of will, others by act of gift, and as a result these schools have a nest egg upon which they are able to draw the interest and are able to provide all sorts of extras because of this. Now I would like to suggest that if an individual makes a donation to the school of his choice that that donation should be deductible from his school tax.

I am not suggesting that anyone should try and get away with anything or get off with anything. But there are people who have a particular liking, a particular school of their choice that they would like to contribute to, and in fact 10578

June 10, 1976 Tape 3341 PK - 4 ~ 1r. J. Carter: do contribute to it. And I think that person should certainly get a deduction, if not 100 per cent, certainly a very large deduction from his school tax. At the same time I would like to reiterate what I started out by saying and that is there is a grave danger that the school tax may become enormous. And I hope that ~~hat ever happens it is kept in line with peoples ability to pay. MR. SPEAKER (MR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Education. If the minister now speaks he closes the debate. MR. HOUSE: Hr.

Speaker, I am trying to find some of the notes that I had yesterday, some of the question that were put to me yesterday are on it. I have found of course a number of the discussions have been a little bit wide ranging. I have one comment on the fact about local taxation as raised by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) yesterday, he says why are we going with local taxes when the rest of the provinces are reversing it? Of course, I am not too worried about that personally because they are not necessarily right and we are not necessarily wrong because we think perhaps local taxation is more of a democratic process.

Another question was raised there about the more tl:an one person in a household paying the tax when they are making of course the amount of money that they have to make before they are eligible. Again of course the logic there is to me a little bit ridiculous because if three people are making three salaries in one household they can afford to pay three taxes much more than one person who is paying one. MR. NEARY: What about the millionaire? ------ AN HON • HEMBER: What about yourself? 10G79

June lf', 1 <J71" 'rane No, 33~2 NH - 1 ''11. 1!0{1'>1':: th:fs is one we have got to have clifficulty to overcome. Nnw wHh the rate of collection, a number of peonle 7.eroed i.n on t'lis one t think, what is the rate of collection, 1 trierl i:o ~et last night -do some research on this.and I could not because the School Tax Officer is out in the districts settinp: un a neH f;chool Tax Authority. But what we have been finding i.s that tiH' rates of collection are relatively hip.;h, T can use one I thin!( in the Port aux Basques ~rea.

The rate there 1 s >·!ell over ninety per cent and t}J.e one I am very familiar with in the Deer L-ake area <1f course was something het•Jeen eiP,htv--eir;ht ann ninety.

V.'here we are findinp.; low takes of course, in where they were setting up new districts, and they Here relatively l mJ and of course people resisted the paymf'nt of tnx<"s ancl of course it is go:f.ng to take some tim<" heforf.' they get attuned to nayinp: them, ~ut the trend seemed to be that where the school tax authorities have a tradition, we have a very high rate of collection and where they are just newly formed it is low hut it i.s improvinr all the time. The cost of collection - "''n. NEARY: They have no choice. ~HOlTS~ Hell, right. The cost of collecti.on of course it runs from ten to fifteen per cent.

I did one this morning for instance Grand Falls to the Exploits Valley, which is relatively new T think, nnd it is goinr to cost about fifteen per cent for the salaries and the total coJ~ection. No•r the exell'ntions,r say they are reasonable. I have not r;ot them here hut you have to be making a certain amount of money before you nay it.of course. It all depends on the si.ze of the fRmily. tf a man makinr. a salary of course he will pay nfter he makes ~'3.~1')(1 T helieve. Then according to the size of the famjly it is extended and people can go up to as high 10580

.rune lf'l, l97f- 'l':tne No. 3342 "R.. HOflSf.: as I believe <\5,001). T am not sure on t~at exact figure but the exemptions are f.ra duated accordinr to the size of the family and the size of the i ncome. NM - 2 ~ow the basic one T t~ink in zeroinp, in on the ?,C'ntleman from Windsor - lluchanR ('lr. Fli~~:ht) ahout tht> wap.r. deduction, cip.hty per cent of the people nayinp. school taxes or thereabout are payinr, a flat rate or a poll tax , and there 1s alrl'ndv lep,islation enabliny. wane deduction .

So ~1e are Rur,p.estin?, to ch;ml!e the wordinr, from "poll tax" to "school tax" ~o th:lt you are ahle to I'Jave wapc:- der\ur.t1nnR fC>r neonle payinP a property tax . There ar e a few communities i.n the Province where they are paying property tax . This •·rill c>f course rut everybody on an equal foo ting . 1\nd t 1lP other thing it is supnosed to he Sf'lread over the year, and monthly deduc tions . That is t 11e way it is rcco1!V'1ended. Hith rr.srect to the twelve per cent I am not sure ff it i.s compounde~ . Tt say ~C're twelve per cent rer year .

The re~son for that is not to ~et morP money out of the ti\Y.payl'r. The re3son of course- i s to br1.np, it in line w1.th ·~'Hit i <; norm:;~] to char~e for arrears and all other ki.nd!l o€ lml'inC!I5 ~ntl th<' other t'linf' T J!uess it is to prov1«'e a little hi.t nf n nentll ty to tt" to r.rcecl up coll.ecti.on. That is the nurpor." of tl•at. /I]Rc> ~o~!Jr.n an authority has to resort to the courts there 11re cont<: itwolved ther£> SCI ord1.nari.ly w'len you got to start char~inn neonle the intc:rest for ove-cdue nccounts, usually court nction follows . There are two or three other remnr~~ the.rl.'.

The- l'lP.JilhC'r for Terra 'low! ("r. Lu:;

h) mentione<' the tnY. exemntion . I wns tr.y1.n~ to find the old hill here . T iust, dinner hour when T t·ra.'! dotm to my office, signed 11 report fro'!! a school t"lx ::tut1lority • they are able to p;rant 10581

.Tun0 J'1, 1'171'- Tnpe '1o. 3141' ~ll' f - 3 "R. H!1IJC:E ' ;• ,1 is e ount :i f peop le f' .'ly up 1vi t1tln three month s T thin! ·., at the b e r;inninr, of th P year. I .iust sir,ned one "here th e y are n;i v i.nr, t e T' pP. r c ent discount and ,accountS nr~ nn ~ 'nh] e. jn advance. '·fp, . FT.J. r. ~TT : ------- '·m. }lt1USE: J ;:tm not sure. T a~ saying I hnve not ~ot t l•t> Act before "'C and J conl d not loot:: it Ufl hut I l:noH it i.s !'>e1:r.>.issl'l.hle becm,se that :tas been clone. 'l'hp tax cert1f1cate, it says that you charp;e one do] lar.

Now this is a little !>it of a nehulous one . 'But the C::cl-]oo] Trrx Authoritv neoo]e helieve thnt whE>n neople p,o to ]ool : for t:1.x c<?rtiflcates, usunlly ft is mortp:ar:es, the ~choo] Tax i\uthorHiPs feel they have r,ot the price of t~11<t mortp;ape fee.

They thin! · they should l1e ablP to co] lect it ant1 that wouJ d only <Pnly basically then to mortp,agers going to accounts vrhere there is a School Tax Authority looking for a certificate and they feel that it could be a couple of dollars hP.causc it is illrendy huiJt :!n there anyway and why should they not get it. 'T'hat ,.ras tl-]eir rationl'lle for it. Ncm tl-]e other main one here is the clause regardinr. th" abatement or thP. exemntion. 'l'his c.ame as a reconnnendation from the School Tax Authority which of course indicates they are very rresnons11 , 1P.

