PRELHIINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of Assembly For the period: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 -.m. Wednesday, March 16, 1977

March 1 6 , 1 9 7 7 Tape 1039 IB-1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to draw to the attention of han. members the presence of five students from United Junior High School representing GradeVll to Grade IX accompanied by their teacher,Miss Parsons. I know all hon. members join me in welcoming these students from United Junior High in St. John's. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, I have the duty and the pleasure to present a petition from Hillgrade in the district of Twillingate. I am a little unsure as to the actual source of the petition because there is a covering letter which reads as f ollo.ws: "To whom it may concern; the Committee on Petition and Appeal passed a resolution that the opening of clubs on the Sabb3:th day be prohibited. This resolution has been adopted by the Provincial Grand Lodge of Newfoundland and Labrador.

As a primary lodge Rahab Lodge No. 131, Hillgrade, has been requested to circulate a petition in their community so that all who are in favour with the resolution of having clubs closed on the Sabbath day could support by placing their signatures below in the space provided. "Upon successfully canvassing the community of Hillgrade Rahab Lodge No. 131 will present the said petition to their elected member in the House of Assembly." And it is signed by the Worshipful Master and the Recording Secretary with 398 signatures. This is the local lodge in Hillgrade of the Loyal Orange Association.

And I gather the impression, Mr. Speaker, that is one of a number of petitions that the LOA are circulating to their primary lodges, this being perhaps the first to come to the House. The prayer of the petition is quite simple, that clubs that sell intoxicating liquor~I assume,shall be

March 16, 1977 Tape 1039 IB-2 MR. SMALLWOOD: prevented by law from opening on Sunday. Now I do not know whether they really mean to stop selling intoxicating liquor on Sunday or to close down altogether. I am not sure. But I present the petition to the House and ask that it be laid on the table and given prayerful consideration by the government of the Province. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. Perhaps before the han. gentleman speaks I would welcom~ to the gallery the mayor and town clerk of the Town of Bay Roberts who are in the legislature this afternoon. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a few words on the petition, Sir. As members of the House are probably aware, Mr. Speaker, alcoholism is one of the biggest problems we have in Newfoundland today. There are 13~000 fulJ-fledged alcoholics in Newfoundland at the present time. MR. SMALLWOOD: How many? MR. NEARY: 13,000 full-fledged and-21,000 what they call silent drinkers. MR. WHITE: Problem ~ problem drinkers. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. And, Mr.

Speaker, the government takes in on the average I suppose of $30 million or $35 million a year as a result of the sale of booze and beer. A lot of this is taken in on the days that my han. friend referred to in the petition. Yet the government, Sir, only spends I would say, on the average, $65,000 to $70,000 or $80,000 a year for educating our people into the dangers of drinking, excessive drinking. It is the oldest drug problem we have, Sir, in society. And something has to be done about it. I am not sure if the answer - MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. NEARY: It They say it is getting worse than dope. is worse than dope.

Well that is what I just said, it is the oldest drug problem that we have and yet everybody seems to talk about marijauna, which is peanuts

March 16,1977 Tape 1039 IB-3 MR. NEARY: compared to the drinking that is going on in this Province, especially now the teenage drinking. It is a major problem, Sir. I know I cannot go into any great detail, Sir. I wish I could. .­ '· 2885

~~rch 16, 1977, Tape 1040, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: I could spend the rest of the afternoon talking about the effects of alcohol on our people. Drunkenness, Sir, drunkenness is a big problem today in Newfoundland, especially among teenagers. I do not know if the answer is in the prayer of that petition or not, Sir. I have grave doubts whether it is or not. No doubt the people who circulated the petition are well intentioned. I believe what needs to be done, Sir, there needs to be more money and more programmes implemented by this governm~~t for the health and care of the alcoholic in this Province.

The other day the Minister of Justice in answer to a question that I put to the minister about advertising booze and beer in this Province, the minister told me it came under the CRTC. Well I have news for the minister; it comes under this Province, under the minister. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I must draw to the hon. member's attention the requirement that he confine his remarks to the allegation of the petition and that deals with the request that certain establishments be closed on Sunday.

So the whole area of alcohol consumption in general,or government's policy on its regulation in general,is certainly outside the purview of the petition. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Well thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, Mr. Speaker, just as regulating taverns and bistros and club and cabarets on Sundays come under the jurisdiction of the provincial government, so also, Sir, does the advertising of booze and beer in this ~rovince come under the jurisdiction of the government. The Minister of Justice may not be aware of that.

I do not know whether I support the petition or not, Sir, but I must say it raises some very interesting questions. No doubt the people who circulated it, their intentions were honourable. I do not believe it is the answer. I think what needs to be done, Sir, is that we need an education programme

March 15, 1977, Tape 1040, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: spending probably $3 million or $4 million a year instead of $80,000 or $90,000 as we are spending now to try to educate our people into the seriousness of excessive drinking. MR. SPEAKER: Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the member for Burgeo- Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Fisheries I have a question for the Premier. It relates to the longliner.programme announced this morning by the ~linister of Fisheries at the conference at the Holiday Inn.

I wonder could the Premier indicate to the House whether the reported $35 million :W().:r!=h of funding is indeed an ·accurate figure and would he indicate from what sources that money will be coming? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: First of all, Mr. Speaker, it is a long-term programme and the details will be given by the M1nister of Fisheries when he comes back. MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: programme will begin? }ffi.. SPEAKER: PREMIER MOORES : HR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMHONS : A supplementary. Can the Premier indicate when the The hon. the Premier. Hopefully this year, }rr. Speaker. A supplementary.

Mr. Speaker, can the Premier indicate - as a supplementary - can he indicate though whether the federal government is participating to any degree in the funding of this programme? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER IDORES: Not as yet, Mr. Speaker, no. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for LaPoile. VMR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice, Sir. Wlil~n ~~rian~i:'~e~ . and his group arrived in St. Anthony with the helicopters, they were picketed 288'7

}furch 16, 1977, Tape 1040, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: and the demonstrators surrounded the helicopters. Ninety or one hundred R.C.M.P. officers were called in to St. Anthony. Now my question to the minister is this; now that the demonstrators, the anti-seal hunt demonstrators have gone out on the ice and are interfering with the seal hunt,is it not right and proper that the R.C.M.P. should now· be dispatched to the ~:r:e>n_ t to protect those who are legally prosecuting the seal fishery, -~h~ ____ s~~~ as they did on land when- they drove the protesters away from the helicopters?

Should they not also go to the Front? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAl.'i: Mr. Speaker, that question was --- --- · _ ~1?l_<f£4_ here yesterday and I asked for a report which I have just recieved. As it is in international waters, certain members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, fourteen all told, have been appointed fisheries guardians under

section 5(3) of the Fisheries Act~ Revised Statutes of Canada ,

Chapter 119,

Section _6 .- This gives them the right to enforce the regulations, particularly as they relate to the seal protection regulations. How many men 2888

~rch 16, 1977 Tane 1041 Page 1. MR.HICKMAN: go out into the international waters or go out onto the ' ice would not be the prerogative of,or the responsibility of,indeed nor the right of a provincial Attorney General~but I believe that the federal Department of Fisheries through the appropriate officer is taking the required steps to avail of the services of the RCMP in their capacity as fisheries guardians. MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary. MR.NEARY: Would the minister indicate then if in actual fact RCMP officers have been dispatched to the Front as quickly as they were dispatched to St.

Anthony when the demonstrators on the other side moved into St. Anthony? MR. SPE/> .. KER : The hon. minister. MR. HICKMAN: I cannot give the, you know, the quickness of it is a comparative thing • My understanding was as I advised the Eouse yesterday that there were some R,CMP officers at the Front yesterday.

I cannot say definitively whether there are any there today, I can only tell you,because I just this minute received this report since the House opened,that fourteen men have been appointed as fisheries guardians to deal with matters at, (quote)" the Front!' That would imply to me that there are some out there but I am not sure, and they would not have to tell me. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I presume the minister is aware of this new booklet published by the Federal Department of Environment and Fisheries called the 11 Seal Hunt'; which is the best that I have seen so far in connection with the sealing industry in Newfoundland.

The question I have for the minister ; would the minister undertake to look into the possibility of getting sufficient copies of this booklet,which is very well done, the best I have seen so far~as I said a f~w moments ago, get copies to distribute to th~ media throughout the world to try to offset some of this unfavourable ~ublicity that we are getting throughout the world? Because the damage is not being done on the home front, the damage will be done later on with the films and the pictures. Will the minister undertake to look into the possibility

March 16, 1977 Tape No. 1041 MR. NEARY: of having this booklet, or have the Government of Canada distribute this booklet throughout the world? MR.. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. ~- 2 MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I understand that my colleagues, in particular my colleagues the Minister of Industrial Development and the ~inister of Tourism,are already initiating rrocedures to see whether or not the Government of Canada can be persuaded to distribute the booklet, Sir, as described by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary).

And I understand as well that my colleague, the Minister of Industrial Development,is giving some very serious consideration to having a local group put out a very accurate information for distribution outside the Province. May I say while I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that I voice the sentiments of all hon. members when I congratulate ~r. Richard Cashin for the magnificent performance that he put on on television last night, national television,and where he articulated so clearly the determination of the people of Newfoundland to protect a war of life that we will not see diminished in any way.

SOME HON. ~~ERS: Hear! Hear! MR.. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: One additional supplementary, the original questioner. Mr. Speaker, unfortunately I did not see Mr. Richard Cashin last night, I was on my way back from Toronto where I had done a programme on Canada AM on the same matter. This raises an interesting question too, Sir, Is the minister aware that even Canadians across Canada, that we are getting a lot of anti-seal hunt people across Canada?

Right in front ·of Eaton's while I was there there was a group of school kids demonstrating and taking up a collection against the seal hunt and when you question them and ask them what they are doing they are completely ignorant of the seal hunt. They do not know what it is all about. So will the minister - MR. WHITE: The second largest donation to Davies co~es from Canada. 28SO

~arch 16, 1977 Tape No. 1041 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: The second largest donation- comes from Canadian peo?le, that is right, Sir. But will the minister also undertake an educational programme across Canada, you know - MR. LUNDRIGAN: He have been at that since 1949. MR. NEAR~ _; An educational programme to try to educate·. Canadians into the advantages and the necessity for the seal hunt in this Province? Is the minister going to respond? 1-'R.. HICIQ-fA.'KJ': I cannot respond to that. MR.. SPEAKER : Is any hen. member standing on a supplementary? The hen. member for Fogo on a supplementary. CAPTAIN WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary to the Minister of Justice. The Minister of Justice stated that the hunt was carried on in international waters .IH th the enforcement of the 200 mile limit, they are now within Canadian waters. I stand to be corrected~but be that as it may, following the minister's statement that fourteen RCXP officers were now at the hunt, 2851

March 16, 1977 Tape 1042 PK - 1 Capt. Winsor: does the minister know where they are located? Are they located on the Canadian registered ships? If so, how many on each ship? MR. SPEAKER: · The bon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: I did no.t say there were fourteen RCMP officers at the hunt. CAPT. ~o/'INSOF. : Well MR. HICKMAN: - at the Front. I said, Mr. Speaker, that the position of the RCMP as it relates to the operations on the Front is one of assistance to the fisheries officers. To this end fourteen members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have been appointed fisheries guardians under

Section 5 (3) of the Fisheries Act,the revised Statutes of Canada,

Chapter 119, Section (6) for enforcement purposes, particularly as they relate to the seal protection regulations. Now with respect to the 200 mile limit, the 200 mile economic zone, that does not, as I understand it, take away the feature of internatiDnal waters. It.does give the §overnment of Canada, . or the Government of Canada has asserted, the right to control the 200 mile e~onomic zone and to conserve the species therein or thereunder or thereabove or therearound,which is quite a different thing.

