Debates of Feb. 10th, 1994

This is page numbers 55 - 89 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was violence .

Topics

Members Present

Item 1: Prayer

The Baffin Leadership Summit

Cutting Firewood In The Nwt

White Cane Week

Cibc Installation Of Debit Card Terminals

White Cane Week

Member's Statement Re Impact Of Lowering Tobacco Taxes In Nwt

Rental Adjustments In Nwt

Absence From The House

Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Minister's Efforts Re Social Housing

Minister's Plans To Address Social Housing Crisis

Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Rental Scale For Low Wage Earners Or Unemployed

Housing Policy For Aboriginal People In Yellowknife

Conflict Re Minister Of Housing Corporation's Roles

Decision On Increase In Territorial Tobacco Tax

Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Effect Of Rental Increases On Home Ownership Program

Conflict Of Minister Serving As Chairman Of Advisory Committee

Legal Opinion Re Conflict Of Minister Serving As Chairman Of Advisory Committee

Rental Rates Based On Percentage Of Household Income

Written Question 4-12(5): Commuting Allowances For Government Employees

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Tabled Document 4-12(5): Building A Strategy For Dealing With Violence In The NwtTabled Document 5-12(5): Declaration On Family ViolenceTabled Document 6-12(5): Department Of Justice Response To The Justice House - Report Of The Special Advisor On Gender Equality

Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Item 20: Orders Of The Day

Members Present

Mr. Allooloo , Mr. Antoine , Hon. Silas Arngna'naaq , Mr. Ballantyne , Hon. Nellie Cournoyea , Mr. Dent , Mr. Gargan , Hon. Stephen Kakfwi , Mr. Lewis , Hon. Jeannie Marie-Jewell , Hon. Rebecca Mike , Hon. Don Morin , Mr. Ng , Mr. Ningark , Mr. Patterson , Hon. John Pollard , Mr. Pudlat , Hon. John Todd , Mr. Whitford , Mr. Zoe

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---Prayer

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 55

The Speaker

Thank you. Good afternoon. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Amittuq , Mr. Allooloo .

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The Baffin Leadership Summit

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 55

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I rise today to inform the House and the public about the meeting that recently took place in Iqaluit. During the week of January 9 to 14, I had the honour of chairing the Baffin leadership summit which met to discuss issues of regional concern. Attending were MLAs from the Baffin region, mayors from the 13 communities, as well as representatives from the Baffin Regional Inuit Association, Baffin Divisional Board of Education, Kakivak Association, Quikiqtaluk Corporation, Nunavut Arctic College, Baffin Regional Health Board, Baffin Alcohol and Drug Treatment Centre, Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated and the Government of the Northwest Territories.

During the intense four-day session, we discussed a wide variety of issues including education, especially getting leaders and the parents more involved in encouraging students to complete their schooling, retaining the name Arctic College for Nunavut campus, the need for family housing units for students, and support for Baffin and Nunavut training strategy and plan.

The second area of concern was economic development, which included a commitment to begin work on a Baffin economic strategy, including developing terms of reference for a regional economic planner position, support for parks and tourism, and ensuring that as much benefit as possible is retained by local people from sport hunting and other ventures.

The third topic was health. The main topic of discussion was support for design and construction of a the new Baffin Regional Hospital. Renewable Resources was a fourth issue. Topics included support for increases in funding for the Baffin Regional Hunters' and Trappers' Committee and requests that Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated ensure that the hunters income support program be put in place as soon as possible.

Madam Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to continue with my statement. Thank you.

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The Baffin Leadership Summit

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 55

The Speaker

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Allooloo .

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The Baffin Leadership Summit

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 55

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Madam Speaker and colleagues. In the area of housing, there was support for development of a strategy to address the urgent need for staff housing for some communities in the Baffin region. The sixth topic was alcohol and drug workers. Support was given for the effort to come up with more funds to address the lack of housing for staff and to supplement salaries and benefits to alcohol and drug workers. Number seven, Nunavut law school, the summit agreed to support the current initiatives to establish the Nunavut law school. The eighth area of concern was the code of conduct. We also committed to develop and adopt a code of conduct for Baffin leaders.

Madam Speaker, in addition, the Baffin Leadership Working Group was established to look into the possibility of creating an organization of Baffin leaders whose main function would be to enable us to cooperate and work together, a new and improved regional leaders forum, so to speak. Finally, Madam Speaker, we decided that the next Baffin leaders summit will be in Cape Dorset this spring. As you know, Cape Dorset is on the leading edge of the community transfer initiative program, and it will give us a chance, for the first time, to look at their progress.

At the appropriate time, Madam Speaker, I will be tabling copies of the 16 resolutions and related correspondence which provide further details of our discussion. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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The Baffin Leadership Summit

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 55

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Allooloo . Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Deh Cho , Mr. Gargan .

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Cutting Firewood In The Nwt

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 55

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I recently had a constituent of mine, Mr. Albert Norwegian, attempt to explain to me all the rules and permits necessary to cut firewood for a living in the Northwest Territories. Madam Speaker, in addition to having to comply with a provision of the Motor Vehicles Act, which restricts Mr. Norwegian to only use half the capability of his truck, Mr. Norwegian has to obtain the following permits: the land use permit, timber cutting permit, timber transport permit and a timber road ticket permit. The fees involved are astronomical.

Wood cutters pay $950 up front to cut 150 cords of wood; $20 for the application fees; $54 for the stumpage fees; and, $270 for reforestation fees.

