Manitoba Hansard — 7 June 1994 (Sitting 42, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-42

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Sessi on • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Holiourttble Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLlll No. 42 • 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, June 7, 1994 ISSN OS42-S492

NAME ASHI'ON, Steve BARRE'IT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CBRn..U Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Olen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louiee DBRKACH. Leonard, Hon. DEWAR. Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER. Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul BNNS, Hany, Hon. ERNST, 1"1Dl, Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Olen, Hon.

FRIESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Con stttueudes and PoUUc:al AII'IUatJon CONSTII'UENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.Roee Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Conconlia Arthur- Vinlen Steinbach Riel SLJames Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Woleeley OAUDRY, Neil OD.LESHAMMER. Harold. Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minnedosa CRscentwood Oimli HEL WER, Edward R. IUCKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATIB.JN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Man:el MACKINTOSH, Oonl MALOWAY,1"1Dl MANNESS, Clayton, Hon.

MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCORMICK. NoDDa McCltJUB,James,Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. P ALLIS TER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK. Darre n, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Hany STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St.

Johns Elmwood Monis Burrow s Sturgeon CRek Osborne Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway RossmeR Kirkfield Parle FlinFlon LaVeRndrye FortGany Swan River PARTY. NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

3124 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 7, 1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROU17NE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chair person of Committees ): Mr. Spea ker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturge on Creek (Mr. McAlpine ), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the att ention of honourable members to the gall ery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Tuxedo Park Elementary School, eighteen Grade 5 students under the direction ofMr. Claude Lemaire. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable First Minister (Mr. Ftlmon). Also this afterno on, from the Winkler Elementary School, we have thirty-two Grade 8 students under the direction of Mr. Plett. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Orchard).

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Mr. Speaker: Is there leave-! did not see the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek-to revert to Introduction of Bills? [agreed] Bill 206-- The Coat of Arms, Emblems and the Manitoba Tartan Amendment Act Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): I move, seconde d by the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacqu ay), that leave be given to introduce Bill 206, The Coat of Anns, Emblems and the Manitoba Tartan Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les annoiries, les embl�mes et le tartan du Manitoba), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Aerospace Industry Federal Initiatives Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Oppos itio n): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. A week ago yesterday I asked the Premier a question about rumoured layoffs at Bristol and, unfortunately, later last week we had it confirmed that 230 people, pursuant to The Employment Standards Act, were given layoff notices effective September 9, 1994.

These are high-paying jobs in our communities that represent a considerable investment in our province and in our econo my. At the time of the qu estion last Monday, I asked the Premier whether it was dealing with the fe deral government about any other alternatives for worlc for people at Bristol in the aerospace industry. On the same day, June 3, that the layoff notice was handed to the Bristol employees, there was indica tion that a sp ace pro gram would be established and work would be somewhat provided to Bristol along with othe r companies in Canada.

I wo uld like to ask the Premier : What alternatives are in place? Are there any alternatives in place ? How many people will be employed as a result of the fe deral space program, and can we

3125 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 1994 prevem these layoffs from taking place September 9, 1994? •

(1335) Bon. Gary Filinon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I have spoken both to local management and, indeed , even to Rolls Royce senior offi cials. We cannot prevent these layoffs from taking place in September. I know the Minister of Ind ustry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Downey) continues to work with Bristol, and to what extent is possible, we will be lobbying the federal governmem to ensure that we would in future be able to see other work in BristoL At the moment, as I indicated, the immediate picture is rather bleak with the combination of these layof fs in September due to the overall reduction in defence spending and more expected lay offs at the end of the year as a result of the federal Liberal governm ent 's cutbacks of the CF-5 renovations and renewals.

That will bring the total to in the order of 400 for the Bristol workf orce by the year end, as I understand it, which is not a very comfortable picture and certainly something that we would prefer not happen. Unf ortunately, there is not direct ability on our part to supp lement that. I do not have the figures on what the space program additional spending will produce for Bristol. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, in 1992, I asked the Premier and the Minister of Ind ustry a question dealing with the two or three alternatives that the previous fe deral government was looking at in terms of helicopters .

One alternative the fe deral government was looking at was the new helicopter program which they announced and then downs ized and then was cancelled by the new fede ral governme nt. The other alternative in 1992 was a retrofit of existing helicopter fleets, the Huey helicop ter, which I specifically asked the government about. The fe deral government has promised and has delivered on the promise to cancel the original new purchase of helicopters, but we stil l have the question of retrofitting the existing helicopter flee t.

Has Bristol and has the provincial government pursued with the fe deral government the original alternative that was bef ore the previous fe deral cabinet and which certa inly should be an alternative now to look at retrofitting helicopters and getting work to Bristol through retrofit programs in light of the cancellation of the original p urchase ? Mr. Filmon: The member asks whether or not Bristo l has pur sued that with the federal government. I am not in a position to answer on behalf of Bristol, but I will take the question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Ind ustry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Downey) insof ar as any initiatives or contacts that his depar tment may have had. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, workers in the total aerospace industry are extremely concerned about the employment situation, as we can all appreciate in this Chamber. In November of 1993, the Finance minis ter, Mr. Martin, sta ted that companies affected by reductions in aerospace contracts due to military decisions maybe have the ability to have conversion programs to create alternative work for the workers in those aerospace jobs. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Premier, and I would ask if the Premier has pursued with the fe deral Finance minister, Mr. Martin, any alternative employment in terms of conversion pro grams which were outlined in November of 1993, which the Bristol workers today fe el is essential so that the layoff notice that has been issued by Bristol can be prevented or precluded by alternative work at the plant. Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker, I, too, heard the statement by both the fe deral Minister of Fi nance and the fe deral Minister of Employment to the effect that they would be working on things that would convert the aerospace indu stry into other areas. In addition to the job losses that he ref erred to directly affecting Bris tol, there are the other job losses as a result of the $360 mill ion of work that would have come to Manitoba but was cancelled by the fed eral Liberal government on the EH-101 cancellation. That other number of jobs would, too, have been in the range of 400 additional jobs

June 7, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3126 for en ginee m, technicians and aerospace worlrem that will as wel l, of co urse, be seen as a tremendous loss in the industry over the next five yeam and more. Mr. Spe aker, I will take the question of any contacts with Mr. Martin or Mr. Axwortby on behalf of the Industry, Trade and Tourism department as notice on behalf of the minister. •

(1340) Physio therapy Services Reduc:ed Workweek Mr. Dave Chomiak (KDdonan): Mr. Speaker, we have been very concerned that the government is not in touch with the needs and the cares of patients as a result of their so-c all ed health reform for some time. Bill 22 is one example of where delays in surgery and delays in therapies could very much affect patient care.

My question to the Minister of Health: Can the minister ass ure this House that individuals such as stroke victims or other individuals requiring some kind of rehabilitation who require immediate attention from an oc cupational therapist or physio therapist will not have that therapy delayed by the imposition of Bill 22 at such places as Deer Lodge, St Boniface or Health Sciences Centre? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr.

Speaker, all of the hospitals in Manitoba and other health care facilities are aware of the concern expressed by government or the cond ition expressed by government that patient care ought not to be compromised in any action taken to put into effect the principles behind Bi11 22. I think the honourable member may be referring to a news

article from today in raising his question. I will use the same

article to quote Mr. Jim Rodger, spokesman for Health Sciences Centre. He said: If last year's experience is any indication, patients will not notice when worlcem there take their days off. This is essenti ally nothing more than a long weekend, so it has been transparent to the people who need us. I will ta ke notice of the specifics of the honourable membe r's question with respect to physiotherapy and therapy services, but as a general statement, it is my instruction to all the facilities that patient care not be negatively impacted by their observance ofBi1122. Mr. Chomiak : Mr.

Speaker, will the minister give us his absolute assurance that a patient who is unfortunate enough to have a stroke and require rehabilitation over a four-day weekend, that is now being forced to be taken in some institutions, will not have that therapy del ayed7-because the minister knows even a del ay of one day can have an impac t on an individual 's therapy and rehabilitation as a result of stroke. Can the minister give his absolute assurance that delay will not occur? Mr. McCrae: I want the honourable member to know that I understand the circumstances that stroke victims find themselves in.

If I was a stroke victim, I could only be very, very glad that we do not have an NDP government here in Manitoba. The reason I say that, Mr. Speaker, is the sweeping nature of NDP reaction to budget realities in other parts of the country, including here in Manitoba when they were in office. I have a very clear recollection of what happened in my own community of Brandon, where, in the name of he alth re form, nothing wa s done except the permanent closure of 42 beds at the hospital in Brandon-absolutely nothing else done and they called that health care reform.

That is not the app roach that we are using in Manitoba. We are using a phased approach which pays careful attention to the needs of the patients of the system here in Manitoba. That is whom we work for in Manitoba, the patients, and those are the people we serve and will continue to serve. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, we ask a serious question; the minister takes a cheap political shot. He sounds more and more like the former minister every day in his answem.

My final supplementary is: Will the minister try to answ er the question, a very serious question I asked him 7 Will he give us his absolute certainty that an individual who is unfortunate enough to suffer a stroke and require rehabilitation will not be delay ed as a resul t of the gover nme nt's imposition on these institutions of Bill 227

31 27 LEGISLA11VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June7, 1994 Mr. McCrae : Mr. Speaker, it is not a cheap po litical shot to ask tbe honourable member to go along with what his Leader said. His Leader was tbe one who said publicly that he would be happy to defend the policies of tbe NDP govermnent in Ontario. So I say, let him defend, paying a deputy minister $140, 000 a year while he presides over the closure of 5,000 acute beds. Let him defend that Let him debate that. Point of Order Mr. Chomiak : I believe the minister made an error. It is his own deputy minister that got a $4,000� Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

That is not a point of order. ••• Mr. McCrae: We thank tbe honourable member for that clarification, Mr. Speaker. I say to him that his soul mate and the soul mate of his colleagu es, Mr. Michael Deeter, is one that he can certainly ask for inform ation, if he is looking for inf ormation about how the New Democrats run health care systems in this country, and now, if he wants to ask questions about Connie Curran, he can go straight to the so urce. He can go to the head honcho in Canada for Connie Curran , Michael Deeter, who is the fo rmer soul mate of honourable members opposite . •

(1345) Oak Hammock Marsh Comparative Stud ies Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition ): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources . Mr. Speaker, when Ducks Unlimited was given ap proval to build their fa cility and set up Oak Hammock Marsh as it now is, they committed as a condition of their licence to do comparative studies each year fo r fo ur or five years in order to track the flora and fauna in that area and to ensure their commitmen t was kept to, which was that, according to the minister at that time, it would increase and certainly not decrease. Mr.

Speaker, I want to table correspondence from Ducks Unlimited dated Apri129 of this year in which the writer, who is the chief biologist for Ducks Unlimited specifically indicates that he does not think costly fonnal surveys are need ed, and he would propose to reinstate surveys in tbe affected area in a year or two. My question for the Minister of Natural Reso urces : Is this good enough for the minister?

