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December 10, 2002

37th Parliament, 3rd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

vol. A

Hansard Transcripts

vol. B

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2002-Dec-10 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Tuesday 10 December 2002 Mardi 10 décembre 2002

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

SCHOOL CLOSURES

HUMAN RIGHTS

HEALTH INSURANCE

BOWMANVILLE

SANTA CLAUSE PARADE

HUMAN RIGHTS

SERVICES FOR THE

DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED

DECORUM IN CHAMBER

GOVERNMENT'S RECORD

BUSINESS AWARDS

VISITOR

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE

ON ESTIMATES

STANDING COMMITTEE

ON ESTIMATES

VISITORS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CONDOMINIUM AMENDMENT ACT

(TRANSIENT TENANCIES), 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LES CONDOMINIUMS

(LOCATIONS TEMPORAIRES)

ELECTRICITY AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR L'ÉLECTRICITÉ

JAY LAWRENCE AND

BART MACKEY MEMORIAL ACT

(HIGHWAY TRAFFIC AMENDMENT), 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 COMMÉMORANT JAY LAWRENCE ET BART MACKEY (MODIFICATION DU CODE DE LA ROUTE)

FOOD SAFETY AND QUALITY

AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA QUALITÉ ET LA SALUBRITÉ

DES ALIMENTS

MOTIONS

HOUSE SITTINGS

CONSIDERATION OF BILL PR17

VISITORS

DEFERRED VOTES

SUSTAINABLE WATER AND

SEWAGE SYSTEMS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LA DURABILITÉ

DES RÉSEAUX D'EAU ET D'ÉGOUTS

MEMBER'S BIRTHDAY

CONSUMER PROTECTION STATUTE

LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT DES LOIS

EN CE QUI CONCERNE

LA PROTECTION DU CONSOMMATEUR

SAFE DRINKING WATER ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LA SALUBRITÉ

DE L'EAU POTABLE

FUNERAL, BURIAL AND

CREMATION SERVICES ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LES SERVICES

FUNÉRAIRES ET LES SERVICES

D'ENTERREMENT ET DE CRÉMATION

2010 COMMONWEALTH GAMES

VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

DOMESTIC VIOLENCE

LOBBYISTS

PRIVATE HEALTH CARE SERVICES

FOREST INDUSTRY

PROVINCE OF ONTARIO

SAVINGS OFFICE

AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY

WORKPLACE SAFETY

AND INSURANCE APPEALS TRIBUNAL

RESEARCH STUDY

BORDER CROSSING AT WINDSOR

MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

LONG-TERM CARE

FETAL ALCOHOL SYNDROME

BEREAVEMENT SERVICES

ASSISTED HOUSING

VISITOR

PETITIONS

HIGHWAY 407

CHILD CARE

CAT SCANNER

NATURAL GAS RATES

EDUCATION FUNDING

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

ALUMINUM SMELTER

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

PENSION PLANS

POST-SECONDARY

EDUCATION FUNDING

MEDICAL REVIEW COMMITTEE

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

HAZARDOUS WASTE

EDUCATION TAX CREDIT

NOTICES OF DISSATISFACTION

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

ADJOURNMENT DEBATE

DAIRY INDUSTRY

MINISTER'S COMMENTS

Tuesday 10 December 2002 Mardi 10 décembre 2002

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

SCHOOL CLOSURES

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): Tonight at a meeting, the hand-picked supervisor of Elizabeth Witmer and Ernie Eves is going to recommend

the closure of up to 11 schools in the city of Hamilton. This is in view of the fact that as we speak here today, a report is being released that is going to deal with the funding formula. It is

the height of irresponsibility and arrogance for this government and for their hand-picked supervisor to go ahead with school closures while a funding formula that could fundamentally change the

way we fund education in Ontario and possibly save those schools -- I'm asking the government, through the minister today, to direct her supervisor not to proceed with these school closures until

the funding formula has been put in place and the recommendations have been implemented.

Particularly affected, among others, is Lloyd George school in my riding, a small school in an industrial neighbourhood on Beach Road. This is not simply a

school where kids go during the day; it's a community centre. It's a place where people meet at night; it's a gathering point. It is the heart of this community. I tell this government that if you

close Lloyd George school, you'll rip the heart out of this neighbourhood, a neighbourhood that takes pride in itself. It's a small neighbourhood right in the shadow of the steel mills, but it's a

neighbourhood that cares. Kids care about each other. The parents care about each other. It is a school where the community comes together. It will be absolutely disgraceful if this government,

through their hand-picked supervisor tonight, recommends the closure of Lloyd George school and the other schools in the city of Hamilton.

You're not closing schools; you're destroying communities. I ask you to wait. Wait until the funding formula is in place and make recommendations based on that.

Don't do the irresponsible thing.

HUMAN RIGHTS

Mr AL McDonald (Nipissing): It is an honour to invite all Ontarians to celebrate International Human Rights Day. Fifty-four years ago, the

United Nations adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Ontario has a proud record of leadership in protecting human rights. In fact, this year marks the 40th anniversary of the Ontario Human Rights Code, the first of

its kind in Canada. The Ontario Human Rights Code mirrors the universal values of equality, dignity, tolerance and non-discrimination. Our respect for human rights underlies Ontario's success as a

diverse, peaceful and prosperous society.

Governments have a clear responsibility to protect human rights. But for human rights to flourish, people must accept individual responsibility to uphold human

rights in their communities.

This morning, Lieutenant Governor James K. Bartleman awarded the Lincoln M. Alexander Awards for 2002 to two outstanding young people for their leadership in

eliminating racial discrimination: Bikramjit Nahal of Dundas and Tamara McDonald of Thunder Bay. It's especially appropriate that this year's recipients be honoured on International Human Rights

Day.

The dedication of these two people shows the ideals of human rights advocacy in action. Ontarians support a society where every human being is treated with

dignity and respect. Let us continue to work together so that this new century will truly be an age of universal human rights.

HEALTH INSURANCE

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): A major new crisis is beginning to confront the health care field, and that crisis revolves around the

skyrocketing costs of insurance and the availability of insurance coverage in certain categories.

A prime example of this problem is being confronted by respite care workers in the Niagara Region, and likely in the rest of the province, who deliver this

service in the homes of their clients. Last year, the service providers paid $52 each in insurance premiums to receive coverage. This year, it has been increasingly difficult for these independent

workers to obtain coverage, and if such coverage were to be available, it would likely be at a cost ten times higher that that charged last year. Since those who hold these positions receive only a

modest income, huge increases in insurance costs cannot be afforded by the workers.

Since the workers cannot be expected to absorb this dramatic rise in insurance premiums and the clients cannot sustain an increase in the fees they pay, both are

looking to the Ontario Ministry of Health to increase its funding to this service to reflect these additional burdensome costs.

I urge the Ministry of Health to move immediately to provide appropriate funding increases and to work with the Ministry of Consumer and Business Services to

enlist insurance coverage at an affordable rate for the workers affected. People in a vulnerable position look to the Ontario government to assist them when the need is great and their own ability

to meet this genuine need is beyond their personal reach. I believe they need and deserve this helping hand from their provincial government.

BOWMANVILLE

SANTA CLAUSE PARADE

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): I am pleased to rise in the House today to pay tribute to one of Bowmanville's most enduring traditions, our Santa

Claus parade. Whether it's a church group, a service club, a marching band, a business or a youth organization, they all come together every year for the parade.

These volunteers from across our community create an event that has delighted generations of children, as well as their parents, grandparents and indeed families

throughout the municipality of Clarington in my riding of Durham. I should add that this is a non-commercial parade. You won't find advertising, even on my own float, and banners, because the

objective is to create an event that is strictly for the community, with the possible exception of my Liberal federal member. Nevertheless, over 100 businesses are among the strong and proud

supporters of the parade.

I can assure you the response each year is tremendous. Well over 10,000 visitors crowd the downtown streets to watch and cheer on their friends and neighbours in

the procession. This year, our 41st annual parade was held November 16. It included close to 60 floats, bands and other entries. The theme was "Kids Are Christmas."

I would like to pay tribute to all those who made the event possible either by attending or by participating. Since it wouldn't be possible to name all the

people, although I'd like the time, they include Valerie Gardiner, Sharon Smith, Roger Leetooze, Susan St. John, Valerie McCormick, Stacy Belanger, Greg Belanger, Betty Irving, Rob F1ynn, Tammy

Johnson, Terryl Tzikas, Sheri Lusted and Marie Hammond. As usual, they did an outstanding job.

The Bowmanville Santa Claus parade unites our community like no other event. It shows that the community spirit is a very close neighbour of the spirit of

Christmas. I'm pleased to say you'll find all of these spirits always in my riding of Durham.

HUMAN RIGHTS

Mr Gregory S. Sorbara (Vaughan-King-Aurora): As my party's human rights critic, I am pleased and honoured to be able to rise today to say a few

words on this, the 54th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Passed by the United Nations on December 10, 1948, 54 years ago the world gathered together to make a profound commitment to the equality of every human being in

the world. This is a living document and is the first pillar of the 20th century's human rights laws and the cornerstone of the universal human rights movement.

For all the changes the world has seen, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights remains at least as relevant and fundamentally important as it was on the day

it was adopted 54 years ago. Its principles provide for all governments an ultimate standard, a measure of their legitimacy and their effectiveness in serving the best interests of their

citizens.

Let us not think that the battle to protect and enhance human rights in Ontario is over. We have much to do for communities that historically have been on the

margin and have suffered the tyranny of the majority in Ontario.

The quest for human rights and justice is a noble cause in its own right. But it is even more, for it embodies all the basic purposes of the United Nations:

peace, justice and prosperity for all. I invite all my friends in this Legislature to celebrate our undying commitment to human rights for all.

SERVICES FOR THE

DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton West): Over the last seven years, we've seen how the Tory obsession with tax cuts has steadily eroded the

services we most value in our communities. Gutting services to give tax cuts to the wealthy has hurt many of Hamilton's most vulnerable citizens, especially those with developmental

disabilities.

Contact Hamilton was created by the Ministry of Community and Social Services as the single point of service access for persons with developmental disabilities.

They have over 100 children and adults on wait lists who need developmental services, including accommodation, respite care, vocational services and day supports. When future planning needs are

included, the numbers rise to more than 500 people who need these services.

The biggest problem, apart from the lack of services, has been the complete lack of designated beds in Hamilton for those with developmental disabilities. This

has hurt individuals like Joey, a young person with developmental disabilities who lives in our community. Back in October, when the government refused to recognize the shortage of educational

assistants in Hamilton, Joey's caregivers were forced to try to find a respite bed for him. At that time, there were no respite beds allocated for adults with developmental disabilities, and Joey

was bounced around from facility to facility because they could not meet his needs.

Hundreds more children and adults are not getting the help they need. If this government were to spend half the money on community services that it spends on

consultants, this rapidly growing crisis would not exist. When will you stop hurting our most vulnerable citizens and allocate adequate funding for more beds and programs? It's time you treated

those with developmental disabilities with the respect they deserve and the services they need.

DECORUM IN CHAMBER

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): As we approach the end of this session, it is appropriate to reflect on what it means to have the

privilege of serving in this House.

In all Parliaments, we will always have different opinions, but we should be able to show consideration for different points of view. Healthy debate is a good

thing. In recent weeks, though, there has been an appalling lack of respect for each other in this place. In my 18 years here, I don't recall ever having witnessed such an absence of decorum. Our

poor behaviour is an insult to the public who are our guests when our actions go beyond different partisan opinions into personal attacks and poor language.

