PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of Assembly For the per,iod: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MARCH 2, 1977 :

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 664 NM- 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am pleased to welcome to the House of Assembly on behalf of all bon. members, sixty-five young men and women from ages thirteen to sixteen who are members of the Golden Hind Royal Canadian Sea Cadet Corp - t - - . No. 84, of Catalina and this Corps is celebrating its twenty-fifth ar.niversary of founding this year. They are accompanied by four officers, their Commanding Officer, Lieutenant Pardy, and three other officers, Sub-Lieutenants Ryan, Rogers and White.

I know all hon. members join me in welcoming the young men and young women and their officers to the House • . SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear: STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. House is aware that arising from the passing of

an act to make automobile insurance compulsory, -government immediately established a board to. hold hearinfs and to approve or disapprove insurance rates as submitted by the various automobile insurance companies doing business in this Province. The board, which was named The Newfoundland Automobile Insurance Board, comprised the following: Mr. F. O'Dea, LL.D., Chairman, Mr. David Baird, C.A., member, Mr. A.B. Butt as a member.

The introduction of this legislation, the appointment of the Newfoundland Insurance Board, the holding of public hearings, and inflationary pressures generally during the period in question, focused public attention not only on the cost of public liability and property damage insurance, but also on the rates being charged for comprehensive and collision insurance. 181.0

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 664 MR. HURPRY: In the one and one-half years approximately that the board has been in operation, it has become readily NM- 2 apparent that a part time or temporary organizational structure is insufficient to adequately cope with the many facets and complex problems presented through the insurance industry.

Apart from the members themselves, who have other business pursuits, and a secretary borrowed part time from my department, the present board has no existing supportive structure and this has proven to be a heavy burden on the board to effectively carry out their duties and responsibilities as per their legislative mandate. I have reluctantly accepted the recent resignation of the Chairman of the Newfoundland-Automobile Insurance Board, Mr.

Francis O'Dea, who because of the circumstances just described and because of the tremendous business pressures he is experiencing through his law practice, has found it necessary to resign his position as Chairman of the Board ·.

While Mr. 0 'Dea, together with his colleagues,have performed a tremendous piece of work during the past months,he has indicated to me in his letter of resignation the desirability,in light of experience gained,of a permanent rating structure with an appropriate supportive administrative organization to hear and deal with all matter pertaining to the establishment of automobile insurance rates.

He futher recommended that government should investigate the feasibility of placing this responsibility within the jurisidction of the Public Utilities Board,as is the case with certain other Canadian Provinces, particularly New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. 181.1.

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 664 NM- 3 MR. MURPHY: tn consultation with my colleague, the bon. Minister of Justice, Mr. O'Dea's recommendations were studied in depth and it has since been government's decision that the functions and total jurisdiction of the Newfoundland Automobile Insurance Board will be transferred to the Public Utilities Board, and appropriate legislation to intro.duce this change will be introduced into the present session of the House of Assembly in due course. In the meantime, Mr. David Baird, C.A., has agreed to act as interim chairman until these changes have been consummated.

As indicated earlier, 'the events of past months have genearted more than normal interest in insurance matters generally and I have received many submissions and letters as minister. from the general public questioning the sudden high cost of insurance, the difficulty in obtaining fire insurance renewals on older homes within the city and elsewhere, the hardships being experienced by the owners of mobile homes in meeting high premiums costs of fire and wind damage insurance, etc. 1812

March 2,1977 Tape 665 AH-1 MR.

MURPHY: Having discussed this matter with my colleagues in cabinet ',and being duly concerned by these representations from the consuming public at large, it has been decided that the whole question of insurance coverage in general, whether it be public liability and property damage, collision, comprehensive~ fire insurance on private properties, ' home owners policies, mobile homes,etc.,requires examination and clarification, in order that the consumers of this province : can be~assured that my department is monitoring the insurance industry in seeking explanations, etc.,of rate increases, availability of coverage, methods of doing business as relates to underwriting practices.

It is also my intention that the information determined during - -- these studies . be made public in an attempt, to ~l~a~ _s<?me of, the . fears that have been expressed by many interested groups that have approached me to carry this examination· ,the government has determined that it would be most appropriate to call upon individuals who have : attain~d eJ{pertise - in insurance matters in Newfoundland.

With this in mind, I would like . to inform the House that a committee has recently been appointed through my department to study and report to me on the various facets of the insurance industry that I have noted. This committee consists of~ Mr. R.E. Good, Commissioner of Public Utilities Board as Chairman; Mr. Gordon L. French, Superintendant of Insurance for the Government of Newfoundland; and Mr. Gerry Winsor, Insurance Manag~r of the Treasury Board,as members.

This committee will commence its activities forthwith, and I am sure that its deliberations and findings will result in clarification of many questions of public concern. In this connection, I would hope -that before the closing of the present session of the House of Assembly, I may be in a position to report to the House, the result of this committees work. Respectfully submitted, Sir, 1813

March 2 , 19 77 Tape 665 AH-2 -MR. NEARY: Does that come under the_operation of the · Public Enquiries ~4ct'l __ __ _ MR. MURPHY: Eventually; they are looking at the submissions. · No it is not , . as the hon. member says, it is just an internal committee. Copies will be distributed to the House. MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for Burgee~ Bay D'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the minister~~ d~11g the :!n:i,!=ial part of his remarks,was covering the subject that all of us have a great concern in.

The matter of insurance cover~ge needs to be rationalized, needs to be articulated a lot better than it is, the whole field of insurance,as he covered it pretty well · in the first part of his statement.

And we welcome the indication that government recognizes the _<!_ilemm~ __ Which many groups of people face in this province, whether · automob"iie -~s- ~ -- looking for coverage~ or home owners looking for coverage, or in particular mobile home owners looking for coverage. - - -----A lot of people in a number of categories are facing real ·-- 4 dilemmas~ not only financial ones, but real binds because of their ------ inability to get the types of insurance they so badly need. That is the problem, Mr. Speaker. L have very grave doubts that the suggested solution is going to do very much to solve the problem.

A lot could be said about more studies and more committees, and that kind of thing, but this is not the place for that. Government has agreed that a committee is necessary. I believe that this ' ' is an area where some close looking into is not at all out of order. What I object to, Mr. Speaker, is the essentially stacked deck which is respresented by the membership on this committee. And it seems to me~ Mr.

Speaker, that here is a clear opportunity -for government - if it want~ some study, I hope it would not be study that would take a number of years, or months, or something that --would be shelved after the study has been done - I hope this would be pr~l}~J~~!Y:to getting some action on the category of problems that 1.81.4 .

March 2 , 19 77 Tape 665 AH-3 MR~ SIMMO~S: has been mentioned by the lllinister. And· here·, Mr~ Speaker, is a clear opportunity· for government to·_~i~l:~: either a select committee of the House, with full powers to receive briefs,. to hear witnesses,. that kind of thing. ' .~. SPEAKER: Order, please~ I must draw to the hen. gentlemen's attention, the requirement that he limit his remarks to comments and ----··-- -- any· reques :ts. for explanationsi_1ltiE~~t-deba~e ~_%h~_ho!l~,!le~ber -iai:'~--------- ·-- --- ----·-.. --- -- - Burgee- Bay d'Espoir. -- - ------ MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr.. Speaker., 181.5

March 2, 1977 Tape no. 666 Page 1 - mw Mr. Simmons • I shall try as best I can to so limit my remarks. I want though, Mr. Speaker, if I may, within the confines of the rules here,to indicate that we on this side do not hold out much hope for the success of this venture if it is going to go the route of the kind of committee outlined.

It is somewhat - I was going to say the Pope b~ing asked to investigate the Vati~an - it is almost a conflict of interest situation you have here,where people so close to the industry at the administrative level are being asked to advise, and government would be well-advised to look at other alternatives, Mr. Speaker. The problem is recognized. The minister has stated it very well.

And I say to him in al~ kindness that I am not at all sure that he is going the correct route, and either a select committee or some other independent body, some other independent committee, independent in the sense that they are not tied into the government service, would serve the purpose that the minister wants to serve a lot better than he can hope to with the route he .has chosen to adopt. I hope he has just tried this on the House as a test . item to see what the House thinks of it. And I can say for my colleagues· we do not think very much of it.

And we say that not in any partisan fashion, but in a determined and a sincere effort to ask the minister would he do something that would alleviate the problems he has mentioned . this afternoon rather than the something that can only serve to delay . . the category of problems, and perhaps even aggravate them. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, bear! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the first annual report of the Newfoundland Automobile Insurance Board. 1.816

March 2, 1977 Tape no. 666 Page 2 - mw ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the answers to questions placed on the Order Paper, Question No. 62 by the member for Trinity- Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe); Question No. 66 by the same member; Question No. 58 on the Order Paper by the member for Trinity- Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe). MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the answer to Question No. 45 by the hon. member for Lewisporte (Mr.

White) which appeared in Orders of the Day, d~te~_Feb~ry 8, 1977. The question was in three parts: The number of municipal incorporations during 1976? The answer was, none. The location of each? It was not applicable.' A list of applications for incorporations received by the minister of the department? I have the list attached. ORAL QUESTIO~S: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: A question for the Minister of Finance.

I had intended to ask this question of the Premier, but since he is not in his seat today I will direct it to the Minister of Finance in the hope that perhaps he can shed a little information on this. What we are concerned about , Mr. Speaker, is what if any meetings have been held recently regarding the- Come_ By Chance Refinery? Were meetings held? Was the minister or any of his colleagues present with, say, Mr. Shaheen or other groups? Where does the situation stand at the moment? Is there anything new to report on the situation other than what we have been tela previously-in-this aouse? MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! Before recognizing the hon. minister I should point out to all hon.members that as we do have a system of supplementaries it would be preferable if the questions came one at a time. Otherwise, in a sense, they are like four or five at a time, and then in using ~ 181.7

March 2, 1977 Tape no. 666 Page 3 - mw Mr. Speaker. one's discretion as to how many supplementaries, the exercise of that becomes somewhat more difficult. The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: There have been a series of meetings, on-going meetings with various groups. The MOrgan Stanley , people have been actively searching for a purchaser. .• 1.8:1.8

}farch 2 ~ 1977 Tape 667 IB-1 MR. DOODY: Myself and some of the- people from Finance met with them in Ottawa when we were last there,w·hich was the last Finance ~1inisters' meeting, and they gave us a progress report at that time. Unfortunately there was nothing of consequence. We have had other meetings with other groups. We have had a report fro!Il ~ Peat Marwick on · their marketing programme. They have contacted various companies both in the United States, Canada and overseas with no success.

We have had a meeting this morning with the Clarkson people and with the representatives of the Roman Corporation and they gave us a report on ~ ---·- -- ·-- . ·-- ·-··-·- - -- -- their progress to date. It was a progress report. They are gone off to see othe~ people but there have-been no financial commitments from any of these groups. These are the ones that I am aware of. MR. NOLAN: A s~pplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary MR. NOLAN: Is the minister in a position to give us this information on the Come By Chance refinery then? It has now been laid up on in mothpalls for, how long? MR. DOODY : A year • MR.

NOLAN: One year. MR. DOODY: Just about a year. MR. NOLAN: I am just wondering if there is any time limit where she can go - can the minister give us an indication that the longer she goes the more it· is going to cost in order t.o reactivate it? And if so, ~.:rhat are we talking about in terms of dollars per month the longer it goes? MR.. SPE..o\KER: The hen. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I cannot put a dollar figure on it. I really have no idea.

I would suspect that if nothing materializes during the next few months substantially more mothballing will have to be done to preserve the structure over a longer term than has been done to date. Right now we understand from the engineers responsible that the mothballing is adequate to protect the facility in the present term. If it has to go through another Winter, it will be obviously a different situation and there will have to be additional funds and additional work 1.81.9

:Harch 2, 1977 Tape 667 IB-2 ~. DOODY: done on it and that will require more engineering pre-studies and more estimates. But I do not have the exact information. MR. WHITE: A supplementary. MR. SPEA..l{EF: A supplementary, the hon. member for Lewisporte. ~. lh1l!ITE: A supplementary to the hon. ~inister of Finance, M"r. Speaker • .- He did mention the . Steve Roman Group, th~- - ~c:_~n:i.son Mines Group ~--- --- - -- and so on. I wonder if the minister coutd tell us what the situation is currently regarding the Shaheen Group and if there have been any talks recently with the Shaheen Group? MR. SPEAKER: The bon.

