Volume XL Wednesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY ... OF NEWFOUNDLAND Third Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Nwlller 31 a April , 1987

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Mr. .· Speaker, I would like to present to the House of Assembly today statistics regarding Municipal Capital project funding which I verbally informed the House of Assembly of yesterday during Question Period.

As hon. members are aware, projects are being approved three months earlier than previous years which will give municipalities the opportunity to have the necessary design and engineering work completed and tenders called well in advance of the construction season. This will also enable municipalities to have their respective projects completed during the construction season in which they are started, thereby ensuring a better dollar value for the money spent. Mr. Speaker, as I announced yesterday in this hon.

House, government is determined to deal as fairly and as equitably as it can with all municipalities in our Province given the limited funding available for such a large number of requests received. Accusations have been made by Opposition members in an attempt to indicate otherwise. However, Kr. Speaker, such is not the case, and the fact L1613 April 29, 1987 Vol XL that ten out of sixteen Opposition districts in the Province are either 100 per cent fully serviced or are very near completion is clear evidence of governmentts commitment to fair treatment for all. To reiterate yesterdayts comments, Mr.

Speaker, the following Opposition districts are referenced: Burgeo-Bay dtEspoir, fully serviced with water; Gander, fully serviced with water and sewer; Naskaupi, 95 per cent fully serviced with water and sewer; Kenihek, fully serviced with water and sewer; Stephenville, fully serviced with water and sewer; Windsor, fully serviced with water and sewer; St. Barbe, 88 per cent water; the Strait of Belle Isle, 73 per cent; Bonavista North, 70 per cent; and st. Johnts East, 100 per cent. In addition to that, Kr.

Speaker, the district of Bellevue is 43 per cent complete, the district of Fortune - Hermitage is 50 per cent complete, the district of Eagle River since 1981 has had $16 million spent on water and sewer on that one district alone by the federal and provincial governments, mostly federal, $16 million. Mr. Speaker, it must be pointed out also that over 40 per cent of municipalities in Opposition districts did not need to apply for water and sewer funding this year because of that fact. Opposition districts represent 30 per cent of the seats in the Province, however, Mr.

Speaker, during the period 1979 - 1985, 31 per cent of all water and sewer projects approved during that period went to opposition districts. This 31 per cent of No. 31 R1613

projects approved represent 26 per cent of funding approved which is very fair when one considers that up to ten districts out of a total of sixteen are approaching full service of water and/or sewer. In spite of the foregoing, Mr. - Speaker, the most revealing statistic of government fairness in the allocation of capital funding can be seen by this one fact and one fact alone.

There are 112 municipalities in disticts represented by opposition members and a full 62 of those municipalities have water or water and sewer servicing completed. leaving only 50 municipalities in Opposition districts without full service, and it must be remembered that we have over 400 municipalities. In closing, please be assured, Hr. Speaker, of government's commitment to municipalities in our Province. This government has demonstrated that commitment in a tangible way with an increase of over 176 per cent in municipal funding since this administration took office in 1979. Today, Mr.

Speaker, I am tabling detailed information, community by community of the servicing of every single municipality in Opposition districts which will serve to inform members opposite of work yet to be undertaken and to support statistics provided in this statement. HR. MATTHEWS: You should take some of it back. They are getting too much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Ll614 April 29, 1987 Vol XL The bon. the Leader Clf the Opposition. HR. SIMMONS: Hr. Speaker, I would like to respond briefly to the statement in the absence of the gentleman for Burgeo - Bay d' Espoir (Mr.

Gilbert) who is our spoke:sm~n on these matters. MR. BUTT: He is out campaigning. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR ·. SIMMONS: Hr. Speaker, first of a.ll the minister, to his credit, has partly kept the commitment of the Premier, kept it late and kept it partly. The Premier undertook to table in this House prior to Easter the full list, and what the minister has now done, since Easter, is table part of the list. He very carefully tabled the Opposition items, so I now ask him if he would keep the rest of the Premier's commitment and table the details for the government districts as well? SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. SIMMONS: Because, Mr. Speaker, we cannot do a complete assessment unt:ll such time as we get the full list for government districts include!d. Hr. Speaker, there are two or three points that need to be made here. I refer the minister to the bottom of the first page of his statement in which he says, in part, "Such is not the case, and the fact that ten out of sixteen Opposition districts, eb::." I have two points to make to him. Point number one is important. No. 31 Rl614

There are seventeen not sixteen Opposition districts, but that, Mr. Speaker, is typical of the accuracy of his overall statement. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister that either that statement, and I am focusing on the last statement on page 1 of his statement - MR. DOYLE: Seventeen? MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the minister is still having difficulty with that figure. There are. fifteen members . in the official Opposition and two in the the other group, and that, in my arithmetic, makes seventeen. Fifteen plus two equals seventeen. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that we have settled that matter for the minister, let us settle another one. His statement on the bottom of page 1 is either one of two things, it cannot be both of these. It is either an untrue statement - I am not wanting to be unparliamentary - or a statement that is contrary to the facts. Mr. Speaker, if it is true, another statement that is being made by him and his department is not true. I put the two statements before you in context, Mr. Speaker.

He submits to the House that ten of the sixteen Opposition districts are fully serviced or just about there, and then gives a list on the top of the following page. For the purpose of making my point quickly I refer members to the top of page 2, and I refer to i terns' number one, two , three , five and six, in which the minister has indicated that they are fully serviced. He noted that L1615 April 29, 1987 Vol XL number three is 95 per cent serviced, so I will not include that one. Of the first six he indicated that five of the six are fully serviced and the other is 95 per cent serviced.

Now, we have on the record the minister saying that five districts are fully serviced. By implication and by his statement yesterday, if they are fully serviced they do not need funding for water and sewer. Now, Mr. Speaker, I checked yesterday with a senior official in his department and I was informed that ten districts are receiving funding this year. MR. MATTHEWS: Not so. Not so. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: I can take you to the transcript. I know members do not want to hear this. They want to cover this one up all they can. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR.

SIMMONS: We will get a chance to say it later. We have all day, Mr. Speaker. They might not want to hear it but they are going to hear it, and the people of Newfoundland are going to hear it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. No. 31 R1615

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I can wait until the hon. gentleman is finished, because it perhaps would serve better. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is a curious way of doing things. We alleged yesterday that ·the . minister is discriminating against · Opposition districts and giving preferential treatment to Tory districts. So what does he do in order to prove that we are wrong? He brings in half a list, the Opposition list, but he does not bring in the P. C. list.

The list he has brought in does not give us any indication whatsoever what conditions are in the P.C. districts. Mr. Speaker, the problem here is that the minister stands accused and, quite frankly, guilty, of the worst kind of pork barrelling that I have even seen or anybody else has seen. He produces incomplete evidence such as this to try to refute the charges, and, at the same time, makes no reference whatsoever to the other major capital expenditure programme, the 60/40 paving programme which, of course, goes on throughout the entire Province and which is incorporated in the capital money that he puts out.

I can show the minister references he made in Hansard last year to the same thing. When you add it up, it is obvious that there is a tremendous bias towards P. C. districts, that this L1616 April 29, 1987 Vol XL bias has been strong over the last couple of years and it is getting worse year by year, to the point that government has now figured out that it must produce some sort of smoke and mirrors. And, quite frankly, that is all this is, a bunch of smoke and mirrors to try to fool people into thinking tl:at it is not as clear cut as it is.

I cannot understand ho1~ this government has the unmitigated gall to stand there and say that they represent the entire Province when they do such a horrible job in terms of distributing capital works, so much to the Tory districts and so little to the Opposition districts. Mr. Speaker, it is an example of a moral corruption that has seeped into this government that makes it almost laughable if one did not realize that what is happening is in. a whole bunch of Opposition districts people are trying keep their homes and conununi ties clean without benefit of clean water and without sewer systems. Mr.

Speaker, this is not an answer. This is a half answer, and it is comparable to the half truths we have been getting out of the minister for the last couple of years, and it is comparable to the unconscionable way in which this government continues to discriminate against Opposition districts. I do not think the people of this Province will believe this garbage. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Spe!aker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. No. 31 Rl616

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, in line with what the other two people on this side have said I think the minister is doing one thing or the other, and I would suggest at this point that he is misleading the House, even in this statement. AN HON. MEMBER: Are you speaking to the statement, as well? MR. TULK: I am on a point of order. AN HON. MEMBER: . Oh! MR. TULK: The han. gentleman should keep his ears open. The definition given by the minister's department of a fully serviced community means that all homes in a community have the opportunity to be fully serviced with water and sewer. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

TULK: Now, in this Speaker, let me false information. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: statement, point out Mr. some Mr. Speaker, false information in this statement! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. MR. TULK: It is a point of order. Ll617 April 29, 1987 Vol XL MR. SIMMONS: How do you know? MR. TULK: It is a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Would you please sit down. There is no point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, there is no point of order when pointing out false information in a statement? MR. HISCOCK: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege, the han. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, it is unparliamentary for a minister, or anybody, to come into this House of Assembly and present false information, mislead members, or whatever. Concerning my area, there are several misleading facts. On a point of privilege, it should not go out to the general population and to our people. Having said that Forteau is fully serviced when English Point is not, they leave out the communities of Black Tickle and Williams Harbour and Paradise River and Charlottetown and Pinsent Arm and Norman Bay.

And to say that no applications came in from West St. Modeste and the other areas! Mr. Speaker, all the members on this side can get up in the same way if the minister is going to get up and only present Liberal districts. The No. 31 Rl617

Premier pointed out that he would have it all tabled, and each year we still have to wait for them. So, Mr. Speaker, the government is smarting on this, they are basically saying to the people of St. John's and all the urban areas where you got water and sewerage - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am listening to the hon. member's point of privilege, but he is continuing on objecting to a statemene t.hat was made. As f~r as I can see he said that the statement is not factual. - That is · not for me to judg, whether it is or not, I am assuming it is.

But if the hon. member says that somebody is deliberately misleading the House, now that is a completely different thing. I am not suggesting to the bon. member that he does so. MR. HISCOCK: A Ministerial Statement has come in. As a result of this Ministerial Statement the Speaker has no other choice but to accept, when a member presents something, being honourable, as members are, that it is factual.

I am pointing this out to the House, and allowing the Minister of Municipal Affairs to say and admit that this was done in a rush, a rush job, that it is not all correct and that he will go back to his officials and have them bring in the full list and have this rectified instead of having lies go out across this Province. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have already mentioned to the bon. member that he is making a speech rather than trying to make a point of privilege, which he is L1618 April 29, 1987 Vol XL not doing at the present time. MR. HISCOCK: Mr.