There are, of course, times when we do put partisan differences aside and come together with a consensus; for instance, on the reports of the alternative fuels

and Legislative Assembly committees. When we speak with one voice, our collegiality is heartwarming. For instance, I wish to tell you how much it meant to my husband, Ken, and to me when all

members rose last month to recognize our 45th wedding anniversary. May I thank you all for that; it was deeply appreciated.

I truly believe it is a privilege to serve our electorate and to act in a way that makes them proud of us. We should be demonstrating the respect and dignity

that this hallowed chamber represents.

I would also like to convey my appreciation to the staff who support us: parking and security, maintenance, the table staff, Hansard, committees, broadcast and

interpretation, library and research, administration and information systems, interparliamentary and public relations, and our personal and caucus staff. Without you, we could not do our work.

Thank you and may God bless you all this Christmas and throughout the year ahead.

GOVERNMENT'S RECORD

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): I arrived in my office yesterday to find another example of what I call the urban myth that the

Conservatives are good managers. Amazingly, here we are almost at the end of the year, and what do we get but the government's business plans delivered to us. Frankly, if it were a company, it

would be laughable. Here they are with three weeks to go in the year and they finally deliver the business plans.

Last week, the auditor -- if it wasn't so serious, it would be funny -- pointed out that many of the consultants they hired haven't even paid their back taxes.

Half the corporations in Ontario not only are not paying their taxes, they're not filing their income taxes.

We found that the government laid off 40 people and within days hired them back at twice the rate. There was a consultant paid $725 a day in April, $1,800 a day

in May and $2,100 a day in September. In four months, it went from $725 a day to $2,100.

The government tabled its economic outlook here. The interest cost right now is $700 million more than when they took over, in spite of interest rates

dropping.

I say to the public of Ontario, another urban myth, that the Conservatives can manage the finances and the economy, is not true. Here we are, the business plans

being presented to us virtually weeks before the year ends; the debt going up; the auditor almost laughing at the government, as I say, if it wasn't so serious. Again, it's another urban myth that

needs to be dispelled.

BUSINESS AWARDS

Mr Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): I rise today to highlight a special event held recently in my riding of Parry Sound-Muskoka. On Saturday,

November 30, more than 200 people gathered at the Jolly Roger hotel just outside of Parry Sound to celebrate the 105th annual general meeting and gala evening of the Parry Sound and Area Chamber of

Commerce.

It was a great honour to participate in the annual business awards ceremony and to be on hand as the Minister of Northern Development and Mines, the Honourable

Jim Wilson, delivered the keynote speech.

As a testament to the honour of receiving one of these awards, I would like to point out that there were so many nominations in some categories that the judges

decided on a tie.

This was the case with the Entrepreneur of the Year award, which I had the privilege of presenting to two worthy recipients. The first winner of this prestigious

award was Murray Orr of Orr's Fine Meats. The second recipients of the Entrepreneur of the Year award were Ted and Jocelyn Shipman, owners of E.A. Shipman Electric.

I would like to recognize all of the businesses that received awards at this year's ceremony. Ms Miranda Chivers received the President's Award for her work on

various volunteer committees. The Whitestone Lake Resort owners and operators, George and Joey Deadman and Les and Pauline Love, received the Tourism Award for their outstanding efforts in growing

tourism in the Whitestone Lake area. Mr Peter Kropf of Kropf Industrial Inc received the Industry Award for his commitment to the local economy.

I would ask that all members of the House join me in congratulating all the recipients of this year's awards for the dedication and hard work they provide to

their communities.

VISITOR

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Just before we begin, we have a special guest in the Speaker's gallery. Joining us today is Monsieur Jean-Louis

Hérivault, Chef de Poste of the Bureau de Québec in Toronto. Please join me in welcoming our special guest.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE

ON ESTIMATES

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Standing order 62(

a) provides that the standing committee on estimates shall present one report with respect to all

of the estimates and supplementary estimates considered pursuant to standing orders 59 and 61 no later than the third Thursday in November of each calendar year.

The House not having received a report from the standing committee on estimates for certain ministries on Thursday, November 21, 2002, as required by the

standing orders of this House, pursuant to standing order 62(b), the supplementary estimates before the committee of the Ministry of Community, Family and Children's Services, the Ministry of

Health and Long-Term Care, the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines, and the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities are deemed to be passed by the committee and are deemed to be

reported to and received by the House.

M. Gilles Bisson (Timmins-Baie James): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Monsieur le Président, je demanderais le consentement unanime de

l'assemblée aujourd'hui pour passer en deuxième et troisième lecture le projet de loi que j'ai intitulé projet de loi 202 sur le traitement partiel des rapports officiels en

être capable de rectifier ce problème en passant cette loi, et je demanderais le consentement unanime pour être capable de passer cette loi cet après-midi.

The Speaker: The member will know -- I believe this is relating to the two languages in committee?

Mr Bisson: Unfortunately, far too often you have to do it in both languages to clearly get people to understand what you're doing. As you know,

currently in the province of Ontario this Legislature operates in both official languages when it comes to laws and other documents that we deal with here in the Legislature. The problem we have is

unanimous consent for that law to be passed here today, this afternoon.

Interjection: It was the wrong bill number.

The Speaker: Je comprends. The problem wasn't with the French; it was with the bill that you asked for. You asked for a bill?

M. Bisson: C'est pour avoir des rapports officiels en deux langues -- 202.

The Speaker: We're having trouble with that bill. That's the problem, not the language.

M. Bisson: L'habileté d'introduire et passer cette loi cet après midi -- c'est bien clair ?

The Speaker: If you're asking for unanimous consent, we need to --

Interjection.

The Speaker: Which bill? Quel numéro ? You don't know the number. Well, we can't very well ask, regardless of the language --

Interjections.

The Speaker: We'll continue; we'll try to work it out.

Reports by committees?

STANDING COMMITTEE

ON ESTIMATES

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough-Rouge River): I beg leave to present a report from the standing committee on estimates.

Interjection: What does the report say?

Mr Curling: Dispense.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Dispense. No further action is required.

VISITORS

Hon David Turnbull (Associate Minister of Enterprise, Opportunity and Innovation): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'm sure all members would

like to join me in welcoming the Barrett family, the parents of one of our pages, Michael Barrett, today in the gallery.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): We welcome our guests.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CONDOMINIUM AMENDMENT ACT

(TRANSIENT TENANCIES), 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LES CONDOMINIUMS

(LOCATIONS TEMPORAIRES)

Mr Smitherman moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 224,

An Act to amend the Condominium Act, 1998 to limit the use of condominiums by transient tenants / Projet de loi 224, Loi modifiant la Loi de

1998 sur les condominiums afin de limiter l'usage des condominiums par des locataires de passage.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr George Smitherman (Toronto Centre-Rosedale): The lack of clarity by members indicates that I should say this would not affect your right as

parliamentarians to lease on a longer-term basis a condominium in downtown Toronto. But this bill does seek to limit a circumstance occurring whereby condominium owners, some of whom are in the

gallery today, are living in their condominium units and the unit right next door is being operated with a different person in it every night, just like a hotel. This seeks to limit that

practice.

M. Gilles Bisson (Timmins-Baie James): Sur un point d'ordre, monsieur le Président : Pour une raison ou une autre la table n'a pas

ramassé la Loi 145, selon ce Feuilleton. So it's Bill 145, as printed in the Orders and Notices paper that is before us now.

The Speaker: The member is asking to proceed for second and third reading of Bill 145,

An Act to amend the French Language Services Act to

Is there unanimous consent? I'm afraid I heard some noes.

ELECTRICITY AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR L'ÉLECTRICITÉ

Mr Lalonde moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 225,

An Act to amend the Electricity Act, 1998 / Projet de loi 225, Loi modifiant la Loi de 1998 sur l'électricité.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell): This bill amends the Electricity Act, 1998, to give municipal electricity utilities the

right to purchase the distribution and retail operations of Hydro One within their municipal boundaries. Municipal corporations are also given the right of first refusal to purchase another

municipality's electricity utility if the other municipality decides to dispose of its electricity utility.

Because of recent amalgamations of municipalities in Ontario, many hydro consumers in rural areas such as Ottawa, Hamilton, Sudbury and many others, are faced

with higher electricity bills than those in urban areas. This bill will create a fair environment for all hydro consumers.

JAY LAWRENCE AND

BART MACKEY MEMORIAL ACT

(HIGHWAY TRAFFIC AMENDMENT), 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 COMMÉMORANT JAY LAWRENCE ET BART MACKEY (MODIFICATION DU CODE DE LA ROUTE)

Mr McDonald moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 226,

An Act in memory of Jay Lawrence and Bart Mackey to amend the Highway Traffic Act / Projet de loi 226, Loi modifiant le Code de la route à

la mémoire de Jay Lawrence et Bart Mackey.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr AL McDonald (Nipissing): I believe this bill will help save our youth from possible injury and death. I look forward to speedy passage of

this bill.

FOOD SAFETY AND QUALITY

AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA QUALITÉ ET LA SALUBRITÉ

DES ALIMENTS

Mr Peters moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 227,

An Act to amend the Food Safety and Quality Act, 2001 / Projet de loi 227, Loi modifiant la Loi de 2001 sur la qualité et la salubrité des

aliments.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): This amendment to the Food Safety and Quality Act will allow the province to make good on its

promise to the dairy farmers of Ontario more than a year ago. The repeal of the Edible Oil Products Act is set to take place in June 2003. Dairy farmers are prepared to accept the act's repeal with

an extension to ensure that all regulatory frameworks are in place. The former minister, Mr Coburn, acknowledged the concerns of the dairy farmers regarding the lack of federal safeguards to ensure

that products are labelled properly. The minister plans to remove reference to the June 2003 repeal. By moving the repeal deadline to June 2005, all stakeholders in the industry will have the

necessary time to collaboratively ensure that regulations are in place that adequately protect not only the dairy industry but consumers as well as stakeholders from the edible oils industry.

Mr Speaker, I seek unanimous consent that this bill be called for second and third reading.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? I'm afraid I heard some noes.

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor West): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Yesterday it was brought to our attention that the sensitive lists for

tax assessments that were made available to us for Toronto and Windsor are now not available for the other regions in Ontario. We're requesting that the government table those lists today.

The Speaker: That's not a point of order, but I appreciate your help.

MOTIONS

HOUSE SITTINGS

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): I move that notwithstanding the motion passed by the House on

Monday, November 18, 2002, pursuant to standing order 9(c)(ii), the House shall meet from 6:45 pm to midnight on Tuesday, December 10, 2002, Wednesday, December 11, 2002, and Thursday, December 12,

2002, for the purpose of considering government business.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Mr Stockwell moves that notwithstanding the motion passed by the House on Monday, November 18, 2002 -- dispense?

No, they want to hear it -- pursuant to standing order 9(c)(ii), the House shall meet from 6:45 pm to midnight on Tuesday, December 10, 2002, Wednesday, December 11, 2002, and Thursday, December

12, 2002, for the purpose of considering government business.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour will please say "aye."

All those opposed will please say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1403 to 1408.

The Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Ayes

Agostino, Dominic

Arnott, Ted

Baird, John R.

Barrett, Toby

Bartolucci, Rick

Beaubien, Marcel

Bountrogianni, Marie

Bradley, James J.

Brown, Michael A.

Bryant, Michael

Caplan, David

Chudleigh, Ted

Clark, Brad

Cleary, John C.

Clement, Tony

Coburn, Brian

Colle, Mike

Conway, Sean G.

