VOL. 3 NO. 94 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, JUNE 19, 1978

• • • June 19, 1978, Tape 4539, Page 1 apb The House met at 2:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Order, please! The hon. member. Mr. Speaker - oh, go ahead. 10 I presume it is Dr. Collingwood you are going to - MR. H. COLLINS: Yes. MR. NEARY: Right. Okay. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, all of us in the Department of Health, and I am sure all members of this hon. House were deeply saddened to learn yesterday of the death of Dr. Bill Collingwood of St. John's. Dr.

Collingwood retired, as all hon. members recall, in February of last year after a career of spending nearly forty yeais in the public service. As we all know, prior to practicing in Newfoundland he served in the Royal Navy where he attained the rank of Surgeon Lieutenant-Commander. Dr. Collingwood was an outstanding person, an institution,almost, in terms of health care in Newfoundland, a man who was involved in the pioneering of the rural medical practices. • I would like, on behalf of the hon. House, to extend all of our deep affection and sympathy to his wife and family. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my , colleagues 'on this side of the House, Sir, we second the motion'that a letter of sympathy and condolence be forwarded to the family of the late Dr. Collingwood who passed away yesterday, Sir. The late Dr. Collingwood, as members know, was an outstanding public servant who served • the people of Newfoundland well down through the years, Sir, and at times under the most difficult circumstances.

• • • June 19, 1978, Tape 4539, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: The late Dr. Collingwood served as a medical doctor in various communities throughout Newfoundland, including Placentia. He was born in St. John's and received his early education at the Prince of Wales College and at Memorial University. Following that he went on to obtain a degree in medicine from the University of Edinburgh. After graduation he served on the staff of Edinburgh Royal Infirmary and the Leicester Royal Infirmary. As my hon. colleague pointed out, in 1940, I think it was, Dr.

Collingwood joined the Royal Navy as surgeon Lieutenant - Commander and after his discharge in 1945 he joined the medical staff of the Department of Health where he served for sixteen years in rural medical practice. He served one as medical officer in charge of the Bloomfield Cottage Hospital following which he moved to Placentia where he served for fifteen years. In 1960,Dr. Collingwood accepted the position of medical consultant to the Health Insurance Division of the Department of Health in St.

John's and later he was appointed Director of the Cottage Hospital Medical Services, a position he held until his retirement back in 1977. I think it was in February,1977 the late Dr. Collingood retired. So he was indeed, Sir, an outstanding public servant. He served Newfoundland well and it is only right and proper that this House should extend a letter of sympathy to the family. I think the late Dr. Collingwood is survived by a wife and one son I believe - is it? MR. HICKMAN: Two sons, one of whom is a doctor. MR. NEARY: Two sons, one of whom is a doctor. So we on this side of the House, Sir, would second •

June 19, 1978, Tape 4539, Page 3 -- apb MR. WEARY: the motion. While I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if it would be in order, Sir, to, as this is Senior Citizens' Week, say a brief word in congratulations to all those who have organized Senior Citizens' Week. This week some 45,000 to 50,000 Newfoundlanders sixty-five years and older are observing, I believe it is the first Senior Citizens' Week in the Province. It began yesterday on the 18th. and will continue on until Saturday, June 24th.

I understand, Sir, from the orgainzers or Senior Citizens' Week, that they have organized one of the most extensive programmes that has ever been thought of in this Province to draw attention to senior citizens and Senior Citizens' Week. It started off a few moments ago - hon. members might have heard the mototcade go by Confederation Buidling here, with the balloons on the cars and the slogans and so forth in this motorcade that just went past Confederation Buidling. Mr. Speaker, I believe that at the moment there are some 230 senior citizenz' clubs in this Province.

It is a movement that is growing very rapidly due, I guess, in large measure to the New Horizons programme that was undertaken

• • • • June 19, 1978 Tape No. 4540 NM - 1 MR. WEARY: a few years ago by the Government of Canada. I was out on the West Coast over the weekend, Sir, and I heard some complaints • on the radio that the media on the East Coast were giving tremendous play to Senior Citizens' Week but in the Western part of the Province they were finding it very difficult to get their message across.

So I hope as a result today, I hope somebody on the government side will also speak on this matter, that the media right across this whole Province will recognize, Sir, that this is a very, very important week for the senior citizens of this Province. And I .hope, Sir, that they have good weather. I hope that they will enjoy themselves during the week and that their first real senior citizens week in this ProVince will be a huge success. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The honk Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, we on this side of the House would obviously like to associate ourselves with the remarks by my hon. friend, the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) insofar as the Senior Citizens' Week is concerned. My department is involved in this particular effort, not to the greatest degree and not a degree that we would like. However, some months ago we wrote all the mayors of the municipalities throughout the Province reminding them of Senior Citizens' Week and asking them to organize functions to honour the elderly of the Province.

Certainly I am sure that the people involved will appreciate the fact that we give recognition to it in the people's House and so we should, all of us, I for my own part will be visiting a number of areas during the week and participating in the various events. I hope that all hon. members, if they find themselves in areas where there are events taking place, do go and show up and do their bit to share with the elderly of this Province.

June 19, 1978 Tape No. 4540 NM - 2 PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon..member for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of 210 residents of the community of Ming's Bight in my district. The petition is addressed to the HoUse of Asitembly and I will read the prayer but I think it is pretty straight- forward and to the point. It says, "To the House of Assembly, Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. Petition:

Whereas Mr. Joseph Rousseau, Minister of Highways.previously, and Mr. James Morgan, Minister of Highways previously, wrote the Council of Ming's Bight stating that upgrading of the road to Ming's Bight began when the LaScie Highway was paved,and

whereas the LaScie Highway.:has been completed for two years, and

whereas the road to Ming's Bight is dangerously narrow in places, high embankments exists without railing, ditching non-existent causing flooding, large boulders preventing proper grading, we,the undersigned of this community of Ming's Bight hereby petition the governMent to start upgrading of this road to and around the community." Now, Mr. Speaker, in supporting the prayer of the petition, let me say that there is only,I believe approximately five miles of road involved from the main highway to LaScie Highway, out to the community of Ming's Bight, a community of 400 or 500 people.

I have seen with my own eyes a letter that was written by the former Minister of Transportation, the hon. member for Bonavista South, to the community council at Ming's Bight in 1976, explicitly and without mincing words telling them that they could expect that Summer, the letter was written in June of '76, telling them that Summer that there would be very specific improvements carried out on the road out to their community.

Paving was not promised but they were told that substantial upgrading would be done, that the road would be widened as it needs to be in a number of places along the five mile stretch going out to

June 19, 1978 Tape no. 4540 NM - 3 MR. RIDEOUT: the community. They were told that a number of the worst hills, a number of the worst grades would be cut down in efforts to make the road more safe and they were told that they could expect crushed stone to be placed on the surface of-the road to make it a little bit better to drive on. Mr. Speaker, that was two years ago and none of these written promised improvements_ have been carried out to this date. The Community Council of Ming's Bight has that letter.

I have a copy of it and while we have made representation again last Summer and again this previous Winter we do not know whether or not that two year old commitment is about to be lived up to yet or not.

June 19, 1978 Tape 4541 Pk - 1 • • Mr. Rideout: Mr. Speaker, the petition, I believe, is a reasonable one.the community of Ming's Bight from the community of Ming's Bight you will find that 75 per cent or 80 per cent of the men, the working population of the community,are working in and around Baie Verte so there is daily traffic every day from that community to and from the workplace in the mines at Baie Verte or in the servicing industry in and around the town of Baie Verte. Also, of course, the high school students must traverse that road twice daily to the community of Baie Verte for educational purposes.

So I would hope that the present Minister of Transportation and Communications would dig out his files showing the correspondence previously between his department or between the minister of that department and the Community Council of Ming's Bight. He will find a letter there written in June of 1976 expressly stating what work was to be done on that road that Summer. And I would hope that even though the commitment is a couple of years old,that the very reasonable request made in this petition will be taken care of and will be attended to this Summer. It is sort of sad, Mr.

Speaker, that after two years of waiting and two years of promises that the people have to go to the trouble of circulating a petition and sending it to the House in the hope that some action will be forthcoming on a promise that was. made to a reasonable request made a couple of years ago. I do hope that the minister will ensure that something is done, the road is in desperate need of reconstruction.

We know it cannot all be done at one time, but we would hope that some work will be done, some improvements will be made so that those people will know that the government of this Province has their best interest at heart, and while not being able to do everything at once are doing all they can to improve the situation, and to improve the road that they have to drive over. Mr. Speaker, I whole-heartedly support the prayer of this petition. I table it, and I would like for it to be referred to the department to which it relates. • •

June 19, 1978 ,Tape 4541 PK - 2 'MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I take great pleasure in supporting • • • this petition.once more so ably presented by my friend and colleague, the member for Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr. Rideout).

I take pleasure especially, Sir, because it comes from the community of Ming's Bight, a delightful, lovely community of hard working, persevering men and women which used to be in the district formally known as White Bay South which I had the honour and privilege of representing for eight continuous years in this House of Assembly, in the government and on the Opposition side. Ming's Bight, Mr. Speaker, is a community which is not far away from the Rambler Mine operations.

And if ever there was any justice, Sir, to the claim that people who are nearby or in close proximity to natural resources should get the greatest priority of benefit from those natural resources, and, Sir, that should apply to Ming's Bight. I suppose my hon. friend can correct me, I do not know now what the proportion would be since there has been some decline in that operation, but I suppose just about every able-bodied man in the place had a job in the mines at some point or other, probably still do at this moment in time. MR. RIDEOUT: Between the two mines. MR. W.

ROWE: Between the two mines, of course, Advocate and Rambler, but I am thinking more of Rambler now because Rambler is right there, Asa matter of fact,one part of the mine is right on this road of which we are now speakinn Ind concerning which a petition has been sent to the House from 210 residents of Ming's Bight. It is shameful in a way, Mr. Speaker, that a community which had the fortunate of being in such close proximity to this natural resource, as in so many other cases particularly in the Labrador part of our Province,did not benefit more from that(resource.

The very least that could have been done over the last number of years would be to have a half decent road from the community to the mining operation. I think that the mine itself, the company itself,should have borne a very large, if not the total responsibility for making sure that that road was in fact upgraded to a very high level.

• • • June 19, 1978 Tape 4541 PK - 3 MR. W. ROWE: These improvements have been promised by succeeding ministers over the last number of years; the names of the minister even were mentioned, Mr. Speaker, in the petition. There were three ministers, I believe, or perhaps two,in any event,who apparently- I have not seen the correspondence, but my hon. friend obviously is correct when he says from his own experience that two or three ministers, succeeding ministers promised,in writing, the people of Ming's Bight to upgrade this road to an acceptable level. I will not aet into any partisan politics on the matter, Mr.

Speaker, but I would say that if this is the case- and I would assume it is the. case; I have no reason to doubt that it is the case— then •

• June 19,1978 Tape No. 4542 AH-1 MR.W.ROWE:. in all justice, Sir, the present 'sinister of Transportation and Minister of Highways should see to it that this Summer now, this construction season which we are now in and which will be ongoing for another couple of months, Sir, he should see to it that this road is upgraded to a half decent level.

