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April

7, 2014

SOCIAL

SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Lorraine Michael, MHA for Signal Hill Quidi

Vidi substitutes for Gerry Rogers, MHA for St. John's Centre.

The Committee met at 6:00 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Littlejohn):

Good evening, everyone.

Welcome to the Social Services Committee of Estimates.

This evening our Estimates Committee will be reviewing the Estimates of

the Department of Education. I will

take this opportunity on behalf of the Committee, Minister, to welcome you and

your staff to Estimates this evening.

What I will do, prior to going to you, Minister, I am going to ask the members

of the Estimates Committee and their staff to introduce themselves.

Then we will go to the minister, and I will ask the minister to do the

same.

Mr. Kirby.

MR. KIRBY:

Dale Kirby, MHA for St. John's North.

MS PLOUGHMAN:

Good evening, Kim Ploughman, Liberal Researcher.

MS MICHAEL:

Lorraine Michael, MHA for Signal Hill Quidi Vidi.

MS WILLIAMS:

Susan Williams, NDP Researcher.

MR. LITTLE:

Glen Little, MHA for Bonavista South.

MR. CORNECT:

Tony Cornect, MHA for the beautiful, great cultural District of Port au Port.

MR. POLLARD:

Kevin Pollard, MHA for Baie Verte Springdale District.

MS DEMPSTER:

Lisa Dempster, MHA for Cartwright L'Anse au Clair.

CHAIR:

Minister, welcome.

Minister, I will ask you to introduce your staff first and then you have fifteen

minutes for opening remarks. Once

your remarks are concluded, I will give Mr. Kirby the first fifteen minutes,

after that Ms Michael, ten and ten.

We will give some grace if we are in the middle of something and there is a

follow-up question or something like that.

In the interest of our friends at the Broadcast Centre there is only one at

the Broadcast Centre tonight at 7:30 if we are not finished, which I do not

expect we will be, we are going to take about a five minute break so the staff

at the Broadcast Centre can have a little bit of break and attend to their needs

as well. If everybody is in

agreement with that, I thank you.

Minister Jackman.

MR. JACKMAN:

Thank you.

Clyde Jackman, Minister of Education, and MHA for the District of Burin

Placentia West.

I am going to get my staff to introduce themselves.

All they have to remember is wait for the red light to come on and then

you can speak.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Janet Vivian-Walsh, Deputy Minister.

MS MORRIS:

Joan Morris, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services.

MS CLARKE:

Ingrid Clarke, ADM, Infrastructure.

MS MAY:

Heather May, Director of Communications.

MR. WALSH:

Ed Walsh, Assistant Deputy Minister, Primary, Elementary and Secondary.

MR. ANTLE:

Sheldon Antle, Executive Assistant.

MR. STAPLETON:

Don Stapleton, Departmental Controller.

CHAIR:

I am Glenn Littlejohn, Chair of the Committee.

I am the MHA for Port de Grave.

Minister Jackman, for your opening remarks, sir.

MR. JACKMAN:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In the interest of moving proceedings along, I am going to keep my comments

brief. I made a fair number of

statements about our investment this year and I will continue to do that.

I have to say, I am proud of our investments that we have made in Education in

this year's budget; everything from full-day Kindergarten to school

infrastructure, teaching resources, student assistants and more.

I think equally as important, I am very proud and pleased with the legacy

that we have since 2003.

When we look at it, we have a more generous teacher allocation model, as an

example. I do not know if people

know it or not, but there are 265 more teachers in the system today relative to

student enrolment than there was in 2007.

We have allocated over $681 million in infrastructure.

We have thirteen new schools; we have nine more on the way.

We have twenty-six major extensions or redevelopments.

We have eight more schools that are in progress, and one of them in your

district, Mr. Chair.

We have $56 million to eliminate standard school fees and $21 million to extend

pre-textbooks for all Kindergarten to Grade XII students.

While we say that statement, when we were getting ready for Estimates

today I looked at a list that we have on the cost of books now.

I think it would just simply blow people's minds away at the expense and

the cost of these books and the cost that parents would incur if they had to

purchase them.

I think back to that, when we announced those types of things, these were the

things we were certainly hearing from the parent community, that this was an

expense on parents. I can remember

being in the school myself, and I am sure Janet, my deputy, can remember, and

Mr. Walsh who came in as a principal, that every September it was a heavy demand

on parents getting students ready for school.

To say that we have eliminated

textbooks and fees, that will be one of the proudest parts of our legacy in K-12

education.

The Cultural Connections Strategy is $18.7 million now with programming, and

that did not exist before 2005. You

can go into any classrooms now and you see the interactive white boards, and the

computers, and the iPads. We

recognize that we are moving more towards technology.

I was at a school in Mount Pearl a little while ago, I passed by a door and this

little one, a Grade I student was out on a little break and I saw him there with

his iPad. While we have to be very

conscious of keeping students active, we also have to be aware that the future

of education, certainly technology is going to be a large part of that.

Go into any school and new schools that are being built, and take a look

at the skilled trades rooms that are in place.

Our overall Education budget has increased by 48 per cent, despite a 17.5 per

cent reduction in enrolment. This

is one of the facts that I am very proud of, our per-pupil investment has

increased by 75 per cent. We have

gone from $7,400 in 2003 to $13,000 in 2014.

Now those are numbers, but when you put it in comparison, our per-pupil

ratio is the best in all of Atlantic Canada so, again, our commitment to

education.

My final point is that folks who are around me, I have been into this portfolio

now since 2011, and these are the folks I work with on a daily basis.

Our department is large but oftentimes I do not get to interact with the

rest of the staff, certainly as much as I do with these people, and I would put

these folks up against anywhere in the world in terms of their abilities, and I

think more so in terms of their interest in education and our youth.

So, sir, I will conclude my comments there, and we will move on into our

Estimates.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Just for the interest of Committee members, in the Budget Estimates book we are

starting at page 15.3, Minister's Office.

I will ask the Clerk to call the first subhead, please.

CLERK (Ms Barnes):

Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

Dale.

MR. KIRBY:

Under Transportation and Communications, how much of that is transportation and

how much of that is communications?

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, I do not know if we would we have the breakdown for that?

OFFICIAL:

We can get that.

MR. JACKMAN:

Okay.

One of the things that drove the cost up a bit this year and you or Joan can

speak to some of that or we can give him the breakdown.

The Canadian Council of Ministers has a meeting every year.

This coming July it is in PEI.

This past year it was in Iqaluit; therefore, the cost of getting to

Iqaluit compared to PEI is different and that is one of the results in driving

that item up.

MR. KIRBY:

That is CMEC, is it?

MR. JACKMAN:

CMEC, yes and I do not know, Joan or Janet, if you want to speak to

specifically what was asked there.

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Approximately $3,000 for communications.

CHAIR:

Dale, when you are doing your reference, can you just reference the number just

so we can all follow along with you, please.

MR. KIRBY:

Sure.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

MR. KIRBY:

It is the same one. Does that

include staff expenses as well for transportation and/or communications?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, that would include my secretarial staff, my CA, and my EA.

CHAIR:

Dale.

MR. KIRBY:

Your constituency assistant?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

Or your communications assistant, is that what it is?

MR. JACKMAN:

It would be my

MR. KIRBY:

Communication staff, not constituency assistant.

MR. JACKMAN:

Mine, my EA, and my secretary.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

This line for Minister's Office wherever it is, I do not know if it is here or

not, so I will just ask the question more generally.

Is there any expenditure for polling in either this page or the

subsequent page? Has the minister's

office conducted any public opinion polling in the last year?

MR. JACKMAN: N o.

MR. KIRBY:

The amount for Purchased Services here, can you explain the nature?

MR. JACKMAN:

From $2,700 to $700?

MR. KIRBY:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

We juggled some around for services.

We did not have as much purchased services so that expenditure was put

towards the travel costs, the $48,800.

MR. KIRBY:

What was purchased for $700?

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

That could be a variety of things.

I could give you the breakdown. I

cannot give you the exact breakdown right here, but it could be from purchased

services anything from

some printing, some advertising when school opens sometimes, and those kinds of

things.

If you need an itemized breakdown, Mr. Kirby, we can provide it.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

MR. JACKMAN:

I might even include a set of pens.

MR. KIRBY:

If we go to the next one, 1.2.01.01, Salaries.

There was a slight increase.

MR. JACKMAN:

Those are signing bonuses for eight individuals.

MR. KIRBY:

A signing bonus?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, from $827 to $867. The next

line there is that there was a Manger of Communications hired that is in line

with other departments.

MR. KIRBY:

Why would the Department of Education be providing a signing bonus for hiring?

MR. JACKMAN:

This is the collective agreement.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

That is part of the collective bargaining increases.

MR. KIRBY:

Oh, I see.

MR. JACKMAN:

The $1,400.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

That is right, the $1,400.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay, I get it now.

Did anyone retire from this staff complement in the last year?

MR. JACKMAN:

Not from this particular section.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

The Director of Communications is listed here and not in the Minister's Office,

right?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

Is there a particular reason why that staff person is listed here and not in the

previous item?

MR. JACKMAN:

Up under Minister's Office?

MR. KIRBY:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

It is Executive Support.

MR. KIRBY:

We have under there for the Transportation and Communications how much is

transportation and how much is communications, roughly?

MR. JACKMAN:

I do not have that exactly written down here, but we can certainly find it.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

We will provide that, Mr. Kirby. I

do not have that right in front of me, but we certainly can provide that.

MR. KIRBY:

That is all the ten people that this line covers spent on transportation and

communications for the area?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

That is correct.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Just one point, Mr. Chair, please?

CHAIR:

Yes.

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL:

Could we establish at the beginning that any request that is made, the

information then gets sent to all parties?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, not a problem.

MS MICHAEL:

Thank you.

MR. KIRBY:

What was the $5,000 expenditure under Purchased Services?

CHAIR:

Subhead 1.2.01.

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

That could be a multitude of things in terms of a rental for a space for the

staff professional development. It

could be some promotional things.

It could be advertising. It could

be a multitude of things including the printing as well.

I will have to provide that as well

for you, Mr. Kirby.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

The next page, under General Administration, Administrative Support, 2.1.01.01,

Salaries, we have an increase there again.

MR. JACKMAN:

There were some retirement-related costs like severance for two employees and

there was a signing bonus for twenty-five employees.

MR. KIRBY:

Was there anyone new hired?

MR. JACKMAN:

No.

MR. KIRBY:

Then there was a larger Transportation and Communications well, it is far

larger here than it is for the combined expenditure for ministers

MR. JACKMAN:

Are you looking at the $289,000 or the $192,000?

MR. KIRBY:

Well, I mean with $311,300.

MR. JACKMAN:

That is what was budgeted.

MR. KIRBY:

That is what was budgeted here.

MR. JACKMAN:

The actual was $192,000. There was

certainly less travel.

MR. KIRBY:

There are sixteen positions under this one, right?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Postage would be about $223,000.

MR. KIRBY:

For postage?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Yes. That would be associated with

perhaps teachers' payroll which is a very large payroll.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

So a lot on communications then?

MR. JACKMAN:

It was what?

MR. KIRBY:

A lot on communications as opposed to transportation?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

Then are there any details about purchased services here, or is that the same as

the previous two?

MR. JACKMAN:

You want the same as you did

MR. KIRBY:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Printing and advertising would be part of that.

There could be some other things in rental spaces and photocopiers.

MR. KIRBY:

So printing like ads in The Telegram ,

advertising

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Departmental printing.

MR. KIRBY:

Then advertising in the newspapers, Transcontinental is that the sort of

advertising we are talking about?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Advertising for the opening and closing of schools and for supplementary exams,

those kinds of advertising.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

Grants and Subsidies, which organizations would receive grants and/or subsidies

through this $45,000 listed there?