Speaker, in getting to the point of privilege, one is allowed to have a

preamble and to e}~lain. MR. OTTENHEIMER: You have got to say something, too. MR. HISCOCK: The point of privilege is quite simple, Mr. Speaker: There are misleading facts in this, and it is incumbent upon us to keep this House of Assembly at a high level of debate, with facts, so that we do not use our media, that we do not go and tell our people in this Province political propaganda, that what is said in a report has to be backed up with knowledge. When they mentioned that there were five communities, they deliberately left them out, and also with the other parts . So I asked this, Mr.

Speaker, to give the Minister of Municipal Affairs an opportunity. I do n<lt like using the words "mislead••, "liar .. , or any other ones, it is not my style, but I will ask ·the !finister of Municipal Affairs to take back the Ministerial Statement and correct it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member implied that the minister was lying. MR. TULK: He did not. MR. SPEAKER: I ask him to withdraw that. MR. HISCOCK: To that, Mr. Speaker, I said that it is not my style to be using the No. 31 R1618

words .. misled", or .. liar", and it is not my style. I give the Minister of Municipal Affairs, on behalf of all the people of Newfoundland and the honour that they have entrusted to him as being a minister, an opportunity to correct, to level with our people, and now stop playing propaganda and politics with the funding. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Government House Leader. .. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I will try to reply in terms of the high level alluded to by my hon. friend from Eagle River.

He has also mentioned how much he appreciated knowledge, and went on to camouflage exhibition of any. However, page twelve of Beauchesne will very clearly and succinctly settle the whole point, even to the satisfaction, I would think, of my bon. friend from Eagle River. And it says, "A dispute arising between two Members, as to allegations of facts, does not fulfill the conditions of parliamentary privilege." MR. SIMMON'S: To that point of order, Kr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: We are on a point of privilege, are we not, now? MR. SIMMONS: Were you speaking to the point of privilege? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes. MR.

SIMMONS: Ll619 April 29, 1987 Vol XL I might even have the right to speak to the point of privilege in that case, Mr. Speaker. I will try it. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. member. MR. SIMMONS: Rising on Sir, if Waterford a point of privilege, the gentleman from Kenmount (Mr. Ottenheimer) is going to quote - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: Can you not keep those vying sheep quite at all up there? MR. SPEAKER: Would the hon. member please speak, if he wishes? MR. SIMMONS: I am trying very hard, with no protection. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member will withdraw ·that cormnent now. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, Sir, and thank you for the protection. Thank you very much, Sir. Now, Mr. Speaker, to the point of privilege. The gentleman from Waterford - Kenmount quotes page twelve of Beauchesne. Let me quote, Mr. Speaker, for your edification, Sir, your further knowledge, page 205 of Maingot. AN' HON. MEMBER: Who? No. 31 Rl619

MR. SIMMONS: M-a-i-n..,.g-o-t, Maingot, page 205, 2-0-5, the paragraph at the bottom of the page, the paragraph begins with the words, "To allege that a member", etc. , and then says in the third sentence, "However, deliberately misleading statements may be treated as a contempt." The minister has made such statements and is guilty of a contempt. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, to that point of privilege. Am I allowed to speak on anything, I wonder? · MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member - MR. TULK: I want to add further to it, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Would you please sit down? MR.

OTTENHEIMER: We have had an even number from both sides. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition has implied that the hon. minister has made deliberately misleading statements. I ask him to withdraw that now. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, in the town of Carmanville the water system began fifteen years ago. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: The minister says it just started. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! L1620 April 29, 1987 Vol XL MR. SIMMONS: That is a deliberate misleading of the House, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

SIMMONS: Whether you understand it or not, it is a deliberate misleading of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member will withdraw the statement that the mini:::ter is deliberately misleading the House. MR. TULK: Why? MR . SPEA.KER: If not, I will name him right away. MR. SIMMO NS: In the interest of obeying the threat from the Chair SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: - I withdraw without equivocation the inference that he is deliberately misleading because I cannot say it in this Chamber.

The minister is misleadin@; but I cannot say it here, that something started fifteen years ago did not just start. Now, I ask you, if it started fifteen years ago, did it just start? Are you telling me that? It is called newspeak, black is white. MR. SIMMS: It is called respecting the authority of the Chair that you know nothing about. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of privilege, there No. 31 R1620

is no prima facie case. MR. SIMMONS: Surprise! Surprise! MR. DECKER: Mr . Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Before dealing with that, the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) was asked to withdraw a comment and he has not done so. I ask him now to do so. MR. liiSCOCK: Mr. Speaker, Hansard - I if you would check understand with all the noise from the other side it is very difficult to hear at times and the hon.

President of the Council nodded when I said it - my statement said, and I will say it for the third time, it is not my style to use words like 'mislead' and it is not my style to use the word • liar • , and I have not done so in this House, and I hope I will not have to. I did say that the Minister of Municipal Affairs has an opportunity to take this back, do more research on it, and bring it back a little bit more factual. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have heard enough from the hon. member. I will take your word for that. I will check with Hansard. I would like to review it. I may have misunderstood.

I am quite happy, if you say so, that I did misunderstand it. But I am going to check Hansard. MR. TULK: Good! MR. HISCOCK: L1621 April 29, 1987 Vol XL To that, Mr. Speaker - again I do not want to impose upon the time or the privilege of the Chair - I did not say it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member is not in order now to speak. MR. HISCOCK: Well, I was going to say, to save you time, I withdraw it if I said it, which I did not. SOME HON. MEMBERS: You did not say it? MR. TULI<: No. MR. HISCOCK: He has better things to do - MR. SIMMONS: I wish he would do them. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle on a point of order. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to accuse anyone of carrying on any unparliamentary work in this House. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, whether deliberately or not, and I do not think it is deliberate, the hon. minister is giving misleading information. He talks about the town of Flowers Cove as being fully serviced. The town of Flowers Cove, Mr. Speaker, is drinking fuel oil. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! We are on Statments by Ministers at the present time and that can be brought up at a later date. No. 31 R1621

MR. DECKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I know I am a new member, but I cannot see how this House can allow a minister to bring misleading information, albeit not deliberate, how this can be allowed and there is no avenue whereby we can allow the minister to correct it. Flowers Cove is drinking fuel oil and -st. Anthony is drinking ~ raw sewerage. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The usual procedure we have in this House is that a minister makes a statement and we usually allow the main Opposition half the time to reply and the other two members have half that time, and that is as we are going to carry on. MR. SIMMONS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a point of order, I submit, is always in order in this House except when there is a point of privilege on the floor. That was the point you so correctly brought me to attention on, so I did learn something this afternoon already. Now, a point of order, Mr. Speaker, is always in order.

I submit to you, Sir, that a Ministerial Statement is not before the House. The minister has given his statement, I spoke on behalf of the official Opposition, the gentleman for L1622 April 29, 1987 Vol XL Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) spoke on behalf of the other group in this House and that matter was concluded. It was then that my friend for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) rose on a point of order, and there have been other points of order since. But to suggest to the gentleman for the Strait of Belle Isle that he should reschedule his point of order to a more appropriate time?

I submit to you, Sir, there is no more appropriate time and he should be allowed to proceed with his point of order. MR. SIMMS: He did not make a point of order. MR. SIMMONS: He never got a chance to make it. You would not let him. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader. the Government House MR.

OTTENHEIMER: On the point of order, I think what it really boils down to is that the hon. gentleman is alleging that either the facts given by my bon. colleague are not as he understands the facts: to be, and is suggesting that the Chair should preclude somebody from giving facts which in the bon. gentleman's opinion are inaccurate. To follow that would mean that the Chair had the responsibility to investigate any allegations of facts which are brought in, but the Chair is not an investigative body.

That, I think, is what is clearly meant in that one sentence very clearly put by Beauchesne, and that is that 'A dispute, arising between two No. 31 R1622

Members as to allegations of facts ... ' Different members can make different allegations of facts. Only one can be true in the mind of God, but He is not here. The Speaker does not have the responsibility - MR. SIMMONS: Direct from the horse's mouth, that is. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, at least it is from his mouth. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, , hear! MR. OTTENHEIMER: The Speaker does not have the responsibility, and indeed it is outside of his role, to investigate to see which set of alleged facts is correct. I mean, how is the Speaker going to do that? Is he going to act like an Auditor General?

You have one member here making certain allegations of facts, another member making another allegation of facts, and the Speaker has to be an investigative agent to find out. That is why it is very clearly put, and it has been clearly ruled on in the House, that a dispute arise between two members as to allegation of facts is not a matter of order or privilege. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have heard enough. down. Please sit There is no point of order. now past three-thirty and calling Oral Questions. L1623 April 29, 1987 It is I am Vol XL MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A new point of order, the bon. the member for Fogo. MR. SIMMS: We should be into Question Period now. You realize that, do you not? All · HON. MEMBER: We have to go to Private Member's Day at four o'clock. MR. SIMMONS: You can play whatever games you want, this is going to come out sooner or later. MR. TULK: The truth of the matter is that I rose in my place to make a point of order, and I think it has happened on three occasions now this afternpon, and was told to sit down. I sat down, I think, on all three occasions.

What is being disputed here is not whether the Speaker is supposed to be an investigative agency. What is being disputed here is the right of the han. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle to make a point of order at any point that he wants. That is the dispute~ MR. SIMMS: The only person who would be able to determine (inaudible). MR. TULK: That is what is really happening here . The Ministerial Statement was over - MR. SIMMONS: He did, he told him not to do it now. He told him not to do it now. MR. TULK: - it was past, and that gentleman, as do the other fifty-one in this No. 31 R1623

Legislature, has the right to rise in his seat at any point, unless there is a point of privilege raised, and make a point of order. And I want to suggest to Your Honour that, indeed, if he wishes to make it now, as I wished to make a point of order and was cut off, that he be allowed to do so. SOME' HOM'. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: He has to be heard before the Speaker can rule. MR. SIMMS: Maingot from Fogo. MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member wish to continue? MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, you called Oral Questions. I have a question if we are going to - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DECKER: Mr.

Speaker, I was going to rise on a point of order. The hon. House Leader - MR. SPEAKER: We are dealing with the point of order by the hon. the member for Fogo at the present time. There is no point of order. MR. DECKER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: The bon. House Leader said that L1624 April 29, 1987 Vol XL there are conflicting facts being presented to the House. Okay, I accept that. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am saying that the people in Flowers Cove are drinking fuel oil. The hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs is saying that the town is fully serviced for water. These two facts are not compatible. I am saying they are drinking fuel oil and they want money to clean it up. Now I am prepared to go back and do my research and come back and tell this House whether or not the town of Flowers Cove is drinking fuel oil if the minister will go back and revi1ew his statement, Mr. Speaker. Because, obviously, the bon. minisll:.er has been ill-advised, just as he has been ill-advised about: St.

