Volume XL Tuesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT · (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas No. 39 25 June 1985

··-----••- ••-•··-- •-·--- • •---••• • •••• .. ·-••-u •-•oo••~>• ·- •• ....... _,. ___ -• • :...:• - •·-- -~- -- ·~• - - ··-- -• The House met at 3:00 p.m. HR. SPEAUK (Kclticbolas): Ot:'der, please! The bon. member for St. Jolm•s Borth. HR. J. CARrEll: On a point of order, llr. Speaker. 1 was coins to raise it as a point of privilese but tbat device bas been somewhat ovel.'tfOrked of late. 1 think a point of order would be sufficient. On Friday, June 21, the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Hr. Simmons) was extremely rude to Your Honour.

Hansard bas provided me with the verbal copy and I believe Your Honour also bas a copy of it. In this exchange be suggests that Your Honour was not doing his job and be says it more than once. Certainly, Whatever Your Honour decides to- do is entirely your privilege. I understand that you overlooked it at the time beeause of your natural, generous nature. But, on the other band, it did happen and it is in Hansard. It is an extremely offensive reference t.o Your Honour and 1 draw it to Your Honour•s attention. HR. "rULK: Hr. Speaker. Hll. SPEAUK: The bon. member for Fogo. HR.

TULIC: To that point of privilege, if it could be called that - HK. J. CARTER: A point of order. HR. "rULK: A point of order or whatever, I L2050 June 25, 1985 Vol IL think be said it was a point of order or a point of privilege. There is only one statement in that whole thing that is correct and that is where the member for st. Jolm • s Borth says. "I am not aware," and that is the truth, we in this House know be is not aware. The other thing is that a point of privilege bas to be raised at the earliest opportunity - All HOB. K!HBER: This is a point of order. HR.~: A point of order. this case - HR.

BARRY: Okay and in Likewise for a point of order. HR. TULK: ·- likewise for a point of order, it should be raised right away, and the member for st. Jolm's Borth bad this thing at twelve-thirty on Friday and refused to do anything about it. 'l'be same time it was delivered to me, it was delivered to him, but that is not the tcey question here. Of course. if the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Hr. Simmons) were insulting Your Honour in any way, or questioning Your Honour in any way, · then be should be made to withdraw it. But, Hr.

Speaker, if you look through Hansard the only thing that you will see here is that the member for Fortune - Hermitage says, .. Hr. Speaker, do your job, do your job this time." Obviously, what the member for Fortune - Hermitage was doing was appealing to the Speaker, there is nothing insulting in that. The llo. 39 R2050

.. ·- ·--· ·--- ----·-... . . .. .... --···--- ·------ ·-- - ~ ....... _.___ ·-- ·--· -·--- -·------- --... -·---- --- . Govenment Han ball) frequently Honour to House Leader (Hr. and the Premier do this. asking Your rule as we all do in certain eases. All the member for Fortune Hermitage has done in this ease is appealed to the Speaker to do the job of the Speaker. and of course Your Honour would have no problem doing that. It is done all the time in this House where we ask the Speaker to do certain things to protect members on this side. This is not a point of order. 'tlumk you. Hr. Speaker. lUl.

SPEADR: To that point of order, I. have only received a copy of Hansard a few moments ago with certain references made here. I will wait until the bon. member for Fortune - Hermitage is here and I would wish to comment. further on the matter at that time. At this stage I would like to welcome a colleague of ours, Bill Purdy. who is 'MLA for Stony Plain constituency of Alberta. SOME HOlt. HEKBERS: Hear. hear! Statements by Kinisters PREMIER PEClCP'ORD: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAICER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PEClCP'ORD: As promised on Friday, Hr. Speaker.

I wish to give the government's response to the federal budget and its impact upon the Province of Newfoundland and L2051 June 25, 1985 Vol XL Labrador as we see it, at this point in time. Since the federal budget was presented in the House of Commons four weeks ago, the llewfoundland government has been analyzing the budget documents and has been meeting with various representatives of the federal government regarding many of the measures and proposals contained within the budget. There is still 111.1eh work to be done to properly assess the complex set of budget measures and proposals.

However. at this time, we have sufficient information to respond to some areas contained within tbe budget and to . outline certain areas of special interest. to this Province. The federal budget is a tough one. Given the difficult. economic and fiscal environment in whieb today•s governments must function, this is not at all surprising. There are some fundamental shifts in government policy which form the basis of many measures and proposals contained within the budget.

There is a strategic rebalancing of priorities whieb places a mueh stronger role on the private sector to create jobs; which controls and reduces the national debt through expenditure cutbacks and revenue measures; and which improves overall govermnent effectiveness through a comprehensive review of all federal govermnent programmes. both eeonomie and social, and through improvements in the fairness and effectiveness of the tax system. Hr. Speaker. these are praiseworthy national objectives and I do not think that anyone could argue against any of them as desirable general policy guidelines for government.

However. I believe that the real test of the federal budget will be Ho. 39 R205l

how equitable the various measures and proposals will be which are used to carry out this new economic renewal strate&Y. Here is the basis of our concern with the federal budget - how equitable the various measures and proposals will be upon all parts of the nation. F~tly. Be&ional Disparities: 1lr. Speaker, this government is concerned tbat the budget does not contain specific measures directed at the persistent regional disparities which continue to face us today.

Measures directed at the private sector are positive in themselves, but because of our weatc private sector, will not achieve the results which we desire in the short-term. Only through an injection in new federal funds in regional development initiatives focused on the Newfoundland and Labrador economy can we expect to close the disparity gap between ourselves and the rest of the nation.

In light of the Intergovernmental Discussion Paper on Regional Development tabled in this House last week by my colleague, the hon. the Minister for Intergovernmental Affairs (Hr. ottenheimer), this government feels assured tbat the federal government will not neglect the importance of public investment to facilitate economic development in our Province.

This paper represents a national consensus tbat specifies: "ln those provinces Which suffer economic disparities, the limitations of the private sector to address these disparities are recognized, therefore, specific public sector policies and programmes aimed at a reduction of regional disparities are required". ' L2052 June 25, 1985 Vol XL With the achievement of this national consensus, emanating from the successful First Ministers • Conference on the economy in February past, the Newfoundland Government will be intensifying consultations with the federal government over the next few months to ensure that the new economic renewal strategy recognizes the unique development needs of this Province and is focused on the need to reduce regional disparities between Newfoundland and the rest of Canada.

Indeed. from our perspective, a truly national economic renewal nust be sensitive to regional needs and regional comparative advantages. Secondly, Encouraging Private Initiative: Hr. Speaker, we support the federal government thrust to encourage private initiative, particularly the development of many small and medium sized businesses, in order to create badly needed jobs. The lifetime capital gains exemption of $500,000 and the ability of pension funds to be invested in private Canadian · corporation should increase the flow of funds into equity investments.

Undoubtedly, this should increase the number of new business starts, should facilitate the expansion of existing business and should improve the financial position of many existing companies, thereby providing them with a financial resilience to better adjust to changing market and business operating conditions. No doubt some businessmen in the Province will benefit from these actions. The major benefits will tend to accrue to other provinces where there is a stronger small business base. That is one of the big problems, to be able to determine how nuch No. 39 R2052

this kind of an initiative will assist tbe llewfoundland and Labrador eeonOIQ'. \e are concerned that with our frasile private sector, with our small business bases these incentives will not be sufficient to do the job. Thirdly, Encouraging Research and Development: The Bewfoundland Government welcomes the recognition in the budget that a strong research and development sector has a vital role to play in Canada's economic renewal and that the Government of Canada will continue to be a major supporter of research and development activity.

Consultation with the provinces and industry is proposed by the Government of Canada to develop an intesrated government-wide approach to research and development in order to combine tbe best aspects of tax incentives and grant programmes. I have already informed the Prime Minister of Canada that my Government stands ready to participate to the fullest extent possible in this process. \e are particularly interested in reviewing the recent changes in the Investment Tax Credit Programme for R & D Activities.

This Province is building a centre of excellence in ocean sciences and marine technology, and a joint effort to ensure investment in locally based research and development activity leading to world mandated product manufacture in the Province nust be encouraged and facilitated to the fullest extent possible. The ltRC Institute of Marine Dynamics is an iEportant catalyst in this new knowledge industry and it is essential that this facility be operated at its full capacity within the next few months.

L2053 June 25, 1985 Vol XL \e 'have some concerns there as to whether or not the budget does provide sufficient funds to allow tbat to occur in the short-term. Thirdly, Special Tax Incentives: The new tax incentive programme for Cape Breton Is land is an interesting one but one of concern to us. This region of Bova Scotia suffers unemployment rates no greater than those in this Province, therefore, it should also apply to our Province.

We have already made a request to the Government of Canada tbat our respective finance officials meet as soon as possible to examine the idea of extending this enriched tax incentive programme to all of Uevfoundla~d and Labrador as part of a regional development programme. \e do not see any reason why, if you look at where we are. as a Province - not as tbe Bonavista Peninsula, the Great Borthern Peninsula, Labrador, Bay d'Espoir, Trinity South, or wherever - that as a Province we do have the same statistics now as does Cape Breton Island, and there is no reason, therefore, if this is a good policy objective to pursue, that it should not also apply to Bewfoundland and Labrador in total.

Fourthly, Impacts of Reducing the Deficit: Hr. Speaker, another major thrust of the federal budget is to take control of the federal debt and to start to reduce annual deficit in an orderly fashion over the next few years. This is a laudable objective. However, as the federal government takes measures to reduce its current account deficits, a question which nust be asked is "Is it being done equitably?" Humber one, family allowance and old age security: The budget has modified the llo. 39 R2053

indexation of family allowance payments and old a&e security payments. The Newfoundland &overnment bas estimated that in 1986 the family allowance payments in Newfoundland and Labrador will be reduced by approximately $2 million and old a&e security payments by over $5 million from what they otherwise would have been. We cannot support the de-indexation of ____ .J:.hese payments and in p~rt~cular the old a&e securit~ -payments. SOME HOB. HEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PRElfiER PECICFORD: Number two, personal and corporate income tax: A number of chan&es to the personal and corporate income tax systems were introduced in the bud&et. These include the lifetime capital &ains exemption of $500,000; modified indexation of personal income tax; personal and corporate income surtaxes; elimination of the federal personal income tax reduction; improvements in the child tax credit provisions; and a variety of other measures.

In 1985, believe it or not, there will be a small net positive impact on Newfoundland•s individual and corporate taxpayers and for 1986 we have estimated that these various income tax measures will cost Newfoundland taxpayers approximately $23 million. The impacts of these chan&es are mixed and a detailed review of them is underway.

The varyin& impacts estimated to date are as follows, and I have a chart in the statement: Item, capital &ains exemption, a positive impact in 1985 of $4 million and a positive impact in 1986 of $6 million; modified personal income tax indexation, 0 L2054 June 25, 1985 Vol XL in 1985, -$16 million in 1986; personal income surtax, -2 this year and -5 million next year; elimination of federal tax reduction, 0 this year and -13 million next year; modification of child tax credit, 0 this year and +5 million next year; corporate income surtax, -1 million this year and -2 million next year; other measures, +1 million this year and +2 million next year; &ivin& you a total on these measures that I just went throu&h of +2 million this year and -23 million next year. 11umber three, c01111110dity tax: There are a number of cban&es in commodity taxes which have a particularly ne&ative impact on the Newfoundland economy.

In the 1985 calendar year we have estimated that the commodity tax chan&es in the federal bud&et will reduce discretionary income by approximate-ly $11 million and that in 1986 the lost income could reach up to $50 million.

The specific impact of these measures are as follows: Commodity Taxes, one per cent increase in federal sales tax rates, 0 in 1985, -15 million in 1986; expansion of federal sales tax base, -3 in 1985, -9 in 1986; Increase in excise levies on ci&arettes and tobacco, -5 in 1985, -9 in 1986; 2 cent a litre excise tax on motive fuels, -3 in 1985, -19 in 1986; other cban&es, 0 in 1985, +2 in 1986; providin& a &rand total of -11 for 1985, and a -SO million for 1986, as best we can indicate it. These are si&nificant withdrawals of income from the Newfoundland economy.

