April 22, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 905 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Friday, April 22, 1977 10:00 a.m. [The House met at 10 a.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 237

An Act to Amend The Temporary Anti-Inflation Measures Act MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill No. 237,

An Act to Amend The Temporary Anti- Inflation Measures Act. Very briefly, the purpose of this act would be to apply the AIB per unit profit guidelines to all utilities in the province of Alberta. [Leave granted; Bill 237 read a first time] head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to intro­ duce to you, and through you to the members of this Assembly, 50 students from Victoria Composite High School. They are accompanied by their teacher Mr. Scragg. They are seated in the public gallery, and I would ask that they stand and be acknowledged by the Assembly. MR. McCRAE: Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to introduce to the Assembly this morning 75 members of the grades 8 and 9 classes in Senator Patrick Burns school in Calgary Foothills constituency. Mr. Speaker, the students journeyed here last even­ ing. They put on a concert in one of the areas and, I'm sure, added to the cultural life of Edmonton. Today, after question period, they'll visit the museum, and journey back to Calgary this evening. They are accompanied by their band teacher Mrs. Shirley Bur- rill, their principal Mr. Victor Remple, teacher Mr. Calvin Auvigne, and four parents: Mr. and Mrs. Green, Mrs. Heal, and Mrs. Olajos.

They're in both galleries, and I'd ask that they stand and enjoy the greeting of the House. head: MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Department of the Attorney General MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise members of the Legislative Assembly that, pursuant to my recommendation, the Lieutenant Governor in Council has today, under The Public Inquiries Act, ordered a judicial inquiry into the affairs and activities relating to Royal American Shows.

Members of the Legislative Assembly will recall that in July 1975, in the course of an investigation into the activities of Royal American Shows, certain documents and other items were seized, and thereafter a number of charges were laid alleging fraud, conspiracy to defraud, bribery, and corruption. For reasons I have already made public, the Crown is now unable to proceed with certain of those prose­ cutions. I have also earlier announced that we were conducting certain other investigations in this matter. Mr.

Speaker, I believe it is fundamental to the proper administration of justice that the public be informed of the results of investigations into alleged criminal activity within the province. Normally the public can be so informed either by my advising that a complete investigation has been conducted and there is not evidence which justifies the laying of charges or, alternatively, the public is informed as a result of criminal prosecutions or in some cases civil proceed­ ings flowing from such investigations.

The ordinary civil or criminal process in these unusual circumstances does not, however, permit the public to be informed. The only alternative to ade­ quately respond in these circumstances is a judicial inquiry. Mr. Speaker, I am disturbed by the substantial and growing speculation, rumor, and anxiety concerning the extent of unlawful conduct which may have occurred in the activities and affairs of Royal Ameri­ can Shows, the circumstances surrounding the inves­ tigations and charges arising out of this matter, and the reasons for the Crown not proceeding with these charges.

For these reasons, and after careful assessment and deliberation, I have concluded that an inquiry must be employed to inform the public as to what has occurred and to remove such speculation, rumor, and anxiety. I would remind all hon. members that the administration of justice in Alberta is a serious pro­ ceeding by which a people in earnest discovers the facts and the truth for the sake of public safety and confidence. Accordingly I decided it was in the public interest to have this entire matter be the subject of an inquiry, and so recommended to the Lieutenant Gov­ ernor in Council.

The order in council establishing the inquiry appoints the Honourable Mr.

Justice Herbert Laycraft of the Supreme Court of Alberta as a commissioner to inquire into and report upon the following matters: (1) the affairs and activities in the province of Alberta of Royal American Shows Inc., its agents, servants, employees, and asso­ ciates, and in particular whether any person committed any unlawful act in connection with the affairs and activities of Royal American Shows Inc., its agents, servants, employees, and associates; (2) whether any person committed any unlaw­ ful act in connection with any and all inves­ tigations or proceedings relating to the af­ fairs and activities of Royal American Shows Inc., its agents, servants, employees, and associates, and any and all matters aris­ ing out of or touching upon those investiga­ tions or proceedings; (3) such other matters as may be considered relevant by the commissioner to ensure a full and fair inquiry to enable him to make his report, except that if in the opinion of

906 ALBERTA HANSARD April 22, 1977 the commissioner any matters arising in the inquiry will be dealt with in any other pro­ ceeding and the inquiry by the commission­ er would interfere with, prejudice, or dupl­ icate that proceeding, in his discretion he need not inquire into such matters but may, if he considers it advisable, report on any aspect of such proceeding. Mr. Speaker, one of the risks inherent in any procedure which is effective for arriving at the truth is that innocent persons are caught up in the process and occasionally suffer personal hurt.

The risk can and should be minimized, as has been stated in this Assembly on several occasions. The Royal Commis­ sion on Tribunals of Inquiry, referred to as the Salmon commission, proposed to minimize this risk in setting out six cardinal principles. I will be inviting Mr. Justice Laycraft to consider the application of these principles in conducting this inquiry.

The six principles deal generally with the circum­ stances under which a person becomes involved in the inquiry, the opportunity to be represented by counsel and to have reasonable legal expenses paid, the opportunity of having and of testing cross- examination, and the opportunity of calling material witnesses. Additional safeguards which may be exercised to prevent the unnecessary involvement of persons in this inquiry are set out in the Salmon report and will no doubt receive the consideration of Mr. Justice Laycraft. With respect to the matter of Regina v.

Anderson, in view of this announcement today I feel it would be appropriate and reasonable to abandon this prosecu­ tion. This can only be achieved by the Crown offering no evidence and having the charges dismissed as soon as practicable. Mr. Anderson will not be charged further with those offences, and I will so instruct the special prosecutor. Mr. Speaker, the work of the inquiry will commence immediately, but I do not expect the commission will begin formal sittings until late in May.

No doubt many persons will be called upon to assist in these proceedings, and I wish to thank them for their con­ tribution to the administration of justice in Alberta. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, the official opposition wel­ comes the announcement made by the Attorney General this morning. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Anti-inflation Program MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct the first question to the Minister of Federal and Intergovern­ mental Affairs.

Could the minister indicate to the Assembly at what stage discussions are between the province and the federal government with regard to the decontrol period as far as the federal anti- inflation program is concerned? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, a meeting of provincial and federal government officials is taking place very shortly to discuss preliminary matters relating to a meeting of ministers which has been arranged for some time during the next 10 days, at which Mr. Macdonald, I understand, will be presenting some further details as to his approaches and suggestions regarding decontrol and postcontrol. MR.

CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. What types of discussions will the Alberta government be involved in with municipal governments and other groups affected by the prov­ ince's portion of the anti-inflation program? What kinds of discussions will there be between the prov­ ince and agencies within the province? MR. HYNDMAN: Well, of course the entities within the definition of the provincial public sector include those employed by municipalities. Therefore the leg­ islation would cover them until the end of this year.

However, I would welcome any suggestions munici­ palities might have in respect of the matter and method of decontrol over the course of the months ahead. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, to the minister. Is there any formal mechanism the government has or intends to set up to facilitate that kind of discussion between the province and municipalities? MR. HYNDMAN: No formal mechanism, Mr. Speaker. I think we would rely on the traditional initiative of the municipalities. If they wish to make submissions, we welcome them and wish to hear them as soon as possible. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary question to the minister. Is the province going to set up any formal mechanism for business, the agricul­ tural community, and labor to become involved in the discussion of the decontrol period as far as Alberta is concerned? Or does the province take the position that basically that's a matter of discussion between those and other groups and the federal government? MR. HYNDMAN: Well, no formal mechanism or ar­ rangements are contemplated at this time, Mr. Speaker. However, there has been, and I imagine there will continue to be, ongoing discussions among those various groups.

Of course, as previously an­ nounced, the government has budgetary guidelines within which those affected will operate. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, one last supplementary question to the minister. Following the meeting with Mr. Macdonald which the hon. minister alluded to earlier, is it then the intention of the government of Alberta to develop some sort of position paper or game plan that will be available for discussion in Alberta? MR. HYNDMAN: I'm not exactly certain, Mr. Speaker, of the direct intent of the question.

But with respect to any game plan, a great deal will depend on what definitive information we receive from Mr. Macdonald or from federal officials at the meeting in early May. The whole question of decontrol and postcontrol will depend to a degree on the federal approach and the federal legislation, insofar as we are, and have been over the course of months, part of a national effort to fight the inflation psychology. We would wish to continue to be part of that, insofar as the

April 22, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 907 interests of Albertans are not adversely affected over the course of the decontrol period. Forest Fire Hazard DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address my ques­ tion to the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources, or if this is not in his department it can be farmed out. In light of the fact we've had a very dry winter and spring, how serious is the forest fire hazard in the province? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I've been advised by members of the forestry

section of the Department of Energy and Natural Resources that forest fire hazards in the province are very high and that all reasonable precautions are being taken. However, it's something we'll have to continue to be alert to on virtually a day-to-day basis. DR. BUCK: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is the min­ ister in a position to indicate which areas are most potentially hazardous? MR. GETTY: It's very difficult to say, other than I'd give him a broad feeling that the eastern slopes are in a particularly dry state. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, can the minister indicate if these areas are going to be out of bounds to campers in the near future? MR. GETTY: That may be required. However, we have not yet decided. As I said, Mr. Speaker, we will try to watch it on practically a week-to-week basis and try not to overreact and remove from Albertans' normal lifestyles some of the enjoyment they get from travelling in those areas. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary. Is the situation so serious that the Premier's King Air and Queen Air may have to be pressed into service? Packing Plant — Calgary MR. KUSHNER: Mr.

Speaker, I want to direct my question to the Minister of Agriculture. It's a follow- up from yesterday. I wonder if the minister has been informed that Calgary packers hog operation will be closing its doors by the end of this month. MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I've been informed with regard to a phasing out of Canada Packers hog killing operations in Calgary. MR. KUSHNER: A supplementary question. Would the minister advise this Assembly if the firm has given any reason? MR. MOORE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I did have discus­ sions with the general manager of Canada Packers.

As a matter of fact, it's my understanding that they will be expanding their hog killing operations in Edmonton. In addition to that, Mr. Speaker, they will be expanding their beef killing operations in Calgary by the addition of a boxed beef line and some very substantial capital investment in that city as well as Edmonton. MR. KUSHNER: Supplementary question. I wonder if the minister could inform this Assembly if this in fact means about 80 employees will be laid off in that plant in Calgary. MR. MOORE: Mr.

Speaker, very briefly, it's my under­ standing that a number of the employees have been offered the opportunity to move to Edmonton and work in the expanded operations here. I understand from Canada Packers that there's room in their expanded operations in Calgary for those who do not. Dental Services MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Advanced Education.

Because of the severe shortage of dentists in rural Alberta, and in view of the fact that Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Nova Scotia, and Quebec permit dental hygienists to fill teeth and do other orthodontic work, is the government considering expanding the range of responsibility of dental hygienists in Alberta? DR. HOHOL: Mr. Speaker, our information is not so much that there is a shortage of dentists but that their concentration or location may not be as equal throughout the province as it might be.