Madam Speaker, as most Members are aware, wood cutting contributes to the economy as well as to the environment. Firewood is culled from the forest. There is no clear cutting. The only wood that is used is dead wood. In my opinion, Madam Speaker, the wood cutting by its very nature, encourages the environment by allowing new growth to occur. I can see charging logging company stumpage and reforestation fees, but I do not believe that firewood cutting has the impact upon the environment that warrants the charging of these fees if any wood cutting contributes to the government's reforestation program.

Madam Speaker, the government pays people to cut firebreaks and thin trees in some areas. Why then is the government trying to discourage a small environmentally friendly business that will ultimately contribute to the success of their forestry initiative? Madam Speaker, the government has to take a serious look at its policy for firewood cutting. There has to be a better financial incentive for people to be involved in this industry. The government has over-regulated this industry. I will be pursuing this matter in the weeks to come. Mahsi cho, Madam Speaker.

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Cutting Firewood In The Nwt

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 56

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre , Mr. Lewis .

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White Cane Week

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 56

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yesterday, Madam Speaker, was the beginning of white cane week. This week is set aside to make the public aware of the challenges of blind people. Lydia Bardak, the executive director of the local branch of the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, was here yesterday, and I believe she expected us to mark the beginning of this week. She did so herself yesterday, Madam Speaker, by co-hosting the morning radio show on CBC.

Throughout the country yesterday many people engaged in communications, sports, politics and entertainment to spend some time blindfolded. It gave them a brief experience of what it's like to live without sight.

Those of us who served on the last Assembly had the privilege of working with Charlie Crow, the MLA from Sanikiluaq, who had been blind since childhood and who gave deep insight into the enormous challenges that face blind people.

The CNIB celebrated it's 75th anniversary last year, and many of us took advantage of visiting the travelling exhibition. Canada has played a very important role in developing technology to assist blind people. I know Members will join me in offering best wishes to the CNIB for its successful campaign during this white cane week.

Members have in front of them a small package which contains a little document that tells you what you do when you meet a blind person, an example of Braille and a Braille alphabet bookmark. And, of course, everybody will have a white cane to remember that this is the beginning of white cane week. Thank you.

---Applause

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White Cane Week

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 56

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot , Mr. Ng .

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Cibc Installation Of Debit Card Terminals

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 56

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The GNWT recently announced the awarding of its banking services to CIBC. In the January 18 press release, the Minister of Finance said the decision to remain with the bank was largely based on a combination of the service they will be providing to the government, combined with its branch network in the NWT, plans it has for community banking initiatives and their commitment for hiring more aboriginal staff.

These banking initiatives also confirm an exclusive arrangement CIBC has with the Northwest Company, for the installation of debit card terminals in various Northern Stores. Debit card service will allow card holders to pay directly for merchandise purchases, as well as receive cash from their accounts if they so desire.

Madam Speaker, I wish to point out that this new debit card service that will become available to some communities and to some consumers who have or will be able to obtain debit cards is, in fact, not of great benefit to residents of our communities. The individuals currently owning chequing accounts with banks were able to write cheques for their purchases and, in most cases, receive extra cash if required, so the availability of debit card terminals may add some convenience to the existing system. However, most of our residents will not be able to obtain debit cards or may not necessarily want them.

At this time, I do wish to commend CIBC for their efforts to provide a new service to our communities, in addition to the commercial and residential lending that the bank does in some of our communities.

Madam Speaker, my main concern with the CIBC banking proposal which has been accepted by the GNWT is the exclusive arrangement the bank has made with the Northwest Company for the installation of debit terminals in their various stores.

Madam Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

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Cibc Installation Of Debit Card Terminals

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 56

The Speaker

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to continue with his Member's statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Continue, Mr. Ng .

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Cibc Installation Of Debit Card Terminals

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 56

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. This exclusive arrangement will be detrimental to all other retailers and competitors of Northern Stores. In the majority of our communities, the main competitor is the locally owned and controlled cooperative. These cooperative stores and other

private operators will lose a significant amount of their business as a result of not having the opportunity to establish debit card terminals in their stores.

Madam Speaker, I hope the GNWT recognizes this important concern and attempts to deal with it in a fair manner. Mahsi.

---Applause

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Cibc Installation Of Debit Card Terminals

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 57

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South , Mr. Whitford .

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White Cane Week

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 57

Tony Whitford

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I, too, would like to make a few comments on white cane week and a bit of a background on CNIB.

The first white cane week grew out of the experiences of a small group of blind people who had discovered that the public generally did not understand the meaning of the white cane as a symbol of blindness. In 1946, the Canadian Council of the Blind developed a national education program to tell Canadians that the white cane means the carrier has a serious visual problem. The CCB later invited the Canadian National Institute for the Blind to get involved, and the two organizations became co-sponsors of white cane week.

Since then, white cane week has become a national network of special events, hands-on demonstrations, open houses, tours, speakers and activities throughout more than 60 CNIB centres and 95 clubs from coast to coast, including the Northwest Territories.

Madam Speaker, I know a good number of the people who are taking care of the information booths that are in many of the communities. My son is included in that, and they are to be saluted. Over the years the program of White Cane Week has involved to reflect the changing situation of blind and visually impaired people. In the early years, the week was used to demonstrate the concerns for rehabilitation, blindness prevention and advocacy. In more recent years, events have begun to emphasize the capabilities of the blind and the visually impaired people, themselves.

The aim was to draw blind and sighted people closer together in order that they may be able to support one another. I quote, "In this decade and into the next century, we are going to have to develop a healthy attitude about blindness and visual impairment."