We nust attempt to reduce the extent of lost income. They are particularly severe and they come at a time when we are No. 39 'R2054 ,. ....... .

slow~ be&innin& to recover from tbe recession. So, in one sense they could not come at a worse time. bpenditure 'Reductions: 'In a further effort to control their growing deficits, the Goverrunent of Canada bas announced expenditures progranune cutbacks.

From our discussions with representatives of the Government of Canada over the last few weeks, right up until the end of last week, it is clear that the details of these cutbacks have not yet been finalized in most eases and tbat we have an opportunity over the next few months for detailed discussions and to argue for a recognition of the special problems and special requirements of this Province.

Although no hard decisions have yet been made on these cutbacks and it is therefore difficult to estimate with some · precision the extent of their impact on this Province, some rough estimates have been made, and we nust emphasis that they are rough estimates because we really do not have the details. We believe that without some tangible recognition of the regional disparities Which now exist in Newfoundland as compared with the rest of Canada that the expenditure cutbacks will cause a withdrawal from our economy of approximately $25 million in 1985, in our opinion, and $50 million in 1986.

That is in our economy, tbat is not on our budget, it is within our economy as a Whole. 'It is possible that some business incentives resulting from the federal budget will help to partially offset these expenditure reductions and that some new regional development initiatives might also further reduce these 1.2055 June 2S. 1985 Yol U. - -·--- --- amounts. 'If we sign some other agreements over the next six or eight months, then those federal dollars coming to the economy can offset the ones that are being taken out now over the next two years, if we can get more regional development agreements signed.

My colleagues and I will be discussing expenditure programme cutbacks and regional development initiatives in detail with our respective counterparts over the weeks and months ahead. We will keep the hon. members of this House apprised of our progress as appropriate and as we do make progress. A major thrust of our actions will be to impress upon the federal government the need to continue to support the development of transportation infrastructure tbrougbout the Province.

In recent eO'ltiiiURications with the federal government, the government bas called attention to the effects that further cost-saving measures in the interprovincial ferry and coastal services may have on people and businesses dependent on these vital services. We have clearly outlined our concerns that the federal budget provided no particular policy initiative to fund important transportation infrastructure programmes of benefit to Newfoundland and Labrador over and above the Highways agreement just signed on the Trans-Canada, Trans-Labrador and some secondary roads.

Therefore, we are insisting upon more agreements in transportation on secondary highways, airport developments and general port infrastructure throughout the Province. 'It is this government • s intention to impress upon the federal Ito. 39 1l2055

government the significance of federal investment in the transportation sector of the Province•s economy if we are to be in a position to participate in, and contribute to, economic renewal in Canada. 'In conclusion, ltr. Speaker, the federal budget is expected to have both positive and negative impacts on the finances of the Province. __ _ Many of the impacts are no~ easily measurable.

As the ~expenditure cut.baclc:s become clarified ad as this Province•s priorities and disparities are brought more into the budgetary strate&ic focus, the results could be that any potential revenue losses to the Province are reduced or even eliminated. Our discussions will also cover possible reductions in fiscal transfers to the provinces which, although, they should not impact upon revenues in 1985 1986 and 1986 - 1987, could impact upon revenues during the latter part of this decade and into the early 1990•s.

For example, as bon. members know the budget did contain a provision whereby in the new five year fiscal arrangements agreement between the provinces and the federal government, they were targeting $2 billion in that next five year period for all the provinces to be reduced in the amount of transfers that would go to the provinces. Bow what our share of that is and how that has vorked out we will have to see, but. obviously, we would be losing some in that new five year transfer agreement. We are going to be arguing that we cannot afford to lose that.

The other problem there is we have not really as yet. sat down to look at that new five year agreement and, obviously, we will have to bargain L2056 June 25, 1985 Vol XL very hard and get as many provinces on our side as possible in trying to ensure that that kind of a reverwe loss is not realized in that new five year agreement. Hr. Speaker, we are deeply concerned about many of the measures contained in the federal budget and the impact that they will have on our economy.

When we consider the total budget impact. including the income and commodity tax changes, old age security, and family allowance cutbaclc:s,. and the other expenditure programme cutbaclc:s, the total withdrawal of funds from the economy is estimated to be aproximately $35 million in 1985 to $130 million in 1986. HR. BARRY: Shame! Shame! PREMIER PECICFORD: To be fair. it should be ·pointed out that we have signed eight federal/provincial agreements over the past year or so in areas ranging from tourism to ocean industries to transportation.

These agreements will inject about $150 million in federal funds into the provincial economy before the end of 1986. This is almost equal to the amount we expect to lose over the same period as a result of the federal budget. These federal/provincial programmes are designed to stini.Jlate our econony in targeted sectors and while they will no doubt have a positive impact, losses to our economy through the federal budget are still a matter of deep concern. Obviously. we bad hoped that our $150 million of federal dollars over the next two years would be on top of what is already coming.

Seeing the reduction now leaves us at the same poi1:1t at the end of 1986 as if we did not get those No. 39 R2056

agreements in the beginning. So obviously, that is not a very positive positiOR t.o be in. '!'he llewfoundland economy has still not., Hr. Speaker., recovered t.o its pre-recessiOR peak. As we all know, if we look at the employment and unemployment figures as well as other relevant statistical measures. Any actions which could dampen our recovery must be tackled immediately. I recognize that all canadian must shoulder some of the pain of the federal budget.

At the same time, the Bewfoundland Government must be absolutely certain that our share of the pain takes into account the relative economic and fiscal disparities which we suffer as compared with the rest of Canada. I am confident that our concerns will be viewed with an open mind by the Govermnent of canada and that open consultative approach to negotiations which bas evolved during the past few months will allow us to deal with these budget cORcerns fairly and equitably. Mr.

Speaker, as Canadians, we in Uewfoundland and Labrador are willing to bear our share of the burden to allow the private sector to flourish and to create badly needed jobs, to help the financial position of the Government of Canada to be placed on a sounder footing and to help government programmes to be operated more effectively and efficiently. But, at the same time, we want to make sure that we are being dealt with equitably and fairly while doing so. This is my message to this bon. House today, to the people of our Province and. especially, to the Government of Canada. I enclose, Mr.

Speaker, a letter that I sent to the Prime Minister of June 6, which, in a preliminary L2057 June 2S, 1985 Vol II. way, dealt with some of the matters that. I have dealt with today in my Ministerial Statement.. The only difference is t.hat at. the time that. I wrote the Prime Minister, I did not have the m.nnbers to put before him as I have today and which we will be putting before them over the next few weeks.

I have already communicated with the federal government and indicated t.o them our position as it relates to the budget. as we see it to date and that. we intend to aggressively pursue the concerns that we have. Also attached to this statement. besides a letter to the Prime Minister, is one that. was sent the same day to the Minister of Finance in Ottawa (Hr. Wilson) from the Minister of Finance in llewfoundland (Dr. Collins) outlining our concerns and indicating that we intend to pursue very vigorously those negative impacts upon our economy to see that. they are corrected so that.

Uewfoundland ean truly prosper over the next four or five years. Thank you. Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the title of this presentation by the Premier could be Wither Consultation and Cooperation. The end result, Mr. Speaker, of this greatly hailed new era or Ito. 39 R2057

cooperation and consultation is that we have a Premier now getting up and saying that the government, Which be has been pressing for and fighting to see installed in ottawa, is now out to take away $35 million in 1985 from this Province, $130 million by 1986. The amount will increase with each year and we can foresee, Hr. Speaker, based on the figures used by the Premier himself in his speech to Rotary, Where he was saying that we , could expect government reverwes in the area of $200 million a year from Hibernia, 1tr'.

Speaker, that by the time that Hibernia is onstream what the Province is losing as a result of the budget measures will be greater than the reverwe that it receives from Hibernia. I guess that pretty well sums up why the Prime Minister was not too concerned about talking about the reverwe provisions in the Atlantic Accord. Hr. Speaker, we have the Premier in this document giving 111.1ch too llllCh credence to the lip service Which is being paid to such concepts as fairness in the Hulroney/Wilson budget. Yes, they talk about fairness and equity as being a main principle and then, Hr.

Speaker, they turn around and they attempt to cure the deficit on the backs of the aged and the poor. 1tr'. Speaker, whatever the lip service might be at the higher level of generality, in practical terms, in terms of implementation, in terms - of the measures, the policies, the progranuues, Which the Premier says must be looked at in order to determine Whether it is being fair, that Hulroney/Wilson budget is neither fair nor equitable. It is unfair, it is inequitable and it is now L2058 June 25, 1985 Vol XL widely recognized as such even by the strongest of the Tories, Hr. Speaker, across this nation.

But, the Premier is, somehow, Hr. Speaker, for some reason, surprisingly low key and almost silent. We have finally gotten out of him, Hr. Speaker, the fact that he cannot support the de-indexation of the famijy allowance and old age security payments because we -are going to lose up to $5 million in old age security payments and $2 million in family allowance payments by 1986 alone.

The Premier says we cannot support the de-indexation of these payments. 1 wonder What bas happened to this consultation that is supposedly going on . 1 heard our Cabinet minister, the representative for 11ewfoundland and Labrador in the federal Cabinet on this morning, Hr. Crosbie, saying that he supported de-indexation. What, oh What, is happening to this great era of consultation? Is the Premier (Hr. Peckford) now at odds with our representative in the federal cabinet? Are they no longer speaking? Are they no longer co-ordinating approaches to the Government of Canada? Can we expect, Hr.

Speaker, to have our voice heard as a Province in the Parliament of Canada if our Premier and our federal cabinet representative are going off in different directions? Is this a fundamental difference of philosophy on this crucially important point? Why is it that we have a two line, not even two lines, devoted in this paper to this matter of de-indexation? We cannot support the de-indexation of the~e payments and in particular the old 11o. 39 B.2058

a&e seeurity payments. What are they going to do about it, ltr. Speaker? lf this were the previous government do you think, Hr. Speaker, we litOUld have a tii'O liner like that, a mild, 'We cannot support • ? lit". Speaker, there were longer telexes went off on a daily basis to ottawa about different aspects of the policy of the previous administration. That is not good enough. That is not a strong enough representation on the part of the senior citizens of this Province. HR. TULK: Under the federal Liberal Government, you would have had a day of mourning. HR. BARRY: Yes, there would be a day of mourning.

There would be a week of mourning, ltr. Speaker, not only a day of mourning had this been carried out by the previous administration. Hr. Speaker, 1 am also disturbed by the way in which the Premier talks about and accepts the statements in the Mulroney Vilson budget about the desire to be sensitive to regional needs and regional comparative advantages. The Pl:emier says, 1 think as a result of the intergovernmental discussion paper on regional development and the discussions held by the Minister for Intergovernmental Affairs (Hr.

Ottenheimer) 'the government feels assured that the federal government will not neglect the importance of public investment to facilitate economic development in our Province' and then goes on to say, 'Indeed, from our perspective, a truly national economic renewal must be sensitive L2059 June 25, 1985 Yol XL to regional needs and regional comparative advantages'. ltr.

Speaker. 1 am not at all satisfied that the Prime Hinister of Canada recognizes there is any such thing as an Atlantic region or a Newfoundland region in Canada with special circumstances and special needs. 1 am not at all convinced that the Prime Minister of Canada bas arrived at that great level of understanding yet.

What really bothers me is when 1 think back to the Prime Minister of Canada going down to 11ew York and meeting with all the US oil companies, without any consultation or any discussion with the Premier of this Province and announcing that the 25 per cent backing is going to be removed and that the oil companies are going to be given back the 25 per cent of Hibernia, the 25 per cent of the other oil developments off the Coast of Newfoundland and Labrador. This, Hr.

Speaker, despite the fact that in this Province there was a set of regulations when the companies started drilling that indicated that the Province could participate up to 40 per cent. So tbe Prime 'Minister of canada applied a nation-wide policy and said, 'To bell with any regional differences. To bell with whether there was a special provision in the Newfoundland regulations under which the companies started to drill off Newfoundland and Labrador'. That does not, Hr. Speaker, indicate to me a Prime Minister who is sensitive to regional needs and regional comparative advantages. Now. Hr.

Speaker, the member for Placentia (Hr. Patterson) • one of these days he is going to stand up in his place and make a speech in 11o. 39 R2059

this House. Kr. Speaker, the 50 per cent of llr. Heckle and llr. Jibe. llr. Speaker, the Premier talks about supporting the Government of Canada's initiatives with respect to strengthening the private sector but says, ri&htly so, that the major benefits will accrue to provinces other than Bewfoundland and Labrador because here we have a smaller business base. 'Why do we have such a small business base, Mr.