A very interesting question . does arise, to which I can assure this House law officers of the Crown are directing their attention, as to whether or not if a person or persons within a province, within provincial jurisdiction,canspires to commit a breach of a regulation outside the province, whether or not a person or persons cannot be charged with conspiring to commit public mischief. That is a fairly - as ¥our Honour will realize - is a fairly good question that legal scholars are most assuredly directing their attention to, and one th~t will not be overlooked. MR.

SPEAKER: I will recognize the hon. member from Fogo for one additional supplementary, and then I will follow with some other members. Thatwill not preclude bon. members later from coming back

March 16, 1977 Tape 1042 PK - 2 Mr. Speaker: to the subject if time permits. The hon. member from Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To the ~~inister of Justice; in view of the incident which happened yesterday, would the minister undertake to find out whether there was-an RC11P officer doing the work of a fishery officerJ and if he had the authority to go on the ice, and to relieve that man who had shackled himself to a whip cable which was being towed,or used for towing or pulling the carcasses or pelts to--the side of the ship? _ You know,_ did the crew have the proteetion of any officer, whether he be a fishery officer or a~·. RCMP? MR. NEARY: Brian Davies had the protection here. CAPT. WINSOR: Right. Sure. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: There is an indication, Mr. Speaker, because the report that I have received,some of it is hearsay relating on - well let me read this part that relates to it - according to the Fisheries Department,Paul Watson the Greenpeace Leader, and one Ballam,believed to be a lawyer,along with thirteen other members of the Greenpeace were at the hunt 15th. March. They harassed sealers by throwing some of their equipment in the water. However the sealers ignored them, and had not complained to the RCMP concerning the actions of Greenpeace.

This gentleman, Paul Watson~apparently was the man who attached himself to a cable hauling seals aboard the sealing ship Martin Carlson. He was subsequently taken aboard where he was provided a change of clothing and fed. Mr. Watson was given the opportunity to leave the ship but he declined • ./ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, this question to the Minister of Mines and Energy. Does the Government of Newfoundland now or any of its Crown corporation purchase from Golden Eagle their oil products, Bunker C or what have you,without the benefit of tender? 2893

1;1arch 16, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: MR.. PECKFORD: MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: Tape 1042 PK - 3 The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. I will take that as notice, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Would the minister also take notice to advise the House as to what portion of the Bunker C being used by the Government of Newfoundland or its Crown corporations, particularly Hydro, has been refined and shipped in from Quebec? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: I wili take that as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Pardon me? MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: One additional supplementary. 2894

Y.arch 16,1977 Tape 10l~3 .w- 1 :!-~ .• FLIGHT: Yr. Speaker, in vie1v of the contributj on that the high cost of Bunker C products means to the production of electricity in this Province, would the minister agree that any savings to be had by publtc tender could be passed along to the consumers of electricity in this Province? ~-"'P-.• PECKFORD: I ~v-ill take that as notice, ~r. Speal~ er. ::Mli' . SPEAKEP_: The hon. member for Terra Nova. ~1'P. . • T. LUSF: Y.r.

Speaker, in the absence of the ~inister of Finance I want to direct a question to the Y.inister of }fanpo1v-er, and I wonder if the minister is in a position to inform the House as to whether or not there are any new developments with respect to resolving the Waterford strike? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. l''R. J. ROUSSEAU: Nothing beyond my_ knowledg~ that the ~1' inister of Finance and President of Treasury Board said yesterday. ~. LUSH: A supplementary, 1'-rr·. Speaker. ~ . SPEAKEP.: A supplementary, original questioner. YR . LUSH: Again to the 'Vinister of }Tanpower.

I am wondering if the minister can tell the Rouse to what degree does the number of volunteer workers approximate the numbers of workers that would be on a normal shift at the Waterford? ~- . SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of }Kanpower. ~. ROUSSEAU: I have no idea. NR. LUSH: A supplementary question, ~~r. Speaker. MR. SPRAKER: An additional supplementary question, original questioner. ~"1' •• LUSH: I put this question to the House Leader.

I wonder if the House Leader is able to inform the House as to whether or not there are any people, not related to management, at the r~aterford,and not related to what would be called necessary work for the operation of the Haterford, whether there are any such people forcecl to cross the picket lines? ~!P .• SPEAKEP.: The hon. }finister of Justice. M?.. RI C_<:!' ... AN : ~fast assuredly not to my knowledge, ~-1'r. Speaker. 1fR. NEARY : ~"'r. Speaker, a supplementary. IP.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for LaPoile. 28!:15

r.rarch 16, 1977 Tape 1043 IB-2 }'R. NEAP.Y: }~r. Speaker, I would like to ask the ~·~inister of Justice: the strike seems to have spilled over into the sports arena, the Prince IJf Hales Arena last . night. Can the minister give us a report on what happened over there, a near riot breaking out over at the Prince Of Wales Arena last night? t!:R. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Justice. ¥r. Speaker, number one~I have heard of no evidence to indicate a near riot in any arena in St. John's or any other part of Newfoundland.

I have seen in the press where the police who were on duty handled a disturbance in an ice arena in St. John's. And according to the press there was one arrest made. That being the case it would be most unwise and L~proper, if not indeed illegal,for me to comment any further on it. ~T_ . NEARY: A supplementary, ~~r. Speaker. }~. SPEAKEP: An additional supplementary. ¥R. NEARY: noes the minister have a report,or has the minister asked for a report on this incidence of major proportions that took place at Prince Of Wales Arena last night?

Is the minister just speaking off the top of his head or does the minister have a report or is the minister going to get a report? The han. ¥inister of Justice. !'IY • HI CK'-f AN : I have no doubt, ¥r. Speaker, that if charges have indeed been laid that some Crown prosecutor answerable to the Director of Public Prosecutions will in time receive a report,and he then will advise the police ~vhat procedure if any should be followed.

But reports that come in to either the minister or to anyone in the Department of Justice must by their very nature be absolutely confidential, totally and absolutely confidential,including the fact of whether or not there 'tvas a report 1-!R. NEARY: I am not worrying about whether it is confidential. Does the minister have a report? ~T. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member for Eagle River. ~All.. ST'PAC!L\N: A question for the Minister of Hines and Energy,

:March 16, 1977 Tape 1043 IB-3 MR. STPACF.AL'l': ~{r. Speaker. Could the minister tell us when he expects Eastcan to make a decision on commencing drilling off the coast? And from his discussions with them does he expect them to go ahead? ~-. SPEAKER: 1--!P_. PECKFORD: The hen. ~~inister of ~~ines and Energy. ~{r. Speaker, I do not know the ansvrer to that question right now,but negotiations are continuing. MP_. STFACHAN: A supplementary, }'r. Speaker. l<'F. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~-'R.

STPACHAN: Could the_ minister tell us why if Eastcan have not made a decision to drill,and in fact are threatening not to drill, why they are flying considerable supplies - and I mean a steady stream, a steady movement of supplies - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Questions are supposed to be within the area of a minister's administrative responsibility. And I would think the reasons that private corporations ~vould do something would rec-.lly not be within a mini.ster's area of administration, something for which he is not accountable to the House.

It is matters in vrhich the hon. minister must be accountable to the House that he be questioned on. If the han. member wishes to raise an additional supplementary rephrased I would recognjze hjm. ZS9'7

Ya rch 16 , 19 7 7 Tape 1044 IB-1 }'P.. STRACF.Pu'l: Could I try and rephrase? Is the minister aware of oil drilling companies flying supplies, a steady movement of supplies,into the community of Hopedale to build a base there, especially in view of the fact that they said they may not drill? !-11\. ~m. ~'R. PECKFOP..D: STP.ACHA.."'l: SP~QP.: I am aware of the activity, ~~r. Speaker. ~-Ar. Speaker - Is this a supplementary? A suppl_ementary, Yr. Speaker.

Could the minister indicate that if supplies are being flown in so early in the year, whether he expect the drilling season to open early jn July or whether they expect to be drilling on land? Is that a consideration? }ffi.. STP.ACHA£1 : ~. SPEAKEP.: The hen. }~inister of Y.ines and Energy. }(!!_, PECKFOP.D: That is in the realm of conjecture, ~r. Speaker, and I cannot comment on that. ¥R. SPEAKEP.: The han. member for Letvisporte. HR. HHITE: t~r. Speaker, I have a question for the 1--'inister of ~~ines and Energy. It relates to the St. Lawrence mines.

I wonder if the minister could tell us whether or not he has any definite word from the company with respect to the closing of that particular mineZ I have heard some reports that they are looking into it and considering it,and I kno"t-7 that the people in the area are quite concerned about it. Could the minister tell us something about that? HR. SPE.A.KER: ¥.R. PECKFORD: The han. }~inister of Mines and Energy. No, }~r. Speaker, but the department is in constant contact with the company. Y.P .• WHITE: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. 1"'! .• SPEAKER: A supplementary. ¥P. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the minister could indicate to the House -.:v-hether he has had any conversations himself with officials of the company in recent weeks or months with respect to this,and if any meetings are planned~ }ffi, SPEAKEP: The hen. Minister of }~ines and Energy. }~. PECKFORD: ~·!e are meeting with them almost on the hour, 1-·rr. Speaker, and I have had meetings over the last month or two with people in the com?any.

Harch 16, 1977 Tape 1044 IB-2 l!R. SPEPJ<EP.: The hon. T!'ember for StephenviJle,followed by the hon. member for LaPoile and the hon. member for Terra Nova. !-fP .• }.fCNEIL: 1-!r. Speaker, a auestion to the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Since the Harmon Corporation has been without a board chairman since November with the resignation of ~r. Frank Spencer, is it the government's intention to fill this vacant position and if so when? ~. SPEP....KER: The hon. Yinister of ~~unicipal Affairs and Housing. ¥'R .• DINN: Yes, ~r.

Speaker, and very shortly. }':F. • SPEAKEP.: The hon. _member for LaPoile. 1~. NFAP.Y: A question for the han. the Premier. ~vould the hon. the Premier indicate to the House what specific plans the administration have to try and cope with the record unemployment we have in the Province at the present time? ~- · SPRAKER: The hon. Premier. PF.EJ.~ER HOOP.ES: Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult in a very quick answer to give an ans~ver to that. During the debate I am sure these will all be brought up. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. A supplementary.

"MF • SPEAKER: ~<R .• NEARY: Hould the Premier indicate if there are any plans to include teenagers and those in their early twenties in any plans the government might have for trying to come to grips with the unemployment problems in the Province? 1-P.. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier . PRE}qER ¥.00PES: Yes,there will be, Mr. Speaker. MP.. NEARY: A supplementary, Ur. Speaker. MP .. SPE.A..KEF.: A supplementary. MF. NE_A.RY: Could the Premier tell the House just the exact number of people who are unemployed in Newfoundland at the present time? MR. SPE.A~R: The han. Premier.

PF.EY:IER l~OOP.ES : No, I am afraid I cannot, ?-1r. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. t"F .• SPEAKEF: One additional supplementary. ZSS9

~'arch 16, 1977 Tape 1044 IB-3 I-T,. 1"EARY : Has the Premier made any attempt or anybody in the administration made any attempt to find out the exact unemployment situation in Newfoundland at the present t1"me?. If f so, i. they have not, would they undertake to do it? ~'IR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PP.IDAIER MOORES: No, we have not, Mr. Speaker, for the simple reason we have to depend on the federal h · ~ !!1ec .. an1sm .-.or that. He are having trouble ~.vith getting our statistics bi.ll through this establishment. ~ ~. NEAP.Y: Do not be muttering, boy. Speak up. I could not hear the Premier.

He was mut-tering. ~·4J? .• MUF.PHY: If you had been here last night you would have heard all about it. ~-· SIW10NS: Count yourself lucky. JAR. NEAPY: I ~"as counting on the l!lajority of Newfoundlanders last night. MP. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member for Terra Nova. HR. LUSH: A question for the Minister of Justice, again related to the Waterford situation. I wonder if the minister is in a position to inform the House as to what is the extent of the involvement of the Newfoundland Constabulary in the strike? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. HR. HI~AN: The Newfoundland Constabulary, Mr.