The whole question of dental service is being looked at by sever­ al ministers, particularly the one responsible for it, my hon. colleague, the member responsible for commu­ nity services and community health and . . . DR. BUCK: I have trouble with that one too. DR. HOHOL: Yes. Community services and public health. [laughter] MR. TAYLOR: Supplementary question to the hon. minister of community services [laughter] Social Serv­ ices and Community Health. Is the expansion of the work of dental hygienists one of the items the hon. minister is looking at? MISS HUNLEY: Yes it is, Mr. Speaker.

We'll be meeting in the months or years ahead with the Dental Association to discuss that and, of course, the need for employees and practitioners in that area will then be the subject of discussion with Advanced Education and Manpower. MR. TAYLOR: A supplementary. Has the hon. minis­ ter had any discussion with the Alberta Dental Asso­ ciation? Has that association given any indication they would approve such a plan? MISS HUNLEY: We haven't gotten down to the speci­ fics of that particular matter. We do have ongoing meetings with the Dental Association, along with the other associations, Mr. Speaker.

We raised it at the last meeting as one of the areas we would like to discuss. There may be discussions at the officials' level, but I personally have not taken

part in any to the present time, other than a mention of some of the matters we wish to pursue with that particular association. MR. TAYLOR: One final supplementary to the hon. Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower who,

908 ALBERTA HANSARD April 22, 1977 I believe, is the chairman of the Western Canada Post-Secondary Co-ordinating Committee which I believe is meeting in Edmonton this fall. Is the matter of expanding the work of dental hygienists on the agenda of the WCPSCC? DR. HOHOL: Mr. Speaker, I'm glad I can answer this question all by myself and don't have to refer it to anybody. Yes, sir, it is, and it was at the previous meeting held about two months ago in Saskatchewan. Mental Patients' Records MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this ques­ tion to the hon.

Minister of Social Services and Community Health as well. It pertains to the Cana­ dian Mental Health Association submission on infor­ mation privacy in the mental health system. First of all, has the minister received this report and had an opportunity to review it? MISS HUNLEY: Yes I have, Mr. Speaker. I have not only received it, I have reviewed it. I have not yet had the opportunity to discuss it at length with officials in my department, but I have asked for initial input from the Mental Health Advisory Council. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister.

Has the government given any consideration to the suggestion by the Canadian Mental Health Association that a client must be in­ formed that personal information is being collected and that he has the right to consent or refuse consent to such collection? MISS HUNLEY: I have not discussed that issue with my colleagues. But I would like to draw to the atten­ tion of the hon. member that I don't know how practi­ tioners could possibly practise without collecting some information about the client they're attempting to serve. I think we have to keep that in mind when we're directing our attention to that issue. MR.

NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the hon. minister. Has the government given any consideration to amending The Mental Health Act to assure that information be used for the purpose for which it was collected, unless the patient's consent is obtained? MISS HUNLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to advise the hon. member, as I've done before, that the design of the computer records has been scrutinized very care­ fully, not only by my department but by the Mental Health Advisory Council which has discussed it at their meetings and has advised me they believe the system is sound.

I rely very heavily on those dedicat­ ed people who serve on that council. I have asked them if they would review the particular issue referred to in the Mental Health Association brief. I have not heard from them on that matter. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the hon. minister. Is the government giving any consideration to the recommendation that agencies, organizations, and institutions must advise the person in question of the fact that they are col­ lecting and retaining personal information?

It's a question of whether the person will be advised if such information is being collected. MISS HUNLEY: I would like to check that. I'm sure I can't guarantee that every practitioner who deals with ill people in this province will follow those spe­ cific instructions. I would expect most people know that if you go to a doctor for consultation, information is certainly kept on your file.

It would come as a great shock to me to find out that people were not under the impression that any doctor, whether you're going because you're mentally ill or for any other reason, doesn't retain the information he obtains in the priva­ cy of the office. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, one final supplementary question to the hon. minister. After receiving input from the department, is the minister in a position to inform the Assembly when the government will be in a position to respond to the individual recommenda­ tions made in the brief of the Canadian Mental Health Association?

The question really relates to the timing. MISS HUNLEY: Certainly I would like to receive the reaction from the Mental Health Advisory Council. I can't tell the hon. member when they will be dealing with it, though usually they deal with such matters rather expeditiously. They don't meet every week, for example; I believe they meet monthly. Land Ownership Regulations MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Af­ fairs. Could the minister indicate when the interim regulations on the land ownership bill introduced yes­ terday will be in effect? MR.

HYNDMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I tabled the draft regulations yesterday, and we'd wish to get the advice of the Assembly and of people throughout the province over the summer before finalizing those. However, in order that there would be no rush on Alberta land prior to the effective provisions of the bill and the regulations, the cabinet will very shortly be passing interim control regulations which will be dated as of yesterday, April 21. MR. MANDEVILLE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Will the interim regulations be the same as the regulations that were tabled yesterday in the House? MR.

HYNDMAN: They will be essentially the same, Mr. Speaker. They may be a digest of the regulations which have been drafted. Those interim regulations will and must be passed for the interim protection of Albertans, on the undertaking and understanding that they will be changed in the fall pursuant to debate of the bill in this House in committee and submissions received over the summer. MR. MANDEVILLE: One final supplementary ques­ tion. Will the interim regulations be retroactive?

April 22, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 909 MR. HYNDMAN: They will be effective, Mr. Speaker, as of the introduction of the bill yesterday, April 21, 1977. Renter Assistance Program MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Provincial Treasurer. It concerns the shortcomings in the Alberta rent assistance credit program, which disqualifies one spouse in a newly-wed couple from claiming the credits for rent paid in the taxation year prior to their marriage. When will the government MR. SPEAKER: If I may interrupt the hon. leader, when he starts off his

preamble with the word "shor­ tcomings" he is certainly inviting debate from the other side, which it would be difficult for the Speaker to inhibit. DR. WARRACK: Divorce is the answer. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Utilities and Telephones suggests divorce is the answer. I ques­ tion that very much. The question then to the Provincial Treasurer: when will the government remove the inequities in the program? [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: It's a very difficult exercise to distin­ guish between "shortcomings" and "inequities". AN HON. MEMBER: Merv, when do you plug the loopholes? MR.

CLARK: When does the Provincial Treasurer an­ ticipate making some changes in the program? MR. LEITCH: Soon. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, when "soon" arrives, will "soon" be retroactive? MR. LEITCH: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, in light of the fact that the Provincial Treasurer sent me a memo dated April 22, 1976, indicating he was considering making changes at that time, how much longer does he need? DR. BUCK: Speedy Merv. MR. NOTLEY: Like John A. Macdonald, [inaudible] tomorrow. MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I have indicated the matter will be dealt with in the near future.

I don't know that I'm in a position to be any more definitive than that. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Provincial Treasurer. Has the Provincial Treas­ urer had representation made to him indicating that the effect of this program is that couples are deciding to get married much earlier in the year so the individ­ ual who has the lower income in the course of the year doesn't lose the taxation benefits of the pro­ gram? Or is it the government's position that in fact couples should live together before they get married? [interjections] MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Speaker, I've had no representations that our program has induced people to marry earlier than they'd otherwise anticipated. Driver Licence Demerit Points DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, [since] we're in a bit of a jovial mood this morning, I'd like to say that my driv­ er's licence is clean. So I want to ask the hon. Solicitor General a question on drivers' licences. Under the demerit point system, can the minister indicate how many demerit points are deducted from a driver's record after completion of a defensive driv­ ing course? MR.

SPEAKER: With great respect, it would seem to the Chair that the regime under which demerit points are awarded or removed is a matter of public knowl­ edge, and possibly of legal

interpretation. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I have a little difficulty fol­ lowing your ruling. My question is . . . [interjections] I would like to ask if the Solicitor General has in place a system whereby a person who has had his licence suspended because of over 15 demerit points has an opportunity to have these demerit points removed by taking a course. MR. FARRAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Basically the system is that we deduct three demerit points for completion of an approved defensive driving course. But if you have 15 demerit points, you're suspended. In other words, we deduct for 14 or less.

If you haven't got the full three demerit points, you'll be deducted two. We don't bank the extra one, if that's clear enough. Basically it's three demerit points for passing a defensive driving course. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, is the minister in a position to indicate if he has considered advising people to take the defensive driving course when they have reached the 15? I know that before you reach the magic number, you may take the course and have it reduced.

Has the minister considered giving to peo­ ple who have gone over 15 the opportunity to take the course and have the demerits removed so they can use their drivers' licences? MR. FARRAN: Well, we haven't gone that far, Mr. Speaker. But when people get to eight demerit points, we warn them with a courtesy letter suggest­ ing they should drive more carefully. At that time they could take a defensive driving course. Also, if you reach 15 demerit points your licence is automati­ cally suspended for a month.

If you do it more than once, you're likely to be referred to the Driver Control Board, perhaps retested with another driving examination, and perhaps ordered by the Driver Con­ trol Board to take some remedial driving education. Emergency Rental Accommodation MR. DIACHUK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. Minister of Housing and Public Works. In the recent hardship encountered by the Bayda family in

910 ALBERTA HANSARD April 22, 1977 Edmonton, I note with pleasure that the Alberta Hous­ ing Corporation has assisted them in locating accommodation. Is this a service the Alberta Housing Corporation is now providing? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, within the administrative capacity of the Alberta Housing Corporation there is a certain degree of elasticity which permits the corpora­ tion to act in emergency cases to allocate or find emergency rental accommodation. However, this is not a common practice. Generally tenant selection procedures are followed, and we do have waiting lists.

I do want to say there are times when the media can work co-operatively with the government to alleviate human hardship, and this was one such case. Canadian Airborne Regiment MR. JAMISON: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a ques­ tion to the Premier. It's a follow-up to a question of about three weeks ago, when I asked the Premier if he would write the Prime Minister or his office regarding the possible move of the Airborne Regi­ ment to Ontario. I was wondering if the Premier has received any correspondence from the Prime Minister or his office. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, I have not received a reply on that matter from the Prime Minister. I noticed he was in western Canada the previous part of this week. Perhaps as a result of his opportunity to visit this part of Canada they'll have a reconsideration of that decision, which was clearly wrong. MR. KING: Although he didn't come to Alberta. DR. BUCK: Call Jack. Freight Rates MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Transportation.

Has the hon. minister had the opportunity of studying the legislation, recently introduced in the House of Com­ mons by the federal Minister of Transport, that would set maximum levels for freight rates? DR. HORNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that's Bill C-33 in the House of Commons. In a general way I could say we are in favor of that piece of legislation, because it does go some distance towards meeting some of the problems we've been putting forward relative to transportation. MR. TAYLOR: Supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Business Development and Tourism.