It was supposed to be done after the LaScie Highway was done. 'The LaScie Highway was paved, thanks to the largess and generosity of Ottawa and the great federal member they have,Bill Rampkey,and our great minister in Ottawa.Don Jamieson, able to get DREE funds and so on, Mr. Speaker. Surely, Mr. Speaker, the Province can take the few dollars that is necessary out of their own coffers and have this road upgraded to a half decent standard to allow the people to travel over it in some confort. Thank you, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: I stand, Mr.

Speaker, to support the petition from Ming's Bight. Although the hon. member and in fact the people who sent in the petition state that two previous ministers committed themselves in writing,I would assume therefore that it was not just a promise or a commitment on behalf of a minister, any one singel individual or two in this particular case, but also they were representing the views of the government, the government of which they are members. These people now are asking that the present Minister of Transportation and Communications, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR.

NOLAN: - and I am sure with his research staff and so on he can find copies of the correspondence - MR. RIDEOUT: : I can give it to him. MR. NOUN: - if not we will arrange to get it for him. MR. RIDEOUT: I will give him a copy. MR. NOLAN: And that commitment by the present Minister of Manpower and the present Minister of Tourism will be honoured for the people of Ming's Bight. There is no reason why it should not be done •

• June 19,1978 Tape No. 4542 AH-2 MR.NOLAN: almost right away. In fact.the present minister,it seems to me, it is about time that he outlined what his plans are for the Province. Is he going to wait until the frost sets in before we find what reeds are going to be done in this Province this year? Now is the time for him to do it. This is what the House of Assembly is for,to bring in programmes to be discussed and be debated. The minister at the moment has had his problems,i realize,with his airforce and so on but now is the time to get down to the roads. These are things that people want to know about now.

AN HON. MEMBER: Come back to earth. MR. NOLAN: So I hope that the minister will come back down to earth and will take a look at some of the roads, Ming's Bight being the one specifically in the petition just presented that the minister should address himself to. I assume that he will take the word of the hon. member and of the people who presented the,petition. Eis two predecessors committed themselves to doing work in writing to the Community Council of Ming's Bight and surely he is not going to ignore such a commitment.

I am sure that the commitment was not made frivolourly, not by my friend the Minister of Manpower and so on so I look to the minister now in this petition, in rising to speak to it which is the least that he can do. S MR. RIDEOUT: MR. NOLAN: 1975 election. MR.RIDEOUT: MR. NOLAN: This commitment came during the 1975 election. The Minister of Manpower's commitment came during the He was Minister of Highways then. He was Minister of Highways. So I hope that the present Minister of Highways will not have this lying on his conscience.

He cannot bury it in his files; it is something that has been done and I am sure that there is htrdly a single individual in this House that does not have road problems within their community. AN HON. MEMBER: Very definitely. MR. NOLAN: But for some reason the minister has decided to keep everybody in the dark other than what has come through Ottawa, through federal committees and so on. So it is time now that the minister outlined

June 19,1978 Tape No. 4542 AH-3 MR. NOLAN: exactly what his plans are for the various areas of the Province, not wait until the House of Assembly is closed because it may not close as soon as he thinks. But now is the time. We are going to give him lots of time to do. I am sure members will give him unanimous support so that lie can outline his programme in great detail which he apparently likes to do. So I certainly support the plea of this - Pardon! AN HON. MEMBER: Before Regatta Day. MR. NOLAN: • Before Regatta Day we. will be out.

But I certainly support the prayer of the petition as presented by my hon. friend and I would hope that Ming's Bight road,the minister may even announce it this afternoon sometime or certainly tomorrow without fail, and those people will not think that they are being used friviously by people who come in here to .the House of Assembly and the moment they leave the community that they forget where they came from.So it is up to the minister to speak to this petition and not ignore it. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for LaPoile. MR. ,TEARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of-the

June 19, 1978 Tape 4543 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: petition, Sir, presented by my hon. colleague, the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) on behalf of 200 of his constituents in the community of Ming's Bight who would like to have their road paved. I believe there are about five miles of road involved here. And I would like to say, Mr. Speaker, in support of this petition that when the Liberals were in power, Sir, we built that piece of road and when we got kicked out in 1972, on January 18th, that road was'in excellent condition from the information of my hon. friend. It was in excellent condition.

It has deteriorated over the last five or six years. It was a beautiful piece of road, Sir, in 1972, but like everything else in the Province, Sir, it is going down; it is either closed up, going down or deteriorated. MR. W—ROWE: Wrack and ruin. MR. NEARY: Wrack and ruin. And this piece of highway has deteriorated so badly that now some parts of it are a safety .hazard listening to the description given by my hon. friend. MR. RIDEOUT: That is right. MR. NEARY: It is washed away. The culverts are bad and the road - MR. RIDEOUT: Sunk in the bog. MR.

NEARY: And the road is sunk down into the bog so my hon. colleague told us there introducing the petition. So it is a very serious matter, Sir. It is more serious than hon. members may realize. And,Mr. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman indicated there was a promise made by two ministers by the names mentioned in the petition, Mr. Rousseau and Mr. Morgan - they were not mentioned as ministers, they were mentioned by name - who had promised the people in writing that that road would be upgraded.

June 19, 1978 Tape 4543 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: So here we have an example of another broken promise similar to the one we have in Grand Falls where my hon. colleague got into a racket with his colleague the other night over the hospital out there and told him to shut up and sit down and not be embarrassing him in a public racket. The hon. gentleman got up on a point of order. The hon. member thought he was in the House of Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman should confine his remarks to the road. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker - MR. MURPHY: Excerpts from the Mifflin report. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MURPHY: Would you like me to read a paragraph from that? MR. NEARY: Yes, I certainly would. Go ahead, read it! Read away! We have not heard yet about the fires. and we have not heard about A. B. Walsh and we have not heard about Scrivener, but we have heard about that one. Justice has been done in that case, but the other ones are covered up. MR. M. ROWE:, The Dobbin affair. MR. NEARY: The Dobbin affair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I must point out to hon. gentlemen on both sides, right and left, that they must confine their remarks to the road under consideration or at least a branch of that road, but something closely connected to it. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, the only way that I can connect it is to say that this is an example of another broken promise by the administration, and when they were accused, Sir, recently of a broken promise in Grand Falls

June 19, 1978 Tape 4543 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: they said that the government had got down - they were prepared to get down and roll in the muck and the mud and the mire, but they are not prepared to keep their promises. I suppose we could say the same thing about this piece of road, Sir. MR. MURPHY: Authority. MR. NEARY: Yes, so? Anything else the hon. gentleman wants to say now? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: No, that is right. Mullaly will come up now in due course when we get the Auditor General cracking and the Public Accounts Committee. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Hon. members on both sides are seriously abusing the rules with respect to petitions. MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition, Sir, and I do hope that - not because two ministers, Sir, have retired from that department or got flicked out of that department that the other minister does not have to keep their promise, because my understanding of the way the parliamentary system works, Sir, is that when a minister makes a commitment he makes it on behalf of government. AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MR.

NEARY: So the promise is being made on behalf of government and the succeeding minister then has to fulfil that commitment. He has to carry out that commitment or that promise that was made by his predecessor. So I would hope, Sir, that the present minister, being an hon. gentleman and a decent, respectable citizen, a man who keeps his word, the only man who gives us straight answers here in the House of Assembly, that this gentleman will see to it that

June 19, 1978 Tape 4543 EC - 4 MR. NEARY: the promise made by the two previous ministers on behalf of the government will be kept and that the people in the community of Ming's Bight will get their road upgraded this year to the extent that it will no longer be a safety hazard. So, Sir, I support the prayer of the petition wholeheartedly and I would expect now to hear a few words from the minister telling the House, telling the people and the member for the district that a few dollars will be found this year in the department to do something with this five mile stretch of road that is in such bad shape. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! S

June 19, 1978 Tape No. 4544 NM - 1 • • • MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague and good friend from Baie Verte - White Bay district and I support most of the things that have been said already and support the petition. One thing the present Minister of Tourism, is going - one legacy he is going to leave with the Department of Highways is a litany of broken promises. We just heard from the petition that the minister promised to upgrade that road to a decent standard.

I can confirm that he made the same kind of promises to the people in Buchans, that he would look at the route of the Buchans - Howley Road and see that an agreement was struck between Hydro and the Department of Highways. That never materialized. And every other day we get petitions indicating now that that minister promised to do certain things that were not done. And maybe that is the reason that the minister is no longer in that particular department. There are enough people. The Premier found out that he was making promises that he could not keep and probably had no, intention of keeping. I do not know.

But, Mr. Speaker, another thing that fascinates me is that in the three sessions I have been here, petition after petition after petition have come in for the upgrading of roads and it is a fact, Mr. Speaker, that this administration has not built a mile of new road in this Province in seven years. All the petitions are asking for the upgrading of roads that were built prior to these hon. people taking office. The great hue and cry, Mr.

Speaker, about the condition the Trans-Canada is in, the previous minister tried to tell the people of Newfoundland that the reason the Trans-Canada is in such a bad shape is because it was built to lesser than national standards and that is a crock of nonsense, Mr. Speaker. The reason the Trans-Canada is in so bad a shape, and all the •

• June 19, 1978 Tape No. 4544 NM - 2 ID MR. FLIGHT: access roads in this Province, all the roads under control of the government, is-there is practically no maintenance, no upkeep of the roads at all, not only did they not build roads in the Province this past seven years, Mr. Speaker, they have not maintained roads. They have allowed the roads to deteriorate. to the point we see them today and as a result we have petitions coming in from Ming's Bight and communities all over Newfoundland. I am of the community myself, Mr. Speaker.

Seven years ago the road from Buchans Junction to Millertown was in ideal, excellent condition. And now it is not fit to walk over let alone drive:over,and we have over 100 children every day on that road in a school bus. So not only has this administration in Ming's Bight case but in other communities, not only do they have no great regard for the people who drive over the roads, but they have not got that high a regard for the safety of the children by their own programme now are forced to use those roads and get them into high schools and regional high schools.

There is a bus • route in my district, Mr.'Speaker, twenty-one miles, in which kindergarten children drive twenty-one miles on a school bus and there are stretches on that road that are hazardous, Mr. Speaker. The pavement is broken up, shoulders washed away and still the Department of Highways - never mind, let them drive over it, no maintenance. So, Mr. Speaker, it is a good question and it is a good point to make. But'this administration has built no roads and they have not even had the compassion for the people of Newfoundland to maintain the roads that they inherited.

The Trans-Canada Highway today is in a mess and one of the reasons it is in a mess is because this administration has refused to do the maintenance and the upgrading and the upkeep that would have kept

• June 19,.1978 Tape No. 4544 NM - 3 MR. FLIGHT: the road in a decent passable condition and that applies to most of the roads in this Province. Mr. Speaker, I support the petition so ably presented. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of the petition • so ably presented by my colleague on behalf of the 210 residents of Ming's Bight in his district, the district of Baie Verte - White Bay. And again, Mr. Speaker, we have more evidence of broken promises. MR. CALLAN: Bad thing. MR.

LUSH: And one wonders just how many promises were broken by this particular administration, how many promises and how many commitments were not lived up to and that is the frustrating part to the citizens, Mr. Speaker, to the citizens right throughout this Province. I know that it is a matter of grave concern in my own district were similar commitments and similar promises were made regarding the upgrading, the construction and p'aving of certain sections of road. And, Mr. Speaker, it is an absolute human misery and torture of having to drive over some of these poorly maintained gravel roads in this Province.