Anthony, where the people are drinking sewerage, just as he is ill-advised about the community of Goose · Cove, Mr. Speaker, where they got a chlorinator last year and still have not been given the money to get the thing hooked up, where they are still drinking human waste in their water system. So the fact is I will, Mr. Speaker, review my facts, but I would like to give the hon. minister the opportunity to review his facts, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. It is now Oral Question time1. Oral Questions MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Meni.hek. No. 31 R1624

MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Justice (Ms Verge). On May 24 last year there was an incident on Fleming Street that I complained to the minister in writing about awhile back. Since that time it has come to our attention that the Chief Constable who led the raid is now up for charges on a separate incident. At that time we asked for an investigation, which we received but which was completely inadequate.

My question to the minister · at this • time is: Is she now _ willing to put in place a judicial enquiry to look into the facts and the behavior of the police on that May 24th. evening on Fleming Street? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the short answer is no. As the member for Menihek has said, he wrote me and requested an investigation into the way the police handled the investigation on Fleming Street last May. Officials of my department dealt with his request and had an internal investigation conducted which yielded the conclusion that the police had not acted improperly.

Another avenue available to any person concerned with activity on the part of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary is making a complaint to the Ombudsman under the Parliamentary Commissioner Act. That Statute was amended by this Legislature a couple of years ago specifica1ly to provide that the mandate of the Ombudsman includes dealing with complaints about the conduct of members of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. For Ll625 April 29, 1987 Vol XL those reasons I do not consider it at all appropriate to have a judicial enquiry into the police conduct on Fleming Street last Kay.

The matter of another criminal charge raised by the hon. member in his question is totally irrelevant to what happened on Fleming Street. That matter will be dealt with by the Criminal Courts and by the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary internal disciplinary procedures. As for Fleming Street, there are still criminal charges which will be dealt with that have not yet been dealt with by the Criminal Courts. So charges laid at Fleming Street that night have not been dealt with fully by the Criminal Courts. That remains. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. PEACH: Get the member for st. John's East (Mr.

Long) to ask the question. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: My supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Justice: I submit to her, by the way, that the fact that the officer who led the raid is now up on charges himself for abusing his trust in another incident is particularly relevant because there are allegations about him. MR.. SPEAI<ER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: As it stand now, if I were to have a complaint against the RCMP in a like-minded situation, I would be No. 31 Rl625

able to present my case RCMP Commissioner, and if not satisfied I could then appeal board listen to it. to the I was have an My question to the minister is this: Since I have met with her in the past and put forward my request that we have a civilian review board for the Newfoundland Constabulary, would the minister please tell · us whether or not her · government intends to put in a civilian review board that would allow us to lay complaints against the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary in certain instances and have an independent civilian review board review the particular situation and give us the determination on whether or not the police have acted properly?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I have already pointed out that we have in this Province a civilian authority to which complaints about the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary may be referred. That authority is the Ombudsman, the authority is given in the Parliamentary Commissioner Act.

The provision of the act empowering the Ombudsman to deal with complaints about the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary was provided through an amendment passed by this Legislature just a couple of years ago, an amendment that was proposed to this Assembly by my colleague, the present Government House Leader. MR. FENWICK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE.AI{ER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Menihek. L1626 April 29, 1987 Vol XL MR. FENWICK: That is not good enough. With all due respect it is not good enough at all.

There are fourteen other individuals whose life are in slings for the last year because of the actions of this officer. Mr. Speaker, the Ombudsman can do an internal investigation but he has no responsibility to have a public enquiry with public witnesses. My question then to the minister is this: In 60 per cent of this Province I have the right to go before a civilian review board and review the offenses of any actions whatsoever of the RCMP. Why is :::he not allowing us to have the same sort of protection with regard to actions of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I have already told the bon. member that there is a civilian review authority to deal with complaints about thE! Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. In his last question he expressed some frustration about charges laid on Fleming Street that have yet to·be dealt with by the courts. One of those cases has been adjudicated by the provincial court and an appeal to a higher co1llrt is pending. For various le@;itimate reasons these matters tak1:! time, but they will all be dealt with properly with full rights accorded the accused people. MR. DECKER: Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the1 Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: No. 31 R1626

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the bon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Mr. Speaker, in St . Anthony today a group of people who normally take things very logically and very rationally are demonstrating, showing the displeasure with the way they were treated with the municipal grants. I would ask the minister will he explain, will he tell the House, why he refused to make capital funding available to the town of St. Anthony? MR. SPEAKER: The ~on. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would be very pleased to answer the bon. gentleman's question, but first I am going to take the opportunity to clear up two misleading statements made in the House today, one by the Leader of the Opposition and one by the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, with regard to two communi ties in this Province, Mr. Speaker, one being Flowers Cove and one being Carmanville. MR. HISCOCK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr.

Speaker, again because of the noise you may have a problem hearing, but the member for the Strait of Belle Isle asked a point-blank question; then the minister got up and the minister said, I will clear up two things that were said on points of order. He had the opportunity to get up on the points of order but L1627 April 29, 1987 Vol XL did not. The question that has been directed is a specific question: Why was not funding funded for the town of St. Anthony? Quite clear. Not anything that I had to say, not anything that anybody else has said, but a point-blank question.

If he wants - to clear it up I suggest he come in tomorrow and issue a new factual Ministerial Statement. MR. DOYLE: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order, what I was attempting to do was clear up two pieces of information, made available to the House today regarding the community of Flowers Cove and the community of Carmanville, in which one bon. member stated that the community of Flowers Cove was not fully serviced with water. Number one, it is fully serviced with water.

He made the statement that there was fuel oil leaking into the system and, as a result, considered that to be not fully serviced. What we did in this year's capital programme was to provide $165,000 to correct that problem, which makes it fully serviced. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order, just a difference of opinion between two hon. menbers. No. 31 R1627

The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Now, Mr. Speaker, to answer that hon. gentleman's question with regard to St. Anthony, this year the Department of Municipal Affairs made approximately $570,000 available to the hon. gentleman's district. There are a number of communities in his district that yet need to be serviced so we concentrated on those areas of his district. With regard to St. Anthony, St. Anthony is fully serviced with water and parti'ally serviced with sewer. But their turn will roll around as well, Mr. Speaker. MR. DECKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the member for the Strait Isle. MR. DECKER: hon. the of Belle Mr. Speaker, I .ask the minister if St. Anthony is so fully serviced that it is such a desirable place - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DECKER: - how does the minister explain that on September 23, 1985, his colleague, Junior, the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Butt), signed a letter ordering the St. Anthony Town Council to replace the lift station which is leaking raw sewage into the St. Anthony River, which is a residential

section of St. Anthony? Is this what the minister calls fully serviced? Ask his own colleague in the L1628 April 29, 1987 Vol XL Department of the Environment! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: That does not take away from the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the Town of St. Anthony is fully serviced with water. It is fully ser:-viced with water. There are isolated pockets in the community, one which the bon. gentleman alludes to, that need some attention, but for all intents and purposes the community is fully servicE~d with water . . MR. DECKER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary . MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, if St. AnthonJr is so fully serviced how can the minister explain that on August 14, 1986 the Department of Health ordered the town of st. Anthony to. replace their worn out chlorinator so that the people of St. Anthony are not forced to drink contaminated water? Expla in that one. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Mr . Speaker, aware, the hon. playing around little isolated as everybody is gentleman is just with one or two facts. If he wishes to allude to the c:i ty of St. John's, Mr:-.

Speaker, 1:hat is 100 per cent serviced by water and sewer, there is still raw sewage leaking into the harbour of St. John's as well. No. 31 Rl628

So, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is just playing with words. He is only playing with unsubstantiated facts. There are very, very isolated areas that may need attention, but for the most

part it is fully serviced. MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would have liked to direct this question to the · Minister of Municipal Affairs but the events of the last couple of days have indicated to me that we have to doubt the accuracy of what he says in this House. If the hon. the Government House Leader is finished his lunch, I will direct the question to him instead.

Would the Government House Leader tell me and tell this House what his government's policy is regarding how and when municipal capital grants are announced and whether or not he believes that members of the House should be given advised about the courtesy of being when announcements are to be made for their respective districts? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne will clearly point out that ministers are asked questions in the area of their responsibility.

It would be very insulting if I did not refer that matter to the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs who is so knowledgeable in all these matters. Ll629 April 29, 1987 Vol XL MR. KELLAND: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Quite clearly my question was on government policy not Municipal Affairs policy, and you are representing the Premier as the House Leader. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, on that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Government policy is not in a vacuum. It is government policy with respect to Municipal Affairs, government policy with respect to Finance, and government policy with respect to Environment. And the hon. the Minister of Environment is one of the hon. gentleman's favorites. The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs has all of these facts at his fingertips, and he is so well informed and so eager to share his information that he is the man to do it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

OTTENHEIMER: He is an outstanding expert on the policy of the government with respect to Municipal Affairs and he is the hon. minister to answer that question. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I would be quite happy to answer that question for the hon. gentleman. No. 31 R1629

MR. KELLAND: No ruling on the point of order, Mr. Speaker, yet? Are you ruling on the point of order? MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a supplementary. I did not ask the minister anything. MR. SPEAKER: The question was directed to the Government House Leader and he asked the han. Minister --of Municipal Affairs to answer it. Presumably, if you do now want him to answer, that seems all right. MR. KELLAND: On a point of order still, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the han. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: No, I do not wish him to answer.

That is why I asked the Government House Leader. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Can the Government House Leader tell me if the government supports this particular approach? The Minister of Municipal Affairs, in previous conversations with him, had promised me that he would - MR. DOYLE,: What was:the question? MR. KELLAND: The question was, does the Ll630 April 29, 1987 Vol XL government support this? DR. COLLINS: Why the

preamble? MR. KELLAND: Does he support this? I have already asked my questio1n, Mr. Speaker. Let poor old Dr. John sit back for awhile. Do you support the this procedure whereby the Minister of Municipal Affairs has promised to me, as a member representing a district, that he would advise me in advance of any municipal capital grants that were going to be announced for my district, but the minister did not do that and, instead the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) MR. DOYLE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Kr.