I think that people like myself have to be made comfortable in the recognition that there is nothing wrong with this human condition. It is respectable to be blind. It is okay to have poor or failing vision in our society." This is a quote from Dr. Euclid Herie, who is the CNIB president.

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White Cane Week

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 57

The Speaker

Thank you. Mr. Whitford .

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White Cane Week

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 57

Tony Whitford

Yellowknife South

I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

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White Cane Week

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 57

The Speaker

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to continue with his Member's statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed.

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White Cane Week

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 57

Tony Whitford

Yellowknife South

Thank you, colleagues and Madam Speaker. People are our most precious natural resource. It must be understood that all people have the ability and the desire to contribute and be part of society. In the Northwest Territories, there are at least 150 people who are blind or severally visually impaired. Many more have not made contact with helping agencies. Quietly, they are struggling with their visual loss. We need to work together to have all individuals participate fully in their community. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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White Cane Week

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 57

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Yellowknife North .

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Member's Statement Re Impact Of Lowering Tobacco Taxes In Nwt

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 57

Michael Ballantyne

Yellowknife North

The decision of the federal government to lower tobacco taxes in order to curb spending in Quebec, to a lesser extent in other provinces, has serious ramifications for the Northwest Territories. These include loss of revenue, a possible influx of cheaper cigarettes from the south and, most importantly, a serious threat to the health of northerners, especially young people.

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Member's Statement Re Impact Of Lowering Tobacco Taxes In Nwt

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 57

An Hon. Member

Hear, hear.

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Member's Statement Re Impact Of Lowering Tobacco Taxes In Nwt

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 57

Michael Ballantyne

Yellowknife North

The federal solution was to deal with rampant smuggling in Quebec, but it is totally inappropriate for the Northwest Territories. The former Government of the Northwest Territories raised taxes on cigarettes significantly and was strongly criticized by smokers for doing so. However, our fundamental justification, over and above increased revenue, was to provide a deterrent to smoking, especially among young people.

I am a product, myself, of a generation who had cheap cigarettes and no anti-smoking education. I have had mixed success in beating the dreaded habit, and I don't want my children to repeat my experience. I would support the government in raising NWT tax to keep the price of cigarettes constant in the north. I am sure there will be pressure by the federal government to follow their lead.

In the final analysis, all provinces and territories may be forced to react to cross-provincial and territorial smuggling. But for now, I feel strongly that we should stand by the principles that cigarettes are more of a threat to our young people than are smugglers. Thank you very much.

---Applause

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Member's Statement Re Impact Of Lowering Tobacco Taxes In Nwt

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 57

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Iqaluit , Mr. Patterson .

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Rental Adjustments In Nwt

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 57

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, last week I attended a community consultation meeting on social housing issues conducted by the NWT Housing Corporation at the insistence of the Minister of Housing . The Baffin district manager gave a very thorough, but low-key briefing on a whole range of current housing issues in my constituency.

Madam Speaker, one issue leapt out at the meeting, like a dark cloud blotting out the sun. It turns out that the Housing Corporation is proposing a major rent review, which I understand translates into lifting the proposed rent ceilings for social housing tenants in Nunavut. We are told this is driven by CMHC cuts to O and M funding to our government's social housing program this coming fiscal year and we are told it is driven by fairness and equity.

Madam Speaker, many of my constituents were lured, or even intimidated, into moving from camps onto the land by federal officials, on the promise of free housing, health and education benefits. They are still alive. They still remember the promises made to induce them to leave their camps and the veiled threats they were given.

I will never forget how one elderly constituent, now deceased, explained to me the pain he suffered on being told by an RCMP officer that he must shoot his own dog team before moving into town.

Madam Speaker, the federal government is taking away the support for public housing, we learned, but it is the Government of the Northwest Territories, and its Housing Corporation, who are proposing to raise the rent. If our government has accepted this change demanded by the federal government, who is going to confront the federal government about breaking their promise to my Inuit constituents? Has our government accepted the deletion of O and M funding without a whimper and decided rent increases must go ahead?

Or, is this community consultation going to be a real consultation process where my constituents, and this House, will have a chance to say no to rent increases and no to federal cutbacks?

Madam Speaker, as I understand it...

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Rental Adjustments In Nwt

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 58

An Hon. Member

(Microphone turned off)

---Laughter

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Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 58

The Speaker

Thank you. Mr. Patterson .

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Rental Adjustments In Nwt

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 58

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

May I request unanimous consent to carry on with my statement?

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Rental Adjustments In Nwt

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 58

The Speaker

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to continue with his Member's statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed.

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Rental Adjustments In Nwt

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 58

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker. As I understand it, Madam Speaker, the Housing Corporation also proposed to lift the ceilings now in place for social housing in Iqaluit, on the basis of fairness and equity. However, Madam Speaker, I want to say this about fairness and equity. Social housing tenants, in my constituency, do not have wood to build houses or to fuel their stoves. Social housing tenants, in my constituency, do not have all-weather or even winter roads to reduce the highest cost of living in the country.

The rent ceilings were put in place many years ago, to recognize the high cost of living of communities off the road where there are no local fuel supplies. Since the cost of living and supply of local wood has not changed, how can it be fair or equitable to now remove the ceilings on rent?

Madam Speaker, I cannot emphasize enough the sensitivity of this matter in my constituency. I fear that if these arbitrary increases are imposed -- and I understand the deadline may be as soon as July of this coming year, when federal funding is cut off -- many of my constituents, including large families, will have no choice but to move into deplorable shacks and qammaqs before they will pay these sharp increases in rent. A number of them are already living on the beach in my constituency, as Members of this House know.