When this legislation passes, will the hon. minister's department broadcast this news quite extensively in order to encourage manufacturers to come west? MR. SPEAKER: With great respect to the hon. mem­ ber, that is a hypothetical question. Perhaps it could be rephrased in the context of fact. Mobile Homes MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this ques­ tion to either the hon. Minister of Housing and Public Works or the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

Has the government recently received com­ plaints from mobile-home owners who have received word that in future they will have to move their mobile homes when they sell them, rather than being allowed to transfer ownership of the mobile-home lot? MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, there have been a number of complaints along that line. As I understand it, the Institute of Law Research and Reform is presently considering the rather special problems faced by mobile-home owners and has promised to report in that regard. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Housing and Public Works.

Does the government possess any statistics at this time as to the vacancy rate in mobile-home parks in our two major metropolitan areas? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, during the last two years the Department of Housing and Public Works has established a fairly substantive library in regard to the housing situation in Alberta and for Albertans. I know there is a considerable amount of data in regard to mobile-home parks. At this time I can't say wheth­ er there is any current data with respect to availability of pads or vacancy rates in mobile-home parks.

How­ ever, I do want to say that I believe the Alberta Home Mortgage Corporation is requiring a minimum five- year tenancy on money lent for mobile homes which are going to be constructed. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Consumer and Cor­ porate Affairs.

In light of the answer of the Minister of Housing and Public Works, is the minister in a position to advise the Assembly when he anticipates receiving the report from the Institute of Law Research and Reform and when the Assembly might expect legislation which would deal with this problem at least on an interim basis, until the vacancy rate changes? MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, my recollection is that I filed the Institute's document in the House. It's a public document. As such, my recollection is that they have promised it as soon as possible, but did not indicate a date. MR.

NOTLEY: A supplementary question to either minister. Has the government given consideration to commissioning a study to determine the relationship or interconnections between mobile-home park operators and mobile-home builders which might act to the detriment of the mobile-home owner? MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, that is another matter I anticipate might well be covered by the Institute in its report. MR. NOTLEY: One final supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Is it the government's intention to set the fall session as a target date for possible amendments?

April 22, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 911 MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, I can't give that assurance because the Institute has a fair amount of work to do. I'm sure they will let us have the information as soon as they can. MR. PURDY: A supplementary question to the Minis­ ter of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. I wonder if the minister could advise this Assembly if it is the policy of the individual parks to allow or disallow sale of homes when the person moves out. MR. HARLE: Mr.

Speaker, I have trouble with the question from this point of view: I'm not sure it is directed to some responsibility I have in the House as minister. MR. PURDY: A supplementary to the minister then. Will a recommendation be made to the research people of the university to have this included, so we can get clarification as to whether mobile-home owners can move their houses from the parks when they move out or if they can sell them as part of the land? MR. HARLE: Mr.

Speaker, when the Institute made its report on the residential tenancies project and included the point that they would be responding specifically on the subject of mobile-home parks, I'm sure that was a clear invitation to anyone to make suggestions to the Institute so they could make rec­ ommendations to the government in due course. Public Affairs Printing Tenders MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could complete an answer that has been outstanding for some time. On October 20, 1976 I was asked by the hon.

Member for Little Bow whether the Premier [had] been contacted about the con­ cern in the way the printing contracts have been handled by the Public Affairs Bureau? I responded that I had no recollection of that and that I would report and check back. On April 13 I was asked by the hon. Member for Clover Bar: Whether the Premier can indicate whether he's received presentations from concerned printers respecting the method [by which] printing con­ tracts have been handled by the public affairs department. The Premier was asked this ques­ tion last October and said he would report to the House.

I wonder if the Premier has looked into the matter of how tenders have been [handled] in the department of public affairs and can he in­ form the House. Mr. Speaker, I can only answer the part of the question that dealt with representations to me. In that regard I have no record of any representations made either in writing or otherwise and have no recollection of such representations. Any other an­ swers that might flow from the matter would of course by given by the Minister of Government Services. Regional Hospitals MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. It flows from questions I asked earlier in the House with regard to regional hospitals and the de­ velopment of governmental policy as far as extra costs were concerned, especially in the areas of resi­ dence and parking structure. Has the government now established a policy with regard to site improve­ ments at regional hospitals being built in the province? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition appeared to raise the question in terms of parking, and then in terms of site improvements.

I wonder if the hon. leader would be more clear as to which area, because it can vary in terms of policy response between actual parking and site improvements. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, we'll start with site improvements. MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, on site improvements we've indicated we consider that to be a local finan­ cial responsibility.

In the case of parking, we have indicated to Red Deer — and it would have to apply to other regional hospitals — that we are prepared to consider a pro­ vincial sharing in the cost of parking structure — particularly in the case of Red Deer because of the fact that in meeting with the Red Deer hospital board, rather than building a totally new hospital on a new site, the board agreed to expand from the existing hospital base, which created some parking problems.

For that reason we feel Red Deer has a special and unique situation; also, discussing the matter with my colleague the Attorney General, that we could make a specific response to the problem in Red Deer that would be unique from perhaps other regional hospitals. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister, dealing with that portion of the minis­ ter's answer on site improvements.

As far as the Red Deer regional hospital is concerned, it will become the responsibility of the city of Red Deer and that small rural area in the hospital district around the city of Red Deer to pick up the costs for site improvement. Is that the government's policy? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, that's been the policy for some years with respect to whether it's local or provincial financial responsibility. In 1972, when the Alberta property tax reduction plan was passed by this government, one element of cost left to the local tax base was site improvements.

Other elements of capital and operating costs were totally funded by the province. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, one last question to the minister. Does the government's policy distinguish between local hospitals which serve the area and regional hospitals which serve a much broader region? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, I indicated the last time the hon. leader raised that question that we were looking at a policy on sharing of parking for regional hospitals that might differ from the historical sharing of parking costs, which have always been strictly either a hospital financial responsibility or a local

912 ALBERTA HANSARD April 22, 1977 financial responsibility. In the case of the development of regional hospitals — such as Red Deer, Grande Prairie, and Fort McMurray particularly for the growing area there; perhaps Medicine Hat, Lethbridge, and to a lesser degree Peace River — we recognize that we should be looking at a new policy. Dovetailing with that is the fact that in many cases local developments are now requiring underground parking, and the cost of parking is becoming of much greater concern than it has been historically.

So we're looking at the development of a new parking policy with particular respect to regional hos­ pitals in the province. Hospitals — Bulk Buying MR. KUSHNER: Supplementary question to the Minis­ ter of Hospitals and Medical Care. I wonder if the minister could inform this Assembly if the govern­ ment is, in fact, developing a policy of trying to save money in bulk buying, say in Calgary and district, or Edmonton and district, and so on. MR. MINIELY: Mr.

Speaker, while we've looked at various areas of efficiency in cost saving, [on] the matter of bulk purchasing, the Alberta Hospital Asso­ ciation, as the province-wide representative hospital organization, was interested in looking at combining purchasing for various hospitals in the province. I believe this service has developed. But it's on an individual hospital choice; it's not mandatory. To some degree I believe the hospitals are bulk buying through the Alberta Hospital Association in certain areas of purchases.

But I would repeat that this has been developed by the Alberta Hospital Association and the individual hospitals and is a policy that, to this point, the province has encouraged but has not made mandatory. Extended Care Facilities MR. ZANDER: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to either the Minister of Social Services and Community Health or the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. Do any of these departments monitor the backlog of patients awaiting application for admittance to auxil­ iary hospitals and nursing homes in the province of Alberta? MR. MINIELY: Mr.

Speaker, we receive up-to-date waiting lists from each district board with respect to auxiliary hospitals and nursing homes. We have test- checked these in certain instances. One of the diffi­ culties is that in certain cases we have found duplica­ tion where patients are on more than one district waiting list. Nevertheless the answer to the question is yes, we try to determine and keep track of the actual reasonable waiting list or accurate waiting list that would exist for district nursing homes or auxilia­ ry hospitals. MR. ZANDER: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Is it normal for an application to be held for a period of over six months? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, I think that over the period of the development of a nursing home plan in particular, which in Alberta has existed for 12 years, that's not an abnormal situation. However, as I've indicated in the House, during this particular period when we're developing a totally new nursing home finance policy to try to arrive at a more equitable overall nursing home finance policy, applications can be delayed pending the development of that policy, which I hope will be very soon. MR. ZANDER: A final supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. I wonder if the minister could comment: as the only recourse to get a senior citizen into auxiliary hospi­ tals, is it necessary to have them committed to the Alberta Hospital in order to get beyond the six-month period, to get them into some auxiliary hospital? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, I don't think I understand that question when the hon. member refers to the Alberta Hospital and then ultimately an auxiliary hospital. MR. ZANDER: Mr. Speaker, maybe I could clarify this.

I received a phone call this morning that doctors would have to commit [as] a patient an elderly citizen who for a number of months has been on the files of admittance to an auxiliary hospital in the city or elsewhere in the province. The only priority to get him committed anywhere was that he had to be committed to Alberta Hospital by the doctor. MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, I'd be happy to check the specific instance, but as a general rule the answer to that question would be no.

As a general rule the auxiliary hospital admissions are based on assess­ ment and discharge from active treatment hospitals, and can also be on the basis of assessment of Alberta Hospital, Edmonton, or Alberta Hospital, Ponoka, in the case of patients with mental illness. Alberta Game Farm DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Rec­ reation, Parks and Wildlife regarding the Alberta Game Farm. I wonder if the minister would indicate to the House whether he's received any further appli­ cations for government support in the purchase of the Alberta Game Farm. MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Speaker, I've received no applica­ tions to this point in time. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister would indicate to the House whether the govern­ ment's policy to lease land at $1 per year to qualified purchasers is still in place, as well as funding by way of the major recreation facilities grant program? MR. ADAIR: All the questions relating to the state­ ment that any group — bona fide non-profit organiza­ tion, municipal authority, foundation, or whoever it may be — may seek assistance from the government is still in place as per the statement of February 1, 1977. DR.

PAPROSKI: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister indicate to the House how long this policy will remain in place?

April 22, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 913 MR. ADAIR: Right now that deadline is April 30, 1977. DR. PAPROSKI: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the minister would indicate to the House if it's true the Alberta Game Farm will remain in Alberta. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Rural Gas Co-ops MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Utilities and Telephones. Has the minister or his department received any complaints in regard to the

interpretation of the income tax act that indicates you can use half your capital on rural gas co-ops [as] a deduction for tax purposes? DR. WARRACK: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, although it may very well be that some of those representations have been made on the basis of a number of the meetings throughout Alberta that staff have been attending. I would need to check that. In any case, I think I should add that as I understand it, that particular matter would in fact relate to the federal Income Tax Act rather than the provincial. MR. MANDEVILLE: A supplementary question to the Provincial Treasurer, Mr.

Speaker. Would he consid­ er making representation to Ottawa, as was made in 1974, to allow all capital to be used for tax deduction purposes? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I'd be pleased to take the matter under consideration. ORDERS OF THE DAY head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS (Committee of Supply) [Dr. McCrimmon in the Chair] MR. CHAIRMAN: The Committee of Supply will come to order. Culture MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, do you have any open­ ing remarks? MR. SCHMID: Mr.