Minister of Finance. ~R. DOODY: I have had no talks w·ith t·he Shaheen Group. ~~aybe other people in government have, but I have not :nor __= ·the _ P_~ople in Finance . have not been contacted-by the Shaheen group. So I honestly cannot say. MR. lollUTE: A supplementary. 1~- · SPEAKEF.: A supplementary. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary for the minister. Could I . he indicate now after the · few meetings that have been held whe-ther or not there is any additional room for optimism with respect to the opening of the Come By r.hance refinery? MR. SPEAKE"R: The hon. ~finister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: A~_}_ ~~y we have -~ the meet in~ this mornin~ was a preliminary report and it was a report of the progress of the Roman Corporation. They told us what they had done to date and how much progress they had made. I do not think, as I said, that it would be fair to say that there is any substantive offer made to get the thing activated by them. There are a number of items which they discussed and ~mich they have gone on to discuss with other people involved. So it would be unfair to say that we have anything concrete. :MR. HHITE: "Hr. Speaker, one more supplementary • . ¥R.

SPEAKER: One· additional supplementary. MR. WHITE: Could the minister indicate whether or not any additional - meetings have been planned and whether or not this Dennison 1820

March 2, 1977 Tape 667 IB-3 }ffi.. HRITE: approach has been considered a serious one in light of the Shaheen activity that is presumablv still interested in reopening the refinery? MR. SPEAKEP: The hon. Y:inister of Finance. MR. DOODY: There will be future meetings with the Roman Corporation, Sir, and we consider it serious just as we consider any offer seriously. But this we think is a particularly responsible group.

They are _a well ~~~~C!giiized -and . well ___ r~SJ?_e_c~~cl _c_an~d-f~;_:~ ~~i.P-~r~~-i_o_n ~-<~i C~~siderab le resource, --~~~- we are quite pleased at the interest that they are showing in the facility. ~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could the :r-~inister of Finance tell the House what the situation is now at the Waterford Hospital? :r--!R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: · The situation at the Waterford,as I understand it,at the last report that I had,is that it is unchanged, the strike is still in progress.

The patient care is adequate,according to the medical people in attendance. The nurses are working hard, much harder than they should be working really. The volunteers are working ~.;ell in there. And unfortunately we have been able to come to no arrangement with the strikers despite the efforts of the Department of Labour · in that direction as well as our own people. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SP'&\..KER: A supplementary. MR.. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, would the minister tell the House how many volunteers, how many members of the Newfoundland Constabulary are - - ---· 4- - - presently looking after the care of the patients at the Waterford Hospital? MR. SPEAKEP : The hon. ~inister of Finance. -. !, 1821.

March 2, 1977 Tape 668 PK - 1 Mr. Doody: My understanding of the Newfoundland Constabularly is that there are three thirteen...ruin- .shifts per day working in there. Volunteers, I think, somewhere between fifteen and twenty per shift per day in there. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Could the minister tell the House the qualifications of the volunteers? Are they nurses? Are they qualified to look after the care of the patients at -t-h~ --w~~-~~!ord? MR .. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: The volunteers that I referred to are extremely qualified for the work that they are doing, Sir~ They are doing laundry and scrubbing floors and scrubbing walls and doing the daily household chores of looking after the hospitals. MR. NEARY: Any masquerading :as ·nurses? MR. DOODY: They are not masquerading as nurses. There is no attempt for anyone to masquerade as a nurse. All the nursing people who are in there are qualified registered nurses who have been duly accredited by the Association of Registered Nurses and have been recognized as such by the Newfoundland Nurses' Union. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister tell the House if there had been any major incidents inside the Waterford involving the patients since the strike started? And if so, would . the minister indicate to the House what kind of incidents? Whether there was any injury resulting from any of these . incidents due to the patients not been properly cared for? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: To the best of my knowledge, Sir, there have been absolutely no incidents in there that have been the result of the patients not being properly cared for. 1822

March 2, 1977 Tape 668 PK- 2 MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister indicate to the House now what the possibility is of getting back to the bargaining table,or .does the minister think that is useless at the present time? Is the standoff now between the two parties is it pointless to try to get the parties back together? Did the government make a new offer. in the la8t round of negotiations? MR. SPEAKER: The hoa. Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: In the last round of negotiations,which lasted about fifteen or tw~nty minutes, we contacted the Union executive and the negotiating team. and invited them in. They came immediately, to their credit. We suggested that they look at the package that ,...... --- we had already offered them on .pension improvements, suggested to --· - - _,! them that there might be changes that were going to make in it, -~-~-- --- -- ., . __ tha~ there may b_e anomalies which we would be willing to discuss, that _ _ _ _ there might be some ·addlti~'or deletions that we would be willing to negotiate on.

We also asked them to discuss the wage question and any other problems that they might have. Their reply was that they wanted the · Constabli~. pension plan, and after that had been established they were prepared td discuss other things. Obviously you cannot bargain under these circumstances. We have not b~en able to change that position, and,as I said before.,we are willing to sit down _and bargain at any time. That is not bargaining, Sir, that is a different sort of thing completely. As I say - MR. NEARY: What is it? MR.

DOODY: - the Department of Manpower and Industrial .Development is also attempting to get the thing through. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER: I will allow one additional supplementary, then recognizing hon. members and obviously members may come back to this later if they wish. 1823

March 2, 1977 Tape 668 PK- 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to rephrase my question that I put to the minister a few moments ago about incidents occurring inside the hospital involving patients at the hospital. In the minister's answer he said ·- there were no incidents reported due to lack of care of the patients. We~=- there any incidents - _ _ MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: - ~ere there.,.any incidents reported to the minister involving injury of any of the patients or any of the workers at the hospital since the str~ke started? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, there was one incident of a patient who had been injured in there since the strike started. There have been many patients injured at the Waterford and in other hospitals on other occasions. MR. NEARY: I am talking about the Waterford since the strike started. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, as I say,the incident we have been advised by the staff, the medical people in there, that it was not due to any shortage of patient care. It was an unfortunate incident MR. NEARY: How do you know that? MR. DOODY: - . which I am not going to discuss any further at the present. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Port au Port.

MR. J. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Finance. - Some time ago after the ~inisterof Mines and Energy had -- -- -- . -- - -- -left: his portfolio, and left the government, the Minister as . ..---· - ·-· Chairman of the Board of Directors of Labrador Linerboard Limited had appointed Woods Gordon t~ consult with the mill. My question is, is Woods Gordon still on the payroll of the government? Are they MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: Woods Gordon have been associated with government on Labrador Linerboard Limited, oh for quite a long while, long before the previous Minister of Mines and Energy retired and 1.824

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 669 NM - 1 MR. DOODY: went on to a higher calling. They are not on a retainer basis, · they are on a call basis. Currently they are not working at Lab. Linerboard, If we need them for a particular project or if we need their advice we will call on them again, But they are not on a retainer but they are called in from time to time as the occasion demands. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the President of Treasury Board.

I refer to the project under the auspicies of the Department of Social Services, the project that is going forward at Hampden under the auspicies of the Department of Social Services. ~· question though is for the-President of Treasury Board; Is the policy persued there by the Minister of Social Services, namely that married people get preference, is that a stated government policy, · that this should be the case, that married people should be employed on government projects over single persons? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. I MR.

DOODY: I guess this must be the day for the Department .. - of Finance and Treasury Board. I am really not going-to get Treasury Board involved in this one at all. We have enough responsibilities of our own without taking on those of Social Services~· I simply ask the hon. gentleman to direct his question to the department ot which it relates. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary by the original questioner-:-,_-. . MR.

SIMMONS: Well my first question was to enquire if it . were government policy,so I cannot get that answer, I will go to the Minister of Social Services; _!s~it the policy of his department, the policy of the Department of Social Services that married people be given the preference over single people 1.825

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 669 NM- 2 MR. SIMMONS: on government financed projects1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: In this particular instance, Mr. Speaker, yes this is most definitely our policy. Of course it is. I think I have been accused _of violating the Human ~ights. Code but ~ MR. NEARY-: You have. MR. BRETT: - if my giving positions ?r. t~ese particular projects to married men with children, over and above single men, if that is a violation of the Human. Rights Code then I intend to carry on. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, no excuse is an excuse to break the law and the minister knows that. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Consumer -·-- ·-Affairs and Environment, whom I understand would ~-~_!_lti~t~r:- ~ ~-- ___ . __ ,~the Human Rights Code, is that a correct assumption? MR. MURPHY: You ~are wrong. MR. SIMMONS: Okay, well try the Minister of Justice, Mr. Speaker. A question for the Minister of Justice.

Inview of the admitted -breach of the law by the Minister of Social Services, does the minister plan to take any action against him for violating the Human Rights Code? MR. HICKMAN: How does one answer a question, Mr. Speaker, that is totally out of order, and absolutely out of order. I have not heard the hon. the gentleman, the Minister of Socia-l Service~ . say that he has broken any law.

I did hear very, distinctly the Minister of Social Services say that providing job opportunity in an area ·of high unemployment he would first give it,to ~~Tied men on the basis of the greatest · need,and the greatest good for the greatest number. That is a far, far cry from any breach of the law, Mr. Speaker, arid in my opinion a very humane approach to a very 1826

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 669 NM- 3 MR. HICKMAN: difficult situation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR." SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, nobody can argue with the - MR. PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: I am giving a

preamble, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER:_. A point of order. I have to hear a point of order. MR.. PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member on each time he has asked supplementaries, the previous one and the one that he is now asking, he is not preambling his questions but he is giving argumentative comments on a response from this side --of - the House and I suggest, Mr. Speaker, on that basis he is out of order. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: On the point of order. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, the minister anticipated~and once again wrongly, what ._I_ was-ab~~r ~-o say •: Apart from that, Mr. Spe~er·, if I were doing what he has :.......ac~~~_ed me of doing I would only then be avail:4l_g _ myself of the opportunity which -the minister has of getting into a debate, which the minister certainly has done in answering my previous question. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR.. SPEAKER: On the point of order, Standing Order 31 (c). I will read,and its meaning ~~s f~~~~¥ se ~f -evident, I believe.

"I~ P!!tfi ng -;!lY oral questions, no argument or opinion is to be offered nor any facts stated except so far as may be necessary to explain the same." Now I understand that to mean that absolutely no argument or opinion is to be offered,and that then the facts which may be ·stated are those which are necessary to explain the question. So obviously there should be no argument and no opinion and what would be stated as fact would be only insofar as necessary to make the question intelligible. The bon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. 1827

March 2, 1977 Tape no. 670 Page 1 - mw Mr. Simmons • Mr. Speaker, as I was about to say before the Minister of Mines and Energy interrupted me - MR. PECKFORD: Point of order, ,Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order! I will hear the point of order. MR.. PECKFORD: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. You have just cited Standing_ orde~_l._l (

c) which says , II In putting any oral questions, no argument or opinion is to be offered nor any facts ' . stated except so far as may be necessary to explain the same." I contend, Mr. Speaker, that the comments just made by the hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir CMr. Simmons) in getting up to ask a suppl~entary question to one of the members of the ministry is irrelevant, and does come under the aegis of that Standing Order 31 (c), and that he was completely out of order in those comments. MR. WHITE: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, . yes : MR. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, before the last point of order was raised the member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) said two or three words and then 'was cut off by a point of order. When he rose again after that point of order he said one or two words, and all he said. ·was, _. ''What I was about to say." And he has not said anything yet so how do we know he is out of order? MR.. SPEAKER:· MR. BRETT: MR. SIMMONS: rMa .. ~- SPEAKER: ~ On that point of order. (Inaudible) • That is you,"Charlie." That is you~'Charlie." Order, please! I think it is quite clear what the Standing Order 3l(

c) says and what it means, that there is to be no argument, and no opinion,and any facts given only those that are necessary to make the question intelligible. I think that is clear, and that is what covered the first point of order. Now this second point of order~ As I recall when the hon. member got up he said something to the effect of, "w~i~the question I am going to ask now -and -was about to ask before I was interrupted was,· And then he would have proceeded with his question. r 1828

March 2, 1977 Tape no. 670 Page 2 - mw Mr. Speaker. I certainly would not rule that out of order. I do not know if one can be surgical in the examination and weighing of every word and phrase. ·rf there is abusive language, if it is unparliamentary, if it is an imputation of motive,then obviously when that is immediately obvious then there should be interjection.

