Manitoba Hansard — 22 April 2004 (Sitting 25, 38th Legislature, 2nd Session)

38-2-25

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LV No. 25 - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, April 22, 2004

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1067 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April 22, 2004 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Proposed PLA–Floodway Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The Province of Manitoba has tabled legislation in the Legislature that may result in the $660-million expansion of the Red River Floodway by the summer of 2005. The Premier of Manitoba plans to subject all work related to this project to a Project Labour Agreement (PLA).

The proposed PLA would force all employees on the project to belong to a union. Approximately 95 percent of heavy construction companies in Manitoba are currently non-unionized. The Manitoba Heavy Co nstruction Association has indicated that the forced unionization of all employees may increase the costs of the project by $65 million.

The chair of B.C.'s 2010 Construction Leaders Taskforce has stated, "Major industrial projects built under project labour agreements from the energy sector in Alberta to o ff-shore development on the East Coast have repeatedly incurred cost overruns, labour disruptions and delays." Organizations including the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Merit Contractors Association of Manitoba, the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construc- tion Association of Rural Manitoba and the Canadian Construction Association have publicly opposed the Premier's plan to turn the floodway expansion project into a union-only worksite.

Manitobans deserve an open and fair competi- tion that protects taxpayers from unnecessary costs and respects workers' democratic choice. Manitobans support the right of any company, both union and non-union, to participate in the expansion of the Red River Floodway. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Mani- toba as follows: To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending his Government's forced unionization plan of companies involved with the Red River Floodway expansion.

To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider entering into discussions with business, construction and labour groups to ensure any qualified company and worker, regardless of their union status, is afforded the opportunity to bid and work on the floodway expansion project. This petition is signed by Bruce Orbanski, Rhonda Block, Laurie Orbanski and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. Minimum Sitting Days for Legislative Assembly Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legis- lative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba Legislature sat for only 37 days in 2003. Manitobans expect their Government to be accountable, and the number of sitting days has a direct impact on the issue of public accountability. Manitobans expect their elected officials to be provided the opportunity to be able to hold the Gov- ernment accountable.

1068 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2004 The Legislative Assembly provides the best forum for all MLAs to debate and ask questions of the Government, and it is critical that all MLAs be provided the time needed in order for them to cover constituent and party duties. Establishing a minimum number of sitting days could prevent the government of the day from limiting the rights of opposition members from being able to ask questions.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Mani- toba to consider recognizing the need to sit for a minimum of 80 days in any given calendar year. This petition is signed by Auralee Bergado, Richard Bergado, Everton Griffith and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132 (6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. * (13:35) Highway 227 Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition.

It is unacceptable for the residents of Manitoba to travel the unsafe gravel roads of Highway 227 in the constituencies of Lakeside and Portage la Prairie. Inclement weather can make Highway 227 treacherous to all drivers. Allowing better access to Highway 227 would ease the flow of traffic on the Trans Canada High- way. Residences along Highway 227 are not as accessible to emergency services due to the nature of the current condition of the roadway. The condition of these gravel roads can cause serious damage to all vehicles, which is unaccept- able.

Residents of Manitoba deserve a better rural highway infrastructure. We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider having Highway 227 paved from the junction of highways 248 and 227 all the way to Highway 16, the Yellowhead route. To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider supporting said initiatives to ensure the safety of all Manitobans and all Canadians who travel along Manitoba highways. Signed by Barb Warburton, Bert Warburton, Valerie Bullock and others. Mr.

Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. Proposed PLA–Floodway Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The Province of Manitoba has tabled legislation in the Legislature that may result in the $660-million expansion of the Red River Floodway by the summer of 2005. The Premier of Manitoba plans to subject all work related to the project to a Project Labour Agreement (PLA).

The proposed PLA would force all employees on the project to belong to a union. Approximately 95 percent of heavy construction companies in Manitoba are currently non-unionized. The Manitoba Heavy Co nstruction Association has indicated that the forced unionization of all employees may increase the costs of the project by $65 million. The chair of B.C.'s 2010 Construction Leaders Taskforce has stated, "Major industrial projects built

April 22, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1069 under project labour agreements from the energy sector in Alberta to o ff-shore development on the East Coast have repeatedly incurred cost overruns, labour disruptions and delays." Organizations including the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Merit Contractors Association of Manitoba, the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construc- tion Association of Rural Manitoba and the Canadian Construction Association have publicly opposed the Premier's plan to turn the floodway expansion project into a union-only worksite.

Manitobans deserve an open and fair competi- tion that protects taxpayers from unnecessary costs and respects workers' democratic choice. Manitobans support the right of any company, both union and non-union, to participate in the expansion of the Red River Floodway. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending his Government's forced unionization plan of companies involved with the Red River Floodway expansion.

To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider entering into discussions with business, construction and labour groups to ensure any qualified company and worker, regardless of their union status, is afforded the opportunity to bid and work on the floodway expansion project. Signed by John Victor, Jo-Ann Koskie, Ron Koskie and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

These are the reasons for this petition: The Province of Manitoba has tabled legislation in the Legislature that may result in the $660-million expansion of the Red River Floodway by the summer of 2005. The Premier of Manitoba plans to subject all work related to the project to a Project Labour Agreement (PLA). The proposed PLA would force all employees on the project to belong to a union. Approximately 95 percent of heavy construction companies in Manitoba are currently non-unionized.

The Manitoba Heavy Co nstruction Association has indicated that the forced unionization of all employees may increase the costs of the project by $65 million. * (13:40) The chair of B.C.'s 2010 Construction Leaders Taskforce has stated, "Major industrial projects built under project labour agreements from the energy sector in Alberta to o ff-shore development on the East Coast have repeatedly incurred cost overruns, labour disruptions and delays." Organizations including the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Merit Contractors Association of Manitoba, the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construc- tion Association of Rural Manitoba and the Canadian Construction Association have publicly opposed the Premier's plan to turn the floodway expansion project into a union-only worksite.

Manitobans deserve an open and fair competi- tion that protects taxpayers from unnecessary costs and respects workers' democratic choice. Manitobans support the right of any company, both union and non-union, to participate in the expansion of the Red River Floodway. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending his Government's forced unionization plan of companies involved with the Red River Floodway expansion. To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider entering into discussions with business, construction

1070 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2004 and labour groups to ensure any qualified company and worker, regardless of their union status, is afforded the opportunity to bid and work on the floodway expansion project. Signed by Shirley Aitken, Pat Gagnon, Steve Hodgkinson and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 45–The Engineering and Geoscientific Professions Amendment Act Hon. Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): I move, seconded by the Minister of Advanced Education (Ms.

Mc Gifford), that Bill 45, The Engineering and Geoscientific Professions Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les ingénieurs et les géoscientifiques, be now read for a first time. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Labour and Immigration, seconded by the Minister of Advanced Education, that Bill 45, The Engineering and Geoscientific Professions Amendment Act, be now read a first time. Ms. Allan: Mr. Speaker, this bill enhances the ability of the Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists to promote the professions of engin- eering and geoscience and their continued develop- ment and to give financial assistance to others. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today Mrs. Kelly Stoney and Mr. Gary DeLaronde. Mrs. Stoney is the legislative page's, Carson Stoney's, mother. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. Also in the public gallery we have from Bemidji State University, Bemidji, Minnesota, 22 visitors under the direction of Mr. Tom Beech. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today.

ORAL QUESTIONS Province of Manitoba Administrative Costs Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, in last year's Budget, the Premier said that all departments would improve efficiencies to reduce costs. That never happened. In this year's Budget, the Premier again said his Government was committed to affordability by reducing administrative costs. In this year's Budget, administrative costs have gone up in the Justice Department, Labour and Immigration, Advanced Education and Training, Transportation, Government Services, Energy, Science and Technology, Mr. Speaker.

In Executive Council administrative costs for support for the Premier's office and Executive Council have gone up by $60,000, or 2 percent. * (13:45) Mr. Speaker, why, when this Premier said that he was not elected to raise taxes, did he choose to increase user fees and taxes by some $90 million? Why did he do that instead of tightening his belt to reduce administrative costs and make this Government more efficient? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, this Budget includes 400 positions that are being reduced in the direct public service. Those positions will be reduced through attrition.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The office also includes a 7% reduction in discretionary spending throughout the fiscal year which is in place in all government departments. We believe that we have a proper balance in terms of the initiatives we have taken. Mr. Speaker, we also want to say that the evidence again today, with the budget in Nova Scotia, illustrates one of the factors we have in our Budget, that there is, in deed, as the Conference

April 22, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1071 Board has pointed out, a fiscal imbalance in Canada. There are tremendous revenue advantages right now in one province, Alberta, and in the federal juris- diction. Many other jurisdictions in Canada are dealing with major changes in budgetary position to fund health care. We and the Conservatives of Atlantic Canada and Liberals in other provinces are dealing with fee increases and some tax increases. In fact, in Nova Scotia today, the capital tax went up.

We have dealt with the subordinated debt, which was a loophole in terms of that approach, but we think is more cost effective for the long-term economic benefit of Manitoba. Mr. Murray: In this Budget what we on this side of the House and I think what all Manitobans would expect is what is it that this Premier said. What is it that he said? Not Nova Scotia, not other provinces, but what is it that he said?

He instructed all of his departments to reduce discretionary spending by 7 percent, but last year in the Budget he said he was going to instruct ministers to go line by line and reduce expenditures line by line in the Budget last year. It never happened. The problem is it is this Premier that has the spending control problem. He has got a spending habit. Interestingly enough, Mr. Speaker, in this Government's own Budget, the Conservation Depart- ment, Administrative and Finance has gone up some 4 percent. Meanwhile, programs like Conservation, Environmental Stewardship have gone down.

What is really interesting is that when you get to Health, in his own Budget, at a time when we see this Premier putting $100 million into a new fleet of VLTs, at a time when in Manitoba we have the highest addiction and growing problem, the highest addiction in Canada; in here the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba program was cut. Why, when this Premier said that he was not elected to raise taxes and he was going to reduce administrative costs, has he done just the opposite? Why is that? Mr. Doer: I am just looking at the Conservative budget in Nova Scotia, and the spending is up.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. * (13:50) Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. They seem to be a little sensitive on the other side. Spending, I believe, has gone up over 5 percent in Nova Scotia and spending in Manitoba has gone up over 3 percent in this Budget. We think that, with the pressures in health care, we will show even an improvement. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you. Well, I can assure the member opposite that the people of Bemidji are not as rude as the Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler). Mr. Murray: Mr.