Can he tell the House whether or not he had knowledge and has knowledge that they are not going to be doing the full comparative studies for the next year or two, and what is he going to do to ensure those studies are, in fact, done? Bon. Albert Drie dger (Minister of Natural Reso urces): Well, Mr. Speaker, I would hope that all members would endorse the great success story at Oak Hamm ock. Mr. Speaker, I can recall the ongoing que stions and criticism that took place in this House about the Oak Hammock pro ject, period, and the devastation that it would create on our waterfowl and our bird populations.

I just want to say that none of tbe predi ctions that basically were made at that time in the negative have come true, and I want to assure the member in tenns of the process that he makes reference to in tenns of doing some ongoing studies there, I will take the specifics as to the question as notice. I want to say we have had over 100, 000 people visit the establishment last year, and we have very positive and rave reviews in the positive for that. Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Speaker, part of knowing whether or not the positive reviews will include the commitments made to enhance the flora and fau na, which were commitments made by the minister at the time, as well as Ducks Unlimited, it is essential that the com parative studies be done for those fo ur or five years. That was part of the commitment , and that was the reason it was given.

My question for the minister, given that his predecessor in June of last year specifically stated: and we will continue-"we" because he was seeing himself as a part of Ducks Unlimited throughout this-doing them for another four or five years so that we can have the comparati ve

June7,1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3128 database that the member speaks about, is the minister saying that he is unaware that Ducks Unlimited is in fact not going to do this for the next year of two, Mr. Speaker, and why is he being so lax in enforcing the agree ment which was put into place as a condition of this development? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Spea ker, first of all, a commitment that was made by my colleague I will honour, and if the studies and reviews are required, they will take place. I want to tell the member as well that it is not just the issue of birds in the Oak Hammock area.

There is a general downward trend across the nation, and that is a much bigger concern of mine than it is specifically on the Oak Hammock case . I will give the undertaking that if the reviews are required under the agreem ent, they will take place. Mr. Edwards: My final question for the minister: This correspondence is correspondence which is now going to be sent to the citizens advisory committee, and it includes an outline and a plan of what they do intend to do, which is less than the full comparative study. Mr.

Speaker, my question for the minister: Once he has had a chance to review this, will he commit to members of this House that his comments in response to this will be tabled in this House so that we can be assured that the minister will not be so lax in the future in enforcing the commitments made by Ducks Unlimited and his predecessor in putting this project through? •

(1350) Mr . Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I have no difficulty in terms of tabling what the response is going to be. I might say, though, to all members of the House, that we have ongoing discussions and negotiations with Oak Hamm ock-not Oak Hammock alone but with the Ducks Unlimited peopl e-o n various projects thro ughout the province. In fact, I am very pleased with some of the projects that have taken place, one specifi cally in my area, the Rat River project which was done in conjunction with Ducks Unlimited.

So I sort of feel a little- I do not have to defend Ducks Unlimited, but I feel a little sensitive about the implications that Ducks Unlimited are not good corporate citizens for the province of Manitoba. 1bey are doing many, many worthwhile projects, and to date I have had no difficulty in worldng with them. I will take this under advisement, and I will table what ever response I have. MTS Yellow Pages Adult Video Advertisements Ms. Becky Barr ett (Wellingto n): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. On September 9, 1990, just two days before the last provincial election, the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) said, and I quote: Protecting Manitoba families has been an important part of my campaign. Our plans include cracking down on drug dealers, tighter restrictions on adult videos and measures to addre ss family violence. Can the Premier explain, in this International Year of the Family, why Manitoba's Crown owned Manitoba Te lephone System is flying in the face of his 1990 commitment and promoting the Union XXX adult video in a two-for-one coupon offer in 1be New Talking Ye llow Pages Coupon Book? Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Ad): Mr.

Spea ker, I will ta ke the principal component of the question as notice. I know Manitoba Telephone System has a code of ethics on which they operate and I am sure they are doing it, but I will check the specific incident that the member has raised and report back to the House . Ms. Barrett: The Group Against Pornography indicates that soft pornography like that rented and sold at these adult-only video stores can lead to addiction and the breakdown of relationships and families. Can the Premier indicate why Manitoba Teleph one System now seems to be indirectly sanctioning these sorts of businesses? Mr.

Findlay: Mr. Speaker, if the member had listened to the answer to the previous question, she would understand that I am not aware of the incident, and I will bring the specifics back to the House after I talk to Manitoba Telephone System.

31 29 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 1994 Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, when the minister talks to Manitoba Telephone System , would he also ask the Mani toba Telephone System why, after the previous govemment issued a directive in 1986 not to permit display adve rtising for escort services and mass age parlours, it appears that it is okay now for the Yellow Pages to permit display advertising for XXX adult videos, and not only display advertising, but in a two-for-one coupon book. Would he also investigate that, please? Mr.

Findlay: Now that the member has used up her three questions, if she has any more, would she please send them over to me? Child and Family Services Fee Collection Policy Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, when children are taken into care by a Olild and Family Services agency, the parents are expected to pay part of the costs based on an income threshold test. Can the Mini ster of Family Services confinn that a policy directive will be issued to Cllild and Family Services agencies so that collection from parents will be done on a more consistent basis across the province? Bon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, indeed, in this year's budgetary proce ss, we looked at the issue of collection of fees, and we will be trying to more aggressive ly pursue that option. Mr. Martindale: Can the ministe r con finn that the main change is that agencies will now be able to keep the revenue that they collect, which last year amounted to approx imately $1 50,000 to $200,000, and that the agencies will have total discretion on how they can spend the money? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Speaker, in the overall change in vision for child welfare in the pro vince of Manitoba, which indeed does talk about family support, family pr eser vation and family responsibility, we have changed the method by which we fund our Child and Family Services agencies so that indeed they do not have to take children into care in order to receive money, but that they can use some of those dollars that previously went for Level I children to refocus around keeping children in their families and providing that support for children.

One of the things that we have done along with that is try to more aggressively pursue collec tion of payment from parents who voluntarily place their children and that the agencies keep those dollars to deal with early intervention and early child develo pment and family supp ort. •

(1355) Mr. Martindale: Why is this minister trying to pursue this money more aggressi vely, as she says, at a time when families are under stress because their children are in care? Is it a cost benefit to the agency, given that the legal costs of going after the money may amount to more than the money that they collect? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, quite to the contrary , I think . Along with our vision-and I will state it again, because I think we are talking about a new way of doing child welf are in the province of Manitoba.

We are talking about family support, fa mily preservation and fa mily respons ibility. Along with parenting comes a responsibility. I know that from time to time, in many instance s, families for one reason or another are unable to cope with difficult circumstances surrounding their parental responsibi lity. When there is a voluntary placement into an agency where parents say, will you please take our child and do so me thing with th em, I think it is incumbent upon that fa mily, if they have the financial resources, to provide for some of that sup port. That is only fa ir to taxpayers in Man itoba.

Norwood Bridge Environmental Ucensing Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Spe aker, once again, this government has allowed The Environment Act to be ignored and broken , particularly the environmental impact assessment provisions. This time , it is the City of Winn ipeg that has begun constru ction at the Notwood bridge prior to even when the deadline fo r the public

June ?, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 30 environmental notice has been completed in the paper . For the Minister of Enviromnent: Why has the Department of Environment allowed this to happe n? Why is the City of Wmnipeg in such a rush to take down the ovelhead rail bridge that was to be used as a bike path and link the recreational walkway and the river? Bon. Glen Cum mings (M iniste r of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I will take the details of that question as notice. Ms. Cerilli: Mr.

Speaker, can the minister also inve sti gate why the overhead rail bridge which was to be used as part of the bike path was decommissioned and was not considered part of the developmental and environmental impact assessment? Can the minister describe what provisions there are going to be for a bike path and recreational walkway link between Churchill Drive and The Fmks7 Mr. Cum mings: Mr.

Speaker, I am a little puzzled about the conne ction that the member is attempting to make with environmental licensing for the redevelopment of the Norwood bridge, but I will certainly take the details of her question regarding the old bridge and the further questioning of the process for the Norwood bridge. I will take all that as notice. Ms. Cerilli: Mr.

Speak er, can the minister answer the question of why this governm ent is continuing to fund studies at the City of Winnipeg for the TransPlan 2010 transportation plan for the city of Winnip eg, when they are pushing ahead and allowing fo r the bridge co nstru ction prior to there being an environmental impact asses sment? Is this not a waste of money for the study from Urban Affairs to the City of Winnipeg for TransPlan 20107 Mr . Cumming s : Mr.

Speaker, I am dis appointed that once again the member would come to this Chamber raising conc erns, the same as she did suggesting a couple of weeks ago that there had been a second spill at Abitibi-Price. Her credibility in bringing questions of that speculative nature to this Chamber is not good. Mr. Speaker, this cit y does need quality ttansportation, and this governm ent is committed to making sure that is done in an environmentally sensitive way. Education System Clinical Services Ms. Avis Gray (Crescen twood): Mr.

Speaker, in a letter to the Wmnipeg School Division No. 1, the Winnipeg Regional Mental Health Council, a council established by the Department of Health, expressed extreme concern about the elimination or proposed elimination of Child Guidance positions, i.e., clinical services for children.

The letter goes on to say that the model of clinical services provided in the school is recognized in Winnipeg and other jurisdictions as one of the most cost-effective ways of providing services to children. • (1 400 ) My question to the Minister of He alth is: What are his plans to e nsure that accessible , available clinical services are provided to children so that these children do not end up costing the mental health system much more later on? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health ): Mr. Speak er, I am prepared to discuss further specifics at a later time.

I also point out to the honourable member that we have in Manitoba announced future programs for child and adolescent mental health services here in Wmnipeg and a number of other services throughout the province. Certainly in Winnipe g we are going to have a clinic. The Departments of Family Services and Health worldng together are working on programs to co- ordinate child and adolescent mental health services in the future. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, I have a supp lementary question to the same minister.

If the Minister of Health would perhaps attend one of the Winnip eg Re gional Mental Health Council meetings, the chair of that council will tell the minister that these new services he is now adding are not as efficient as providing the clinical services right in the school. One of the reasons is, it is discriminat ory to lower-income families.

31 31 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 1994 My question to the Minister of Health is: What are his plans to ensure that those clinical services are available in the school system so that we are doing early intervention and we are not spending many dollars later on when these children need more help? Mr. McCrae: Well, the honourable member has made some interesting points in her question. I would be happy to discuss the matter she raises with the chair of the Mental Health Council.

There is certainly no disagreement on my part that early intervention can be a very valuable tool in tenns of the long-tenn situation. I am quite happy to hear further proposals, further comments to be made by the Mental Health Council. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speak er, I have a final supplementaiy to the Minister of Health. Will the Minister of Health be prepared to sit down with the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) and the Minister of Education (Mr.