Speaker, are providing for peace and security with respect to the free flow of people to and from the Waterford,which they are obliged to do. 1.Ji thin the institution itself the situation is as described by my colleague the President of the Treasury Board on several occasions. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker. ~.f.R. SPEAKER: A supplmentary, original questioner. 1'-T-.• LUSH: I am just wondering, ¥r. Speaker, whether the Newfoundland Constabulary again have been asked to keep a continual surveillance on the picket lines and if so, how ~Any are involved? MR. HICKY.AN: I cannot answer that question, Mr.

Speaker . That would

}~rch 16, 1977 Tape 106.4 Y.F . HI CKMAN: be purely and simply a decision for the Chief ~f . Police. }~~. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. !-ffi_. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NF~~Y : Would the minister tell the House if it is correct IB-4 that members of the Newfoundland Constabulary who are lN'orking in the hospital off duty~ duri.ng their off time,are receiving $100 a shift plus fringe benefits, T-bone steaks, mushrooms and the works? Is this correct? !"F. . SPE.AKEP.: lJt • HI Cl(}'f..AN : The han. Minister of Just i ce. I have no idea, ~r.

Speaker, what the Nelvfoundland Constabulary are receivjng when they are performing their duties and that is part of their duties. ~ . NEAJ?Y: No, off dut y . :'P.. HI CK:¥ AN : L.et me say this, that

Harch 16,1977 AH-1 that whatever the Ne"1foundland Constabulary are receiving they are worth every solitary cent of it. SO~E RON. l1EMBERS : Hear, hear! ~-m. LUSF: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. }~ •• SPEAKER: Ron. member for Terra Nova. ;rR. LUSH: Again, £-fr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice this question, and it is related to the volunteer workers who are working in the cafeteria of the hospital 1!.certainly an area that calls for a lot of expertise,and I wonder if the minister is in a position to inform the House to what extent are the people presently looking after the cafeteria trained to do that particular work? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. HICK¥cAN : Mr.

Speaker, as Minister of Justice I am iust not in a position to ans~.rer that question. :<umber one I do ~ot know_ what kind of expertise is required in a cafeteria and number two, I have no idea who is working in t~e cafeteria. That does not come under my department or my portfolie. !{R. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary,and then I recognize the han. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR.

NEA~: Would the minister indicate to the House if the patients inside the hospital 1.rho are being paid to perform the duties of those \vho are out on strike, if they are receiving the mimimum wage or are they being paid a set amount of money? AN RON. MEMBER: The patients. ~. NEAF~: The patients who are being paid,are they receiving the mimimum wage? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. HIC~A."'T: Hr. Speaker, this does not come under the Hinister of Justice. I ~vould assume, Mr. Speaker, that whatever arrangements

March 16,1977 Tape lO~tS AH-2 NR. HICIG-f...AN: if any are made betr•7een - SOME EON. MEMBERS : _ . Qh ~ o~~ MR. SPEA..TZER: Order, order please' ~1R. HICKMAN : - bet1:..reen the Board of Management of the Haterford Hospital and anyone who is employed therein. I have no idea who is being paid or what amount,and I have no way of finding out. MR. SPEft~R: Ron. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir. MR. SI~ONS: Fr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Public 1.Vorlcs MR. ~-illiTE: He __ was fold too~ by_ the_way. __ ~. SIM}IONS: .... a man who can never be muzzled, Hr.

Speake--c, I say for a man who can never be muzzled even by an instruction from the Premier, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please! I should point out to the hon. gentleman the requirement that in offering questions no argument or opinion is to be stated and 'only such facts as are necessary to make the question intelligible,and I would think that the latter remark was out of order. The b,on. member. "-ffi. • SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, I do realize that I stated a fact that was not pertinent to the question, a fact . nevertheless. Mr. ~peaker a question for - MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please!

The slip-ping in of that phrase was out of order~and I would regard it as more . - than a technical out of order. It could well have a connotation somewhat different than - more than a technical out of order. I would ask the han. gentleman to withdra"to7 it. MR. SIMHONS: Of course , Hr. S-peaker, thank you~ I shall do it very happily, Sir. Hr. Speaker, a question for the Hinister of Public Harks. It relates to the Health Sciences Com-plex. I wonder, first of all,could the ~~inister indicate to

~ farch 16 ,1977 Ta-pe 1045 AF-3 Jv!R. SINMONS: the House >vhat amonnts of money in total have been forthcoming from the federal government in respect to that project to date? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. ROUSSEAr: The only comment that I can make now is that I have undertaken, either - I or the Premier will make a statement fully when all the facts are available. And we hope to do that in the very near future. MR. SD!NONS: Mr.

Speaker, could the minister indicate whether the funding from the fed_eral government has now been completed or does the Province anticipate or expect to receive additional funding in respect to the project? MR. SPEAKER: · The hon. minister. ---. . - - MR. ROUSSEAU: I >·muld rather \·<ait and make the complete statement rather than give bits and pieces. MR. SIMYONS: A supplementary, ~1r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SD1MONS: I wonder would the minister indicate what is now the projected completion date for the Health Sciences Complex? r1R. ROUSSEAU: January 1,1978.

Occupancy sometime in March, 1978. . MR. SIMHONS: He answers questions , that fellow. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Eagle River. - ---- HR. STRACHAN: I have questions again _ for the Minister of Mines and Energv. Could the minister tell us whether his department' or this administration has any intention of carrying out an environmental baseline study similar to the ones w·hich have been carried out in the Arctic and the Subarctic and thP Beaufort Sea before the oil exploration: companies progress too far down the road in their oil drilling l)rogramme? MR.. SPEAKER: The han. minister.

March 16,19 77 Tape 1045 illi - 4 MR.. PECKFORD : \\l'e will be indicating our position on that very shortly, Mr. Speaker. HR.. STRACHAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ~fR . SPEP_T{ER: A supplementary. MR. STRACHAN: -~Quld the minister tell us if they are going to carry out an environmental baseline study, couid. he indicate that the companies within this Province, environmental consultant companies or other consultant companies within this Province are given priority and opportunity to carry out that work rather than corporations or companies from outside of t~e Province, such as in the case of the Brinex Uranium Corporation.

March 16, 1977 TapP. no. 1046 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.. PECKFORD : The government is always eager to see that the companies in this Province get first crack at all work that is available. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, this question is to the Minister of Tourism. Since we have not heard that much about the Norma and Gladys this past couple of months, I was wondering if the minister would advise the House of the whereabouts of the Norma and Gladys right now? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. HICKEY: I did not notice it was missing, Mr.

Speaker. She is at the CNR. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Would the minister advise the House what it is costing the Province to wharf that boat at the CNR dock? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. HICKEY: Free gratis, Mr. Speaker, nothing. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, with the consent of the House it has been agreed that instead of Private Members' Day we move to government business. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the hon. minister have consent that we proceed with government business today? Agreed? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. MR.. HICKMAN: Order 2. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Legislative Disabilities Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 6).

March 16, 1977 Tape no. 1046 Page 2 - mw On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker -left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE: MR.. CHAIRMAN : Order! MR. HICKMAN : Order 5, Bill No. 23. A bill,"

An Act To Enable The Bennett Brewing Company Limited To Become A Federal Corporation." Motion that the Committee report having passed the bill withQut amendment, carried. MR.. HICKMAN: Order 6, Bill No. 24. A bill, "An Act to Repeal The Canadian Javelin Limited (Acquisition Of Crown Lands) Act, 1970." MOtion that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. MR. HICKMAN: Order 9, Bill No. 31. Z9D7

}farch 16, 19 77 Tape 1047 IB-1 A bill, "...An Act To Style The Department Of ~fanpm·ter And Industrial P.elations Act As The Department Of Labour P.nd ~~anpo"rer." (Bill No. 31) On motion Clause 1 through to r.lause 3 carried. ~R. CF-AIRYAN: Shall the

preamble carry? MR. HICI01'Mr: ~r. Speaker, this is really a typo,I guess, but I have to move that the word 'act' be stricken out after relations in the second line. It will read, ~'An Act To Style The Department Of ~A.:anpm;..7er And Industr~l Relations As The Department of Labour And I·fanpo"1er." Mp_, CHAIPYAN: It is moved that the word 'act' be stricken from the title. Shall the amendment carry? Carried. On motion the Committee reports having passed the bill with amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act To Amend The P_eal Estate Trading Act." (Bill No. 27) On motion Clause 1 through to Clause 17 carried.

On motion the Committee reports having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act Respecting The Registration And Regulation Of Consumer Pee porting Agencies." (Bill No. 18) On motion Clause 1 through to Clause 34 carried. On motion the Committee reports having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, nAn Act To Amend The Fnconscionalbe Transactions P.elief Act." (Bill No. 30) MR. CHAIR!-fAN : Shall Clause 1 carry? 2908

March 16, 1977, Tape 1048, Page 1 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: Mr. S~eaker, I move that the following amendment be added thereto: "Sections 4(

a) and 4(

b) of the Act as enacted bv

Section 1 of this Act, applies only to money lent after the coming into force of this Act." I am told by the legislative draftsman that that is to prevent somebody having a successful defence to any action which might be taken thereunder. MR. SIMMONS: Could the minister repeat the amendment again and .the explanation? MR. HICKMAN: Yes. Sections 4(

a) and 4(

b) of the Act as enacted by

Section 1 of this Act, applies only to money lent after the coming into force of this Act. The advice I received from the legislative draftsman is that this will prevent someone from coming in subsequently and moving to have a case dismissed under an action taken under this Act, under that defence that is well established in the law of non-retroactivity of legislation. I am sure hon. members will agree that it is the responsibility of this House to try where possible to plug any avenues there may be to escape what the intention of the legislature is. On motion amendment carried.

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Unconscionable Transactions Relief Act." (Bill No. 30). Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill with amendment, carried. On motion that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR.. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker,the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report having passed bills Nos. 31 and 30 with some amendments and ask leave to sit again. On motion report received and adopted.

On motion amendments read a first and second time, bills ordered a third time now by leave.

March 16, 1977, Tape 1048, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Chairman of the Committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report having passed bills No. 23, 24, 27 and 18 without amendment, and ask leave to sit again. On motion, report received and adopted, bills ordered read a third time now, by leave. On motion the following bills read a third time ordered passed and title be as on t.he Order Paper. A bill, "An Act Respecting The Registration and Regulation Of Consumer Reporting Agencies." (Bill No. 18).

A bill, "An Act To Enable The Benne.tt Brewing Company Limited To Become A Federal Corporation." (Bill No. 23).

March 16, 1977 Tape 1049 PK - 1 MR. HICKMAN: Order 6, Bill No. 24. On motion, a bill "An Act To Repeal The Canadian Javelin Limited (Acquisition Of Crown Lands) Act, 1970", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. MR.; HICKMAN: Order 7, Bill No. 27. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Real Estate Trading Act", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. MR. HICKMAN: Order 8, Bill No. 30. On motion, a b~ll, "An Act To Amend The Unconscionable Transactions Relief Act", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. MR.

HICKMAN: Order . 9, Bill No. 31. On 11!-0tion, a bill, "An Act To Style The Department Of Manpower And Industrial Relations Act As The Department Of Labour And Manpower", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. MR. HICKMAN: Order 10, Bill No. 12. -~-t -~on, ~-~-con_'! _ !e~d~g~ _ ·a __ bill 11

An Act T~_ R:_at~fy~ _c~~f_irm And-Adopt Two Indentures Of M~rtgage Relating To A - M~l:~ At Hawke-1s- --- --· - - - - • - •. ---· ·· - --4 -- ... -- - -- ·--- - - - . - . - - - .... - - - ~a-y-; ~~-'!&_Make: -?.-:ro-v-is--=f:on R..~ti:nS.' _ ~t- t~rs- . Connected : 'fl?.e!=~~~ th_ ~ · ~ _ I will nave; to ·mcve ··the adjournment - of the debate on that bill, and call Order 11. Motion, second~reading, a bill, 11

An Act Respecting The Establishment And Operation Of The Polytechnical Institute Of Newfoundland. 11 (Bill No. 14). MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. W. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the Act is being now presented to facilitate the establishment of and the operation of a polytechnical institute for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. And while there is no hurry of course to expedite the operations aspect,it is important and imperative that the Act now be passed and presented 2S1:1

March 16, 1977 Tape 1049 PK - 2 Mr. House: to. guide the construction of the facility, the preliminary design of which has been completed for some months now. I am going to go into a li~~l~ _~it of the history of the planning, and point out what the facility will try to do.