But with respect to the way the first few words ·one savs in getting to one's question~ · as I say if we were to apply that kind of a clinical approach, then there would be interjections from the Chair practically every two or three -minutes, whether to the right or to the left, and it could well be that the process of asking for and getting information in questions would be frustrated~and indeed in debate the freedom of speech, which members are expected to have, and the exercise of which is one of the reasons they are .here; would also be frustrated.

So I would not zero in myself, in my own opinion, on those four or five words and rule them out of order. No. The hon. member. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, as I was about to say before I was -interrupted by the Minister of Mines and Energy,and in preambling my question, J the supplementary I want to ask, Mr. Speaker, subtracts nothing from the truth of what the Minister of Justice had t~ say about the desirability .of offering work to people who need it.

My supplementary, Mr .• Speaker, is this: It is clear that the Human Rights' Code provides that there be no discrimination on the basis of marital status. MR. PECKFORD: Point of order, Mr. Speake». MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! : !>- - point-o~ -o~d~ ~ _ ha_!£ · · ~ofti.e up. MR. PECKFORD: The hon. member is -i!lto a speech. He is -into his third sentence. There is no indication that the hon. member is about to ask a question, and he has successfully, Your Honour, raised the same sentence in tliis - suppleme~~ary as he did in the previous one - 1829

March 2, 1977 ~ Tape no. 670 Page 3 - mw MR. SIMMONS: Which you were shot down on alreadyl MR. PECKFORD: -about other interruptions, and I suggest that right now the hon. member is out of order, because he has' not led up as to yet to any question which he is supposed to ask in this period in the House. MR. SIMMONS: ·--Tothatpoinfof- order, -Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member. MR. SIMMONS: It is obvious that the minister is achieving his objective of destroying the. Qu~stion . Period : SOME ·RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, our Terms of Reference include the. precedents in Ottawa, and if one would check the Hansard in ·Ottawa you will find that very often.- Mr. Speaker - MR. LUNDRIGAN: You would fine one like that in Ottawa once in sixty years. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! -Mr. Speaker, you will find very often, as I noted within the last hour in looking at a Hansard from Ottawa,that as many as a dozen or fifteen sentences are used in 'preambling. I have, Mr. Speaker, used a total of two and a part of a third sentence so far, and I have been interrupted.

Now the minister has twice interrupted me, and twice has been ruled down. He shoUld learn while he is behind before he gets completely behind. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. · SPEAKER: Order, please! First of all in speaking to points of order all hon. members are requi~ed to keep their remarks brief and relevant to the point. With respect to the point of order, I would consider the hon. member's stating or alleging that the law had been broken is ··· 1830

March 2, 1977 Tape 671 IB-1 ~. SPEA.."R".EF : entering into debate. That is not fact or it is not certainly a fact necessary for the understanding of the question. Because in the argument to the point of order this matter was brought up I would . ' comment on it, and. that was with respect to the precedents ' in the House - -- A of Connnons. As the hon. member knows,according to Standing Order 1,the priority of authorities for the House are the Standing Orders·,- number two, the :~recedent~ of this Hou~_e,and number three, where none o'f these cover . the precedents of the House of Commons.

Our precedents on the Question Period are somewhat different than the House of Commons. He have usually reauired . briefer answers and briefer auestions. The hen. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. }-!_F_ . Sim-l()NS: Thank you, !-"r. Speaker. A question, the supplementary for the Minister of Justice in case he does not remember, is this. The Human Rights Code provides that there be no discrimination on the basis of marital status.

In view of this, does the minister plan to .. intercede in the activity - of the Depa_rtment of Social Services to either order the department to observe the code;or alternately,does he propose a change in the Human Rights Code to allow the activity which is now going on under the Social Services project _ to be a legal activity? MR. SPEAKEP: The hon. ~inister of Justice. MP. HICKYAN: Mr. Speaker, the hen. gentleman should know that any -- laws that are relating to the Human Rights Code can only be changed by this legislature. The question of

interpretation is totally a different matter. I have not hea'rd in this House today any evidence or seen any evidence which would indicate to me that there has been a breach of any law as it relates to human dignity or human rights, but rather the criteria has been based on need rather than on sex, colour or creed. MR. SIMMONS: l.fr. Speaker, I would like to give notice that I am dissatisfied with the answer and Hish to raise it on the adjournment of the House tomorrow. 1831.

'M"arch 2, 1977 Tape 671 IB-2 ¥!L SPEAF'EP..: I recognize the han. member for ~Hndsor-Buchans. }~_. FLIGH~: Thank you, ¥r. Speaker. ~-~y question is to the J'finister of Mines and Energy and it is relative to one of the major recommendations in the Buchans Task Force. If I could I will read the recommendation. It is very short, ~'r. Speaker. 11 The Task Force recommenc!s that the company be requested to report to the }finister of Yines and Energy by January 31 of each yea.r its updated, esti!"ated reserves as to the end of the prior year,and its updated production

schedule _for the remainder of the life of the mine.'' Would the minister advise the House as to whether or not he has received that report effective January 31 from the company? ~T. PECKFOPD: Hould the member repeat the question? ~-· FLIGRT: You have not been listening. ~~. PECKFOPD: No, I am sorry, no. I cannot hear you. ¥1'. FLIGHT: All right, ~~r. Speaker, I W'ill rephrase the question. The question is -,;vith relation to one of the major,or what I consider to be one of the major, reco!!'II1.endations of the Buchans Task Force. I will read the recommendation.

"The Task Force recommends that the company be requested fa report to the IKinister of ¥ines and Energy by January 31 of each year its updated estimated reserves as of the end of the prior year_and its updated production

schedule for the remainder of the life of the mine •11 Now the question, ~fr. Speaker, is this. Has the minister received that report from the company effective January, 1977 and if so, would the minister indicate to the Rouse what the results of that report were? l"F .• PECK'Fnnn: I take that under notice, Mr. Speaker. ~'R. SPEA.REP..: The han. member for Concept ion Bay South. :>..ffi.. NOLAN: I vrould J ike to address a auestion, ~ -<r.

Speaker, to the han. ~'inister of Finance and President of the Treasury Board relative to one that I attempted to put to him yesterday regarding the Lottery Act. ~.Jhat I "~ATas attel!'pting to convey at that time v7as of the dollar collectec1 from ticket sales, r.;hat percentage of j_t is used for administration costs, etc. and Hhat percenta .ge really goes to the 1.832

¥arch 2, 1977 Tape 671 IB-3 provinces concerned who are supposed to benefit therefrom? The hon. ~~inister of Finance. !''R .• DOODY: :t'r. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for giving me the opportunity to correct some of the irtfor111.ation that I gave him yesterday. As I recall I had a big ''VTithout Prejudice" written across the top of it because it was off the top of my head. One . of the questions that was asked me was, · nTo date has the Province received any mon~y~" and I said that it had not. That is not true. The Province has received_ 1833

March 2,19 77 Tape 672 AH-1 MR.DOODY: some $676,000 from the proceeds from the Atlantic Lotto sales - ~ ~d~~~ · The tickets are going very well; they seem to have leveled out at about a little over two million tickets per drawing, which is every two weeks. On the part of the question, which the hon. member jus.t asked me, the prizes account for about 40 per cent, which is what I said yesterday, the selling and administrative expenses _work out at about 20 per cent, and the net profits for distribution into the provinces work out to the other 40 per cent of the total.

And of course the distribution of that 40 per cent of the profits is distributed in relation to the number of tickets that are sold in each province, so that varies from drawing to drawing. I think Newfoundland has been averaging about 28 per cent of the effort to date, but it varies. MR~ SPEAKER: Hon. member from LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Bellevue. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Social Services, in relation to this policy that the ministert has adopted in connection with the hir ~?~ out in Hampden, on the Social Services project in Hampden~ Is the minister aware that a similar situation developed recently at Mundy Pond in connection with a small bridge project in there !nvolving five single men,who merwith the minister's deputy minister, following which they were reinstated at a higher rate of pay . So there are five single men employed on the Mundy Pond project, is the minister aware of that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.

BRETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am very much aware of it. When this programme was conceived, first when we started out, we intended to pay the minimun wage, which was $2.50, and then we realized that this would be utter discriMination, because the other three departments of government that are carrying out like projects are paying the wages agreed to under the MOS agreement .• Realizing that tbis would be discrimination, then we increased our pay from the l 1834

March 2,1977 Tape 672 AH-2 MR. BRETT: minimun wage of $2.50 to $3.89. Apparently, these specific instructions that went out to the directors that we would not hire single men, were not adhered to , or else they did not reach the ears of these particular people, and thus four or five single men were hired on. Subsequently they were asked to leave the job :_ They came in to see the Deputy Minister, and they also saw me, and I felt that in view of the fact that the mistake was ours and not theirs, we would keep them on the pay roll, and that is exactly what we did. MR. NEARY: A suppleme:ntary question, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: One supplementary. Then the Question _ Period will be over. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the minister already has a _ p_r~c:_ecient_ and in view of the fact that the minister and his department are in violation of

Section 14 of the Newfoundland Human Rights Code, would the minister now consider making this a part of the overall departmental policy of hiring, of not discriminating against singie people, and hi~e single people on this Hampden project. Why the disc~imination in the case of Hampden? MR. SPEAKER: The han. ministe~. MR. BRETT: ¥x. Speake~, I am not discriminating against single people,and the~e is no one single pe~son in Newfoundland that has .. . any mo~e sympathy for all of th~ ~:f,~di&etlt _ p~ople of thi~ province . than I do, and that includes single people.

But this programme is being placed where it will do the greatest need, and ~here it is going to do the greatest need is with the family man, the man who has a wife and five or six children. This is where it has to go. :MIC .NEARY: You are breaking the law. MR. BRETT: No, Mr. Speaker, I beg to differ, we are not breaking the law, there are sufficient married men in that area to complete that job, and I see no reason to take on single people • . ~ 1835

March 2,1977 Tape 672 AH-3 MR. NEARY: There is no reason in the Mundy Pond area , .There are sufficient married men in the Mundy Pond area. MR. SPEAKER: It being Wednesday, we go to MOtion 1. I am sorry, the hon._ : Minister of Fisheries. MR. CARTER: I rise on a question of personal privilege, Mr. Speaker, concerning an

article that appeared in the editorial of The Evening Telegram , and I realiz~~hat maybe I should have raised this before, but it did· not come to my attention until after Ouestion reriod had started, and I think this

article , Mr. Speaker, could have very serious ramifications, certainly with respect to my future relationship with my federal counterpart in Ottawa. The article, Mr. Speaker, suggests that at my most recent fisheries meeting, held in Port au Choix last Saturday, that I was extre.me~y ~ critical of certain federal rules and regulations dealing ~vith ~_ -licenc;J:_ng and it says that''Mr. Carter gave t~e impression that he was deliberately steering a collision course with the federal department, with the intention of putting the federal service in a bad light with Newfoundland fisherman! 1 Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is anything but true. I willingly admit -that I did make some reference,during my speech at that meeting, to certain federal regulations. ---·· . -· ----- -- - --- . --- 1836

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 673 NM- 1 MR. W. CARTER: I did suggest that maybe some of the licencing regulations,in light of the complaints that I have received during my fourteen fishery meetings, I suggested that _ maybe some of the licencing regulations should be overhauled, changed. I suggested that maybe in some areas they were - . - - rather restrictive and did not give full-time fishermen a proper fighting chance to make a living in the fishery. - -· --· · - .. Now, Mr. Speaker ·, if · that is going __ t?~ · b_e ~nterpreted _ .. _ a~~~~~~b~~~E~~J.~Steering a collision course with Ottawa.then - . -- - ~-.