Several discussions were held on this involvinr: the Rssessors ancl the Municipal Affairs Denartment nnd the Department of T'ducation and the Department of Justice an<l they caMe un lvi.th this wordin~. Now if we do not put that in of course you are going to have a lot of discrimination because rir,ht now as it stands you are able to assess on the value of the prop€'.rty and ohviously we !mo'" that we have got some expensive property do not make the same 1-:ind of profits as other less expensive properties. The mP.T!lber for Twillin~ate (1Vfr. Smallwood) mention€'d yesterday about setting a maximum.

The danr:er of settin?, a maximum amount would he that it would not reflect the

June 10, 19711 NM - 4 MR. HQUSF. : ability to p~y and somebody makes a - well it does not reflect the ability to pay anyway. But there are exemptions for individuals. You know that is built there. There is no exemption built in at all for industry. So therefore we are asking for that kind of amendment. If you start and make a maximum amount a person could nay of course, or a group could pay rather, industry, you are going to set a dangerous precedent because it may not reflect the ability to pay. And this Province I believe now repleat with these kind of exemptions.

So it is felt that with the guarantee that the Lieutenant-Governor in Council has to give approval that the Tax Authority should he able to determine what an industry can pay. Of course it would be related to the income of that industry. Hr. Ch;>_irman, I do not'know if there are any other points there. I think that is about all I have to say on it. I move the second readinp, of this bill. On motion a bill, "An Act To Amend The Local School Tax Act," read a secon(l time, ordered referred to 1!.' Coiiiiilittee of the Whole House presently by leave.

Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public 1Ttilities Act." (Bill No. 63) . ~- SPFAKFR: The hon. House Leader. 'IR. lffiLI,S: I '"ill deal with this in the abesence of the Minister ----- of .lusticE>. Th:ls "l.s an amendment to the Public lltilH:I.es Act, 'Mr. Speaker, and it has certain amendments that are all set out quite fully in the explanatory note. Some of them are quite minor . There is the submission of the manual capital buclget to the board by public utilities.

This is so th11t the Public Utilities Board can be mvare of the capital budget of a public utilitv in ~dv~nce and of course will enable the hoard to better understand any applications or submissions which are made to the hoard during the year and better able to deal lvith it. It is a case of nroviding additional information in 10J83

.Tunc 11', 1 oyt; i\"! -- ''T!. HltTSf: aclvance really ·to the Public !ltj] ties noard. An important clause is the use of utility poles hy other persons nncl corporCltj_ons. The !let at the moment provi~cs only for the une of poles by other p~•lic utilities. T will deal with that section. Specifically it is

section 2 of the Act of this amendmPnt •rhich refers to subsection (lS) of tl1e parent act. It says, ":Every nuhlic utility h11ving conduits, 1058't

June 1(1, 1"7fi Tape 1341 lJl-1 F'. T"VLLS: ------ ro1cs, vir.E>s ~nr1 JHe ecwipl"ent shall for a re~tsonahle compensaUon pc1'"l'ljt the> usE' of the f..?I"e by any other pen:on whenever rublic conw,.n1enc<" ,-.ncl necessit" remd.res such use ann such usE> wilJ not re>Rnl t in 11nv !Whst;mtj 111 c:letriwent te> the f'ervice rendered or to h(' TPndere~ hy t1•E' nuh15c uti.lity owning the enuipl"ent.

Tn other FOrns "'hnt it really l"ean,, >'r. ~Pel'.ker, :!.s that you sh.~ll not 1f vou :1re a :-nhl i c nt iJ j ty he <>hle to adopt a dor jn tl-te manger attitude anrl say, you 1·noP , ''"'hat 5 s I'IY pc>le or thl'.t is !"V ~nsta 11 at:i on and no:OC1dy else no watter what tl->e pub]:! c neecl can be 11JJ.o~Ter' to use it." C:o thnt if anothPr party sho'·' ~t neerl th~tt :! s :!n the puhJ ic interest to uc;e that fac:f11t•r and if it is preparerl an~ can be reC]niren to p11y the sl1ot for 11plceep C1r 'h11tever rna i.ntenance :! s necessary ancl a] so if it c<~n be shm'l1 that i.t <"oes not interfer w:! th the service proviclecl hy the uti].ity itself, then the nor; in the Nlnger attitude '~oulcl not poles, w:!res or PhRtever 1t :Is for a reasonable compensation.

It c1ea1s also v:lth approvRl of rules anc'l regulat:!ons of. the pnbUc utD :ltv hy the hoard. It c1eals !'llso 1·1ith the ~rant-tnp. of inter:fw c>rners approv:lnp a scheclule of rateR prior to a f':fnal c'lecis:!on of the hoard.

Rnt if the final decision turns out to be so~et~:lnp clifferent then if. there were extra ~onies collecten, they can he refunden or ~eln in a trust account pendinp- final clec:ls:lon, if the interim orner granted a rate increase of any ktnrl which was h:fpher than tho final order. 1'l1en :!.t clealR with the arl.dinr of an allowance for the construction cost~< of an nncowpletec1 plant to the calcnlation of R rate hasr. Th:!s is esf'entiaJly a mathe!T'atical thinr, ~'r. Speaker, 1-rh i ch ~Voulc1 ha,re to he proven 11nrl sho~m before the Public Utilities Tl011Td.

Tt c1eals Rlso "Hh complaints !T'ade by the Hewfounc11and and Labrador T'Pclerati oP c>f "uni cip;!li ties in respect of rRtes and serv:!ce. Becau~<e of the chanring of the Court of Appeal and the Tr:U1J nivi sion reference no-., has to he !"aile to the r:ourt of "ppea1 :In the appropriate places in t~P. act. And the Td al T>hr:l s:l on also 10J85

J11T'e 10, 1"71' Jll-2 I'FLL~: l•ecause !'1atters c"n he 11PP"'"lei' np thrn11r,h the systel" of 11ppe,.] s nnc1 these> n1'1enc'mentf' are T"rtr1e necP.ss;ory \Jy the nm,, syste"' with courts. 'l'loe>l"! tl,ere iR the contiT'uer1 operatjon nf the orcler of thP. ho11rr nnt•dthstnnr' lnf> an appeal. In other. Horcls nntil the ""uld cnntin11c tn i1pply '. lifter thP. :tppe.nJ. •·•as c1C'i1lt 1dth then of course it js ,..hnnge.r1 or phatever. So these are provisions, ''r. Spenker, vrdch it is l1operl .~nrl servicep. t" the coT"T"tmitj,..s T"nre unner tlle control of the. I'nh~ic l"ti1 it:ies l'nnrr'.

Tt is 1·opecl ani' expectec'1 thRt these aT"ettrlments n<!J tl ' ~ r1Ppree of contro 1 prov:i -iNl hy the hoarcl i tse1 f. lfT'. T''ff\,..Y: ----·-- rul ·Jic ''til iti<~s ,..nnn1s :1re nnth:in~ mar<' in l"nst provinc(>s th::m merely ., rnl•her stm"p. Even thourh yon may have ."'onr1 "'en on the PTJlil ic ''ril.ities "•n:lrr', rirht ncross rnnflnn peorJe "re beginning to rebel nr:~tnst rernlatorv hocl:icf' like the P•1hlic ''ttlitieF 1'n11n1• They ~'""' Wf' ;orP hrinp-in ." in 11tor" nrenr1ments to provj r'le •·• i e'er f'D'·~ers for J knmv, ''r.

Spe;~ker, that we h"lve nntl inecl in the exrJanRtnrv nnte v:'T:fch are reall~· s~.reepjnr chanl(es 1f T understand tlH' m1n:lster cC'r.rectly ,,,e 11.re no~' rrnntinr anthoritv to thl" Pnhl <c 11til1ties noarc' to l!'al·e interim r1rcisinnf' on Appl i('1'ti0nf' ancl then later ht'>Jd hl"arings or :If there shon1cl !1e an appe."l], to hnlr1 the heflrinRR on thP. ;eppeaJ 'lnc1 so forth. 105811 •.

