Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, DECEMBER 22, 1975 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 22

Dece ber 22, 1975. T11e House. met at 3:00 p.m. Hr. S?eaker in the Chair. Tt pe 851 RH - 1 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FCR \•1JUCH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: ~. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Justice. HON. A. HICKMAN: Mr. Speake:r, in answer to question No. 99 on the Order Paper of NovemhP.r 24, 1975 asked bY the hon. the member for Twillingate 01t". SmaJlwood): That question is more properly directed to the SoJicltor General of Canada. M'R. SPEAKER: The hon. "finister of Forestry and Agriculture. RON • J • ROUSSEAU : Mr.

Speaker, I have the replies to questions Nos. 270, 271, 272, 274, 275, 280 and 293 for ~he hon. the member from Twillingate (~ ' r. Smallwood) . They at"e the J ast Cllle-s before Christmas. I am going to r,ive my staff a Christmas holj~ay nnw. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question, Sir, to the ~Unister of Tourism.

In view of the fact that there seems to be a dark cloud now over this Cabot Group 4 situation, would the minister undertake to table all correspondence and all details in relation to any work or contracts that have been done, given by his department to this Cabot Group · 4 advertising agenc y or whRtever it is? NR. . SPEAKER : The hon. minister of Tourism. !JON. T. HICKEY: .:Mr.

Speaker, I do not want to set any new precedent but I am certainly prepared to take the notice of the question,and in saying that let me assure the House there is no reason and there is certainly nothing to prevent documents from being tabled. I ~,rill take it under adv:i,sement. ~!R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. HR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: Would the minister indicate in what time period he would do this? Hill he do it before the House adjourns until 'February,or will we have to wait until February before we get the infon\lation? 2208

December 22, 1975. Tape 851 RH - 2 HR. HICKFY: Well, Hr. Speaker, that is like asking me when the House is going to adjourn. I do not know. But certainly the first thing I should do in relation to this because,obviously~one does not table, every time the Opposition asks for documents to be tabled one does not necessarily respond. I should consult my colleagues on this matter. As I said and I repeat there is no reason why, certainly nothing to prevent us from tabling the documents. But I certainly do not want to respond in the affirmative and set any new precedent. HR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, - MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. HR. NEARY: Go ahead, 1 John ·~ HR. NOLAN: I can wait. r.rn.. NEARY: No, no, p.;o ahead. "fR. NOLAN : llr. Speaker, a question for the J1inister of Mines and Energy in reference to 1•lahanex and their intention to store oil or crude under Conception Bay: What studies, if any, are available to indicate what tests have been made in reference to pollution or the danger of pollution to Conception BayZ Would he or one of his ministers be willing to table such studies? MR. SPE.t\l..'ER: The hon. Minister of 11ines and Ener)!;y. RON. J. CRO~ BIE: :1-'r.

Soeaker, I would have to take that question as notice. Of course, the Pm?er Corporation of Canada is now studying the whole proposal ann has to put in a proposal-or has to put in a report and a part of that report, of course, would be as to the environmental effects for the safety of the whole operation and that would he covered in the report. As to what studies there are presently available I would have to check on that. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister of Provincial Affairs~who is responsible for consumer affairs, Sir, indicate to the House how many recommendations of the ~ood Prices Review Board Report, November, 1q74 have been implemented to date? How many recommendations of the Food Prices Review Board Report, November, 1974 have been implemented by the Provincial Government? 2209

nece mber 22, 1~75. Tape 851 RH - 3 1R . Sl' E~: The hon. R!.nister cf Provincial Affairs and Ep.vironment. TION. A. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, in answer to that question I would say every recommendation that is available within the jurisdiction of .my department has been put into force. I d.o no<: know if there are any that we did not do. Jlut we are doing everything within our power. I think the House must be at•are, they are purely an investigative and information department because we have no jurisdjction in any way to establish prices or roll back prices, anything like this.

We work very closely with the :Pedera1 Department of Consumer Affairs and basically I feel that in the last recent weeks particularly 1 think we have been very active in consumer affairs as evidenced by the many dozens of calls that we have received by telephone. I am very happy to say, Sir, that in conversation with- if I may at this time- with radio stations in Corner Brook yesterday that the matter we brou~ht forward about the cost of gasol1 .ne in Corner Brook, the prices have now gone hack, as far as I understand, because of the opening of a self-service station there and this has had the effect.

We do not want to take all the credit but we think to some extent the Department of Cons'g!l!er Affairs has some responsib llity for affecting that cha.Dge. ~o/.. 1\TfARY: Hr. Speaker, I am dis - 22i0

necem1)er 22, 1975 Tape 852 Ill-1 MR. NEARY: s"ti.r<fiecl vith that ansHer, Sir, and I wis1l to debate it on Tlmrsc1ay next, MR. NOLAN: He lost the paper. }IJ'. }!!JRPHY: 1 <7i]1 see you :<t l""idnight Mass. l'r. ~pe11J.:er, in view of tl1e fact that, Sir, that - I presume, "r.

Speaker, th~t '!bursr1ay after the House reconvenes we ,.,;]]_ be ah]e t" c1ehate this matter - in vieF of the fact, Sir, that the House may M1journ today C>r tomorrm·l ,,,ould the l'injster of Touris111 tell 11s v1hat t.:ime we are go:inr, to get the J.onr overdue snm.'l!lobile rP~>,ulations? 11 '"P f:PF..AKE"P: The hon. ><in:ister of 'T'ourism. '"' JT1 f'KEY : 1"r. Speaker, the hon. ~entlem11n 's question is rather timely because just today there is a group of interested parties representing various org11nizaUons and regions of the Province meeting in St.

John's- I th:i.nk their meetings have concluded,in fact -who have had an opportunity to tal-e a final look at the proposed regulations. 'Jhatever changes are recornmenclec1 by those people ~riJ 1 be cons :I c'lerecl and put in the form of a white pe1per and that paper will be issuecl. I c:lo not th:i.nk 5 t has to wait for the House to resul".e to be issued. It wHl proh<1hly be distributed to the press, to members of the House and to interested part:i.es throughout the Province. YT'. NEAT'Y: The Winter will not be over before we ~et the regulations? ''1'. HICYIT: T hope not, l'r.

Spealcer, hut that c:1oes not mean tha.t the regulations can become effective this year because, for example, one of the regulations covers licensing of those vehicles and we have knmm for <juite some time tl,at that is not possible this year. ''n. SPEN<EP.: 'T'he bon. mem'>er for Conception Bay South (l'r. No] an) . l"T'. NnT.AN: Pr. Speaker, on the same subject,H I may. Is the minister a~mre at the mmnent that an e:!ght year old chilcl can drive a forty l'orsepower snowmobile? Surely we can bring in such a law to prevent this? Is that possihJe clo you think? ).·~. r.r.OSBIE: no you me :on can or may? tm.

HH~KJ'Y : trr. NOL.AN: Yes, Yr. Speaker - Can, may -both. 2211

l'ecemher 22, 1975 '!'.•pe 1'52 I11-2 ,.,., lUCY ·Y: There ho:ls ce>t:tainJ y heen exampl e.s of this where vehi r-les lu~ve gone out of control, ;m eiftht or nine yellr old child has ro]J eel off the vehicle,and this is all the more reason ~my that we are pressing to have the regulations put i.nto effect. I can assure the hon. gentleman that there ~s a regulation coverinp, this and when they no heeome effective certainly that "dll be lmlawful. There will he- a pretty stiff penalty for the people resronsible for that chil~~ or l•7hoever might he operating ,if they are under the age which 1 s required. The hon.

Leader of the Opposition. .., . rrmr.rTS: ·r. , neake rr, n c-uest i on to the hon . Ninister of Tourism that is by w•y of almost being a supplementary t.o the one asked by my friend from Conception Bay South (¥r. Nolan). Since the minister is aware of the fact, and since the government has the authority to net wHl he bring: in the rule immediately that no child may crive one of these snovmmbiles? The government have the le!!,:f sJ ative autl' .OT:! ty~ as J unc1erstand :ft~cmd nobody surely would defend the practice.

Hell is there anythin!!: to prevent the government frorn acting no~1,to pass the Order-in-Council :1ust s1.mply to 111ake :tt unlawful for a chHCI ,sav below· the ape of fj fteen or sixteen ,to clr:f.ve one of these mac:h:f.nes. t'P. SPE/.KE'P.: The hon, "in:i ster of Tourism. ~.,.. ~IICIUlY: ''r.

Speaker, that j s a very valid point and I can inform the Leader of the Opposition that just today I c'!iscussecl with my officials the possi.hiJ ity of imp]ernen .ting certain reguJ at :tons with rep:ari's to safety. rertainly this could he a very <'lppropriate one ,..hich could very welJ beco!T'P- effectJvP- before the licens:t .ng and the more compJ i cntec1 matters Ctre sorte<" out. I personally see no reason •rl1y thl'lt cnnnot ,e c'fone. lle ~·>:!lJ certainly encleavour to s.ee t1' nt :it i.F<. I thanl: the hon. p,entJeTl\8n, ~·r.

Speaker. t•!oulc'! the minister undertake to ra1se the matter l~ith !tis colleagues at a very 2212

December 22, 1975 Tape 852 IB - 3 Mr. Roberts: early time with a view of getting immediate action? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I certainly will and I will do it on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Sir, tell the House if the government are getting together a delegati 1 on to head for Norway sometime in the early New Year? MR. ROBERTS: Take Wick Collins with them. MR. NEARY: What will be the purpose of their visit and who will be going on this delegation to Norway? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, you know, we have no firm information at the moment. The bon. the Premier is in the Grace General Hospital at the mowent and will not be going anywhere. So we just have to wait to get the answer to that. AN HON. MEJ-IBER: Is Wick Collins going to be a part of the delegation? MR. CROSBIE: Wick Collins is an expert and he could easily go there. MR. MURPHY: He is going to be the chief pilot. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Conception Bay South. HR. NOLAN: Mr.

Speaker, in reference to an earlier question,if I may, to the Minister of Provincial Affairs who is responsibJe for r.onsuwer Affairs and in reference to the Prices Peview Board reco~~endations. If there were ten recommendations, about two of them~I understand,applied maybe to federal action. There were seven or eight that required provincial action. One was on warehousing, the type of brokerage that we have in Newfoundland as opposed to other provinces. It was indicated that this was responsible for some of the prices we have.

Has the minister or his officials attempted to look into this and what, if any, action do they contemplate? The hon . Minister of Provincial Affairs. 2213

December 22, 1975 Tape No. 853 N}l - 1 ~lR. 1-!URPHY : I can only say the same thing as I answered the other question, Sir. It is all with regard to the report on the Consumer Affairs area and I can only say that as far as we are concerned we have done everything within our power, as far as I know, If there are any other things we have not done we will be only too happy to hear from any member of the House or anybody else . ~~- · SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. }~. ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, we are not short of time so, a question for the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations.

Has the minister received any representations from some of the men at Labrador City who have silicosis and are forced to travel back and forth to St. John's for medical checkups, representations with ~espect to the amounts which they receive to enable them to pay their travel claims? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. MAYNARD: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not received any representations from anyone in Labrador City on that particular matter. rm. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I only got the last half of the minister's answer. MR. MAYNARD: I said I have not received any representation, Mr.

Speaker, from anyone in Labrador City on that particular matter. }!R. ROBERTS: Well, 1-'r. Speaker, I have received representations. I will send them to the minister and I think his colleague, the han. gentleman from }'enihek (~{r. Ttousseau) also has received them. Would the minister undertake to look into this matter with a view to having the complaint investigated and if appropriate have it remedied1 MR. MAYNARD: Sure! }ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the acting Premier why the unions in Buchans were ignored when the government was establishing a task force to look into local government for the community of Buchans, why it was a government-company-task force and not employee or union­ government-company, why the unions were ignored1 2214

December 22, 1975 Tape no. 853 Page 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations to comment on that. I am not aware of a task force being appointed to look into local government. There is a task force looking into the future of Buchans but the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations (Mr. Maynard) could better answer the question. ~m. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, when the task force was set up the unions were represented.

As a matter of fact the Vice-President of the union in Buchans is on the task force, the main body of the task force,and the task force itself recommended to me as to who should serve on the sub-committee on local government. Certainly the union representative was in on that decision and I said okay to the people that they recommended to me. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Industtial Development.

In reference to the unemployment situation in Newfoundland which is expected to get worse, what programmes does he or the government now have on the drawing boards to provide employment in the next twelve months in Newfoundland, how many jobs are anticipated, and can he provide us with any information on any such projects? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, it would be impossible for me to give a meaningful comment on that type of question during the Question Period. MR. NOLAN: Will you take notice of it and answer it sometime? MR.