Planning has been going on for about, well just over two years, and it has been done under··the guidance of officials of the Department of Education and an advisory committee involving members from the existing two colleges, the College of Trades and Technology and the College of Fisheries~ In addition to that they have had the resources of their various staff members and of course members of the two existing boards. After the educational specifications had been devised we had schematic plans presented, and of course these were scrutinized by a number of people.

Much tho~ght was given first of all to the building of just a Fishery College, and the reason for that was to place an emphasi~_ on the fishery and to give it perhaps a distinctive Canadian college name. But with much thought it was thought that the existence of two colleges encouraged much duplication in administrative, laboratory, dormority and other central facilities. Consequentially' in the name of efficiency it was decided to as far as possible integrate all the schools, the technical schools in the area,in one institute.

So we did get a firm of consultants specializing in technological institutes and they brought together our educational specifications following these decisions.

March 16, 1977 Tape no. 1050 NM- 1 MR. HOUSE: Now the progress, Mr. Speaker, has been perhaps deliberately slow, first of all to ensure that we were making the correct decision,and to initiate of course the proper procedure with respect to financing the project. The plans at this point are adequate to make now a firm proposal to the federal government and Iiltergoverim1ental Affairs will be proceeding with that forthwith. We have already talked to federal people on this and there has been a lot of encouragement but as yet we have nothing definite because of course we have had no firm proposal to put.

And of course this act will give us that authority to go ahead with the proposal. As members may be aware this is a very costly project and we expect,as I said,federal participation, and the rationale for such is obvious. Manpower training in the technological and trades fields are emphasized as major Canadian concerns today. They are aware of the rapid growing technological development and change. And the fact that through Manpower training the federal government purchases training seats for trades training is evidence of their concerns and their interests.

Also,since the provinces themselves have responsibility for total primary and secondary education,it is logical that there be capital input from the federal government for the actual training of our work force, because~it is quite obvious that it will develop the resources of the whole country. It is my feeling, Mr. Speaker, then that the same principles may apply to this building as applied to the original vocational schools, or as applied to the DREE schools that were built a few years ago in the eight distinct regions that were set aside for infrastructure development.

I make no apology for this,as I think the development of this school mav have more impact than many of the programmes that have been heretofore

March 16, 1977 Tape No. 1050 NM- 2 MR. HOUSE: provided in the stimulation of industry and economic growth. Now the need of this kind of facility was talked about a long time ago,I heard about it long before this administration came into being, but I do not think the need was ever so great as it is at this particular point in time. MR. NEARY: They even picked out the site up on the Ridge Road. MR. HOUSE: Ridge Road. I do not know who picked vut tne site but, it is there an~~ay.

The two existing colleges, that is the Trades College and the Fisheries College~are grossly overtaxed and by Virtue of that their production is somewhat inhibited. Also ,we are more than ever before seeing the need for technological training for the expeditious yielding of our basic resources and especially is this·true of the fishery. We have been hearing:a lot about that lately and I think it was beyond our wildest dreams that we would be expeated to cope so soon with the advanced technology that is going to be required for training our people for the fishery.

So the need is there and,of course,we are hoping to be able to get on with it forthwith. In our way of development in Canada and in the Yolestern ~.J"orld, I guess, education appears to follow the demand not of necessity but because of the many pressing demands we have otherwise that cut into our limited financial resources. But as a result, Mr. Speaker, we do at times get what we call a lag betue2n the technological _ . and the professional demands and our educational wherewithal to meet them.

So I believe that the uncertainties and the pressures in the changing world dictate that phenomenon, particularly in our western society. Now I am not being critical at all of the ?resent technological colleges. We have expanded them, added new programmes. We have right now for instance 400 students housed in the old sanitorium building. They have renovated that and they

March 16, 1977 Tape No . 1050 NN - 3 MR. HOUSE: are carrying on all the paramedical programmes, and pharmacy programmes out there now. So we certainly have not bee n standing still. And I think the institutions have been doing a marvellous job. And I am not going to condemn them in any way. I think they have given us· yeoman service , but they have outgrown their capacity. Now the general idea of a polytechnical institute is in Jne way the completion of facilities to fulfill or round off our post secondary educational offerings. The present system of vocational schools ap?ear at the ~resent time to be fairly adequate for the trades, the one year trades

~farch 16, 1977 Tape 1051 IB-1 YR. HOUSE: and in some cases we have two year trades there. And with additions on these from time to time, I think, we will be able to cope with the demand. Hould the hon. minister allow me? Hhat is the longest term of study in any of the vocational trade schools? The minister s~ys two years. Is there not a longer course than that in some field or other? }'P_. NEAP_Y : Pharmacy. 1-~. SJrALLHOOD: Pharmacy. ~-· HOUSE: Pharmacy is not in the trade schools. Pharmacy is being offered in the trades college, yes.

That is a three year progra~me. l"R • S,..fALL HOOD : No, but in the trade schools. YR. HOUSE: In the trade shcools the longest term at the present time is t"tom years. ~··ost of the trades are one year but there are some that are two. ~P.. . S!'~ALV:.700D : r'!Ould the minister Say Ttlhether there has been; Since they were first established 7 a time ~.;rhen there was a three year term in any subject? I think there was, was there not? ~~. HOUSE: Not to my knowledge. One thing I will mention, I will mention down here further when I come along, something v!e are developing - MR. NEARY: How long is electrical >vork?

Two years? ~11'.. HOtTSE : T~ro years. But there is an apprenticeship programme of course. I cannot think of a three year programme. But there is one starting now I think. ~.Jell I >vas mentioning there, Hr. Speaker, how the vocational schools have developed and there will be changes coming about on that, and I have got another bill to present ,rery soon that ~·7ill show some change in the respective vocational schools, at least starting change.

But as I said v7e have got the vocational schools then for these trades, mainly the one year tradeslbut there are some two years,and I believe there wi.ll be one going into a three year programme perhaps in the next year and I will mention that one a little later.

~A'arch 16, 1977 Tape 1051 IB-2 l~.. ROl:SE : In the university, of course, we have now the capacity to develop very high degrees of proficiency in the professions, in education, in medicine, commerce and so on. The polytechnjcal institute will aim to provide the high degree of proficiency in the higher technologies just as the university does with the professions and the humanities. The thing I 1;orant to mention is the importance of that.

Today - and this is something for one of the trade schools I think coming up now - we must add for in~tance a third year of training to communications technology.As one of the big users, one of the big employers of people ~,rith this kind of a trade, the Department of Transport or the ~linistry of Transport now select candidates from three year programmes and that is an example to show how tren~s are going in these skills. s·a there are going to be a lot of the trades that ~,re have today, t~vo year programrnes,extended to three years in the future. Mr.

Speaker, I have big aspirations for this proposed college which this act is going to set up. And I realize that we are not going to be able to develop a Ryerson College overnight,as an institution of that nature and caliber goes slow and improves with age and experience. But I think we have a good start now in the existing colleges and with the time and development of a better facility we should be capable of developing,first of all, our o~vn manpower needs as well as enable students to qualify themselves to meld into the Canadian mosaic and)of course, for their

part in any part of the Tt!estern world. I believe we cannot just think in terms of preparing people for the Newfoundland work force because in the kind of mobile society we have,we have to think in terms of the pupil or the student and not exactly where he works. That

part cannot be forgotten. The college as described in the act will cater to service needs, the industrial needs,bearing in mind an expanded and improved

}~arch 16 ~ 19 77 Tape 1051 I:S-3 ~. HOFSE: fishery and related industries~ an expanded and improved technology in the mar.ine and anything that relates to oil and gas or hydro development , and it \vill also bring about expansions in our other engineering tech-q.ologies. Now ultimately this is what we plan to set up, one polytechnical institute with 2918

March 16, 1977 MR. HQUSE: Tape no. 1052 Page 1 - mw four colleges in it. The first one will be the Fisheries College, Fisheries, Navigation, Marine Science and Marine Technology and the second one is Pharmacy and ~ara~medical Technology. These two will be embodied in the first phase of the development. The third school within it will be the Business Education and App~ied Arts. And, of course, that takes in a number of courses and trades. And the fourth one will be Vocational Trades and Skilled Handicrafts. The latter is not too well defined but there is a development in that qirection.

The latter, Vocational Trades, will be housed in the present College of Trades and Technology and will comeunder the Polytechnical Institute. MR. SMALLWOOD: Will it continue in the same building? MR. HOUSE: Yes, mainly that will be a vocational school with some second year courses in it. There was some thought given to making that particular building into a vocational school operated by the department the .same as the other seventeen now.

But we thought that that would be a regressive step since we believe that putting these vocational schools under local boards is a move in the right direction and that will be happening, as I say, in some cases or in one case in a bill that I will present in a couple of days. Now the planned facility, Mr. Speaker, is designed to be very flexible, and it is planned that it will accommodate upon completion about 2,500 students. And, of course, that will have living accommodations also embodied there. And that should be in addition to the existing college over here, the College of Trades and Technology.

So we should have a capacity of well over 3,000 pupils. MR. NEARY: that is 5,000. MR. HOUSE: MR. NEARY: With respect to the act itself - If there are 2,500 over here and 2,500 in that, No, there are 500 over there. - only .$500 no~v? ZS19

=March 16, 1977 MR. HOUSE: MR. NEARY: Tape no. 1052 Page 2 - mw Well the original capacity was 750. What is the enrollment right now? MR. HOUSE: The enrollment including the place out on the highway is around 1,500. There are 400 out there, and we are overtaxed over there now at the present time. So you could say 700 to 800. It is possible. But I do not know if we will be able to utilize all that space for vocational education. With respect to the act itself it is not unlike the acts that, of course, are presently governing the other two institutions and that is why I have not dwelt on it too long.

As I mentioned just now the college will have sufficient flexibility to cope with needs as they are projected in the future. And this is one of the main reasons why it is important for us to set it up now so that we can put in place and advisory board who can guide and mo~itor the programmes and the construction as it goes along. Because if it takes a number of years to do and to complete, of course, there will be internal changes, not necessarily structural, but there will have to be some internal planning going on as the facility progresses.

There are two or three things I will mention here about the act itself. The first article,

Article 4 gives, of course, the four colleges which I just read out. And the other one sets up the Board of Governors, and it is noted there down in No. 10 that while this institution may not or will not AN RON. MEMBER: The same as Memorial University. MR. HOUSE: I do not foresee it, and it_may come about because these things have a habit of developing as they go along , that there will be degree programmes of any kind. There is a possibility there for -it -to-b-ecome part of de-greed programmes in conjunction with other facilities, such as Memorial University or any other university" for instance.; in mainland Canada. There is one possibility, for instance, that Memorial

March 16, 1977 Tape no. 1052 Page 3 - mw Mr. House. University is interested in developing a degtee in naval architecture and, of course, that would obviously have to be done in conJunction with the programmes already offered in the present Fisheries College. The yearly btidget; pattern is to be sinlilar to the existing colleges. That is they will get a grant in aid aD.d present it to the minister Who will, of cou:rse, defend it in the House of Asembly. One of the things in administration - the Lieutenant.-Governor-in-Council will appoint··.the presi.deut and the vice-president. It is going to be-rather

~farch 16, 1977 Tape 1053 IB-1 ~ "?. ROUSE: than a general vice-president, we are suggesting a vice-president to head up each of the four schoo!s, and that "torould be something I guess similar to a deanship. Mr. Speaker, there are a number of details about the building in the act which I will be able to answer questions on. But I think that is about imat I should say about it now. I am very happy to present this bill and hope that the building itself can get undenvay as quickly as possible. Thank you very much. }rP-.. SPEAKEP~ : The hon. ·~ember for Burgee-Bay ~'Espoir. ~A"?. • S TI,_'ON S : ~fr.