Speaker, the information that the bon. gentleman is conveying to the House right now is factually incorrect. I promised the han. gentleman I would approve the projects for his districts, which I did. I did not promise him at any time that I would get t:ogether with him and spoonf eed him, and tell him all about what was being approved in the Department of Municipal Affairs . I promised him that I would approve the projects in his district. That promise has been kept with $330,000 for the district of Naskaupi this year. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! No. 31 R1630

MR. DECKER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker? MR.. SPEAI<ER: To that point of order, there is obviously a difference of opinion between bon. members and no point of order. MR. DECKER: I do not get a· chance to speak to the point of order, Mr. Speaker? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAI<ER: This is question time. MR. :KELLAND: May I continue with my question, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAI<ER: The bon. the member for Naskaupi, a final supplementary .

MR.. :KELLAND: I ask the Government House Leader, does the government support the approach whereby a minister can promise me, as an individual member of the House, that he will inform me, through courtesy, of impending grants, and does he support the policy or the procedure adopted by the Minister of Municipal Affairs whereby he had his colleague, the member for Torngat Mountains, go into Labrador and make the announcements for all the Labrador districts, again without the common courtesy of advising the MHAs that that was about to be done? MR. TULI<: What? What?

MR.. :KELLAND: Do you support that or does your Ll631 April 29, 1987 Vol XL government support that? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Government House Leader. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I have the impression it is a loaded question. I. have the impression that is not a question totally based on fact or objection assessment. I have the feeling it is a little bit loaded. MR. :KELLAND: Will you unload it with the answer? MR. OTTENHEIMER: However, it is only the question that is loaded. I am not suggesting any other matter is loaded, only the question is loaded.

But I think the best way of responding to it is this: The government has the utmost confidence in the ability, the competence, the energy, the dynamism, the integrity, and whatever else - MR. BUTT: Oh, oh! No courtesy! MR. OTTENHEIMER: and courtesy as well. courtesy, very good. And drive and the acumen of the Minister of Municipal Affairs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Yes, the bon. The bon. the member for Port de Grave . MR. EFFORD: No . 31 R1631

My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. KELLAND: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry, I did not hear it. MR. KELLAND: The point of order is that the rules ·· of this is a main question, one supplementary and a final supplementary, and because of the shenanigans of the Minister of Municipal Affairs and others I only got to ask one supplementary, so I. , would like the opportunity to ask a final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: There is no rule about one, two or three questions. I recognized the hon . the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To the Minister of Municipal Affairs, and very clearly I want the minister to understand my question. • MR. MATTHEWS: Keep it clean. MR. EFFORD: Now, Pinnochio, be quiet. In his statement the minister says very clearly that last year the town of Clarke • s Beach got $269,000 in a grant to put some water and sewer in the town. I would ask the minister to tell this House when that amount of money was approved? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Mr.

Speaker, it is absolutely unbelievable that you can have a L1632 April 29, 1987 Vol XL member representing Port d,e Grave and he does not know what was approved in his own district last year. That money was approved in Port de Grave last year in the area of $26 9, 000 and it was used for a very good purpose. If I can correctly recall, it was used to put water and sewer services into the Pentecostal Home in the town of Clarke's Beach. I believe that is what the money was used for. That is factual information, Mr. Speake~. and if the hon. gentleman wishes to dispute it he is free to do so. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, over could not hear. I quick answer. Did say that was approved MR. DOYLE: Yes. MR. EFFORD: the noise I just want a the minister last year? The minister knows full well what he just said is misleading information. That grant was approved before the election of 1985 when one Randy Coll ins was the member for the Port de Grave district. That is misleading information. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Does the member have a question to ask? MR. EFFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The minister just gave misleading information.

I would like to ask the minister is he not showing fa,vourism towards the Tory districts and against the Liberal districts when the four districts surrounding No. 31 R1632

Port de Grave district have gotten over $8 million in the last two years and Port de Grave district got a total of $80, 000? Is that not pork barreling? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. EFFORD: It was approved in 1985. AN HON. MEMBER: The Mayor of Clarke's Beach. That is your problem. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. EFFORD: Hold on, Pinnochio! Be quiet. MR. DOYLE: Mr.

Speaker, in answering the hon. gentleman's question you have to take into consideration the fact of the amount of servicing that is already available in the hon. gentleman's district as opposed to the areas around the district of Port de Grave. For example, my own district of Harbour Main has less than 5 per cent servicing, as opposed to his zone, in the district of Port de Grave which has 60 per cent servicing in the town of Bay Roberts, has 70 per cent servicing in Brigus - MR. EFFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR.

EFFORD: Ll633 April 29, 1987 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, I very clearly stood on my feet and asked the Minister of Municipal Affairs a question pertaining to the amounts of money given out to surrounding districts in the vicinity of $8 million compared to $80,000. I do not want an answer pertaining to Harbour Main district. I ask the question is it or is it not pork-barrelling? MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, he may not want to hear the fact but whether he wants to hear them or not he is going to. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

DOYLE: I think, Mr. Speaker, that is why hon. gentlemen are so upset today. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. EFFORD: There is a point of order on the floor. Sit down, boy. You are making a fool of yourself. MR. SPEAKER: Before the han. minister finishes, I would like to say there is no point of order. MR. SIMMONS: Surprise! Surprise! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I said a moment ago the hon. gentlemen are getting very upset No. 31 Rl633

today them because we with all have the provided factual information regarding their own districts and they now know, Mr. Speaker, they do not have a leg to stand on when they accuse the Department of Municipal Affairs of pork-barrelling. Now to deal with the bon. gentleman from Port de Grave, as I started out a moment ago to say, Mr. Speaker, he wishes to compare surrounding districts with the district of Port de Grave. Well, if he wants to compare the district of Port de Grave with the district of Harbour Main - MR. EFFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I need the protection of the Chair. I asked the question, Mr. Speaker, is it or is it not pork-barrelling? A simple yes or no, Mr. Speaker. That is the point I want to make and that is the question I asked-the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the House Leader. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman's point of order has no validity. Obviously he may ask his questions but he may not determine how the bon. gentleman would answer it. He cannot say, ..

Here is the question,., answer yes or no... The bon. gentleman formulates his answer within the rules, according to his own manner of speech. And he may not have the succinctness L1634 April 29, 1987 Vol XL of the bon. gentleman from Port de Grave who puts his questions in seven or eight words. Maybe the hon. minister needs ten or twelve. But the hon. gentleman cannot dictate to the minister how he is to answer. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, to the point of order, the member for p,ort de Grave is asking for some relevance. The Chair and the House are aware of the rule of relevance. That is the first point. The second point is on page eleven, 31 (e), of our Standing Orders where it says, .. A Minister may in his discretion decline to ~nswer any question... That is true, but he cannot be irrelevant to the question that was asked because the rules of this House address the question of relevancy at all times. MR. J. CARTER: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: I suppose if I knew as much as the member for st. John's South (Mr. J.

Carter) thought he knew I would be talking all the time too. Mr. Speaker, if he wants to decline that is fine, but if he wants to answer he ought to be relevant I submit. MR. SPEAKER:, To that point of order, there is a difference of opinion between two bon. members. No. 31 Rl634

___ .;, __________ _ MR. SIMMONS: Surprise! KR. SPEAKER: It is now time for motion. four o'clock. the private It is member's The motion hon. the North. is in member the for name st. of the John's The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands adjourned the debate, and he has five minutes left. The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: Only five Speaker! because I today. minutes remaining, Mr. That is unfortunate have so much to say Mr.

Speaker, just to refresh everybody's memory, because it has been a couple of weeks since the House first began debate on this resolution so ably presented by my colleague, the member for St. John's North, it is a very short motion. I just want to read it to refresh everybody's memory. "WHEREAS the Royal Commission on Employment and Unemployment emphasizes the importance of the Educational System in Economic Development; and "WHEREAS the government has announced plans for a Provincial College System to be ini Hated by September of 1987; "THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that Government be implement changes curriculum; and encouraged to in the school "BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Ll635 April 29, 1987 Vol XL Provincial College System provide appropriate courses to meet the social and economic needs of the regions concerned." Mr. Speaker, this resolution presented by the member for st. John's North, of course, is a very timely resolution, mostly because the government has already indicated, in its interim responses, I guess, to the Royal Commission that it fully intends to do just what is outlined in this resolution.

Therefore, I am sure members on this side of the House at least, will have no difficulty in supporting the resolution and voting wholeheartedly to support the resolution when the time comes to take the vote at the end of the day. I just want to spend the last couple of minutes that I have remaining to me in my speaking time by making some comments with respect to the proposed or talked about changes in the post-secondary institutions, i.e. the development of a new community college system for the Province through the redevelopment of the vocational schools.

I speak with some knowledge, I guess, and some experience in this matter, Mr. Speaker, because the vocational school at Grand Falls has been already identified as the headquarters for the Central Newfoundland community college campus and it will encompass the campuses of the vocational schools in Baie Verte, Springdale, Lewisporte, and Gander, I believe is the other one. So it is a very tidy community college campus area. There are other steps that will now take place in the next number of months and years to come. One No. 31 Rl635

of the major objectives of government is to try to provide at all of these institutions around the Province access to as many significant programmes that are available at the major post-secondary institutions now, but unfortunately mostly only available here in St. John's, the Fisheries and Marine Institute, the Cabot Institute, Memorial University and so on. One of the primary objectives of government • s announced intentions, and I am sure what the bon. memb~r for St. John • s North means in his t'esolution, is that we. should provide access for students outside of the St.

John's area to all these kinds of progranunes. I have every confidence that the government will do just that. Obviously it will be impossible to do it in one year or two years or maybe even three years because there are so many institutions around the Province, but it will be done over time.

I have every thought in my mind, at least, that the government will begin to implement a lot of its stated intentions with respect to the brokering of first year university progranunes and the brokering of other programmes that are available, food technology courses, quality assurance courses and those types of things that are now available at the major institutions here, brokering them out to the campuses or former vocational schools in other parts of the Province. I particularly hope that Grand Falls will be one of those sites and one of those locations.

The people out in that area have long been looking for it. In fact, they have offered first university courses out there for the last Ll636 April 29, 1987 Vol XL four or five years. My colleague from Windsor, my friend from Windsor, who accompanies me to most of my press conferences in Grand Falls these days to get on some of the action and to see some of the good things that are happening out in the Central Newfoundland area, I would not be surprised if we get the opportunity to announce some new changes for the new community college progranune in Grand Falls.