J11ne I", 1'176 TF-3 present till'e. T w•s l10pjng, l'r . ~pe<lker, thnt one of the a'J'lendments th1.1t ~lnnld h1.1ve t>een hroup,ht in - "'lthouph :It is not coverer :In this fct, it l>' cc>vere2 in thP Newfoundland Law Society Act - th11t :Is an amendment "''l-erehv any orclin"ry Ne~·•fc>tmdlancler, :'1!"1Y Ne~·,founrlJ 11nder 1-1ho has h:ls s"n:fty and a little hit of co'f"!llon sense ~ ·JOuJd be able to ?ppe:Jr hPfnre the Public T't~1:it:!.es P.oarc1 and repres•mt a group.

For :l.m;t:mce ~f a pres:lc:'ent of a nnjon or if a unior ,.antecl so!"e represe!"1tative. some c1e]ep-ate, their 1nternation<lJ representative to appear before the Pttl)lic n :11 i t:!es Boa rei they shC'11J c1 be able to ck• so. J1ut nncier thf' Ner.•fo•mt:1.1 and 1.:>~; Society ~ ct they are harrecl, not nnly unions h1t <1ny nrriln:!zRt:lon :Is harre.t 1 frol" be:lnr, represented r•efore the Puhl:lc Tltilitles :<'·O;<rr:l. hy al] people c>t}Jer thAn ,,wyers.

Tn on'er tc> appear he fore and 111ake representfltion on hehaJ f of '! gronn he fore the T'ubJ :1 c T'ti l :1. t:l es Iloarcl you have to be a 1 ar.'Yer he>cmtsc the Publ:lr: PtH:It:l.es r.oAr<' is consiclered to be a sel"i quas:l jnclk:lal boc1y. !1'. 11:":LJ,S: l.'cmJ c1 the han. !T'e111ber permit 11 que!'tton? '1'. Nf.APY: Yes. P' . lffiLLS: Vhen >·r. Jorn l'Pc'c1le "~<'<mten to repre.'lent, ~<ns he not a1Jm•ec1 jn the encl to represent F-Ol"eon.e? I th:lnk he '"'as, ~~as he not? "P. NFf.r PelJ , l'r. !':pe>aker, T ;,•as there the r'l~<y th.:>t the hon.

T'1'n Le~ris who ••as representing the r.N, ranar:lian ~!<1tionaJ - this Pas in connection ,.>:ftlt the appl:lcation for that increase :In the bus fares 1\Croc.R this Province - ~•hen Yr. Le,,>is objectee" to "r. Pec1c1le representing a consumers ll:roup in th:!s Prc>v:!nce on the bas:ls that this was a C]uasi. 1ttc':lciaJ t>ocly ;mrl tmder the Newfoundland T.aP !"ociety Act 1'r. Pec1c1J.e had no ri r.ht to spea~· on behnlf of this group. Hell everybody in t~le> room that rnorninp. . Fas coMplete1 v shocl~ecl. T knn•• :r ~··as.

I could not believe that there was snch A statute, there ~,•fl.s Ruch a law on the statutes nf tr•is Prov:lnce. nut T co:>me hack to r"onfe<"erat:!on 10587 ;

.lul"c 10. l<l76 Jil-l. __ •w.~rv: ~ure cr.our.h the re 1 t vas. T~ the hon . ll'CT1l>llr ne-t the Mel"her ~o.ilo pointec' out the ~rction to yo u? ,.,. !W f.T"': ''1'" pointe~ out the nection to .,e? T t.nuld not be 11 b it !.'nrpriset! hut it ~'3!' th,.. hon. l'llember. I wouJt1 not he a hit ~urpri sc t! . T believe he rit!. Yes hecau~e r a~ not - /Ire tU! not·· ti'H· in~t, Vr . Speaker , of these two insepar~>l-le hon . re,.hers , each tl1e othe r s stronrest a<11'1l1rers. ''r . :.re"l·r r, rl·,.. """ · rcnt le ..... 1n nnt1 T '-'Ct alonr nll rtrhr. ror" - l ~ !>>'AIL' "'"P : Thnt j s good to hea r. ,..

I'T' :-ffi>\"V : 1 'e arc' l-ot h eJ ertcc' representative~ of th~s "e-lise, l'1r, -- • T r() not t h in!· 17P shc-uJ cl allow our perse>n~>l cH fferences "t& cour~e ne-t . Th~ hon . ~ini s rer is nl"t, he is not . "n, '= ir, T l'r. ne>t th;H n11rm~,inc!erl. l'ne tl inp T nl'l ,.,ro~t li!•c the "rcw1('r, T :>n o<'t " vincf1 .ctive ,...an. T never l•olrl "l're than seven e>r e:l.~ht years. '=o"'<'tii!'E'R T al'l ti'O Sl'ft .

Soll'Ctil"E!R T pondn'l" if thE' " " "''•1.1.''1"1'1): '"Rr>rr1:1)h· r.•irh the ''1n1ster of T1nanre. - ir nor tN> ~nft r.oll'Cti"'C~ ~'ith ROI'!C' of the re(lp1e i.n R'•nutd l-e CCII'Iinr fro!" th:ls si~c of the "('I use . " aybc :1 I' the hon . T'rer>1 er l0S88

.TunC' 10, I " 7(, T;>nc 131·.3 'lot thC' hon . PPnt 1.ernnn :1nc1 T <'1cl <l:!scm;s it Ann th!' hon . rentlel"ffn pointe<' C'Ut to I'll." th11t this ><'M; the SN' tir>o r>f thl" A,cr that l~c thourht applierl :mel sure enonr.h 1 t ··m~>o . "nt 11s :l t hnpp t"H'tl t1te "ha:! m~tn of the 'lQI'T<' nJ 1 o•·•ecl .. r . T'cclr'le to l"'nl·c lois pr r.sentr>t:!o n. Re nee(l not have <lone t hn t, if •·r . Lctdfl hncl ins1:::tec1 on hi~'< dSthts, on r.N ' s r:lphts, rm t he r ip.hts that the l at· h!' l'nforc<'><l. ~nd .. r. " et!tlle would not h;;~ve bee n 11Jlo~·ecl tn m111•e the prPse,tl't"icn.

"Rut J th:lnl< the r e \'liS 11 kind of n rent] el!':lns ar,reer>ent that ' 'r. Lewis ·ff'l t he hn<' m<~cle ~is f'l('in t hecausP 1 hPl ievt> .., fC"~' "Nlrs h:.C'k n simfl:t r s:ftn.'\tiC'n tlTOI!C when l'r . T.e•··is ••'1o 'anppcnecl t o '•e the !:n li c:ftnr for f""l t.<lls on the othe r si cle of t.hc fe ns!' '""d ::O(lrnP.th:!nr h;>pocnec' ~ ·h en :::ome other r<'ntlel'll! n \·~as there Mn1•inr. <1 prcscnt11tlon t "~> t tl•e po-in t ""S ra ~setl "'"cl no•· ''r. Lc•d s •,•as f'l"ttinr snuii TC ":lth "C'IT'Cl-Oc'V C'IT f'Ctt:ln~ l'lnii:'ITP ·~th the hoa r c' J Ill" nn t l"HT E' ~·l • ich. :'111t nnvww "r .