My constituents will expect the Government of the Northwest Territories and the Minister of the Housing Corporation to take more forceful action with the federal government in the face of this treacherous action, not to repeat the treachery with my constituents, who have no alternative. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 58

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Natilikmiot , Mr. Ningark .

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Absence From The House

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 58

John Ningark

Natilikmiot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, as a courtesy, through you, I would like to inform the House that I will be absent from February 16 to 19, attending the Kitikmeot Inuit Association conference in Cambridge Bay. Thank you.

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Absence From The House

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 58

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Ningark . Item 3, Members' statements. Before going to returns to oral questions, the Speaker would like to recognize a former Member of the Assembly, Mr. Abe Okpik.

---Applause

I would also like to recognize Bertha Allen, president of the Native Women's Association.

---Applause

And councillor Steve Brooks from Hay River.

---Applause

Welcome to the Assembly. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Iqaluit , Mr. Patterson .

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Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 58

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister for Housing . Madam Speaker, for a number of months, the Minister responsible for Housing has been updating this House with regard to his many trips to Ottawa and elsewhere to negotiate with the federal government to make up the short fall in funding for social housing. I would like to ask the Minister if he could advise the House of the current status of those negotiations. Thank you.

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Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 58

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr.

Morin.

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Return To Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The current status of the negotiations to reinstate funding for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation is we're putting a package together to present to Mr. Paul Martin on behalf of the Government of the Northwest Territories, not only on the housing issues but the health issue and other issues affecting the government. Thank you.

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Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, the honourable Member for Iqaluit , Mr. Patterson .

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Supplementary To Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, we know that the federal Minister of Finance is going to be presenting his budget very shortly in the House of Commons. Is that when we might expect to have an answer on this issue of the restoration of social housing cuts, during the federal budget? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I haven't had an opportunity to look at the federal government's budget, I don't think anybody has. I don't expect to have our housing problems solved by the federal budget. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Patterson .

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Supplementary To Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

My final supplementary, Madam Speaker. Then, when does the Minister expect to be able to give this House a final answer on this issue? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

The Speaker

Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. We have made presentations to the federal government on behalf of the people of the Northwest Territories. We presented the unique case of the people of the Northwest Territories and made it very clear to the federal government that they have a legal responsibility to the aboriginal people of the NWT to supply housing. We've always come from that direction and we will continue to do that.

We've met with them several times to try to get funding for social housing. There is funding for aboriginal housing on reserves in southern Canada. That funding, I understand, will continue. In 1994, there is zero funding for new construction of social housing in the Northwest Territories. Through the Minister of Finance , Mr. Paul Martin, we are attempting to negotiate a package to solve that problem.

Through the CMHC route, the process I was directly involved in, I think we've dried up all avenues to get funding reinstated. There is a slight light at the end of the tunnel. I hope it's not a train, but there is a slight light that with the savings we create within CMHC and the Housing Corporation, we can put that money back into housing. But, I don't expect to get anything through the CMHC process. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Question 38-12(5): Status Of Negotiations Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Morin . The Speaker would like to recognize Mrs. Esther Braden in the gallery, the president of the NWT Seniors' Society.

---Applause

In addition, I would welcome the elders that are visiting us today, also.

---Applause

Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre , Mr. Lewis .

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Question 39-12(5): Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister responsible for Housing . I would like to ask the Minister, since he has been to Ottawa on at least five occasions and for all that tenacity he has come back empty-handed and since there is going to be no money -- as he has admitted -- through CMHC, does this mean that the federal government refuses to accept its legal responsibility for social housing in the Northwest Territories?

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Question 39-12(5): Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

The Speaker

Thank you. The Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Return To Question 39-12(5): Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Question 39-12(5): Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Just to set the record straight, we managed to return last year with $10 million above and beyond what we would have been allocated under the CMHC process, in case Mr. Lewis forgot about that. My reading of the issue of the federal government's responsibility to aboriginal people is that the federal government has never, ever lived up to that responsibility since they started building houses in the Northwest Territories and I don't see them accepting that responsibility, to date. They should. Thank you.

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Return To Question 39-12(5): Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Question 39-12(5): Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Lewis .

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Supplementary To Question 39-12(5): Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Question 39-12(5): Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 59

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

To the same Minister, despite the many visits that he has made to Ottawa and due to the obvious unwillingness

of the federal government to fulfil its legal obligations, what is the position of this government? What is this government going to do with a federal government that refuses to accept its legal responsibility?

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Supplementary To Question 39-12(5): Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Question 39-12(5): Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 39-12(5): Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Question 39-12(5): Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. We have always said that it is the responsibility of the federal government and that they have the legal obligation to supply housing for aboriginal people in the Northwest Territories. We continue to tell them that. We have encouraged aboriginal groups to deal directly with the federal government on the housing crisis in the Northwest Territories. We will do everything possible to assist aboriginal groups, to make sure the federal government does live up to its responsibilities. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 39-12(5): Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Question 39-12(5): Federal Government's Legal Responsibility For Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

The Speaker

Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Deh Cho , Mr. Gargan .

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Question 40-12(5): Minister's Efforts Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. To the Minister responsible for Housing , what efforts has the Minister made to meet with the Minister responsible for Indian Affairs and Northern Development to ensure that DIAND picks up where CMHC has left off, in terms of funding for social housing, particularly to aboriginal and treaty people?