Speaker, in this Province? 'ro a large extent the Premier and the administration on the other side of the House have to take responsibility, they have been driving away the private investor from this Province. 'the Minister of 'Finance (Dr. Collins) admitted this in his bud&et, ltr. Speaker. Kr. Speaker, the Premier also accepts the lip service contained in the Hub.·oney-Wilson Bud&et with respect to supporting stronger research and development. Hr.

Speaker, we see even the Science Council of Canada having to &O out and hit the bricks and march in protest a&ainst the Government of Canada cutbacks Which are &oing to see a reduction in research and development. Any such reduction is going to hit this Province and lalrt this Province Where we are trying to build upon &reater expertise in marine industry. 'the Science Council of Canada is being hit, we are &oing to see things such as C-Core and the ice tank and so forth being worse off as a result of this Government of Canada budget. ltr.

Speaker, about having canada extend the the the Premier talks Government of tax incentive L2060 June 25, 1985 Vol XL pro&ramme applied in Cape Breton to Bewfoundland and Labrador. I would like to ask the Premier to be a little more imaginative and consider the proposal that we made during the election campaign Where - and perhaps this could be done in the context of discussions with the Government of Canada - where there could be tax breaks, where you would see spheres of different tax rates not just for different parts of Canada, bl,lt. · even for different parts_ or the Province, Mr. Speaker.

This might be a way of helping single industry towns. 'l'his might be a way of helping the areas of highest unemployment, if we saw reduced tax rates in certain portions of this Province, you mi&ht see industry being encoura&ed to locate in those parts of the Province. With respect to personal and corporate income tax, we are unfortunately seeing in the Hulroney-Wilson Budget a manipulation of an existing tax system, rather than a fundamental change in _ the system. I have always, Hr. Speaker, liked the notion of a negative income tax designed as a way of providing a minimal annual income to all Canadians.

I would encourage the Premier to speak to the Government of Canada to have them consider something more than these various Band-aid treatments that they are giving to the current tax system of Canada. Hr. Speaker, I might mention with respect to de-indexation, I am amazed that I do not see any reference to this in the letter Which the Premier sent off to the Government of canada, the Prime Hiniste~ and to Hr. Mulroney. 'l'here was no reference to the Premier being against de-indexing Ho. 39 R2060

of old age security payments in the initial letter. HR. SPEAICER (McNicholas): Ot"der, please! The bon. member's time bas now elapsed. HR. BAHilY: Yes, if I could just have a moment to sum up, Hr. Speaker. SOliE H011. HEKBERS: By leave. HR. SPEAKER: By leave. HR. BARRY: I am surprised that the Premier did not point this out as · a serious defect in the budget proposals when be sent that letter to the Prime Minister and to Hr. Wilson. Is it only after seeing the level of opposition that we now see this meek and mild statement from the Premier?

How does it go again, 'We cannot support •, not that we are against, •we cannot support the de-indexation of these payments.' Hr. Speaker, I am surprised to see t.be Premier finally coming around t.o aclcnowledging, as we have been pointing out, that various ccmunodity taxes, such as the tax on fuel, is going to mean less ~ey in the pockets of 11ewfoundlanders. When we raised t.be matter of gasoline prices in t.be House the Premier indicated, "Ob Hs.

Carney bas said the price is going to be going down at the pump." Well, now we see the Premier aclcnowledging that it is going to cost us $3 million more in 1985 and $19 million in 1986. One or two other brief points, Hr. Speaker, thanking the Premier for L2061 June 25, 1985 Vol XL his leave. There is faulty logic in the Premier attempting to point out that, 'Well, we have gotten these federal - provincial agreements that are going to bring about $150 million into the Province by the end of 1986 • • Those ag't"t!emeelts, Hr.

Speaker, in the normal course of events, are agreements that we have been having regularly. PREMIER PECICFOH.D: Well, I indicated that afterwards. MR. BARRY: Yes, that is not something - you know, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. No, we do not buy that approach. Hr. Speaker, that does not lessen the very serious impact that these budget changes are going to have. This $130 million that we will lose by 1986, that is how much we are going to be losing a year, Hr.

Speaker, even before this $2 billion less in transfer payments comes about, which the Govermnent of Canada bas said that it is setting out as an objective. They hope to cut $2 billion in transfer payments from payments to the Province. Of course, the transfer payments go largely to the poorer provinces sueb as Newfoundland and Labrador. So, Hr. Speaker, just to sum up, I would say that this analysis is too little too late. We had the Premier acknowledge that he had sent off concerns to the Government of Canada a couple of months ago. The numbers were not there. But, Kr. Speaker, we were asking for an analysis.

We were not asking for numbers. We were asking for the Premier to indicate Whether on balance we are going to be better off or worse off. Ho. 39 R2061

'l assume t.hat. we can now conclude, and maybe t.be Premier can indicate, can we conclude from t.bat. tbat. we are now worse off as a result. of the Mulroney - Wilson budget. than we were before the budget.? The Province on balance is worse off, I would think t.bat. that. is the overall conclusion. It. is sad conunentary on this new era of consultation and co-operation, Hr. Speaker. SOME HOB. lUMBERS: Hear, bear! HR. SPEAIC!R (Hcllicbolas): At. this stage I would like to welcome to the galleries the former member for TWillingate, llrs. Ida Reid. SOME HOB. HEHBERS: Hear, bear! Oral Questions HR.

SPEAICER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. BABRY: Yes, Hr. Speaker. I noticed a comment. by t.be Premier (llr. Peckford) reported in the Telegram on Saturday, I think it. was, with respect. to free trade. It might. have been yesterday. I appreciate it. was in the context., to a certain extent, of concern about the tariffs that might be imposed with respect to other fish products as a result of What. bas happened with respect to salt fish. 'l know that there are benefits for the Province from free trade because of the large moount of resources t.bat. we export.

I would like to ask the Premier, bas an analysis been done, a study done of the net. benefits, t.be net. effect. on this L2062 June 25, 1985 Vol XL Province, were canada to have a free trade situation? Particularly, What. would the impact. be upon those few industries t.bat. we have, those few secondary processing plants that. we have? Would they still be able to compete with the American firms? Would, for example, a Purity Factories be able to compete with the American firms if the barriers were thrown down completely? HR. SP'UXER (McNicholas): The bon. t.be Premier. PREKI.Ell PECD'ORD: Hr.

Speaker, I have not got any numbers at my disposal t.o answer the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Barry) directly in totally specific terms, but I think the analysis that. bas been done over the last. couple of years by people in the Government. of Newfoundland bas shown that it. would be a net. positive for the Newfoundland economy. liow whet. her in that. net. positive there would also, through t.be analysis, be a number of negatives but. all of it. comes out. positive because the positives outweigh t.be negatives, I do not know, there possibly could be.

But I do know, from What. we have done to date, that. it. would seem that movement towards free trade would be advantageous in a net way to t.be economy of Newfoundland and Labrador. In every initiative that one takes or does there are going to be positives and negatives and, if it comes out more positive t.ban negative, then I guess that. is t.be way to go. Whether in fact. there would be certain negatives there for locally owned manufacturers now into secondary processing, like Purity Factories or oth~rs I would have to check out., I do not. lmow. I do know t.bat. in the fish No. 39 R2062

business. if we were to move in that direction. seeing What we are just starting to do in secondary processing. and even under a tariff situation we are able to compete. so we would be in very. very good shape. If in fact we moved to a free trade scenario. given the evidence that we have to date as it relates to secondary fish products actually overcoming a tariff and still making money. we would be that better off if in fact we went to a free trade. But. obviously, every policy bas its negatives and its positives and free trade is no different.

The great question is whether in fact overall it is more beneficial to the economy of Newfoundland than not beneficial. HR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPUICER (HcNicholas): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR. BARRY: ltr.

Speaker. we were told by the Premier before the last federal election th8t overall the election of a Conservative govermnent was going to mean that we would be better off but we now see the Premier indicating that the end result is that we are worse off. at least as far as this year is concerned • 1. wonder if the Premier would give any indication as to where be feels the Province would stand as far as its minimum wage levels were concerned. were we to go the route of free trade? Would we be able to compete?

Would Newfoundland industry be able to compete with a minimum wage at the level it is now when you consider the lower wage levels that are present in many of the states of L2063 June 25. 1985 Vol XL the U.S.? HR. SPUICER: The bon. the Premier. PREH.lEil PECICPORD: lt would seem that we would be able to compete. Hr. Speaker. There are a number of states in the United States which have very low mininum wages.

But the markets in which we are competing. it would seem to us. that we would be able to compete and still maintain our mininum wage and contitwe to see it improve over time. 1 do not think we can look to that. There are a number of states 1 am aware of. but they are not in direct competition with a lot of the products that we put into the United States.

Bow. you see. the Southern United states. in some of their mills, even in pulp and paper do not produce the same quality, they do not have the same wood fibre that we have and therefore their markets are not necessarily competitive with ours in every single instance. lt seems to us that we would be able to. over time, improve our standard of living under a free trade scenario if it were brought to the final total free trade than in the present mode that we would be going in. then our standard of living would improve.

Host analyses that have been done by outside people in this field have indicated the same. that we would. There are obviously negatives. there are positives. but it is our view that overall we would be in a better position, economically and standard of living-wise. under a gradual movement towards free trade rather than the present circumstance which inhibits a lot of our goods and services from getting competitive advantage that we would get without tariffs. Uo. 39 R2063

MR. B&RRY: ltr. Speaker. HR. SPEADR (Hcliicholas): The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker, I agree that most analyses by at least academic economists would indicate that. Economists regularly put forth the notion that the breaking down of barriers is the way to go in terms of creating a larger pie for everybody to have a greater share. But, unfortunately, the economists speak in terms of the ideal, perfect situation. They talk about the economic man, the perfectly logical, perfectly rational individual and the perfectly ordered world.

That is why they are so far out almost on a regular basis, because they fail to recognize that we live in an imperfect world, that we are ruled by emotion as well as by logic. 'l lfOUld like to ask the Premier is it possible that the problem with the importation of salt fish into the United States, and the other pressures we are seeing with respect to having so-called subsidies removed from the fishing industry. is it possible that these are being used as pressures, as blackmail, as it were, to force Canada towards a free trade situation?

Is this an attempt by pressuring provinces, to pressure Canada into adopting a free trade philosophy? HR. TULIC: Will they demand that we drop our subsidies? HR. BARRY: "les. And will this be carried so far, before free trade is implemented, as to demand that all L2064 June 25, 1985 Vol XL forms of assistance to fishermen, such as unemployment insurance Which I see regularly being pointed to as an unfair subsidy according to the Americans, will this have to be dropped before we get to a free trade situation? PREHIER PECKFORD: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (Hcliicholas): The bon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Obviously I cannot answer that question. From the

preamble of the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Barry) as it related to the business of free trade and the academics and so on, I do not know What the Leader of the Opposition is trying to do from a political point of view in the question period right now. But looking at the larger question, at What is happening in the European community today, they have had some problems in the agriculture field, no question, but Ireland is a lot better off as a country because they have moved with EEC towards free trade than if they had stayed on their own. HR. BARRY: Ireland would have been a lot better off.

PREHIER PECKFORD: Now there are some problems in France, but Spain and Portugal are now moving towards the EEC, which is towards a freer trade economic zone. And so you have to look at the realities. It is one thing to talk about the academics actually trying to create the perfect world and this would include free trade, but let us look at the practical world. There are large areas of the world llo. 39 R2064

which have moved towards freer trade - there is no such thing. I suppose, as black and white situation where a lot of the components of that economic zone have benefitted tremendously. and it is still working. With all of its faults it is working and it is working, obviously, for the members in it, otherwise they would have gotten out. They are still better off because they are in it than if they were not in it. otherwise, as I say, it would 'have crumbled or they would have got ten out. On. the othe-r part of the Leader of the Opposition's (Hr.

Barry) question, I do not think that this is a concerted attempt, this Whole question of the United States trying to force Canada into a free trade situation, I do not think it is the concerted attempt at all. OVer the years you can see that there have been ad hoc initiatives undertaken by various groups, such as the lumber group in the States of Washington, Oregon, and Idaho, going to the commission to try to get a countervail. In our case it is Puerto Rico doing it. to show the ad hoc nature of it rather than the organized nature of it, look at the US legislators.

