VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. TUESDAY, APRIL 26, 1983. NO. 27

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1381 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please. JV - 1 Before we begin today's proceedings,it is a distinct pleasure for me to welcome to the Speaker's Gallery today Dr. Wolfram, the Austrian Ambassador to Canada,who is visiting Newfoundland as part of her official visit to the Atlantic Provinces. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. The han. the Premier. Mr. Speaker I wish to apprise this han.

House and provide details of the recent initiatives taken by the Government as it relates to the ongoing dispute between the Government and the Newfoundland Teachers' Association.

I have put together,for the benefit of han. members opposite and all members on this side of the House,the last pieces of documentations starting with Friday's compromise proposal to the NTA 1our statement during the week-end concerning it 1 and our statement of this morning 1as well as a letter to the President of the Newfoundland Teachers' Association requesting that the new proposal that was put on the table on Friday be subjected to the vote of the membership of the Newfoundland Teachers' Association.So I table that for hon._members 1Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I do not know when this government is going to stop responding. It seems to be a consistent method of this go vernment to car :y 3003

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1381 JV - 2 MR. LUSH: on negotiations in public~ bargaining across the floor of the House, Mr. Speaker, and calling press conferences before statements are presented to the House, calling a press conference and then coming and making the presentation to the members here. Mr. Speaker, it is a deplorable way to carry on negotiations and I certainly hope that this method of carrying on negotiations in public will cease and that the Premier will see to it that both sides are at the bargaining table Mr.

Speaker 1 where these negotiations should be carried on.The NTA made a counteroffer to the Premier on the week-end that certainly should have provided basis for negotiations 1 but instead of that we still see the Premier carrying on games and making a real mockery out of the collective bargaining process. That is where it has to be resolved Mr.

Speaker, at the bargaining table,and this is what we should do~ This is the expeditious way to clear up this matter, it is the proper way to clear up this matter, it is the only peaceful and harmonious way to do it and that is to ensure that the full process of the collective bargaining act is applied in this particular case. These public negotiations, Mr. Speaker,are doing nothing other than aggravating feelings and making parents uneasy.

Let us get down to the real nub ~f this, get students back to the school, the teachers back to the school by carrying out the full process of the Collective bargaining act. 3004

April 26, 1983 Tape No . .L382 W:1 - 1 ORAL QUES'TI'ONS : MR. SPEAKER '(Rus :se:ll): The hon. member for Torngat Moun'Eains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my ques.tion is to the Premier. It is indeed unfortunate that drastic action .,. has been taken by the . Conne River Micmac Band Council in an attempt to resolve a dispute with the provincial government over funding for projects in the Community. It is in fact, Mr. Speaker, a terrible condition.

It seems to us that the provincial government has imposed terms and conditions that were not part of the original agreement signed by the provincial and the federal governments. I would like to make one final appeal to the Premier and ask him would he review this matter quickly to determine if there would be any way out before a human life is lost? MR. SPE 'AKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKF0RD: Mr. Speaker, the terms and ... -. -....... conditions · that are applied to the disbursement' of funds was agreed upon _ by __ both ~evels of government.

Both the federal · and the provincial government agree on these terms and conditions because both governments have to live under terms and conditions 1 imposed by legislatures,that we must be accountable for the money that we spend. This morning the minister and myself have been discussing the matter to see if we can resolve the situation and I understand that our officials now, through the minister's department, will be meeting with ~ the representatives of the Conne River Band Council at four o'clock to further discuss the matter to see if we can resolve it.

But for the hon. member to say that we are imposing unfair and unreasonable and unusual conditions on ··-· -- the . disburselrent of these funds is not true. Both governments 3005

Apri.J. 26, 1983 Tape No. 1382 Nt-1 - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : agree with these co nditions . They are set down because governmen~ has a responsibilLty , to the hon. member and to thi.s Legislature,to ensure that the monies that are spent are accounted for, and we do that for all funds that are disbursed in various prog rammes to various groups throughout the Province. MR. SP~AKER (Russell): The hon. member for Torngat Mountains . MR . WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, on July 4, 1981 there \vas an agreement signed beb'ieen canada and Nel•lfoundland' s Native people of Labrador and of the Conne River Band Council in Conne River and this agreement contained conditions attached to the disbursement of funds. Could I ask the Premier to lay upon the table of this House the extra conditions that the Department of Rural, Aqricultural and Northern Development has put to the disbursement of those funds? MR. NEARY: Over and above what is in the agree ment . 300 6

April 26,1983 Tape No. 1383 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Russell ) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not see any problem in that, Mr. Speaker. We can provide that for the hon. member.

I think it was last year there were certain funds spent in Conne River that were not spent according to the way they were supposed to be spent.I can see the hon. member getting up in this House 1 when an Auditor General's Report comes out lashing into the government, saying , 'How come you as a government did not protect legislatively the position of the taxpayer by insuring that these funds were spent wisely?' . - --· So the hon. member cannot have his cake and eat ·it too. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If the hon. member wants to see the additional conditions, no problem.

These have been agreed to by the federal government as well as ourselves 1 and it is a method the government uses to protect itself so that we are responsible to this legislature. I mean 1 that is not to much to ask, that we must be responsible.Otherwise, as I say, the Leader of the Opposition could get up and accuse the government of mismanaging the taxpayers' funds.

We do not want to be exposed to that accusation and we are trying in every place and every department to ensure that we are living up to the spirit and the letter of all the legislation that is in place to ensure that we are being accountable to the people of this Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.member for Torngat Mountains. MR.WARREN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Premier. I think this is the fifth day that we have eleven individuals on a hunger strike in this Province. They are on a hunger strike, Mr.Speaker, because the Premier cannot negotiate.

That is the whole thing: He cannot negotiate with Ottawa, he cannot negotiate with the teachers and now he cannot negotiate with a small community in the Province. 3007

April 26,1983 Tape No. 1383 ah-2 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.Warren) is proceeding to make a speech. He should ask a question. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the hon. member had a question there. MR.WARREN: I am not finished. So, Mr. Speaker, the Premier cannot negotiate on anything. Apparently the Department of Rural Development is havin~ a meeting at four o'clock this afternoon with this Band Council, would the Premier personally take it upon himself to try to sit down and negotiate with a group of people in this Province?

And if he does not he is going to be held responsible for any loss of life in this instance. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well , Mr. Speaker, the hon. member can charge me with being responsible for whatever he likes· I am quite aware of what I am responsible for and what I am not,and I do not think that is normally the spirit in which the hon. member asks questions. The hon. member has been a very responsible member of this House and I am surprised that today he would make this kind of allegation,personally against me or against any member of this House.

I think it is unfortunate that the hon. member would take that kind of attitude today and I am sorry that he has so done. 3008

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1384 MJ - 1 PRE~.UER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, as it comes to my personal negotiating ability or lack of it,I can only say to the hon. member that since 1979 this government has been successful in negotiating at the Long Harbour phosphorus plant to save the taxpayers of this Province $140 million to $150 million 1 we negotiated new power contracts with Bowaters and Abitibi-Price, and we negotiated new land ·-~-- ··- ·------ · ~ - . tenure systems with Bowaters and Abitibi-Price people.

The Mineral Act was changed. fle negotiated with the mining companies ,~.,hen I was ].1inister of Mines and Energy and since 1 a 400 per cent increase in the amount of mineral revenue that comes into the Treasury of this Province. So if the hon. rnsnber wants to try to make comparisons and there are not apples and apples, he can go right ahead but the parallel is there. As far as the offshore goes, Mr. Speaker, I stand by our position that this Province will not sell out the offshore oil and gas resources in the same way as Nova Scotia has done.

We think we have a better case, we think that the same rule~ and regulations that apply to Alberta should apply to Newfoundland. We also believe it on hydro transmission, we also believe it on fishery. So, Mr. Speaker, I am not ashamed at all at the accusations that come to me either from the hon. member or from members of the NTA who try to accuse me on other matters to try to substantiate the issue that we are now in dispute with on them. I apologize to no one on that, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH; : • Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I do not know to whom I should direct this question now that the President of Treasury Board (Dr. Collins) has returned the Premier is making statements on education and the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) has been on the periphery. So I do not know 3009

April 26, 1983 Tape NO. 1384 MJ -1 MR. LUSH: who I should direct the question to, but we will give the President of Treasury Board (Dr. Collins) an opportunity to make some comments, we should inform him that nothing has changed since he has been away, we still have the government's ne\·1 approach to negotiation by public negotiations. Mr. Speaker, in view of the statement made today by the Premier, I wonder if the minister can indicate just what he thin~s this new approach by the Premier will now achieve this approach, Mr. Speaker, which is seeking to interfere with the internal operations of the NTA?

So I wonder if the minister can comment upon how he thinks this ne\·1 approach \vill expe.C.itio~.~ly solve the teacher's dispute? Just what does he think the press conference this morning will achieve, '----· -·--·· Mr. Speake.r, in terms of bringing the teacher dispute to an expeditious and satisfactory solution? 3010 ·-

April 26, 1983 Tape 1385 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, not much has changed in the two weeks, the same old involved questions, but I think I got the nub of what the hon. member was trying to get at. Hopefully what it will achieve is this~ · the NTA is a union but it is also a professional organization and I know something about professional organizations. Members of professional organizations like to make up their own minds. They like to see the issues, they like to make decisions themselves. That is typical of professional organizations.

So I hope that the initiative we took this morning will mean that the members of the NTA will study the new generous offer put forward by this government, these reasonable points we have put forward, and they will make up their own minds on it and then they will take a vote on it and tell their executive about their vote. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: Terra Nova. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the President of Treasury Board (Dr.

Collins) whether he thinks instead of playing games, instead of trying to do through the back door what they cannot do through the front door, instead of interfering with the internal process of the NTA, whether it would not be better for the government to allow the NTA the full process of collective bargaining and grant binding arbitration which they have requested, Mr. Speaker? Would not the government be better advised to grant the NTA binding arbitration to settle this dispute, a procedure, a process which they have been requesting for months now? 3011

April 26, 1983 Tape 1385 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, we have groups in the public sector, public employees, who have binding arbitration. We have the fire fighters, we have the police and that mechanism is open to them. Now, of course, there is another aspect of those groups. They do not have the right to strike. Perhaps I could ask the hon. member is he suggesting that the NTA should have binding arbitra­ tion bu·t should not have the right tQ stri.lce? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: The hQn. the member for Mr.

Speaker, I certainly did not get the drift of what the minister was saying, I do not know whether anyQne else did. 3012

April 26, 1983 Tape 1386 PK - 1 MR. LUSH: I do not know T~·hether he was saying the teachers were not allowed the process of binding arbitration or whether they were. Nobody sugqested that it was either/or, that they should be allowed binding arbitration or not allowed to strike. And I remind the minister this is not a strike- the minister was away and probably did not know - this is a teacher lockout. This is a lockout and not a strike. The minister is probably not aware that some days ago in this Hause the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) did say ~~a~ the teachers aad the right to binding arbitration.

Now is the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) saying they do not have that right? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The bon. !·~ini ster of Finance . DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I suggest the bon. member read the Teachers' Collective Bargaining Act, and that Bargaining Act lays out what is a strike and what is not a strike-at least it lays out what is a strike.