Speaker, this Premier has said that he was not elected to raise taxes. His Budget that he just introduced raised taxes more than $90 million. He has been saying that he will find efficiencies to save money, but administrative costs under his watch continue to rise. In his Budget, the Department of Education, Citizenship and Youth, and this one is shocking, admin costs have gone up some 9.9 percent. I would like to remind this First Minister that he put a 4% to 5% cap on administrative costs for school divisions. Why the double standard?

Why does he preach to school divisions when he cannot live within his own administrative costs budget? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I have just been given the numbers from the Addictions Foundation. I am informed the administrative lines are down and the program delivery lines are constant. Education Department Administrative Costs Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, on one hand the Minister of Education (Mr. Bjornson) orders school divisions to cap their administrative costs at 4 percent to 5 percent of their budgets.

Yet, on the other hand, we see in this Budget that his own administrative costs in the Department of Education have increased by some 9.9 percent. How can the minister justify a 9.9% increase in administrative costs in his department when he is ordering school divisions to cap their admin costs?

1072 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2004 Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, the members opposite want to start asking detailed Estimates questions. We are delighted that they are getting ready to go to the detailed Estimates but the macro perspective is this. Our program expenditure– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Selinger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is not a fishing expedition, but our overall increase in government spending this year is about 2.2 percent.

Our expenditures on a per capita basis are the third lowest in the country, and we have dedicated resources to health care, education, family services and housing. When it comes to education, four years ago when they brought in their first budget, they eliminated over 60 full-time equivalent posts within that department as they streamlined the operation of that department. They currently function with a shared deputy minister and they run a very lean department. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education said in a Winnipeg Free Press

article on January 28, and I quote, "This is a sustainable way of financing education." Does the minister honestly believe that a 9.9% increase in administrative costs is a sustainable way of financing education? * (13:55) Mr. Selinger: The amount of money going to public schools in the last five budgets has increased by $105 million. In addition, there have been improved property tax credits. The members opposite cut them by $75. We increased them by $150. We are the first government in the history of this province that has reduced the education support levy by over $37 million.

The total relief for taxpayers on education is over $92 million. The increase in provincial spending in public schools has gone up dramatically, and the formula has been improved to ensure there is more money for teacher professional development, more money for special needs kids and more money for equalization to recognize some school divisions have greater tax-raising capacity than others. We have improved educational financing all across this province. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I am astonished.

I am asking questions of the Minister of Education about his own department and he is not getting up to answer these questions. The Minister of Education stated, and I quote, "School trustees could avoid large tax increases through prudent planning." Mr. Speaker, I ask the Mi nister of Education: Does he consider it to be prudent planning to increase his own administrative costs by 9.9 percent? At a time when he has asked the school divisions to tighten their belts, why is he loosening his? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, the member opposite likes to dwell on detail but she has overlooked the actual numbers that are on page 59 in the Estimates of Expenditure, where the significant increase in education expenses is for the Aboriginal Education Directorate. This is an area members opposite ignored for 12 years. All people in this province deserve a proper education, including Aboriginal people. That is why that line has gone up. There is more money to support First Nations people getting a proper education in this province, something you ignored for 12 years. Budget Tax Increases Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, it is unfortunate that the Minister of Education (Mr. Bjornson) is not even allowed to speak for his own department. In its pre-budget submission, the Business Council of Manitoba, who represents Manitoba's largest employers, stated that competitiveness is the most important issue facing our province. They went on to state that, and this is from the Business Council, Manitoba's taxes are not competitive, new taxes are not warranted and tax reductions and gov- ernment efficiencies are essential components of improving Manitoba's competitiveness.

I would ask the Finance Minister to explain to the Premier (Mr. Doer), who says that he was not elected to raise taxes, why the Finance Minister com- pletely ignored the advice received from Manitoba's largest employers and imposed further taxes which will make Manitoba less competitive and kill jobs. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, the member comple tely overlooks the fact that we have reduced the corporate tax rate in this province for the first time since the Second World

April 22, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1073 War. The member completely overlooks the fact that we have changed the exemption for capital taxes to a deduction so no business pays any tax on the first $5 million of capital now, something members opposite ignored for 12 years. The member ignores com- pletely that we have reduced business taxes $74 million. The corporate rate has gone from 17 percent to 15.5 percent and it is on its way down to 14.5 percent. The small business rate has gone from 8 percent to 5 percent.

The band of income covered has gone from $200,000 to $360,000 and is on its way up to $400,000, surpassing anything they did in 12 years. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that the minister did not take time either to listen to the Business Council or to read their submission because it states quite emphatically, the corporate tax gap remains, and we urge the Government to initiate further reductions to provide Manitoba corporations with a more competitive tax structure. They have not ignored the tax rates like you, Mr. Finance Minister.

I would like him to explain to the Premier and to the business community why he has not only completely ignored their advice and their pleas to reduce taxes but in fact has done exactly the opposite and raised taxes by expanding the PST. Does he not understand he is stifling our economy and killing jobs? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, private investment in this province is at a historic high and that fact alone belies every statement the member opposite just made.

But if he wants facts, if he wants facts and analyses that will help him focus his thoughts, I would encourage him to look in the Manitoba Advantage on page 14 where the internal rates of return for small and large manufacturing companies in cities like Brandon or Winnipeg are among the best in the country. In other words, this province is the most competitive place to do business for manufacturing across the country. * (14:00) Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, I would remind this minister I am not making statements, I am quoting from Manitoba's largest employers.

These are their pleas for this Government to make this province competitive. I would urge this minister to pay attention. So much for a promise made is a promise kept, Mr. Speaker. We cannot believe anything this Premier or his Finance Minister tells us. The Doer government has indicated that they are unwilling to listen to the advice of the Business Council. Instead of raising taxes, why did this Government not make another choice, reduce administrative expenses, get a handle on their own expenses and make Manitoba competitive? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, it was just in the last session in the fall the same member was up asking us to spend more money, spend more money for agricultural producers, spend more money in health care. This member, one day, wants to spend more; the next day he wants to selectively quote briefs from certain organizations within this province. The facts are the following: The competitive advantage for manufacturing in this province is the best across the country for cities the size of Brandon, for cities the size of Winnipeg. We have reduced corporate in- come taxes. We have reduced small business taxes.

We have changed the deduction for capital tax from an exemption to a deduction. These are all measures the members opposite could have taken. They never did. We did. We made a real difference. Diesel Gas Tax Increase Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, back in September of last year the Premier (Mr.

Doer) stated, and I quote, "My position stands that we did not get elected to raise taxes." Then, in November of last year, two months later, the Premier states again, and I quote, "We did not get elected to raise taxes." Now, less than five months later, what does the Premier say to Winnipeg Transit when the diesel tax increases will cost an extra $95,000 per year for the City? Does he say raise the ticket prices to pay for this tax increase? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, fuel taxes in this province, second lowest in the country and our capital program– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, not only are the fuel taxes the second lowest in the country but our capital program for highways infrastructure is the highest it has ever been in the history of this province. That

1074 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2004 was at $120 million. This year, we have added an additional $10 million to that historic high number of $120 million. Next year, we are adding $20 million more for $30 million more over the historic high of $120 million. All of our motive fuel and gas taxes are dedicated to infrastructure and we are going to be accountable for that through new legislation. We will show Manitobans how we make their dollars work for them. Mr. Reimer: The Government is going to tell them how to spend the money. I like that line. Provincial Sales Tax Professional Services Mr.

Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, back in September of last year this Premier (Mr. Doer) stated, and I quote again, "My position stands that we did not get elected to raise taxes." Again, in November of last year, two months later, the Premier states, and I quote again, "We did not get elected to raise taxes." Now, less than five months later, we see the sales tax announced on pr ofessional services like accountants, architects, out-services that the City of Winnipeg uses. This will raise the cost to the City of Winnipeg of $1.4 million per year. Who is going to be paying for that? The taxpayers of Winnipeg.

Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, when members opposite raised or extended the sales tax back in '93 on baby supplies, on safety clothing, footwear and equipment, on school supplies, I mean they even increased taxes on sewing patterns, they said it was not a tax increase. The premier of the time said it was an extension of the tax base.

Not only that, when it comes to supporting municipalities, we are the only province in Canada that shares corporate and personal income taxes with the municipalities through the Provincial Municipal Tax Sharing agreement, the only province in Canada to share growth revenues with our municipalities. City of Winnipeg Funding Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): The minister mentions they are the only provincial government to share with the municipaliti es, but they are also the provincial government that is raising the taxes. My question is: You are raising the taxes for diesel fuel for Winnipeg Transit.

You are raising the taxes for professional services for the City of Winnipeg. Who is going to pay for that? The citizens of Winnipeg will be paying extra money to ride the bus and to pay on their property taxes for the $1.4 million on their professional services. Why is the minister going down this road? How is it going to support the city of Winnipeg better? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): In my previous answer, I pointed out we are the only province in Canada that shares corporate and personal income tax revenues with municipalities.

That commitment has been there since the time of Ed Schreyer, a very important commitment. Just a couple of weeks ago, the three levels of government, the provincial government, the federal government and the civic government, made a commitment to building a rapid transit corridor in the city of Winnipeg. Never before done, and it was with the co-operation of the three levels of government that we made that commitment to public transit infrastructure, something that has been on the books of the city of Winnipeg for at least 15 years.

This Government helped find a positive solution to improve public transit in the city of Winnipeg. Red River Floodway Expansion Master Labour Agreement Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, in 1999 the Premier said, "Elect me and I will end hallway medicine in six months with $15 million." After the election he said, "Well, that is what I said, but it is not really what I meant." After the Winnipeg mayor released his new deal, the Premier said, "I was not elected to raise taxes." Then, this week he said, "Well, that is what I said, but it is not really what I meant." Then, Mr.

Speaker, he proceeded in this Budget to raise taxes by over $90. First this Doer government says that a project labour agreement, forced unionization and forced union dues are a done deal . They are non-negotiable, Mr. Speaker. Then the Premier said that no, they are up for negotiation. This Premier's word has less and less credibility as every day goes by.

April 22, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1075 Now the Premier has been presented a solution from the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce that addresses all of his supposed concerns regarding the floodway expansion project. Will he do the right thing and adopt their solutions? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I have just had the opportunity to look at the education and citizenship lines, Mr. Speaker. In terms of the financial adminis- tration services in government, there is actually a reduction in spending in the Department of Edu- cation.