I might have occasion to invite the member to come along and join me at another press confer·ence in the near future. You never know. MR. FLIGHT: Do not do it too often. It might backfire one of these days. MR. SIMMS: I doubt it, Mr. Speaker, · I doubt it very much. The very worst that could happen is that the member for Windsor - Buchans might think and might threaten to cross the floor of the House to sit over on this side and that is not likely to happen, Kr. Speaker, either from his own perspective or desires, nor from ours for sure. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, as I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted by the member for Windsor - Buchans - I will not be putting this in The Ad,ertiser by the way, 'Graham' - that is an objective that the government has and I am optimistic that something will develop in the very, very near future in a positive way throughout the whole Province but specifically, if I might be parochial enough, I hope something will develop in Grand Falls: and in the Central Newfoundland Community College area. MR. SPEAKER: No. 31 R1636

Order, please! The hon. minister's time is up. MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In any event I will certainly be supporting this resolution and I urge members opposite to support the resolution. Thank you, Mr. Speaker .. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I like the strong words used in the resolutions put forward by government members. I like the incisiveness of the words. Words demanding absolute and expedient action. That is what a resolution should be, Mr. Speaker.

I do not believe a government member over there ever studied what a resolution should be. If they ever got the resolutions passed through a school, a secondary institution that studies resolutions, not one government resolution would be accepted. Look at the resolution in this one. The minister closed off his remarks by demonstrating the lack of ability that they have, the lack of control of the English language in terms of being able to select the correct words, the words that they want to show the action that they are intending from a resolution.

The minister demonstrated . it when he 'urged, urged' members opposite. I wish that word would be cut out of the English language, 'urge' and to L1637 April 29, 1987 Vol XL look in to see resolutions 'urging' the government. What a weak word, 'urging' the government. Let us look at this resolution and see how powerful it is. A resolution should be strong. There should be no ambiguity in terms of what it asks to do and in what it seeks to do and what its results will be. No ambiguity, no vagueness! It can be clear what the resolution wants done. Let us see if this resolution is this way.

"WHEREAS the Royal Commission on Employment and Unemployment emphasizes the importance of the Educational System in Economic Development; and "WHEREAS government has announced plans for a Provincial College System to be ini Hated by September 1987; "THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that Government be implement changes curriculum;" encouraged to in the school Yes, I certainly would like to encourage this government to do that. With the slowness of this crowd in getting things done, Mr. Speaker, you are going to need more than 'encourage' let me tell you. When we look at this Province and see the economic malaise around us, to see the economic mess that we are in, certainly we are going to have to do more than encourage. When I talk in a few moments I want demonstrate the weaknesses in the educational system in this Province.

Let me tell you, we are going to have to do more than encourage the government to implement changes in the school curriculum, but I certainly will encourage them. I certainly do and many educators throughout this No. 31 R1637

Province like to encourage them. Many young people would like · to encourage them, Mr. Speaker. AN' HON. MEMBER: Are you running? MR. LUSH: I may. I have not fully made up my mind yet. MR. DECKER: He will not run away. MR. LUSH: .. AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Provincial College System provide appropriate courses to meet the social and economic needs of the regions concerned ... Well, Mr. Speaker, I certainly hope they do.

I would expect that is why they are set up. ,.AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Provincial College System provide appropriate courses to meet the social and economic needs of the regions concerned ... Yes, Mr. Speaker, I certainly believe, I certainly agree with the spirit of this resolution . But, if I were making the resolution I would certainly strengthened the words. I would not be asking that the government be encouraged, I would be asking that we demand the government, that is what we would do, not encourage them, that we demand the government do those things.

That they improve our educational system, a system, Hr. Speaker, that is crying for improvement, our educational system is crying out for improvement. We have, for starters, drop out rate in all Mr. Speaker, that is problem, the highest L1638 April 29, 1987 the highest of Canada. a serious drop out Vol XL rate. Obviously, the conv ,erse of that is true. We have the lowest retention rate in Canada. Mr. Speaker, that is a question that has not been addressed. Why do we have the highest drop out rate in Canada? Why do we have less people attending post-SE!condary institutions than any oth4~r area in Canada?

Why do we have more high school drop outs than any other area in Canada? That is the question that has to be addressed. Mr. Speaker, there are many reasons for this. I will outline or suggest a couple of them. One is that the curriculum is not meeting the needs of young people. They are frustrated with the curriculum, and they quit. But much larger than that, Mr. Speaker, particularly today, they see no hope. They see no future. They see so many people unemployed that they see no purpose in getting an education and, therefore, they just drop out of school. They just drop out.

They see no purpose · in getting an education. So, somewhere along the line, we fail. Yes, Mr. Speaker, we certainly have to improve our curriculum, improve the school curriculum and make it more related to today's society; make it more related to the every day lives of young people so that they can see some practicality in obtaining an education. Secondly, we have to create jobs so that they see a future. If there were jobs in this Province today, there would not be nearly as many people dropping out of school. If they saw an opportunity for employment, many of them would be in school. Mr.

Speaker, so therefore we certainly No. 31 R1638

educational the fact drop out need to improve our system today based on that we have the highest rate in all of Canada. Another startling statistic is the fact that we have the highest illiteracy rate in all of Canada. I would hope the Provincial College System would do something about that. I would hope they would provide · courses out in the regions . where they are located to improve the literacy rate of our population. That is something that the Provincial College System can do. Yes , Mr. Speaker, our educa tiona! system in this Province is in a bad situation.

The educational system in this Province today is in need of major improvements from primary right on through to the post-secondary institutions. We need improvement in the curriculum, improvement in the courses that are offered in each institution, and the courses have to be related to today • s society. They have got to be related to the demands of today's society. Let me just quote for bon. gentlemen something . that I came across just very recently. I do not have the date. I think it is The Globe and Mail or it is The Financial Post, one or the other. It. is just within the past couple of weeks.

The bold letters here say: REMEDY FOR EDUCATIOIJ PRICES ELUDES SOCIETY. "The Canadian Manufacturing Association, in a new strategy paper on higher education, has set out clearly and vigorously one side of the debate that so far has shown little promise of resolving Canada • s crisis in education." So, this is the Canadian Manufacturing Association and it talks about the crisis in L1639 April 29, 1987 Vol XL education in Canada. It says this: "That there is a crisis at all levels, from primary schools to post-graduate training, is hardly in doubt.

The signs are evident in public outcrys against the failures of the system, in an alarming high dropout rate, in the disillusionment of unemployed or under-employed young people, in increasingly reluctant government support for education, and in the complaints of such groups as the Canadian Manufacturing Association that the schools are not turning out graduates equipped to cope with· a swiftly changing world." Mr. Speaker, that is an indictment on the educational system of Canada. Now, I say this: If the Canadian system, as a whole, can be condemned, what is the situation like in this Province?

The article, by Ronald Anderson, goes on to quote other organizations talking about the weaknesses in education in Canada. They point out, in the main, that our curriculum in all of these institutions is not geared to the demands of today. It is outdated and Canada is behind other industrial nations in terms of meeting the educational needs of its people. Because of that, we are not going to be able to take advantage of the technological changes that are happening now and which will happen in the future unless we get down to brass tacks. Just let me quote one other statement here.

It says: "The CMA finds repetition inherent in the structure of Canadian universities. They all echo the pattern of a large, comprehensive, undergraduate programme and a small graduate school. The brief No. 31 R1639

argues that revitalization of the universities requires them to drop low yield, costly baggage from the past and it urges them to establish a better balance between broad education and skills requirement ... Mr. Speaker, that is the key, I" think, today, that we have got to decide where we are going in education; we have · got to decide what it is we wan~; we have got to decide what the purposes of education are and where we want our young people to go. There has to be an emphasis on the skills requirement. Too often in the past we have just concentrated on the acquiring of broad knowledge.

I am sure in the resolution when the bon. gentleman says .. that the Provincial College System provide appropriate courses · to meet the social and economic needs of the regions concerned," I would hope that is what he was talking about. He was talking about a balance between the acquisition of broad knowledge, a traditional education, a balance between it and skills requirement so -that we can train our students to take

part in ·the technological development of the future. Mr. Speaker, there is no question that the need is there.

The need is there to change the school curriculum, as the bon. gentleman has indicated here, and the need is there to certainly ensure that the Provincial College System that is going to be spread throughout Newfoundland, that that system will be a system that will enhance the educational and employment opportunities of young people in those areas, in the regions in which they will be located; that the education they get will be a practical one, that it will be a L1640 April 29, 1987 Vol XL utilitarian one, that it will be an education that they will want to get, that they will want to acquire, an education in which they will see a value.

Not only a value of education for itself, but a value that will help them to live better in this world; to live to their full potential and that will help them to acquire employment. I think that has to be the key. I think, again, that we have lost some of the value or emphasis that we used to place on education back some fifteen years ago when we emphasized education to the! extent that it was almost a cliche to say that it is not that we can afford to spend all the money we are spending on education now, we cannot afford not to do so. It seems as though we have lost that emphasis today.

We are talking about costs all the time. Can we afford this? Can we afford to have these provincial college systems? Can we afford to beef up our university? Can we afford to bring in more programmes? I think, Mr. Speaker, that it is more accurate today than it has ever been. I would say that we cannot afford not to do it. We must spend more money on education so that we can take advantage of the technological changes that are going on around us. If not, we are going to be left behind. Mr.

Speaker, we have to spend more money to see that the youth of Newfoundland are properly trained to live happy and productive adult lives. That is what education is all about. I believe that we have been missing the boat. ~~e have been falling behind in curriculum development, we have been falling behind in terms of having programmes that are geared to the needs of future society. Our No. 31 R1640

education has become obsolete. It is not the kind of education that we should be preparing our young people for for today. Mr. Speaker, I can support this resolution.

I would certainly hope that what the member had in mind was the improvement of school curriculum and making an educational system where young people can go and receive an education that is practical from an educational point of view for the sake of education, but one also that will be practical and utili tar ian in terms of helping them ·prepare themselves for future adult life; that will prepare them to be able to take advantage of what opportunities there are in the job market; and will train them to be able to take whatever highly skilled, technological jobs available in this land and in the nation as a whole.

I think that is where we have to focus our attention to make sure that we have the educational system in place for our young people so that they can take advantage of the opportunities that are available to them and will continually be available to them as we advance in the world today, and as the world progresses, and as Canada progresses, that our young people in this Province will be able to advance and progress with the rest of the world.

So I certainly hope that these resolutions will not go unheeded, that indeed government will ensure that what the bon. gentleman perceives the objectives of these resolutions to be will indeed be realized, that government will indeed capitalize on the suggestion made by the member from St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter). MR. SPEAKER: Ll641 April 29, 1987 Vol XL Order, please! The hon. member's time is up. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I just want to conclude by simply saying that I hope they just do not become resolutions on paper, that they are never heard of again.