T P•ds '""tle 'lis roint . t•r . Pt>~cll e ·~as 11lJC'·~to<l to l'l:ll:t> thP prcl'l" ntllt ion hut only t:hroupl> ti-e <>nN' "races of the 1ern 1 coun..,e1 dto "' ~'S rept:t'l'~"llt~>tirr. th e P.OVI"t'T\llle'nt and ref)r el'lent at1n l1 r.-1• The "h."i nn:m o f the "on r ri <"OU 1 cl hAve sa i rl, "Nc>. " Ar< a !'latter n f faC't a•n~e ~ tl-P 1n•·· of th:!s Province '""Ybf" hP ""c>ulcl have said N'. '"hr 1.nv 10589

June 10, 1976 Tape 3344 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: needs to be changed, and I was hoping that this would be one of < the amendments that would be brought in. But, Mr. Speaker, we are providing the Board now with some pretty wide powers. The Board now can grant an interim order approving the

schedule of rates prior to a final decision on the Board. Now I am not quite sure if this is a good thing or not, Sir. I think it is a very dangerous thing myself. We saw some time ago, last year, early last year how the Board can goof. Even though, Mr. Speaker, it is not a criticism of }lr. Powell, I know if the Minister of Justice now were in his seat he would get up and it would almost be like waving a red flag in front of a bull, oh condemning these fine Newfoundlanders. I am not condemning these fine Newfoundlanders, but I am condemning,the system I am attacking.

Last year the Board made a decision that was wrong. They goofed. They allowed the Newfoundland Light and Power Company apart from the 15 per cent increase, back last February I believe it was some time, and then another 7.5 per cent or another 15 per cent later on. They also allowed the Newfoundland Light and Power Company a 1.5 per cent monthly increase to be carried on infinitum, indefinitely to be carried on, 1.5 per cent a month to be added on to the monthly rates compounded, 1.5 per cent added on to 1.5 per cent.

And they almost started a Third World War and up to the point that I started this crusade against the high electrical rates that we have in this Province they were letting it go on and on and on and just sitting back and they knew it was wrong. They let it go on and on and finally in November the Board realized the goof, the blunder that .they had made and they cancelled it for the month of November, and they cancelled it for the month of December, but every month they had to meet and take a decision of whether or not they would allow it to go on.

And the excuse that they used was because of the high increase in the use of electricity in the Winter months that the 1.5 per cent was not required. Well that is the kind of decision, Sir, that,in my opinion, makes me wonder if we are being wise now in giving the Board broader 10590 .,

June 10, 1976 Tape 3344 PK - 2 Hr. Neary: powers, and allowing the Board now to grant interim orders, without hearings I presume. That is what I understand from the legislation and from what the minister said. The granting of an interim order approving a

schedule of rates prior to a final decision of the Board and the refunding or other disposition of excess revenues if the interim order is in e~cess of the rates actually approved. We are now going to give the ~oard, Mr. Speaker, the right to grant an interim order without even a hearing, without as much as a word or a peep out of anybody, and then the hearing will be held later on. lvell once the damage is done how are you going to undo it, Sir?

If the Board in its wisdom decides to grant say Newfoundland Light and Power Company to grant an increase in rates and then six months from now the hearing is held, and then they got to go down and l>attle it out would not the consumer, would not the people who are in there arguing for the consumer be at a sciological disadvantage because the order had already been issued, the Board has to be proven to be wronB. The thing strikes me, Sir, as being very - maybe I am misunderstanding it but that is the reading I get from it. MR. J. CARTER: Oh, oh! MR .

NEARY: Aw, a big over grown galoot is not up in his savory patch today. Mr. Speaker, another matter that concerns me very much about the Public Utilities Board, and I have attended a good many hearings in the last few years, . and I must say I have not seen very many other members of the House attend the hearings of the Public Utilities Board, it would be worth their while to go down there some times, maybe some of the legal people have because they may have been down there representing groups. But it would be worthwhile to go down and see what a charade it is, what a mockery, what a farce the whole thing is.

If you do not go in there with an expert you may as well hang up your hat, the case is lost before you get in there, the Baard seems to be impressed with experts. They do not listen to reason or common sense. They will only look at the balance sheet, are you in the red or are you in the black or are you in the red? They look at 1059t

June 10, 1976 Tape 3344 PK - 3 Mr. ·Neary: the red or are you in the black or are you in the red? They look at the balance sheet, they do not delve deeply enough in my opinion into these applications to see what is the reason behind some of these applications being made, and we have one coming up that I would submit to the House is the classic example, and that is the one involving Newfoundland Light and Power Company. Mr. Speaker, I want to say this that in my opinion the Newfoundland Light and Power Company is mismanged, is one of the grossly mismanaged companies in this Province.

But you go down before the Public Utilities Board and try to argue that or try to get the Public Utilities Board to send in, say, Price Waterhouse or send in Clarkson and Gordon to see if Newfoundland Light and Power Company is mismanaged. And they will tell you that is not lvi thin their terms of reference.

I am told, Sir, that they just put in Newfoundland Light and Power Company a new centrex system that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, that they have a fleet of 300 vehicles that before an application is made before the Public Utilities Board you can find out moose hunting, parked out in front of clubs, misused, abused, drive up the cost because we are goine before the Public Utilities Board and once the application is approved then we can cut back, n:isusc of vehicles, using up gas and tires, out trouting, and out moose hunting. And this is an absolute fact, Sir. l1 R. J. CARTER: Lay a specific charge. HR.

NEARY: I am laying a specific charge right now. t1R. J. CARTER: No the hon. member - llR. NEARY: ----- I am saying, Sir, that the Newfoundland Light and Power Company - MR. J. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. ~ffi. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): A point of order has been raised. :nL J. CARTER: The hon. gentleman if he is going to make wild charges and use the shelter of this Legislative Assembly to make these 1.0592

June 10, 1976 Tape 3344 PK - 4 Hr. J. Carter : wild charges should at least make the charges specific, the name of the person who is driving the vehicle, or who is catching the trout, and the licence number of the vehicle, the colour, shape, size, the whole lot or else sit down. MR . NEARY: Your Honour knows that is not a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! I think that the l i mits of debate are quite wide in the Rouse.

I would point out to the bon. member that at this stage of the debate the principle embodied in the act is under consideration, and in this regard we are considering the principles embodied in these amendments not in the original act or in other provisions of the act. So I would ask the hon. member if he wodld gauage his remarks in relation to the principles of these amendments. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Your Honour. I am dealing with an explanatory note, number four, Sir, granting of an interim order.

And what I am saying is that the Public Utilities Board could if they wanted to could grant the Newfoundland Light and Power Company an interim order to increase their rates without even taking a look at whether or not Newfoundland Light and Power Company has a sloopy management, is mismanaged, whether their vehicles are being used for trouting and moose hunting, whether or not they are piling on the overtime a few months before the application is made. In other words, Mr. Speaker, to make the financial situation of the company look bad, look bad AN BON . MEMBER: MR.

NEARY: That is not what I said, I said there is gross mismangement and the colour of the vehicles they are using are red, green, pink, yellow, they are all colours, there are 300 of them, and they do not even have their own maintenance depot. AN HON • MEMBER: And their names. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I could give the bon. gentleman the names of the people, but that, Mr. Speaker, is not I do not think 10593

'!. June 19, 1916 Tape 3344 PK - 5 Nr. Neary: it is not relevant at this particular moment. If Mr. Templeman, is it Templeton or Templeman? AN HON • }!EI'ffiER: NR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: Brake. Brake? No that is the Newfoundland Telephone. I said Brake. MR. NEARY: Mr. Templeton. If Mr. Templeton or Mr. Templeman wishes to reply why I would be glad to take him on in a public debate as I have taken on the lawyers and the car dealers and several ~ther groups.