LUNDRIGAN: I will answer it now if you come in, 'John~ and have a discussion on it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Municipal Aff•trs care to clear up the situation in Wesleyville concerning the water and sewer project proposed for that community and the dissatisfaction expressed today by the Town Council in Wesleyville? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take it as notice. I am not aware of any dissatisfaction. MR. NEARY: Listen to the news. 2215

n ~cemher 22, 1975 Tape ~o . 853 - 3 •rr.. PECKFORD: T rave r.;ot a lot 1110re valuable things to do than J iF; ten to the n~vs all the time, ~r. Speaker. :'!tl. NEA!1.Y_: ~-l r. Speaker, 100uld the :Minister of F:l.sheries tell us if in fact it is the temperature of the t-.rater that is causini!: all the mackeral to die and ~vash ashore in various parts of Newfoundland1 SO?-If. HON. !lf.HBERS: Oh! flh! 11R. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, would the minister care to tell us •Jhat is happening to the mackeral? !!ll.. _W • .f_~TER: I have no information on that, Nr. Speaker. "R.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. ''ll. NOLAN:_' A question to the ~linister of Tourism, Where will the Norma ana Gladys spend Christmas and is it rec ei.vjn~ guests? ~"'-· 'RICKEY: ~·r. Speaker, tl:at is almost like the series '·Another World.' Tune in for the next time. I am not 'luite sure, lfr. Speaker, I have come to the conclusion that I should not necessarily keep such accurate information or track of the visits or the ports of call. It could very well be Barbados or Antigua, one or the other. 2216

December 22, 1975 Tape 854 MW- 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister of Mines and Ener~y, Sir, before he dashes out of the House, tell us how bi~ the discovery of jade is on the Great Northern Peninsula, near St . Anthony? Would the minister care to brin~ the House up-to-date on this discovery and tell us if it is going to be beneficial to Newfoundland, if it is there in commercial quantities, and if the ~overnment will be setting up an industry there? MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE : Mr.

Speaker, I do not mind taking that question as notice, but I do not think this jade discovery is somethin~ new. I will have to look into it. I do not think we need expect a fantastic iade industrv in the immediate,near future. The hon. gentleman has been jading this House for about five weeks now, Mr. Speaker, and I am getting very 1aded myself, but I will check into this jade discovery. If it amounts to anything we might share it between us or whatever. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. minister jaded everybody in Newfoundland the other night on television. MR . MURPHY: ~. NEARY: That is not so.

I think he was outstanding. ~ir, would the same minister care to tell the House about the possibility of a new mining operation in the Gull I.ake area? "'R. CROSBIE: In what area? :'IR. NEARY: He has not done his homework , Sir . "'R. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: I ~~ill have to check into this new discovery, '1r. Speaker. vlhat area? MR. NEARY: The Gull Lake area. MR. CROSBIE: Gull Lake. It mav be guano, Mr. Sneaker. MR. NEARY: Vlhat about asbestos? What about the new discovery of asbestos?

Does the minister know anything about that or is he too busv with the other jobs in his portfolio? 2217

December 22, 1975 Tape no. 854 Page 2 - mw MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, is there any other mineral he can think of to ask one of these questions on? MR. NEARY: These are all new discoveries! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. HR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Hines and Energy, before he escapes, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister be good enough to tell us of the energy produced for electrical power and heat in Newfoundland, how much does Newfoundland Hydro produce as opposed to, for example, what the Newfoundland Light and Power provide for themselves? UR.

SPEAKER: TI1e hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. ~IR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I went to the trouble to table in this honourable House last week ten or twelve copies of a document that showed the total amount of power generated in Newfoundland in the year 1974. I believe it also showed what was generated by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and what was generated by CFLCo and what was generated by Newfoundland Light and Pm~er and so on. So that information, I do not have it right at hand now, but it has already been tabled here. Now I may also have something further here, but I have to look tnrough my notes.

Anyway the information has been tabled. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister of Justice, Sir, tell the House if he intends to act on a suggestion made by one of his employees, Magistrate Luther,recently when he spoke to the St. John's Northwest Rotary Club that he thought Newfoundland should have an all-year-round advertising campaign to help crack down on drunk drivers? Would the minister also react to the magistrate's suggestion that there should be more breathalizers in Newfoundland? _}ffi. ~OODY: While you are at it, take the Norma and Gladys.

She also keeps people off the roads. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I cannot react to it, because I am not familiar, and I was totally unaware of the statement made by the learned 2218

December 22, 1975 TApe no. 854 Page Mr • Hiclmnan. magistrate. I saw where the learned magistrate made a very fine speech in which he made the statement that I have made 3 - mw so often in the House that fifty per cent of the deaths on the highway are attributed to - at least fifty per cent, - impaired motorists and that he felt that the Parliament of Canada were moving in the right direction as they seek to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to increase the fines. These things I saw. The other I did not see or hear, and I will certainly read it avidly, quickly and with enthusiasm. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, could I elaborate on my answer to the second last question? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: The table is filed here somewhere, but I have just come across it now. In 1974 the net energy firm and secondary generated by Newfoundland and Labrador Corporation was 2,663,000,000 kilowatt hours, leavin~ out the thousands, and the Newfoundland Light and Power generated 390,000,000 kilowatt hours. Bowater Power, 857,000,000; Price, 291,000,000; for a total on the Island of 4,202,000,000.

In Labrador, Churchill Falls generated 23,000,000,000 kilowatt hours; Twin Falls 1,000,000,000; Mehihek Power, 112,000,000 for a total in Labrador of 24,490,000,000. The total generated on the Island and Labrador was 28,692,000,000 of which there was exported from the Province 22,000,000,000. 2219

nece'mber 2;1, 1?75 MR . CROSBIE: Tnpe RSS Ill-1 But there is a tahle that r,ives all the cletailR l1ere somewhere. The clerk h;,s it. MR. NEARY: ~ ·'r. Speaker, coulcl the ~:lniRter of l<'anpm~er, Sir, hr:lng us up to elate on the labour situation :In the Province now, especially as :It relates to the paper industry- pulp and paper :industry- to ::;t. La.~·rrence, l ·~aterford Hospital ancl Exon J~ouse? _...:.....:::.c;:;;=!':...· l':_:_: T!Je hon. !":ln:!.ster. of ~<anpower (!<r, Maynard). )'r.

Spea~·er, in relation to the paper str:!ke first, ,.,e have hetc ll'eetings ~~jth the un:lon on Saturflay, the un:lon colP.I:li.ttees in Corner Brook, these rommittees from all three mills, where we r1iscussed the recent Anti-infla.tion Board ruling in the case of the Trv:fng m:!H in '(ew Rrunstorick. l·le were look:l.ng at the possibility or exploring with the un:lon the possib:ll:!ty of having negotiations rPsumecl. 1?e h"'cl hop('n to meet w:lth the company hea<ls this moroing but clue. to ~o>eather on the Hest Coast and r.entra1 Ne~-rfoundland area they pl--on.ecl !"e and ask eel !l'e if the meeting could be postponed.

I 1milerstancl that some negotiat:lons may be making place between the Pr:f.ce unions and the company in Grand Falls this afternoon and tomorro~•. "'he St. I.a1•'Tence dispute is the same no"t>r as it ~·ras a few clays ar:o ,,,hen they rP.jecteil the latest company offer. TJe have heen ~and continue to J,e ,in con tact with the union and the company to see 5f t!-rere <1re any possih.:il:lties or anyth:f .np that we c~>n do to "'re;~l· the :!rpasse. So ~ar, I mTTst say, we h~>ve not heen <tll that sncceRsfuJ 1~:i th :1 t.

Tn relation to the othf'.r problems tl,at tnay or may not occur ;~t i·)nterford Gnt" the ~xon 1'nuse,ap:A:in I refer t!1e hon. gentJeman to tl1e preR:i,.cent of :T'rellsury Roar~. MR.. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAI<E:l: A supplementary, Then I will recognize the hen. member for Fogo (Capt. W~neor). 1-iR. lliF.A'RY: ·l'fr. S'!'eaker, a supplementary. Would t;he Minister - ·~. ]")()()Tl"'": Are you asking a question, Sir? 2220

~ecemhr.r 22. 1"75 Tape R55 IB-2 ves. ~elJ us t·:hat is r .appening in connection tvith ""terfori' Hospit<Jl anr1 1\xon House? lias that heen settlec1 up yet? f':(ln"Y : Sir, there are tHo areas of pr01"-le1'1 here, I. suppose . fine 0f theT!' is,if the l1on. mel"hf'r :ts Porriecl about acllT'ittance over the rhrist!'lAs f:f'CJSon, thllt restriction has nm,· J.,een raiser', ?.ncl - ''T'l ~·rr:.J\.T'lY: c:o, tl!e next election T am worriecl 2.hout. l·Tl,at is go:lnr; to happen to ;,] 1 that l•on. cro•·•i' 0ver there aFter the next eJection? •m ' . 'l0!1T'Y: 9e Jllay tal<e the same coursE' the h0n. mernher took :md run for cover. '··'ho knm.•s? 'l11e truth of the matter is, Sir, that t.re are act:lveJv c1oinr, what we can to try to 11.vert a strike.

I do not think there Kill be a stril·e. J have said it here before. I have said it here in the House, I do not honest) y he] ieve. that over "'hat appears to be a relatively inconseguential l'latter that the public service people -v•ho are empl oyecl at these essential Rervices at the homes, at the '·'l'lterforcl Fospital, Fxon llouse and other places t.!ilJ go on strike. "t C'annot honestly bel :5.eve that thev voill . We have h~>n a wonderfnl rel Ationsl•i.p Hi th tl-ter. clurinr the cnrrent year. '·le have hacl pay increaRes in excess of 25 per cent in many cases c1urinr, the past Rever~t1 years.

HorJ.·.inb cond1tlons "nd s;o] arj es have increase I' enomously. I ~o not realJy bel:leve that a strike situation will happen. In the event that H c'oes then government ~dU clo everything jn :i.ts po,,•er to protect the people for '"hom we have responsihility, the in~~tte~ of tl-tese institutions. They are the first and foremost re>Rponsibili ty of the administration. 1-le have ~tt-solutely no intention, Sir, of rene~in~ on th11t responsib:lli ty or backing off. We will see to h that full and ar1equate services are rna:lntainecl.

Tn the meantilne dialogue is availahle. !Je. are willing an~ able and anxious to talk to the un:lon representatives and <le ,,,iJ1 continue to do so. l'T'. "lEA"'Y: Jlear! Tlel'lr! 'T'he he>n. IT'ember for T."ogo (rapt. '-15.nsor) . !'r. Speaker, I l'lm not positi v e to whom I should direct this 2221

December 22, 1975 Tape 855 IB-3 Capt. Winsor: l]uestion either the ~•in:!ster of rfines and Energy or perhaps the Minister of Provincial Affairs. However I will direct the question to the Minister of Provincial Affairs. Would he undertake to enquire or investigate why the cost of electricity has doubled and almost tripled in certain areas of this Province, since ~ovember, during the months of November and December? AN RON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! HR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Provincial Affairs, MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Speaker, I think the question has ~ ~en asked and many members of the House,including myself,are very much concerned with the increase in the light bills. But what the reason is - I do not know if they are burning more kilowatt hours or it is the rates. But there is a Public Utilities Board and I will certainly - MR. NEARY: They want 75 per cent a month. MR. MURPHY: Whatever it is. It is a matter - and I would suggest, as I have suggested before on recommendation of the Minister of Justice,that if any member of this House wants to appeal any of this, all he needs,is it five? AN RON. ME}ffiER: Yes.

MR!- -~RPHY: Five of your constitutents and appeal to the Public Utilities Board who, as I understand have almost the right of a court to establish rates and whatnot. We have made dozens and dozens of representations through different areas. We received literally hundreds of phone calls about the same thing. The only advice I can give them, Sir, is the same advice that was given by the Minister of Justice here a short few weeks ago. NR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo, 2222

December 22, 1975, Tape 856, Page l -- apb CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Sneaker, would the minister undertake to carry out an investigation to see if we can ~et to the bottom of this? ~. MURPHY: No, I am afraid I cannot undertake to carry out any investigation. I can only tell the hon. member the same as I have told everybodv else. If there is any representations against any ruling I do not know how you would appeal it, but the Minister of .Justice is the one responsible~or the Justice Department. or the Board of Public Utilities.

I would say, if the members are doing their job, get together in their districts, organize committees and make an appeal ap,aint them. If you get fifty-one nembers with ten or twelve or twenty or thirty of forty or two hundred people appealing then there might he action taken by the Public Utilities Board hut not by my department. l>fR. NEARY : In connection with that Question, Sir, would the minister of Mines and Energy tell the House whether or not his p,overnment are going to provincialize the Newfoundland Light and Power Co1T!Jlany? MR. DOODY: l,'ould the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) permit the Opposition to have a question from time to time1 "'R. r.ROSlliE: Mr. Sneaker, the Newfoundland Light and Power Company are already provincialized. Thev operate here in this Province, I think they are incornorated under the Newfoundla.nd ·Comnanies Act and thev are as nrovincialized as you ~an get. MR. NF.ARY: Does the government intend to take over? MR. CROSlliF: tf we were, '1r. Sneaker, we certainly would not reveal it to the House. MR. SPEAKER: '1R. NOLAN: The hon. the member for Conception Bay South. '1r.