Manne ss) to talk about the kinds of services that are curre ntly not being offered by school divisions and to develop a plan to ensure these treatment services, these early intervention services will be availabl e? Will he be prepared to do that and sit down with his colleagues and report to the House? Mr. McCrae: My colleagues and I, Mr. Speaker -well, one of them sits right beside me, so I am obviously quite willing to discuss these things with my colleagues.

When it comes to anybody else interested in health care generally in Manitoba, I think we have demonstrated the last number of months that we are very open to listen to what people have to say, whether they be providers of health care services or recipients or potential recipients of health care serv ice s. So we have been very open in our willingness to hear what people have to say and will continue with that approach. Federal Property Property Tax Freeze Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, the Mulroney government's freeze on federal property tax payments to municipalities has been extended by the new Liberal government, despite a promise to end this inequity. Today, the federal government announced that the '92 freeze will be lifted for Crown corporations, which still leaves many small municipalities with large federal departmental property holdings on the hook for millions of dollars in taxes. My qu estion to the Minist er of Ru ral Development: What action is the provincial government pl anning on this matter? Bon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Develop ment): Mr.

Spea ker , as the mem ber opposite knows, in March of this year I wrote a letter to the federal government expressing our concern with respect to free zing taxes or grants in lieu of taxe s. Our position certainly has not changed. Municipa lities which do not receive those grants in lieu of taxes have to go to their taxpayers to make up the shortfall. Indeed, we would encourage the Liberal federal government to reinstate the grants in lieu of taxes so that municipalities can indeed pass those on to where they are most nee ded in their municipalities. Mr. Clif Evans: Mr.

Speaker, given that the Federation of Canadian Municipalities found that with the federal government not paying their taxes, local homeowners and businesses have to pay over $15 million across Canada more in property taxes to subsidize this shortfall, can the minister tell this House what percentage of this $15 million is it costing Manitoba taxpayers, and will he request a meeting with the federal minister to discuss the concerns of Manitoba taxpayers? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I think I just gave the answe r to that question.

With respect to the specific number that the member asks for, I certainly will research that and get that information for him. Mr. Clif Evans: Given that small municipalities like Emerson which have a disproport ionate number of federal departmental property holdings are being particularly hard hit by the federal governme nt's refusal to lift the freeze, will the minister agree to lobby the federal government for a spec ial set tleme nt package for smaller municipalities which are shouldering a great deal of the burden of this unfair withholding of taxes?

June 7, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 32 Mr. De rkach: Mr. Speak er, I do not want to repeat my answ er again. I will simply send this letter over to the member so be can read the position that was taken by myself with respect to the freeze of grants in lieu of taxes . Let me say that I understand there is hardship in municipalities when grants in lieu of taxes are not paid, because that bmden certainly is then passed on to the local taxpayer.

This is the objection that I raised with the fe deral minister, and that position bas certainly not changed at this time. 817 Main Street Parking Lot Construction Mr . George Hickes (Point Dou glas): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Acting Minister of Housing. A little while back., I bad a meeting with the residents of 817 Main Street. We were meeting about the parking lot that they had been promised would be put in. They have not beard anything new. The summ er season is here, and we would like an update on the process of the parking lot for 817 Main Street. When will it be built for the residents? Bon.

Gerald Ducharme (Acting Mini ster of Housin g): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question under advisement for the Minister of Housing (Mrs. Mcintosh). Mr. Hickes: Mr. Speaker, my second question is to the Acting Minister of Housing again. [inte rjection] I did not bear my colleague ask for an environmental assessment on the parking lot. I am asking a very serious question here from the residents who have been waiting for years for their parking lot.

I would like to ask the Acting Minister of Housing if be will ensure that there is a meeting set up with the residents to explain to them why there is such a long delay in the building of this parking lot. Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, I am sur e the minister takes all her work seriously. I will take that question as noti ce. Home Renovation Program Tender Process Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, there have been a number of ads mooing in terms of the Home Renovation Program brought in by the govemment.

I would just like to ask the minister responsible for the program what the successful bidder is in terms of the contract and what the amount of the contract is. Bon. Gerald Duc harme (Acting Minister of Housi ng): Mr. Speaker, I will take that as notice for the Minister of Housing (Mrs. Mcinto sh). Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker , in fact, maybe I should restate it Was there a tender held on that contract? Is it being directed by a Saska tchewan company known as the Fdm Crew? Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, again, I will take that question as notice for the Minister of Housing. Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, while the minister is taking that question as notice, petbaps we could get some indication from the minister if, indeed, as we have received inf ormation it was not a tendered contract, why the govemm ent proceeded with an unte ndered contract Particularly, not only why was it not tendered, but why, in this particular case, were Manitoba firms not given the opportunity to put in a bid under the normal proce ss of the tend ering process? Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, again, I will take the question for the Minister of Housing. Smoking in Public Places Legislation Amendments Mr. Dave Chomiak (Klldonan): Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. We have been approached by many individuals requesting and asking when amendments to the act concerning smoking in a public place , et cetera, brought in unanimously by this Chamber, will be brought in, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister outline when those amendments will be brought into this Chamber?-because I believe they were promised last year as well.

313 3 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 1994 Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Very soon, Mr. Speaker. •

(1410) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the minister: Can the minister indicate whether or not those particular amendments will include a provision providing for the licensing of individuals or organizations that sell tobacco products? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, I was just checking my Order Paper to see if it was on the Notice Paper yet because that is how close we are- An Honourable Member: 1bat is how imminent it is. Mr. McCrae: That is how immine nt it is, in tenns of getting the legislation before the House, and as we used to say to the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr.

Leonard Evans), it will not be very many more sleeps before we are able to answer that question in more detail. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, can the minister indicate , because we will be meeting wit h organizations and groups today, whether or not the bill will contain provisions dealing with vending machines for children as well as the licensing of premises or individuals to sell tobacco products? Point of Order Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would think that questions relating to bills that might be tabled in the House certainly in my mind would be out of order. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition Bouse Leader): Mr. Speaker, I do believe the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak:) was referring not just to the bill, but also the government's policy, if indeed it does have a policy, and, in fact, while the bill did appear on the Order Paper yesterday for notice, there is no bill currently before the House, but the clear question was in terms of policy. If it had been strictly on the bill, it might be considered out of order, but we are asking a serious question of policy on this issue that I know you are very personally concerned about, Mr. Speaker, the rights of nonsmokers. Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. I have just been infonned, yes, indeed, notice has been given on said bill. Therefore, the honourable member's question is out of order, because you are anticipating that the-[interjection] ••• Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Now, the honourable member for Kildonan will rephrase his question. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I will rephrase my question to the minister. Can the minister outline what the government's policy is wi th res pect to tight ening up the legislation in dealing with the issue of providing tobacco to people under age and the problem of smoking in Manitoba? Mr.

McCrae: I am sure the honourable member will feel duly chastened as a result of his asking an inappropriate question in the House in the way that he has and that be will do a better job of framing his questions in the future.

The federal gov ernment has procla imed legislation that was passed by the previous govemment dealing with vending machines, and it already has an impact on any locations that are age-restricted. 1bat we hope will be helpful in the whole problem of limiting access of tobacco products to young offenders, or young people, I should say. [interjection] Well, we just want to keep them from becoming young offenders. That is all- [inteijection] They are young offenders- Mr. Speaker: Order, pleas e. I would remind the honourable minister to deal with the matter raised. Mr.

McCrae: I would love to deal with the matter raised, Mr. Speaker, but honourable members in the liberal Party tend to want to distract me from this issue. I think I know why, because they have had such a hard time with the federal decision about the taxation of tobacco products. I know they are a little embarrassed by that, but that is underst and abl e con sid eri ng all of the circumstances. If the honourable member will wait just a little while longer, we will share with him the contents of the bill. I remind him that the bill has also been

June?, 1994 LBGISLA'TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3134 the result of signif icant consultation with interested parties. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions bas expired. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: I would like to draw the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today His Excellency Tadeusz Diem, the Amb assa dor of the Republic of Poland, accompanied by his wif e Ada On behalf of all honourable members , I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. NONPO�CALSTATEMENT Manitoba Junior Hockey League Awards Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for Nia kwa have leave to make a nonpolitical SUrtemen t?[agreed] Mr. Jack Reimer (Niakwa): Mr. Speaker, on the weekend, a special awards banquet was held here in Winnipeg to pay tribute to the outstanding player s and coaches of the Manitoba Junior Hockey League. The event was highlighted by the naming of individual award winners of personal achievement in the various categories of hockey excellence along with special recognition to the St. Bonif ace Saints who won the Manitoba Junior Hockey League Championship for 1993-94.

Individual award winners which I would like to mention are : Ryan Sm ith of the St. James Cana dians, who was the scoring champion for the Manitoba Junior Hockey League with 125 points. He was also the leading goal scorer with the Manitoba Junior Hockey with 58 goals. He was also the most valuable player for '93-94, and be was the runner-up for the Junior A player of the year in Canada which was between 119 Junior A teams across Canada. Also, Cory Cyrenne of the St. Bonif ace Saints won the Vince Leah trophy as the rookie of the year. Ryan Tempel of the St. Bonif ace Saints won the top goaltender award.

Bob Miller was the coach of the year from the Portage Terriers. Also, Mr. Speaker, I would just like to read out the all -star team for the Manitoba Junior Hockey League for '93-94. In goal was Ryan Tempel of the St. Boniface Saints; defence was Laird Lidster of the Portage Terriers, also Cory Francis of the St. Boniface Saints; the fo rwards were Ryan Smith of the St. James Cana dians, Jason Gudmundson of the Winkler Flyers and Darcy Pelletier of the Southeast Blades . Mr. Speaker, I would ask all members of this House to join me in congratulating these excellent individuals in the Manitoba Junior Hockey League.

Thank you very much. ORDER S OF THE DAY House Busin ess Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you canv ass the House to see if there is unanimous consent to set aside the Estimates of the Department of Justice in the Chamber in order to consider the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation for today and for Thursday, June 9? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to set aside the Department of Justice in the Committee of Supply for today and Thursday and bring fo rward the Department of Highways and Transportation for today and Thursday? Is there agreement?

Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: There is agreement. Okay. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, would you again seek unanimous consent of the House to set aside the Estimates of the Department of Ind ustry, Trade and Tourism being considered in Room 255 in order to consider the Estimates of the Department of Environment for today and for Thursday, June 9? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to set aside the Department of Ind ustry, Trade and Tourism which is curre ntly in Room 255 for Estimates review for today and Thursday and to bring forward the Depa rtment of Environment for today and Thursday?

Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: There is agreement? There is agreement, sir. That is done .