But, Sir, the Public Utilities Board could do this under this power, under this legislation that we are given the Public Utilities Board, they could do that - and what I am saying, Sir, is that they could be con, all these things could be done if the supervisors could take on their relatives and their,sons and their daughters, and I am told right now even, Mr. Speaker, in the case of the Newfoundland Light and Power Company that there are 400 essential employees working with that company,outside workers, and 600 office employees.

There are more office employees than there are essential workers, people out maintaining the poles and the wires and so forth, 600 office employees. What kind of a sloopy management must they have down there. The I~ hole thing ls groasly mismanaged.

And under this law we are giving the Public Utilities Board the authority to grant an interim order to a crowd like this, and then to•,have to go in later on and battle it out, and then even at that when you do get back before the Board for a final decision under this Act, they still will not go out and investigate the management of the company to see if they are over 1.0594

June l"l, 1971i Ta11e No. 3345 NM - 1 ~ffi. NF~RY: managed if they are over staffed. Yet they are conning the board. The board has been conned in the past. And I have got this from my usual reliable sources. And so, Sir, I t>elieve we are lJUttin~ too much power in the hancis of the "Public Utilities Board and not enough in the hands of the consumer. Recently He ns1:erl the :f\!ewfounrlland Hydro if they woulrl voluntarily appear before the Public Utilities Boarri.

They no not have to go, if th~y would voluntarily go ~efore the l'uhlic Utilities Jloard and submit themselves to questioninP. and examination ~y various people who wish to ask questions of the Newfoundland Hydro in connection with the recent application before the Board for an increase in electrical rates as of the - 'Jhat is it the 1st . of June, or the 1st. of July, the ]st. of July. Rut we made no provision to give the consumer p;roups the wherewithal, the finances to fight t!J.e hiP, corporations and to fip;ht the lawyers and to fight the engineers and the experts that the company will parade in.

They •rill keen parading them in, clay in and day out, and half the 1.nformat1.on is tabled even the experts themselves do not understand it. But I am trying to get down to the nitty sritty, Sir, the nittv gritty of it and that is the fact in my opinion of whether or not we are giving the board too mucb power. I think we should be putting more ])Ovrer in the hands of the consumer rather than in the hands of the Public Uti] ities Board. Hr. Speaker, I think that is my main objection to this particular piece of lep,islation.

The approval of the rules and rep;ulations of a public utility und!:r '~hich they provide service, the use of pt1hlic utilities poles and persons. The Act presently provides only for the use of poles by other public utili.ties. The minjster did not tell why that was - MR. MORGAN: It has to do with cable television. 10595

.Tune 10, 1 CJ 76 Tape No. 3345 l\"' - 2 ~ R. NF.ARY: It has to do tvith cable television. That is Hhat t thought so. I was just going to mention that. I presume the lloard of Commissioners of Public Utilities Hill now have the authority to consider applications for the use of poles for instance that are used hy the Newfoundland Telephone Cm'lpany tn cnrrv the cable for t:1e cable televisi.on. So that may he necessary, 'lr. Speaker, I have no arp;ument 1vith that. l'lut I certainly do dispute the fact that tve should give this hnanl 1'1cirr- nnthor1 ty than they have at the present time.

T woulr1 like tn reduce thP-tr authority if I could and keep the nuthority where it he1ongs in this House and in the hands of politicians and not to try to pawn everything off on boards like the Puh1ic T'ti.lities Jloard. flne of these days, l'r. Speaker, I tvill get up and I ui 11 asl< the "Minister of Mines and Energy a question in this llousP ;1hout electrical rntes an-1 I can tell you rip;ht nntv I will forf'.cas~ for von and make for you, make a prediction lvhat the minister would say, the minister will say, "We had nothi.nr. to c1o wi.tl-J it. 'T'hat wns the "uhlic Uti.lities lloard.

Tlw.t H:J.S "Mr. \.1.~rencc Pot,,ell and the l'!el'lbers of the Puhlic TTtilities lloarf! •vhC'I nrP fine, outstanding, decent hC'Inourahle- '\let·rfoundlmHlers," and th.-t is lil~e snyinp; I arn in favour of rnotherhnof!. T s:w to that l1ear, hE'ar! But tht'! hon. "!inister of "'ines :J.ntl 1\ncrr;v IV ill 0ny, "l'o. 'Je han nothing to do w1 th :it. T t Has done hy an indepPndent, impartial board." }!y eyehalJ . ''11. NEARY: ----- Independent, impartial hoard is a creature of this l'ouse, anmvers to the Minister of Justice. And I would submit in most cases, Sir, just merely a rubber stamp.

And that is all it will be in tl,, case of th:!s Newfoundland Hydro s-ttuat:!on. '"R . MURPHY· Did the Tories - HT'.. NF.ARY: It wilJ. just be likr> watching "The Price Is Right." You will be better off if you watch "The Price Js Pip:ht," you would spend your time hetter than going down wastinp, your time down at one of these hearin~s. 10596

June ]n, 197f- Tape No. 3345 "R. Hl!RPHY: Or "Here -\nd Now." '~. NEARY: It is a pure waste of time. The nower should have been kept in this House instead of p,iving more power to the l\oard of Commissioners of rublic 'Jtilities. 'IR. ~·IURPilY: ~1e bought that dp;ht. H~. NEAP-Y: Kef'p it in the hands of the politicians. The politicians are mo~e sensitive to the needs of the people, because they have to amn<er. MR. MURl'm' : - on the other side of this House now. This was all right when he uas in government but now everything is wrong. All was white then now it is all turned black.

Hell what happens to this type of thinr,? AN linN. MF.ffilr.R: Strange. HR . MURPHY: ~trange it is. Extraordinary. '~ow you can make a wrong thing right or a right thing wrong. MR.. NEARY: Mr. f:peaker, I do not know where the hon. gentleman gets the idea that everything was right when I was on that side of the House. HR. MURPHY: v'eJl you agreed with everythinp,. 1 did not see you once stand ur and vote against it. HR. NEARY: Everything ~- as certainly not right. MR. MlffiPHY: You scurried for the bathroom one night on a very important vote. t1R. NF..ARY: And what was the vote?

What was the vote that I scurried to the ~athroom on. '1R. MURPHY : The hosPital workers, yourself and your other great labour man from Labrador City. You were missing for about a week. You went underground at two o'clock in the morning. Oh I remember it so well. MR. "ffiARY: ~r. Speaker, I was one of the people who spoke. As a matter of fact one of the few who spoke ar.ainst that legislation. And T was not in the House when the vote took nlace. HR. MURPHY: The vote is recorded. two o'clock in the morning. 10597

June Fl, 1976 1'a;Je No. 3345 NM- 4 MP.. NEARY: It may he recorded hut the han. gentleman will find out that I was not in the House when the vote was taken and I spoke against the legislation. But anyway, Sir, that has nothing to do with this .,articular hill. Mr. Speaker, I think now the time has come when we have to take a good hard look at these regulatory bodies and if we <~re v:rd ng to nmrend the l'uhlic tTtilHies Act, Sir, I think we should amend it in favour of the consumer and not give the Public Utilities ~oard, as good as they may he, and I think that Mr.

Clarence Powell is a fine outstandi~g gentleman, competent, was an exellent Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs. Rut I will tell you, Sir, in my opinion that the consumer does not have a chance before that Board, not a chance of R snowball in Hell. You have not p;ot a chance, Sir.

You r-o dmm t~l"re, you got hir,hly paid lawyers, you have got good lmvyers and you have got medium lawyers and you have got pocket size Perry Masons and you have got experts and you have got experts and vou have got l~itnesses brought from univiersities on the >fa!n1and :mel across Canada and whoever got the most money, that is Phat it a'!lol!nts to, Hr. Speaker, whoever can nwy out the most money for the most experts who can get up and impress the Board then that is the crowd that is going to win and I vmul.cl suhm-tt to Your Honour that that is not the consluners.