Cordiano, Joseph

Crozier, Bruce

Cunningham, Dianne

Curling, Alvin

DeFaria, Carl

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Ecker, Janet

Elliott, Brenda

Flaherty, Jim

Galt, Doug

Gerretsen, John

Gilchrist, Steve

Gill, Raminder

Gravelle, Michael

Guzzo, Garry J.

Hardeman, Ernie

Hastings, John

Hoy, Pat

Hudak, Tim

Jackson, Cameron

Johns, Helen

Johnson, Bert

Kells, Morley

Klees, Frank

Kwinter, Monte

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Levac, David

Marland, Margaret

Martiniuk, Gerry

Maves, Bart

Mazzilli, Frank

McDonald, AL

McLeod, Lyn

McMeekin, Ted

Miller, Norm

Molinari, Tina R.

Munro, Julia

Mushinski, Marilyn

Newman, Dan

O'Toole, John

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Parsons, Ernie

Peters, Steve

Phillips, Gerry

Pupatello, Sandra

Ramsay, David

Runciman, Robert W.

Ruprecht, Tony

Sampson, Rob

Sergio, Mario

Sorbara, Greg

Spina, Joseph

Sterling, Norman W.

Stewart, R. Gary

Stockwell, Chris

Tascona, Joseph N.

Turnbull, David

Wettlaufer, Wayne

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Wood, Bob

Young, David S.

The Speaker: All those opposed will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Nays

Bisson, Gilles

Kormos, Peter

Martel, Shelley

Martin, Tony

Prue, Michael

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): They ayes are 82; the nays are 5.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

CONSIDERATION OF BILL PR17

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I think I have consent to send

this to committee.

I move that standing order 87 respecting notice of committee hearing be suspended for consideration of Bill Pr17,

An Act respecting the Reena Foundation, by

the standing committee on regulations and private bills on Wednesday, December 11, 2002.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): The minister is asking for unanimous consent. Agreed.

VISITORS

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I would like recognize Mr Remple's grade 10 class from Bowmanville High School who

are visiting with us today.

Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'd like to welcome Mr Myrvold and Ms Hope, the principal and

vice-principal of Adam Scott school, who are the principal and vice-principal of Lauren Van Leeuwen, our page. Welcome.

DEFERRED VOTES

SUSTAINABLE WATER AND

SEWAGE SYSTEMS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LA DURABILITÉ

DES RÉSEAUX D'EAU ET D'ÉGOUTS

Deferred vote on the motion for third reading of Bill 175,

An Act respecting the cost of water and waste water services / Projet de loi 175, Loi

concernant le coût des services d'approvisionnement en eau et des services relatifs aux eaux usées.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Call in the members; this will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1412 to 1417.

The Speaker: All those in favour will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Ayes

Arnott, Ted

Baird, John R.

Barrett, Toby

Beaubien, Marcel

Chudleigh, Ted

Clark, Brad

Clement, Tony

Coburn, Brian

Cunningham, Dianne

DeFaria, Carl

Ecker, Janet

Elliott, Brenda

Flaherty, Jim

Galt, Doug

Gilchrist, Steve

Gill, Raminder

Guzzo, Garry J.

Hardeman, Ernie

Hastings, John

Hudak, Tim

Jackson, Cameron

Johns, Helen

Johnson, Bert

Kells, Morley

Klees, Frank

Marland, Margaret

Martiniuk, Gerry

Maves, Bart

Mazzilli, Frank

McDonald, AL

Miller, Norm

Molinari, Tina R.

Munro, Julia

Mushinski, Marilyn

Newman, Dan

O'Toole, John

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Runciman, Robert W.

Sampson, Rob

Spina, Joseph

Sterling, Norman W.

Stewart, R. Gary

Stockwell, Chris

Tascona, Joseph N.

Turnbull, David

Wettlaufer, Wayne

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Wood, Bob

Young, David

The Speaker: All those opposed will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Nays

Agostino, Dominic

Bartolucci, Rick

Bisson, Gilles

Bountrogianni, Marie

Bradley, James J.

Brown, Michael A.

Bryant, Michael

Caplan, David

Christopherson, David

Churley, Marilyn

Cleary, John C.

Colle, Mike

Conway, Sean G.

Cordiano, Joseph

Crozier, Bruce

Curling, Alvin

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Gerretsen, John

Gravelle, Michael

Hoy, Pat

Kormos, Peter

Kwinter, Monte

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Levac, David

Martel, Shelley

Martin, Tony

McLeod, Lyn

McMeekin, Ted

Parsons, Ernie

Peters, Steve

Phillips, Gerry

Prue, Michael

Pupatello, Sandra

Ramsay, David

Ruprecht, Tony

Sergio, Mario

Smitherman, George

Sorbara, Greg

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 50; the nays are 40.

The Speaker: I declare the motion.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

MEMBER'S BIRTHDAY

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I just want the House and those watching to acknowledge that this a

great day for my colleague from Hamilton Mountain, Marie Bountrogianni, her 29th birthday. She keeps holding there. Congratulations and best wishes.

CONSUMER PROTECTION STATUTE

LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 MODIFIANT DES LOIS

EN CE QUI CONCERNE

LA PROTECTION DU CONSOMMATEUR

Deferred vote on the motion for third reading of Bill 180,

An Act to enact, amend or revise various Acts related to consumer protection / Projet de loi 180,

Loi édictant, modifiant ou révisant diverses lois portant sur la protection du consommateur.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells range from 1421 to 1422.

The Speaker: All those in favour will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Ayes

Agostino, Dominic

Arnott, Ted

Baird, John R.

Barrett, Toby

Bartolucci, Rick

Beaubien, Marcel

Bisson, Gilles

Bountrogianni, Marie

Bradley, James J.

Brown, Michael A.

Bryant, Michael

Caplan, David

Christopherson, David

Chudleigh, Ted

Churley, Marilyn

Clark, Brad

Cleary, John C.

Clement, Tony

Coburn, Brian

Colle, Mike

Conway, Sean G.

Cordiano, Joseph

Crozier, Bruce

Cunningham, Dianne

Curling, Alvin

DeFaria, Carl

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Ecker, Janet

Elliott, Brenda

Flaherty, Jim

Galt, Doug

Gerretsen, John

Gilchrist, Steve

Gill, Raminder

Gravelle, Michael

Guzzo, Garry J.

Hardeman, Ernie

Hastings, John

Hoy, Pat

Hudak, Tim

Jackson, Cameron

Johns, Helen

Johnson, Bert

Kells, Morley

Klees, Frank

Kormos, Peter

Kwinter, Monte

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Levac, David

Marland, Margaret

Martel, Shelley

Martin, Tony

Martiniuk, Gerry

Maves, Bart

Mazzilli, Frank

McDonald, AL

McLeod, Lyn

McMeekin, Ted

Miller, Norm

Molinari, Tina R.

Munro, Julia

Mushinski, Marilyn

Newman, Dan

O'Toole, John

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Parsons, Ernie

Peters, Steve

Phillips, Gerry

Prue, Michael

Pupatello, Sandra

Ramsay, David

Runciman, Robert W.

Ruprecht, Tony

Sampson, Rob

Sergio, Mario

Smitherman, George

Sorbara, Greg

Spina, Joseph

Sterling, Norman W.

Stewart, R. Gary

Stockwell, Chris

Tascona, Joseph N.

Turnbull, David

Wettlaufer, Wayne

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Wood, Bob

Young, David

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 90; the nays are 0.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

SAFE DRINKING WATER ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LA SALUBRITÉ

DE L'EAU POTABLE

Deferred vote on the motion for third reading of Bill 195,

An Act respecting safe drinking water / Projet de loi 195, Loi ayant trait à la salubrité

de l'eau potable.

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): Same vote.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Same vote? Agreed? Agreed.

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 90; the nays are 0.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

FUNERAL, BURIAL AND

CREMATION SERVICES ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 SUR LES SERVICES

FUNÉRAIRES ET LES SERVICES

D'ENTERREMENT ET DE CRÉMATION

Deferred vote on the motion for third reading of Bill 209,

An Act respecting funerals, burials, cremations and related services and providing for the amendment

of other statutes / Projet de loi 209, Loi traitant des funérailles, des enterrements, des crémations et des services connexes et prévoyant la modification d'autres lois.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1426 to 1427.

The Speaker: All those in favour will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Ayes

Arnott, Ted

Baird, John R.

Barrett, Toby

Beaubien, Marcel

Chudleigh, Ted

Clark, Brad

Clement, Tony

Coburn, Brian

Cunningham, Dianne

DeFaria, Carl

Ecker, Janet

Elliott, Brenda

Flaherty, Jim

Galt, Doug

Gilchrist, Steve

Gill, Raminder

Guzzo, Garry J.

Hardeman, Ernie

Hastings, John

Hudak, Tim

Jackson, Cameron

Johns, Helen

Johnson, Bert

Kells, Morley

Klees, Frank

Marland, Margaret

Martiniuk, Gerry

Maves, Bart

Mazzilli, Frank

McDonald, AL

Miller, Norm

Molinari, Tina R.

Munro, Julia

Mushinski, Marilyn

Newman, Dan

O'Toole, John

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Runciman, Robert W.

Sampson, Rob

Spina, Joseph

Sterling, Norman W.

Stewart, R. Gary

Stockwell, Chris

Tascona, Joseph N.

Turnbull, David

Wettlaufer, Wayne

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Wood, Bob

Young, David

The Speaker: All those opposed will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Nays

Agostino, Dominic

Bartolucci, Rick

Bisson, Gilles

Bountrogianni, Marie

Bradley, James J.

Brown, Michael A.

Bryant, Michael

Caplan, David

Christopherson, David

Churley, Marilyn

Cleary, John C.

Colle, Mike

Conway, Sean G.

Cordiano, Joseph

Crozier, Bruce

Curling, Alvin

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Gerretsen, John

Gravelle, Michael

Hoy, Pat

Kormos, Peter

Kwinter, Monte

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Levac, David

Martel, Shelley

Martin, Tony

McLeod, Lyn

McMeekin, Ted

Parsons, Ernie

Peters, Steve

Phillips, Gerry

Prue, Michael

Pupatello, Sandra

Ramsay, David

Ruprecht, Tony

Sergio, Mario

Smitherman, George

Sorbara, Greg

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 50; the nays are 40.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

2010 COMMONWEALTH GAMES

Hon Frank Klees (Minister of Tourism and Recreation): I seek unanimous consent move a motion relating to the 2010 Commonwealth Games.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is there unanimous consent? Agreed.

Hon Mr Klees: This motion is seconded by the member from Hamilton East and the member from Hamilton West, I believe. It reads as follows:

"Whereas the Hamilton bid for the 2010 Commonwealth Games has received the support of the Premier of Ontario, the Minister of Tourism and Recreation, the

leader of the official opposition, the leader of the third party, and all Hamilton MPPs;

"Therefore, let it be resolved that the Legislative Assembly of Ontario endorse and support the city of Hamilton's bid for the 2010 Commonwealth Games."

The Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

VISITORS

Hon John R. Baird (Minister of Energy, minister responsible for francophone affairs): I know that all members of the House will want to join

me in welcoming our visitor in the gallery, the former mayor of Ottawa, Jim Watson.

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): I am pleased to welcome the members of ONEIA, the Ontario

Environment Industry Association, to Queen's Park. I would also like to inform everyone that today is Environment Industry Day, and we are invited to a reception they are hosting between 5 and 7

today in rooms 228 and 230. I thank you for coming and I welcome you to Queen's Park.

ORAL QUESTIONS

DOMESTIC VIOLENCE

Mrs Marie Bountrogianni (Hamilton Mountain): My question is for the Attorney General. Minister, you are no doubt familiar with the case of

Gillian Hadley, the Pickering woman shot dead by her estranged husband, who was in violation of his bail conditions. An inquest into her death came back with some very specific recommendations. You

have ignored most of them.