And the action taken by the teachers of this Province on the advice of the N.T.A. executive, I do not think many of the teachers ·-···--· of this Province knew this is what the Executive at the time was getting them into, but at least on the basis of what they voted on and what the N.T.A. Executive subsequently did, they 1 under the terms of that Act,did enter into a strike situation and there is no doubt about that. We have been very careful to get legal opinion that.

That legal opinion has not been seriously questioned, not in a way that it should be questioned if anybody had any real doubt about it, i.e., reference to the courts. From our point of view, and we are quite convinced on this on the best grounds available to us, there is a strike situation at present 3013

April 26, 1983 Tape 1386 PK - 2 DR . COLLINS: involving the teachers of this Province, the members of the N.T.A. Now on the question of binding arbitration, any group who requests of the employer , and the emp lo yer agrees,can have binding arbitration. An y two parties to a dispute,if both sides agree to bindi r.g arbitration they can have it . That is not confined to teachers~ anyone in this Province can have that . The teachers can have binding arbitration if both sides agree to it . We have not agreed to it and we have given our reasons for not agreeing to binding arbitration . This is a matter 3014

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1387 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: that should be settled through the collective bargaining process. We have been attempting since last August to have it settled through the collective bargaining process. I would remind the han. member that the negotiating process was terminated 1 and it was terminated in the most definitive manner you can terminate negotiations, that is by one side going on strike. And I would ask the han. member to consider which side went on strike, in other words, which side terminated negotiations? MR. LUSH: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : for Terra Nova.

MR. LUSH: Supplementary, the han. member Mr. Speaker, it would appear that this government certainly do not want to solve this situation because the one avenue now open is binding arbitration and the minister, by his own admission, is saying that the government will not agree to it. They will not agree to it, they will not agree to a measure that will satisfactorily solve this dispute. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, my final question to the minister is: I wonder whether the minister has reckoned, since he has been back in the Province, how much money the Province has now saved as a result of this teacher dispute?

My calculations come to somewhere around $14 million. Can the minister verify that figure 1 whether it is close to the amount that has been saved since the teachers have been locked out by the government? I think it has been eleven days and from the best sources that I can get I calculate that to be around $14 million which the Province has saved since this dispute started. Can the minister verify that figure? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. 3015

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1387 SD - 2 DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, in answering the hon. member's questions , it is difficult to kno\v where to start he makes so many erroneous statements during the aski.ng of the questions. There is not one way to terminate this dispute and the strike. There is more than one way and I have already indicated the best way. the best way from both sides of the fence - MR. LUSH: What is that? I did not hear that. DR.

COLLINS: -is for professional people in the membership of the NTA to look at the proposal tha.t government has put on the table, look at it dispassionately and sensibly, say, 'Is this a reasonable approach to take or is it not a reasonable approach to take?', 3016

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1388 NM - l DR. COLLINS: each member looking at it and then having tbeir say on what they see. MR. LUSH: The contract should be reasonable. DR. COLLINS: That is the best way and that is available . Now in regard to the saving of money, Mr. Speaker, when a group of workers voluntarily decide to go on strike 1.the employer clearly saves money. He does not have to pay these workers. This is not an unusual situation, one follows the other, it is a necessary thing that happens. We did not want to save money this way. We do not wish to save money this way.

Clearly if we wanted to save money this wa~which would be perfidious of us-we would never even dream of doing it- but if we wanted to do it we could have done it backin last August. We could have done it back October, last November, last Januany, last February. We would not have to wait until April to do .it. So, I mean, what the .hon. member is getting at is ridiculous of course. The point is that the money saved is not something that we wish to do. We want the students of this Province to continue their education.

I am a parent, I think the hon. member is probably a parent; he like I,and all the parents in this Province, want our children back in the school, and the only people who can put those children b~ck in school are the teachers of this Provincewho must look at the proposais we have on the table and determine if they are reasonable. If they feel themselves in the aggregate it is reasonable 1 our children can go back to school within a few days. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: As a member of the Legislature and a parent with two kids in school, I am also very anxious to get the children back in school and get the teachers back in the classrooms. But the way the government is going about it, Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that that is a long ways away. 3017

April 26, 1983 Tape No . 1388 NM- 2 MR. NEARY : I think the NTA President reguest .ed a blackout during any .mediation or any negotiations that may take place, and I think that is a reasonable suggestion , Hr. Speaker , would ch e hon. the Premier agree that from nO\Y' on when medi ation and negotiations are taking place 3018

April 26, 1983 Tape 1389 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: there will be a news blackout placed on the mediation or these negotiations? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, right now, Mr.

Speaker, there are not any negotiations,but we have been prepared right from the start to agree to not going public with the negotiations as they proceeded., It was the Presic.ent of the NTA and others who began to announce positions and to take positions publicly, which obviously, as a government that is elected by the people, we then had a responsibility to respondto and to give our point of view.and I do not think we could be asked to do less. ~~d when negotiations begin again we are quite prepared to accept any of those kinds of conditions.

We believe as a matter of course that the only way negotiations can be successful is if there is a blackout and silence on the whole matter until the two parties have reached some kind of a resolution. But as the President of Treasury Board (Dr. Collins) has said, I firmly believe that, you know, it is in the best interests of everybody now 1 and I think it is a responsible position for us to take, for the NTA leadership to put the proposal that we put on the table on Fridayto the membership. I honestly believe that some of the leadership of the NTA were hasty in responding.

Within only a couple of hours they had responded to a signifi­ cant departure in our position from what it had been up to then. On reflection I think a lot of people believe that perhaps they were a little hasty. If they had waited for a few more hours and consulted widely with their member­ ship, I think the response that they would have given to government would have been much different and would have provided a basis on which we could have negotiated some kind of an agreement. But the negativism, the entrenched position 3019

April 26, 1983 Tape 1389 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: that was taken when they came back through the mediator , not only to reject outright the sign if icant concession on substitute teachers but on the professional workload, you know, the way that they approached that, plus putting new items on the table that had not been there before, left very little room. Now we can all go tit for tat, back and forth,but the bottom line of it is since all of this started, you know, that is the way it happened over the weekend .

So I think the appropriate mechanism no,~, so that there be no other drastic action, if the NTA wishes to change the position it took on the wea~end and to resume negotiations with a blackout, fine and dandy, we are prepared at a moment's notice, at the drop of a hat to do that . But we also believe that \~e all must be responsible and so must the NTA negotiating committee and their executive . And I firmly believe that the time is ripe for it because I think they have achieved significant gains from the government since they began their strike . 3020

April 26, 1983 Tape 1390 PK - l PREMIER PECKFORD: and since they began their demonstrations and so on. They have achieved, and successfully achieved, significant benefits and concessions from this government. Now I think the time is ripe,and we have put that on the table, for the leadership of the N.T.A., as the President of Treasury (Dr. Collins) says,to go to their membership~ The mandate that they had at the beginning was a selective withdrawal of services which then was supposed to not involve a definition of a strike, and which subsequently did, and that is the only mandate they had.

And, you know, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander; I have to report to this House and I think that the l~adership of the N.T.A. should report to their members, especially in light of the professionalism which the teachers of this Province sho~ 1and want to continue to show as part of their mandate of delivering educational services to the young people. So, you know, I sincerely hope,both personally and on behalf of governrnent,that the N.T.A. leadership will see fit to call fora free vote.

If, of course 1 the leadership wants to make a recommendation as part of that vote 1 that is entirely up to them to do- to recommend rejection, to recommend acceptance, to make no recommendation. But I think it is time for the teachers of this Province to speak on a significant proposal that we put on the table. We did it consciously, and we were bitterly disappointed that within a couple of hours the leadership had seen fit to so negatively reject the package and to put new iterns,that had not been on the tab~e befor~ on the table for the first time.

But as far as a blackout goes, we agreed with the Federation of Parent/TeachersAssociations and Horne and School Associations last week in going back to the table 1 blackout and all the rest of it. Our position 3021

April 26, 1983 Tape No . 1390 PK-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: has been consistent on that . But my vie'" right now is that we need to have from the professional teachers of this Province an indication of just where the membership stands on si gnifi cant concessions already given . I am sure that the teachers of this Province, as well as the Leader of the Opposit .ion (Mr .

Neary) understands that we .have to negotiate next month with the nurses of this Province, we have to negotiate with thousands and thousands of employees, and whatever pattern is set in this set of negotiations will also be set for the other negotiations . You knm11, we have a responsibility to this House and to a~l the taxpayers of the Province to be fair and reasonable. We believe that at the present moment , as a result of our proposal on Friday, that we are being fair and reasonable in the approach that we are taking, given the economic rea~ities of the time, and we stand by that, Mr . Speaker . 3022

-· April 26,1983 MR .SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR.NEARY: Tape No. 1391 ah-1 The hon .Leader of the A supplementary, Mr.Speaker. I would consider the hon. gentleman's answer a cowardly attack on the negotiating team for the NTA and an interference in the internal operations of the NTA. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman got up and tried to play to the gallaries, play his little games to the galleries. Let me ask the Minister of Justice (Mr.Ottenheimer) - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: I sat here in silence when the hon.

Premier was just making that ridiculous statement he just made, trying to cause dissention in the ranks of the NTA 1 because that it what the hon. gentleman is doing. Last week the Minister of Justice undertook to examine the legal aspects of this dispute to determine whether it was a strike or a lockout. The hon. gentleman said he would get his legal advisers to take a second look.

In view of the fact that the teachers are not violating their collective agreement, that the extra curricular activities that were suspended were not written in any collective agreement so therefore for all practical purposes it was a lockout because they had reported for work, they wanted to go to the classrooms and the school boards locked them out, has the han. gentleman had his officials take a second look at this to determine whether it is indeed a lockout or a strike? MR. SPEAKER: MR.OTTENHEIMER: The hon.Minister of Justice. Mr.

Speaker, there was no doubt in my view,and there is no doubt in the minds of the legal people who have reviewed it and whose duty it is to advise government 1 that the current action is a strike. There is no doubt in my mind on the legal question that it is a strike,and it is my understanding that that is not a matter in legal dispute. It might be a matter in polemics 1 3023

April 26,1983 Tape No. 1391 ah-2 MR~ OTTENHEIMER: but it is my understanding that the legal advisor, the solicitor of the NTA has advised his principals,the executive of the NTA,that it is legally a strike. So in my mind that is very definitive. MR.NEARY: A supplementary. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition, a supplementary. MR.NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Justice (Mr.Ottenheimer) we prepared to table in this House any documentation he has to substantiate, to back up what he just said?

Obviously the han. gentleman did not just discuss this matter with legal counsel in his department, no doubt he had the opinion in writing, so would the hon.minister table that opinion in this House so that we can see what authority they are using for the government calling this a strike and the teachers and everybody else calling it a lockout? And would the hon. gentleman also tell the House if his department has taken a look at the legal position of the teachers after the end of June?

If the strike,for instance1lingers on until the end of June, when the Summer vacation starts,when the teachers are entited to be paid,would the government not have to pay the teachers after the end of June? Has the hon. gentleman looked at that aspect of it? The schools are closed as of the end of Jtlne, and we hope that the dispute will be settled long before that, but in case it does drag on till the end of June1are not the teachers entitled to be paid during the three months of the Summer that they areoffbecause their salaries are based over a twelve month period? Has he looked at that?