Sneaker, would the Minister of Mines and F.nergy indicate to u" to what extent the Newfoundland Light and Power Comnanv is merely a front for billing for the Newfoundland Hydro? They are the ones and Newfoundland Hy~ro will not appear before the Public Utilities Commission. MR. CROS!IIE: Mr. Sneaker, I am surprised the hon. gentleman asked that question. He was Minister of Economic Development and must 2223

December 22, 1975, Tape 856, Page 2 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: have had some connection with the Power Commission at some point. The hon. gentleman knows that the Newfoundland Light and Power Comnany Limited stands on its own feet. It has its own investments, it has its own assets, it has its own distribution netwnrk. It can only charge the customers what the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities allows it to charge to get a certain return on the amount that the company has invested. That is the Newfoundland Lip.ht and Power.

The Newfoundland Light and Power buys hydro power, hydro energy from Newfoundland and I.abrador Power,which is now called Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. It has to pay Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro at least what it costs Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. It is not now paying Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro what it costs Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, so members of this hon. House are asked every year to vote monies to subsidize the customers who are getting power from Newfoundland Light and Power, who have been receiving it from Hydro under cost.

At the beginning of this year Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro increased its rates to Newfoundland Light and Power which of course increased its rates for that reason and other reasons to its own customers. So they are two entirely distinct entities and the fact remains, Mr. Speaker, that Newfoundland Light and Power are getting oower from Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro at less than the cost to Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and we have to make up the difference by voting money in this House. MR. SPEAKER: I shall permit the hon. member another supplementary and then the hon. the member for Bellevue. MR.

NOLAN: To the Minister of Mines and Energy again; would the minister consider bringing in the necessary legislation which will demand that Newfoundland Hydro like any other util:l.ty appear before the Public Utilities Commission and lay their books on the table? m~. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! Hear, hear! MR. CROSBIE: Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro is not like any other utilitv. It is a government owned, it is a publicly owned 2224

necember 22, 1975, Ta~e 856, Page 3 -- apb MR. CROSBif:: corporation responsible and reporting to the Government of thts Province . Therefore it is in an entirely different oosition than Newfoundland Light and Power Company Limited. We will consider anything,and I will consider the hon. p,entlemnn's SURRestion ~but the hon. p.entleman when be was in Rovernment his ~ovPrnment did not take that action and we have not VPt decided to take it. Whether we will in the future or not,we wtll announce when it is decided . So yes, we will consider ;mythinr , MR. SPF.AI<F.R: The hon. the member for Bellevue . Xlt .

CALLA.~ : ~. Soeaker, 1 would like to ask the hon . the Minister of Mines and F.nerl'.v in connect ion with the Come By Chance oil refinerv,which i~ in my district, some of the workers down there have been ouittinp. their ;obs recently hecause of the danger that the thin11 could close ur and they are lookinp, around for mor e secure ;obs. I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy whether or not he could assure the Rouse and nerhaps these vorker" there that the thin~t 1dll not close up and perhaos he can ~ive us an up-to - date statement on what is the status of the thinp. now. 2225

December 22, 1975 Tape 857 PK- 1 Mr. Crosbie: Mr. Speaker, as I said before we are not in any position to give a statement on this matter because the matter is still under negotiation. It is under negotiation between certain Japanese interests~who are a large credito~ of the oil refinery, have been negotiating now for some six to eight weeks with the Shaheen organization and with ECGD and Kleinwort-Benson and with the Newfoundland Government to see under what terms and conditions they will continue to support it, and what security they wish for doing that. Those negotiations are not concluded.

Until they are concluded one way or the other it would not be reasonable or in the public interest for us to make any statement on the matter. Now I can only give an assurance to the people who are working at rome By Chance, insofar as it is within the government's power to see to it, we are endeavouring to see that there is no interruption in the operations of the Come By Chance oil refinery. But that primarily depends upon negotiations between other parties and not ourselves. ~ere we can play a part we will play it, and therefore that is all I can say at this time.

These negotiations are still going on, the refinery is still operating and we are hopeful and expectant that it will continue to operate but I can give no assurance other than that. ~ffi.. SPEAKER: The time has expired for Oral Question period time. Now before calling Orders of the Day, first I notice in the gallery Mr. David Rooney, Member of Parliament for Bonavista-Trinity­ Conception, I know hen. members welcome him here. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Also it was suggested to me by an hen. member and he asked that I thank on behalf of members of the House Mr.

Hellen's and the Conception Bay Region Band which played in the foyer during the lunch break, and I am certainly pleased to do that. SOME RON. l'OOffiERS: Hear, hear! 2226

December 22, 1975 Tape 857 PK - 2 ORDERS OF THE DAY ~~FJUCER: Motion 1. Order please! Before recognizing the hon. gentleman I should point out that when we adjourned on Friday there were a couple of matters to which members· were directing their attention. The immediate one, or the one now, is that just a few seconds before the adjournment the hon. member asked whether he still had the floor, to which I replied that depended on whether time had expired or not. One bon. member said, it had expired. The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) said it had not.

Then we had the motion to adjourn, so that was left in a state of suspense. I have since checked vith the officers of the House at the Table. It appears that while the regular proceedings were adjourned for the visit of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, the specific, accurate timing of that interruption was not in fact kept. There is, therefore, a question of doubt, and I give the benefit of the doubt to the hon. member rather than to the clock. I would suggest that the benefit of the doubt would be five minutes. MR. F. ROWE: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I do not think I will spend much of the five minutes at•this point, Sir. I will simply move an amendment since the other one was dispensed with, and the amendment reads, to amend the motion by deleting all words following "On November 28, 1975'' and this amendment, Sir, is seconded by my colleague from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush). Now, Sir, will I continue on or do you wish to consider that particular matter? MR.

SPEAKER: I think at this stage this is identical to the amendment to which the hon. gentleman had the intention of moving on Friday, but which in fact was not in order then because the hon. gentleman who seconded it, or purported to second it, could not in fact second it. Before we got to that specific point of order which was quickly decided - it was a question of fact whether the seconder could in fact second it - a point of order had been raised with reference to the amendment itself, and it was raised by the bon. House Leader (Mr. Wells).

I believe there were probably a few other comments on it, and I recall saying

-------------- December 22, 1975 Tape 857 :1r : _J?j>_~aker: then that before making a decision I would be prepared to hear brief and relevant submissions, argumentation on it. He did not proceed 2228 PK- 3

December 22, 1975 Tape 858 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: to that because then the question of a seconder came up. So I think that now I ~;:Ill be prepared to hear argumentation if there are those who wish to propose it. 'l'he hon. House J,eaoer. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would refer to the fourth edition of Reauchesne at page 170, paragraph 15. 11 An amendment approving part of a motion and d:l.sapproving the remainder is out of order~ They give the example there which I will read. ''On the 20th of October, 1932, the Prime }finister moved that the House approve a Trade Agreement entered into between Canada and the United Kingdom.

An amendment was moved that the House welcomed certain terms of the Agreement and condemne~ several features of it. The Speaker ruled it out because (

a) the portion of the amendment which approved the Agreement was useless as it suggested no change in the main motion, and also, (b), an amendment to disapprove what the main motion approves is nothing but an expanded negative. ~oreover, the amendment could not be a declaration of princ:fp]es because the only motions on which such a declaration can be moved are motions for the Address in reply to the Speech from the Throne, motions to go into Committee of Supply or Ways and Means and for the Second II Reaiting of Public Bills. Now in this case, Mr.

Speaker, we have a motion which is set forth on the Order Paper and the final sentence of it,which the han. member is moving be stricken out - that is his amendment - is that"this hon. House of Assembly approves the plans announced by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador for the phased continuation of the project during 1976 :• Now, Mr. Speaker, our submission is that the amendment would approve part of the motion, everything that went before that sentence,and would disapprove the remainder.

As such as that is not covereo by our Standing Orders directly, we fall back on Beauchesne and the Stan~ing Orders and precedent of the House of Commons. and 2229

December 22, 1975 Tape 858 IB-2 consequently, Your Honour, would argue that that amendment is completely out of order by virtue of that rule and that authority. VR. SPEM<EF: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. >w. llOBEP..TS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman opposite has made a reference to Beauchesne, and I submit that h:l.s citation is not appropriate and not applicable to the amendment which Your Honour now has under consideration. The purpose of the amendment, Sir, made by my friend from Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) is to delete part of the mot:lon.

The motion moved by the Minister of ~'ines and Energy has two separate and I submit almost distinct parts. They are related but they are quite distinct. One is to approve certain act i.ons which the p.overnment have undertaken, that is part one of the motion. Part two is to approve certain suggestions which the government have put forth as their policy with respect to hydro development in th:l,s Province in the next little while. That is the motion.

The effect of the amendment, Your Honour, would be to delete the second part of that motion and make it an entirely different - in other words, make the motion an entirely different one 1 thus meeting the first test of an amendment. The citation reac't by the hon. gentleman, Sir, :l.s not applicable here :l.n my view. It does not disapprove the main motion. First of all there is no suggestion of approval. The effect of the amendment :l.s neither to approve nor to disapprove. The effect of the amendment is to delete.

The citation, citation 15 of paragraph 202 is found on page 170 refers to a matter which approves and disapproves. There is no such intent, there are no words, there is no such effect here, Mr. Speaker. The effect of the amendment, the intent of it and the ~'orcls are all the same, is to delete the second part of the motion. So, I first of all submit that the citation is just not applicable and therefore gives Your Fonour no ground on which to ru]e out this amendment, to rule it out of order.

Secondly, if I could refer Your Honour to page 168 of Beauchesne, citation 200 wh:lch is one of the main ones on this question of amendments, 2230

~cember !2, 1975 ''R. R0!\1'RTS: Tape R5R IB-3 citation 200, suh-paragraph (4) - and I submit, Sir, this is dire ctly in point . It is at the top of page 168 for hon . gentlemen who wish to read along with me. "A motion which contains two or more distinct prop~sitions may be divided so that the sense of the Rouse may be taken on each separately'.' I submit , Sir, that is precisely what "·e are atteMpting to do here . This is the only proceclure open to us. The motion should have been separated by the government but that is not within our power . ID!at we are going to do, 2231

December 22, 1975. HR. ROBERTS: Tape SSQ RH - 1 if the amendment is in order, is to permit hon. gentlemen to vote, Sir, on each of these separately ann the effect of this amendment ~v.tll he to al]o" tbitt by re<juiring two separate votes, one on the amendment, one on the main motion and thus allo~Qng gentlemen and hon. members of the House to record their opi.nions separately on each of the t'm questions; first of all the ~overnment's actions to date with respect to certain matters of hydro development: secondly, with respect to the ~overnment's proposals for further deve]opments in these same matters.

So I submit, Sir, that citation 202-15 j_s quite il!lapplicable and does not govern in this case and that the one which should govern is 200-4 and that this motion should be separated. The amendment will do it. It is ouite in orrler,in my view,to have the amendment stand and let the House determine its fate. ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister without Portfo]jo. HR. 1-JELLS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I disagree entirely, of course, with what the hon. Leader of the Opposition said.

If, and I would refer Your Honour back to page 170 of Beauchesne to sub-paragraph fourteen which says, "An amendment which t•ould produce the same result as if the ori~inal motion were simply ne!(atived is out of order." In this ease I suggest to Your Honour that to allow this amendment would really ne~ative entirely the motion and that the real ~ist of this motion- the guts, I was goinR to say of this motion-is in that last sentence that "this hon.

Rouse of Assembly approve the plans announced by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador for the phased continuation of the project during 1976~ 1 And to delete that, Hr. Speaker, vould completely negative the motion itself. ~'R. RORERT S : Mr. Speaker, if I may respond to the secondary point made by the hon. gentleman from Kilbride (Mr. Wells) no~· that he has given up on his main point, the main point being citation 15 or sub-paragraph 15. }m. vlliLLS: That is not so, not so at all. MR. ROBERTS: Sub-paragraph 14, Sir, again in my submission,is not apt, does not apply.

If one were to negative this motion, Mr. Speaker, if one were to negative the amended motion-and this is the test of whether the effect of an amendment can be achieved simply by voting no - jf one were 2232

December 22, 1975. HR. llOBF.RTS: Tape 859 RR - 2 to negative the motion as it now stands, Sir, one would be disapproving the government's conduct as well as the government's proposals, the two separate and distinct parts. If one were to accept the amendment, Sir, and the amendment were then to carry,and then the amended motion were to carry, one would have ~pproved the government's conduct, the House would have, but would not have approved their proposals. I submit, Sir, the two are completely distinct. Therefore the effect of the amendment cannot be obtained simply by negativing the main motion.