313 5 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 1994 Mr. Ernst: Shall we go for waiving private members' hour7 Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour7 Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No, you do not have that one. Mr. Ernst: I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelso n}, that Mr. Spe aker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Environment; and the honourable memb er for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation. COMMI1TEE OF SUPPLY (CoDCUJTeDt Sections) ENVIRONMENT Mr. Deputy Cha irper son (Mar cel Laorendeau): Order, ple ase. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume cons ideration of the Estimates of the Department of Environment . •

(1430) When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 2. (a)(1 ) on page 52 of the Estimates book. Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, well, coming out of an inte resting Question Period, it is now app arent that at Oak Hammock Marsh the government has stopped counting birds, and they are now counting tourists and people . [intetjection] They are flocking to the site. Point of Order Bon. Glen Cum mings (Mi niste r of Environment): On a point of order, the birds have taken up reside nce, and the tourists are flocking to Oak Hamm ock. Mr.

Deputy Chairper son: The honourable minister did not have a point of order. • •• Ms. Cerilli: The question of the hour is, whe re are the birds? Mr. Cumm ings: The Minister of Natural Resources is responsible for the bird count [inte tjection] This is a serious issue. Mr. Deputy Chairpers on: It is a serious question. She wa nts to know where the birds are. [in tetjection] Order, ple ase. Could I ask the honourable members to add just a little bit of decorum, and let us get on to the business of 2.(a)

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4,157,100. Ms. Cerilli: We are in se ction 31 .2 (

a) Environmental Operations. Am I correct? Mr. Deputy Chairperson: That is correct. Ms. Cerill i: I do want to pick up from where I started off in the House in Question Period and see if the minister does have any more inf ormation with respect to the development at The Forks. The Forks development has become, I think, one of the success storie s of Winn ipeg, and we are very concerned that there is going to be environmental consider ation- Mr. Deputy Chairpers on: He is listening . Ms. Cerilli: The mini ster has esca ped his seat. I will wait.

I am concerned about future development at The Forks, particularly with respect to the expansion of the Norwood Bridge and plans for south point and how those two things are going to converge and potentially take away from what has become a real asset to the city.

I think that we want to retain the integrity of the access to the walkway and to the riverbank, and we want to make sure that there is not going to be a lot of concrete that is going to run over the walkway and turn it into a tunnel, which is one of the conce rns that has been expressed to me from some of the prop osals that are put fo rward to go through at The Forks.

1une 7, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3136 I want to give the minister a chance , if he has some information now, to ex pa nd upon the consideration to e nsure that there is a recre ational walkway and bike path that is going to connect from The Forks to the Churchill Drive parlc area, anot her beautiful parlc site within the city, and that we are going to have this kind of integration of environment and deve lop ment conce rns, that we are not paying for a study at the City of Wmn ipeg for a transportation policy, but at the same time we are fo rging ahead and be ginning construction without due comideration of envir onmental green space, recre ational use, all those kinds of issues.

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this has reached a long and torturous end from the original concept of The Forks and all of the debate we had about environmental hearings that occurred when The Forks was origin ally bei ng developed.

I do not have Hansard in front of me, but unle ss I am very mistaken, the member for Radiss on or some of the former members, particular ly the former member for Wolseley, the Liberal member for Wolseley, were on my case and everyone els e's about environm ental hearings and the pr ocess regarding the esta blishment of The Forlcs in the early stages to the point where environ mental process bogged down the rej uvenation, if you will , of the refurbi shing and the rebuilding ofThe Forlcs and the development of The Forks.

In fact, during the summer games when Prince Philip was here and he was to canoe down the river and come up to the dock., that dock. did not exist, because it was held up because of the fight that was taken through under environmenta l assessment with the Clean Environment Commission, and he had to wade in over top of mud flats to get up on the banks of the river. I find it quite ironic that we now have a position put forward on behalf of the NDP that this development is now very desi rable and that a good job in fact has been done in the way The Forlcs is laid out.

The boat dock. was very contr oversial -the boat basin I guess is a better way to de scribe it. The delay that caused some considerable emb arras sment in completion of that pro ject that I described earlier was as a result of everyo ne trying to make sure that all of the correct environmental examination had been done of the site, any potential burial that might have been inadvertently uncovered or covered over, saving of any flora and fauna that might be legitima te from our hist ory.

Basically what they fou nd, when they began digging along the banks there, was that was where the railway used to dump their cinders out of their tenders. We had a large buildup on the bank of, not what was sensitive ground or sensitive burial ground even, but an old garbage dump essen tially, where the railways had unloaded their cinders and other waste and built up, strengthened the banks. Now we are into examination of the Norwood Bridge. As I understand the proce ss, the Norwood Br idge proper wil l be going through an environmental review.

The removal of the one bridge that the member referred to in her earlier question, I suppose those who are doing planning in the city and in The Forks redevelopment area are going to have to answ er for how they see that development of The Forlcs unf olding. For a moment I thought she was referring to the other bridge which is over closer to the point I believe it is still there, and I do not think there are any plans to remove it. It is part of the ongoing planning for the development of the area.

I do not think the member should consider, every time there is an enviro nmental review of a bridge in the city of Winn ipeg, that this constitu tes another opp ortunity to do a traffic flow study through the Clean Environment Commissi on. We went through that discus sion, long , arduously and in great detail over the Charleswood Bridge. We were even so simon-pure on that thing that we brought in a chair from outside of the commission who had some experience and some knowledge on the municipal side of the issue.

I know that certainly his thoughts after the completion of the pr ocess-and he did eve rything very carefully and ver y conscientiously in reviewing the pro cess, but the process is ill equipped to deal with a traffic study. Of course, the city has its responsibility with its own plans to do the due diligence in providing long-term pl anning for traffic corridors, traffic flow s, rapid transit.

\ 3137 LEGISLA11VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Iune 7, 1994 •

(1440) I could go on at great length in the sympathy that I have for the City ofW mnipeg in designing ttansit corridors, rapid transit capabil ities. The city is not quite big enough to be able to aff Oid some of the more expensive types of rapid ttansit that might at some time in the future be feasible . Certainly the ovemead railways, monorails are probably not aff ordable in the near future fo r the City of Winnipe g. Certainly the bus corridors, the Pembina Highway potential for more rapid ttansit along there, I understand that those are all things that the city is actively considering.

I really think, if the member wants to get into a debate about public transit in the city of Winnipe g, that she should seize the opp ortunity during Urban Affairs Estimates to get into it. I am more than will ing to discuss it, but frankly it does not fall directly under Environment or environmental licensing. The Norwood Bridge will be licensed. The Norwood Bridge is in some serious structural diffi culty. We cann ot continue to ignore it. In the early stages of preparing for constr uction, I unde rstand that there is a lift station that they are going to have to relocate.

That has so me environmental consequences because they will be tinkering with the bank. But once you get beyond the impacts on the banks of these rivers, the traffic flows and how that is des igned is really not an area that the Department of Environment or the Environment Commissi on can properly deal with it. It does not mean that they are not important; it means that there are other venues certainly within the city's own structure.

The member would be somewhat out of place , I think , if she is suggest ing that the provincial government should be meddling in the design of the traffic corridors within the city through the environmental p roces s. If she fe els that strongly about this issue, she might well also want to appear at City Council as a citizen of the city and explain her position either personally or on behalf of the NDP party and how they view the unfolding of rapid ttansit or improved traffic flows within the city. It is an issue that the city has spent a lot of time -and they have lobbied for support on some of their studi es.

I see nothing wrong with the province being supp ortive and their looking at developing plans and supporting them in that proce ss. Ultimately, in infrastru cture construction, I guess it is a shared expenditure through the block funding of the city. I do not think I am prepared to make any further comments on this issue in that respect. Ms. Cerilli: 1bere are a number of issues that I want to pick up on from what the minister has said.

First of all, I want to clarify for the minister and for the committee that the comments I made with respect to The Folks were that I think there are a number of things there that are very positive for the city. It is a very popular, urban, downtown green space . That is one thing. The market centre, the open market, is very popular and provides nee ded grocery shopping for downtown part of Winnipe g, which does not have a lot of access to grocery shopp ing. These are a number of issues, I would also like to emphasize fo r the minister, that are Environment issues.

As we start developing toward a more sustainab le development approach, we have to realize that has implications for urban p lanning to a large degree. I think, as I said in my opening statement , that we have to st art-! do not know the word to use -deconstructing some of the rigid boxes that are departmental and jurisdictional boxes that we find ourselves in. I hope that the minister will continue to discuss the plans for this very exciting and important area for the city and for the pro vince. I am concerned about overdevelopment.

I am concerned about our not ensuring that there is going to be an ongoing, large amount of green space there , recreational space, and I am concerned that there is going to be no blockage to pub lic access to the riverbank, that there should be continu ous access to the riverbank. I think all of these are in Plan Winnipeg. I wo uld emphasize to the minister that he ref erenced the environmental impact assessment that was done on the Cbarleswood Bridge. That is

June 7, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3138 not one of the ass essments that I was very much involved with, but I think that there is a role for the province to play . The City of Winnipeg does not have its own environmental impact assessment provisions, and it relies on the provincial government on these kinds of developments , particularly class redevelopments, to fulfill that role . I think we do have a role to play as guidance. One of the questions I have initially was from the House with respect to the elimination of the overhead rail bridge .

I am hearing conflicting reports that there still is going to be continu ous access for cycling and recreational use, and that overhead rail bridge was not important to ensuring that that access is going to be there. On the other hand, I have people telling me that the rail bridge was significant for the kind of cycling and recreational use that is intended for The Forks or is desired for The Forks , and that it makes us wonder why the deconstruction of that rail bridge was done with such haste. Why was it done before Apri1 22, which was the deadline for appeals to the environment notice that was in the paper?

All of these kinds of things are , I think, legitimate concerns for people , and they want to be involved in this pr ocess. There have been a number of people, as the minis ter has referenced, who have been very active and involved in trying to have some community input into the developments at The Forks.

So I will stop there and let the minister respond to my concern about the need for this particular rail bridge to be used to e nsure that there is going to be cycling and recre ational access continuously from The Forks to Olurchill Drive, a proposal which, as I understand it, was accepted by the city and is in keeping with Plan Winnipe g. Mr. Cummings: Well, I do not need to defend my position in terms of support of The Forks.

When I was first an elected member, my city colleagues took a bag lunch and took me down to The Forks , and there was nothing but a bunch of decrepit buildings and some large acreage of gravel and cinders and pointed out the vision that they had for the development of this area. In relationsh ip to the bridge that has been removed, I do not think that should necessarily be unexpected.

I think that the member might better address , if she believes in the concepts and the principles of sustainable development as she prof esses to, then she might also recognize that that means that other responsible authorities also have to take their share of responsibility for environmental matte rs. It does not mean that one level of government is totally coming in over another.

In development of a bicycle crossing there, I would think that might well be something that the general public might want to discuss with the city in terms of its long-range plans, and those will be presented as part of the environmental hearing and what spans they intend to have, how they intend to manage foot traffic, how the foot traffic and bicycle traffic can be merged, if that is what has to happ en. I would certainly encourage that that occur as part of that process.

