Manitoba Hansard — 24 April 2008 (Sitting 30B, 39th Legislature, 2nd Session)

39-2-30b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LX No. 30B – 1:30 p.m., Thursday, April 24, 2008 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P.

SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April 24, 2008 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 210–The Winter Spreading of Manure and Biosolids Prohibition Act Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the MLA for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that Bill 210, The Winter Spreading of Manure and Biosolids Prohibition Act; Loi interdisant l'épandage hivernal de déjections et de biosolides, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, this bill prohibits the spreading of manure and solid material from sewage on land in winter except where water bodies draining the land are tested regularly and are shown to have very low levels of phosphorus. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 29–The Business Practices Amendment Act (Disclosing Motor Vehicle Information) Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Mackintosh), that Bill 29, The Business Practices Amendment Act (Disclosing Motor Vehicle Information); Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les pratiques commerciales (communication de renseignements concernant les véhicules auto- mobiles), be now read a first time Motion presented. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to introduce this bill today which will provide better protection for consumers when they are purchasing or leasing a vehicle. This amendment will require a supplier, including a dealer, to give a consumer certain information about the vehicle and its history, including whether it has been determined to be a lemon in another jurisdiction. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 30–The Crown Lands Amendment Act Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): I move, seconded by the Minister of Science, Technology, Energy and Mi nes (Mr. Rondeau), that Bill 30, The Crown Lands Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les terres domaniales, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Struthers: This bill makes changes relating to administration of Crown lands. The bill provides for the minister to approve the sale or transfer of Crown land valued at $25,000 or less or lands held in trust for a municipality or local government district. In addition, the bill modernizes and improves expediency, accountability and transparency by providing a committee of deputy ministers to approve interests in Crown land acquired by department employees in certain situations. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Lake Dauphin Fishery Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: Fishing is an important industry on Lake Dauphin. To help ensure the sustainability of Lake Dauphin fishery, it is essential that spawning fish in the lake and its tributaries are not disturbed during the critical reproductive cycle.

A seasonal moratorium on harvesting fish in Lake Dauphin and its tributaries may help create an environment that will produce a natural cycle of fish for Lake Dauphin, therefore ensuring a balanced stock of fish for all groups who harvest fish on the lake.

1022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 2008 We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Water Stewardship (Ms. Melnick) to consider placing a moratorium on harvesting of any species of fish on Lake Dauphin and its tributaries for the period of April 1 to May 15 annually. To request the Minister of Water Stewardship to consider doing regular studies of fish stocks on Lake Dauphin to help gauge the health of the fishery and to consider determining any steps needed to protect or enhance those stocks.

This petition is signed by Donna Adelis, Brendon Edel, Jackie Edel and many, many others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Dividing of Trans-Canada Highway Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The seven-kilometre stretch of the Trans-Canada Highway passing through Headingley is an extremely busy stretch of road, averaging 18,000 vehicles daily. This

section of the Trans-Canada Highway is one of the few remaining stretches of undivided highway in Manitoba, and it has seen more than 100 accidents in the last two years, some of them fatal. Manitoba's Assistant Deputy Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation told a Winnipeg radio station on October 16, 2007, that when it comes to highways projects the provincial government has a flexible response program, and we have a couple of opportunities to advance these projects in our five-year plan.

In the interests of protecting motorist safety, it is critical that the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley is completed as soon as possible. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) to consider making the completion of the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley in 2008 an urgent provincial government priority.

To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to consider evaluating whether any other steps can be taken to improve motorist safety while the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley is being completed. This is signed by Steve Bruce, Carla Mendres, Carol Wald and many others. Lake Dauphin Fishery Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition. These are the reasons for this petition: Fishing is an important industry on Lake Dauphin.

To help ensure the sustainability of the Lake Dauphin fishery, it is essential that spawning fish in the lake and its tributaries are not disturbed during the critical reproductive cycle. A seasonal moratorium on the harvesting of fish in Lake Dauphin and its tributaries may help create an environment that will produce a natural cycle of fish for Lake Dauphin, therefore ensuring a balanced stock of fish for all groups who harvest fish on the lake. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Water Stewardship (Ms.

Melnick) to consider placing a moratorium on harvesting of any species of fish on Lake Dauphin and its tributaries for the period of April 1 to May 15 annually. To request the Minister of Water Stewardship to consider doing regular studies of fish stocks on Lake Dauphin to help gauge the health of the fishery and to consider determining any steps needed to protect or enhance those stocks. This is signed by Phyllis Brunen, Rob Eastoe, Z. Zurba and many, many others. Long-Term Care Facility–Morden Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

April 24, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1023 The background for this petition is as follows: Tabor Home Incorporated is a time-expired personal care home in Morden with safety, environmental and space deficiencies. The seniors of Manitoba are valuable members of the community with in creasing health-care needs requiring long-term care. The community of Morden and the surrounding area are experiencing substantial population growth. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health (Ms.

Oswald) to strongly consider giving priority for funding to develop and staff a new 100-bed long-term care facility so that clients are not exposed to unsafe conditions and so that Boundary Trails Health Centre beds remain available for acute-care patients instead of waiting placement clients. This is signed by Susan Teigrob, Hilda Klassen, George Froese, Peter Klassen and many, many others. Child-Care Centres Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly: These are the reasons for this petition: There is an ongoing critical shortage of child- care spaces throughout Manitoba, particularly in fast- growing regions such as south Winnipeg. The provincial government has not adequately planned for the child-care needs of growing communities like Waverley West where the construction of thousands of homes will place immense pressure on the already overburdened child-care system.

The severe shortage of early childhood educators compounds the difficulty parents have finding licensed child care and has forced numerous centres to operate with licensing exemptions due to a lack of qualified staff. Child-care centres are finding it increasingly difficult to operate within the funding constraints set by the provincial government to the point that they are unable to provide wages and benefits sufficient to retain child-care workers.

As a result of these deficiencies in Manitoba's child-care system, many families and parents are growing increasingly frustrated and desperate, fearing that they will be unable to find licensed child care and may be forced to stop working as a result. In an economy where labour shortages are common, the provision of sustainable and accessible child care is critical. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr.

Mackintosh) to consider addressing the shortage of early childhood educators by enabling child-care centres to provide competitive wages and benefits. To urge the Minister of Family Services and Housing to consider adequately planning for the future child- care needs of growing communities and to consider making the development of a sustainable and accessible child-care system a priority.

To urge the Minister of Family Services and Housing to consider the development of a governance body that would provide direction and support to the volunteer boards of child-care centres and to consider the development of regionalized central wait lists for child care. To encourage all members of the Legislative Assembly to consider becoming more closely involved with the operations of the licensed day-care facilities in their constituencies. This is signed by Dianne Draho, Dennis Massinon, Rachel Peech and many, many more. Manitoba Liquor Control Commission Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: The Manitoba Liquor Control Commission has substantially raised the cost of annual liquor licences for restaurants, cocktail lounges and other Manitoba businesses. The MLCC justifies this increase by stating that the cost of an annual licence is being increased to better reflect rising administration costs. For some small-business owners, the cost of an annual liquor licence has more than doubled. These

1024 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 2008 fee hikes are a significant burden for business owners. The decision to increase the annual licence fee, while at the same time eliminating the 2 percent supplementary licence fee payable on the purchase of spirits, wine and coolers, has the effect of greatly disadvantaging smaller businesses. Small businesses, which do not purchase liquor from MLCC in large volumes, will not receive the same benefit from the elimination of the supplementary fee. Instead, they are facing substantially in creased costs simply to keep their doors open.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister responsible for the administration of The Liquor Control Act (Mr.

Swan) to consider working with MLCC to find alternative means of addressing rising administrative costs; and To request the Minister responsible for the administration of The Liquor Control Act to consider working with MLCC to revise the decision to implement a significant annual licence fee increase; and To urge the Minister responsible for the administration of The Liquor Control Act to consider ensuring that the unique challenges faced by small businesses are better taken into account in the future. This petition is signed by Cindy Skanderberg, Lisa-May Johnson, Catherine Bette and many, many other Manitobans.

COMMITTEE REPORTS Standing Committee on Public Accounts Second Report Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the Second Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Public Accounts– Mr. Speaker: Dispense? Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Public Accounts presents the following as its Second Report. Meetings Your committee met on the following occasions: November 28, 2005 April 23, 2008 All meetings were held in Room 255 of the Legislative Building.

Matters under Consideration Auditor General's Report – A Review of Crown Corporations Council and Compliance Audits dated March 2004 Committee Membership Committee membership for the November 28, 2005, meeting: Mr. Caldwell Mr. Cummings Mr. Hawranik Mr. Maguire Mr. Maloway (Vice-Chairperson) Mr. Martindale Mr. Nevakshonoff Mr. Reimer (Chairperson) Mr. Santos Hon. Mr. Selinger Committee membership fo r the April 23, 2008, meeting: Mr. Borotsik Ms. Braun Mr. Derkach (Chairperson) Ms. Howard Mr. Jha Mr. Lamoureux Mr. Maguire Mr. Maloway (Vice-Chairperson) Mr. Martindale Hon. Mr. Selinger Mrs.

Stefanson Officials Speaking on Record Officials speaking on the record at the April 23, 2008, meeting: Carol Bellringer, Auditor General Reports Considered and Passed

April 24, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1025 Your committee considered and passed the following reports as presented: Auditor General's Report – A Review of Crown Corporations Council and Compliance Audits dated March 2004 Mr. Maloway: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member fo r Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, Departmental Expenditure Estimates '08-09 for Education, Citizenship and Youth. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today a group from Grafton and Richland colonies who are the guests of the honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler). Also in the public gallery we have with us from Sun Valley School 72 grade 4 students under the direction of Mandy Vanderhooft.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Manitoba Hydro Power Line Future Rate Increases Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): The existing two bipole transmission lines transmit 75 percent of Manitoba's generating capacity to southern Manitoba. They are literally a lifeline for our province. They ensure that the lights can stay on in our homes, in our offices, our hospitals and our other facilities.

They're also fundamental strategic assets for our ability to sell electricity to other markets, Mr. Speaker. The need for a third bipole is driven by the need to enhance the reliability of our power grid in the event that those two lifelines should go down for any reason. Mr. Speaker, on March 26, just about three weeks ago, before the Manitoba Public Utilities Board at the general rate application hearing, Mr. Peters, who's counsel to the Manitoba Public Utilities Board was asking questions of Harold Surminski, who's a

section head in the resource planning and market analysis department of Manitoba Hydro. In those questions, Mr. Peters said, and I'll table copies of the transcript, he said, electric engineering reasons when a bipole can only be loaded with 2,000 megawatts, if sided on the west side, when Bipoles I and II aren't in service, compared to 3,000 that could be loaded if we're on the east side. Mr. Surminski's response was yes, that is the case, highlighting the fact there's 1,000 megawatts of lost energy on the west versus the east, if Bipoles I and II should go down.