I am afraid there is not too much I can do about it. But certainly that kind of suggestion,. in light of the importance, one that I certainly recognize, of my office having a good working·relationship with my federal counterpart, that the provincial government, the need for us to have 'a good liaison with the Federal Minister of Fisheries, where at the present time there are some delicate negotiations underway, and I am sure as time goes on even more delicate negotiations, will be carried out. But certainly, Mr.

Speaker, I want to set the record straight, that I have a good, at least as far as I am concerned, a good relationship with the minister. He is a man for whom I have a lot of respect. I had the honour of serving in the House of Commons with him for three or four years and having acted as his critic in the House during my last two years in' that place,and·r think the minister will have to agree that at no time was I unduly critical of him or unfair. I want the record, I Mr. Speaker, to show that that is not true.

I am not deliberately embarking on: a collision course with the Minister of Fisheries because to suggest that sort of thing, Mr. Speaker, will,I am sure, have very serious ramifications with respect to my future negotiations with that minister in that particular department. 1837

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 673 ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.. SPEAKER: It b~ing Private Member's Day, the adjourned debate on ~tion 1. The hon. member for Harbour Grace. SOME HON. Mm~ERS : Hear! . hear! . MR. YOUNG: _First, Mr. Speaker, I should say that I am not really qualified to speak on the problems and the needs of Labr~dor,but probably I would like to express my opinions on a select committee.

Unfortunately I have only visited two of the major cities in Labrador, namely Churchill Falls and Goose Bay, And to compare those cities,or Labrador per se,with our outports, the standard of living there is much better than we have it ourselves • . · Over the years, Sir, I have heard the fishermen who went to the Labrador Coast to fish speak of the hardships _ a~~~inhuman;I should say, conditions and the way of life they had in those days and there is a possibility the ~ame exists there today.

I think, Sir, the minister of· Transportation and Communications hit the nail on the head in the situation of Labrador when he said probably most of this is caused by the lack of confidence in the politicians and the governments per se. Probably, Sir, this has been -~~ll_t_ ·up over the years by the neglect and broken promises of the politicians. . -Mr. ~peaker, w~~ust be sincere I think to the people of Labrador and the Northern Coast and not take them for granted but treat them as human beings and realize their NM- 2 needs.

I feel, Sir, that the PC government under the leadership of our Premier is concerned about the needs of the people of Labrador and have brought government to that part of the Coast. You must realize, Sir, the crucial need for the concerted government policies to tackle the serious problems arising from the economic, domestic and transportatinn needs of the residents of the Labrador Coast. 1.838

March 2, 1977 Tape 674 PK - 1 Mr. H. Young: This government, Sir, plans to bring the government to that area, and much credit is due to the member from Naskaupi ,(Mr. Goudie) and the member from Menihek (Mr. Rousseau) in their efforts of bringing the concern of ' those people to the attention of the government, - SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. YOUNG: -whom I feel sure, Sir, has a willing ear at all times • .. -· - ---. .--- I said I was going to be brief. This resolution is a motherhood resolution. In some senses it is hard to make up one's mind if it is good to vote . for it or vote against it.

You know, ''Be it further resolved~' this resolution says 1"that a select committee be appointed to consider and study all the matters pertaining to the · state and sentiment of the public opinion in Labrador, to consider the reports and recommendations that hav~ been submitted to . government in recent years~ and to receive briefs and other representations from Municipal Councils, Native Associations and from individuals, agencies and groups representing the people of Labrador." Sir, probab ]:y ~ead_Qf doing that ~auld dust off _ some of the reports, there are I am sure thousands of them in the files ---in this ·buil~ing ·, and we have spent vast sums of money on reports, ------ and this would eliminate the need for a select committee.

It also states in this resolution, Sir, probabl~we could run into more problems or expenses when one realizes that - it says -- - - - - - - -- - - -- -- - - here - "That it be directed to sit in sufficient places in Labrador as to enable any of the residents in Labrador to appear before it if they so wish without incurring expense or inconvenience." Now, Sir, someone is going · to have to bear a tremendous expense if the government is going to foot the bill. Well, Sir, as I said before,as a member of that Select Committee I realize we went around on the Select Committee on Inshore Fishery.

Sir, as we went around, and the both sides were suppose tobe a- _non-partisan committee, the first thing we were told, Sir, that 1.839

March 2, 1977 Tape 674 PK- 2 Mr. Young: there was an election soon. And then probably as we go along we were told that 'we are j~st here to get votes or a good times for tqe MHAs, or that it was a waste of money, and more broken promises. As I said before, Sir, I have not fully made up my mind yet as to how to vote on this thing. Probably some consideration should be given to dusting off some of the reports in the files in this · building, and probably everyone will benefit in the long run. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member from Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say a few words as well on the resolutio~ put forWard by my friend and colleague from Ea2 le River (Mr. Strachan). I would first like to say that the comments - ~ . . - . 1 that I just heard a few minutes ago in the House which I must !'!R.v wprp non-partisan, I saw no reason whatsoever why this resolution could not be voted for by all members of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

HODDER: The fact that some one might say that a Select Committee of the House are going to have good times,or for a member to say that to dust off the old reports that have been done in the thousands over the years, that, Mr. Speaker, is not acceptab~e. Mr. Speaker, this resolution was placed on the Order Paper . in an non-partisan manner. The member from Eagle River did not put that there in any way, shape or form to embarrass the government.

It is placed there _because the Liberal Party and the ' member from Eagle River, and I believe the other two members for Labrador in the House, feel that there is a problem in Labrador. The motion itself,which concerns itself with the state of the public opinion in Labradorc/ ~~ the serious impl ~cations that rise therefr~_ ,cannot be but supported by the people of the House. Speaker after speaker who have stood up here in the House on this particular .debate have expressed concern. There have been some partisan comments from the other side of the House - ~ 1840

March 2, 1977 Tape 674 PK - 3 Mr. Young: '!hey are not partisan. MR. IJODDER: - but I believe that myself and my colleagues are more concerned that we have this question looked at~ SOME RON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR. HODDER: - than any partisan comments • SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! - - MR. NOLAN: Good·~! ____ _ 1841.

March 2, 1977 Tape no. 675 Page 1 - MS MR. J. HODDER: A select committee which would consider reports and -recommendations that have already been submitted -I know the Snowden Commission, which was quite a large report, which considerable time was spent on - MR. NEARY: A quite expensive report. MR. J. HODDER: - and a quite expe~sive report I think -. there are many good things in that report 1 _I think this report should be looked at.

The fact that the report would come to the House of Assembly for its findings and bring its recommendations with respect to Labrad~r to this HdUse, and by the very_ fact that mem_bers of this House would have a chance to look at Labrador, and look at the problems first-hand, because many of the I preface my remarks with the same that we do not have a great deal of knowledge about Labrador. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.. HODDER: And any move, Mr. Spe&ker, to go to Labrador and look at the problems and speak to the people, and listen to their briefs, that cannot go amiss, that cannot hurt.

I ].:hs-J:ened to one speaker from the other side of the House say that the people of Labrador have been studied to death. Well,we are not asking to go to study the size of their noses or anything else. All we are asking for is- informed - an understanding and also asking that the members of this House, in a responsible manner, go to Labrador and see just what the people are feeling. Now, as I said earlier, this resolution was brought in in a non-partisan manner. I see no reason whatsoever, Mr.

Speaker .- I know that it is general, that if an Opposition member bring~ forth a resolution in this House that the government by nature decide that they will step on it, or they, -wtll not vote for it. ! . ----- 1842

March 2, 1977 Tape no. 675 Page 2 - mw MR. HODDER,_;__ But I see no reason, Mr. Speaker, why for the first time perhaps this House can come to some unanimous decision, because we are not asking for very much. We are just asking that we look at Labrador, and look at the problems in Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, my first visit to Labrador ,./ · was in 1966.

At that particular time I arrived in Goose Bay, and ~ ~ ~ev'=-ha~in·g~e-=~-- in Goose- ~~¥_Eefor~, -~' - - ~~d a friend . of mine ~ who was a former member of this House: decided we would just get a taxi and drive and have a look at Happy Valley - Goose Bay. We were there for three hours. The taxi driver was the firs~ native Labradorian I bad ever met.

I had no experience with Labrador ' whatsoever, and at that particular time, and throughout that ride, although we were paying a fair amount of money for our taxi ride, we were filled with invective against Newfoundlanders from the time we sat in the taxi ·until the time we left. And that was my first exposure .to this. I was quite upset. It was a new feeling for me. It was something I had never seen before. I know that_tbts thing had been around before 1966.

But from that moment on , I have always looked at the question of alienation~- _ w~ __ w_i~l _s~y_ , of Labrador from the Island of Newfoundland itself, and have watched pr~ceedings. .• Now on the last day that we spoke I listened to . t~e- Minister of Transportation and Communications in his speech, and he said words to this effect; I found in my travels last Summer that the people I talked to were skeptical,first of all, of my visit there.

What I was doing there as a Minister of the Crown - there was - ~ - - ~eeling_~sJ~.epticism in some cases to even discuss the problems because they felt that I was not in a sincere way. And then he went on to say tbat .we have to regain the confidence of the people. On that same day last Wednesday the member for Lewisporte (Mr. White) said much the same thing. He said, "I have to tell you - and he was referring to a 1843

March 3, 1977 Tape no. 675 Page 3- mw Mr. Hodder. visit he had paid to the coast of Labrador the Winter before - be said, ''I have to tell you that wherever 1 went there was an anti-me feeling, because I was from the Island, I was down there, why are you here." Now these were comments that came from both sides of the BOuse-. And I believe that anybody who has travelled to Labrador - I hav~ been in Labrador twice this year _~ and I talked to many people throughout Labrador this year,. and I have found the very same thing. You do not have to go around and nose around for it. It c0111es to you. 1844

}'arch 2, 1977 Tape 676 IB-1 !"R. HODDEP : ¥r. Speaker, there are reasons for this. I do not put the reasons on the gov~rnment, the present government, the past government or anything else,although I am aware that we all could have done perhaps a little more for the Labrador part of the Province. I might say that if you look at Labrador from a historical perspective, you first had your very ~-arly settlers ~.>!lo 't•1ent to Labrador, most of thet!l ~!ere trappers. These Here the Newfoundland ·Labradorians of today. You had trading posts.

You had people 'liTho were completely isolated from Newfoundland,and I doubt in scree ways whether they knew they belonged to the Province in the early days of _I:.abrad9!=. These names, some of those names you can still find in North l{est Piver and in other areas along the Coast of Labrador. Some of the names trace themselves back to _ pe~ple -~o came over from Scotland late in the nineteenth· century and 1i7hose descendants still live there. We also had the Inuit people ~.mo were in Labrador ~1ho only recently came into the twentieth century.

The first exposure, I suppose, that the Inuit had with the white people were the ~oravians tvho came over,and the history books tell us they did a great job. But at th~ same time the ~oravians were of a foreign influence. They certainly were not-Newfoundland. At the present time we have the Oblate p~iests in North \.J'est P.iver and I believe in Davis Inlet. I am not saying anything about the Oblate ·priests~-and tiia( the£ -d.o not do _a good job and that they are needed there, but they do have their headquarters in Quebec, not that there is anything wrong with them or not that they are doing MR.

ROUS-SEAU: They- have a co:.cathed ral down in Labrador Citv_and they serve the whole of Labrador. '1-"R. RIJDDE:R.: Right. They serve the r,vhole of Labrador. But their headquarters is in ~uebec. The only reason I mention it is that it is another influence -v1hich is not the Island. Now, ]-"r. Speaker, for years ~1e had the Newfoundland - I suppose it was called the Newfoundland Floater Fishery, the fishermen t-1ent to Labrador - ~here l:V"ere landsmen in Labrador at that time-and this fishery went there and fished off the shores of Labrador. And I am 1845

!-'farch 2, 1977 Tape 676 IB-2 ~. HODDEP: told, !'!r. Speaker, that many of those people vmo lived in Labrador at that time, there ~.ras resentment to people coming up 1·rho took their fish and then went back to the Province to process it or only stayed there for a very short time. I think the Labrador bouncaries dispute - I believe it ~·ras 1927, I could be corrected on that- up until that time the people of Labrador - and that is not very long ago, }~r. Speaker, 192 7 - up until that time I do not know if the people of Labrador really knew 'tvhether they belonged to Newfoundland or not.