Speaker, first of all it is good to hear the minister speak on any subject i.n this House. It is fairJy ironic that the subject he speaks on should be this particular one because the minister is a man, 'Vr. Speaker,. whom I have come to associate Hith successful ventures. I have knovm. him as a school principal and school superintendent and nm·r as a minister. He has built for hii!!self) particularly before coming into this House, ~r. ~. a reputation for being identified with successful undertakings. I hope, ~~r.

Speaker, that therefore his being associated with the introduction of th:i.s bill is not nearly as ironic as it ~rould appear to be today. I hope that his good record ~Till fbllmv through on this one. And despite all the omens to the contrary which we have had from government on the polytechnical institute 7 I hope the minister's good batting average will be sufficient to overcome the government's record on things such as the polytechnical institute. I tried earlier today to get some information about the longliner programme. I raise it only as an example, ~fr. Speaker.

I could not help but i·ronder as I heard it this morning whether it Fould go the way of the $40 million trawler programme of four or five year~ ago. As I stand here this afternoon I cannot help but wonder imether the polytechnical institute is another grand announcement, many times made, ivhich will go the vray of the trawler announcement. Or, ~fr. Speaker, is it indeed just a legislat:ive ploy, just a bit of window

Varc!! 16, 1977 Tape 1053 IB-2 Y.R.. S H"}·fONS : dressing to tidy up, to give a rose a new name? To take the college on Parade Street ~,..flich used to be the old campus of Hemorial University, and a place ~.:rhere the hon. minister and I first made each others acquaintance, to take that college which is now the College of Fisheries, etc. and change it into the College of Fisheries, etc. under the polytechnical institute, is that what ~.re are up to here this afternoon?

Is it to take the College of Trades, etc. down the road here, to call it by a new· name, the College of Vocational Trades and Skilled Handicrafts under a polytechnical institute? Now, ~- fr. Speaker, if yJe are engaged in that kind of a semantic exercise I v10uld suggest that the minister has come here under extreme coercion this afternoon, he has been forced to pull this stunt because,knC'wing him as I do he would not do it freely, he would not engage in this bit of childish semantics freely. I have a fear, Mr. Speaker, particularly when I look at the very last

section of this act, normally a fairly innocuous section, that in this case there may be a real message in it.

Section 29 says this act shall come into force on a elate to be proclaimed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. 2923 .·

March 16, 1977 Tape 1054 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons : now legislation drafters will say, there is nothing particularly unique about that, Mr. Speaker. Of course, there is not. Of course there is not until you look at the other legislation before us in this House about which we have discussed or talked in the last few days, and you will find that most of the legislation has no coming into force clause, which means of course that once it goes through these proper procedures in this House it will automatically)as a matter of course,come into force.

And that is the way you will find mos·t legislation is handled with two exceptions.

The kind of exceptions that I have mentioned here in the Act, and the kind of exception that you will find in, for example, Bill No. 25 which relates to the agreement on the Burgee Fish Plant. ~nd in that particular one, just as an example, in that particular one the clause says that "This A~t shall be deemed to have come into force on the 30th. day of March, 1976." In the majority of cases the Bill-would - -beco~e - lcn.;r ~t -- ~~~h - time as it had gone through its normal procedures in the House and so ··on, and had been signed by the Lieutenant-Governor and so on, with two exceptions; the e:X:c_eption were you will want retroactivity 1 such as the case of the Burgeo Fish Bill I just made reference to, Bill No. 25, and, Mr.

Speaker, the case where you are not sure,or you have not made a decision>or you do not want the decision to become known as to when you intend to launch the project. Now if one listened to the minister, one would get the impression that the sod was going to be turned tomorrow. One would get the impression that it is full sp-eed ahead-, -gun -g h-o ,- he cannot wait to get out of here so he can , go down and use his shovel. And the fact is, Mr.

Speaker, if that were the case the minister would not need that last 'clause in there because he would be anxious to get this Bill through the House so he could proceed with the mechanics of the Bill immediately and get the Board of Directors set up and _ &et.~he president appointed and get the vice- - -- --- ~ - presidents~esignated. _ so he could move into high gear with his pet

March 16, 1977 Tape 1054 PK - 2 M~ • Simmons : project as quickly as possible. The fact of the matter is that we may now be on the beginning of an exercise, legislativel y ; an exercise which will terminate the same way that another legislative exercise terminated last night. After having a bill on the Order Paper for a number of years, the Minister of Justice comes in and says "Look this is just cluttering up the Order Paper. It has never been proclaimed into law, so we now suggest you repeal it and get it off the books." I have deliberately, 1'-fr.

Speaker, given the dim view, the pessimistic view of things at first, but I submit, Mr. Speaker, the realistic view of things given the record of this government to follow through on its commitments of substance in various Throne Speeches since 1972. I need not remind hon. members, Mr. Speaker, that we have heard this expression polytechnical institute somewhere else before. It seems to me we heard it in one or two or three Throne Speeches before. I hope,Mr. Speaker, this is the beginning to be a little more optimistic, I hope this is the begi~ning, Mr.

Speaker, of a polytechnical institute, I hope this is the real foundation for that institute~ I sincerely hope so. But we have got to hear more from the minister about the cost of the institute: How far along the plans are. The design. Who the architects are. Have they been engagedi Has the preliminary design work been done? Has it been partly done? TNhat is the completion date for the finished drawings? Hhen will the appropriate department call tenders on the project?

Does the government intend to do this by the conventional general contractor I approach, or will they get involved in another project management scheme' I hope, if so, it will be much unlike the scheme they got themselves into on the Health Sciences Complex. MR. SMALLWOOD: Is there any proposal to erect a new building? MR. SIMMONS: The former Premier, the member from Twillingate (Mr. Saallwood}mentions is there any proposal to erect a new building?

March 16, 1977 Tape 1054 PK - 3 Mr. Simmons: Well one wanders, one wonders. The ministry gave the impression that a building is in the offing and that _is why I raised the questions I have. The Act would certainly imply

~arch 16, 1977 Tape No. 1055 NM- 1 MR. SIMMONS: implied there is going to be a building because the

section 6 (2)_ (

a) says, "The right of managment and control of the property referred to in sub-section (1)," of course there is no property in sub-section (1) unless you assume that there is going to be some actual construction to provide such property. And the minister)I believe,in his comments earlier indicated as much and he has)since I have been talking, he has indicated with a nod or two that this is indeed the case.

So that is ~Thy I raised the questions about when the drawings will be completed, when the actual construction will begin, when the tenders will be called, what is the anticipated completion date of that building _ ?A lot of questions that the minister unfortunately did not give any answers to in his opening remarks, • M~nisters often have a tendency to keep all the goodies until they close debate but I would suggest·to the minister,and to other ministers~that this procedure does not necessarily make for a very helpful debate because the minister has to sit there and listen to many of the questions that he knows the answers to and to which he could have given us the answers at the outset.

And it would make for a much gentler discussion and perhaps a more productive discussion had he given some of the answers, which he obviously knows,in-opening the debate instead of waiting until he closes debate on the second reading. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the bill in setting forth the four colleges addresses itself to a need, alludes to a very real set of needs that we have in this Province, a category of needs for expanded opportunities in post-secondary education other than those which are normally thought of as univeristy courses, other than those ooportunities which are available through a liberal arts,or a degree granting insitution in liberal arts and science and the professions. And this bill, and pa rticularly

section 4 (1) of it, makes reference to that category of needs, the needs of the young adult Newfoundlander

March 16, 1977 Tape No. 1055 NM - 2 MR.. S H1MONS : for access to opportunities at the post-secondary level, but at the same time not necessarily at the university level. Opportunities in fisheries and the related sciences in engineering. Opportunities in pharmacy, the para-medical technology in business ed., in applied arts, in vccational trades and in handicrafts, skills related to handicrafting. These constitute a set of opportunities or a set of skills fer which there have been inadequate opportunities in this Province. Now we have been improving.

We have more vocational schools now than we did)say) twenty years ago. We have more opportunites because of the regional college at Corner Brook,to a degree, the community college concept which is develo!'ing quite admirably in the Bay St. George area • . There are more opportunities at the post-secondary level than ever before. And this bill if follm.red through to its logical conclusions, if implemented, if enacted into law, if the buildings are put in place, if their funding is made availa~le - and notice, Mr.

Speaker, the number of ifs that I have had to use to make the point, Because . we still do not know,four or five years after the initial announcement, we still do not know what the plan is, and I am hoping that the minister in closing debate on this will give us some indication of what the plan is. But if the message in this legislation is carried through it will be a glad day for the average young adult in this Province who is looking for O?portunities to educat~ himself in various disciplines other than the conventional university disciplines. Mr.

Speaker, before concluding __ I would just like to make reference to another concern I have when it comes to post~ secondary education. I was in Labrador City, in Wabush. sometime in November, and one of the matters that ~vas mentioned to me at that time was the lack of educational opportunities

~farch 16, 1977 Tape 1056 IE-1 !om. SI~~ONS : relating to mining technology in this Province. The entire economy of Labrador City-'Habush, of course, is based on mining and just about anybody who elects to ~·mrk in that area, any of the young people ~,mo go through high school and elect to work in the Lab City-t.rabush area are really electing to work in the mining business in so~e phase, some aspect of ~ining. But they have so little opportunity to become skilled in the various disciplines related to mining.

Indee~ in Labrador itself there is just the vocational school at Goose Bay,and if you look at its particular curriculum, its set of courses and prograrnm~s, it almost gives no indication that mining is a part of the Labrador scene. tThat I have said is not particularly critical of Labrador or C-oose Bay. If you take any vocational school in this Province r,.rith a fer,.r exceptions - one of the happy exceptions for instance is Gander 1 where the Gander vocational school gets into courses related to aircraft maintenance for example, I understand.

That is a happy exam?le of What shoulc be happening in all the vocational school and all the post-secondary institutions in this Province. The courses of study, the programmes, ought to be related to the native needs, to the needs of the hinterland, the surrounding area, a lot more than they are at present. I have used the example of Labrador City. I could be using examples relating to almost any part of this Province. Take our mania for turning out mechanics in this Province. I suppose, ~r.

Speaker, almost every graduate of a high school in Newfoundland and LabraC.or, ~v-ho has not gone directly on to university or to some particular course immediatelyland Hho has been unemployed for any period of time, has either enrolled in a mechanics course or been offered a seat in a mechanics course. _RRE~UER MOOP.ES: Or welding. ¥J'. STI~ONS: Or ~'eln ing, yes·. The Premier reminds me even more popular is the course of welding. I had an occasion to talk to a former student of ~ine from Springdale a few ~veeks ago and I asked him 2929

~·arch 16, 1977 Tape 1056 IB-2 ~1R.. STI-~!ONS: what he was doing. Well he was going to vocational school. And I asked him \<7ha t he was taking. liT ell he said, 11 Th is year I am taking carpentry .•• The answer prompted me to say, 11\.Jell does that mean you took something last year? 11 1 'Yes 11 , he said, "I took ~relding. 1 ' I said, 11 Did you not take a course in photography one time? 11 Of course he had. He had a course in photography, a course in welding and a course in carpentry. MP. S~~LWOOD: A well rounded student. PR.

SH~ONS: A well ro.unded student, or perhaps more correctly, a rather aggressive unemployed person who has found a way to keep body and soul together while he is getting some employment. That is another aspect of the situation in which most post-secondary students find themselves today.