The jury specifically told you to keep those who are accused of violating their bail or probation conditions behind bars until trial. Today we learned that in

more than half the cases, 58% of the time in Toronto alone, you are letting these men out to roam freely and potentially stalk, abuse and kill their partners.

Minister, spousal homicides in Ontario are on the rise. Instead of getting tough on these violent offenders, you are letting them walk away with a slap on the

wrist. Why have you ignored most of the Hadley inquest jury recommendations and why have you abandoned victims of domestic violence?

Hon David Young (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs): I thank the member opposite for raising this important issue. Let

me begin by saying that our hearts and our thoughts go out to the victims of these terrible crimes, and of course to the families, who continue to suffer each day.

We find ourselves in a situation, when these occurrences take place, where we do understand that we must do more. Indeed, what occurs when these terrible

tragedies take place is that our resolve strengthens. We are very proud of the fact that as a government we have done more than our predecessors in Ontario and indeed we've done more than any other

provincial government. But the fact that we are spending $145 million each and every year isn't enough. We understand that there have to be some changes made, and that's why we've called on our

federal colleagues, the Liberals in Ottawa, to amend the Criminal Code to ensure that if an individual breaches their bail in a domestic violence case, they go to jail. I hope you will join us in

calling on the federal Liberals to make that change.

Mrs Bountrogianni: We are the provincial government and we have responsibilities for the province of Ontario. If your definition of

strengthening your resolve is cutting funding to second-stage housing, that's not much of a resolve, Minister.

Your record on domestic violence is one of abandonment and neglect. A study by the Women Abuse Council of Toronto shows just how little you care about standing

up for victims for crime. Of those convicted of domestic abuse, 37% got conditional discharges, 25% had their sentences suspended and another 7% got off with some house arrest. Under your watch,

only 20% of abusers serve any time in jail. That's your record on crime: 20% in jail. The rest just walk away.

We know from the Provincial Auditor's report that when criminals are let loose on the streets in Ontario you don't keep track of them. You don't enforce court

orders. You just turn the other way. Minister, stand up and tell the women who are terrified for their lives why you refuse to protect them and put their abusers behind bars.

Hon Mr Young: Let me just comment on the questioner's statement that this is a provincial issue. When it comes to matters that are provincial

issues, we're prepared to do whatever we can. The member's quite right to be asking questions about this serious issue, but by the same token, she must acknowledge that there are some issues that

are within the provincial domain and some within the federal domain. She knows that when it comes to amending the Criminal Code, that is something that only the federal government can do. Instead

of being partisan on this issue, she should join with us in asking the federal government to amend the Criminal Code in the way I suggested. That's the only point.

Now, in terms of provincial initiatives, I'm very proud of the fact that as a government we have implemented or are in the process of implementing in excess of

90% of the recommendations that came from the May-Iles inquest. We heard what the jury had to say. We are thankful for their assistance in this regard, and we are acting.

Mrs Bountrogianni: Minister, with all due respect, involving the federal government is not the only point.

With respect to the Hadley recommendations, a search on the Web site doesn't show anything in your women's directorate about any Hadley recommendations. All

your talk won't protect a single woman from being abused. That will take real action. You've abandoned victims of crime in Ontario. You stand by and do nothing while convicted criminals roam our

streets.

One way to protect women who have fled abuse is through second-stage housing, but you eliminated all of the funding for counselling and support services in

second-stage housing that abused women relied on. You abandon the victims and take away their programs and you side with the criminals and let them roam free.

Dalton McGuinty has a plan to get tough on crime. He'll restore funding to second-stage housing and he'll make sure abusers stay where they belong, behind

bars. We have a real plan to protect women across Ontario. If you won't stand up for victims of crime, then get out of the way and let Dalton McGuinty and the Ontario Liberals do the job.

Hon Mr Young: Rather than try and treat this very important issue as a political football, I would suggest that the member opposite work with

us and try to encourage all involved in the system to do better. That's what we're doing, and we are listening to what the Hadley inquest and the jury recommended.

We have acted, Mr Speaker, and with your permission I'll review, cite the particular recommendation number. We have enhanced bail training for crown attorneys

in matters related to domestic violence; that was recommendation number 8. Recommendation number 50 was for local domestic violence coordinating committees to be established; we have acted in that

regard. We have acted in relation to recommendation number 10: we have asked the federal Minister of Justice to amend the Criminal Code so that there is a reverse onus in place for domestic

violence cases where there is a breach of bail. We've acted in relation to recommendation 38; that relates to a $5-million enhancement to safety and security and accountability when it comes to

shelters for abused women and children. We've acted in relation to recommendations 46 and 47, which is a $5-million dollar allocation for a public --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I'm afraid the time is up, Minister.

LOBBYISTS

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): I have a question for the Minister of Energy. This morning the Premier told reporters that anyone doing

business with the government was required to disclose to the government "anything that even resembles a potential conflict."

Minister, was your government aware that Hugh Mackenzie's company was lobbying on behalf of Direct Energy and National Grid when it was paying the same company

$600,000 to work with the Ministry of Energy on electricity restructuring?

Hon John R. Baird (Minister of Energy, minister responsible for francophone affairs): It was this government that brought in legislation with

respect to the Lobbyists Registration Act. It was this government that brought in practices that require conflict-of-interest rules for all contracts. We did that back in 1997. Those things were

the right things to do.

At no time did Enterprise Canada, with respect to the numbers you've talked about, engage in any public policy work for the government of Ontario. You said, in

a letter released yesterday, "A consultant should not be allowed to lobby the very ministry they are consulting for." I agree.

Mr Duncan: My question wasn't answered. I want to go back to the minister on the question of standards of integrity. There were flaws in the

bill you passed in this House. We felt at the time it didn't go far enough.

Your government paid a company whose president is a good friend and trusted campaign adviser over $3 million. At the same time, the same firm was getting paid

by private interests to lobby you and your government. On several occasions, they were lobbying the same ministries they were advising.

The Premier has asked you and the Minister of Health to investigate the government's dealings with Enterprise Canada. We on this side of the House don't

believe that's good enough. We believe you ought to release the contracts -- all of the contracts. You need to disclose exactly what they were paid $3 million to do. Anything less, Minister, would

not provide this House with an accurate and adequate accounting. Will you, on behalf of your ministry, on behalf of other ministries that are affected, commit today to release all those contracts

to the members of this assembly?

Hon Mr Baird: Of course all government documents are available for public examination. There is a process to do that and we certainly would

respect any part of that process. Enterprise Canada is a vendor of record. They had gone through a public process back in the year 2000 to deal with communications. The type of work they did for my

ministry included a public education strategy with respect to the market opening, with respect to research, with respect to news conferences, with respect to stakeholder management, town hall

logistics, and putting together pamphlets and various advertising programs. All the work they did at our ministry was about public policy decisions that had already been taken. I think the member

opposite should be careful not to besmirch the reputation of good, hard-working people in Ontario.

Mr Duncan: What's at stake here is the reputation of a government. I'd like to know, Minister: yesterday you confirmed, and you just

reconfirmed, that Enterprise Canada was hired specifically to help with, and I quote from you yesterday, "electricity restructuring." That's the very issue Direct Energy and National Grid hired

them to lobby your government on. In our view, it gets worse. According to you again, one of the specific things that company was hired by the Ministry of Energy to do was to organize town hall

meetings. The filing with the lobby registry is also clear. While they were organizing town hall meetings for you, Direct Energy paid them to organize grassroots communications on energy

restructuring with your government. You also confirmed that in addition to setting up these meetings, taxpayers paid Enterprise Canada to research and sell electricity restructuring.

Again, Minister, will you release the contracts? Will you release the rules they were operating under, or are you simply to going to let this thing hang out

there without an adequate opportunity to discuss and see --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I'm afraid the member's time is up.

Hon Mr Baird: In the province of Ontario we have an open process with respect to awarding contracts. We have additional measures that allow

these documents to be made public and will certainly respect all those rules. The Provincial Auditor, a good friend of the taxpayer, brought forward some concerns with respect to the use of

consultants in the province. The Premier immediately said he wanted to adopt that and even directed the Chair of Management Board and the secretary of cabinet on a process that would go even

farther than the Provincial Auditor raised.

PRIVATE HEALTH CARE SERVICES

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): I have a question to the Deputy Premier. This spring we asked the Premier if his decision to introduce

for-profit MRIs had anything to do with ties of his staff to for-profit health care companies. He said, "I don't have any ties to private sector for-profit health care clinics."

We reminded him about a company called Endopisis Medical Inc, and that prior to being hired as his chief of staff, Steve Pengelly was a paid lobbyist for that

company. We have obtained a confidential document outlining the proposal by this same company to provide MRIs and CAT scans across the province. It reveals that the company began meeting with the

Ministry of Health about this matter as early as May, 2001. We know that the Premier's chief of staff was representing the company at this time. Deputy Premier, you must understand how bad this

looks. Will you now cancel this RFP process and put the brakes on for-profit health care?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): I would just remind the member opposite of the fact that it was our government

which actually undertook to introduce, in 1997, some very strong, government-wide conflict-of-interest rules for all contracts. In fact, we were the very first government to do that, and I can tell

you that prior to 1997 the rules were very inconsistent and there was no government standard for each ministry. As you know, these contracts explicitly banned conflicts of interest and every firm

is required to declare their conflict.

Ms Martel: Deputy Premier, I asked you if you would cancel this RFP process because it's not just the conflict of interest that concerns us.

The deadline for the proposals for this process is December 24 at noon. To date, over 500 questions have been submitted about this RFP process; many involve conflict-of-interest guidelines.

Ministry staff have been unable to tell those who have written the questions when they will respond to them.

Secondly, we also know that the College of Physicians and Surgeons is setting the standards for these new MRI and CT clinics. We also know that as late as

yesterday afternoon a college committee was still meeting and making major changes to those standards. The version attached to the RFP is only a draft.

Deputy Premier, you're moving forward with this plan before the necessary standards are even in place. What is motivating your government to rush for-profit

MRI clinics?

Hon Mrs Witmer: All of the contracts were chosen through the government's competitive selection process with regard to the issue of the

bidding process for clinics to run MRIs and CT scanners. The accusation that Enterprise is lobbying this government is completely false. The RFP process prohibits interaction between minister and

ministry staff. As you know, the only communication allowed is questions requiring answering by the potential bidder and these are sent to an RFP coordinator.

We have, as I said before, the highest standards possible in place to ensure that there is a competitive bidding process. The RFP is completely fair, it is

above-board and it is transparent.

Ms Martel: Deputy Premier, the question was: what's motivating you to rush this for-profit MRI process? You see, I think this process is

tainted by the appearance of conflict of interest. It is also tainted by your drive to proceed even though adequate standards are not in place. It is further tainted by the hundreds of questions,

serious questions, that have been raised that remain unanswered. Further, you should know that at the ministry information session that was held two weeks ago behind closed doors Ministry of Health

officials let it slip that the minister has already given approval for two for-profit, mobile MRI units even though radiologists have expressed serious concerns about patient safety when these

carefully calibrated machines are out on the road.

Minister, your government can't guarantee patient safety when you can't even put an RFP together. Put the brakes on this tainted process and put patient care

ahead of profits. Will you do that?

Hon Mrs Witmer: Speaker, I'll refer that to the minister for the --

Hon Tony Clement (Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): The honourable member wants to know what is motivating the government of Ontario.

better health care for the people of Ontario. That's what's motivating this side of the House. We are proud to be on the side of the people of Ontario. Better access to diagnostics: that's what

it's all about. We will continue to fight for the patients of Ontario, because that's what a good government does.