Could he tell the House whether he has given advice to the 3024

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1392 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) and the President of Treasury Board (Dr. Collins) and,if so,would he tell us what that advice is?Because there is a feeling abroad that the teachers are entitled to be paid the end of June if the strike carries on that long. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Justice, MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I was certainly pleased to answer in a very clear and unequivocal matter the hon, the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr.

Neary) first question with respect to the legal status of the present action and state unequivocally that it is a strike. With respect to what opinion if any I have given the government in a possible hypothetical situation arising as of the end of June, number one, I think I would be precluded by the rules for answering a hypothetical question. ~ou know,it is a matter of two months or more away and it would not be appropr~ate to answer a hypothetical question . based on a hypothetical situation.

Obviously, if one were to do that there are all k~nds of series of hypothetical situations that could be put forward 1 so it would not be appropriate for me to do, The hon. gentleman asked if ~ would table the legal opinion which either I have received or I have rendered,or whatever the case might be, The only rea13on I would refuse to do that would be on matter of principle. This matter is not a matter of legal dispute.

As I say 1 It might be a matter of polemics 1but every minister is accountable for the truth of what he says 1 and I know the han, gentleman was not saying or implying that I was lying 1 but .if every time I stated something I had to come in and prove it, then it would be as if I were misleading the House or not telling the truth and there were an onus on me all of the time to establish that I was telling the truth, and it is not just me; but any minister of 3025

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1392 MJ - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: government would be in the same situation. Any minister of government would almost acquiesce in the suggestion that unless he can prove that he is not misleading the House he is in fact misleading the House,and that is not a position that I wish to put myself or my colleagues in as a matter of principle. As I point out,I am not aware that this is a matter of legal dispute, It is my understanding that the solicitor of the NTA has advised his principals that legally it is a strike. I mean, that is not a matter of dispute.

There has been no reference to the court to ask whether it is, and in my opinion everybody is agreed that it is a strike from the legal point of view, I know in polemics, in argument, people can argue back and forth and say it is a lockout or it is a this or a that, but strictly speaking1legally1 I am not aware of any legal dispute on that particular matter. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the han. minister made a statement that he knows for a fact that legal counsel for the NTA is calling it a strike~ Is that what the hon. gentlman is saying? Has he seen the opinion of the lawyer for the NTA? And, Mr. Speaker, we are not accusing the han. gentleman of anything,we are just merely asking to have the opinion-tabled.

First of all/let me ask the hon. gentleman if he does have an opinion in writing,and,if he does,we are asking to have the opinion tabled so that we can examine it to see what authority legal counsel in the Justice Department used for arriving at their conclusion.We think we are entitled to have that because after all the minister is acting in a dual capacity, he advises the 3026

- April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1393 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: Cabinet asAttorney General and he also enforces the law in this Province as Minister of Justice. So as Hinister of Justice (Hr. Ottenheimer) we think that he should table thisopinion in the House so that we can take it and have our lawyers examine it, not that we disbelieve the hon. gentleman, But,Mr. Speaker, I would like to see an independent law firm called in to give an opinion on this. The hon. gentleman is asking his own servants, people who work for the government, who work for the minister, to give an opinion.

Has the hon. gentleman thought about getting an independent opinion of lawyers on this particular matter? It is a very moot question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, just a clarification, I did not say that I was sure, I said it was my understanding that the solicitor for the NTA had, in fact, advised the NTA executive that these actions - MR. NEARY: rumours or what? MR. OTTENHEIMER: What is it 1 gossip or just - did constitute a strike. I said it was my understanding. MR. NEARY: Oh, I see. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Now the hon. gentleman says he would like to have an independent opinion. Obviously it is his prerogative to get an independent opinion, to get an additional opinion if he wants to- MR. NEARY: of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: prerogative - MR. NEARY: That is your job as Minister - that is anybody' s Well, if you come over here and let me go over there, I will get one - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 3027

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1393 MR. OTTENHEIMER: -the NTA or anybody. The han. gentleman has a lawyer in his caucus. I am sure there are at least a few lawyers, a number of SD - 2 lawyers who are supporters of the han. gentleman's Party, Anybody is entitled to get a legal opinion if they wish. And as I say, the hon. gentleman has a lawyer in his own caucus. So I am sure if he wanted an additional legal opinion there would be no difficulty to get one• They are not hard to come by. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Time for Question Period has expired. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: MR.

HISCOCK: The hon. member for Eagle River. Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of seventy-three residents from the community of Paradise River 1 who are supporting the community of North West River in its effort to have the hospital there continue at the present status. I happened to be reading the Grenfell Health Regional Services, March issue1concerning the clinic in Paradise River. It is a very small clinic, the population is about 100 and, of course, they send their people into North West River. They are rather concerned about the downgrading of the services.

The petition says: 'We 1 the citizens of Paradise River1completely oppose the ~ecision to down­ grade the North West River Hospital to a clinic. Health services on the Labrador Coast are deteriorating every year and what is urgently needed is to improve them, not to make them worse. In addition, it is far too expensive for us to pay our way out of our own pocket to fly to St. Anthony or St. John's for hos·pi tal care 1 and this will, no doubt, be necessary more often if 3028

April 26, 1983 Tape No . 1393 so - 3 MR . HISCOCK: North West River Hospital is closed . We fully support the Health Care Committee of North West River in their efforts to reverse this decision and call on all coastal residents to do the same.' At the meeting that the Minister o£ Health (Mr . House) attended in North West River, the media brought to his attention letters that were written to the committee down there and to the members of the council,that no change would be made in the status of the hospital .

In actual fact, a letter in 19 81 signed by the present Premier also stated that no changes would be made . And if this is going to be the way, Mr . Speaker, that letters are going to 3029

Ap:dl 26, 1983 Tape 1394 EC - 1 MR. HISCOCK: go out from Cabinet and from the Premier and are not going to be backed up by them, then obviously the people of this Province are going to lose faith in the leaders of the Province. Seventy-three people feel that they need better health services in North West River instead of having to go to other areas. I support the continuation of the North West River hospital. Even though the Hinister of Health (Mr. House) has said that it is going to close, they are now looking at the possibility of, through the Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Hickey) , having it operated as a chronic care unit. And, of course, I am sure that the Minister of Social Services will say no, there are sufficient chronic care facilities in the Paddon Home or in the hospital. MR. HICKEY: How can you presume what I am going to say? MR. HISCOCK: Well, we will soon see if the I".inist~r wants to rise apd support the petitio~, Mr. Speaker. ~1R. HICKEY: On a :t::oint of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please! The han. the Minister of Social Services on a point of order. MR.

HICKEY: How dare the han. member take the liberty of assuming what I am going to say or write next week. I know he is a very intelligent individual but he is not a mind reader. That is the problem with gentlemen over that way, they assume too much, methinks. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition to that point of order. MR. NEARY: That is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker. If my colleague hurt the hon. minister's feelingsrthen he is rather testy today. He should try to 3030

..: April 26, 1983 MR. NEARY: not a point of order. rules of the House. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker. Tape 1394 EC - 2 restrain himself. That is The hon. gentleman is abusing the To that point of order, MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Social Services to that point of order. MR. HICKEY: I was not a bit testy until my favourite sparring partner stood up. Now I am getting a bit testy,maybe. I was not a bit testy. I have a good relationship with the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER: point of order. Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Order, please! There is no The hon. the member for Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Since we only have five minutes and people are getting up on points of order, I would haveassumed that the Minister of social Services would have waited until some other time to make his point. I support the residents of Paradise River and hope that the government will reconsider, particularly now that we have saved $14 million from the teachers. Maybe we will be able to spend some of this money in keeping open our hospitals throughout the Province, not only in North West River. So, Mr.

Speaker, I support the petition and lay it upon the table of this House and ask that it be sent to the appropriate ministersand particularly, the Premier, who wrote them saying, yes, it will continue to remain in its present status. Thank you. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. 3031

April 26, 1983 Tape 1394 EC - 3 MR. BOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I want to respond to the petition from the people of Paradise River. As hon . members are aware, we had three petitions in the Bouse of Assembly on Friday on the same matter. In addressing the prayer of the petition, they are requesting , of course, that we not downgrade the health facilities and in some parts of the petition they are saying that if the North West River hospital is closed, people will have to go to St. Anthony and St. John 's. 3032

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1395 NM - 1 MR. HOUSE: ~he fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, the services are going to be provided in Happy Valley/Goose Bay and their very own brief had stated that it has been ten years since it was recommended to close that particular institution in North west River, as an in- patient facility. I was there this weekend and I pointed out to the people that the efforts we are going to make now are to upgrade and provide more, more and better services.

Because han. members well know that North West River Hospital is some twenty-five miles on a paved road from the hospital in Goose Bay, and of course in the last ten years it has dropped down to 40 per cent occupancy and there is no surgery, a lot of the se .rvices that are going on there, by their own } --- admission have .been services that,of course, could be provided in a hostel, in some cases. So, Mr.

Speaker, in looking at this and I believe the people in Labrador themselves, in North West River, recognize that it would have to close as that kind of facility, ~hey wanted to be assured that there -would be hostels for people in transit, we gave them that assurance; they wanted to be assured of good service, the best possible service, and we gave them that assurance. This will not affect the Coast whatsoever. And the Coast of Labrador, Mr. Speaker, has double the number of people now than they had six years ago,delivering services to them.

I believe it has gone from 23 to 46 people serving the people in heaLth care on the Coast. So it is not being 'downgraded every year, Nr. Speaker, it is being upgraded yearly. I certainly will take the petition.And wnat: eney--a.re -looking for are better improved services and I guaranteed the people in North West River, and the people 3033

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1395 NM ~ 2 MR. H:OUSE: in Coastal Labrador that there . would be improved services in the area serving the Coast and Goose Bay. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, last week we had three petitions from Labrador in support of the residents of North west River in their efforts to try and save their hospital there. And when I stood to support the petitions presented last \<reek by the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren) I said then and I say again now that the decision recently rendered by this government in its budget a month ago, the decision to close down the hospital in North west River, is a callous act of a callous government. In two successive years, in two successive budgets, last Spring and now this Spring, we see this government, without any prior consultation, quite the opposite, Mr.

Speaker, we see a government writing letters to various and sundry organizations and individuals in towns like Whitbourne, and Markland and North West River, writing letters during election campaigns saying, "Before we make any decision regarding the facility in your town we will consult with you," and so on, 3 0 3 L~

April 26, 1983 Tape 1396 PK - 1 MR. CALLAN: and then that same government callously and unilaterally making a decision - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. CALLAN: the district - MR. HOUSE: order. MR. SPEAKER: on a point of order. MR. HOUSE: Oh, oh! Order, please! Not even the member for Mr. Speaker, on a point of The hon. Minister of Health Mr. Speaker, last week I rose in my place when the hon. member was speaking on other petitions, and pointed out that he is supposedto support the petition. MR. CALLAN: Did you? MR. HOUSE: And to talk about the material allegations in the body of the petition.

He is not supposed to enter into debate. It is stated clearly in the rules, he is notsupposed to enter into debate. He is talking about a callous government closing hospitals and this sort of thing. It has nothing to do with the body of .this particular petition. What he is supposed to be doing is pointing out how that is going to cause deterioration in health. And if he cannot do that, Mr. Speaker, he should not be speaking 1 because he is entering into the realm of debate now and that is clearly not allowed. MR. CALLAN: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: to that point of order. MR. CALLAN: To that point of order, Mr.

