Volume XL Tuesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 72 3 December 1985

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! I would like at this stage to welcome to the Visitor's Gallery a former member of this hon. House, John McLennan. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I would like to rule on a point of order the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) raised in relation to the unparliamentary language in the resolution submitted by the Premier last week. Where unparliamentary language is used in the House, a member using the offensive expressions is required to· withdraw the expression.

In this case, however, the unparliamentary language was contained in the resolution. I have ruled that because of the unparliamentary language the resolution could not be included on the Order Paper and I refused to put the motion to the House. It was, in effect, treated as a nullity and therefore in this situation I do not think it appropriate or necessary to require the Premier to withdraw the words included in the resolution he gave notice of. Under the Notice of Motion given by the hon. the Premier yesterday I rule the motion is in order and it is printed on the Order Paper today. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: About the point of privilege raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, there is no prima L3890 December 3, 1985 Vol XL facie case of breach of privilege. But reviewing the comments in the context of the debate, the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) used unparliamentary language in that he imputed bad or unworthy motives on the part of the hon. member for Mount Scio - Bell Island (Mr. Barry) and he said, in effect, "Mr.

Speaker, the day that I use this position as a member of the House of Assembly for Burin - Placentia West to represent those constituents, then charge them for that action, that is the day, Mr. Speaker, that I believe I am misusing the privileges and rights of the people who sent me here. " To my mind there is a clear imputation there. I call on the hon. member for Burin - Placentia West to withdraw that imputation. The hon. the member for Burin Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, exactly what you read is what I said. At no place did I refer or infer anything as it relates to the Leader of the Opposition.

However, if that fact is not parliamentary, I will withdraw it. Statements by Ministers MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I am announce government's No. 72 pleased to support for R3890

the development of community television productions using the facilities of local cable systems. Cable require television that cable regulations operators and provide use of the reserve a equipment channel, for the operator, community groups and individuals to produce and deliver to the community television programming about or of interest to the community which the system serves. However, most of the community channels have remained underutilized, mainly because of a lack of experience with television .production, but also because of a lack of awareness of the community channel itself.

A project has been initiated by the Education Television Centre at Memorial University, in conjunction with my department, which will provide cable operators, and organizations within the communi ties which they serve, with basic training in te le vi sion p roduct ion. Th ey wi ll be inst ru cted in equipment sel ecti on an d use, and will be introduc ed t o p roductio n tec hniqu es an d concep ts4 Workshops will be held in Happy Valley - Goose Bay, Port Saunders, the Winterton-Placentia area, Grand Bank and Gander.

Personnel and equipment will be provided by the Educational Television Centre and government, through the Communications Division of my department, will provide funds for the instructor's travel and accommodation. Mr. Speaker, while the financial commitment is small, I see this project as an important initial effort in making available more L3S91 December 3, 1985 Vol XL local informational, educational and entertainment television programming to residents in the Province.

Over the long term, Mr • Speaker, the use of the community channel can greatly increase the availability of more meaningful , locally-produced programming on television. This project will also provide an opportunity for young Newfoundlanders wishing to pursue a career in television to take advantage of the free training programme and exposure which is available through the community channel. The project should result in greater participation and awareness of community affairs, as programming reflecting the community becomes available. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMB ERS: Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR . EFFOR D: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications (Mr. Russell) for giving me this statement in advance so I could study it. I do not see the necessity of bringing this report forth in a Ministerial Statement. I thought that he had brought this up in debate pretty well word for word just recently in the House in debate on a cable television problem. I have to commend him on the fact that it is a worthwhile project to bring this programme forward as No. 72 R3891

initiated by the Educational Television with his department. It is certainly necessary for this Province to get more into community development and communication. It is also necessary to spread it over Labrador and over the areas of Newfoundland S? that people in all parts of the Province can take

part in the training and in tire -­ development. Certainly the development of local or community programming could be a very significant educational and cultural contribution to the Province. However, I am surprised that the minister has taken so long and is applying so little into something so important as this. He says here we are playing a small part, but he should realize that it is not a small part we should play in development of communication on the community channels on this Island. We have been too long without this. It is a very· important part of our educational system. It plays an important

part in communities realizing more of their problems and getting their problems across the Island and across the Channel much more quickly. So I hope that this will certainly be a start for the minister and his department and instead of playing a small part, they will go to a much developing communications. Thank you~ greater this SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: level part The hen. the Leader of Opposition. in of the L3892 December 3, 1985 Vol XL MR. BARRY: I meant to start before we got into Orders of the Day but the minister was on his feet and I did not want to interrupt him.

I wonder if the Premier, in the absence of the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) , would give an indication of whether a unanimous resolution might go forward of congratulations to the new Premier of Quebec, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of that tremendous Liberal victory in that Province yesterday? SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: And also, Mr. Speaker, I think it is appropriate that a similar message of congratulations go to Mr. Joe Ghiz, soon to be the new Liberal Premier of Prince Edward Island - SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

BARRY: for tremendous victories in two by-elections in which were formerly those districts Conservative Speaker. strongholds, Mr. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I congratulated the Quebec. MR. SPEAKER: have already new Premier of Order, please! At this stage I would like to welcome to the gallery Mayor Blackmore and Deputy Mayor Robert King from Windsor. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Bear, hear! No. 72 R3892

oral Questions MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier whether government's decision to try and close the House in an unprecedented fashion on Friday, before completing, Mr. Speaker, the legislative agenda which is before this Bouse - it is obvious that we will not get to complete all of it - I wonder if the Premier would indicate, Mr.

Speaker, whether his eagerness to get out of the Bouse might have anything to do with a poll which he recently had carried which indicates that there is the same surge of support for the Liberal Party in this Province as we have seen in Quebec and in Prince Edward Island? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, back a couple of months ago we took the unprecedented step of trying to outline to the ' Opposition ahead of time the legislation that would be available, and make it available to the Opposition as quickly as we could get it drafted, as well as the legislation of the Accord.

The Opposition saw fit to spend fifteen sitting days, twenty-one days all told if you take in the weekends, on one bill in the Bouse. I indicated early in the Fall that we wanted to sit until early December. We are keeping our commitment to try to make the House operate more efficiently, L3893 December 3, 1985 Vol XL but the Opposition obviously are not prepared to co-operate in that and want to spend as long as they deem it necessary talking and repeating themselves over and over again.

In the same context, bills go through the House of Commons on twice as much money in half the time, and it is just not appropriate and just not right that the Opposition would spend fifteen days on one bill knowing in advance the number of bills that we had. We had plenty of time to take care of all the legislation. As it relates to the poll, I am sorry to inform the Leader · of the Opposition that the reverse of what is happening in Quebec and PEI is happening here from the poll that we have just had completed. MR. BARRY : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

BARRY: We would be delighted, Mr. Speaker, to have the Premier table that poll. MR. TULK: Yes, and test it. MR. TOBIN: Why do you not tell us about your reception in Alberta? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I had a tremendous reception in Alberta. I raised more money for the Alberta Liberal Party than I think has ever been raised before in the history of this country, probably more than any single fund raising effort has No. 72 R3893

ever raised for any political party. Mr. Speaker, what I would like to ask the Premier is will he not in all fairness admit that over the last five days in this House there have been more bills passed than in any similar five days in this House, apart from the last day when traditionally a great flood of legislation takes place as government tries to cut off debate? The last five days, I will ask the Premier to admit, have seen complete co-operation on the part of this Opposition to make up for the incompetence of the planning of members opposite.

They give us a list of legislation which included the Accord, which included other matters, and then they do not come forward with the legislation. Admit that you are getting out of this House because you are feeling the heat. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Is this a good example of the way the House is going to operate? The Leader of the Opposition gets up on a supplementary, makes a

preamble and gives a speech when he was supposed to ask a supplementary which allows for neither

preamble nor debate. I would ask for the protection · of the Chair in the asking of questions so that they confine themselves to what the rules say in Beauchesne and in the Standing Orders. Now, Mr. Speaker, I cannot help it if the Leader of the Opposition is L3894 December 3, 1985 Vol XL trying to make up for the fifteen days that they spent on one bill. He cannot now suddenly say that in the last five days they co-operated and therefore that is supposed to make up for all the incompetence on the part of the Opposition for fifteen days on one bill.

I am very sorry if that is the way the Leader of the Opposition feels.--- Fifteen days on one bill is unprecedented in itself. Talking about five days on co-operation, how about the fifteen days when they did not co-operate? Mr. Speaker, as for raising money out in Alberta, I think the Leader of the Opposition would do well to make sure that the Liberal Party of Newfoundland has all its bills paid before he goes to Alberta. SOME HON.. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

BARRY: I wonder would the Premier be prepared to have the bills of his party tabled? We will be happy, Mr. Speaker, to table the bills owing by this party if the Premier opposite is prepared to do the same. We are prepared to show our financial position. Now let us see the Premier table his bills. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: I might say, Mr. Speaker, that the debate that took place in those fifteen days was debate that was badly needed. We got no answers. No. 72 R3894

PREMIER PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: The Leader of the Opposition is debating, not asking a supplementary question. I would ask for the protection of the Chair in the asking of questions so that we can be consistent with the rules of the House. MR. BARRY: That is a new question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the point is well taken. I would ask the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to pose his question. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, the question I would like to ask the Premier is: In light of the fact that we now have a new Premier in Quebec, would the Premier commit to arrange to meet, at the earliest possible opportunity, with Mr. Bourassa, to start working on a resolution of the Upper Churchill dispute and to try and expedite further development of hydro power in Labrador? The Premier has promised to do this for years and we have yet to see any action taken by the Premier. Jobs could be created by starting a further hydro project in Labrador. Will the Premier commit to do this right away? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, may I first respond L3895 December 3, 1985 Vol XL to the other part of the Leader of the Opposition's comments? The Leader of the Opposition has now admitted that the Liberal Party of Newfoundland has bills. I have no such admission to make on behalf of the P.C. Party of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Number two, Mr. Speaker, I cannot help it if they owe a whole bunch of money and we do not. That is not my problem, and it is not a problem for this House. Mr.

Speaker, I have already taken initiatives along the lines the Leader of the Opposition has mentioned. It was done this morning, boy. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: I have a question £or the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies.