In terms of Human Resource Services in the department, or the Systems and Technology, there are reductions. Mr. Speaker, for the members opposite to make that claim, there is a major deficit in this province and it is a research deficit on behalf of the leader and that opposition party. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to once again remind all honourable members, if the Speaker is standing, all members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence. I also remind all honourable members that the clock is still running.

You are going to be getting less questions and answers, so I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. * (14:10) Mr. Murray: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. When it comes to credibility, this Premier should be very, very careful because it is he who has stated that he was not elected to raise taxes. He said that to this House. He said that to Manitobans and what did he do in this last Budget? He raised them by over $90 million. That is something that this Premier should remind himself before he answers questions.

The Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce has put forward a solution that addresses all of the Premier's supposed concerns about the expansion of the floodway project. The Chamber's solution sets out a process that would ensure there is no labour disrup- tion. It would ensure good wages are paid. It would ensure appropriate education, training and skills upgrade for new and existi ng workers are provided. It would ensure that contracts were let at the lowest cost to the taxpayers and for the ultimate goal of delivering the project on time and on budget.

Importantly, the chamber's solution would achieve these objectives without forced unionization and forcing non-unionized workers to pay union dues. Will the Premier please put aside the ideology of his union-boss friends and listen to what the public is saying? Stop forced unionization on the floodway project. Get on with building it. The Chamber has come up with a solution. Will he not listen to them? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we have advice from the members opposite for me to replace Mr. Fox-Decent in terms of their petition that they have been reading on the hour, every hour in the House.

We have the Chamber of Commerce today with some suggestions. We had on Monday a letter from one of the advocates on behalf of some of the private interests on the floodway, recommending that Mr. Wally Fox- Decent be appointed to have an independent role in this regard. All this advice is useful. The members opposite have different views than Mr. Lorenc, it appears, in terms of who should be involved in this. I have great confidence in Wally Fox-Decent. I ask whether the members opposite do. Mr. Murray: Mr.

Speaker, I believe it is the people of Manitoba that have no confidence in this Premier because he has bungled this whole project. We have what is one of the most important projects in front of Manitobans, and this Premier is now in a position where people like the Chamber of Commerce have to come together because they want to offer a solution to this Premier because he cannot figure out how to build a floodway without forcing people to be part of a union. All the Manitoba Chambers of Commerce and other members of the public are saying to this Premier is we respect the fact that people have the right to choose.

People have chosen. The heavy construction industry is 95% non-unionized. The Chamber of Commerce has come forward with a solution because they also believe it is important to get on with the building of the floodway. Mr. Speaker, will the Premier do the right thing? Will he listen to Manitobans? The Chamber of Commerce? Will he listen to the solution and take forced unionization off the table and get on with building the floodway? Mr. Doer: It is interesting, because about four questions ago they made a false statement about the

1076 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2004 Aboriginal training being an administrative cost. We know what they did to Aboriginal training. We know what they did to ACCESS programs. One of the key issues in the floodway for us, besides no strikes and lockouts, besides coming in on time and on budget, besides having a program that deals with recreation, is to have more participation with trained people and Aboriginal people in Manitoba. They do not give a darn about Aboriginal people. We care about them, Mr. Speaker. Red River Floodway Expansion Budget Mr.

Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Yesterday, the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton) tried to downplay the additional cost to building a floodway as a result of the new PST on professional services. He also tried to downplay the fact that costs for the floodway project have increased by $40 million before digging has even begun. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) says that there is no line-by- line budget for this particular project to speak of. Is there anyone on that side of the House who is standing up for taxpayers' dollars on this project? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, we have a number of reports from the IJC and our own reports dealing with the overall project in terms of the cost. One of the areas that is still being worked on, and we certainly will make availa ble to the House through our engineers, is some of the ground-water impacts from the building of the floodway in the mid-sixties. There are still some issues of aquifers in the northeast quadrant of the province, and we are concerned about that. We want to make sure that the design of the floodway expansion includes that total issue. Mr.

Speaker, the agreement we have with the federal government is for a $240-million stage. That stage will in essence, besides recreation, besides improvement of the gates to give us more protection in the summer, and some of the investments we have made in downtown Winnipeg and other locations, also include the ability to go from a 1-in-90 year– An Honourable Member: What does the IJC have to do with this? Mr. Doer: The Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) asked what the IJC has to do with it. He will note that the IJC had two different numbers with two different reports. I suggest he read them, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Goertzen: I think for the firs t time we have heard an admission from the Premier in the House that there really is not a budget for this project. He says he is going to come in on time and on budget, but there is not a budget. So I am pretty sure he will meet that low expectation. Mr. Speaker, in December of last year, the Premier was full of praise for the federal government for exempting the floodway project from the cost of GST.

Yet, yesterday, when the Doer government admitted that there will be a new PST applied to the project, they trivialized it saying that it will only amount to a few hundred thousand dollars. Can the Minister of Water Stewardship or anybody on that side of the House please tell us why there is such a two-faced position on this issue? Mr. Doer: As I said, there will be a recreation component of 1 percent of the expenditures. There will be improvements in the flood gates. It deals longer term with the sustainability of some of the investments in tourism, investments in the city of Winnipeg.

There will be major, major work to take us from 1-in-90 years to 1-in-270 years. That will give us protection from the 1827 or 1826 flood levels. We will triple therefore the capacity of the floodway with the $240 million. That is our com- mitment to the people of Manitoba. That is the budget we have with the federal government. I am interested, Mr. Speaker. I was curious to note in the paper on the weekend that there was an

article dealing with the federal government. In fact, it was Brian Mulroney that had had a labour management agreement to build the Charlottetown bridge. What side are they on with Brian Mulroney? Master Labour Agreement Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, this morning the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce released a solution piece to help clean up the Premier's mess regarding the floodway project and contradictory statements from the Government regarding forced unionization and forced union dues. Today we hear there really is not a finalized budget on this particular project. We are into another phase, praising one level of government for taking off a tax

April 22, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1077 and then applying their own tax. There is not a premier who is in more of a need of a solution than this Premier here in Manitoba. Will he take the lifeline that has been offered by the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce and try to regain the confidence thereby lost by all Manitobans on his mishandling of this particular project? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I am just looking at the petition, and there are some components that have been raised by the Chamber of Commerce dealing with the floodway which includes training. Mr.

Speaker, training– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I know training is a foreign concept to members opposite but it is– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is very important to us, and I am pleased that the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce has noted it as one of the issues to deal with.

Some of that training will take place hopefully with some of the skilled trades that will be involved and be able to provide apprentice- ship programs so that we not only have short-term training, but we have long-term skills left in our community because this is not the only construction project of a major nature that we are going to have in Manitoba. Unlike the mothball policies of members opposite, Mr. Speaker, we are going to build the floodway. We are going to get approval hopefully from the Clean Environment Commission and build dams and build this province.

We are going to build the province and build the future. The Flat Earth Society members opposite can raise all these issues. The Chamber position is different from the Tory petition. The Tory petition is different from Chris Lorenc's position. We will manage all that advice and get it done. * (14:20) Provincial Sales Tax Professional Services Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance in regard to the new taxes.

It is interesting to note that the Department of Justice's bureaucracy is increasing while at the same time we have this new tax on legal fees, some irony in that. My question is related to back in September of 2003. The minister was explaining the difference between the PST and GST inside the committee room and I quote what the minister said, "Average Manitobans would pay significantly more for the services and goods they receive, so that is considered a disadvantage which we believe still exists today." That was just last September, Mr. Speaker.

My question to the minister is: Why does he now believe it is no longer to the disadvantage of consumers to have this type of a tax put on to them? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, the short answer is because we have reduced personal income ta x rates. We have reduced the small business tax rate. We have reduced the corporate tax rate. We have reduced the ESL. Manitobans now, because of our economic and tax policies, have personal disposable income 5% more in the last five years versus a 5% decline in the 10 years before that. Manitobans are better off. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Finance, if you take money out of this pocket here and put money back in this pocket here, at the end of the day, there is less money that is going in the pockets, basic economics. Mr. Speaker, when you think of a consumption tax, the NDP– Mr. Speaker: Order. I have been standing here for about a minute trying to get the attention of honourable members. We only have so much time for Question Period and we are trying to get as many questions and answers in. When a Speaker is standing, all members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence.

I ask the co- operation again of all honourable members. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I do not see the humour in taxing from one pocket to another. At the end of the day, Manitobans are paying more taxes. When you think of a consumption tax, Mr. Speaker, the NDP would say that if you can afford to buy it or consume it, then you can afford to pay a tax on it. I would argue people at times have no option but to have to use a service, for example, legal

1078 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2004 services. This Government will be blindly charging hundreds of dollars in new taxes for a single parent experiencing financial difficulties that has no choice but to go through court pr oceedings. Will the Min- ister of Finance acknowledge that his tax grab on services will have a more negative impact on lower income people because this Government did not provide for any form of rebate? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, there is a personal tax credit in the Budget and all legal services that are eligible for legal aid will not have this tax applied to them.

Unlike the Liberal government, when we take $10 out of our left pocket and put it in our right pocket, it multiplies to $15. When they take $10 out, it shrinks to $5 because they bleed it off to their friends. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. We will now move on to members' statements. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Earth Day Mr. Drew Caldwell (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, today is an important day, not just for Manitobans, but for all people who inhabit this small planet.

It is the one day a year that we formally set aside to consider something so essential to our survival that all of us should be thinking about it every day. Today, Earth Day, all Manitobans are asked to think of our environment and specifically about the health of our all too fragile ecosystem. Why do we need an Earth Day? Mr. Speaker, we need this day because for the first time in the planet's long history one species, humankind, is dramatically changing our environment. Through human activities we are creating devastating changes to the planet's climate.

It is because of this very real threat of climate change that this Government has made the environment such a high priority. That is why yester- day we announced the Climate Change Community Challenge, the C4 program. This program, working in conjunction with the federal One-Tonne Chal- lenge, will challenge us and assist communities in Manitoba to reduce energy consumption, minimize waste and thereby reduce greenhouse gas emissions. This program will enable communities to work together to take action on climate change and will allow us all to walk more gently on the Earth.

In particular, I want to salute young people who have heard, understood and are taking action everyday to do their part to help save our planet. The C4 program is just one piece in our ongoing commitment to Manitobans to help them deal with climate change in real and permanent ways. Mr. Speaker, there is no more precious resource than the stuff of life itself, our water. Manitobans understand the importance of water and that it is our collective responsibility to ensure a safe and clean supply for centuries to come.