If it was all organized, the various Congressmen and Senators in the United States would not be taking it upon themselves to introduce private bill in the Congress or in the Senate. If it was so oqanized they would not have to do it that way. So I do not see any real oqanized attempt on behalf of anybody. I think it is an attempt by lobby groups with their own particular interest to protect their own turf. And that is What is happening in Puerto Rico, that is what has happened with the potatoes in New England, that is What happened with the L2065 June 25, 1985 Vol XL lumber on the West Coast of the United States.

So I do not perceive it as any devious plot by an underground group who are trying to ensure that Canada moves closer to a free trade idea economically. I. see it as a more ad hoc arrangement where various lobby groups are doing their upmost trying to protect their own turf and their own little industry. And the proof of that can be seen from the various kinds of ways they have gone about trying to protect that turf through Congressmen or Senators or through the countervail process that is in operation in the United States.

In the United States itself there is a seesaw, balancing act going on because there is a whole group in favour of free trade and there • I are a large group who are aga1nst it and it will be interesting to see what happens over the next year. As I indicated on Friday, not in the House but outside the Hause, there is a very interesting meeting coming up in August in Idaho with the Bational Association of Governors to which all the Premiers are invited to talk about two topics. One is the whole question of acid rain because, once again, you have a balancing act down in the United States as the bon.

Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Barry) knows. You have the Pennsylvanias and the Ohios of this world who are saying there is no concrete evidence, we need more study before we do anything on acid rain, versus those in New England and in the Pacific Northwest who are more inclined to agree that there is a problem with acid rain and we should do something right away. In the same way you have a balaneing act as it relates to free trade between the Governors No. 39 R2065

and it will be very interesting to see bow the whole thing evolves. But to answer the question directly I do not think there is a concerted, planned initiative on behalf of the Americans in this regard. HR. BAlmY: llr. Speaker. HR. SPEADR (Hc11icbolas): The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR.

BABRY: I ask the Premier when be is having discussion with the Governors to keep in mind that even if it is concluded to be desirable to move to free trade, there is a very real danger of short-term dislocation and economic upset and industries being closed down in the process of forcing them to become economic and people thrown out of work in the meantime. After ten, fifteen or twenty years we might be better off, but. there might. be another generation lost in the meantime. 1tov, ltr. Speaker, another question just briefly.

In light of the Premier's analysis, in light of his acceptance that, as we have been pointing out for several weeks now, the federal budget is on balance bad for this Province, puts this Province in a worse position, I wonder would the Premier now agree to having a resolution go from this House, that we condemn the Wilson budget and the Government of Canada for its de-indexing of senior citizens• pensions and for attempting to cure deficit problems on the backs of the aged and the poor? SOH! HO'II. MEMBERS: Hear, bear! L2066 June 25, 1985 Vol XL HR. SPEADR (HcHicbolas): The bon. the Premier.

PREHIER P!!ClCFOHD: On the first part of the Leader of the Opposition • s question, the question of adjustment periods and so on in the free trade situation, obviously just about anybody who talks about moving towards free trade is not talking about going to free trade tomorrow morning, that, obviously, built into it would have to be some kind of an adjustment period for the very reasons that the bon. Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Barry) mentioned. Nobody is talking black and white here, we are talking more black into gray and finally into some kind of off white.

It is not all that dogmatic or that categoric in its description or in its final analysis. On the other question of whether we would support a resolution, I would have to take a bard look at the resolution, Kr. Speaker. It may be possible for us to support a resolution but some of the condemnations that tbe Leader of the Opposition is talking about I do not think would be appropriate, but there might be some way that the resolution can be worded to be acceptable to both sides of the House, and I am willing to look at various wording to resolutions. MR. W. CARTER: Hr. Speaker. HR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. member for TWillingate. HR. W. CARTER: Hr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey). In view of the fact that Canada Mortgage announced that they are going to discontinue, certainly 110. 39 R2066 .... ,. ..

for the immediate future, fundin& cronic care homes in the Province, and I think that has been pretty well established, can the minister tell .the House, Hr. Speaker, What, if any. homes will be proceeded with this year? HR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Health. DR. TWOHEY: The only cronic care homes that I know of that are goin& to be proceeded with this year; there is an On&Oin& one in Placentia, they are start in& one in Botwood, and they are reeonvertin& the hospital in Buchans. HR. W. CARTER: I. supp lementacy, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEI.I{ER (McNicholas): The bon. member for TWillin&ate. HR. W.

CARTER: I. supplementary to the Premier, Hr.Speaker. Could the Premier tell the House if he will honour a promise that was made to the people of Twillingate prior to the April 2 election that a senior citizens• home would be built in that community? I believe a similar promise was made to the people in the A.gnes Pratt Home, an extension was promised to the Bonavista senior citizens• home, and I believe a similar promise was made to Bell Island, certainly to Bay d'Espoir and other comnunities. But my main question, Hr. Speaker, now concerns "l'tri.ll i.ngat.e.

Vi 11 the Premier tell the House if work on tbat home will eonunence as p~? HR. SPEI.XER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PICKFORD: L2067 June 25, 1985 Vol XL Hr. Speaker, I did not promise a senior citizens• home to the people of Twillingate. I indicated in the time that I was in Twillingate district that we were willing to look at the concerns of the people of Twillingate as related to senior citizens, but I gave no commitment that a senior citizens' home would be started in Twillin&ate. HR. W. CARTER: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. HR. SPEI.ICER (HcHicholas): 'lhe bon. member for Twillingate. HR. W. CARTER: Hr.

Speaker, I have here a letter signed by the Premier dated April lOth. addressed to the town clerk in the town of Durrells, in which be says, "As pointed out in your letter tbe Twillingate Inter-faith Senior Citizens Home is scheduled to begin in 1985". He goes on to say, "For tbe record this means after the beginning of tbe fiscal year, that is April 1, 1985." That is a copy of a letter signed by the Premier to tbe town council of Dtirrells in which the Premier clearly promises that work on that home would commence in the new fiscal year and in his own words, "after April 1, 1985". HR.

SPEAICER: The bon. tbe Premier. PREHIER PECKFORD: Hr. Speaker, I would have to see the letter, I do not remember it. I will have to see what. the bon. member is talkin& about there. Would the bon. member will table t.be let.t.er so I ean see t.be whole works of it? I understood that the Twillingate home was on a list with a lot of others for priority with the department ·to which it related at tbe time. No. 39 R2067

HR. LUSH: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEADR (KcBicholas): The bon. member for Bonavista Borth. ltll. LUSH: ltr. Speaker, 'I have a question for the Premier as well. 'the Premier will recall that I have raised in this session several times the mandatory buy-back of salmon licenses from part-time fishermen. 'I am sure the Premier 11Ust be aware that one of the large groups affected by this mandatory buy-back is our senior citizens. Again in this situation we see an example of where the federal government gives with one hand and takes back with the other. Bow the question I have, ltr.

Speaker. is the Premier aware that the monies that senior citizens will get as a result of the buy back is counted as income. lblld the Premier not agree that this is certainly an unfair and an unjust way to buy back salmon licenses from senior citizens, people who have borne the heat of the day to whom a salmon license is considered as a birthright. a part of their culture and indeed a part of their heritage?

Bow they are being subtle about this and they are going to buy back the salmon licenses and then count it as income which means that senior citizens will have an amount deducted from their cheques, possibly for the next year or the next year and a half. 1tR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREHIER PEClCFORD: Mr. Speaker, I cannot give a definitive answer to it today but I will undertake to look into it for the bon. member and get back L2068 June 2S. 1985 Vol U. to him on it. HR. EFFORD: Hr. Speaker. Mil. SPEADR: 'the bon. member for Port de Grave. Mil. EFFORD: 1tr. Speaker. my question is to the member for St.

John's East (Hr. Marshall) . 'In view of all the problems still with the electricity rates. and due to the fact that this bon. House will soon be closing for the SUmmer and when it reopens in the Fall that problem is still going to be facing the people, even greater according to the latest news we heard just recently since the rates will increase again in September.

I am just wondering if the minister would give this House some indication of What government intends to do to alleviate the problem facing low income people, senior citizens and other people who will be greatly affected by the high cost of electricity rates this coming 'Winter? Mil. SPEAICER (McNicholas): 'the bon. President of the Council. 1tR. HAHSHALL: Hr.

Speaker, as the bon. gentleman knows, the policy of the government, which has been the policy for a number of years, is that it is on a user - pay basis. 'We would hope next year that the cost of electricity will be less to the people than it was this year because last year, as the bon. member knows. the cost of electricity was aggravated by the low rain fall. But I can tell the bon. gentleman that it is not the policy of the government to differentiate between various people. It is a user - pay policy and there are no smaller rates for 110. 39 R2068

senio~ eit.uens o~ fo~ any ot.be~ group of people. So that is really the position. Any alleviation of the financial p~blems that eertain speeial inte~est g~ups have is obtained tb~gb ways other than through subsidization of eleetrieal rates for that particular group. HR. SPEAKER (Helfiebolas): The-bon. member for Port de Grave. HR. D'FO'RD: Boy ob boy! answer. Hever a straight Hr.

Speaker, the p~blem is the faet that the Winter is earning on, the majority of the population is not working. and those who are working are employed mostly on make-work p~grammes, wbieb p~vide very, very low ineome; the fuel adjustment ebarge went up last month and there is talk of it going up again in September - I. think the Premier himself made that statement a few days ago so bow in this world are the people supposed to pay their eleetrieity rates? If they eould not pay them last year, bow are they going to pay the ever increasing rates next Winter?

Now we have got to get some sort of an answer before winter eomes. We just eannot aecept as fact that there is no solution, There bas to be a sensible solution put down by the government of this Province or the people are not going to be able to beat their homes or eat food. We have to have a 1110re satisfactory answer before this House eloses. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. the .President of the Couneil. HR. l4ABSHALL: Hr. Speaker, I do not _ know what the bon. gentleman is suggesting L2069 June 25, 1985 Vol XL about wbat. we ean do.

The ebeaper electricity is dependent upon rainfalL I will not go into a litany again of What the long-term solution is. we have repeated that over and over again to the bon. gentleman. I will give the bon. gentleman a fuller answer if be can keep his colleague quiet. HR. EFFORD: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAICER: The bon. member for Port de Grave. HR. D'FORD: Hr. Speaker, how ean the minister say that we do not have any rainfall When just last week I bad to empty out my offiee of water, so we are certainly getting lots of rainfall?

What about the faet that we heard just last week there was a forgiveness of a $20 million loan for the Province of PEl and also something to do with a further subsidy of the hydroelectricity rates for the people of PEl? What answer can the minister give us on that? Why cannot 'Newfoundland get the same thing? HR. SPEAKER: The bon. President of the Council. HR. MARSHALL: I do not tc:now, Hr.

Speaker, whether the rainfall that came down in the bon. gentleman's quarters would contribute in any way to electrical generation, but I can state that during this part of the session, anyway, there has been very little voltage that we have received on this side, or very little shock received from the gentleman in the Opposition. With respect to subsidization, the bon. gentleman tc:nows that we subsidize electrical rates in this No. 39 R2069

Province to the tune of $-40 million a year. SOME H011. KEHBERS: Oh, oh! HR. SPEAICER: Order, please! Order, please! HR. HABSHALL: If the bon. answer I will would he ask keep quiet? MR. CALI.All: gentleman wants an give it to him, but his colleagues to He bas just asked me. MR. HARSHALL: The member bas asked the bon. gentleman to keep quiet. How. Hr. Speaker, the bon. gentleman is asking a question so his colleague should keep quiet because he is going to get a sensible answer. We are subsidizing the electrical rates in this Province to the tune of $-40 million a year.

The deficit on current account this year is about $70 million. In order to subsidize farther we would have to borrow more to pay our grocery bills, so there is just no room for subsidization. Insofar as the subsidy goes for electrical rates, Hr. Speaker, we do not take a back seat to any Province. We have maintained the best balance that we possibly can. ~ are sensitive to the rural areas and, through the Power Distribution District, we are subsidizing it considerably to the tune of $20 million, and the other $20 million goes on the ERCO contract and the other industrial contracts in this Province.