Under further questioning later in the hearing, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Peters, counsel to the Public Utilities Board, asked Mr. Surminski about the financial implications in the event of the loss of Bipoles I and II, and he said that if we had a four- month incident, it would be a $160-million negative financial consequence by having a west-routed Bipole III, assuming no Bipol es I and II in service. He goes on to say that the impact on the retained earnings of Hydro would end up costing half a billion dollars in the event of that sort of incident. Mr.

Ian Page, manager of financial planning for Manitoba Hydro, responded, and I quote, it would get that big if you chose not to have any change to the rate increases and then you had interest compounding, but something that large, you may want to change your rates. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier why it is that he's concealed the fact that he's exposing the next generation of Manitobans to the added risk of half a billion dollars off of the retained earnings of Manitoba Hydro because of his directive to go down the long west-side route rather than the recommended east-side route? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): Well, Mr. Speaker, the only concealment of issues of reliability and cost were made in the early 1990s when a Farlinger report was prepared for the former Cabinet, and they hid the report from people of Manitoba about the impact of cancelling both Conawapa and a converter station to back up transmission. We have fully conceded, from the time that we were elected, that the existing infrastructure in Manitoba represents a reliability liability.

1026 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 2008 We've confirmed that again in the committee on Hydro. You can quantify that. It was quantified to the former government. I forget the number. If a reliability issue happened without the converter station and without the additional transmission, we actually thought the best way to proceed on dealing with the cost of reliability and the cost of conversion stations was increased revenues through export sales. We made that very clear. This matter was discussed at committee, Mr. Speaker.

Other testimony before the PUB, including works and calculations made by the Consumers' Bureau, lawyers from Consumers' Bureau, again fully out in the open. In fact, they're so out in the open, the member opposite has the transcript. * (13:50) The Farlinger report, Mr. Speaker, did deal with issues of reliability and, as I understand it, the previous Cabinet wouldn't release the Farlinger report, never made it public. They never, ever made it public. The Farlinger report that we received has not only been made public, it's on the Web site. You can go there and see it. Anybody can read it.

People that are covering and dealing with this issue can have it available to them. There is a liability in Manitoba that can be quantified on the issue of reliability without additional transmission and without a converter station. The Dorsey station was recommended to the former Cabinet ministers that are in this House. We've acknowledged that, but we thought the best way to pay for it is increased sales, increased revenue and increased investment, both in transmission and in converter stations, Mr. Speaker.

That's obviously the public strategy we're taking, and, obviously, some of these issues are referred to in the Farlinger report. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Premier again for that history lesson, and I know he's keen to debate past premiers on decisions that have been made in the past. I would certainly encourage him to take the opportunity to organize an academic forum that maybe he and Mr. Pawley and Mr.

Filmon and Duff Roblin and others may want to attend to debate these issues, but if we could just move to decisions being made under this Premier's watch, the decision that was made within the last year to direct Manitoba Hydro to go down the west side versus the east side, issues that were not raised at committee, which have never been disclosed by him or his Hydro minister to date, which are emerging under sworn testimony before the Public Utilities Board just over three weeks ago. I want to ask the Premier, yesterday he was talking about $410 million in added construction costs.

We also know that there are going to be losses in revenue due to line loss. Even a conservative estimate of $15 million a year translates into another $600 million over 40 years with price increases and inflation. I want to ask the Premier, though, why he has hidden from Manitobans the added exposure of half a billion dollars caused by his decision in the event that Bipoles I and II go down. Why has he hidden that potential rate increase from Manitoba seniors? Why has he hidden it from the next generation of Manitobans, who are going to have to pay the price for his reckless misadventures with Manitoba Hydro? Mr.

Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba seniors are ably represented. I think Mr. Williams, Mr. Byron Williams is counsel for consumers and seniors before the committees. He's a pretty smart lawyer. He's been critical of the government in the past. He's been supportive of resolutions in the past. We expect that as part of the PUB process. His interventions have taken place on a number of different areas throughout rate settings at the PUB and include cross-examinations on these issues. His figure is quoted publicly on behalf of seniors and consumers.

I would also point out that the Farlinger report has advantages and disadvantages of the west side. It has advantages and disadvantages of the east side. It actually has one recommendation: that we do not proceed with the third transmission line down the Interlake. He then goes on to say that because of the major land use issues affecting both the west side, in terms of available land, and the east side, that the Hydro board and Hydro management should ask the provincial government for their views. It's in the report. It doesn't say, don't go down this side and don't go down that side. Mr.

Farlinger also, in the early 1990s–I believe he was a consultant–said there was a major liability of billions of dollars, billions of dollars, in terms of reliability of export sales, billions of dollars in terms of reliability for Manitoba businesses if a Dorsey converter station and a further transmission line is not built.

April 24, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1027 Members opposite concealed the report and cancelled Conawapa. We have made the Farlinger report public, Mr. Speaker– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: The report is on the Web. The matter of reliability in transmission, I believe, I know is contained in the Farlinger report. I know it was discussed in the committee in December. Obviously, the report is on the Web site and if, you know, people don't have a computer, perhaps that's concealing it, but it's on the Web site. I'd recommend the member go there. Mr.

McFadyen: The Farlinger report doesn't deal with this risk. It deals in a general way with a variety of considerations. It talks, in fact, about the position taken by world Forest Watch about the endangered western boreal forest, but, Mr. Speaker, to bring it back to this point, they've been using numbers like 410 million. They've been–yesterday left out the finances, financial loss connected with line loss.

We now know–have learned through PUB cross- examination–not by any political person but by counsel to the Public Utilities Board of Manitoba who brought out the fact that there's an added potential exposure risk of half a billion dollars which would wipe out one-quarter of the revenue from the Wisconsin power sale that he announced with great fanfare last week.

So I want to ask the Premier the same question that Manitobans everywhere are asking us: Given the fact that this directive to Hydro is so wrong on every count, wrong financially, wrong for Manitoba Hydro, wrong for the environment, wrong for people on the east side of Manitoba, wrong, wrong, wrong, the question is, why? Mr. Doer: The issues raised by the member opposite are on page 5 of the Farlinger report. The Farlinger report goes into the cost issue. Obviously, the east side is a more direct route, we've always acknowledged that. We've been up front, it costs more. We've used the numbers that Mr.

Brennan has used. Regrettably, the member opposite has not used the numbers Mr. Brennan has used. He had to write a letter to the editor, a letter to the editors, some of which get published, some of which don't. The engineer, Mr. Blatz, on a public forum a couple of days ago admitted it wasn't the 1.5 million number used by the member opposite, it was the smaller amount of money that was used by Mr. Brennan. The issue of line loss, Mr. Speaker, there's a 75 megawatt benefit over the existing bipoles, but the longer route over a theoretical route on the east side has a different line loss.

We've acknowledged that up front. It's again in the Farlinger report. The member opposite can look at the Farlinger report which describes arguments for either route. It does raise the issue of a serious or of an economic risk with major customers. We believe that the member opposite has been wrong about export sales. He's been wrong about revenues. He's been wrong about capital costs. Another letter written, Mr. Speaker, but not published again, but we've all received copies of it. The Leader of the Oppositio n has received a copy of it. It's from Professor Jo hn Ryan. Mr.

McFadyen would be well-advised to get his own factual house– [interjection] I'm quoting from– Mr. Speaker: Order. When addressing members in the House, it's by the titles they hold or ministers by their portfolios, even when quoting from letters. Mr. Doer: Professor John Ryan said the Leader of the Opposition would be well-advised to get his own factual house in order. He's talking fairy tales about additional expenses on the west route. His numbers, obviously, are a factually–he states here, fabricated data he's putting on the record. Mr.

Speaker, the Farlinger report deals with the issues raised by the member opposite. It was made public. It was debated for four hours in the committee in December. I would ask people to look at that. The PUB is dealing with testimony. The Consumer's Association has said that, in their opinion, it would be 3 percent greater in terms of rates, the west side versus the east side. We believe that will be more than overcome by increased revenues, with increased sales, with increased production. That's what we believe. That's what Mr. Brennan believes.

But, even assuming the Consumer's Bureau is correct, we believe the more doable line, the way of getting it done–I know that's not a word that's used by members opposite–the best way to get a transmission route completed is to pick the one that is most easily achieved. If the member opposite wants to roll–[interjection] * (14:00)

1028 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 2008 Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: –the dice on new dams, new economic activity, new sales to Mi nnesota, new sales to Wisconsin, if he wants to roll the dice on that, he can go right ahead. We're proud of the fact that we are going to continue to build Manitoba Hydro for the benefit of our next generation, Mr. Speaker. As I said, with the letter that Mr.

Brennan has issued and the testimony that's provided, has the assertions made and mailed to taxpayers fall like a hous e of cards on the issue of increased sales and the need for two converter stations, not one as he proposes. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition on a new question. Standing Committee Meeting Attendance of Dr. Ryan Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Doer) still hasn't responded to the question of why he hadn't disclosed to Manitobans this extra half billion dollars in exposure related to his political directive. Mr.

Speaker, I will say to the Premier in response to his questions quoting from Dr. Ryan that, subsequent to that letter, I had the privilege of meeting with Dr. Ryan. We had a very, very interesting discussion. In fact, I invited Dr. Ryan to come and testify before the Crown Corporations committee. He would be pleased to attend. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier, given that he's using Dr. Ryan as his authority, whether he agrees with me; his committee members will support Dr.

Ryan's appearance at the next Crown Corporations committee and whether the Premier will acknowledge the fact that he's the one who said that Wuskwatim would cost $800 million. It's double that. Hydro towers, $75 million, quadruple that. He wants to use Dr. Ryan as his authority. Will he put his money where his mouth is and agree to have his committee members invite Dr. Ryan to come and testify before committee, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the member knows that the rules allow– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Doer: The members know that committees allow the members of the committee to determine who will appear or not. There are many people that can talk about this issue on either side, including Dr. Ryan. The first question in the House I asked was on water and its treatment. That's why one of the first pieces of legislation we brought in was based on advice Dr. Ryan made about the need to protect bulk water from sale to the United States; that was left unprotected in legislation produced by members opposite. It was one of the first pieces of legislation we brought in. I respect Dr. Ryan's advice.

He's also providing advice directly to Mr. Brennan on the underwater route, and Mr. Brennan is doing work. So I have no difficulty with the committee calling whomever it wants to call. It's always been under the purview of the committee. On the issue of– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the issue of the reliability and the liability of reliability on transmission lines exists, also, if we build no transmission lines. There is a huge cost of doing nothing. In fact, there's even a bigger cost of doing nothing.

The easiest thing for any government to do is do what members opposite do. Do nothing. There is a huge liability of billions of dollars to do nothing on transmission lines in terms of reliability and to do nothing on converter stations on reliability. Now, that is the route that members opposite took. The do-nothing route creates the largest liability for Manitoba. It's the same as the floodway proposal. The floodway proposal was a $70-million liability per year, if we did nothing to go from one-in-a-hundred years' protection to one-in-700 years.