I would hope that as a result of this resolution we will indeed see major changes in the school curriculum, and that the provincial college system will become a system that our young people, all the people of this Province will be proud that we have these provincial college systems throughout Newfoundland and that they, indeed, will become institutions where young people can go to become educated and trained to live lives of which they will be proud, to become productive citizens, and become the kind of people we want our society to have, happy and productive citizens of Newfoundland. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. · MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure and an honour for all bon. members to rise to support this particular resolution put forward by the member for St. John's North. No wher.e in this country, I do not think, are people represented in their Houses of Assembly by more No. 31 Rl641

people who have been in the education field as a former profession before entering politics. I think most members who are in that category have taught exclusively in the elementary and the high school system, with the exception of our colleague from Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) who spent most of his career, as I understand it, in the post-secondary area, in the community college system. But I think it is, as was indicated earlier, a very timely resolution for a number of reasons. And it is not something that just came out of no where, it is a plan that has been in place for a considerable time.

This particular resolution deals with the upcoming changes in the post-secondary system, in the community college system. Those of us who have been fortunate enough to be in contact with the Bay St. George Community College system over the number of years· it has been in existence, not only from an educational perspective but, as its name indicates, from a community perspective, and the programmes and the extension programmes that it has been offering to the people who not only attend the institution but who are associated with the college in the various communities around the Bay St.

George Community College, have seen what a benefit that kind of an education system can mean. Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is any question that the whole principle of community colleges was based on that initial pilot project,: if you will, or that initial development of the Bay St. George Community College on the Western part of the Province. Ll642 April 29, 1987 Vol XL That example has proved so successful that it has formed the basis of the whole province-wide community college system.

This is a sort of particular concern of mine, but I just; wanted to make one point here as it relates to what is happening to the educational system, where we are attempting through this new revised process in post-secondary education to begin to bring the educational programmes, the educational opportunities with all their benefits not only for young people but for people in the community who want to c:ontinue their studies and to advanc:e their learning programmes and, at the same time, advance their ability for economic benefit and for personal fulfillment, not only to enclose them in an institution but also to bring them to the various communities through extension programmes, through opportunities for learning in all the various small communities.

It is unfortunate, I think, Mr. Speaker, that at the same time we are doing this, in the whole education system, and the small schools study will identify this, we are, in the adult area and in the post-secondary are, bringing education back into the small rural communi ties. Unfortunately, some of these rural communities are, at the same time, losing their ability to offer elementary, primary, and high school programmes in their own community and have to transport their children out to larger centers.

So I think it might be worthwhile noting that while we are doing it in the post-secondary programme we may want to have a hard and fast look, as people generally, at what is happening to our educational system with moving these children No. 31 R1642

from the small rural schools and bringing them into larger centers, when we are doing just the reverse, if you will, with the post-secondary programme as it relates to providing educational opportunities. The district which I represent, Mr. Speaker, has some thirty-four communities.

The kind of programme that is being offered and will encompass that whole district as it relates to the community college system will be very, very beneficial to people who not only have the opportunity to go and take advantage of the· structures and the buildings where the new technologies will physically be in place, but for the hundreds of people who will be able to take advantage of educational opportunities right in their own home and their own community through extension programmes and various other activities that will be sponsored by the community college system.

There is no question that the Royal Commission on Employment and Unemployment was very, very correct in identifying the necessity and the need for a better educated population.

I think with better education comes a greater awareness of your potential, of your opportunities, and of the kinds of things you can become involved in, the kinds of economic activity for your own personal well-being and for the well-being of your community: just the sheer magnitude of those opportunities that can become available to you through this sort of an educational process that otherwise would be out there but certainly you would not have the mechanisms and the tools and the levers to be able to access those kinds of economic opportunities.

Ll643 April 29, 1987 Vol XL And it will not only educate people in certain parts of the Province and isolate specialties, it will provide an opportunity right throughout the Province, on the Island and in Labrador, to develop these opportunities and these educational opportunities within the communities in which the people are now residing and hopefully, through this expanded programme, also expand their ability to be able to make an economically viable life for themselves within their particular area.

It is not, as I indicated, just isolated to the community college system that is being envisaged and is being put in place through advisory committees which are now in place, through advisory boards which were · put in place in September, and through the development of new programmes in the community and local area, I think the whole emphasis of this administration has been towards providing those kinds of educational opportunities to people to deal with changing technologies, and the one that is, of course, foremost in our minds as Newfoundlanders has been as it relates to the offshore oil industry.

At the same time, Mr. Speaker, we have not forgotten the fact that this Province was based on a fishery, on a marine environment, on marine activities, and hand in hand with educational opportunities and development in earth resource centers and other opportunities, and training opportunities in working with private industry and companies dealing with the offshore, we have also recognized our vital role in the marine sec tor through the new college of Fisheries and Marine No. 31 R1643

Technology and those sorts of areas. The millions of dollars that are being spent, dollars that are not easy to come by by any government in Canada at the present time, some of them cost-shared programmes, some of them funded entirely by the Province, some of them funded between the Province, the federal government and private industry, those kinds of opportunities require vast sums of . money, money not easily, as I indicated, come by in this day and age but certainly money that will be well spent.

It will be money that will be td our credit as we sit in this Legislature and approve funding for educational opportunities in the secondary school system, and the elementary and primary school system. The money that we vote and the kinds of programmes that are enunciated in this particular resolution, these kinds of programmes, I think, will be a credit to us all.

The changes that have occurred in the secondary school system with the addition of the Grade XII programme, a four year high school programme, the changes in the post secondary system that are beginning in this budget primarily and will continue on into future budgets, changes that will inevitably have to occur in the primary and elementary school system: Capital improvements in school facilities and programmes; additional teacher training, all these things, Mr.

Speaker, will be to our benefit because we will be able to look back on our term of office in the Legislature as having had the opportunity to be involved in many, many changes, changes that have been overdue for a long period of time. We will see, Mr. Speaker, over the next number of days and weeks that L1644 April 29, 1987 Vol XL this is not just a programme that has been put in place just for the sake of saying it; you will see concrete examples of the kinds of changes in physical structure, in administrative restructuring that will put into practical terms, I think, the intent of this particular resolution.

It is indeed a credit to us all that we have an opportunity to support this kind of a resolution so the people of the Province will see just ··- what their elected representatives are doing in the Legislature. I think it is not only a credit to all of us but primarily a credit to the member for St. John's North who obviously has a background and an interest in education from a professional perspective as well as a practical perspective.

I think it is to his credit : that this particular resolution was put forward, and it is a pleasure for me to stand and support the resolution and indicate to the Legislature and to the people of the Province that I think that this kind of an initiative, this kind of an approach is one that, as I said, is not just newly developed, it is one that has been well planned out, well thought out.

The change in the educational departmental structure at the government level in separating the secondary and primary and elementary systems from the post-secondary system was a significant step, as \>Jras the commitment to use a large and significant portion of the offshore development fund for educational and training purposes: the development of new post-secondary institutions, institutions of excellence at the Marine and Fisheries Institute, the changes to the Cabot Institute, the Earth Science Building at Memorial University, the changes in the post-secondary No . 31 R1644

system, to make the conununity college system province-wide as opposed to just being in one part of the Province. And. I think this resolution will emphasize and highlight again the direction that this administration has been taking with regard to this very important issue of making sure that the children of the Province are trained to be able to meet the new changes, employment changes and . employment opportunities, that will be created for them in the future. In closing, Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to say again that I think we should perhaps begin - I do not mean we as a government, but we as citizens of the Province to have a real hard look at taking what seems to be a new idea in post-secondary of bringing educational opportunities to the conununi ties and to the people rather than having them travel vast distances.

If we cannot just step back for a minute and have a look at what we are doing to the five and six year old children in some of the rural areas - where we are transporting them over vast distances to take them out of their community where they feel comfortable - where I think with modifications a very adequate educational opportunity could be provided to them rather than moving them to much larger centers. I think if I were to go on with this particular resolution and make a point, then that would be it.

I would certainly like to go on record as supporting this resolution and I think compliment, if compliments to yourself are in order, this adminstration on the efforts it has made over the past number of years with regard to making the necessary structural changes not only in the secondary L1645 April 29, 1987 Vol XL system but now in the post-secondary system. I would like to go on record as supporting this resolution, Mr. Speaker. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Tharik you, Mr. Speaker. I have been elected three times, Mr.

Speaker, and it is always an honour for me to speak when you are in the Chair because I know I have your undivided attention. It is really a privilege, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, with regard to the resolution brought in by the member for St. John's North,

WHEREAS the Royal Conunission on Employment and Unemployment emphasizes the importance of the Educational System in Economic Development; and Government has announced for a Provincial College to be initiated by 1987;

WHEREAS plans System September THEREFORE BE IT Government be implement changes curriculum; and RESOLVED that encouraged to in the school BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Provincial College System provide appropriate courses to meet the social and economic needs of the regions concerned, basically we see again a government which in many ways puts the cart before the horse instead of the other way around. We have seen changes take place in our No. 31 R1645

educational system with the introduction of Grade Xll, which keeps our students in school for an extra year to help them mature. Also, of course, keeping them off the unemployment roles was another reason for bringing it in. Now we see the reorganization of junior high, and I imagine in two or three years from now we will see the reorganization of the elementary and the primary school system instead of doing it the · other way around. We all know, Mr. Speaker, the ne~d for education in our Province. In a society which educates its people, economic benefits are tied into the system of education.

We also know the conditions of our schools, junior high as well as the high schools, the university, the community colleges and the trade schools, and the condition of the equipment used in the various courses. This government has been in power for seventeen years and after that period of time they are basically saying it is time to look at the equipment, look at the · courses and look at the our vocational schools, now called Provincial Colleges, with a view to updating them. Our welding techniques are old and outdated.

We have heavy duty equipment in Goose Bay and in other areas of our Province which is not working, which is outdated. When we brought in the reorganization of the high school I spoke in this Assembly and said that I agreed with the idea of an extra year of school not from the point of view of keeping students in school to keep them off unemployment for another year but to broaden the educational base so that they would have a greater opportunity of getting through the three or four years at a college Ll646 April 29, 1987 Vol XL or at a university.

I said at that time that we should have a system like they have in Quebec, which is called • a Ceget s:ystem' . What you have in that system is what they are now coming up with here, a system of provincial colleges - in QUebec they are called 'Ceget'. In order to go to university, you must do your first and second year at those provincial colleges after which you go on to the Laval University, or · McGill, or Concordi.a, or Bishop's, or whatever other university there is in Quebec.

The reason why I said it should be patterned after Quebec is that Grade Xll should have been in these vocational schools, which are now called provincial colleges. They should have had the Grade XII there, they should have had first year university there, and the provincial college system should have been upgraded so that courses applicable to industry could be taught, whether it be mining, whether it be the aircraft industry, I am thinking of Gander, whether it be the fishing industry, whether it be the forest industry, and students f~om the Marystown area, for example, get into ship building courses.