There is no doubt about it where they belong now and about the legal decision,but up until that particular time they were, I suppose, neither fish nor fmvl. Then in the 1940's the first strike of modernization came to Labrador with the.building of the C~ose Bay _Air Force Base. That brought an American influence into Labrador, an American influence which is only just left at the present time. Now whether the American influence was good, bad -I am sure we have liked the dollars that they brought to us - :Sut again the American influence vras there. It uas not a Newfoundland influence.

He then have the building of Twin Falls, the building of 1•Tabush anc L~bra~or City, v1here people from the Island vren t up, and Labrador was looked on then as a place where you 1,rent to get ~.,ork, you went up there to find ~-mrk. Then 'tve had the building of Churchill Falls. Now I was involved in the building of Churchill Falls in the very early years and I know that at one point - and I could be corrected - on my figures .=-but. at one point in Churchill Falls there were soTie 7,000 men there. No't>7 I was there t~·rO years, about four months or five months each year.

At that particular time a person - and you cannot blame Ne~·Tfoundlanders for it - they 'tvent up there to build Labrador. They vrere a~·ray from their homes and families and they 't.;ere there for perhaps three or four or five months, some of them lasted two or three months and so'l!'.etimes when you were there - I Has there for five months at one stretch,and I was an old hand there because so many people used to 1846

}!'..arch 2, 1977 Tape 676 IB-3 1-!R.. ImnDE'F: come in and go aWq.y. Now when you say 7, 000 Newfoundlanders ~1ere there at one time,perhaps four or five times that number of the people of Newfoundland actually ':·Tent in t .o build Churchill Falls and left again. The same thing, I tvould imagine, although I had no experience with it, happened in \<l'abush and Labrador City. Now to me this gives a camp attitude that Newfoundlands may have. Now I_ am not saying it.

But the fact that so many Newfoun~landers went to Labrador, tvent into a company camp, went into a company town, wo·rked in that part~cular area and then left and came back to the Island, and what did they know of Labrador? They thought o.f Labrador as a place where there were 1847

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 677 NM- 1 MR. HODDER: mineral reserves, there were some electrtcity ~ ----- ------------------- and things and there were some great projects going on,but I doubt if the Newfoundlanders who visited Labrador ever had a close attachment to that area of Newfoundland. Now as well, Mr. Speaker, there -is a feeling of discontent throughout the whole of Labrauor. Now Labrador, when you look at the distances of Labrador,it is geographically separate.

You have Wabush, Labrador City and then across another vast distance, or fairly vast distance, an hour's flying time,you have Churchill Falls, then you have Goose Bay and then you have the isolated communities all up along the Coast of Labrador. Yet it is strange that it is not, and I believe somebody said that in this House, that it was only along the Coast of Labrador there was any feeling of alienation.

But I think you will find that right throughout the whole of Labrador, even though it is so geographically separate, even though that the things are quite different throughout the whole of Labrador, -- yet this feeling of alienation is throughout the whole of the land mass of Labrador. The people there feel isolated. There is a feeling of isolation and you cannot blame them for that. That perhaps Is- ' some of the reasons why Labradorians are alienated, not all of it but there is a feeling of isolation. You cannot get in your car and ~ou cannot drive over to Grand Falls as you can from Stephenville ,or into St.

John's, or you are not too close to the centre of government. Yo~ basically only have the particular community in which you live in. There are some 40,000 people,! am told,in Labrador. And some of the largest, some of the greatest of mineral resources and everything else come from Labrador. And that is not a lot of communities, there are a lot of small communities, they do not represent that much. But I think that perhaps it has now 1848

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 677 MR. HODDER: come to the point where we have to g'ive special consideration to Labrador. I know members on the other side of the House have said that we will not give special consideration to Labrador, we will not give special consideration in hunting rights,and why should we let somebody go out and kill seven carib~u, etc. But we must remember, Mr.

Speaker, that this was their way of life and there are special considerations for -- . - Labrador because they are the storehouse of Newfoundland, and as long as the minerals and as~long as the hydro powerand . . ~veryth::i.ng else_~re .. __ flowing out of there,and they do not have roads and they do not have electricity, as long as there are communities witout electricity then you are going to find that the people of Labrador are going to be alienated. ·. Another thing is,I know,that there are other provinces that have two land masses. But this province is a little more unique.

The Province of British Columbia has Victoria Island which is a hop, skip and a jump. You can live in Victoria and work over in Vancouver. I know that the Province of Nova Scotia is split, from Nova Scotia ~ Cape Breton,but you can drive from Cape Breton,no problem through the Isthmus, there is no problem whatsoever. However, we in this Province ·must recognize NM- 2 that we do have two major land masses. We have two time zones. I believe we used to have three when the American Base was there and perhaps we still do have three. But we have two time zones.

We have two major bodies of land with the majority of the people on one, with the government on one,and this in itself leads to a .feeling of isolation and a feeling of ---------- the oeoole bl!ing withdrawn. I have liad friends of mine who were in the North saying, "I am getting the Northern syndrome. I am getting the 1849

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 677 NM- 3 MR. HODDER: feeling that I am isolated all of a sudden;• and that feeling comes from there. Now, Mr. Speaker, speaking of the political aspects of what is happening in Labrador. The historical thing I think has a bearing on what has happened today, But not so very long ago the New Labrador Party arose in Labrador. For a little while they had a Messiah. He did not turn out to be quite the Messiah that he could have been,but he could have been another type of person.

But they did have a New Labrador Party and that particular party I am told in the elections that it ran, that they were very, very nati.onalistic ,- ----- ....- -- and they in their local rallies said, "took, 'this is ours, . - --- ' separation from_ Newfoundland.w They preached anti-Newfoundland propoganda in their ~eetings. Now that was a movement .. ..,----·· ~-- -- --- -·-· --·- ------ -· ··- -·- 1.850

March 2, 1978, Tape 678, Page 1 -- apb MR. HODDER: in Labrador which is still~there. Now we find that we have a .vocal Opposition inLabrado~. I think ! read the first edition of the Aurora ever published. I was involved in a newspaper which started at the same time as the Aurora and we always traded back and forth newspapers~ that is the newspaper of Wabush - Labrador City. I have read that paper for the past four or five years:wJ.th great interest and there is an opposition. We cannot ~ay it is only a minority.

Maybe they-were~ot so vocal before but there are same highly intelligent people in Labrador at the present time who are kicking the Island, who are showing a sense of frustration with the government of the ~sland. MR. NOLAN: The publisher and author of the Aurora was a member of this House. MR. HODDER: That is right, Yes, that is right, a member of the House. As my friend and colleague from Lewisporte (Mr. White) said the other day I am not so happy from what I have seen of the coverage from the Island that we get up there.

I saw the other day, I think it was on the National News, where a little community just across the border in the United States were complaining because they were being bombarded by Canadian propaganda or Canadian newscasts. All they got was CBC and the Canadian news media and they wanted to get the American networks in there. I think they even got a contribution from a community in Canada to help them in this because they were being allied with Canada more than.with the United States, yet · their roots were there.

I sometimes wonder if our distribution of newspapers, our radio and our T.V. from the Island is adequate in the Labrador part of the Province. Because otherwise I feel that if they have to watch p~ogrammes from other parts of Canada and they are not getting the day to day feedback, if they cannot see what we are trying to do here and have no sympathy with issues here, of course vice versa, we have no sympathy with their issues, then we have a problem. 1.851.

March 2, 1977, Tape 678, Page 2 -- apb MR. HODDER: Now, Mr. Speaker, here in the House the other day I listened to the hon. the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) stand up and deliver a petition for the community of Fox Harbour which did not have a road. Now here we have in La~~a~?~ . a group o~ towns along the coast that do not have one town that does have a road . Not ~ !?ad, not one • . Theyare asking for their f!-rst rQad. We have the people of Labrador with ~11 that electricity coming out of ·Churchill Falls and they do not have proper electrification.

J know there are attempts being made now and I know that the government have taken steps in the past couple 9_f. __ years to look into this. I. know that there are airstrips being put there but basically we must, if Labrador is going to be satisfied~ we -must provide them with the amenities of life such as they are on the Island. For many, many years this Island was - I believe that the first person from Labrador ever to be a representative :. wa~ _ ~t . the_ :riat~()'!1:.9.J.

C:::_o~yent_!_on _when _()ne_p_erson from Labrador - ---- ----- - - -. was allowed to _be _a representatiye. __ I _ ~ not sure ~f that but I believe that was the first time. When we went through Commission of Government they had not representatives here. It is only recently that they have had any experience with government as far as Newfoundland is concerned. In many· of those _years,and in the early years of Confederation, the pressures on the government were on the Island because the majority of people were on the Island.

There were mostly .at that particular time a few isolated places along the coast of Labrador. But now we have a different situation, Mr. Speaker, we have a situation where we have large industrial cities in Labrador. We have people in Labrador who are there because they like to be there. They do not want to leave Labrador. I had a fellow say to me the other day who was from Labrador Cit~ he said, "I do not know if it was M.anpower or somebody from the Rouse came up~ somebody told him, they said - yes, I think it was Canada Manpower - "We will try to generate jobs and put a

• March 2, 1977, Tape 678, Page 3 - apb MR. HODDER: technical vocational school here so that your sons can move elsewhere. And they said, ''Why should our sons move .elsewhere? Because here we are in Labrador, we like Labrador. Some of us may not be called Labradorians but at the same time we want to stay here. We do not want to train our sons to leave Labrador, we want to see Labrador develop so that they, our people can come back to us." --------- ----~ --· -- . ----=--- 185 3

~arch 2, 1977 Tape 679 IB-1 1'-T-_. HODDER : Now, }fr. Speaker, there is ano~~-r ~spect of Labrador which many of us forget and there is not much known about, and I would be the first to admit I do not know much about the Inuit culture. But I have talked to people from Labrador and ~at I find is fascinating. I found something else on my last trip to Labrador. They had a little P':lb_li~a_;.!'?_n - ~ut called, "Them Days". That publication goes back to the trapping era.

The whole thing, l f you read through them - and I have read through most of them now - they have a certain folklore, they have a certain history, they have heros, they have people~.The John Michelin who I met in Churchill Falls,- he was up the_re in a canoe- who was going in to find a silver mine which he had found in 1926 and he was going back to find it again or try to find it because he l.;ras afraid that when the Churchill Falls development started that the waters ~·!Ould cover it and it was important that they find that. And I sat and I talked to him for days and days.

And the people of Labrador have a background '. They have a different set of values and they look back to a different history than we look back to. They look back to a history of trapping, of fishing on the coast, of a certain amount of isolation, but they tlo have their own culture. Now, Mr. Speaker, in closing I would like to say that we must change our attitudes about Labrador. Labradorians must be fi.rst -citizens- of Newfoundland.

The people there "t-Yant to live there and they do not want to see their resources exploited. '!'hat is a major ·- - - . · - - - ~ - . issue and I think that if we are withdrawing money from Labrador, if we are taking dollars from Labrador, if there are dollars coming into the provincial revenue then we cannot have it that there are communities on the coast and that there are communities in Labrador that are not receiving as much as communities on the Island. And we know that the squeaky wheel gets the grease and it is only in the last fe"t-r years that Labrador bas started to squeak at all.

I feel more than that that there must be something more than just a !Kinistry of Labrador Affairs. There must be more than just a presence 1854

~farch 2, 1977 Tape 679 IB-2 ~. HODDER: in Labrador. This government has to shm:~ leac'l.ership in LabraC.or. rve have to be present in Labrador. It is not enough for a minister to go down occasionally and to see Labrador and make an impression there and go back again. Novr I am not speaking about the hon. member for Menihek (~~r. Rousseau) or anybody else, but I am thinking about and I am-not only talking about the government sjde of the House. I think there must be some leadership in Labrador, more than just adding Newfoundlano and Labrador to our stationer)' I might say, more than a few isolated visits.