I understand that the statistics from Statistics Canada yesterday about unemployment indicate that the majority of the unemployed people across Canada are under twenty­ five years of age which points up the particular need to have the intelligence to have information available to those post-secondary institutions so that we can relate the course outlines,or the course requirements)or the course of study in those institutions to what is the need in society. I would be an interesting study, :Vr.

Speaker, if someone had the time and money to do it? to see to v1hat degree T..,re are wasting or properly utilizing our education dollar at the post-secondary level, utilizing it in the sense that we are preparing the student to get into a productive job opportunity. And as the Premier says, welding is the dramatic example. But I would think there are a lot of fellows sitting around who have carpenters trades or mechanics trades- gas mechanic, diesel mechanic- a lot of these who have not been plugged into industry, maybe in part because of the ease of getting into some particular programmes.

I have called on behalf of students to the Z930

March 16, 1977 Tape no. 1057 Page 1- ms Mr. Simmons. principals of vocational schools and some fellow is enauirin~ about some course relating to electrical. And there is another interesting one,my own area has some job opportunities in the electrical discipline. And how many times have I had the school principal or the person at the school say, "Well, no, we got neither seat in electrical but would he be interested in caprentry or would he be interested in welding? 11 And somehow I do not blame the principal.

He is allocating the dollars according to the rules, I suppose, according to the various federal and provincial programmes. My comments at this point should not be taken as criticism of any particular individual 6t programme or department of government, except the criticism of our overall failure to articulate the post-secondary need on the one hand and plug it into post-secondary opportunities on the other.

And I would hope that now with a provision for a great new polytechnical institute we would give renewed attention to the problem that I have just cited, the problem of providing, offering courses of study which meet particular employment needs. And, of course, Mr. Speaker, serving the employment requirement of the adult is only part of the function of any polytechnical institute, any college of applied arts. I am not suggesting it is the total function. I would not want someone to take that one out of context. I just zeroed in on this particular aspect of the need which needs to be filled.

This kind of college will have to fill a number of other social needs and economic needs and I suppose psychological needs to some degree. It will have to serve some avocational needs as well, the needs of people who are looking for hobbies and avocations in their spare time.

These are subiects that one could talk about for some time, )ut I want, in particular,to draw the attention to the abysmal failure which has been ours as a oeople here in this Province, to probably articulate the link which must exist between the young student coming out of high school and his place in industry and in society as a productive,

March 16, 1977 Tape no. 1057 Page 2 - mw Mr. Simmons. as a working, as an employed person. A good part of our unemployment, you know, can be blamed on government or it can be blamed on a lack of industrial opportunities or it can be blamed on the times or the quasi recession we find ourselves in or the tight money. We can blame it on so many things. But I would submit, Mr.

Speaker, that a hefty_ proportion of that 15.1 per cent of unemployed people in this Province today, a hefty percentage, a sizeable chunk, are unemployed toda~ not because they do not have skills for a job which is vacant somewherelor not because they do not have skills or not because there are not vacancies, but because the skills the welder has or the carpenter has or the mechanic has or the hairdresser has are not the group of skills that would qualify him or her for their particular job vacancy.

It was only a year or two ago that we found that the Iron Ore Company of Canada was bringing in a sizeable number of workers from Portugal, skilled workers. While you can blame them in terms of our national interest, you cannot blame a company if it cannot find the skills in Canada,or in Newfoundland and Labrador in this case, for looking elsewhere to acquire people who have those skills.

And perhaps that example, the example of the Portuguese that I have just mentioned in Labrador City, brings home the point that we have jobs in this Province which are going begging because nobody has ever articulated to the vocational schools and to the framers of programmes in Manpower,federally,and in Manpower,provincially,and the Department of Social Services, provincially, those job creation programmes.

Nobody has ever properly articulated to these people who frame the programmes, who decide the allocation of the money, and to the people in schools who draw up curriculum 1 nobody has adequately articulated to them what the nature of the need is, what skills are

March 16, 1977 Tape no. 1057 Page 3 - mw Mr . Simmons. required in those jobs which are vacant or which are likely to be vacant. Mr. Speaker, I opened on a fairly pessimistic note. I did so deliberately because I am a little concerned about where all this will end. I hope it will end in a polytechnical insitute which will provide the kinds of opportunities I have talked about and the minister has talked about.

March 16, 1977 Tape No. 1058 NH - 1 ~. S~~NS: regret that he was so sparing in his information at the beginning but knowing the minister as I do I believe we can anticipate that he will be a little more forthcoming when he closes debate on the bill in second reading. If not, of course)we shall have a full oppcrtunity to raise a number of questions and. make other points during committee stage. Thank you. MR.. SPEAKER (MR.. YOUNG) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I ~.;ould like to say a few very brief words on this particular bill because I think it is of major importance to the Province.

I think it is one of the most major steps that can be taken at this point in our educational history, or in the history of our Province for that matter. The polytechnical idea of course is not new, it was suggested by the bon. member for , Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) when he was Premier many years ago. The concept of a polytechnical institute is something that was desirable but I think in those days, as in the days when ~ve took office and until now, it has been a matter of a very large expenditure of rroney towards what is really a new type of institution for this Province.

The fact is that we have reached the stage now where we feel that the educational process in our Province needs assistance in the direction that a polytechnical institute would give. I agree with the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) when he makes the comment of people going into vocational schools 1ust to get income)if you like,or another course. But I think what has to be realized at the same time, Mr. Speaker, is that for many years the whole emphasis on education in this Province was first of all grade eleven, then after that a univeristy education, and then,even with the beginning of the ~.

March 16, 1977 Tape No. 1058 NM- 2 PRm1IER MOORES: vocational schools and for quite some years, I would suggest that there was a certain stigma attached to vocational education as such because that is the place you went if you could not go to university. But it was never the place you went by first choice in the main. Well the fact is that is now changed and I think it is a very good thing that it has.

I . know in the case of two of my own children they went to Trades School rather than to university• I am not at all opposed to whatever ·; vocation a child wants that they should have the opportunity to take that sort of education. The idea behind the polytechnical school at this time, Sir, is really to develop excellence in those industries which we have neglected.

In other words,to set up training I programmes in the various institutions we have that are applicable to the resources and the potential we have for the future and not, as the speaker just before me and as I said across the floor, not just to train people in set courses like welding and carpentry and pipe fitting and all the other things that they go into just for the sake of getting a course. I think now what we have got to do is take our institutions and to place a much greater emphasis in developing people in the skills that are going to be required for the resources that we have to develop.

That is why, Sir, I would suggest that the first phase of the polytechnical institute is so critical and that is really a fisheries training stage. Now the mention has been I!12de;would the fisheries training programme for the polytech be the same as at the Fisheries College now and the answer is,obviously of course) very much no. With the 200 mile limit coming into effect last January I would suggest, Sir, that not only is the need much greater now for education in the matters pertaining to the fishery, but also the opportunity once that need and the education is completed , the opportunity is so much greaters.

Because today we are looking at the ootentt~1 nF a development of the inshore fishery which is>! suppose 1 unique and with

}f..arch 16, 1977 Tape No. 1058 N?~ - 3 PREMIER MOORES: proper conservation measures will allow inshore fishermen to do better, much better ., than ever before. But in order to do much ~. etter they will have to make radical changes themselves in that the boa4 to go and haul the codtrap will no longer be enough in the future. And I think that some of the more successful inshore fishermen in the Province have found they have to have diversification and go where the fish is, whether it is the Port au Choix fishermen fishing for shrimp and scallops or ground fish or whether it is the Port de Grave fishemen fishing for herring or turbot or cod or whatever the case may be. 2936

Narch 16,19 77 Tape 1059 AH-1 PREMIER HOORES : There has to be diversification there . .. has to be ..;.rith diversification of course,a great deal of knowledge obtained. The one thing that we should not forget when we talk about the fisher y as such - I do not mean to make this a fisheries speech here - but the one thing 1.Je must never forget is that the inshore fishermen is the best - - return for capital investment of · any of the different typ~s -~ f _fish~;tg_. But no_ matter how soiJhisticated HR. S}'IALLHOOD: Or almost anything else. P.REMIER ~- -1'00RES : Or almost anything else - that is right. Mr.

Speaker, also with the 200 mile limit coming into play we have by definition) another role to play, and that is the role that has to be played in the offshore fishery to the East and to the north Hhere we have never made any meaningful role previously as a fishing Province. The skills and the technology that are going to be required at sea are such that it is going to take ~ very educated man to be the skipper of some of these major fishing vessels that will be needed in time.

As a matter of fact the captain of one of the European ships that was in just a· few days ago was twenty-six years old, wi~h his Ph.D in ocean bio:t,ogy. and his income last year was just in excess of $100,000. M'R. ~T'MMO~T~ • Ph.D? PREMIER HOORES: Ph.D, Yes. But the amazing thing is that here is this opportunity to be taken,availed of, and I suggest our people will have and must have that same opportunity to do t~e same thing. But equally, Mr.

Speaker, when you start talking about the volumes of fish that can be landed from the offshore and the inshore resource you are also at the same time talking about a great deal of technology development in the field of pr~cessing~ Because it also has to happen that the fish products 'tve have in this Province~ whether it be herring, or whether it be

Harch 16,1977 Tape 1059 AH-2 'PREMIF:R ~ ~OORES : codfish or whatever, must in time be reprocessed into the final consumer pack. That means people would be experts in t~1e factories ,r,muldknmv cooking ·and marinating and ~pices and _all the rest of the stuff that goes tvith it, and also in productivity. So just in these very few remarks, Sir, I am just saying that the need with the 200 mile limit- if we are going to take full advantage of it for our mvn people, '"e must train them so that they can do the job.

Because even with the 200 mile limit a~d even with what will almost be a captive market in the EEC-· because they have nowhere else to buy their product Hith their own supplies dried up as the quot~s are reduced -:-even ~..rith a captive market, so to speak, a ne'tv market, even vTith the 200 mile limit we still are going to have to compete ,.,ith all the other countries in the world that produce other species and that is going to take pro~~ctivity and efficiency.

So that is why , Sir, we feel so strongly that even at this time of restraint, even at this time of cutting back on capital and current expenditures that this is one area where we cannot afford to be still. This is one area where we cannot possibly afford not to train our people at a time when training is going to be of the essence. And that is why the polytech will be starting this year and why unfortunately it is going to take three years to complete the first phase and that is even going all out. But that is why we feel it is so essential that it is started this year, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER: Han. member for Trinity Bay De Verde. J-IR. ROWE: I regret that I was not here when the Minister of Education introduced the bill. I did hear a part of my colleague's speech, from Burgee Bay D'Espoir,and I could only gather from that that the tlinister had precious little to say over and above what is contained in this piece of legislation

~ tar c h 16,19 77 Tape 1059 AH-3 MR. ROYlE: here,at the present time. I had expected that when the Premier spoke , Sir, that he would add a great deal more information respecting this bill to establish a_p~lyteclm:i:_c::~l __ ii!s_titute in Newfoundland. But , Sir, a polvte~hni ~.::.1 inRt'i httP- was a dream and a concept of the previous administration led by the present member for Twillingate • In fact. that concept-and the promise was made in the dying years or months of that particular administration,

March 16, 1977, Tape 1060, Page 1 -- apb MR. F. ROWE: and . the present administration continued on with the p~omise_ of establishing a polytechnical institute in this Province right up until, in fact, the Throne Speech of 1975. In fact I have a question on the Order Paper, 68, asking what progress is being made on the building of a new technical institute and residences as stated in the 1975 Throne Speech?

So, Sir, when I see this particular piece of legislation here I am deeply disappointed, very, very disappointed. -Because there is nothing in this bill which indicates the actual physical building of a polytechnical institute.- I do not necessarily mean a single building but the actual physical additions to any existing structures for a polytechnical institute - nor did the Premier indicate in his speech - he did indicate, of course, the curriculum will not be the same because of the 200 mile limit and this sort of thing - but there is no indication given of what additional courses will be added or what additional staff or faculty would be added, or administration)or what additional physical departments or parts of the building will be added to the college now.