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Question 40-12(5): Minister's Efforts Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Return To Question 40-12(5): Minister's Efforts Re Social Housing

Question 40-12(5): Minister's Efforts Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. We have made it very clear to the federal government that Indian Affairs does fund aboriginal housing in southern Canada, to the tune of $130 million a year. I have raised the issue, personally, with the Minister responsible for Indian Affairs of the federal government. My colleague, the Honourable John Pollard , has raised the issue. Our Premier has raised the issue with the same Minister, as well as with the Prime Minister. Stephen Kakfwi , the Minister for Intergovernmental Affairs , has raised the issue when he has met with them. As well, we will be attending a meeting in Edmonton on February 16, with Mr. Irwin and we will raise the issue again. Thank you.

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Return To Question 40-12(5): Minister's Efforts Re Social Housing

Question 40-12(5): Minister's Efforts Re Social Housing

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot , Mr. Ng .

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Question 41-12(5): Minister's Plans To Address Social Housing Crisis

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation . The Minister has repeatedly reassured this House and its committees that he is pursuing the federal government to re-establish the cut funds for social housing. We all acknowledge and commend him on his efforts in that respect. However, there is a possibility that no funds will become available. What does the Minister plan to do to address the crisis in social housing, when no further federal funding is available?

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Question 41-12(5): Minister's Plans To Address Social Housing Crisis

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Question 41-12(5): Minister's Plans To Address Social Housing Crisis

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Besides praying, if there is no funding from the federal government, we have attempted to address a portion of the needs. We would be dreaming in technicolour if any of us think that with the existing dollars we have, we can solve the social housing problem in the Northwest Territories. This problem is far too big. It's too huge, it's a crisis. If you think that this government, with the funds that it has, can solve it on its own, then we are dreaming in technicolour. We have to find a source of outside funds, or find some other ways to be funded because we just don't have the money. Even with the money we had last year, we're not even meeting ten per cent of the need.

If we had continued to get around $40 million to $47 million a year from the federal government, then we could have slowly closed the gap on social housing problems. But as it is now, the gap is getting bigger and it may mean we'll have to make some hard decisions. All 24 of us, not just myself or Cabinet. It's going to mean we'll have to make some hard decisions on how we spend our money. Thank you.

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Return To Question 41-12(5): Minister's Plans To Address Social Housing Crisis

Question 41-12(5): Minister's Plans To Address Social Housing Crisis

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

The Speaker

Thank you. Mr. Ng , supplementary.

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Supplementary To Question 41-12(5): Minister's Plans To Address Social Housing Crisis

Question 41-12(5): Minister's Plans To Address Social Housing Crisis

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

I think we recognize that the sale of the GNWT's housing in this current year has gone toward providing some of the social housing for this year, and possibly for next year. Does the government or the Minister have any plans to sell off any other assets of this government to meet the social housing needs?

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Supplementary To Question 41-12(5): Minister's Plans To Address Social Housing Crisis

Question 41-12(5): Minister's Plans To Address Social Housing Crisis

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

The Speaker

Thank you Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 41-12(5): Minister's Plans To Address Social Housing Crisis

Question 41-12(5): Minister's Plans To Address Social Housing Crisis

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Right now, the government is doing an inventory of the other assets we own. There are no immediate plans of myself, as Minister, to sell off anything to solve the housing crises. That would have to be a Cabinet decision, and a decision with recommendations made of this House. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 41-12(5): Minister's Plans To Address Social Housing Crisis

Question 41-12(5): Minister's Plans To Address Social Housing Crisis

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Deh Cho , Mr. Gargan .

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Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 60

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is

to the Minister of Housing with regard to the allocation of public housing. With the shortage in almost every community, everyone is concerned that a fair allocation of public and social housing units should be made. Without getting into the actual allocation of units, can the Minister explain the logic and process used to allocate the available units to NWT communities?

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Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 61

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Return To Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 61

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Two years ago, the NWT Housing Corporation, in partnership with the communities, made a comprehensive needs study in all the communities of the Northwest Territories. Through that needs study, it identifies those people in need of units, what type of units are needed, what type of programs are needed to address their need, that's how the allocation is based.

Right now, your allocation for your communities is meeting, I believe, less than ten per cent of the actual needs. So if you need 100 units, you're going to get approximately ten or less. But the allocation is distributed fairly that way.

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Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 61

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Gargan .

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Supplementary To Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 61

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I can only speak on my constituency, but one of the things I have noticed this year in my constituency is a substantial reduction of public access to social housing. I believe that allocation far exceeds the needs assessment. In other words, I realize in my constituency perhaps I didn't even get the ten per cent required. I would like to ask the Minister what he is doing in order to address the needs assessment and the allocations required by that needs assessment.

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Supplementary To Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 61

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 42-12(5): Process For Allocation Of Housing Units

Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 61

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Like I said, the allocation is based on the needs assessment. We are trying to make the best use of the dollars, the best mix of the use of the dollars that we have. When we build public housing stock or rent supp, we can build approximately seven, I think it is, home ownership units compared to the one. We try to use the proper mix. The mix we are using this year is 70 per

cent home ownership and 30 per cent rent supp. Then, we allocated that according to need. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 42-12(5): Process For Allocation Of Housing Units

Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 61

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Gargan .

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Supplementary To Question 42-12(5): Process For Allocation Of Housing Units

Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 61

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Before Christmas, I wrote a constituency newsletter with regard to dealing with housing, only. In that newsletter, I did identify a lot of the old northern rental units that have to be replaced. I believe there are 12 of them. There are also about 24 young parents, single parents, who need houses and don't have any. I have also identified bachelors who also have no units. The way I see it is that the allocations that have been made to my constituency only address maybe a couple of families, when you know, in fact, they should be looking at the other people.