C~T, Newfoundland Light and Power Company, Newfoundland Telephone C:ompany do not mind lashing it out if they think they can win their ccse and they do not mind conning the Board either as T suggested th~t the members that they do, by allowing all ~!nds of overtime previous to an aPplication being made, by allowinp; their payrolls to be inflated before an application iR made, hy having !;nn office ernployees compared to 400 men w'i1o actuallv do the essential work for that company.

So I would submit, Your Honour, it iR time that the l'uhl.ic UtilitieR Board delved a 11.ttle deeper into these applications and not just look at the 10598

June 10, 1971\ Talle No. 3345 NM- 5 ~. NEARY: balance sheet. I h;we hearrl statern~nts made. Mr. Speaker, hy the Public Utilities Board Chairman, and representatives of the Board thAt the col!ll'anv ts entitled to n fair return on its investment. A comoany is entitled to a fair return on its investl'lent. Well 1 would like to kno~1 what kind of jargon that is anrl what that means. Does it mean that we are entitled to ~5 million a year nrofit, $10 million a year profit, $15 million a year profit? \''hat do thev mean and what aTe the terms of reference that were given the Public Utilities Board hy this House?

Is that the terms of reference 1~e gave them to make sure that companies get a faiT return on their investment. What is a fair return? Is it one oer cent, two per cent, ten per ·cen t? Tn the case of Newfoundland Lir,ht and Power Company t he sky is the limit. And that is t~e kind of stuff, Sir, that I am objectinR to and I hope that the minister can persuade me that T aM wronp when the minister stands up to close this debate.

But rip,ht now, ~ir, the wAy I feel about it, unless there are t~"lngs here t'1at are Absolutely essential and because of the chanp,in!l times anci the new technolo gy that is coming into this Province, unless there are things that are absolutely essential I w~lud minimi?.e the authority of that Board. And I would hting more authority back to the nouse of AsseMbly and put it in the hands of the ministry and in the hancis of the Premier. Because they have to answer on pollin~ day, at the hnllot box, the Public Utilities Roard people, as good as they are, have to answer to nobody. MR.

SPEAKF.R: The hon . member for Trinity - Sav de Verde. 'IlL ROWF:: Hr. Soeaker,

.Ttme Jn, l97F; Tape 3346 Il:l-1 T ."ll'l onl v pninr to sAv " fe•• Fords on this p11rt:!.cuJar hill, amendments tn the T'11h1ir. TTt:ll:lties ~ct ~mel J am not r;oinr. to speak tn favour of these pDrticuhtr a11'enr.l"ents •. t'uch of ''hat "lY friend frol'l L<~PoiJe ("r. ,.,.,.ry) h.1s f':d ~ I 'mul d have ""'·tel and he s«iil mo1:e than I ~muJ d ""ve R"11<' anrl T think he kno~rs "· lot 1'\0Te 8.hout these part:! cular piece of le<'isJatir>n than T. i!' fnct, ~o. P.nt 1 ar,ree Pith practi.c11 .Jlv every ~inp:lE> •·'<"Tn tl1r>t he haR s;oi~.

Proht~hly T would not hAvE' voiced it nnite as stron!"l y a 1 Fould 1 :fh~ to say at the out !'let that T have e'rery respect for the chaiT!'lan of that particular board. 1 hnve Appeared hefore hil" a>' n l'1atter of fnct. T)e ns n 1AR T l:lelieve can make representat:fcm on heh?.l f of p1:oups or on l:>e~al f of - AN RON ~lBBR: flh, oh! ..!"'· llOiffi: \-Tell that is a strange thiT'.g, ~'r. Speaker, because 1 t1•rneCt up l·efore t he Pt•l:>Jic T'tilit:!es lloard on behalf of<~ p.:rClup of "'Y constituents ~mel ar~uecl the cAse. Probably he thought I w:ts Bill <"T somethinr.

J1ut as jt happenec1, Sir, I ma<le a coTT'rlete !"ess of it:, h]e•,• it complete)''· ''v poor constituents Pere pract:!c?]lv crytng there tl!'d Hhen tl1e 0the1: 111•,ryers r,ot up to c>rp,He thei1: caRes t l1ey felJ tn piece~ 11nd we won hecause 1 th:ln k the chairman pit1e .c1 us fp rhis r.,rt5cn1:~r '"""e. "••t that is not the roint. It is an inte-r.estinp oneF:tiC'n, "r. f-peaker, to fi.nd out whether or not ~'HAs c;,n .~pre-"r hefore the I'uh1 ic TTtil:ities Board on beha]f of Cl:'nst:ltnents . V'T, }'!'li'/'l.l"Y: , ~. T'(1!TF,: Yo11 cAn Rpe,.1· for yourself hut not for a f>.roup.

"e)] Twas representinr, a f'roup of oeop]e, Sir, anr'l jn'> t because th£'y w•J ''"" into the off:! ce Rnrl sai<l, "Hill you co,.,e rlo,.n nncl h elp T"e nut'', <'lnr' T ~~~.ic' yes. But, you know, that :Is bes:l~e the r,oint. Tl•e f:~ct of thr> r1ntter is, Sir, I was subjectec1 to the ldnd of tllinr that 1'1V frienn fro'" L11Poile (".,.. Neary) h11s tall'ed a}•ollt anc' th11t is th:fs. That the consumer - you !<nov•, the Puh]ic TTtHit:fes noarr' is a ••ooc' c<'ncept. llohoc'y c~>.n anme ap:~>.:fnst the concept of a Puh)ic r~til:l. t:ies Board. Presumably a Pnhlic Ptil1ties Jlo11rc1 is set up 10GOO

.June Jfl, J'l76 Tape 3346 B-2 ''" POWF: to het~r puh-L1c utilitie!' cn!'e.s fnr say an incr.eaRe in -..ates pnr' anythinr: ;mr Rlso to hear cnunte.r ar?.ttT"ents. Presumably ;~nd I assume thnt the nnhlic FtilHies !'.oArd 11re f<lir althonr:h :In some cases they !'lay he as the l"el'lher f.o,.. LO'lPo:lle (l'r. '1e;uy) saic, they may be connecl.

I ••oulrl ra.ther use persu?.clerl. 'frey are persuaclerl somet:l!'1es by the magnitude nF the arguJ!'et1tnt:lon pre!'entecl by a rroup of lm·:oyers on beh:llf of the$e public ut:IJ it:les ,.,hether :!t be the J,ight and Paver r:ompany or 1lvc1ro Quebec. l':nw rlo not tell Y"e, "r. ~peaker, that when Newfouncllanr' and Lnl·rn<:lor Jlydro or the Telephone r:oll>pany or the Lirht Rnrl Power ror.pany f!n hefnre the Pul-.1 i.e T~t:ll iti.es r.oarr1, rlo not tell 11'e that they c;>nnot present a better case, a ,..,ore persnasjve cRse, more poFerful arruments than <1t1y rroup of cnnsuwers HhP.ther they he representec1 by the Ne~·found] an<:! 11ncl L<'l-.r;,c1or ,..eclerat1on of ''un:fc:l.paJities throur:h a lawyer or not.