Chairman, the only opening remark I would like to make at this time is to express my appreciation to the staff of Alberta Culture, especially the deputy minister, assistant deputy ministers, and directors, for their dedication, commitment, and, for that matter, for the full support of the development of the programs of Alberta Culture. Not only do they do that during the normal hours a civil servant is usually expected to work, but no matter what time of the day or which day of the week, they come out and person­ ally show support for the different developments Al­ berta Culture has.

Not only that, [they] also of course show their support by personally being present at many functions that different communities happen to be putting on. DR. BUCK: Mr. Chairman, I hope the minister will just be a little more free with his words as he progresses, because I think there are many questions we're going to be asking the minister and his department. First of all, it's been written and [is] past record that the administration of funds in this department has been, to be benevolent, quite loose. So I would like to [ask] one or two questions at this time, if the minister can assure the committee.

In light of the fact that the grants are up, what internal procedures are now in effect to safeguard payment of grants? Secondly, what pre-audit procedures are in effect for this purpose? If we follow the proceedings going on in some of the trials before the trial division right now, we see that grants have been taken from every which way in this department. They've been taken from different appropriations. It seems to be quite difficult to follow where the grants are coming from and even where they are going.

So that's the first question I would like to ask the minister: just what internal procedures are in place to safeguard payments of grants? MR. SCHMID: First of all, Mr. Chairman, the financial administration has been tightened up: a centralized financial administration office has been created. Then, of course, applicants for grants have to swear a declaration that they are in fact the applicant asking for the grant, and what they will do with this grant if it's approved. Then accounting has to be submitted to Alberta Culture, usually within a specified period of time, if the moneys have been so used.

If not, they would have to be returned to the Provincial Treasurer. May I also state, Mr. Chairman, that as far as the remarks of the hon. member of the opposition are concerned, I can only assure the hon. member again that all the applicants are being checked wherever possible, even before any consideration is given. Then, of course, they are also being paid only under the respective regulations and policies in place in Alberta Culture. DR. BUCK: Can the minister indicate just what direc­ tion his department will be taking as far as what is going to happen to the Ukrainian Village?

We can go through this when we come to the appropriate appro­ priation, but I would just like to know the govern­ ment's philosophy on that. It's quite a major invest­ ment of federal and provincial taxpayers' dollars. I go past that area many times, and the hon. Member for Vegreville does. I'm sure the people who bring repre­ sentation to us are concerned about what is happen­ ing to that project, because a large amount of the taxpayers' money was invested. I would like to know the department's general philosophy, and what they're going to do.

That's the first area of concern I would like the minister to expound on — the general direction they're moving in and what they're going to do. MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, with pleasure. First of all of course, I am sure the hon. member realizes that any money the federal government put into the Ukrainian Cultural Village at the time is definitely not the responsibility of the provincial government.

914 ALBERTA HANSARD April 22, 1977 Therefore, I think the accounting would have to come through the federal government. However, as the hon. member would also appreci­ ate, first of all the government had to ascertain that the different, should I say, groups which express in­ terest in the preservation of the heritage of the pioneers of Ukrainian ancestry definitely would have to be brought together at least, so they could all have input into the development of the village.

We have now asked for the development of a master plan which will be looked at by the advisory board — hopefully then established — to the minister. The expenditures in the budget this year, for instance, would provide for fencing the village, then especially for the provision of water in case of an emergency, amenities for visitors, and a parking lot. Further development of the other part of the village would depend of course on future appropriations by the Legislature. DR. BUCK: Mr. Chairman, to the minister.

Can the minister give us some indication about when some­ thing is going to happen besides just putting a fence around the place? The fence isn't going to help keep the facilities and buildings from deteriorating, and that's my concern. I'd like to inform the minister, regardless of [whether] it's a federal grant that was put in that area, it's still all the same taxpayers' money. My concern is that — because the thing is deteriorating year after year and because we own it now — we should be doing something more than just putting a fence around it. MR. SCHMID: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, as I mentioned before it's not just going to be putting a fence around. The master plan itself will provide not only for preser­ vation of the buildings which are presently on the site but also for the development, let's say, of individual sites. Probably the idea would be to have a certain portion of the village developed into what a typical village in that district may have looked like at the turn of the century or right after, or what a typical farm may have looked like at the time the first pioneers came and built their huts and sod-covered buildings, and so on and so forth. Mr.

Chairman, again the fence is only one of the smaller portions. Definitely everything will be done in the present year to preserve as much as we can. For instance, by Ukrainian Day held annually on the last Sunday of August, we hope to have enough ameni­ ties and enough improvement of the village that probably our good Ukrainian Canadians can hold their Ukrainian Day at the village this year and, at that time, be proud of what has been done at the village. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I would like to deal with two or three items.

I've never had the privilege of visiting the Ukrainian museum on Highway 16, though I've heard a lot about it. But on a number of occasions I have visited the Ukrainian village on Highway 45, near the Shandro ferry operated by Mr. and Mrs. Wasyl Zazula. I can't think of the exact name of it. MR. SCHMID: A type of museum? MR. TAYLOR: Yes, a type of museum. This is a really outstanding, privately-operated operation. I don't know whether they've ever asked for government assistance. They are very independent people, very splendid people. I've always been fascinated when I've gone to that museum.

It's as if they've picked up a part of the Ukraine and moved it right over into part of Alberta. You get a tremendous insight into what life was like in the Ukraine. I think these people are really to be commended and encouraged in this estimate. As a matter of fact, some years ago the government donated the old Shandro ferry to that museum, because of the tremendous interest in that area. I just can't be high enough in praise of that site. If hon. members have not visited it, I'd certainly suggest they endeavor to do so.

It's a real insight into the contributions the Ukrainian people have made to Canada, and indicates some of the hardships they have experienced. At one program the ladies there demonstrated the evolution of washing clothes, from the time they would rub the clothes together in a stream, right up to the modern washing machine. It was a really excellent experience. I would like to see the hon. minister encourage that type of privately-owned museum as much as possible — maybe not with grants, but with grants if neces­ sary. Perhaps we don't find too many dedicated peo­ ple like Mr. and Mrs.

Wasyl Zazula, but I think that's a real contribution to the culture of this province. I'd like to say a word or two on the point in connec­ tion with the issuance of grants, hon. member from Fort Saskatchewan. I hope the tremendous good and the tremendous work this department is doing will not be eclipsed by the bad actions of one or two people in the past. I think the department has some excellent personnel. While from the minister down I have had a number of noes in regard to recommenda­ tions from my constituency, the noes are always given with a reason and with regret.

The ones that are accepted are given encouragement, also advice that they make the very best use of the money spent. In our constituency we have a number of people from the Fiji Islands, who want to make part of the culture of those islands into part of the mural of Canadian culture. That group received a grant. That's a real incentive for these people to realize the government is interested enough to give them a small grant to encourage them to bring their own culture as part and parcel of the great Canadian mosaic. That's really how Canadian culture is different from all cul­ tures of the world.

We're made up of maybe the best cultures of almost every people on the face of the earth. That should be encouraged. I want to thank the minister for his interest in that type of group and for encouraging those people. They were really heartened when they received some help from the government to propagate the continuation of their culture and make it part of the great Canadian mosaic. So in concluding that, I'd like to say I haven't found any looseness at all in the administration of the department. I have to say I was disappointed at times when the answer was no.

But if there's no provision, then there's no provision. That's the responsibility of us as legislators, not particularly of the minister. I want to commend the department and its personnel for a very excellent job, I believe, in expanding culture in almost every field. The government has given people in rural areas, such as the Drumheller area,

April 22, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 915 an opportunity to hear some of the best music in Canada, that they would never hear if there weren't some encouragement along that line. In my view the encouragement to drama is also a very, very worth­ while thing. I'm not going to take time dealing with all those items, because I think all hon. members are aware of what's going on. I would like to say a word or two in connection with regional libraries. The advance in libraries this year is very noteworthy and, I think, well received by the people of the province and those who are attached to our libraries.

They always wish it was more. Of course that's a human failing; we always want more. But I think the advance this year was very commendable. I would like to see further advances in regional libraries. Regional libraries strategically located in the province, where there can be a continual exchange of books — monthly, bimonthly, or every second month — will enhance reading throughout the province and cut down expenses. I don't see any necessity for every library to have every book on the market. But I do think it's really worthwhile when they can get some of the latest books on a basis of borrowing.

Several years ago in the Red Deer valley school division, we had a system where the main library was kept in the head office in Drumheller. Once a month the teachers would take down 40 books and take back another 40 books. I found this most valuable when I was teaching in the rural schools. Before that, we had the same books month after month after month, and maybe added to once every three or four years. There wasn't much money for books in those days. So I would like to ask the minister if we are making plans to enlarge this idea of regional libraries in the province.

Even if we make a small advance each year, eventually it's going to lead to a tremendously wonderful library system in the province of Alberta. The other item I want to mention is this matter of international assistance. I would like to commend the hon. minister and the government for having some concern about those who are less fortunate than we are and who are not even part of our country. There are some terrible things going on in some parts of the world where children are dying in the streets and men and women are not getting enough to eat.

I think I've told the House once before about the sailor who told me that in the country he visited they were eating scraps out of the mess cans behind a military camp. Women with babies on their backs were trying to get enough food to keep body and soul together. I think we have to be our brother's keeper in some respect. I think there's a proper place for it and I like the way the Alberta government operates by saying to the people, if you are concerned, put your money where your mouth is and we'll match what you raise.

So a number of churches in the province — I don't know how many and perhaps the minister can give us some enlargement on that — certainly two or three I know of, go to extreme pains and sacrifice in raising money because they know the government will match it and it will do twice as much good in that way. It's being handled, I believe, by those churches them­ selves and in most of those cases it's dedicated serv­ ice with very little going to administration, most of it going right to the needs of the people of those underdeveloped countries. I notice there's $2.7 million in the budget this year.

That would probably mean $5.4 million from this province was going to help our brothers of various colors of skins and kinds of eyes, but all human beings. I think this is an excellent thing and I want to commend the minister for the interest he takes in this international assistance. MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the hon. Member for Drumheller for his remarks. First of all, I would like to ask the hon. Member for Clover Bar — I'm quite sure he inadvertently said Alberta Culture. On the matter before the court at the present, he probably meant culture with recreation and not Alber­ ta Culture. Mr.

Chairman, to refer to the Shandro museum, every year I have the privilege and honor to be at the Shandro museum at the annual Shandro museum day. This year it's on June 19. Any member who is interested in the heritage of our Ukrainian Canadians is going to have a fine day there from sod huts to — in fact this year I understand they're going to have home-baked bread. They built an oven out there, and they have plans to serve home-baked bread this year and every year in some endeavor.

I can assure hon. members that they will not only come home with a satisfied digestive system but also with the satisfac­ tion they have once again experienced the hardships our pioneers had to put into pioneering work to make Alberta what it is today, also of course showing that it took that kind of pioneer spirit to be able to do the work; to stand through the ice cold, frozen winters and the droughts and grasshoppers in the summer.