MR. JACKMAN:

Oftentimes we will get some requests for something outside of an ordinary

program, so it is

MR. KIRBY:

Okay, sort of a discretionary

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, sort of.

MR. KIRBY:

There was a projection that there would be $80,000 in revenue, but that only

came at $18,500.

MR. JACKMAN:

It is anticipated that number that we have there, and sometimes there might be

overpayments for something. So

those would be costs that would be asked for and returned.

Right now there are better controls, and there are less overpayments happening.

These could be anything, like leave codes where someone might have gotten

paid incorrectly or something and then you have to ask for it back.

Like I said, because of stricter measures and I think more accountability

at the department, there is less of that happening, thus the number is down.

MR. KIRBY:

The projection for the coming year for this budget is the same as what it was

before.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, I suppose we could have lowered it, but we put it as an anticipated cost

more than anything.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

The next one is 2.1.02, Assistance to Educational Agencies and Advisory

Committees. Am I to assume there

are quite a number of groups getting would this be where

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes there are. That is funding for

CMEC, which is the Council of Ministers of Education, Canada; Council of

Atlantic Ministers of Education and Training; Federation of School Councils;

Cultural Connections; T.I. Murphy.

That is just a few of them there but we can certainly give you the entire list.

MR. KIRBY:

We can get a list of the various groups and the amounts of funding?

MR. JACKMAN:

Encounters with Canada is another one.

MR. KIRBY:

Have any of those groups had their funding reduced in this budget?

MR. JACKMAN:

No.

MR. KIRBY:

A number of them did last year.

Does this cover any committees that would be established internally or these are

all organizations entirely external from the Department of Education?

MR. JACKMAN:

These are all groups, yes.

MR. KIRBY:

One of the requests from the Federation of School Councils this year was for a

parental involvement pilot project.

It was $25,000 for fifty school councils, $500 each to increase parental

involvement. Was this considered?

That was part of the pre-budget consultation.

Was there any particular reason why the department decided not to?

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, in addition to this $25,000, we provided them with $5,000 to help with

their convention this past weekend.

I have indicated to the council, when they had this one I requested that they

submit what their attendance was at their convention.

I am more than interested in looking at where we go with the council.

MR. KIRBY:

language board there seemed to be a commitment to try and engage with

communities more through the Federation of School Councils but there does not

appear to be anything additional in this budget for that.

Is there anything under consideration for the future?

MR. JACKMAN:

Like I said, I have indicated to them based on a go-forward basis to see where

the number of school councils has not changed from what it was last year.

We will just gauge that on a go-forward basis.

MR. KIRBY:

The number of school councils has not increased, or is that ?

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, if there has been a closure of a school there would be one less, but there

has not been a drastic change in the number of school councils that exist

provincially through the consolidation of school boards.

MR. KIRBY:

I know what you are saying. I guess

my question is more

CHAIR:

Dale, your time has expired. Do you

want to hold it there or do you have a concluding question?

MR. KIRBY:

Yes, we can come back later. That

is fine.

CHAIR:

We can come back, okay.

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL:

I think what I will do before I go into a line item is it might be continuing

a little bit what Mr. Kirby was doing there.

It is a broader one, I guess.

Since we have been through Executive and we are into Corporate Services, it

seems the place to ask this question rather than doing all the line items and

then coming back. With the change

of whichever tense should be used there.

Are you thinking about putting in place a whole process for evaluating

this whole change? Because it seems

to me that to evaluate it you almost need to set that right up at the beginning

in terms of the process, like who is in charge of it, what needs to be evaluated

as we go down the road with this new system.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, certainly. The people who are

in charge but to say there is an administrative process in place now to do the

overall assessment, there is not a group that is identified to do that, but we

have our school board trustees that are in place.

I have total confidence in the board, from the CEO down.

We are not through a full year yet until August, but you will certainly

be doing a I do not know if there will be a formal review, but there will

certainly be discussion with these people to see where there may be areas that

we might have to revisit. There

might be areas where we may even be able to look a little bit further, but we

are not through a year yet.

MS MICHAEL:

In doing that, would you then be reaching out to groups like the school councils

to help in that kind of assessment and evaluation?

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, I do not have to reach out to some groups because they provide their

information quite readily and up front.

MS MICHAEL:

If you have an evaluation process in particular areas that you are going to want

to look at. Would you not want to

identify those areas, not just assume that you are going to get information that

you need?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Having more of a structured way of gathering information, say, from the school

councils.

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, certainly the school councils is one group, there is no doubt about it,

but our administrators at the office here in St. John's, plus those who operate

in the regional centres, are certainly working day in and day out on the ground.

They will be providing us with what they see are the needs.

I will certainly discuss it with our staff as to how we might be able to seek

further engagement from other groups out there.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, just let me see now where we are.

That was 2.1.02, right?

CHAIR:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Which means the next one is

CHAIR:

Subhead 2.1.03, Policy and Planning, Ms Michael, would be the next one.

MS MICHAEL:

I skipped a page too quickly, that is what happened.

Thank you very much.

That is where we are: 2.1.03. I

guess I have one major question here and that would be under Professional

Services where no money was required from Professional Services in the past

year. What was that about?

MR. JACKMAN:

We were planning on doing a review of our library services.

MS MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

That did not go ahead, but recently we just had a meeting with the library board

and we are reconsidering taking a look at that.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay. I may have more questions

about that when we come to another

section that includes the libraries.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, I think that is all I have there.

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible).

MS MICHAEL:

Oh, right. A policy question here

could you give us an update, Minister, on the Strategic Adult Literacy Plan,

where things are with that?

MR. JACKMAN:

The adult?

MS MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

That would be with AES.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, not here, that is what I thought.

Thank you.

Moving over then to 2.2.01, under the salary line there was an over expenditure

from the budget in Salaries in the past year.

What was that about?

MR. JACKMAN:

That is a salary continuance for one of the employees totaling $51,000 and the

signing bonus for eight employees.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, great. Thank you very much.

I do not see anything else there in a big way.

I do have a question, though.

First of all, under 01, Revenue, what is the money that comes from the

federal government?

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, we had it budgeted there for $425,300.

The federal government did change some of its funding this year.

It is $11,300 less.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay.

MR. JACKMAN:

They are still funding the youth initiative.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay. It is not a partnership

they fund it totally?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you very much.

Minister, I am wondering, with regard to the full-day Kindergarten and I am

delighted that we are going to have the full-day Kindergarten

MR. JACKMAN:

Are you going to say that in the House tomorrow?

MS MICHAEL:

I said it already today, actually, if you had heard my first speech to the

Budget.

MR. JACKMAN:

Thank you.

MS MICHAEL:

I said a little bit more I would like an Early Childhood Education plan that

includes that plus child care, but you will have to read Hansard to see what I

said.

I also said that I am curious about because I heard you say, and if I am

wrong, you can tell me

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

and I cannot remember which time it was, but I thought you did say that there

were a number of schools that could have been ready for all-day Kindergarten.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, there is.

MS MICHAEL:

I think you said forty-three or something like that.

MR. JACKMAN:

There is about seventy or so.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay.

Why could that not

MR. JACKMAN:

No, I am sorry, there are about 100 or so that were ready

MS MICHAEL:

Oh, is it? Okay.

MR. JACKMAN:

and seventy or seventy-five that has to have some work done with them.

MS MICHAEL:

So why could we not phase this in and start it with schools that could have been

ready?

MR. JACKMAN:

We considered all of that, but we just made a decision that it is going to be

implemented all at the one time.

MS MICHAEL:

For no special reason, just, let us go that way?

MR. JACKMAN:

No. We decided that we would do it

universally.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay.

I disagree with that, but

MR. JACKMAN:

I know.

MS MICHAEL:

at least I have your answer.

MR. JACKMAN:

I could have tried and talked around it, but I knew I was not going to get

there.

MS MICHAEL:

The need is there, the need is identified, you have recognized it, and I say

there would have been a lot of parents who would have been quite happy to have

it started in September.

MR. JACKMAN:

Where we are finding the highest demand is in the more urban areas

MS MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

and that is where most of the work has to be done.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay. That answer makes sense to

me, see.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

All right, just checking and making sure I have no more questions under that.

Could you just give us some more detail about the status of the Youth Internship

Program?

MR. JACKMAN:

The

MS MICHAEL:

The Youth Internship Program.

CHAIR:

Joan.

MS MORRIS:

Funding there is to cover student employment.

Usually there is around sixty-five successful applicants every year for

that.

There are a number of eligible areas or groups, I should say, that

could apply for the funding. This

past year there was monies provided under that for a number of community

locations where students would assist in Internet connectivity and that kind of

thing at the local level, either at public library boards or community

organizations that were successful in receiving the grant.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, so sixty-five in all that is the total number?

MS MORRIS:

That is my understanding; yes, it was sixty-five.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, good.

In general, what are the qualifications that are required?

CHAIR:

Joan.

MS MORRIS:

I would certainly have to check on that, Ms Michael, but I would presume that

they would certainly have to have some technology background in terms of

assisting clients at the various sites in order to be able to access the

Internet and some rudimentary computer skills.

They are trying to, I guess, model appropriate usage of computer

technology.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

I can speak to that.

That is one of the qualifications that they have some technology experience.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you very much.

CHAIR:

Do you have a follow-up to that, Ms Michael?

MS MICHAEL:

No, I think I have come to the end of that, so I am ready to pass it over.

CHAIR:

Mr. Kirby.

MR. KIRBY:

I will just pick up where I left off back on 2.1.02.10, Grants and Subsidies.

What is the total amount of funding that was provided for the federation school

councils in this particular

MR. JACKMAN:

It is $25,000.

MR. KIRBY:

Just $25,000.

Is there something that you have in mind to implement to ensure that there is a

greater role for school councils and their input into what school (inaudible)

MR. JACKMAN:

I have attended two of their past sessions.

One of the things that I expressed a concern about is the number of

people who are attending. Most

schools in the Province have school councils, so one of the things that I did

ask this year is that I get a report on the number of attendees and then from

that we will have some further discussions and go.

The groups that I listed here, like the T.I. Murphy Centre, they are asking for

increases. Various groups ask for

various increases and then as we move into the Budget process next year, we will

make some determinations.

MR. KIRBY:

It seems to me, as a parent of a small child myself, that it would be rather

difficult to attend conferences out of town without some provision for child

care. I do know in my district

there are a number of parents who have involvement with the school councils at

the elementary school level who are single moms.

I am just wondering if there has been any thought given to providing some in

addition to the $5,000 that you provided for transportation to the Federation of

School Councils AGM whether it would make some sense to provide a certain amount

of money for the provision of child care.

Maybe that would enable parents to attend the AGM if that is the

department's concern.

MR. JACKMAN:

To be quite honest with you, we have not looked at that; however, like I said,

going in through another Budget year this will be a submission, no doubt, from

the Federation of School Councils just as it will be that I will get a

submission from the T.I. Murphy Centre and other groups around and we will make

a determination from there.

MR. KIRBY:

Does the department itself track how many active school councils there are at

the various schools across the Province?

Do you know in a given month or school year how many active school

councils we have had across the system?

MR. JACKMAN:

No. I certainly have not made it up

I can just make a summation that I know that the school councils in my

particular area are active, and I would assume that they are likewise across the

Province. That might be something

that the Federation of School Councils might want (inaudible).

MR. KIRBY:

Since last year, since this overture was made about having more active school

councils, have ministers or government members when they go out and do public

events and various sorts of outreach that government would do some people call

it photo opportunities. When

members of a government caucus are out doing that sort of work, are there

additional attempts made to meet?