This issue of having transmission lines that can be at risk because they go through the same portal, the issue of the lack of converter stations is a huge billion dollar liability for Manitoba. That's why we are planning a new transmission line. That's why we're planning two converter stations. To try to mix up that liability-of-reliabil ity issue, Mr. Speaker, again does not deal with the Farlinger report that was released in committee. Manitoba Hydro Power Line East-Side Economic Benefits Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): I appreciate the discouragement that the Member for Rupertsland

April 24, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1029 must feel at the decision that his Premier has made to abandon the east-side transmission line and slam the door on this economic development opportunity. Mr. Speaker, the minister's commitment to tackling poverty is well-known. I ask the Member for Rupertsland, the Minister of Culture: Will he side with his constituents and tell the Premier that he should work with them to build an east-side line and help tackle the economic hardships that they're trying to deal with? Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage, Tourism and Sport): Mr.

Speaker, I'm glad I have the opportunity to wade into this issue in this House. Y e s , I a m o n t h e s i d e o f t h e p e o p l e t h a t I represent. I've been their representative since 1993, so I think I'm doing something right. I also want to say that over the years I've had the opportunity of visiting people in their homes and their communities, going hunting with, in fact, some of the elders, listening first-hand to the devastating effects that development has had on Indian people generally in North America, and more specifically to the communities on the east side.

What I've heard over and over again is, no, to a transmission line because of the effects that it'll bring upon the land and the surroundings and the livelihood that people have made for generations off the land and Mother Earth. So I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, yes, I indeed side with the constituents– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, earlier this week at the University of Winnipeg two east-side chiefs, one a constituent for the Member for Rupertsland, showed their frustration at th e Premier's (Mr. Doer) falsehoods about the position.

Chief Cook and Chief Fontaine both expressed a frustration– Mr. Speaker: Order. Let's pick our words carefully here. All members in the House are honourable members, and making reference of a member using falsehoods and stuff like that, I'd be very careful. The honourable Member for Minnedosa has the floor. Mrs. Rowat: I withdraw the statement. Chief Cook and Chief Fontaine both expressed frustration at the Premier's statement that they were demanding ownership of the line. That is not correct. They said, and they want to see some benefit-sharing from the transmission line, big difference, Mr.

Speaker, big difference. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Culture is an honourable person, but the Premier has pit him against his constituents. Whom will he side with today, the people who elected him as their representative, or the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer)? Mr. Robinson: Well, in fact, Mr. Speaker, I'm very proud of the Premier of this province who has visited just about every community on the east side. It has been a pleasure travelling with him to each of these communities.

He, too, has heard first-hand from the elders, the trappers, the fishers and others who make a livelihood off the land that they don't want disrupted. Yes, there were some words exchanged between the chief of Bloodvein and I. He's just as frustrated with the poverty of Indian people as the Member for Minnedosa and I are, and we're trying to find ways to ensure that we eradicate poverty off the face of our province, and ultimately in Canada. It's frustrating, and all of us ought to be sharing in that frustration.

I also want to say that Chief Donovan Fontaine had some issues on matters that directly relate to his community because that community has been affected directly by hydro development for generations– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, the chiefs for Berens River, Wasagamack, Red Sucker Lake, St. Theresa Point, Island Lake, they all have a voice in this, and they all have an opposition to this Member for Concordia. The Member for Rupertsl and is well-known for his care about social and youth issues.

It must be extremely disappointing for him, personally, to see hundreds of millions wasted on a transmission line that could be money spent on social development for the people that he represents. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Member for Rupertsland: Will he stand up for the people who elected him and demand the Premier work in good faith with them to build a Bipole III line on the east side of Lake Winnipeg?

1030 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 2008 Mr. Robinson: As I indicated, I've been elected since 1993 and I've been fortunate that I've been re-elected in every election since. I want to say that I have listened to the peop le very carefully. I have listened to the leadership. Unfortunately, I believe, that after some misinformation was directed toward the leadership of the east side that they would have an opportunity to own the land and lease it back to Hydro, which is not in the cards, Mr. Speaker, that misinformation was conveyed. As in any family, we have disagreement.

Ultimately, I side with the constituents that elected me, Mr. Speaker, and I will continue to stand in this Chamber and continue to echo the words that have been conveyed to me about no to a transmission line on the east side of this province. Violent Crime Reduction Strategies Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): So far this month, I've asked the Justice Minister eight questions in question period, and in seven out of eight responses to those questions he blamed the federal Criminal Code for his own failures. May I remind the minister, Mr. Speaker, that the Criminal Code applies evenly throughout all of Canada.

It applies the same in British Columbia; it applies the same in Saskatchewan; it applies the same in Ontario, evenly in every province throughout all of Canada. However, Winnipeg is the violent crime capital of Canada. So I ask the Minister of Justice: Did it ever occur to him to look at other provinces, to look at what they're doing to reduce violent crime in their province? * (14:10) Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): In November, when every provincial Justice minister was in Winnipeg, with the federal Justice Minister–I'm not blaming the federal, because there were 13, 14 governments there, 14 governments–all the governments, including the minister from Alberta where Edmonton was the violence capital, unfortunately, of the country, all urged this other level of government that has control of the Criminal Code unanimously to amend the Criminal Code on the recommendations put forward by Manitoba and Nova Scotia.

I'm sorry that the member doesn't get it, but I got a letter from the federal MP today saying the federal government's done a really good job of criminal law in this country, and I say, not fast enough, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, seven out of eight questions he blamed the federal government. Blaming the federal government by this minister for his own failures is a recurring theme to this Minister of Justice.

May I remind the minister, that an all-party delegation travelled to Ottawa to make recommendations last fall and the Conservative government in Ottawa co-operated, and they're making those changes in spite of opposition from the federal NDP? So I ask the Minister of Justice: While Jack Layton opposes Conservative legislation to get tough on crime, will this minister continue to campaign on behalf of Jack Layton in Manitoba? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, what the member is saying is patently wrong. When we visited all of the parties in Ottawa, the NDP and the Liberals said they would support our mission, No. 1.

Number 2, the NDP supported the legislation in the House. Number 3, the federal Minister of Justice invited m e t o c o m e t o O t t a w a t o s t a n d b e s i d e h i m , b e h i n d him, in front of him, to support this legislation. He invited me to come to Ottawa on behalf of the work that's been done by this NDP government. That's one of the reasons, Mr. Speaker, that the laws are taking effect May 1 by regulation, and the laws with respect to the dangerous offenders and impaired driving are going to match Manitoba law taking effect July 1. They followed Manitoba law as a result of Manitoba lobby.

I'm happy we're going to have a safer country as a result of these changes that we asked for. Mr. Hawranik: In that rant he didn't answer the question. Obviously, he doesn't know the answer. Mr. Speaker, one of this Justice Minister's federal counterpar ts, NDP MP Pat Martin wants to get tough on the penny. It certainly would be worth this minister's time to call Pat Martin to demand that he get tougher on crime. I ask this Minister of Justice: Given the federal NDP's soft crime stance, will he at least tear up his federal NDP membership card? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I want to thank the member of Parliament, Mr. Martin, for his great support of the private member's resolution that

April 24, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1031 would make it a criminal offence and a much more serious offence, a crime against persons, to deal with a stolen car. It's something we reiterated in our public comments with the Prime Minister at the MPI centre. As I understand it, we have always said that if anybody slows down legislation in Parliament or opposes it when it's in the public interest, whether it's a Tory, NDP, Liberal, Green , Bloc Québécois, we will call it like we see it. We think those laws should– Mr. Speaker: Order. Lake Dauphin Fishery Management Plan Mrs.

Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Lake Dauphin was once recognized in major fishing and recreational magazines such as Outdoor Canada and In-Fisherman as one of the top 10 lakes for walleye fishing on the continent. Yet, unfortunately, it has lost this prestigious ranking this year because of declining fish stocks. Given that the health of the fish stocks should be of paramount importance to this government, is the minister prepared today to implement and enforce a conservation closure on Lake Dauphin's tributaries in order to protect the spawning fish and help ensure fish stocks can be replenished? Hon.

Christine Melnic k (Minister of Water Stewardship): We are very aware of concerns around Dauphin Lake. We're very aware of concerns around the spawning grounds, which is why we are working with the Western Region Tribal Council on a conservation plan, making sure that the fishery is sustainable. We are providing sustenance to the First Nations people as is their treaty right. We are also building capacity within the local community. We are working with the loca l community, Mr. Speaker.

We have had a very positive response from them, and we will continue working with all the people of Manitoba to have a healthy fishery throughout our province. Mrs. Stefanson: I'm glad, Mr. Speaker, that the minister is aware of this issue, but I guess the more pressing question is: When is she going to do something about it?

On a cover letter for the 2006 and 2007 Manitoba Water Stewardship Annual Report, the minister stated that her, and I quote, department's fisheries monitoring and management programs continue to ensure that fish stocks remain healthy and viable for future ge nerations, yet people are concerned that spawning fish are not being protected. A conservation closure was enacted and enforced in 1999 on Lake Dauphin's tributaries in order to protect and conserve spawning walleye. Clearly that is not happening now.

Is the Minister of Water Stewardship prepared to implement and enforce a conservation closure on Lake Dauphin's tributaries in order to protect the spawning fish and help ensure fish stocks can be replenished in future years? Ms. Melnick: Again, we're working with the Western Regional Tribal Council. We are running a pilot project in which we are working toward protecting the spawning fish. It will be the post-spawn fish that will be caught by a trap net. There will be controlled handing over of the fish to individuals who are interested.

We are also working with the elder community, again through the Western Regional Tribal Council. This is their pilot project. We're very happy to be supportive of it. There is a strong capacity-building issue here, Mr. Speaker. There is a strong educational issue here. There is respect for the elders here. We know that in working towards a sustainable fishery there are a lot of creative ways that we can make this happen, and we will work with local communities around those ways. * (14:20) Mrs. Stefanson: I guess, Mr.

Speaker, what that means is that she is not willing to protect the fish stock in Lake Dauphin, and I think that's rather unfortunate. So if the Minister of Water Stewardship is not willing to do her job and protect the fish stocks in Lake Dauphin, I'm wondering if the minister responsible for Conservation in this province, the MLA for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), is willing to stand up for his community, stand up for his lakes, protect the fish in his lakes and ensure that we implement a conservation order in order to protect the spawning and replenish the stock in the lake. Ms. Melnick: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'm not sure what part of working with th e local community for a sustainable fishery the Member for Tuxedo doesn't understand. Again, we are working with the local community, we are aware of concerns, we are finding creative ways to ensure that there is a sustainable fishery for this generation and all future generations. We're working with Western Regional Tribal Council who are proving to be excellent

1032 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 2008 partners, tremendous vision, great creativity, working with the elders, working on education, again, for the sustainable fishery of all of Manitoba. I would encourage members opposite, instead of always complaining about creative actions, to be part of the solution. They might find life a bit better here if they were willing to work with individuals as we do. Lake Dauphin Conservation Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, since 2001, close to half a million dollars has been spent on the development of a co-management plan for the Lake Dauphin fishery in co-operation with the West Regional Tribal Council. I ask the minister: How much more are the taxpayers of Manitoba going to spend to get a plan in place? The pickerel stocks continue to decline. The actions taken by this government have failed. Morally, how can you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and still allow the fishery to decline? When will this government table a management plan? Hon. Christine Melnic k (Minister of Water Stewardship): Mr.