The hon. member for Bellevue, The Minister of Health (Mr. House), Mr. Speaker, is obviously smarting, the truth hurts. He cannot sit there and listen to it, so he gets up and lectures the Speaker on how to run the House of Ass.embly. 3035

Apr il 26, 198 3 Tape 1396 PK - 2 MR. CALW\.N: Obviously,if I was out of order-it is the role of the Speaker to call members to order and not the Minister of Health (Mr. House). SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell}: Hear, hea r! So there is no point of order. Order, pleasel To that paint of or.der, it is correct thatwhen han. members rise to speak to a petition their comments should be kept to the prayer of that petition. However, it is very difficult,perhaps,for the Chair to rule on the rule of relevancy.

Having said all of that. the time has almost expired for the han. member . and maybe he wishes to continue his remarks. MR . CALLAN: Thank you, .Mr. Speaker. In conclusion, .Mr. Speaker, I want to say once again that I concur with the voices of the people in Paradise River, eighty, ninety or one hu..;"J.dred people.

Whether it is small or large is totally immaterial, but I concur with their concerns about having the medical facility removed from the town of North West River as this same government removed the facility from a town in my district last year,unilaterally, Not even the member for the district; a member of the Cabinet was aware,he said,that the facility was being removed. I support the petition, Mr. Speaker. 3036

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1397 JV - 1 MR. SPEAKER: (Russell) The han. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of 207 residents of Cartwright who also support the community of North West River in wanting the North West River hospital to continue'in its present status. Culturally Paradise River and Cartwright have usedthe North West River hospital. The Minister of Health (Mr. House) said before that surgery and other functions have not been taking place there for a while.

The gov~~nment has deliberately, deliberately down-graded the services of that hospital to the present status so that they can now say that the services can be provided at Happy Valley/Goose Bay. So, we have seen the down- grading of the hospital in North West River. We will see the downgrading in Placentia, in Buchans, in Botwood and Bell Island and Mr. Speaker, before this - government's term is up these hospitals will also be closed and put into clinic form.

This is one of the reasons why the government has set up a Royal Commission, to take the pressure off themselves and have the people on the Royal Commission bring in these recommendations,instead of having the intestinal fortitude to do it themselves. The other thing I would like to sa~Mr. Speaker,on behalf of the ~207 residents of Cartwright who have signed this petition, culturally they have gone back and forth to North West River; it is a community similar in size,withthe same type of attitude. 3037

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1397 JV - 2 MR. HISCOCK: ~nd when the people go there they have many friends with whom they often stay,

whereas if they go to Happy Valley/Goose Bay they will have to stay in a hotel, which is probably sixty dollars a night or so 1 and this will put an undue expense on relatives aaving to go there to visit their loved ones who are in the hospital. I feel, Mr. Speaker, that we have seen this government continually downgrade the health services in this Province, continually downgrade the education facilities. Anything that the previous Liberal administration of years ago did,Mr. Speaker,to build up - MR. HOUSE: MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER(Russell): MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, Mr.

Speaker. - this government Order, please! -Mr. Speaker, is tearing down - Order, please! MR. HISCOCK: - and if the people of this Province do not wake up, Mr. Speaker, anything - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to remind the hon. member for Eagle rtiver (Mr. Hiscock) that when an han. member rises on a point of order it is the obligation of the Chair to recognize him and that the member speaking at that time is obligated to take his seat. I recognize the han. Minister of Health (Mr. House) on a point of order. MR. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker,the reason for my point of order is that we have just ruled that there is no debate allowed in the presentation of a petition. 3038

April 26, 1983 Tape No . 1397 JV - 3 MR. BOUSE: . The fact of the matter is, there are untruths being stated, there are things that are wrong being stated . I cannot get up when I go to speak on this particular petition and rebutt because it will be debate so, therefore, Mr. Speaker , I think that the bon. me .mber should be reading first of all the prayer o£ the petition . I do not know what to respond to, if I do respond. Be bas never read the prayer of the petition, I do not know what the people in Cartwright want . Mr .

Speaker , all I am trying to do, I am not trying to be difficult, I am trying to point out it is not a time for debate or if it is, I would like to have the opportunity to debate also .But the other point is that I do not know what the petition is saying,so how can it be responded to? 3039

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1398 ,MJ - 1 MR. HISCOCK: To that point of order, Mr. ~peaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): To that point of order, the hon, the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Obviously I have h~t a sens~t~ve nerve, When the minister was down in North West River he got a welcome that he did not expect and as a result, ,Mr. ppeaker, he is now trying to muzzle any form of presenting the facts. Hr. Speaker, the Minister of Health (Mr. House) is a little bit testy. MR. SPEAKER: Order,please!

I would remind all hon, members of our Standing Order 92 which says, "Every member offer~ng a petition to the House shall confine himself to the statement of the parties from whom it comes, the number of signatures attached to it and the material allegations it contains." And I think our Standing Order is very clear as to the kind of presentation that an hon. member should make when presenting a petition, The hon. the member for Eagle ~iver. MR. HISCOCK: Mr.

Speaker, the prayer of the petition is rather brief and I did mention it before1that the community of Cartwright supports the community of North West :River in having the decision to close the hospital and turn it into a clinic reversed. It was rather brief but it is to the point. And as I said, Mr. Speaker, the res~dents of Cartwright want to see this facility remain so that they can continue to have cultural ties with North West River.

But as I also stated, Mr. ~peaker, we in this Province seeing a continual downgrading of services and I would go so far as to say that within the next couple of years we will see extra .. billing in this Province, people going to a hospital having to pay more mone~ They are paying for their beds now. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 3040

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1398 MJ - 2 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Order 3, Concurrence Debate, Government Services. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order 3, Concurrence Deb~te, Government Services Committee. The debate,as I understand Lt,last day was adjourned by the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) who has approximately three minutes left to finish up his remarks. MR. NEARY: The han. the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr, Speaker, I only have three minutes left so there is not much I can say except that I am becoming increasingly concerned about the doubts that are being created as to the possibility of Hibernia being put into production in the next twenty years. We are hearing statements from various and sundry people,because of the oil glut in the world and because of the decline in the world price of oil, that Hibernia is not as attractive as it used to be and the possibility of it getting into production in the next ten years is very unlikely,indeed. Now, Mr.

Speaker, apart frail\ the fact that the administration blew it when they put the matter before the Newfoundland Appeal Court,when they took the resource and said to the three judges in the Newfoundland Appeal Court, 'You decide the future of this resource,' apart from that probably being the biggest blunder in Newfoundland history, while all this was going on, with the delays and the procrastination on the part of the administr~tion dragging out the exploration and drilling and getting ready for production, while they were 3041

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1399 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: delaying that, Mr. Speaker. the price of oil was dropping and there was an oil glut in the world. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER {Aylward) : President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. Mr. Speaker, it is probably a point of information to the hon. gentleman.

I will not hesitate to enter into debate with him at any time he wishes to with respect to Hiberina and our assertion of our jurisdiction and our attempts to get justice and equity from that resource, but what is now before the Chair, Your Honour, is the Concurrence Motion on the Government Services Committeep ~Vhat is before this House now is the matter of the Government Services Committee Estimates that were considered -the Department of Finance, the Department of Municipal Affairs, the Department of Transportation and the other departments involved,but the Department of Mines and Energy was involved in Resource Committee.

So the hon. gentleman is really talking about another order and I do not know whether he realizes it or not. MR. NEARY: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: r realize what I am saying, Mr. Speaker. We are talking about Finance, we are talking about Labour and Manpower, we are talking about jobs, we are talking about increased revenue to try to balance the budget and to reduce the deficit. So what I was leading up to, Mr.

Speaker, was that these delays would not create any badly needed jobs for the unemployed in this Province and it would not generate any new business or 3042

J\pril 26 1 1983 Tape No. 1399 SD - 2 .MR. NEAR,Y; any new revenue for the ProvincP., all as a result of the procrastination and the delay on the part of the hon. gentleman and the administration that he supports. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) _ : To that point of order, the hon. President of the Council (_Mr. Marshall) is correct that we are doing Government Services Estimates Committee, and the hon. member should refer his remarks to the differentHeads under the Government Services Committees. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, as I said there when I was speaking to the point of order - MR.

SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: goes now, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. Is that the way the House The hon. member for Bellevue. Mr. Speaker, first of ·all, I thought that at least somebody on the government side would stand because we usually alternate from one side to the other. I do not know why, but there are not many left over there, I realize, out of the forty-four, but at least there must be somebody over there who could stand and try to give some accounting for government's actions. The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs.

Newhook)_ is theJ;"e and that, of course, is one of the departments which fall under Government Services. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) is not here, I do not know · where he is! but perhaps I can take a minute, Mr. Speaker 1 to talk about the Department of Transportationas I did las~week• I referred to the Department of Transportation last week and the secretive way in which public funds are dispersed by this government. I asked,in the Committee, the Minister of Transportation to table a list of capital works programmes' Where in this Province will pavement 3043

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1399 SO -3 MR. CALLAN: be provided? Will it be provided for the town of HiJ.lvie\v in my district,or in MarkJ.and,or Northwest Brook or Hodge's Cove? Where? Over the weekend, Mr. Speaker, I heard the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. M,organ) announcing $500,000 for his district. MR. MORGAN: Hear, hear. people out there. MR. CALLAN: Bona vista South. ~'lell-d.e·serving Every year, Mr. Speaker, what the Minister of Fisheries does, and .I have warned,especially the newer members in the backbenches on the government side, I warned them, you watch the t-finister of Fisheries, 3044

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1400 NM- 1 MR. CALLAN: even if the government brought down a zero budget in the Department of Finance, no money at all to be spent on new capital works programmes in the Department of Transportation, even if the government did that the Minister of Fisheries lMr. Morgan) would get $500 ,, 000 or $1 million for his district, by hook or by crook he would get it. MR. MORGAN: A bigger vote in the next election. MR. CALLAN: You see what happens , Mr. Speaker, what the Minister of Fisheries lMr.

Morgan) does, he goes out and he makes a public announcement that he has got $500,000 for his district, and then he comes back to Cabinet and Cabinet says, "H.ow come you did it? You know that you are not getting any," "Well, now that I have made the announcement you will have to give it to me." You see this is what he does. I do not know how else he does it. But I would say that is what he does. lie holds the Cabinet up to ransom. He has done it before, Mr. Speaker. The former Premier, Premier Moores, was held up to ransom by this very same minister.

You know,if you do not do this, or if you do not do that I am going to tell all~ a deep, dark secret that this minister holds over his own Cabinet of which he is a member, and over his own party of which he is a member. But, Mr. Speaker, so much for that. As I said,last week I discovered that the district of St. Mary's-The Capes will be obtaining, this year,approximately $1 million for road work - MR. MORGAN: MR. CALLAN: Hear, hear! A good member. - and I would say as I said last week, Mr. Speaker, jolly good for them. They well deserve it. Because I know that in the distr~ct of St.