So we are subsidizing to the greatest degree possible; When we subsidize, we subsidize for the L2070 June 25, 1985 Vol XL rural areas Where the cost is greater and there is less of a capacity to pay, so we cannot subsidize any more. To adopt the bon. gentleman • s suggestion, if I understand his suggestion, would mean that we would raise the deficit and have to raise taxes. MR. EFFORD: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEADR: A supplementary, for Port de Grave. HR. EFFORD: the bon. member The question I asked about subsidy was from the federal government, not from the provincial government.

If the federal is going to have a subsidy for- the people of PEI, Why cannot they do the same thing to the people of this Province? The bon. minister must realize the low income people of this Province and senior citizens have a very serious problem ' now with either paying their bills or eating food, and it is going to be even greater again next Winter. How we do not require a smart answer. ~ just require a sensible answer that the people of this Province can understand. SOME HOlt. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: The bon. President of Council. 1m. HARSHALL: Hr. Speaker. I am shaking in my boots.

Where is Ekky now that we need him, I wonder? HR. EFFORD: Answer the question for the people of the province. HR. SPEAKER: Ho. 39 R2070

Orier, please! HR. HAHSHALL: llr. Speaker, the bon. gentleman nov is getting exercised, I get his colleagues exercised, so I asked him to tell his colleagues to keep quiet. How I ask the bon . gentleman to keep quiet if he wants an answer. How, Hr. Speaker,~t him give me more details •. ..-- He just gets up and floats -· up - the bland statement about the subsidization of the federal government to PEl. Is he aware that the Province of Prince Edward Island has SO per cent higher rates than any other province in Canada, including this Province?

Is the bon. gentleman not aware that our rates 1ftJU ld at least. be SO per cent less than they are at the present time if we bad the rights to the Upper Churchill that the han. gentleman•s predecessors gave away? The bon. gentleman wants easy ·answers to the electrical rates problem. Let the bon. gentlemen get up and indicate what they would do if they were in power to reduce the rates. Why does he not advise us What his party did when it was in power here?

Why does he not get up and talk about what the federal Liberal party did when it was in power just a few months ago, to alleviate the electrical rates in this Province? The fact is it would not give us a satisfactory power corridor through Quebec, and on and on and on. The questions that the bon. gentlemen want simplistic answers to, Hr. Speaker, tbe simplistic answers are not there. We wish they were. If they could be we would have a reduction of electrical rates. HR. En'OHD: L2071 June 2S, 198S Vol XL A supplementary. Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the member for Port de Grave. HR.

D"FOHD: It is amazing after fourteen years in goverrunent that those members over there still have to blame it on the former Liberal government. It is unbelievable that it takes fourteens years to keep blaming and blaming and blaming. The fact is that the rates on PEl is not SO per cent higher than the rates in Newfoundland . Taking into consideration the fuel adjustment charge, our rates are very, very much higher than the rates in PEl. So you cannot come back with the answer that it is SO per cent. HR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Since this supplementary a

preamble. question. is a final there is no need of Please pose your The bon. the member for Port de Grave. HR. EFFOHD: The whole point is, Hr. Speaker, that the bon. member has not yet given us an answer to the question about what will he bring into this House that he will help the people next Winter, and if that is the case he is completely falling down on the job. So why cannot the minister give us one sensible answer about the electricity rates? HR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the President of the Council. HR. HAHSHALL: Hpw that supplementary Bo. 39 is some question! sensible Is that R2071

not great representation for the people of the historic district of Port de Grave. l:ou know, • The minister bas not given a sensible answerc t HR. EFFO'RD: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEADR: A point of order, the bon. the member for Port de Grave. HR. En"O'RD: 'I asked the bon. member a question about electricity ~tes and the people of Port de Grave are well aware of the character reference of the member for Port de Grave. They do not need that answer. They need an answer to the high electricity rates. Answer that question. HR. SPEADR: To that point of order, maybe the bon. member would give his reply.

HR. HARSHALL: 'I have to apologize to the House. Hr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman was driving me to the wall with his answers so 'I had to strike back in the savage way that 'I did to the bon. gentleman. 'If I lnlrt the bon. gentleman's feelings, and least of all the constituents of Port de Grave, I very humbly apologize to the bon. member and to the House. 1.tr. Speaker, 'I bave responded to the bon. gentleman, I had thought, in a very forthcoming manner. I bad told him that we are doing the best we can.

All I can do is guarantee him that this minister has been and will do a better job than his predecessor had done When his predecessor had this position. HR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! L2072 June 25, 1985 Vol XL The time for Oral Questions bas now elapsed. Notices of motion. PREMIER PECICFO'RD: llr. Speaker. HR. SPEAXEK: The hon. the Premier. PREKIER PECUO'RD: llr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Barry) is in agreement, if he wants to pass this resolution now on the de-indexation of old age security payments. if the bon.

Leader of the Opposition wants to move it I will second it, or vice versa; Hove that this House go on record as being opposed to the policy of the federal government to de-index old age security payments. Is that okay with the Leader of the Opposition? HR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. BAlm'!: Yes, llr. Speaker. It took a little While, and it is a little watered down, but it is better than nothing. I would be happy to second that, Hr. Speaker. On motion, a resolution regarding de-indexing of old age security payments as presented by the hon. the Premier vas unani'lDDUsly carried. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Answers to Questions for Which Hotice has been Given PREMIER PECICFORD: No. 39 R2072

Hr. Speaker. 'HR. SPEAICER: The bon. t.he Premier. PRDIER PECUORD: Mr. Speaker, I would reply t.o the bon. "bfillingate (Mr. W. did not read all unfortunately, and answer him. just like t.o member for Carter). He the letter, I want to Yes, it. was to go ~ -alie8d on schedule, but the member forgot to mention that t.he Province and the Twillingat.e Home Board are awaiting word from Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation as to the availability of the necessary funding. Unfortunately, that funding did not come through. Petitions 'HR. SPEAICER: The bon. member for Torngat. lbmtains. 'HR. WARREN: 1lr.

Speaker, I wish to present three petitions but, with the indulgence of the Chair, as the three petitions are concerning UIC for fishermen, I would like to suggest, Sir, that I present the three petitions in one. I may take a little longer than five minutes but if it is okay with the Chair I could present the three petitions in one. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed? MR. WARREN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the petitions are from the fishermen in the town of 1\aklcovilc. 'HR. SPEAICER: L2073 June 25, 1985 Yol II. Order, please! I was not quite clear what the bon. member wanted. 'HR. WARREll: Hr.

Speaker, I have three petitions but instead of spending fifteen minutes I probably would take seven or eight minutes and combine the three petitions in one as they relate to the same subject.. HR. SPEADR: Is that agreed? Agreed. 'HR. WARREll: Okay, Hr. Speaker. The petitions are from the fishermen of Hakkovik and the fishermen of Postville and, also from the fishermen supporters from the town of ltaklcovilc. The prayer of the petition - I will read one prayer - is pretty well the same prayer for all three petitions.

"We, the residents of the eomnunity of Haklcovik wish t.o ask t.he Gove't"'RlDeelt of llewfoundland and Labrador to consider the request by our fishermen for extended benefits because of the delay in the fishery through ice conditions. These fishermen have no income whatsoever since Hay 15 and will be delayed at least three weeks to a month. 'We feel left out from the rest of Canada and considered to be treated as second class citizens. Please do what you can". Bow, Mr.

Speaker, some time ago because of representation by members of this House, by the Premier and by the Fishermens' Union, the federal government decided they were going to extend UIC benefits or at least pay mDnies equivalent to UIC benefits t.o fishermen in this Province who No. 39 ll2073

could not fish because of ice conditions. 'When I found this out, I contacted the bon. Flora MacDonald • s office and vas told by one of her assistants that this included all fishermen Who were affected by ice conditions. I asked at the time What vas the criteria and the three basic stipulations were: First, the fishermen had to be on UIC up to Hay 15, Which fishermen in my district qualified for. The seeond one vas that they bad to be bonafided full-t.ilae fishermen, Which the fishermen in my district. qualified for. The third thing was they could not fish because of ice conditions.

Again, fishermen in my district fell under the same guidelines. So the individual told me •yes, they do agree.• Subsequently, the Minister of Fisheries made a statement in here saying it included all fishermen Borth also of Rigolet.. About five days later the Department of Fisheries and Oceans decided that it only will go as far as Cape Harrison and Cape Harrison, Hr.

Speaker, for the information of some bon. members in this House Who do not know the Coast of Labrador, is about seventeen miles south of Hakkovik, roughly seventeen miles south of Kakkovik and there are 217 fishermen approximately north of Kakkovik who will not avail of this special monies to alleviate the conditions that they are in. On top of that, Hr.

Speaker, Which really makes my blood boil and really is upsetting to the people up there, is that there are fishermen from Fogo, there are fishermen from the Strait of Belle Isle, there are fishermen from 'l'Willingate, there are fishermen from Carbonear and fishermen from L2074 June 25, 1985 Vol XL nine districts Who fish in Kakkovik during the SUmmertime. These fishermen, because they belong to Fogo, or because they are living in the Strait of Belle Isle, can draw their UIC or they can get this special payment and they fish in Hakkovik during the year. I think it is really discrimination. HR.

TUL~: What vas that you said? llll. WADEH: I say to the bon. member, wherever there is fishermen that fish in Hakkovik during the year, they eannot fish now because of ice conditions and they can qualify for this benefit. HR. TULK: Why can your fishermen not get it? HR. WABREH: This is why these petitions are coming forward, because the federal government, again - as the former federal government has are treating the citizens in Borthern Labrador as second class citizens. This is the problem. Hr. Speaker, I am utterly upset, the fishermen are utterly upset.

They, Who get the lowest number of dollars per year because they have the shortest fishing season, cannot get benefits, While fishermen Who fish in their area in the SUmmertime, beeause they cannot fish now in Fogo or the Strait of Belle Isle or TWillingate, they can get this benefit. I think it is downright discrimination and, furthermore, I believe, Hr. Speaker, if it vas challenged, it is against the lnnnan rights of this country. We are discriminating against people No. 39 R2074

beeause t.be,J' live in the llortb. llr.. Speaker. if t.he fisbecmea could go fishing today they would go fishing. Bot only are they delayed today, but it will be another bilo weeks at. least before they can get their first nets in the water. Here we have the Government of Canada, through the Minister of Employment and Illll'lligrat.ion (Kiss. MacDonald) first saying yes, or her officials saying yes. and then the Federal Fisheries saying no, it. is only as far as Cape Harrison. I would like to suggest, Hr. Speaker, this House go on record condemning the federal government for this action they are taking.

It is discrimination against people who need income as well as anyone else in this Province. We are the Province of Bewfoundland and Labrador, not just the Province of 11ewfoundland and part of Labrador. l. MJUld like t.o place these petitions on the Yable and refer t.bem t.o the department. to which they relate. Hopefully, Hr. Speaker, we can, as a government of this Province, as members of the Legislature, fight for all residents of this Province, and to make sure that no one will be treated unfairly and treated as second class citizens, as is being done to the people in my district. SOH! H011.

HEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR. 'rULK: 1tr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the member for Fogo. HR. mLK: Hr. Speaker, let me say to my 1.2075 June 25. 1985 Vol 'XL former colleague for Tornsat. ttountains (Hr. warren> that. the conditions he outlined for receiving unemployment insurance in the Province are the correc.t conditions. I believed they were the conditions for all fishermen in the Province, regardless of whether they live in Borthern Labrador or whether they live on the South Coast of the Province. I find it ~~~ng. Mr -;- ___ Speaker, we support the petition on this side.

We have no problem in supporting that petition because it is the rankest form of discrimination that one could have against anybody in this Province, that because you live in a certain area and while you are subject to the same conditions as other people in other parts of the Province, yet, you are not eligible for certain benefits that flow from either the provincial or the federal government. So having said that, Kr. Speaker, let me say that we support the prayer of the petition and we sympathize with the member for Torngat ltountains.

I guess he is now finding out that sitting on the government side of this House and being in tune with his Tory buddies in Ottawa does not necessarily guarantee the policies that we objected to when the Federal Liberals were in power on this side will be solved by his Federal Tory buddies in Ottawa. Now I have to tell him, Mr. Speaker, do what he might, but there is that centralist Canadian attitude, regardless of what political party is in office, at times you have a job to convince them that certain things are necessary and that certain things are right. 'Ito. 39 112075

ltr. Speaker, we, as I have said, have no hesitation at all in supporting this petition. As a matter of fact, we will even construct, by leave of this House, a resolution and send it immediately, condemning the federal government, as they should be condenned, for allowin& this state of discrimination to go on. As a matter of fact, when I sit we will put together a resolution and we will ask leave. We can put it together now. 'The resolution is very simple, and we are asking leave now, ltr.