What I'm saying to the Minister is that the allocation doesn't meet the needs assessment that was done in my constituency. I'm saying that if the requirement is for 20 units and I only get four, then how is he addressing the other 16 that are required based on that needs assessment?

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Supplementary To Question 42-12(5): Process For Allocation Of Housing Units

Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 61

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 42-12(5): Process For Allocation Of Housing Units

Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 61

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Your constituency, Mr. Gargan , is no different than any other constituency. There are a certain number of people in need who are not going to get help. It's as simple as that. I do not have the money. We can only address those needs that we have the financial resources to address. It's as simple as that. I do not have the money. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 42-12(5): Process For Allocation Of Housing Units

Question 42-12(5): Process Used For Allocation Of Housing Units

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 61

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Amittuq , Mr. Allooloo .

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Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 61

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Housing , most of the residents of the Northwest Territories have heard a little bit about the potential rental rate changes for the social housing. The Housing Corporation staff have been in most of the communities in the Northwest Territories, if not all, to discuss this. Could the Minister explain what factors are driving the proposed rent changes, both internal to the NWT and also external? Thank you.

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Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 61

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Return To Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 61

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The policy for the review of the rent scale has not been reviewed since 1983. As you know, it's an outdated policy. Everything that we, as a government, are supposed to be doing is supposed to be done in a fair, equitable manner and that's what we're attempting to do. CMHC has told the territorial government that if you do not increase your rents, because they are lower than other jurisdictions, they will take back operations and maintenance money from us. How much that is, I do not

know. We are doing this in a slow and precise fashion. What is happening in your communities, and which everyone has been made aware of, all housing authorities have been consulted, there are family income forms being completed right now, so every Member will know how it will affect your riding. That is supposed to be done quickly. Then we have to develop a new rental scale, a proposal, and we have to take that to the Advisory Committee on Housing and Cabinet, to get approval. Then it would be phased in. Thank you.

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Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Allooloo .

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Supplementary To Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I hear the Minister saying that in the event of changes, the government is proposing to implement the new rental rates for social housing. How much notice will the current tenants be given, if there are going to be any changes to the rental rates? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

The Speaker

Thank you. The Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hopefully, by March of this year, we will have done community consultations and individual tenant impact briefings. In April 1994, the new rent scale will be drafted to go to Cabinet and the advisory committee. Community meetings to present the new rent scale will happen in May of 1994. In May of 1994, rent notices will go to the tenants. In August of 1994, any adjustments will be implemented then. For those people who will have a drop in rent, it will be done immediately. For those people who will have increased rents, it will be phased in. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Allooloo .

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Supplementary To Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

Titus Allooloo

Amittuq

Madam Speaker, when the government increased the staff housing units to their employees, they phased them in. Will the phasing in method that the government used for staff housing be similar to social housing, if there are going to be rate adjustments?

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Supplementary To Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The phasing time will be determined through the consultation process. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Question 43-12(5): Internal And External Factors Of Proposed Rental Changes

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot , Mr. Ng .

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Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation . Is there going to be a factor for the cost of living in different communities included in the rental adjustments? Is that included in the new rental rates?

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Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Return To Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yes.

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Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Ng .

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Supplementary To Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

Kelvin Ng

Kitikmeot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. On what basis is the cost of living going to be determined for each of these communities?

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Supplementary To Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing .

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Further Return To Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. That work will be done by the Department of Social Services.

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Further Return To Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Baffin South .

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Further Return To Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

Kenoayoak Pudlat

Baffin South

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Further Return To Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

The Speaker

I am sorry, Mr. Pudlat . We don't appear to be getting translation. Could I ask you to start again and see if we can receive some translation. Proceed.

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Further Return To Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

Kenoayoak Pudlat

Baffin South

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Further Return To Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

The Speaker

No, we are not receiving translation. I will request a five minute break and see if we can address this issue.

---SHORT RECESS

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Further Return To Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Question 44-12(5): Cost Of Living Factor In Rental Adjustments

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 62

The Speaker

I will call the House back to order. Order, please. Thank you. Before we proceed, Mr. Pudlat , I would like to recognize Mr. Mike Paulette, the vice-president of the Metis Nation.

---Applause

Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Pudlat , would you like to attempt your question again, please? Thank you.

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Question 45-12(5): Rental Scale For Low Wage Earners Or Unemployed

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 63

Kenoayoak Pudlat

Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Madam Speaker. Can you all hear me now? Thank you. My questions are going to be directed to the Minister of Housing . Coming from Baffin south, many Members have constituents who are unemployed or underemployed, as a result of lack of employment opportunities in the communities or lack of supplies like soapstone. These people are concerned about the impact of the winter. Can the Minister explain why people are left out on the street in the winter because they can't pay high rents? There is a lot of unemployment in our communities. Sometimes it is very difficult for a tenant to pay high rents. It is especially hard for the unemployed people.

Madam Speaker, I would like to stress that with the staff housing strategy, the government is aggressively promoting home ownership. Is this promotion of home ownership access the result of the Minister's wishes to achieve changes to territorial housing rents?

There are people who are unemployed and some people are being evicted from their houses because they can't pay for their rents. If you are going to have such high rates, we would like to see the government reduce the rents that have been increased. We would like to see people living well and not on social assistance.

Today, our lifestyle has changed dramatically. Can the Minister answer my question on what plan the government has regarding the smaller number of access units, to encourage and support those social housing tenants interested in home ownership? Thank you.