I undcrst:mrl nm.• th11t the ~Te~•found]anrl anrl Lahradnr 'l'ecleration of l'unicipaJ:Ities h:we a case before the hoarc1 and they have a lat.yer. 'P.y the '-'BY J m:l rcht and, 1'r. f;peaker, i.n case pP.op) e th:l.nk that I have !'lOT'te insjrle informatiof1 here, I WRS lookin!! c1m·m through the explanatory notes there a fet•' !'linutes apo an<" I had littJ e notes there and Hhen I rcot to n111"11er six I pot nmm s7e biJ 1 an<" I have heen tryinr, to fip.ure out which hill, t·'hl!lt number h:lll I should be seeinr.

As :It happened j t turns out T realize somel7here it1 the past thnt my brother 'Fii] J h;,ppens to be represent:ln? that particuJar p.roup in the hear:lnp,s before the Public l't:il:lt1es Bnl"rr:1 but T have h11.d not conversations t·dth P:l.l'l li'hl"tsoever ••1th respect to these hearinr,s. T woulrl Bke to put that point hefo!'e the l'nnRe hec;msE' in fnct I am not poinr to !'<tart a:rguinp tl1e case . llut a!'l T Ra:l<l before, Sir, the concept of the l'ubl:lc FtHities l"";,rc1 has to l1e a r:;or>cl one. ~lol,; they are gettinr mo!'e powf'r.

Now i.t iR nnt the fact t1,at thev "re p,ett:lnp. more power, particularly unc1er that expJ..,natorv note 4, that concerns me. That i.s not really ,.rhl"t concern~ tne. The f<~ct :Is :IR thflt ~·hether :It :Is a 'le••fotmclJand anc1 Labrador T'en<.>!'at:lon of "unicipal:lties representee' hy cme l11wyer Sfl.y, 10601

.Jttne 10, 1976 Tape 3346 JJ'I-3 ''1', r-flPF: T cnnnot ~ce - T rlo not even knm-1 whitt the case is but suppos1n!! it is the electricity - T think it is the e]ectric;itv rRtes, is it not? '·'ell I Rm <~ssum:lnr that the Ne,..fotmdJ an<" Rnd T.ahr<1clor T'ereraticm of }'unicipalities is roinr; before the P11blic Utilities Board arru:lnp apa1.nst t'1P increase in electrical rates and they have one la~ryers. ~:mv nohoi!y c<".n convince T"e, S:lr, tlmt tr.at one lawyer and with the a:ln of the rnet"hers of that federation ani!

Tvith all the experts that he UTay have to <'O to, T fine it verv rlHf1cn1 t. to helieve that he con1c1 put up "" cllse that woulcl he as stronp. as that that can be put up by the NP H ~onnr1J anc1 anr1 Lahrar1Clr Po'•ler r.omrnission or whatever it is called, ~ T e•,r founc11anc1. T.ip:ht and Pot.•er r.ompany. !JI->y clo I say that, Sir? 'Because tre Newfoundlancl T. i rh t an(!

Power rornp;my - have available to the1!l aJl of the:lr engir.eers, all of the:lr r1rnft smen, 11ll of their acc-ount:mts ;mel <".11 of their l11wyers I!Orl "1] 0 r thP T"Onf'Y thpy neerl tCl f'l•mp in to :t h:1 ttCTV of ) 111yYC'.l"S :f f necess<"rY tCl rern~ s ent them before the Pub] i c TTtiJ :!.ties noarr'.

T cannot se<' even t·r:lth the 'Federation of Labour w:!th one Jawyer hm~ thev could conC'.ei,.rah]v - they mjr,ht anc1 all cre<lit to t.hern if tl,ey c~n - hut I cannot !"ee ho•·~ thPy got a chRnce f1f a sno ~:bal 1 :In the rn:l c'(IJ e of Jl. fr :l ca of p1.1ttinr, up a C<"se as stronv Rs tr.Rt ~·h:f.ch c:m h" put ur hv tre comr>:1ny hecanse the col'lpany just has alJ th:!.s expertise l"lanpm~er, ].a-.•yers, enr.:lneers, :1ccountants, cost analysts, everyth:!nr, you na.l'1e j t, ex p<'ri enced :oclmin:l ,;trntors and businessll'en t0 feed 1n to their J awyers :md tl1e;• c.an pay their lat·l)'erP ••ell cmnpared to the c0nsnmer. ~ir, aJthourl-t the T'nh1ic nt :Uit:les ~oard :Is a p.oorl thinp in C'C"ITIC!"pt tr•e re'l.J prf1hlem ~ ·• :!t}1 the ftmct:loning of it is not the C'Cll'lT'nsHi on of thP ho1<rn nr thP pm.•er of the l1oard j t :Is the po~•er of the C'Oll'pl!n:l eR tl1at po heforP the "o11rrl and the lack of po••er of the c.C"lnRnl"lers.

S1r, :It c'loeR not matter '~hether yon are a la~ryer ,,r not. You ~rnow "'Y frienr< arrues 11. c:!t:lzen, an orninary cit:lzen cannot even P" hefore the> 1,o"ril 11nn represent. n Rroup of people. He can only represent himself. 10G02

June 10, 19711 Tape 3346 Il\-4 '"". !>I'll·"'": "" rl'n on) y rerre!;cn t hir~sel f. Tlut ev<'n j f an "rr'fnnry clth:en e<'nl<l reprCl'<'nt n group of pe<'p 1 e, ~ir, \mere woul~ that pet the cons\~er? Th~ t :ln~ividu nl jq l'till r.oinr to have to f~ce rh~t rrent rower of the co~nanies ~n~ all the ~p~rtise nnd 1111 the inf<'T't"n t~on th11t has bee" pourer! in to the hir-hl .y n11H ]alry'ars repr<' qPnti n~ the corr~nies . !)(\ ren"TI1 1lv l"PCf11c1n", <:ir, however f;ajr the 'Pu~]fc l'tilities ~<' arc! i~ it hnR to 11Rter to arR~entation .

An(1 i.n the major:i ty of .-oses thr> r rcat cnl"oanies nre roinc tCl be more persunsJve and trnre p<'wPrful. hRV<' MC're nrrni"'nts, l"ore points, more 1nfot't'at1or """ rhcr!'for£' .1-re "'"'"~' HlrcJ,. t.o 1dn their case.

Nm~, ho<J ~o we ovcrcol"e this, ~ir? 1 mitht be rule~ mtt. of order, Mr . :::peal·e r, but I voul~ :trprec:latl?' 11 little tJoy bit of Jatiturl1.1 here because I think the r e 1R only one ~:11. y tr> reallv protect the consumer before the P\1blic nci11tics P.na r~ AnQ thnt is 1f the rovee11~ent throurh the ~ep3 r t~ent of CC'nsurr. r Affairr or T'nvil:"oni"Cnt 11.nd Consumer AffairR, t->hatever it is c.~ 1 l e<', provi -'fls cnnsumerR with cj t.lJer 1"oney or e:-:perti.se or both. 10 6 0 ~}

June 10, 1976 Tape 3340' PK - 1 Mr. F. Rowe: In other words, if you are going to have a battery of engineers, lawyers, accountants, cost analysts, business administrators, commerce types, if you are going to have these people feeding the company lawyer representatives the Consumer Affairs Department of the Provincial Government I feel should be responsible for providing the consumer with the same degree of expertise. In other words, if the Newfoundland Federation of Municipalities happen to take up the case against - MR.

PECKFORD: Are they combining their forces now like the other municipalities and get used to having separate legal - MR. ROWE: I honestly do not know.the details of it. MR. PECKFORD: Well I tell you that they are, and now they have a serviced combined effort by a number of various groups to channel all of their efforts - MR. ROWE: Right. MR. PECKFORD: - in this kind of a case. There is one representation before the Public Utilities - MR. ROWE: t1R. PECKFORD: that - HR. ROWE: PECKFORD: MR. ROWE: \~ell that is good. That is excellent.