That is why we have created the Department of Water Stewardship, the first department solely responsible for the care of water in Canada. We know that Manitobans care deeply for their communities and for the wider world. Our record of international involvement speaks clearly about our water vision and we know that when we challenge communities to cut down on pollution, creating an easily accessible agency to help people cut waste or dedicating a government department to safeguard water and the quality of our water, Manitobans will respond because they care. Thank you. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr.

Speaker, I find it absolutely astounding that this Government will not have a ministerial statement on Earth Day, but we will make a statement. Mr. Speaker, I rise th is day to congratulate contributors to a healthy Earth. An

article written by Peter Holle, I believe, described the contribution made by scientists, businesses and the farmers. He singled out Dr. Norman Borlaug, founder of Green Revolution, who celebrated his ninetieth birthday this year. Mr. Borlaug developed wheat varieties that today yield 10 times what wheat varieties would have yielded during the sixties. Doctor Borlaug received a Nobel Prize in 1970 and is credited with saving billions of lives.

Many people will mark the day by cleaning up parks and yards and by planting trees, but the single most important contributor to our ecological health will likely be ignored, Mr. Speaker. These are the thousands of farmers that have adopted the tech- nology and science-based methods to improve and protect the soil and water of our Earth. The billions of dollars that farmers have spent to achieve a healthier Earth has largely been ignored. This action, however, has allowed, according to Conservation

April 22, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1079 International, nearly half of our planet's total land to remain as untamed wilderness. As Mr. Holle says on Earth Day, Mr. Speaker, let us take a moment to honour the contributions of modern farmers to this planet's health. Three cheers for the scientists, growers and middlemen who have simultaneously liberated us from hunger and pre- serving our open spaces. Thank you. Ukrainian Easter Celebration Mr. Doug Marti ndale (Burrows): Khrystos Voskres! Christ is Risen!

On Wednesday, April 14, I attended the annual breakfast of Ralph Brown School in celebration of Ukrainian Easter and brought greetings on behalf of the Minister of Education, Citizenship and Youth (Mr. Bjornson). Ralph Brown School is the site of the English-Ukrainian Bilingual Program for the Winnipeg School Division. This is an important time of year for those who are of the Christian faith. I was honoured to partake in the symbolic breakfast and beautiful ceremonies at the school. The morning began with the joyous and pleasant voices of the choir, followed by excellent traditional Ukrainian dancing.

Both of these groups performed under the superb direction of Mrs. Harkavy. It was an outstanding and impressive display of talent. Mr. Speaker, in the Ukrainian church during the time of Easter it is customary for the Easter baskets to be blessed. These special baskets symbolize family unity and the hope for a happy and prosperous year. They are filled with napkins embroidered with the most intricate detail and overflow with many delicacies such as Paska, butter, salt, ham, sausage, cheese, beets with horseradish, pysanky and Krash- anky.

Father Harkavy and Father Isidore were there to bless the Easter baskets before they were brought home by the children to be shared with their families. I want to congratulate the 135 students in the English-Ukrainian Bilingual Program and the principal, Mrs. Linda Bulka, for inviting me to their wonderful celebration of Ukrainian Easter. I would also like to congratulate th em for their hard work in decorating the gym, providing entertainment, putting together their baskets and learning about Ukrainian religious traditions by participating in this important celebration.

I would also like to thank the parent organization for devoting so much time in prepar- ation for this special day. * (14:30) Glenlawn Collegiate Theatrical Production Ms. Theresa Oswald (Seine River): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise in the House today to congratulate the staff and students of Glenlawn Collegiate for their outstanding effort in the recent musical production of The Music Man . I had the privilege of attending a matinee performance on March 25, 2004, with 40 seniors from Kirchhoff Gardens, a lovely seniors residence located in the Seine River constituency. Mr.

Speaker, the history of musical theatre excellence at Glenlawn Collegiate is undeniable. Students at Glenlawn have the option of enrolling in a credit course in theatre pr oduction and, as a result, participation in this large school enterprise is very high. Students gain meaningful hands-on experience in organizing, planning, constructing and producing a major musical with a cast of over 50 performers. The musical accomplishment is also expertly provided by many accomplished student musicians.

This year the orchestra was comprised of Trevor Robinson, Simon Christie, Chris Butcher, Heather Gardner, Gerard Modrzeje wski, Jessica Bernardin, Matt Gelley, Michael Kosowski, Denim Kehler, Leigh Fischer, Ron Krug and Paula McLeod, and indeed they were outstanding. The performance, under the musical direction of Marilyn Redekop and artistic direction of Maria Kives, was one of the most outstanding in the school's history. Jessica Strong, in the role of Marian, charmed the audience with her award-winning vocal talent, while Evan Sapach, as Harold Hill, clearly had charisma to burn.

The skillful and engaging performance of the quartet, comprised of Ben Campbell, Emily Walker, Kim Van Aerselaer and Jordan Day, were a favourite of the residents from Kirchhoff Gardens. It must also be noted that several moments of the show were virtually stolen by Kevin Kristjanson, an imported Grade 6 student, in his role as Winthrop. The list of students with significant lead roles is deep. Congratulations are due to Jamie Guidolin, Jillian Sandison, Kevin Parsons, Matt Mihaychuk,

1080 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2004 Kate Jestadt, Richard Hornung, Michael McDermid, Buffy Cowtan, Lindsay Hammond, Simon Walker, Lora Peters, Kelly Stokotelny, Emily Northam, Micheline Lessard-Lesk and Ryan McDonald. The success of all the lead actors was beautifully supported by the townspeople, the kids, the dancers, the salesmen, the wa tan ye girls and the ladies' auxiliary. In all, the production of The Music Man was one that made all members of the community very proud. It is worthy to note that all the seniors were treated with dignity and respect. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Flooding (Fisher River) Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Communities in the Interlake are recovering from recent flash flooding, Mr. Speaker. Flooding on the Fisher River in the Interlake caused the evacuation of over a thousand people to neighbouring communities. Water levels in ditches and drains have receded but not before causing significant road damage and resi- dential flooding. Mr. Speaker, the people of the Fisher River Cree Nation and Peguis First Nation battled the rising Fisher River with full fo rce.

Flooding forced the closure of schools and the transfer of patients to Winnipeg hospitals and the transport of elders to other communities. The Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Lath lin) and I met with the chief and council of Peguis April 7 to assess the situation and were impressed with the community response. Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize and thank some of the people who worked to evacuate people and protect communities. The Manitoba Association of Native Firefighters sk ilfully co-ord inated the evacuation of over 900 residents to Winnipeg and surrounding communities.

Working with Department of Transportation crews led by Len Huff, MANF also cleaned out ditches, culverts and ice jams at bridges to improve water flow. The Department of Water Stewardship provided regular and ongoing flood forecasts and Manitoba Emergency Measures Organization maintained close contact to provide assistance and information. Thanks to the many volunteers from the com- munity, who have done outstanding work as part of the flood control efforts.

Under the skillful guidance of flood co-ordinator Colin Williams, over 350 community members have been working continu- ously at sandbagging and now at cleaning up flood water. The work of Glen Gulay, Eugene Ratt and Robert Slater in aerial photography was especially significant. Mr. Speaker, as water levels recede, the clean-up efforts continue so that people may return as soon as possible to their homes. Once again, we have seen communities and individuals rise to the challenge of protecting their friends and neighbours from harm's way. Thank you.

ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS ADJOURNED DEBATE (Fourth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: Resume debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Official Op position (Mr. Murray) in amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable Minister of Industry, Economic Develop- ment and Mines (Mr. Smith), who has 23 minutes remaining. Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, to continue on, balanced budget pays down the debt and avoids using the Fiscal Stabilization for the first time since it has been introduced here, in the province of Manitoba. I can tell you, Manitobans, in a tangible way have noticed the differences that have been brought in to each and every budget over the last four years, certainly on positive growth in our economy. Mr. Speaker, when you take into consideration the amount of jobs that have been created in this province over the last four and five years, doubling the amount that were created through the nineties.

You take the number of 3100 jobs created per year by the previous government. You look at our record of 6500 jobs being created. It is obvious, 100% increase in jobs for Manitobans. What is notable about the creation of jobs ce rtainly has been that the large percentage of those jobs, well over 80 percent, have been full-time jobs.

April 22, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1081 Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair When you look at a per capita basis and you take into consideration, I know the members opposite have mentioned in Question Period about affordable government. Well, on a per capita basis this province is rating third on its expenditures right across the nation, on a per capita basis on the cost to taxpayers on government services that are delivered. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it is because of the rationalization and the efficiencies that this Govern- ment has created since we have been elected in '99, compounding year over year by the budgets that have been introduced by this Finance Minister for Manitobans. It is beginning to take a serious effect on positive sides when people notice, certainly, that Manitobans today, their purchasing power is 5 percent better than when we were elected.

That is a considerable amount in a short period of time, considering under the previous government over a decade through the nineties, the purchasing power for Manitobans decreased by 5 percent. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the purchasing power that we have initiated and brought back, has actually given Manitobans approximately 10% more expend- able money in their pocket through the initiatives that this Government has taken in a short five-year period. When you look at the Nesbitt Burns report, I think it is something that most Manitobans can relate to.

When you take into consideration people work day after day on economic research and research right across the nation, when they put Manitoba as having one of the best financial plans on a move- ahead basis, that is both transparent and certainly easy for Manitobans to understand. When you pay down the debt, which Manitobans can relate to their own hom es, year over year, when you have a mortgage and you have other costs and things that are important to you and you pay that down. That is important to Manitobans.

When their personal wealth increases and they can expend that money on other things that they would like to have, they can relate to that. Certainly, that is exactly what Manitoba has done. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this Government, unlike the previous government, has reduced the debt year over year, and, certainly, combined with that, the pension liability. The government opposite, the Tory government, had taken and swept under the rug, and let accumulate and grow y ear after year after year. People can relate that you cannot take outstanding loans and then not pay on them.

The compound interest on that alone over the year s under the previous government had become so unmanageable that if this Government had not been elected in '99 at a time when it was, Manitoba would be facing crisis right now under the previous government's financial planning. Mr. Deputy Speaker, sticking to a Doer government's initiative, certainly, on a doable, long- term plan that is predictable and transparent and easy for people to understand and follow is something that this Government has worked very hard at. Under this Finance Minister, we have seen historic job growth.