If one negatives the main motion, Mr. Speaker, one votes against both the government's conduct and the government's proposals. The effect of the amendment, Sir, is to allow a separate vote on each of the t~•o questions. Indeed, Sir, this motion should never have been put hy the government in the form in which it is. It should have been put as two separate and distinct motions. If the government prefer, if the government ~~ould agree to allow us to vote in that "ay,that is fine.

All we ~•ant to do is to have the opportunity for hon. members of the House to vote on each of the two quite separate, related I grant, hut quite separate questions embodied in this motion. MR. lVE.LLS: To the point of order, l!r. Speaker. I do not want to carry this on all afternoon but I think my hon. friend has missed the point here, and that is that the government is not saying we have done such and such and we ask for approval of that,and ~1e plan to do something else and we ask approval of that.

The government has done-and that applies equally to the l<ardj_ng, the sentence at the end, the plans announced by the Government of NeHfoundland for the phasecl continuation of projects duri.ng 1976 - the govern­ ment has decided that. That is already decided and has been decided by the p:overnment, ~lr. Speaker. The whole thing is one thing and the government has already decided from the time it bought CfLCo shares and the water r~ p:hts, everything right to now including the phased slow-down of the proiect for 1076 has been decided.

It is not something we are coming to the House and saying, "Give us the authority to decide this.'' The government has the authority. It has used the authority. The decision is over and done with. Therefore the whole motion, Mr. Speaker, is one whole and 2233

December 22, 1975. MR. WELLS: should be treated as s.uch. Tape 859 MR. ROBF.RTS: ~fr. Speaker, if I may respond to the tertiary RH - 3 point raised by the hon. gentleman opposite now that l:te has retreated on his primary point and his secondary point, first of all, I would say, I could make the comment that if the government have already approved the course of action it is a farce to ~ring the matter before the legislature. I mean that is not the t''ay. ~1R. HELLS: No it is not. No it is not. ~lR . ROBERTS: Hut secondly, Mr.

Speaker, the words of the motion itself as moved by the Minister of Mines and Energy twice contain,or the words are twice-the \mrd 'approved', appears. There are two separate sets. They happen to be joined by a connna. Thi .s is 223 4

necemher 22, 1975 Tape No. 860 NN- 1 'IT' . T',O.Bi::P.T!'i: not the place for a syntactical lecture. The fact remains ~hat the motion is one, that the House approve the steps taken to datE'.- it goes on to specify "hat those ~teps are - and two, that this han. House of Assembly approves thf' plans announced. 1\nd Mr. Speaker, those are t,. o separate qu~stions. lt may be in order to consider them together, that is vell and ~nod. Clhviou11ly it is in order. The motion has stood and5 being debated.

All we propose to do, Sir, all that the amendment seeks to do is to allow the House to record i.ts sense separately if it so tvishes on each of those tt•o questions. I submit, Sir, the amendment is quite in order. 'll' . SPEAKER: I have l:l .11tened tvith interest to the arguments put up at my left and hon. members at my right on this point of order. Bertainly the argumentation has been closely reasoned and t.rhat I Hill propose to do,since it is not a matter in which one can reserve an opinion for any length of time, is to adjourn for five minutes and to ~ive my decision then. ~:R. SPF./IKF.r: Order, please!

I have considered with care the arp,uments put fonJard by han. gentlemen on both sides of the House •·Ti th respect to the amendment proposed by the bon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (}fr. RoVTe), the arguments pertaininp; to Hhether theposed amend!T'ent was in order or not in order. Without revieHinr, the entire arp,umentations put fon.•ard, I 1vould look briefly at sections 202 (15) of Beauchesne,which was referred to by the han. House Leader~and then 200 (4) referred to by the han. Leader of the Opposition (Nr.

Roberts). 202 (15) starts off with a very g~neral statement," An amendment approving part of a motion and disapproving the remainder is out of order. The argument then goes on to give a specific example of an occurrence in the House ~f Commons with respect to an amendment approving term~ of an agreement and disapproving other terms of an agreement. I t~ould suggest that while the first sentence in that citation 2235

necember 22, 1975 Tape No. 860 NM - 2 ''P.. SPEAKER: is quite clear, the specific example that Mr. Beauchesne gives is not completely applicable, completely similar to the case we have no~t. And with respect to 200 (4) quoted by the Lea!ier of the Opposition O~r. Roberts), "A motion which contains two or more distinct propositions may be divided so that the sense of the House may he taken on each separately;' I would have to interpret Beauchesne as meaning there that when notice of it is given or when the motion is indeed given that it would be severed or that it might be done by the Chair.

I have not found either of those paragraphs totally decisive so what I have endeavoured to do is to go to

section 201 Beauchesne 1vhere the overall general purpose and objectives of amendments is alluded to. It seems to be the most general

part in a statement 6f basic purposes, and it says, "The object of an amendment may be to effect such an alteration in a question as will obtain the support of those who, without such alteration, must either vote against it or abstain from voting thereon, or to present to the House an alternative proposition either wholly or partially opposed to the original question • 11 Now it appears to me that the purpose in this amendment coincides with the reference that Beauchesne makes in 201, that the object may be -and here it appears to me that it is,and I cannot read people's intentions obviously- to effect such an alteration in the motion that it could obtain the support of those with the alteration who without the alteration could not or would not sppport it.

So it appears to me that it is lvithin the general principle and purpose of amendments as referred to specifically by Eeauchesne in paragraph 201. And that being the casc,unless there is a specific technical or other rule broken, then if it falls within that purpose and is not null and void for some other reason then obviouslv it must be in order. I am not aware that it is null and void for any other reason. It is my opinion that it does fall within the purpose and category of amendment referred to ~y Beauchesne in 201 and it is my decision 2236

Oecember 22, 197) Tape No . ~0 NN - 3 'IR. SPl'.AKEn: that it is in order and the quPstion before the Chair now is the amendment moved by the bon. gentleman and seconded by his colleague. to amend the motion by deleting all \>lords follo1o1ing''on November 28, 1975." 11R . RO\oFE: Th::~nk you ve cy rnuch, Jlr. Speaker. Now, Sir, the r eason we are voting for this amendment,or against the first pa.:t of t he motion put by the. 1-'inister of ~lines and Energy (Mr. Crosbie} ~·h'lch in effect deals with what the administration of this l>rovince has done up to the present time, Sir, is that we feel very stronAlY that the government of this Province ~dop ted an attitude o( tunnel vision 2231

December 22, 1975 Tape 861 PK - 1 Jll'r. Rowe: ---- with respect to their actions so far in the development of hydro- electric power on the mainland portion of the Province, in other words in Labrador. And, Sir, in the minister's ministerial statement brought before this House some days ago,the minister indicated that the load growth each year is increasing by 8.1 per cent- or 8.1 per cent per annum. And he suggested that this would be for the period 197fi to 1990.

And this means, Sir, an additional need of electrical power in this Province of approximately seventy-five megawatts per year, Sir, and this is compounded. And, Sir, to make matters even more critical this is not taking the industrial need into consideration.

In other words,in this Province of ours there is at least a minimum of seventy-five megawatts per year of electricity required for domestic consumption, and therefore we are facing a very serious energy crisis within the immediate future, within the next year or two or three, and this is not, I repeat, taking into consideration any new industrial need that may arise as a result of the government's effort to attract industry to this Province. And, Sir, there are only two ways out, two ways out, either to raise the price of electricity in order to limit use,or limit the amount of power made available.

Now, Sir, what are other solutions? Well the first,obvious one is the one that we are dealing with mainly and that is the Gull Island site itself, and we know already that has been deferred for a minimum of one year. It may be much more. And we know further that even if it were developed immediately that we simply cannot use up the 1,800 megawatts from the Lower Churchill or the Gull Island site. Therefore, Sir, we had to look at other sources or alternative sources of power. And this, Sir, is why the amendment was brought in so we can focus in on the first part of that motion which we disagree with entirely.

The government has failed absolutely, Sir, has failed absolutely to grapple,or to look at,and to develop the other alternative sources of "power in this Province just in ease things did not go ahead , 2238

December 32, 1975 Tape 861 PK - 2 Mr. Rowe: quite smoothly on the Gull Island site which we have witnessed did not. Theydid not go ahead smoothly, and consequently we are stuck with looking at other alternative sources of power and not having taken action on it. And this is a point that I want to make.

For example - and I will make very brief reference to this because we have already 7 I already mentioned it the other day, but if I refer to page 6, Sir, of a statement made by the Premier last year in this !louse of Assembly, the Premier indicated there, Sir, eight other rivers in Labrador,the Naskaupi River with 1,150 megawatt capacity; the Eagle River,590 megawatts; the (I cannot quite pronounce this.

Probably my friend from Labrador can help~ Canairiktok River, 490 megawatts, the Paradise River,l75 megawatts; the Red Wine River,153 megawatts; the Goose River 7148 megawatts; and the Fig River,140 megawatts,and, Sir, on the Island itself we have the Terra Nova~89 megawatts; · Piper's llole,75; Cat Arm,77; the Upper Salmon, that is the Lloyds River Diversion,62; the Main River~Sl megawatts; Bay de Nord~36 megawatts; the Upper Humber,32 megawatts; and the Hynes Brook,27 megawatts. Sir, the hydro potential on this Island part of our Province adds up to 445 megawatts.

Now, Sir, some of these hydro-electric potentials are not particularly good for the Province, let us put it as simply as 2239

necember 22, 1975 ~!R. 1'. l'OHE: Tape R62 IB-1 we can. For instance, in developing the Terra Nova River we were talking about floodin!Z that might a.ffect the Terra Nova National Park. The Lloyds River diversion, we have already gone through that.

But what I am trying to say, Sir, is that out of that 445 megawatts of potential power in this Province, one, two, three, four, five, six seven, eight rivers and eiRht rivers in Labrador adding up in excess of 2,000 megawatts, this administration, Sir, should have paid more attention to putting these hydro-electric sources on stream •rhich obviously would be much less expensive than the Gull Island site, put those on strea~ in order to take care of our domestic neerls over the next few years. AN RON. t"EYBF.P: Hear! Hear! _l'F • F. P.OHF.: Sir, this is what we object to with the government's action of the past.

Now, it is obvious that some of these alternatives that I h~ve put before the House are most undesirable. Now the hon. Minister of ~'ines and Energy said in one of his statements, because of the deferral of the Gull Island site for at least one year - and that may be more - and because of the length of time to get the intertie goin~ and the transmission tunnel under the Strait of Belle Isle that he may have to bring in another unit into the - not Bay D'Espoir - AN RON. MEYBER: Rolyrood. ~!R. F. ROWF.: Into Holyrood, a thermal generating unit out there. AN HON. l"'F.YBEI': Explain it. ~~.

F. l>OHF.: Now, Sir, there is a big question mark on that one. The two problems there are ,number one, the lead time on this th:!.ng is three to four years,! am led to bel:!.eve.,to get another unit in there. That has only a seventy-five or is :l.t 150,000 - I stand - 150 megawatts or seventy-five, I keep forgett:!ng? AN HON. tW.t'BEll: One hundred and fifty. ~. F. ROl~: One hundred and fifty. Another unit, 150 megawatts three to four years to get on stream, and by that time, Sir, we will be 300 megawatts short if we do not develop any sources because 2240

necemher 22, 1975 'iR • F. RmTF. : Tape 862 the minister has said himself that the load growth is 75 megawatts per year. That is one problem with the thermal generating unit at JTolyrood. IB-2 The other problem, Sir, I am told by experts, strictly engineering experts, and also fisheries experts, is that a third unit in the thermal plant in Holyrood, the heat that would come out of that would be -Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance can shake his head and wave his hands all he wants to. I have gone to considerable trouble to ~et the opinion of people ~mo I consider to be experts.

The mi.nister r,~hen he closes debate can answer these nt1estions that I am raising at this point. I am told that the amount of heat coming out of the third unit at the Holyrood generating station,if it goes on stream,w:lll be such that it would cause an increase in temperature of the r..rater so as to cause a severe increase in the disease with the fish in the bay that r,rould conceivably spread to other waters surrounring the Province. ~'R. DOODY: Bunl<um: MR. F. P.OWE: So therefore, Sir, we raise that questioD because v7e think it is a very serious problem.

The other thing that we have to look at are the value 1udP.ements that have to be placed on other hydro potential areas in the Province. Nmv, Sir, I mentioned that we are on the verge of a disasterous domestic pot•er shortage. The reason is quite simple, Sir.