Because the Fisheries College or the College of Fisheries.or whatever- The Marine Engineering and Electronics established by the College of Fisheries or whatever - The College of Fisheries Navigation Marine Engineering and Electronics, that is simply being changed to just a college of the polytechnical institute.

Sir, after hearing all the promises of a polytechnical institute for this Province, what I can see before us here today is simply taking two existing educational institutions, the College of Trades and Technology and making that into a college of the polytechnical institute and taking the College of Fisheries Navigation Marine Engineering and Electronics and changing its name and making it into a second college of the polytechnical institute. There is no indication of when and where we will have the other two colleges, the one for pharmacy and p~r~~~dic~l technoiogy-and the one - fo~ b~siness educati~n or

March 16, 1977, Tape 1060, Page 2 -- apb MR. F. ROWE: applied arts. There has been no indication unless the minister indicated it and I apologize, if he did indicate it in his speech, for not being in my seat at that particular time. But what I can see here, Sir, is simply this; is that they have taken,the present adminstration has taken two institutions, changed the names of them - AN HON. MEMBER: You did not hear - MR. ROWE: I also heard the reply of my colleague from Burgeo-Bay.d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) which indicated to me that the minister in his speech did not give any information, there were an awful lot of ifs. Everybody would agree, Mr. Speaker, that this piece of legislation, the concept is excellent, it is absolutely excellent, but when and where? And there were a number of ifs that were raised by my colleague - when and where?

Because so far all we have is a change in a name, an amalgamation - well it is not actually an amalgamation because there are two separate colleges, but we just have the changing of names of two educational institutions at the post-secondary level and they are being converted into two colleges under the broad name of the polytechnical institute. And 6(2)(a)(

b) and (c), Sir, of the bill indicated that is all we are going to have for some time. That is all we are going to have for some time, these two institutions. And I would like to hear a little more elaboration on what,in fact,is going to happen at the College of Fisheries. What is going to happen in the terms of additional staff? Specifically what is going to happen in terms of new courses of instruction? And what new materials, apparatus,

March 16, 1977 Tape 1061 PK- 1 Mr. F. Rowe: classrooms, divisions, labs, etc., will be added to that College of Fisheries because the Premier has admitted that the philosoph~ or the curricular philosophy of that institution-has to change because of the 200 mile limit, therefore the whole concept philosophically and physically has to change in that college as well and there has been no indication from the Premier, to my knowledge, no indication from the Minister of Education if there is going to be any great change in that direction.

So ·, Sir, I am disappointed in that respect, deeply disappointed that we just got a changing of names. As a matter of fact it was my understanding, Sir, that when the polytechnical institute was to be built in this area, the ~t. John's area, and I think a few of my colleagues have a few comments as to where the I polytechnical institute was to be built in the first place, and I will let them deal with that particular matter, actually where it was going to be built. But it was my understanding if the polytechnical institute was to be built in St.

John's it would be a polytechnical . . . institute to start off with and the Colleges of Trades and Technolocrv would be converted into the equivalent of a vocational school for this particular araa. That subject has been mentioned many times publicly and in this House, that once the polytechnical institute is established that the present;·college of Trades and Technology would be converted into the equi~alent of a vocational school to take care of,obviously,the huge population in this particular area. Because over a fifth, well about a fifth of the population of all Newfoundland and Labrador is in the St.

John's Metropolian area, so obviously there is a need for such a large, large building. Sir, another thing in speaking in second reading in this particular Bill, that I would like to refer to is Clause (12) -~-'Without the prior written · consent of the Minister of Justice no action may be brought against any member of the board for anything done or omitted by him in the execution of his duties as a member." Sir, that

March 16, 1977 Tape 1061 PK - 2 Mr. Rowe: is something we took great issue with, with respect to an amendment to the Memorial University Act. And I do not think that clause belongs in there at all, at least in the present way it is written here in the Bill that I am referring to. Because I think, you know, we talk about academic freedom. We got into a little bit of debate about that at one time. But this is just overprot~ction for any member of the board. Ove~rote ~ tion. AN RON. MEMBER: That has been approved. MR. ROWE: And it has been approved I know but not without some hot debate in this Assembly, Sir.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROWE: There was some considerable debate .in the House of Assembly. AN RON. MEMBER: What was that? MR. ROWE: It was with respect to the principle contained in Clause 12 of the Bill we are looking at now, Bill No. 14. I am . t~~~ - s-aying it is overprotection and I will leave it at that because there has been some considerable debate on it. Another thing that I would like to refer to, Mr. Speaker, is - .I know this could be dealt with clause by clause in the Committee, but I will deal with it now in second reading - that is Clause 21 (1).

"The Auditor General shall audit the accounts of the Board and has · at . all~- times authority to call for and shall be supplied by the Board with all books and vouchers which he deems necessary for his audit." Well, Sir, I feel very strongly that the same principle that we have argued for in this Assembly for the University)with respect to its budget,should also hold true for the polytechnical institute.

By and large the polytechnical institute - and I hesitate to use the word "polytechnical institute" because I physically cannot envisage at this present moment a polytechnical institute, I just see two institutions changing names. That is all this Act means so far. Now if things happen rapidly and we get the ~ additional colleges, that is a different story. If the philosophy and the curriculum of the

r'arch 16, 1977 Tape 1062 IB-1 MR. ROHE: two present institutions have changed drastically to suit the needs of the ~ewfoundland students. There is nothing wrong with this act, But there is no indication that is going to happen. But getting back to the point that I was trying to make1 Anv institution that is by and large paid for by the taxpayers money;whether it be federal money or provincial moneyl the fact is it still comes out of the pockets of the people. I feel very strongly that the budget of such an institution should be given the same scrutiny as any department of government.

Now we had a couple of years ago when ~.<r. Speaker was ~!inister of Education - Yr. Speaker when he was Yinister of Education- did bring in a list of so called estimates for ~·e:r.orial rniversity. All it was ~1as a faculty breakdown and a departmental breakdown at the most. It was not even a rlivision breakdown. Salaries, so much, the faculty of this, so much, the - department of this, so much, but no detailed breakdown as you would find in the estimates of any department of government.

I feel very strongly that the budget of the polytechnical institute should be subjected to the same scrutiny as any department of government. In other words, it should be brought in with the Budget Speech and with the estimates with its proper heads, subheads, etc. Because we are supposedly a spokesman for the taxpayers of this Province, and we can only ask the correct and proper questions and raise things that we think are wrong if ~,re have the actual detailed expenditures in front of us.

Without these rletailed •expenditures in front of us we cannot do that service to the people who are paying for the two colleges of the ~olytechnical institute. Now, Sir, one other thing that I would like to relate to is this -·and my colleague for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) mentioned it and went into it in some detail - but I would like to re-emphasize it because I think it is very important. I have had so many of my constituents who have graduated 1 not only from the university but from

~~arch 16, 1977 Tape 1062 IB-2 yp_. P.OvlE : vocational schools, not so much from the Fisheries College, but from the various vocational schools looking desperately for jobs and they just cannot find them in spite of the fact that people, skilled people are being imported into this Province to do certain types of work.

I think that the govermnent in conjunction vith the polytechnical institute,or the colleges of the polytechnical institute> should do a detailed survey of the job requirements in this Province and the potential job requirements in this Province~ and then offer courses that vrill meet th-ese requirements. I will just give you an example. I know one example does not prove a generalization but this is a typical example. A chap came out of a vocational school, the College of Trades and Technology as it happens, with this eighteen month course in ~-ray technology.

He was told by his instructor that there was no problem in the world in getting a job when he got out. He graduated there some time ago and he has yet to find a job as an X-ray technician in any part of this Province. And he has informed me - and I can only go by his word - this individual has informed me that representation was made by the College of Trades and Technology to either the ~inister of Education or the ~inister of Health to scrap that course, ZS45

March 16, 1977 Tape No. 1063 NM-1 MR. ROWE: to cut out that course, that eighteen month cours.e on x-ray technology because we have an oversupply of x-ray technicians. And for sane reason the administration, I apologize for not being able to identify which minister the representation was made to but it was made to either the Minister of Education or the Minister of Health. Sneaking from memory I believe it was the Minister of Health.

They could probably confirm it, one of the ministers could confirm it, but representation was made to one of these two ministers to scrap that course in x-ray technology because we were flooding the market with it in Newfoundland. That is just one example and I could list off man~many others.

Therefore, I re-emnhasize and state once again that before any course offerings - well obviously there are course offerings ongoing now, but in the restructuring of the College of-Fisheries, one of the colleges of thepolytechnical institute and in presumably the restructuring of the College of Vocational Trades and skilled handicrafts -is that what it is going to be called?

No, I am sorry, it is going to be called the College of Trades and Technology is it, still under the polytechnical institute? - in the restructuring of the courses a,nd the curriculum offerings in these two colleges of the polytechnical institute that the government undertake,in conjunction with these two colleges a massive and detailed study, really detailed and very scientific, get some people who are very skilled in doing such surveys.

Heavens knows with the reduction in the univeristy enrollment at the present time there must be a few professors who are skilled in conducting surveys and collating data and analyzing data in order to come up with some indication of the job requirements in this Province, identifying the areas where we do not need any more

March 16, 1977 Tape No. 1063 NM- 2 MR. ROWE: people trained. I think a typical example is beauty technicians, or whatever the proper term is for them. MR. HICKMAN: Beauty culture. AN HON. MEMBER: Beauticians. ~. ROWE: Beauticians, whatever the course is that there are a tremendous number of people applying for this course now and thev are virtually being turned away and so they should.

I mean one has to ask the question when do you stop a person taking something that he or she wishes to take in terms of educationt If a person wants to take a certain course, say an x-ray technician, what right has an institution or the government to say, ''No, I am sorry.

You cannot take that course." '~fuy?" "Because the jobs are not available in Newfoundland." Well he can go elsewhere, but I think it is incumbent upon that institution and the gover~ent to ensure that an individual student going to any one of these colleges is aware of this fact that if I take course "a" my chances of getting a job are on a scale of one to five say, or one to ten, going from a one hundred per cent chance of getting a job to nil per cent, zero per cent in getting a job.

I think the student should know that and the only way that this can be done is obviously,for such a detailed survey to be carried out then by the institutions, the colleges of the polvtechnical institute to trv to offer courses in .<~C"'.r. n,-rl;:~-nt"o:> ~vitr the needs in this Province preferabl~ And if any courses are being offered where the chances of gaining employment once you graduate from that course are very slim, I think this should be made abundantly clear to the students. So, Sir, I will conclude my remarks by simply stating that the bill in itself, its concept is good. The concept is good.

March 16, 1977 Tape no. 1064 Page 1 - mw Mr. Rowe. But I am bitterly, bitterly disappointed in that the bill says nothing as far as real action is concerned. It is like a pol.icy statement. It is like a promise made during an election campaign except that it has been drafted by the legal draftsmen. MR. LUSH: That is what it is, a promise . all over the Island. MR. ROWE: It has always been a promise. But all it is doing is changing the name of two existing institutions, and I have heard nothing yet in this Assembly, Mr.

Speaker, to indicate to me that we are in fact going to have a polytechnical institute except way down the road. Let us call a spade a spade. If the Province cannot afford it - there are certain factors we have got to consider. There are certain priorities in this Province. We are not going to start sticking up dental schools or business schools or polytechnical institutes if we do not have enough hospital beds in the Province or people beating their way over dirt roads or if they do not have a decent drop of water to drink. There are obviously certain priorities.

But let us not be conned into thinking that this bill repr~sents a great new polytechnical institute. It is just a little small beginning. That is the first point I made. The second point was the objections to Clause 12; And the third point in conclusion was the fact that I think the budget of the polytechnical institute should be brought down with the estimates in this House of Assembly the same way as the university's budget should be brought down, so that we can ask intelligent questions, so that we know how the money is being spent. If it were a private institution, none of our business.