The tremendous • •

June 19, 1978 Tape 4545 PK - 1 Mr. Lush: inconvenience, that it causes people in driving over bad roads,the extra expense that it entails to a motorist getting springs busted and shocks busted and tires punctured, absolute misery, Mr. Speaker, absolute torture, and when hon. members feel, when people living in the areas concerned see promises and commitments broken in this way it causes them to lose faith in their own government. And, Mr.

Speaker, I certainly hope that the minister will be able to honour those commitments made by his two predecessors and give the people of Ming's Bight some consolation, some hope that the road concerned will be upgraded and paved in this fiscal year. Another point of concern, Mr.

Speaker, when people 'observe areas around the Province where roads are being paved, because I am sure that people wonder from time to time what criteria is used in deciding which roads are going to be upgraded, which roads are going to be reconstructed because a close study of the situation defies in many cases all logic as to why certain roads are upgraded and paved as opposed to other roads. And I would hope that this new minister, the present Minister of Transportation and Communications will be governed by the criteria that was so clearly and so explicity put forward in the blueprint for development.

That we are going to look at those areas where there is a resource, a natural resource, and that all of such areas are going to be given high priority in the allocation of funds in this present fiscal year. And I am sure our people would understand much more readily than what they now do if such criteria was used in allocating funds for the upgrading and the reconstruction and the paving of roads in a particular area. So, Mr. Speaker, I certainly hope that the minister and the government will become more sensitive to the torture and to the misery of driving over poorly maintained roads. There are students, Mr.

Speaker, in this Province who in the morning before they leave to go to school they have got to take some sort of medicine, some sort of pills to stablize, stablizers, I suppose, to stablize their heads and to stablize their stomachs so that they are going to be able to make the trip and get to the school as healthy as possible.

June 19, 1978 Tape 4545 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Not tranquilizers! Not tranquilizers: MR. LUSH: Not tranquilizers, no, stablizers. MR. W. ROWE: Gravol. MR. LUSH: Gravol, that is what I am looking for, Gravol. I know in several areas in my district - MR. RIDEOUT: They call them gravel pills. MR. LUSH: Right. In several areas in my district that parents tell me that their children have to take these Gravol pills to ensure that they will get to school in good shape, as they prepare to bounce and float over the terrible roads throughout this Province. So, Mr.

Speaker, in speaking to this petition I would hope that the minister will keep these things in mind, the torture, and the misery caused to all sections of driving over these terrible, terrible gravel roads in this Province. MR. NEARY: Gravol roads. MR. LUSH: Gravol roads. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, as I rise to support the petition in behalf of the people in Ming's Bight,I cannot help but remark on the amount of money that has been spent on road reconstruction, and maintenance, and improvements over the past five or six years.

I guess we have been spending $50 million to $60 million a year; the various levels of government, $300 million, $400 million. We have got about 2,500 miles of unpaved road and about 2,900 miles of paved road, and it would appear that we are only about half way there. I realize that the needs are great and that there is no such thing as a good gravel road any more, unless it is asphalted and up to the standard of the Trans-Canada or what we would like the Trans-Canada to be, and it is indeed not a good road.

One must also keep mind the fact that there are parts of this Province still which have no road connections at all after all of these years of progress under the Confederation system. So, Sir, needless to say that we in the department and government will be doing everything we can for the people in Ming's Bight and all these

• • • June 19, 1978 Tape 4545 PK - 3 Mr. Doody: other parts of the Province that so desperately need improved road conditions, and improved communications and transportation

S S • June 19, 1978, Tape 4546, Page 1 apb MR. DOODY: conditions. It is not an unusual thing, unfortunately, for people to sometimes promise more than they are in a position to provide. It was only recently that there was a road in Buchans Junction that needed to be done and which we approved this year and managed to find the funds for. The file on that one went back to - 1958 was the first time that was promised and I do not think the Tories were too thick in the House of Assembly at that particular time, Your Honour.

But nevertheless, out of the largesse and goodness and the hearts of the people of this Province we have decided to at long last fulfil and honour the obligation and commitment made by that minister in 1958, and we will be putting a road into Buchans Junction this year. Sir, I can only say that the - MR. NEARY: You can thank the present Minister of Justice for that - MR. DOODY: Well, if he did he forged somebody's signature. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DOODY: If he did he forged somebody's signature to the letter and I am not about to name that particular person, I have too much respect for the Senator. MR.

NEARY: (Inaudible) man up in Ottawa. MR. DOODY: Your Honour, as I speak in support of the petition,I can promise the people in Ming's Bight that we will do everything we possibly can within the • fiscal limitations of the Province and hopefully, Sir, we will be able to show some improvement in the pretty near future in that particular road section. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Grand Falls. MR, LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I just have to say •

June 19, 1978, Tape 4546, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUNDRIGAN: one or two words. First of all,I believe the minister's comment about the number of miles of roads that are still unpaved, and the number of miles of road still unconstructed, the kinds of concerns for the monies we will need in the future is the reason I want to say a word on behalf of the hon. gentleman. For about seven or eight years the member for Gander (Mr. H.

Collins) and myself, like the present member, who.is very concerned and one of the better members in the Legislature, in my opinion, one of the future leaders of his party, we championed the cause of many of the communities on the Northeast coast trying to get roadwork done. At that time the present Leader of the Opposition was a Minister of the Crown and he tells me he was the member for that particular community for eight years, which sort of suggests that the problem has existed for quite some time under both governments.

But in any event, Your Honour, the question remains, the fact that we have spent $300 million in the last six years on road work in the Province, and that we still have some 2,900 miles of road, if I can quote the minister, unpaved - MR. DOODY: Twenty-nine hundred done and twenty-five hundred to do. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Twenty-nine done and twenty- five to do. We have no Labrador Highway which is one of the great needs in this Province, which is going to cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

We have a community like Fogo, Fogo Island, with twelve communities,one of the most progressive fishing parts.of our Province with one string of pavement, a very high priority which I will Rive support to. unpaved. I can go right around the Province and bring into focus questions like the hon. gentleman raised. The important question is,,How or when are we going

• June_14.,_ 1978, Tape 4546, Page 3 -- apb MR. LUNDRIGAN: to be able to raise • the monies, get the monies to necessarily complete these types of projects? I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that one of the most clear questions that has not been attacked this year in the Legislature is the question of the renegotiation of our Terms of Union, Term 29.— I will continue to harp on this until I get some debate on it - which if we have term 29 translated into 1978 dollars, it will result in $35 million coming into the Province annually compared with $8 million today, resulting in $27 million or $28 million more coming into the Province which could be used for public services. I feel, Mr.

Speaker, that maybe in addressing ourselves to that type of question which was raised again today by the member, we should get into the business of where the monies are coming from. I grant you it is good politics to stand up and present petitions,to support petitions as we are all doing, but I think we have to get on to the more refined question as to the resolution of the'problem. I think we should definitely, all members, get involved in some kind of a resolution which can be presented to the federal government asking for renegotiation of the terms, because that is the source of much of the funds.

The Leader of the Opposition, the former Leader of the Opposition - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. LUNDRIGAN: I do not know why the two gentlemen are so sensitive today. After a weekend of holidaying I thought the Leader of the Opposition would be relaxed. I can understand why the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is under a bit of tension today, but let him keep quiet for just a minute. MR. NEARY: Why am I under a bit of tension? MR. LUNDRIGAN: I thought I heard quite a number of people around the street talking today.' 'There is a

June 19, 1978, Tape 4546, Page 4 -- apb MR. LUNDRIGAN: good reason why the member should be under a bit of tension, He does not like the prest today. I am surprised he did not rise on a question of'privilege. But in any event, Your Honour, I believe quite seriously that we • •

June 19, 1978 Tape 4547 EC - 1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: should address ourselves to where we are going to get the money, because the Leader of the Opposition the other day took off on the government about the fact that we are something like $2.2 billion in debt, $1.6 million of it a direct debt. The former Leader of the Opposition made the same observation that one of the critical problems facing the Province today is the inability of the Province to finance the necessary level of services.

And I feel that it is our obligation, particularly the Leader of the Opposition who can ask a dozen questions on it today, to focus on that type of problem. I contend that we have to look at Ottawa bearing in mind Term 29 which gave us a guarantee that we would have a level of services equal to that of the rest of the Atlantic Provinces in order to justify the $8 million, that that was the basis for a special term which gave us some financial support from the federal government.

I believe the term is inadequate, the services are still not up to scratch and we need to approach the federal government to look at that particular term again. I think that is the area that we should focus on. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to rise and speak in support of.the prayer of the petition from the residents of Ming's,Bight who are asking for an improved road to their community - pavement, I believe, they were asking for. AN HON. MEMBER: Upgrading. MR. CALLAN: Upgrading.

They were not even asking for pavement, I see - upgrading.

June 19, 1978 Tape 4547 EC - 2 MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, in speaking in support of this petition, what I would like to say first of all is I would like to make a comment. I hope that it is in order. Since the member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) who was named as chairman of a committee on Standing Orders of this House has no intentions of calling that committee together, perhaps I might make an observation here.

If the committee had ever met, being a member I would have suggested that perhaps if there are any petitions a couple of points should be kept in mind: one, perhaps the number of people who support a petition would be governed partially by the number of names on that petition; in other words, if you have 4,000 names against the spruce budworm spraying programme you would expect a lot of people to support it because it concerns a lot of people. If you have 200 names about a road or something then perhaps half a dozen people who know something about what they are talking about; this is why, Mr.

Speaker, I am supporting this petition. I do know something about the rural areas of this Province and about dusty roads - gravel roads the hon. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) talked about - gravel and dusty roads. And, Mr. Speaker, perhaps another guideline that could be kept in mind for people who speak in support of a petition is, perhaps that member, the member who is supporting the petition know something about what he is talking about, perhaps that he represent a district which does have gravel roads, unlike, I would imageine, the roads in Grand Falls. To hear the member for Grand Falls, Mr.

Speaker, standing in support of this petition, to me I think it is a waste of time of this House. If it were parliamentary, Mr. Speaker, I would say that the member for Grand Falls could be termed a bit hypocritical, but that is unparliamentary so therefore I cannot say that, but for the same hon.

June 19, 1978 Tape 4547 EC - 3 MR. CALLAN: gentleman to stand and talk about Term 29 when one of the finest friends that he ever had in Ottawa - MR. SPEAKER: (Young) Order, please! MR. CALLAN: - was the man who tried to take it away from this Province, it is a little bit hypocritical. Mr. Speaker, in supporting this petition, as I said, I speak from experience. I know what it is to represent a district where there are miles and miles and miles of dirt road. Mr.

Speaker, some of the people who spoke in support of this petition mentioned that this new minister is pretty fair, pretty impartial and so on and perhaps a big improvement over the former Minister of T. and C. I think that probably is a fair statement, Mr. Speaker; at least we do have some road work going on this year on the T.C.H., some of it between Chance Cove, which is in my district and also down as far as the Welcome Inn at Goobies. And I am very happy for two reasons, Mr. Speaker, to see that the Trans-Canada Highway in that particular

section of the Province is being upgraded. Number one,of course, the road is badly in need of upgrading, the T.C.H., and at the same time •

• June 19,1978 Tape No. 4548 AH-1 MR. CALLAN: it means probably between eighty and one hundred jobs for the people who live in that particular areas of my district and of course no doubt the people will be hired from that particular area. The eight or ten people that have been hired so far have come from that area and no doubt when the contractors move in they will do the same thing, the will bring their supervisors and so on but the others no doubt will be taken from the local area. Mr.