The povernment,for whatever reason, were obsessed in my view, in my opinion, wi.th the takeover and the r1evelopment of the ],ower Churchill to the point r..•here they had blinkers on. '!'hey could not see the forest for the trees. '!'hey did not pay enough attention to,and they did not tal<e the precautionary steps necessary to develop these other hydro-electric potenti.als in our Province in the event of what could happen, in fact d:lr1 happen, a deferment on the Lower Churchill development. 2241

December 22, 1975 Tape no. 863 Page 1 - mw Mr. Rowe. So, Sir, we are in no way going to support this administtation for adopting the tunnel vision that they have adopted in this regard. MR. HICKMAN: You think we should have done Pi~ers Hole ,instead of the Lower Churchill? MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, the hon.

Minister of Justice once again is trying to pick out one exception,or one little instance in order to try to disprove a generality, and the generality fhat I am making is this, and the charge that I am making is that the government closed their eyes and did not attempt to bring on stream other alternative sources of electric power in this Province to meet our domestic needs, and, if possible, to meet an industrial need if industry did come to this Province, 8uring the period in which we were trying to develop the Lower Churchill. Sir, there are certain of these rivers that are undesirable to develop.

There are some that are not quite undesirable. This, Sir, is why we think, in fact, that, you know, - well I will get to that point after about continuing on with the tunnel and continuing on with the transmission line and what should be done about it. AN RON. MEMBER: It is very simple. MR. ROWE: It is very simple.

That is really the point that I want to make, that the government were simply· -llteering a course into a very stormy sea with respect to the development of the Lower Churchill with no contingency courses of action and now, Sir, the ship of state is right in the eye of the storm, and it cannot get out of it, because it is zero or 1,800 megawatts and that is going to come ~~ith a delay, and we are looking at a three, or four, or five year lead time with respect to the development of these other sources.

Now, Sir, the proof is in the pudding, and it is in the revelation of the studies that the government have conducted, and 2242

December 22, 1975 Tape no. 863 Page · 2 - mw Mr. Rowe. I might add with great expense,to the people of this Province. Sir, if one looks at the information that has been put out by the Minister of Mines and Energy, and he did a very excellent job in his one and one-half hour ministerial statement in giving a historical review of the situation up-to-date.

Sir, the minister and the Premier, before him, in his statements, have referred to no less than fourteen different studies conducted on behalf of this Province; the Teshmont consultauns, Zinder and Associates, Shawinigan Engineering Company Limited, Montreal Engineering ·Company Limited, Acres Consulting Services, Shawmont. Now, Sir, some are technical. MR. DOODY: They are not all in it. MR. ROWE: Sir, if the han. minister will let me finish my remarks, he will - MR. DOODY: MR. ROWE: I would love to. Okay.

Morgan and Stanley and Company, the fiscal agents, Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, Thurlow Associates on the environmental studie~,Environmental Control Consultants Limited, Foundation Engineering of Canada Corporation Limited, Lower Churchill Consultants, the Planning Task Force and Burns Brothers and Denton. Sir, we have had at least a minimum of fourteen different studies, some associated, some related, some purely in the financial area, some purely in the technological area, some purely in the environmental area and many like the minister said, crossing over. Now, Sir, why so many studies conducted?

I submit, Sir,- well the first answer that jumps to mind is that the government was trying to get information. Well that may be well so, Sir. But, Sir, why were so many studies r~quired if the government felt so safe and secure in acquiring the shares of BRINCO and the water rights on the Labrador in 1974? Why were so many studies required after the act had been committed? 2243

December 22, 1975 Tape n.o. 863 Page 3- mw Mr. Rowe. Now, Sir, to me the reason is quite obvious. Sir, the government had made up its mind. It had one course set. It had tunnel vision,for whatever reason, They were obsessed with developing the Lower Churchill. They neglected to take the alternative hydro potential into consideration, and the reason why we had ' so IIIIUlY studies, Sir, after the deed was committed is that the government vas seeking desperately for a reason to justify or rationali~e their decision to develop 2244

Tl<ecernher 22, 1975 Tape 1164 Ill-1 Mr. F. Rowe: the Lm•er Churchill and to- well,beforehand to acquire the BRINCO shares and the water rir,hts. S:lr, what better justification can you get than finding it in several such rerorts~ Hhat better justification? S:l r, which leads Me to page 5 of the ~~inister of Yines and F:nergy 's ministerial statement down tov1ards the bottom of the page, and I quote, Sir. "At the same time that negotiations were proceeding with BRINCO ,a government initiated Planning Task Porce Study Group on Energy was at work in May 1973.

It was recommended that serious consideration be given by the government to regaining control of the Province's Labrador hydro-electric energy sources." Now, Sir, let us look at that statement again. "At the same time that nej!_ot:lations were proceeding with BRINCO a government initiated Plann:lng Task Force Study Group on Energy was at work and in l'ay 19 73. It recommemled that serious considerat:lon be given by the government to rega:ln:l.ng control of the Province's Labrador hydro--electric enerr,y." Now, Sir, is that so? Is that so?

Was just ser:lous considerat:lon being recommended,or was :It recommended outr:l .ght? Sir, what plse is contained in that report? 'What :l.n fact did the report conta:l.n? Did the report contain a list of al ternat:l.ves? And I ask the ~'in:lster of Mi.nes and Energy that question because that is the most i~ortant question that has been asked to this point, bec::tuse lo.'e have one ] ittle paragraph here out of that whole report. 1-lhat does it say? That it was recommended that the government pive serious consideration. It does not say that the government acouire or gain control.

Si.r, we want to know '"hat that report recommended. Dicl in fact the report recommend l,rhat :l.s contained in the minister's statement? nid :It contain that? Sir, we cannot put aside the fact that the r-overnrnent has not yet tabled to my knowledge that report in this han. House. That report has not been made public. Is the povernment hi~inr, anything in this respect? MR. DOODY: Nothing. 2245

ne cemher 22, 1975 Tape 864 IB-2 ~. F. ROWE: Well, why is the report not made public? Sir, we have every reason to ask whether this statement made by the minister represents tt1e true recommendation of the Task Force on Planning - the Planning Task Force on Energy. We are not questioning the honesty or the integrity of the Vinister of Vines and E'nergy. Let me put that on the record. But we are asking what is contained in that report.

Is anything being hid«en? nid the report in fact recommend the actions that the government carried out when they acquired BRINCO shares and the water tights and since they have acquired BRINCQ, their actions since?

Now, Sir, it is very interesting to note that in some questioning put to the minister during his introduction of this motion when my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition,asked some questions relating to the Planning Task Force on Energy- or the Planning Task Force Study Group on Energy, the I.earler of the Opposition asked some questions related to that report and the minister and I am accurate on this one and I am not going - because I wrote it dovn at the time- the minister replied that he had not seen the report for two years. The minister had not seen that report for two years.

Yet on November 28th of this year we have this quotation in the ministerial statement. So it 2246

December 22, 1975 Tape No. 865 ~- 1 HR. RO'Iffi: is quite conceivable, Sir, that this statement taken from the task force report could be totally and completely out of context. So, Sir, we want to know what is contained in that particular report, and whether in face the minister's statement truly represents the recommendations of that report. Sir, on page six of the same ministerial statement, "Simultaneously ShawMont Ne~vfoundland Limited was commissioned to study alternatives to the Gull Island Development." Alternatives to the t!Pvelopment! Now did the planning task force already study alternatives?

But anyway, ShawHont Newfoundland Limited was commissioned to study alternatives to the Gull Island Development.

"The results of these two studies" - and there is another one referred to by Teshmont and Zinder Associates earlier - "'rhe results of these two studies, which were received in February and November, 1974, confirmed that the Gull Island hydro-electric project was both technically and financially feasible and the best source of additional energy available amongst all possible alternatives." But, Sir, what else would you expect from ShawMont Newfoundland Limited when they had a vested interest in the whole project to start off with? ~~. PECKFORD: What do you mean? '1-!R. ROl<E: l.fuat do I mean?

It speaks for itself, Mr. Speaker. It speaks for itself. They were involved with this and they only say that it was technically and financially feasible, and the best source of additional energy available amongst all the possible alternatives, but it still does not deal with the question, what do we do with the immediate powershortage that is confronting this Province over the next two or three years? And the figures are there in the minister's statement.

Seventy-five megawatts per year for domestic use and the lead time of three~ four years for any alternative and still no word as to whether this - and I got to re-emphasize this, Sir - there is no guarantee that the Gull Island site will be on stream in the next two, three, feur, five, six, ten, fifteen or twenty years Sir, it might even be that if the government had to develop those other alternative sources of electricity on the Mainland and on the Island part of our Province, if they had to develop these areas, we could have met our domestic needs, 2247

December 22, 1975 Tape No. 865 MR. ROWE: we could have mat some additional industrial needs, and we could have taken our time on the Gull Island site and in ten or fifteen vears tjme the Gull [!'land site l~ould be a gold mine with the escalating costs of fossil fuels throughout the world today.

So, Sir, l~e leave this question up in the air 1 What did that task force report contain with respect to other alternative sources of electricity1 For example, Sir, I have already mentioned other " smaller hydro electric sources in Labrador or the Island1and I have alre~dy mentioned the eight rivers on the Island and the eight rivers on the mainland portion, all of l~hich cannot be developed, Sir, because of the reasons tl1at have already been made public with respect to the Lloyds River, and certainly the Terra Nova 'River.

But, Sir, you can <levelop other alternative sites in Lahrador,and you can continue with the transmission line,and you can continue with the terminals,and you can continue with the tunnel,and you can build up cable capacity in steps, to take these other alternative sites,and the final step would he stepped up to the point where you can carry the Gull Island site, the 1800 mep:aHatts.

Now, Sir, I have got one other point here, T cannot remember now, it hns hf'E'!' so l onp; ago since T looked at thi.s flUOte on page forty- thre e of the mjnister's statement, something about, "given the need for a net•• enerr,v source to be in a service hv the end of 198(), any decision not to proceed ~lith full Gull Island project had to be coupled '"ith a decision on an alternative enerp,y source, The major options open to the Province ar£>:adopt the conventional oil-fired thermal-nuclear r oute,or construct tre transmission lines nne\ pending the availability of r:ull IsJ and energy obtain enerp,y re')ui.red from Churchill Falls.,.

Sir, thi.>< i,; the heart of the problem. They see thjs as their only options 2248

December 22, 1975 Mr. F. Rowe: Tape 866 and they (lo not Jook at the possib:!Hty of buj]cl:fnr, up the cable capacity fro~ Labrador :In stages and then comin~ :In with the Gull IB-1 Island site power later on. They just lookecl at these other alternatives. The government. c1irl not r!o anything about it, 1l.ncl th:ls is where we take issue with the r,overnment. They lool<ed at it. They did nothing about it :In the way of act :I on. I hope I 1U1l absolutely Hrong, 1-'r. Speaker.

T hope that the government has taken steps such that lve c11n be guaranteed seventy-five megawatts per year until we can develop the Lower r.hurchi] J or ;my other sizeable source of electrical power in this Province. I am si.ncere :In that, Sir, and I am not trying to deliver any pokes or hody hlows or anything at the government on this one. Rut I will repeat it again because I think it is very important, that l•'e are facing this power shortage and the government because of its tunneJ vision, its obsession with and focusing only on the C:ull Island site have forgotten and not developed - ~m. NEARY: r~r.

Spe.aker, I do not see a quorum in the House. '~. F. ROHF.: - the other alternatives. · ~ . SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) Order. olease! MR. MURPHY: Can you ask for a quornm count anrl ,,..v,.l' ~. SPRAKER: (Dr. Collins) On that point, should a member call for a quorum and then leave,a member may do so according to our rules. ~ . lllPPl'lY : !'r. Speaker, if I may,at this t:l.me. When the bon . memher saic1 there ~1as no ouorum I counted the House and there were fourteen in and the member was just walking out through the door.

Your know, I mean can any member at any time disrupt a speaker just to say there is no ouorum if there are forty people in the House? There must be some sense of responsibility. ~'1'. SPEAK~Jl: (l"r. Collins): I will now ask the 1aw clerk to count the House. The hon. memher may continue. JI.P. • F. TIOWE: Thank you, ~rr. Speaker. Now, "'here was I? MR. NEARY: There were only t~,relve in the Rouse. 2249

necembeY 22 , 1 75 Tape 866 IB-2 ~'fR. MU1U'RY: There were fourteen. MF. F. ROWE: Now that all the - MR. · SPEAKER (t'r. Coll:lns~: Order, please! Orcl.er, please! HR. F. ROWE: - violence and turbulence has subsided - Mr. Speaker, we have raised the basic issue that the government has not taken the necessary steps to ensure that we will not have a severe electrical shortage within the next few years. But, Sir, there is one other thing that I may relate to,if I can, and that is the tunnel go:l.ng under the Straits of Beil.e Isle. Sir, I am given to understand that we have two problems there.

