Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 66B (40th Legislature, 2nd Session)

40-2-66b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Fortieth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Daryl Reid Speaker Vol. LXV No. 66B - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, June 27, 2013 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Fortieth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital NDP ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson NDP BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli NDP BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park NDP BRAUN, Erna Rossmere NDP BRIESE, Stuart Agassiz PC CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East NDP CHIEF, Kevin, Hon. Point Douglas NDP CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan NDP CROTHERS, Deanne St.

James NDP CULLEN, Cliff Spruce Woods PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FRIESEN, Cameron Morden-Winkler PC GAUDREAU, Dave St. Norbert NDP GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Liberal GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge NDP IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Richmond NDP JHA, Bidhu Radisson NDP KOSTYSHYN, Ron, Hon. Swan River NDP LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. Dawson Trail NDP MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns NDP MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor, Hon. Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel NDP MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East PC NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake NDP OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River NDP PALLISTER, Brian Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PETTERSEN, Clarence Flin Flon NDP REID, Daryl, Hon. Transcona NDP ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Kewatinook NDP RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia NDP ROWAT, Leanne Riding Mountain PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron St. Paul PC SELBY, Erin, Hon. Southdale NDP SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo PC STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin NDP SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto NDP WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas NDP WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WIGHT, Melanie Burrows NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC Vacant Morris

2859 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 27, 2013 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Speaker: Good afternoon, everyone. Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Municipal Amalgamations–Reversal Mr. Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie ): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And this is the reason–the background for this petition is as follows: The provincial government recently announced plans to amalgama te any municipalities with fewer than a thousand constituents.

The provincial government did not consult with or notify the affected municipalities of their decision prior to the Throne Speech announcement on November 19th, 2012, and has further imposed unrealistic deadlines. If the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local democratic representation will be drastically limited while not providing any real improvement or–in cost savings. Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infrastructure funding and timely flood compensation.

Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any amalgamations should be voluntary in nature and led by the municipalities themselves. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Local Government afford local governments the respect they deserve and reserve his decision to force– reverse his dec ision to force municipalities with fewer than a thousand constituents to amalgamate. This petition is signed by V. Pedersen, I. Kames and R. Nychuk and many, many more fine Manitobans. Mr.

Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to have been received by the House. Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for the petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is signed by R. Hutlet, S. Hutlet, R. Onichlnski and many, many more fine Manitobans, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Riding Mountain): [interjection] You've got your coaster attached. Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

And these are the reasons for the petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election. Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legal, required referendum. An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

2860 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 27, 2013 Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is signed by C. Ireland, R. Cadieux, D. Sawchuk and many, many more Manitobans. Municipal Amalgamations–Reversal Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Midland): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

The background to this petition is as follows: The provincial government recently announced plans to amalgamate any municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents. The provincial government did not consult with or notify the affected municipalities of this decision prior to the Throne Speech announcement on November 19th, 2012, and has further imposed unrealistic deadlines. If the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local democratic representation will be drastically limited while not providing any real improvements in cost savings.

Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infrastructure funding and timely flood compensation. Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any amalgamations should be voluntary in nature and led by the municipalities themselves. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Local Government afford local governments the re spect they deserve and reverse his decision to force municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents to amalgamate.

And this petition is signed by B. Boskwick, J. Boskwick, R.D. McIntyre and many more fine Manitobans. Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election. Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their de mocratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. And this is signed by L. Ga naille, E. Thompson and V. Zvomik and many others, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Cliff Cullen (Spruce Woods): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not t o raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is signed by D. Elliott, K. Dowd, A. Moore and many other fine Manitobans.

June 27, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2861 Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Good afternoon. I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election. Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is submitted on behalf of L. Farmer, S. Harris, P. Jenkyns and many other fine Manitobans. Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): I wi sh to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to incre ase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. And, Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by N. Derkach, J. Wright, J. Hamilton and many, many others. Hydro Capital Development–NFAT Review Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur- Virden): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And these are the reasons for this petition: * (13:40)

(1) Manitoba Hydro was mandated by the provincial government to commence a $21- billion capital development plan to service uncertain electricity export markets.

(2) In the last five years, competition from alternative energy sources is decreasing the price and demand for Manitoba's hydroelectricity and causing the financial viability of this capital plan to be questioned.

(3) The $21- billion capital plan requires Manitoba Hydro to increase domestic electricity rates by up to 4 per cen t annually for the next 20 years and possibly more if export opportunities fail to materialize. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro create a complete and transparent needs-for-and-alternatives-to review of Manitoba Hydro's total capital development plan to ensure the financial viability of Manitoba Hydro. And this petition is signed by R. Archer, V. Cummer, B. Cummer and many, many others, Mr. Speaker.

Mount Agassiz Ski Area–Recreation Facility Mr. Stuart Briese (Agassiz): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: For several decades, the Mount Agassiz ski area, home to the highest vertical between Thunder Bay and the Rocky Mountains, was a popular skiing and snowboarding destination for Manitobans and visitors alike. The operations of the Mount Agassiz ski area were very important to the local economy, not only creating jobs but also generating sales of goods and services at area businesses.

In addition, a thriving rural economy generates tax revenue that helps pay for core provincial

2862 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 27, 2013 government servic es and infrastructure which benefits all Manitobans. Although the ski facility closed in 2000, there remains strong interest in seeing it reopened, and Parks Canada is committed to conducting a feasibility study with respect to the Agassiz site and future opportunities in this area. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:

(1) To request the appropriate 'memb' –ministers of the provincial government to consider outlining to Parks Canada the importance that a viable recreation facility in the Mount Agassiz area would play in the local and provincial economies.

(2) To request that the appropriate minister of the provincial government consider working with all stakeholders, including Parks Canada, to help develop a plan for a viable mult iseason recreation facility in the Mount Agassiz area. This petition is signed by L. Cobbe, S. Cobbe, E. Greenwood and many, many other fine Manitobans. Municipal Amalgamations–Reversal Mr. Reg Helwer (Brandon West): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The provincial government recently announced plans to amalgamate any municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents.

(2) The provincial government did not consult with or notify the affected municipalities of this decision prior to the Throne Speech announcement on November 19th, 2012, and has further imposed unrealistic deadlines.

(3) If the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local democratic r epresentation will be drastically limited while not providing any real improvements in cost savings.

(4) Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infrastructure funding and timely flood compensation.

(5) Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any amalgamations should be voluntary in nature and led by the municipalities themselves. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Local Government afford local governments the respect they deserve and reverse his decision to forts –force municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents to amalgamate. Signed by K. McAuley, M. McAuley, R. Towler and many other Manitobans. Mr. Ron Schuler (St. Paul): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The provincial government recently announced plans to amalgamate any municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents.

(2) The provincial government did not consult with or notify the affected municipalities of this decision prior to the Throne Speech announcement on November 19th, 2012, and has further imposed unrealistic deadlines.

(3) If the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local democratic representation will be drastically limited while not providing any real improvements in cost savings.

(4) Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infrastructure funding and timely flood compensation.

(5) Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any amalga mations should be voluntary in nature and led by the municipalities themselves. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Local Government afford local governments the respect they deserve and reverse h is decision to force municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents to amalgamate. This is signed by J. McCallister, D. McCallister, B. McCallister and many, many other McCallisters. Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mr. Dennis Smook (La Verend rye): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

June 27, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2863 These are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determin e when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government not to raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is signed by V. Stamler, J. Bruyère and L. Nelmor and many more fine Manitobans. Mr. Ca meron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for the petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. And this petition is signed by J. Wiens, K. Wiebe, L. Wiebe and many, many others. Municipal Amalgamations–Reversal Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And the background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The provincial government recently announced plans to amalgamate any municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents.

(2) The provincial government did not consult with or notify the affected municipalities of their decision prior to the Throne Speech announcement on November 19th, 2012, and has further imposed unrealistic deadlines.

(3) If the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local democratic representation wil l be drastically limited while not providing any real improvement in cost savings.

(4) Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infr astructure funding and timely flood compensation. * (13:50)

(5) Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any amalgamations should be voluntary in nature and led by the municipalities themselves. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Local Government afford local governments the respect they deserve and reverse his decision to force municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents to amalgamate. And this petition has been signed by G. Al oro, A. Champion, Y. Derkach and many, many more fine Manitobans. Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Yes, good afternoon, Mr. Speaker.

I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase of the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

2864 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 27, 2013

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. And, Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by C. Briem, O. Brum, J. Froese and many, many other Manitobans. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Stan Struthers (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the 2012 Annual Report for the Civil Service Superannuation Board.

And I'm pleased to table also the Province of Manitoba Report of Amounts Paid or Payable to Members of the Assembly fo r the fiscal year ended March 31, 2013. Mr. Speaker: Any further tabling of reports? Seeing none– Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today 15 Red Hat ladies under the direction of Irene S chmidtke. This group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen). On behalf of honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon.

Also–order, please. Als o seated in the public gallery, we have with us today Dick Derret t and Stewart Clark representing the Phoenix Football Club. These folks are the guests of the honourable member for Rossmere (Ms. Braun). Also in the public gallery, we have Sandra Rogan, director of Horizons Children's Centre, and Ron Blatz, director of Discovery Children's Centre, who are the guests of the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Crothers).

And also in the public gallery, we have Bev Betz, Stephanie Wallis, Jane Cory and Kev in Reid, all from the Collège Saint- Norbert, who are the guests of the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Gaudreau). On behalf of all honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS PST Increase Communications Strategy Mr. Bri an Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): Let me begin, Mr. Speaker, by just wishing you and all members of this Chamber, their families and everyone who works here with us and all Manitobans a wonderful Canada Day weekend.

And one of the things that we should reflect on, of course, on this–in this coming weekend, and always, is the qualities that make Canada so great: the respectful right to equality that we so–all support, the right to vote, the freedoms that we enjoy that we should never take for granted. One of those is freedom of the press. S o I want to ask the Premier about that. Imagine this, Mr.

Speaker: an experienced journalist calls a taxation office of the provincial government last Friday, speaks to an official and learns that the Finance–the tax department wanted to send a PST hike notice out a month ago, but politicians said no and interfered with that. He runs the story at 3 o'clock, and he receives a phone call minutes later from the Premier's communications staff claiming the story is false, demanding it be pulled and that a retra ction and correction be broadcast. I have to ask the Premier: What right does the Premier have to engage his staff in attempts to muzzle the media in this province?

Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the narrative the member has put on the recor d is actually quite inaccurate. First and foremost, the day the budget was delivered in the Legislature was the day that online all the tax changes, taxes being reduced, including taxes on bicycle helmets, including sales tax on children's clothing, whic h members put on, all the taxes being reduced, all the taxes being increased, were put on the record on the 16th. Over and above that, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Struthers) took a measure not done before in Manitoba.

He put an additional bulletin out this spring above the normal requirements, above all the notice that had been provided. And that was what was done to ensure all Manitobans knew those tax changes which become into effect on the day of the budget, in the case of tobacco tax on May 1st, in the case of the bicycle helmet tax reduction, and on

June 27, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2865 July 1st for other measures, both up and down in the tax code, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Pallister: Mr. Speaker, the Premier's spinners are out of control, and he's got to take control of them, because the fact of the matter is the Premier's spinner told the radio official that the person he talked to was not a Finance official, which is pretty comical considering the reporter actually dialed the phone, talked to the official for 25 minutes. That's disrespectful to the reporter.

Now, the official also said –the communications official also said it's probably a case of, quote, gotcha journalism, somebody claiming to be a private citizen, which clearly implies that civil servants in this province wouldn't be truthful with the media they called. Now, that's an insult to all civil servants as well. Now, the spinner said, and I quote: It's completely factually inaccurate and fraudulent. And they demanded that it not be aired again and that a correction be broadcast, which is way out of line.

That is an insult to all Manitobans who value the freedoms we should be c elebrating this coming weekend. Manitobans do not deserve a state-controlled media. When did the Premier stop respecting freedom of the press? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, the –I will table for the Legislature the copies of the bulletin that were put out in June. I've alr eady informed the House that the budget was posted online in terms of any tax changes the day the budget was introduced in the Legislature, April 16th. And I will say to the member opposite, freedom of the press is a very important and necessary freedom in a democracy.

And, when somebody sees that they have been quoted in a story as having talked to a reporter and they do not believe they have talked to a reporter, we have a responsibility to verify what actually happened. If somebody talks to an official in one of our departments and they do not disclose that they are from the media and they do not indicate that they have recorded something, that is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker. Once everything was clarified and the full story was made clear that, in fact, that is –was somebody from a radio station, then, of course, all the information was dealt with within a period of two hours.

Freedom of speech was– Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. Order, please. The minister's time has expired. Referendum Request Mr. Pallister: The Premier puts false information on the record. This is not radio Moscow we're talking about. This is Manitoba, okay? And it turns out that the Premier is just repeating tired old talking points from his $12-million communications shop, which is out of control. Now, the Premier spent the last several weeks making us the boogeyman as best he can. But fear is what is omnipresent in his conduct, fear. He is afraid of honest reporters asking honest questions.

He's afraid of honest civil servants giving honest answers. And, most of all, Mr. Speaker, he is afraid of Manitobans. He tries to make Manitobans afraid. But the fact is it's the Premier who's afraid. He's afraid to ask Manitobans for their views. He's afraid to listen to their views. And if he's–if I'm wrong and he's not afraid, then why doesn't he call a referendum on the PST? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, because we're talking about freedom of the press, I would like to give some quotes from an editorial that was done about this very unfortunate incident.

The PCs started the day by accusing the NDP of media tampering–seems to be [inaudible] Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. * (14:00) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I'm having increasing difficulty hearing both the questions and the answers. If the re was a breach of the rules, I'm sure honourable members would want me to make a ruling on that, so I'm asking for co-operation of all honourable members. Please allow me to hear both the questions and the answers posed. The honourable First Minister, to continue. Mr.

Selinger: And the editorial goes on to say this is a highly serious allegation in the media world, so we followed up on it –and that's one of our local newspapers, they followed up on it. And they say it takes a lot of guts to do that, because if you're wrong, you risk making everything else you say afterwards suspect. Cough, cough, Rob Ford, cough.

2866 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 27, 2013 Anyway, so media tampering: we read the Progressive Conservative's press release and ask some questions. We listen to the tape. We start making phone calls, and it's just not adding up. We track down the reporter from the Swan River radio station who fully admits that (1) he's a businessman that owns the radio station and fell into reporting; (2) that he didn't identify himself as a reporter to the Finance guy; (3) he quoted the Finance guy anyway; and (4) he doesn't like how the NDP run everything through– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Minister's time is expired.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Orde r, please. We're–order, please. We've already wasted about a minute of question-period time, which I'm sure all honourable members know is very precious time. PST Increase Request to Delay Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): In a PST debate this morning in this very Chamber, an NDP MLA finally admitted what we all know, and he said, and I quote: Yes, we like to spend money. End quote. Mr. Speaker, truer words have never been spoken, and all of that spending has led to this PST hike.

Tonight, public hearings on Bill 20 start, and there are over 200 speakers lined up to speak to these presentations. I'd like to ask the Premier (Mr. Selinger) if he will show respect for the process and for the speakers and delay implementation of the PST hike until he has shown that proper respect. Hon. Jennifer Howard (Acting Premier): I think it's interesting in this House that we're talking about– that we would ask a question like this about respect when everybody on that side of the House just stood and applauded a practice of taping somebody without their consent.

That's the kind–that–audio recording somebody without their consent, that is the kind of world that the members opposite applaud. That is exactly the kind of situation that we're seeing right now under debate in t he United States, where people's phone calls are taped without their consent, and that, as we go into Canada Day, that's the kind of democracy they applaud. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): Point of order, Sir. On a point of order.

Yesterday in the scrum I was taped by nine NDP communications staffers out there –I think it was around nine –without any permis sion being given. I've been taped repeatedly by NDP communications staffers without giving any permission. If the members opposite want to make the point that people need to get permission to do tapings, let them start making sure that their 192 communications staff get permission from everyone they tape before they tape them. When they've taken that action, they will be standing on noble ground.

Until they take that action, let them think and reflect on the illogic of the assertion just made by the member opposite. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House–or honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Ms. Howard: Well, Mr. Speaker, my point was that that tape was made without the awareness of the person being taped, and certainly if the member opposite can count the number of people, I assume he's aware that they're holding microphones. But you know what? If I had said some of the things that he has said recently, I would be worried about who's listening too.

If I had gone on the radio and said, you know what, two- tier health care is a system we need in Manitoba, I would be worried that somebody would record that. If I had gone out and said, you know what Manitobans need? Some tough love. You know what we need? We need a return to the '90s when I was around the Cabinet table and we were firing nurses and teachers. That's the way to go. If I had those opinions, Mr. Speaker, I'd be worried about who was listening also. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Order, please.

On the point of order raised by the Official Opposition House Leader–and I thank all honourable members for their advice on the point of order –I didn't hear which rule had been breached that would allow me to make a ruling on this matter. So I must respectfully indicate to the House that there is no

June 27, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2867 point of order since that there was no rule referenced with respect to having been broken. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for Charleswood, I believe, has the floor. Referendum Request Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, this NDP government lied to Manitobans in the last election. So they have no credibility standing up here and making any comments like the minister just did. Mr. Speaker, today, the Manitoba Chambers of Commerce called on the NDP to respect the legislative process and delay implementation of the PST hike until Bill 20 is passed .

They also said that they needed more time for the implementation. So the best way to resolve all of that would be for the NDP to obey the law and call a referendum. I'd like to ask the Premier (Mr. Selinger) today: Will he do that? Hon. Stan Struthers (Minister of Finance ): Well, Mr. Speaker, in prebudget consultations that I can– that I had with the chamber, they said to us there's an infrastructure gap that needs to be addressed. They encouraged us to assign 1 per cent of the PST towards that. They sa id to us we should be bold in our approach.

We have put in place a measure that will provide the revenue that'll invest in hospitals and schools and roads and bridges, Mr. Speaker, will invest in daycares. These are the priorities of the people of Manitoba, as opposed to members opposite who have been very clear that they would do across-the-board, indiscriminate cuts to every department of government, including Health, including Education, including Infrastructure and Transportation. I think our vision of the future of Manitoba is way more progressive than theirs. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The minister's time has expired.

PST Increase Referendum Request Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): The member for Dauphin promised business owners of Roblin no new taxes. Gerald Stuart, the owner of Home Hardware in Roblin, is one of those business owners. His business will be unable to grow with fewer customers and the town will have a hard time retaining people with lower taxes just a few kilometres away. Mr. Speaker, it's not too late. Will the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) today listen to the Roblin chamber of commerce and abide by the law and call a referendum? Hon. Stan Struthers (Minister of Finance ): Well, Mr.

Speaker, Gerald is a very good business person. He's a very fine citizen of the very good community of Roblin, Manitoba. There's no doubt about that. That community as well as other communities in Manitoba benefit year after year after year because we are the most –one of the most affordable provinces in this country in which to live.

Not just Gerald Stuart at his place of business, but all the citizens who live in Roblin and other communities in Manitoba benefit greatly because we have the lowest hydro rates, because we have the lowest home heating, because we have the lowest bundle of hydro and home heating and Autopac. That's a real advantage that the citizens of Roblin and Mr. Stuart– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The minister's time has expired. Mr. Graydon: Mr. Speaker, this member campaigned aggressively on no new taxes in Roblin. The Roblin chamber of commerce was not consulted in–on the PST increase.

They were promised in 2011 that there would be no new taxes. Gerald Stuart was promised no new taxes. His business will be unable to grow. His customers are leaving for Saskatchewan each and every day. It's not too late for this minister. Will the member for Dauphin listen to Gerald and call a referendum? Mr. Struthers : Mr. Speaker, I campaigned aggressively to protect health care for Manitobans, and that's what we're doing. I campaigned aggressively to protect education and to fund at the rate of the growth of the economy, and that's what we're doing.