Mary's-The Capes there are approximately 150 miles of dirt road. Not so in the district of Bonavista South, Mr . Speaker, not so there. And even 3045

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1400 NM - 2 MR. CALLAN: in Bonavista South, Mr. Speaker, if the people there were getting very important stretches of highway upgraded and paved, even there I would concur and I would agree. But that district, Mr. Spe -aker MR. MORGAN: - Bonavista South. That is unfair. MR. CALLAN: - which is represented by probably the most arrogant member of the Cabinet, and the minister who cons the Cabinet into giving him some money because of the way that he does it - AN HON. MEMBER: ,'that 1:-:: does it. MR. CALLAN: Do you agree wit~the way No, Mr. Speaker, I do not agree.

Of the 2,000 miles of unpaved roads in this Province I am certain that on a priority list this road in Bonavista - . . - .. -- -- South is well down towards the bottom of the heap. There are other and more important stretches of highway that should be done with the limited finances that this government has in the Department of Transportation this year. But, Mr. Speaker, another department that comes under Government Services is the Department of Finance. The government has now saved approximately $15 million over the past eleven days, 3046

April 26,1983 Tape No. 1401 ah-1 MR.CALLAN: has saved approximately $15 million. The question that is obvious at this time, Mr. Speaker, is what does government intend to do with this windfall that they have 1 thanks to their treatment of the teachers in this Province? They have a $15 million windfall, will any of that money be put into roads, will it be put into the Department of Municipal Affairs to provide water and sewer for the many towns that need it around this Province,including some in the district of Bellevue? But, Mr.

Speaker, as the Leader of the Opposition was saying before he was interrupted, just now, actually, on a point of order, what this concurrence debate is all about is the finances of the Province, the Department of Finance. Mr. Speaker, if we had had an offshore oil agreement signed two months ago,or better still two years ago, but even if we had it two days ago or two months ago,this Province, Mr. Speaker, would be a lot , an awful lot better off financially; there would not have to be the cutbacks that we have in the Department of Health in health services to the people of this Province. Mr.

Speaker, I would venture to say that the reason that people in this Province are not marching in the streets and protesting in every possible way is because a large majority of the people out there do not realize how much this Province is losing because of this very, very long delay in a negotiated settlement with Ottawa. People do not realize the kind of activity that would be created if the deal were signed, say, tomorrow.

That is why, Mr.Speaker, in conversations with some of my colleagues, some of my colleagues suggest that the member for Mount Scio (Mr.Barry), a former minister in the Cabinet of the present administration, who negotiated the ERCO deal and who was on his way to negotiating a good deal with Ottawa before he resigned because he could not do it the way he wanted to because the Premier stopped him from doing so, some of my colleagues suggest that 3047

April 26 ,1983 Tape No . 1401 MR .CALLAN : if the member for Mount Scio (Mr .Barry) were to cross the House he wou ld make a good addition to this Opposition and to this side of the Rouse of Assembly . SOME HON .MEMBERS : Hear , hear ! ah -2 MR .CALLAN : Well , Mr . Speaker , I do not agree , I do no t think that it would be a good thing for the memb er for Mount Scio to come across on this side of the House at all.Becau se, Mr . Speaker, I would say that if anybody 3048

April 26, 1983 Tape 1402 EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: is letting down this Province any more than are the Premier and his colleagues, if anybody else is letting down this Province any more, it would have to be the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry). You see, the member for Mount Scio cannot have it both ways. He cannot just subtly and every now and then, perhaps once a month or once a week or whatever just kind of suggest, you know, that 'I am the Prince-in-Waiting and the present Premier is doing things all wrong.' But as long as he just sits on the fence and does not break totally with his party, I would say, Mr.

Speaker, that the member for Mount Scio is doing more harm to this Province than even the Premier is doing, and God knows what harm is being inflicted by the Premier and his colleagues. So I would say, Mr. Speaker, that if the member for Mount Scio is going to be taking the odd flick at the Premier and the administra­ tion in which he is a backbencher, then he should do it one way or the other, either totally break off and say - because it was a month ago, I believe, or less, that the member for Mount Scio was at the university suggesting that· he knew how to negotiate a deal with Ottawa, he had the answer.

Well, why does not the member for Mount Scio ask the Premier, goto the Premier and ask to be admitted back into the Cabinet so that the Premier can delegate him that duty;or do one of two things or one of a half a dozen things, Mr. Speaker? But he cannot just sit there, coming here perhaps one week saying something to embarrass the government and then waiting another month. And, of course, meanwhile the Province is just drifting on with no compass and no course. And then the member for Mount Scio expects that in two years time when the Premier calls a leadership convention, he is going to march right into it.

I think, Mr. Speaker, the member for Mount Scio should be reminded that the people of 3049

Ap ril 26, 19 83 Tape 1402 EC - 2 MR. CALl,.A}f : this Province will probably not forget that he should have spoken 011t two year.s ago. In 1985 or whenever it is that he hopes to become the new Premier or the new Leader of the P.C. Party is not the time. continue later on. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Council. MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I will Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The hon. the President of the If none of my colleagues are going to rise, I will spare the Assembiy from having to listen to three Liberals consecutively. Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman who has just spoken touched a very, very relevant point but he did not really come to grips with the problem. He used the superficial observation that if we had a negotiated agreement our financial position would be better. What a superficial statement to make: I would agree with him, if we had a negotiated agreement - well, we had a negotiated agreement, Mr. Speaker, an q.greement in principle 3050

April 26, 1983 Tape 1403 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: that was concluded between this government and Mr. Chretien the past December and January this year~ If that agreement was in fact delivered, as we still await its delivery, we would indeed have been on the road towards a better financial situation than we have at the present time.

But on the other end of the stream, if we had a negotiated settlement that was going to give us an agreement such as the agreement that has been signed with the Province of Nova Scotia, which is the only one that the federal government is prepared to give to this Province, . we would not 1 in fact,be in a better financial position.

As a matter of fact,on the balance 1 when you weigh the pros and the cons of it, in the near short time we would be, in fact,in a worse financial position than we are in today, because we would have to provide for all of the intrastructural costs and we would have to bear all of the additional attendant costs which would come with development, without the wherewithal or the means to bear those costs. We would end up in a position where further increases in salaries would be unable to be entertained, where we would have to look at further cuts in education; health, and social services and what have you.

So that is the situationr The han. gentleman can get up like some of his colleagues and very superficially say from time to time- it sounds like motherhood/ •·· ) and it sounds so great to say - if we had ac negotiated settlement we would be in a better financial position,or similarly like motherhood is saying, that there should be negotiations- I am talking in relation to the offshore. Without going into the history of what transpired or the substantive positions,then, you know, that is what they do. I am quite sure that the hon. gentlemen there opposite would enter into, 3051

April 26, 1983 Tape 1403 PK -2 MR. MARSHALL: and would enter into very,. very quickly any kind of an agreement that was put before them, just to sign an agreement.

They did that once before, at one other stage in our history,with respect to the Upper Churchill, and we saw what has happened in the long-term on that; we are subjected to pressures that the han. gentlemen there opposite would not allow themselves to be subjected to in the short-term,with respect to the Upper Churchill case, we are subjected to pressures now, but we are certainly not going to bend to those pressures because we know what the long-term problems will be with it. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we are considering here the passage of the Committee 's report, concurring in the Committee's report that considered certain departments which are styled as Government Services Departments; they involve the Department of Finance, the Department of Public Works and Services, the Department of Municipal Affairs, and the Department of Transportation , there is another one as well,on all by which Committee deliberations have been held and have shown that by and large there departments had been administered within a very reasonable, efficient and effective fashion. 3052

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1404 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: Because I can talk about 11unicipal Affairs, Hr. Speaker, I am going to have just a few words relevant to Municipal Affairs insofar as it pertains to a controversy that has come up recently ~ith respect to the parking garage enquiry in the City of St. John's. Now, I speak of this and I am goinq to pass my opinion on it because I am a sitting .. member for the City of st. John's and I want to respond to it.

I do not want to get into the interplays between the various councillors with respect to that report, and neither do I want to get into the comments that have been made as to the length of time and the cost of the report, that is something else. but I would like to point out from my own point of view, as a member for the city of St. John's, Mr. Speaker, that the councillor who originally initiated this enquiry, Councillor Wells,at the time made certain statements with respect tb the cost of the garage, and as a result of this there was an enquiry that had occurred.

The commission conducted its enquiry and made its findings, As I say,there are various things I will not comment on such as the cost, the length of time, or the interplay now between the councillors. But I wish. to observe-because I know it is a pretty lonely world when somebody gets up and asks for an enquiry. I remember when I was in Opposition myself,for example, if I can digress for just a moment, having gotten up in this Kouse when there were only four or five members on the other side, and said that there should be an enquiry into the cost of the piece of land over at Holiday Inns.

T.here was a certain contractor then who had in those days - I will not name him because those-days are gone now,but the only way to conduct business was to be very friendly in a very real sense 3053

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1404 NM-2 MR. MARSHALL: with the government of the day. And I remember at that time pointing out irrefutable proof of the fact that the property was bought from that entity at th.en exorbitant rates. I 3 0 5lf

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1405 MJ - 1 MR. MARSHALL: was greeted at the time by a commission. This was the way government dealt with it at the time. If you were in opposition and you made a statement that prickled them, they had a royal commission set up and that royal commission held its hearings, enquired into the statements, it filed its report and the government sat on it for a year, never filed the report, itself. When there was a change of government we filed it, and it bore out every single thing I said.

But I remember it was a very lonely road to go at that particular time, because people were enquiring as to whether you were right, and it appeared that you had your neck on the line and what have you. In that case it was borne out. And that is why I get up and I speak today with respect to this matter - one of the reasons - because there is no doubt, from that parking garage report, that the positions that were taken by the councillor who asked for that report were in fact borne out.

And I do not feel that that councillor needs - it is not my province to get up and protect one councillor or another, he is quite capable of protecting himself but as far as I am concerned, that particular councillor's position was borne out and I do not particularly think that he deserves the criticisms which he has been subjected to through various quarters, shall we say, publicly, as a result of it. In actual fact he made a statement, an enquiry was made - in a little bit different circumstances, it was not thrust on him, he asked for it - and the enquiry actually bore him out.

And, now, whatever the council do with it - they can do whatever they wish, that is their prerogative - I do not think it needs to be taken from the point of view of saying, 'Look, this is going to be put on the back burner, the commission should never have been held in the first place.' I doubt very much whether those particualr statements would have, in fact, been made if Councillor Wells had not, in fact, been borne out. 3055

April 26, 1983 Tape No . 1405 MJ - 2 MR . MARSHALL : In other words, if it was shown that the cost was reasonable and what ha ve you, you would not have gotten statements made to that effect. So I just wan t to associate myself with the position because I realize , particularly from the reports that are coming out , that what Councillor Wells is experiencing now might appear to be a little bit of a lonely world .

But the fact of the matter is he made a statement, there was a report, it took a long time for the commission to bring in the report, that was no fault of h~~ and maybe no fau lt of the commission , but he was borne out , Mr. Speaker , and I wan t to point that out . I want to point out , also that because th er e might be a cozy little clique or what have you in the small, little City of St . John 's we do not want to embarrass people or anythi ng else - we are talking about people being involved in matters of publi c trust and dischargi ng their public duti es that 305 6

April 26,1983 Tape No. 1406 ah-1 MR. MARSHALL: we should not just merely, because we are members of a little club, how are you, just merely put the report on the shelf and dust it off from time to time. The report was conclusive, there was no indication in the report that there was any wrongdoing or anything like that 1 but surely to heavens when there has been such a large amount of extra expenditure involved, l do not think that the appropriate course is to say you are just going to put it on the shelf in City Council where it can draw dust.