I wonder if the minister would confirm for the House that this new circuitous method, this new approach adopted by the provincial and federal governments, for whatever reasons, for approving the applications for the Canada Jobs Strategy Programme is causing undue and unnecessary delay and is resulting in utter frustration by the thousands of unemployed workers who are losing their patience, Mr. Speaker, wai tinq for the approval of these projects? MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. No. 72 R3895

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: The member is obviously either unaware or misinformed as to what is happening in Newfoundland this Fall as it relates to job creation. For the very first time the Provincial Government of Newfoundlnd and Labrador has put money into job creation programmes, in a joint programme with the federal government. The first time we ever put $2 million into a fishery response programme was this Fall. 3,700 jobs have been approved, Mr. Speaker, up to last weekend by this government and the federal government.

If that was not enough, Mr. Speaker, we put $2 million into student programmes for the Summer, we also put $3.5 million into a joint programme with the federal government this Fall, for job creation, from which over 1,300 jobs were approved by last Friday, which is as early, if not earlier, than we have ever had Canada Works-type creation programmes done in Newfoundland before. Up to last Friday we had 5, 000 jobs approved in job creation works. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. POWER: There was just about $19 million approved up to last Friday, as quickly and as efficiently as has ever been done before.

We have had a problem, if you want, with getting the things out as fast as some people might have liked, but it is our intention as a government, in co-operation with the federal government, to have programmes done, to approve the very best projects, to approve L3896 December 3, 1985 Vol XL them in communities where there is a very urgent need. That we have done, Mr. Speaker, and up to Friday we had $19 million just about spent, we have over 5,000 jobs created, and that is as efficient as any government has ever been in Newfoundland, or in Canada, in response to that need. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Would the minister not agree that a system similar to the previous system of a district-wide, a constituency-wide committee system, with representation from councils an~ Rural Development Associations, would be much more effective, much more efficient than the approach that we now have, an approach that is something like- a baseball diamond, where the applications come from Manpower to the minister, back to the federal minister, then back to this Province again, a system that takes at least a month if it is done efficiently and effectively?

Would the minister not agree that the present system is cumbersome, awkward, and rings of political interference, Mr. Speaker? Would the minister not agree that some sort of district-wide, unpartisan committee system would be much more effective and cause a lot less delays than we have now? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I teetotally, 100 per cent disagree with the hon. member. We have in this Province No. 72 R3896 -

today at least two make-work projects for persons in need. Is the member saying that we should not have involved the Newfoundland Fishermen, Food and Allied Workers Union in identifying the communities and the individuals who had great need? We put the Fishermen's - Union on that committee to make sure that it was no t nonpartisan, to make sure it went where there was need, to make sure the communities and the individuals who had urgent were accommodated.

We set up a very unpartisan kind of committee with the Fishermen's Union, an official of my department and an official of CEIC, and there was no political interference. We tried to do it as efficiently as we could, and we did that, Mr. Speaker. We identified the communi ties, the individuals, and then, not in the old Canada Works kind of syndrome but in a new system where there is training components, we identified better projects than have ever been identified where both individuals and communities were in need.

Now if the member is saying that somehow or other that is partisan, that is unjust, that is unfair, then the member is certainly not aware of what is happening in rural Newfoundland with these make-work projects. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: A final question, Mr. Speaker, to the minister.

Would the minister L3897 December 3, 1985 Vol XL not admit to this House that he is totally dissatisfied with this new programme, the Canada Jobs Strategy Programme, from stem to stern, from top to bottom, that he is completely dissatisfied with it? More specifically, would the minister indicate what steps he has taken to eradicate the entry requirement that · says a person must be unemployed twenty-four weeks out of the previous thirty? Now, Mr. Speaker, what that means is that people with more than six weeks employment are not entitled to work on this programme.

We have initiated a programme for one group of people, fishermen, who could not find enough stamps, but we now have thousands of people out there who are going to be discriminated against by this requirement. Is the minister going to do something about this terrible discrimination? Thousands of people are not going to be allowed to work on these projects. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe that all the members opposite and the Liberal Party of Newfoundland are that inconsistent in their view of job creation in this Province.

When the Liberal Government was in Ottawa, it was all, "Thank you very much, Mr. Ottawa, for your make-work Canada Works kind of projects. You tell us exactly what we need and we will take it greatfully. Now that we as the Government of Newfoundland have decided to put $3.5 million into the Canadian Jobs Strategy Programme to have some say in selecting programmes to make sure there is a training element, now that we put $2 million into the No. 72 R3897

fishery response programmes and have allowed representation of the union, the federal government representative, and our government to be very non-partisan and select the best projects in the communities with the most need, somehow or other now we are said to have done some injustice to the workers in Newfoundland. Last week, when I had a ministerial statement that 5,000 less people were working in October, 1984, than in October, 1985, somehow or other that was said to be a terrible ministerial statement to make.

The member opposite got up and said that that was just statistics, playing with figures, the fact that we have 5,000 more people working this year than last year. The fact that up to last weekend we have 5,000 jobs approved, somehow or other because we are involved as a government and because the process was a little bit slower, I suppose we should do what the Liberal Party opposite suggested and removed our $7.5 million from job creation this year and have 5, 000 less people working. If that is what members opposite want, we can easily do it, Mr. Speaker. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, my question, the same as yesterday's, is to the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications (Mr. Russell) , but today I have an even more serious allegation against Newfoundland Light and Power and its treatment of the consumer. At one time Newfoundland Light and Power took L3898 December 3, 1985 Vol XL it to the point of sending out letters to consumers who were in arrears, but not going door to door. Now they are going door to door. I had a constituent call me today-MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is starting to make a speech. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, serious matter. it in order to in. This is not MR. PEACH: this is a very I have to explain get the question something- The lights are on - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. EFFORD: If the member for Carbonear (Mr. Peach) looked after his constituents, we probably would not have half of the problems out there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have the opportunity of presenting this question to the Minister of Consumer Affairs.

Is the Minister of Consumer Affairs now aware that people from Newfoundland Light and Power are going from door to door and giving people seven days notice to pay $300? Not $120, which was the case for one constituent yesterday. This constituent has to pay $300 in advance or his lights will be cut in seven days. His total arrears of $32 is paid up. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shameful! No. 72 R3898

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications. MR. RUSSELL: Mr . Speaker, I hope that the information that the hon. the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) has just stated is a - little more accurate than the information he portrayed in this House yesterday, to which I shall respond further down in this Order Paper. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: It is unbelievable that the Minister for Consumer Affairs and Communications would come back with an answer like that.

I can assure the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications that what I am stating is accurate. If needs be, I will bring the people into this gallery and let you stand up and say that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. YOUNG: Go to Shearstown, boy. People are looking for you in Shears town. I have three letters from Shearstown. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. EFFORD: You would not know how to read a letter if you got one. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! L3899 December 3, 1985 Vol XL MR. EFFORD: Mr.

Speaker, the second part of the question concerns another case where a consumer with a light bill of $242 got the same notice from Newfoundland Light and Power, "Seven days to cut-off. n His two week allotment from Social Services, as he has a heart condition, is $221. Would the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications tell me how this consumer can afford to pay this? At what time is the minister going to make sure that consumers have some protection against the harassment of Newfoundland Light and Power? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications. MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, yesterday when the member posed a similar question pertaining to Newfoundland Light and Power, at that point in time I said I would obtain some information and get back to the hon. member, which I eventually will in Answers to Questions. Then I think the whole matter of the procedure of how Newfoundland Light and Power contacts persons who are in arrears will be made very clear and the information will be a little more accurately portrayed than the member did in this House yesterday. MR. DINN: And he knows the difference, too. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EPFORD: I have a letter here where this No. 72 R3899

gentleman presented his case to the Department of Social Services and they told him to go to the local representative. He went to the local representative and was turned down. MR. SIMMS: That is a hypothetical case. MR. EFFORD: This is a hypothetical case. I would like to ask the Minister of Consumer Affairs where he is getting his information from, because these are facts. I ask the minister again, will he do something to protect consumers being continually harassed by Newfoundland Light and Power? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, if the House gives leave, I will give the answer now to the question the hon. member posed yesterday, which should . clarify the procedure. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, no! MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: .The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: My question is to the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies who, I might say, has a completely different tune today L3900 December 3, 1985 Vol XL than he had on television last night. We saw, Mr. Speaker, twenty-four hours after the hunger strike began at Branch the project was approved.

This would suggest that we are into a crisis management situation where government is reacting rather than leading. My question to the hon. minister, Mr. Speaker, is what action has the minister taken, or what action does the minister intend to take to discourage an outburst of hunger strikes across this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, if there is one place we could find an opportunity for job creation is as a researcher for the Liberal caucus.

Obviously Rex is getting too busy with his conflict of interest questions because he has not been very accurate in the research he has done. People in Branch went on a hunger strike on November 25. There was an application signed - very provable, very documented November 21. I, on behalf of this government, signed an application approving a project for Branch four days before they went on a hunger strike. Now, somehow or other, Mr.

Speaker, as smart as I am, I did not foresee, four days prior, that they were going to go on a hunger strike in Branch, and somehow or other I approved the application because there was going to be a hunger strike. We are not involved in crisis management, we are involved in job creation. We have $44 million to spend and in the next three or four months we are going to spend it. We have already created 5000 jobs and there are many more thousands to come, Mr. Speaker. No. 72 R3900

MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Menihek. MR . FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Justice (Ms. Verge) • The ground search and rescue team in my district have made representation to me over the last couple of days. They are extremely worried about plans that have been put in train hy the Department of Justice to change the responsibility for the ground search and rescue teams from the Emergency Measures Organization over to local police forces.

I understand this information is as yet not public, but they wish to express in the strongest possible way their concern over this loss of autonomy. My question to the minister is what is going on with the ground search and rescue teams and what plans does your department have for them? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, the Department of Justice has recently reiterated the responsibilities for ground search and rescue to be that of the police, so that in our Province the two police forces, the RCMP and the RNC, will undertake more vigorously than ever the recruitment and leadership for volunteer teams in various regions of the Province.

This is being done co-operatively with the Emergency Measures Organization, which is also part of the Department of Justice, the two police forces, which report to the Department of Justice, and the L3901 December 3, 1985 Vol XL volunteer teams which are in existence in several communities around the Province.

As I understand it this arrangement is satisfactory to the volunteers, to the members of the ground search and rescue teams, and it is being done to streamline the organization so tha-t in the event of an emergency, in the event of a person being missing or lost and a rescue effort having to be mounted, that rescue effort can be commenced as quickly as possible, in the most efficient way possible, with simple lines of authority and reporting responsibilities, and with no duplication of effort. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. member for Menihek. MR.