We have seen historic amounts of personnel coming back to Manitoba, young people coming back to Manitoba because of a vision that we have had, in part economic planning, in part an economic strategy that I can tell you is really beginning to work. * (14:40) People are starting to see it. When you see numbers of people coming back to Manitoba, population growth of 7584 people, members opposite have said that is not a lot. The reality is there was a decrease in population growth throughout their entire 11 years that they were in power.

It is the highest level now since 1986 on people coming back to Manitoba, both interprovincial, international, and when we look at those numbers and the 15-to-24s that are coming back, 1055 more young Manitobans came to Manitoba than left. That is the best number in 20 years. When you look back and you think who was in power at that time, it was an NDP government. During those years, there was economic growth and there were job gains and full-time job growth, as well as population growth in Manitoba. Again, we are seeing it. After the dark days and the disasters of the nineties, we are finally turning it around.

We have taken education and made it affordable for families in decreasing the costs of education and post-secondary and maintaining and keeping that. It has given families the ability to be able to afford to send their families to school to have that education. It is a no-brainer, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is a simple strategy, but the other government would not do that. Not only would they not do that

1082 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2004 and make it affordable for families to come out and have people with a higher education that obviously creates wealth in a provin ce by having better-paying jobs and assisting business in the province to grow and expand and compete on a world-wide basis, the other government did not do that. Not only did they not do that, they did not re-invest in any of the capital. They let our universities and our colleges begin to deteriorate and other provinces have an advantage. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we now have an advantage of that re-investment into the capital at historic levels both in post-secondary and in K to S4 of rebuilding that system, giving young Manitobans the ability to go learn and come out with an education and come into a workforce highly trained, highly skilled and being part of a system that supplies intellectual development and quality to business to compete against anybody in the world. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the challenges in the past year with the BSE, obviously in transportation where we had the issue of SARS, we had the second-worst fire season ever in Manitoba's history approaching on $60 million of costs and expenditure. Still, this Government, still this Premier (Mr. Doer), the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) and the members on this side of the House were able to adjust what is crucially important for Manitobans. The health care system has improved; the educational system has improved; the vision for young people to stay in Manitoba has improved.

More people are coming from other parts of the world, in fact, coming to Manitoba at levels that we have not seen for 20-odd years. The personal income taxes are decreasing for people that are coming and there is more expendable money to spend on things that they believe are important for their lives. Those are tangibles. Those are things that people can relate to. Mr. Deputy Speaker, y ear after year in our budgets we have set the bar very high and we have set a challenge certainly to the departments.

Depart- ments are holding the line and, in fact, a number of the departments, 12 departments, are looking at actual cost decreases. I can tell you the economic strategy on a growing economy is enabling us to do that. Last year, as difficult as the year was, we had a 1.9% growth exceeding the national growth of about 1.7, and that is a positive. That shows Manitoba's actions. The actions that we have taken in so many areas are certainly in economic growth and the things that are important to Manitobans.

People realize it, people look at it, and certainly people from other provinces are looking at that as well, $311 million dollars annually cut on personal income tax for Manitobans, which does go back into the economy and does create wealth for many others. People in small business, people in large business and certainly inner trade is more positive when there is more money in the economy. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, when you take a small- business person in Manitoba, which is the backbone of the small business and certainly of the business community in any province, in any state, anywhere in the world, and you take tangibles of their 8 percent on the small business tax rate, reducing it year after year after year down to 5 percent now and then down to 4.5 percent moving ahead, small businesses notice, recognize that and appreciate it. That allows small business to reinvest in their businesses, to hire more people, to put that money back into the economy and move the economy ahead.

Moving the threshold and rising with that threshold for small business up to $400,000 a year from around $250,000 a year for that tax threshold has been critically important. When you take large corporations and large business on the capital purchases of those large businesses and not tax capital purchases until after $5 million, that is probably why we have seen historic levels of capitalization of business in Manitoba, even though we have had challenges with America, certainly with the rising dollar for our Canadian dollar, which does impede international trade, does impede trade with America.

We have seen capitalization in small business. We have seen it with large business. We have seen it with municipalities. That is a sign of confidence in the economy. Any economist in Economics 101, when you see large capitalization in any industry, in any business, it is a sign of stability and it is a sign that there is a stability in the economy that people respect and understand and know that there are not going to be surprises moving ahead. Promises made are promises kept. This Government has done it year after year after year, even with the challenges that we have had on a difficult financial year.

Being proud to be one of the

April 22, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1083 few provinces or states in North America that will truly balance the budget in this fiscal year has been an achievement that Manitobans, small business and everyone within our borders has recognized. Mr. Deputy Speaker, $74 million annually since 2000 and continuing to fall in small business taxes is a considerable amount of dollars. Small business recognizes that and they k now it. When you see, as the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger) has mentioned many, many times, and members opposite have said, oh, it is not being competitive; it is not moving ahead fast enough. Corporate income tax at 17 percent has sat here since the Second World War. As we have reduced the corporate income tax for the first time in 50 years in this province, it is going to fall to 14.5 percent after 2005, an incredible decrease in corporate income tax. That is recognized as well by large business. Certainly, the equipment and business increase of 50 percent on income tax and depreciation rates is also recognized. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we have done this with challenges. Certainly, we have been able to take and maintain an affordable government. The elimination of the 400 staff through attrition, saving $30 million, has been well recognized. It has been something that this Government has trimmed, that we have cut. We are doing more with less. Certainly, the employees in the province of Manitoba should be commended for that. They do an excellent job. In the 12 departments that, in fact, the reduced spending will happen, we will have challenges. We are up to meet those challenges and we will do it. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, a further $32.5-million reduction in the Province's borrowing costs, which I might add are among the lowest in the country, has been achieved year after ye ar after year through the diligence of this Finance Minister with the hard work of the people in that department, in Finance, working under the direction of the minister to reduce those costs. Those have been considerable.

The milestones that I will highlight: the housing prices in Manitoba generally are up 24 percent since 1999; the disposable income in the last year alone has risen by 3.1 percent, outpacing the national growth; the lowest inflation rate in Canada, with the lowest hydro rates and the lowest automobile insur- ance rates in Canada, is being maintained; over 1000 young people coming back to the province, as opposed to in the years in the nineties losing approximately the same number of 1000; the popu- lation rate growing, the highest that we have seen since 1986; and the numbers of doctors is at a 10- year high, the numbers of nurses graduated has tripled since 1999.

Those initiatives Manitobans recognize each and every day in their lives. * (14:50) In creating more opportunities for young people to support and stay here in Manitoba, obviously, the support for colleges and universities is up 3.5 percent, instead of decreasing as the previous gov- ernment did many times throughout the nineties. The funding for public schools is up $17.6 million. The fifth straight year funding has been increased at or above the rate of economic growth. A promise made, a promise kept in education.

Mr.Deputy Speaker, new support for Aboriginal education, and our English as a Second Language, Special Needs, and libraries, certainly does help to support our immigration qualities that, quite frankly, have been spectacular in this last number of years, working with the Minister of Labour (Ms. Allan) and her department. We know there are challenges ahead. We know that the challenges in health are immense, and we are seeing it in many other provinces where, in fact, the challenges in health and th e cost increases in health are rising at near-double-digit figures. This Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) has brought our health care system and turned it around, left hallway health care way in the background, that we inherited from the previous government. It is making commitments to Manitobans on reductions and wait times and doing it at one of the best rates. Although we have funded health care at historic levels in the province since we have been elected, we are now bringing it under control where our health care costs, because of the efficiencies that have been created through the Minister of Health worki ng with the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger) under this Government, are setting the examples for the rest of Canada in many, many areas. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I can tell you that health care remains critical to Manitobans. It remains the number one issue for Manitobans, and certainly we have seen a turnaround in health care of historic

1084 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2004 levels on expenditures. We saw it in Brandon, where the Regional Health Centre in Brandon that was promised seven times throughout the nineties by the previous government, people in Brandon were let down. The plan and the work that the health care minister did, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the diligence that was done, the planning of the overall health care budget, which now is about 42 percent of our budget line, all of the things that were important to Brandonites started to materialize.

Now, just a short time ago, we had a ribbon-cutting at the Brandon General Hospital. The reeves and mayors were invited from the entire surro unding area. The health care support workers from the surrounding area, the nurses, the doctors, the x-ray techs, the support staff in the hospitals, were there to cut the ribbon, and I heard comment after comment after comment, "We never thought we would see this happen after so many promises were broken through the nineties." The accolades for the health care minister, the accolades for this Government on that $60 million commitment, that we followed through.

In moving ahead, with that in our Budget, the MRI, the first one outside the city of Winnipeg, will support people that are in the entire south-west region of Manitoba. No longer will they have to continue to come into Winnipeg, bring their families into Winnipeg, travel great distances; it will be right at home, right in the southwest region of Manitoba. We know there will be more MRIs, going into the future. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I commend this minister. I commend the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) and the hard work that was done to bring this Budget forward for Manitobans.

It is the reason that we are seeing headlines saying now, Manitoba cheaper to do business than anywhere else in Canada except in the city of Edmonton. You did not see those a few years back.

The initiatives year after year after year are ranking us as one of the best places in Canada to do business for many, many reasons: the reforms in health care; the support for young people; the educational system and th e backing that we now supply Manitobans; the reduction in personal income taxes; the reduction in small business taxes; the reduction in corporate income tax; and a better quality of life for Manitobans, even through very, very difficult times. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the partnerships that we have developed with small business and with large business and certainly with working people in Manitoba, of every walk of life, has been well noted. It has been inclusive and it has been done, certainly by this Government, to include all people. Critically important, Mr. Deputy Speaker, has been the protection of water and our environment, and today, on environmental day, the new support for Lake Winnipeg and the Stewardship Board to work towards reducing harmful nutrients into the lake could not have come at a better time. Funding is available.

In fact, the new department created simply to look after the water that is so critically important to Manitobans, for Manitoba ns and for our future; a new 10% tax credit to encourage business to invest in odour control equipment. Further funding of livestock management to address and inspect and the enforcement in that area. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, moving ahead with that water stewardship and creating and having a depart- ment, one of the first in North America to simply look after one of the critical elements of our life support and putting money where our mouth is, is certainly important to Manitobans.