Speaker, in concluding in the last minutes that I have I might say-. the minister is not there now but he is probably listening.. I might say that I was happy to hear him say that he will have hs officials and he will take a look at the request.

The minister did not come out and say," I am sorry to inform the member for Baie Verte- White Bay (Mr.Rideout) that monies have all been committed this year and therefore we willchave to wait until next year to see what can be done." The minister, and I remember quite vividly what he said , "We will have a look at this request and see what can be done about it." I am happy to hear that, Mr.

Speaker, because it was only an hour ago that I finished writing a letter to the Minister of Transportation and Communications asking in view of the fact that only funds for one and a half miles of reconstruction, 'these are the only funds that have been allocated for the whole district of - MR-SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: -Bellevue, I ask that another $50,000 or $75, 000 be allocated. I know that that request will be granted since the funds have not been all extended. Mr. Speaker, I support the petition. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d' Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support the petition tabled by my colleague from Baie Verte-White Bay (Ar.Rideout) on behalf of 211 people who would like to have commitments made by the two former Ministers of Transportation, the present Minister of Manpower who made a commitment on the subject and whose word is something that we take pretty

• June 19,1978 Tape No. 4548 AH-2 MR. SIMMONS: seriously normally and the now Minister of Tourism, • both these made commitments in writing, I remind the ministers, to have this road upgraded once the LaScie road has been paved. Well that has been done for two or three years now,as I understand it. The business, Mr. Speaker, of presenting petitions is something we had better be very careful • I off because there are certain peple who are chipping away at it,.chipping away at the right.

And I had to go back a few minutes ago to the Parliamentary Rule Book to see if somehow we were off base here and I find as I read it that it says"The right of petitioning parliament is acknowledged as a • fundamental principle and has been uninterrupted from very early times." I wish the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) would read that, Mr. Speaker, because he is chipping away at this to the point that he has become a source of embarrassment and indeed a source of abuse to the people • of Newfoundland who are exercising today, Mr.

Speaker, a very basic right, let us not forget that, the right of petitioning is the most basic under our constitution, the right to petition parliament for the redress of grievances. I hear the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan). talking 'about good politics to present petitions. Yes, it happens to be good politics to do what is the basic right of people, that happens to be good politics, we make no apologies for that, Mr. Speaker. Also though, Mr. Speaker, it happen to be the duty of us and the obligation to present petitions and whether or not the member for Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan) likes it or not of course it is there in the.law book, in the rule book and we intend to exercise it on behalf of the people of Newfoundland who take time to send in these petitions, not thinking for a minute they • are going to be scoffed at by people. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HON.MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I feel that the hon. member is in the realm of debate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Hon. member for Burge° - Bay dlEspoir.

June 19,1973 Tape No. 4548 AH-3 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, three of a kind, he says, I would I/ rather be three of this kind than any number of his kind. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, if he is concerned about Term 29, why was he not in the House when I talked about it for an hour instead • of out writing up his silly points of order to try and interriTt me. he says Term 29 has not been debated here. I talked about it for an hour and a half, Mr. Speaker, last week. He did not hear it because he was out with his nose in a rule book trying to find some warped little point, • to come in and exercise his grade seven knowledge on. • • • • • •

• June 19, 1978 Tape No. 4549 NM - 1 • MR. SIMMONS: Stunned boy!: You are too stunned. Why do you not talk to your buddy Diefenbaker who wanted to take it all away from us under Term 29. He was going to give us nothing, your great buddy Diefenbaker. • MR. LUNDRIGAN: Too much of your - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: He spent less time out dressing up his silly points of order, Mr. Speaker, more time talking to his buddy Diefenbaker who fouled this thing up in the first place, perhaps we would have more money under Term 29 than we are getting right now thanks to his crowd up in Ottawa.

Thank God, Mr. Speaker, thank God he is not lose. Thank God he can only talk about it. If he tried to do something about it he would probably fool it up like Diefenbaker did. MR. LUNDRIGAN: You had a bad day today. MR. SIMMONS: No, I had a good day today until I saw the member for Grand Falls, Mr. Speaker, a very good day. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: I am trying hard to speak. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! MR. NEARY: A lovely day. Justice is being done. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I would ask all hon. members on my right and left to please refrain from interrupting the speaker. The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. NEARY: A beautiful day,boy. Now all we have to do is get - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr. Speaker, my colleague, the Leader of the Oppositibn, was indeed their member for eight years and I want to pay tribute to him, Mr. Speaker, for getting the road built. He did not deteriorate the road. He got it built and it was.in • • • •

• June 19, 1978 Tape No. 4549 NM - 2 MR. SIMMONS: good shape in the days I used to travel over in in 1971 and '72, in good shape when I was a superitendent down there. It is since then it deteriorated. Can we get that through their stunned skulls over there, Mr. Speaker? And they talk about a five year road plan and now they are going to talk about a five year hospital plan. Well,I hope the hospital plan has more success than the five year road plan this crowd announced two years ago, Mr. Speaker. And then the member for Grand Falls tells us the Labrador Road is going to cost hundreds of Millions.

Give us $10 million and $12 million, Mr. Speaker, and we will be satisfied. MR. LUNDRIGAN: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: If the member for Grand Falls would just shut up for a-minute. If he could just shut up. He is the fellow - MR.'SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: - who is always crying in his beer because we are interrupting him. Well now I would like to say a word or two, if the member for Grand Falls would shut up. MR: SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LUNDRIGAN: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: Of course I support the petition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. George's. MRS. ISAAC: Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to say a couple of words in support of the petition presented by my colleague • from Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout). We do not have that many gravel roads in our area. Thank God it is just about all paved but we still have some that I would like to see done.

But I an concerned about this stretch of road in the Baie Verte area, particularly because it - well,I an not familiar with Ming's Bight and do not know just how far it is from Baie Verte, but the thing is, if it is very close to the Baie Verte area it is probably getting a little bit of gravel or fill from that area and my concern is that that stretch of road may contain some asbestos fibres and with school children driving over it every day, as well

June 19, 1978 10 MRS. MCISAAC: Tape No. 4549 NM - 3 as other people having to drive over it and beat up their cars and everything, my main concern is how far is it from Baie Verte and whether or not it is getting the same type of fill that was used on the Baie Verte road and whether or not it could be hazardous. Maybe Dr. Selikoff when he was there looked at this area too. It may be something for the minister to think about if there is any fill that has been put on it in recent years, where did the fill come from.

And I cannot say too much more about it because I am not familiar with it except that that is my main concern. Any fill that was put on it, where did it come from? Is there a possibility of asbestos fibres in it and is it a hazard as well as being a nuisance for people to drive over. I support the petition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to support the petition presented by the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout).

Sir, as it happens this is approximately the second anniversary of the written promises from two hon. ministers opposite, who now do not have that particular portfolio but who did make a written commitment to the Council of Ming's Bight for the - nothing big, Sir, a simple little request for the upgrading of a road, a written promise and in the provincial election of course we had the verbal promise, as was the case in many other districts in the Province. Sir, I was a little bit disappointed in my friend from Grand Falls with whom I taught with the university.

We were professors together in the faculty of Education. I expected much more from him, Sir, and if I am allowed the same latitude as the hon. member was given, Sir, I note that the hon. member for Grand Falls •

June 19, 1978 Tape 4550 PK - 1 Mr. F. Rowe: in supposedly supporting the petition, Sir, questioned the very fact that, you know, last week or a few weeks ago it was a waste of time to present petitions. This week it is good politics to present petitions. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. F. ROWE: Now, Sir, I suggest to the hon. member for Grand Falls that it is much better politics to keep promises, it is much better politics to keep promises. AN HON. MEMBER: They will find that out in the next election. MR. F. ROWE: And they will find that out when the next election rolls around, Sir.

The hon. member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan), Sir, got on with $300 million for highways his administration spent without mentioning what portion of that came from Ottawas was talking about paving on Fogo Island, and talking about the Labrador Highway, was talking about the terms of union, talking about the debt, Sir, practically everything but the subject at hand.

Sir, it seems that the hon. member does not know whether he is hunch or board or where he is these days since he got flicked out of the Cabinet, or decided to leave the Cabinet, standing up in Grand Falls at a public meeting on points of order, not realizing whether he is in the House of Assembly or at a public meeting. AN HON. MEMBER: What kind of a state are you in at all? MR. F. ROWE: What kind of a state, Sir ? The member is obviously suffering from political rabies - MR. NEARY: Did he get the blues? Does he get depressed? MR. F.

ROWE: - when he gets up, Sir, and gets on with the kind of partisan statements that he makes in the House of Assembly in supposedly supporting the petition. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. F. ROWE: Sir, I recommend that the hon. member read Beauchesne, read the Standing Orders, and think what he can say in the best interest

June 19, 1978 Tape 4550 PK - 2 Mr. F. Rowe: of his district and the best interest of this Province whether it comes through the Address in Reply, the Budget Speech, or the support of petitions, instead of trying to score cheap political points at whatever opportunity, Sir, he gets. And I am being completely relevant, Sir, because Your Honour is giving me exactly the same latitude as was given, afforded the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan). MR. LUNDRIGAN: You are not suppose to get out - MR: F: ROWE: What is wrong with the hon. member, Sir?

There he is frothing at the mouth, Sir, wild-eyed, political rabies taking over again, Sir. MR: NEARY: Have you had your valium today yet? SOME HON: MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR: LUNDRIGAN: This is becoming obnoxious, Mr. Speaker. MR..F: ROWE: Oh, yes. MR. LUNDRIGAN: I do not mind - MR: SPEAKER: A point of order? MR: F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, if this is a point of order, I will yield - MR. LUNDRIGAN: A point of order. MR: F. ROWE: - but if it is just plain obnoxious to the hon. gentleman, I have the floor. MR. SPEAKER: Is the hon. gentleman on a point of order? MR: LUNDRIGAN: On a point of order.

Maybe I can kill the hon. member's minute that he has left, and also kill the pain and the agony that the House has had to suffer. But, Mr. Speaker, talking about political rabies, did I take my valium today? comments coming from the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). I do not mind this kind of cat-calling back and forth, but, Sir, this is getting a little bit abusive.

Now I know there are no rules which cover political abuse but that is a little bit below the belt, and I would like for the hon. member, in view of the fact that it is not a fact, and it has nothing to do with me in the world. • I do not know if he is talking about himself or if he is reflecting on his own personal behaviour, but if he is going to do that, Sir, I ask for •

-11 • • • 0 • June 19, 1978 Tape 4550 PK - 3 Mr. Lundrigan : your protection against the abuse and the kinds of things that are emanating from the mouth of the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary): That is hitting below the belt and it is very obnoxious to say the very least, and I wonder why he is allowed to get away with that kind of abuse, Sir. MR. F. ROWE: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Obviously the member for Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan) provoked whatever ruckus that has been in the House this afternoon, getting on with his cat calls and this sort of a thing. And if the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) was darting back, sparing off with the hon. member for arand Falls, and he finds it obnoxious, and he cannot take it, I suggest that if he cannot stand the heat he should get out of the kitchen. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. F. ROWE: There is no point of order whatsoever, Sir, the most it is is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I think I should point out to hon. members that personal references are usually or frequently irrelevant to the subject matter, and almost always provocative of debate, and it is, I think, good parliamentary practice to attack the arguments although here obviously there is not even supposed to be a debate. But I do think that personal references rather than references to the ideas of an hon. member do frequently lead to a deterioration, I would ask hon. members to refrain from them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR: 'SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR.'F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, in the minus thirty seconds at my • disposal I would like to say that I do indeed support the petition, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port au Port followed by the hon. gentleman for Fogo. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support the • petition so ably presented by the member for Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr. Rideout) on behalf of 211 residents of Ming's Bight.