FENWICK: the I am afraid I find the information from the minister that these teams have consented to this change quite remarkable since we have not been able to find any of the teams who knew prior to Friday that this change was occurring at all. As a matter of fact, our information is that several - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member is now making a speech. MR. FENWICK: My question to the minister is, considering that the teams themselves know nothing about this and have not been consulted, will the Minister of Justice (Ms.

Verge) inform her Deputy Minister and others responsible for this to immediately start consultations with these teams to find out their No. 72 R3901

opinion on it? They are quite worried about the whole situation. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, that has already been done. I have been assured by officials in my department that the two police forces in the Province are in the process of conducting discussions with their respective voluntary ground search and rescue teams. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. the Premier, if I could get his attention, and it relates to the free trade issue.

I realize there are going to be, as he indicated yesterday, some ongoing discussions over the next sixty of ninety days. I wonder if the Premier would indicate whether it is the position of his government that the provincial Government of Newfoundland ought to have a veto in matters relating to free trade? Be realizes that this subject has tremendous ramifications for this Province, so would he undertake to the Bouse, commit to the Bouse to seek such a veto? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. L3902 December 3, 1985 Vol XL PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, we are into very sensitive negotiations with the other provinces and the federal government over the actual action plan which will be put in place at it relates to these negotiations, so I would not like to say very much publicly on it until such time as those negotiations have been completed. We had two or three fairly productive private sessions between the Premiers and the Prime Minister in Halifax.

It was thought at that time that we did not have the time to go through all the matters in the two days we had, because they were only private session in between the public sessions, so that we will be, then, putting our position forward in those meetings over the next ninety days.

But I would not like to prejudice those meetings or prejudice our position in indicating where we are as it relates to the role that this Province or any other province should play in the ongoing negotiations, but rather wait until such time ~s I put that position on behalf of the Province in those talks between the Prime Minister and the other Premiers. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: I thank the Premier for his answer.

Two of the Premiers , I believe Premiers Peterson and Pawley - certainly one was Premier Peterson - indicated in the press immediately after the Halifax meeting that it was their understanding that the Prime No. 72 R3902

Minister had agreed to such a veto. Is that the understanding of the Premier here? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, Mr. Speaker, I have listened to some of the comments of some of the Premiers. I think Mr. Peterson and Mr. Getty are saying that there is an understanding that the First Ministers, which will involve, therefore the Premiers and the Prime Minister as a group, will be the final group who ·will approve or disapprove various positions put forward in the proposals and counter-proposals that will ensue once negotiations · start.

That is a different thing than saying that each individual province has a veto on anything that might affect that province. I do not know what Mr. Pawley actually said but I heard that what Mr. Getty and Mr. Peterson said was that the First Ministers would be the group in the final analysis who would decide upon what next negotiating position they would take until you got down to the end of the road and then decide whether _you had an agreement or whether you did not. That is somewhat different than saying that each individual province has a veto in the spheres of activity that would affect that province.

But it has to be refined a bit more clearly in that ninety day period because obviously coming out of the meeting there is some disagreement as to what the final decision was. MR. SIMMONS: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. L3903 December 3, 1985 Vol XL the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the remarks the Premier made in his initial answer about the delicacy of the situation and so on.

I wonder, though, taking that into account, could he indicate to the House whether he feels that an effective veto would be required to protect our interests as a Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Once again the member is asking in another way what I have already responded to in the initial question that was asked. I do not berate the member for asking the question. All I am saying is that I would not want, at this point in time, on behalf of the Province to indicate what position we are taking. It is a very sensitive thing.

The whole issue of the free trade negotiations is a very, very important piece of business for Canada as it is for each one of the individual units, namely the provinces. So I would not like to say, at this point in time, just exactly what our position will be in these ongoing negotiations. Suffice it to say that obviously I believe there has to be a significant role for the provinces in the ongoing negotiations. The degree to which the Province will go in that will be determined at the table with the other First Ministers. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has now elapsed. No. 72 R3903

Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, 26.1 of pursuant the Administration Act, table copies of an Council relating precommitment of funds. I to

Section Financial wish to Order in to the Notices of Motion MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled "An Act To Amend The Queen's Counsel Act". Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the answer to a question asked verbally by the hon. the member for St. Barbe (Mr.

Furey) and Question No. 27 asked by the hon. the member for Port de Grave (Mr. L3904 December 3, 1985 Vol XL Efford). MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I want to table an answer to Question No. 32 asked by the member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward), concerning the Cold Brook access road. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications. MR. RUSSELL: The bon. the member for Port de Grave (Mr.

Efford) posed a question to me yesterday pertaining to what he said was a new policy of Newfoundland Light and Power in charging customers a $120 hook-up fee if there had been some problem with their arrears. I would like to provide the following information with regard to that policy or that question: Information was obtained by my deputy minister and I today, in consultation with the legal counsel for Newfoundland Light and Power.

The policy is as follows: 1) In cases where power has been disconnected, a reconnection fee of $15 is charged, if reconnection is done during normal working hours; 2) If reconnection is effected after normal working hours, a fee of $30 is charged; 3) In customers No. 72 cases where domestic receive cutoff notices R3904

on three or more occasions during a twelve month period, the Public Utilities Board has authorized Newfoundland Light and Power to require a security deposit of $120 from the customer. A cutoff notice is issued by Newfoundland Light and Power when the customer is in arrears on the current bill after the discount date, as well as 30 per cent in arrears on the previous billing. This security deposit is required to be returned to the consumer with interest after one year if the customer has not been in default in payments during that period. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR.

RUSSELL: In the specific case referred to by the hon. member, the individual received seven cutoff notices in a nine month period due to consistent arrears in payment of monthly bills. Such being the case, Newfoundland Light and Power is authorized under authority provided by the Public Utilities Board to require a $120 security deposit from the customer in setting up a new service account at a new domestic location. Further, Mr. Speaker, in discussion with Newfoundland Light and Power today, they advised me that the hon. the member for Port de Grave (Mr.

Efford) was made aware of this information yesterday before he came into the House and I submit, Mr. Speaker, t~at he misled this House and misled the consumers of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! L3905 December 3, 1985 Vol XL MR. EFFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I can tell Minister of Consumer Affairs Communications (Mr. Russell) fact. I did not mislead the and one this House yesterday, and he has proven another fact to me, the Public Utili ties Board is nothing but a rubber stamp.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, this particular constituent said that he received - MR. TOBIN: What is the point of order, Mr . Speaker? MR. EFFORD: The point of order is concerning constituents who received seven cut-off notices. This constituent who received seven cut-off notices MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the hon. member to come to his point of order. MR. EFFORD: I am, Mr. Speaker. The constituent received seven cut-off notices and he proved it to the Newfoundland Light and Power that he did not and he was not in arrears.

This gentleman had to pay $120, and the situation is if he cannot afford to pay the $120, where is he going to get the money to pay his light bill? No. 72 R3905

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the hon. member to address the Chair and then he would see that I was standing. There is no point of order. We are now on Answers to Questions. MR. BARRY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: The so-called Minister of Consumer Affairs, who has done nothing to protect the consumers of this Province, got up and said that the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) misled this House. The member for Port de Grave got up and set out that if there is anybody misleading this House, it is the minister.

The member for Port de Grave pointed out that he checked with the person involved who said that he had received seven cut-off notices when established that they were improperly sent to him. The money was not owing but he still had to put up the $120 security. The point is does the member for Port de Grave have to bring in 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 of these before the minister checks out the principle? There are people out there who do not have the money, who cannot afford to put up this $120 which they my get back in a year or 100 years, it does not matter. They do not have the money in the first place. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! It appeared to the Chair the hon. member was making a L3906 December 3, 1985 Vol XL speech, not bringing up a point of order. I do not see any point of order. There is obviously a difference of opinion between two hon. men, but there is no point of order. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I raise not a point of order but a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege, the hon. the member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: It is this, Mr.

Speaker, that every member of this House, whether the member for Port de Grave, myself or others, have a right to raise points of order. I do not see how the Chair can rule on points of order that it has not heard. The gentleman was not given an opportunity to make his point of order. I am not condemning the Chair for this, I am condemning members opposite who never gave the gentleman an opportunity to make his point of order. Now, surely, Mr. Speaker, - SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: - here we go again. My point of privilege, Mr.

Speaker, is that the minister has misled the House in that he gave - I am not ·saying he deliberately did it - but he has misled the House by giving incorrect information. My colleague got up and gave contrary information. No. 72 R3906

MR. TULK: Correct. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker - and here is my point of privilege - if we, as members of this House, are going to lose the right to draw to the House • s attention that incorrect information is being given by a minister or some other member, then my rights are being broached here. That is -my point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. I ask you to take it under advisement, because the minister did, it appears, now I do not know the case, but I submit to him and to you, Mr. Speaker, that it appears he gave the House misleading information. Instead of allowing the member for Port de Grave (Mr.

Efford) to be shot down because he has differing information, common courtesy requires that the two stories be checked out to see who is telling the truth because one of them is not. One of them is not clearly telling the truth. If we lose the right to have the inaccurate record corrected in this House, then we are losing part of our rights as members of this Chamber. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance, to that point of privilege. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, there is clearly no point of privilege here. · I doubt very much whether there .j.s even a point of order. The hon. members opposite have risen in their place on a putative point of order to question information given. Mr. Speaker, whether they believe what they have are facts or riot it is L3907 December 3, 1985 Vol XL quite beside the point. Those are not points of order. I suggest the hon. member opposite should go read the rules. A point of order is where the rules of the House or the precedent of the House are broken. It is not whether it is a difference of opinion.

Whether the hon. members think they have the truth or not. These are quite irrelevant. It is an abuse of the House to keep rising on these points of order and it is certainly abuse of the House to portray such behaviour as a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of privilege, I am going to consider the matter and report tomorrow. MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table an answer to a question that was asked by the hon. the member for Stephenville (Mr. K.

Aylward) last week pertaining to Winter Games jackets and tendering? The answer is here for the hon. gentleman. Orders of the Day Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Style The Department Of Development As The Department of Development And Tourism.w MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No. 72 R3907

The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of other points which I want to make, then, I suppose, if some other members want to speak, they should feel perfectly free to do so. Yesterday I was pointing out, Mr. Speaker, that the government - and I gave a number of examples of that behaviour - has not carried on the development of tourism in this Province in the way that it should. Basically, the government has neglected tourism and it can be one of the major industries in this Province. It can be one of the major sources of employment in the Province.