I campaigned aggre ssively in Roblin to protect infrastructure, to invest in infrastructure, to invest in roads and to invest in bridges. And it's absolutely clear in Budget 2013, as in every other budget we've presented, that we're doing that too. * (14:10) PST Increase Referendum Request Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Midland): Municipalities across the province are forced to pay the PST on their purchases. Last year, with the expansion of the PST to insurance premiums and other items,

2868 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 27, 2013 the Manitoba municipalities paid in excess of $20 million. This year, with a 14 per cent rise in the PST, the spenDP government will now penalize local ratepayers even more. Why is this spenDP government so desperate for cash, for their vote tax and other items, that they have to tax another lev el of government? It's not too late–call a referendum. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Local Government): I'm pleased to receive a question from the member opposite.

This gives me an opportunity to once again restate the 8.5 per cent increase we gave munici palities in Manitoba – $30-million increase overall, Mr. Speaker, one of the most generous contributions to municipalities in all of Canada. We work closely with municipalities, have listened to municipalities, certainly, for at least the last decade about b etter hospitals in their communities, better roads in their communities, better personal care homes in their communities.

Every minister on this side has a request from many municipalities throughout the province, and each of these ministers have worked cl osely with municipalities to deliver on their requests. Mr. Pedersen: Mr. Speaker, the federal government understood this double taxation and the municipalities are exempt from the GST. This NDP government is so desperate for cash, they not only forced loc al governments to pay the PST on their purchases, they increased the products that municipalities have to pay and now they're going to increase that by another 14 per cent on the municipalities.

When will the spenDP realize the burden they're imposing on local governments and, ultimately, local ratepayers? It's not too late–call that referendum. Mr. Lemieux: Well, without repeating myself, Mr. Speaker, 8.5 per cent increased revenue. Other provinces across the country have cut municipalities' funding or have kept them flat. You know, Mr. Speaker, we're pleased to be a province that invests in municipalities. And, Mr. Speaker, let me be clear, I'm glad he raised the federal government, because the federal government provides gas tax.

Now we have many municipalities that cannot even have their –and don't have their audited financial statements done. They're leaving millions upon millions of dollars on the table because they have not provided and not –have– measured up to what the federal government's criteria is with regard to receiving those gas tax. Millions upon millions of dollars are sitting there on the table until they can get their audits done. They don't have the capacity to do them; that's a huge challenge for small municipalities. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

We have a–visitors in the gallery, some, perhaps, as I've said before, for the first time. We want to leave a good impression with them. We have folks that are watching us through the cameras here today, and our level is starting to go up again a little bit. So I'm asking for the co- operation of all honourable members, please keep the level down so I can hear both the questions and the answers posed, and also give our folks that are watching us here, as our democracy works, to be able to understa nd what's happening in the Chamber here. I'm asking for that co-operation, please.

PST Increase Referendum Request Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Since April 16th, this NDP government has 80 days to do the right thing and call a referendum on the 14 per ce nt PST hike. Mr. Speaker: Can the member from Gimli tell the Lakeview Resort in downtown Gimli why he won't listen to their concerns and call a referendum? Hon. Stan Struthers (Minister of Finance ): Well, Mr. Speaker, businesses such as the Lakeview Resort in Gimli [inaudible] those businesses rely on this government to make good decisions to invest money into things like roads and bridges.

They depend on this government to protect health care for the people that work in their businesses. They depend on t his government to come through with schools capital and making sure that we have a decent school system there for our children and for our families. Those are the things that we're investing in; those are the things that we're going to protect –we're going to protect from the member from Fort Whyte, who has been very clear that those are the exact things that he would cut if he ever had his chance. Mr.

Eichler: This is a Minister of Finance who went door to door in the last election and made it very clear they would not raise the PST. Shame on them. Mr. Speaker, the public has known about the PST increase for 80 days. RMs and businesses in the town of Gimli have known and they want a referendum.

June 27, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2869 Will the MLA for Gimli stand up and tell his government to stop lying about the PST increase and call a referendum? Let the people in Gimli decide. Let all Manitobans have a call on a referendum. Mr. Struthers: Let all constituents in Lakeside and Gimli and the Interlake live with the benefits –let them live with the benefits of a channel coming out through Lake Manitoba, through Lake St. Martin. Let them live with those benefits, his own constituents who depend on regulation of the Lake Manitoba.

Let those people that him and I met with on the Shoal lakes tell us that infrastructure is important and we need to invest in flood infrastructure. That's what we're doing; that's what he voted against. PST Increase Government Priorities Mr. Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): The government wants to change the channel, Mr. Speaker. That's the problem. But let's give the Premier a chance to improve his score on the integrity quiz.

We've got another little integrity quiz for a Premier who's had a tough week, and this one is the lowest degree of difficulty yet, so he should be able to get a couple of these right. Now, we know this week that –we clearly established this week that the Premier's ribbon-cutting tour takes precedence over the democratic rights of the people of the r iding of Morris to vote in a by-election. That we know. So here's the first question for the Premier, he should get this one, I think: Ribbon- cutting tour this week to sell the PST hike, did an announcement in Charleswood, was it (

a) for a new oil mine f or the Minister of Energy (Mr. Chomiak), (

b) for an autographed jersey for the Premier's favourite hockey player, Mark Keane, or was it for a splash pad in Charleswood? A, B, or C, which was it? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I want to table for the Leader of the Opposition, the member from Fort Whyte, the constituency boundaries for the community of Morris. Seemed to be somewhat geographically challenged earlier on this week when he didn't recognize that Headingley, St. François Xavier, all th ose communities along Highway No. 1 are part of that constituency.

Didn't seem to realize that he put the well- being and the safety of those communities at risk when he agreed to have his MLAs in the channel blocking the possibility of diverting water from protecting those communities. If the member from Fort Whyte wants to so – show some real respect, whether it's A, B, C or D, you start by protecting communities. You start by keeping them safe. You don't put them at risk, so you can play politics. Mr. Pallister: So I give the Premier a chance to restore his integrity, he takes another shot at himself. Mr.

Speaker, 12 years of ignoring dike preparations–12 years of ignoring dike preparations along the Assiniboine, total investment less than a fifth of 1 p er cent, and he stands up and says, I'm a threat to my friends and family downstream on the dike, along the dike he has ignored for 13 solid years. Unbelievable. The poor man. One wrong. Now, I know the Premier has a problem with numbers and I know he does have a problem with numbers, but this is a numbers question, but it's pretty easy.

The PST hike –and this is for the member who has a degree from the London School of Economics, but it's not, I know, in economics. The PST hike which will help the Prem ier cut more ribbons means how much less for Manitobans? And to help his self-esteem, if he can get this right within a $100 million, I'll give him his first mark on the integrity quiz. How much money less in the pockets of Manitoba taxpayers with the Pre mier's PST hike? How much? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, the member from Fort Whyte, the Leader of the Opposition, is correct. He is the biggest threat to the people in St.

François Xavier. * (14:20) He was the one, when we were building the floodway, when we were protecting the communities in southern Manitoba with ring dikes, he said, stop building the floodway. He was the one that said that. He has not been willing to put money into Lake Manitoba. He has not been willing to put money into the Assiniboine River valley. He doesn't want to build anything, Mr. Speaker.

2870 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 27, 2013 He'll put those communities at risk to play politics. That's not leadership. Referendum Mr. Pallister: Still zero and sinking like a s tone. It's too bad we can't give negative marks, Mr. Speaker. He's eroding his own diminished credibility with each answer. It's unbelievable. Here's how low his credibility is. After he alleges that this party is a threat to the people of central Manito ba, how many responses do we get from concerned citizens who believe him?

How many Manitobans in total believe that man? [interjection] That's not the third question; it's too easy to get that one right. Zero, not a soul. Not a soul believes him, and that' s a problem, and he needs to address it. Now, breaking the law on Canada Day, this is a simple question. The Premier may get his first mark. Who does he have to consult with in a referendum? Which group? Which group? And this is pretty simple: CUPE, 192 communication staff, or all Manitobans. Which of the three? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Boy, I'm going to have to check what's in the water. The honourable First Minister, to continue with his answer. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I know the member opposite thinks it's a game. It is not a game when it comes to protecting Manitobans. It's not a game at all, and I can only remind him of one of his more lucid moments in 1995 when he talked about balanced budget legislation. He said: I believe the legislation can be, by any subsequent legislature, withdrawn or repealed. So I do not believe the hands-being-tied argument is one that has any validity at all.

He knows, in his more lucid moments, that wh at we are doing is following his advice, changing the law to protect Manitobans, to protect them from floods, to build schools, to build personal care homes, to build streets and roads. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The First Minister's time has expired. Order, please. Order, please. The honourable member for River Heights has the floor. Performance Deliverable Agreement Regional Health Authorities Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, government should be about accountability, democracy and caring.

For starters, this government has a problem with accountability. While this government's own document Achieving Health System Accountability says there must be explicit performance expectations in place, I table a FIPPA response which shows that today not one, not a single one of the regional health authorities currently has a performance deliverable agreement in place, a cornerstone of health- care planning and accountability. I ask the Premier: Will he hold his Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald) accountable for failing to ensure all regional health authorities have a performance deliverable agreement? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Premier): The health care– thank you for the note, Mr. Speaker –the health-care system measures many deliverables on behalf of Manitobans: wait lists for cardiac surgery, wait times for infection and how fast it's treated, wait times for how rapidly they get access to radiation therapy for cancer care, and all of these metrics are ver y important to show that the money we're investing in health care makes a difference. The member knows full well we've taken 13 regional health authorities bequeathed upon us by the Leader of the Opposition when he was in office; we've shrunk it down to f ive.

We've taken $10 million out of administration and we've delivered it back to cancer -care patients in the form of free drugs. We measure every day how many cancer-care patients get those free drugs, and I can tell you it makes a life -or-death differe nce, Mr. Speaker. PST Increase Referendum Request Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): So the Premier is saying that his government talks and writes about performance but does not deliver on performance. Mr. Speaker, this government also has a problem with democracy.

In the last election, the Premier himself mocked the suggestion that he would raise taxes after driving Manitoba into a deficit, and now he's raising the PST. As the Free Press reports today, the Premier's self -serving government is too costly and untrustworthy. To top it off, the Premier is being antidemocratic, refusing to let Manitobans have their

June 27, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2871 say in a legally required referendum about raising the PST. I ask the Premier: When will he recognize that Manitobans matter in this province and hold a referendum which is legally required? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Thank you for the question. The speaker –I put on the record several times the right of a government to change legislation when it has a public policy purpose. We got a bill for a billion dollars for flood improvements, and we have always put a priority on protecting communities when they have experienced unprecedented flooding.