Have there been, in the last year, attempts made to meet with school councils?

MR. JACKMAN:

I know that certainly in some cases that school councils have made

representation to there is no way in the world I can get around the Province

and meet with all school councils, but I know that I have met with some of them

in my area, I met with some in Mr. Littlejohn's area, with a variety of

interest. One of the things that I

found is that every area is not every area, but many areas have different

interests.

I do believe that the majority of school councils are (inaudible).

MR. KIRBY:

about what can be on the agenda for school councils that were talking about

expanding their involvement?

Because last year there was at least once issue with respect to school councils

speaking out on issues related to maintenance, buildings, conditions of grounds

and so on.

MR. JACKMAN:

My thought on it is that unless there are collective bargaining issues and that

type of thing, I would not see that being the role of school councils, but if

there are issues related to a particular school I think the school council

certainly should make representation

CHAIR:

Dale, I am going to try to come back on track.

MR. KIRBY:

I knew that.

CHAIR:

I want it a little bit related to Estimates.

I will give some parameter but with school councils, the minister has

answered how much money there is

MR. KIRBY:

I thought you would and I turned the page purposely to move on.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

MR. KIRBY:

You are welcome.

Sorry, Minister, when you were answering that question a little while back there

under Policy and Planning, 2.1.03.01, Salaries, did you say there were eight

full-time staff there?

MR. JACKMAN:

Heading 2.1.03, under Salaries?

MR. KIRBY:

Yes. Is that eight full-time staff?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, there was signing bonuses for five employees.

MR. KIRBY:

Five, was it? I thought you said

eight.

So that is all signing bonus?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, there was a maternity position for part of the year that was not filled but

as we move into the Estimates for 2014-2015 that has gone up because that

position is being filled again full-time.

MR. KIRBY:

There are salaries here for policy evaluation, but is also salary for that under

Executive Support as well.

MR. JACKMAN:

Which one are you looking at now?

MR. KIRBY:

There is salary in here for staffing for policy evaluation in this one we are

discussing, 2.1.03, Policy and Planning, Salaries, under General Administration,

but there is also a salary for policy evaluation under 1.2.01.01, that is

Salaries under Executive Support.

On page 15.3.

MR. JACKMAN:

On page 15.3.

MR. KIRBY:

There is Policy Evaluation under General Administration, Policy and Planning.

MR. JACKMAN:

I can see that. On 15.5 there is

Policy and Planning.

CHAIR:

Under Executive Support, Minister, in 1.2.01, Mr. Kirby is referring to.

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

In 1.2.01., that reference to evaluation of policies and objectives would be

more of a function of oversight of the Executive office.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

Under 2.1.03, Policy and Planning again, would there be funding in here for

advisory committees of some sort or an advisory committee?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

No.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

Under 2.2.01, Information Management and Special Projects, in response to a

question you said there was a salary continuance of $51,000.

Can you just elaborate on that, please?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, $51,934 and a signing bonus there for eight employees.

MR. KIRBY:

That $51,000 was not for one position, that was spread across, was it?

MR. JACKMAN:

That was for one employee.

MR. KIRBY:

What was the nature of that one?

MR. JACKMAN:

That is one of the individuals who were taken out last year through the Budget

exercise. Some people opted for a

package; others opted for salary continuance, so this is

MR. KIRBY:

I see what you are saying there, okay.

Purchased Services under the same heading there, what was going to be purchased

and was not purchased? There was

$28,900 budgeted but only $500 was spent.

MR. JACKMAN:

Purchased Services would be anything from printing to whatnot that was not

required, but I can tell you that $10,500 of that was transferred to the line,

Grants and Subsidies. When the CAP

sites closed there were forty-two of them and we needed $250 each to continue

that for April and May. So the

dollars was taken from there and provided it was not used for Purchased

Services; therefore, it was transferred down there.

MR. KIRBY:

It was used for what?

MR. JACKMAN:

Once the federal government cancelled the CAP site, Community Access Program.

MR. KIRBY:

Oh, okay.

CHAIR:

One more question, Dale, because your time has expired.

MR. KIRBY:

Sure.

Just out of curiosity, I got an e-mail the other day from a bunch of allied

youth delegates who were stranded in Gander due to weather and they were going

to get in touch with you to see if there was any travel

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, that was not handled through mine; that was handled through Minister Kent's

office. I think they were taken

care of, though.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay, thank you.

CHAIR:

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL:

Thank you.

Coming then to 3.1.01, Teaching Services

MR. JACKMAN:

Which section?

MS MICHAEL:

Subhead 3.1.01.

MR. JACKMAN:

Okay.

MS MICHAEL:

I think we finished 2.2.01.

Appropriations for the cost of teachers' salaries and associated employee

benefits, et cetera under the Grants and Subsidies, School Boards there is a

significant drop there, a decrease of $470,300.

Can you give us an understanding of that?

MR. JACKMAN:

Maybe you are better to speak to that one than I am.

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

There is a combination of things happening there, increases and decreases.

There would be increases due to the step increases and upgrading of

teachers that would give you approximately $2.3 million.

You would also have there we are maintaining our units this year, the

twenty-eight point five units. That

is included in that, $1.4 million.

There is some transfer of funds from Health and Community Services.

There are two treatment centres that will be opening one, in Paradise and

one in Grand Falls I think. Partial

amounts they are not up and running yet, but some of the training for the

teachers, so there was $125,000 there.

Then that is offset by the annualization of the budget savings from

Budget 2013.

The school year and the fiscal year, how they do not match up for example,

there would be months there about five-twelfths which would be a decrease of

$4.3 million offsetting all of the other increases that I have mentioned for a

final override, a decrease, of $470,300.

MS MICHAEL:

Do we have the number of exactly how many lost positions are involved here?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

There is no loss of positions in terms of are you talking teaching units?

MS MICHAEL:

Yes.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

We are retaining our teaching units of this year.

The annualization would have been involved in last year's Budget cuts

where the Budget cuts we only went from September the teaching units started

in September of last year, 2013, up to March, and then this would have covered

the April to August.

MS MICHAEL:

How many were lost last year?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

One hundred and forty-two, plus eighteen in decline 160.

MS MICHAEL:

What does that mean?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Pardon?

MS MICHAEL:

What does that mean, eighteen in decline?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Oh, every year we look at the overall enrolment and determine, based on decline,

how many units should come out of the system.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

This year would have been twenty-eight point five, so the eighteen that did come

out last year. This year we have

retained twenty-eight-and-a-half, yes.

MS MICHAEL:

You have retained those twenty-eight point five.

I got that, thanks. That was

going to be a question, but you have answered it before I had to ask it.

A concern that we have, and it is not just us, it is a concern that certainly I

have heard expressed by the NLTA, teachers have expressed it the Budget states

only seven point twenty-five units earmarked to assist schools with the new Safe

and Caring Schools Initiative. We

are hearing, because of the cuts last year and changes from last year that

administrators and teachers are really feeling stressed with regard to trying to

do everything that is demanded of them.

Now with the Safe and Caring Schools Initiative, which is a wonderful

initiative, but needs, I believe, and listening to those in the system, I even

more so believe, requires much more assistance than is being given.

Are you going to make changes? Are

you looking at the teacher allocation formula in the light of the increased

responsibilities? It seems to me

there is a tremendous overload, and having been a teacher myself and an

administrator, I just do not know how they are managing inside the system.

I really do not.

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, if I look at increased demand, we have increased demand because of the

broadening of the autism spectrum disorder.

We have increased demand because students are being diagnosed with other

disabilities. So, there are demands

on the education system; therefore, we have made certain decisions.

This year, in the Budget process, the number one request from school boards was

student assistant time and teaching units.

So, two of the things that were brought to the Budget process, we went

after. I have to be quite honest

with you that I came from the system too, only a little over ten years ago, and

my first priority would be to make sure that are schools are safe and that we do

indeed care. I would see that as a

responsibility. I know there are

demands. There will always be

demands on principals, but I am counting on them that they are carrying out that

duty and are indeed ensuring to the degree that we all can that our schools are

safe.

MS MICHAEL:

Well, I guess we are really going to have to disagree on this one

MR. JACKMAN:

There is no doubt about it.

MS MICHAEL:

You cannot just look at one thing.

It is such an accumulation of change with new demands, cuts in specialists,

everything. When you put it all

together, I really think that the people inside the system, the teachers and the

administrators, are suffering desperately from these drastic cuts that have been

made. I really do.

The Safe and Caring Schools Initiative, this is something that was taken

and laid on them they too want safe and caring schools, but they need

assistance in doing everything that is being demanded by the program itself.

The demand is high.

MR. JACKMAN:

I guess you and I could debate this back and forth

MS MICHAEL:

We will not do that, I know.

MR. JACKMAN:

We could do that. I think that even

twenty years ago, I attempted to provide safe and caring schools.

We have certainly moved more into addressing issues that have arisen

around bullying and I do not know if there is more violence in schools now then

there were, but I think our schools are handling quite well.

I can go back to you, as if we were in Question Period, our class caps,

that we have class sizes that you have heard me say this before, the best

student-teacher ratio in all of the provinces of Canada.

MS MICHAEL:

I am not getting into that discussion with you because I will be thrown out by

the Chair.

MR. JACKMAN:

Then two of us will go outside and we will continue our discussion out there.

MS MICHAEL:

We will duke it out outside? Okay,

we might have to do that, Sir.

Supports to deaf and hard of hearing students, which is under that list, when

you are saying supports are you meaning totally teaching units?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, what has happened there is that there were six units because we still have

students, with the closure of the School of the Deaf, who are still in our

system. There was six there.

It is reduced down to four.

We have students who have graduated, so that number can change.

As you know, you have students exiting school and you have some students

who are entering school.

This year the number of units went from six to four.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay.

This will be something else that I will not discuss now, but I think we are

going to have to have a meeting, Minister.

I am serious.

MR. JACKMAN:

Any time, Ms Michael, any time at all.

MS MICHAEL:

I think we are going to have to have a meeting because I have been hearing real

concerns about what is happening with the deaf students since they have been

included and the change in their

academic achievements. So it is a

broader issue, but I want to raise it here and I would like to sit and talk with

you about it.

MR. JACKMAN:

Definitely, my door is open to you.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you.

Under Employee Benefits, we are up a fair bit there, $907,500.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, it is primarily to actual employee benefits costs running through payroll.

That is the employer's share of Canada Pension, EI, and Group Insurance.

MS MICHAEL:

Sure. Okay, great.

I think those are all of the questions.

My time is up. Maybe Mr.

Kirby might have questions under that

section as well.

CHAIR:

Mr. Kirby.

MR. KIRBY:

Under Teaching Services, 3.1.01.10, Grants and Subsidies.

MR. JACKMAN:

Subhead 2.1.01 ?

CHAIR:

No, 3.1.01, Teaching Services, Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

I am sorry. Yes, okay.

MR. KIRBY:

Under Supports to Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students, I do not think the language

here has caught up with the times, but there are no teachers.

There are itinerant teachers, are there, that are included under here?

Is that what it is? Are

there itinerants that are covered under this line, itinerant, IRTs that work

with kids with

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

The four teachers you are talking about there, Mr. Kirby?

MR. KIRBY:

Yes, there are four.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

There are four teachers that are in the schools where the children are and they

are members of the school district.

They are hired by the school district.

MR. JACKMAN:

These are not teachers who

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

They stay in the school.

MR. JACKMAN:

They work with those

MR. KIRBY:

They are tied to four particular schools?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

They are tied to the school, yes.

MR. KIRBY:

These schools are where in the Province?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Gonzaga mostly, and I think MacDonald Drive, maybe.