One is the fact that drill holes were not conducted substantially in the S.traits seetion itself. We are further given to unde.rstand that there is a fault zone leading .through the Straits of Belle Isle. 'There are two completely different formations of rock on either side of the Straits of Belle Isle. We are also lead to believe that there is a strong possibility that there may be movement in that fa'!llt zone,. Now :l.t has not been proven, Sir, but it is suspect ·ed by geologists who have told me that movement is expected in that fault. Now without 2250

Decemher 22, 1n1s . t'T'. V. T'OHF.: Tape ll67 RH - 1 the proper drilling we can proceed part way across the Straits of Belle Jg1e at great exrense only to fine\ that He are floonerl hecause some fault zones have this material whereby you can have severe fracturinp.: and '"hat have you~and you do get leaV.ap.:e of the sea water and other terrestrial waters in such a tunnel. llut, Sir, that has already been mentioned by the Leader of the Orposition.

There is another point that I woul<l appreciate the minister relating to and that is this business of a slope, t'vo slopes or a vertical shaft on either side of the tunnel. No'", Sir, it is more costly per foot to put a vertical shaft than it is to put a slopinp shaft.- that is point number one - per foot. :Rut obviously a slope !!haft would he much lonp.:er than a vertical shaft.

Therefore the total cost for a slope shaft would he more than a vertical shaft. llowever, if you nut in a vertical shaft, Sir, the cost of lo,verinp.: that verv heavy cable down to a depth of some P.OO feet - is it - apparently causes p:rave technical problems because there is a tremendous strain and weight on the cable that could do injury to the cahle and in the process of turnin~ it hori?.ontalJy from the vertical,that can also do damage. ~nw, Sir, however if you had a slope shaft you would not encounter these technical problems with respect to putting the cable in.

Nm•, as ,.rell it 'muld be more suitable to have a slope shaft for purposes of transportatio~ If you are going to be using trains or trucks or other forms of vehicle~ obviously in the long run,taking into consideration the technical problems in lowering the cable in a vertical shaft and the ad<litional costs because of this, taking that into consideration and takinr the benefits th2t would accrue from a slope shaft in terms of trans­ portation hetween the Island

section and the mainland

section of our ProvincE' ,although in the final analysis the total cost may he greater, Sir, T submit t~at - and it mav not he greater - but if it is p.:reater I thinlc it wou]<l he money '"ell snent in terms of thE' l,pnefits that 'vould come to this Province in a re~uction of the cost of bringing ~aterials back and forth to the - and I am sure my colleagues from Labrador would certainly agree that one of the oro~lems facing the Labrador arell. of our Province is the 11ir.h cost of materials anrl goods and food and this sort of a thing, and presumably a tunnel would reduce that cost over the years, although at this point in the game it may be a little more costly. 2251

OeceMber 22 , 1975. HR . rJ'Il£: Tape R67 Rll - 2 So , Sir, I would like the ministe r t~ p,ive more serious consideration t<> this whole "usiness of l·•hcther or not we ~hould have a slope or vertical 5haft on eit~er side <>f the Strait . I was a 1itt1e b~t tak~~ aback when th" minister indj cated that thev r~cre ready t o RO ahead in putting the collars ln for tltese vertical shaf t s . I think this is a little hit premature . Sir . at this particular sta~e of thP. ~ame . Ynto~, ~ir, I real!:-;~ thAt I have more time left ancl in fact I mav h.!!ve unlimi .ted time .

Jlut J aM as anY.ious as the 'linister of Mines and F. ner~y is to clue up thls parti cul ar deba te. I would like to reiterate Si't', that it is unfortunate we had to come hack tod11y. I did not see the need for havin~ to clue up this debate before Christmas . I cou ld not see why it could not have held over to afte r an adjournmen t or a recess beca use I think this is a very serious topic unde-r discussion here. There are a lot of questions that 1ust have not bee n answered. I hope that the minister does not take. this as a political or part:isan attac k at <1ll. from this side .

Rut the puroose was to brin~t befo re the !louse certain actions that we thin k the AOVernment have taY.en since acqu i r i ng t he share s of BRINr.O t hat ~~ere not in the best interests of our l'rovince and ~ore devastatinr,, Si r, certain actio ns that t hey ~ave not taken 2252

December 22, 1975 ~m. 'lOW"E: Tape no. 868 Page l - mw that are not in the best interest of our Province and that is coincident with the development of the Lower Churchill or the Gull Island site,that this Province make every effort to develop where economically feasible and environmentally desirable and technologically feasible, develop coincident with the development of the Lower Churchill and indeed before, develop the other alternative sources of power, both on the Island of our Province and on the mainland, and I would submit, Sir, that if they go ahead with the tunnel and the transmission line~, t he tunnel across the Strait and the transmission lines, that they give very serious consideration to putting on stream - and this is something that they should have thought of two or three years ago - putting on stream these other rivers such as - now there may be reasons not to do it - such as; the Fig, the Goose, the Red Wine, the Paradise, the Eagle River, the Naskaupi.

Well the Naskaupi is one of those 1,150 megawatt jobs again. So we can encounter the same basic problem there,really~as we would with the Gull Island project. Sir, unless the government have done something positive and constructive with respect to develpping a number of these other s ixteen alternatives this government has waltzed this Province into a severe energy crisis and a severe electrical mess,I predict,within the next year or two in this Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. ME}ffiERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Dr . Colli ns): The hon. member for LaPoile. HR.

NEARY: Never in my life, Sir, in this hon. House have I heard such a weak-kneed, weak-hearted argument for supporting an amendment . Now, Sir, if the hon. old guard Opposition had brought in an amendment to this resolution to eliminate the first part of the resolution, Sir, then I think I would have had to vote for it. As 2253

December 22, 1915 Mr. Neary. Tape no. 868 I indicated to the House the other day, Mr. Speaker, I am very tormented about the first part of the resolution. But, Sir, to eliminate the second part of the resolution, the most important part of the resolution brought in by the Minister of Mines and Energy! The first part of the resolunion, Sir, is just window dressing, just a little bit of self-praise for the administration. It does not mean anything at all. It is. the second part that means something, Sir, and as I indicated when I spoke earlier in the debate, Mr.

Speaker, that there is no point in crying over spilled milk. The thing, Sir, that I condemn the administration most for in this whole matter of hydro development in this Province is the fact that they did not nationalize the Newfoundland Light and Power Company when they forced the takeover of Churchill Falls. They should have gone all the way. There is the biggest blunder of all, Sir, ~ot the reason expressed by the hon. gentleman who just took his seat, who obviously was tilting at windmills, creating - look! you know, Mr. Speaker, sometimes I wonder where the real Tories are in this House.

You know, I am getting more convinced all the time that the Tories are on this side and the Liberals are over on the other side. The reason I say that, Sir, listening to my hon. friend there who just spoke in this debate, reminded me of the Opposition when they were over here, when the Tories were over here and the Liberals were on that side. That was the same kind of argument that you would get from my hon. friend from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) and my hon. friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) and the hen. Minister of Justice and to a certain degree the Government House Leader.

That is the kind of argument that you would get from these non. gentlemen. They would start asking rheto~ical questions. They would use the old Communist technique, ask questions, to try to create a little bit of doubt, to try to make you scared, to ask questions that they probably knew the 2254

December 22, 1975 Tape no. 868 Page 3 - mw ~1r. Neary. answer to, but they would ask them anyway, just to try to create a little bit of doubt in the minds of members who are not engineers, who are not academics, who are not intellects, who are not geologists, and as well informed as my han. gentleman, the han. gentleman 2255

DPcemher 22, 1975, T~ne R69, Pape 1 -- aph MR.NEARV: Pho iuRt ,;pok~. So the ~vhole. nnrnose of the exerciRe, Sir, 11'; to create doubt, to try to iustify their taking thi~; nosition of votinp. apatnst the cont1nnl'ltion of development of the Lower r.hnrch1.ll hy continuinp: the imnlementation, the construction of the transl'll.ssion line and the construction of a tunnel under thP Straits of Belle Tsle.

Thev are votin~ against that despite the fact that one hon. member in that caucus todav got up and asked the 'linister of "'inl"s and Energy to outline to this !louse what make- <-~ork project" - "What make-work nro:jects" he said, "do ,-, .. , 'wve to take care of the record number of unemployed in tlt' ,> rovince?" And the M"in:ister of M1.nes and Energy did not have sense enough to say, "Hf>ll look, onP of the thing~; we nre trvin~ to do is to build a tunnel und.orne-<1th the Straits of Belle lsle and to build a transmission line and we hnve to p:o up and ask Uncle Otta~va to help us out.

There 1s one thinr, we are going to do to trv to create employment, hadlv needed .1ohs in this Province •. , An excellent make-work nro1ect, Sir, excellent, and thl" Government of Canada should p~y the bip:gest share of the cost. As I indicated, Sir, the resolution is in two parts. The first part r am tormented about, t would iust as soon vote against it. T ,.,1sh thP offj cj al Opposition had brought in an amendment to wine out the first part <1nd vote for tl,e seconcl nart. Because if vou vote against the second p~rt, Sir, it is like voting against motherhood.

Thev are voting to stop, curtail, halt all work on the tunnel,on the transmission line, on the development - MP. ROWE: That is not so. ~fll. NEARY: ----·- 1t is so, Sir. That is what th~y are doing, Sir, th<>v ilre votinp to ston the -work. They can trv to camouflage :It all they like with their little arguments and their rhetorical nuestions. They cannot 1ustify it and that is why it is hard to understand the make-up of this House.

I presume the Liheral Reform groun will vote in favour of the amendment because their leader has already stated that he believed that all the development should take place in Labrador. So T presume there is no change there. 2256

December 22, 1975, Tape 869, Pa~e 2 -- aph "fR. NF.ARY: The old ~uard Liberals are saying stop, halt the construction, we are against it,until you can dot every "I" and cross everv "T". Now they do not believe in gambling. One time thev were the biggest gamblers in Newfoundland, they were away ahead of Las Vegas. Now they are against gambling. We know, Mr. Speaker, we know that there is a great risk involved in going ahead with this oroject, we may lose. You know, Mr. Speaker, we may end up losing that $55 million or $60 million. It would not be the first time we lost S50 million or $60 million in this Province.

I am hooinl!: that we will not, Sir, but certainly if He interrupt, stop the momentum on the develonment of the Lower Churchill in the way of the> transmission line and the tunnel, f f ore stop that momentum, Sir, the cost w1.ll escalate. If vou ston it for a year or t<m years the cost is go1ng to escalate and it wlll cost the taxpayers of this Province and of Canada a lot more bv the time you get her started up aj!:ain. Maybe the whole thin~ will grind to a halt in another year.

Maybe it will, Sir, but I as a Newfoundlander am nrepared to take that chance and I sincerely hone that it will not stop in a vear's time. Jf it does, you certainly have to give the Minister of ~ines and F.nerp,y and the administration credit for tryinj!:. My God~ Mr. Sneaker, do these hon. gentlemen who are now arguing against this. do they not remember the great battle that took nlace over the oil refinerv at Come Bv Chance? Do thev not remember that? That was a gamble. We heard the same ar~uments from the then Onnosition when they were on this side of the House.

They told us that we were wasting the taxnayer's monev, they were creating all kinds of mechanical ar~uments in their minds, they were throwing all kinrls of obstructions in the way, they were askinj!: all kinds of rhetorical questions, they were trying to create all kinds of doubt just the same as you are gett]ng now, Sir. But those of us who were optimistic, who had faith in the future of this Province kept forginl!; ahead 2257

necember 22, 1975 Tape No. 870 Nr-1 - 1 )~. NEARY:' and as a result the oil refinery became a reality. I am hoping that everyth:l. n~ in connection with the Lower Churchill will become a reality. If it does not, Sir, it will not be my fault. I will have. a c] eat" con!'cience, I tvill he able to point to the members of this hon. House who voted against this resolution and I will be at-le to say, there you go. Arid they will come in and they will pound their breasts and they "rill say, "Hell \Ve told you so.

You are in over yc>ur ears. lole told you so. l-Ie told you it \Vas not going to work. 1 ~f' told you you are goin~ to lose your $55 million or $60 million. " Is that what they are looking forward to a year from nm-!? Sir, as I indicated the other day, the most important thing that tve have to do in this hon. House at this time is to show that we are united on this matter of the development of the Lower Churchill and the transmiss:lon line and the tunnel underneath the Straits of Bell Isle. If we are divided, Sir, we are going to defeat our own purpose. l"r.

Speaker, I have not changed my mind one iota since I spoke the other day on this resolution. I am going to vote against the amendment, Sir. I think the amendment is one of the most stupid, negative exercises that I have ever seen in this hon. House. I t~ould have been glad, Sir, to vote for an amendment that would rule out the first part, everything before ~ovember 28, 1975. · But everything after November 28, ~9757 Sir, everything after following that that the }'inister of Mines and F.nergy (l"r.