May I also say I'm quite sure that the hon. member is too modest to state that it's probably through his efforts and thanks to him that the Shandro ferry is out there in that village. In fact it is very popular equip­ ment, especially for the children, because they are climbing up and down and over it at all times when there is a visitor program out there. For the interest of the hon. member, I should state that the Shandro museum actually is a society, and because it is a society it is eligible for help from the provincial government under our policy to help people who help themselves.

They have received some financial sup­ port and of course they were happy with that because last year, for instance, they were able to put in a windmill and a smithy. Every year they add some other items. As the hon. member said, it's one of the finest museums one can possibly see in the province of Alberta. Mr.

Chairman, as far as the book exchange is concerned, maybe I should state that as a prelimi­ nary, at least to show the people of Alberta how a regional library could work, one should remember that in my ministerial announcement we mentioned that Calgary and Edmonton will be supply depots for outlying areas. In other words if Drumheller would like to have an exchange of books, certain volumes, let's say once every two months, they could apply to the Calgary library, which hopefully would be able to supply them with certain titles.

I well imagine that to go to libraries in the outlying areas — even Drum­ heller which is very close to the hub of provincial activities — I think a turnaround or exchange of books would probably stimulate additional interest and show the people of Drumheller and area what the regional library really could do.

916 ALBERTA HANSARD April 22, 1977 At the same time may I also express the apprecia­ tion of the government, especially of Alberta Culture. As is naturally always the case, where there's no interest, there is of course no effort.

Then, for instance, how could Alberta Culture put musical pro­ grams into Drumheller if the people of Drumheller themselves did not first of all create an interest, express the desire to listen for instance to the Little Angels of Korea, and then give them the kind of government of Alberta hospitality and welcome that these children will never forget on the rest of their trips around the world.

Naturally if the Alberta government gets accolades from visiting artists saying how delightful and won­ derful it was to visit the outlying centres of Alberta, because of the hospitality extended to them, I think it is only natural that the Alberta government should at least come in with some financial help. Because the people themselves have gone in and established a community concert series. For instance the Fijians have established a radio program and have run it for a while without help.

This little financial help they are receiving and have received is, I hope, at least an encouragement to share with other Albertans the cul­ tural wealth they have brought as immigrants to this country. Mr. Chairman, I would think the international aid program is one of the most outstanding programs in Canada. It has been referred to as such numerous times. Maybe it would be of interest to the members, that any money raised by Albertans for an interna­ tional aid program is matched by the Alberta govern­ ment, but only if that amount of money is given directly to a specific aid program.

In other words, if a truck is purchased to replace a truck which has been destroyed in an accident, and that truck is bringing products, machinery, and fertilizer to the centre in Sakabi in Upper Volta, for the amount of $1,050 which was our portion, then all I can say is this that the agency which forwarded that money forwarded the very same amount, in other words no deduction for administration or anything else.

I should also say it seems that of the 134 projects funded last year under the international aid program, one of the major endeavors was the supply of clean and fresh water to the many different underdeveloped nations. [It] has been one of the major subjects of the Habitat program. Because of the interest our former Minister of the Environment and now Minister of Housing and Public Works expressed in this case, he is naturally always very pleased when he finds that another water program is going forward because of the international assistance program of the Alberta government. MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr.

Chairman, if the minister needs any more ferries for any of the heritage parks in Alberta, the hon. Member for Hanna-Oyen and I have enough on the Red Deer River for every heritage park in the province of Alberta. I'm sure we'll help him and the Minister of Transportation get these fer­ ries out of there, if it's at all possible, so we can get some bridges in. Mr. Chairman, on the overall expenditure here I see that grants are up 47 per cent in the estimates. Could the minister indicate whether this is in addition to programs we now have, or if any new grants are going to be implemented? MR. SCHMID: No, Mr.

Chairman, actually the increase is especially due to the very high increase in grants to Alberta libraries which is in excess of $2 million. Another increase of about $300,000 is due to the increase in the international assistance pro­ gram. Of course, keeping in step with moneys raised by the Alberta performing arts organizations, we match 25 per cent of the money they have raised from the private sector. There is also an increase in that portion.

But again, the major increase is really because of the library support program, which as the hon. member knows has been one of the best pro­ grams announced in the past as far as Alberta libraries are concerned. MR. MANDEVILLE: There is one other large increase here, Mr. Chairman. That's the 49 per cent increase in supply and services. I wonder if the minister could briefly outline the reason for the large increase in that vote. MR. SCHMID: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would be pleased to explain that increase. It shows as a rather large increase, but in effect is a matter of that money not being expended last year.

The forecast is for lower than the actual expenditure. It shows a rather large increase in supply and services and there actually wasn't, because the money allocated to the program by the Legislature wasn't expended last year. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a few comments regarding this particular department. First, I would like to congratulate the minister for his intensity, vigor, and sincere conscientiousness regarding the application of this department to our citizens and communities. That goes without saying.

I would like to subscribe without equivocation to the comments made by the Member for Drumheller. I agree with him completely. I know the minister does appreciate those kinds of comments, and he well deserves them. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make one comment regarding Vote 4, international assistance, and again compliment the government regarding this particular vote, in that I understand we still provide more per capita than any other province.

I would hope the minister in his deliberation across the country with other provinces and the federal government will encourage provinces to expand their programs in this regard. I think all too often this Legislature and legis­ latures across Canada forget the tremendous amount of suffering and general lack that is apparent in the underdeveloped areas of the world. With the activi­ ties we have locally in the province, we can very quickly forget that these things do in fact exist. In regard to international assistance, I would like to ask how many agencies are in fact participating in Alberta.

I wonder if the minister has that? He may not; he can get it later. How many are participating in Alberta in respect to the agencies and then funded according to their raising of funds? Who in fact used some of the projects we support? I am not in any way questioning whether these things are well intended, but have we as a government . . . do the agencies report to us the funds applied for a specific project in place and carried out in a underdeveloped country? And are we still the highest in Canada on a per capita basis?

April 22, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 917 The last comment I would like to make, and ques­ tion, is regarding film censorship. Mr. Chairman, I think the members of the Legislature know very well that many of us are, and I suggest all of us should be, concerned with the excessive amount of violence, perverted sex, and so forth in the media generally, not necessarily in films.

I would like to ask whether the monitoring system in the film censorship as it relates to the statistics that flow from the film censorship, indicating the number of family, adult, and restricted adult movies . . . whether this is in fact what happens in the community. Or is it merely what the film censorship [board] is reviewing, and saying: we have reviewed so many of these in this category? But what is in fact showing in the community is a completely different thing.

If monitoring what is being shown on a percentage basis across the province is not being done, is any discussion or dialogue going on with his department or other provinces to see if this should be done? As you know, I brought in legislation to try to increase the number of family movies. I intend to bring that back in very short order.

I would like to be reasonable with the people showing the films, in the sense of recognizing that there has to be a proper balance, and recognizing that at the same time we want to counterbalance, not to censor but to give an appropriate number of family movies in our communi­ ties so individuals, families, and children have an opportunity to view things that are appropriate and healthy. MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, maybe I should state first of all that 134 projects were funded in the '76-77 fiscal period. Thirty-four agencies received those projects; 55 countries were assisted.

Some of these countries have a per capita income of less than $100 compared to Alberta at about $5,400. These are the countries we support on a priority basis. Maybe I should also state that the support program operates on the requests of audited financial statements. We also require a report from the agency as to their allocation and expenditure of funds for a particular project. As far as censorship is concerned, Mr.

Chairman, in the annual report every year we naturally show how many movies were censored altogether, how many were classified as family, adult, or restricted adult, or for that matter how many were rejected. However, I don't think the censorship board concerns itself at present with the actual distribution and showing of the movies. It is after all based on a free enterprise system.

The possibility of course exists that whatever movie draws the biggest crowds, whatever movie for that matter is the best financial success, would play longest, and would probably ei­ ther be brought back or a similar one be brought into the respective theatres of the different corporations which distribute those films in the province of Alberta. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Chairman, on that point. The minister hit the central point, exactly what I am concerned about. I think we should all be concerned about that. I am really requesting that the minister and his department . . .

I would get on my hands and knees if it would help. This particular area [is] central to the point of film censorship or counterbalancing the excess production of violent or perverted sex movies or restricted adult movies, recognizing that we as a community or in Canada are not necessarily against all of that, also recognizing that there are many families who require an opportunity to view family movies.

If we don't have any control in that regard the minister is in fact saying — and I know he doesn't subscribe to this — that no matter how many films are categorized as family, adult, and restricted adult movies, the community could be completely opposite to that. In other words, it could be all family movies — which it's not, and I wish it were — or all restricted adult or adult 80 or 90 per cent of the time. Mr. Chairman, I suggest at any time any member ask his children to review the type of movies present­ ly showing in any given community.

It's really unfor­ tunate that the percentage of family movies, the percentage of time shown, is very, very low in our community. I suggest that our community standards would merit a little more on the family side. MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, of course I would have to reply to that proposal, that present regulations and The Cultural Development Act would not permit Al­ berta Culture, or for that matter the Alberta govern­ ment, even to direct theatres on what kind of movies they should be showing.

I would say the only oppor­ tunity given right now for the allocation of special category movies, be it family, adult, restricted adult, or whatever, would really be by the feed of the voters more than it would be requested that the people who are exposed to that kind of film just do not visit the respective theatre. They will pretty soon know the financial obligation the theatre would then involve itself in because the people were not coming, would then definitely prefer the family movie to an adult or restricted adult movie. DR. PAPROSKI: One final comment, Mr. Chairman, on this particular topic.

If a private member's bill was brought in, would the minister view that bill with seriousness if it was a proper balance of, say, 50/50 or 60/40 for family movies? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, far be it from me to view any bill brought into this Legislature as not serious.

The hon. member knows if he gets the support of the majority of this House, I as minister, charged with administration of the bill would natural­ ly be delighted to be a part of the administration to make sure that exposure be given to family movies which would permit families to view the kind of shows they would prefer to see rather than some other things that I haven't time to go to myself. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Chairman, would the minister indicate whether the film censorship board has any control whatsoever with respect to producers and the types of movies they're feeding into Alberta.

Is there any monitoring with respect to that, asking whether family movies are on the shelves somewhere in New York or Hollywood, or are we just accepting what's coming in? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, the only thing The Amusements Act presently allows the Alberta gov­ ernment to do is censor the films which come into the province and classify them — at least as far as the

918 ALBERTA HANSARD April 22, 1977 censorship board is concerned — according to the acceptance of the community of the type of film being shown. That's about all we can do under the present regulations and act. DR. BUCK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make a further comment or two. I'm a little disturbed, when we ask questions and try to get information to make sure the taxpayers' dollars are being properly spent, that we are trying to belittle someone or questioning some­ body's ability to do a job. That is not the purpose of being in the opposition.

The purpose is to make sure the minister is administering the funds of his depart­ ment in a manner which will satisfy the taxpayer. When we talk about the excellent job the civil service is doing, I would like to remind the members of the Assembly that the hon. minister inherited many of the deputy ministers and assistant deputy ministers. So we all agree they're doing a good job. Otherwise we wouldn't have hired them, and the minister wouldn't have been able to inherit them. Mr.