There was one at Bishops College as well but I am not certain if that

student has graduated, but they would be at the school with the students.

These are separate from the hearing itinerants.

These are separate.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay. Are students with hearing

impairment steered toward those two schools in particular or is it just ?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

This was historically from the closure of the School for the Deaf.

These particular units, they started off with more than that when there

was a greater number. They have

reduced and actually were to be eliminated by this time, but we still have

students so we have retained the units.

These are specific to the school.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

They would not be steered to a specific school.

If we have a student who is in a rural part of the Province or something

then the services has to be provided.

It is as simple as that.

MR. KIRBY:

I am just wondering what those teachers with that degree of speciality,

experience, what they would be doing in the event that there were no children

with hearing impairments at Gonzaga.

MR. JACKMAN:

That is the thing about it, there were six there.

We have had a graduate, for example, so that is not required in that

particular school this year.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

Now we could have somebody who moves in from out-of-province into a particular

school, then a unit would have to be provided specific to that student need.

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

When there is an identification of a student such as that, the district handles

that by hiring a teacher for the deaf as well with that qualification, but these

in particular, these units referenced here, are more specific to those from the

School for the Deaf.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay. Can you please remind me

again what the institutional schools in the Province are?

There are just two covered under here?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

That would be the correctional institute in Whitbourne.

MR. KIRBY:

Is that all?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Right now, that is all there is.

MR. KIRBY:

It does not cover the district school that was under the previous Eastern School

District?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

No.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay. It is just interesting that

it says schools and not so we are still spending $30 million a year on

substitutes. Is there anything

under consideration to bring that figure down at all?

It seems

MR. JACKMAN:

A lot of that is controlled by the Collective Agreement, and that is basically

out of our hands.

MR. KIRBY:

I would sort of suggest that it might not be out of your hands entirely.

I know that the NLTA has been on about family days and different ways of

handling absences. I am just

wondering if any of those presentations from the NLTA might have involved

bringing down this figure as a result of finding different ways to deal with

MR. JACKMAN:

I have not had the NLTA, but if they can suggest some ways in bringing it down,

I am certainly more than willing to sit and listen to them on it.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

There is $50 million for Employee Benefits, and those are CPP and health

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, EI.

MR. KIRBY:

Extended health.

MR. JACKMAN:

Group insurance.

MR. KIRBY:

There is an additional $900,000 required, or somewhere in that ballpark, for

this coming year. Is there a

particular reason why there is almost a million ?

MR. JACKMAN:

Are you still on Employee Benefits?

MR. KIRBY:

Yes. Why is that going up by ?

MR. JACKMAN:

The items that I have mentioned, we can provide you with the details specific to

that.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay. That seems like a big jump.

Revenue Provincial, again, is this the same as what you had indicated earlier?

If there was an error made and then going back and correcting it in terms

of, I do not know, vacation leave or whatever.

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

That would be related again to overpayments, as was discussed earlier.

MR. KIRBY:

And correcting that.

Last year, it just seems a bit unusual in comparison to all the lines we have

discussed so far, that the department budgeted $25,000 even, and then spent

$25,000 even on a line that is, as we previously discussed, somewhat

unpredictable in nature. That was

predicted exactly.

MR. JACKMAN:

Do we have a specific item there, Joan?

CHAIR:

Joan.

MS MORRIS:

Really, the amount I guess that is provided there is a nominal amount of revenue

that we would anticipate getting in the event that a teacher may be overpaid by

a day or someone who has gone on leave without the appropriate leave, that kind

of thing. It is really just a

nominal revenue allocation there to cover off those types of eventualities.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

School Board Operations, 3.1.02.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

Where are salaries for school board administrators?

MR. JACKMAN:

Where are the salaries listed?

MR. KIRBY:

Where are salaries included in the operations?

OFFICIAL:

That would be in Teaching Services.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, that is in Teaching Services.

MR. KIRBY:

Oh, it is back there.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, School Boards at the top line there.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay, I see it.

Under Purchased Services, is there a variety of things that were purchased to

the tune of $1.67 million?

MR. JACKMAN:

The reason for the difference is that insurance rates were lower than was

budgeted.

MR. KIRBY:

That is one of the things that is included in there is insurance?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

Is this where your rent is as well for schools?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, okay.

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

That would actually be the insurance premium there on its own for the whole, all

of the

MR. KIRBY:

That is all it is.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

That is all of it together. The

reduced rate there is showing savings from a procurement initiative.

MR. KIRBY:

Then there is Allowances and Assistance, $75,000 was budgeted and $63,000 was

spent. Is that for trustees?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

That is around bursaries.

MR. KIRBY:

For trustees?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, no.

MR. KIRBY:

Oh, for student bursaries.

MR. JACKMAN:

Student bursaries. Yes, less

students.

MR. KIRBY:

Is it a district scholarship, or no?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, it would be something like it is not used now, but I have a community in

my district where a student would go off on these student bursaries.

They would leave home at Grade 8 or Grade 9 and go to some large schools.

There are fewer people taking advantage of that now.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay, I see what you are saying.

They are not doing that any further because of CDLI, is that what the reasons

are there?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, it is for a variety of reasons.

I had a parent who did not want to leave the child, so they left the community

for two years. They went to another

community and stayed with the child until they finished and did not move back

again. I imagine that fifteen years

ago the number of students who were going on bursaries would have been much,

much higher than they are now.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

I am out of time, am I?

CHAIR:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

I don't mind if Mr. Kirby wants to continue.

MR. KIRBY:

No, that is fine. I can come back

later.

CHAIR:

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL:

I have a question under that, which is not a line item but it has to do with

student transportation and the Deloitte report.

There were good recommendations, and the department said it would form an

advisory committee

for implementation.

I am looking particularly, one of the recommendations is that the department

should purchase software for bus routing, fleet maintenance, et cetera, to

develop a stronger detailed contract for operators, to ensure consistency and

better monitoring and include extracurricular busing.

A third one I am looking at is the equitable delivery of driver training

to all drivers. Has a committee

been set up?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, there is. The RFP is out for

the routing software. The committee

is in place and the school board association is represented on that.

What was the other one? You had one

other item there you asked.

MS MICHAEL:

The three recommendations: one was the routing; one was the contract, a stronger

detailed contract to ensure consistency.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, and that is what the committee is working on, the template.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay. What about the driver

training?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, it was recognized that the training for the private operators was not up

to, say, the standard of board owned, so there has been initiatives around that.

MS MICHAEL:

Is that committee totally in house?

You talked about an advisory committee, so I assume you would have people from

within the department and people from outside the department on that committee?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, there is.

MS MICHAEL:

Can you give us an idea, Minister, of the areas covered by people from outside

the department?

MR. JACKMAN:

We have two representatives from the school board busing association.

OFFICIAL:

I think there are three for the schools.

MR. JACKMAN:

Three. There are three from the

school board busing association.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you.

Let's go to 3.1.02 no, that is where I have been, isn't it?

Okay, 3.1.03, I really do not have any questions there.

Subhead 3.1.04.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Under Revenue Provincial, $10,000 is what you have in there but it was revised

up to $140,000. What was that?

MR. JACKMAN:

That is revenue that comes in from the purchase of textbooks by groups that are

not part of our public system. For

example, the Innu would buy textbooks, Conne River would buy textbooks.

We have tutoring services who often will buy a set of textbooks in the

areas that they are tutoring in.

I was mentioning before, the Level III math book is $75.55 now; Level III math

teacher resource is $300. So you

get more that these groups are buying textbooks.

MS MICHAEL:

Right. It seems like some years you

obviously do not expect much because this year it is back down to $10,000 again.

They made a major one at that time, I guess.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay. That was 3.1.04.

Subhead 3.1.05; no, I do not think I have any there.

CHAIR:

Ms Michael, you were saying 3.1.05.

MS MICHAEL:

Yes, I think I am all right there.

Subhead 3.1.06.

CHAIR:

Okay. Page 15.9, 3.1.06.

MS MICHAEL:

Here we have School Facilities Alterations and Improvements to Existing

Facilities, et cetera. I am

assuming you can correct me if I am wrong the Professional Services would

all have to do with the planning for schools, would it?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

This year, of course, we have a few more on the list.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes. I found with this one over the

years, your budget depends on how much progress is made.

Sometimes these are stalled because you have to deal with land issues and

whatnot, so it is ever, ever changing.

There is $19.23 million allocated.

MS MICHAEL:

You know I cannot resist this one, don't you?

How much progress was made with Virginia Park Elementary?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, I was expecting it. I never

got the information to you, but I bet you there is somebody here who knows.

Ingrid knows.

CHAIR:

Ingrid.

MS CLARKE:

Yes, there was a tender for some site work at the school but unfortunately there

were some problems with the tender.

We met with Transportation and Works today and they are advising that they

should have another tender out in early May for Virginia Park School.

That would be (inaudible).

MS MICHAEL:

Another one. People are not going

to be happy to hear that.

MS CLARKE:

It is progress.

MS MICHAEL:

This is the third now, isn't it?

MS CLARKE:

I beg your pardon?

MS MICHAEL:

That would be the third one, wouldn't it?

MS CLARKE:

This would be the second one.

MS MICHAEL:

The second one. I thought that one

had already been put out.

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible) in May.

MS MICHAEL:

In May. Okay.

How long will that process take, could I ask?

Is there any hope that the cleanup of the ground is going to start in the

fall, for example? Is that

something they can hope for in that school?

CHAIR:

Ingrid.

MS CLARKE:

The cleanup will take place over the summer.

MS MICHAEL:

Over the summer? Okay, thank you

very much.

MR. JACKMAN:

You have to hold us to that.

MS MICHAEL:

Yes, I am going to hold you to that.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes you do, indeed you should.

MS MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

I know we have heard it and they are in different places in the budget, et

cetera, but could we have the list of the schools that are new and those that

are having major construction done to them, please?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, we can certainly do that.

MS MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

Under Purchased Services, I am assuming that would also have to do with those

who do the work on the schools, it comes from outside of government agencies and

that is what all of that would be.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

CHAIR:

Ingrid.

MS CLARKE:

Purchased Services is for the construction contracts,

whereas Professional

Services is for the engineers and the architects.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you that is a good clarification; I appreciate that.

I just want to go over my list and make sure I do not have anything else.

Under 3.1.07, for the planning, construction, renovation and extension of

educational facilities and for the purchase of equipment this is new

construction?

MS CLARKE:

Yes, that is correct. This is for

major construction projects.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay. That is where, though,

something like Virginia Park Elementary would go, wouldn't it?

It would be under that because that is a major capital expenditure?

CHAIR:

Ingrid.

MS CLARKE:

Yes, that is correct.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay so if we could have then the two separate lists, those under 3.1.06 and

those under 3.1.07?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

I think it would be the same list.

MS MICHAEL:

Would it be the same list?

MR. JACKMAN:

We will get you the list, yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you very much.

CHAIR:

Ingrid.

MS CLARKE:

Under 3.1.06, that is the repairs and maintenance budget and that is on our Web

site, the list of projects.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, very good, thank you very much.

Would the list of the new facilities be under that as well no, just the

existing facilities that have maintenance and repairs being done.

MS CLARKE:

Under 3.1.07, the new construction, those projects are also listed on the Web

site.

MS MICHAEL:

Great, well then you do not need to send us a list.

Thank you very much.

I will stop there instead of going on to the next one.

CHAIR:

Mr. Kirby.

MR. KIRBY:

I just want to go now to 3.1.01, Teaching Services, for primary, elementary, and

secondary education. That says:

Teaching Services, Appropriations provide for the cost of teachers' salaries

and when I asked about school board operations about salaries there you said

that the salaries for school district administrators are included in this line,

but that is not indicated in the explanatory note there.