Manitobans have told us that. It supports families, it supports children, it supports elderly and it supports everybody in the walk of life. Just in closing, I congratulate the minister on this motion. Certainly, I am supporting it as I do know most Manitobans support as well. Thank you very much. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Who stood first? The honourable Member for Morris. I am sorry, the honourable Member for River Heights. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise to reply to the Budget and to discuss the Budget that was tabled by the NDP government earlier this week.

First, I think it is important to face up to the fact that last year's Budget was not a balanced budget. Last year, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the NDP budget projected expenditures of $7.25 billion, but, by the time the end of the year had come, the Budget shows they actually spent almost $7.4 billion, more than $135 million over budget. Overall, the provincial government spent more than it raised so the pro- vincial general purpose debt has risen by $54 million.

April 22, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1085 Liberals believe the NDP should have shown the integrity to reduce ministers' salaries by 20 percent as required in the balanced budget legislation when the government has a deficit. To have used a Tory loophole, to have squirmed through a Tory loophole is abhorrent. When we have a Liberal government, we will eliminate that loophole. It is a bad Tory loophole. Mr. Singleton would go further than I in looking at the extent of the deficit, because he tends to refer to the consolidated operations of the Government including the Crown corporations.

Well, if we do this, there is a whopping increase in the size of deficit this last year in consolidated operations. This deficit in consolidated operations a year ago was projected to be about $110 million for this past year but, in fact, looking at the budget papers we can see clearly that the deficit this past year on consolidated operations was more than $500 million. That is a deficit greater than $400 million more than budgeted. That is called missing the mark by a long way. If the Budget was a promise, it sure was not a promise kept. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Premier (Mr.

Doer) and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) may make all sorts of claims about this year's Budget, but promises and performance did not match last year and we really do not have expectations that they are going to match this year. How can we believe they will not raid the rainy day fund next year when they raided it last year for $143 million? * (15:00) Mr. Deputy Speaker, we anticipate, when the track record from this year is completed, that the NDP will likely overspend again. Their credibility is getting poorer. The predictions that they are making are getting farther from the mark.

The irony is that the situation last year would have been far, far worse if federal transfers to the Government of Manitoba had not increased by $287 million. Almost daily, the Premier chastises the federal government in the Legislature. Ironically, he was saved last year by substantial help from the federal government. As it was, his performance and his Government's perfor- mance were terrible. They are just very lucky that the federal government came to their aid so that it was not a lot worse. Let us look at health care, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is over budget again, by about $40 million.

The NDP cannot manage budgets very well. We have seen this year after year . This year the NDP are taking it out on the sick who need medicines by raising Pharmacare deductibles. I have spoken up against this 5% rise in Pharmacare deductibles. It weakens the Pharmacare program. It targets those who are sick and who need medication. There are far better ways to reduce drug costs, in particular, using better approaches to en suring drugs used are effective and are prescribed only when really needed.

It is just one area of heal th care where there is huge room for improvement in management, which has been sadly lacking. Let me give you another example. The NDP have been very poor at investing in the Manitoba Health Research Council to underpin innovation and improvement in health care to improve standards, to find new ways to do things. The budget for the Manitoba Health Research Council is just the same as it was 12 years ago. It went down and up a little bit, but it is the same now as it was in 1992.

Moreover, when the funding through the Manitoba Health Research Council should be improved to spur the innovation needed, should probably be about 0.5 percent of Manitoba's health care costs. They are presently far too low to promote the kind of inno- vation, research and improvement that is really needed in the way that the health care system is managed. When it comes to rural health care, there are many rural communities which have concerns and many of these concerns are only enhanced by recent reports. Let me give one example.

The community of McGregor has wanted, for a number of years, to switch from a hospital to a local health care centre promoting health. They have been trying to do this for four years, and they have been stonewalled every month, every year, every day, by this NDP gov- ernment. A community which wants to move ahead is being stonewalled. What kind of an example is that to rural communities? A very poor example by this Government, where a community wants to move to a wellness model. No, we are not interested in that. When they say that to McGregor, they say that to every community in this province.

We are not interested in moving to a wellness model. We are not interested in moving away from the old model. You can forget about that. We are going to stonewall you as a community if you want to try that.

1086 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2004 When it comes to promoting healthy living, this is a government which talks but does not act. One of the fundamental components of healthy living is sports and fitness and bette r lifestyles. Overall, the program funding of this Government, excluding the debt, has gone up by 21 percent over the last four years since 1999, but the funding for sports and fitness has remained the same, in fact decreased slightly this year. It seems an odd way to promote healthy living by decreasing support for sports and healthy activities.

It is a sorry government that cannot do better than this. The Government, the NDP, should be ashamed of themselves. They should be embarrassed to have brought forth a budget where they talk about healthy living and decrease the funding for sports. My goodness, what a government which cannot get its priorities straight. In education funding, this year the Government miss ed a golden opportunity for major change. There is needed a huge change and overhaul in the way education is financed in this province.

We have argued for a number of years that there should be 80% provincial funding, but the Tories took it down from 72 percent to 62 percent and the NDP have taken it from 62 percent down to 57 percent, and I am sure, when everything is said and done, at the end of this year it will be less than that. The Government has decided not to act. We see, because of the approach that they are taking, they are offloading once again on school boards and local school taxes will have to rise, and that will affect people all over Manitoba.

When it comes to the environment and to water stewardship, we see an in crease in the budgets for administration and conservation. We see a big increase in the budget for administration in Water Stewardship. Mr. Deputy Speaker, yesterday I said it was 47 percent, but I miscalculated. I must admit it is actually an 88% increase in administrative costs for the Water Stewardship Department, an 88% increase for the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton).

Well, it is a sad day because, when we look at the details of the rest of the Budget, the Minister of Water Stewardship has reduced funding for fisheries and water quality services by $463,000. He has reduced the budget for surface water management by 6 percent since 1999. He has reduced the budget for ground water management by 9 percent since 1999. He has reduced the budget for aquatic ecosystem management by 15.5 percent since 2001. This is hardly a reasonable approach to improving the stewardship of surface and ground water and aquatic ecosystems in Manitoba.

Indeed, it is a sad and sorry day to see this is happening. The minister is hiring or bringing in more people for his administrative bureaucracy, and at the same time reducing the critical services that Mani- tobans actually need to improve the quality of the lakes and the water systems in our province. I talked about Lake Winnipeg. It is now in worse shape than it was when the NDP were first elected in 1999. There was a big spread the other day, demonstrating and documenting how it is worse than Lake Erie in the 1970s.

It has gone from bad to worse under this Government and so far they have done little. * (15:10) Killarney Lake, an important lake, was so bad last year that it drove away tourists. It was so full of algae blooms that it was not possible to swim in it in a reasonable fashion. There was a smell. There were problems. People from Killarney and people who live around Killarney Lake have been calling for help, for a meeting with the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr.

Ashton), since early January, but he has not seen fit to have a meeting or to visit Killarney in spite of the fact that the request has been made since early January. When it comes to taxes, we have heard the Premier (Mr. Doer) say on numerous occasions, "I was not elected to raise taxes." This has been repeated over and over and over, until it has become the mantra of this Government. Day after day after day we have heard, "I was not elected to raise taxes." Well, we just have to look at this year's Budget. The Premier is raising not one tax, but all sorts of taxes and all sorts of user fees.

Is it any wonder that the credibility of this Government is going down the tubes? The Premier is so desperate he is even raising taxes on women who need legal help to get child support. Due to legislation, not all of which may be bad but some of which has problems on maintenance enforcement, people are going to need more legal help than before, but that is going to be taxed. That is the style of this Government. We will push you

April 22, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1087 where you have no choice to get services for which you are going to be taxed. We are going to grab those taxes, says the NDP government. The Premier is raising taxes on justice. Raising taxes on those who seek legal help to have justice, to right a wrong, to get human rights. This Government is raising taxes on fundamental justice. What an extraordinary move. The Premier is so desperate that he is raising taxes on those who choose to use legal means to try and improve the environment, to protect the environment.

"Oh, no, but if you want to do good things, we are going to tax you," says the Premier. You know, one of the ironic things, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is that the Premier was listening to some of the things that Glen Murray was saying about decreasing certain business taxes and increasing consumption taxes. Well, the Premier grabbed Mr. Murray's clothes while he was swimming and he has presented them on budget day. The Premier has not helped Winnipeg, but he sure has done his best to try to help himself and his bureaucracy and his administration costs. What a way for a premier to act.

Glen Murray had the due thought to consult with people, to talk to people, to give them an idea of where he was thinking of going and to having a whole series of town hall meetings, which had a vigorous discussion. Oh, but the Premier and his Finance Minister, oh, no, they were not going to let anybody know that they were going to tax legal services, that they were going to tax justice, that they were going to tax those who want to help the environment, that they were going to tax families who need legal help to help their children.

Overall, curiously, for a lot of businesses there may be a decrease in business tax from 5 to 4.5 percent, but an increase in the retail sales tax of 7 percent for a lot of these is going to offset or more than offset that. So the Premier and the Finance Minister in the way they have organized this, you know, have probably done a disservice to a lot of businesses, and I am hearing that and I hope that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) is also hearing that. When it comes to farmers, the Budget raises taxes on legal and accounting services, on the diesel used by truckers for transporting farm products.

But the reduction in education tax on farmland will not start until 2005, because the NDP government this year has unloaded costs onto school boards. This means that local school bo ard taxes are rising and most farmers can expect to see an increase in the education tax they pay. It is sad that the NDP's Budget makes the situation worse for lots of farmers in this province instead of better. Mr. Speaker in the Chair When it comes to cities and the city of Winnipeg, the Government talks about housing.

But a comparison: in 1999 there was a budget for housing of $42 million, and when we look this year and the housing budget in this Budget, now maybe there are some other things hidden elsewhere, it is about $28 million. They talk a lot; they deliver so little. It is a sad and sorry day for Manitobans. Young people. It fails to create a real vision, to have steps to improve things for young people. And rural communities. There is a lack of approach to help with tourism, local economic development, museums, heritage buildings and so on. Well the NDP spent more to put people in jails, they spent less on heritage.

The capital budget for heritage buildings has decreased from $300,000 in 1999, to $210,000 in the present year. Either figu re is clearly inadequate, given the importance Manitobans place on heritage and the need for attention to heritage buildings. Mr. Speaker, we believe there is a better way. I believe there is a better way to manage the Province’s finances.