We did it in the Red River Valley; we did it for the city of Winnipeg; we spent a billion dollars to keep those communities safe. Now we're going to spend up to a billion dollars to keep the communities in the Assiniboine valley safe, to keep the communities in Lake Manitoba safe and to keep the communities in Lake St. Martin safe. That is a legitimate public policy purpose for which we are putting the resources in place to do it. That is good government. That is responsible government. That is government that listens to the people of Manitoba that says, we want to live in safe homes and safe communities.

And in Manitoba we will deliver on that [inaudible] Kim Edwards Government Meeting Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, this is a government which is not accountable. This is a government which is not democratic, and this is a government which has s topped caring about people. For 35 days Kim Edwards has been on a hunger strike to send a message to this government that there are major problems in Manitoba which need to be addressed in relationship to Child and Family Services.

And in 35 days the Premi er has not even sat down with Kim Edwards to understand her point of view, even though she's right on the doorsteps of this Legislature. I ask the Premier: When will he start caring again and actually talk– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's time has long expired. Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): That's why we called the Hughes inquiry, to get to the bottom of concerns arising out of the child welfare system.

And not only did we put immediate resources in place for prevention of child welfar e issues to strengthen families and to strengthen communities, not only have we doubled the resources in the child welfare system and done that in partnership with First Nations communities, but we believe the Hughes inquiry will examine every issue relate d to the tragic death of Phoenix Sinclair, and we will take those recommendations very seriously. And we will ensure that the recommendations are implemented in such a way that we do protect children in Manitoba. Members opposite voted against money for the child welfare system.

They voted against increased social protection in the child welfare system. They voted against increased training for child welfare workers, and when the member opposite was in Parliament, he slashed funding for all First Nations people in Manitoba. We care about Aboriginal people, which is why we've increased funding for them and will continue to do so, taking guidance from the Hughes inquiry, Mr. Speaker. Habitat for Humanity Provincial Funding Mr. Dave Gaudreau (St. Norbert): Today the Minister of Housing– Mr. Speaker: Order. Order. Order. I regret to interrupt.

I understand, and I regret to interrupt the honourable member for St. Norbert, but I had not recognized him yet because there was a fair amount of volume in the Chambe r here this afternoon, and it may have been difficult for him to hear me. So I'm asking for the co- operation of all honourable members. Please keep the level down so that all members in the Chamber can hear the instructions that the Speaker is giving to the House. The honourable member for St. Norbert has the floor. Mr. Gaudreau : Mr. Speaker, I'm glad that maybe now the House can hear this great question. Mr.

Speaker, earlier today the Minister of Housing and Community Development made an important announcement alongside of Habitat for Humanity. I know many members on this side of the House, including myself, had been at these builds and will be at them again this year. * (14:30) Can the minister please tell us about this announcement and how our w ork with Habitat for Humanity shows on our side of the House that we actually care for people and not do cheap grandstanding like the Leader of the Opposition?

2872 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 27, 2013 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The clock's a-ticking. Hon. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Minister of Housing and Community Development ): Mr. Speaker, around the province of Manitoba, we have the privilege of working with hundreds of non- profit organizations that are building affordable housing for Manitobans. Thousands of volunteers are coming together. Today, I was able to be joined by Sandy Hopkins, executive director of Habitat for Humanity, where we announced our commitment for over $800,000.

That $800,000 equals 16 new homes and a home ownership program for Manitobans. That is also–that shows our commitment of $5.5 million in total, which equals 116 homes across this province. We're working with non-profit organizations and we're building Manitoba– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The minister's time has expired. PST Increase Request to Withdraw Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): Mr.

Speaker, Tektite Manufacturing is located in the business corridor between Morden and Winkler in the RM of Stanley, and they manufacture horsepower tractor cabs along with rollover protections systems for the golf and turf industry. It's owned by Abe Neufeld. It has 12 employees, and they had plans to expand their employee complement by twice that size, but that was before the PST increase. Mr. Speaker, Abe Neufeld contacted me and he said he was very disappointed that the PST would be going up.

He said it's hard enough with the amount of red tape that small businesses have to go through to try to grow their business, and then this happens. Mr. Speaker, it's not too late. My question for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Struthers): Will he pull back from this inconceived plan to increase the PST and stop hurting businesses like Tektite? Hon. Andrew Swan (Acting Minister of Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade ): Mr. Speaker, I think, again, the members on the other side need a little bit of perspective about just how well things are going in the province of Manitoba.

StatsCan has reported just today that average weekly earnings in Manitoba have grown faster than the national average. Manitoba families have the fourth highest market 'intome' in –income in Canada, giving them more opportunity to buy consumer goods across this province. You'll know that RBC's latest provincial outlook indicates that Manitoba is maintaining its cruising speed and forecasts sustained, real GDP growth of 2.7 per cent in 2013, matc hing the growth in 2012.

And the Royal Bank of Canada –not many New Democrats in that organization –would note that Manitoba is one of only four provinces to grow faster than the national average in 2013. In my next answer, Mr. Speaker, I'll get onto some other positive news, but the member from Morden-Winkler, who represents a tremendous growing part of the province, should just use a little perspective once in a while. Mr. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, this government keeps trying to sell it, but Manitobans are not buying what he's selling. Mr. Speaker, Abe Neufeld told me that the Bill 20 and the PST increase is driving business away.

It's prompting him to start looking at contingency pl ans. And he says he's considering moving his business across the border to North Dakota, just to keep going. He said it's the last resort of that company because they have to do something in order to grow. Today, on the day that be –committee hearings begin on Bill 20, will this Finance Minister do the right thing, admit that his PST hike is bad for business, bad for business growth, bad for companies like Tektite. Will he abide by the law and stop– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The member's time has expired. Mr. Swan : Mr.

Speaker, now, more than ever, businesses in Manitoba have contingency plans which include– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Swan) has the floor. Mr. Swan : Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and a s I was trying to say over the din across the way, is that, for many companies in Manitoba, that contingency plan is expanding their businesses because of the great economic conditions here in Manitoba. And the latest report from the Conference Board of Canada, which came out just two weeks ago, Mr. Speaker, projects Manitoba's economic growth to be

June 27, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2873 the fourth strongest in the country this year, with real GDP growth of 2.2 per cent this year, outpaced the national average. You know, the only person that actually wants to export things to North Dakota is the Leader of the Opposition. He wants to send health care there, Mr. Speaker. PST Increase Referendum Request Mr. Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, the July 1st increase in the PST will hav e an impact on everyone's disposable income. It'll be particularly noticed by those on income assistance or fixed-pension incomes.

This segment of the population cannot afford even a modest increase in costs as many cannot make ends meet now and depend food banks. Mr. Speaker, it's not too late. Will this government call a referendum on the PST increase today? Hon. Stan Struthers (Minister of Finance ): Well, Mr. Speaker, this is the government that every year that we've been in power have increased minimum wage for people. I would think that the member for Portage la Prairie would understand that that is a real benefit for real Manitobans in this province. I would think that he would understand that. Mr.

Speaker, we have in Manitoba some very good indications that our economy is moving forward despite the economic uncertainty around the world. What Manitobans depend on more than anything is a government that will invest in hospitals and invest in schools and invest in roads and bridges, not cut them like the member for Fort– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. Time for oral questions has expired. Official opposition leader, on House business? House Business Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Official Opposition House Leader): On House business, Mr. Speaker.

In accordance with rule 31(9), I'd like to announce that the private members' resolution that'll be considered next Thursday is the resolution on support for Manitoba families with autism, brought forward by the honourable member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson). Mr. Speaker: It has been announced that in accordance with rule 31(9), that the private members' resolution that will be considered next Thursday is the resolution on support for Manitoba families with autism, brought forward by the honourable member for River East. * * * Mr. Speaker: Now– MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Phoenix Soccer Cup Ms.

Erna Braun (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, the 5th annual Phoenix Slurpee Cup was held this past week from June 20th to 24th. The Slurpee Cup is a five-day soccer tournament hosted by the Phoenix Football Club with sponsorship from 7 -Eleven– hence the name–along with Umbro Canada and Home Run Sports. The soccer tournament is for boys and girls from ages 9 to 16. Over time, the tournament has grown from 80 to 180 teams. This year was the biggest year yet, with 185 teams, 325 games, 19 categories, over 100 volunteers and 2,200 players.

The tournament included teams from Winnipeg, as well as Flin Flon, Regina, Saskatoon, Dryden, Kenora and Portage la Prairie. It is quite a task to organize such a large tournament as the Slurpee Cup. My compliments to the hard -working organizing committee: Stewart Clark, tournament chair; committee members, Colette Stallard, Frank Consiglio, Sarah Strauman. I would also like to acknowledge the huge contribution of Dick Derrett, who is –as Phoenix staff, keeps everything on track and for whom this was his last Slurpee Cup as he announced his retirement. Thank you, Dick, we wish you well.

I had the opportunity to attend the tournament on Saturday, June 22nd. It was a phenomenal event. The kids had fun, parents were cheering and the coaches were excited to see their teams d o their very best. There were many other activities for the kids, and overall the weekend became more than soccer. It was a community success. I would like to congratulate the Phoenix Football Club for their hard work and success with the Slurpee tournament. Soccer is more than a game. It teaches teamwork, co -operation, grace in winning and losing, strategy and most importantly, camaraderie.

It is no surprise at how many kids gave up their weekend to partake in this event and even

2874 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 27, 2013 less surprising the de dication of volunteers who understand the virtue of sport. I ask my colleagues to join me today in congratulating the Phoenix FC and all the players for an exciting weekend. You were all winners. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Veselka Ukrainian Festival Mr. Ra lph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to stand here today to congratulate the Veselka Ukrainian Festival in celebrating their 25th anniversary, truly an important milestone achievement.