June 19, 1978 Tape 4551 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, in supporting the petition I might say that I had no intention of saying anything about the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan). I have seen him here in the House for the last month and a half changing his stands from day to day and grabbing the press whenever he can, and obviously he is only trying to make himself better known for when the leadership comes up amongst the members opposite. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

When a certain • amount of irrelevance or unparliamentary procedure creeps in imperceptably then I think the sense of equity allows perhaps or suggests some reasonable balance thereof. I think that that balance has been achieved and that all hon. members now should stick to the rules without deviating from them. If not, what can be a slip of procedure will then in fact, become a regular procedure. MR. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the road that has been referred to by the hon. member in his petition is five miles of road, and I believe the petition referred to the fact that on two occasions by two separate ministers promises had been made that the road would be upgraded and paved. Mr.

Speaker, this is something that I know an awful lot about because I represent a district which has a couple of dirt roads over which students travel each day, and in most cases very young students, and on those particular roads the former Minister of Transportation and Communications came out to visit, had a meeting with the people and promised them in no uncertain terms that the road would be upgraded - not paved, but just upgraded - and that certain types of stone would go on it. And his officials were there. And then • Mr. Speaker, that minister left: half the road was done, •

• June 19, 1978 Tape 4551 EC - 2 • • MR. HODDER: the season was over, The following season the rest of the road was not done, and it surprised me when the Minister of Transportation and Communications in speaking to the petition said that it is sometimes normal to promise what the government cannot provide. And I think, Mr. Speaker, that it is not normal to promise what the government cannot provide. And before I sit down, Mr. Speaker, there is one other thing that I would like to say.

I would like to know why in this Province as I travel through this Province that ,some districts have very good roads going to small communities, very well graded roads, while in other districts there are nothing but cow paths. And I think, Mr.

Speaker, it is time that this government had some sort of a plan where they look at all the roads in this Province, particularly roads that are being used industrially, roads which lead to fisheries areas and that sort of thing and came up with a plan and told the people of Newfoundland where the roads are going to be paved and when they are going to be paved and when they are going to be upgraded and when they are going to be built, because, Mr. Speaker, there are no priorities in this government.

It is just a matter of pressure here or there or who happens to be the minister in a certain district and that is the way the roads are paved or upgraded in this Province. And I say, Mr. Speaker, that it is time that the government took the time to sit down and do a little planning. • • • CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague. And, • Mr. Speaker, what disturbs me about this petition and •

June 19, 1978 Tape 4551 EC - 3 CAPT. E. WINSOR: other petitions as well, when we find that the petitioners stated that a promise or promises had been made by various ministers that this particular piece of road would be upgraded. Now, Sir, to me a promise unkept is like a debt unpaid and surely, if it is true, and I have no reason to doubt the member or the people of Ming's Bight through the member, who stated that this piece of road had been promised to be upgraded-and I do not know whether pavement was brought into it - by two previous ministers. So this is very, very serious.

And I would just like to remind the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) when he mentioned about Term 29, he must realize that it was the former P.C. Government or Tory Government of Ottawa who put a limit to the amount of money that Newfoundland was to receive from Ottawa through Term 29. AN HON. MEMBER: They did not want to do it at all. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Well, they wanted to cancel it; however, he must remember also that it was over Term 29 that certain members of the Conservative Party or the P.C. Party at that time resigned from the party and formed the Newfoundland Party.

Two members, if I recall correctly, remained with the party;

June 19, 1978, Tape 4552, Page 1 apb CAPT. WINSOR: just two members out of a total of five, I believe, members of the Opposition at that time. So, Mr. Speaker, if it were not for the monies coming in from Ottawa, where Ottawa today is paying 90 per cent of most of the roads that are upgraded and paved in Newfoundland, because it was the former administration who had built the roads through Newfoundland and, as I have said many times here, who broke the curse of isolation in Newfoundland.

So, when we were moved out of office we passed over the roads, well built, well constructed, the same as we passed over schools, the same as we passedcwer hospitals and other modern facilities. So, Sir, this administration came in and it was all there for them. All they had to do was concentrate on improving and developing those services further. This they have failed to do. We see the public debt increasing all of the time.

It has increased now $2.5 billion beyond what it was when the previous administration governed-this Province,and yet. we find that there are miles and miles of road not fit to drive over, more of less, for heavy traffic. Mr. Speaker, where are the government priorities? This is a question we have to ask.

Sir, I support the peition presented by my colleague and would request that genial member, the Minister of Transportation and Communications, who has, I think, a soft spot in his heart for the isolated places in this Province, and I think a little persuasion, a little co-operation from his colleagues and most of the roads will be done with the next couple of years, and I hope and trust that he will not be overlooking the roads on Fogo Island. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Stephenville. MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the

June 19, 1978, Tape 4552, Page 2 -- apb MR. MCNEIL: petition of 211 people from Ming's Bight. Mr. Speaker, it amazes me to hear the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) suggest that Term 29 is the cause of a lot of our ills in this Province. If he is suggesting that then I will say that maybe it was because the Federal Tory Party at that time did us wrong. MR. J. WINSOR: Hear, hear! MR. MCNEIL: I would say, Mr. Speaker, that instead of referring to term 29, we should be referring to co-operation.

I can point to my own district where for the last five years or so we have been trying to put forward an industrial access road. We have had the road begun by the heavy equipment school, which is funded by the federal government, federal funds. They started off the road and when they approached the government for funds for blasting, which at that time was stated as being over $200,000; this year when checked again, the minister's own people stated it was under $200,000. Mr.

Speaker, if we are trying to save money and trying to give service, here is a way we could use the facilities of that school, the heavy, equipment training school. We are paying for training. We could have them actually constructing our roads. So, Mr. Speaker, we must have co-operation and use the existing facilities that we have to get the maximum in road repairs and rebuilding. Mr. Speaker, I gladly support the petition of my colleague. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. J. WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of 281 persons from Gaultois, Hermitage and Seal Cove schools. The prayer of the petition reads: "To the hon. House of Assembly:

June 19, 1978, Tape 4552, Page 3 -- apb MR. J. WINSOR: we the undersigned disagree with he government's inflexible stand on the implementation of twenty-six to one pupil-teacher ratio beginning . September 1978.

"We would like government to reinstate the programme of allowing boards with declining enrollments to retain the number of teachers that they would have been entitled to had the twenty-five to one teacher-pupil ratio been introdUced. feel that a twenty-five to one pupil-teacher ratio is not only necessary, but should even be lowered in order to maintain the programme we currently have in our schools and hence to maintain the present quality of education in schools." As I said, this is signed by 281 signatures.

If you multiply that by the number of kids they have in school,an average of maybe three or four, you have quite a number of pupils represented. •

June 19, 1978 Tape 4553 PK - 1 Mr. J. Winsor: The parents of children attending schools at Gaultois, Hermitage, and Seal Cove are very much dissatisfied with the implacable stand. There has been quite stir up even before September comes, because when I was in my district, - it must be three weeks ago now. - there was quite a stir up.

There are teachers moving their trailers from one place to another; some are living in trailers and this is going to cause quite a stir up in the rural areas, and I think most of the members in the House have spoken about it, the stir up that they have, the changes that have to be taken ,and placed in their schools. They are losing the extra-curricular things, not extra-curricular really, the things that should be standard curriculum, guidance counsellors, music, art, and other things. Now what kind of a chaotic situation are we going to be into when they start moving these around?

They are going to have to double up on their classes, they will have multipurpose classes instead of the tremendous strides that were being made by the Integrated Board in our area. The schools were looking up, the kids were getting a much better system of education than they ever had before, and now they are let down. And I have very much pleasure in supporting the prayer of this petition and ask that it be placed on the Table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova followed by the hon. gentleman for Port au Port. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague on behalf of 281 people from the Gaultois- Seal Cove schools.

The people concerned about the teacher cutbacks and more precisely concerned about the student-teacher ratio, concerned about the formula which the government are so vigorously pursuing this fiscal year, the twenty-six to one, the ratio of twenty-six to one, that is the ratio that is being used by the government this year right across the Province, which is resulting in many school boards losing some of their ' teachers- some more, some less- and obviously or quite logically hurting some areas more than others.

June 19, 1978 Tape 4553 PK - 2 Mr. Lush: Now, Mr. Speaker, I have mentioned several times while speaking to these petitions here in the House of Assembly that if the government were to aim towards the national student-teacher average, that is, taking all of the provinces together and coming up with an average, if we were to do this that instead of laying off 120 teachers in this Province in this fiscal year, that we would have to hire somewhere in the vicinity of 600 teachers. I think, the figure is somewhere around 570, that is how many teachers this Province would be hiring to meet the national average.

And, Mr. Speaker, I think if we are to improve the education within this Province, if we are to offer equality of educational opportunity to our students then that is the direction in which we must be going to try and get as close to the national average as possible. The government have been using the excuse that the student enrollment is declining right across Canada, so since this sort of thing is happening right across Canada they are losing teachers then we must follow suit. But, Mr.

Speaker, we have been further behind, we have never had the frills nor the opportunity that our Mainland counterparts have had, so this would have been the time to try and bridge the gap. This would have been the time for this government to stop this movement of laying off teachers, and over a couple of years without hiring any additional teachers, but keeping, maintaining the status quo that over a period of a couple of years we could have bridged this gap with respect to numbers of teachers,and with respect to quality education and the equality of educational opportunity throughout • S

June 19, 1978 Tape 4554 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: this land. But we use the argument very effectively that this is a trend right across Canada. And, Mr. Speaker, we can use this where it is advantageous. If we were to look at other areas of expenditure to make other comparisons we would find that if we were to try to meet equality with other Canadian provinces that we would have to up the expenditures in education right around. For example, the total amount of expenditures in the fiscal year, the total amount of budgetary expenditures, is far less than the Canadian average, the total of the Budget.

So here is an area,if we were aiming at equality throughout the country that we would have to up our expenditures tremendously. The same with the amount of money spent per student throughout Canada. We fall far short of that. We fall far short of the amount of money spent per person on education. So these are all areas that to see the picture clearly we have to make the total comparison.

So looking at these expenditures there is no question about it at all that this Province • is not making the effort in the field of education that other provinces are making and no doubt these are the comparisons that we have to make. So, Mr. Speaker, let me conclude by saying that I support the petition of people concerned about the high student-teacher ratio that the government is now applying to decide the number of teachers that each board should have.

And by way of clueing up, if we were to meet the national average across this country, instead of laying off 120 teachers this Province would find itself in the position of hiring close to 600 teachers. • The minister says it is wrong, Sir, but that comes from •

June 19,1978 Tape 4554 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: Statistics Canada in this year and that is what this Province would have to do. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure to support the petition presented by the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor) on behalf of 281 residents of Gaultois, Hermitage and Seal Cove. Mr.