But the university and the college: - or of the polytechnical institute are being paid for by the people of this Province, and people outside

f#arch 16, 1977 Tape no. 1064 Page 2 - mw Mr. Rowe. of the Province, because some federal money obviously is going into these institutions. And the fourth point that I alluded to was the fact that let us have the courses of study at these institutions arranged in such a way that they will best serve the interests of this Province. And there are typical examples. The Premier mentioned some of them. You know, with the coming of the 200 mile limit obviously there will haye to be a whole new change in philosophy at the College of Trades and Technology.

The possibility of minerals and oil and gas off the coast could have an influence on the type of training going on in the College of Trades and Technology. But let us try to identify where we have an over-supply of certain skilled people. And I am not necessarily saying that you are not allowed to take that course. MR. HOUSE: What are you saying? MR. ROWE: I have been around a little while, and I am not going to be trapped into trying to say anything in particular that the minister can nail me on, because there is such a thing as academic freedom, and freedom of choice in an institution.

What I am saying is that it is a pity, it is a darn pity, it is a crime, and it is a sin to get letters day after day and phone calls day after day from students who have spent eighteen months or two years or three years taking a course of study, being told by the instructor -obviously because the instructor wants to keep the course going, if I were the instructor I would want to keep it going. I would want to lose my job - so I would tell that student, "No problem at all. X-ray technicians~ bl all ••• no pro em at And the X-ray technician comes out and after six months he is still looking for a job.

And I think that is a crime. But I am not saying what the minister is trying to get me to say, that we are not allowed to take these courses, we are not going 2949

lurch 16, 1977 Tape no. 1064 Page 3 - ms Mr. Rowe. to put these courses in, you are not allowed to do this, and you are not allowed to do that. Ali I am saying is that_the onus is upon the _institution involved and the government, I think, has to have some control over these universities. And when you start talking about that, you are going to be accused of interfering with academic freedom and all this sort of a thing. I know what academic freedom is. And when an institution is being funded by

"arch 16, 1977 Tape 1065 IB-1 }!p_. ROHE : both the federal and the provincial government. I firmly believe that the federal and the provincial government should have some say as to what goes on in these institutions. I do not mean total and complete control, but they should have some say as to the c'.irection of study in these institutions because it is the taxpayers 1 money and we are funding it and we are the spokesmen of the taxpayers. Now I should not say the government, I should say the Rouse of Assembly should have some say as to the direction and the philosophy and the course offerings.

That -has nothing to do ~<lith aca.demic freedom. Now I think I have made my point, Sir. In closing,I would simply apologize to the minister if I have sai0 anything in ignorance because of the fact that I ~..ras not here w7hen he introduced the bill. But I did listen very, very carefully to my co l league in response to the minister .which gave me every indication that not very much was said over and above what was contained in this piece of legislation before us.

And I did listen very carefully to the hon. the Premier and he talked about the 200-mile limit and the need for changing the philosophy of the College of Fisheries. But he did not say in wnat ~~y,or what additional staff would be required,or what additional money would be needed to be pumped into that institution. So it is a good concept, Sir, but I would like to see the action and then I will be really pleased. Thank you. Sm."E RON. }4E~"BERS: Rear, hear! Y1' • SPEAKER: The hon. me~ber for LaPoile. !'"P.. NEAPY : }~r.

Speaker, I just want ~o have a few 1•rords in support of this bill and in support of the concept as outlined by the minister in introducing this very fine piece of legislation. As I see it, ~Kr. Speaker, the minister is doing t"~ things. The minister is going to consolidate the College of Fisheries and the rollege of Trades and Technology. Now that is something that I personally have advocated for a long time and spoke, as a matter of fact, several times in this House about merging, integrating, the College of Fisheries an~ the College of Trades and Technology. I think it is an excellent move, ~fr, Speaker, 2951.

~'arch 16, 1977 Tape 1065 I13-2 }fJ'. • NEARY : because as it stands nm.r you have duplication of services. Not only do you have duplication of services, Sir, but you have courses / being run at the College of Fisheries that are also being run, maybe not ic!entical, maybe not one hundred per cent, but courses being run at the College of Fisheries; similar courses being run at the College of Trades and Technology. For instance in food technology you have two courses being run, one at each institution. And in the field of electronics, no reason why they could not be integrated and brought together.

So this in my opinion, Sir, is a good move and in the long run I would hope would save many thousands of dollars to the taxpayers of this Province. It will also save in the field of administration,because you also have duplication of services as far as administering the College of Trades and the College of Fisheries are concerned. You have, I presu~e, two registrars. You have two sets of payroll peo~le, two sets of accounting people and you could go all the way down the line, Sir. So in that regard,as far as integrating the t~,ro facilities is concerned, ~r.

Speaker, I would think that that is an excellent move and one that will pay dividends -over the long haul. The other thing - and I believe some of the hon. members might have gotten off the track a little bit because I followed what the minister had to say very, very closely and after listening to some of the speakers that have taken

part in second reading in this debate, Sir, of the principle of this bill, I "io7ondered to myself if I should get up and speak on it at all, I felt so depressed. and so pessimistic after listening to some of the remarks that have been made. The minister, ¥r. Speaker, as far as I can see very clearly stated that apart from integrating the t~vo colleges that the government v1ere going to go ahead, the administration ~.rere going to go ahead

March 16, 19V7 Tape no. 1066 Page 1 - mw Mr. Neary. with the idea of building a polytechnical institute in this Province. The minister told us that the design had been pretty well finalized, pretty well complete. The site had been picked. As a matter of fact, the s'.ite was picked by the former administration.

And then the minister told the House - and I believe this is the key to the whole thing - that the government were going to put together a package to present to the Government of Canada, and therein lies, I would say, the key to the polytechnical insitute, whether or not the Government of Canada will respond to the minister's presentation. And I believe that that is the significant point that a lot of members missed. The Province is merely putting together at this point a package for the Government of Canada to consider.

And I would think that the minister is probably hoping that the Government of Canada would participate financially in the construction of the polytechnical institute to the same degree, if not more, I would say, but at least to the same degree as it did in the construction of the vocational schools in this Province and that is a seventy-five/twenty-five deal. I presume that is the package that the minister is putting to the Government of Canada.

If I were the minister I would probably try to get a~ ninety/ten deal in these times of austerity and with all the unemployment and the economic situation in Newfoundland at the present time. But I would think that the minister would at least expect to get a seventy-five/twenty-five deal. And so, Mr. Speaker, whether or not we will get the beginning~ the actual construction will get underway of the polytechnical institute this year,is problematical right now. I would probably say, because the negotiations have not gotten underway

March 16, 1977 Tape no. 1066 Page 2 - mw yet and the package is just being put together now by the minsiter and his officials, that I doubt very much if there will be a start made this year - there will be a start on the negotiations - unless the Government of Canada, Sir, will agree instantly as soon as the minister walks in the door. MR. HOUSE: There have been discussions. MR. NEARY: There have been discussions.

But as s~on as the minister walks in the door with the package and lays it on the table of the Minister of Manpower and Immigration, unless the minister says instantly, '~es, we will give you a seventy-five/twenty-five deal," then I cannot see, Sir, how the institute can be started this year. But, Mr. Speaker, that does not bar the minister or the administration or this House from dealing with the matter. We have to make a start this year. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, some of the members have indicated to the House that this thing has been on the go now for a considerable number of years.

To be precise, Mr.Speaker, I think it is seven years now since we first heard the mention of a polytechnical institute in this Province. And 1970 was the first time it was raised, and I was a member of the administration at the time that raised this matter of building a polytechnical institute in this Province. The spokesman, of course, for the administration was the former Premier. AN RON. MEMBER: The godfather. MR. NEARY: I doubt if the former Premier was the godfather of the idea. I have grave doubts. He might have been. Maybe it was in the back of his mind, but there were other people who I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, who subtly suggested to the former Premier that we badly needed a polytechnical institute in this Province. 2354

March 16. 1977 Tape no. 1066 Page 3 - mw Mr. Neary. And, Mr. Speaker, the reason we needed it, of course, has been defined and outlined by the minister, and the Premier gave us some of his ideas of why he thought that we should have a polytechnical institute in Newfoundland. My hon. friend who just spoke before me there thought that a great deal of research should be done before the plans are finalized as to the kind of polytechnical institute we would have, what would be taught inside the walls of that insitute.

And my han. friend mentioned the fact that there were a number of professors at the moment who probably had a little free time because • the enrollment at the university was down considerably. MR. LUSH: I think it is down by 1,000. MR. NEARY: It is down by 1,000. Well, Sir, my reaction to that is, and I would suggest this to the minister,that the minister keep, the academics as far away from this polytechnical institute as he can. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear , hear! MR. NEARY: If anybody will screw it up, louse it up, Sir, it will be the academics.

March 16, 1977 Tape 1067 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: And I would submit to the minister that he stay as far away - from these professors over at Memorial University. Now some - they are not all - I am not tarring them all with the one brush. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: No, I am not, Mr. Speaker, but there are some good ones there, but I am afraid that the ones that have free time on their hands are not the· ·ones that the hon. members are talking about, and I would suggest that we have to carefully research this institute and what kinds . of technology will be taught within the walls.

But I would submit, Sir, that the ideas and the suggestions have to come from business and industry, from the trade, and from the trade union movement. There is where you have to get your information, Sir, on the kind of things that should be taught within the walls of the polytechnical institute. You have to get it from business and industry, in the private sector, and from the heads,! would say,of the institutions and the head of the various departments in the public sector. For instance, - AN HON. MEMBER: Even construction firms. MR. NEARY: Well construction,that is a part of private industry.

But I would say, Sir, ·that basically, that generally speaking the recommendations, the basis or the foundation on which this polytechnical institute will be built, the information, generally speaking, will have to come from private enterprise. For instance, Mr. Speaker, I really believe myself -that one of the courses,and I know maybe we are getting ahead of the game now by talking the things that should be taught in the polytechnical institute, but what other way can we get our ideas across to the _ min~~ter, ~ ~ir, if we do not do it here in this hon.

House in second reading of this Bill, that is going to possihly s·ee the construction, the reality of a polytechnical institute in this Prov.ince. I would like to see a course, Mr. Speaker, on industrial

March 16, 1977 Tape 1067 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: and public relations run in a polytechnical institute. I think that is the place for it. There have been stabs made at it in the vocational schools and in the College of Trades and Technology, and once in a while when they get short of something to teach over at the University they might run, the Extension Department might run a course in industrial and labour relations. I think it is too important a matter, Sir, to let slide.

As a matter of fact, Sir, I think it should start right down in the elementary schools and be-taught all the way up through, right up through to University. MR. ROWE: What is that? MR. NEARY: Industrial and public relations. Mr. Speaker, what I have got on my chest- I was away for a day. !-thought members migh~ not recognize me when I got back. But in actual fact, Sir, what it is, I was over this morning to register for the Fishery Conference, and that is more than I can say -- about bon. J:inister, and I sat in and listened to the Minister of Fisheries make his - MR. W.

CARTER: There are not many fishermen from the \.•Tinter cre~rs over there. MR. NEARY: Oh~but they are a few. But, Mr. Speaker, I would like to see that kind of course run in labour and industrial relations and research into the labour relations field, things that we do not do now. Mr. Speaker, I have said it in this House before and I have to repeat it again, that when students graduate from high school or from the vocational schools or from the College of Trades and Technology, and they go into the world, nine chances out of ten, Mr.

Speaker, they will join a union, and nine chances out of ten they know absolutely nothing about the trade union movement. They were taught nothing in high school, they were taught nothing in the vocationalsschools or in the College of Trades and Technology about the trade union movement, something that would probably have a bigger impact and a stronger bearing on their future lives than anything else 295?

March 16, 1977 Tape 1067 PK - 3 Mr. Neary: in society, than anything else, Sir. And yet there is not a sound about the tradeuunion movement. Maybe - AN RON. MEMBER: Grade X. MR. NEARY: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: In Gr