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

School administrators would be under Teaching Services.

School-based principals, if you are

talking about district staff that would be under School Board Operations.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay, that is what I was talking about.

Is there anywhere where the salaries for school district administrators are

provided?

MR. JACKMAN:

They would be under this but certainly

MR. KIRBY:

Could I have a breakout of that?

MR. JACKMAN:

You can get a breakdown of that. We

will provide that.

MR. KIRBY:

Transportation of School Children: Does that include the purchase price for new

school buses?

MR. JACKMAN:

Are you under a particular section?

CHAIR:

He is under 3.1.02.10, Transportation of School Children found on page 15.7,

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

That is for both board-owned and private contractors.

MR. KIRBY:

I know there may be concerns around tendering, but is there somewhere where the

cost for the public school bus operations versus all the private tenders

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, there certainly would be.

MR. KIRBY:

I do not recall seeing that figure anywhere else.

MR. JACKMAN:

No, but we can get that, though.

MR. KIRBY:

Is it in the report that Deloitte

MR. JACKMAN:

No, I do not think so. Don?

MR. STAPLETON:

No, I do not think they provided the details in the report.

MR. KIRBY:

Is it possible then to get a list are there any privacy concerns around

providing a list and you could probably just take out any identifying

information of the private tenders that have been let in the past year for

school bus operators? Are there

privacy

concerns around providing that just as it is?

MR. JACKMAN:

I will check and see because one thing that we do know is that the cost of the

contracts is going up. They are

going up quite a bit. I will check

into it and if there are no confidentiality issues, then I do not see any issue

with giving you the information.

MR. KIRBY:

The costs are going up, but I know you are on the public record, Minister,

saying that your agenda is not towards consolidation into a smaller number or

single school bus contracts. Based

on my meetings with school bus private- and family-owned operators, that it is a

serious area of concern for them; they feel like they are being more or less

priced out of the business. Unlike

the larger operators, they do not have other lines of business that they can dip

into or equity to back up the purchase of new buses and so on, so I just note

that.

Under 3.1.02, School Board Operations, under 10, there is an Administration

Grant

MR. JACKMAN:

That is an increase of the leasing for the school board spacing this year.

MR. KIRBY:

That increase to $19 million was an increase due to cost of space?

MR. JACKMAN:

No you are looking at where it has gone from $18,730,000 up to

MR. KIRBY:

It goes from $18,700,000 to $19,200,000 and then it drops way back down by close

to $6 million.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, the first one there is the increase in rental space.

MR. KIRBY:

That is a regular operating grant?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, for leasing at Atlantic Place.

MR. KIRBY:

Under which one?

MR. JACKMAN:

That is where it has gone from $18,730,000 up to $19,279,100.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

The next one, it is a drop

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Again, are we talking about the $12,883,100, Mr. Kirby?

MR. KIRBY:

Yes, that is right.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

In that, we would have several things as well impacting that.

You do have the 2 per cent salary increases for those that have

collective bargaining increases. We

would have the lease increase for the school district which is annually about

$445,000 for the lease, but then against that you would have the annualization

of the budget reductions. A lot of

that would be to do with the less of the executive: the staff, the number of

assistant directors, the number of directors would be included in that, as well

as other administration reductions that would be part of that, and that would be

about $6.6 million, $6.57 million; therefore, the reduction is $5.8 million when

you do the increases and the decrease.

MR. JACKMAN:

That is a savings through the restructuring.

MR. KIRBY:

The Regular Operating Grant above that is gone up by just about $6 million.

Just above that, that has increased from the budgeted amount by $6

million.

MR. JACKMAN:

That is for the 2 per cent salary increase, right?

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible).

MR. KIRBY:

That is all that is, that $6 million?

MR. JACKMAN:

There are collective bargaining increases.

We had a transfer from R&M school facilities.

There are utility expenses, these types of things.

MR. KIRBY:

I do not know where to ask this question so I will ask it here because it

certainly relates to school board operations.

I raised this in debate in the House of Assembly, it may have been last

week or the week before and then it subsequently appeared in

The Telegram newspaper, but I do not

think anybody was interviewed about it.

I do not think you were interviewed about it.

With respect to vacant schools, schools that are no longer in use, those

assets were obviously purchased; the schools were built by the Department of

Education. I guess funds were

provided to the school districts to carry that work out.

Where are we with those buildings and

MR. JACKMAN:

I believe there are eighteen of them.

MR. KIRBY:

Eighteen?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes. Just recently we signed off on

nine. You have to get ministerial

sign off, the board requests, so that then it can be put out for purchase.

So we have nine of those eighteen underway, but I do agree with you that

it is something that has to be dealt with.

MR. KIRBY:

When those are sold, like Remax are they sold by relators or how does that

work from a business

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Usually the school district will write to the minister to ask for permission to

dispose of the property. Then they

would have to come back in under the Schools Act, under the denominational

interest that might be still in to the property, so they have to go through all

of that to get an appropriate purchase and sale agreement.

That would come back in for the minister's approval.

It does take some time to determine if there is still denominational

interest in some of those properties, but oftentimes someone will approach the

school district with an interest in the building whether that be a town, whether

that be private wanting to buy the school, but that often happens that they will

approach the school district themselves.

MR. KIRBY:

I am just concerned about fair play in terms of if they are businesses in a

community or a town, all those interested having an equal opportunity to

compete, sort of almost like in a tendering process, to get the best price for

those facilities.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

It would be either a tendering or an RFP really is often a preferred way

because you can determine the use of the building.

You can determine many other factors.

An RFP is often as well a way to go.

MR. KIRBY:

So that is what is going to happen, do we know, or is that up to the

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, I think there are some cases where there is not an interest so the schools

stand there. We might get a

community that comes in and approaches, but there is an RFP process that goes

out

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

It comes back in for approval for the minister's signing, so then of course we

would be reviewing that with the school district to determine the use as well.

CHAIR:

It is 7:29 p.m. In recognition of

the need for a stretch and all the rest, we will break for ten minutes.

We will reconvene at 7:40 p.m. until 9:00 p.m.

Thank you, folks, a ten-minute break.

Recess

CHAIR:

Welcome back to the Estimates of the Department of Education.

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I do have one more question with regard to School Facilities New Construction

CHAIR:

Ms Michael's microphone, please.

Thank you.

MS MICHAEL:

I do have one more question or another question I should not say just one

more, who knows, but at this moment another question with regard to school

design. I guess I am asking it

specifically with regard to Virginia Park Elementary, but I think I would mean

it for any school that right now is on the drawing board.

I know the design for the school has been done but now we know that

government has made the decision with regard to the all-day Kindergarten, is

there going to be a need to go back and look at that school design to see if it

will fit the new plans?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, there will be.

MS MICHAEL:

There will be?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Oh good, I am really glad to hear that.

Thank you. Obviously that

will happen for any school that right now is on the draft board.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, it will.

MS MICHAEL:

Or you can pass the draft board because I think Virginia Park probably was

MR. JACKMAN:

All of them have to be taken into consideration.

MS MICHAEL:

Right, all over you have to do that.

Okay, that is great. I am

glad to hear that. Thank you very

much.

Going then to 3.2.01, Curriculum Development, I really do not have a lot of

questions there. I think the main

one in terms of a budget line item would be under Purchased Services which was

budgeted at $102,500, spent $100,000 and this year down to $83,500.

What actually would come under that and how do you know that you need to

bring it down that much this year?

MR. JACKMAN:

One of the things that has happened and perhaps Janet can explain it a little

more that is the Queen's Printer one, right

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible).

MR. JACKMAN:

is that before you would have individual items in here that would go to the

Queen's Printer so now you pay for it upfront, so it is not in a budget item any

more. Do you want to explain it a

little further?

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Throughout actually our document you will find about $177,000 where it would

have represented the history of spending for particular divisions in the

Department of Education and so rather than have the Queen's Printer invoice us

and us pay it basically based on our usage, it is automatically taken out and

the printing will be free.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay. I think I heard that before

actually about what was going on.

Right now in the department how much curricular development is happening?

MR. JACKMAN:

I will tell you oh curriculum

development, not professional development.

MS MICHAEL:

No, curriculum development.

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Currently this year, we are implementing the final year of the math, the

curriculum, the Grade 12 course is being implemented this year.

That will give us the full K to 12.

probably three or four grades there, including Grade 10.

I will let Ed speak to the specifics of that, but the new curriculums

We are developing several others.

There are others that we would be doing and I think I will pass that over

to Ed. I know certainly in social

studies we are working on some new ones there.

CHAIR:

Ed.

MR. WALSH:

I have nothing further to add than what Janet had mentioned.

A number of things that are currently underway, and in the fall we have

not finalized all our plans at this stage, but that is in progress and that

information will be available shortly.

MS MICHAEL:

Looking at the budget, you have the resources completely in-house to deal with

curriculum development. Is that

correct?

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Expertise, Ms Michael?

MS MICHAEL:

Yes, the expertise.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Once we decide on a particular curriculum area to be reviewed and there is a

cycle, actually, for curriculum renewal by grade level and by subject, and we

basically certainly look for the teachers in the system with the expertise as

well. So though we would be the

lead on all new curriculum, that would certainly be done by asking for the

district representatives, and in this case it would be regionally as well in

most cases to ensure that we have the expertise from the current teachers in the

system.

MS MICHAEL:

Right.

This is, I guess, more curiosity than anything because of having had a

background in it. Do you use the

special interest councils of the NLTA in doing that kind of thing as well?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Normally what we would do in any new curriculum, we would go to the school

districts and ask for their advice on who would be the best person for a

particular subject area.

Oftentimes, they will have a program specialist themselves in the district that

they would look to; but oftentimes, we will want teachers in the system.

In terms of the special interest councils, oftentimes they are the ones

the districts are looking for, because they are active and involved

MS MICHAEL:

That is right.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

but we would certainly be looking for teachers who are active in the system

and who would be able to speak best for classroom practice.

MS MICHAEL:

Thank you.

Subhead 3.2.02, Language Programs again, actually, I probably would have asked

this question for the one above as well under 01, Transportation and

Communications, there was a big drop in that last year, by $100,000 actually,

and this year back up to $143,900.

Could we have some explanation what that is about?

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

You are looking at $68,000 there?

MS MICHAEL:

That is right, yes, down from $168,000.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

In terms of travel, we have all been trying to reduce the travel.

MS MICHAEL:

No, it is transportation I am sorry, yes, go ahead.

Sorry about that.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

From all divisions you would notice that most of the transportation numbers are

down. That was one of the ways

within our own department that we had tried to do cost savings and use that for

other budget issues.

MS MICHAEL:

Yes, but you are bringing it back up to $143,900.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Yes. In that particular case, that

was funding there to address the increasing demand for school bursaries for

travel. In this particular case,

that particular one there, we basically I think a total of $197,000 was needed

for the increase in the bursaries.

MS MICHAEL:

For bursaries?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

This would be for travel bursaries for students going, whether to Quebec or

whether they are going to St. Pierre.

So, we try to do the savings and then use it for the student travel.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, great. That is

understandable. Thank you.

Under Purchased Services, the budget last year was $249,500, revised down by

about $40,000, and then down more to $192,100.

What would be purchased under this, and why is it continuing to go down?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Purchased Services are no different than any division really, but because they

were lower than anticipated in the current year, we have basically, in the

revised budget there, certainly transferred monies, again to handle the student

travel. That is about $57,400 from

Purchased Services.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you.

Under 09, Allowances and Assistance, could you give us a description of what

that is, the Allowances and the Assistance?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Ms Michael, that is actually the line where all of these amounts that I have

referenced have been transferred into, to allow for the travel.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay.