Chairman, it always bothers me that when we ask these questions the government members espe­ cially seem to think there's some ulterior motive. The motive is to make sure the dollars are being spent well. So I would just like to say that's the basis the questions rise from. I'm still quite concerned about the internal proce­ dures as far as payments of grants go, Mr. Chairman.

Because when we look at newspaper articles and find that the Edmonton Symphony Society received a grant out of the cemetery fund, and the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra received about $35,000 out of the cemetery fund, you really wonder who was responsible for . . . MR. NOTLEY: Who was burying who? DR. BUCK: Who was burying who, and who is going to get the axe and who should get the axe. MR. DIACHUK: It's a dead issue. DR. BUCK: The government wishes it would be a dead issue, but we're going to make sure it's not. [interjections] MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. DR. BUCK: Mr. Chairman, the fact that there was . . . MR.

FARRAN: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order . . . MR. CLARK: Oh, sit down. MR. FARRAN: What do you mean — oh, sit down? DR. BUCK: Is the member speaking from his place, or just as an observer here, Mr. Chairman? MR. APPLEBY: Sit down, Buck. He'll come back up. MR. CLARK: Quiet, Appleby! DR. BUCK: On a point of order, in committee can the hon. member speak from his place or any place? MR. CHAIRMAN: No, the hon. member has to speak from his own seat on a point of order. MR. CLARK: Hustle, Roy. MR. FARRAN: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, is it proper for an hon. member to raise subjects presently before the court?

DR. BUCK: Mr. Chairman, if the member wants to get the same news article, I think he will find this trial has already been concluded. Furthermore, it's public information. MR. NOTLEY: The man was acquitted. DR. BUCK: The man was acquitted. AN HON. MEMBER: His appeal could come up. DR. BUCK: We don't know. It's up to you to appeal the thing. We'd like to know . . . MR. HYNDMAN: You may have prejudiced the appeal. DR. BUCK: We may have prejudiced the appeal? Maybe it's not before the appeal. Maybe the hon. Attorney General hasn't that information. We don't know. MR. APPLEBY: Address the Chair. DR. BUCK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, tell the hon. Member for Athabasca, the member responsible for rules of some description, that if the hon. House leader will go through the Chair, I'd be pleased to. Mr. Chairman, what I'm concerned with is that because there was such utter chaos in this depart­ ment — utter chaos, as the quotation in this

article said . . . To me it has to be utter chaos when you give the Edmonton Symphony Society and the Calgary Phi­ lharmonic Orchestra almost $34 million out of the cemetery fund . . . MR. CLARK: Thirty-four thousand. DR. BUCK: . . . thirty-four thousand — I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman — and that somebody doesn't know what's going on in that department. The ultimate responsi­ bility rests with the minister. And I give the minister his due. I know he works like a dog. He does. I don't think any minister on this front bench works that hard. But incompetence is incompetence. I don't say the minister's incompetent.

But I say that what is happening in this department, as far as making sure the taxpayers dollars are being well spent, makes one wonder who's in charge. So I want to know what is in place now to assure us that we will not have this kind of fiasco again, Mr. Chairman. MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, first of all maybe I could state that I would appreciate it if the member, as I have asked him before . . . I don't know. Before I said that I'm quite sure he did it inadvertently, and now I have to say he's probably doing it with specific purpose, which I detest. Of course the hon. member usually does things like that.

April 22, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 919 Again it's not this department. It was the Depart­ ment of Culture, Youth and Recreation, specifically the special programs division of that department. It's not this department, Mr. Chairman. Maybe I should explain, since it was brought up and is before the courts. I shall confine myself to examples which were mentioned. I understand newspaper articles couldn't be mentioned in the House anyway, but I just would like to explain something. As it so happened, both the Edmonton Symphony and the Calgary Philharmonic had an employment program.

These people had students employed, and they were waiting for payment for the time they had worked for them. Because of the holdup in any stage — I don't know at the time what stage it was in — of the moneys to be appropriated for that employment program, I understand we thought it would be possi­ ble to take the money out of the cemetery program and then have it replaced from the STEP program once that amount of money came to the department. That's why the head of the division of the department at the time sent forward the request for having moneys paid to those students.

And that's why that money was paid out of the cemetery program. As far as Alberta Culture is concerned now, which is a different department altogether, as I have stated before, there are safeguards; and as I have also stated, a new position was created, financial adminis­ tration, which specifically checks all the regulations and any application against the regulations, against the act, and against the statutory declaration which has to be made. I would say there was, without any question, a form that would ask.

Because the admin­ istration has been centralized where everything has to go through that one office before anything is done and approved, there alone has been at least an 80 per cent improvement as far as the overall administration of the grant system is concerned. DR. BUCK: Mr. Chairman, it's a pretty smooth move if you can run into a problem and then change the department and hope the members of the opposition and the taxpayers are going to forget about it. But it's just not going to work that way.

We just want to make sure that things tighten up from this former department so we don't have a recurrence of this. That's what I want the minister to direct his depart­ ment to do. I know you can be accused of inflicting more red tape. But if we have to go that route, then we have to have more red tape. I don't think we have to have more red tape, Mr. Chairman. I think we just have to make sure that standard accounting procedures are followed.

I just find it unbelievable that a department of government can say: well, we'll take $40,000 out of this department and shove it into the other one, and then when the money comes in there we'll move it around. I don't think that's standard accounting procedure. When we're using funds to supplement STEP, when the money comes in there, we'll juggle it back. I would certainly hate to be the Provincial Auditor if I was trying to follow that transaction of funds from one

section of the department to another department and into a third one. The poor Provincial Auditor would certainly have a bad time trying to follow that. As his report indicated, I guess he did have a difficult time following that. So, Mr. Chairman, we just want to be assured without any doubt that we're not going to have a repeat of what we had several years ago. MR. SCHMID: Mr.

Chairman, again I have to state that immediately following the problems, which we were made aware of, the department staff was advised and has scrupulously followed the request that strict financial procedure should be in place, that strict accounting procedure should be in place, and I'm quite sure this has been done ever since then.

On the other hand, of course — since the hon. member mentions back and forth, and so on and so forth — I would like to tell him that he would be one of the first to come to this House with the statement that a student out there who has worked three or four weeks has not in fact been able to eat because of what might be called government red tape. I know of [such a] case. The person could not even pay his rent and had to move out. That is one of the reasons this kind of payment was made. They were students who had worked and who needed the money in order to live, in order to eat.

Therefore again I have to state those things were done in Special Programs because of need. The need was apparent at the time. In the meantime they have not been repeated, and I can assure the hon. Member for Clover Bar that correct financial procedures are being followed. Again, I wish he would keep the two things separate, because we are concerned with Al­ berta Culture estimates at this time. As I have stated before and will state again categorically, we have strict financial procedures in process, where it now takes sometimes as much as three, four, or five months to get an application approved.

We'd rather take that time and have someone out there irate, than not have the correct financial procedures in place. DR. BUCK: Mr. Chairman, I just don't buy that. There are many, many instances when it takes three, four, five, six, and eight months for a person who has done work for the government to get paid. But we don't go ahead and take an appropriation from Utilities to pay a man who's doing some work for the Solicitor General. You just don't do that. That's what I'm trying to indicate to the minister: he just can't have this going on. MR. SCHMID: Mr.

Chairman, I stated again that this is not going on at present. Not only that. It was not from one department to another; it was with one division of which we were not aware. Again I have to state categorically that this is Alberta Culture, that The Financial Administration Act is being followed, that the regulations are in place, and that

an act has been approved. Therefore it's not Alberta Culture that has done things that a certain division within Culture, Youth and Recreation had at a time done wrongly, which I have said was a mistake. The member continually refers to Alberta Culture and continually refers to it like it's being done now. That was in the past. That was done a year or two ago. DR. BUCK: The minister can get as upset as he wishes. The same minister is doing the same job but in a different section. I want to know if he's going to have the same foul-up in this new area of responsibil­

920 ALBERTA HANSARD April 22, 1977 ity that he had in the old one. He just can't walk away from that. We've had that answer in this Legis­ lature before. A minister was responsible for some fiddling and fooling around and incompetence. The next time he's gone through that shifting of musical chairs he says, I'm not responsible for what I did a year ago when I was the minister in that department. Well who the Sam Scratch is responsible then? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, a matter of responsibili­ ty is one thing [interjections] DR. BUCK: Sit down till I'm finished. I'm just a little upset, Mr. Chairman.

I'm a little upset when this government thinks they can walk away from a prob­ lem by just changing the headings in the department. That's not right, it shouldn't be right, and the people of this province should recognize it's not right. We had this Office of Special Programs, and a lot of money was pumped out that nobody was answerable for. If we think we can just walk away from that and say: this has been revamped, don't ask me questions on that — I don't buy that, Mr. Chairman.

I'm a taxpayer and everybody in this House is a taxpayer, and the people out there who are taxpayers want to know if this money's being well spent. I think it was misspent. So, Mr. Chairman, I just want to make sure that minister doesn't make the same error he made before, that cost the taxpayers of this province a lot of money. AN HON. MEMBER: You'd sure like to buy the Game Farm. DR. BUCK: I'd certainly like to buy the Game Farm. If we gave it to a foundation, surely they would do a lot better job than some of the ministers are doing right now, I'll tell you. [interjections] MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Chairman, three separate things. First of all, just following on for a moment. Mr. Minister, the fact of the matter is: you raised this issue. You raised it by pointing out why the payments had been made, taking money from the cemetery fund to pay people under STEP. The Member for Clover Bar makes a very valid point. Fine, we'll refer to it as the Office of Special Programs in the Depart­ ment of Culture, Youth and Recreation, for which the minister was responsible. But the fact of the matter is: it is a highly questionable proposition to take money from one division for whatever purpose, how­ ever laudable.

No one is going to argue for a moment that in terms of public policy it isn't laudable to pay students who need the money. But the fact of the matter is that to use money from another division, specified for anoth­ er program, then to shuffle it back is going to create what the auditor himself said: a state of financial chaos. No matter how worthy the motive — at this time no one is questioning the minister's motives, certainly I'm not. I can see somebody coming to the minister and saying, look, we've got students who aren't getting paid. The minister says, okay, we've got to deal with that.

Or the people in the department say, we've got to deal with that. But the fact of the matter is, it seems to me it's not justifiable. If it means people have to wait, then people have to wait. What it probably means, Mr. Minister, is that in our approach we have to spend more time designing these programs — STEP or what have you — so we can cut down the waiting time. That's probably where the real onus comes on the ministers, because you're the policy-makers.

If any lesson is to be learned from the sad situation in the Office of Special Programs in the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation, it may well be that we're just going to have to find better ways of doing it consistent with the regulations, as opposed to moving from hither to thither to deal with problems as they arise. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to raise two additional ques­ tions. I hesitate to sidetrack the members of the committee from this useful discussion, but I want to go back for a minute to the question about classifica­ tion of movies raised by the Member for Edmonton Kingsway.