Speaker, we value the fishery here in Manitoba. That is why we were the first government to bring in an organized fisheries group, the Manitoba inland fisher s federation. I was very pleased to attend their annual general meeting just this past Saturday in Gimli. There was very good discussion. There is very good planning. I was very pleased to award some 28 awards to long-term commercial fishers in our province. Last year, I awarded 99. We are working with all the fishers of this province. We are working to make sure that there is a sustainable fishery for all of Manitoba.

Sometimes it means working on individual lakes, individual tributaries, individual streams, but we have the big picture. Too bad– Mr. Speaker: Order. Crown Corporations Council Manitoba Hydro Capital Investigation Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, the Crown Corporations Council has a legislative mandate to review all capital proposals that are brought forward from our Crown corporations. That also includes the Manitoba Hydro. We know that the Crown Council submits on a quarterly basis at the very least, to the Minister of Finance, a report on what's happening with the Crown Council.

My question for the Minister of Finance is: Is he prepared today to table any documentation that he has received from the Crown corporation related to the capital investigation that the Crown corporation has a legal, legislative mandate to do? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, the Crown Corps Council does review capital for all the Crowns, makes a recommendation to Treasury Board as part of the budget process and that winds up being documented in our budget papers which are disclosed and put in front of the public here when we draw up the budget in this Legislature.

That information is available to the member opposite and if he wishes to discuss it with me at Estimates in about 35 minutes, we can have a conversation about that. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I would assume that the Crown Corporations Council would have taken a look at the three options: the east side, the west side and under Lake Winnipeg. A specific question to the Minister of Finance: Has the Crown Corporations Council provided any recommendations or opinions on where the capital expenditure should go with respect to Manitoba Hydro? Mr. Selinger: No. Mr. Lamoureux: Well, Mr.

Speaker, there's a legislative mandate for this Crown corporation to be going over capital proposals. We should be concerned when we have information–and it goes right to the top. We could talk about Mr. Brennan when he made comments that there's oil in the underwater lines which is absolutely false, Mr. Speaker. It's not true. There is no oil that goes in those lines. Mr. Speaker, there is a serious issue of information that is needed, and we have to be prepared to look at all three proposals. In listening to the answers from the Premier earlier today, I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter what makes sense.

It has to be the west side be cause this Premier refuses to swallow his pride, and he wants to play more party politics and protect the NDP interests as opposed to the taxpayers of this province. I'm asking the Premier to do the right thing and to tell this Chamber that he has an open mind in

April 24, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1033 dealing with those three proposals that are before us today. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Yes, I have an open mind. Mr. Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Red Hat Day Ms. Erin Selby (Southdale): I rise today to announce that April 25, 2008, will be proclaimed Red Hat Day by the Province of Manitoba in honour of the Red Hat Society's 10th anniversary. I will have the privilege of presenting the proclamation on behalf of the honourable Minister of Labour and Immigration (Ms. Allan) tomorrow at their 10th anniversary birthday bash.

The goal of the Red Hat Society is to create an atmosphere of fun where women can gather and celebrate all while donning their signature purple outfits and red hats. It's inspiring to see how these women are still so very young at heart. The first

chapter of the Manitoba Red Hat Society was founded in Southdale by Shirley Scaletta back in 2001. She had been inspired to found the

chapter after learning of the organization during a trip to Arizona. Southdale' s Prairie Pearls, as they call themselves, are still going strong after seven years. Since the founding of that first Manitoba

chapter back in 2001, the Red Hat Society has grown to 140 chapters throughout our province. I'd also like to acknowledge the hard work of Rossita Schau, a member of the Southdale Prairie Pearls, and co-chairperson of the 10th anniversary birthday bash in making all of this possible. Please join me in wishing happy birthday to the Red Hat Society and in thanking Southdale red hatters, Shirley Scaletta and Rossita Schau. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. National Soil Conservation Week Mr.

Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): I rise today to recognize and bring attention to National Soil Conservation Week which runs from April 20 through 26. This year will be the 23rd year that Canada has recognized National Soil Conservation Week. During this time, promotional events take place across Canada to highlight the importance of conserving vital topsoil. Soil conservation supports and sustains crop, range land and woodlot production. It helps maintain other resources such as air, water and wildlife habitat.

Today's soil conservation practices also contribute significantly in reducing and removing overall greenhouse gas emissions in Manitoba. The value of these soils to Manitoba's economy is equal to almost $4 billion. This is the amount that primary agriculture brings to the province each year, split between the livestock and cropping sectors. Soil conservation is the foundation for protecting our province's natural capital. As Manitoba celebrates, we must thank our agriculture producers for being leaders in soil conservation.

Nearly 35 percent of Manitoba's cropland is now direct seeded, which means more cover to help keep the so il in place. Producers use direct seeding and other management practices to improve water infiltration, increase seedbed moisture, enhance organic matter and reduce the risk of soil erosion. During National Soil Conservation Week, I encourage everyone to acknowledge our agriculture producers and the many organizations, including conservation districts, that are dedicated to the conservation of our soil resource. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Manitoba Olympic and Paralympic Athletes Mr.

Bidhu Jha (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I'm privileged to stand up in the House today to highlight the success of the Big Blind to Beijing reception and fundraiser in support of Manitoba athletes heading to this summer's Olympic and Paralympic Games in Beijing. As the legislative assistant to the Premier (Mr. Doer), I was pleased to be able to bring greetings on behalf of the government of Manitoba and Manitoba Lotteries, which was the title sponsor of the event. This event was held at Club Regent, in my constituency of Radisson, and was a huge success.

I was pleased to present a $10,000 donation on behalf of Manitoba Lotteries Corporation to the two local athletes, Kirby Côté and Kevin Geyson. I was also pleased to present $3,000 on behalf of the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Mr. Robinson) to Mike Moore of Canadian Sport Centre Manitoba. Along with the fundraising poker tournament, the evening featured Beijing-themed cuisine, décor and live entertainment. In addition, it provided a

1034 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 2008 wonderful opportunity for the evening's guests and participants to meet some of Manitoba's Olympic hopefuls who were also there. Mr. Speaker, preparing for the Olympics is extremely challenging for athletes physically, mentally, and also financially. I was proud, therefore, to participate in the event that played a much important role in helping ease some of the financial stress athletes and their coaches face when preparing for the Olympics.

I thank all participants and events organizations, the Canadian Sports Centre Manitoba and Manitoba Lotteries for the major role they continue to play in helping amateur athletes in Manitoba realize their dreams. On behalf of the members of this House, I'd like to wish all the athletes the very best as they prepare for the Olympics in Beijing, and I encourage our youth to keep participating in sports events as much as they can. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. * (14:30) Manitoba Book Week Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, this province boasts many home-grown written and published books that are often hidden gems waiting for readers to discover. That is why I am so pleased today to recognize Manitoba Book Week. Taking place from April 20 to 26, this week celebrates the book industry while educating Manitobans on the wonderful literary works we have right in our own backyard. Throughout the week there will be close to 30 events providing Manitobans the opportunity to discover all that the local book industry has to offer. In Winnipeg and Brandon there will be book launches and readings by local authors.

Additionally, contests are being held in Manitoba schools for those who make Manitoba Book Week 2008 displays, and the young talent of this province are encouraged to take

part in the writers' contest with this year's theme being "You Won't Believe What I Found in Manitoba." Finally, the week will conclude with the Brave New Words, the Manitoba Writing and Publishing Awards, held at the Winnipeg Art Gallery on April 26. This annual gala recognizes the contributions of the great literary community in our province. This community includes the Association of Manitoba Book Publishers, which I would like to acknowledge for their work by not only recognizing Book Week, but also for their efforts every day of the year to raise the profile of this industry in this province.

Comprised of 15 Manitoba-based publishing houses, the Association of Manitoba Book Publishers works to bring the great variety of books created in Manitoba. Whatever book one might find of interest, you can find it amongst the collection of Manitoba-made books. I encourage everyone to not only participate in Manitoba Book Week, but also take the time to discover everything this province has to offer in the literary community. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Crescent Fort Rouge United Church Ms. Jennifer Howard (Fort Rouge): Mr.

Speaker, many will know the story of the Raza family, who spent more than a year in sanctuary at Crescent Fort Rouge United Church. A dedicated group of volunteers were essential to supporting the Razas' life and sanctuary. These volunteers were teachers and fundraisers. They made grocery trips, ran errands and even late night visits to the hospital. Even as the Razas are transitioning to a life outside of the walls of the church, this same group of volunteers are helping to find permanent housing. For these volunteers supporting the Raza family is an issue of social justice.

Their resolve to make the Razas' lives better truly embodies the principles of compassion and service for which Crescent Fort Rouge United Church is known. I have enjoyed immensely my visits with the Raza family and the many volunteers that have supported them. I am inspired by their courage and persistence and the caring and commitment of the church community. Several volunteers have commented that one of the most positive aspects of working with the Razas has been the opportunity for inter-faith dialogue. This experience has surely broken down many cultural barriers and fostered understanding.

Crescent Fort Rouge has once again shown itself to be an institution full of open-minded and caring individuals. I would like to especially mention the members of the Sanctuary Committee: the Reverend Barb Janes, Bill Gillis, Barbara Ann Bryant-Anstie, Sue Morris, Rennie and Jana Smith, June Anderson,

April 24, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1035 Ken Anstie, John Schwandt, Diane Gillis, Shirley Hilton, and the chair and former chair of the Sanctuary Committee, Ken Derksen and Jim Penner. Their tireless work will represent a defining moment for the Raza family and will never be forgotten. I would ask all honourable members to join with me in congratulating these dedicated Manitobans for their hard work and passion for justice. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. House Business Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, on House business. Mr.

Gerald Hawranik (Offi cial Opposition House Leader): Yes, House business, Mr. Speaker. In accordance with rule 31(9), I would like to announce that the private member's resolution that will be considered next Thursday is the resolution on Specialty Wine Store in the city of Brandon, sponsored by the honourable Member for Brandon West (Mr. Borotsik). Mr. Speaker: Okay. In accordance with the rule 31(9), it's been announced that the private members' resolution that will be considered next Thursday is the resolution on specialty wine store in Brandon sponsored by the honourable Member for Brandon West.

ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Steve Ashton (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I believe we are proceeding into Estimates. Mr. Speaker: Just before we break into Estimates, I just want to remind the House that, by agreement, we will be sitting till 6 o'clock instead of the regular 5 o'clock adjournment, and we won't be adjourning because we will be sitting in Estimates tomorrow, which has also been agreed to, and there's been agreement that there'd be no vote or quorum calls between 4 and 6, and tomorrow. There'll be no quorum calls or votes tomorrow.

The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. In the Chamber w ill be Executive Council; room 255 will be Finance; and room 254 will be Justice. So appropriate Chairs, please go to your respective committee rooms. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) JUSTICE * (14:50) Madam Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Justice. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Yes, Madam Chairperson. Usually, in most years that I've been before the committee, I have not made opening statements, and then it occurred to me that perhaps I was selling the department short by not outlining some of the work that's been done by the department.

So, in that light, I've always wanted to utilize time best, I do want to make a few opening comments about the department because I've learnt that all of the people there are pretty hardworking and decent and often don't get the credit for all of the work that's been done , and it gets lost in the political shuffle. So, having said that, I'm going to be making opening statements, and I will proceed. As indicated, Madam Chairperson, as the members are aware, we're continuing to make significant investments in the Department of Justice at 7.7 percent this year over previous years.

This, despite some criticism and suggestion that we should only increase the budget at the rate of inflation. We, certainly, are feeling the pressure on the public safety side and the corrections side so that we feel we have no choice, but to continue to move in this area. Our primary objectives and strategies in the budget can be categorized into five major areas: safer communities, Aboriginal justice, a just society, offender accountability, and maintaining the integrity of the justice system.

It is somewhat difficult despite comments that I've heard in the House about constitutional division of powers, Madam Chairperson, that we do not have the constitutional authority to enter into criminal law. Every day I answer questions in the House about criminal law and I wish I had the ability, or I wish the department had the ability, to make criminal law but it would be unconstitutional. We daily hear questions in the House about criminal law. What we can do as a department is what we are doing, which

1036 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 2008 is taking action on gang and organized crime. Taking significant action on auto theft, we've seen a reduction of over 20 percent year over year. Improving supports for children and victims of violent crime. Strengthening our prosecutions unit, if we kept it to the rate of inflation, Madam Chairperson, we'd be laying off prosecutors. Providing strong support for policing, if we kept it at the level of inflation, Madam Chairperson, we'd be laying off police.

Strengthening the ability of courts to provide fair and effective dispositions and investing in information and communications technology. On Aboriginal justice, we're, of course, continuing to work through the recommendations of the AJIC Implementation Commission. Most significantly, Madam Chair, but often not looked at, is the work we're doing in education, training, employment/career development opportunities for Aboriginal people both within and outside of the justice system.

With respect to a just society, we're trying to make as effective a Chief Medical Examiner's Office as possible, keeping in mind there's different means of dealing with a medical examiner, whether it's a coroner's office, or medical examiner office, as we have in Manitoba, and maintaining an effective legal aid program. Again, some might criticize that the increase to legal aid tariffs is beyond the rate of inflation, but, Madam Chairperson, it's been very difficult to maintain lawyers doing legal aid cases. We've seen a drop-off, particularly in the north in rural Manitoba.

In terms of accountability, we have to provide for adequate physical infrastructure and address the needs of the special offender populations, Madam Chairperson. There are some who view that we just lock everybody up to the extent that we can, under the Criminal Code and the Youth Criminal Justice Act. We have a disproportionate amount of people in custody. You can't keep people in custody forever. You can't keep them in custody forever. You have to put in place programs; you have to put in place supports to both prevent incarceration and post- incarceration, deal with the issues.

Finally, we have to maintain the integrity of the justice system. That includes improving security for staff across the department. I can't stress that more. You know, Madam Chairperson, the face of our justice system are the men and women on the front lines who do it every single day, who have to face some of the most difficult people in difficult conditions. They do it with integrity and they do it in the interests of all of us. Like all humans, everyone makes mistakes right across all levels.

One of my favourite quotes is a doctor who was trained in Glasgow by a Nobel Prize winner who said the first lecture he received from his doctor was he would give the 10 mistakes he made that day before he would address the students. His point was, despite the training of the medical students and despite their intelligence, they were going to be like every other human being and make mistakes. They're amplified in the justice system because the justice system is easy to make headlines about. It's easy to make a report on the justice system.

It's easy to get a headline because it involves violence, it involves sex, it involves some of the worst aspects of our society, and it's very tough to work in that system, so I take my hat off to everybody that works in the system. Right across the system, I found it to be just exemplary people, right from the–at every single level. * (15:00) Safer community strategy was a priority area. We have a new justice security co-ordinator position, which will begin to implement threat management recommendations from a cross-divisional committee forum to address staff s ecurity concerns.

This position will be responsible in department-wide security. As recommended by the special council on organized crime, we've established a criminal property forfeiture unit with two new positions, Madam Chairperson. The people might question the constitutionality or the validity of our other service. We've been criticized for not being able to implement our previous act. Even though we implemented four or five acts that had significant differences, yes, we couldn't implement this act any more than the federal government could implement some of their gang strategi es. It wouldn't work. The courts tossed it.

But that doesn't mean we gave up. That doesn't mean the people in justice should be criticized. They came back with a new system, a new unit, based on a model from another province, and they're trying to make it work.

April 24, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1037 The government has tabled Bill 5, The Witness Security Act, to increase the security of witnesses testifying on organized crime. Manitoba is co-leading, with the Government of Canada, with steps to reform the Criminal Code. I'm sorry if this has taken its criticism of the federal government, but we're trying to reform the Criminal Code to target gang murders, violence and other activities to make safer communities. This isn't Winnipeg in 1965, I wish it were.

In the 1990s, I made speeches in the Legislature warning the then-government about the influence of gang activity. In 1996, three gang members were murdered in my constituency. I went to the scene. It wa s horrific. It was gang related. No response. We've been forced to play catch up. We've asked for measures and I'm very proud that the federal government is worki ng with us to reform the Criminal Code. On auto theft, it's well known what the department and what the officials at the police and MPI have been able to do to dramatically decrease auto thefts.

There, Madam Chairperson, is an example of something that was criticized, but people went forward and did it. They've decreased. Now we've learned the lessons of how to deal with, perhaps, other areas of criminal activity by collaborative approaches. Even though we've reduced it 20 percent, we still hear calls for bait cars. Winnipeg police can have bait cars. They prefer to do the method we're doing right now. I'd rather listen to the police than people th at want to get a headline.

We've invested significantly with our partner MPI on auto theft-related offences, and additional money has been given to the division's auto theft unit. In addition, we have prosecutors working in that unit. We're also improving supports for children and victims of crime. We're further expanding the Victims' Bill of Rights to include more types of charges, in particular, child sexual interference, touching and exploitation offences, and funding will be dedicated to this.

The department is also providing incurrent support to a Family Services and Housing-led initiative to establish a new child advocacy centre to improve integration of child victim advocacy services provided by Manitoba Justice and partner agencies. We'll also continue our management in investment and the maintenance enforcement management system. After all, Madam Chairperson, I believe it's something like 45,000 matters are dealt with under the Maintenance Enforcement unit. The Domestic Violence Intervention Unit will be strengthened. Madam Chairperson, every domestic violence scene is visited by police officers.

If charges are laid, there's a follow-up through the domestic violence unit. If there's no charge, there's a follow-up by the Domestic Violence Intervention Unit. No place in Canada does that. We implemented the recommendations of the Lavoie tragedy that occurred in the 1990s. Every recommendation has been implemented in order to deal with domestic violence. Still it occurs. Still we continue to work on it. Plans are under way to establish five new Lighthouses. Imagine, Madam Chairperson, 130,000 children have a safe place to go that they didn't have to go before, after hours and on weekends.

In our safer communities strate gy, we have already indicated dramatic increases to police funding, strengthened the ability of the courts to provide safer dispositions, strategies investment in communi- cation, and I haven't even got to our second priority and my time has passed. But I am very hopeful of expanding on these and other priorities as the Estimate process goes on. Thank you. Madam Chairperson: We thank the minister for his comments. Does the official opposition critic have any opening comments? Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Yes, Madam Chairperson, I do have an opening statement.

It will be a brief opening statement but, of course, the Minister of Justice has other responsibilities in government, one of them being, of course, House Leader. While this isn't about House Leader Estimates, it's about Justice Estimates, I just want to make a couple of comments on the record. I've only been the Opposition House Leader since, I think it was August of last year. I never really took a lot of notice as to what goes on in the House, to be honest with you.

I was elected in 2002, and never really paid a lot of attention to it because I focussed on a lot on my critic responsibilities at the time as they changed and evolved with time. Having taking over as Opposition House Leader in August 2007, I didn't know what to expect. What I can say publicly on the record, that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Chomiak) who is also the Government House Leader, I appreciate his co-operation in terms of organizing the House business. We always

1038 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 2008 negotiate, I find, fairly together; he usually has a lot of give-and-take on both sides. I, certainly, appreciate the fact that he's very accessible and he's very open to suggestions and so on. We always seem to be able to work things out to ensure that House business does proceed in a fairly normal fashion, although those in the gallery might disagree during question period and so on. It doesn't seem very normal, but the reality is that I appreciate what he does in terms of Government House Leader.

He's made my job, I think, a little bit easier in that respect, just as an opening comment in his extra responsibility as Government House Leader. In terms of the Justice Minister (Mr. Chomiak), I know that over the last couple of months, Madam Chair, the minister is personally in a very unfortunate set of circumstances. I can say that, in spite of all of that, I think he's been doing his job in spite of all the extra demands on his time that he may have had in the last couple of months. He's been undergoing a lot of stress that a lot of us don't go through.

As well, I wanted to make a comment that I appreciate all of the employees in the Justice Department and all of their work. They're working a lot of times under very difficult circumstances. In my observations and, I think, in lot of Manitobans' observations, they're doing a very good job as well. I appreciate all of that work that they've been doing, not only since I've been Justice critic but, of course, previous to that as well. With respect to the minister's comment about there's been some comment in the House that the budget should increase at the rate of inflation, that's not quite accurate.

I think what was said is that spending in the budget should really reflect the rate of economic growth, not inflation. Inflation is at 2 percent, sometimes less. The rate of economic growth is 3 percent to 3.5 percent at this point. There is a reason why we would, certainly, want to do that. That's because, of course, we'd want to ensure that there is some sustainability in the system so that we're not spending overall more money than we can afford and increasing debt and so on. There is a reason why you'd want to restrict your spending at the rate of economic growth.

As I say, it's higher than the rate of inflation, 3 percent to 3.5 percent. I don't think it's fair to say that, because we indicated the budget should increase at the rate of economic growth; every department would be treated the same. * (15:10) It's all a question of priorities. The priority, I believe, of any government–and I'm not just saying this because I happen to be the Justice critic–but we also said it in the election that the priority really should be Justice. If there is an increase at the rate of economic growth which is 3 percent to 3.5 percent, that doesn't necessarily apply to Justice issues.