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Question 45-12(5): Rental Scale For Low Wage Earners Or Unemployed

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 63

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Pudlat . May I remind Members to attempt to keep your

preambles to your questions as precise as possible. Without taking away the fundamental right of freedom of speech for Members, I would also like to request the Ministers to make every attempt to keep your answers as precise and short as possible. Thank you. The honourable Minister for Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Return To Question 45-12(5): Rental Scale For Low Wages Earners Or Unemployed

Question 45-12(5): Rental Scale For Low Wage Earners Or Unemployed

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 63

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. For those people with lower incomes, the new rental scale review program may even, in some cases, lower their rent. For those people with higher income, it will never exceed 25 to 30 per cent of their gross income, including the cost of living. Thank you.

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Question 45-12(5): Rental Scale For Low Wage Earners Or Unemployed

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 63

The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, the honourable Member for Baffin South , Mr. Pudlat .

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Supplementary To Question 45-12(5): Rental Scale For Low Wage Earners Or Unemployed

Question 45-12(5): Rental Scale For Low Wage Earners Or Unemployed

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 63

Kenoayoak Pudlat

Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Madam Speaker. We have unemployed people who are paying a lot of money for rent. Our constituents have to be aware about what is happening with changes to social housing and rental rates. Would it be possible for the Minister to answer this question briefly and precisely? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 45-12(5): Rental Scale For Low Wage Earners Or Unemployed

Question 45-12(5): Rental Scale For Low Wage Earners Or Unemployed

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 63

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 45-12(5): Rental Scale For Low Wage Earners Or Unemployed

Question 45-12(5): Rental Scale For Low Wage Earners Or Unemployed

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 63

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Right now, the Housing Corporation is doing a house-to-house survey of the 5,500 housing units we have. Every person in your riding that lives in public housing will be consulted and they will know how the new rental program affects them. They will be consulted with and it will be explained to them in their own language. That is the process we will be using.

For those people who are unemployed, this isn't going to affect them. If you are not capable of paying rent, if you are unemployed, that is what the social housing program is there for, to assist those people. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 45-12(5): Rental Scale For Low Wage Earners Or Unemployed

Question 45-12(5): Rental Scale For Low Wage Earners Or Unemployed

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 63

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre , Mr. Whitford .

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Question 46-12(5): Housing Policy For Aboriginal People In Yellowknife

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 63

Tony Whitford

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question as well for the Minister responsible for Housing . It deals with the situation that aboriginal people in Yellowknife find themselves in. Recent surveys have indicated that Yellowknife is, by far, the largest aboriginal community in the Northwest Territories and yet we are almost being ignored as far as housing allocation is concerned. At least, this is the information I'm getting from aboriginal people who live in the city. Sometimes the Dene, Metis and Inuit people who live here feel discriminated against.

I would like to ask the Minister what is the policy for the city of Yellowknife, when it comes to dealing with great numbers of aboriginal peoples who choose to, or by circumstance, find themselves living here in Yellowknife? Their need is as great as it is in the communities, at times. What is the policy for Yellowknife?

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Question 46-12(5): Housing Policy For Aboriginal People In Yellowknife

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 63

The Speaker

Thank you. The Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Return To Question 46-12(5): Housing Policy For Aboriginal People In Yellowknife

Question 46-12(5): Housing Policy For Aboriginal People In Yellowknife

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 63

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yellowknife is different than the outlying communities. The need is different, as well. The majority of the need in Yellowknife is an affordability need and the majority of the need in the communities is there is just no housing available. It's as simple as that. Yellowknife has public housing, it has the North Slave social housing and there is also the access program. Thank you.

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Question 46-12(5): Housing Policy For Aboriginal People In Yellowknife

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 64

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Deh Cho , Mr. Gargan .

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Question 47-12(5): Conflict Re Minister Of Housing Corporation's Roles

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 64

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Housing . The Advisory Committee on Social Housing was established by this Legislative Assembly. The committee includes ordinary Members, and yourself, Mr. Minister. It is expected that the committee will provide recommendations to the government on social housing issues. Does the Minister see any conflict between his role as a Minister and as the chairman of this committee which will make recommendations to the government?

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Question 47-12(5): Conflict Re Minister Of Housing Corporation's Roles

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 64

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Gargan . Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Return To Question 47-12(5): Conflict Re Minister Of Housing Corporation's Roles

Question 47-12(5): Conflict Re Minister Of Housing Corporation's Roles

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 64

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. No.

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Question 47-12(5): Conflict Re Minister Of Housing Corporation's Roles

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 64

The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Gargan .

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Supplementary To Question 47-12(5): Conflict Re Minister Of Housing Corporation's Roles

Question 47-12(5): Conflict Re Minister Of Housing Corporation's Roles

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 64

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. After a period of time operating, many committees find their terms of reference need to be slightly revised. Members of the Advisory Committee on Social Housing are concerned that the committee is not as effective as it might be. Does the Minister agree that the terms of reference for the Advisory Committee on Social Housing should be revisited? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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Supplementary To Question 47-12(5): Conflict Re Minister Of Housing Corporation's Roles

Question 47-12(5): Conflict Re Minister Of Housing Corporation's Roles

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 64

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 47-12(5): Conflict Re Minister Of Housing Corporation's Roles

Question 47-12(5): Conflict Re Minister Of Housing Corporation's Roles

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 64

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I agree that the terms of reference of the advisory committee have to be revisited. We are still attempting to have a meeting of the advisory committee so that we can go over the terms of reference again and make recommendations to this House on how to change them. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 47-12(5): Conflict Re Minister Of Housing Corporation's Roles

Question 47-12(5): Conflict Re Minister Of Housing Corporation's Roles

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 64

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife North , Mr. Ballantyne .