Speaker. of the governmea.t. side of the House - perllaps the llleJIIber will see tbat that is granted - that this House go on record as condennin& the federal government. The resolution should read that this Hause go on record as condeJI'Ilin& the federal government for its discriminatory actions against the fisbermen of llorthern Labrador as regards the Unemployment Insurance Commission Act. Do we have leave? HR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. HR. RIDEOUT: Hr.

Speaker, I would like to say a few words as well in support of the petitions presented by my colleague for Torngat Mountains (Hr . 'Warren) and supported by the bon. gentleman for Fogo (Hr. Tulk). 'When this supplementary programme was announced by the Federal Minister (Hr. Fraser) we, as the bon. gentlemen representing the area, were informed that this programme of assistance would apply to all fishermen no matter L2076 June 25, 1985 Vol XL where they lived in llewfoundland and Labrador. 'We were very pleased with that, Hr.

Speaker, because we know that the gentleman for Torngat Mountains had raised this matter in the House in other years and in other situations when those programmes were brought in and his constituents were left out. We were very, very surprised just a few days later, following some new information, to find out that the programme only extended as far as cape Harrison, as it did in other years.

We, immediately, as a department, with the support of the bon.. gentlemen, made our feelin&s known to the Federal Minister of Employment and "lnunigration (Hiss 'MacDonald) and to the Federal Minister of 'Fisheries (Hr. 'Fraser) .

We think this is blatant discrimination against the fishermen who happen to live on the llorthern Coast of Labrador, if, as the bon. gentleman said, for example fishermen from my constituency around llippers Harbour and LaScie go llorth in the SUmmertime to fish, because they are living in LaSeie or Nippers Harbour they are able to draw from this special fund because of iee conditions in their area, yet a large number of their UIC premiums may very well have resulted from fish caught on the North Coast of Labrador, and the people who live up there are not allowed to gain advantage from this programme.

We were very, very clear and vecy straightforward and determined to try to get this changed. Unfortunately, it has not been changed to date. I do not know if it will be. The reasoning behind the federal fisheries position is that 'the normal season for fishing on the No. 39 R2076

--·---- ·---- -- -· ·-·- ·---·----·· --·-··---·------·--· ------ ----- Borth Coast of Labrador does not begin anyway, • they say. •until July L We may consider giving them benefits if ice conditions persist. after July 1. • But in the mean.ti.ne. because everybody else in the Province can get benefits from Hay 15, up until such time as the ice conditions abate, then those people are discriminated against and left out. Hr.

Speaker, we support this petition and if the bon. gentleman wants to have a chat with the Opposition House Leader and come to some consensus on a resolution, then I do not think we would have any problem with that either. ltR. TULK: Hr. Speaker. lm. SPEAICER: The bon. member for Fogo. lm. '!ULK: Hr. Speaker, I beg leave of whoever of the government side of the House to clear this matter up now. I would move a resolution - lm. SPEAXER: Order, please! Does the bon- ~r have leave! ltll. 'tUL'K: Do I have leave? I mean the resolution is very simple. SOME HOB. HEKBERS: llo. llo. HR. 'lULK: llo leave? lm. R.

AYLWARD: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. lm. SPEAIC.ER: A point of Minister of order, the bon. Rural, Agricultural 1.2077 June 2S. 1985 Vol n. and llorthern Development. lm. R. AYLWARD: I would reccmmend, since the bon . member for Torngat. Mountains (Hr. warren) and the bon. Opposition House Leader (Hr. Tu lk) have motions prepared themselves, or half prepared betMeen them, that the two of them get together for five minutes, come up with a motion, and come back tQ__the House. It is as simp!! as that. lm. 'I:UU: Hr. Chairman, to that point of order. HR. SPEAXER: The bon. member for Fogo. HR.

TULK: I was about to read, and if the member for Torngat Mountains wants to move or second this, I was about to move the resolution that we could put forward inunediately. And to that point of order I would read it for the - ltll. SPEAXER: To that point of order, as I understand it, leave to present that motion has not been unanimously granted. I do not lc:n.cw if you have some ot.lter points of order. ltll.

TULK: On a point of order, I was about to read the resolution that I was going to ask leave for when Your Honour, as is his right, interrupted me and the resolution says that I would move, or the member for Torngat Mountains can move it, but I would move, seconded by the member for Torngat Mountains, that this bon. House go on record as unanimously condemning the federal government for its discrimination against the fishe~ of Labrador in not Ito. 39 R2077

ext.endin& the unemployment insurance programme to benefit tbese fishermen as it has benefitted other fishermen in Bewfoundland and Labrador under similar circumstances. HR. WABREH: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAICER: The bon. member for Torngat Mountains to that point of order. HR. WAHREII: Hr. Speaker, like the Minister of Rural, A&rieultural and 11ortbern Development. (Br. R.

Aylward) said, 'I think we need to get. together because the member should realize already · there is somethin& wrong with this resolution because it is only part of Labrador, and it only starts from cape Harrison in the llorth, so why condeuu fishermen in Labrador who are already gettin& it.? We have to get together. There are only some fishermen in Labrador. HR. TULIC: To that point of order, Hr. Speaker. HR. BARRY: He is afraid to put the word "condemn" in there. HR. SPEAICER: To that point of order, the bon. member for Fogo. HR.

TULK: If the bon. gentleman would wish to get a few 'kudos, or if the government wants to move this resolution then, I have no problem. I.f be wants to chan&e the word "the" to "some", then let us change the word to some fishermen in Labrador. Let us not be so silly. Let us get together and do it. If you want the credit L2078 June 25, 1985 Vol IL that is great. We do not care. HR. SPEAICER: Order, please! Order, please! HR. HARSHALL: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAICER: Order, please! The bon. the President of the Council. HR. HARSHALL: Hr.

Speaker, there are certain proceedings in any House, and the bon. gentleman got up and put three very sensible petitions on behalf of constituents. He bas made his point from the point of view of petitions, now let us not have the House sullied by the bon. gentleman on the opposite side making small political points but getting up and saying, "We will inject a resolution to do this and that." I think we should leave it to the petitions and the proceedings. HR. 'tULIC: Do not be so silly. HR. HARSHALL: Do not be so confrontational all the time.

On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole, Hr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole HR. CHAIRMAB (Greening.): Order, please! HR. TULIC: Hr. Chairman. HR. CHAIRHAH: The bon. the member for Fogo. lto. 39 R2078

HR. TULK: There is a couple of questions I want to ask the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). If he answers them. I can assure him that '1ft! will pass this bill rather quickly, but if they want to get nasty over there again, like the Gove1."111Deftt. House Leader (ltr. Marshall) just. got about a resolution tbat his own member bad asked for. then '1ft! are in trouble. That is all there is to it. 'rhe question to the Minister of Finance relates to a number of fish plants in this Province that are owned by the government. I pointed this out to him last week.

I have now got a copy of a general form of the leases that are put by the provincial government. lly question to him is there are a number of fish plants in the Province that are owned by the government and leased to private fish companies - Alii HOB. MEMBER: You do not want to talk about that. HR. TULK: But I got to see if the Minister of Finance wants to. He wants some advice and look at the source he bas gone to. \lould the ltinist.er of Finance t.ell us how many fish plants in this Province are - I suppose the Minister of Fisheries (Hr.

Rideout) bad better answer this - how many fish plants are owned by the government leased to private enterprise? What are the kind of conditions that those people are allowed to , hold onto their leases and still not produce any product for this Province? I refer. specifically, to a plan~. I believe, Which is in L2079 June 25, 1985 Vol XL St.. Barbe and I think there is one in Belleoram, in the district of Fortune - Hermitage. In Hawkes Bay. I understand there is a plant owned by Parson's Pond Seafoods Limited.

We are guaranteeing them certain funds under this bill. but I understand they have paid their lease up to the end of June -this year and they are telling other fish companies and the people of that ccmm.mity that want to come in and start start producing fish, which would keep sixty jobs going, -- - a pUmt that the federal government. I believe through converting a plainer mill, put $300.000 into the conversion so that the people of Hawkes Bay would have an industry, I understand that the Parson • s Pond Seafoods Limited. run by, I believe, a good Tory - was he the campaign manager for the Tory party in St.

Barbe? - I understand he has now got a hold on that plant and he refuses to let go unless the provincial government pays him $26,000, and then he gets out of the lease. I understand, that all he has to do - the Minister of Fisheries is better able to answer this I am sure than the Care Bear - as long as that fellow pays up the lease then he is entitled to hold tbat plant up.

Is that the ease, that be is entitled to hold that plant up from producing fish even though the community, the town council, I am told by everybody in that area, and the people in that area, the fishermens• committees and so on, have another two people who are willing to come in and take over the plant? Yet, they are being prevented from doing this because Parson's Pond Seafoods Limited have a lease on the property and all they have to do, I understand, is go in and say it is not economically viable. pay up their No. 39 R2079

lease and t.ben. t.bey 'keep t.be plant. for another year. '!he point. I was 11111'kin& t.o t.be ltinist.er of Finance (Dr. Collins) last. week when t.be ltinist.er of Fisheries (Hr. Rideout.) was away was t.bat. t.bat seems despieable, it seems t.errible that. that. is allowed to happened when we have sixt.y jobs on the line, when we have a plant closed down that the people of Hawkes Bay went. and literally worked their hands almost to the bone to get. converted from a plainer mill when Bowat.er llo. 1 machine closed down.

They used pure init.iative, sixt.y jobs on the line, yet., I understand t.hat. this individual t.hat. owns Parson's Pond Seafoods Limited has been permitted, at. least. to this point., to keep that plant closed and all he bas to do is pay his lease. Perhaps t.he ltinist.er of Fisheries would answer, we may get. some sensible answers which we would not. get. from t.he ltinist.er of Finance. HR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Chairman. HR. CHAIRIWI (Greening,): The bon. the ltinister of Fisheries. HR. RIDEOUT: Hr.

Chairman, in the case of Parson's Pond Seafoods Limited everything is not quite the way it was described by the bon. gentleman.

There is some equipment in that building that the people that he mentioned owned, but. the department has been in touch with t.he present. operators, and we have been informed that. they are prepared - in fact, if they were not. prepared there were other t.hings we could do, but we hope t.bat. we could do it cooperatively first., or try the cooperative L2080 June 2S, 1985 Vol XL approach first. - but. we have been informed t.hat. the present. operat.or is prepared t.o move out. and t.hat. t.here is anot.her operator who is prepared t.o move in.

Uow, in the overall general question raised by the bon. gentleman on the conditions of leases, take the Belleoram situation for example, that is another good one. That lease, as I understand it, is paid a year in advance, it runs out somet.ime the latter part. of this summer, it. was paid last. SUmmer.

Again, I have inst.ruct.ed the officials in my department. to sit down wi t.h t.he present. lease holders and find some way, providing we got somebody to go in there, if we got nobody to go in t.here then t.he whole t.hin& is academic, but if we could find somebody to go in there, then find a way t.o get out. of that. lease arrangement. with, in this ease Icht.bus, or in the other ease, Parson's Pond Seafoods. So, in the ease of Hawkes Bay I think we have arrived at that. state now where the present owners will be moving out, provided there is another operator to go in there. HR. FUREY: Hr. Chairman. HR.

CHAIRMAH: The bon. the member for St.. Barbe. MR. FUREY: It seems that there are two companies who wish to move in. I am told by the mayor that. there is an American company that wants to do a salt. fish product, which is fairly labour intensive, and, also, that. a SWedish company bas been looking at. a fresh fish processing operation. The llo. 39 R2080

minister will remember I Wt"Ote him on April 26th. and be wrote me back to tell me that be bad his officials were holding discussions with the parties. Are you saying now that. they have reac'hed a satisfactory conclusion? HR. RIDEOUT: That. is the information I have. HR. I"UREY: Okay. The mayor and his town council infot"me4 me that. in order for Parsons Pond Seafoods to withdraw ft"OIIl these premises. they would want to recover their eapit.al in.vest:ment of $26,000 to $30,000. I directed a letter to your deputy minister outlining that. just recently.