I believe that there are pent-up frustrations in Labrador. Someone mentioned CQarlie Devine who was a former ¥HA in the House. Last year when the Chamber of Commerce in Labrador City or Wabush put a resolution regarding separatism, a news reporter fn~erviewe d !·~r. ·Devine and his comments were, "~.Je feel that the government has done nothing and we asked them for leadership in Labrador." Now I think that } s __ :Very key, "We asked them for leadership in Labrador . " He said that after the Labrador Chamber of Commerce decided to debate the resolution and he said that this was the reason that they were doing it.

Now last 1''arch the Newfoundland Federation of Municipalit:fes presented a brief to this government and they asked for special circumstances for Labrador. The brief noted that the Labrador Coast lacked everything, water and sewage, poor delivery of food supplies, problems with delivery of oil, lack of electrification and roads. Now I have no comment to make on that except to -say that from my experience in Labrador that these things do exist and I believe, as a Newfoundland member, I have seen how an area can be ignored.

It was only about ten years ago that somebody realized that there were French on the Port au Port Peninsula. I live on the Port au Port Peninsula, and I venture to say that many ~embers in this Hou~e of Assembly at the present time do not know mucli about the Port au Port Peninsula, about their culture, about the~r feeling. There are people here who have asked me, there are people in this House of Assembly, who have asked 1.855

!-~arch 2 , 19 77 Tape 679 IB-3 ~. HODDER: me, '.'Are there people on the Port au Port Peninsula who can spe~k French or are there people who speak French only?" And I can answer yes7 there are periple who can speak French only. But people do not know it. A ·sense ' of not knowing because it did not come to you, because you reacted to things that were coming to you. Now I th~k that at this particular time in Labrador that we have to stop looking for pressures to come to us, we must go up and look and see what there is ~ Labrador. I think that if this government votes against this particUlar resolution, I gb not know how they will ever hold their heads up again. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 1856

March 2, 1977 Tape 680 PK - 1 MR. SPUKER (MR. H. YOUNG) : The hon. the Premier. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all it is very difficult to get up and in any length of time deal adequately with the question of the problems that exist ·in Labrador, particularly Labrador, in this debate. It is a problem that concerns all of us. A lot of the specific problems have been isglated and discussed as this debate has taken place over the past few weeks. But the ingredients that create the problem in Labrador, I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, are very great indeed.

Because you are not-t alking ~bo~t. just one area of a province, you are talking about three or four areas within their own geographic mass. I do not think there is any question whatsoever that the Labrador City-Wabash-Churchill area is a very distinct area of any part of any province. Equally the Happy Valley-Goose Bay area is .- dist_inctl_y_~_ ·different from the other areas on the eoast and in the West. An4 equally on the Coast I would suggest there is a great deal •, of difference be_tween the problems in Davis Inlet and some of the problems in Forteau and L'Anse-au-Clair and that area.

I would like to briefly talk about the Western region and the Central region, if you like, the Goose Bay-Happy Valley region, but particularly to confine most of my remarks for obvious rea~ons to Coastal Labrador where the greatest frustration, I am not saying the only frustration, but the greatest frustration is. In the Labrador City-Wab~h-Churchill area we are looking really at a most unusual situation in that there is tremendous frustration ther~' _and. that is· at the same time as we are looking at an area which has the highest per capita income~as I understand it,of virtually any town in Canada.

I foget what the actual figure is, I think, it is like an average income of $19,000 to $15,000 a year. It is very, very high. I think Sept Isles was shown higher in the survey that was done by Ottawa, that was because of a population basis, and, I think, in fact, Labrador City is higher. 1857

March 2, 1977 Tape 680 PK - 2 Eremier Moores: We are looking at a region in Labrador that is very highly industrialized. We are looking at a region where there are tremendous benefits,such as mor~gages and company houses at 4 per cent, electrical bills .that are less than any other consumer in the Province is paying~ You are looking at a subsidized electricity bill by the company, mind you, that in fact is approximately one-tenth of what that.same bill would be if you lived in St. John's or Corner Brook or some other part of the Province. .

And at the same time on the Coast you are looking at an electric bill that is astronom~cal if you have electronic equipment. So on one side of the coin in ---- ------- - - -·----- -Labrador·we have very cheap electricity,. on. the other side and in the- i solated area the most eXp~nsive. ~ ·-·---­ Now I do not think the -only ~p robiem- in-f.abra .dor- Wes-t - -- ~ '' is government presence' ' alone~ The goveriimenthave done a great deal and I think there are a great deal more we can do~ I think leadership, as the bon. member mentioned, that Charlie Devine said, is in fact a part of the role we can play.

We can play a role in ~a~~~-tiinarhousinp: for those people who are not company people. We can play a role in recreation. But all of that, Mr. Speaker, is only part 'of the real problem in Labrador West. Because,I~.· can be corrected by this by my bon. colleague from Menihek (Mr. Roussea~), b'ut I would suggest that the main problem in Labrador West is c'?~unication with home~ ~o _ to speak, and isolation.

I think isolation has to be,without questi~~' the difficulty in any place where you have th~ long,dark and cold Winters, where you have the climate which is invigorating to the people wh~i.~ and when you talk to them in Labrador City or Wabush or Churchill they are proud of living in a climate they live in, they enjoy it, they enjoy being Labradorians. And the fact is that what they really want is a hook-up with the Coast by a road, which --- - - , would mean a--road to Esker, and eventually that road to be extended to -.. - -- - the Trans-Canada Highway.

And I think it is really the road being there so they know they can drive on it,as opposed to the number of times they would actually use it. I think there would be a lot of people who would come ' r - 1.858

March 2, 1977 Tape 680 PK- 3 ~erMoores: in fD)m outS:I.de ·into Labtat!or-., 1· wo1114 sugge...st that the people who live there Will no't'mal-J.y fly out because after all it is: and it would be a very long drive. <..--- , _ _ _ --·- f 1859 ,.

March 2 ,1977 Tape 681 AH-1 PREMIER MOORES:. But. the fact is that there are frustrations there for that reason. The other thing that~hen 1 was looktpg at the gentleman from Eagle River, who introduced the motion, he mentioned as to who is a Labradorian~ , ~~ he said you got to be there thirty or forty years before you are identified as a Labradorian on the coast. I think my friend from Naskaupi _ :would certainly qualify as a Labradorian. But I would hate, Mr •.

Speaker, to go to Labrador City and suggest that someone who has been there for five or ten years is not a Labradorian.! -~- ~ca~_se. __ that is something that would not be allowed, because they in their own way, and in a very different ~vironment and differ~nt circumstances, very ----definitively consider themselves · ' Labradorian. But taking the Western part of Labrador, really , our major problem is isolation and,if you like,presence.-Wh en we- t ake ~.,.. the Goose Bay -Happy Valley area, we have a most unusual c,omplexity of problems.

We have a situation where they are certainl~ - materially much worse of that the Western part of Labrador and also certainly much better of that the Coastal region of Labrador. I -----would. suggest .-- part of the problem in the Happy Valley-Goose Bay - --- .. _ ... area _ primarily is lack of security, it is the isolation as well, but they have been used to that for a long while. But the lack of security in the Happy Valley-Goose Bay area can be traced in a very ::.. simple way really. It grew and developed primarily because of the American presen~e.

The American base came in there, and most people around this province, who have lived in it over the years when the American bases were open, realize just what a boom situation that creates _-:- _much higher wages · than ever before, I would suggest not the most onerous jobs in the world, working conditions pretty lax, pretty favourable.and on it went. From this almost Utopian euvironment by sociological standards, I suppose, of what the world should be today, from this experience of working 1.860

March 2, 19 77 Tape 681 AH-2 PREMIER MOORES : with the Americans in an isolated area- MR.. SMALLWOOD": And the Canadians • PREMIER MOORES: -and the Canadians, to a lesser degree the British .... but_as __ it; _dropped _ _gff trom_ that and that base closed up, Labrador Linerboard came along .• N_o! it is very difficult to take people who worked on an American Airforce Base, and then ask them to go in the woods ,_e.!:_ther as timberja~~ or loading timber or whatever the case may be, and I think everyone can understand that.

That is not something that is decrying the people at all, it is just a very different work style. __ -- ~~t - the Labrador Linerboard operations started up, wages were fairly good, productivity may not have been the greatest, but the fact was it was still a secure industry that they could depend on for their area to survive and to be built up on. With the difficulties and the closing of the Labrador Linerboard Mill operation up there we have Mr. VanBeke, who is paying much less wages, asking for a great deal more productj.!~ty, I, understand.

But what it is,I mean if you are looking at an income work point - -----· of view as we have looked at it- well let us put it this way, you have gone downhill very rapidly as far as income is concerned I and gone uphill very rapidly as far as working particularly hard for less wages is concerned. But I think that is the problem because what we got here now is to ask ourselves and the peopl~ in that area nave got to ask themselves is there any future here?

They have seen the Americans in there, they have seen Linerboard there, they have seen VanBeke there and now that· is a very tenuous situation in their own minds, is there any future in Happy Valley - Goose Bay? It is very difficult for people who have witnessed this and lived through it to realize that in that particular area there is in fact a great deal of future. It is not go·ing to be there tomorrow morning, but, Mr. Speaker, I do 1861.

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 681 :2REMIER MOORES: not think you have to be a genius to figure out that if mineral operations for instance like the Kitts- Michelin oneration and the many other minerals that will be . . in time found in,-Labrador, if they are in the Coastal area at all the fact is that :. Happ~ Valley - Goose Bay has to be a major central port of operation for any development in that area. I think also it has to be said without question that Gull Island will be developed. Now when Gull Island will be developed is something for discussion, but we are not talking twenty-five years.

We are not talking next month. But we are talking about it being developed because - - -it must be in the Canadian interest and not just:pur _!nterest in the not too distant future. The fact is that when that is developed, Happy Valley - Gosse Bay area will be one· of those very rare places in this world that has reasonably priced energy, and the ·- ~ ----- benefits f r om t~t will have by definition to be substantial. -· -- - ~ - - .

It will be in fact a shipping port from the North because as we know C-Co~e _ and Nord~o and these other agencies who are very actively at work are in fact stu~y~n~ _ how to ge~ over the ice problem which is the_. main problem that a lot of this has not beeQ developed already. _;: _. - ~·-·- - - -- We see one of the most competent ~irfields, ----- -~ I suppose,of anywhere in Canada at Goose Bay and with that . ------·-- sort of facility installed ------ --- - - - --------- tl 1.862

March 2, 1977 Tape no. 682 Page 1 - mw Premier Moores. ~: course, in ttme,with any development at all it is going to be used, particularly if there is offshore oil and gas. If there is offshore oil and gas, it is only natural. And I think it :!-~ .. -aimo_s't ~ndat~cy that the development of the offshore oil and gas will have, if not their main headquarters, certainly a very substantial operation in Ha.p_py Valley - Goose_j5~y. _ __ __ .. I · So whilst the future in that area has to be considered bright, there is a great problem in the interim. I would suggest, as the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) said the other day, one of the major problems, not just there _ but everywhere, is attitudes as to what government is going to do, and how they can get away from some of the problems they talked about such as separatism and so on which I will deal with in a moment. In North West River we have a very different problem, I suggest, than anywhere except for the Northern part of the coast. ··- -r- aiif ta!Idng· , about the native population side of North West River --- - -- ---' now.

We talk about all kinds of t_!l!!igs- 1~~e hunting rights, employment:~ and they do not go together --~we_-· · · are talking about a problem where people are trying to live in both worlds, the white man's world on one side an~ the Indian world and their customs and all that has gone before them on the other. I would suggest it is very difficult to take Indians or white men and intertwine their cultures SQ that you come up with a meaningful programme that they are both happy with.

So maybe we should be talking about just those problems and the traditions that in fact the native people want themselves, and that we can afford to support them in. I have heard a lot of comments in the Rouse,as an example, on the h~grights for natives in North West River, that they have to get a licence to hunt caribou. I think the hon. member for h 1863

March 2, 1977 Tape no. 682 Page 2 - mw Premier Moores. Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) will be as surprised as I will be when I found out that they have to get a licence, but the licence says that you are allowed one animal per member of family up to eight. In other words, a wife and husband with six kids can shoot eight animals. Well now some of us, Mr. Speaker, in this House have found the regulations somewhat more restrictive than that.