FOREST INDUSTRY

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): We know what motivates this government, and that's helping its friends on Bay Street, not the

patients.

My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. Yesterday my colleague from Sault Ste Marie asked you about the closing of the Domtar mill in Sault Ste

Marie. In response, you told him you are going to let Domtar continue harvesting wood off their licence and send it anywhere they want in Ontario for processing, to the detriment of the community

of Sault Ste Marie.

Let's be clear: when the sustainable forestry development act was passed by this Parliament, under the leadership of Howard Hampton, it was the intent of that

legislation that the licence was tied to the mill and that the mill was there for the benefit of the community. What you are announcing is a clear reversal of that policy.

I'm saying, Minister, that it's clear where you're going with this whole thing. Your intent is on clear-cutting communities across northern Ontario rather than

protecting them and the jobs in those communities. Will you reverse your policy and go back to what we put in place, which was the protection of those communities when it came to those

licences?

Hon Jerry J. Ouellette (Minister of Natural Resources): First of all, I find it interesting that the member from Sault Ste Marie can't even

ask the same question on behalf of his community; he has to have somebody else speak about it.

Not only that, but when you talk about communities such as Temagami and the other mills up in Kenogami, what happened up there? The mayor came down and

specifically asked us to keep those workers working in that community. What the member is asking me to do is shut down all the work in that mill in Sault Ste Marie. We intend to keep as many people

as possible employed in the forest industry in Ontario.

Mr Bisson: First of all, you're full of it. I'm the critic for MNR, and I'm working along with my colleague Tony Martin and any other northern

member across this province who is seeing their community devastated by what you're doing.

The issue here is clear: we have allowed amalgamation and we have allowed companies across northern Ontario such as Domtar and Tembec to group together under

one banner. What they're saying is, "These are our licences; we can do what we want," to the detriment of Kirkland Lake, of Sault Ste Marie and of Sturgeon Falls.

What I'm calling on you to do is something real simple: honour the legislation we put in place in this province, which says the licence is tied to those mills

and those communities. Will you reverse your policy, or will you see every worker in those communities put at risk?

Hon Mr Ouellette: Very clearly, what the member is asking for is to make sure those workers who are in the forest in northern Ontario are not

working. I will make sure that when the mayors come forward, whether it's Kirkland Lake or Sault Ste Marie, if we can keep people employed in the north, we will do so, and the fibre will remain in

the province of Ontario, as much as the Ministry of Natural Resources can accommodate.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): New question, the member for Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke.

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): Any time you want to go head-to-head, let me know.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I would ask all members' co-operation. The member for Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke has the floor.

Interjections.

The Speaker: The Minister of Transportation is out and the member for Sault Ste Marie is out as well. I name both of you. I ask Mr Sterling to

leave, and I ask the member for Sault Ste Marie to leave as well. Carry on outside. If you want to yell at each other, do it all afternoon if you like. Congratulations to all of you. I think we've

now hit 40.

Mr Sterling and Mr Martin were escorted from the chamber.

The Speaker: The member for Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke has the floor.

PROVINCE OF ONTARIO

SAVINGS OFFICE

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke): My question is to the Minister of Finance. In last week's Economic Outlook and Fiscal Review

which you presented to the province, you make plain that in the next couple of months you and your government are going to have to get busy with the sale of assets or rental of government

properties, because, according to your fiscal plan, you're going to require something in the neighbourhood of $2 billion in the sale or rental of government assets and properties to make your

budget numbers add up.

Against that backdrop, I'd like to ask you the following question: can you confirm that your government is now just days away from finalizing the sale of the

Province of Ontario Savings Office, and can you further explain to this Legislature how the sale of the Province of Ontario Savings Office is going to serve the broad public interest in

Ontario?

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Finance): First of all, as the honourable member will know, this spring we laid out a budget plan. We had revenue

forecasts and expenditure forecasts, as is the normal course of things. We provided flexibility for in-year changes, which happen from time to time as governments seek to be responsive to the needs

of their people. That is as it has been for every budget and we are following that plan.

As it comes to referring to POSO, the Province of Ontario Savings Office, as the honourable member should know, we announced over a year ago that the

government would be seeking a financial institution better qualified to run a bank than the government is, and we are following through with that process.

Mr Conway: Well, in communities like Pembroke, Woodstock, Owen Sound, Aylmer, St Marys and many others across the province, many communities

that are not particularly well served by the traditional financial services sector, the very reason that 80 years ago the government of Ontario established the Province of Ontario Savings Office,

in communities like Pembroke and Seaforth and St Marys tens of thousands of Ontarians who have made something like $3 billion available to Her Majesty's provincial government on deposit -- those

depositors, to say nothing of the hard-working men and women who provide such excellent service in this provincial savings office, want to know two things: how is your sale of this valuable public

asset, about to be announced in the next very few days, going to protect and enhance the public interest, and perhaps even more importantly, how is it going to protect and serve the interests of

those very happy Ontarians who for decades, in communities like Pembroke and St Marys and Seaforth, have been well served by the Province of Ontario Savings Office and almost to a person do not

want that savings office closed down in their community or sold off?

Hon Mrs Ecker: I'm sure the honourable member would agree that the appropriate organization to be providing banking services to citizens is

not the government for a small little group of citizens; it should be a regulated financial institution with the knowledge, the qualifications, the financial backup to have expanded services for

folks who need those services in communities. I agree that many of those POSO operations are in smaller communities. That's one of the reasons -- and I'm surprised the honourable member is not

aware of this -- that we have put in the request for bids specific restrictions on staffing, on locations, on trying to maintain or expand service hours for communities, because we think that's an

appropriate thing to do for the residents in those communities.

AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): My question is for the Minister of Agriculture and Food. Minister, you've visited my riding of Durham a number of

times. You know it's a rich, diversified and very successful part of Ontario agriculture. Last week I was surprised when the member for Elgin-Middlesex-London, Mr Peters, issued a news release

regarding our government's commitment to supply management. Minister, could you provide not just me and the farmers in the riding of Durham but indeed all Ontario with a clear explanation of our

government's position on the important future of this issue?

Hon Helen Johns (Minister of Agriculture and Food): I was at the federal-provincial-territorial meeting last week, and when I came back I was

surprised to see that the member from Elgin-Middlesex-London had sent out a press release saying that this government had a qualified and hesitant support of supply management. I want to quote to

you the letter I had sent out:

"I assure you that the Ontario government, including the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture and Food, continues to strongly support supply management. Supply

management has worked well for the dairy, egg, broiler hatching egg, chicken, turkey and flue-cured tobacco industries in the province." Does that sound like qualified support? I've got to say, I

was pretty surprised.

Furthermore, the member is somewhat dismayed that I have said, "It is important that supply-managed commodities continue to evolve in order to respond to the

changing environment in which they operate."

I'd like to refer everyone to the Web site of the Dairy Farmers of Ontario, where they state, "Working with farmers across Canada, DFO is positioned to respond

to new trade rules and the realities of a changing market" -- exactly the same thing. I think the member opposite was making a mountain --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): The member's time is up.

Mr O'Toole: I know agribusiness in my sector is ready to meet change and the challenge of change, and certainly I know you're working closely

with them. I'm almost embarrassed to admit that the member from London-Middlesex should apologize to you.

Minister, you mentioned the importance of systems and programs that work well for Ontario farmers. There is no doubt that our government has compiled an

outstanding record of consulting with farmers on their priority issues and acting, I might say, decisively to address those issues. Can you further describe how our government has relentlessly

addressed some of the important agricultural policy areas, as opposed to the Liberals' reaction to such events as you've described?

Hon Mrs Johns: I would like to thank the member from Durham for his question. I would also like to say that he has worked very hard with his

agricultural community and I am most impressed with the record he has.

I'd like to say that we have conducted a series of public consultations. One that the Liberals would be most interested in is the passage of the Agricultural

Employees Protection Act. We heard from farmers that they needed protection from potentially devastating labour disputes at harvest or planting, and to our surprise, right after the Liberals voted

for this bill, the party president, the member for Vaughan-King-Aurora, suggested that ultimately they would repeal the legislation, a remark made right after they voted. So you have to wonder

about the logic and the consultation that's going on on the other side.

I also have to say that we've been consulting on regulations under the Nutrient Management Act. Our meetings are all across the province in the months of

December and January. So on this side of the House, the members will be working very hard --

The Speaker: The minister's time is up.

WORKPLACE SAFETY

AND INSURANCE APPEALS TRIBUNAL

Mr David Ramsay (Timiskaming-Cochrane): I have a question to the Minister of Labour. I want to talk to you today about your incompetent

management of the injured worker system in Ontario.

As you know, the Workplace Safety and Insurance Appeals Tribunal is the final level of appeal for injured workers and employers in this province. Workers'

lives are in suspension while these cases are being deliberated. Minister, you and your predecessors have made $90,000-a-year appointments that are inappropriate and costly. Case in point: Ken

Dechert, brother of Bob Dechert, friend of Mike Harris, first appointed in June 1997 and reappointed in August 2000. In 2000, assignments decided by each of the other vice-chairs on the tribunal

averaged around 80 cases in that year. The assignments decided by Ken Dechert were zero in that year. That's $90,000 for nothing. There is also a 120-day rule to make decisions after hearing work

is completed. For the 18-month period ending July of this year, his average decision time was 608 days.

Minister, injured workers and employers are waiting for these decisions. Dollars are being wasted and lives are on hold. Stop playing politics with workers'

lives. Why don't you ensure that the appointments to this tribunal are appropriate so that employers, who pay for this, get value and injured workers get timely justice?

Hon Brad Clark (Minister of Labour): First of all, I would like to thank the member for the question. We can state very unequivocally here

that we have improved the WSIB and WSIAT significantly since we took office in 1995. We're down to $5 billion in the unfunded liability. Injuries in the workplace have dropped 30%, which is

significant. We have increased inspections by 25%. We have had significant increases in terms of fines.

As for the approval rating for the WSIB -- staggering: 70% for the employers and 68% for the employees. So when you consider all of that, clearly WSIAT and the

WSIB are doing the job. They're doing more work than ever before and they're getting the job done.

Mr Ramsay: Minister, another example of appointment recklessness was the appointment of John Koutoulakis, a car salesman with no legal or

medical expertise, as a part-time vice-chair by then-minister and good friend Chris Stockwell. Mr Koutoulakis also struggled in his job. Shortly after being appointed Minister of the Environment,

Mr Stockwell rescued his friend and appointed him as a special assistant. But reversing this inappropriate appointment meant that 20 cases Koutoulakis was working on were suspended until the

parties could agree on how to proceed. Again, 20 lives were put on hold and thousands of dollars wasted while reckless political appointments were being made.

Minister, when are you going to clean up this system and ensure that for these important decisions, for important positions such as these, you appoint

qualified and competent people?

Hon Mr Clark: When you consider the record of the government and when you consider the decisions that have been made at WSIAT, the backlogs

have been virtually cleared. If the member wants to point out specific anomalies here or there, the reality is that overall the program is working extremely well. We're appointing people to the

boards who have the experience and the ability to do the job. It's based on merit, not partisan politics.

Laughter.

Hon Mr Clark: They can laugh. I could pull out numerous records from when you guys were in office and made partisan appointments. The list is

extremely long. But on this side, when I took the position I took, I made it abundantly clear that we were going to have unbiased, impartial, unprejudiced members on all our arbitrations, all our

tribunals, to ensure they're doing the right thing based on the facts that are presented to them. That's what we're doing. If they're not doing the job, then they'll be removed from the position.