What I want to ask the minister is bow on the one band can we back a guaranteed loan of $40,000 to a company that bas really delayed the creation of sixty jobs since the beginning of June and. on the other band, pass over the capital investment that they are asking to be recovered from government. ~ld you like to address that for a ltlitwte or so? HR. RIDEOUT: ltr. Cba irman. HR. CHAIRHAlt (Greening): The bon. Kinister of Fisheries. HR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Chairman, I will have to get some details on the particular question the bon. gentleman raised.

But my understanding of the situation after lunch today was that there bad been an agreement reached between the operator that they would move out, provided there was somebody else Who could move in. I do not know the details on the capital, What L2081 June 25, 1985 Vol XL they want as a result. , If they invested some money there and if we bad a guarantee on it, we would perhaps have first charge on some of their assets. These are normal conditions that we have in tbe guarantees.

On the question of the company that is interested in producing salt fish, that is a different matter because there would have to be some arrangement worked out with the Canadian Saltfisb Corporation, as the bon. gentleman mi&ht be aware. The only people vbo are allowed to produce salt fish in llewfoundland and on the Borth shore of Quebec are people Who have some kind of a licensing arrangement through the Canadian Saltfisb Corporation. A Swedish company, if they are interested in producing fresh fish, well that is a different matter. There is already a processing license in place for the facility.

But the latest information I bad just before coming to the House today was that an agreement had been reached. I will try to get more details for the member and let biln have them as soon as I ean get it. HR. FUREY: Hr. Speaker. HR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The bon. member for St. Barbe. HR. I'UREY: I appreciate that Hr. Kinister. Hr. Chairman, just on one other point, an arrangement has been worked out in this particular case but the minister alluded to the fact that bad an arrangement not been able to be reached, be would have bad other measures or other options to break this lease. No. 39 R2081

:.1 There are other cases where this happened so could elaborate on bow you could break that lease. Hll. RIDEOUT: 111.". Chairman. HR. CHAIBHAH: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. HR. RIDEOUT: 111.". Chairman, obviously we try a nice approach first and we sit down and discuss with those people, if we have somebody waitin& on the doorstep. If we do not, there is no point. I mean if you have not got an operator, then there is no point. MR. FUREY: But we have bad an operator for two months now. HR.

RIDEOUT: ~e try to negotiate with them and if they have some assets tied up in the building we try to work out some arrangement there. Of course, the ultimate authority is the processing license and the license to purchase fish, a buyer• s license which they would have. Both licenses they would have to have from our department. So, we do have some flexibility in that regard and we have, over the years as I understand it, used that flexibility when we thought it was necessary for us to do so. HR. FUREY: Hr. Chairman. HR. CHAIBHAN: The bon. member for St. Barbe. HR. FUREY: 111.".

Chairman, I do welcome the news that finally this lease has been dealt with and that we may create these sixty jobs. 1.2082 June 2S. '1985 Vol XL As you are aware. CBC covered the Hawke's Bay situation a couple of nights ago and durin& the interview with the 11ayor. town council and the fish plant workers in this building made reference to the fact that the Royal Commission on Unemployment had been through there as well and they thought it was pretty despicable that two months ago we could have had people cutting on these lines and working in an area where there is 77 per cent unemployment.

I am not sure of the youth figures. Those will come across my desk next ~ek. But amongst the adult population there is 77 per cent unemployment]oyment. I welcome that news. I just feel rather sad that we have all lmown about it some two months ago and we could not bave acted in a more urgent manner on it. Thank you. HR. PATTERSON: Where was the member all this time? HR. FUREY: Two months ago I made representation. HR. EFFORD: Hr. Chairman. HR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The bon. member for Port de Grave. HR. EFFORD: 111.". Chairman, a question for the bon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins).

On the situation on the guaranteed loans for . small operators, I have a situation where an operator in my district is finding it very difficult to keep his pay roll and, at the same time, purchase fish and pay the fishermen with the guaranteed loan that be received from the government. That situation is where he got a $50,000 one and be Uo. 39 R2082

needed a $100,000. The only way that be could survive this year and keep the payroll going and pay for fish was to get that $100,000. He is employing up to approximately forty-eight people which in a small comnunity that is a great number of people. He is finding it very difficult now to stay in operation. 'I wuu ld like t.o ask t.be ltinist.er of Finance why his operating loan guarantee could not be increased to noo.ooo. Ali HOlt. ltEMBER: Are you at. liberty to tell the company's name? HR. EFFORD: Yes. The company• s name is George Dawe & Son of Port de Grave, a very reputable company for over 100years. DR.

COLL'IltS: ltr. Chairman. HR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLiltS: ltr. Chairman, if that is schedule. I am just. wondering on this particular KR. EFFORD: Yes it is. DR. COLLINS: Which one is it, do you lmow? HR. EFFORD: You have that. Guarantee Act.. there. DR. COLLINS: there, the Loan It. is definitely Yes it. is, you are right.. It. is item 15. ltr. Chairman, there was a loan L2083 June 25, 1985 Vol XL guarantee entered into there for $50,000.

It. was due to expire at the end of Karch and that was extended to the end of Hay, 1985, but that was really to get in certain information that we required to just access the current situation. Having got in that information it was then extended to the March of next year I t.bink it was or Karch or April of next year. llow, ltr. Chairman, that particular firm is really an agent. of the Saltfisb Corporation and the Saltfisb Corporation extends certain credit in anticipation of the receipt of the supplies from the company. OUr assessment was that the $50,000 guarantee should suffice to cover situation.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, we do have to get security where we feel it is available, and I do not believe that in this particular case there was sufficient security to go much beyond that. 'Ihe assets that the company had available to put up as security would not allow us to extend beyond that. So, all I can say to the bon. member is that our assessment was that $50,000 should do it and that would keep them within our guidelines. If the company feels, there are grounds for appeal. I do not believe we have heard an appeal from the company, at least it has not been brought to my attention.

If the bon. '~\'ember feels that there are grounds for appeal as to the amount. I am sure if he passed that on and bad the proper application made we would be glad to assess it again. But, at this date all I can say is that from the information made No. 39 R2083

available to us we thought that $50,000 should allow them to continue operatin& and that that was the 1t1axi.uum that their security would allow. HR. EFFORD: Hr. Chairman. HR. CHAIRlW.t (Greening,): The bon. member for Port de Grave. HR. En'ORD: The whole point of the situation is that $50,000 certainly is not enough to keep a pay roll going in this day and age When you are talking about probably. a maxinum capacity of thirty to fifty people Which have to be paid every week and. at the same time. pay fishermen on a weekly basis for their fish.

I realize that probably they have not made an appeal but they did ask me to look into the situation. Probably I could ask the Minister of Fisheries (Hr. Rideout) • due to the fact of the situation of the low unemployment right now in the rural areas and especially in my district, if I Mmt back to the people of this company and asked them to make an appeal for an extra $50,000, could the Hinister of Fisheries give me some guarantee that be will certainly take the matter into consideration and look into it? Work wi tb the Hinister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) and give me some sort of an answer. that we probably could expect to get an extra $50,000 loan guarantee for them? HR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Chairman. HR. CHAIBMAB (Greening: The bon. Hinister of Fisheries. 1.2084 June 25, 1985 Vol XL HR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Chairman, let me tell the bon. gentleman that there is a process in place between the Department of Fisheries, the Department of Fi.nanee, and the Department of Development. There is a committee of officials that analyse all requests that we get for working capital loan guarantees.

I gather, from What the bon. gentleman has said. there was a request to increase the amount but that was not done. If the company wishes to make another request, we will certainly have the committee of officials look at it. I could not prejudge or give him any guarantee of What decision Cabinet may make. That is more than my coat is worth and more than all our coats are worth singularly. That bas to be done collectively.

But we certainly will and certainly do entertain requests from any proven operator in the Province and we have a conunittee of officials that examine the requests and then they send a paper to Cabinet and Cabinet will 1t1ake a decision. If the company wishes to go through that route, then we will certainly do that for them, Hr. Chairman. HR. TULK: Hr. Speaker. HR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The bon. member for Fogo. HR. TULK: I have a couple of more questions before our questions are finished on this bill and they are for the Hinister of Fisheries (Hr. Rideout).

They have to do, I think, somewhat with the Loan and Guarantee Act. I do not have the Act in front of Ho. 39 R2084

,. but • 'I think. we al."e guaranteeing to Fishery Products 'International something over $7 million in this bill. Will the minister will recall that under the 1."eStructuring agreement. there was a

schedule attached to the restructuring agreement called

Schedule A in which there was a list of fishing companies and plants that were to be included under FP'I. 'I would like to ask the mi.nister if there are any of those plants that are nov closed. if there are any of them that. are in danger of closing. and just what the problem. is? 'I would also like to ask him about one other thing and that is the River Port scallop fleet.. As part of the restructuring agreement. the River Port scallop fleet were, 'I understand. to become part of the lle.wfoundland fishery and that has not happened.

He might. want to go on record as telling the House why indeed that did not. happen. 'It is no wonder to me, to be quite frank with you, Hr. Chairman, that we are still in the process of guarant.~eing funds to Fishery Products International. We have been almost three years in this Province since the restructuring agreement. took place, and yet we still do not have a business plan from Fishery Products 'International. 'I do not. believe there bas been a business plan, but. When can we expect t.bat. business plan to be place?

Has the minister had any indication {1."'1J11l l'ishe1.'7 Products International that they are going to be regarding some of the fish plants that are listed in the restructuring agreement. as "social plants" and have they asked the provincial government. to take over any of those plants and to pay the burden of those plants or asked L2085 June 25, 1985 Vol IL the federal or provincial government. to do it? The extra funding that FPI has been demanding in the past from the provincial government, is FPI going to get that?

Does be have any indication of just bow much they are asking for in their business plan when they submit it.? Are they going to get the funding they are asking for? When can we expect. the business plan and what are the ramifications of it? HR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Chairman. HR. CHAI'RlWI (Greening) : The bon. Minister of Fisheries. HR. RIDEOUT: I will try to answer the questions as best I can. Number one, 'I do not have the restructuring agreement before me so I do not remember all the plants, but if the bon. gentleman wants to ask a specific question about a specific plant then I could try and answer any question.

I would have to see the list because I do not remember them all off the top of my bead. Hr. Chairman, first of all it is not quite fair for the bon. gentleman to say that the restructed FPI has been in existence for a couple of years and there still bas not. been a business plan. As the bon. gentleman 1mows it. bas only been five or six months that both shareholders of FPI finally agreed on a senior management team. And that senior management team-HR. TULK: I was talking about since the tio. 39 R2085

agreement was signed. HR. RIDE011r: Yes, that part of it is eorrect. 'What I wanted to point out to the bon. gentleman that the senior management team, Hr. Youn&. Hr. Wells, and Hr. Borris, those people who have been put in place. on the top of !'PI have only been in place for the last five or six months. In the interim they did develop an interim business plan. It is my understandin&. Hr. Chairman, that their final five year business plan will be ready for submission to both shareholders by the end of August, I believe it is. I stand to be corrected on that.

I do not want to be too definitive in what I am sayin& here. But I lmow that it is within the next month or so. and I believe it is due to be presented to the shareholders by the end of August. The other part of the bon. gentleman's question: Have FPI come to us yet and asked us to make any moves on the social plants? 11o, Hr. Chairman, there bas not been any indication from them on that regard yet. We fully expect that that part of the scenario will be addressed When they present their five year business plan to us. But, they bave not as yet, for example, come and said, you lmow, this plant is a social plant.

HR. TULIC.: Any indication at all? HR. RIDEOUT: 11o. As a matter of fact, I can say this to the bon. gentleman, Hr. Chairman, there may be some pleasant surprises in what was thought to be social plants, vis-a-vis what may end up in L2086 June 2S. 1. 985 Vol IL social plants. lm. TULIC.: I hope so. lm. RIDEOUT: We are hopeful that that will happen as well just as be is. So it is not all black and white. It is not all cut and dry, but they have_not come yet and asked us to kick in the mechanism in the - a&reenent that would kick in if that kind of thin& were to happen. lm. TULIC.: ltr. Chairman. HR.