Under Grants and Subsidies 10, could you give us a description of the grants and

subsidies?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

The grants and subsidies that are referenced there would be to handle intensive

core French or French Immersion grants.

They would be summer programs.

You would have some professional learning there, support for French

teachers and that kind of thing.

MS MICHAEL:

Perhaps we could have a list. Could

we have a list for that?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Certainly.

MS MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

Then under the Federal Revenue, the federal government still has money going

into the learning of French?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Under bilingualism?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Yes, under language programs, official language programs.

MS MICHAEL:

Under language programs. Right.

Okay.

I will stop there, Mr. Chair, because I only have ten seconds left.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Mr. Kirby.

MR. KIRBY:

Thank you.

Back under School Board Operations, 3.1.02; last year when we were here talking

questions about the amount of efficiencies that would be achieved through this.

Minister, at the time you noted that it could be up to $13 million.

My colleague, Mr. Bennett, asked about there was a discussion about

providing a breakdown of the savings under HR and itemizing the amount of

savings. We have not ever received

an itemized breakdown. I think he

referred to it as a spreadsheet.

MR. JACKMAN:

Did he put a request in? Was it

asked at last year's budget?

MR. KIRBY:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

Okay. I will check back on that.

We will jot that down, too.

MR. KIRBY:

It seems sort of glaring that despite the suggestion that there would be up to

$13 million in efficiencies, there was what I would refer to as an over

expenditure of $10 million. Based

on our discussion this evening, I am to assume that was a result of the salary

increases, signing bonus, increase in rent, and cost of purchase of new school

buses. Was there something else

that I am missing beyond that?

MR. JACKMAN:

Let me see, what additional costs would there be.

You are asking specific to which line item, because I am looking at

MR. KIRBY:

Amount to be voted. Last

year the amount budgeted was $185 million, spent $195 million, and now

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes. There are some signing

bonuses, there are some shift differential increases, and there are some standby

increases. Like that would be, for

example, shift differentials for janitors or maintenance people.

There are district legal claims.

The Labrador district had three that were outstanding; the Eastern had

one, so that one is being dealt with.

MR. KIRBY:

They need to be dealt with through the winding up process for those boards, is

that what it was?

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, those were ongoing things that the new board if it were just still the

Now that they have consolidated, well they have three additional.

Because the Labrador legal situations now all fall under the one

jurisdiction, so there are additional costs.

MR. KIRBY:

There was also some discussion of in addition to there being some cost

efficiencies that this would help improve student achievement.

Is there any documentation, is there any review, any report, any analysis

that has been carried out to show whether or not it would, or it has, or it

board?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes. What it is, their strategic

plan, that each of these boards was developing their own strategic plan.

No doubt, there were very many similarities in them, but this board is

continuing the consolidation of all that into one strategic plan.

MR. KIRBY:

You are referring to those multi-year plans that each of the individual four

predecessor districts had, and there is something in there about it?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, their multi

MR. KIRBY:

Multi-year plans?

MR. JACKMAN:

I am talking about their strategic plans.

Are we using the same thing here?

MR. KIRBY:

This is the previous strategic plans of the predecessor boards indicating that

having one school district would improve student achievement?

MR. JACKMAN:

Well I would hope, I would certainly hope, the number one goal of every

strategic plan would be student achievement.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes, I have not seen that in there.

MR. JACKMAN:

In ?

MR. KIRBY:

In the predecessor board's strategic plans that the move towards a single board

would result in any way improved student achievement.

I do not think there was even any discussion of the move to a single

board.

MR. JACKMAN:

I am just looking at it, first and foremost, that it does not matter if you have

one board, three boards or five boards student achievement has to be number one.

Each one of these boards previously was developing their own strategic

plan.

MR. KIRBY:

I am just thinking in terms of cause and effect.

MR. JACKMAN:

I guess we can debate that.

MR. KIRBY:

So, there is no analysis then, I guess, is really my point, or a report or

review?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, what the boards are doing is they are consolidating.

Just the same as we would have an evaluation policy that would be more

standardized across the Province, so now you are moving towards the entire

Province working under one umbrella, if I could put it that way, student

achievement

MR. KIRBY:

Is there any plan for some sort of analysis, or audit, or evaluation to be

conducted within a year of the establishment of the single board to see if it is

actually meeting those objectives or whatever objectives that there are?

MR. JACKMAN:

We have our assessments which would be the CRTs, and they are doing other

assessments likewise, national and international assessments.

MR. KIRBY:

PISA and so on.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

district?

CHAIR:

Dale, I am going to ask you to ask for Estimates.

MR. JACKMAN:

I can answer this one.

CHAIR:

Okay.

MR. JACKMAN:

That is now being worked on.

MR. KIRBY:

Then, after we see that, we will be given some timing for the election of the

new trustees?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes. My understanding right now is

that they are working on the zoning.

I cannot give you the exact status of it, but that is what they are

working on: their constitution, plus zoning for representation in the future.

MR. KIRBY:

district. Are their expenses

included here under School Board Operations or where they paid for that work, or

is that work that they did in accordance with their regular duties?

MR. JACKMAN:

The trustees that we are taking in from the previous boards, they just continued

on. The independent Chair that we

had did not take a fee for his service.

MR. KIRBY:

We have, through ATIPP, information with respect to their expenses.

I guess that will be posted in due course.

MR. JACKMAN:

Sure.

MR. KIRBY:

I think I will just move from that.

I just have one final question on that.

The multi-year plans that were produced by the previous boards, they are

all going to be merged into one single multi-year plan?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

What occurred there was we had asked all of the previous boards, had all of

their plans in place, and the new school district, when they formed, took all

those plans and did an analysis of that, especially around the student

achievement piece because all of them are up for a new cycle, will have a new

strategic plan for 2014-2018.

This current year, they would have done an activity report on that one issue of

student achievement. The new

time. So there was one where the

consolidation piece was looked at, looked at the plans, and the concentration,

given that there was just one year left because right now they are out there

doing their consultations for their new strategic plan.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

Where is the funding for the Newfoundland and Labrador School Boards Association

included in here?

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, the funding for the School Boards Association does not exist.

MR. KIRBY:

They are not getting any further funding?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, their term was up as of the end of March.

Now, they are looking to see if we will continue some sort of funding for

them. There is one thing that I do

agree; I think that our School Boards Association needs to have its trustees be

provided the opportunity to stay current.

Now, we are looking at the possibility of covering their registration

costs, for example, in the Canadian school federation, but we have not decided

on that yet.

MR. KIRBY:

An association of two boards?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, my understanding and like I said, we are just checking into this is

that you have to be a registered member.

You pay a registration and then you are part of a larger Canadian school.

MR. KIRBY:

So they would not have an executive director and administrative staff like they

do now or whatever?

MR. JACKMAN:

No.

CHAIR:

Okay, I am going to hold it there.

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

Looking at 3.3.01

CHAIR:

Subhead 3.3.01, page 15.11.

MS MICHAEL:

Student Support Services.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Appropriations

provide for the development, implementation and evaluation of programs for

children with special needs.

These salaries that are listed here, they have to do totally with the

development of the programs; it is not dealing with the children, per se,

directly?

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

This would be the salaries for the people who work in the department in that

division.

MS MICHAEL:

How many people work in the department in that division?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

In the Student Support Services we have seven there and couple of secondments

are involved there but not on that that particular dollar sign there would be

for seven.

MS MICHAEL:

This would be for programs for children with special needs no matter what that

need is, so everything from autism through to children who are hard of hearing,

to use your use your language there, the whole range?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

In the Purchased Services, what would be first of all the Professional

Services, it is only $70,000. What

would be the professional services that you are considering there?

It seems to be a standard amount that you maintain.

MR. JACKMAN:

While they are looking that up, the purchased services is the Queen's Printer

thing again.

MS MICHAEL:

Yes, I realized that. That was why

I stopped.

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

That $70,000 is related to the poverty reduction monies there.

I would anticipate that it is related to the past teachers and perhaps

some professional development there regarding the past teachers.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, I am glad you mentioned the past because I have a question.

I understand that the past program was piloted in eight schools

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

and in last year's Estimates, Minister, you said that the decision would be

made whether to continue it or not.

Could we have an update on the past program?

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Last year, those schools retained through their regular allocation, Ms Michael.

Again, that would be the decision of the school district regarding that,

but they have been very successful.

In terms of the kind of things that the past teachers do, which are credit

recovery and credit rescue so that basically is sort of a policy piece that

occurs in all schools really and in many schools, but these particular schools,

the ones that you have mentioned, would have a teacher dedicated to that or a

half-time teacher.

The answer to the question would that continue, that would be a district

decision, but certainly last year the district used their current units to

retain those.

MS MICHAEL:

Could we have an idea of the success especially with regard to keeping the

students at risk in school?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

I am sure I could provide you with a document to show some statistics there.

I think the real benefit of those is really often in the person who is

hired for that job connecting with the youth, getting them back in school and

making them feel worthwhile towards their own goals.

The success of that program is in the hiring of the right person or

choosing the right person in the school to connect with the children.

It is very one-on-one.

When we visited out in Grand Falls-Windsor, there was a teacher working with two

different students at a time. It

was completely one-on-one kind of work.

You can have a student doing a course in a very short period of time.

They might only need two credits to graduate, and rather than do it in

the regular time frame that a school offers and the structure that interferes

sometimes with student engagement, these past teachers have had great success.

I can provide you with there is an evaluation that has been done and some

statistics that I can give to you to show that we are very pleased with that,

and pleased that the district has continued with them.

MS MICHAEL:

I would be interested in that. The

$70,000 covers that?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

No, I will double-check, but based on what we have there in our booklet it is

related to that. I am assuming that

might be some monies that were regarding some professional development related

to that.

MS MICHAEL:

Right, because where would the money for those past teachers come from, or where

would it show up?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Right now, when the funding did cease last year as such for the teachers

themselves, the schools that continue that, did that out of their regular

allocation.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

I am just thinking about the impact of what you just said.

The evaluation that you are talking about I assume would have input from the

teachers themselves who are the past teachers.

Do you have a sense of how they feel about the program?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you.

I do look forward to receiving that.

We will go to the next one, 3.3.02, the Atlantic Provinces Special Education

Authority. I think this is pretty

straightforward, but I would like some information on this because you say here

that it deals with educational services primarily for students who are

visually impaired and hearing impaired, coordinated through a facility in Nova

Scotia. The name of which I

forget, but I have heard the name of the facility.

MR. JACKMAN:

APSEA .

MS MICHAEL:

Yes.

My understanding is that it is mainly students who are visually impaired who are

assisted here.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes. We are doing some work with

them now around the autism spectrum disorder, and there is development of some

online resources teachers can use with that.

MS MICHAEL:

Can I ask what the grant and subsidy is based on?

Is it based on services delivered, or do they determine an amount and you

just give a blanket amount? I am

curious about how that works.

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

APSEA is an Atlantic union of all of the four Atlantic Provinces, and this would

represent Newfoundland's share in the total cost.

They look at all aspects of that, what would be Newfoundland's share

based on our numbers. As you said,

the majority of the services are for the visually impaired, but we also have

services as well for the hearing impaired when we have very challenging students

in terms of the type of assessments.

To answer your question, the actual amount and the reason it has increased, by

the way, is just due to salary increases at APSEA, but it would be reviewed

based on our total enrolments and our usage.

There was a review of APSEA that was done last year, and one of the

things was to try to do a better job of predicting what the services would be.

There is actually a report on APSEA, if you wanted that as well, Ms

Michael.

MS MICHAEL:

Yes, I would like that report, please.