We want, very clearly, people who understand the job and are doing the job.

RESEARCH STUDY

Mr Cameron Jackson (Burlington): My question is for the Minister of Community, Family and Children's Services. A McMaster University research

team has been granted access to private children's aid society files in search of underaged girls whose background is that of personal abuse. They wish to subject them to a series of stressful

research tests on depression.

These vulnerable crown wards have no parents to protect their privacy rights, and yet three children's aid societies agreed to subject them to a series of

on-going stressful tests without any follow-up treatment should they require it. To be fair, the CAS actually rejected a more invasive protocol involving injections and blood samples that was

approved by the university's research ethics board. Minister, can you advise us when you first learned this research team was reviewing confidential CAS files of abused children in Hamilton and

Halton?

Hon Brenda Elliott (Minister of Community, Family and Children's Services): I want to thank my colleague from Burlington for this question. My

colleague has brought up a very complex issue. I want to be very clear that as a government we take our job very seriously to protect all children in Ontario, but we feel we have a special

obligation particularly to those children who are crown wards through the children's aid. I recently learned of this study. I am informed it's been going on for about two and a half years. In this

case, I'm informed the girls are asked to listen to the beginning of a story and finish it, but it is part of a study to study the effects of stress.

I will say to my colleague that when this was brought to my attention, it did raise some issues of concern for me. I think we would all agree there is no way

we want children to be allowed to be exploited in any way, but we also don't want to deprive children who may have special needs who could benefit from certain kinds of studies. So I say to my

colleague, I've instructed my staff to look into this matter, to give me advice on how we think we should proceed on this, and of course with our first and foremost interest to protect the needs of

our children.

Mr Jackson: Minister, the Child and Family Services Act that governs the children's aid society is there to protect crown wards and their

confidential records. However, it has come to my attention that

part VIII of that bill, the

section dealing with disclosure on confidentiality and access to records, was never proclaimed when it

was gazetted in October 1985. It would appear, therefore, that access to confidential CAS files is being given by children's aid societies without the legal protection of the act.

Minister, I have serious concerns about this issue generally, and specifically about this oversight and the growing practice of recruiting vulnerable people as

research subjects. These people are not mice in a maze. These are our most vulnerable people in Ontario. They are persons with developmental disabilities, the elderly, child victims of abuse and

persons in psychiatric care.

Minister, will you undertake a full review of all and any research projects that are currently occurring in our province that have access to confidential

files, and will you investigate why the sections of this act were never proclaimed?

Hon Mrs Elliott: I thank my colleague again for bringing this matter to my attention and to the attention of the House. The interests of the

children, particularly those who are crown wards in the province of Ontario, are very important to me. I have asked my staff to come forward to give me advice. I will take all the notes that my

colleague offers as additional suggestions into account as we look at this particular topic.

I think it's important that whatever standards we have, they are very clear and very high, with the first and foremost objective to protect the interests of

the children. I invite advice on this matter from any of my colleagues here in the Legislature, and particularly from the member for Burlington. I intend to speak to the Ontario Association of

Children's Aid Societies, as well as consult with the privacy commissioner on this particular topic.

Again, to my colleagues, I seek your advice on this matter. I will be looking into this with the interests of the children at heart, first and foremost.

BORDER CROSSING AT WINDSOR

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): My question is for the Deputy Premier. For decades, the people of Windsor have suffered traffic, noise,

$300 million to look at the problem of cross-border traffic and congestion. However, after some 60 days of study and no public consultation, a secret report has now been developed that no one has

seen, particularly the people of Windsor. They have had absolutely no input to that report.

Madam Deputy Premier, will you give a commitment to sit down with the people of Windsor and find out what they want before you release the results of that

secret report, and actually consult with them on what is best for their community?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): If the member opposite is asking if there will be further consultation, I can

certainly say that our government has always indicated its willingness to work with the city of Windsor and the federal government and make sure that whatever action is taken is responsive to the

needs of that particular community.

Mr Prue: The problem is that there has not been any consultation in the first 60 days of this secret report. What is worse is not only that

there's no consultation, but the recommendations remain secret. What is being hidden here? What are you and the federal Liberals trying to hide? Why is this report still a secret? Why has no one

seen it? When will you go public and involve the people and work with them to find a solution to what has been ongoing in their neighbourhoods that is acceptable to the people of Windsor?

Hon Mrs Witmer: I would just repeat what I said to the member opposite. We have always said we want to work with and make sure we consult with

the federal government and the people of Windsor. I can assure you that as actions are taken, as planning starts to proceed, there will be ample opportunity for further discussion and

consultation.

MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Thunder Bay-Atikokan): My question is for the Minister of Health. The auditor's report that was released last week contains a

damning indictment of your government's lack of concern for people suffering from mental illness. The auditor tells us there has been no increase in base funding to mental health agencies in the

last 10 years. He notes that over the last years there have been cuts in services to those with serious mental illnesses because of this lack of funding. These cuts happened after your government

claimed it was absolutely committed to providing community mental health services. You have been quick to decide to shut down beds in psychiatric hospitals, and you are ready to pass a law making

it easier to force people into treatment. But you have done virtually nothing to make that treatment available. In fact, Minister, in the last two years you underspent the budget for community

mental health by millions of dollars, despite the acute needs that you knew were there.

After starving community mental health services for the seven years of your government, after underspending the community mental health budget last year and

the year before, will you now finally keep your commitment to community mental health and provide more funding in the next budget?

Hon Tony Clement (Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): I would like to thank the honourable member for her question. I hope she shares my

and this government's commitment to better mental health services, particularly community mental health services. The fact of the matter is that when you factor in all the new services that we as a

government have funded since 1995, we have increased spending in the whole area by about 27%; we've invested more than $380 million in new dollars since 1995.

The issue is, of course, that we want to start focusing that money, as she so rightly put it, on community mental health. I'm waiting with as much patience as

I can muster for the mental health implementation task forces. They will be a way to guide us to the best way to make public investments in community mental health because that's what we want to do

as a government and that's what society needs as well.

Mrs McLeod: Facts, not words: no increase in base budgets to community mental health agencies for the past 10 years. It's $14 million

underspent in the current year's budget for community mental health, and $57 million underspent in the year before that for community mental health. The auditor tells us you have no idea what the

needs are. He says your ministry doesn't know how many people are waiting for treatment or how long they are waiting. He says you have no standards for community mental health and you have no idea

what level of services are needed. The Community Mental Health Association estimates that 50% of people with mental illness who need help are not getting it. What we know, fact, is that more and

more people with mental illness are in jail because there is no other place for them to go.

Last weekend, Leslie Ann Trussler died in a fire in London, Ontario. Leslie Ann was the 38-year-old mother of a five-year-old daughter. She had been released

into the community from a Sault Ste Marie hospital on a community treatment order, but the supports that should have been in place weren't there. In Leslie's name, I ask: this time, will you do

more than talk about your commitment to community mental health?

Hon Mr Clement: With the greatest of respect to the honourable member, there are some inaccuracies is what she's saying. The fact of the

matter is we've added $45 million for supportive housing for those with mental illness; $8 million for 30 children's mental health beds in Toronto alone; 56 assertive community treatment teams

delivering community-based mental health services; and $15.8 million announced just last year for the first stage of implementing Brian's Law, a law of which we are particularly proud. I want to

put those on the record so that honourable members know we have been there.

The fact of the matter is, though, that we should wait for the mental health implementation task forces. I think the honourable member would be the first to

criticize us if we acted before we heard from the consultation, if we made decisions before we heard from the mental health community, both mental health survivors as well as those who are active

in the community. That's exactly what we're doing. That should not be seen as a lack of commitment to mental health; in fact, it should be seen as an absolute commitment to better mental health in

our province.

LONG-TERM CARE

Mr Bert Johnson (Perth-Middlesex): My question is for the Associate Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. Of course I'm talking about the

energetic, hard-working, committed Daniel Newman, representing Scarborough Southwest.

Interjections.

Mr Johnson: Every member of the House knows how important it is to meet the long-term care needs of Ontario's growing and aging population,

especially in Windsor. You should listen and hear. This will help you in Windsor as well. This challenge is faced across the province, including my great riding of Perth-Middlesex. According to the

census, Perth-Middlesex has an overabundance of mature citizens. I'm proud to be part of a government that's meeting the challenge and providing even better care for Ontario's seniors.

As of 2002, and as it's coming to a close, I'd like to ask the associate minister if he could provide an update in this House to my constituents on the status

of long-term care in this province.

Hon Dan Newman (Associate Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): I thank the honourable member for his question. It's always my pleasure to

respond to the energetic, hard-working and committed member for Perth-Middlesex.

I am very pleased to say that long-term-care services in Ontario are in excellent shape as the year draws to a close, far better shape than they were in when

we were first elected in 1995.

The Ernie Eves government is taking the necessary steps to provide even better care to Ontario seniors and those others who require long-term care. In fact,

this year we announced $100 million in new money for better nursing and personal care. Our inspections are on target for this year and we've taken action against facilities that don't comply with

our high requirements for residents. Our focus is on providing even better care for residents, and that's exactly what we're doing.

It's coming to the end of 2002, and I'm proud to say that long-term-care services in Ontario are in far better shape than they were in 1995.

Mr Johnson: I'd like to thank the minister for that response. I'm pleased to hear that our government's commitment to long-term care is making

a difference in the lives of my constituents and the lives of residents in facilities across Ontario, including my riding of Perth-Middlesex, which, as I said, has a great need for care and

long-term services. I'll be sitting on the step of the associate minister to get those services. Indeed, if I were closer to him in this House, I'd probably be at his side every day.

I know that our government's historic $1.2-billion investment toward even better long-term-care services in Ontario is making a real difference for even better

care across the province. I'd like to ask the associate minister if he could please update my constituents and this House on this unprecedented long-term-care initiative.

Hon Mr Newman: I once again thank the honourable member for Perth-Middlesex for his question. I'm very pleased to say that our government is

keeping our promise of adding 20,000 new beds and 16,000 redeveloped beds to the long-term-care system though the $1.2-billion investment that we announced in 1998. This includes 256 redeveloped

beds in the honourable member's own riding. The fact is that it was our government that fixed the problems that the Liberals and NDP created when it comes to long-term care in Ontario.

Before our 1998 announcement to add tens of thousands of new and redeveloped beds to the system, no new long-term-care beds had been added since 1988. That's

an unbelievable fact. Both the Liberals and the NDP knew that the need for better long-term-care services in our province was inevitable, but they chose not to take action and they put it off until

another day. But our government took action and that's why long-term care is far better off today than it was in 1995, when we were first elected by the people of Ontario.

FETAL ALCOHOL SYNDROME

Mr Ernie Parsons (Prince Edward-Hastings): My question is to the Minister of Community, Family and Children's Services. As I'm sure you know,

fetal alcohol syndrome is the only preventable form of mental retardation. It is caused by a birth mother consuming alcohol during pregnancy. I think it's fair to say that there aren't individuals

with FAS; there are families with FAS. FAS greatly reduces an individual's ability to make decisions or to understand consequences for actions. They require a very high degree of supervision and

support.

Over 40% of individuals in our jails and in prisons have FAS. Others end up just out on the street. It's ironic that we have no money for shelters for them but

we always have $80,000 to lock them up in a jail or prison. They don't deserve to be locked up; they deserve better than that.

Families need more than the special services at home funding which you provide. They need the ability to do long-term planning for their children. Minister, I

would ask that you not answer my question in terms of dollars but in terms of services. What are you doing for families with fetal alcohol syndrome in Ontario?