I can't think of a more troubling problem to deal with in this day and age. We have in the United States today a major case concerning an abso­ lutely outrageous pornographic magazine. That case is going to be tested in the Supreme Court. From any vantage point of community taste, that magazine or newspaper shouldn't be read and shouldn't be allowed on the newsstands. Except — and this is the argument of people who oppose censorship — where do you draw the line in censor­ ship? That's the disturbing thing.

So many of the movies and so much of the literature on our news­ stands is the most outrageous kind of exploitation. There's just no question about that. But what troubles me is: who in fact can play God and be the censor? I have thought about that for some time, balancing off what I consider to be widespread, continued exploitation by people who see a buck, put out abso­ lute trash, and take advantage of the public. I have no easy answers. I was glad the Member for Edmon­ ton Kingsway raised it today.

I don't know how to ensure there are more family movies unless we legis­ late and say, all right, we're going to have to move in this area. But the Member for Edmonton Kingsway is right. Look at the advertising for movies in any of the major papers. The vast majority of the movies playing in the theatres are restricted adult. They range from being good movies that are tastefully made to the worst kind of "sexploitation". There's a larger part of this question too. When people talk generally about taste, I think they are preoccupied with whether you have undue exploita­ tion of sex.

Probably a more serious problem, from our society's vantage point, is the undue exploitation of violence both in movies and every day on the television screen. That's one of the most disturbing things. What are the statistics — when a young boy or girl enters grade 1 he or she has seen, what is it, 7,000 or 10,000 people shot? The average North American young person is watching all the blood and thunder stories, plays, and what have you, that go on every day. The rather perplexing

part is that if you talk to people in the business who run television stations, if Mannix, San Francisco Beat, or whatever, is taken off and you have a public affairs program — it could be a debate, for that matter, between the hon. Member for Clover Bar and the hon. minister, which might not be bad theatre at times. But you know, we could take Mannix off and put that on, and all of a sudden the CBC and CFRN would have probably 15,000 phone

April 22, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 921 calls from irate people saying, why are you taking our blood and thunder off, people getting shot — and we just have a couple of politicians battling back and forth. That's the problem. I don't know how you solve it, I really don't. People talk about violence in society and rising crime waves. I don't see how we can divorce what the average young person reads and sees every day on television, where violence is glorified — that that isn't going to have an effect on that person. It seems to me it is. I'm so shocked that I got some support from the hon.

Solicitor General that I'm almost ready . . . MR. CLARK: Better watch out, you might be in trouble. MR. NOTLEY: Yes, that's true. He is in his seat, so he can make a legitimate point of order. I'm sorry, Jim, I didn't catch that. MR. HORSMAN: You're sounding like a Tory. MR. NOTLEY: That's not a Tory position, I assure you. MR. CLARK: The Tories have had enough shocks this week. MR. NOTLEY: I can appreciate that the hon. member in charge of Calgary is looking for recruits as a result of the attrition rate in the Tory party, which is steadily growing more serious. But you'll have to look else­ where.

Although being minister without portfolio in charge of Spirit River may be a very flattering offer, I think I'll pass it by. Might I move on, Mr. Chairman, to the question of the government's plans for Dunvegan Park. I'd like the minister to respond. As the minister knows, last year there was some controversy concerning Dunve­ gan between local people and officials of the historic sites division of the provincial government. Has the minister got my attention? Because I want to say a couple of things about what happened. MR. SCHMID: Yes. MR.

NOTLEY: Number one, what had happened — for the benefit of other members of the House — was that over a number of years various people in the Peace River country had donated items to Dunvegan Mission. So the mission and the centre there had become something of an historic site. People from all over had visited the site. Mr. Chairman, last spring officials in the depart­ ment felt that changes were necessary in order to make Dunvegan more consistent with its historical development dating back many years. Unfortunately there wasn't proper consultation with local people.

Secondly, I think many of the artifacts collected and donated by people in the community took away from the Dunvegan site. As I see it, Mr. Minister, what should have been done last year was to bring in a trailer or something of that nature to display the items the historic sites people had put in, which I thought were an addition but not a substitute at the Dunvegan site. Mr. Chairman, I understand this matter has been renegotiated, and some changes are going to be made during the coming session. So perhaps the minister could bring us up to date on his plans for Dunvegan during the coming summer season. MR.

SCHMID: Yes. First of all, Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Spirit River- Fairview as well for his concern regarding the — as he called it very well — trash coming into the prov­ ince for approval. In fact it's not only for approval sometimes, but even for appeal in case the movie is rejected. Just a few titles alone would probably indi­ cate what kind of junk we are getting. For instance: Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Dr. Feelgood's Sex Clinic. Lash of Lust, The Love Cave, The Love Lords, and the . . . DR. BUCK: Stop it, I can't stand it. MR. SCHMID: All I'm saying, Mr.

Chairman, is that these are the items we rejected. The Board of Cen­ sors at least tries to categorize and/or censor movies according to, as they say, the accepted community standards. Sometimes of course, as has happened in the last two cases, the board loses out. A charge is laid against the exhibitor of a certain film, and the film is then shown because the court's decision is the same and/or otherwise as the person who laid the charge. Again of course, Mr. Chairman, I think the possibili­ ty of introducing a private member's bill to discuss this point fully would be in order.

It would give us the opportunity to find out whether or not we really want to have a direction taken which would require a cer­ tain percentage of films shown in the province of Alberta to be family entertainment. Maybe it should be mentioned — it is probably known generally — that of course the largest number of viewers in a theatre are younger people. Because of that, maybe we should pay special concern to what's being exhibited in the theatres of Alberta. As far as Dunvegan is concerned, Mr.

Chairman, all I can state is that when certain artifacts were removed, one probably should have considered the fact that once people donate items to a museum, they feel the whole museum is part and parcel of their heritage. Therefore the people should have been in­ formed, at least, that these items were being removed because they were not part of the

interpretation of the Dunvegan historic site. However, I can assure the hon. member I have instructed my staff that in the future nothing shall be done with any site, with any museum, unless the feelings of the people are con­ sidered first and most of all. Then if necessary, an exhibit [could] probably be rearranged so it's more meaningful for a specific site, at the same time not injuring the feelings of the people who live there, who have contributed to the area, and therefore are very much entitled to have their considerations taken into account. As far as the future development of the site is concerned, Mr.

Chairman, I would not be able to state specifically on that right now. Because as the hon. member may know, in the overall development of that area — whether it be the dam that has been looked into, whether it's the requirements we asked for under The Alberta [Historical] Resources Act — we would have to protect certain archaeological findings as well as historic sites. All these things are present­

922 ALBERTA HANSARD. April 22, 1977 ly being considered. As soon as I have a full report I will inform the hon. member of our plans and/or disposition of the concerns we in Alberta Culture presently have. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member for Lethbridge West. Did you wish to . . . MR. GOGO: Well I didn't. But I will, Mr. Chairman, now that I have the opportunity. MR. CHAIRMAN: You had your hand up, Mr. Member. MR. GOGO: I would certainly hope, Mr.

Chairman and members of the Assembly, that those people who feel that strongly about censorship and the showing of certain types of movies have inadvertently satisfied many people in Alberta. As a lobbyist around the House for the film industry, they've achieved their objective by naming certain movies. Now the people of Alberta will go out in droves. I hope they're satis­ fied they've achieved that objective. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, I think it would have been better if you hadn't called the name of the Member for Lethbridge West. MR. NOTLEY: His learned dissertation. MR.

CLARK: I'd like to make comments in three areas, and ask the minister two or three questions. First of all, this question of censorship. As has been well set out in the House here today, it's indeed a difficult and an extremely tough area. Might I simply say that while it's easy for us to lay the blame on the television or the movie industry, to a very great degree — and I say this regrettably — they are appealing to society in some of its worst forms today. If they couldn't make money by doing what they're doing, we wouldn't have some of the problems we do.

I have a young family myself and I'm not home that much, but I must say that it's extremely difficult — just what they see on television, let alone some of the movie options that are open. I just want to make one point in this area: we can talk about legislating, talk about making a lot of changes I'm sure a lot of people would want us to. Having a young family I have some strong feelings in that area too.

But all of us as legislators, parents, and people in the province — some of the responsibility has to rest on our own particular attitudes, tastes, our own families, and what we establish as our own priorities regardless of where we may sit in this House. This whole area of censorship is indeed difficult and, as one hon. mem­ ber said, someone ends up playing "God". While that kind of thing starts out with the very best of inten­ tions, it is fraught with problems, as history points out. Mr. Minister, the second area I'd like to comment on very briefly is the question of the grants made by your department.

When you were minister of the former department the question was asked of you: were grants listed on the basis of constituencies? You indicated to us that grants were not listed on that basis. Yet in the course of the trial that has just finished, it has been clearly pointed out by people who were officials of the department — or who may be still, I don't know — or the Auditor's office, that in fact the list of grants was kept on a constituency basis. Mr. Minister, having regard for the fact that you're still a minister in this particular area, I think the logic behind that should be explained to the Assembly.

Also, I'd like to know if you're still keeping a list of grants on a constituency basis. Thirdly, when I recall the Auditor's report, one of the comments made by the Provincial Auditor in his investigation was that there was a by-passing of senior personnel in the department. In the opinion of the Auditor at least that was a portion of the problem: the normal administrative procedures had broken down. Mr. Minister, I would want some assurance from you today that there is presently no by-passing of senior officials in your department.

If I understand the Auditor's report accurately, what really happened — and I'm sure the minister will correct me if I'm wrong — was that a system was developed, for whatever reasons, whereby some officials in the de­ partment were by-passing the assistant, associate, or deputy minister — or whatever places were involved at the time. I think it's important that we have some kind of assurance from you that that kind of thing is not happening today, Mr. Minister.

Fourthly, I'd be very interested in knowing if you have discussed the financial procedures in your de­ partment with the Provincial Auditor, let's say in the last six months. Is he satisfied that things are in better than first-class position? I think that kind of assurance would be very worth while for the Assem­ bly. If the minister hasn't done that, I think that would be just an excellent procedure for him to follow and be able to report to the Assembly in the fall sittings this year that yes, he has talked to the Audi­ tor, and he has once again reviewed the whole finan­ cial operation within the area.

I think that would make your position much stronger, Mr. Minister, also the senior people in the department, and the taxpayer at large. I think it's a reasonable proposition and I'd be interested to know if it's been done. If it hasn't, do you plan to do it? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the hon. Leader of the Opposition for his remarks. First of all, the constituency listing: at the time I was asked I probably said, to my knowledge there is no such listing because I didn't ask for such a listing.

The way I understand it, the reason that constituency listing came about in that particular case was because it was a matter, not of political constituency as such, but where there were higher pockets of unemploy­ ment than in other areas of Alberta. So, I guess because they had for some reason or other the con­ cern that in the constituencies of northeast Alberta unemployment is higher than in let's say the south­ ern part, that's probably how they looked at that disposal, as far as constituency lists are concerned.