How many students do we have right now being serviced by APSEA?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Well, that would vary, depending on what the services were needed.

Right now in the Province we have 124 students who are blind or visually

impaired, and depending on what Braille services they want, all of the Braille

services would come from APSEA. So

whether we have a child who is writing a CRT or a public exam, that Braille

would be done through APSEA. If

there was an assessment that had to be done, all of those students, the 124, if

they needed something, depending on what the needs were at the time for those

children, would be serviced.

We have 321 students who are deaf or hard of hearing in the Province, though

that is not as much of a service because the way that though some provinces

have both services in APSEA to the same degree, ours were mostly for the blind,

visually impaired. We have used

APSEA in recent years to help train and provide professional development for our

hearing itinerants, just to give it much up to date and current practice.

For any of the really challenging assessments for the hearing impaired,

we have used APSEA.

As the minister said, one of the newest projects and perhaps one of the ones we

are probably going to benefit the most from is called the Autism in Education

Project which was really started at APSEA but is now part of CAMET, which is

basically the joint council there.

We are using that Autism in Education Project then through CAMET, that

partnership there which we, as the minister said, did announce in January I

believe it was, is online training for autism.

There will be two levels of that.

We are working on that together as an Atlantic initiative, because it is

certainly a challenging disorder and one where we are trying to reach as many

classroom teachers as possible, student assistants, and trying to find it is

one of the most exciting pieces that we are doing together.

MS MICHAEL:

Are parents of children with autism involved in this?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Parents of children with autism, this one originated in New Brunswick, the

model. Yes, parents were involved

in that, and when this training piece is done parents would be able to access

that as well.

MS MICHAEL:

They are not part of the training.

The training is for teachers.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

I am sorry, say that again.

MS MICHAEL:

The training is for teachers, is it?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

The training is for teachers, student assistants, and parents.

MR. JACKMAN:

Parents, too.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

It will be an online piece of information that all of them can use.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Mr. Kirby.

MR. KIRBY:

I want to go back to 3.1.06 and 3.1.07.

I guess 06 relates to yes, current and capital, I get it now.

There has been a suggestion that there cannot be any submissions made to the

Pearl-Paradise school system.

MR. JACKMAN:

Say it again.

MR. KIRBY:

That they should not be making any submissions to the department until they use

all of the space they have within that system.

Is that your understanding of it?

MR. JACKMAN:

I have answered questions, what members asked.

We have not put a restriction on the district.

Carry out your work,

certainly do it as cost efficiently as you can.

I would not expect that somebody will come in and say all right, we need

to build a new school. That would

be your solution. We have put no

parameters on them, other than be prudent.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay. That is different from my

understanding, but maybe I will get back to

MR. JACKMAN:

You are listening to the member sitting next to you.

You are not listening to my answers.

MR. KIRBY:

I attended three public meetings myself in Mount Pearl and the Goulds in

relation to that, so that was stated I will not name the individual who stated

that they were obliged to use all of the existing space before going to the

department.

MR. JACKMAN:

Would you suggest otherwise?

MR. KIRBY:

Pardon me?

MR. JACKMAN:

Would you suggest otherwise?

MR. KIRBY:

There is a limit to that, I think, in terms of

MR. JACKMAN:

My bottom line is I would say to them use your existing space to see what you

can do to accommodate the students who are there.

Then if there are additional requirements, you come forward with it.

MR. KIRBY:

Sure, I see what you are saying. I

mean, it should be done within reason, but I do not think it should be used as

an excuse to sell whatever reconfiguration plan

MR. JACKMAN:

I am telling you that we have not rejected where the boards have come from;

speak to the member behind you.

They come forward with a plan, and then we just bring it through a budget

process and get it approved.

MR. KIRBY:

There was some indication that the board is it seems to vary depending on what

day I am listening to communication on this and who I am listening to, but there

is some suggestion that they are I will not use the word committed, but

investigating the possibility of a high school in Paradise.

There is nothing in the Budget this year about that.

MR. JACKMAN:

No.

We are, right now, in Paradise the crunch for us right now is to have another

primary-elementary school built there.

You can go through the list of projects.

The board have said that they see that out there, but in this particular

Budget round there is not a submission around that.

MR. KIRBY:

Is it the case that the land has been purchased near Octagon Pond for the third

elementary school in Paradise?

MR. JACKMAN:

That is still in the process.

MR. KIRBY:

That is still in process?

MR. JACKMAN:

We are dealing with the Roman Catholic Church here.

There is an exchange of prices going on now between the board and the

Episcopal Corporation.

MR. KIRBY:

What is the estimated ribbon cutting date on that school?

When is that going to open for business?

MR. JACKMAN:

Ingrid can speak to it, but I think once they develop the land or the site, we

project within two years from that.

CHAIR:

Ingrid.

MS CLARKE:

Normally, construction takes about eighteen months.

We met with Transportation and Works today and asked them about the

schedule for that particular project and they are reviewing the time frame.

MR. KIRBY:

So a time frame has been proposed.

MR. JACKMAN:

The time frame will be established once the land is straightened away.

First and foremost, we have to get the land straightened away; hopefully,

we will have that resolved before too long.

We have resolved some issues in some other areas with land.

We are still working through a thing in Portugal Cove-St. Phillips.

This one is the same thing.

MR. KIRBY:

The question parents keep asking is what year, which September is that going to

open?

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, if we can get the land and that straightened away and get the plans all

developed, I would say we are looking at about two years out.

CHAIR:

Ingrid.

MS CLARKE:

We are looking at 2016 for occupancy.

MR. JACKMAN:

Two years out.

CHAIR:

Ingrid.

MS CLARKE:

I can tell you that the planning has progressed significantly.

They have completed design development.

They are just about ready now to go into tender documents.

So that school, right now, is further ahead than the others that were

announced at that time.

MR. KIRBY:

What about the K-9 in Portugal Cove-St. Phillips?

MR. JACKMAN:

We are continuing to work with the town on that.

There are issues around the slope of land, elevation behind all I can

say to you is that everybody is engaged with it, trying to get it moved ahead.

So department officials are engaged with the town.

MR. KIRBY:

Does that mean that the land has not been purchased yet for Portugal Cove-St.

Phillip's school; it has not been finalized?

MR. JACKMAN:

The site has been

MR. KIRBY:

Selected.

MR. JACKMAN:

Right, but what we are talking about are issues of access on and off roadways.

I do not know, Ingrid, if you want to speak to it a little bit more.

MS CLARKE:

Yes, the piece of land that has been approved conditionally for the school is

owned by the Town of Portugal Cove-St. Phillips.

It is behind the town hall.

The town has plans to build a lifestyle centre near that piece of property, so

it has been somewhat challenging to try to find a configuration for the school

that also does not interfere with their plans for the lifestyle centre.

There have been problems with the slope of the land and, like others have

mentioned, about access and traffic congestion concerns off Thorburn Road.

We are working with the town; we are meeting with town officials on a regular

basis. The latest suggestion is

that the location of the school would move up closer to the soccer field and

right now we are waiting for some of the snow to melt so we can do some test

pits on this other piece of land.

In the meantime, there is a floor plan developed.

With the proposed new location of the school on this particular site,

there will not need to be any changes in floor plans.

So the work that has been done, it will not be for not, but it has been

challenging to try to find the proper location of the school on that property.

MR. KIRBY:

I met with the public works committee out there six months ago and that does not

sound a whole lot different than what the issues were then with respect to

accommodating the school on the site and the traffic and so on and so forth.

That is

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

I think at the latest meeting it is certainly not at the movement stage, but

there is much more understanding and with the town certainly fully up to scratch

on it. It is just that we are

trying to move this thing along as quickly as we can.

MR. KIRBY:

Now with this particular school and the one that is going in Paradise and I

guess other builds that are planned, we are now taking into account the need to

accommodate a full day of Kindergarten in the design of those particular

schools.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, we are and we are doing another thing in the one that is going to be built

now. There will be consideration

for the accommodations of students, say, in junior high.

Schools that have been built have been traditionally built for primary,

elementary; so now, for example, we might have wider corridors and the core

might be a bit bigger so that if there are transitions in a few years' time, you

might be able to accommodate population shifts that way.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes.

Minister, a week ago in Question Period you committed to maintaining the class

size cap for Kindergarten.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

Are we talking about one class of Kindergarten students surrounded by four walls

MR. JACKMAN:

There will be no teacher with more than twenty students.

MR. KIRBY:

In what space, then? Each class of

Kindergarten students will have separate classrooms?

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, in some twenty or so, we have to add modulars on to accommodate them.

As we get further into this, we will find some creative ways, if there

need to be, to have classrooms addressed and

MR. KIRBY:

So you are not ruling out having then multiple classes in one classroom?

MR. JACKMAN:

Multiple?

MR. KIRBY:

Having, say, two classes of Kindergarten students separated by dividers

(inaudible).

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, as we get further into that, we will take a look at that.

We have classes in our system now that have that in place.

MR. KIRBY:

They do not nap in the middle of the day.

MR. JACKMAN:

They do not?

MR. KIRBY:

Nap in the middle of the day have a nap.

This is one of the logistical issues, the need for these kids to sleep

somewhere in the middle of the day.

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, all I can say to you is we will work our way through those issues.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you.

Subhead 3.3.03.

MR. JACKMAN:

Subhead 3.3.03, yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Appropriations provide for supports to students who are deaf and hearing

impaired, including accommodations, transportation and American Sign Language

interpretation.

I am certainly curious, Minister, with regard to 01, the Salaries, where the

Salaries in last year's budget were $338,900, and we are down to $48,000.

What is happening here?

MR. JACKMAN:

For $337,000 up at $338,000, there is a signing bonus, but now what is happening

Department of Education. So at one

point they were then on the Department of Education books, let's say, and now

they are allocated to the district.

MS MICHAEL:

Was there an appropriate transfer of that sum of money over to the school board?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

May I ask what was the reason for doing that?

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

These interpreters are in certain schools, and it is much more instead of the

department being responsible for these employees, if they are not in and there

has to be a substitute called, it is much easier to have that handled at the

school-base level and then of course the school district is in charge of the

schools.

It was felt to be a much better fit to whom they report to and they would be

part of the staff rather than directly from the Department of Education, but

there is a transfer to School Board Operations of $318,900 for that same

purpose.

MS MICHAEL:

What would the $48,400 be retained for?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

That is for one employee, the 2 per cent salary for one person at the Department

of Education who deals with a lot of the students who were at the School for the

Deaf and some of the services that we provide there.

Some of them travel back and forth on the weekend and some of the things

that we have to handle there.

MS MICHAEL:

It says here that accommodations are also included, but I do not see anything

under the list that would say accommodations to me.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

A lot of times, what you are referring to are with accommodations, but of course

you would have FM systems. Actually

some of the students were given IPhones and different other things.

So there are several accommodations made for those students.

MS MICHAEL:

Oh, it means accommodations in that sense.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

As well for students, for example, from the School for the Deaf you would have

accommodations, some of them here are boarding

MS MICHAEL:

Yes.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

and that as well.

MS MICHAEL:

I guess that is what I am asking.

Where would that be covered in this list, the boarding?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Under Purchased Services.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you.

What has been done to evaluate the impact because of the closing of the school

and these students who are now in the four schools that have been referred to?

I still have people from the community of the deaf and hearing impaired

coming to me. There are grave

concerns. I appreciate what we are

doing here tonight and this is not Estimates, but I guess I will repeat and

you have already said that I can come talk to you, but it will not be just me.

I will want some people from the community with me to sit down and have a

serious conversation because there are many, many concerns.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

All I can say to you is if there are concerns, then we certainly want to address

them. If you have some of the

people who want to set up a time with me, certainly contact me and we will do

that.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, I will not take up your time here.