But this government has done nothing. As a matter of fact, it has kept it in a department where it is a very subsidary part, a very small part, a non-substantive part of an overall department called the Department of Development. I do want to bring one other question to the minister's attention, and I notice he is in the House. I do not believe he was here yesterday, so I would like for him over the next two or three days, over the weekend perhaps coming up and over the Christmas holidays to read some of the very good points that were made from this side of the House concerning the department.

The Minister of Consumer Affairs (Mr. Russell) is interrupting the minister, he is trying to listen down there, the minister is trying to interrupt. He had no answers for the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford), but he is now trying to interrupt the minister from trying to learn something down there. MR. RUSSELL: L3908 December 3, 1985 Vol XL You are awfully boring. MR. TULK: You are awful boring. Y~s, you are. You are not only awfully boring and you have no information to give us, Mr. Speaker.

If ever there was i-ncompetence in this House or a lack of caring for the people that he is suppose to represent in the government, there is the example. The best that he can do is stand up in this House and say, "no, I do not know. Yes, I will try to find out" or you are offending some large corporation in this Province, as he just said to the member for Port de Grave. Do not offend Newfoundland Light and Power, he said, and he is the Minister of Consumer Affairs. Can you imagine? MR. RUSSELL: I did not vote for factory freezer trawlers. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. TULK: Now listen! Now, Mr. Speaker,- MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: that gentleman has been chastised already once today by the Speaker and asked to withdraw something. I suspect in view of the bad advice that he gave the Premier the other day on a resolution that he has also been chastised by him. So he is treading on very thin ice. He should behave himself. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. TULK: No. 72 R3908

Mr. Speaker, give it the flick. Flick him out, Mr. Speaker, or ask him to be quiet. MR. SPEAKER: Could we have order please while the hon. member for Fogo is debating? MR. TULK: There he strolls, there is the physiognomy of Tourism. I am not being saucy, I am saying there he strolls. Mr. Speaker, as I was saying to the Minister of Development (Mr.

Barrett) - he is up now so he can hear the good advice - he should go back and get Hansard, what has been said in the last two or three days, and read over some of the good suggestions that have been coming forth .from this side so that he might do a good job as the Minister of Development and not be like the Minister of Consumer Affairs (Mr. Russell) who has been totally incompetent in this House. I want to make one Mr. Speaker, and finished. MR. FUREY: other then point, I am Every milli-on dollars is seventy jobs. MR. TULK: Every million dollars is seventy jobs my friend for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) tells me.

Every million dollars spent by government? MR. FUREY: No, by Tourists. MR. TULK: Every million dollars spent by Tourism means seventy jobs for the Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is another good piece of advice for the Minister of Development. L3909 December 3, 1985 Vol XL MR. PATTERSON: I question those figures. MR. TULK: Landslide Billy is at it. The teacher hater is at it again. He is over there interrupting. The guy who hates the teachers, who calls them terrorists and so on, is at it again. If you do not agree with him, you are a terrorist. I know what he said, all the teachers in the Province know.

He calls them goons, he does not care for them and all that kind of stuff. Every teacher in the Province knows that. Mr. Speaker, I want to make one other point to the Minister of Development and it is this. There are a number of tourists who come into this Province and we have a system in this Province whereby if a tourist comes into the Province he can get certain goods and get the sales tax taken off once he makes application after he leaves the Province.

It would seem to me that the government should look at certain ways and means of taking that away and allowing tourists to come into this Province - as a matter of fact they should lower the sales tax anyway. As we said in the election the sales tax should be lowered all across the board - but they should certainly try to do away with that system of having tourists come in and have to pick up their little papers and go away to the United States, ' Europe, or down in the Far East before they fill them out:. But that is, I suppose, a concoction of the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) again, old Scrooge, he loves to twist the knife when he gets it in. I suppose he figures he has punished the Newfoundland people enough now so he will have a go at the tourists, somebody outside Newfoundland. That is No. 72 R3909

neither here nor there, I guess. The point to be made to the Minister of Development is that he should try to encourage, and perhaps that is what he is doing now, encourage the Minister of Finance - old Scrooge there - to try and do away with this anachronism of tourists having to go out of this Province to apply for a refund on sales tax that they have to pay on certain i terns in the Province. There must be some other way. We do live in the age of the computer and the microchip, so there must be some other way. Mr.

Speaker, having made those few points, having made the points about transportation across that Gulf being very important to the development of tourism and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) having made the point about the publicity that is given and the direction that is given to tourists, I would just ask the Minister of Development, the minister responsible for tourism, to sit down over the Christmas holidays - he is probably going to Florida - when he is lying in the sun - MR. BARRETT: I cannot afford it. MR. TULK: Well, we are in the same boat on that one.

When he goes to Florida this Christmas I would just ask the Minister of Tourism to sit down and read Hansard and see some of the good points that have been made by members on this side. Unfortunately, there has be~n nothing coming from the side except abuse, but I would ask him to pay attention to what has happened over here. MR. BAKER: L3910 December 3, 1985 Vol XL Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to make a few comments on this particular bill.

Effectively all it does it put the word 'Tourism' in with the Department of Development. ~hat is the effect of this particular bill which as many speakers have pointed out, is not really doing much for tourism in this Province. I would like to make just a couple of comments concerning tourism. I hope that the Minister of Development (Mr. Barrett) is listening. I know that he is bothered by another member there right now but I hope that he will take what I have to say to heart. First of all, we are now, or he is, administering a tourism agreement.

This agreement, of course, is one that was greatly heralded during the last election campaign and there were many promises made from that particular agreement. I suspect the total of the promises made by government members from that agreement far exceed the total of money that is in the agreement. Anyway, I would like to point out that whole areas of this Province are completely excluded from that agreement. I would like to further say that the areas that are excluded are not aware that they are excluded.

People are submitting ideas to be funded under this particular tourism agreement and it goes through the process. They then get a little note back saying, nwell, I am sorry, your proposal needs a No. 72 R3910

little more work." So then they go and hire an accountant or something, spend $2,000 or $3,000 or $4,000 or $5,000 doing up their proposal and getting the proposal supposedly in line with what is desired only to find that when they re-submit their proposal, then they are told something else is wrong with their proposal when, in actual fact, there are areas of this Province that have been totally excluded.

If the Department of Development and Tourism, as it is now going to be, would be completely honest with the. people who submit these applications, they would tell them right from the beginning, when they first submit their application, "I am sorry we cannot accept your application. We cannot consider your application because we are not going to fund programmes in the Province under this tourism agreement from that particular area of the Province." AN HON. MEMBER: What is the point? MR. BAKER: The point is, once they have made the decision to exclude areas, - they should be honest about it.

If they are not going to be honest about it, then everybody should have the same whack at the cat, everybody should have the same shot at the money. I think that this is the kind of thing that is going on that I hope the Minister of Development and now Tourism will start to correct, some of these inequities. Also the Department of Development and Tourism obviously, in trying to promote the Province, should once again - I have mentioned this before - promote the whole Province and not stick L3911 December 3, 1985 Vol XL specifically to a couple of areas that coincidentally happen to be near where we are right now.

I would suggest that the whole Province be properly advertised and, if there is not enough money to promote tourism in all of the Province and to provide money for all areas of the Province so they can develop their areas, then perhaps the minister should reconsider what particular weight he has in cabinet with regard to getting money to properly carry out the duties of this particular portfolio. The whole Province should be advertised. I pointed out in this House once before that a tremendous brochure - it looked good - was put out by the Department of Development.

Now, granted, before the present minister assumed these awesome responsibilities, but a brochure that was tremendous, had twelve enclosures, twelve separate little brochures in one big one promoting the Island of Newfoundland. In the three maps that were contained in that particular brochure, promoting th~ whole Province, were fish food recipes and all this kind of stuf£1 there was a mention of the fishery and everything else 1 there was a mention of the beautiful scenery we have, but in the three maps that went along with this particular brochure the only place that was identified was St.

John's - the only place, Mr. Speaker. Glovertown was not even mentioned. I am surei you will be shocked to learn. Glovertown was not even mentioned. This kind of bias, I would suggest, has no place in the advertising that the Department of Development and Tourism does. If they are going to do a specific one for the Avalon Peninsula, fine, then that is great, let us No. 72 R3911

do it. If they are going to do one that includes Bonavista North and Terra Nova and so on, then let us do one. But let us not put out these general brochures purporting to be brochures that are to advertise the whole Province and the only place that is mentioned on any map in there is St. John's. I think that this kind of thing should stop. Maybe, because there is a change in ministers, that will not happen again. MR. TULK: It should stop. MR. BAKER: I would hope so.

There has been a change in ministers and maybe this one is a little more understanding, is a little more compassionate to the needs of the rest of the Province. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, at least for a while, until I can see some of the stuff that he produces. Mr. Speaker, these are the two points that I wanted to right now. The minister listening, and I appreciate it. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): only make was The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I want to support the words echoed by my friend, the member for Gander (Mr.

Baker), and to comment on the fact that in this tourism agreement, in this tourism package, whatever one wants to refer to it as, we have large areas of the Province excluded, and I am going to name at least one area. This came about through my research in L3912 · December 3, 1985 Vol XL trying to support an application from a certain businessman who was trying to improve his facility, to make it more attractive to tourists, to make it more compatible with present-day servic~s, and who had gone through a lot of work in compiling this application.

I have written on several occasions and I have never been responded to by letter. Through my research I found out that the Department of Tourism or the Department of Development have priorized areas in the Province where they are going to spend tourist dollars. Mr. Speaker, nobody is going to object to that. We want to spend government monies wisely, but as my friend, the hon. the member for Gander pointed out, let us tell the people. If they are applying from a certain area, let us tell them they are not included; that they are only wasting their time by applying for having brochures funded.

They are making out applications and being told there was something wrong with the applications, and then they go to the expense of getting an accountant and trying to fine-tune and beef up the application only to be turned dow again and not told the reason, that their area is not included in the areas that is priorized. "You are included in a priority area.• not Mr. Speaker, let us call a spade a spade so that these people do not waste their time~ I am told, and let the minister~ correct me if I am · wrong, that the great historic district of Bonavista North is excluded from this tourism package. Mr.