Since the Veselka festival started in 1989, many thousands of young Ukrainian dancers have waited anxiously for the opportunity to experience this amazing festival. The festival has featured amateur dance competition, folk arts, crafts and a means to promote Ukrainian culture, music, dance and food, and has since grown to be a festival of competitors coming from all over to dance. * (14:40) This year's event took place on May the 25th and 26th at the Teulon- Rockwood Arena in Teulon, complete with live entertainment such as Sloohai and fantastic Ukrainian ho t lunch.

As for a Ukrainian dancer in Manitoba, to be able to compete in such a festival is to compete in the most important competitions of your dance career. The incredible joy and exhilaration felt by dancers is not only matched by the pride of their families and all who attend the festival. And, unfortunately, the festival, like all good things, must come to an end. Earlier this year, the committee made a difficult decision –declared this year as their final one. So it goes just without saying, this ye ar's festival was celebrated with the same grandeur and class for which it has become famous.

We have provided –we have been provided with a more than adequate and rich history of celebration of our Ukrainian culture through the art of Ukrainian dance. So I'd ask all honourable members to join me in showing their appreciation for organizers, volunteers of the festival who, over the years, have made this event possible. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Horizons and Discovery Child Care Ms. Deanne Crothers (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, any working parent will attest that it is essential to know that qualified, dedicated and caring staff are watching our children in our absence, people who appreciate our little ones for who they are and who are helping them lear n and grow. In St. James, we are fortunate to have multiple quality child -care centres that draw people from other parts of the city, and today I rise to commend an amazing child- care facility in our area.

Horizons and Discovery children's centres are two non- profit organizations that stair –share a stand-alone facility and a philosophy to provide care that helps foster children's physical, emotional, social and intellectual development. Directors Sandra Rogan of Horizons and Ron Blatz of Discovery, with their professional team of early childhood educators and child- care assistants, work with children and parents to provide developmentally appropriate creative programming so that children can get the most out of their early years.

Their programs encourage e xploration in the outdoors and as many encounters with the natural world as possible. There's also a significant focus on achieving gender balance in the centre to highlight the importance of the roles played by both men and women in the development of our children. Furthermore, Discovery Children's Centre is one of the only daycares in the city that has a program to accommodate parents in shift work to ensure that families have the options they need to balance work and home life. The Minister of Family Services and Labour (Ms.

Howard) and I recently had the pleasure of visiting Discovery for an announcement. The minister is expanding the workforce -based early childhood education diploma program. This accelerated program will train child -care professionals to be ECEs while working in the field, studying two days a week and learning on the job the other three. And I was there again at the Horizons Discovery annual family fun daycare –day with my own children. Mr.

Speaker, It was a very well -attended, multi-generational event that had a wide variety of creative activities and entertainment for the children that clearly reflected the family philosophy that these two centres promote. The experiences that children have in their early years shape their futu res. I would like to acknowledge and thank the Horizons and Discovery children's centres, their dedicated directors and child-care professionals everywhere for their hard

June 27, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2875 work in ensuring that our children grow up healthy and happy. Thank you very much. Stanley Business Centre Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): Mr. Speaker, today I rise in the Assembly to speak about the official opening of the Stanley Business Centre on Wednesday, June the 17th. This new $10- million business park is located off Highw ay 14 in the commercial corridor between the cities of Morden and Winkler in the RM of Stanley. The Stanley Business Centre is home to the administrative offices for the Rural Municipality of Stanley.

A second facility is the new location for BDO Canada a nd Access Credit Union corporate headquarters, as well as Credential Financial Strategies. These establishments have been in the business park for just about a year and provide employment to nearly 100 people, and each office serves a large geographic area and building in the corridor, allows them to serve those clients and constituents more efficiently from a central location.

I had the honour of participating in the ribbon-cutting ceremony, alongside Larry Davey, CEO and president of Access Credit Union; Ron Westfall, BDO partner and representative; and Art Petkau, reeve for the Stanley municipality. The buildings encompass 35,000 square feet of office speed –space and feature unique architectural and design elements as well as innovative technology.

The heating and cooling system is powered by geothermal, but what's new is that the Stanley Business Centre is the first project in Manitoba where the central system is used to heat and cool more than one building at a time, resulting in operating costs that are half of what they would be if each building had its own geothermal system. I congratulate BDO Canada, the RM of Stanley and Access Credit Union on their vision for this project, the incredible co-operation and collaboration that such a project demands , and on their successful completion of such a unique and exceptional business centre.

At the same time, I congratulate WBS Construction, the Winkler general contracting company, and the many subtrades who made it all come together. I extend best wishes as these businesses serve the community and their clients in their new location in the Stanley Business Centre. Collège Saint-Norbert Collegiate Musical–The Sound of Music Mr. Dave Gaudreau (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, dating back to the 1950s, Collège Saint -Norbert Collegiate has a rich heritage within the community of St. Norbert. This grade 9 to 12 school is a dual-track institution.

It offers French immersion program and an English program in addition to an apprenticeship program. The collegiate student population is drawn from school partners within the Seine River School Division, LaSalle School, École Saint -Norbert Immersion, La Barrière Crossings and École St. Adolphe School. Among the most incredible things that happen at Saint -Norbert Collegiate, I rise today to highlight a wonderful achievement that brought students, staff and families together. Earlier this year, the Saint- Norbert Collegiate put on a classical musical, The Sound of Music.

My fiancée, Michelle, and I attended together and absolutely loved it. It was clear that the students had rehearsed hours countlessly to pull off a flawless performance on this beloved stage show. Mr. Speaker, there are two main reasons this event was particularly special for Michelle and me. The Sound of Music i s one of those classics that everyone has loved and seen. I have fond memories of watching Julie Andrews's version as a child with my family. Who doesn't know all the words to Do-Re-Mi?

Mix in this childhood sentimentality with seeing young people in the c ommunity come together and succeed, and you really do have the perfect community event. Thank you to everyone who supported these young people in becoming local stars. All the families of the community and community members who attended and helped in many other ways, are irreplaceable. You are helping the next generation achieve their goals and build their self -confidence.

To all the actors, singers, dancers, stage managers, wardrobe attendants, producers, hair -makeup artists, technical crew and everyone else involved in a variety of capacities, congratulations on a job well done. You are talented, energetic and entertaining, and you certainly know how to put on a great show. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Grievances? No grievances.

2876 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 27, 2013 ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Jennifer Howard (Government House Leader): I would ask you to resolve us into Committee of Supply, and just a few notes for the information of the House. The 'chaim' –the

section meeting in the Chamber will sit until 6 p.m. as previously agreed. The sections of Supply sitting in room 254 and 255 will sit until 5 to allow time for those rooms to be prepared for the committee meeting tonight. And also as previously agreed, the Supply will not sit tomorrow. Mr.

Speaker: So, for the understanding of the House, we're going to, in a moment, resolve into the Committee of Supply with the understanding that the Chamber will sit in Committee of Supply until 6 p.m. and that the committee rooms 254 and 255 wi ll sit in Committee of Supply until 5 p.m. to allow the rooms to be set up for this evening's Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development. So we'll now resolve –and there will be no Committee of Supply tomorrow, for Friday. So we'll now resolve i nto the Committee of Supply as listed in today's Order Paper, with the understanding that I've indicated, and, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) JUSTICE * (14:50) Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Order. W ill the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Justice. As had been previously agreed, questions for the department will proceed in a global m anner. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Andrew Swan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Yes, well, I think yesterday afternoon the member for Brandon West (Mr.

Helwer) finished with a question about federal support or lack of federal support for what we consider justice functions in First Nations communities, and the specific question was about probation services, but also asked about band constables and policing on First Nations. So I can confirm that the federal government does not contribute towards the cost of probation services on First Nations whether or not there is one of these community partnership agreements in place. I can honestly say that, in the time I've been minister, that no province or territory that I'm aware of has raised this.

It's been a responsibility that provinces and territories have simply shouldered. I know that the member also raised the question of band constables. Band constables are a federal program. It's a program that's been in place since, we think about 1969 or so. Band constables play a very important role in providing additional support, especially in remote communities where RCMP cannot be expected to be in the community at all times. Band constables can be a very, very useful way of maintaining public order in communities. The band constables are trained to a standard set out by Public Safety Canada.

Manitoba doesn't deliver the training. We don't–we have a very small involvement simply in designating those band constables. Once there is a band cons table that is then employed by a community, in many situations in Manitoba there's a memorandum of understanding between the RCMP and that First Nation community to allow the use of lockups in those communities, which was the case I believe the member for Brandon West was thinking of in Lac Brochet First Nation where the evidence came out that there were no band constables that were prepared and ready to act.

So it is a federal program and we think it's a very useful program, and we're certainly expecting the federal government will continue its support. On the policing side, there is a First Nations policing program in certain provinces, thankfully, including Manitoba. The First Nations policing program is a way to have detachments located right in First Nations or to otherwise have a First Nations policing program. One of the most successful examples that I'm sure the member is aware of in his drives to and from Winnipeg is Dakota Ojibway Police Service.

That's a First Nations police service that's really a collaboration of several First Nations in partnership with the federal government and the provincial government. We think that First Nations policing arrangements are a good way to go. We've asked several times, first of all, to support some provinces that don't have First Nations policing agreements that

June 27, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2877 they should have that and for those that do to keep expanding. For the past several years, the expansion of many of those programs have been put on hold. The federal funding for those programs has been frozen. There was a study that was undertaken a number of years ago. We were given an interim report by the Public S afety Minister that suggested that First Nations policing was doing what everybody expected it to do, that it was positive.

I've never seen a full copy of the report, and, unfortunately, we have not yet seen any increase in support for those First Nation communities. So, certainly, there are some areas that we've shouldered on our own. There's some areas the federal government shoulders on their own and must continue to do so. There's others where there are partnerships. We'd like to keep expanding that partnership and find the best way to maintain law and order in First Nations communities. Mr. Reg Helwer (Brandon West): Thank you to the minister for that answer, and, indeed, I am familiar with the DOC policing program.

They were located on the same stree t in Brandon as one of our operations there, and we had quite a bit of trouble getting broken into until they actually located there, and even though there was no one in the DOTC centre at night, the mere presence of those police cars on the street seemed to drive the individuals that were breaking into our compound and stealing tools to another location. So, just–made the crime go away at that point. So that's not a question, just an observation.