CHAIBHAN (Greening): The bon. the member for Fogo. HR. TULIC.: Hr. Chairman, I have just one more question for the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Hr. Rideout). He did not get to my plants, you may get to those now When I ask this one. I have just one more question to ask the minister and he bas my copy of the restructurin& agreement now. so I will just have to go by memory.

I understand tbat the Board of Directors of !'PI, I think, there were supposed to be in his great social compact that was bearlded at the time by both the provincial and federal governments, there was supposed to be a representative of the Fishermen's Union - one person out of eleven, I believe - to sit on the Board of Directors of Fisheries Products International. Let me ask the minister bas that taken place? Do we now have a representative of the Fishermen • s union or indeed a representative of the fishermen sitting on the Board of Directors?

If not, perhaps he can tell us ~o that position has been filled by? 110. 39 R2086

Or if it. is goin& t.o be filled? 'What. compact. bas been made with the Fishermen's Union to see that that person is put in place? What bas been their reaction and so on? Could be just address that whole scene, of the one person from the Fishermen's Union sitting on the Board of Directors? About one out of eleven, I think. MR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Chairman. MR. CHAIBlWI (Greenin&): The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOU"r: Kr. Chairman, on that point, I want to be rather careful, because 1. do not. lmov - 1. have tried to read all of the briefin& notes on !'PI over the last couple of Dmtbs.

But. it is 1Q' understand in& that the Fishermen • s Union choose not to participate in the social compact. provisions that were built. into the restructurin& agreement. I do not know to any great detail why they may not have decided to participate. It is my understanding that the option for them to do so is still there, if they so wish. I have bad some meetiqs with Hr. Cashin and the executive of the Union, and it is not sometbin& as I read it that they are really, you know, uptight about or very interested in at this particular point in time, perhaps, some further distance down the road they may very well be.

But it is my understanding that up to this point in time they have not. exercised their option to participate and to name somebody to the Board. I do not think there is any representative of the Fisbermea • s Union on the Board of Directors of 'P'P1. at. this time. L2087 June 25, 1985 Vol XL Bow to the bon. gentleman's earlier question about. plants that are open~ 1. can see from the list there, for example, that 'J:Williqate is not open but that is because of ice conditions, at the present time. MR. TULK: I am just saying barring all those circumstances. MR. RIDEOUT: Barring all of those circumstances. St..

Lawrence I am very pleased to tell the bon. gentleman opened yesterday, it started processing fish that they were buying from the inshore fishermen in that area. Of course, Bide Arm and Englee still have problems with ice conditions like most. of us have along the Bortheast. Coast. Bonavista is okay. It is operating. Gaultois. MR. TULK: What ones are not? If there are any? Just go through those that there might not be. MR. RIDEOUT: Bow that St. Lawrence opened yesterday, of course, St.. Anthony is not open yet. MR. TULK: What about Charleston? HR. RIDEOUT: Pardon? HR. TULK: Charleston? HR.

RIDEOUT: Charleston will be operated by FPI this year. MR. TULK: It will? MR. RIDEOUT: Ito. 39 112087

Yes, they are trucking fish into St. Anthony. That is right. Dildo is going to be processing caplin, I understand. So they are in various stages of open or not open. I guess What the bon. gentleman is looking for, is there any conscious decision made by FPI to close any of the plants that were listed here. At the present ti:rle, with tbe absence of a business plan, there is no such conscious decision that I am aware of .. 1Ul. 'I'ULK: Hr. Chairman. 1Ul. CHAIR14Alf (Greening,): The bon. the member for Fogo. 1Ul. TULK: Hr. Chairman, one more question for the minister.

I meant to ask him today in Question Period to be quite frank with you, and it is going to be a very simple question. The caplin fishery which will affect bow well this restructuring bill turns the Loan and Guarantee this year turns out. out Act or for The caplin fishery, as the lllinister is aware, tbere seems to be some problem. The Processors Association, I understand, are saying that they will not catch eaplin this year until they get a certain price, until they have a negotiated price that is satisfactory to their fishermen.

I also understand from some fishermen that I talked to in Port de Grave yesterday who comes from the Tlri.llingate area and some fishermen who are in Harbour Grace from my own district, the Fogo area, that unless something happens within the next couple of days to see those negotiations concluded then there is going to L2088 June 25, 1985 Vol XL be no caplin fishery this year. Probably one of the biggest profit-making fish products that we have for plant owners, for private owners even, are caplin.

I think it is no secret that many of the private fish companies, especially the independents in this Province last year survived because they did well in the cap lin fishery. So the question for tbe Minister of 'Fisheries (ltr. Rideout) is can be .¥ · -Under this bill, give us -a- -status report on just Where that eaplin fishery is, that whole process of negotiation, at this time? 1Ul. RIDEOUT: Hr. Chairman. HR. CHAIRHAH (Greening): The bon. Minister of Fisheries. HR. RIDEOUT: Yes, Hr. Chairman, most everything that the bon. gentleman said is very, very true. There is no doubt about that.

It is very important that there be an agreement between the association and the Japanese buyers on caplin. Particularly independent plants. · as be indicated, their feasability, their viability, very ltUCh revolves around Whether or not they can make those few extra good dollars off the caplin fishery. I have been advised by my officials just before coming to the House for Question Period that there is movement continuing, dialogue is continuing - HR. TULIC.: You knew I was going to ask it! HR. RIDEOUT: I try . to keep one step ahead of you 'Beaton' boy.

But I have been advised that there is continuing Ho. 39 R2088

to be dialoaue anm~& the assoc.iation members themselves and we are monitoring the situation very closely. Anything that we ean do, as we have already told tbe association people, to assist tbem, then we will. So we are staying on top of it. I do not want to give too much detail about the negotiations at the present time because, as I understand it, they have reached a very sensitive stage and we are optimistic that an agreement satisfactory to the producers and to the buyers can be reached.

There is still 1110vement and we are hopeful that an agreement ean be put in place so that the dark side of the coin that the bon. gentleman just referred to and that we lmow is there, bopefu lly. does become reality. MR. CALLAll: ltr. Cba irman. MR. CHAIHHAH (Greening,): The bon. member for Bellewe. HR. CALLAN: ltr. Chairman, on Thursday and Friday of last week, when the bon. Minister of Fisheries (Hr. Rideout) was away attending to affairs of the Province, I am sure, I raised a couple of matters which the Minister of Fisheries is very well acquainted.

He is very well acquainted. either through correspondence, and I am sure that across tbe minister's desk this 1110rning, if not Friday, was a letter from the Upper Trinity South Regional Development Association, addressed to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Jolm Collins) and it says, .. As a follow-up to the meeting with you and the bon. Tom Rideout concerning -plant closures in the Upper Trinity south region, we are L2089 June 25, 1985 Vol XL declaring our area economically depressed." It is a disaster area, Hr. Chairman. HR. SIMMS: Who represents that area? HR. CALLAN: The bon.

James Reid represents a lot of it and the bon. member for Bellevue represents another part of it, Hr. Chairman. Hr. Chairman, the Minister of Fisheries who is an honourable man, not in title alone, is very well acquainted with the problems of that area because it was on Hay 27 that the bon. ltinister of Fisheries. with his colleague the Minister of Finance. met in the Collective Bargaining Room downstairs with a large delegation representing that area, a group from Hearts Desire which, of course, is in Trinity - Bay de Verde district provincially. HR. SIHHS: (Inaudible). HR.

CALLAN: No, be never did and be never will. The Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Hr. Simms) is trying to sidetrack me. Hr. Chairman. I am onto a very serious matter here. I know that the Minister of Fisheries and/or the Minister of Finance may both want to respond. on Thursday - HR. SIMHS: (Inaudible). HR. CALLAN: You could not even put a forest resource road into Broad Cove. They have been waiting for years. HR. SIMMS: No. 39 R2089

They never asked me about it. KR. CHAIRHAll (Greening,): Order, please! KR. CALLAN: Hr. Chairman, I talked on Thursday and Friday about the former Carino employees. \1e were talking here, Hr. Chairman, on Bill 23, about fish plants and we are talking about. t.be problem areas around t.he Province. It. is vide-ransin&- 'l'be co-ordillat.or of t.be Upper Trinity South Re&ional Development Association, on behalf of tbe people tbat be represents as co-ordinator, is c!eclarlng this area an economically depressed area of the Province and they are presently preparing a list of the unemployed.

We know about the twenty-five former employees at Carino. The former Quictc Freeze plant in South Dildo, the minister knows about these because they were here on Hay 27 and met. with tbe minister and the Minister of Finance and ourselves. All ROll. MEMBER: That place has changed its name. ltR. CALLAN: llo, just Dildo has changed its name. \1e are t.a lking about. South Dildo. That is where the carlno plant is, where llewfoundland Quick l'1:'ee%e is and the Pur 'Farmers Co-operative. The member for Bonavista North (Hr.

Lush) earlier talked about sa bnon licenses being part of the culture and the heritage of older people. Some of these plants, like the Fur Farmers Co-operative Plant that was out there when the mink ranching was in its bey day, when the pot head Whales were L2090 June 25, 1985 Vol IL driven ashore and slaughtered and the meat being used for mink feed - All ROll. MEMBER: Is this the same association that operates the trout farm? ltR.

CALLAli: Yes, the very same one that operates tbe trout farm, the Upper Trinity South Regional Development Association, Kay Jerrett, co-orindator. ------ - J 'l'bey are all &ood Tories. They go to Liberal rallies trying to elect the weaker Liberal candidate, but that game is played all over. They attended Dave Rooney• s nominating meetings, voted for Dave Rooney because they 'knew that he would be the weaker of one or two candidates. The gentleman Hr. Ray Jerrett, co-ordinator, on June 17, the same day that be wrote a letter to the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) here in this Province, talking about the disaster area, be also wrote a letter to Captain Morrissey Johnson, and, of course, he copied me and he copied the Provincial Minister of 'Fisheries (Hr. Morgan) on his letters, and also the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Hr. Reid). He talks here, Hr. Chairman, be says, "I realize that you are well aware," I &uess Captain Jobnson is well aware. I wrote the bon. !'lora MacDonald myself on March 21, that was three months ago on Friday past, asking that a make work programme be made available for these people, and she said no.

It took her three paragraphs to say it, but she said no, no money. "I realize, •• he says, "that you are well aware of the desperate tto. 39 K.2090

aitQ•tion in the Upper Trinity South area with regan to the high U'llellt' loJml!!llt. "'ou may say that ~~e are no different from other areas., however, we believe our situation is WO't"Se due to tbe faet that four plants have closed. three fishing and one sealing, the Carino seal pelt plant, and the crab plant in Hants Harbour may operate on a smaller seale this year. This plant takes in many worke't"S from our area as well." And so Hr. Ray Jerrett goes on in his letter of June 17. 'I am wondering, Hr. Chairman, obviously there is no help forthcoming from the federal government, obviously.

That should be obvious after three months of wait and see, do nothing and so on on behalf of the bon. !'lora ltacDonald and on behalf of the member, captain Morrissey Jolmson, who represents all of that area in his federal constituency. Since there is nothin& done, ltr. Chairman, it llJist be obvious to 1tr. by Jerret.t and to everybody the federal government is not prepared to help. So 'I am asking the Minister of Fisheries (Hr. Rideout), and/or the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins), what is this government prepared to do? 'I mean to talk about a few caplin coming ashore next week when some of these people will get two, three, perhaps four weeks work is not enough. 'In any event, it will not help the Carino workers. They will not get jobs in these plants. They are specialists. You see, Kr.

Chairman, 'I do not know why, there was not one llll!lltion made of tbe fact in '!be Evenin& 'l'elesram, in the weekend edition, that there was somebody L2091 June 25, 1985 Vol II. in this Le&islature talking about the plight of these twenty-five eq~loyees. 'I do not want it for my own publicity. 'I have copies of Hansard wbieh I will be sending t.o each and every one of these twenty-five employees to prove to them that I am speaking up on their behalf, and that I asked for the resignation of the federal member.

But 'l'be Evenin& 'l'elesram. there was not one word mentioned made of the faet that during the debate on Friday morning that this topic eame up. There was not one mention made of the fact that 'I also talked about that Friday, June 21, was the day on which we were supposed to have an announcement from the Premier, or the Minister of Finance, about the future of Come By Cbance. The bids closed on Hay 21, and Petro canada said at that time that they would examine the bids for a month and then come out