Justice should be one of those areas, I believe, that should be given that kind of priority. So it's not fair to say that we'd be not hiring enough police officers. In fact, in the last election, we asked–one of our planks in the election campaign was to, in fact, increase the number of crime fighters in the province by 350, so that has nothing to do with laying anyone off. In fact, there's more hiring that should probably take place. I think Manitobans deserve a very strong justice system, and all the components have to be strong. It's like a chain.

One weak lin k in that chain and the whole system kind of falls apart, and I think the minister would probably agree with that. It all starts with investigations. Of course, we have to have a strong police presence in the province, whether it's RCMP, City of Winnipeg police, or any of the other police forces across the province. We have to–and the next link in the chain, of course, is prosecutions.

Police will investigate, they'll charge, and you need a strong Prosecutions department, including sufficient Crown prosecutors, to make sure that they have sufficient resources and sufficient time so that they're not rushed into making plea bargains that ought not to be made and the like. Also, prosecutions, in my view, includes, of course, judges, and we have to make sure that there are enough judges within the province to handle the workload as well.

That's why we called for supernumerary judges, something we don't have here in Manitoba but something that ought to be considered, particularly when it comes time to some judges being on holidays, v acations, and that kind of thing, or being ill. We have, at times, cases being postponed or cancelled because judges aren’t available because of vacation and sickness. That would give a little more flexibility, I believe, into the system in terms of the prosecutions link in the chain. Of course, the final link in the chain has to be detention facilities, the number of cells.

I know that there's, as we speak, another 75 beds being constructed in Milner Ridge in Lac du Bonnet, in my constituency. [interjection] Absolutely, I should announce it. In any event, it's being constructed in

April 24, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1039 the constituency, and certainly, that's a good place to put it from my perspective. Some MLAs may see otherwise if it was put in their constituency, but from my perspective and my constituency, I supported it.

But we also have to not only increase the number of jail cells in the province, we should really be looking, in my view, at increasing the programs that are available to inmates such as–and a fair amount of the criminal activity in the province is generated because of drug issues, and I think we ought to have more intensive drug treatment centres within those facilities to be tter treat drug addiction. I believe that would, certainly, help in terms of the volume of criminal activity in the province if we try to get some of these people off of illegal drugs. With that, I'll leave it with that.

I know my time is just about up in the opening statement, and look forward to hearing the answers from the Minister of Justice (Mr. Chomiak). Madam Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the Minister's Salary is the last item considered for a department in the committee of supply. Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 4.1.(

a) contained in resolution 4.1. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I'll introduce Ron Perozzo, who'll introduce everyone down the line, so I don't get the names wrong, keeping in mind I once called a fellow who worked in my office Andrew, even though his name was–what was his name? For two years I called him the wrong name. So I'll let Ron introduce everyone. Madam Chairperson: I have to recognize you. Ron Perot? Mr. Ron Perozzo (Deputy Minister of Justice): Perozzo.

Madam Chairperson: Perozzo. Mr. Perozzo: Can I go now? Our executive director of finance is Pat Sinnott. The ADM, Courts is Jeff Schnoor next. The ADM, Prosecutions is Don Slough. The director of finance for Corrections is Aurel Tess there. The person on his BlackBerry is Greg Graceffo, the ADM, Courts– An Honourable Member: Corrections. Mr. Perozzo: Corrections. Corrections. Next to him is David Greening, our director of policy, and next to him is Ed Ritlbauer, the director of human resources, and next to him, observing the dress code is Mike Horn, who is our ADM in charge of Criminal Justice.

Madam Chairperson: Thank you. I need leave from the committee for the deputy minister to speak so I'm asking leave after the fact, but I'm hoping that everyone agrees that it's okay for the deputy minister to introduce his staff. [Agreed] Thank you. The floor is now open for questions. Oh, I'm sorry. Is it ag reed that questioning– Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this department chronologically or have a global discussion? Mr.

Hawranik: Yes, as in previous years, I would hope that we would have a general global discussion of the issues and then proceed on line-by-line basis, perhaps sometime later on Monday afternoon. I know that our particular

section of Estimates will last all day today and all day tomorrow and might continue pretty much all day on Monday. So I'd like to be able to reserve the line-by-line some time later on Monday. Madam Chairperson: Is it agreed that questioning for this department will follow in a global manner with all resolutions to be passed once the questioning has been completed? [Agreed] The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Hawranik: Yes, Madam Chairperson, I know we had Committee of Supply Estimates the end of September last year, 2007, and I asked quite a number of questions during that particular committee.

There were a number of commitments that were made by the Minister of Justice with respect to information that I required. While, certainly, there are maybe some reasons why I didn't get the answers, I just asked the minister, in fact, I reminded the minister on January 22, 2008, with a list of questions in Committee of Supply that weren't answered. That was four months later and then another month later on February 25, I sent the same letter to the minister, reminding him that I still hadn't received my answer to a tota l of 16 questions in last Committee of Supply.

I'm wondering why those questions weren't answered within a timely basis because I haven't received the answer yet.

1040 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 2008 * (15:20) Mr. Chomiak: Yes, to the extent that the department's aware, they keep track of all the questions and are advising me that they respond to all the questions. Now, can the member, perhaps, provide a list of the unanswered questions, and I'll have the department review to see, either if they've been answered in some fashion, or perhaps I had misrepresented in my answer the fact that the department was going to answer or some kind of communication breakdown.

It's not like the department not to answer the questions, and they believe that all of them were followed up on. Mr. Hawranik: Actually, not one was followed up on, never received one correspondence on any of those 16. I'll give you a sample of the kinds of questions I had posed in September, and I'll hope to get a complete list. I'll give the minister, in any event, some of the information on the record. I asked about prison populations as of a certain date year over year since 2000, I never received anything.

I asked for a copy of the Justice Department's recent analysis on increasing prison populations in Manitoba–again, I received nothing–the number of applications as well as the number of approvals made under the 2003 cross-border policing legislation; the number of victims who have been assisted under the Victim Companion program.

I also asked for a general indication of Crown attorney workloads, how th is is measured and where it is to date; how often the 2004 Highway Traffic Act amendments had been used to impound vehicles for 48 hours in the act of street racing; how many vehicles had been forfeited as a result of impaired driving since 2002; the number of out-of-province trips made by the minister, their purpose, who went with them, who paid for them and when they were taken; whether the department has paid for any trips for Executive Council dur ing the fiscal year 2006-2007; how much money was raised from court costs, justice surcharges and victim services surcharges; relating to red-light cameras on the photo radar system: where the money went and what it was used for.

I asked for details of e-mail schemes designed to fraudulently take money away and the number of Manitobans who have been victims in this way; then of the 85,000 firearms the Canadian Police Information Centre records are stolen or missing in Canada, how many were from Manitoba; when bait cars were in use, the number of bait cars used in the province including the make and models of these vehicles; the number of full-time equivalent police officer positions that existed at the time the promise was made during the election campaign to increase the number of police officer positions by 100, and how much the program to electronically monitor repeat auto offenders will cost on an annual basis.

So those are the general kinds of questions that I asked. I could get the very specific ones and provide them to the minister, and I can understand when– there may be a time when, obviously–when you can't answer the question, and I'm not sure whether my particular letters were brought directly to the attention of the minister. I can't say that for certain, but I did send the letter on January 22 directly to the minister, including a copy itemized list of what I just read out, and, again, I did the same thing on February 25.

So I would appreciate an answer, I guess, from the minister as to when we could expect that since I asked them eight months ago. Mr. Chomiak: The member doesn't have to give me a list. I have copies of the letter obviously on file, and I'll endeavour to have all of the answers to the member, if at all possible, by Monday at the latest. Mr. Hawranik: I thank the minister for that and to bring his attention to it, I would rather have gotten it before rather than bringing it up in Estimates, but, certainly, I appreciate that answer and I look forward to the reply.

Can the minister give me an indication, a list of all his political staff, including their name, position and whether they are full time or not? Mr. Chomiak: I never really quite know what to–I know that special assistant is Janis Bermel, who is full time, and I have an executive assistant in the constituency named Evelyn Livingston. That's the extent of what I could classify, I suppose, as political staff. The member would also know that Erin Crawford, of course, does most of the work for me as a government house leader. Mr.

Hawranik: With respect to the special assistant, I think it's the special assistant, the first one you've mentioned, Janis, can the minister indicate when that particular special assistant was hired? Mr. Chomiak: If memory serves me correctly, I think she's been with the government since '99. Mr. Hawranik: With respect to the executive assistant, is that executive assistant your constituency assistant or is it some–

April 24, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1041 Mr. Chomiak: That's correct, and she's been with me since the mid-90s. Mr. Hawranik: I wonder if the minister can provide me with a specific list of all staff in the minister's and deputy minister's office. He can undertake to provide me with that. Mr. Chomiak: In fact, I could provide the member right now. I've already indicated the secretary to the minister is Shirley Heppner; administrative secretary is Elizabeth Chomor; administrative secretary is presently quasi-vacant. It was held by Rene Neufeld.

In the deputy minister's office, of course, there's Deputy Minister Ron Perozzo; his executive assistant, Kim Nicholson; secretary to the deputy minister, Chantal Berard; and administrative secretary, Louise Wilkinson. That's for a total of nine staff years. Mr. Hawranik: With respect to that list of individuals that the minister has indicated, are there any there that are new hires? What I mean by that specifically, any new hires within the last year? Mr.

Chomiak: Except for the administrative secretary position that Rene Neufeld occupied and then we had a replacement who then left and Rene Neufeld re-occupied it kindly, we have a new person in there now whose name escapes me. There hasn't been any changes. Mr. Hawranik: Any of those individuals that the minister has indicated as having been fairly recently hired, are any of them from out-of-province? Mr. Chomiak: No. Mr. Hawranik: Were any of those that were hired, those new hires again–he listed three or four of them there–were those hired through competition or were they hired through appointment? Mr.

Chomiak: Of the total nine FTEs in both offices, with the exception of the two, Janis and Evelyn Livingston, they've all been long-standing civil service positions since I came to the portfolio. Mr. Hawranik: So I take it then from the minister that all of those hires were done through competition, except for those two that he indicated, special assistant and executive assistant. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, they all were through competition and those two, Janis has been with the department, as I said, since '99 and Evelyn's been with me as a constituency assistant since the mid-90s. Mr.

Hawranik: With respect to any staff within his department and during the time that he was minister, were any of those positions reclassified? Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I don't believe so. Mr. Hawranik: I wonder if the minister can give me an indication as to–and I think he alluded to it earlier, but I don't know if I got it all–if he could indicate to me a listing of any vacant positions within his department. * (15:30) Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, two things. The member is looking for any vacancies within the department. Overall department? Mr. Hawranik: Within your office. Mr.