Hon Brenda Elliott (Minister of Community, Family and Children's Services): I thank my colleague opposite for the question. I think he comes

to this House with a very heartfelt concern about funding services for children, which we share on this side of the House. This is a particular form of illness that he asked me for specifics on. We

have a number of programs. You've mentioned the special services at home. I would like to have the opportunity to go back and think about the very specific things and give you a much more detailed

response on this particular topic.

Mr Parsons: I appreciate that answer. My wife and I have a son with fetal alcohol syndrome. He has made our life more interesting than we ever

planned it to be, but we are very proud of him. Not a day goes by that we do not worry about what will happen to him when we're gone. The thought of him being abandoned on the streets is

intolerable to us and to thousands of other parents. Studies done indicate that for FAS victims, residence in a specialized group home with special supports enables many, if not all, of them to

contribute positively to society.

There is a group in Ontario that has come together provincially to look at long-term solutions for victims of FAS. They are based in Belleville. Minister, they

would very much like to meet with you to explore the options. So the question is simple: will you personally meet with this FAS group to explore options that can be developed for victims of

FAS?

Hon Mrs Elliott: I thank my colleague across the way. We come to this place very often as parents, and when he says as a good parent that this

child makes his life interesting, that's probably a sign of a very good parent who is trying to do his best.

In my own community of Guelph-Wellington I know the organization FASAT, which has been working to help parents and children who struggle with fetal alcohol

syndrome. Certainly in my discussions with ministers across the country as Community, Family and Children's Services minister, fetal alcohol syndrome is a serious problem, particularly in the

western part of Canada.

I would be more than happy to meet with the colleagues that you would like me to speak with. I'll be pleased to do that at my earliest convenience.

BEREAVEMENT SERVICES

Mr Raminder Gill (Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale): My question is for the hard-working Minister of Consumer and Business Services.

Minister, anyone who has lost a loved one knows how difficult the grieving period can be. Add to this the difficulty of arranging a funeral, and a distressing

situation can be made even worse. I know that the vast majority of businesses in this industry are good operators, but there are a few bad operators that aren't completely up front with families

and loved ones when they require their services.

Today, Minister, your bereavement legislation passed third reading and is just steps away from becoming the law. Minister, could you please let the people from

my great riding of Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale and of Ontario know how this new legislation will improve consumer protection in this industry?

Hon Tim Hudak (Minister of Consumer and Business Services): I appreciate the question from my colleague. He's absolutely right and I'm very

pleased that Bills 209 and 180 passed third reading in the Legislature today, part of a package of probably the greatest advancement in consumer protection in the history of this province. As part

of this powerful package on behalf of people at a very sensitive time with respect to bereavement services, I'll name five of the consumer protections: full ownership disclosure so you know who

you're dealing with; an ability to attack tied selling, a reprehensible practice that limits consumer options; clear price lists that are constant so that you know what you are buying, whether it's

a budget or a higher-priced item; an industry-funded compensation fund to protect consumers; and also a code of ethics that goes throughout the bereavement industry, to name but five.

Mr Gill: Thank you, Minister, and keep up the hard work.

It's great to hear that this new legislation will bring in so many comprehensive new protections for individuals going through this difficult time. Clear price

lists, cracking down on tied selling and mandatory informational pamphlets will give people the tools to easily make informed decisions.

Having said that, I've heard some criticism during debate that this bill will pose problems for small businesses. Specifically, concerns have been raised that

allowing combinations such as cemeteries having funeral homes will push the little guy out of business. But we are the government of small businesses and I know that we wouldn't press forward with

any plan that could compromise small businesses in the province.

Minister, how would this legislation affect small businesses?

Hon Mr Hudak: The member is right. We, the Ernie Eves government, are proud to be the government of small businesses to help job growth in

that sector. I can say with certainty that while that kind of accusation could be part of the political rhetoric, it is groundless. In fact, currently all other provinces but Ontario and PEI have

this type of legislation, and 42 of 50 US states. The small family-run funeral service industry is still very alive and well in those provinces and in the states.

Similarly, it levels the playing field. If a small, family-owned funeral parlour is facing competition from a municipal or a faith-based cemetery and

visitation centre that is tax-free currently, this will level the playing field so that taxes are paid equally.

To quote a couple of small funeral operators, one Laurie Cole of Cole Funeral Services in Carp, Ontario, says, "As you know, the industry has been seeking

changes to existing legislation for some time now and, speaking for my own company, supports your efforts entirely." Brent Irvine, of Irvine Funeral Home and Chapel in Brockville, Ontario, says,

"This new legislation will pave the way for expanded opportunities for firms such as ours to more effectively serve Ontario consumers."

ASSISTED HOUSING

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton West): My question is for the Minister of Community, Family and Children's Services.

Minister, yesterday my colleague from Hamilton East asked you a question about subsidized housing for the disabled and mentally ill in Hamilton. We got less

than a satisfactory answer.

Lest there be a concern that you think that was a partisan matter, I'm asking the question today also and I want to read something to you by way of this

question.

"Hamilton, now $300,000 over budget in its subsidy program, has had to not only slam on the brakes, but throw it into reverse. Next month, the maximum number

of subsidized beds will drop to 869 from 915.

"That's shameful -- but the fault is not Hamilton's. Responsibility for a program such as this cannot be thrown onto cities. Smaller municipalities don't offer

subsidized housing for mentally ill people. Hamilton, like other large centres, does -- not because of a provincial mandate but because it has taken on the role of a centre for mental health

services."

Minister, these beds are being cut because you've capped the subsidies. We need you to provide the subsidies so our community can provide these beds, these

facilities for people who stand a risk of freezing to death in the dark. Minister, stand --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): The member's time is up.

Hon Brenda Elliott (Minister of Community, Family and Children's Services): I thank my colleague across the way for the question.

Yesterday I answered a question from another colleague from the geographic area of Hamilton. It was unclear to me what he was searching for, and I was

answering him with regard to the per diems that we have increased for domiciliary hostels over the last little while.

The question is about homes in the Hamilton area. Hamilton has asked the province for one-time increased funding of $240,000 for the domiciliary hostel

program. It's my understanding that the city of Hamilton has actually decided to go forward and offer more homes than we had originally planned. I can say to my colleagues across the way that we

are looking into this, and certainly we'll be interested in talking to them.

But if my colleague the Minister of Health were answering this question, he would also tell you that we are very interested in finding out the information that

will come from the task force on mental health. We believe there's very good --

The Speaker: The minister's time is up.

Mr Christopherson: Minister, the quote I was reading to you didn't come from a Liberal document or an NDP document; that was today's

Spectator, a Hamilton editorial.

The fact of the matter is, we're having some trouble getting you to focus on the issue at hand. This is about providing beds for people who have nowhere else

to go -- nowhere. The city of Hamilton has been doing your job. We've been picking up the extra. That's the $240,000 you refer to. Because of the other downloading you've done, the city can't

continue to do that. But our Hamilton city council doesn't want to say no to people who are on the streets, and I'm assuming you don't either. Therefore we desperately need a commitment from you

now that you'll provide the money necessary so that those beds will be there for people when the temperature drops below freezing and lives are at risk. Minister, on behalf of all Hamiltonians, I'm

asking you: make the commitment today so that our council and this government can do the right thing for those people in Hamilton who are in need.

Hon Mrs Elliott: I thank my colleague across the way. In my ministry, the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing and the Ministry of

Health, we have a number of programs all designed to address the issues of housing of various kinds throughout the province. I have committed to you today that I will work further on this to find

some solutions. I have indicated that we on this side of the House would like to receive the report from the task force on mental health so that we can make a broader decision on the next steps for

future planning.

VISITOR

Mr Cameron Jackson (Burlington): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'd like to welcome this afternoon, in the members' east gallery, the former

member for Wentworth North and a graduate of Nelson High School in Burlington, along with myself, Eric Cunningham.

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I seek unanimous consent for second and third reading of the bill I

introduced today to amend the Food Safety and Quality Act.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): Mr Peters has asked -- I heard a no.

PETITIONS

HIGHWAY 407

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I have a petition that reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas motorists using Highway 407 are being gouged with charges that are far beyond what is reasonable and justified;

"Whereas billing errors are forcing motorists to spend hours on the telephone trying to have such errors corrected;

"Whereas some motorists in frustration and exasperation are paying charges they did not incur for the use of Highway 407;

"Whereas the government of Ontario acts as an enforcer for the Highway 407 Corp and is, in our view, complicit in the collection of questionable charges;

"Whereas the Eves-Harris government sold Highway 407 to a buyer who has increased charges well beyond what the government promised;

"We, the undersigned, call upon the Legislative Assembly to condemn the Conservative government of Ontario for selling Highway 407 to private interests and for

permitting the Highway 407 Corp to raise charges for the use of the highway and other administrative charges that cannot be justified."

I affix my signature. I'm in complete agreement with this petition.

CHILD CARE

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): I have petitions that come to me from McMurrich Sprouts child care centre in Toronto and Jubilee Heritage

Family Resources in Sudbury. They read as follows:

"Whereas 70% of Ontario women with children under age 12 are in the paid workforce;

"Whereas high-quality, safe, affordable child care is critical to them and their families;

"Whereas the Early Years Study done for the Conservative government by Dr Fraser Mustard and the Honourable Margaret McCain concluded quality child care

enhances early childhood development;

"Whereas this government has cut funding for regulated child care instead of supporting Ontario families by investing in early learning and care;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that the Ontario government adopt the NDP's $10-a-day child care plan and begin implementation by reducing full child care fees to

$10 a day for children aged two to five currently enrolled in regulated child care by providing capital funds to expand existing child care centres and build new ones, by funding proxy pay equity

for staff and by creating new $10-a-day child care spaces in the province."

I agree with the petitioners. I have affixed my signature to this.

CAT SCANNER

Mr Ernie Hardeman (Oxford): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario and the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care.

"We, the undersigned, request approval for installation of a CAT scanner at the Woodstock General Hospital. It is an essential piece of equipment for the

practice of modern medicine. The arrangements to go to London for a CAT scan are unsatisfactory, cumbersome and cause unnecessary delay. It is standard equipment for a hospital of this size in

North America. All counties in southwestern Ontario have at least one CAT scanner except Oxford county."

The petition is signed by many of the residents in and around the city of Woodstock, and I add my signature to the petition as I support it.

NATURAL GAS RATES

Mr Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Ontario Energy Board has consented to allow Union Gas to retroactively charge $40 per month for a three-month period to recover additional system

operation costs that occurred during the winter of 2000-01 totaling approximately $150 million; and

"Whereas Union Gas will recover accrued costs over the peak heating season, causing undue hardship; and

"Whereas this retroactive charge will affect all customers who receive Union Gas, including new homeowners and new customers to Union Gas;

"Therefore we demand that the Ernie Eves government issue a policy directive under

section 27.1 of the Ontario Energy Board Act" -- which they can do --

"disallowing the retroactive rate hike granted to Union Gas, and we further demand that the Legislature examine the Ontario Energy Board, its processes and its resources, and make changes that will

protect consumers from further retroactive rate increases."

This comes to me from Mrs Christina Korotki in Thunder Bay. I'm grateful to her and I will be very happy to sign my name to the petition as well.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton West): Recently my colleague Marie Bountrogianni from Hamilton Mountain and I attended a news conference

sponsored by the Community Coalition for Public Education, a newly formed group co-chaired by Jessica Brennan and Jeff Moore. They gave us 1,200 --

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): What we need is for you just to read the petition and not editorialize. Thank you.