S.peaker, what an area to be excluded from tourism. It has some of · the most scenic No. 72 R3912

areas in Province, fishing, water the whole of the the sea, the ocean, fresh water and salt fishing, a good transportation system, next door to Gander, and I am told it is supposed to have an international flavour. We have always referred to Gander Airport as the international airport. Certainly, if we are to get tourists into this Province and if they are to come from different countries of the world, well, obviously they are going to come to Gander.

If they are going to get to Gander, we want to get them to Bona vista North, an area which has a great transportation system and, as I have said, all kinds of things to offer the tourist - hunting, fishing, and yet we are excluded - Why? - We have been excluded, I am told, since 1976. Since 1976 that great district of Bonavista North has been excluded and discriminated against in terms of getting money to develop its tremendous tourism potential, the area that is noted for its fishing. Mr. Speaker, this was the heart of the seal fishery. The captains we have there: The Barbours and Winsors.

Their homes are still there, these great historic pieces. People have applied for money to try and restore them. What a great part of our heritage going to waste, going to be gone forever, all be~ause this department has excluded Bonavista North. I do not know what they are going to say today if anybody reports it, that this great traditional, historic, cultural area of this Province, the place where the seal fishery was almost born. That is where the captains came from, and L3913 December 3, 1985 Vol XL many of their properties are still there, many of their beautiful homes still there. But, Mr.

Speaker, we are excluded. The area of Bonavista North is excluded and yet they are not told that. When some committee put in a brochure to advertise what they had their for the tourists - the fishing, both salt water and fresh - this is a unique thing. What areas of Newfoundland can boast of giving salt water fishing and fresh water fishing, salmon, trout, all of this, boating, beautiful scenery, hunting, berry picking, the whole bit? And it is all excluded! Mr. Speaker, I want to make these points for the benefit of the people who sent me here, the people of Bonavista North.

There might be some areas in the Province we mentioned here today that people would get very excited about but we have, Mr. Speaker, an area discriminated again. Let the minister correct me if I am wrong. I just want to comment on the fact that this group applied for a brochure to advertise their area, the Wesleyville area and the Newtown area - these historic towns, to advertise their tourism potential. The application for something like $8,000 or $9,000 was turned down. Why?

Not because they said they were not included in the area that the government had priorized, not because it was not a priority, it was not because of that, it was something wrong with the application, something wrong with the design in the brochures. Mr. Speaker, they went back home to try for the next time to beef up the appearance of their brochure, knowing that they are never going to get it. They are not going to get it because the No. 72 R3913

area is discriminated against. How many more areas discriminated against? How more areas are not included? are many I do not know why it is, if it is not discrimination, an area that has the tourist potential of Bonavista North, why is it that they are not included in a tourism package? It has to be discrimination. Why is it that we do not put monies there to help further develop the services, to put in the proper infrastructure so that we can attract more tourists? So, Mr. Speaker, through you, I rest my case with the minister.

Let the minister get up and tell us why it is that this great historic area of Bona vista North, and I am sure there are other areas, are excluded. If the minister does not do it, I am going to submit a written question. I am going to ask for the areas that are priorized. I am going to ask for it. I want to know. I want to know whether there are any other great historic areas _like Bonavista North, rich with culture, rich with tradition that are left out of this package, Mr. Speaker, and the people discriminated against. Thank you. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): The hon. the member for St.

John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, thank you for recognizing me. I am inclined to agree a little bit with some of the members of the Opposition in that we are very backward in putting ourselves forward. There L3914 December 3, 1985 Vol XL is a lot here to bring tourists to this Province and, quite seriously, I think we should advertise a little more carefully, a little more thoroughly. The quality of our Summers, _ even though it is a bit disappointing sometimes to some of us, would be a welcome relief to anyone from the Mainland of North America. The climate is much cooler here.

It is a chance to get a breath of · fresh air. I am told by those people who are interested in astronomy, the Newfoundland skies are much clearer, when there are no clouds that is, but if you can get away from the light pollution of cities, an amateur astronomer can see more and see more clearly from the skies of Newfoundland than in any other civilized part of the world. Also of course, we have a most extraordinary situation here in the House of Assembly. We have probably the only subhuman opposition in Canada, and a remnant of those who still believe that Hitler was a great man.

So probably the last remnant of the Nazi Party is here in Opposition in this House of Assembly. Perhaps we should extolled this. The · whole complexion of Newfoundland society and of our ­ Province is an extremely interesting one so tourists can go, if the House of Assembly is in session, and see the freaks in the Opposition and go all the way from there to see our very important historical site that date back fully 1,000 years. There is no limit to the attractions for tourists. I recall on one occasion some tourists visiting the Battery of Quidi Vidi and the attendant who No. 72 R3914

was there allowed one of the tourists to fire the Eigtheenth Century cannon. I do not suppose there are very many places in the world where you can come and actually fire an Eighteenth Century cannon. Those of us who live here probably have not seen too many of the attractions that we have. I guess the shoemaker's children always wear the worse shoes. MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: A point of order, member for Fogo. . MR. TULK: the hon. the I wonder if the Speaker could ask the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young) to check out the member for Placentia (Mr.

Patterson) to see if he is dead or alive down there. MR. WINDSOR: That is a point of abuse, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I wish to advise the hon. member for Fogo that the member is well alive and there is no point of order. The hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, as was pointed out by the President of the Treasury Board, that was a genuine point of abuse. I think we should recognize these points for what they are.

Anyway, I was saying that the shoemaker's children generally wear the worse shoes and those of L3915 December 3, 1985 Vol XL us who live here have either not seen, or have not bothered about viewing the many interesting points that tourists would see. I certainly recall being host to visitors here from away and being very surprised at the things that they found interesting, things that I had taken for granted, perhaps, things that we all take for granted.

Without drawing this debate on to any great length, I think that I have made the couple of necessary points and I would like to try and persuade members to move along Order Paper a little bit and this passed. There are lot other interesting points could be debated • SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: the get of that The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just a few brief comments.

I think I should mention in the House that the former Minister of Development should be given a lot of credit in the drive to change the name to include Tourism and give it some significance within our Province. I attended a conference back in January here in St. John's at Hotel, Newfoundland at which the minister spoke and gave his intention at that time. That was very well received by those in the tourism industry in that it did lend a lot of weight to the - MR. WINDSOR: The only one over there who knows anything about tourism is on his feet now. Carry on. No. 72 R3915

MR. KELLAND: Thank you very much, Mr. Minister. It may have been, of course, the reason why he is now President of Treasury Board, is that h~ did become popular in that particular industry with the announcement. We can talk about that some other time. There were a few comments over a period of time, Mr. Speaker, related to the fact that there was some decrease in the tourist business in our Province this past· year or this past season. I do not like, necessarily, the narrow term, 'our tourist season' because I believe our tourist season could potentially be the full twelve months.

Certainly, in Labrador we have many things to offer th~re that are not available in other parts of our Province during the Winter portion of our twelve month tourist season. Anyway, the decrease, in my mind, if I can express one particular opinion, might be, in part, related to, not so much the sales tax and things of this na~ure, although that does contribute I am sure, but the service with respect to ferries and not just on the Gulf alone but, of course, the ferry between Lewisporte and Happy Valley - Goose Bay in Labrador as well. To talk about the Gulf ferries, in particular.

I had the occasion to make the trip both ways this Summer. The service has much, much less quality, if you are talking about people service, than I have noticed on earlier occasions. The information obtainable or the information available on the toll free telephone system which provides reservation to people Province is person had and other information travelling to our very disjointed.

If a called four or five L3916 December 3, 1985 Vol XL times to this toll free number to get updated information on the departures, reservations, waiting lists and so on like that, frequently each different person they spoke to at this toll free number would give different information or information that is slightly varying. If you consider us Newfoundlanders and us Labradorians and us Cape Bretoners and so on, who are used to our follow Canadians who work on these boats can understand that there are certain discrepancies in the information and we can live with it.

We had to live with it for quite a number of generations, when we are talking about transportation across the Gulf. But picture some tourist from further South and further away who would not be aware that we are less than perfect in our efforts to attract them here. He or she would be a little concerned and perhaps by word of mouth, not only not come back again themselves, but convince others really if you are contemplating a trip to the Proyince of Newfoundland and Labrador you have to face that ferry trip. Why not consider some other distination?

I wonder if the current minister would make some, if he not already done so, fairly strong representations to Transport Canada and CN Marine , of course. I would not doubt that somewhere within his departmental files I would think a fair level of complaints about the type of service you can get on the Gulf ferries and the Labrador ferries and the type of information you could obtain under the reservation system now in use. I seriously think a poor ferry service and the poor service on board and prior to boarding has a detrimental affect No. 72 R3916

o~ the overall tourist dollar that comes into our Province. Another thing is to speak of the Labrador ferry itself. I know the other members from Labrador are familiar with this and they have heard it in the former complaints. It is a cattle boat. Mind you, when the William Carson sunk we had to have something to continue that roll-on roll-off ferry. They came up with the Sir Robert Bond which is a converted rail car ferry with a new superstructure to give some cabins and so on. But they are really utterly filthy.

I have seen the boat and heard people complain that they go out one week and the boat is in very poor condition. The cabin is dirty and there is no time to clean it up in between. They come back a couple of weeks later and experience the same thing, when coincidence puts them in the same cabin. The condition of the cabins, the conjested space, the poor presentation of tourist information, what there is available on board, is a detrimental thing to the tourist business in Labrador.

However, we are thankful that each year we have two young students from the Labrador area who are placed on board as tourist information officers. We have spoken about this on a number of different occasions to officials within the minister' s department. We must, somehow or other, develop an information package so these young tourist information officers can make use of it to some meaningful degree. They are placed aboard with a few brochures and things of this nature and not even an adequate supply. They are poorly located. Well, the location is not bad.

It is near L3917 December 3, 1985 Vol XL the purser office where all the passengers would have to go, but they have a battered desk. There is no security for the information. When they are not at the desk they must take everything away. The training is short and perhaps incomplete, I agree with that. There is not enough training and not enough specific training. They are given some sort of a general training on how to talk to and deal with tourists. Perhaps the tourism associations have a responsibility here as well.

They are not given any training as to the aspects of Labrador itself, the region, and the information they could be giving. They could make use, Mr. Speaker, of things such as the on board public address system, the television and so on. Through the offices of the minister responsible for tourism, perhaps there could be some video tape material produced and with the aid of the Tourism Industry Associations in Labrador, some text materials that these young students can provide on the PA system or as handouts, or in speaking with the people who are interested enough to travel to Labrador in the first place.