Chomiak: There are no vacancies within my office. Mr. Hawranik: What's the vacancy level within the department as a whole at this point? Mr. Chomiak: As of March, the vacancy level is 8.7. I should just return to the matter of reclassification. Erin Crawford was reclassified to a higher level within the last twelve months. Mr. Hawranik: And I just might add that she deserves it, too. Mr. Chomiak: I know. I agree wholeheartedly. Mr. Hawranik: I have to agree that you got a bargain there. But in any event she does very well at her job. The minister indicated that he has a 8.7 percent current vacancy rate.

What's the overall objective for the entire year? What's the target for vacancies in the department? Mr. Chomiak: The normal turnover rate is, and the target is around 6 percent. Of course, because of some of those important things that occur in Corrections and other areas. Of course, hiring in terms of need is usually not a problem within Justice which is one of the reasons why the staff here has grown fairly dramatically over the past few years. Mr. Hawranik: Obviously, Department of Justice does contract out some of its work.

I would think that it would do some contract work and I wonder if the minister could provide me, and he may not be able to give me all the information today, but if he could undertake to provide me with how many contracts, what type of contracts are being awarded by the Department of Justice, and under what

1042 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 2008 circumstances. He may be able to even answer some of it, under what circumstances there are or would exist before he would award a private contract to do some of the work in the Department of Justice. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, we're in a dilemma here because we're all lawyers, and when the member says contracts, everyone just sort of, you know, we're all now looking for definition of contract. I'm not trying to be facetious. We contract a myriad of services to outside agencies, organizations, et cetera, that shown up in the public accounts.

Is the member looking for something specific like untendered contracts or something? I'm just trying to narrow down the field because it could be a very lengthy list. Mr. Hawranik: The same question would apply, but perhaps to narrow down that list, maybe use as an example any contracts that are worth more than $25,000, certainly, would narrow down the list substantially. I wonder if he could provide me with some of that information. As I say, it may not be today but if I could get that information at some point in the future that would be appreciated. Mr.

Chomiak: It is a fairly lengthy list because of the institutions we run and the various contracts with relation to food services and those kinds of matters. So will the member accept a, sort of, reasonable list of contracts that we can provide with assurance that most of the also-run, or usual category of contracts are included in Public Accounts? Mr. Hawranik: Yes, I would accept that. For further clarification, I'm wondering whether the minister can indicate whether all contracts by the Department of Justice go to tender or if not, what criteria are used to determine whether they should go to tender or not? Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, the vast majority of contracts go to tender. Those that are not tendered are all reported. Mr. Hawranik: Can the minister indicate in 2007-2008 fiscal year how many positions within the department have been relocated? As an example, relocated from rural and northern Manitoba into Winnipeg, or from Winnipeg into rural and northern Manitoba. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, in practice there would generally be–because of the nature of the department, there wouldn't be any positions moved from rural and northern into Winnipeg.

There may be occasion when services from Winnipeg are offered to rural and northern because of shortages but, in general, there aren't any examples, for example, of Crown prosecutors moving from–if anything, there hasn't been any movement. There's a requirement for more services in northern Manitoba, in particular, and in rural Manitoba there haven't been any closures that I'm aware of, or any movement of any facilities, be it court facilities or related facilities, prison facilities, police facilities. There's been no change that I'm aware of. Mr.

Hawranik: Can the minister indicate whether any travel taken by the Pr emier (Mr. Doer) or any delegation led by the Premier was paid for by the Justice Department during the past year? Mr. Chomiak: The only trip that was paid for was the delegation to Ottawa that occurred after June, occurred in September which included and was accounted for and we could provide the member. I think we've already provided that to government through the normal reporting procedure, but it was that one.

That was the only occasion that any of us can recall of any trips that were other than ordinary travel done by departmental officials. Mr. Hawranik: The minister may not be able to answer that today, but, with respect to that particular trip, can he provide me with the total cost of that trip for the department and a breakdown of the cost as well for that trip? Mr. Chomiak: Yes. We've submitted that to various agencies in government. Yes, we won't have a problem providing that to the member, either tomorrow or Monday. Mr.

Hawranik: Now, other than that delegation, that all-party delegation that the minister spoke of last fall, can the minister provide me with details as to how many out-of-province trips he took in the past year, past fiscal year I'm talking about, and details of those trips such as the purpose, the dates, who went, who paid and what were the costs, overall? Mr. Chomiak: Yes. * (15:40) Mr. Hawranik: I thank the minister for that answer. We'll move on with a little bit of a discussion, which is, I guess, currently, pertinent in terms of what was in the Free Press today with Legal Aid.

In fact, I can tell the minister that I had quite a few questions about Legal Aid until he announced his 40 percent increase.

April 24, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1043 An Honourable Member: You had a pecuniary interest. Mr. Hawranik: No, I don't. I don't have a pecuniary interest. I must say to the minister the last time I had a Legal Aid certificate was probably about 1984. It gives you a pretty good idea. There is a reason for that. I have to tell the minister I prefer to do it for free than go through Legal Aid, to be honest with him. The last Legal Aid certificate I took was involving a family matter. It was a very bitter custody dispute.

I spent probably two weeks preparing for it, called 30 witnesses, and the other side called another 34. I spent a whole week in trial, and I got $800 for it for almost a month's worth of work. That was the reason why I thought, well, if I'm going to take those kinds of cases, I, certainly, would do it on–and the bureaucratic nightmare that was out there at the time, I can tell you, was a bit of a problem, too. It was basically all the paperwork that had to be filed and so on that created a problem. Certainly, we would agree that Legal Aid increase has been long overdue.

I see now that the minister has increased the Legal Aid rate to $80 an hour. I know it hadn't been adjusted for the past three years before that and before that increase, was years as well. I'm wondering whether the minister would give some consideration to perhaps adjusting that rate every year, if at least for the rate of inflation, to prevent discontent that could be brewing out there because the rate hadn't been increased for five, 10, 15 years at times. So, whether that might be an appropriate strategy to follow to ensure that–of course, I'm advocating on behalf of lawyers, I happen to be one.

But, as I say, I'm not in a conflict- of-interest position. I haven't accepted a certificate for a long time. But I think that might be an appropriate kind of response, and it might head off some of the discontent that perhaps he would have received in the last three years which led him to increase it by 40 percent. Mr. Chomiak: I take the member's suggestion with a good deal of consideration, We have committed to tariff reviews every second year. We increased the tariff in 2000, 2003, 2005, after 11 years with no tariff increases. I actually commend the member for his pro bono work.

The complexities in filling out the forms and certificates, it is difficult for a lot of lawyers, and I don't think they get enough credit for the kind of work, as the member pointed out, that they do. So, yes, we have committed to tariff reviews every second year, and I commend the member for the work that he does do, as a lot of people do in the legal community for which they receive–there's a place reserved somewhere fo r them for rewards, but it's not, certainly, financial. Mr. Hawranik: I'm going to have to agree with the minister there in terms of lawyers don't get the recognition they deserve.

Usually, we're the end of a bad joke about lawyers, and I think I've heard them all. I think everyone who's still a lawyer hears them quite often. The reality is lawyers, by and large, are a very generous bunch, and they don't always do work simply for what's in their best interests. So I commend most, if not all, the lawyers in the province for doing that as well. Another interesting comment, I guess, in the

article today was, and I was quite aware of it as well, is that to qualify for legal aid, a person's annual income can't exceed $14,000. While I don't do legal aid, an associate of mine does do a fair amount of family law legal aid, takes a fair amount of family law Legal Aid certificates, and that's kind of the complaint that she receives quite often. Of course, it's a cost to the province, if you increase the threshold at which you qualify for legal aid. I don't believe that that threshol d has increased to a great extent over the last 10, 12 years.

I'd like to hear the minister's comment with respect to that particular threshold, whether there's some consideration being given to increase that threshold substantially or to adjust it in accordance with inflation? Mr. Chomiak: The member is correct. Madam Chair, there hasn't been significant adjustment, although the rate the member quoted is for single individual. Notwithstanding that, there's no question that the eligibility criteria exclude a fair amount of people. We do have a special adjustment that provides some assistance to individuals who are otherwise excluded because of their income.

So we do provide some assistance in that regard. The fundamental issue at this point is the question of who's responsible for the legal aid coverage. I should tell the member that it was one of the top priorities at the mi nisters' meetings, and there is a concern across the country that a program that started out at 50-50 is now down to roughly 80-20. I'm not making this as a criticism because the last couple years the relative rate has gone up slightly, but it is a–I call it an orphaned program of the '70s,

1044 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 2008 like a number of other programs that were started on a 50-50 cost basis with the federal government that have almost exclusively come within provincial funding jurisdiction. Now, the argument could be made, well, transfers–there are different arguments, actually, that are made whether or not in fact the CHST transfer includes a provision for civil legal aid or family legal aid or not.

That's actually a debatable point, and it's been suggested by some provincial ministers that we go to battle with Ottawa on that issue and I don't see it of any particular–I don't particularly support it at this point because I think the die has been cast.

We continually look for more inputs on legal aid and more assistance because if you look at the fundamentals of legal aid, and you argue that while the Province is responsible for the administration of justice, a considerable involvement of the federal government in funding of Queen's Bench and other related prosecutors is provided and we provide support on the other side. A stronger case can be made for more federal spending. Having said that, we do the best we can. We're pleased we're able to increase the tariff this year. We're pleased that we can review the tariffs every couple years.

Legal aid is a fundamental aspect of any justice system. We'd all like to provide more, particularly in the family and civil side, but we're doing the best that we can under the circumstances. Mr. Hawranik: The minister brings up a good point, and I'd like to have it elaborated on, and that is the sharing of the cost of legal aid system between the Province and the federal government. Can the minister provide me with the amount of money that comes specifically from the federal government to support the legal aid system? Mr.

Chomiak: I believe it's $4.7 million that's provided from the federal government and we put in $22-point-something million. [interjection] We put in $18-point, we put in around $17.5. [interjection] * (15:50) Mr. Hawranik: That $4.7 million, is that the amount that actually flows from the federal government directly for legal aid? Do es more money flow than that for legal aid or is that just the amount of money from the federal government that's put into the legal aid system? Mr. Chomiak: Essentially, the $4.7 million is the core funding provided by the federal government.

There are several demonstration or related projects that the federal government participates in, but the percentage level is about 20 percent of federal government funding. We make the argument every meeting that it should be 50-50 again and we get the same response, but I don't know if that's going to change. Mr. Hawranik: I may be incorrect in this, but perhaps the minister can clarify.

I was under the understanding, and maybe I'm wrong, that interest on lawyers' trust accoun ts that are sitting in banks and credit unions would attract no interest, of course, for the benefit of any lawyer or any client in their general trust account. That, in fact, goes to the legal aid system. Would the minister clarify that? Mr. Chomiak: Yes, a good portion of that goes to Legal Aid. It's normally around a million dollars, which I put in the total as I was doing the calculations in my head. This year, it's a little bit over $3 million. Mr.