But I would like to have some discussions about recidivism, and my understanding is that in the past few years–and I'm sure the minister can update me on the numbers – that we have had as high as 90 per cent recidivism rate in terms of youth that were in custody and 71 per cent in adult, so I'm interested to know if those numbers are still similar, and, if they have changed, what the minister feels would be the implications or what would be the driving force to change that. Mr. Swan: Well, some time ago, we decided that it made sense simply to put the recidivism r ates up on the Justice website.

That's been done and it has been updated. I can put on the record the most recent recidivism rates as of March 31, 2013, and it breaks down the numbers into seven different categories. So that's three categories of adults and four categories of youth. Adults who receive a conditional sentence, the recidivism rate is at 10 per cent. For adults who receive probation as their consequence have a 14 per cent recidivism rate. Adults who actually spend time in provincial custody , their recidivism rate is 31 per cent. For youth who receive probation their recidivism rate is 22 per cent.

For youth who have deferred custody, which would be, without putting too fine a point on it, it's similar to a conditional sentence where, as long as they keep the peace, that they're unlikely to have to spend time in a correctional institution, 38 per cent. Youth who are in open custody, 43 per cent, and youth who are in secure custody, 29 per cent. Mr. Helwer: Thank you for the answer, Mr. Minister. I'm interested to know what the Justice Department's perspective is on reducing recidivism.

Obviously, programs that are in custody would have a big part of that, and, you know, you can't do much about how the people got there or their past history but in changing their perspectives and the chances that they may reoffend. Can you comment on programs that the department has put in place recently or over the past five years to deal with that issue? * (15:00) Mr. Swa n: I'll give just a couple of examples, I guess, that I hope will be helpful on the youth side as we talked about the other day.

School in the Manitoba Youth Centre and the Agassiz Youth Centre is a 12 year –or 12-month proposition, classes continue during the summer. We have actually –our government has invested more money in teachers and other resources to try to put individuals who are in the Youth Centre in a better footing. I think we can all agree that youth who find themselves in a correctional centre likely have educational outcomes that would not be as positive as the great majority of youth outside of the system.

In many cases, there are issues of literacy, there's issues of mental health at any given time, which is why on the youth side we've also added resources to assist with mental health to try and stabilize youth, to put them on a–at least on a platform to be able to normalize in a classroom, the hope being that when they returned to their community at the end of their sentence, they'll be more likely to attend school and remain on the positive side of things. I know the question was about new programs, so there's some new investments there.

2878 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 27, 2013 On the adult side, there was a 48- bed unit that opened at the Headingley Correctional Centre last fiscal year and that's –those new beds are an addictions drug treatment program, it's called the Winding River Therapeutic Community, and it's a community-living based environment which encourages appropriate behaviour by inmates through reinforcement and accountability.

And I'm told the program's based on–while it focuses on treating the drug and alcohol addiction, criminality, and also criminal thinking errors to try and get people to look ahead to what the consequences may be. In some cases, it may be dealing with some of their impulse control issues, it may deal with helping people to learn life skills to try and stay out of trouble and to move forward. I should just clarify, although 48 beds were added, the actual capacity of this particular program is 156.

So that's–we think in advance, it's –we think, supported by best evidence of how we try to make changes in people's lives, if we can make a difference within the correctional system that is part of it. In many cases, especially on the youth side, our youth counsellors, who work in those –those juvenile counsellors who work with youth will tell you sometimes that they can make progress while the youth is in the institution; obviously, they have very little control over what the conditions are when the child goes home.

So we can't be–we can't possibly solve every issue within the corrections system, but there exists a chance to have a better platform. If everything else is equal, if we're providing better services to inmates, and youth who are incarcerated, t hat should result in better results. In some cases that may mean individuals not offending at all.

In some cases, frankly, it may simply be deferring, people becoming involved in activity again and, in some cases, it may result in individuals, even if they're not making good choices, they're making better ones than they did before and perhaps if they're going to be re -involved with the law, doing something less serious or less violent or less destructive than what they were doing before. There's other pro grams to assist with substance abuse across the system that I can talk about in more detail if that's helpful for the member for Brandon West. Mr. Helwer: No, I think we've covered off quite a bit there.

And I'd like to move to the sheriff services side of the world here, if we can. And with the changes to the circuit court system, it has changed, I think, the way that they operate a little it. You know, we see more people travelling now for the circuit courts as opposed to a few and those dynamics have changed quite a bit. The budget for transportation for sheriff services is up quite a bit. And, when we look at Estimates last year, obviously, we don't the final numbers for the actuals, but you could probably look back to the previous years in terms of the Estimates and what the actual was there.

Is it–does it–is it tend to be an area that is over budget or are you able to manage that budget within the parameters that you're set out in Estimates here? Mr. Swan: Just with some of the cost pressures we talked about yesterday within Corrections, and more individuals in Corrections often means more challenges on a number of things. Sheriff services are certainly affected by that because sheriff services are responsible for transporting inmates from correctional centres into courts for court appearances.

So I don't want to offend any member on the other side by going in too much detail again, but, as you're aware the video conferencing program, I think, is already showing some positive returns by reducing the number of transports that are necessary. If there are fewer transports necessary we save sheriff's time. We certainly save sheriff's overtime and by doing that we can release some of the cost pressures that we acknowledge the sheriff's office has over time. Mr.

Helwer: So, in terms of hitting budget for the past several years for transportation costs, let's say, look at the first three that you may have available. Have you been able to meet budget or have you exceeded it? * (15:10) Mr. Swan: Yes, I would agree with the member for Brandon West that the spending on transportation by sheriffs has been over budget the last several years.

That's why I think it's fair to say there was a great deal of enthusiasm within the department to find ways that Correctio ns and sheriffs who work within the Courts division could work together to come up with some better ways to do things.

June 27, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2879 So I will acknowledge that it's a budget item that has needed attention and, frankly, I'm pleased that there's been interest within the justice system to work on that. Mr. Helwer: Yes, Mr. Chair, when I look up to the salaries and employee benefits area, and, of course, we've discussed the substantial increases in the past, this here –I'm wondering if this is mainly overtime that we're loo king at, or is this salary increases and what might be contained in the indirect salary costs?

I assume the pension would be in the employee benefits or–but stand to be corrected. Mr. Swan: Just before I answer– An Honourable Member: Oh, sorry. Page 91. Mr. Swan: Yes, what I'm going to do is undertake to prime–provide a more complete breakdown. I can put on the record that a chunk–likely a substantial chunk of these indirect salary costs are overtime as a result of some of the pressures that we had talke d about. But that's not a full answer, so I will try to get a better answer out to the member for Brandon West. Mr. Helwer: Yes, Mr.

Chair, and while you're putting that information together, I am interested–I can either FIPPA for the information, if that 's necessary, or perhaps you could provide the last three actuals for transportation in terms of other expenditures. So we can look at it that way or, if you wish, I can FIPPA for it. But I would appreciate if that were made available as well, and also, as there have been several requests of this nature, when that would become available–if we can have a date attached to some of it. Mr.

Swan : Okay, the question is about the transportation costs within the sheriff's department over the last three years –so fi scal year 2010 -2011, 2011-2012, 2012- 2013–and we'll do our best to provide some information on that. Mr. Helwer: And in terms of timelines for when we might look for some of this information to be available? Mr. Swan : Well, you know, we'll give it some priority. I suppose a lot of it depends on how many undertakings the same number of people have to work on. So we'll be reasonable in working ahead on this. Mr. Helwer: Mr.

Chair, so flipping over the page to page 92, we see Costs Related to Capital Assets, and I see there's a line item there providing for the amortization of the cost of government aircraft based on usage and government air services. There is an amount there, and would it be possible for us to find out who used the government aircraft, for what purpose and which aircraft? * (15:20) Mr. Swan: For the use of government air services, primarily, that is used for fly -in circuit courts across the north. So, when it's court day in Little Grand Rapids, the court party will fly in and then fly out at the end of the day.

It may also be used to transport prisoners. In some communities, the –well, in most communities, if somebody is remanded in a correctional centre, obviously, they're not in the community. They also have to be brought int o the community for certain court proceedings. There'd be an expense on that. And, in certain cases, there may be the transport of prisoners to and from remote communities for other reasons. So, that's primarily where the use of government air services wou ld occur. In most cases, it's cost -effective to use government air services as opposed to having a chart–to charter a–to charter privately.

Mr. Helwer: So, has the minister made any use of government air services, or how does he travel around to the various areas? Mr. Swan: To the best of my recollection, in the last fiscal year, I did not fly on government air services. What I will do is I will ask the department to confirm that, and if I'm misstating that, I'll let you know. But I'm pretty sure that I d idn't use Government Air Services. Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): I'm just asking: Has the minister had the chance to get any information for me on the prepaid funeral services case? Mr.

Swan: I understand that the case remains under investigation. Mr. Ewasko: I was just reading in Hansard yesterday that the minister had answered a question that was misdirected; I did not ask a question. So, just for clarification, I did not ask a question for the cost of Bill C-10, so I wanted to clarify to make sure that there was no confusion as to which questions I did ask, and that's why I asked again if there was some information in regards to the prepaid funeral services case.

But I just want to ask the minister, since the case is under investigation, I unders tand that the lead investigating officer had submitted a case package to

2880 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 27, 2013 the Crown in May 2010, but to date there has been no opinion from the Crown on the case, pro or con, as I mentioned yesterday. Just wondering why is something–why is this taking so long, three years? Mr. Swan: Okay, and I'm sorry I misspoke myself on who had asked the question. It was, indeed, the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Wishart). I understand that there have been more interactions between the police investigating the case and prosecutions. It is a complex case and I can confirm that it remains under investigation. Mr. Ewasko: Thank you, Minister.

There has been some speculation that –over the last three years, there's been four to seven Crown attorneys on this case, and we're wondering if maybe the reason for the delay in either a pro or con on this case is the fact that maybe some of these Crown attorneys have to be then brought up to speed and maybe that's the reason for the major delay. Mr. Swan: That would only be speculation. Mr. Ewasko: And what worries me a little bit is the old saying, justice delayed is justice denied. And when I know that some –the senior Crown attorney, Mr.