I think that it would be pretty hard to argue against that. I know that the other members have had some experience and some complaints that what a tour:iist to Labrador is getting in the form of information is very poor and far from adequate. They arrive on the dock in Happy Valley-Goose Bay. They do not know in many cases that they can, despite the less than perfect condition of the road between Happy Valley-Goose Bay and Churchill Falls, that they can actually drive, if they ' are No. 72 R3917

prepared for that kind of a wilderness experience, to drive up to Churchill Falls, a distance of about 185 miles, 300 kilometers. They do not know that. They do not know that a side trip, just twenty miles from Happy Valley-Goose Bay would take them down to Muskrat Falls, which is one of the potential sites for part of the Lower Churchill development, and many, many other little aspects that could be made available to them.

I will say though in the last couple of years there was good information produced on Labrador, probably the only - certainly the finest if there have been others - but probably the only half decent travel map of Labrador ever produced under a federal/provincial agreement. I think the total cost of the information package was something like $160,000 to $170,000. It had some of the breakdowns of the communities and had an overall facilities symbolism on there.

Well the map itself, in my opinion, was the best ever produced for Labrador and perhaps the only one that we were not just an insert on the upper right hand corner of the map of Newfoundland. That particular :map, a lure booklet which gave information on most of the areas, there were some postcards and slides and things like this, some of which were intended for free J distribution - there are a set of posters as well, Mr.

Speaker - and some which were for sale, but through some slip up in the administration of how they were distributed resulted in the fact that for the items that should been sold were, in some cases, given away and the items that were supposed to have been given away , were attempted to be sold. The L3918 December 3, 1985 Vol XL result was that there was no income or no revenue back in with which to reorder these very vi tal pieces of information in the tourism industry in Labrador. Somehow or other I would like the minister to have a look at that. We have talked about it before.

It is not new information between the minister and myself. Somehow or other we should address ways and means of reproducing and updating that particular information because it was excellent. There was no question about that. It was excellent. That map was just a beautiful map and very, very popular among local people in Labrador and our 500,000 potential tourists on the Island who may go to .Labrador, plus, I suppose, those from anywhere else in the world. I would like to see some support from the Torngat Mountains member (Mr. Warren) , the Eagle River member (Mr. Hiscock) , and the Menihek member (Mr.

Fenwick) in generating yet a bit more interest and a bit mo~e activity .in the tourism trade in Labrador by finding collectively ways and means that we can see how extra money can be generated or found to reproduce and update that particular package of information which we though was . excellent. The only thing that we saw about it that was not excellent was it was a one shot deal. You can no longer get these maps because there is no more money. I thought they were really excellent. I thought I would like to mention that.

Another thing, when we are talking about Happy Valley-Goose Bay, I would like to mention - and Naskaupi district and Labrador generally - is that we often talk No. 72 R3918

about the increased military use of Goose Airport. We understand that the government's position is that they are in support of that. The Opposition's official position is that we also support the military use of Goose Airport. Again, I emphasis military in that particular sentence, Mr. Speaker, because perhaps, just as the town of Gander does, we should also, in a developmental and even a tourism sense, go as a community, with the support of government and whoever, and try to do some marketing on our own for an increased civilian use of the airport as well.

We have one of the better runways in North America actually, not just Canada. We have a main runway that is over 11,000 feet in length. All the current runways are going to be brought up to their full operational length again for military use. Here might be just the right chance to do some marketing and some visiting, just as the town of Gander does with their municipal councils and their Chamber of Commerce and things like this under the TOPs Programme.

Perhaps we should be considering, in conjunction with those bodies in Happy Valley - Goose Bay in Labrador along with the minister and his department to go and market for also an increased commercial use as well as a military use. So, in a total sense, I think we have to give the minister an opportunity to get his feet wet. I thank him for the visit this Summer to the Naskaupi district where he witnessed, what we believe, will become one of our greater tourism attractions in the Summertime, the Labrador Regetta. He expressed quite an interest in that at that time.

So we will L3919 December 3, 1985 Vol XL give him an opportunity to see what kind of support and how far he will go in improving, not just the tourism industry in our province, totally, but in Labrador, the region of our Province which I have a main concern inc MR. SIMMS: Do you also have a folk festival? MR. KELLAND: Yes. We have a number of things but the Labrador Canoe Regetta, I mentioned that in particular simply because it is a new event and it has proven to be extremely popular and I was very thankful the minister was able to make it in there.

He now has, I am sure, a greater awareness of what we are capable of doing in Labrador. That sort of a visit is what we need. We would like to see more government officials in there. With that kind of assistance, with that kind of belief in our potential in Labrador, I see the tourism industry growing totallyc Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to have a few words to say on this bill, in particular, Mr. Speaker, following in the footsteps of the hon. the member for Naskaupi.

I must say, to begin with, the hon. member for Naskaupi should be complimented on initiative. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! No. 72 R3919

~f MR. SPEAKER (Hickey): Do not get carried away now. Order, please! MR. WARREN: Let me say, Mr. Speaker, congratulations for being in that Chair. I am sure the Chair really suits you, Sir, and I hope that you will conduct the business in a most proper manner. MR. J. CARTER: Name them all. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I was saying that -I would like to compliment the member for Naskaupi on an initiative that he had taken a few years ago as it tourism in Labrador.

Gosling Lake Park. pertains to That was the I believe if anybody in deserves recognition and for the Gosling Lake Park Valley - Goose Bay it is member when he was a citizen in the community. Labrador credit in Happy the hon. private The hon. member was also talking about the CN vessels. I would like to go a little bit further and probably suggest to the minister that maybe through he Chambers of Commerce, ·particularly in Happy Valley - Goose Bay - I know in 1975 - 1976, I think it was, when I was the Craft Co-ordinator for Labrador, we had a cruise ship come j into Lake Mel ville.

I think it was one of the biggest tourism attractions that we had for some time. In fact, we had the old Kin Centre opened up with a display of crafts from all over Labrador. The Premier of the day, Mr. Moores, was there in attendance and member of the council. It was one of the biggest daily attractions that L3920 December 3, 1985 Vol XL they could have in Happy Valley - Goose Bay. I would suggest that maybe this year, when the cruise ships come in through St. John's and Corner Brook, we should look at Lake Melville as another point of call.

I also agree with the hon. member that the ferry service from Lewisporte to Goose Bay leaves a lot to be desired. I am particularly concerned about the lack of activities on the ferry for children. They are absolutely nil, none whatsoever. Children have to be on this boat for thirty-three to thirty-six hours. The only activity available is access to the lounge for people over eighteen years of age. There is nothing for the children and, in the Summertime, that ferry service is particularly important for families. A lot of the travellers are families with two or three or four children.

I believe the least CN can do is to make sure there are some sorts of activities introduced to accommodate the children for a portion of the time. I am quite pleased to note, Mr. Speaker, that CN have a new boat that will be christened very shortly that will be travelling the North Coast. It will be taking quite a few passengers. But at this time, I want to caution members of this House that we have to look at the needs of the people living in Labrador. I think the hon. member realizes there are many people who travel of necessity, who cannot travel in Summer.

So I think we have to look at this aspect of the people who live up there and tie it into our tourism trade. I believe the hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) No. 72 R3920

was in the federal Cabinet or was close to the federal Cabinet during a time when the old Moravian church in Hopedale, Labrador was declared a national historic site. It is the oldest wooden structure, I am not quite sure whether in all of Newfoundland or in all of Canada. Probably the hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage can clarify that, but I think it was dec:lared a national historic site during his tenure as minister or as parliamentary secretary to a federal minister. If it is not the oldest in Canada, I am sure it is the oldest in Newfoundland. MR. FUREY: What about the Port au Port RC Church? MR.

WARRE N: No, Mr. Speaker, would have to be old. if it were it over 220 years I may be incorrect in saying all of Canada, but I am sure in all of Newfoundland. The interior of the building is one of the most attractive structures with the most attractive artifacts that could be found anywhere in the Northern hemisphere. AN HON. MEMBER: Moravian? MR. WARREN: Yes, it church grants State is run . by the Moravian and each year there are through the Secretary of and different government agencies - MR. TULK: A quorum call, Mr. Speaker. Quorum L3921 December 3, 1985 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER (Hickey): Order, please!

We have a quorum. The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARR EN: Mr. Speaker, thank you very much. I will try to continue if I am not interrupted again by the hon. the member for Fogo. Since I was interrupted by him, I might bring to the attention of the House something that the hon. member said earlier. He got up and sort of said to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), 'Look, get rid of this sales tax on goods which people from outside the Province pay and have it rebated. Why do we have that?' I should ask the member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulk) if he would kindly tell this House when we, sitting in Opposition, deciding on questions to be asked, decided that I should ask the Minister of Finance a question about the same thing, which was employed in Ontario. At that time the Opposition party thought it would be a good question to ask the Minister of Finance, and now that the Minister of Finance has agreed to do this, they are still against it. I do not know what the hon. member is talking about, Mr. Speaker, you know, he gets upset. MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Hickey): Order, please!

A point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: No. 72 R3921

The hon. gentleman is not misleading the House because I doubt that he knows how. I want to inform him that what I was saying to the Minister of Finance is that he should try to do away with that unnecessary bureaucracy and need of having to fill out the application. That is what I was saying to the Minister of Finance, for the member's information. I know it is not a point of order, but he has to be straightened out. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order, it is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member said, he cannot have it both ways.

I should say this is one of the best pieces of legislation that the Government in Ontario has brought in, where they require people to fill out these applications, and the same thing is being done here. The hon. the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland) agrees that one of the greatest things is to invite people to our Province, but the hon. member does not agree with them having to fill out applications for the sales tax rebate. The hon. the member for Naskaupi said one other thing, which was a little bit off the topic, and it had to do with the Opposition's support of the military • s use of Goose Bay.

I have to say, Mr. Speaker, that I believe the hon. member does, and hopefully he is speaking for his whole caucus. But I gathered that not all members on that side are in support of the military's use of Goose Bay. I am not saying the hon. member is not, the hon. L3922 December 3, 1985 Vol XL member is in support of it. But to go back to the opening days of this session of the House, a lot of members Opposite do not support full military use of Goose Bay. With that in mind, Mr.

Speaker, I believe the hon. member is on the right track, because once in a while, regardless of how rough she goes, he will stand up for what is best for his district and what is best for Labrador, not saying that all members on that side would not do the same, Mr. Speaker. There is one other thing I want to mention before I sit down, and that is that our · biggest problem in dealing with tourism in Labrador is transportation. Transportation is one of our most serious problems in dealing with tourism in Labrador. We want to see tourism developed to its full potential in Labrador.