There obviously were problems,if you read the report, with respect to administration that increased the cost, with respect to approach, with respect to dealing with private contractors at the time. We are told that these problems have now been corrected. Hopefully, they have been.gut I think that they deserve to be examined in light of the report which the council commissioned itself and which was conducted by a very well respected and very impartial chai~an, the former Chief Magistrate of the Province of Newfoundland, former Magistrate Hugh O'Neil. MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please!

The han. member's time has elapsed. MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr.Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.TULK: Mr. Speaker, I want to, if I could, under this heading in the concurrence debates, talk about the Transportation Department which,! understand, is one of the headings that we are discussing. I would like to,perhaps,look at it in relation to some of the things that were said this year in the Throne Speech and the contradictory way that propaganda by this government is being handled.

In real practice what is happening in the Department of Transportation is not at all related to the kinds of things that were being said in the Throne Speech. 3057

April 26,1983 Tape No. 1406 ah-2 MR.TULK: But before I do that, Mr. Speaker, before I get into that aspect of Transportation and that aspect of the Throne Speech1I would like to congratulate the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) on an excellent speech, the ten minute speech that he just gave. I am sure he will be back at it again~ I would also like to comment on something,perhaps,that he said about the member for Mount Scio (1·1r. Barry) . MR. HOUSE: Do you agree with li.im?

MR.TULK: Well, I think, Mr.Speaker, if we look at the member for Mount Scio there may be two or three ways of looking at just what it is the member for Mount Scio is trying to do. My friend from Bellevue suggests that he is having it both ways, that one day he is criticizing the government and the next day he is with them.

I think I should suggest to the member for Bellevue, and we would have to have a discussion on this, obviously,and there is no doubt that we will if ever the need arises,but I would have to suggest to the member for Bellevue that perhaps what is_happening is that the member for Mount Scio is finding it increasingly frustrating to sit on that side of the House.

The government will probabl~ as they have done with just about everyone else in this Province, will probably force him to break ranks with them.And I kno~ ··being the member that he is, that he probably sees them at certain times as doing things that are contrary to the very principles that he believes in. He may be trying at this point in time to make the biggest political decision of his life, that is whether he is going to 3058

April 26, 1983 Tape 1407 EC - 1 MR. TULK: stay with the government or leave it. He may believe also that he was elected as a P.C. -I do not know what the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) believes - he may believe that he was elected as a P.C. and should stay as a P.C. With regard to a number of people talking about him leaving the government, I think it would be a wise decision for the member for Mount Scio indeed to leave the government. A lot of people in this Province are now saying that he should - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

TULK: - that he should perhaps sit as an Independent in this Province or perhaps even join another party. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that he would be credible in any party and I know that on this side of the House, in spite of what the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) says - and I am sure the member for Bellevue would agree with this - that if he decided at some point that he wanted to join another party in this Province, we would certainly have to have a discussion on this side of the House about that. MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) over there. MR.

TULK: Now, there is a member in this House that we will not have, the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin). If that is one of the conditions of the member for Mount Scio coming over, I am sorry, the member for Mount Scio is going to have to stay over there . because we are just not going to downgrade this party. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. TULK: We are not going to downgrade this party with the member for Burin - Placentia West, no doubt. 3059

April 26, 1983 Tape 1407 EC - 2 MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, to come back to the Throne Speech, the things that were said in the Throne Speech and the things that are now being said in concurrence and the kinds of answers that you get in Estimates Committees in this House, I will, if I might - I know I do not have much time but I will, if I might, just quote from the Throne Speech a quote that was made, I suppose ?rinted by the Premier - it sounds like him - and put in the mouth of His Honour in this House.

It says, "My government views with deep concern the substantial drop in federal funds being used in this Province to assist in developing the infrastructure essential for growth and prosperity." Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House share that same kind of feeling. If you apply that principle to Newfoundland as it pertains to the federal government, if the federal government is not giving enough funds to certain parts of this Province, then certainly I think it is fair to say, as my friend from Bellevue (Mr. Callan) said, and rightly so, and as my friend from Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush) clearly stated the other day, I think it is very clear that if you are of a certain political stripe in this Province, if you cannot be blackmailed as the government tried to do with Bellevue in a by-election in which the member for Bellevue 3060

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1408 SD - 1 MR. TULK: was re-elected, if you cannot be blackmailed into voting for this government, then the word 'equality' that the Premier keeps throwing around does not apply, it only applies if you see things the way that the Premier s~es them. He also goes on to say in the Throne Speech that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians know that the lifeblood and very essence of this Province is our rural personality. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is a good philosophy again but what happens in practice? What happened in my district this year with the Department of Transportation?

What happened to the people in Labrador with transportation this year? Well,we saw the people of Fogo Island paying seventeen cents a pound for airfreight. Forevery pound of freight that went to Fogo Island this year by air they paid seventeen cents a pound more,subsidy. In other words, a block of margarine went up seventeen cents a pound, probably more than that. A grapefruit - I think my friend from Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) can verify whether I am right or wrong - in Labrador this Winter went from·­ was it thirty-six cents to $1.23 a pound? MR. WARREN: MR. TULK: One dollar and twenty-eight cents.

One dollar and twenty-eight cents a pound. As a result of the transportation system. MR. WARREN: Each. MR. TULK: Each! That is each .• One grapefruit went from thirty-six cents a pound to $1.28 a pound as a result of the transportation system that is in place in this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: One grapefruit, you do not sell grapefruit by the pound. MR. TULK: One grapefruit, you do not sell grapefruit - according to the han. gentleman's education you do not sell grapefruit by the pound, you sell them one, 3061

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1408 SD - 2 MR. TULK: two, three, four, five, six or whatever you want. Have you got that? Now, Mr. Speaker, that is equality, that is the type of equality that the Premier of this Province is proud of talking about. That is exactly it, that is what he sees. Mr. Speaker, if we wanted to we could look at,too, the kind of thing that is now going on with the teachers.

The same kind of thing comes through in the Estimates Cornrni ttees, it comes through in this House,that if you do not agree with this Premier, if you do not see things the way that he sees them, then you are treated as an inferior. And that isit exactly, Mr. Speaker.

I believe that if you look at all of the issues in transportation, in problems that we may have with the federal government, in problems that we may have with municipalities, in problems that we have with the teachers, in problems that we have with the trade unions, I think that is exactly the problem that we are having, that you are seeing people who ~re as equal as the Premier and his government, you are seeing them react to being treated as inferiors. That is exactly, I believe, the central issue in the teachers' strike or the teachers' lockout. 3062

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1409 NM - 1 MR, TULK: I consider it to be a lockout. It does not matter how you define it, the fact is that our schools are closed and they are closed as a result of the attitude of this government. This government has treated teachers as inferior. The Premier said to them, his negotiating team said to them - the government has a choice, either they have to stand up and call the negotiating team of the NTA liars, or they have to stand up and admit that what they say is true.

The negotiating team from the government side said, "You really do not have the confidence of the teachers, you really do not have anything, so you take what we say or you take nothing." That is the problem, Mr. Speaker, that is the problem with equality in transportation. To come back again to my own district, the Premier has told them in no uncertain terms that because you elected a Liberal you cannot have what you should have. You cannot have what you should have. Now, Mr. Speaker, what is he talking about?

Is he talking about developing this Province or is he talking about playing really little, childish political games? Mr. Speaker, if you look at Fogo Island you are looking at one of the outstanding organizations in this Province in the form of the Fogo Island Co-operative, one of the outstanding organizations in this Province, and yet, Mr. Speaker, today they are pulling fish over twenty miles of gravel road and that has come about as a result of a change in the ferry schedule. And I sat in Committee with the member for Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush), we he~d up the Committee for six hours because we were asking the minister to produce a list of what his road work was going to be in this Province this year. I kept asking himr When will you give a commitment to the people of Fogo Island that you are going to pave that 3063

April 26, 1983 MR. TULK: commitment. Tape No. 140.9 road? He cannot give any lie does not knm·z how much money he has got. Be does not know what he is goL~g to do this year. He does not knot-r whether he is going to do a mile of road or ten., NM -2 Yet, Mr. Speaker, that same group of people this year produced 16 million pounds of fish, $30 million, new dollars, not old dollars, not dollars they were playing around with, ne~v dollars for the Canadian economy. And the Minister of Fisheries (.Mr. Morgan) stands in this B:ouse and talks about the quality of fish,.

Those same people on Fogo rsland have their own quality control progrannne .in place but what happens Mr. Speaker, when you taJce that fish and drive i..t over twenty miles of gravel road? What happens to it? Well,we know, the quality decreases substantially. And yet, as I have said, the Province chooses to ignore the transportation system of that Island. MR; SP·EAKER (Aylward'}: member's time has elapsed. Affairs. 3064 Order, please·~ The hon. The han. Minister of Municipal

April 26, 1983 Tape 1410 PK - 1 MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, first of all, in addressing the Budget estimates in my department I do wish to emphasize that our government in its effort to assist the municipalities of this Province has one of the most generous grants and subsidy systems in the whole of Canada. SOME HON. MEMBEBS: Hear, hear! MRS. NEWHOOK: And , Mr. Speaker, you will note from the estimates that our government this year will be paying out something like $68 million in grants and subsidies. And I would also at this time like to make a com?arison.

If we we~e to go back,aay,eleven years or twelve,maybe, no,further back than that, and we were to look at the amount of subsidies paid out by the De~ertment of Municipal Affairs, by the government, it was at that time $1.7 million. If we look at that same figure today, Mr. Speaker, we are now paying out, just eleven years later, $21 million in subsidies. And this, Mr. Speaker, I would like to stress,has been during the administration of the P.C. Government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr.

Spe~ker, it is also very significant to note that today we have somewhere near three­ quarters of our municipalities with water andjor sewer wholly or in part or in the process, and the larger part of this progress has taken place during the past ten years. Now, Mr. Speaker, just for a minute or so may I just say a few words about the grant system in my department. I think everyone is aware , all of the members in this han.

House are aware that every municipality receives a general municip~l assistance grant, and this grant is made up of three components• One is the population component 1 the second is a social assistance component, and the third is a road mileage component, and we pay out $3,200 per mile 3065

April 26, 1983 Tape 1410 PK - 2 MRS. NEWHOOK: of every local road in every municipality. Then,of cou;t:se,there is the tax incentive grant. Now,this is an additional grant which is payable to our municipalities which have the property 3066

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1411 MJ - l MRS. NEWHOOK: tax in place and it matches a percentage of every dollar of revenue collected,including grants in lieu of taxes. And, Mr. Speaker, we have,in addition, a street paving and construction grant and this grant is on a cost shared basis,where the government pays out 60 per cent of the cost and the municipality has to find the other 40 per cent.

Also, we have a fire fighting grant and this programme is designed for the purpose of fire fighting equipment 1 whereby our government pays 75 per cent of the fire fighting equipment and the municipality is required to pay 25 per cent. Another 75/25 cost sharing programme that we have is for the provision of new garbage disposal sites and there,again,my department pays out 75 per cent for new sites. Also, it can extended to equipment and other things in connection with garbage disposal sites. And, Mr.