Speaker, as I was saying last Friday when a quorum call interfered with my support of another petition by that hon. gentleman, there are certain misconceptions on the government side of the House as to the effects that the cutbacks will have on education in Newfoundland schools. Now while it seems that while you have fewer students you can have fewer teachers and education will not suffer, the fact is that students do not leave schools in any set pattern and a school could lose students from every classroom with only a small drop in the enrolment of each class and yet would lose one teacher for the whole school.

And when this happens then the school board or the principal, whichever case it might be, has to decide whether it is a physical education teacher, whether it is a specialist that must go or whether it is a classroom teacher that must go, and in many cases it has been the specialist. AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MR.

HODDER: In the primary and elementary school where there are cutbacks in the same way, it is very often that students who are in the smaller classes, the more disadvantaged students who did not have the opportunity of an academic environment and had been put into smaller • classes for reading skills or math skills or whatever they might be, these are the students that will be lumped in with •

June 19, 1978- Tape 4554 EC - 3 MR. HODDER: larger classes and these are the students who will suffer. So, Mr. Speaker, it is the disadvantaged student and the specialist who are suffering. And as the hon. the member for' Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) said, there are no frills in our schools in Newfoundland today, no frills at all. And when you start losing guidance counsellors and when you start having one class instead of three for mathematics and that sort of thing, then the quality of education is deteriorating in Newfoundland schools.

Now I believe the prayer of that ' petition said something to the effect that they would like the pupil-teacher ratio to be decreased. Now in the past, the official excuse for not decreasing the pupil-teacher ratio was the fact that'it would cost the government a lot of money to provide classrooms and to build high school buildings. And, Mr. Speaker, now that we have declining enrolments throughout the Province, this is an excellent time to decrease the pupil-teacher ratio. Mr. Speaker, in the past five or six years this Province has been suffering economic

June 19,1978 Tape No. 4555 AH-1 MR. HODDER: . pressures. These economic pressures steam from many things, the most importantj think,possibly things like the takeover of Churchill Falls and blowing the tops of mountains for the Lower Churchill and that asinine, stupid move with no planning to start the transmission line on the Lower Churchill across and now they have decided to go the other way.i3ut blunders of that sort have caused economic pressures to go in this government and economic pressures on the people of Newfoundland.

And now the children of Newfoundland are suffering for the mismanagement of hon. gentlemen opposite. And I say, Mr. Speaker, that this government must decide what its priorities are, they must decide what the economic needs of this Province are and.what the social needs are. And certainly, Mr. Speaker, the social needs of this Province are great,.In some cases possibly we can cut back on social prpgrammes,but at the same time we must not forget education. The greatest resource that Newfoundland has is the Newfoundland people and it is on those people that we must spend out money. if we are to look to the future.

I think that the announced cutbacks by this government in the last budget in teachers.and the problems that this has caused in Newfoundland schools, has set the schools in this Province back many years. I believe that the government must change its stand, I know it is too late for next year, but I do hope that when the Task Force brings in its recommendations, and I am sure that they will bring in the right recommendations, that the minister will change his mind and reverse the trend, and the stand that he has taken previously. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

W.N.ROWEa I would like to say a brief word in support of the petition peesented by my hon. friend from the communities of Gaultois, Hermitage and Seal Cove,I believe, three communities in the district of Fortune - Hermitage, a petition, Sir, which we have seen many times presented to this House during this session. I would say there have been twenty or thirty similar petitions presented from all over Newfoundland and Labrador which have had the effect of decrying the cutbacks in the • •

June 19,1978 Tape No: 4555 A11-2 MR.W.ROWE: quality of education, the decreasing of the quality of education by this administration. Now, Mr. Speaker, the statistics in education in Newfoundland are not reassuring. We have, as has been mentioned many times before, one half of the rate of graduates from trade school that they have across Canada generally, one quarter of the rate from trade school,say,in Alberta or Ontario and the same figures apply to university.

As far as grade 11 graduates are concerned,the rate of graduation is even worse; it is something below fifty per cent.of the national rate found across Canada. Now how can any government, Mr. Speaker, or any Minister of Education in all conscience unilaterally take moves or make moves or take decisions which at the very least may have a further adverse effect on our education system without adequate study, enquiry, research into the whole problem of our relatively low educational standards.

I do not mean the standards of what is taught in school or the standards of the teachers that are teaching in school; I am referring to the appalling, the abysmally low statistics of graduation from high school, from university, from trade school school as compared to the average which is obtained across the rest of Canada; that is what I am talking about.

Before any moves are made, Sir, this hon. minister and this administration should have had a fullfledged enquiry conducted, not by a couple of university professors in education and in one small field of education at that,but a fullfledged enquiry, an investigation headed up by perhaps say professional educators certainly but with all kinds of imput from every aspect of society in Newfoundland and Labrador to determine what is wrong with our education system. What is wrong with the losing and why he curriculum? Why are young people have they lost interest in continuing on in school? Where have we gone wrong, Mr.

Speaker, as far as our education is concerned?

June 19, 1978 Tape No. 4556 NM - 1 MR. W. ROWE: But not a word said about that, Mr. Speaker, not a word by anybody, by the minister, by anyone on that side of the House, not a word, Sir, not one syllable of concern uttered about the appalling state of this situation in our Province, and the need to bring - MR. HOUSE: Appalling state of our schools? MR. W. ROWE: I am talking about the appalling state, the 40 net result of our education system. That is what I am talking about. • • • • MR. HOUSE: The net result. MR. W. ROWE: The net result. I do not care about schools.

I am concerned about the fifteen, sixteen, seventeen year olds, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Watch your blood pressure now. MR. W. ROWE: The seventeen year olds who are getting out of school for some reason or other at the grade seven or eight level, fifteen year olds, sixteen year olds. I am worried about the young people who either will not or cannot go to trade school or will not or cannot go to university, or cannot go to university, or cannot or will not graduate from grade eleven. That is what I am talking about. What is wrong with the minister, Sir? MR. NEARY: He is getting bug eyed. MR. W.

ROWE: I am not concerned about his little vested interest, whatever that may be, the bricks and lumber and mortar made to build a school, I am not concerned about that in the least, as, long as the plant is adequate, as long as the curriculum is adequate, as long as the teachers are adequate. That is what I am concerned about, all these things. As long as the net result, Mr. Speaker, from our overall education system is good and comparable to at least the rest of Canada, it should be beyond the rest of Canada by rights because we have had so many centuries of neglect in that very important area. MR.

NEARY: Hear, hear! •

• June 19, 1978 Tape No. 4556 NM - 2 • • • • • MR. W. ROWE: Now, Mr. Speaker, the minister should not get all hot-and bothered about this. He should try to do something about it. MR. NEARY: The worst Minister of Education we had in our whole history. MR. W. ROWE: Well, that may be so. We have had some good ones. We have had some bad ones. I do no know where the hon. minister will stand on the scale when history reports it. MR. NEARY: Very low. Low on the totem pole. MR. W.

ROWE: But I know this, Sir, that while our net result from our education system is so appallingly low that we should not be taking measures, which may, I do not even say will, which may have the effect of ever further adversely affecting that overall system. I say, Sir, let us have a full fledged enquiry which will cover up nothing and which will uncover everything and find out what has gone wrong, what we need to do in order to bring our system, the net result of our system.

I am talking, about the individual boys and girls, young men and young • women, Sir, what we can do to encourage them to stay in school, to encourage them to get training and further education and so on so that they can have a life of more quality than they might otherwise have whether it is economic or. otherwise. That is what I am talking about, Mr. Speaker. I do hope that the minister has perhaps changed his mind somewhat as a result of the increditable public pressure which has been brought on him over the last number of months. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Carbonear. MR. R.

MOORES: I rise to support with great privilege the petition so very ably presented by my colleague from Fortune-Hermitage. 281 parents,I presume; probably includes a few teachers but my bet is that it includes ninety-eight per cent parents. Mr. Speaker, that has been the case with the two petitions that I have presented in •

June 19, 1978 Tape No. 4556 JM - 3 MR. R. MOORES: this House on this same topic and I believe it is the case in more than three-quarters of all the petitions presented by all my colleagues on either side of the House on this topic. And that is the trend, Mr. Speaker, all over this province - parents notthe teachers, parents not the school boards, and parents not the students who are petitioning this government through their elected members to reverse this atrocious decision made by the Minister of Education on behalf of his government.

We have tried until-we are almost blue in the face. we have gotten up here in this House and told the Minister of Education, we'have mimicked, parrotted, mouthed, all the arguments affecting the student-teacher cutbacks in this Province that it will have a very negative and a very adverse and a very detrimental effect upon students, their course curriculum, the drop out rate and inevitably, Mr. Speaker, upon the economy of this Province. I have also said on previous occasions that the Minister of Education soley is not responsible for this particular policy.

He has promoted it and perpetrated it on behalf of his government but he is not solely nor is he the most aggressive defender • • •

June 19, 1978 Tape 4557 DW - 1 • MR. R. MOORES: of this particular policy. He has to uphold his end of the party line, his end of his Cabinet responsibility to his colleagues and the government and in fact to his party in this Protince. But I hay. u.narfi it soid from one end of this Province to • the other that this Minister of Education from the point of view of his credentials was supposed to be and still can be the best Minister of Education this Province has ever had. What went wrong?

Why is this minister illogically and almost irrationally supporting a policy • that is detrimental to his very professidn to the very mind-set that he' has been brought up through for the last fifteen or twenty years as a school superintendent and a supervisor of education, school principal, teacher - why: • Mr. Speaker, I am sure all of my Colleagues could go on for an hour on this topic because I believe here on this side of the House we have quite a few teachers.

Some of us, like myself,have only had minimal experience in the teaching field and • perhaps would not wave any particular banner to say that the teaching profession is my profession. But I do have enough knowledge of the profession to know,and of course enough friends in that profession to tell me that unless this government reverses, puts the lid on, flings • out this ridiculous teacher cutback policy, September 5th. or September 6th. when the schools open is going to be a day of reckoning.

I understand that the NTA through its various branch offices are starting now They were fair enough and honest, • and decent enough and responsible enough not to start the programme now that they are envisioning for September 6th. And it would not surprise me at all, Mr. Speaker, in fact I would predict that on September 6th. when the schools re-open there may not be any teachers • to teach the students. And if that occurs I say that this government and this Minister of Education deserves it.

To this point he has turned a deaf ear,a blind eye on the profession he has turned a deaf ear and a blind • eye on this House of Assembly and all of the remarks we have been

June 19, 1978 Tape 4557 RT-2 MR. R. MOORES: making, the sensible, sound-minded defences or condemnations of his defence of this programme, and he has not listened. He has turned his back on almost every public meeting in this Province apart from one or two in St. John's that he -4,as forced by shame and embarrassment to go to, and he has - Mr. Speaker, words cannot describe my feelings on the way that this Minister and his Government have acted on this particular policy. It is shameful.