Crosbie) and this House of Assembly approves the plans announced by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador for the phased continuation of the project during 1976 1 theyare voting against it, theLiberals~ I never thought, Sir, I would live long enough in this hon. House to see a group of Liberals vote against developing a project as important as the Lower Churchill in this Pr'?vince. I never thought I would live long enough. It t>"ould make you wonder where the Tories are in this hon. House these days, whether they are over there on that side or on this side.

I am goinp, to vote against the amendment, Sir, and I am going to j· vote for the resolution and as I said I am not happy about it . Actually the part of the resolution•that I want to vote for is the part that my hon. friend wants eliminated. It is the first part that I do not want to 2258

r>ecC'mher 22, 1975 Tape No. 870 '!R. NEARY: vote against, and that is the part that the old guard Liberals want to wipe out, the part that dea!s with the development of the Lmvcr Churchi .ll. \~e cannot delay that great project, Sir, one moment longer with inflation rampant, the cost going up.

If ''e delay it nmo, if ''e stop, halt the work, take away all the equipment, it will take years before you r,et her started up again. l.fl1ereas if you spend $55 million or $60 milljon to maintain the momentum, negotiate with Quebec-Hydro, ner,ottate with the Government of Canada to try to ~et yourfinancing arranged, the government itself has to Fet its own priorities .in order. The? Hinister of Hines and Energy (Nr. Croshie) knows that. 1 heard him,I think it was either this morning or last nip.:ht. on radio talking about hm·• the Provincial Government has to get its mm priorities in order.

And that is very, ve~; important, Sir, when you are approaching the Government of Canada, hecause they are probabJy a little bit confused at the moment ,.,.i th the adminif'tration going looking for handouts from Otta<m, looking upon ntta,ra as Santa Claus,asking for all sorts of things, all sorts of backing for projects when "hat they should do is make this the number one federal-provincial priority, make this project the number one federal priority. To do otherwise, }!r. Speaker, vmuld just make a sham of the ~!hole thing.

You cannot go up and ask for a haulout~$1 mHlion; you cannot ask for a golf course,$2.5 million; you cannot ask for infrastructure, v7hich has not attracted one industry to this Province; you cannot ask for development of the Port of St. John's to take the business away from Port aux Basaues; you cannot 2259

December 22, 1975 Tape no.871 Page 1 - mw :1r. Neary. ask for this and that and the other ~oodv. You cannot ask for it, Sir, and expect the Government of Can~da to participate in this great project that is so important to Newfoundland. You have to make this the number one priority of the Government of Canada, of its joint funding of projects. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Mines if he has no other justification in this world for proceeding and spending that $55 million or $60 million on the transmission line and bringing the transmission line up to Happy Valley , that is one thing that is going to result from this project and the continuation of the tunnel underneath the Strait of Belle Isle. He has the justification right in his own hand. It is a make-work project if nothing else.

At least if you continue the project for another year or two so many hundreds of Newfoundlanders will get jobs, will earn wages, will not be forced to go on welfare, will earn wages to support their family, buy food and clothes and pay the retail sales tax on motor cars and televisions and washing machines, and they will pay their income tax, and a part of that will be passed back to the Province. Sir, it is a worthwhile venture no matter how you look at it. Of course, the real justification for it is that we cannot afford to halt that project at this particular time with the way that the cost is escalating.

It will soon be beyond our reach. Mr. Speaker, I submit that the people of this Province will never forgive members of this han. House for voting against the continuation of these three great projects. It is like voting against motherhood, Sir. I do not intend to alter my position. I am going to vote against the amendment, and I am going to vote for the resolution. My fondest wish, Sir, for 1976, if I have one, is that this will be a success, that it will not fail, that the prophets of doom and gloom in this bon. House will be wrong. It is quite conceivable, Sir, that they may be right. Well, so what!

Some of these hon. gentlemen were associated with gambling a few million dollars of the taxpayers' money 2260

December 22, 1975 Mr. Neary. Tape no. 871 Page 2- mw of Newfoundland and of Canada, and they had no hesitation in doing so. Some of it worked out, and some of it dfd not. Now all of a sudden they are going to become cautious. They are going to be careful. They are not prepared to gamble. They are going to convert themselves into Tories.

I presume, Sir, when the minister drafted this resolution he skillfully worded it so it would put fellows like myself on the spot, because the minister knew that any honest, sincere, genuine, any thinking Newfoundlander, would want to go along with the continuation of the Lower Churchill but the little bit of self-praise that is in there, well maybe they would like to be able to vote against that. My hon. friend argues about getting the Newfoundland Hydro Commission before the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities -a red herring, Sir~ a red herring! We are producing the power in this Province.

We are, the people are producing it. We own Newmoundland Hydro, the people, and this House are subsidizing the Newfoundland Hydro, but what we are doing, Mr. Speaker, is about one of the most foolish things that any House or any government could do. We are generating the electricity, we are producing it, and then we are turning it over to a private company to distribute, and they are the ones who make the dividends. They are the ones who make the profits.

They are the ones who go down before the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities, and get their 1.7 per cent increase every month, and that is the reason for the big bills that people are getting now. They are made retroactive right back to April or May sometime. 2261

December 22, 1975 Tape No. 872 NM- 1 MP. NEArY: What good would it do to get the Newfoundland Hydro before the Public Utilities Commission? What good would it be 1 We woulc ~P fighting against ourselves. We rn~ it. What we have to do, Sir, is to get that Newfoundland Light and Power Company provincialized and let the dividends, the profits, let the benefits go to the people of this Province and not to a little handful of shareholders scattered all over this Province. The profits should go back to the people. ~rr. Speaker, I have got a pretty good track record here lately.

I have got the university now to at least come out publicly. They say they \~ill not give the information to the members of the House, they will give it to the press. I r,ot the Board of Commissioners of Puhlic Utilities to halt the increase to Newfoundland Light and Power Company as of this month and maybe for January and Fehruary. My record, Sir - I am almost batting 1,000 right now and I would predict to Your Honour here and now that the day is not too far a~!ay when the Newfoundland Light and Power Company will be taken over by the people of this Province. It is as natural, Sir, as night follo<-~s day.

It is the obvious thing to do. That was where one of the hig blunders was made and I could tell this hon. House, Sir, I have discussed it with the member for Twillingate (l"!r. Smalh10od)' the former Premier of this Province,and he told me that one of the big meetings that he had before the '71 election was '~ith the then Chairman of the Newfoundland Power Commission, the han. gentleman who recommended the forced takeover of Churchill Falls Corporation.

They met over on ~oaches Line- I do not think I am breaking any confidence when I tell the House this- and they met for the purpose of deciding the psychological moment, the opportune time to take over Newfoundland Light and Power Company and so the former Premier of this Province (Mr. Smallwood) had it all firmed up in his mind.

I do not know whether he regrets today that he did not get an opportunity to do it,or he did not do it when he had the opportunity because the opportunity \Jas certainly there, and there (<ere those among us, Sir, who told the administration 11t that time to go all the '~ay, do not produce the power and give it to these little handful of greedy individuals in this Province to get 2262

n~cember 22, 1975 Tape No. 872 NM - 2 ~m. NEAR~ the benefits, let the people who own the production of the poHer, ,,;ho generate the pot-•er, let them get the benefits. And T p.ot knockeo tn the head at the time, Sir. I do not know why hut T had my RUspi.cions, Mr. Speaker. Some of the hon. gentlemen I was reconunending this to were probably sh«reholderf' in the Newfoundland Li.r,ht and Power Company. They are probably the ones that are gettinp, their dividends. These hon. gentlemen are not sitting in the House now, Sir, I do not think they are.

I do not know if there are any hon. gentlemen in the House n01~ who are shareholders in the Newfoundland tight and Power Company. AN HON. , IFJtBF,r.: Not on our salary. }~. NEARY: On your salary, no good. So, ~rr. Speaker, I hope, Sir, th;tt members of this House will throw aside partisan - ~·R. ROUSSEAU: According to my last light bill I should he. ~. NEARY: Well I guess we are all shareholders in that regard. }m. DOODY: We should nationalize you and send up good cheer. MR. NEARY: Oh,there!

I ~~as over on Bell Island yesterday and I did not ?.P.t very good reports about the hon. gentleman, and the hon. gentleman had hetter start doing his homework. "R. DOODY: Are you coming hack? }~. NEARY: He may eat these 1mrds, Sir, he used on television on election night yet. He may have to eat these words. ~1R. SPEAKER (DR . COLLINS): Order, please! MR. NF.Ar.Y: But, l"r. Speaker, if the administratjon made any mistake, Sir, there it is. That is the most unforgivable sin of all, that they omitted to go all the way and take over the Newfoundland Light and Pm.rcr Company.

I do not kno•..r whether they have it in their mind now but certainly, Sir, it is the obvious thing to do, the only way the con!'lumer is goi.nr to he. protected against these rip-off artif'ts. Mr. Speaker, T am not going to speak very much longer on this particular matter. h'e are almost up to Christmas Eve, Sir, not the time thnt you '·.'ould he expected to he debating a matter as important as this in the House 2263

necemher 22, 1975, Tape 873, Pap,e 1 -- apb MR. ~ARY: of Assemhlv. I know members Are anxious to r,et out of the House to Jl;et readv for Christmas but, Sir,we have the matter before us and we have to take the right decision. TVhether it is a has ty decision, "hether we are going too fast, too slm~. we have to take a decision. It looks like we are going to be forced to take a vote and if we are, Sir, then I am p,oing to vote against this amendment and I am goin~ to vote in favour of the resolution. I have only one piece of advice for my hon. former colleagues and that is to say how disappointed -you know, Mr.

Sneaker, I am•not voting for it because it is a popular thing. I can tell you right now, Sir, that the unemploved and the people of this Province are looking to this House to come up with some make- work pro1ects, to come up with pro.1ects that will create 1obs. There is nothing on the drawing hoard at the moment. This is the onlv ray of light they have, the only hope they have, and here are mv former colleagues going to vote against it.

Why if you 1ust went down there, Sir, and carried on for the next year and created 700 or 800 or 900 or 1,000 .1obs and paid people wages and salaries it would be worth it even if the whole thinp. flopped and went down the drain,and I do not wish that for one moment. I am extremel.v disappointed, Sir, that the official Opposition, the so-called Liherals,are votinr. against development of this Province. You will never !!;et all the answers, "'r. !'ipeaker. I could stand up here now if I wanted to and I could fire ouestions at the administration until Doomsday.

You will never get all the answers. vou have to p.o ahead, sort out the problems as they arise. That is the only way vou will ever p.et it done. I remember one time a certain gentleman, a clergyman on llell Island used to say to me,the heat committee in the world was a committee of three; oneperson dead,another one with one foot in the r.rave and the other one active. Well, Sir, I think in this case this principle should apply. Go ahead and do it. We could stay here until next Christmas 1 for that matter,asking questions, making statements, creating doubt and the project would never get off the 2264

December 22, 1975, Tape 873, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: ground let alone get comnleted. So, Sir, my advice to my hon. former colleagues is to think this over seriously before they vote on it,because it will ever be recorded, Mr. Sneaker, in the Hansard, in the records of this Housf',that a )l:roul' of T.iberals voted a!!;ainst the development of a ma.1or pro .1ect in this 'Province. I know now that there are those among them who cannot l~ait to get un and say oh no, the memheT for taPoile (Mr. Neary) twistec:l and turned and weaved and bobbed and said we are voting against this,but that is what they are doing, Sir.

They can camouflage it all thev likP, they can say oh, we have to have the answer to this and we have to have the ansl~er to that and we have to dot this "I" and we have to cross this "T" and they can make legalistic mountains out of little political molehills but the fact still remains, Sir, they are voting against the continuation of the development of these three great pro.1 ects. The People of Newfoundland, I imar,ine, will take note of that, Sir, when it is reported in the press and radio .

You have the Tory Government,who I never thought in my wildest ima)l:ination would nationalize the Churchill falls CoTnoTation, a socialistic nrincil'le - MR. DOODY: l.le never did. MR. NEARY: ----- I never thought they would do it, Sir. MR. OOODY: He never did it. Mil. NEARY: Thev did not do it? They did do it, Sir. Whether they did it through negotiation or whether it was - l~ell it was not thro.u!!;h negotiation there was an - MR. DOODY: We made them an offer thev could not resist. MR.