Again, at present I have not asked for and I hope — at least, I don't think — my department keeps constitu­ ency lists. What we do of course keep is a listing of when grants are being paid. If someone asks, for instance, how much has been paid in grants to a certain area in the performing arts, we keep a break­ down along that line. But definitely not a breakdown as far as constituencies are concerned. As far as the hon. member's second question was concerned, our grant system now requires that the

April 22, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 923 grant requisition form — which usually is accom­ panied by background material, which wasn't always the case before — bear the signature, first of all, of the proposing division or branch, then the assistant deputy minister, the deputy minister. Then, recom­ mended by all these people, it is sent to the minister for approval.

As far as the Auditor is concerned, it's of course quite natural that the people who were involved at the time in getting the financial administration of the former special programs division in Culture, Youth and Recreation straightened out sat down with peo­ ple from the Auditor's department. In fact quite fre­ quently now I or my deputy minister have consulted with the Auditor in cases where we weren't quite sure of the, how should I say, procedures and/or if the procedures were in accordance with regulations and The Cultural Development Act for that matter.

I could say that we are on a continuous consulting basis with the Provincial Auditor, to make sure any steps we are taking as far as grant approval or administration of our financial undertakings are con­ cerned, are by the correct procedure as far as the Auditor is concerned. In the meantime, I understand the Auditor or his staff have been to our department, on different occasions and have provided a report. Of course, things that were found that should have been even more tightened up, have been.

Therefore I can tell the Leader of the Opposition that we are in continuous consultation with the Provincial Auditor. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I might pursue one area a little further, then ask another question. Mr. Minister, I have a little difficulty with your explanation of why the lists of grants for constituen­ cies were kept. If I recall, the one that really caused the initial problem was in Edmonton Glenora. Now Edmonton Glenora is not really an area of high unemployment, with great respect to the incumbent member. That's where your explanation breaks down somewhat, Mr. Minister.

I can see why you would have regions set out where there is high unemploy­ ment. But if my recollection is correct, in 1975 Edmonton Glenora wasn't an area of high unem­ ployment in Alberta, by any stretch of the imagina­ tion. In fact, it would likely be said by some people that it was one of the better-off areas of the city of Edmonton. MR. NOTLEY: I call it the silk stocking area. MR. CLARK: Well, I would say at least one member in the House would likely refer to it in those terms. So, Mr. Minister, I'd like a little more elaboration in that particular area.

That explanation as far as a list of grants to constituencies is concerned simply doesn't wash. Mr. Chairman, the second point to the minister. With regard to the applications made under the capi­ tal recreation program of your colleague the Minister of Recreation, Parks and Wildlife — I'm not sure of the exact terminology, but the minister knows the program — one complaint brought to my attention repeatedly is the long period of time it takes for approval to come from the minister's office. Unfortu­ nately my colleague the Member for Little Bow isn't here today.

We could keep the estimates going until 1 o'clock and he will be here Monday. Hopefully that won't be necessary. But he has expressed a very real concern with regard to one particular situation in his riding. I've had other recreation boards across the province say it takes two, three, or four months for the approval to get through the minister's office. Now approving cheques and that kind of thing is not the responsibility of the minister's office. I am at a loss to understand why a number of applications take that long. I can certainly appreciate it could take a longer time on a case where there are problems.

But I would think two to four weeks might be the kind of target the minister should be shooting at. I've asked rather earnestly. I've found very few communi­ ties that have been able to get that kind of response from the culture people in the minister's department. It sits on this or that person's desk. You know, that just isn't good enough. We're dealing with volun­ teers at the local level, and every day we hold up these cheques means that a lot of communities end up paying more interest. So, Mr.

Minister, I'd like you to go back and try to be more convincing as far as the reasoning for the listing of the grants is concerned, having regard for the employment situation in Edmonton Glenora, then give us some explanation as to the long time it's taking the Culture people to approve. MR. SCHMID: First of all, Mr. Chairman, naturally once a list according to constituencies was establish­ ed in that specific area, of course I suppose all the constituencies would be listed. If Edmonton Glenora was one of them, it would be listed because of that, not because of . . . [interjection] I beg your pardon? MR.

CLARK: Why was it approved? MR. SCHMID: The list didn't need an approval. If someone in a department sets up a list according to each constituency, I don't think it needs any approval, Mr. Chairman. If I go back to the major cultural/recreation facility program, Mr. Chairman, we analysed one particular case of the hon. member directly because I was very concerned myself. Since the hon. Leader of the Opposition referred to the minister's office, I am happy to state it was in the office for three days out of the entire time it was in processing, and that's all.

Also I would have to state that what actually hap­ pened was that the most serious delay was when it was sent from Alberta Culture back to a certain person we have specified. By the way, I'd be pleased to submit the detail of the days to the hon. member from there; where it was and so on, because I have that breakdown. I'm afraid it took 41 days to get a reply from there to Alberta Culture on some questions we had. So all I can say is this, Mr. Chairman: once an application for a major cultural/recreation facility support comes to the government, it goes first to Recreation, Parks and Wildlife.

If there's a compo­ nent that refers to a cultural endeavor, then of course that is passed on to us. Sometimes, and in fact probably quite often, we have to ask again if there are certain plans if, for instance, we are assured that this facility is really going to be used for cultural activity. Then of course we have to go back, as we did in that case, to the person involved. It took 41 days to get a reply, and we had to write back again. So that's

924 ALBERTA HANSARD April 22, 1977 where the delays are, Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member would appreciate it in fact. When we find out the cause of a problem, we can improve our own system as well. I'm quite sure — in fact I know — that the question that was asked regarding the long delay of the program down south has helped us to realize where we could have followed up by phoning and asking the person why we are not getting the reply we need to speed up the application approval procedure.

If the hon. member has any other com­ munity come to him or any other members of his caucus, I would appreciate having that pointed out to me so we can follow up what may have happened or is happening in cases where there is a delay. That's the best I can say at present, Mr. Chairman. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, just following that up. Mr. Minister, I was just going to point out to you that there's an organization known as Alberta Govern­ ment Telephones in this province. It isn't a one-way kind of thing when people phone in to your depart­ ment for approval. The same comments can be made to your colleague.

Those telephones go the other way, too. I just find the 41-day thing very, very diffi­ cult to understand. Mr. Minister, when you say "the person involved down there", are you talking in terms of the local recreation board, someone involved in the local rec­ reation board, or an official from one of the govern­ ment departments? MR. SCHMID: The local recreation board, Mr. Chairman. MR. CLARK: Local recreation board. All right, we'll follow up that point of view.

The other question the minister didn't really an­ swer is: what kind of time frame do you consider reasonable for these applications to go through your department? Surely you've given your people some kind of time frame. Is it two weeks, a month? What target have you given to your people for how long it should be from the day it comes in, assuming there are no problems with it, until it's approved? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, maybe I should add, which I didn't do before, we only had two persons on staff who were able to look at that program because of the restrictions in staff hiring, which I accept.

We have finally been able to recruit a man in charge of that program, as far as Alberta Culture is concerned. That of course should improve that position. Mr. Chairman, I can also say my impatience with getting any decision asked of the government out to the people as fast as possible is known. Having worked for 20 years in community work before I got into politics, I know how tough it is for a volunteer to sit out there not knowing what is going on.

I would say that a time frame of even one month for a voluntary agency is sometimes [too] long, because the people out there lose the interest to collect additional money or are unable to collect additional money, because of that delay. So, Mr. Chairman, I would say the time frame of one month that the Leader of the Opposition has mentioned is about the longest I could possibly accept. If it is any longer than that, my people know they would have to inform me of the delay and the reasons for [it] because of the other one that was caused [by] of the non-approval of that application for such a length of time. MR.

TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I just have one or two comments in connection with censorship. I personal­ ly don't favor censorship for adults. I think we have a literate society. I think our people are well able to make up their own minds. But I do favor a definite classification, because when a man is taking his wife, sister, mother, or another adult to a theatre, I think he's entitled to have some indication of what type of show that is. I would like to see the classification improved.

Another thing: I notice that in front of the theatres in some provinces you can look at the picture and see immediately what type of show it is, whether it's a horror show or highly sexual or a family show and so on. In this province, you don't see that. As a matter of fact, it's difficult to see the rating of the show even by looking at the billboards in front of the show. In discussing this with one of the managers of the theatres, he said they're not required to do that. I would like to see the minister take a look at having some place outside a theatre to indicate the type of show that's on at the time.

I think this would be a big benefit. Some people may say, everybody looks at the paper first. But everybody doesn't. Many in the downtown area go from show to show until they see one they like. Many do look at the paper, but I think it would be a distinct advantage if we knew outside the theatre what classification the show was, and that shouldn't be difficult or expensive for the theatres to carry out. I say I believe in classification rather than censor­ ship, and I do. But there's an exception. I certainly believe in censorship when it comes to minors.

Growing boys and girls should not be subjected to a lot of the filth we see in theatres today. If an adult wants to go to that type of thing, I say it's his privi­ lege. It's a free country, and he can do his own thinking. But I certainly don't think it should be made available to growing boys and girls. The classification definitely comes in if a parent can see what type of show it is before he takes his son or daughter to one of these theatres. The same thing applies for these simulated games in arcades.

I mentioned the other day where the fellow gets his kick by seeing how many simulated pedestrians he can kill. I understand from the Ed­ monton Report — I haven't had a chance to see it yet — that apparently one of the two places in this city that had those has removed it. I certainly congratu­ late that place. There's enough horror, enough deaths on our highways, without teaching our boys and girls through games how best to kill pedestrians. We can do without that kind of entertainment. But my main point is that I think we should tighten our classification for adults rather than trying to tigh­ ten censorship.

MR. SCHMID: Mr. Chairman, maybe I should state in reply that I'm rather amazed that a theatre owner would have said he doesn't have to display what kind of movie it is. If I recollect — I'm not sure whether it's a regulation or a directive still in force from the former government, in fact — they have to display what kind of movie it is. I can assure the hon. member that next week I will send a letter to each

April 22, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 925 theatre owner, through the censor board, and tell them they have to adhere to this very regulation. If they don't, of course we would have to take appropri­ ate steps. I thank the hon. member for bringing that to my attention. I'm sure it's negligence on the part of the theatre owner, rather than saying this is not in force. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Chairman, certainly many inter­ esting items have come up regarding this item of family movies versus restricted and adult movies. I would like to thank the minister for his encourage­ ment.

I will reintroduce that bill on family movies in the next week or two. But the point I would like to make is that in reintroducing this bill, I hope all the hon. members who have spoken on this, and those who have not spoken, will canvass their various communities and ask the movie-makers what per­ centage of family movies, adult movies, and restricted adult movies they can really live with; for that matter, canvass some of their constituents and see what they feel about it. Mr. Chairman, I hope the media is recording some of these items today.

In fact they can play a role by recording this in the press and in the media, to ask individuals in the community and, for that matter, movie-makers to write in their comments, so at least I can strike a proper balance when I introduce this bill. Finally, Mr. Chairman, be it clear from my point of view and I appreciate the comments from the hon. Member for Drumheller — this is not censorship. We have a censor board to categorize the various movies. But what I'm suggesting here is an insistence that a percentage of the movies shall be family movies, restricted adult, and adult, and that famil