Hawranik: So the $3 million that comes then from interest in lawyers' trust accounts, is that part of the $17.5 million that you indicated th e Province puts into Legal Aid? Is that part of it, or is that additional to the $17.5 million? Mr. Chomiak: No. It's a part of the total, but it's reported on year from year so I wouldn't say it's necessarily–[interjection] Just for clarification purposes, of the $22.7 million that goes to Legal Aid, $4.7 is provided by the federal government this year. Three million will be provided by the Law Foundation. The rest will be provided, essentially, by the Province.

Generally, that formula's been fairly constant except for the additional. Normally, the Law Foundation only provides funding in the range of a million, a million two or that variation. This year, it's up, and the federal government funding is actually down from a couple of years ago. So the percentages are generally the same except for the slight increase, not slight, the significant increase this year of the Law Foundation funding. Mr. Hawranik: So I take it then that the Province, out of general revenue, is funding $15 million or are there any other participants in that $15 million? Mr.

Chomiak: Yes, that would be net. The two factors that have to be kept into consideration are the fact that the Law Foundation funding is not guaranteed in the sense of total revenue every year. It's ebb and flow, and the federal government

April 24, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1045 funding isn't guaranteed except for a two-year agreement we just signed on an interim basis while we work on a long-term funding agreement with the federal government. So neither of those sources of funding is guaranteed. The only guaranteed money on the line is the Province's. Mr. Hawranik: Except that, I just wanted the minister to confirm that the $22.7 million is guaranteed to flow to Legal Aid. It will depend on interest rates, of course, within banks on trust accounts, and the Province gives $15 million.

Does that mean then, if lawyers' trust accounts attract $4 million, the Province withdraws $1 million out of its contribution? Does it go down to $14 million or is the Province going to give $15 million in which case, if there's more than enough money, how do you account for that? If you actually take in $23.7 million, what happens to that extra $1 million? Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, that actually doesn't happen. We're projecting the Estimate for expenditure in '07-08 is $22.7 million. The Province puts in $20.5 million which includes the funding this year.

The Legal Aid founda tion includes it from the federal government. Then we subtract the revenue from the federal government to get $15.8 million as our net cost. We'll provide the member with a statement of the funding over the past 10 years. Mr. Hawranik: The Legal Aid rates were boosted 40 percent. Can the minister indicate what that 40 percent boost means to the budget? How much is it projected to cost government in the Legal Aid budget? Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, $1.5 million this year and estimated to be $3 million next year. Mr. Hawranik: Okay, $1.5 million this year, $3 million next year.

Can the minister explain why it would be $3 million next year? I'm not certain when the 40 percent–and it may very well be because the boost to Legal Aid rates takes effect after the start of the fiscal year, or it may very well be you anticipate more lawyers getting Legal Aid certificates. Do you have an idea as to how that flows through? Mr. Chomiak: It's a cash flow issue. The rate is effective April 1 and it's just a cash flow over the year. Overall, we anticipate the increased expenditure to be $3 million. Mr. Hawranik: Okay, I think I got that. I don't like the forms.

I see the chart here in the clipping from the Free Press this morning and it shows Manitoba at $80 per hour. The minister just indicated that it's effective April 1 of this year. It makes us somewhat competitive, less than British Columbia, less than Alberta. Of course, the cost of living there is much higher as well, so we're about equal with Saskatchewan and below Ontario. Can the minister elaborate, since those particular provinces, Ontario, Saskatchewan, Alberta and B.C. had higher rates, obviously, than Manitoba prior to this 40 percent increase?

Can the minister comment as to whether or not those particular provinces over the last year or two or in the past have also had difficulty attracting private lawyers to take Legal Aid certificates? Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, there are different criteria that apply to the legal aid systems in each of the provinces in terms of how and who receives funding for legal aid. There are conditions on some of those provinces with respect to the type of legal aid that is provided.

We think that, in general, our system is fairly comprehensive vis-á-vis other jurisdictions in terms of providing support in criminal and family law areas. * (16:00) That's one of the reasons that the now deputy minister and consultant, Ron Perozzo, provided his report to the government with respect to Legal Aid and some of the changes th at occurred with respect to in-house lawyers, conflict offices and some of the management structure of the Legal Aid program. There was an attempt to provide more resources to more people in the most expeditious fashion.

You and I know that there are not going to be any lawyers going from Winnipeg to Vancouver to rely on Legal Aid in order to get income. So it's a relative question. We think that the fact that we're in the middle of the pack is sufficient. Will it satisfy all of the people that practise or want to practise with Legal Aid certificates? No. Is it a significant step forward? Yes. We'll have to fund it for a couple of years and then we'll be faced with our tariff committee making recommendations again as to what the tariff should be. Mr.

Hawranik: Note as well in the article, that it was indicated at the end of March, there were 225 private bar lawyers who had taken on at least one legal aid case in the previous 12 months. Can the minister indicate how many of those 225 took Legal Aid certificates for family cases?

1046 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 2008 Mr. Chomiak: We'll have to provide the member with that. We don't have it in front of us today. Mr. Hawranik: Perhaps this next question might need some clarification, depending on the kind of statistics that Legal Aid keeps, but I'd also be interested in knowing how many of those 225 only took one Legal Aid certificate in the previous 12 months? How many–and I'm not sure where it goes from there–how many would have taken say between two and 10, and then more than 10 within that number of lawyers?

The reason I ask is that I have a lot of sympathy for family law lawyers. I don't do anymore of it, for quite a number of years, but in any event, a lot of sympathy for family lawyers in particular who, I believe, do a lot of not only legal work, but also counselling of clients. They spend a lot of time with family law clients, and I'm really concerned. Particularly in the eastern Manitoba area and that's, of course, where I practice, but there really is in eastern Manitoba only one lawyer in the entire eastern region that really practices in family law to any great extent and takes Legal Aid certificates.

So I'd, certainly, like to know how many of those 225 took one case versus more and so on. I wonder if the minister can get me that information if he doesn't have it handy today. Mr. Doug Martindale, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Chomiak: The member is correct. The complexity and the number of lawyers who take on family law cases has diminished. We are doing probably a lot more through staff lawyers than probably in the past. We don't have those statistics here in terms of the percentages from Legal Aid. We'll endeavour to get it from that organization. The point is well-taken.

There's been no doubt in the last 25 years of a diminished number of individuals doing family law and, in fact, criminal law, from my recollection. Mr. Hawranik: I wonder if the minister could also indicate to me how many, you know, in the budget, in terms of we've got $22.7 million to Legal Aid and we've boosted their rate and so on. What kind of projections have been produced as to how many Legal Aid certificates will be issued within the legal aid system to the private bar? The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Martindale): The Attorney General and Keeper of the Great Seal. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr.

Acting Chairperson. I am just waiting for that question. If memory serves me correctly I think it's something like 20,000 certificates we have issued last year, but I'll endeavour to get that information for the member. Mr. Hawranik: Is that the number of certificates that is contemplated to be issued to the private bar this year or has it gone up, particularly since I see the goal is to have 350 to 375 private bar lawyers take Legal Aid certificates? So I'm wondering, even though you issued 20,000 last year, what the projection is for this year or what they anticipate giving to the private bar. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, if Legal Aid has those projections, I will, certainly, endeavour to get them, although the goal might be to spread the work around to more lawyers, but it might very well be more expeditious for so me family-law lawyers or criminal lawyers to take on more certificates now that the tariff is a bit higher. It becomes a volume- related issue. If Legal Aid has those particular projections, I will endeavour to get them for the member. Mr. Hawranik: I also see in the

article that Legal Aid is hoping the situation will improve in northern communities. What was cited was Dauphin, Thompson, Swan River and The Pas, where Legal Aid has had to fly lawyers in to handle cases. Can the minister indicate whether in fact there are any lawyers who take any Legal Aid certificates from Thompson in Thompson? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, my thoughts would be probably yes, but we'll endeavour to find out. Mr. Hawranik: I thank the minister for that.

As well, rather than ask the question over for Dauphin, Swan River and The Pas, if I could have the same question answered for all of those other three communities, I would appreciate that. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, we'll try to find out for those communities. I think it's fair to say that a phenomenon has occurred that I never thought that we would actually see, and that is that we have shortages of lawyers in Manitoba, in particularly rural and northern areas, an d that we've seen across the board in terms of both Legal Aid and on the Prosecutions side.

But I will endeavour to find that information from Legal Aid that the member's asked for.

April 24, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1047 Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Acting Chair, I want to take this opportunity to share with the minister and staff some thoughts that I have based on concerns raised from my constituency. There are periodically every other year I make a point of trying to really canvass what the public is thinking about justice as a whole.

I thought maybe what I would do is share with the minister some of the questions I specifically asked and then see how he would answer the question and maybe even a personal opinion is most welcome, but at the very least a government opinion. One of the questions, and this isn't the first time I've asked this question, but one of the questions I asked this year was if you feel that our judges are doing a good job. I am wondering if the minister could give at least what he believes his constituents, how they would answer that type of a question. * (16:10) Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, I think there is a general sense in the community that criminals get off too easy and that judges should, quote, be harder on criminals. Certainly, from my constituents there is a sense, particularly because of American court room and American drama, and every time there's a case that occurs where an individual isn't incarcerated, that, quote, the criminal justice system isn't harsh enough.

A lot of that criticism goes towards the judges, I think unfairly, because they are the arbiters of a system that we've created and they follow precedent and experience in terms of making their rulings and their determinations. So when you say to the average person that, quote, kid that just stole a car can't be held in custody, the public doesn't understand it. Yet the Youth Criminal Justice Act says you can't. It effectively says you cannot hold that kid in custody on a first offence. The judge has no choice in the matter, and that's by virtue of the wording of the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

We have asked for changes to that. Now, having said that, we have more people incarcerated in our system now than probably any other time in our history. It's easy to blame the politicians who make the laws. It's easy to blame the judges who arbitrate the laws. It's easy to blame the Crown prosecutors who prosecute the case. At the end of the day, we have a system of rules and regulations in our society that follows a particular pattern, and a lot of people think that enough isn't being done to punish criminals.

So I think that generally would be what my constituents and I daresay your constituents would probably say. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I would like to maybe provide a little bit more, even, clarity to the issue. This is the second time in which I've posed this question. I'd like to think that I meet with a lot of constituents even between the elections. There is a general feeling of lack of confidence in the judicial system.

Even though the question specifically asks the question about judges, do you feel that our judges are doing a good job, I can tell you from the first go around there would have been– to give you a sense, there's about 5,600-5,700 homes that I represent in which, at least, close to 500 would directly parti

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-2-30b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 2nd hansardpdf 30b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	fffa55609adab806d9e4e1d405c235052b12f77d

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