Speaker, I could talk about other grants,such as the recreation grant which is distributed to municipalities for municipal and regional stadiums. And also we have a preliminary engineering studies grant related to proposed municipal projects and feasibility studies,and we have this grant which is distributed amongst municipalities in our Province year after year. And w~ also have an emergencies assistance grant. And, Mr. Speaker, this is provided to all municipalities regardless.

Ifthey are PC or Liberal or whatever they might be,every municipality that is in financial need, a need that they cannot cope with, a need that they have not provided for in their budgets, something extraordinary 1 we have this emergency fund and it is, like I say, distributed 3067

April 26, 1983 Tape No . 1411 MJ - 2 MRS. NEWHOOK : on a need basis regardless of what the colour code of the municipality might be. MR. HODDER : We are a colour code? MRS . NEWHOOK : MR. HODDER : was Tory . MR . DINN: MR . TULK : MR . DINN : MRS . NE~VHOOK : Well, I mean red or blue . It was my understanding that green No , green is NDP, envy. No, no. Green is Tory . Red is Liberal . Mr . Speaker , I would like to point out that apar t from 311 municipalities our department is also resp onsi ble, through our water community services~ for the provision of reque sted services to fortv local service district s.

And these local se rvice districts have been established for the purpose of providing some services to unincorporated areas such as water, maybe some sewer, garbage collection , fire protection , and it could be street lighting,but just a number of servi ces. 3068

April 26, 1983 Tape 1412 EC - 1 MRS. NEWHOOK: Also, we are responsible for funding forty-six of the old water and sewerage disposal committees. These were set up a number of years ago and because they are incorporated, of course, they are still eligible for funding under our community water services programme. Our department maintains thirty-nine industrial water systems servicing mainly fish plants but, of course, some of them do supply water to municipalities as well. Mr.

Speaker, I do take issue with some of our members in the Opposition who feel that the Liberal districts are being discriminated against with regard to capital projects. I would like to emphasize, Mr. Speaker, that we do try to provide money on a need basis and we also· try to continue systems that are in the ground and where we have a lot of infrastructure underneath the ground and no services are operating. So we try to continue on these systems until we do get some connections, some hookups from that particular service. l1R. HODDER: Are you going to table your list? MRS. NEWHOOK: Naturally. And of course, Nr.

Speaker, with $127 million worth of requests from municipalities and since the great majority of these are from our forty­ four P.C. districts, it is only natural, of course, with only eight Liberal districts that there is not as much money going into those eight as is going into the other fo~ty-four. But, Mr. Speaker, if we were,say,to look at the Liberal districts with regard to capital projects: Let us .take Eagle River. Now, the municipalities in Eagle River are 90/10 funds. I am not going to take credit for all of the money that is going to be spent in 3069

April 26, 1983 Tape 1412 EC - 2 MRS . NEWHOOK : Eagle River . I am just saying that in Eagle River this year there are plans to spend something like $5 million to $6 million in water and sewer projects, of which our government provides 10 per cent and my department implements the programmes . And not only that, we have to provide that money up front and it is not until the projects are near completion that we are refunded the federal government share. So we do have to provide for • 3070

.:. April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1413 NM - 1 MRS. NEWHOOK : these monies in our budget~ Mr. Speaker. Then,of course,we have the other part of Labrador where water and sewer in the main is provided through the Native People's Agreement. MR. NEARY: 90 per cent again. MRS. NEWHOOK: Yes. I admit that. And I am very happy. I am happy that the federal government is providing that 90 per cent. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas} : Order, please: A point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. member is speaking in this debate, Mr.

Speaker, and has been subjected to continual harrassment and rude interruptions, as well as being against the rule~ by the two members there opposite, particularly the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk), and I think that if they cannot observe the rules of common politeness and decency they should be called to order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: That is not a point of order • . The hon. minister can handle herself, Mr. Speaker, and we were interrupting with a couple of very pertinent questions and the minister was answering.

And I do not think the minister was answering to the satisfaction of the Governme.nt House Leader (Mr. Marshall), that is why he got upset and got up on this point of order. The minister was being too honest and too straightforward for the hon. gentleman who has a buttoned-down mind. So I would submit, Mr. Speaker,we agree that the rules say that every member has a right to be heard in silence but in every parliament in the world, Mr. Speaker, certain interruptions are allowed,especially if the questions are pertinent to the topic under discussion. 3071

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1413 NM - 2 MR. TOBIN: You had a different tune when we were interrupting you. MR. NEARY: No, but you are rude. MR. TOBIN: And you are ignorant. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : Order, please! To that point of order there is no point of order ,but the han. minister is entitled to be heard in silence. now elapsed. Opposition. MR. NEARY: The han. minister's time has The han. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, first of all I have to observe that two of my colleagues who spoke earlier in this concurrence debate made some very interesting comments.

As a matter of fact,they expressed opposite points of view concerning the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barryl. I was rather startled, taken back, to hear the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) say that the han. gentleman would not he welcome because the people of Newfoundland and Labrador are fed up with people crossing the House. And then he went on to give various other reasons as to why he would be opposed to the member for Mount Scio joining the Liberal caucus. And then I was further surprised to hear the view of the - MR. TULK: President of the Party. MR. NEARY: - President of the Party, the member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulk) who said that he would welcome the member for Mount Scio, I believe, with open arms. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is rather interesting,to hear the opposing viewpoints on the member for Mount Scio. I do not know how the vote would go but if that is any indication, Mr. Speaker, I would have to say that the caucus would be divided. 3072

April 26, 19 83 Tape No . 1413 Nl-1 - 3 Z.1R . NEARY : But if I was in the position , first of all r would have to say to my two colleagues that the very first thing that has to happen is tha t the member for Mount Scio (Mr . Barry) has to make up his own mind . He has to ma~e up his mind , Mr . Speaker . But I was rather 3073

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1414 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: interested in hearing their comments and I am sure that han. members must have been surprised to hear the opposite points of view -there are two viewpoints. I must say that I learned something new in the House today when I heard my two colleagues comment on the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) - MR. TOBIN: Now tell us about Basil Power. Tell us about his letter. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman has not taken his course in good manners yet, I see. Mr. Speaker,the question that I want to put to the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins)-he is not in his seat,but it has to do with the Premier's apartment. As han. members know the taxpayers of this Province are paying $10,800 a year for an apartment for the Premier. The first time in our history, the first time, to my knowledge,that it has happened anywhere in Canada, it is just not done anywhere outside of Newfoundland, where we shamed the Premier into leaving Mount Scio house, that beautiful palace up there in the Garden of Eden and then he left there and asked the Treasury Board to approve an apartment for him. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I want to know under what authority did the government rent an apartment for the Premier? And I would like to know where in the estimates, I have gone through the estimates with a fine tooth comb, I would like to know where in the estimates money is allocated to pay for the Premier's apartment? I hope the Minister of Finance is listening to me or the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young), who has not been in his seat for the last 3074

·..I April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1414 JV - 2 MR. NEARY: couple of days. I notice that the attendance on the government side of the House today is very, very poor indeed. I could have called a quorum anytime I wanted to this afternoon. MR. TULK: Demoralized they are. MR. NEARY: They seem to be demoralized, they are hardly fit to live with in the House these days, they are testy, they are jumpy and irritable and it is a job to keep them in their seats,Mr. Speaker. The next thing we are going to have to get areseatbelts, because it is up to the government members to keep a quorum in this House. 1-1R. TULK: seatbelts.

MR. NEARY: Tell them the definition of I thought we made seatbelts compulsory in this Province,Mr. Speaker. Do we have to make seatbelts compulsory for the government members? Because it is up to the government to maintain a quorum in this House and not the Opposition. Mr. Speaker,I want to come back to my question to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), and I hope the minister will come in now when I take my seat, if he is listening, and tell me where I can find the money for the Premier's apartment in the estimates? If it is lumped in with something else,Mr.

Speaker,I would suspect that that is illegal.Because the Cabinet or Treasury Board may have given the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) the authority to rent office space for government employees, Mr. Speaker, but if Treasury Board authorized the Minister of Public Works to rent an apartment for the Premier ,then that is a horse of a different color, that is a different matter, that has to be listed as a separate item in the 3075

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1414 JV - 3 MR. NEARY: estimates, otherwise there is no authority for it. I am asking the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) now to give me the authority for 3076

April 26, 1983 Tape 1415 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: paying for an apartment for the Premier,the first time in the history of Newfoundland. Where can I find in the estimates th .e money that is allocated to pay for this apartment? The people of this Province have a right to know, Mr. Speaker. They have a right to know. I am willing to take my seat if the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) wants to come in and provide me with the answe~ or any other hon. gentleman. We are now doing estimates, we have a right to know where taxpayer money is being spent, how it is being spent, Mr. Speaker. MR.

CARTER: Tell us about Roaches Line. MR. NEARY: Yes, I could tell the hon. gentleman about Roaches Line. A gift, that was a gift that the former Premier gave to the people of this Province, a gift. MR. TOBIN: How many acres of land? MR. CARTER: Where did he get it? MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman said, 'Where did he get it?' If I were the hon. gentleman instead of asking a question l~ke that, if I were the han. gentleman I would go down in the Registry Office, as I have done ,and do a search,and if he does not know how to do a search himself get somebody to show him how to do a search, I would gladly let him have my secretary, do a search and he will get the answer. But the hon. gentleman in his simplicity should not ask leading questions, Mr. Speaker, because the hon. gentleman may be embarrassed in his simplicity. MR. TOBIN: How many acres of land? MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, that is the question that I would like to see answered. You know, I could ask for a quorum call,I suppose,while I am waiting for the Minister of Finance to come back and give me the answer, but if the hon. gentleman would just come to his seat I would not ask for . a quorum call. So, Mr. Speaker, I want to know and the people want to know where this money is covered up 3077

April 26, 1983 Tape 1415 PK - 2 MR. NEARY : in the estimates, in the Budget? I have not been able to find it. It is probably in there somewhere, it is camouflaged , it is covered up under some other vote. They cannot lump it in with rental of office space. It is not office space, it is sleeping quarters. It is a private apa~tment paid for by the taxpayers' of this Province. And . Mr. Speaker,we have every right to have all the details of where that vote is in the estimates? I am still waiting for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), he is back from Flordia. The old red rooster is back.

We heard him again this morning insulting the teachers, . making provocative statements about the teachers dispute and again last night. The old red rooster cannot resist trying to intimidate the teachers, Mr. Speaker. I still say though,as bad as he is,that if the Premier had stayed out of the ne~otiations and left it up to the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge} or the President of Treasury Board (Dr. Collins) or the Minister of Manpower ().l'!r. Dinnl even 1 that we might have had an a.greement by now, if the Premier had not stuck his nose 3078

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1416 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: into it. Because we know what the weakness is on the part of the Premier, we know he has a great character weakness. The weak point is that he is a very poor administrator and he cannot negotiate, he cannot negotiate with anybody. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): and Manpower. MR. DINN: Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. The hon. Minister of Labour Mr. Speaker, I would like to expand upon what the hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs (.Mrs.Newhook) was saying with respect to grants to municipalities and certain provisions for different municipalities in the Province. Mr. Speaker, it is interesting when one hears public comment by mayors and councillors in the Province about the different grant structures that are available to them through Municipal Affairs. It is not very often pointed out the amount of dollars that goes out to different municipalities.