But what happened wa.s the provincial government did not take my advice, they went ahead and put Grade XII into the high schools. And one of the things that has happened since then is that where you all-grade schools, from primary to Grade XII, students who are in Grade XII still have to walk down on the right side of the stairs and up on the left, they still have to follow the same rules of that school as the child who is in Kindergarten, or Grade I, or Grade II. No. 31 Rl646

MR. J. CARTER: Do you mean to say they go up and down the stairs? MR. HISCOCK: Yes, they do. I would say that as a kid the member for St. John • s North probably slid down the bannisters a few times. The point I am making, Mr. Speaker, is that we have the Grade XII students in our. high school system and they are not becoming any more mature. They are not being given any more responsibility than they had when they , were in Grade XI. We have seen the courses just divided up.

If we had had them in the provincial college system we would have, I would predict, a lot more people who would have gone on to university, because they would have gotten to know people from all around the various areas where those colleges are located, and they would have been instilled with learning by their friends. Let us take a look at St. Anthony. St. Anthony could look after all the Northern Peninsula.

By having students who are seventeen and eighteen years old in Grade XII they would be more likely to come back and try a first year university course in those schools because of friendships they had had, and because of the maturity they acquired while they were there. But we have Grade XII in the high schools and as a result we still have a great drop-out rate. Because of the lack of gymnasiums and good physics, science and mathemat.i,cs teachers, they are being del>rived of the opportunity of getting into the provincial college system, or into the university system.

Now, we think L1647 April 29, 1987 Vol XL that by getting into decentralization we will take first year university and put it into the college system and by doing that we will get more people into first year university and into these colleges. If we had Grade XII in there, we would have a better foundation. Also, by having the two of them together they would have been a moving force and an economic base for a lot of communities like Lewisporte.

If you had the Grade XII students from all around that area come into Lewisporte, and you had all the first year university students as well, you would have a small, viable industry by way of education. Post-secondary education generally puts into the st. John's economy $100 million or more a year, that includes the Fisheries Institute, the university, the marine lab, the Cabot Institute and a lot of the private schools.

By having professors there - I call them professors - or instructors, at the provincial colleges for Grade XII and first Year University, you would be able to attract dentists into the area and you would be able to attract doctors into the area. You would also be able to attract social workers and better teachers.

One criticism that many professional people make when they go out into remote areas is that they do not have the intellectual and social contact they need, whether they go into a community like Lewisporte, which has a certain population and limited things to offer, or whether they go to areas like Placentia or Bonavista. As I have said before, I think we would have had a much better system if we had used the Quebec No. 31 Rl647

mould rather than going one step at a time and ending up trying to improve it. We brought in Grade X11, now we are reorganizing the vocational schools, we are taking first year university and putting it in the community colleges, and we are talking about re-organizing junior high. As I said, eventually we will· be re-organizing elementary. primary and What else have we seen with education in this Province of late? We have seen a report come out on small schools.

How can. we get into talking about provincial colleges when we have schools which do not have gyms, which do not even have water and sewer, which do not have resource centres and do not have libraries? Another report that came out was on the high drop-out rate. Over 2000 people dropped out of school last year. Not out of vocational, not out of technical college, not out of the university or the fisheries college, but 2000 dropped out of the high school system. Why? Lack of interest.

We also had a report come out that ha to do with school boundaries in this Province and the idea of more consolidation of school boards. We also had the report on Unemployment and Employment that again emphasized the main reason we suffer from high unemployment in this Province is because of the economic base, and that is tied into the educational system. We also know that we have children being bused great distances over roads early in the. morning. It is dark when some of them go to school and it is darks when they get back home; they cannot take

part in extra-curricular activities. L1648 April 29, 1987 Vol XL Also, a good many of these community colleges are located, believe it or not, in towns which are fully serviced by water and sewer but are getting new subdivisions and some of the structure of their present water and sewer system is breaking down. And while government is trying to get a provincial college system together in various parts of the Province, and they are basically saying to the towns at the same time, sorry, we cannot help you get with your new subdivisions, we cannot help you repair your old outdated water and sewer systems.

It is not our responsibility. We gave you the initial funding, it is no,.., up to you to raise your taxes and look after your water and sewer problems. That is the message I got from the Minister of Municipal Affairs today. He was saylng that all of St.

John's, Gander, Stephenville, Grand Falls, Corner Brook, Bonavista, Grand Bank, Port aux Basques, Buchans, ~Jindsor, Fogo and Twillingate, all the older towns around our Province that have had water and se:wer for a number of years, sorry, do not come back to us anymore, whether this year, next year, the year after, or ten years from now, it is up to you now to look after the system that you have, it is up to you to raise your taxes~. The provincial government is putting the responsibility for water and sewer back with the municipalities.

And what do they do when they put that responsibility back on the municipalities? They stated at one point, if you raise your property tax, have it on a sliding scale and we will give you a higher percentage. That was going great for a. while. Then they cut back on that and the No. 31 R1648

City of St. John • s lost over $3 million, Gander lost money, Corner Brook lost money, as did the other towns. So the bottom line is, Mr. Speaker, not enough thought is being put into the reorganization of the educational system. It is now May and we are putting this new system into effect in September; hiring has not taken place and courses have not been identified. Also, all the necessary equipment is not in place. When we brought in Grade XII some schools went three and four months without courses - they had the courses, but they did not have the books from the printers.

Other schools are still waiting to start up courses because they have not received funding. How do they get the funding, Mr. Speaker, when they want computers or typewriters? They have walkathons. They collect bottles. They do almost anything. It is not coming from the provincial government. The provincial government said, 'Grade XII is going to do great things for you. We are going to have more courses.' In actual fact, Mr. Speaker, it has not. It has come to fruition in the larger areas, but in the smaller urban areas they are still waiting.

Because of declining enrollment and the cutback in teachers, Grade XII students are still being treated like the primary and other children in the school. But if they had had Grade XII in the provincial college system, then we would have had the buildings that were already being utilized ·, we would have had the classroom space, and we would have had a lot of the equipment. I would even go so far as to say that the professor who is going to be teaching first year university L1649 April 29, 1987 Vol XL would have been quite capable of teaching Grade XII. That is where it has fallen down again.

Grade XII fell down and we were going through the growing pains. I might add that while going through the growing pains quite a number of students fell by the wayside. With regard to the college system, we find that there will be new courses in welding and in food processing, and, Mr. Speaker, they are long overdue. It has been stated that the new college system should be related more to the regions concerned. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that our provincial college system is not going to become regionalized so much that the only concern is going to be job opportunities in those regions.

Because if job opportunity courses are going to be taught in Lewisporte, we know what the unemployment rate is out there. We have to have first-class provincial, national, and international standards taught at all our colleges. We will accept one thing and one thing only, and that is excellence. If our people are educated, they will want to stay here. God bless them! Let us hope we can give them clean drinking water, a safe ambulance system to get them to our hospitals, good doctors once they get there, and a good potential for jobs.

If we cannot do all that, then let us educate them well so that they can go to another part of Canada and get good jobs, etc. It is much better that they go away educated than have to go away as they did in the past, to take the pick and shovel jobs, labour jobs, and working in factories. I am glad to see the provincial No. 31 R1649

college system being reorganized, but again I think we are acting too fast. This idea of a reorganized college system is a good one in itself, but I am wondering if there will be qualified people available to teach there, whether the university will r.ave input into it, whether standards are going to be reorganized, and whether the university will have entrance exams after the first year. I am concerned about whether or not the courses are going to be upgraded, whether our instructors are going to be retrained, and whether the necessary equipment is going · to be there.

Those are the things that I am concerned about. When Grade XII was implemented, there were a lot of growing pains and a lot of people suffered because courses were not available when it came on stream.

With regard to the provincial college system I hope government has put a lot more thought into it, that we get the most qualified people and we get the best courses available, that the university does have a say about its standards, and that we are not just taking students out of first year university at Grenfell and Memorial and putting them into Lewisporte, Gander, Stephenville, Bell Island, and other areas in our Province, just for the sake of making the ministers look good or making the government look good. I hope we are doing it for a purely educational reason.

The bottom line is that students in Lewisporte and Stephenville, in all areas around our Province, Mr. Speaker, deserve one thing and one thing only. If you are going to set up that system, that system has to have same programme of excellence that the Cabot L1650 April 29, 1987 Vol XL Institute has and that the university has.

If we are going to add provincial colleges to our system and not have them mamned by properly trained people using the proper equipment, then I do not want to see in our society students from Lewisporte, Gander, Stephenville, Labrador Ci t:y, and Happy valley whose training is inferior to that of students in Grand Falls, in St. John's and other areas. So I hope the government does have some idea about its programme of excellence, about its instructors, and about the equipment. In closing, Mr. Speaker, I wish government well in imple!menting this.

I hope that the instructors are going to be looked after and will not be laid off like some teachers have been, that •>o~e will build a much better educ:ational foundation for our younger people, and that we will have a better Province as a result of that. I hope the member for the Le~.<lisporte area will address some of these concerns. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Lewisporte. MR. RUSSELL: Thank you very much, Mr. 8peaker. It is certainly a pleasure for me to rise in support of this resolution so ably presented by the member for St. John's !rorth.

It is indeed a timely rescllution, as my colleague for Granci Falls (Mr. Simms) has already inferred. Some months ago, the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power), and government generally I suppose, issued a kind of challenge to the people of Newfoundland to have No. 31 R1650

some input and make some suggestions, recommendations as to their thoughts and feelings to the changes or proposed changes or the concept of change in the post-secondary education field, particularly, in the vocational school system. A lot of the things which I shall refer to are references particularly to my own district and the central region of the Province. However, I am sure that they are not really that much different than the people's recommendations and thoughts and feelings from other areas of the Province, whether they be Conception Bay, the Great Northern Peninsula, Labrador, or wherever.

Some of the comments and statements made by the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) certainly bear some reference and some comment, and I share most of his feelings with regard to them. He mentioned, for example, the quality of courses, the quality of instructors, and that the quality of student coming out of - I think he used Lewisporte as an example, it could indeed be anywhere else in the Province - should be equally as high as the quality of student coming out of Memorial University, the Cabot Institute, the Fisher Institutue or the Fisheries College, and I completely agree with him. Mr.

Speaker, if we as a government or we as elected members of this Legislature fail to produce the quality of student that is needed to meet the challenges of the rest of this decade and into the next decade and the turn of the century, then I think we shall have failed the people who will be the members in the Legislature of tomorrow and the leaders in the L1651 April 29, 1987 Vol XL community at large. I understand, Mr.