Just to say how unhappy I was at the time, I remain unhappy

and I do not think that the needs of the people in the deaf community and

hearing impaired community are being met by this government.

I know that the School for Deaf was not for the whole community, but in actual

fact it was for the whole community and it was the centre of the community that

has been lost for the community. I

absolutely feel the need of making that statement here tonight.

I do not know what else to say.

I will just leave it at that and say you will hear more from me.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

I do not have any more line questions.

Heading 3.4.01, Student Testing and Evaluation, there was a jump in salary last

year, a revision up from the $1.2 million.

What caused that?

MR. JACKMAN:

There is signing bonus for fifteen employees.

MS MICHAEL:

Fifteen?

MR. JACKMAN:

Fifteen, yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay.

Under Professional Services, there was a fair bit less than had been budgeted

and almost back up to the same amount.

Wouldn't the Professional Services be more or less the same every year

into this area, which would seem to be pretty straightforward?

MR. JACKMAN:

The reduction there was that there was change in the format of the Criterion

Reference Test; therefore, it was a reduced cost there.

Then, the other one, the $771,000 that is funding reallocated to Employee

Benefits.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, up to the $3,000.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, I see that.

I take it the Purchased Services here would more or less be the same as the

Purchased Services you have outlined in other places.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

It is no different for here then.

MR. JACKMAN:

No.

MS MICHAEL:

How many people are employed in this area?

MR. JACKMAN:

Under Student Testing and Evaluation?

MS MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. JACKMAN:

It is fifteen, is it?

MS MICHAEL:

Fifteen?

MR. JACKMAN:

I am sorry, nineteen.

MS MICHAEL:

Nineteen.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

Are they all permanent? No.

MR. JACKMAN:

No.

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Thirteen permanent, six temporary.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you.

Subhead 3.4.02, I think any changes are very, very small here.

This is the teachers' professional development.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS MICHAEL:

There does not seem to be intent here to allow for more money in this area.

As a matter of fact, the amount is down slightly from last year.

Why would it be down at all?

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

It is down slightly, about $33,000.

MS MICHAEL:

It is very slight, yes.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Approximately $33,400 and that is, again, last year where teachers, as you know,

as we discussed the 142 and the eighteen, this would have been an annualization

of that piece there. So you are

seeing a slight decline because of the five-twelfths of that less teachers.

MS MICHAEL:

All right. I know that the NLTA is

not happy with a lot of stuff around the time allotted for professional

development, but I again will not have that discussion here at this table, just

to acknowledge that I know what is being dealt with.

I think their concerns, which are public, we all know it is not private

information, but I think they have a serious concern that needs to be paid

attention to. So, Minister, I urge

you to listen to them.

They have not asked me to say that, by the way, but as a concerned person and a

past teacher, I do ask you to listen to them.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY:

Minister, there have been issues with respect to new schools being built and not

able to accommodate the numbers of students they are housing right now I use

that word intentionally. I am

thinking about Carbonear.

MR. JACKMAN:

Are you at a particular item or just commentary?

MR. KIRBY:

(Inaudible) on back to what we were discussing before, which was

CHAIR:

Subhead 3.1.07.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes.

CHAIR:

I would think you are generalizing.

MR. KIRBY:

Is there anything that has been changed in terms of addressing school planning

to better plan for schools so that we do not have modular classrooms in use with

new schools as much as we have seen?

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, we could certainly go out and build a school as an elementary school that

could house 2,000 students, but research would tell you that is not the way to

go. Therefore, we are constructing

schools that will house somewhere around 600 students.

The reality is in this particular area the population is growing so much

that we are trying our best to keep up with demand.

There is no doubt about it, if we had these two land issues straightened up, and

this third one, Portugal Cove-St. Phillips, we would be moving ahead on it, but

as you see this year in the Budget we are continuing with school construction.

We have a new development out here in

Galway now, as that moves forward we can expect there is going to be even more

demand. So we do what we can to

keep up with the pace, but we certainly have not shirked any responsibility in

terms of school construction.

MR. KIRBY:

Sure, but if the design of the school is for 600 students and you have an

additional number of students in modulars, then they are all at the same school

anyways, right?

MR. JACKMAN:

It is what?

MR. KIRBY:

They are all at the same school anyways then, right, because ?

MR. JACKMAN:

The modulars are only temporary, though, until we get these other schools

constructed.

MR. KIRBY:

Sure, I see what you are saying temporary, perhaps, like

MR. JACKMAN:

Three years.

MR. KIRBY:

Sure, but if you have a school that is K-3 or 4-6, that is a whole period of

schooling at that school site for some of our kids, right.

That is their whole

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

For us who are no longer attending school or in the school system, whether

students or teachers or staff or whatever, from the outside looking in I think

the reality is a little different than the inside looking out.

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, we find that people who move into these modulars really like them, but

still we are moving ahead with schools that will, in the end, house about 600

students.

MR. KIRBY:

I know what you are saying, and I am sure your intent is well, but when we have

issues like what we have already talked about with Paradise and Portugal

Cove-St. Phillips and not even having those land transactions straightened out

yet

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, if you can hurry up the Catholic Church I will be glad to accept what you

could do to help us out, but I will say

MR. KIRBY:

I am sure it is a tough job.

Seventy-five schools need to renovate, fifty minor renovations and twenty-five

major renovations to accommodate full-day Kindergarten.

Are we able to get a list of the schools that are included in the

seventy-five?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, I do not see any problem with that.

MR. KIRBY:

You have said that $30.6 million is required over three years for the full-day

Kindergarten?

MR. JACKMAN:

Right.

MR. KIRBY:

While we know that $1.5 million is for this fiscal, what would be the nature of

that $1.5 million?

MR. JACKMAN:

That will be your consulting work to do the groundwork for planning to say what

is going to be required in those seventy-five schools.

MR. KIRBY:

Do you have a figure then for what is going to be needed in 2015 and 2016?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, we do. It is $12 million, and

in the third year it is $16 million.

That $16 million in the third year includes the salaried positions, and

then on an ongoing basis it is around $13 million.

MR. KIRBY:

Is that $16 million a conservative estimate, would you say, or is that a

because I have done a lot of modelling on this myself, and that sort of seems to

be the lower end to me. I think

that number could potentially grow.

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, to tell you the truth, that is the best estimate we can make at this

particular point. We have seen

where some projects have come in for various reasons that you need additional

funds, but that is our best estimate based on all the information that we have

gathered.

MR. KIRBY:

It is lower than my lowest estimate.

I will just say that for the record.

Maybe I will be around and you will be around, and I can tell you so, but

we will see.

MR. JACKMAN:

No, you will not tell me so.

MR. KIRBY:

The inclusion model. Do you have

any analysis of how many IRTs we have and how many IRTs we need to accommodate

the inclusion model that you have?

MR. JACKMAN:

Well, we certainly know how many we have.

I cannot give you the number off the top of my head now, but I am certain

we can come up with the number that we have.

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Seven per thousand is the IRT percentage, and it is 330 pervasive units that we

have as well. So if you do the full

analysis of special education units, one in six teachers one in every six is

a special education teacher.

MR. KIRBY:

One in every six is an IRT?

MR. JACKMAN:

One in six is a special education teacher.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay, of some sort.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

As you know, and we will hear more about this in the coming days, but I listened

to the President of the NLTA speak on Friday night about more or less following

up on their pre-budget brief for this year about the NLTA's thinking

CHAIR:

Dale, I would remind you, we are getting down to about (inaudible) minutes away.

MR. JACKMAN:

I will say to you that I am in the process of setting up a meeting to meet with

Mr. Dinn on that exact issue.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

I have some further questions. I do

not where to ask this again sorry, we have this right?

We have this now?

OFFICIAL:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay, so I will not ask that question.

There are a number of curriculum reviews going on.

You said that the final year of the math curriculum, which I believe has

been making its way through the system

MR. JACKMAN:

It is the final year.

MR. KIRBY:

since the mid-1990s but was conceived in the late 1980s.

Is that going to be ?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, that is not right.

MR. KIRBY:

In 1987, I believe, that math curriculum was originally conceived.

MR. JACKMAN:

No. The new Pan-Canadian one we

went with, what year was that?

MR. KIRBY:

It began implementation in 1996 or 1997.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

No, the one that we have done here, the WNCP, or the Western and Northern

Canadian Protocol, I am guessing now that it would be probably 2008.

MR. KIRBY:

In 2008 that ?

MR. JACKMAN:

This new math curriculum started to come on stream.

CHAIR:

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

The first year we did Kindergarten, Grades 1, 4, and 7, then we went 2, 5, and

8, and 3, 6, and 9 and at the same time then we started the high school.

So this is the final year it will be K-12 implementation of the WNCP

protocol.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes. I misspoke, too.

It is 1997, I believe, if you look at the origins of that curriculum.

That is when that started to emerge, around 1997.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Well, I cannot speak to that. I

just know when it was adopted here, and it was certainly the curriculum that

many of the other provinces have adopted as well.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes. There is a raging debate going

on in the country right now about this particular curriculum.

I am just wondering, once we have gotten

to Grade 12 and everybody is doing it, are we going to have a review of that

curriculum or do we have to wait five years for that to happen?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN:

No, there is no plan to do a review in five years.

The latest curriculum that is being implemented, there is a debate not

only across the country, there is debate within this Province when I hear two

professors at the university debating it, but I will tell you that this program

is sanctioned by the mathematics people within the Department of Education.

MR. KIRBY:

In the Faculty of Education you mean?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, Faculty of Education. I said

department but faculty.

MR. KIRBY:

I have asked a number of questions over the past couple of years about the ISSP

and Pathways commission report. I

recently asked how much it cost and I was happy to get that information.

Has the Department of Education tracked how many of the seventy-five

recommendations of that report have been implemented to date?

I keep talking about the ones that have not been.

MR. JACKMAN:

Let me see if I can get it for you.

No, I do not have that here.

CHAIR:

Okay. Minister, can you supply that

to Mr. Kirby later?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

CHAIR:

Ms Michael, to clue up.

MS MICHAEL:

Thank you.

Under 3.4.03, Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation, my big question here

has to do with the Grants and Subsidies, which is going down by $178,000

approximately. Why would that drop

be happening?

MR. JACKMAN:

That is the same thing. There were

some positions that were impacted last year in that particular division.

So these are the annualized expenditure reductions because of the

positions that were taken out of that division.

MS MICHAEL:

Under Grants and Subsidies, what would the grants and subsidies be in this area?

Who gets the grants and subsidies?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

That is actually the teaching salaries for CDLI, and that would indicate the

reduction from last year's budget.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay.

The grants and subsidies go to the schools where these teachers are located?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

CDLI pays those directly through teaching services as well.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay.

I do not know how you assess this, is it by the number of individual students

who access the program or is it through the schools, or a combination of both,

that you assess the impact in terms of those who are involved?

Are they usually in groups in a school or do you have individuals?

Do you have some communities where you might even just have one child who

is accessing? I am just getting an

idea of the breadth of the program.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

In terms of CDLI, Ms Michael?

MS MICHAEL:

Yes.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH:

Yes, it varies. In terms of that

environment, you often do not have too many.

There is certainly a maximum, but you could have one student doing one

course in a particular school. We

currently have about forty courses and 103 schools involved in CDLI.

That could be a single student, and you could have two or three doing the

course as well.

MR. JACKMAN:

It is wonderful stuff they are doing.

I remember me being in school, it was primarily math and sciences.

Now we are offering music, art, skilled trades.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay. Yes, I heard about the

skilled trades.

How many schools did you say have the forty courses?

MR. JACKMAN:

It is