NF.ARY: ------ They made them an offer they could not refuse and then they put a bill on the Order Paper to force the takeover if they din not accept the offer. They nationalized the Churchill Falls Corporation, Sir, which was not a bad move although I still think it was ill-timed. Nevertheless, Sir, you would neveT think,Mr. Speaker, in your wildest imagination, Your Honour when he joined the Tory Party and led the Tory Party for awhile in this Ron. House~ 2265

December 22, 1975 Tape no. 874 Page 1 - mw Mr. Neary. never thought for one minute that he would ever see his old buddies, the hon. crowd sitting over there now follow the socialistic tendencies and nationalize the Churchill Falls Corporation. It is too bad, Sir, they did not go all the way and also nationalize the Newfoundland Light and Power Company. Mr.

Speaker, before I take my seat I have again to repeat, Sir:, although this is not important and completely irrelevant to the debate, although my former colleagues thought it was most important, was the fact that there was a deal with the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood). There was a deal, Sir, and that is why they made such a MR. ROBERTS: Did you write this, 'Bill'? MR. NEARY: No, Bill did not write it. I do not need anybody to write my speeches for me, and ~ spend my time in the House, Sir, and I am not a little rich boy. I have common sense.

I was not sent away in knee pants to a boys' school somewhere on the mainland. I am a Newfoundlander, Sir. Look! I even talk like a Newfoundlander, and I act and look like a Newfoundlander. When I get on the television, they understand the language. somewhere. I do not look like I am from Ontario MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the hon. gentleman to perhaps marshall his remarks with respect to the amendment. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, it has all to do with the amendment because no doubt, Mr. Speake,, we will be called upon in the months ahead and in the years ahead to debate this great matter on television.

When I get on, Sir, the people of this Province will know where I stand. They will know that I have taken a position. MR. YOUNG: You will have long pants on for working. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, I do not know, but I certainly will not look very scruffy looking. At least, I will comb my hair. 2266

December 22, 1975 Tape no. 874 Page 2 - mw Mr.· Neary. Hr. Speaker, the hon. member for Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood) has taken a position. The hon. member for St. John's East (Hr. Marshall) has taken a position. The hon. member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) has taken a position. The government have t~ken a position, and I have taken a position. My position. is, Sir, that I am going to join with the government as much as I - AN HON. MEMBER: Hate them. MR. NEARY: ~~ MR. NEARY: No, I do not hate them, but as much as !-grudgingly, Sir. You do not show it.

No, grudginly I am going to vote with the administration, because I know this project is in the best interest of Newfoundland, and I know, Sir. Look! I want to make a statement now, Mr. Speaker, that on this matter of the development of the Lower Churchill that this administration have made numerous mistakes MR. ROUSSEAU: You are taking this stand jn case you become Minister of Finance. MR. NEARY: No, in case I become Premier. I am aiming a little higher than that, Mr. Speaker, they have made mistakes, and I know they are going to continue to make mistakes on this project.

God only knows, I have never seen one yet. If you are developing a project, and it only cost $10,000, you are boUnd to make mistakes are you not? This one is going to cost $1.2 billion. There are going to be a a few mistakes. As long as there is no graft and corruption, as long as there is no dishonesty and no deceit, Sir- and I will be here acting as a watchdog to make sure that there is no favouritism in granting contracts, that the public tendering procedure will be used in all cases - there will be no favouritism, no fr~ends of the -~overnment ~etting the contracts.

As long_as the work is done conscientiously, and everything is carried out according to Hoyle, as long as that is done, Sir, there will be no argument from me. 2267

December 22, 1975 Tape no. 874 Page 3 - IIIW MR. CARTER: Sit down! MR. NEARY: The bon. member for St. John's North (~r. Carter) now would love for me to sit down. He is over there now, he is smarting under the attack. He i .s having pangs of conscienc .e. If I stay on my feet long enough I might be able to convince him as a Newfoundlander to do the right thing. So, Mr. S-peaker, as I said earlier, I am. going i:o -you know, Mr. Speaker, I just got a Christams card from a gentleman over on the opposite side of the House. I will have to read the poem before I sit down.

Maybe this will encourage members, who are going to vote against this resolution, Sir, to vote in favour of it: "When shall all men's good, be each man's rule and universal peace lie like a shaft of light across the land." Alfred Lord Tennyson. I have to say this , Mr. Speaker, before I take my seat. Of all my years in public life, Sir, I have gotten more Chrtitmas cards from ministers and members of that side of the House. I have yet to get one Christmas card, I think, from members on this side of the House. I do not know, 2268

December 22, 1975 Tape no. 875 Page 1 - NH MR. NEARY: Sir, if coming events cast their shadows before them or not, but I want to thank all the members who have sent me cards, including the hon. gentleman and his good wife who sent this card to me today. So, Mr. Speaker, for the sake of Newfoundland, Sir, I hope that I have, if nothing else, knocked a little bit of sense into the people on this side of the House and that they will vote for continuation of these three great projects that affect the future so drastically in Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition, MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, what I have to say will not take very long. I believe it is worth saying so I shall say it. It is now twenty after five and 1 believe the only other bon. member who wishes to speak - there may be some of whom I do not have knowledge-but I think the hon. gentleman in whose name the motion stands, the Hinister of Hines and Energy (lfr. Crosbie) wishes to speak either to the amendment or to close the debate. I assume one speech will do and I for one would hope that we would be able to conclude this matter this afternoon.

Before I launch into my few remarks may I in a spirit of Christian charity and it being Christmas and all of us being merry and believing as I do in the beatitudes that the meek shall inherit the earth, may I on behalf of all of us, Sir, wish the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) a very happy and Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year. If he has not been sent any Christmas cards from here I humbly crave to beg apology and to beg pardon - .fAPT WINSOR: There are still some here. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry? CAPT. WINSOR: There are still some here. MR.

ROBERTS: My bon. friend from Fogo (Captain Winsor) reminds me that some have not been sent out. But in a spirit of Christian charity and because it is Christmas and because we are all overflowing with good will1 and some perhaps with good spirits, you know, a Merry Christmas 'ndeed to the hon. gentleman. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are one or two points> I think,which should be made and which I wish to try to make with respect to this amendment because, Sir, I intend to vote in favour of the amendment. I intend to 2269

nt>cC?mher 22, 1975 Tape No. 875 NN - 2 "!P Rr11lF.RTS: Ruppert the? a111endment and I intend to ask for a record<>rl vote on the amendment because I bf'l:leve it is an tmnortant matter. NoH, Si.r, the reason Hhy IJe have put this amendment dmm t•lll.S ~i ven hy my fr1 end and colleague from Trin:l . ty - Bay de Verde (Mr. ~owe) in what he said,and I do not know if he nRed these exact uords hut this tvas the p:ist of one of his points, that th:l.s is a t·•a.y of separa.t:lng the two questions and we believe there are two ouest ions. I think even the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (1'\'.r.

Neary), t<ho disagrees with so much of what anybody else says and ap:rees only "f th Phnt he says, I think the hon . p:entleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) would agrC'e with th<lt point that there are really two separate ouestions. And I •muld merely point out, Sir, to the HouRe that a vote in favour of this amendment i.s a vote against the government's pllms to procePd in thE' way they have outlined for the coming year ,., l th respect to the Lo••er Churchill development and its ancillary developments. That is the reason to vote in favour of the amendment. Yon mav flay, !'r.

SpeaJ.:er, a vote against the 1\•hole motion is that but a vote against the tvholc motion is a very cleverly- I am sorrv the motion has been put together :In a very clever attempt to try to win the support of hon. gentlemen 1vho feel that the governme .nt have not done the right thing but that the government are proposing to do the right thing Hhich is the position in which my hon. friend from La Poi le (t<r. 'leary) finds himself or equally the support of hon. gentlemen tVho feel that the government have done the right thing hut is not proposi .nr: to do the right th1ng as is the case as they stated in the House of the ron. gentlemRn from St.

John's North (Mr. Carter) and the hon. p,entleman from St. John's East (Hr. Marshall), each of whom stood jn th e T!ouRe and if I reproduce I think the gist of what they had to R?.V they Rai rl, "We thinl ' the government have done '"ell in what they have clone, but we are not prepared to support what they propose to do." Now, ~jr, the government refused to split the motion as I believe they should have, but in any event they did not. Accordingly He have put down this amendmC?nt because it .i.s a t-ray for meM't>ers to rr.cord their feelings wlth 2270

~eccnbc r 22 , 1975 Tape No. 875 !1..,. - 3 ''l'. <tORF.RTS: respect to the tt:o st>pa rate and distinct mat tt'rs in thls oT!e motion . Fo r "1Y pArt , Si r. T in t end to vote ar.ainst the motion as Amended or as not amP.ndecl simply bt'cause l do no t annrove, nor c\o r.l" cnllm1p.ues here. of the way in which the gover1ll!lent have handled c"r li'I·~P. r r11urchlll matter since they took it o ve r. Nor do ap,rov~ of the pla ns whiclt they h~vr outlined in res pect of the cnll'inp vr.:t r. Thr arp~nents 1 do not need to $!.0 over. "v '"Jon. fri e nd from Trtni ty - Bav de VPrd e (t"r . ll.ot~

e) made th(' arrumcnt . The "nn . l!,entlenan fro:n B<tie \'crte - White Say ('t r . "1de out) spok e, the '"ton. p,entle~".an fro111 l.etli sportc (}<r. White) spoke , They all mnde i.t nuftc clP.ar c x11ctly 11hrrr we s t ood and why . So J do oot need to r.o ove r thP.m no~· . The 2271

December 22, 1975 Tape no.876 Page 1 - mw Mr. Roberts. han. gentleman from St. John's West (Mr. Crosbie), the Minister of Mines and Energy will doubtless reply, and he will try to deal with some of these points and give us his side or the side he and his colleagues take, well and good, all to the good. Mr. Speaker, for our part, Sir, we do not like the way in which the government have handled the development since they took it over, and we have made that clear. In every opportunity we have had we voted against i~ Nor do we like the way in which the government propose to proceed.

It is no difficulty for us to vote against the entire motion, and we intend to do so, but han. gentlemen opposite, Sir, have made it clear that they are in some difficulty, some of them, as is the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary). He has resolved his difficulty, well and good. Other hon. gentlemen can resolve theirs as they see fit, and this gives them a way to do it. Now, ~tr. Speaker, let me deal with just one or two other•points that I think are worthwhile.

I would ask the Minister of Mines and Energy if)when he speaks 7 he could let us have the information as to the interest rate, the current interest rate of the loan made by the government, borrowed by the government and now in the hands of CFLCo in respect of the monies which they spent to purchase the shares. I would ask him if he would tell us just what the rate is. We do not know what it is. We know it is somewhere over ten per cent or we believe it to be somewhere over ten per cent at which stage it is our belief, and I outlined the argument at some length when I spoke on the main motion itself, Mr.

Speaker, it is our belief that the shares, the investment will never pay for itself. Hon. gentlemen opposite may take a different conclusion, but they will do so only by adding in all the moaey which we get from Churchill Falls. I think we should add in only that money which we get as a result of the shares which we purchased. The money that we would have gotten with or without the purchase of the shares, Mr. Speaker, can hardly be taken to support the.money we must pay to buy the shares. The only 2272

December 22, 1975 Tape no. 876 ' Page 2 - Mr. Roberts. money that can be used or justifiably so used to pay off the cost of those shares,if they are to be a good investment in dollar terms, the only money that can be used for that, Mr. Speaker, is the money which those shares earn. As I understand it, at a certain rate of interest>that purchase does not become economical. All I ask is that the minister give us the rate of interest, and then we can see where we go from there. Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to the han. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr.

Neary), and I do not intend to enga~e in the debate in the way in which he did, but he did make one or two points that I think are worthy of some ~omment, and so I shall say a word or two about them. Let me say first of all that whatever arguments there may be in favour of the Lower Churchill project going ahead this year, the argument which he made is not one of them. If it is simply to be a make-work project, Sir, then mw it should not go ahead ever on any terms. That is not the justification for it. It may be an economic development project. Indeed I believe it is.

I do not like tha way the government are handling it, but I think it could be and should be and will be and must be a very major part of the economic development of this Province. But a make-work project, Sf;, that is an out-of-date idea. Franklin Roosevelt rejected that forty years ago in the new deal, and I am surprised that in this day and age a gentleman as economically sophisticated as the han. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) should put it forth for that reason.

It is an outdated, misguided, discredited concept, a worthy one in motive, because the unemployment rate in this Province is staggering and the government are doing nothing about it. But, Sir, this is not the way to create jobs, not the construction jobs. That is not enough. To talk of it only in the sense of producing construction jobs 1which is what the hon. gentleman meant and what he said in so many words, that is a completely weak and fallacious argument. To spend $55 million, Sir, for the few hundred jobs, which will result if this work goes ahead 2273

• December 22, 1975 Tape no. 876 Page 3 - mw Mr. Roberts. this year the way the government outlined it, that, Mr. Speaker, to my way of thinking,is just the wrong ar.gument in favClllr of it. If I was tempted to vote for it that argument would have put me off. Now the other point I think which the han. gentleman made is that somehow by voting, as we