We also believe that the Budget should have provided clearer direction for the province by better matching spending to critical priorities, like healthy living, like cleaning up Manitoba’s lakes, like preserving and restoring our heritage as well as providing a clearer vision for economic growth and for attracting people to Manitoba. We see that Manitoba can be a magnet for young people. We see that much can be done that is better than this Government is doing. Even in health care, so many of the recommendations of Romanow and Kirby still remain not done. So, Mr.

Speaker, I now move, seconded by the MLA for Inkster,

1088 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2004 THAT the amendment be amended by adding thereto the following words: And further regrets that th is Budget also ignores present and future needs of Manitobans by: (

j) failing to set priorities well and to manage fiscal resources well; (

k) failing to reduce minister's salaries by 20 percent in recognition of the deficit incurred in the last fiscal year and the resultant increase in the general purpose debt of Manitoba; (

l) failing to support improvements in water stewardship and instead increasing administra- tion and bureaucracy while failing to provide adequate support to surface and ground water management and fisheries and water quality; (

m) failing to provide adequate attention to healthy living by failing to provide adequate attention to sports funding in Manitoba. * (15:20) Mr. Speaker: The amendment is in order. It has been moved by the honourable member for River Heights, seconded by the honourable Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), THAT the amendment be amended by adding thereto the following words: And further regrets that this Budget also ignores present and future needs of Manitobans by (

j) failing to set priorities well and to manage fiscal resources well; (

k) failing to reduce ministers' salaries by 20 percent in recognition of the deficit incurred in the last fiscal year and the reluctant increase in the general purpose debt of Manitoba; (

l) failing to support improvements in water stewardship and instead increasing administra- tion and bureaucracy while failing to provide adequate support to surface and ground water management and fisheries and water quality; (

m) failing to provide adequate attention to health living by failing to provide adequate attention to sports funding in Manitoba. Mr. Bidhu Jha (Radisson): I rise here to speak on Budget 2004, presented to this House by our brilliant Minister of Finance, the Honourable Greg Selinger. [interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sorry, but I just have to make a correction that I made. When I was in k., it should read: (

k) failing to reduce ministers' salaries by 20 percent in recognition of the deficit incurred in the last fiscal year and the resultant increase in the general purpose debt of Manitoba. That is how it should read. That is the correction I am making. It was my own error. The honourable Member for Radisson, to continue. Mr. Jha: Yes, I would like to speak on the Budget 2004 presented to this House by our brilliant Minister of Finance, the Honourable Greg Selinger. I congratulate this great minister for his courageous and bold step in presenting a budget which is balanced as per the balanced budget legislation.

Needless to say, this minister has been trained in the world's best school of management, called the London School of Economics. Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chair This Minister of Finance has demonstrated his skills of really being a Doctor of Philosophy. His professional skills, his pass ion of social justice and his philosophical commitment to our party's ideals have delivered the best possible budget at this time, when we are faced with BSE crisis, forest fires and several other challenges.

The manufacturing sector has faced a lot of hurdles because of the higher dollar, but this minister has done a remarkable job by making a budget that is balanced and has purpose for all people of Manitoba. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this is my first experience in this Legislature, and I must say that listening to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) makes me understand why this party is sitting on that side of the House.

I understand that the role of opposition is to ask questions on the Government's policies and issues, but as a new MLA, I have yet to hear and listen from the Opposition concrete advice where we are working together to solve a problem that is good for all people of Manitoba.

April 22, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1089 Mr. Deputy Speaker, I was expecting during the BSE crisis that the Opposition would walk with the Minister of Agriculture, go to Ottawa, go to Wash- ington, D.C., and work to open the borders for the people suffering in the province of Manitoba. Other than that, I heard several times the request for cash advances. Now, cash advances is a solution, but that will also need revenues to come and, when the cash advances are being given, then the Opposition will try to say that you have a spending habit. So I think, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, as a new rookie MLA, I am astonished to see and hear contradictory suggestions from that side. I have heard the Health critic many times on the individual tragic cases happening in hospitals. As much as this is a very sad thing for all of us, to bring such issues time and time again onto the floor speaks of politicking and also the dignity of the families and of the departed souls. I feel very sad that such issues are brought onto the floor of the House and the political tone is not fair and dignified.

No one likes to see waiting lists, but I must say that, very firmly, to fix a health care system takes time. It takes time to train a doctor. It takes 10 years to get a doctor trained in the school, starting from the first year to the specialization. It takes a number of years for the nurses to be trained. They are not like French fries that you put potatoes in the oven and you eat. So I think it is a very serious matter that, when you build things, it takes times to build and after the period, then you see the results. We started training doctors and nurses and now we will see the results. I remember, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, 1996 when I lost my brother. My brother passed away waiting for surgery when I had my best friend in the medical system here. They could not help because the wait line was too long. I had two children; they were medical doctors, and I remember my daughter was saying that she may not find a job here because, at that time, all the nurses were fired and medical practice nurses were really scared of living in this province. It was, I believe, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the hidden agenda at that time was Americanization of medicine in Manitoba.

So I was very shocked with that approach and I decided, that was the seed of my anger, to enter politics. This is something I say for the record that when I decided to run it was basically the fear that I had about he alth care being eroded by Americanization. I must say that in the Radisson constituency when I heard of a Tory candidate called Dr.

Linda West, who was working with Connie Curran at the time to fix our health care system in this province by firing nurses, closing hospitals and bringing a new system of Americanization of hospitals, private hospitals, hospitals for profit, that made me realize that I am not going to sit quietly and think that it will be all right. So I moved and I said no. I said no to that sy stem, I said no to that candidate, and I am glad to report that the constituents of Radisson said no to that particular health activist that was trying to bring Americani- zation to Canadian medicine and particularly in Manitoba.

I think there are a lot of things that this Government has done and this Minister of Health has done, which is remarkable. I like to say that the new state of the art Brandon Regional Health Centre recently opened is to prov ide enhanced services to the Westman region. Brandon is to receive the first- ever MRI outside Winnipeg.

Significant health care projects have been completed and are on their way in the northern centres including The Pas, Thompson, Swan River, Garden Hill and Churchill; dialysis treatments closer to home for northern residents; additional resources for Manitoba wait times reduc- tion plan, which builds on such recent investments as new CD scanners in Steinbach, Boundary Trails, Selkirk; and radiology suites in Beausejour and Pine Falls. So all these actions had been taken by the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) which he must be commended for, and the Government must be commended for.

I think there is a new hope rising when these nurses and doctors have been trained in hospitals. Within a few years, there will be more doctors, more nurses to practise, and the burden on the doctors who are having a stressful time now will be alleviated. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think the whole approach, which you see, is towards progress, towards a very positive approach to solving a very serious problem of health care. * (15:30) We have seen, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the scientific culture of this province, universities, has brought brilliant scholars that are wonderful

1090 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2004 scientists working now in Manitoba. We must say that it is the world-class virology lab which is headed by a world-renowned scientist, Dr. Frank Plummer, who is respected not only in Canada but throughout the world. That is right here in Manitoba. We have brilliant research scientists at the university motivated to work. Manitoba, again, is the province that the future generation will look ahead and will thank this present government.

The Budget speaks loud at the Government's fiscal management skills by optimizing human resources and not replacing 400 workers, that positions are being frozen or cancelled. This Budget has addressed issues of economic plan by giving business tax reductions of $74 million annually since 2000, and continue to fall. Mr. Deputy Speaker, let me, for the record, state that it was under the then-NDP government that the seed of the film industry was sowed right here in Manitoba, which is today pretty close to a $80- million industry.

I would like to go on the record that this man, myself, was the first producer of a 35- millimetre theatrical release film in the history of Manitoba, and it was in 1984 that I produced a feature film that was released throughout the globe. This industry today is prosperous and we are enjoying when we see Hollywood stars coming to the city and we celebrate, and Winnipeg's name is now all over the world. This takes vision. Anything that we do in the society takes vision. It is hard work and the results do not come instantly. It takes time.

The film and video production tax credit enhancement to include rural and northern initiatives, to encourage film activity outside Winnipeg, will attract more film makers to come to Manitoba. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I know that these kinds of actions, which are futuristic, take money, energy, guts and time, but only if you look ahead, unless you look for future, you are a short-lived, short-visioned government that will be a bandage treatment to a cancer patient. So I think I am very, very pleased to see that the direction the Government has taken is in the right direction.

The Budget has been balanced in the time that it is extremely difficult to really see where to cut and what not to cut, but we have done a remarkable job and I commend the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) again for his remarkable job. I think that the raising of the families, Mr. Deputy Speaker, always look ahead. When you have a family and you look for your children's future, education, their health, you need to see what is ahead, what will be 20 years from now, not what is happening today. So I think that the visionary plans that this Government and the Premier (Mr.

Doer) have, specifically the Premier's vision of future alternative energy, is something that the future generation 50 years from now will remember. The creation of the Department of Energy, Science and Technology is an example of this vision. I think this department, which will look at the new energy alternatives which will generate an alternative sus- tainable growth to the province's resources, is again very visionary. I must say, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that looking at the plans of energy enhancement of development of new hydro, new dams, a lot of people will think: Why are you doing this when we have an abundance of energy. We are export ing energy. We are pre- serving energy. We are looking at the future. We are not trying to fix it now and make things look better and the future dark. That is the difference between a government which has a vision and a government that wants to short-live and literally sell the soul to privatization and society be literally not a fair, equitable society. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, my comment is that we have an abundance of resources, and water being one of the scarce resources on this Earth is something that again this Government has demonstrated by bringing the new Ministry of Water Stewardship, which is led by Minister Ashton. He is a minister that gets things done. I am very happy to see the response on this floodway expansion that Minister Ashton has led. This is going to be, again, a historical thing, to have Manitoba clean water to use, safe water to drink and protect the Earth's most valuable resource. That is water. I think, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that a lot of my colleagues have already spoken on the highlights of the Budget. I will not waste the time of the House by repeating those. All I would like to say in conclusion is that this land of ours called Manitoba today is small. We have a million-plus people. Fifty years from now, God knows what will be the size. I think the generation then will remember this Government. Future generations will remember this Government, which has laid the plan, the blueprint, the vision for

April 22, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1091 development of Manitoba to be a province that will be a prosperous province, that will be a province that will be a place for people to move to, dream to come and live in and live a quality of life that we all deserve. I truly endorse this Budget, Mr. Deputy Speaker, which is not only brilliant, it is the most difficult time, balanced budget. I again commend the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) and the Premier (Mr. Doer) for leading all our co lleagues to have this Budget passed in this House. Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I would just like the opportunity to put a few words on the record about this very bad Budget. I feel like I am sitting through a rerun of a very bad movie. I never liked the movie before and I do not like it any better now. Unfortunately, I know how it will end, and I do not like that either. Mr. Deputy Speaker, how many of you remember the six disastrous years in the 1980s that Howard Pawley's NDP governed Manitoba? The current Premier remembers. He was a Cabinet min- ister in that government.