Sean Brennan, during the duration of the investigation was involved, and it has been reported recently that Mr. Brennan has recently been dismissed from his office. And I'm just wondering if there's some sort of correlation between the two, because this case is, again –we're over three years in development. So if–I'd like to know if the mini ster can make a comment, then, on the senior Crown attorney. Mr. Swan : Yes, I can't speak about a personnel matter involving an individual Crown. Mr. Ewasko: Okay, then, just so for some additional information for the minister, on the website just the other day Mr.

Brennan's name was still involved there. So maybe he is still involved. Maybe I have some misinformation that he has been dismissed, but it's just very interesting that the two situations are, you know, seem to me, could be overlapped.

But, again, that's speculation and I'm certain that the minister will–would be saying something along those lines. * (15:30) It is interesting, though, that I read in yesterday's Hansard that the minister had recognized, and the fact that he trusts the police service to prioritize and– with individuals, and that they're hoping to be given more attention to and as far as the tools go.

So I'm interested to hear from the minister that, you know, when the police, whether it's RCMP or the city police, are putting tha t much time in investigating a certain case, why, then, would the Crown attorneys be sort of dragging their heels on a certain situation? And, again, to me it seems like three years is quite the time, or are we just waiting for some of these families to so rt of drop the case and sort of throw their hands up in the air and say, well, you know what, it's our bad for trusting in the system? Mr.

Swan : Well, like, generally speaking, and not talking about any case in particular, of course, it is usual practice of the police, then, to submit evidence to the Crown attorney's office for a Crown opinion. Sometimes the evidence presented is complete, and it allows the Crown to move quickly to make a determination. In some cases, the evidence is perhaps not so clear. In some cases, the Crown attorney may review a case and return to the investigating police agency and ask more questions or perhaps ask for more i nformation to come forward.

In complex cases, whether it's a financially complex case or it's a–it could be a violent or serious case where there's questions about the nature of the evidence, it's not unusual for some further work to go on between the Crown's office and the police agency to make sure the Crown giving the opinion to the police is as full and complete as can be in the circumstances. Of course, there's never any guarantee. A Crown opinion authorizing the police to lay a charge is not a guarantee that there will ultimately be a conviction. Crowns are always bound by too many principles. Mr.

Chair, No. 1, for a charge to go ahead there must be a reasonable likelihood of successful prosecution. The second is that it should be in the public inter est. So the work of the Crown's office –just to summarize–it's not a matter in many cases of police simply providing a package and nothing further happens. In many cases, there's an ongoing dialogue between the Crowns and the police to make sure that the best possible opinion is given. Mr. Ewasko: Okay, I do understand that the packages or whatever is submitted and then the Crown does take a look and there is that dialogue back and forth.

But I know that the minister cannot necessarily speak to this as of r ight now, but just so that he's aware going forward that possibly the delay and the amount of information back and forth could've been lost or misinterpreted because of the

June 27, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2881 alleged or speculated four to seven different attorneys on this particular case. So I look forward to, hopefully, in the near future getting some information from the minister and I would appreciate that as quickly as possible because there are families that are concerned. Mr. Swan: Look, I appreciate it's an issue of some concern to some constituents for the member for Lac du Bonnet and perhaps others, and I appreciate the member has made his point. Mr.

Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): I want to cover some of the ground around the police helicopter as was donated with–funded with so much fanfare a year and a half ago, I believe it was. What was the total cost to the Province for this police helicopter that the City used? Mr. Swan : Yes, Justice doesn't contribute towards those costs. I believe that those costs come from the Department of Local Government. Mr. Wishart: Well, I appreciate that information, as they're currently in Estimates as well. I'll have to run over there and ask that question.

But any of the operation also funded from Justice, or is everything from Local Government? Mr. Swan : Yes, none of it is from Justice. I understand that–just to confirm, none of the funding comes from Justice. I understand that –I understand all the funding for the police helicopter and its operation comes through Local Government. Mr. Wishart: I thank the minister. I guess I'll continue on a slightly different vein, then. Looking at the Agassiz Youth Centre, you mentioned that education is provided to them as part of their services there when people are incarcerated there.

Could you cover some of the other services that are available to them there and what quantities? Mr. Swan: Well, I'll try and answer the question. In addition to the school that operates there, there's also a carpentry program at Agassiz Youth Centre. There is a meat-cutting program that operates at the centre. There's a garden where, obviously, in season, youth who are at the Agassiz Youth Centre are involved in the growing and the processing of the food. There's also animals at Agassiz Youth Centre, so the youth there learn something about animal husbandry and looking after the animals.

And, of course, although it's already programming, obviously, we're responsible for looking after all of the health and mental health issues for the youth there. As well, there's oppor tunities for youth to do what's called trustee work, which is working, for example, in laundry and food services, and through that work, hopefully, get some experience and also, frankly, gain some discipline at what we hope they'll be doing when they're not in a correctional centre. Mr. Wishart: I thank the minister for those answers.

Could you expand a bit on what mental health services are available and how much of it there is, because I certainly heard that they could use more than they're getting? * (15:40) Mr. Swan: Yes, well, in terms of the mental health service, the first thing I can say is that new juvenile counsellors that are coming on board to work at AYC now receive enhanced training to be better aware of how mental health issues may presen t themselves with the population they work with.

We've enhanced the availability of a mental health nurse at AYC, who will then play a major role in determining whether further and additional mental health services are required. MATC, here in Winnipeg, provides service both for youth at Manitoba Youth Centre and also at Agassiz Youth Centre. As well, there are a small number of very, very high -maintenance or high-needs youth that have a special kind of sentence called IRCS, I -R-C-S. It's an intensive high-needs program to augment the regular services that are available to youth, and that IRCS sentence is delivered in partnership with the federal government.

Mr. Wishart: I thank the minister for the answer. So there's no regularly scheduled visits from either psychiatrists or psychologists to the facility? Mr. Swan: The mental health nurse position I spoke about–and that person is in many ways the gatekeeper–decide whether some more intensive mental health intervention is warranted. Again, we agree that providing some better information as early as possible is useful, which is why the screening assessment tools, when somebody first comes into a correctional centre, have been enhanced.

Again, especially with youth, we do rely on the juvenile counsellors to be made aware of some of the situations. The mental health nurse , though, is really the key in terms of determining whether other intervention is needed. And, again, MATC does attend at the Agassiz Youth Centre, as well as at the Manitoba Youth Centre.

2882 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 27, 2013 Mr. Helwer: I guess, moving and carrying on a little bit from that one, forensic psychologists have been in the news a little bit over the past few months, and I understand it's a challenge for the department and to retain the services of these individuals. Can the minister speak about what has occurred there to challenge those psychologists to, I guess, withdraw their services, and how their services are being–those needs are being filled? Mr.

Swan: I think the best way to express this is that justice is really a–we're a consumer of the services of forensic psychiatrists. Justice doesn't have forensic psychiatrists on staff. It would be the regional health authorities that would do that. The key concern for courts and for justice generally has been the needs of courts need to be met on a timely basis. And I understand there were some challenges for a while because certain individuals who had done that work had retired or had left hospital practice.

I am advised that work was done by the head of forensic psychology a nd there have been some advances, and I am told that as of today the needs of the courts are being met on a timely and appropriate basis. Mr. Helwer: Okay. Well, moving on to another subject then, electronic monitoring program, and when I look back into m inutes–into the Hansard from previous Estimates there's reference to the electronic monitoring program being a pilot project until March 31st, 2012, under one date here. Can the minister comment on whether this is still a pilot project or is it a permanent project? Mr.

Swan : Yes, I think the member knows we've been using electronic monitoring, and the first target, if you will, for the use of electronic monitoring has been youth auto thieves. And we've continuously maintained the program since 2008 and i t has been a part of the success we've had in reducing auto theft in Manitoba and particularly in the city of Winnipeg. Of course, the youth who have been stealing automobiles have been a very challenging group to work with.

I think it was the right group to pilot this with because they are also the ones who are, frankly, most likely to be back in our communities despite the best efforts of our Crown attorneys and concern of the community given some of the provisions of the Youth Criminal Justice Act. It remains a pilot. I suppose it's –obviously, it's a long-running pilot. It's been a continuous program since it was–since its inception in Manitoba in 2008. * (15:50) In the last election we promised we'd be expanding the use of the technology to others, and we will be moving ahead on that.

It's important at the outset to note that we do not believe that electronic monitoring is a substitute for somebody who poses a sufficient danger that they should be in a correctional institution, and I don't know wher e the –what the member thinks about that. But we are looking at how we're going to meet that commitment and how we can expand the use of electronic monitoring, again on a pilot basis, to some other areas. And one area that I think has some real –some merit attached to it would be to use it for –to try and get enhanced compliance and enhanced monitoring of domestic violence offenders.

Again, it's not a substitute if somebody poses enough of a danger that they should be in a correctional institution, but if we can use it to assist in managing those people in the community, that's a positive thing. Mr. Helwer: Does the Province own the technology for the bracelets and the monitoring, or is it a contract, a lease? Who is the provider of this technology? Mr. Swan : The electronic monitoring bracelets are leased under a contract. Mr. Helwer: And who is the contractor for that? And has it been tendered or is it a sole source? Mr. Swan : It's a company called Jemtec, J-e-m-t-e-c. Mr.

Helwer: And was that contract tender ed or is it a sole-source contract? Mr. Swan : Yes, back in 2008 we actually piggybacked, if you will, on the work that Nova Scotia had done. Just for a matter of interest, it was a different government in Nova Scotia at that time, and I know Minister Chomi ak and myself had worked closely with Murray Scott, who was the Progressive Conservative attorney general. There was a report that came out of an absolutely horrific incident that had happened in the province of Nova Scotia.

Nova Scotia led the way a little bit, and so when we followed along, we didn't do our own RFP or tender. It was sole sourced with this company.

June 27, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2883 Mr. Helwer: So, as the Province has renewed this as a pilot project seemingly annually, is that contract, then, renewed annually or is it revie wed or is there ever–is there a date where it expires and would have to be retendered –or tendered, I guess, since it was not tendered in the first point–first place? Mr. Swan: That contract is renewed annually. Mr.