We have the Torngat Mountains, one of the most famous mountain ranges in all of Eastern Canada, great for skiing, great for hiking; we have the Mealy Mountains, we have the Churchill River. There are so many things a person can do up there. MR. FUREY: Did you not oppose development of the Churchill? MR. WARREN: I would like to object to what the hon. the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) has said. I would venture to say ! that if one went back over the record, it was not too bright. I will leave it at that. Mr.

Speaker, if we want to develop tourism in Labrador to its full potential, then there would have to be avenues opened to make transportation more accessible and cheaper. To fly to Labrador costs more than to fly from St. No. 72 R3922

John's to Toronto. In order to go there by CN boat it costs more than to go from Argentia to Port aux Basques. Here we have a part of our Province which can be financially helpful to our Province in the field of Tourism if we had a way and means to overcome the hurdle of transportation costs. In supporting this bill I would like to see Labrador developed to its potential in Tourism and, with the ideas and leadership of the Minister of Tourism (Mr. Barrett), in due course we will see things happening. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I want first of all to concur with the remarks made so ably by my friend and colleague for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland). He puts the case for Labrador very well, as do other members in this House representing Labrador, including the gentleman for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren). He was doing well but, having been away from the Chamber, I guess just prior to his speech, he failed to recognize the camaraderie which develops whenever we discuss a bill sponsored by the Minister of Development and Tourism.

He somewhat put his foot into things and introduced a partisan note, but I suppose having so recently crossed his Rubicond he still feels the inward need to justify his move by lashing out, even when there is no need to lash out. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, I would want to draw the attention of the House to the fact that once again the gentleman for St. John's North L3923 December 3, 1985 Vol XL (J. Carter) and I, as reflected ~n his speech a few moments ago, are again cheek to cheek on another issue. I want once again to endorse everything that he said and would encourage him to say those kind of things more often.

Thirdly, I would want to salute the sponsor of this bill, the Minister of Development and Tourism. As the House will know I had the privilege of working with him on the Public Accounts Committee some years ago, and I believe quite sincerely that the public is very well served by having people of his caliber in public life. I am his critic or his shadow, whatever the term we like to use here. As I have said in the House before, and as I have said privately to him, I still see him as new to this particular job.

By that I do not mean to imply that he is a novice because he is a very experienced man in business and in matters that now fall under his mandate as minister but, insofar as his portfolio is concerned, he is still just a few months into the job and, unless he conuni ts some horrendous faux pas, then we will not be giving him a rough time. That is not to say we will give him an easy time, but we will, as I am sure he will understand, draw to the attention of the House those matters under his mandate which deserve to be scrutinized. The bill itself, Mr.

Speaker, is . not a very substantive bill and I think the minister realizes that. It is to make legal the change which has really been in effect for some time in that he has the dual mandate of Development and Tourism. I want, as other members have done, to just flag one or two issues very, very quickly. My friend and colleague for Naskaupi No. 72 R3923

ha& spoken rather eloquently on one of those issues, and I just want to draw it to the attention of the House for the purpose of endorsing and reinforcing what he said and what the gentleman for Torngat Mountains has just said.

I had occasion over the past number of years to have people outside Newfoundland come to me looking for information about Newfoundland, I am thinking of would be tourists from Ontario, for example, and when you are on that end as a tourist you would be amazed at how difficult it is, short of writing a letter to the minister's department, in terms of public ways to get accurate information or any kind of information, about Newfoundland if you are contemplating· a visit here. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, one of the few sources is CN Marine's toll free number.

Frankly, without being too unkind, I do not recommend that particular source. Because you see, Mr. Speaker, those who get their introduction to this Province through CN Marine do not get a very good introduction. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: There is a lot more I could say on that, but I think the minister and the House know my views on the subject. Mr. Speaker, I am glad the Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr.

Ottenheimer) is in the House, because I want to say to him and to the Minister of Development and Tourism that I do not think as a government over the years, and this applies equally to the former Liberal Administration and the former Conservative Administration and the present one, I do not think these administrations, or L3924 December 3, 1985 Vol XL any administration since Confederation, have really driven home the point sufficiently well about the responsibilities that the Government of Canada has to Newfoundland under the Terms of Union insofar as transportation is concerned.

I really believe that on this whole marine transportation issue we are really getting the short end of the stick in two respects; in terms of what quality of service a person should expect in 1985 in Canada; and also in terms of the obligations of the Government of Canada under the Terms of Union • I think we are being short-changed on both accounts and I would encourage the minister to take some initiatives to rectify that situation.

My friend referred to cattle boats. for Naskaupi has the boats as being It is a term that I have used often, and the minister heard me in Estimates Committee last Spring talk about this particular issue. You only have to contrast the kind of service and the kinds of boats that are in operation in British Columbia, for example, operated by a Crown agency as compared to those which are here or boats which operate across the Northhuberland Strait into Prince Edward Island, operated by the same agency., CN Marine, and compare the service and the facilities, the equipment that we have here. It is night and day, Mr.

Speaker. It is embarrassing. More to the p(j)int, it discourages tourism in this Province. We can run all of the ads we want and I have seen the minister's ad campaign and what I said to him in Committee last Spring I repeat now, that I have seen quite commendable stuff in terms of advertising in publications outside of the Province, but we can run all·, the No. 72 R3924

ads we want, unless we finger this. problem and get the Government of Canada to address it properly and decently, as it ought to but never has either during the life of the present administration in Ottawa or others right back through to 1949, it has never really, Mr. Speaker, met its responsibilities fully, we have always had to go cap-in-hand, begging on that particular issue. And people, not only in isolated communities but all over this Province, and would-be tourists are short-changed because that mandate has not been fully lived up to.

So I would encourage the minister to take this under advisement with a view to seeing what initiatives can be taken to rectify the situation which I have put my finger on, as many others before me have done. One other quick point, Mr. Speaker, to the minister.

Members of this House, irrespective of the party he or she represents, are partisan in our dealings with each other, it is true, but when we go outside of this Chamber, and particularly when we go outside of this Province we are Newfoundlanders first, not Liberals or Tories or anything else, we are Newfoundlanders first, and we want to avail of every opportunity we can to promote this Province as a place to visit and a . place to invest in. So I come, Mr.

Speaker, to what would appear to -be a small and almost petty matter, but a matter which subtracts from our ability as members to do that job of selling and promotion. My friend and colleague for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) is not in the Chamber at the moment, but he was telling us in the past few L3925 December 3, 1985 Vol XL hours about an experience he had, not with the minister's department but with another department of government, trying to obtain basic promotion i terns, like those lapel pins, and flags, and so on and so forth, and some paraphernalia that we could send out to would-be tourists.

We are discovering, and perhaps someone on the government side can explain this or answer for it, that there seems to be an inconsistency in how these matters are dealt with. Now those flag lapel pins and those table flags and so on are paid for out of the taxpayers money and as members will know, in Ottawa _, in Queen's Park in Toronto, in other federal and provincial jurisdictions, members of the Chamber concerned have access to a reasonable number as part of our discharging our responsiblities not only to constituents but our responsibilities as ambassadors outside the Province.

And we find that that there are two rules here, one for government members and one for other members. And without getting into - MR. J. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: I tried! God knows I tried! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, that misinformation must be corrected and can be corrected at the time one hears it. We are all treated equally on this side, certainly as far as the buttons and paraphernalia that the member is speaking about. We are all treated equally, we buy them.

I bought a supply myself just the No. 72 R3925

other day, some $60 worth. However, many we want, we put in our order and it is looked after and we pay for them. Now that is a matter of record. The whole thing can be annotated, receipts can be shown, and the member right away should cease these kind of suggestions or insinuations. MR. TULK: That is not a point of order. MR. J. CARTER: It is a point of record. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. the member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: I thank my good friend from St. John's North for setting me straight once again. I thank him sincerely.

That he did not grasp the point I was making is another issue altogether. The point I was making is that it would be desirable, I say to the Minister of Development and Tourism, for members of this House to better practice their ambassadorship on behalf of Newfoundland, if a reasonable quantity of paraphernalia such as lapel pins and table flags, and so on, were made available to members of whatever party, members of the House, because they ·are members of the House, not because they belong to a particular party. That is the essential point I want to make.

As I said in preambling, it is a small point but it is a point that, as my friend from Port de Grave could illustrate with a couple of examples he has had in recent days, a couple of experiences, it would indicate there has been some L3926 December 3, 1985 Vol XL discrimination. That is not a charge that I want to make. What I want to say is that the administration, or the House itself, ought to take the question under advisement to help members of the House be better ambassadors by having available that kind of paraphernalia I mentioned. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR.

FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Since the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland) and the member for Torngat Mountains have introduced an element of tourism in Labrador I felt · it was more than appropriate that I would at least continue on, seeing that I am, geographically, in the same area. At the same time, I would like to thank the provincial government and it Department of Development and Tourism for their participation in the recent Economic Opportunities Conference held in my district. The department itself has some very good people in our area.

Our friend, Dave Lowe, is a very competent fellow, who is stationed in Labrador West for the department, and I would suggest he has done exemplary work since he has been there in terms of helping to develop the area. Just continuing on with the development of tourism in Labrador, the previous members spoke about the difficulties with regard to transportation, and they looked at it from the point of view of a ferry service and so on, and that is only half the problem. Of course, we could develop tourism in the Labrador region to the same extent that it No. 72 R3926

is developed in the Yukon, for example. In the Yukon right now, I understand that tourism is the number one industry. It actually put out mining as one of the industries, although, as the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) knows, there may be a change in that in the future but we are not quite sure of that at this point. But the fact is, Northern areas o.f the country are very major attractions for tourism.

In addition to what the previous two members have said about their districts, I could also indicate that in my district we have probably the best downhill and cross-country skiing facilities in the Province and, I would- argue, certainly in Canada and, on that basis, perhaps in the world itself. This weekend coming up, and I would like to mention it for members' sake, we have a world cup event in cross-country skiing being held in Labrador West. Approximately a dozen different countries are being represented up there, and just to refer back to the point that the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr.

S inunons ) mentioned, I would appreciate having some pins to hand out to some of the contestants. I just refer that to the minister in case he has a few in his pocket there. MR. BARRETT: There are lots of pins, come down and get them. MR. FENWICK: The point, Mr. Speaker, about tourism development in our district - by the way, one of the things my constituents told me about the last two elections up there is that snow is nice to have for six or eight months in the Winter but you surely would not L3927 December 3, 1985 Vol XL want to have it all year-long. Mr.