I think that we have just received one of the nation 's premier awards for The Forks and its status as tourism in an urban development, an urban redevelopment pro ject. So The Forks board is held in very high regard, based on the record that it has been able to produce up till now. The city, the province and the federal government all have representation there, as I recall the structure of that board. I am not familiar with the bridge that has been taken down. I make that very clear.

I think the member is perhaps pushing the wrong buttons in terms of what she would like to see this evolve into under the reconstruction of the Norwood Bridge . The provi nce does not necessarily dictate , but they certainly run the process and will, from the environmental point of view, provide the .answers that may be raised around the reconstruction of Norwood Bridge . •

(1450) I would take it even a little bit further. This is not just an environmental issue. It is also an issue of tourism, of community access, of developing downtown bicycle corridors . When the member says that Environment has a role to play in the urban are a, I agree whole heartedly . I sit as a member of the Urban Affairs

3139 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 1994 committee. I communicate regularly with this municipality and others. That is why I constantly reference the fact that I am very pleased to have had a chance to spend a year in Municipal Aff airs so that understanding and those lines of communication were there before I ended up in Envir onment, because really that is one of the ma jor client groups the Depar tment of Environment has to work with 1be conne ction is very obvious.

The principles of sustainable development all apply, but that also means that other departments, other responsible jurisdictions have to also apply their planning and their best judgment for en vironmental protection and enhancement We are talking about a seriously altered environment, however, when we are talking about the area around the Norwood Bridge . We are talking about redeveloping it into what may well be a very attractive area, but I do not think that from the environmental point of view we are going to be talking about saving of sensitive plants.

We will be talking about making sure the riverbank is not damaged, or that if it is that it is repaired, so it is kept in as close to a practical and original setting as possible . I am not sure where the member wants to take this questioning. If she is asking, will there be a hearing on the Norwood Bridge , I anticipate there will be. If she is asking me to go back and horsewhip the city for taking removal of that bridge, I do not think that I am in a position to do that Ms. Cerilli: I will st art off by asking if the minister has reviewed or been briefed on the proposal for the Norwood Bridge.

To be more specific, he said there will be a hearing. Can he be mo re spe cific to des cribe what type of an environmental impact assessment process this development will have? Mr. Cummings: I have been involved in a discussion at the early stages about what the city wanted to do. The specifics of the reconstruction I am not familiar with. I will check to see if staff has received anything that resembles a propos al. 1be proposal has been brought forward, it has been put on the public registty and is procee ding through the process.

In fact, there has not been much feedback at this point, and I suppose that rais es the question about what I said earlier. If there are no significant objections that are raised, then there will be a decision point as to whether or not a further public process will be required. But they are going through the process as required. Ms. Cerilli: I think we are going to be spending some time on this issue then, beca use as I understand it, when this pro ject was initially presented, there was an ad in the paper and there were numerous, like hundreds, of objectors.

Now there has been a second notice and there have been fe wer, I would even say quite a bit fe wer, number s of people. I think that those members of the public were under the impression that they already bad sent in their letters and let the various governments know, the city and province know, that they were very concerned about this development and that they would like to have input through a hearing.

This sort of leads us back to the questions I was asking yester day about when there is a development and the public are the ones that have to inte rvene, so there is going to be a thorough assessme nt-it is their responsib ility, they are the ones who carry the can in ensuring how extensive the pro cess is going to be-what kind of inf ormation do they get? As in this case, it seems that they are either misinfo rmed or misled because they are under the impression that they have already done their job and sent in their letters and made their position clear.

Then there is another notice, a new process, and they are told that there was not enough objection and they are going to have to be satisfied with not having a full hearing on the development. I find this is totally unacceptable. This is completely unacceptable. If the minister would go back, I think that there are probably hundreds, over a hundred letters that the public has sent in with respect to this development. I think there is an obli gation to have a thorough public,

June 7, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3140 environmental impact assessm ent process on this development Mr. Cummings: So the member is clearly stating then that she wants a public hearing. Ms. Cerilli: That is pretty clear. Does the minister have any question about that or any reason to believe that is not warran ted under this case? Mr. Cummings: I just wanted the Environment critic for the NDP clearly on record as to what she thought should happen in the case of this bridge. Ms. Cerilli: Is the minister now prepared to tell us what the government's policy is with respect to this bridge?

Are they going to follow a process? Are they going to make it cl earer at the committee today what that process is, so the public of Manitoba can read the Hansard and be sure of where this government is going in terms of environmental impact assessment and in terms of the development related to The Fm:ks? Mr.

Cummings: This project is going through the process as laid out by The Environment Act, which was written by the preceding government and ultimately passed after we came into office, which allows for the information to be brought forward for licensing purposes, put on the public record. 'There is a decision point, whether or not a public hearing process will be necessary, based on the feedback that comes from that process.

It is the director's decision actually at that point, and then there can be an appeal to that if people believe the director bas somehow recommended a course of action that is not in line with what they want. I suspect that what the member is referring to is that the city bas its own series of open houses.

In fact, that was the problem with the Cbarleswood Bridge situation where the city held its open houses and felt that it bad in fact an opportunity for public input The proces s, therefore, does have a bit of a duplication, but not one that I think the member can too easily point to as being anything more than a case of overlcill because really there are two opportunities for people to be involved Frankly as I understand the issues that were raised earlier, and I did not follow it precisely, most of the issues that were raised at the open houses were matters of planning, of traffic flows and those sorts of things, so the environmental process sometimes gets abused in that respect.

If we are talking about environment probl ems, then that is the appropriate venue to deal with them, but I think there are an awful lot of other side iss ues that get thrown into these questions and are generically called part of an Environmental Impact Statement. Once you get passed the immediate vicinity of the bri dge, then the city bas processes and a responsibility to follow its own processes in order to deal with those issues . •

(1500) Ms. Cerlll i: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, so the minister is now saying that urban planning issues related to traffic flow and volume are not environment-related issues for assessment consideration. I mean, is that what the minister is saying? Mr. Cummings: If the commission is being charged to look at a bridge or if a broader traffic, that does not mean that we are charging the commissi on with a broader traffic study.

The member is picking up the cudgel for an awful lot of other groups out there who want a city-wide environmental study-for lack of better word&-of traffic flows on bow we manage traffic in an urban setting. So if she wants to get into urban traffic management and those impacts, then I think she might want to get into the discussion with the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mrs. Mcintosh) , who will be very willing to discuss what some of those problems are and bow the city and the province are moving to address them.

But to say that every time we deal with a bridge in this ju risdiction, we need to have a complete assessment of traffic flows across the city does not seem to me to make a great deal of common sense . Ms. Cerilli: I would say to the minister that be is missing the point in a number of areas. The point I raised in the House today in Question Period was we have the traffic study coming down the pipe from the city; this government bas funded it through the Department of Urban Affairs TransPlan 2010.

31 41 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 1994 My question is, why is the governm ent allowing developments to go ahead bef ore that plan is presented from the city? Why do we have all of this bridge construction and traffic routing going on be fore the plan is presented? Why is the government giving up its authority through the environmental impact assessment to try and make sure that this plannin g is going to be done in keeping with environment provisions because we do not have the plan and the survey that is being done through the city? So that is the iss ue.

The other side of it is, in the environmental impact assessment the government does have the ability to address all of these issues. I am not saying that we should have a traffic study done for each bridge that is being looked at in the city, but what I am saying is that we should be waiting for the entire urban traffic plan to be developed before we go ahead and take down old bridges and build new bridges . I drive over that bridge pretty much every day. I know about the congestion problems with the double traffic lane that goes across that bridge.

I am familiar also with the acce ss problems to The Forks that could be developed if one of the proposals that is being presented goes forward, where you are not going to be able to access The Forks coming from the north. You know, I guess I would just beg to differ with the minister that these are all environment-related concerns. These are p art of the urban environment, and we have to be concerned about traffic volume and traffic flow, and that is the purview of environmental impact assess ment and the Environment department.

I do not know what kind of expertise the dep artment has on the commission or through the department to make sure that these kinds of issues are going to be considered in an environmental impact assessment, but certainly in this day and age, I do not think the minister can be saf e to say that these are not issues that should be addressed in an environmental impact assessment on a pro ject of this magnitude in the centre of the city.

I mean, we had an assessmen t on the Cbarleswood Bridge, and it just makes sense that we are going to have similar consideration in the downtown area at the core of the city where we have , I think, increased volume of traffic, it would be saf e to say. We have to get with the '90s, I would say to the minis ter.

He has raised other issues that I wanted to talk about too, but I will leave it there , and I want him to respond to this issue of examining the study that the Oty of Wm nipeg is doing prior to having the department withdraw its requirement for environmental impact ass essm ent without having the study there and the study completed. Mr. Cummings: The member chooses to ignore the fact that the bridge is in poor structural repair. It needs to be replaced and it bas begun the pr ocess.

The city bas bad its open houses, the Department of Environment has now given notification and published information that it bas, and it is moving along. I am interested that at this late juncture the critic for the New Democratic Party is now suggesting that no matter what the public bas said, there must be a large public hearing to deal with this issue over the next period of time. The traffic studies will not do away with the need for a bridge at that location, and everyone knows that there is a limit to how much automobile traffic you can pile into a particular are a.

I appreciate the member putting her party's position on the line, but it does not detract from the fact that we are well into a process which is, I think, quite a credible process despite the mem ber 's protestations to the contrary, and we will wait and see what fee dback we have received. Ms. Cer illi: The minister is talking about the wonderful p roces s that has been conducted on this, and I would ask the minister, has there been a public hearing on this proj e ct? Mr. Cumm ings: The city held an open bouse. We have not. Ms.

Cerilli: So the minister is saying that because there was an open house run by the city that there bas not been a public hearing un der The Environment Act, and seem s to be implying that is not nece ssary and that somehow it is going to be replaced because of an open bouse where there bas

June 7, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 42 been no, I think, opportuni ty for members of the public, who have the right and who certainly have the understanding, to present an alternative vision for what the city is proposing there. I think that in this day and age we want to make sure that we are goin g to look at those ideas that come forward from the community that are going to raise concern about the direction that urban planning or any kind of planning and development is going.

So I would just ask the minister to clarify if my assessm ent of what he is saying is accurate, that he is saying that there is no need for a public hearing on this development because the City of Wmnipe g had an open house . Mr. Cumm ings: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member is deliberately misrepresenting my commen ts. There is no connection in terms of the environmental hearing process between the city having a public open meeting and whether or not we will eventually call an environment hearing.

I said earlier in reference to the Charleswood Bridge that there was confusion caused around that, and I thought we cleared that up as a result of the process that we went through with the Charle swood Bridge. I really resent the member attempting to twist this, that for some reason there might be some lack of concern on our part about whether or not there needs to be a hearing. If the public is not as discon certed as the member appears to be about having a hearing, then that will obviously impact on the decision one way or the other.