Helwer: Police officers is something that this government has funded for various departments over the last number of years, and it seems to be, when we look at the numbers, somewhere around the $80,000 range per officer. Would that be an accurate number? Mr. Swan: Just to clarify, there are two main ways that support for police is given in Manitoba. The first is the supply of funds to municipal police forces for their services, such as Winnipeg or Brandon, and that funding is provided by Local Government. On the other hand, there's the RCMP complement across the province which is funded by Justice.

So our –if we're –if you want to talk about the RCMP complement, then we can do that. If it's a question about the cost of individual officers for municipalities, it would be Local Government that foots the bill. Mr. Helwer: Mr. Chair, I will take that question to Local Government then. Just–I'm interested in the task force on murdered and missing women and the minister's perspective on that and the plans for it moving forward. Mr.

Swan: Yes, well, back in September 2009, the Province announced the formation of the Manitoba Action Group on Exploited and Vulnerable Women, and the purpose of that group was to give advice to the Province to develop new policies to address what I think we agree is a crisis of abused and exploited women in Manitoba. And some of the partners in that action group include the Native Women's Transition Centre, the Metis Women of Manitoba and the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs.

And under that initiative , Manitoba's hosted a national Aboriginal women's summit and also has worked with federal government to become more engaged with the plight of missing and murdered women in Manitoba and elsewhere. And we were pleased, actually, the federal government in their 2010 budget pledged $25 million in funding over a period of five years to try and address this problem. In terms of the police, it was also at the same time that the Province, the RCMP and the Winnipeg Police Service created a taskforce to review cas es involving missing and murdered women.

That taskforce is charged with the review and investigation of unsolved homicides involving female victims, the review of missing person files involving female victims where foul play is suspected and also analyzing those files to determine what, if any, links exist between them. And I understand that unit has had successes in dealing with some of these cases which I think is a positive thing. As you know, we introduced The Missing Persons Act which was intended to give law enforcement agencies the ability on a timely basis to have the tools to try and find missing women.

One of the frustrations for police is that when someone is reported missing, that doesn't necessarily give the police the ability to get any infor mation about that person if there's no evidence that a crime has been committed. The Missing Persons Act, which Alberta and Manitoba now have, gives some ability to police to try and gather information–could be cellphone records, could be ATM records that are all going to be useful. So we think those are really good things. In October 2009 we announced StreetReach which is a further component of Tracia's Trust, which is Manitoba's annual sexual exploitation strategy.

Although not every woman who goes missing and not everyone who's murdered is sexually exploited, if we were to look at that cohort of the population, you would find that, unfortunately, that is a very dangerous line of work to be involved in. And StreetReach brings together social agencies and law enforcement to identify and connect with children and youth in need of protection from sexual exploitation.

The team's attempting to reduce and eliminate exploitation by working with individual children, and StreetReach has returned more than 150 chil dren to their homes and carried out more than 1,300 visits to homes in search of children. * (16:00) Of course, there are bigger issues. Some of the women who go missing and are murdered are also victims of human trafficking. I know we talked about human trafficking on an international basis.

I think there's a greater awareness of human trafficking also taking place within Canada's borders and sometimes within Manitoba's borders, as young women and, in some cases men, are being are being exploited, which also puts them at great risk.

2884 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 27, 2013 As you know, there's also been legislation to complement the Criminal Code. I know there have been advancements in the Criminal Code, and I give Manitoba MP Joy Smith credit for her work on this file. We have tried to do what we can as a Province, using our legislative capacity to try to improve the situation, as well. So it's a big question. I know the police have done good work on this and they've been able to start moving along with some of the cold cases, if you will.

A big part of it though, is stopping women from going missing and being murdered in the first place. Mr. Helwer: I believe we're about ready to move into the appropriations. I would like to thank the staff for their endeavours to answer my sometimes wandering questions as they came up and back. So I certainly do appreciate their time here. I know it's not the normal course of your day, but we –I really do appreciate the effort you've put into answering questions here. So, thank you. So, we are, Mr. Chair, ready to move into the appropriations. Mr.

Chairperson: Hearing no other questions, we will now proceed to the consideration of the resolutions relevant to this department. I will now call resolution 4.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $177,984,000 for Justice, Criminal Justice, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2014. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 4.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $37,617,000 for Justice, Civil Justice, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2014. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 4.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $222,229,000 for Justice, Corrections, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2014. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 4.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $59,345,000 for Justice, Courts, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2014. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 4.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,004,000 for Justice, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2014. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 4.7: RESOLVED that there be granted t o Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,326,000 for Justice, Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2014. Resolution agreed to. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the department is item 4.1.(

a) the minister's salary, contained in resolution 4.1. At this point, the minister's staff already have left. The floor is open for questions. Mr. Helwer: I move, THAT line item 4.1.(

a) the minister's salary re –be reduced to $1.08. The minister, certainly, is challenged in his – [interjection] Sorry? Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Mr. Chairperson: The member from Brandon West brought the –it has been moved by the honourable member for Brandon West (Mr. Helwer) THAT line item 4.1.(

a) the minister's salary be reduced to $1.08. The motion is in order. Are there any questions or comments on the motion? Mr. Helwer: While going through the last several hours, it certainly appeared to me that the minister is challenged in the management ability of his department and does not quite seem to be up to t he task. I point to a certain lack of understanding of what is contained in the particular budget lines. If you don't know what's in those budget lines, you certainly can't measure and you can't hit the targets and it's impossible, then, to operate within a budget.

So it's really no wonder that this government can't maintain its budgets and constantly goes over. Hon. Jennifer Howard (Minister of Family Services and Labour): I'm happy to be here in this

section of Supply to talk a little bit about some of the work that's being done by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Swan), speak to the resolution that my friend from Brandon West has put forward. And it's interesting in his comments it seems to be the chief rationale for his resolution is his objection to the fact that we're spending money in Justice. And I understand that, and we've certainly

June 27, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2885 heard a lot of objections from the members opposite to any spending of any money to do anything. But I want him to be aware of what the choices are in departments like Ju stice and departments like mine, and I am interested in what choices he would make.

I take it from his rationale that really what he's advocating is that, instead of finding the money to meet the needs of correction workers and jail guards to make sure that you have the people on staff in the jails to make sure that they're able to work safely in those environments, that what he would recommend is instead that you make cutbacks in those areas, that that is a better way to manage the budget. And, certainly, we saw some of the results of that kind of management the last time his party was involved in government.

I think we all remember how dangerous the jail system became because of some of the policies of denying the ability of correction workers to do their job. And, you know, I remember in particular the riot at the Headingley jail that occurred, and I can't remember everything that was in the report about that. The Minister of Justice (Mr.

Swan) may have more information, but I know that, if you return to a system of government like the members opposite have advocated where your interest is in cutting expenditures so close to the bone that you, in fact, begin to affect the health and safety of the people that you ask to do these jobs, then sometimes catastrophic situations can occur. And so everybody, of course, and I think all ministers and deputy ministers work very hard to maintain the budget. But you also do that in an environment knowing that, as a government, you have certain legislative responsibilities.

And I can talk a little bit about my own department. We have a legislated responsibility to protect children who are at risk. We have a legislated responsibility when children are being abused, w hen children are being neglected, to protect those children. We have a legislated responsibility to look after vulnerable adults to make sure that we provide services for adults with disabilities. Now, in my department, in common with the Department of Ju stice, we are the two departments that have overexpenditure issues to manage. That's absolutely true.

In my department, the two areas where that overexpenditure happens most frequently is either in the area of money to provide support for children who are in the care of Child and Family Services, or in the area of providing support, providing dollars to adults who are reliant upon services provided by community living agencies. * (16:10) Now, I understand the importance of managing the money that Manitobans entrust us with, and we work very hard in my department, and I know the Department of Justice works very hard as they go forward to manage the budget and to ask themselves questions about, is this the most efficient and effective use of these dollars?

But we're also very aware that at the core of our mandate–and the core of the mandate of the Justice Department is to protect Manitobans, and sometimes that means that you go overbudget. That's a reality. And if what the members are advocating –that–or what the members are saying, I think, with this resolution, that their view of a more responsible minister would be to bring in the budget exactly as it's forecast, but in so doing to sacrifice the safety of Manitobans. That's a view that we reject.

We think there are many things that we can do, both within Justice and within other parts of the government to make sure that we're delivering the services that Manitobans count on as effectively as possible. And, certainly, as the Department of Justice is looking for those efficiencies, other departments are. You look, for example, at the Department of Health which has managed to reduce over and over again the number of regional health authorities. I think when we came into government there were 13 regional health authorities, as I recall. There were two alone in the city of Winnipeg, if you can believe that.

There was one in the city of Winnipeg that was responsible for hospitals; there was one in the city of Winnipeg that was responsible for long- term and community care: two regional health authorities alone for Winnipeg. In our time in government we've been able to reduce the administrative costs in the health -care budget by reducing the number of RHAs. I think, first, we went –well, the first thing we did was got– get rid of the two in Winnipeg and have one.

And then we made a further reduction, and then in the most recent–last year we made a reduction down to five regional health authorities and if you look at the kind of savings that that has generated, it's generated, as I understand, around 10 or 11 million dollars in savings. And then if you look at some of the expenditures that we're able to do in health care, one of them, of

2886 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 27, 2013 course, is being able to provide cancer -care drugs free of charge to people who decide to live in their home, to stay at home, to be in the community as they struggle with the fight to beat cancer. That's worth about $11 million. It's very clear to me that when you can reduce administrative costs you're able to be more on the front lines. And the same kinds of initiatives are true, of course, in the Department of Justice.

Right now, in front of the Legislature, we have bills that are designed to help the provincial court system manage more eff iciently, provide better service to Manitobans and do so in a more efficient way, and I know we've–I think we've had some debate on some of those bills. One may even be passed through second reading and someday soon will go to a committee.

But it's those kinds of initiatives that are far more visionary than the sort of strategy that members opposite advocate, the strategy of across -the-board, indiscriminate cuts, the strategy of tough love that we've heard espoused by the Leader of the Opposition who's a good practitioner of tough love;

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	40-2-66b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	40th 2nd hansardpdf 66b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	fe346d8c2d68debbdebb6fc7d756616eadd8903c

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