It is an embarrassment particularly to the educators outside of this Province in Mainland Canada in view of our student dropout rate, in view of our educational system status, its backwardness, its awkwardness in providing training in the industrial economy of the future of this Province. It is shameful and embarassing, and I urge the Minister for the third time that I have spoken in this House, I urge the Minister, for the love of God, boy, reverse the policy, will you? Fling it out. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I support the prayer of this petition presented by the member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. J: Winsor). . This is, I believe, about the twenty-fifth petition, Sir, that has been presented in this House on the quality of education, and I think, Sir, rightly so. It is the only opportunity we have had to debate the net result of our educational - Beg your pardon! MR. LUNDRIGAN: That is all we talked about (inaudible). MR. S. NEARY: That is all we talked about. That is right, Sir. .Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend, the Leader of the Opposition, I believe, or my hon. friend from Carbonear (Mr. R.

Moores) - I am not sure which one - said the Minister had a golden opportunity to make a name for himself. Well on paper, Sir, the Minister looks good,but unfortunately in front of his Cabinet colleagues the Minister is very weak and has shown, Sir, beyond any doubt that he has succumbed, that he caved in from pressure from his colleagues and went out to do a hatchet job on education in this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, •

• • • June 19, 1978 Tape 4558 Pk - 1 Mr. Neary: my hon. colleague here was talking about the net result of our educational system. Well the net result today is, Sir, that we have the highest rate of unemployment among young people in all the ten provinces of Canada, and yet every day, Mr. Speaker, you can pick up The Evening Telegram or The Daily News especially on the weekends, and you will see all kinds of jobs advertised in this Province and jobs advertised for outside of this Province for professional people, for technical people.

And despite the fact, Sir, that we spend one-third of our Budget on education we do not have - we cannot train certain professions and technical people in this Province. we have to go outside of the Province to bring in professional people and technical people, and not only that, Sir, we have to go outside of Canada to bring people into Newfoundland where we have the highest unemployment in Canada, the highest among young people. The 50 per cent of our unemployment in this Province, Sir, is in the age bracket between sixteen and twenty-five years of age.

And yet every time you pick up The Evening Telegram you see jobs advertised. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is an indication to me that there is something wrong with our educational system. Why should we have to go off and bring in Come-From-Aways? I am told up in Toronto and Ottawa there are more jobs advertised in the Canada Manpower Centres in Toronto and Ottawa, and probably in Montreal for people to work in Newfoundland than there are in the Canada Manpower Centres here in this Province. Now how can the minister explain that? The minister runs the Manpower Training Programmes as well as the high schools. AN HON.

MEMBER: It is a shameful decision. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend says it is a shameful decision, Sir. Well I think it is. But here we had an opportunity to do something about it. We could have gone out and we could have set up an independent inquiry into our educational system in this Province- to find out why we had the highest dropout of any other • • •

June 19, 1978 Tape 4558 PK - 2 • Mr. Neary: province of Canada. Why is it our young people cannot get jobs? Are they being trained for the right things? Are we headed in the right direction in education in this Province? Are we getting the best value for our educational dollar? What about the curriculum, should it be changed? What about student aid? Should the students have to get themselves head and heels in debt before they come out of the university? What about all of these things? Mr. Speaker, it is not only the pupil-teacher ratio that is a problem here, but the whole system needs to be examined.

We need to scrutinize the whole system, and the only way to do it, Sir, is not with a couple of academics, a couple of professors over at Memorial University who have a vested interest; it should be done by the parents, by the taxpayers, by the elected representatives, and we can throw in one or two academics, not too many. They should not dominate the inquiry. I would like to see, Sir, - what about Grade XII, Mr. Speaker? Should we not have Grade XII in our high school system? The minister has already agreed that we should. So, Sir, we need an examination. We need to take stock of our whole educational system.

And, I believe, Sir, that there is still time for the minister to reconsider and wipe out this two man task force that he has appointed and set up a full-fledged independent inquiry in our whole educational system in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. the member for Grand Falls. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr.

Speaker, at the risk of being personally abused again I will have another word on this particular petition, because I believe this is one of the more useful petitions or types of petitions, said some time ago,that has been presented because it has allowed the House for the first time in recent years to focus on the question of education which frequently gets overlooked except for the estimate period, and it is very useful, and I do not know if we will ever get a complete conclusion from the minister on what steps he would like to take, but I believe that it will help the minister to sort of make up his mind on what he will accept from the task force when it does report.

June 19, 1978 Tape 4558 PK - 3 MR. LUNDRIGAN: I have had one concern that I have tried to highlight and that is the business of the dropout rate or the retention rate, the business of the fact that we have only a third of our students who start Kindergarten and complete school. And consequently one- third of our students,according to Dr.

Art Sullivan, 34 per cent of the students who started Kindergarten in 1964 successfully completed Grade Xl, not completed, successfully completed Grade XI, and that is about half of the level of retention that you have in the Province: of Ontario, and the Province of British Columbia, and the Province of Alberta. And that is a critical problem. I have raised the question about the university in terms of the foundation year,whether it would not be better for us to reassess our commitment to

June 19, 1978 Tape 4559 EC - 1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: the foundation year and look at the reinforcement 'of the secondary school system with that kind of expenditure. I raise the question about the Medical School at Memorial,which this year will drain $8 million from the provincial Treasury at a time when we will be producing doctors for export from this very poor Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the point that sort of bothers me more than anything is I just listened to the Leader of the Opposition stand in his place today and give a five minute dissertation on his great commitment to Education in this Province, his great commitment to having the pupil-teacher ratio reduced to twenty-five to one. That is a core issue, a core concern. He belittled the minister whom he said is only concerned with the mortar and the bricks and the physical plant and he is worried about programmes and young children and drop-outs and the like. Mr.

Speaker, six years ago when the present leader left the Cabinet and left the Assembly, there was a thirty-five to one ratio in the Province. I believe at that time he and his father, who was then the Minister of Education, were pretty prominent in the field of Education. Thirty-five to one was the pupil- teacher ratio at the time. Now they are belittling the minister because it is not twenty-five to one. At the same time, Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY• Rubbish. Character assassination! MR. LUNDRIGAN: Would you shut up! . Mr. Speaker, would you shut up that member? I am on the issue, not on character assassination.

I am suggesting that if I were able to use the term 'political hypocrisy' it would very well categorize the statements which were made, Mr. Speaker, here in this

• June 19, 1978 Tape 4559 EC - MR. LUNDRIGAN: House today. Thirty-five to one six years ago, twenty-six to one today and this Leader of the Opposition gets up and talk about his great concern about the downgrading of the education system and I am supposed to believe it as a Newfoundlander. MR. SPEAKER: (Dr.Collins) Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR.

SPEAKER: I would remind hon. members that during petitions, interjections are out of order and should not be pursued, and also that the material allegation in the committee can be discussed but that debate should not be entered into, that is, taking points that have already bee'n alluded to and taking an opposite view of them and commenting on them. I think the comments should be concerned • with the material allegations of the petition. The hon. the member for Grand Falls. MR. SIMMONS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker has well taken care of the matter of the vicious personal attacks. I will not get into that aspect, but there is another important issue, • Mr. Speaker, which is being abused by the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan). It is a well understood fact, indeed, Mr. Speaker ruled on the matter just a few days ago that when one is speaking at this particular juncture • he ought to be speaking in support of a petition.

Now it is clear, apart from the fact he is entering into a debate with my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, and setting himself up in the contrary position, the opposite position, it is clear that he must be against the petition. There can be no doubt about that, that he is against the petition. • • S

June 19, 1978 Tape 4559 IB-3 MR. SIMMONS: Now I would love to hear his views at the appropriate time in debate somewhere but this is not the appropriate time, Mr. Speaker. He is abusing the rules of the House and he should take his seat and at the appropriate time give us the benefit of his views. But they are obviously contrary to the petition. That is very clear, Mr. Speaker.

And I think if we could expedite the business of the House and get on with the Question Period without having people getting up and speaking against the petition it would serve the interests of all concerned and particularly the people who presented the petition looking to members like the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) to support it,not to talk against it, Mr. Speaker, support it if he wants to. MR. LUNDRIGAN: On that point of order, Your Honour. First of all, Mr. Speaker, I am amazed that anyone would accuse me of being personal in my presentation. I have been totally on the issue.

But on that point of order, I have spoken about seven times in this House so far on the petition on education always concerning myself very sincerely with the quality of education, with the programme and with the pupil-teacher ratio. There is no indication on my part here today that I spoke against the petition. I tried to broaden the arena of debate a little bit and this is what I spoke on. Now if you are talking about the heat and getting out of the kitchen, Mr. Speaker, the minute anyone differs from that clique on the other side there is something abnormal about the member on this side.

We are supposed stay here, sweat it out, be abused all day long by this hon. colleagues across the way. We •

June 19, 1978 Tape 4559 18-4 MR. LUNDRIGAN: cannot get up and express an opinion, differ not at all, Mr. Speaker, or there is something wrong with the members on this side of the House. . MR. SIMMONS: Sit down, boy. MR. LUNDRIGAN: And that belligerent member, Mr. Speaker, who spoke sixteen hours on one bill should be the last one to talk about relevancy of debate in this legislature. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! • • • •

• June 19, 1978, Tape 4560, Page 1 apb MR. SPEAKER (Collins): The issue is one of support for a petition and as a ruling was made a few: days ago, the measure of support may vary considerably between members and in my recollection the hon. member who rose ' did indicate initially his support for the petition. He did comment on certain features which may haVe indicated his support was in a different direction that other forms of support but I do not think, I would say, he wandered outside the guidelines which we have accepted by prededent for petitions. I might also point out that his time has now elapsed.

Is the hon. member speaking on the petition? AN HON. MEMBER: Oh yes. MR. NEARY: The member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) will allow my colleague - MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point or order. MR. SPEAKER (Collins): A point of order. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, as I was about to rise to speak to the petition but was not recognized at that point so I am on a point of order at the moment, the member for Grand Falls said that he could see the reason for my previous point of order. Now, if he knows some reasons, Mr. Speaker, let him tell the House. He cannot sit over there and assign all kinds of motives.

My reason was simple and it was stated, Mr. Speaker; the member was abusing the rules of the House, He was using the opportunity to get a few shots off whilst speaking against a petition. Now that is against the rules of the House. As a member of this House, Mr. Speaker, it is my responsibility to draw to Mr. Speaker's attention any occasion when a member is abusing the rules of the House, and I did that, Mr. Speaker. And by exercising my right and my obligation to the Chair, •

June 19, 1978, Tape 4560, Page 2 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: I do not want to be abused by the member for Grand Falls who then assigns a reason as to why I rose. I tell him. I tell him why I rose; I rose because he was abusing the rules of the House and it was my obligation to draw it to the attention of Mr. Speaker. That is my point of order, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER -(Collins): Order, please! I think that one need not pursue this too much further.

The comment in question was not audible to the Chair, but even if it were I do not think the comment was.such that the Chair would have to make a ruling on it. It was presumably a belief that a member has and the Chair cannot rule in terms of beliefs. Are there further petitions? MR. SIMMONS: I rise to support the petition, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Collins): The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d' Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: And in so doing I say to the member for Grand Falls that certainly the Chair on any occasion can prevent a member from questioning the motives of a member and that was my point of order. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. LUNDRIGAN: That is twice in a row now. MR. SIMMONS: It might be twice in a row, Mr. Speaker. I will do it ten times in a row if I have to. I am not having the sometimes member for Grand Falls accuse me of improper motives and I expect the protection of the Chair on that particular matter, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Collins): Order, please! I do have to point out that in rising in support of a petition the comments should be confined to the statement in the petition, the number of

June 19, 1978, Tape 4560, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER (Collins): signatures and a comment, • perhaps, on the statement made by the original petitioner. The hon. member for Burgeo - .Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I • certainly hope, Mr. Speaker, that the member who can count to three - he has just proven that he can count to three - I would hope he just heard Mr. Speaker admonition • about sticking to the subject under discussion. 40 The number of petitioners, Mr.