And the quality o f the work that you ensue from Other consumer groups, you mean? - has never occurred before. I take it the minister means other consumer groups or other local governments or this type of thing. MR. PECKFORD: Right~ Right! MR. ROWE: , Yes,well that is a good thing, Sir, but it does not solve the problem because th~se groups of people do not have the wealth that the companies have, so they are still left without the expertise that I am talking about.

Now what I am saying essentially is this, that it should be the government's responsibility to see to it that the consumer is provided with a replica of the type of representation that the companies, and the type of expertise the companies have working on their pehalf. In other words, if the Light 10604 ,•

June 10, 197.6 Tape 3347 PK - 2 Mr. ltowe: and Power Company, and they are, are using lawyers, of course they are representing them, a group of engineers - AN RON. MEMBER: Mr . Speaker, can we have a quorum in the House? MR. SPEAKER: I am informed that there is a quorum. MR. ROWE: I would like to wind up my remarks, Mr. Speaker, by saying that, you know, the concept of the Public Utilities Board is good.

It is not failing necessarily because of the power, it may be failing because of the lack of power in some cases, where it is failing is the fact that the companies have too much power, too much expertise, too much money, and what the government of this Province should do to protect the consumer, and the hon.

Minister of the Environment and Consumer Affairs should li£ten very carefully to this, should try to arrange throu8h the various nivisions of his department a mechanism or a formula whereby when any group of citizens in this Province wbether they be a small group fighting the Newfoundland Light and Power Company whether they be all the municipalities in this Province,as the minister suggests a lot of groups are getting in, you can have lots of groups, Sir, but I would be willing to bet you any money that there is probably one lawyer desperately making phone calls to probably a few engineering friends• probably to a few professors of engineering up in the University, probably a few professors of Commerce, busineAs school, business administration, and trying to pUt together a case.

What I am saying is that for every engineer, now this may sound to be a little bit of an exaggeration, and a little bit way out, but for every engineer arid every accountant and for every lawyer and for every dollar that a public utility company puts up to state its case it should be the responsibility of this government to do the same for the consumer through some fair and reasonable formula.

Now I realize that this is going to cost the taxpayers money, but it may well save the taxpayers money in the cost of some of the electricity and some of the other services that we are getting, I think it would be money very well spent. MR. MURPHY: MR. ROWE: Would the hon. member Sure, Mr. Speaker. .1flGOS

June 10, 1976 Tape 3347 PK - 3 MR. MURPHY: Following on that argument, and I do not see too much wrong with it, but basically I submit a request to any board for an increase in rates and I supply all this information that the hon. member refers to, now is not that board capable, are they not representing everybody - !1R. ROWE: What board? MR. MURPHY: - in assessing whether these rates are justified, is this not the case or does it depend like on fighting for my life in a court, does it depend on the lawyer, if I can hire $1 million as against $100 one, is that a fact or is a jury and a judge?

I am aust wondering if that is what the genleman is saying, that the board itself is not competent to adjudge on the figures submited that the rate is justified or not, or,you know, that is the only point I am making. MR. ROWE: No, ~1r. Speaker, I am not saying that the board listens to money, you know, listens to $1 million before it listen to $10,000. l1R. MURPHY: No, I do not mean the money. MR. ROWE: What I am saying is that the power of the argument of one group is directly related to the amount of money that that group has, which is namely the company.

And obviously another group, say the consumer, with less money can buy, the word is not buy, or purchase is not the right word, can - MR. MURPHY: afford. MR. ROWE: - afford,cannot afford the say expertise and therefore they cannot present the same powerful argument as the lawyer representative of the company. I am not going to lower myself by suggesting that the Chairman of the board - MR. MURPHY: And I did not suggest it either, you know. MR. ROWE: Right. You know, listens to the money bags before he listens to the consumer. I am quite sure that Mr. Powell listens to the arguments as best he can.

But the fact of the matter is the companies are at an extreme advantage, and the consumers are at an extreme disadvantage. And the only way of resolving the problem is if the government, you know, I am not just saying, you know, it is the government's fault and the government should do this and the government should do 10G0fl

June 10, 1976 Tape 3347 PK - 4 MR. ROWE: that, but the P.C. Administration is in power at the present time, we may be in power in another term, maybe? we will be, Sir, the next term - MR. MURPHY: What makes you extremely positive? MR.

ROWE: And I hope that if I have anything to do with that particular administration, and if I happen to be in Cabinet that I will be able to persuade my Cabinet colleagues or from among the backbenches, I will be able to persuade my caucus colleagues that the Department of the Environment and Consumer Affairs should work out a mechanism or a formula so that any group of consumers in this Province can have a fair hearing, and the only way they can have a fair hearing is if they get the same, within reasonable degrees, the same amount of money and expertise as the companies do.

Now I think I have said it several different ways and I am only wasting the time of the House, Mr. Speaker, if I repeat myself, but I am sincere about that. I think the problem is not necessarily with the Public Utilities Commission and their power, but it is the lack of power of the consumer and the great power of the compantes and the only person, the only group, the only institution in this Province who can help the consumer in this instance is the government of the Province and in particular the Department of Consumer Affairs.

And I sincerely hope that the minister will take these words and thoughts back with him to his department and to his officials and try to figure out some sort of a formula to aid our consuners in this Province who are being chewed up by the big money companies. And the only protection they have basically is the state.

Because these consumers and the various municipalities and the various consumer groups and voluntary groups do not have the money, do not have the expertise, do not have the lawyers and therefore do not have the argument before the Public Utilities Commission, and therefore they lose every single time. 10607

Jnnf> 10, l97f, lB-1 l"P. . SPEAKER : The hon. ,,,1-.er fnr St. Jolm 's East. >'"!' "APSPM .L: ''r. Spe;~l~er, T have a feN observations to ll'ake about this HJ] :in pi!rt:lcnlar 1rith respect to the principle of the PubUc "tilities lloaril npprov:lng the nnnua] hudpets of public utilities.

Th:l.s :1 s the fj rst p•1rpose :In sect:! on one of the amendment. }'y reason for speakinp: to this oart of it is to wonder just hov effect:l.ve -now we ne!"c 11 Pub] ic T'tiJ :lt:ies llo<>rrl of course to see thRt the rates beinr chi'IT!!ed are re;,sonllhl e rates - but J wonder ho~· effective the Ptthl i c !'til ities Tloarils can he Hhen :It only really haFO _iur:lsd:lction over the ret;dle-r of the pm·•er Rnrl ~n that c<>se not cowp]ete .1urisdiction because it does not have iurisnktion ovE'r Newfotmcllann and I.ahraclor Fydro rorporR .t1 on.

TTniler sect:! on 22 of Ne~·rfound] and aTl.d Labrador Hyclro CorporaU.on it say,, ''}1ntw:lthRtllnclinr anyth:!nr: to the contrary ccmta:lnecl in the J>nl-.lic T'til:lties .1\ct", ,-,.rhich :Is th:ls one here, "The Roarcl of r.ow.l'l:lssion of PubJi.c "ti.liti.es constitutecl pursuant to that Act has not .iurisd:fction over the Corporation fC'r ;,ny purpose whatsoever." So th:!s pRrt:!cular amendMent, l'r.

Speaker, Fhile rooc:' because :l.t refines the po~rer of the hoarcl to ex11mine the copital hunpets of public utilities, it does not in MY v:IPI" po a11 far as :It oupht to ro in that T think that the T'ubl j c TTtHit:l es Roarc1 ought to have si.milar power and sim:ll<tr rights ,,ri th respect to Nf'vrfonnnland and Labnu'lor Hydro Corpora