I hope she is prepared to write the City of Winnipeg and write me, go on the public media and demand a public hearing on the bridge. I hope that is the route she is now embarlcing on, if that is what she really believes . • (1510 ) Ms. Cerill i: I think that it is the minister that bas been trying to twist what I have been saying a number of times to day. I will go back then to asking the minister if be and his staff can clarify the notice in the pape r that was for an EAPF. I am not fam iliar with that abbreviation.

Can the minister tell me what that abbreviation means, if it is a city process or a city board that put a notice in the paper on this development, and can he also tell us the number of people that responded under that public notice in the paper? Mr. Cummings: Unless the me mb er bas something she would like to share with me, as far as we can recall, it would not be included in any kind of notice that we would put out. It might be something that the city would have publicized. Ms.

Cerilli: Can the minis ter then clarify for the committee the number of appeals under the public notice that was in the paper regarding this pro ject? The deadline , I think , was April 22, '94. How many notices or how many letters of concern were submitted to the department? Mr. Cummings: I believe there was only one. Ms. Cerilli: Will the minister endeavour to get for me the number of other submissions regarding this pro ject that were sent in prior to the notice that the Department of Environment put in? Mr.

Cummings: If the member is asking me to repor t on who may or may not have sent inf ormation to the city, I su ggest she should ask the city. Ms. Cerilli: Has he been in contact with the city, and is he aware of the number of groups or individu als from the public who have written to the city with regard to this pro ject raising concerns about this pro ject? Mr. Cum min gs: Have I had direct communication with the responsible bureaucrats in the city? No, I have not.

The member is now taking up the cudgel of that NDP gimme group, the Choices, which is the only objector that filed with the Depa rtment of Environm ent, to the best of my knowledge at this point. So now it is very cle ar what the strategy is . They want to delay and they want to conf ound the process in the name of the environment. In fac t, it is not environmental issue , once you get past the specific core responsib ilities, that we are dealing with. It is a planning issue, and if she has a p lanning problem with the City of Wmn ipeg, then for goodness sake, talk to the City of Winnipe g. Ms. Cerilli: Mr.

Deputy Chairper son, bas the department had any contact with the city that

31 43 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 1994 would have received numerous letters of concern regarding the Norwood Bridge pro ject? Mr. Cummings: I would ass ume that at the staff level we actually work fa irly closely with them . Ms. Cerilli: So then the department would be aware of the number of letters of concern and letters of appeal that were sent in to the Oty of Wmnipeg with respect to this pro ject. Could he tell the committee the number or the volume ? Mr. Cummings: That is not something that either party would be under obligation to be in discussion with or be providing to each other.

I frankly cann ot tell you whether the city would have shared that information with the department or not. But the member is attempting , in fact, might even be succeeding, if someone were to be listening to this inane conversation, to confuse the public out there in the diffe rence between the city, municipal responsibility and their planning and environmental responsibilities that they have to take responsibility for and the Manitoba En vironment Act responsibilities that we have a grea ter responsibility for in the specific development of the bridge itself.

I really think the member should stop trying to confuse and conf ound the process. If she does not like the process let her say so but do not try and alternately flip back and forth between the city 's process and the provin ce's proce ss. Once they have gone ahead with their-they have started their pl anni ng process, they have then triggered the environmental process within the provincial jurisdiction, and we are dealing with that. If the member is attempting to make some kind of a case that we are pulling the wool over the publ ic's eye, I think she is on very weak ground. Ms.

Cerilli: I beg to differ with the minister. I think that I am on very strong ground because I-you know, I have been quite amenable over the Estimates so far with the minister. I think that we have gotten along fa irly well, but I also think: that this gover nment has a hor rible record on environmental impact assessment, and they may go back and say, well, it was better than yours but times are changing and this is not acceptab le.

It is not acceptable for this government, on pro ject after pro ject, to continue to manipulate environmental assess ment p rocess , and I am afraid that is what is happening here again. The minister talked about having responsibility only in a certain area in terms of assessment, and I would say that I saw the notice in the paper with my own two eyes. I cut it out of the paper. It clearly said it was a Manitoba environmental notice of appeal for an environmental assessm ent, and the deadline was April 22.

Crossing that bridge before April 22, I saw that there was construction going on prior to any public opp ortunity to be completed for app eal to the department So that is where this is coming from. That is where this is coming from, from my own observation that there was one thing in the paper which said the public had the opportunity to raise issue until April 22. Bef ore that deadline was even up there was construction going on on that bridge pro ject. Now the construction seems to have stopped.

The overhe ad bridge is gone and I have had phone calls to my office from a number of people who have a lot of time and effort invested into this area, who, I think because of their expertise, have something to offer. I think it is legitimate that I raise these questions here because , as I just said, under the depart ment's authority, as indicated from that notice that was in the Winni peg paper, they have a responsibility.

If the minister says I should just go and talk to the city, I think that he is wrong, that I can raise this issue here because this department has a responsibility to conduct an environmental impact assessment on this pro ject that is going to be thor ough, that is going to look at all the issues related to this environment and development question and is going to make sure the city is not going ahead with the construction prior to fair and thorough considemti on. The member for Riel (Mr. Ducha rme) seems to be having some difficulty with my stateme nts.

If he wants to put some inform ation on the reconl, he can have the opportunity to do that I know that he also represents a constituency .

June 7, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3144 Point of Order Bon. Gerald Du ch arme (M in iste r of Government Services): I would just like to say that people in the south end ofW mnipeg bave long waited for this bridge, and they expect this bridge. It is a good proj ect. She should maybe go back to the city and talk to the city in regard to their en ginee ring designs and what they bave pl anne d. They bave hired en ginee rs. It goes back five, six, seven years they have been working on that pro ject. She should go ba ck and gather that inf onnation instead of bringing it up here. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable minister did not bave a point of order. ••• Ms. Cerilli: For the inf onnation of the member for Riel, I do talk to the city on a regular basis, but I would also infonn the member for Riel that his government has a responsibility under The Environment Act. • (15 20) Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Could I ask the honourable member to put her remarlcs through the Chair and not open debate with the honourable Minister of Government Services? It will not help the circumstances that we are in this afternoon. Ms. Cerilli: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, this is but one pro ject that the government is involved with, in tenn s of environmental impact asses sment, that seems to be presenting some probl ems. I said in my opening comments and again today that I think that this is an area that the government has really, really not been in compliance with The Environment Act, that there bave been a number of incidents where there are grounds for court action, there are grounds for, well, legal prosecution, I guess, for violation of The Environment Act.

I think that this is one of the areas that-it is the real record of this government on environment issues. In terms of responding to some of the other issues raised here, I also represent an area of the city that relies heavily on this bridge. As I said, I cross the bridge myself pretty much every day, unless I come the other way, over Provenche r. But I think that we also want to make sure that this development is going to be done in keep ing with a forw ard-looking vision of The Forks and of environmentally sound urban planning and urban traffic flow.

The government continues to claim that it believes in sustainable development, in chan ge, but yet on issue after issue, as exemplified by the way that it mishandled environmental impact asse ssment, we see that it continues to just push through development and do things in the same old way. I think that, you know, there are groups out there. The minister bas made disparaging comments about some of the individu als who have put their thoughts forw ard to the city and to the department with respect to this development.

I would just suggest that perhaps it is time that we started taking a second look at some of the alternative vision, because certainly we can all see that it is necessary, that there are serious problems in the city and in the province in terms of environment development, and we have to start doing things diff erently.

I, for one, believe that the environmental impact assessment process is one of the best tools that we have to start doing that, and we should start respecting it and fo llowing the legislation more to the letter and make sure that we are not going to be compromising the process in order to try to get developments pushed through that are on some other agenda, other than a sustainable agenda. I would just ask the minister to, you know, not try and put words in my mouth, and I will not try to put words in his mouth with respect to these kinds of issues.

I want to ask the minister if the Manitoba government through any avenue, be it through The Forks Corporation, through the department directly, through appointments that they bave, if they bave any influence into the pl ann ing of The Forks, particularly in terms of environmental concerns. Mr. Cummings: The Manitoba government has its shared responsibility as part of the Forks, now the combined board, Forks and Core Area, but where they have an environmental issue that needs

31 45 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 1994 to be dealt with through our process, they are a regulated body the same as anybody else. Ms. Cerilli: I did not follow that answer. Will the minister repeat the answ er, please? Mr. Cummings: What I said was the Province of Manitoba bas input through its membership on The Forlcs board, the same as our other two partners do, but if the member is asking, what do we do in terms of environmental matters, they are a regulated entity, the same as other independent organi zations might be, or other individual s, or other corporate bodies. Ms.

CeriDi: Can the minister tell the committee who is on that Forlcs Renewal Board as app ointed by the Province of Manitoba, or the government of Manitoba, and how were they selected? Mr. Cummings: No, I cann ot, nor do I think it is necess arily pertinent in relation to the environmental issues. I cannot off the top of my head name the members of the board. [in terjection] Well, yes, I think that they are appointed the same way that the fe deral representatives that Mr. Axworthy appoints are brought forward. The member for Riel (Mr.

Ducharme) bas pointed out that in fact the Pawley administra tion would have used the same route to app ointment that this government does. Now if the member has inf ormation that she wants to bring forward about something the board is or is not doing in relationship to environmental matters, I would be more than glad to try and answer her. Ms. Cerilli: I do not want to belabour that issue too much. I know that the committee is coming up to look at The Forlcs development. I am just trying to get some background inf ormation.

Just to clarify then, these are the folks on the committee appointed by the governm ent who are there to take forward the perspective and the vision of the provincial government with respect to The Forlcs . Is that correct? Mr. Cummings: I would hope they carry forward -in a broad sense , when this government particular ly appoints people to boa rds and commis sions, we attempt to appoint quality people who are prepared to bring forward their own intellige nce to bear on the topic in front of them. I think that they would resent being at least notionally referred to as puppets of this gove rnment. Ms.

Cerilli: The minister is going to talk about my putting words in his mouth when he has just said that about what I asked. Now, let us get real here . I did not use the phrase , puppets of the government. Mr. Cummings: That was the implication. Ms. CeriDi: No, the implication is in terms of policy. I would think that this government has some vision for The Forlcs , I would hope . It may be a vision that we agree with; it may be not. There are a number of issues related to The Forlcs where we could have the debate.

The question that I am asking right now is, is it the expectation that these people are there to bring that vision, which I hope would include some sense of the environmental concerns, the sustainable development aspects of The Forlcs? Mr. Cummings: The member is determined to make the discussion around The Forlcs solely an environmental issue. Ms. Cerilli: Sustainable development. Mr.