But the fact is, Sir, that there is a ~se h.ere where, you know, what ~ ~!'e~ _tf1~ ~u!lt~ng~r_~)~~ts? __ _ Now t~e Mealey Mountains and the Red Wine Mountains are the area where these people hunt. The fact is __ that, _ I_~hink, in the Red Wine Mountains the herd is 500. In the Mealey Mountains - I am not sure of the figure - it is about 300.animals. With that kil~ ratio,wit~ 800 animals available,! do not t~ink anyone has to be too much of a genius to figure out that they are not going to last very long.

J.iJe _N or.th~~-=-h;rd .. and·)~ going in and shooting those, of course: they can~ but I think it is wrong for the natives in their own best interest to ask for unlimited access to the Red Wine Mountain herd and the Mealey Mountain herd. MR.. SMALLWOOD : Would the hon. gentleman . allow me for a moment~ ·BREMIER MOORES: Of course. MR.. SMALLWOOD : In the Northern herd there is said to be · something between 100,000- 'PREMIER MOORES: Two hundred thousand. MR.. SMALLWOOD : - and 200,000 animals.

Is there any practical way of getting a substantial number of them brought South to the Mealey Mountains and that general area!, jtist as we took moose, I think it was, from Newfoundland put them up in the Mealey Mountain area .- we did that a few years ago,- could ' it not be done the other way? PREMIER MOORES : I think, Mr. Speaker, it probably could. I do not know what the economics are of running down a great number of caribou.

: March 2, 1977 Tape no. 682 Page 3 - mw Premier Moores. As a fellow said, you know, I think it was the bon. Minister of Finance one time said, ''Why do we not open the moose season so that eve~one can go· and shoot: as many as they want?" One fellow said, '~ell, all you need is to leave a be and a she at the end of it."' And Doody said, ''Yes, if you bad a guarantee that they could find each ·at.her." And I think that that is one of the problems we are getting with the scarcety of the population_ in what is £r_e~ly~ quite.large area, the Red Wine herd and the Mealey Mountain herd.

But the hon. member's suggestion of bringing animals down there~~ the ~ther alternative, I suppose, is to bring the native people up he~e to shoot their limit of animals,and bring them back. There are different variations on the theme that could suffice certainly the native population in their needs for caribou, and I think it is something that should be· looked into. MR. MURPHY; When you are talking about the Northern herd, how far North would that be? BRiMIER MOORES: They cross the Labrador - Quebec Border and I would suggest from North West River it would probably be - what? - 600 miles, Joe, 500 or 600? MR.

GOUDIE: ~ They roam as far South as·~kkovik. PREMIER MOORES: Yes. The han. member just mentioned that they 'do roam down as far. South as Makkovik, and that is the Southern most -------point, I think, which. would be a lot shorter, but ---- ..... =-~- .:.:..._ __ 1865

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 683 NM -.1 PREMIER MOORES : __ -the __ main herd is Nain,and North and West. Mr. Speaker, once again I do not want to spend too much time on that particular area,because really what I wanted today was to speak on one isolated area in the main . -· ~ and that:is_the Coast of Labrador and r_havenot even gotten to that yet. r_~h_in~some people should have some idea before I talk about that of just really what has gone in there in the way of dollars and cents. Because I agree with the bon •. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) when he says that attitude is the main.~prC?!>l~~- I think attitude ------------------- --is the main problem _._ ! do_ not thii!:_k_ tjla 't_dollars and cents itself can ever _cure anything. Attitude,! suggest,is the main problem,. *ot just the people of Labrador and their attitude toward government or the people on the Island part of the Province or even their attitude towards_the_~ople · _· -~-- in Happy Valley - Goose Bay, or the attitude of Labradorians towards Island people.

I suggest also~ Si~, the attitude is as much our problem as it is theirs,and our attitude of Labrador; ~eep _ _4_()'tim_ar!! we __ really concerned about what they want? Or are our ideas supposed to be their ideas whether they like it or not? It is a very real problem here and one that I would like to talk about in a few moments. Before I do, to give people .some idea of two things~first of all,is a select committee necessary, and that is something that I literally have an open mind on yet.

But the fact is that I cannot possibly see what a select committee can do on a visitation, hopping from place to place in Labrador, on the Coast particularly, sitting for a day session, even a two-day session and leaving, because I suggest that a select committee can really find out no more about what the real problem is than can the ministers or the officials, or the multitude of other people who have visited the area. If I thought it could or it would,by all means. I mean,there would be no question whatsoever. But I really, genuinely 1866

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 683 NM- 2 PREMIER MOORES: do not see at this point where it would do the job that has to be done. Because as the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder),! guess,said just a moment ago, it is no good to just go down with casual visits; he was talking about ministers. I suggest it is also no good to go down with isolated and casual visits by members of the House of Assembly. ! :think that what he is saying basically is correct. It is not that we are opposed to a select committee, I am just wondering what the validity of it is. . But~ a:s ~ t say, I will come to that in a moment.

But to give some ideas to the bon. members of the House as to who nas gone to Labrador and how often, -bec~use_· a lot of people think there has been no govermnent presence there at all. The bon. Minister of Health now has been there twice, and I am talking about in the recent year and a half~ The bon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture has been there on four times. The bon. Minister of Justice has been there twice. The hon. Minister of Social Se~ices has been there twice. The hon. President of the Council, Dr. Farrell, has been there three times. The bon. Minister of Education has been there twice.

And when I say'there~ Mr. Speaker, I mean i n . this .case,as an example, visited Northwest Ri~er, _ Goose Bay,• Davis Inlet, Hopedale, Nain, Makkovik, met with the school boards in the area, visited Goose Bay, Happy Valley, Northwest River, Labrador West, Churchill and so on. The bon. Minister of Mines and Energy has been there on four occasions. The bon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment has been there on three occasions. The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications has been there on three occasions,and once for eight days on the Coast. The hon.

Minister of ~anpower and Industrial Relations, well the list for obvious .r easons, being -a member 1867

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 683 NM- 3 PREMIER MOORES : for the district is very, very long 1 but he has been there many times. We have had a meeting of the Cabinet in Wabush. We have had the Minister of Finance there three times. The Minister of Fisheries,who had a mee~ing of all the fishermen from·~ L'Anse-au-Clair to Nain and then meeting the people on that basis was there for a day or two. I have been in every town in Labrador with . the. ~ception of three on the Northern ·part cf the Coast.

And I have been in every- town on several occasions~ well not· every town on several occasions,but most of them on several occasions. So it is not a matter of people not visiting Labrador~ - - and it is not a matter - of people not listening tp the people of Labrador. I think it goes much deeper than that. Because this year,as an example, Mr.

Speaker, forgetting such things as hydro and all the other things that come into play, but just the normal government services, there were $35 million spent there this year, $35 million spent in such things as - and that excludes,by the way administrative costs, some departments and agencies, Hydro, I.inerboard' s operation and so on;~ 1.868

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 684 NM- 1 PREMIER MOORES: To give you some idea~ _ in the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. We talk about the cost of electricity to the people of Labrador, The fact is that this year the line,of course,from Churchill Falls to Goose Bay -Happy Valley cost $16.5 million, and that was solely to put the hvdro electricity into the Goose Bay - Happy Valley area. But at the same time the rur~l electricity programme for the Coast of Labrador was substantial indeed in that there was $1,700,000 just to pay for rural electricity on the Coast. MR.

SMALLWOOD: PREMIER MOORES : -~-. - - --- That is to subsidize the pr~ce. That is to subsidize the price and put in a few new installations. So to say that nothing is being done fot the cost of :.~lectricity in Labrador, Mr. Speaker, I think is wrong because $1.7 million to provide electricity to the Coast is subsidized is a fair amount when you consider, Mr. Speaker, the number of people who live there. And I will certainly be coming to that in a moment. But they live ove~ 700 miles.

They live in a huge area and quite naturally they have to be supported, but to say that because Churchill Falls is developed tha.t electr~city should be brought to every community on the Coast, that,Mr. Speaker, I would suggest is insanity because you could literally supply a generator for every electrical appliance ' in the world to each house for less than it would cost to put -- ·-- - ---the- transmission line on the Coast.

But areas such as Cartwright, Charlottetown, L'Anse-au-Clair, L'Anse-au-Loup, Mud Lake, Black Tickle, Davis Inlet, Hopedale, Makkovik, Nain, Northwest River, Postville, Rigolet, and so on the list goes. Equally Labrador Services, and we know most I guess--about what Labrador Services have done in the main,and I am not talking about their store outlets,but last year, and this is together with Northern Affairs - and by the wayJ 1869 . --

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 684 NM- 2 PREMIER MOORES: of that $35 million, there ··was $8-million - that was cost shared with the federal government. In Labrador Services there were thirty-five houses bUtlt. MR. SMALLWOOD: ~$35_ ~11ion including the $8 million, or $35 million and $8 million. PREMIER MOORES: No, that includes the $8 million. Makkovik,water and sewer system,which anyone who - has visited· will tell you is,I am afraid,~o~ewhat of a waste of money for what it has-cost and what the people are getting.

The fact is there must be a better way, ce~tainly one more and ' ~~min\lil_:l.~a~_~n,.,there was $1.5 million spent in Labrador last year for roads, which a lot of people may not have . realized because certainly a lot of people do not realize that there is any road work going on at all there,but the fact is there was $1.5 million went there.- - There were airstrips, one built last year. We have got to try to get an agreement with the federal government to get more. And I will be coming to that when I talk about the Coast.

I In lisheries there was $600,000 just in upgrading marine facilities and building new community stages. I think the member for Fogo (Captain Winsor) will agree that $600,000 is not a lot of money,but when you talk about the isolated and smaller, very small fishing settlements as they go, that sort of money does make an impression in those areas. Municipal Affairs and Housing was over $500,000. Parks; the Department of Education, that is school construction, that Ts-the school boards have spent the money.

Rural Development, then of course there"is a forestry and agricultural agreement which is shared with DREE and there are such things as the health 18;·""l0 (/

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 684 NM- 3 PREMIER MOORES: costs,which by the way was some $7 million. Such things as the new DREE agreement of which our share is only $2 million, and there is the mineral development subsidy agreement, once again with our share being just 10 per cent of the total . cost. But all in all what I am trying to illustrate, Mr. Chairman, and I do not mean to be too boring with statistics, · w~ch I know I just have been, but I think statistics are important and I think the ministerial vists are important to help to illustrate that there has not been neglect,in the traditional sense,of Labrador.

The fact is that you hear that the government is never doing -anything, that the - --· - ' Province or the Island part of the Province does not care, and that, Sir, is just not so. The fact is that I say it is not more money in itself that is necessary. There will be more money needed and a great deal ~ore money .needed because the services, particularly in Coastal Labrador;are atrocious and are lacking. There is no question about that at all. We have come a long way in recent years, Mr. Speaker, in all areas of Lab;ador, and particularly,! would suggest,in the service area on the Coast.

We .know we have a long ways further to go. Now let us just look at the Coast of Labrador· for a moment. · .,

March 2, 1977 Tape 685 JM- 1 Premier Moores: The main problem in my opinion is not economic as much as it is so~iological,and that is to say the least. On the Coast of Labrador we are dealing with three peoples, we have the Eskimo, the Indian and the settlers. We have three peoples spread over a hugh area·~·of _ landma~s. __ The.~fact is, Sir, that I would · .suggest that because of the social p~oblems they, in fact, have · ·a_g_~E:_at deal of difficulty agreeing amongst themselves as to-which programme or which series of programmes should be accepted.

The fact is that the Advisory Council when they had the proposition for the Labrador ---- ·- - ·-· Development Council · sai~, -~~~~~-:we would prefer to have another study. 11 Mr. Speake~, the fact is that you have these three peoples spread along this hugh coastline and we sit here, and I guess all of us are guilty of it, and say 1'the people of coastal Labradorl'just as if they were the people of Windsor or the people of Buchans or wherever,as if I they were a group contained and they could be dealt with as such.