And today, because I am not only Minister of Labour and Manpower and a member of the government but a member for Pleasantville, I would like to go through some of the provisions that have been made by the minister with respect to the city of St. John's,because I do not think we are very often made aware of the amounts o.f dollars that go out from just one department in government with respect to the capital city, the city of St. John's. Now for the hon. member's. benefit, with respect to rental accommodations, Public Works and Services has some $5 million in there for rentals and I am sure when the. han.

Minister of Public Works and Services (.Mr. Youngl was at th.e committee he provided that a_nswer, no problem for the hon .. member if he had attended.that committee. So, you know, that is a 3079

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1416 SD - 2 MR. DINN: bit of a dead issue. But I would just like to go through if I could some of the grants and some of the different provisions that have been made by the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) over the past few years with respect to the city of St. John's,because it is not often made public and probably today through this Government Services debate we can get some of the provisions out. And I will just go back a few years, say 1976, when some $11,760,000 was provided to the city.

I do not know if hon. members realize it, but over the past five or six or seven years in the city of St. John's we went through several crisis. One, han. members will remember, was the fact that the capital city of Newfoundland and Labrador ran short of water when there was not enough water provided by Windsor Lake to supply the city. They had the capability of something like 15 million or 16 million gallons per day but that was not enough to provide the city with the capability of providing water in the city.

And we had, for example, decrees by the city council and a special board that was set up that you were not allowed to water lawns or you were not allowed to use exces ·sive water, you were not allowed to leave you taps running and that kind of thing. It happened somewhere around 1975. The Summer of 1975 was a particularly difficult year with respect to water in the city of St. John's. An agreement at that point in time was reached with the federal government whereby some $38 million was provided for the city of St.

John's and area - it provides water now to the town of Mount Pearl and is providing water to the town of Paradise, but some $38 million was provided through. a programme developed between the federal and provincial governments to provide $38 million for the Bay Bulls Big Pond water system in the city of st. John's. 3080

April 26,1983 Tape No. 1417 ah-1 MR.DINN: That is just one item. If we want to look at the main sewer systems in the city of St. John's, one can look at the Rennie's River trunk sewer system, the Waterford Valley relief trunk sewer system, the Northeast trunk sewer system, the Pleasantville trunk sewer system and so on. By the way, Mr. Speaker, for your information, a lot of the overflow from the Northeast of St. John's went into Quidi Vidi Lake and that became a very, very polluted lake over the years.

One system in particular came off the former Pepperrell Air Force Base down there, the North Atlantic supply division for the US Air Force, and it did not have the capacity to handle the sewer from the Northeast that flowed into that system, so we put in a new system. As a matter of fact, I think hon. members would be amazed at what has been done in the city with respect to sewers, for example, a hugh tunnel that comes from the head of the lake right through underneath the penitentiary and down to Temperance Street at a cost of about $7 million, just for that one item.

So there has been about $50 million in sewer systems and trunk sewers, there has been $38 million for the regional water system and, of course, that was just for the system and did not include the piping that would supply water to Mount Pearl and the ongoing provisions that are made by the minister to supply water to the town of Paradise. So I think we should reflect every one in a while on what things the government is providing, as it should, for the capital city of Newfoundland and Labrador, the city of St. John's.

Now just in reviewing, I took a little time between different sets of negotiations and that kind of thing to try to find out what basically has been provided to the city of St. John's. I think hon. members should be aware that whilst the city members 3081

April 26,1983 Tape No. 1417 ah-2 MR. DINN: do not get a lot of credit for the work that they do, like Your Honour., they spend quite considerable amounts of time in attempting to find out what the needs of the city are and attempting to impress upon the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook) those needs and indeed to get some of those needs satisfied. There was an area in the Minister of Finance's (Dr.Collins) district on the Southside of the city of St. John's which lacked a water system and the provincial government i'ient on a 50/50 programme to supply water to the Southside of the city of St. John's.

The need was identified, there was a problem over there of pollution - MR.CALLAN: thing for Bellevue. MR. DINN: k~d we cannot get one The hon. member for Bellevue (Mr.Callan) now is interrupt~ng again, Mr. Speaker. The fact of the matter is that'at that point in time there was a programme whereby very little revenues came back from 3052

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1418 MJ - 1 MR. DINN: from municipalities with respect to paying for water and sewer systems. The Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation basically financed the systems and in most years the Minister of Municipal Affairs made grants available to pay off the debt of the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation. That was not the way that the Southside was · financed~ it was financed 50 per cent dollars,cash on the barrel head from the city and 50 per cent from the Province. As a matter of fact, I am sure that the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs.

Newhook) tomorrow, with her 310 municipalities in the Province,would welcome a programme whereby she would only have to pay half of the water and sewer systems that she puts in in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. But that was a deal that was worked out, it is now in place and it works,and the people on the Southside of the City of St. John's are relatively happy with that system. But, Mr. Speaker, just to go through a couple of the past years, you know,before 1978 in this Province the City of St. John's got no capital grant whatsoever from the provincial government. MR. CALLAN: (Inaudible) in 1971. MR.

DINN: Well, in 1971 the City of St. John's got nothing from the former, former government only a lot of abuse from the former, former administration, Well, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member wants to talk about pork barrelling, if he wants to reflect back to 1968 and talk about pork barrelling, the only thing the City of St. John's got from that administration when that party was in power was abuse, 'the dirty nerchants.t All you could hear was the papers were no good; the people were no good~ l-1R. CALLAN: Oh, come on~ MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, that is true, lt is 3083

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1418 MJ -2 ~1R. DINN: in Hansard. I can pick up a book and relay to the hon. member what was said about the people and the council in the City of St. John's,but right now that is not the case. There is a great attempt to treat St. John's as fairly as we treat other municipalities. They do. not get as much in grants. The: hen. minister would tell the hon. House that1for example1on a dollar for dollar basis the City of St. John's gets forty-five cents on the dollar up to $2 million,and after that gets twenty cents on the dollar for every dollar that they c.ollect in revenue.

So there is a little bit of discrepancy there but the City of St. J_ohn's does not complain much in that if the people of the City of St. John's knew of all the things that are prcwided just through that one department headed by the ~tinister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) who, I am happy to say, is probably one of the best if not the best Minister of Municipal Affairs ever1 a.nd I say 3084

April 26, 1983 Tape 1419 EC - 1 MR. DINN: that, knowing that I was the Minister of Municipal Affairs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: So the minister can take that as a compliment or whatever way she wants to take it. But the city of St.

John's, for exarnple,in 1982 - 1983 will receive $6,947,920 in various grants and subsidies: in lieu of motor taxes, for example, $10,000; Bowring Park $10,000; Mundy Pond Urban Renewal debt charges $128,915; Mundy Pond NIP debt charges $99,000; Rennie's River trunk sewer - as I said earlier, that debt has to be paid off now and that is paid at the rate of $89,615 for just this year alone; the Avalon Arena debt charges $24,724; paving this year, principal and interest 1 $336,252; Fort Amherst water and sewer system - MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! The han. member's time has elapsed. MR.

DINN: Well, Mr. Speaker, maybe I will take it up a little later on because I think people should know. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker-, I am some proud his time is up. The barrage of figures that was corning across there was enough to turn your head. Mr. Speaker, I would like first of all to reply to some of the comments that the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) made. I want to say right off that I believe that the Minister of Municipal Affairs, unlike many of the ministers on that side of the House, means well.

I think she tries to do a good job. It is unfortunate that she is burdened by the government 3085

April 26, 1983 Tape 1419 EC - 2 MR. TULK: of which she is a part and for which she has to share some of the responsibility. Mr. Speaker, the minister started off to say that the capital works projects of her department are determined by need,and then went on to say in the most illogical fashion possible that really since you had forty-four Tory districts - I believe she used the word 'Tory', I am not sure, she could have used the word P.C. -that since you had forty-four Tory districts versus eight Liberal districts, it is obvious that they should get more, Mr.

Speaker, and that they should get the lion's share of what was in the budget. Now, how do you connect that with a claim that her projects are portioned according to the need of a district? Mr. Speaker, I would tell the minister that what she has really said and what her government really said is that need is determined according not to the need of the people in the area but according to whether indeed you are a Tory district or whether you are a Liberal district. Mr. Speaker, I would love to hear the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs.

Newhook) lay out the criteria by which she apportions capital works projects in this Province, and I would love to hear her tell that to the people in my district, particular in places such as Clarke's Head, Davidsville, Gander Bay South, Main Point, Carmanville, Ladle Cove, Aspen Cove and Fogo, 30B6

April 26, 1983 Tape 1420 PK - l MR. TULK: where you can no longer get a permit to build a house because of the sewerage problems that are on that Island. Two years or three years ago it was found that indeed 75 per cent of the water, I believe - the minister can correct me if I am wrong - 75 per cent of the water that the people in Fogo, for example, were drinking was probably contaminated. I would like for the minister .to tell the people of the town of Fogo that indeed she is proportioning the capital works of her department according to the needs of the people.

I would love for her to tell the people of Joe Batt's Arm, Mr. Speaker, that she is doing that and tell it to the people of Stagg Harbour, Island Harbour and, indeed, in Tilting. In Tilting I understand - I have never seen the written correspondence but I believe it to be correct because I have no reason to doubt the Community Council and the people who serve on the Council in Tilting; a good P.C. place, by the way - that they were promised by this government that indeed their problems with water and sewer would be taken care of. Mr.

Speaker, they are still sitting in Tilting today waiting for that problem to be solved. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to come back again to a theme that I have used in this House, and I want to use it for the minister in particular in relation to what she has said in her few words. Because, Mr.

Speaker, I want to tell her and I want to keep telling this government - and we have to keep telling this government in the hope that it will eventually get through their heads - that when you put dollars into a place like Fogo Island, like Musgrave Harbour, like Carmanville and so on, you are putting dollars into a place where people should be encouraged to live rather than discouraged. Mr. Speaker, this government does not do that. 3087

April 26, 1983 Tape 1420 PK - 2 MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the minister is completely wrong, is completely off track when she says that our capital works projects are apportioned according to need. I would also like for the minister, if we have time in this Concurrence Debate - and I know she will do this; unlike the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) I know she is going to do it - I would also like for her to tell us when she is going to table in this House the list of capital works projects for this year.

I believe this minister will do it, unlike the Minister of Transportation who probably has the biggest pork barrelling department in the government, the minister who moved, for example, $4 million out of Bonavista North into his own district, blamed it on the Management Committee, and then told us in the Estimates Committee that we will have to wait for a new agreement in order to get that brought back into Bonavista North. That is what he told us and that is what he did to one of his own members. Mr. Speaker, I want to also make a comment on the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary), who I think he was perplexed by the fact that the member for Bellevue (~rr. Callan) and myself were debating the merits of having the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) cross this House. Mr. Speaker, I want to say that I believe I could convince the Leader of the Opposition, and perhaps even the member for Bellevue, into saying that, yes, indeed we should do that, that we should allow the member for Mount Scio to cross this House. 3088

April 26, 1983 Tape No. 1421 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: He has to make up his mind. MR. TULK: Indeed he has got to make up his mind. r agree _with the member for Bellevue lMr. Callan) on that point. But I can tell the member for Hount Scio lMr