In those five short years the NDP more than doubled the provincial debt, a debt that had taken over one hundred years to accumulate and was doubled in just five years. After throwing money around like confetti at a wedding, the NDP then did what they do now. They tried to borrow and tax their way out of debt instead of controlling expenditures. As they approached the 1990s, Manitoba recognized that the NDP were driving Manitoba's economy into the ground and that a weak economy threatens th e social safety net. So they voted in Gary Filmon's Conservatives to clean up the mess.

Filmon's PCs got the government's financial house back in order, balanced the budget and passed legislation to force it to stay balanced. By 1999, Gary Filmon was able to project that over a billion dollars of new revenue would be coming into Manitoba as a result of the Conservative government's initiative to stimulate the economy. He was right. The new money and more came in as predicted but unfortunately the wrong Gary was premier when it arrived.

So the current NDP gov- ernment got a free ride for a couple of years, coasting along on the money generated by the Conservatives and rather than using the money they received in a responsible way, they squandered and wasted it until they could see that they would soon be in trouble. They called an early election last year when they began to see the handwriting on the wall. They wanted to go to the people while the people still believed that the economy was remaining good before it sank in, as it will begin to do now, that all is not as rosy as the NDP try to pretend it is. But the NDP still did not get it, Mr.

Deputy Speaker. They cannot spend your way out of debt. You cannot tax a nation into prosperity. That is what they are trying to do; ba lance the books on the backs of the people instead of handling their money properly. They have resorted to their usual solution: Tax, and tax in mean-spirited ways, through the back door and indirect, hidden attacks that eat away at the fabric of our province. * (15:40) The Government will tell you, for example, that it has imposed no new burden on farmers. Yet certain professional services will now be subject to PST. Farmers will feel the negative impact.

Has the NDP considered what this new PST will do to farmers? Farmers have to pay legal and accounting services. Now, after suffering through drought and grasshoppers and BSE, farmers have to pay 7 percent extra now for accounting costs. They will face increased costs as well because of the increased tax on diesel fuel which truckers transporting their grain and livestock will now have to charge. Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is interesting to note that while farmers and other consumers will now have to pay PST for professional services, those engaged in collective bargaining will not have to.

Why are union negotiations exempt and farmers' operations not? Well, maybe the answer is self-evident. The lack of commitment to the farming community may come from a lack of understanding of the complexities of the agricultural industry, or it may come from a lack of caring. But, whatever the reason, the lack of commitment stands out as a glaring indication of what farmers can expect from the NDP. They can expect to feel abandoned. The most miserly and mean-spirited hit in this Budget is the increased deductible for Pharmacare. Please do not tell me it will cost just a little bit more.

When you are poor, you do not have a little bit more. What this means is that there will be people who will decide that they just cannot afford to buy their

1092 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2004 prescription medication. If you do not believe that, then you have no empathy for or realistic under- standing of those who are struggling. Seniors, people on fixed incomes and families who have high pharmaceutical costs are feeling nervous about the implications of this change. Is it the start of a gradual chipping away of this essential program? This is a program which should be moving to provide increased, not decreased, benefits. In today's world, pharmaceutical advances have made it possible for patients to live longer and healthier lives.

As research progresses, there would be more and better pharmaceutical discoveries cap- able of sustaining life and improving life quality. Will these drugs be affordable for all those who need them or only for those who can pay for them out of their own pockets? This cu t in Pharmacare benefits affects the most vulnerable of our citizens. It is an area of essential need. Why did the NDP choose this particular program to attack as a cost-cutting measure? One becomes increasingly concerned, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as the NDP looks around for places to find money.

The Government simply never considers the idea of not spending. It is the best way to find money. Instead, the NDP goes after the things we need to be sustainable, like the rainy day fund, the things we need to protect for the benefit of consumers, like Manitoba Hydro and the essential programs in health like Pharmacare. What concerns us, what alarms us is that the obsession to spend is always there. Never is it fully addressed. Like addicts who struggle with the curse of their addiction, the NDP does not recognize the full extent of this problem.

These NDP MLAs do not see that during their brief tenure they have undone much of the true good that was created during the Filmon years. They do not recognize the ultimate harm that their tax-and- spend mentality will do to this province. I know a person who works in the demolition business. He and his co-workers can demolish a building in a very short time. I also know many people who work in the construction industry. They are builders. Anyone who watches demolition and construction jobs will tell you that it takes longer to build than it does to destroy, longer to renovate than it does to tear down.

Just as it takes a long time to build and a short time to destroy, it takes longer to undo harm than it does to undo good. When the NDP runs out of coasting time and the real results of their actions are revealed to Mani- tobans, the people will ask us to come back to government and build things up again, and we will. The trouble with having to constantly rebuild is that building can be a messy process. It is a lengthy process. It requires strength and endurance and an ability to keep the vision of the final creation in your mind as you work.

Sometimes the status quo, the familiar, old habits, are easier in the short-term. The NDP think this is the short-term time. Manitobans can see this in the Budget. There is no vision, no direction, no long-term understanding. To be perfectly plain, today's NDP spent tomorrow's money yesterday. When tomorrow comes the NDP and their supporters will ask what happened and then spend more money on public relations to find some way to blame someone else for the troubles facing this province. We know what these tro ubles are. We have read this script before.

These troubles emanate from high spending, high taxes and intrusive socialistic govern- ment which over-regulates, undervalues and drives away entrepreneurs. Socialism cannot exist unless those who generate wealth are able to produce and create the wealth for the socialists to tax. It seems counterproductive to alienate those producers and have them settle in other, more business-friendly places. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think many of my socialist colleagues here in this Chamber mean well. Socialism is, after all, a benevolent theory which has only one major drawback. It does not work. History shows us that.

What would happen if all the wealth creators disappeared or a ll the producers closed down their factories and businesses? I could imagine the resulting chaos. I do not think the NDP can. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the NDP is going to claw back property tax credits, and it says it will give the balance directly to school divisions. With what criteria and conditions, may I ask? What controls are in place?

Have the NDP not already made it close to impossible to get school taxes under control by its own handling of education underfunding while at the same time imposing amalgamations of mismatched school divisions, with all the costly harmonization of

April 22, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1093 public-sector collective agreements, programs and policies that that entails? The NDP, Mr. Deputy Speaker, with its simplistic view of life, think that because some mergers work then all mergers will work. The NDP think that central control always works better than local control. They do not investigate variables or make pragmatic decisions. They do not do their homework on forced amalgamations.

Do they not understand that commercial companies will make decisions to merge only if they expect to achieve cost reductions through synergies, pooling of sales, general administrative expenses resulting in reduc- ions of staff? They make these decisions after careful cost-benefit analysis and market study. They can decide if an amalgamation should proceed or not. Moreover, they go to choose their partners. A merger between company A and C may not work, while a merger between company A and F might. Not doing such analysis has a real potential to see costs go up as well as down.

As the taxpayers are beginning to find out now, central planning, where the bureaucrats have the only input into legislation that affects everybody, does not work. People want to be involved. Look at Bill 40, The Planning Amendment Act; Bill 22, The Water Protection Act; Bill 23, The Red River Floodway Act; look at forced unionization on the floodway project. No input from the people affected because Big Brother thinks he knows best. * (15:50) Taxes are going up under this Budget.

The increased taxes will not be offset by other tax cuts the NDP referred to in their budget speech, because some of these cuts were made in previous years and some will not take place this year but rather some time in the future, maybe. Mr. Deputy Speaker, as Tom Brodbeck stated in The Winnipeg Sun on April 20, "Once you take out all the spin, half-truths and outright lies from the NDP's budget, you will see the overall taxes are going up more than $70 million this year." I think that is $90 million this year. Overall provincial debt will rise by $800 million to an unprecedented $19.3 billion.

We have more money coming into Broadway and yet this Government continues to spend more than it receives. That way spells disaster, but like the captain of the Titanic, the NDP cannot see beyond the tip of the iceberg. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Government here should review what happen ed not that many years ago when New Zealand hit the wall. Better still, it should take a long, hard look at what New Zealand had to do to recover its crisis. But then not many people watching a movie ever think that bad things they see on the screen can happen in real life.

The really pathetic part of this whole bad movie is the ugly scenes never had to take place. The NDP started their tenure with a wealthy revenue stream and tran sfers from the federal government had increased substantially, but there is a reason the phrase "tax and spend" was coined to describe the NDP. It seems to be in their very nature. They could not use this new revenue in a responsible and realistic manner because the NDP have never learned how to reduce costs or how to control their urge to spend. We still are not through the scary part of the movie yet.

The NDP has based their economic forecast on a rosy future that includes, among other things, an 8.6% increase in retail sales tax this year. Many have already expressed worry about the projections are unrealistically optimistic and allow no room for any unforeseen expenditures, no room. We need to hope even more than we usually do that no forest fires or floods will challenge our province this year, that no federal recession will occur, that there will be no substantial decrease in our revenues.

We need to hope that more than ever, because the NDP have drained our rainy day fund, robbed our Manitoba Hydro Corporation, and is now caving in to its addiction to taxing. John McCallum, a highly respected economist and professor at the University of Manitoba, has stated, "I don't see this Budget as a plan to stop the bleeding we saw last year. I think a year from now we will find out it will even be a harder budget to balance." Joseph Barnsely, of the Manitoba Chambers of Commerce, echoed that concern when he said, "We are starting with a bloated government budget.

This Government has grossly overspent in the past. Unlike in the past, this Government now has to demonstrate it has the will and the skill to control spending. To demonstrate both will and skill, the Government must first possess them." This Government wants to increase the costs of a major, important project in Manitoba solely to satisfy

1094 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2004 its own ideology, and to support the union bosses that fund the NDP. I refer, of course, to the forced unionization of workers on the floodway expansion. This issue, with its blatant revelation of fanatical devotion to ideology, reveals a defining difference between them and us. We show respect for individu- als. The NDP do not. Workers should not be forced to join unions if they do not want to.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-2-25
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 2nd hansardpdf 25.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ff22fb6c2a48f7169cfcacd8d3280ef263db2194

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