Mr Christopherson: "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the parents of Hamilton understand that adequate funding for our children's education is the responsibility of the government of the province of

Ontario; and

"Whereas we don't believe that the current funding benchmarks are reflective of current costs; and

"Whereas we want the education funding gap addressed immediately;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"We oppose the serious underfunding of our children's education and demand that the government of Ontario reinstate adequate funding to the Hamilton-Wentworth

District School Board so that our children receive the quality education they deserve."

I have 1,200 postcards to back that up, and add my name.

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

Mrs Julia Munro (York North): My petition is to the Legislature of Ontario:

"Whereas animal abusers are not currently subject to any provincial penalties;

"Whereas it is currently impossible for a judge to ban puppy and kitten mill operators from owning animals for the rest of their lives;

"Whereas Ontario SPCA investigators need to act on instances of cruelty to animals in a more timely fashion, thereby lessening the animals' suffering;

"Whereas it is currently not an offence to train an animal to fight another animal; and

"Whereas Ontario's animals are not adequately protected by the current law;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"To pass the amendments to the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act developed by a governmental working group (which included the

Ontario SPCA) and submitted to the office of the Solicitor General of Ontario in June of 2001, so that the above conditions, among others, will be properly addressed."

This represents over 200,000 people in the province of Ontario who support this petition.

ALUMINUM SMELTER

Mr Mike Colle (Eglinton-Lawrence): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Regarding the cleanup of the abandoned smelter site in Georgina:

"Whereas the abandoned aluminum smelter located on Warden Avenue in the town of Georgina has been deemed to have heavy metals exceeding Ministry of the

Environment guidelines; and

"Whereas the site is adjacent to a wetland that leads to the Maskinonge River feeding into Lake Simcoe;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to direct the Ministry of the Environment" to do its job and "conduct a full environmental

assessment of this site, followed by a cleanup of" this toxic smelter site in Georgina.

I affix my name to this petition, which I support.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): I have a petition signed by 288 people that reads as follows:

"To the Legislature of Ontario:

"Whereas the city of Toronto, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities and other organizations across the nation have recognized that homelessness is a

national disaster and called on the federal government to develop and implement a national housing strategy; and

"Whereas communities across Canada are in the midst of an affordable housing crisis and it is important for all levels of government, organizations and

communities to work together to provide adequate and affordable housing that will make a real difference in the lives of many men, women and children who require shelter; and

"Whereas thousands of people in Ontario are without housing, the Ontario government needs to match the level of participation of the federal government with

regards to the national housing program. Housing is a human right and a basic need;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario as follows:

"Commit in full to the agreed-upon action to conclude an affordable housing deal which was set out by the federal government. Ontario needs permanent,

affordable housing. Emergency shelters are not permanent solutions."

I am in agreement and will affix my signature thereto.

PENSION PLANS

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): I'm pleased to present a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the citizens of Ontario are concerned over the implications of

part XXV of Bill 198 as it affects pensioners and employees contributing to a pension

plan; and

"Whereas we would like to bring this issue to the attention of John O'Toole, our member of provincial Parliament for Durham, and the Legislative Assembly of

Ontario;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned, respectfully petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Minister of Finance comprehensively review all sections of Bill 198 dealing with amendments to the Pension Benefits Act to ensure all current and

former pension plan members are in no way disadvantaged. And we request that our Durham MPP, Mr John O'Toole, and all members of the Legislature not support any legislation that would reduce

pension plan benefits."

I am pleased to inform the House that

part XXV has indeed been removed from that

section of the bill, and I support and work with my constituents as

always.

POST-SECONDARY

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Thunder Bay-Atikokan): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas average tuition fees in Ontario are the second-highest in Canada; and

"Whereas average undergraduate tuition fees in Ontario have more than doubled in the past 10 years; and

"Whereas tuition fees for deregulated programs have, in certain cases, doubled and tripled; and

"Whereas Statistics Canada has documented a link between increasing tuition fees and diminishing access to post-secondary education; and

"Whereas four other provincial governments have taken a leadership role by freezing and reducing tuition fees;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to:

"Freeze tuition fees for all programs at their current levels, and

"Take steps to reduce the tuition fees of all graduate programs, post-diploma programs and professional programs for which tuition fees have been deregulated

since 1998."

This is signed by hundreds more students from Lakehead University. I'm pleased to affix my signature, in full agreement with their concerns, and to give it to

Michael Schonberger from Sudbury to take to the table.

MEDICAL REVIEW COMMITTEE

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the OHIP

schedule of benefits is often unclear about its

definitions of good medical practice for many serious medical conditions: general checkups,

rechecks, psychotherapy counselling and often major illness care by specialists;

"The medical review committee of the College of Physicians and Surgeons has been aggressively `clawing back' payments to hard-working, conscientious doctors on

the basis of these flawed

definitions and skewed statistical analyses;

"We, the undersigned, request the Minister of Health to suspend further reviews by the medical review committee, return the monies with its penalties, pending

a negotiated agreement of an unambiguous

schedule of benefits with representatives of affected practising physicians."

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

Mr Ernie Hardeman (Oxford): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas animal abusers are not currently subject to any provincial penalties;

"Whereas it is currently impossible for a judge to ban puppy and kitten mill operators from owning animals for the rest of their lives; and

"Whereas Ontario SPCA investigators need to act on instances of cruelty to animals in a more timely fashion, thereby lessening the animals' suffering;

"Whereas it is currently not an offence to train an animal to fight another animal; and

"Whereas Ontario's animals are not adequately protected by the current law;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"To pass the amendments to the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act developed by a governmental working group (which included the

Ontario SPCA) and submitted to the office of the Solicitor General of Ontario in June 2001, so that the above conditions, among others, will be properly addressed."

It is signed by a great number of citizens of Ontario who have great concern for the welfare of the animals in our province.

HAZARDOUS WASTE

Ms Caroline Di Cocco (Sarnia-Lambton): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas CleanHarbors, the former Safety-Kleen, is trucking in highly toxic sludge from Sydney, Nova Scotia, to Ontario;

"Whereas the CleanHarbors, formerly Safety-Kleen, hazardous landfill and incinerator is the only facility on the North American continent that has a permit to

landfill untreated hazardous waste;

"Whereas Ontario has become the dumping ground and haven for toxic hazardous waste;

"Whereas it is not in the best interest of the people of Ontario to import hazardous waste;

"Whereas this CleanHarbors site near Bridgen will have long-term consequences to the environment, to human health and eventually contaminate the

groundwater;

"We, the undersigned, petition the government of Ontario to stop the landfilling and disposing of untreated hazardous waste in Ontario and stop the shipment to

Ontario from the Domtar tank in Sydney, Nova Scotia."

There are thousands of signatures, and I affix my signature to this petition. I'm going to ask Brian from Sarnia-Lambton to bring down the petitions.

EDUCATION TAX CREDIT

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): I'm pleased to present a second petition today on behalf of my constituents in Durham.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the province of Ontario has delayed the second phase of the equity in education tax credit for parents who choose to send their children to

independent schools; and

"Whereas prior to the introduction of this tax credit, Ontario parents whose children attended independent schools faced a financial burden of paying taxes at

home to an education system they did not use, plus tuition for the school of their choice; and

"Whereas the equity in education tax credit supports parental choice in education and makes independent schools more accessible to all Ontario families;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, respectfully request that the government of Ontario reintroduce the second phase of the tax credit forthwith and continue --

without delay -- the previously announced timetable for the introduction of the tax credit over five years."

In response to my constituents, I'm pleased to endorse this petition on their behalf.

NOTICES OF DISSATISFACTION

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): I would like to inform the House that pursuant to standing order 37(a), the member for

Elgin-Middlesex-London has given notice of his dissatisfaction with the answer to his question given by the Associate Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing concerning the Edible Oils Act.

Also pursuant to standing order 37(a), the member for Kingston and the Islands has given notice of his dissatisfaction with the answer to his question given by

the Minister of Public Safety and Security concerning the Provincial Auditor's report.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

Hon Doug Galt (Minister without Portfolio): I move that, pursuant to standing order 46 and notwithstanding any other standing order or special

order of the House relating to Bill 216,

An Act respecting access to information, the review of expenses and the accountability of cabinet ministers, opposition leaders and certain other persons,

when Bill 216 is next called as a government order, the Speaker shall put every question necessary to dispose of the second reading stage of the bill without further debate or amendment; at such

time the bill shall be ordered for third reading, which order may be called on that same day; and

That, when the order for third reading is called, the Speaker shall put every question necessary to dispose of this stage of the bill without further debate or

amendment; and

That no deferral of the second and third reading votes pursuant to standing order 28(

h) shall be permitted; and

That, in the case of any division relating to any proceedings on the bill, the division bell shall be limited to five minutes.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): Mr Galt has moved government notice of motion number 84. Debate?

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): I stand in my place again to debate another time allocation motion by this government, a motion that limits,

stifles, ends debate and ends the involvement of the people of the province of Ontario in having a say in legislation. Therefore, I, my leader Dalton McGuinty and the rest of my Liberal colleagues

will not be supporting this time allocation motion.

Let me talk a little bit and let me bring the people of Ontario up to date on what this government has done during the fall session and how they've limited the

people of Ontario's input into good legislation or into bad legislation. Bill 60, the Victim Empowerment Act: time-allocated, no third reading debate. Bill 131, Interjurisdictional Support Orders

Act: time-allocated, no third reading debate. Bill 148, Emergency Readiness Act: time-allocated, no third reading debate. Bill 149, Red Light Cameras Pilot Projects Extension Act: time-allocated,

no third reading debate. Bill 179, Government Efficiency Act: time-allocated, no third reading debate. Bill 181, Legal Aid Services Amendment Act: time-allocated, no third reading debate. Bill 187,

Agricultural Employees Protection Act: time-allocated, no third reading debate. Bill 191, Highway Traffic Amendment Act: time-allocated, no third reading debate. Bill 151, Toronto Waterfront

Revitalization Corporation Act: time-allocated, no third reading debate allowed. Bill 175, Sustainable Water and Sewer Systems Act: time-allocated, no third reading debate. Bill 180, Consumer

Protection Statute Law Amendment Act: time-allocated, no third reading debate. Bill 195, Safe Drinking Water Act: time-allocated, no third reading debate. Bill 198, Keeping the Promise for a Strong

Economy Act: time-allocated, no third reading debate. Bill 209, Funeral, Burial and Cremation Services Act: time-allocated, no committee hearings allowed or third reading debate. Bill 210,

Electricity Pricing, Conservation and Supply Act: time-allocated, no committee hearings, no third reading debate.

Today we debate another time allocation motion. I don't think this government should be proud of how they've managed the legislation they've introduced. I

think it is fundamentally wrong and fundamentally undemocratic to have so limited a debate on significant pieces of legislation. I think it is an insult to the people of Ontario and even to the

people who voted for the Harris-Eves government that they do not take bills out to committees so that the people of Ontario can have a say in their legislation.

It is no wonder that the people of Ontario are severely questioning the competency and the sincerity of the Harris-Eves government as it demonstrates time and

time again that they feel it is not important for the people of Ontario to have a say in their legislation. It is important for the government across the way to understand that it is not your

legislation; it is the legislation of the people of Ontario as represented by the 103 members here, but more broadly by the people who live all across Ontario.

So I say to the government as this session winds down, you have made a fundamental mistake in thinking that the people of Ontario are not interested in their

legislation. They want to feel that they are a part of legislation and the laws of the province of Ontario. You have denied them that opportunity. You have denied them that right. I am confident

that when the election is held in April, they will deny you a return mandate.

Mrs Julia Munro (York North): Normally I would stand in this House and suggest how pleased I am to be able to rise to debate this motion,

because ordinarily it would be a pleasure for me to do so. However, I have to say I am some