Speaker, 281; the places involved, Gaultois, Seal • Cove, Hermitage; the subject, education cutbacks; the prayer,stated in other words but the prayer, that the 11 Minister of Education would start earning his salary. MR. HOUSE: No, that is not the same prayer. MR. SIMMONS: That the Minister of Education would start earning his salary, that is the prayer. MR. HOUSE: That is not in there. MR. SIMMONS: That is the prayer, Mr.

Speaker, that the Minister of Education, at least, would do the • teachers and parents of this Province the courtesy of a letter that makes some sense instead of the form letter for which he got rapped over the knuckles at Holy Heart a few weeks ago, the same form letter the Premier himself • was sending out. A form letter, Mr. Speaker, on this subject of flexibility-- the prayer of the petition - which says in part, the form letter the minister and the Premier send out, "I should point out however, that the reduction is in • accordance with the decline in student enrollment in the Province," and other things.

That is what the letter says. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have nothing against form letters if they told the truth, but when they tell direct untruths that is another issue.

June 19, 1978, Tape 4560, Page 4 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr. Speaker, the 128 . teaching positions. The, minister knows and I know and others around this Province know that off these 128, Mr. Speaker, 54 of them •

J.ne 19,1978 Tape No. 4561 AH-1 MR SIMMONS: would have disappeared,I understand,if the government had not cut back fifty-four, which means, Mr. Speaker, that seventy four would not have. Now I ask the minister to contradict me • • on that one if he can. Seventy-four of the positions would still be there, Mr. Speaker, if the minister and his buddies had not taken this very regressive step. Now in the light of that, Mr.

Speaker, why is the minister in dozens and dozens of form letters - and I say to the minister I got most of them back because every day I get three or four in the mail from people who are very, very disgusted with the minister for not only doing something-that is unpopular'and ill-advised but something that is untruthful too. He writes and tells them that the reduction is in accordance with the decline in the student enrollment. That is partly true and he is playing with words.

About one third of it or something of that nature, fifty-four is in accordance with the decline in student enrollments and the other seventy-four is not. Now why is the -minister spreading this untruth all around the Province? Why is he spreading it, Mr. Speaker? Using his office, the office of the Minister of Education to spread that untruth among teachers and parents and the Premier is party to the crime with him, Mr. Speaker, spreading that blataLt untruth around this Province. that the move, the reduction is in accordance with the decline in student enrollment. MR. HICKMAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order. MR. HICKMAN: It is totally and absolutely out of order for any hon. gentleman to say that a minister of the Crown is blatantly spreading untruth around the Province. It is absolutely untrue, It not only indicates motive, it is the sort of thing that you would not even find in a beer garden even if there were no rules, even if we had to go on the rules of decency. But fortunately we do have parliamentary rules that protect us . That kind of thing would not be uttered by anyone who subscribed to the rules of decency. MR.W.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: Hon. Leader of the Opposition.

June 19,1978 Tape No. 4561 AH-2 AR. W.ROWE: Sir, it is well known,.

I do not have the citations from Beauchesne in front of me now, but if we are going to get into a fullfledged debate on this very important point of order, Sir, because it is important, Sir, we can certainly look up the various references— but, Sir, it is well known certainly by -every member of this House,or at least it should be and it is certainly known by Your Honour,that although it is very,extremely unparliamentary to call a minister or a member a' liar or dishonest or to use that kind of a characterization, very unparliamentary, it is not unparliamentary to say that what a minister has said was not true or inaccurate or not exact.

MR. SIMMONS: Even stunned 'Alec' knows that. MR.W.ROWE: It is not unparliamentary to say that .a statement-of. a minister is not true. It is not unparliamentary to say that a statement uttered by a minister was not the true state of facts or was not the truth. Only, Sir, when the minister's honesty, honour and so on are brought into play, Sir, does it become unparliamentary. There was no attempt on the part of my hon. friend and colleague to say that the minister was a liar or that he was dishonest.

He was simply saying that the minister's statement contained in a letter was not true, it was untrue and that this untruth was being spread throughout the land, Sir. And I would submit,Sir, that there is nothing unparliamentary in that kind of a statement. • HR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: AR. SIMMONS: • Order, please! I am speaking to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order. I think, Mr. Speaker, it is reasonably clear what was doing.

I was choosing very carefully my language to be parliamentary and at the same time convey to the House that what the minister is telling the people of the Province in his form letter is untrue and that is clearly parliamentary. If something is untrue.it is untrue and I demonstrated, S Mr. Speaker, by entering the figures that it is untrue. There is no question about it that the minister when he says that the reduction is in accordance with the decline in enrollment is not telling the truth. It is blatantly untrue. Now whether he does it deliberately I have not said but he is doing it, Mr.

Speaker, in form letter after form letter after hundreds •

June 19,1978 Tape No. 4561 AH-3 MR. SIMMONS: of form letters despite the fact that he was rapped on the knuckles for this point at Holy Heart at a well attended meeting two or three or four weeks ago. He is spreading blatant untruth that is my point, Mr. Speaker, and I submit I have said that in very, very parliamentary terms because I choose my terms well because that is what I wanted to convey,that he is saying untrue statements to the people of the Province inform letters, hundreds and hundreds of form letters. MR. HICKMAN: I just want to direct Your Honour's attention to paragraph - MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, he spoke once. :gt; HICK•AN: Imagine,he spoke once. He spoke once, Mr. Speaker. I did, I spoke once but I am now going to,with the indulgence of Mr. 40 Speaker, speak again and draw - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! For clarification - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! For clarification,it is well recognized that the Chair may entertain arguments in assisting a ruling and in doing so although there is no set pattern,it is customary to allow a fairly

0 0 • June 19, :1978 Tape 4562 ID-1 MR. SPEAKER: equal number of comments from both sides of the House. The hon. House leader. MR. HICKMAN: I am most grateful, Mr. Speaker, for the assistance of the Chair. I would like to draw Your Honour's attention,to paragraph 155 (3). There are certain statements that are not parliamentary as set forth there. One is that it is unparliamentary to tell a member that he went about the country telling palpable lies. Two, that a Minister has stated what he knew not to be correct.

And in looking at both of these may I point out that the hon. gentleman for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir (Mr.Simmons) when chastizing the Minister of Education for a letter at one point said that the hon. the Premier is condoning or the word 'crime' was mentioned. Now Your Honour has to,I submit lin deciding whether or not statements and innuendos are parliamentary or unparliamentary very carefully ascertain the context in which they were said and not some carefully worded sneaky little statement. MR. W. ROWE: To the point of that, Mr. Speaker, very briefly. MR. SPEAKER: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. W.

ROWE: Sir, the whole point - I do not know what is wrong with the government House leader, Sir. The whole point of what preceded his latest outburst on this point of order, Sir, is contained in

section 155 or paragraphy 155 or 130, Sir. The whole point is that he did not say that the minister went about the country telling lies, palpable or otherwise. What he said was that the minister's statement was untrue. MR. HICKMAN: lie said letters which are untrue. MR. W. ROWE: Yes letters whiCh are untrue. Nobody is saying, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. minister is 0

June 19, 1978 Tape 4562 IB-2 MR. W. ROWE: • • • • • deliberately spreading untruths or that he is deliberately telling lies or anything else. The statements are untrue, are factually incorrect. The minister may in fact believe what he is doing to be true or be a fact or to be accurate. That is not the point. The point is that the statement made by my hon. colleague is that the letters contain untrue statements, factually incorrect statements. That •at most, Sir, is a difference of opinion between two hon. members.

And you notice as you go through paragraph 155 that the, statements which were made by my hon. colleague are not anywhere in that paragraph noted or mentioned as being unparliamentary. As a matter of fact, Sir, the language which has been characterized as unparliamentary is language which in every case goes far beyond in imputation and assigning of motives and assigning of dishonourable conduct or telling lies or falsehoods, Sir. It goes far beyond anything uttered by my hon. friend. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have heard representation from both sides and I thank hon. members.

I will not cite Beauchesne to any great extent but I think a few citations are necessary to clarify this. On page 130 in my editiOn,

section 154, subsection (5) it says, "It is not unparliamentary to say that a statement is untrue, but it is unparliamentary to say that it was untrue to the knowledge of the member addressing the House." And as hon. members pointed out another part there it says that ,"To tell a member that he went around the country telling palpable lies." My recollection is that the hon. member said that certain statements in a letter being circulated were untrue but that he did not say that they were untrue to the knowledge

June 19, 1978 Tape 4562 IB-3 • • • MR. SPEAKER: of the hon'. member nor that they were lies.'Palpable lies;I think is different from saying an untruth. So on that score I think one can say that no unparliamentary word was uttered. On the other hand,I think one can refer to Beauchesne,

section 155, subsection (2) where in

part it says that he acted basely and from base motives. My recollection is that the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) equated the action with a crime and I would have to rule therefore that a crime is equivalent to acting basely. So I would ask the hon. member if he would withdraw the imputation that a crime was committed in carrying out this. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the word 'crime' is a vernacular we use very often to say something is a pitiful crime. I think what is being done is a crime against the youngsters, not in the criminal cold sense of the term but it is certainly a crime.

That was the context in which I used it. If we want to narrow the useage of the term I will withdraw it if it makes everybody happy, Mr. Speaker, if it is unparliamentary. But of course any native born Newfoundlander knows fully well that the term 'crime' is often used, Mr. Speaker, when something that is not very palatable is going on, a crime against youngsters, it is a real crime what you are doing. It was in that context I used it, Mr. Speaker. If that offends the House in any way I withdraw it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I understand the hon. member has withdrawn any imputation of criminal act or crime in the legal sense. • • • The hon. member's time, I am afraid, has elapsed.

• June 19, 1978 Tape 4563 PK - 1 • MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present another petition, assuming that everybody who wanted to speak has spoken. Does the minister intend to speak on that petition? MR. HOUSE: That is right. MR. CALLAN: If so, I can bow and present mine after, Mr. Speaker. SOME'HON. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave: AN HON. MEMBER: The minister wants to speak. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Will we revert to the previous petition by leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): By leave. The hon. Minister of Education. MR.

HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I just want to say a few words to the petition, I guess everybody can support a petition that asks that the education quality be not tampered with, and I do not think it has in this particular case.

There are, ,I think,in that particular district three teachers being laid off as a result of declining enrollments, incidentially,because the letter was telling exactly the truth,was in line with the policy of the government because we had said that we would not take teachers away in the implementation period, and , of course, the implementation period had passed and we did not see where we were able to bring in the one to twenty-five ratio at that time. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. HOUSE: Yes. The other thing that I want to point out, of course , I spoke from a form letter and I want to say too, Mr.

Speaker, at that particular time that I was not castigated in that meeting for sending out a form letter. I think there was some other reference to other people, but it was not to me. The fact was I replied by a form letter to the form letters that I had from teachers all over the Province. Exactly that is what happened, and I could not sit down and write individua