Cummings: Wel l, the member says now that refers to sustainable development Then, if it refers to sustainable development, it would follow that it is not just the Department of Environment that has input into the ultimate planning process that The Forlcs Corporation embarlcs upon. They spend an awful lot of time in the early form ative stages. There were public hearin gs; there were open houses, ad nau seam, as I recall, over the vision that they had for The Forlcs . • (1 530) I was not deeply invol ved.

I became involved where there was an environmental issue that was raised regarding the boat basin and marina, or whatever the title was, at the near end of The Forlcs. I really am disappointed, I guess, that the member is following this tactic in terms of trying to alter whatever plans might be in place for the Norwood Bridge . If there is ever an abuse of the environmental p roces s, it is when it is required to deal with a very broad range of issues that are not

June 7, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 46 part of the mandate that is given to it in a particular situation. There is no question that people have a lot to say about bow The Forks might develop and where the redevelopment of the bridge will ultimately take that area. That is not necess arily a direction the Clean Environment Commission is equipped to direct the city on.

The concepts of sustainable devel opment means that you have a broad conse nsus-based solution to your planning that respects the business and environmental concerns that are raised, so you can have a healthy community and a healthy environment. You can have jobs and a healthy environment. I really am puzzled and dis appointe d that the member now appears to be putting herself in a position where she wants to be obstructionist in terms of how the process will unfold aroun d the Norwood Bridge and The Folks . Ms. Cerilli: Now the minister is calling me obstructionist.

I have been called a lot of things by this government We will add that one to the list. I would just like the minister to clarify. I was going to ask the minister this question at the outset of these Estimates as we move into the area of sustainab ility, so to speak, if he would define his definition of development from a sustainable perspective, because I think it is important here. I mean, he has made reference to that himself. So I would like him to clarify that for the record. How does the Minister of Environment define sustainable development? Mr.

Cummings: Well, the member knows as well as anyone else the range of

definitions that people like to apply to sustainable development but, in fact, it means that we have development in a way that we are able to protect the sustainability of the environment and at the same time have the opportunity to develop our society so that we have a sustainable lifestyle as well. Now, this is a perfect example of where the member is mixing and matching to suit her own putposes, and when we look at the Norwood Bridge and the reconstruction of a bridge that has been there since when, 1914 or somewh ere in there? There was probably a crossing there before this one was built.

It is now being seen as some sort of an attack on the local environment to replace that bridge. The bridge needs to be constructed so that it is compatible with the immediate area. Part of that is an environmental question, and that will be dealt with, but the larger plan that the city· brings to bear on how it will unfold its traffi c, how it will direct the traffi c, whether it is to that bridge or to others, and how many spans it should have there to accommodate the traffic that is availab le, will be handled through their pl anni ng process. Ms. Cerilli: Well, I am going to leave this

section now, this issue, but I would just like to see if the minister would agree with me that sustainable development, in a way, is about mixing, is about sta rting to connect environment, economic development, health and justice issues, and that all of these areas, in terms of urban planning, certainly have implications for the urban environment.

The minister had said that we have bad such an impact on the environment in the urban area, but creating a healthful sustainable urban environment, I think, is going to have implications for all sorts of government departments and govemment services and industries including transportation, including urban planning. You know , this is where we wil l have to depart and, I think, agree to disagree, but I guess that is why we are on diff erent sides of the House. [inter jec tion] The member for Riel (Mr. Ducharme) says it is a good thing.

I am going to take a break now and pass it over to my Liberal colleag ue, and we will go from there. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Cbaitpe rson, the member challenged me and then obliquely ignored the comments about sustainable development . It seems to me that if you are talking about an opportunity for sustainable development anywhere across Canada, this province is one of the areas where that is achievable. We have an environment that is in pretty good shape despite all of the criticism and all of the concern that is raised from time to time, some of it legitimate, some of it perhaps overstated.

At the same time, we have

31 47 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 1994 tremendous opportunity for our economy , which is still maturing, to grow in a way that is very sustainab le. (Mr.

Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Clair) When we look at the opportunities for lif estyle enhancement in the city in tenns of how the city wants to develop its core area and how it wants to develop its traffic lanes, then I think you can look with some confidence to Plan Wmnipeg and the long-range planning that they have started in con junction with the Province of Man itoba, in con junction with their surro unding municipalities as to how they will develop over the next quarter century.

We have an unprecedented state of co-operation I think between the surrounding municipalities and the aty of Winnipe g. That does not mean that there are not ongoing examples of friction, but it is a much better working arran gement than it was six years ago, which I am very confident is a result of this government and the Gty of Winnipe g and the surrounding municipalities recognizing that if they are going to have an opportunity to benefit from a sustainable development, that it st arts with working together and it starts with having long-range plans.

The reconstruction of this bridge is not incompatible with their long-range pl ans. 1be member, in my view, far too often likes to insert process instead of pl anni ng. Planning does need to be brought forward, examined for where it will take us, examined for the impacts it will have on the community and on the environment, and, ultimate ly, pl anni ng decisions are very often what we end up arguing about rather than environmental matteiS. If the planning is done prope rly up front, there would not be environmental issues associated with it. Ms. Cerilli: I just want to respond.

If pl anni ng is not process, I do not know what is. If urban pl anning is not a proce ss, then the minister can debate me on that one . I just want to ref er to a document developed by the acting general manager for the Parks and Recreation Department with respect to the river parkway system priority for the development of sections of riverbanks along the Red and the Assini boine. There are five criteria. One of them is linkage potential. One of them is ownership, public benefit, costs, and other factoiS which are being considered.

This paper outlines a number of areas and talks about a plan for how to make sure that we are going to develop our riverbank property in a way that is going to fi t it into a context of sustainable development for this city. •

(1540) I come from a background in health education. To me, if we are going to have he althy communiti es, we have to have opportunities for preventative health care.

That is how I fit this into my vision of susta inable development, that we have to have places in our city where people can go and have as much as possible a natural setting to recreate, to do some preventative health care and get some exercise, and that we have to invest in that In the long run we were going to save money in terms of health intervention through hospitals and very expensive technology and all that kind of [interjection] This has a lot to do with the Norwood Bridge as the minister is indicating, because if we do not have the ass essment that is going to ensure that we have this kind of vision included into the development at The Folks , we are going to have concrete around the river, and people do not want to go and ride their bikes and en joy nature because there is none there .

They just have concrete . Mr. Cummings : They could not ride their bikes by the river if we did not do riverb ank enhanc ement. Ms.

Cerilli: The Minister of Environ ment is speaking out of tum that what I am wanting to do is ensure that we are not going to compromise the good things that have happened at The Forks, that we are not going to now, as I just said, turn part of the walkway into a tunnel with concrete and block part of the access to the riverbank and green space by putting in a monstrosity of an ovetpass and a bridge system that is going to compromise the integrity of The Forks development as a green space and natural setting in the centre of the city.

June 7, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 48 So I think the issues that I am raising- Mr. Cummings: ... the water that they have there, because you have a dam at Lockport. That is why you have got water that is as high as it is at The Forks. Talk about an unaltered •... Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: On a point of order, Mr. Acting Deputy ChairpeiSOD. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose): Order, please. The honourable minister will have his opportunity to respond. ••• Ms. Cerllli: Thank you, Mr. Acting Deputy ChairpeiSon, for calling the minister to order.

I just want to finish my comments by continuing to clarify for the minister how this fits into my vision for sustainable development and for environmental impact asse ssment. I am fully aware that, as the minister says, we often end up debating process . But I would also say to the minister that is the business we are in. We are in the business of developing policy and that comes from a process , in my opinion, not often enough of consultation to the community. That again lies into environmental impact assessment where we have a tool where we can bring the community in and listen to what they have to say.

They have a lot of good ide as. They have certainly a perspective that often gets lost, I believe, in government, when we stop looking at how development actually impacts on people 's live s, on their daily experience of living in that habitat that we are creating in the city. I hope that the minister can undeiStand now where I am coming from. I would ask him to clarify for me if he has seen, or if his staff have seen, this document that is being presented from the city.

I know that there has been some concern because of budget restraints about moving in this direction at this time, but I hope that I have clarified how I look at it in terms of providing the facilities for preventative health and providing the opportunity for people to have a safe and natural place to recreate, something that I think is really important in an urban environmen t. Thank you. Mr.

Cummings: I had an opportunity to spend some lime with a group that referred to themselves as urban architects, and I could not agree more with the member in terms of what she is saying about the respon sibility that we have to create a hospitable environment downtown. When you have a heavily populated area, you inevitably end up with a core area which might well be the older part of the city and anything you can do to enhance that area.

I am simply telling the member that if she is truly committed to the issues that she is bringing forward here , she is only getting part of the answer from me because the environmental hearing process is only part of the answ er. There is a larger planning proc ess of which the environmental impact of this bridge and the hearings or the process-that could lead to hearings or might not lead to hearings for that matter-that surrounds it are only part of it.

There is a larger responsibility for those who are in fact the urban planneiS and the City of Winnipeg and their environmental plan that they have for the core area of the city. I guess we can probably debate this until the river freezes over and we are not going to agree, but I think the fact is that the member is only catching part of the responsibility when she brings the concerns to this table . There is also a significant other jurisdiction out there that has in fact the lead on a lot of these concerns, and we would be more than glad to hear from her regarding her concerns . Ms.

Norma McCormick (Osborne): I would like to proceed into some of the detail of the Environmental Operations appropriation and ask some questions specifically on pages 29 and 32. I note that the staff turnover allowance is cited at 53.9, which is in excess of 10 perce nt. Can you give me some information as to why you are anticipating such a high staff turnover? Mr. Cummings: Unle ss I am reading the numbers incor re ctly, that is actually a relati vely small number. That is $53,000 as compared to $4.151 mill ion. So that is a particular ly small amount of money that is left there as an allowance.

31 49 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 1994 Ms. McCormick: Can I ask then, just in raw numbers, what you are anticipating, what figure you are using to calculate your staff turnover allowance? Mr. Cummings: The rule of thumb is around 1 or 1.5 percent If it would provide the member with some confide nce, I was quite amazed at what was a fairly high rate of turnover in government when I be came aware of the larger pictur e in the provincial government The rate of turnover is actually far beyond that.

So this department is actually quite low, although I would suggest that the other departments , their numbers are shrinking as well, but I do not think they are that low, or at least the larger ones certainly are not . Ms. McCormick: Dropping down to the Other Expendi tures, I note that there is a line for Other Operating. Is any of this amount presumed to be used for the purchase of laboratory services with the transfer of the environment labs to EITC? Mr.

Cummings: The Other Operating , I suppose, to some extent, some of it could be unanti cipated, but what is referenced is everything from meals to compu ter-related charges to loss, damage, imurance, extraordinary costs, some publications that might not have been anticipated earlier on, assista nce reallocation, transf er costs, some membership fees and registration. It is a bit of catcball, but it is not a big number in relationship to the total number. The laboratory dollars are allocated on page 32 under Supplies and Services at $1.7 million. Part of that will be the laboratory costs. Ms.