Speaker, getting back to the point, we have an excellent opportunity, I think, to increase the tourist industry in Labrador, but it is an area where we have to develop in terms of ground transportation. The problem that exists now is that the Labrador region, in general, is very difficult to get to. It is a little known fact, Mr. Speaker, that this time next year we expect to have the road completed from Baie Comeau, Quebec, up to Labrador West, and we expect to be able to drive back and forth on that road, at least in the Summer months, and then, in another year or two, in the Winter months as well.

This finally gives us relief from the isolation that has plagued parts of Labrador for, indeed, all its history, and it has plagued Labrador West for the last twenty-five or thirty years, since it was established. At the same time, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications - the Minister of Transportation, I am sorry, the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications is much maligned this week. We will continue on the Minister of Transportation.

We know from his statements that we are looking at approximately $25 million worth of development on the Trans-Labrador Highway, from Ross Bay Junction, which is the en~ of the road right now going from Labrador West towards Churchill Falls, in the direction of Churchill Falls. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, my estimate is that that will fall something like $10 million short of completing the road link to Churchill Falls and thence to Goose Bay, and really giving Goose Bay and the Coast of Labrador the No. 72 R3927

kind of boost it would require for tourism. I hold out this concept for you, and I think it is one that the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) , the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland), and, indeed, the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) will appreciate. Tourists do not like to double back on their steps; there i~ a reluctance on their part to take a long road that goes to one spot and then spend a couple of days going back over exactly the same territory they have already seen. What they lik_e is to go in circles, in routes. The member for St. Barbe (Mr. Efford) is also aware of it.

As a matter of fact, the member for St. Barbe would be interested in it. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, if we complete the road connections from our district to the member for Naskaupi's district and up through to the Coast, we can then have tourists who can drive up through the Province of Quebec, through Labrador West, through Churchill Falls up to Goose Bay, take a ferry there and then make the connection onto the Island part of the Province. I would even suggest, for the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Decker) and for the member for St.

Barbe, that there should be a stop to allow the cars to get off at the tip of the Northern Peninsula, because it is one of the strongest tourist areas in the Province. What we would then have is a classic loop which tourists could make. I would suggest that the strong attraction of the Northern part of Canada that they could see, and the strong attractions that exist in the St.

Anthony and the Coast of Labrador areas and, L3928 December 3, 1985 Vol XL indeed, in the rest of the Province, would give a tremendous impetus to tourism not only in the Labrador area, although we are concerned with that, but also to the Island portion of the Province, itself.

This is why I hope the Minister of Development and Tourism, who really appreciates this, because it was one of the points brought out at our conference, will be putting as much pressure as he possibly can on his Cabinet colleagues, and on the Minister of Transportation, to get that last $10 million to complete the road to Labrador West and between Goose Bay and Churchill Falls, so that we can indeed have this ground-base transportation. I must say I appreciate the fact that we are looking at $25 million over the next three or four years, according to the Minister of Transportation.

But really more is required if we are going to take the opportunity to develop it. The other item I would like to mention is that excellent conference, which the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Dinn) and the member for. Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren) attended - I was hoping we would have had other ministers there, as well, but still in all it was good representation for the government, better than we have had in the past, quite frankly, for certain events, and even the Minister of Mines and Energy, who was a keynote speaker, did not get booed in Wabush and I think that is a major accomplishment for the minister, he has finally overcome the hostility he experienced there before. Mr. Speaker, one of the other No. 72 R3928

things noted was that we have other opportunities there in tourism, as well. We are now developing hunting and fishing lodges which are being serviced from Labrador West for the first time on a consistent basis, and which are owned by residents of Labrador West. I would like to, at this time, recommend very strongly to members opposite and members on this side, as well, that if they are interested in some of the best fishing and -hunting they can possibly get in Labrador, we now have outfitters in Labrador West.

There is Ashuanipi Aviation and Ashuanipi Hunting and Fishing, and I highly recommend that very professional outfit, one that I think you will find will give you excellent value for your money, so we will put a commercial in for them. It is by a young fellow by the name of Michel Couette, a very, very capable fellow, who I think will do a good job. Mr. Speaker, that is one of the few things that I did want to say about development and tourism and about this particular bill.

I am glad to see we have a strong capable minister involved in this portfolio now and I am hoping that he will take to heart the kinds of things we have said about developing tourism not only for Labrador but, in the long-run, developing it for the Island, as well.

Hopefully he will get the extra $10 million required to complete the road so that we will be able to do the great, great circle, coming up through Quebec, through Labrador West to Goose Bay, on to the Island part of the Province and back through the Gulf service, and then, I think, we will have a tourist package that can be sold better than any other part of Canada. L3929 December 3, 1985 Vol XL Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : If the han. minister speaks now he closes the debate. The han. the Minister of Development and Tourism. MR. BARRETT: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I would have to say that I am most heartened with the debate this afternoon in that most of the observations which have been made, on both sides, have been very positive and have recognized some of the opportunities which exist in the tourism industry in Newfoundland and Labrador, and also recognize some of the difficulties that we have in delivering this product to the people of the Province, who are in-Province travellers and tourists, and to people from outside.

I think that the focus of the bill, of course, is to bring recognition to the significance of tourism in this Province and what it means to this government. I think the last statistics that I have seen would suggest that this particular industry is the third largest employer of any industry in this Province.

It is a very significant contributor to the wealth of Newfoundlanders and the wealth of the Provincial Treasury, it is one which cannot be lost sight of and one which this government has been making every effort to address in providing as much assistance and direction and programming and funding as is at all possible. I would like to recognize the contribution of my predecessor, the President of Treasury Board (Mr. Windsor), who because of his No. 72 R3929

singular efforts, brought into place a number of the agreements and a number of the initiative that have really projected tourism in Newfoundland into the Twentieth Century. I cannot accept any credit for that, but I would like to recognize the significant contribution that he and his previous colleagues have made in achieving this for the benefit of Newfoundland. I have made a few notes of some of the comments that have been made by members opposite, particularly regarding some of their concerns, and I will try to address some of them.

One of the members took issue, I think most incorrectly and unfairly, with trying to suggest that somehow or other this department has carved up the Province so that there were areas which were not included in the tourism agreement. I think that is most unfortunate, because if that particular member or his constituents had no success in accessing funding from the tourism agreement, it is not because that particular area of the Province has been singled out as being an area that should not receive any funding or assistance. It is most unfortunate that he would have taken that particular attitude.

I think if he had consulted with some of his colleagues, because the inference was, of course, that we were probably fortifying the Conservative constituencies in this Province, he would have come to realize how erroneous he was in that particular comment. Because I can single out, if necessary, a number of his associates, standing around and sitting around, that I know, first-hand, we have accommodated because constituents of theirs have identified worthwhile, meaningful, viable projects which fit the criteria of L3930 December 3, 1985 Vol XL the tourism agreement.

So it is· · unfortunate that that commentary had to be made. There is no area of Newfoundland specifically excluded from reference under the tourism agreement, so if the gentleman who has a problem would like to see me on it specifically, I will be more than happy to try to allay any of his fears in that regard. I was obviously, as most members here, most interested in the comments made by the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland). I could not agree with him more with ~espect to this attitude in most people's minds, that Newfoundland's tourist season runs from the latter part of June to the early part of September.

Officials, certainly in my department and, I think, government generally, have accepted the view that Newfoundland is a tourism destination for all twelve months of the year, and we have initiated a number of studies to confirm that several areas of this Province can, in fact, be developed into all-season resorts. Now, because you specify several areas of the Province, that does not mean that there is not a spin-off effect on other areas of the Province. Obviously you cannot create an all-season resort in every single community of the Province.

However, we have identified several areas and I think the one I might refer to specifically is the Marble Mountain area, where we are presently awaiting the results of a study, which has been funded by this government, with respect to identifying and developing the Marble Mountain area as an all-season resort. No. 72 R3930

I would like to indicate the significant contribution that is being made to tourism in Newfoundland by the private sector through Tourism Newfoundland. The private sector, in recent years, have become very professional about the way that they have addressed their industry, and I think that is most important. I do not think that government can always be the driving force behind all of these initiatives, the initiative must come from the private sector. The · initiative for enhanced facilities in a municipality, in a town, in an area, that initiative must come from the private sector.

One of the members mentioned the fact that there was not enough information in a tourism brochure, or an information kit, on a ferry relating to a specific destination for that ferry. Well, from a government' s perspective, or from a department' s perspective we can only do so much in identifying some of the highlights to familiarize a tourist with who wants to visit that particular area.

But each of these destination areas has a local Tourism Association, or a local Development Association, or a local municipality, or a local Board of Trade, or Chamber of Commerce or interest group that should make it their business to see that the aspects of their particular town, or area, or region which need to be highlighted are, in fact, made known to the department so that the information can be obtained and can be included in the information brochures. The onus cannot always be on a government department to do this.

If there is a short fall in information, if you checked it through, it is more often than not because the local L3931 December 3, 1985 Vol XL community has not attempted to highlight those aspects of its area that it wants to offer as a tourism inducement. I would like to recognize the initiative of some of the residents of St. Barbe and the Strait of Belle Isle in highlighting the concept of the Viking Trail. It has been their initiative which has really brought that concept of the Vikings, and the significance of Vikings to tourism of Newfoundland, into the department.

But because they had the initiative and they did it, then the department was able to co-ordinate and assist to identify this area as a high-profile tourism destination area for the Province and it is working. The local people down there have arranged festivals and various events to accommodate visitors when they come into their area. There is a significant short fall, I might suggest, in accommodations, I would also suggest there is a significant short fall in mai l service, but, hopefully, all of these things will be addressed there as they are being addressed in other parts of the Province.

The significance of the L'Anse-au-Meadow site to this Province and to the New World, and the fact that this particular settlement alone puts Newfoundland and Labrador, again, apart from the rest of Canada, from the rest of North America - there is nowhere else in North America where they can identify the landing sites of Vikings 1,000 years ago - was such that this year, through the ini tia ti ve of a bunch of private citizens, who formed a Grey Cup Committee, my department was convinced and I was No. 72 R3931

convinced that one of the best ways of spending a few dollars in promotional activities was to participate in the Grey Cup Parade. We did that in a very significant way, by funding a float in this p