Sir, that is not the case because peoples are different no matter where they are or where they are from, ; p~~~le~in communities are different,but when you take people from Nain and try to say their interests and their problems ar~ the ~ame as the people from Forteau you are, in fact, very wrong indeed. You c~uld almost say there are three regions on the coast of Labrador,and that is the Northern region, the Central region and the Southern region and the Straits. Mr.

Speaker, of that 700 miles of coastline and with those few communities scattered along the coast, the total population of the area we are talking about is 3,400 adults and we are talking approximately 7,000 people. MR. SMALLWOOD: Not even as big as Carbpnear. PREMIER MOORES: Not as big as Carbonear and Victoria put together. So it makes it very difficult, Mr. Speaker, to qualify the expenditures of many millions of dollars,even though the problems are severe, for what in effect I suppose you could say is approximately 1,700 families. You know, I think, Sir, we have to put it in perspective and I think 1872

March 2, 1977 Tape 685 JM- 2 Premier Moores: the people in the area have to put it in perspective. I think we are dealing with isolated regions and I think we are dealing with people with great problems, but surely God, Sir, the 1, 7€10 people_:. · the 1,700 families,that should not be economically or sociologically that difficult to overcome.

I mean, if we as a government and as a province and as a provincial people c~not work out the problems ·- ----. . ---- .- -~-- - for 1·, 700 families,we have indeed got a severe problem. ,~ S.ir~~~~- __ _ coas -t of Labrador the prosperity has been almost inverse to the amount of dollars spent. From Nain ·to Rigolet, where by far the most money has been spent because of the Northern Affairs Agreement, I would suggest that the prosperity is less than any other sector of the coast. MR. NEARY: From Nain to Northwest River. PREMIER MOORES: If you want to include that.

But from Cartwright to I Henley Harbour you have betwixt and between. They have had some government assistance. Some people are semi-prosperous and some are not:Social assistance. Fro~ Red Bay to Forteau or L'Anse au Clair you have a much more progressive people or at least they are earning a much ,better living because of, I suppose, .the ice conditions or whatever the case may be,but because of the fishery that area is, in fact, more vibrant. The fact is that area has had, less : spent on it .......... than the Cartwright to Henley Harbour area.

The Cartwright to Henley Harbour area in turn has had less spent on it than the Northern area. The fact is the prosperity and attitude seem to have been better as the least money was spent,and I am not suggesting, Sir, that that in fact is an answer. But why is the great outcry coming from the coast? Communications have, Sir, I would suggest to be improved. They have improved but they have a long way to go. There are many diverse opinions,as I have just mentioned,and that has to be overcome. ~r. Speaker, one of the real problems, in my opinion;_ ~n - - the coast of Labrador, 1873

March 2, 1977 Tape 685 JM- 3 Premier Moores: partic~larly the Northern coast, and I say this with all due respect to people who have gone in on that coast and done a fantastic job as .missionaries and as people who have tried to help the people and so on, the people went in to assist people of all kinds in expressing their opinions.

Most of the organizations that sent in people were to help the people express their opinio~s, get them to think for themselves, sociologists who went in to try to help - the people on the coast to come out of whatever it was they were in in their minds and be part of -m~~ernday " " society and to have the advantages of it. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker~ some, and I will explain this because I think it is important not to say al~_::' the member from Eagle River(Mr.

Strachan) was one and I certainly do not mean him or anyone -- -- - " "' · ·- ·- ·- like him __ :_ __ there have been many others who have gone on that coast and done a tremendous job,but the fact is, Sir, that some of them settled in to the coast and because. of the lack of leadership in the community that they went into ; · because there was no leadership there to bring the rest of the people ahead in their own way, these people had by definition to take over that leadership, not just to get·_-them- -------·· --------- - ·~:.~ - --- to think and do all their things, · ---·-- - 1874

~arch 2, 1977 Tape 686 IB-1 PP.E}'IEP.. 1-~00P.ES : but also they came there for after three or four years , there were in fact the leaders and their opinions r.:rere the native opinions or the settlers' opinions but the people 's opinions. I suggest, Sir, that they today have been leading the local people along more than anybody else, and I suggest, Sir, in a great many cases it is their opinions we are hearing from the coast rather than a lot of the people if they · could express their own.

The fact is, Sir, v1e a:re looking at here a matter of heritage, the local heritage of the :p_e~p~e _ along the Coast of Labrador, -not the heritage of p eop~e who have been there for three or four years even ' though they consider themselves Labradorians. They consider themselves Labradorians, fine, but they cannot consider themselves to establish the heritage of the people on that coast. The problem is, ~"r. Speaker, not that these people did. not mean well, but the fact is that some of them _never worked as anything but sociologists. They have never in fact practiced any other vTay of life.

Now their profession is a great one, I think it is tremendous, but we cannot afford to have sociolog~sts· only,with all due respect, Sir. These cannot be t he o~ly _ ~eaders in the community even though they are needed and needed badly. ~-· NEARY: The hon. Premier would not prefer to see the Indians still living under canvas? PRID~F. MOORES : No, no. That is not what I am talking about at all, not the least bit of what I am talking about, far from it. I mean,if the hon. member had been here I think he would have drawn a different conclusion from ..;.;rhat I have been saying.

I am not being anti the situation at all. I am trying to identify what has happened on the Coast of Labrador as I see it,and I am sure the hon. member will have the -chance . to say it s he sees it but I suggest he read, if he does, the first remarks I had to say as he was not here to listen to them, before he does it . ~- · NOLAN: Would the Premier not agree that this happened in some places 'on the- Island for some time? 1875

Harch 2, 1977 Tape 686 IB-2 PRE~'IER YOOPES : Oh sure, sure. I am speaking of the Coast of Labrador here and very much so I would suggest. But the fact is when you talk about the heritage of Labrador, on the Coast of Labrador, ~r. Speaker, you are talking about a most unusual culture and a most unusual heritage because you have the three groups of people there and all their cultures are in fact different. Their heritage not so much so because I think it is fair to say that the Indians, the Eskimos and the settlers all were trappers~as an example, some to a more or lesser degree than others.

I think the fishing was common to all. I think the handicrafts, fhe way of life, was common in some cases at least, to most. I think it is in_tere~ting to say at this point in time, }!r. Speaker, in t~is-. speech that probably when the Labrador boundary question when it was resolved - I think it is fair to say~- and the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) can correct me on this - but one of the main arguments as to why the height of land between Quebec and Labrador was taken as the boundary was because that in fact was where the trappers trapped into the height of land from the Labrador side 1 and they came into the height of land from the __ g~~be<:_ side. And being that ' distance from home they never tipped over and went on down into the other country. And in fact that was almost the meeting ground where they turned around at the end of their trap lines and ~~nt back home. That, as I understand it,· was a very major factor into the 1~27 decision. Mr.

Speaker, w~th the leadership on the coast as I have mentioned ,and .. . - - - - · -- - -- -------- - I am ~~t saying-Look, Mr. Speaker, I sav .it at this time as wP.l1, hv t:'h.:a way, there is no community in Labrador or anywhere else that does not have the leadership in it. I am not sure the people themselves know Who the leaders are or the leaders themselves know. But given any set · of circumstances Where it is a man and a group of men out on the ice, whether it is a group of men fishing, whether it is a group of men in the lumber woods, there will always be one who will emer ~ e as the leader.

The leadership qualities are there. So please, Sir, do ---- ----- - - - not misinterpret ~>Ihat I am saying in that context. 1.87'6

~~arch 2, 1977 Tape 686 IB-3 PPID!IER ¥00P.ES : But l>re have seen what ls confrontation instead of co-operation, not just with government vis-a-vis the people on the coast, but also amongst the various peoples on the coast and certainly the various co~unities on the coast as to ~.;hat the priorities are. ' Aft~~- ~~ving said what I have just said about this, once again I am back to the attitudes that were mentioned before. Because, }!r. Speaker, I think the"re· is not one member of this House of Assembly, there is net one person in this House, who does not in fact care very much for Labrador. I think we all do.

I do not think v7e know what to do about i~ in to:al - but .I think we all care. I think we would like to come up with what would be the ideal solution. But, Sir~the solution with 1,700 families based on three races, based in fifteen, twenty, twenty-five communities, over 700 miles, is not always the easiest. That is ·why I say, Sir, what=--eo the people- of Coastal Labrador really want and what do ~hey.' r 1.877

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 687 NM- 1 PREMIER MOORES : need? What do other Labradorians need,I suppose I could say in the same breath,._!JUt I would like to . confine my remarks to the Coast right now. What is it t.hat they . need ;- -what i s__ it ;h_ey want,and what can be done about it? I suggest, Sir, first of all they want to be recognized. They want communications. They want a quality of life which has been their own, based on their own traditions.

But also the question has to be asked, after so many years of what now is, the popular term is neglect, but in fact it has been so many years of not b.eing a~le or not wanting to take advantage of opportunities, the fact is you have got to ask a~e people prepare~ t o ~ wor~ for what they really want today, whether it be on the Coast of Labrador or anywhere else. And the answer,as far as some of the people are concerned, is yes, and the answer as far as others ar~ concerned is no. The attitude in that case is what can government do for us?

At!d· they are not talking about services, They are talking about indi~~~als -and_ ~hen,in doubt,if you ; ill l iste~to the soc fologi~ts, when in doubt hav~ another study. But, Mr. Speaker, that is not enough. Because we see in many cases on the Coast of Labrador the worst example of paternalism we have got in this Province. And I suggest paternalism,particularly if the government is the one who is being thi" paterna l ~nfluenc~ · is about the worst situation you can have. Because people will never have pride as long as that is the case, and something has to be done. Mr.

Speaker, I suggest one of the ways to do it is as follows: like in the area of education, it should be studied by the Minister of Education, his department, in conjunction .. with the people of Labrador; they should be lookin~ at a curriculum r ~- 1.878

March 2, 1977 Tape No. 687 NM- 2 PREMIER MOORES : that is meaningful, a curriculum that in fact spells out what their heritage was, what the heritage of this Province is,and why we have so much in common and why we should grow together, not be reading British History or the American Revolution every second day, but to get something in their curriculum where they themselves know what their heritage has been and the values that have gone with that. MR. NEARY: You can say the same thing about- the Island part. PREMIER MOORES : To a large degree, yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: What is to stop it?

PREMIER MOORES : Not a thing that I can see. Another thing as an example would be a vocational, and I do not mean vocational schools, I am talking about voc.iational education. So that in there is an opportunity in a specific. area that there is a mobile programme goes in and teaches those vocational skills in that particular area. That is just in the field of education and of course there are a g~eat many ot her things that can be done in these various fields I will mention as well as those that I am just going to mention very briefly here.

For instance in the area of c.ommunic.ations, we have talked about airstrips,and that is certainly needed and . I do not think there is any question but that is going to' be the foremost form of education on the Coast of Labrador for a long while. You are not going to build a $240 million highway, I think it was, for 1700 families. I am sorry, Sir, that is not I going to happen, not matter who is the government. I do not care who they are. You can put in airstrips, you can put in helicopter servic.es,and you can do these well so people can in fact have transportation.

You can have c.ommunic.ations, the telephones, the radices, the TV's and so on, and this is all important. _ In the area of fisheries, we have got to have 1879

March 2, 19 77 Tape No. 687 NM- 3 PREMIER MOORES: a co-ordinated effort as far as fisheries is concerned. So if the people in the Straits have the advantage in the fisheries policies :_to ; take advantage of what they do best, the same as the native in Davis Inlet and so on. You have got to look at a problem in Labrador on the Coast for instance that there _ c~not possibly be a.n all Winter fishery, because the ice is there for five months a year1 The hon. member for Fogo (Captain Winsor) can tell me. AN HON. MEMBER: More like seven. PREMIER MOORES: How many months a ye~r is the · ice on the Coast of Labrador.

CAPTAIN WINsaR·: Oh it varies depending on the Arctic ice • It could be at least five months. PREMIER MOORES: Five months, that is what I thought. CAPTAIN WINSOR: And sometimes it is six months. PREMIER MOORES: Well five, six months by definition, Mr. Speaker, there is no way that there can be a fishery on the Labrador as far as going and catching the fish is concerned. But when there is a fishery po-ssiollity there,and it is one of the richest areas in North America for fishing, when the fishery opportunity is there then of course programmes have to be devised so that they c