McCormick: Actually, that 'is where I was going with this. I was curious as to whether there are laboratory expendi tures anticipated in the Environmental Operations side in addition to the Environmental Management side . Mr. Cummings: They are all allocated in the management page. • (15 50) Ms. McCormick: So any of the expenditures which were in curred on the operation side which would require lab analysis would be run through the Other approp riation. Mr. Cummings: Yes. That is only for this year, mind yo u.

In the changing of the labs to independent operations, amalgamated labs-the lab has been gradually moving toward more of a cost-recovery system. You would probably be familiar with the fact that certain fe es and services have increased the last fe w years. But for this year, in the int erim, to establish what would be normal needs and what even might be their normal fee structure, as I understand it, there is an agreement being struck between the new independent lab and the department to provide the same services that we received last year for roughly the same dollar.

In other words , our app ropriation for what it cost us to run the lab, we were able to redire ct that, in the appropriate numbers, to cover our costs for this year, but as we get a better understanding of what real costs are , those numbers will undoubtedly have to be adjusted. Ms. Mc Cormick: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chaiipe rson, so what I understand then is there is a commitment to a rate structure in this fiscal period which makes you confident that the amount approp riated for the purchase of lab services will be enough for the department to operate and that there will be in a coming fisca l period some perhaps upward revision of the rate structure which the department will be sub jected to along with all of the other commercial clients . That being the case then, I would like to turn to the lines on page 32 with respect to the staff ye ars. I note that there is a drop from 87.44 down to 51. 44.

Does that indicate the transfer of the lab staff? Mr. Cummings: Yes, that reflects the numbers, 36, with the lab staff . The member made a leap of faith saying that next year the cost reflection might well go up. That might well be right but I do not think we are positioned to acknowledge that one way or the other yet. I would presume that the member agrees with the philosophy behind this. That is, not only doe s there need to be well-serviced laboratories out there competing for business on a basis that is founded in solid business approach and cost recov ery, but it is the same as

June ?, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 50 our Fleet Vehicle change that we made to a Special Operating Agency. It does require all of us to look at what our real costs are. You could argue that there may be situations where people might think twice before they Older a certain test to be done. At the same time, that is probably not a bad thing because there may well be some rationalization of the work that is done when you reflect the real cost of doing it.

That was probably reflected in the manner in which the lab prioritized its work up until the changeover came. 1be high priority work was done in as a quick a tmnaround as possible, but there were matters that did not get done on as high a priority. All of that will, I hope, start to shake down over the next few months . Ms. McCormick: The minister bas also made a leap of fai th, Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, with respect to my anticipated su pport without equivocation for the new SO A.

On one level I can understand the rationale the minister is operati ng from , but I do have some con cerns that I would be prepared to discuss at a later point For right now the ttansfer of the 36 st aff positions accounts for the reduction in staff years. I wonder what then accounts for the inc rease in st aff dollars on this line. You will note that it was $2,499,000-plus for salaries on the line and then it goes up in this Estimates expenditure to $2,530,700. I am kind of curious bow you have managed-! think this is very clever-to get rid of 36 st aff positions and even get an increase in the allocation. Mr.

Cummings: The dollars have already been deducted. The 36 are not included in the calculation of the salary. The st aff numbers are the only numbers that are changed there . It is not 36 less and the payroll the same size. The payroll for the numbers that were left was a certain size, and then the ... payroll for those numbers that were left is a certain size. The calculation already reflects the downsizing, but there is a small increase there which-and it is small, $37,000, that reflects increments and other normal entitlements that would go with salary benefits. Ms.

McCormick: So if I understand correctly, the $2,499,000 indicated as the expenditures for '93 -94 is not true. That is not an accurate expenditure figure. That would be almost a promtion basis . Mr. Cummings: I suppose it depends on how you wish it re flected. It is adjusted so that you are comparing apples and app les, is what it really is intended to do. It did not mean to confuse the issue, but it was meant so that the bottom line, at least as I read it, is so that the bottom line figures are, in fact, comparable. You do not need to adjust them . Ms. McCormick: I can see what you have done.

I just think that it is a bit of a misrepresentation to imply that you have got 87 staff years for the one amount, and then. you get 51 for an increased amount. It does provide for some confusion. Mr. Cummings: I understand what the member is saying. I guess it is not unusual, however, with having seen a number of these types of representations before.

You can have a staff year -and it is not meant to have happened here-but you can have a st aff year with no dollars attached to it All this was meant to reflect was the number of staff years that were allocated, but the dollars are meant to be compared on a staff -to-staff basis . There was actually an increase of $31 ,000 to pay the same number of staff this year over what those staff got last year. If you calculate the col umns vertically, you do get a balance as well. Ms. McCormick: So all I need to do, Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, through you to the minister, is pretend in my mind that the 87.44 is in fa ct 51. 44, and I will have it, right? Mr. Cummings: I am not sure if the Auditor agrees with the term "pretend ," but that is fine by me. Ms. McCormick: You have given me the invitation to offer you my comments on the process of ttansf erring the lab to an SOA, and I was wanting to make sure that one of the essential considerations in the first run is covered off, and that is the issue of accreditation.

If the lab's services are to be fully useful to those people who are looking for the analysis of environmental sampling , there is a proce ss for assur ing

3151 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June ?, 1994 accreditation. Equally there is a process for occ upational safety and health sampling analysis, done generally through the AIHA. Has consideration been given in the transfer of the mandate from the Department of Environment through to BITC with respect to ensuring that this laboratory facility in its new in carnation remains accre dited in both systems? •

(1600) Mr. Cummings : Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, that is a requirement of their charter. Ms. McCormick: The other concern that I would have with this private sector entity is the possibility that if it operates under the Board of EITC that many of the people who are on the list -I do not know if they are called directors, or at least the council-are people who are potentially going to be people whose organizations may submit samples for analysis. For example, we have Bristol Aeros pace , Simplot, D.W. Frie sen, Standard Aero, some engineering firms, rolling mills, loco, Western Glove.

Does the minister see any possibility for a conflict of interest with respect to the lab being accounta ble to people who are in fact the commun ity who may be seeking analysis or submitting samples to this organization? Mr. Cummings: Interestingly enough, one of the accusations used to be that because the department had the lab housed within the department that therefore you could not trust the results that came from the lab.

The accusation was the department was covering its own backside because its own lab would not condemn tests as a result of something they may or may not have been controlling themselv es, which, frankly, was a crock. I do not see shadows behind every bush on this issue . The member raises an issue that undoubtedly needs to be examined, but certainly in the interim and in the first year as this transition is being completed, it is not something that I have been troubled by. I have not spent a lot of time fo llowing through what relationship there might be in tenns of looking for work.

We have a situation where just getting on with the amalgamation, I think, is going to be the major struggle between the three labs here, and how it will evolve from there, I suppose, is probably still somewhat of an open question. This is not being driven by any one of the originating dep artments . I would think the member might agree that there is some validity to taking that approach as well. I hear the question and it will not go unnoticed. Ms. McCormick: I think I would fe el more comf ortable if this had been driven within the lab groups themselves.

Now the Department of Environment is in fact going to be more a client of this new group than the provider of the service. For that reason, the pmpose of my questioning on this line is to ensure that the department continue to have access to the quality and timeliness of analysis that was there before . I guess that is another area for questioning. If a commercial lab goes into c ompetition with other labs in the marke1place, will this then mean that the department will also be free to seek laboratory analysis from other private sector labs? If it works one way, does it work the other way as well? Mr.

Cummings: I think the member would likely appreciate that that is not likely in the initial stages . It is no diff erent than the fleet vehicle . By the way, this is not a special operating agency inasmuch as it is set up slightly diffe rent, with reporting to the agency that it is. By compa rison, however, in the transitional stage , there are mutual grounds for wanting to supp ort each other, if you will. The new entity needs the business. The departments that used to do business with their own labs need the ass urance of budget and timeliness as you raise .

So there is a mutual support mechanism there in the early stages. There is a lot of complex possibilities that evolve from this when you talk about timeliness without really addressing it. I am not sure that I am equipped to addr ess it completely , but I talked about prioritization within the work the lab was doing for the department. We got timeliness, but we also-through prioritization, there was other less important water sampling work, fo r example , that was pushed back. Those who, from the outside looking in, wanted to or had a different vision of how they

June 7, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 52 thought the labs should be working were quite concerned about the issue of timeliness, whether it is this lab or any other. So it is something that the new manager and the administration are going to have to work out. Ms. McCor mick : I gues s I am ju st kind of inter ested in this new status then, with the department having almost preferred client status to this new organization. I am swprised.

I had read early documentation when this was an idea, and I had understood that the preferred option was to create an SOA, but I must have missed something along the line if that is not how it turned out. I guess the other question then is, with respect to the ability to compete in the private sector, what assurances wo uld be there in fact if your department is both the preferred client but also the captured client, you know, one that they know they have no matter what?

What is going to e nsure that the service continues to be as aff ordable and as timely to the department as it is to the people who can take their money and walk down the street and use another lab? (Mr. Deputy Chairpers on in the Clair) Mr. Cummings: It is being addr essed by contractual arrangements in the short term. I think that my personal view is, and I am not deeply immersed in this issue because of the management structure that it now has, that we are a client.

But I think that as with other situations, some of them SOAs, there is a period of maturity and evolution and then the question becomes, what is the next step? Is the next step, in fact, the one that you are ref erencing where the department seeks out the best price it can get for best turnaround, or does it have some kind of a preferred client status on an ongoing basis?

That is possible and might well be practical considering the nature of some of the things that we do, but that would have to be decided by a contractual agreement for an appropriate reimbursem ent and level of productivity at the lab, is the way I would see it unfol ding. Ms. McCormick : Mr. Deputy Chaiipe rson, I have a couple more questions. One is with respect to the capi talizing of this endeavour.

What mechanisms would be in place to e nsure that the services that are offered by this new corporate entity would, in fact, continue to grow and meet the diffe rent and potenti ally expanding needs of the department? •

(1610) Mr. Cummings : Well , I think if the concepts of competitiveness are there and fee for service and the department prioritizing its own nee ds as well, then there needs to be capitalization. One of the problems that we have had in the last few years is, frankly, that we probably should have capitalized the lab more, but because there was some thinking and certainly there was a tight budgetaly situation all the way around, whether it was this lab or whether it was other departments, there nee ded to be some broader discussion about the position of labs in the future of the province .

H we want to have a develo pment in a certain area in the pr ovince, we need to have aggressi ve laboratory services. This is one way of coming at it. The issue that the member raised earlier-I have had it pointed out to me that the EITC board does not, in fact, become involved in the day-to-day operations of the lab. Ht here was any potential for interf erence beyond the broader policymaking aspect, that certainly would be minimi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-42
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 42.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ffcb4e79c2f1436e94c99fb72d3af56ce0797b9c

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