Speaker, that considerable groundwork has already been done to prepare, if you will, for the implementation of some of these courses which will be implemented, hopefully this coming September, throughout various parts of the Province. I know, and I assume or suspect that other members know, that the Department of Career Development and Advanced Studies has held meetings with the various school boards, for example, around the Province to talk to them about teachers, teacher qualifications, the availability of teachers to teach, particularly Memorial University first year courses. I also understand, Mr.

Speaker, that the school boards have given their utmost co-operation, in most areas, to this. Sure there are some problems, practical problems in freeing up teachers, if you will, and whatever. I also understand, Mr. Speaker, that the teachers, the professors, if you will, who will be teaching the first year university courses will have to meet the same qualifications as if they were teaching at Memorial University, and I understand that nothing less than a Master's Degree in that particular discipline will be acceptable. I agree with that and, as the bon. the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock) has said, we have to produce the best quality student and that can only be accomplished by having the best quality and qualified professors or teachers to teach them. There will be growing pains, I suspect, as there was in the implementation of the new high No. 31 Rl651

school programme, and Grade XII particularly. I do not think there has been and perhaps ever will be a new programme implemented without growing pains. Hopefully, they will be very few. We shall all learn by the few mistakes - while I hope not in real terms - made in the implementation of these programmes. Mr. Speaker, there is something that kind of interests . me and amazes me to a certain extent.

I do not particularly think that the people of Newfoundland are mu~h different than other provinces · in this . regard, but I seemed to get the feeling when I was a teacher and since I became involved in political life, if you will, there is an unconscious and sometimes a conscious resistance to change as soon as anybody in a leadership role, whether it be the superintendent of a school board, the principal of the school or the mayor of a municipality, suggests changes of any great significance. You almost automatically get the question, why do we need change?

If it does not cause a problem, then do not bother with it. Mr. Speaker, I am convinced that our vocational school system, in some regards, has outlived its usefulness and that we have to adapt to new technological change. Mr. Speaker, I had the pleasure in 1986 of visiting Expo '86 at Vancouver, the theme of which was Transportation and Communications Technology. One of the little things that amazed me was the visit to the General Motors pavilion. There is a car they bad on display there, which they have the technology to put on the market this year, I suppose or certainly in the immediate future.

However, they are Ll652 April 29, 1987 Vol XL reluctant, and, in fact, they simply decided not to put it onto the market for another few years. The reason they are reluctant to do this is because of the engine and the mechanics of it, if you will, are so far advanced that there are not enough people in Canada to service it properly. To me, Kr. Speaker, therein lies a challenge, a challenge for the vocational school system, if you will. The technology from st.

John's to Vancouver is not now there to service that particular kind of a car and that is the kind of challenge that we have to meet if we are going to move ahead with the technological change ichat is facing us in coming years. Mr.

Speaker, a little nearer home, perhaps, in my district, I had the pleasure of presenting a :petition in this honourable House a few weeks ago from approximately 2, 500 to 3, 000 people, most of them in my district, but a lot of them from the adjacent district of Twillingate, wherein the parents and the voters requested that first year university courses be implemented at Lewisporte Community College campus in September of 1987. I was pleased to have the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) and the member for Gander (Mr. Baker) rise in their places and support this petition. The member for Gander, Mr.

Speaker, is equally sincere in wanting to get university courses at the Gander school, and it is practical that he should wish that to be so. Mr. Speaker, the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) mad'e some reference to the economic benefits to the area and to any area in the Province, I guess, but I am a little more concerned at the No. 31 Rl652

present time with my own district, Central Newfoundland in particular, the economic benefits that would accrue to the area with the implementation of not only first year Memorial courses, but other courses. Mr. Speaker, every day there are bus loads of students coming into Lewisporte, mostly from the district of Lewisporte and the immediate area around the town but, Mr. Speaker, New World Island and Twillingate are not really that far away. Certainly when one compares the cost to parents · of sending their son or daughter to St.

John's to go to some post-secondary institution and compare it to the cost of having that same son or daughter, who is now living in Lewisporte-Twillingate area, to go into Lewisporte, there has to be and certainly there will be a considerable saving. I think it would also be, Mr. Speaker, much easier for that particular student to make an adjustment, not only to the academic aspect of university courses, but to the social aspect as well. Mr. Speaker, most of us in this Legislature, or a lot of us, I should say, have been students at Memorial.

I venture to say that each and every one of us can remember our first week at Memorial. MR. WARREN: Orientation Week. MR. RUSSELL: Orientation Week. Mr. Speaker, I was never in St. John's in my life until I came here to go to university. I can assure you and I suspect that if other members had the opportunity, they would admit and talk about what a L1653 April 29, 1987 Vol .XL tremendous adjustment that took. Mr. Speaker, while it was all enjoyable and I guess we adjusted to it, there are students I suspect today, and my bon. friend from Bonavista North (Mr.

Lush) would certainly be aware that even students today when travel is much easier and education is much advanced since my first year at university in 1958-1959, but students today who are in one sense- . perhaps better adjusted, still find it quite difficult to make that giant adjustment from high school to university. As I said, the social adjustment will be easier' in my opinion' and the economic savings will be there. Mr. Speaker, the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) and the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) referred to the food technology course. Mr.

Speaker, there are many places around this Province outside the Marine Institute that could qualify and be very practical places to implement this course. In my own district, Mr. Speaker, in the town of Lewisporte there is a very well established secondary processing firm producing a very, very good product which could, perhaps, provide to students taking this course some very good, practical experience. As my bon. friend from Fogo alluded to some time ago, Notre Dame Bay Fisheries are into a number of very interesting things. MR. TULK: Was that not Northcott Ltd.? (inaudible) A. MR.

RUSSELL: What was known, perhaps, Northcott Ltd. business, no, that has not operation. The part facility that was No. 31 as the A. as such, been in of the Lewisporte Rl653

Wholesalers before they moved to their current premises is where Eastern Ocean Products is now operatit:lg from. Mr. Speaker, I was referring to the Notre Dame Bay Fisheries, who have a very, very excellent operation going and could provide again some practical knowledge and practical experience to students in that area. Mr. Speaker, there is going to be associated with the implementation of these courses a very high dollar value. Such, Mr. Speaker, that ' I am sure this government does not have the dollars to do it all in one year. However, we, as a government, Mr.

Speaker, must put into place a plan to phase in, if you will, these various Memorial University courses and welding courses. I seem to recall the member for Eagle River referring to welding. I think he was referring to some overlapping or maybe that there should not be any overlapping. If I remember what the hon. Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr.

Power) has indicated publicly, I think what what he said was that in five regions, I think it was, of the Province, somewhere in one of the the community college campuses in each region there would be what he referred to as a center of excellence for welding. I think that that is very practical and a very, very good suggestion. Mr.

Speaker, in concluding, one of the things, I think, that we all have to realize and appreciate about this new reorganization of the vocational school system or the post-secondary system is that there will be some new jobs, good jobs, lasting jobs, reasonably L1654 April 29, 1987 Vol XL high paying jobs, created. There will be indirect spinoffs, if you will, from the implementat:ion of these progranunes if you have new professors, new instructors in welding or whatever the course might be, food technology, new students coming into a center by bus, by their own parents driving them, by their own vehicles.

If they have to stay at a boarding house, they have to travel back and forth, they have to buy gasoline, they have to hav1e food, they have to have perhaps a little more clothing than they may perhaps normally have, and there are numerous indirect benefits which will create some permanent, as well as perhaps some seasonal, if you will, academically seasonal, jobs. So, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to support this resolution. I think while there will be growing pains, it is certainly a long overdue step but one in which we have to meet the challenge and I am sure that we shall meet the challenge.

I compliment the member for st. John's North for bringing in this resolution. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, quite frankly, I am glad to have the resoluticm here because it gives me a chance to take a few whacks at this government across the way for incompetence, maladministration and so on with respect to implementing the kinds of things that are called for in this resolution. No. 31 R1654

It is something that I do reluctantly because, quite frankly, the reorganization of the post secondary education system, which the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) indicated that I had worked in for about fifteen years, is something that I was quite in favour of when the White Paper came out last, I think, August or September, indicating the direction in which the government wished to . move .. Quite frankly, the idea of setting up more community colleges similar to the one that I worked in I thought was a wonderful idea.

It is particularly lamentable to sit here approximately seven or eight months later and find out that there has been almost a total disaster in the way in which the plans themselves have been implemented. One of the examples that really makes me cry is the situation with regard to first year university programmes. When it was announced last August or September, the indication was that we would see a number of first year university programmes offered in remote locations. By remote I mean not in Corner Brook or St. John's but in places like Lewisporte, Labrador City, Stephenville, Marystown and places like that.

Quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, I was pleased to see that because in my district for about ten or twelve years we had a first year university programme which was terminated in 1982 or 1983 as a result of a major down turn in the iron ore industry. We have a tangible experience with this kind of education offered in a location like ours and we knew the value of it.

It had saved virtually millions of dollars for the parents and students in Labrador Ll655 April 29, 1987 Vol XL West who were able to avail themselves of a first year university programme, a very high quality one, and therefore cut down the very high cost of sending students out to either Memorial University or other Atlantic Province universities. So it was with a considerable amount of anticipation that I felt we would have this September a number of first year university programmes offered across the Province. But what has come to pass?

As of this date, and we are talking now of April 29, virtually into the month of Kay, there is not one single first year university programme announced anywhere in the Province, not one. Mr. Speaker, I hate to say it, but most students who are in high school now a.re in a tremendous quandry about what to do. Many of them have applied to university and have been accepted at place like the St. John • s campus of Memorial University or Corner Brook, or other places. Others are anticipating the first year university programmes to be offered in their area. They are waiting for the announcement.

They are waiting to know when they can start and when they can apply for it yet we hear nothing, absolutely nothing, from government. I would have expected, if they had done the job reasonably well, that in January or February they would have said they were going to be offered in Lewisporte, in Labrador City, in Stephenville, in Marystown, in Clarenville and wherever they were going to be offered, but we have heard absolutely nothing. Why is this? Quite frankly, it is difficult to figure out why. One of the things No. 31 R1655

that is perhaps an indication of it is in the Order Paper in front of me right now. In reading down I can see nothing about the legislation that we will require to establish the community colleges, which indicates to me that somewhere in the Cabinet or in the Committees of the Cabinet this legislation has been either bogged down or is slowly wending its way through the system. We may actually be in a situation where next September we many not have legislation through, although I hope that somebody will start speeding up in that area. That' is probably an indication.

By poking around in the system, by asking questions that I was perhaps not meant to ask and getting answers that were perhaps not meant to be delivered, I have also been able to establish from the department of community development, or - hold on now, the department of education level two, as was so ably put by my Liberal colleagues - the Department of Career Development and Advanced