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Question 48-12(5): Decision On Increase In Territorial Tobacco Tax

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 64

Michael Ballantyne

Yellowknife North

Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance or, perhaps, the Minister of Health . It would be appropriate for Mr. Pollard wearing either hat. I think Mr. Pollard was quoted in the media, saying that he is considering the possibility of raising our territorial tobacco taxes in order to replace lost revenue. I just wonder, has the Finance Minister made a decision, at this point, on whether or not he will raise territorial tobacco taxes to replace lost revenues? It would probably have a positive effect on the perversity factor and it would protect the health, especially of young people, of the Northwest Territories.

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Question 48-12(5): Decision On Increase In Territorial Tobacco Tax

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 64

The Speaker

Thank you. The Minister of Finance , Mr. Pollard .

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Return To Question 48-12(5): Decision On Increase In Territorial Tobacco Tax

Question 48-12(5): Decision On Increase In Territorial Tobacco Tax

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 64

John Pollard

Hay River

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, we find ourselves, geographically, in a very difficult situation because the extreme eastern part of the Northwest Territories is dependant on supplies from Quebec. The middle portion relies on Manitoba and, of course, we, in the west, either deal with BC in a small way or we deal with Alberta. We are getting trapped in the situation that Ontario finds itself in and that is, there is a jurisdiction, particularly in the east, that has lowered its taxes.

If I could just give you some idea, in Montreal the prices dropped from $47 a carton down to $22.73 a carton. Merchants in Iqaluit are already saying to me that I have to follow suit because the effect on them has been $62 down to $53.01 a carton in Iqaluit. They are saying that at $22.73 a carton in Montreal versus $53.01 a carton in Iqaluit, smuggling is going to be on the increase.

Having set the scene about the difficulty of the geography, certainly the western provinces have agreed, at the Health Ministers conference, that they were not going to follow the federal government's line. They also stated that they were somewhat annoyed at the federal Minister of Health for not fighting stronger to keep these taxes in place because there was going to be an increase in consumption of tobacco. That's been proven in the past.

Tomorrow, I will be talking to the RCMP, Madam Speaker, to discuss the problems of enforcing laws in the Northwest Territories in this regard. I will also be seeking the counsel of other jurisdictions in this area, the Yukon, BC, Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan -- I already know where Quebec is at -- to see what they're going to do. From that, I'll be able to advise Cabinet on a decision to make. Personally, I have been lobbied by two Members of this House that we should move into the federal tax room and keep tobacco taxes high in the Northwest Territories and, hopefully, keep consumption of cigarettes down. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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Return To Question 48-12(5): Decision On Increase In Territorial Tobacco Tax

Question 48-12(5): Decision On Increase In Territorial Tobacco Tax

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 64

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Pollard . Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Nahendeh , Mr. Antoine .

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Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 64

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Mahsi, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Housing and it is with regard to the proposed rental rate increase for public housing, and with regard to some of the answers we've heard in the House today. Presently, what is the rental rate structure? Is there a difference between the east and the west and, if so, what forms are the differences in? Mahsi

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Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Return To Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Back in 1983, when this policy was developed, home ownership communities and non-home ownership communities was how it was based. There were some communities in the Northwest Territories that were eligible for home ownership, so they had the cap removed from the rental structure.

Whereas, there were other communities, at that time, that were not eligible for home ownership. In 1993, all our communities are eligible for home ownership. So that's the biggest difference.

For an example, I'll use Tuktoyaktuk. If you make $75,000 a year, I think you pay approximately $1,600 a month rent, and the cost of living is the same as in Pangnirtung. However, if you live in Pangnirtung and you make $75,000 a year, your rent will be $275. That's the difference, so we're going to try to make that more fair and equal it out. Thank you.

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Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

The Speaker

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Antoine .

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Supplementary To Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Madam Speaker. From what I gather from what the Minister of Housing is saying, the idea is to equalize it by raising the rent and take the cap off in the east. Is that what the Minister is intending to do? Mahsi.

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Supplementary To Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The purpose of this is to make things fair throughout the Northwest Territories. For those people who can afford the rents, they should be paying rent. It will be proposed to the Advisory Committee on Housing, as well as to this House, before it's finalized.

We have some cases where, for example, in Iqaluit we have two members in one family who both work and make from $70,000 to $80,000 a year, for about $160,000 gross. They pay about $225 a month in rent. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Antoine .

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Supplementary To Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Minister of Housing also indicated that if we don't do this, increase the rent and stabilize and equalize the rent, then the federal government will take back the O and M money. What does the Minister mean by taking back the O and M money? Thank you.

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Supplementary To Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Further Return To Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I guess the way the agreement is with CMHC is that we collect rent and then we use that to fund our O and M. They are funding us right now for a certain portion of O and M money. If we do not increase the rents, we are currently getting $45 million a year from the federal government for O and M, they would take that money back from us and it can amount into the millions and millions of dollars a year. Thank you.

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Further Return To Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Question 49-12(5): Status Of Rental Rate Structure

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Baffin South , Mr. Pudlat .

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Question 50-12(5): Effect Of Rental Increases On Home Ownership Program

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

Kenoayoak Pudlat

Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Madam Speaker. Another question to the Minister of the Housing Corporation . Will the people who are under home ownership, who are in the process of owning their own home, be affected by the increase? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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Question 50-12(5): Effect Of Rental Increases On Home Ownership Program

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

The Speaker

Thank you. Minister of Housing , Mr. Morin .

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Return To Question 50-12(5): Effect Of Rental Increases On Home Ownership Program

Question 50-12(5): Effect Of Rental Increases On Home Ownership Program

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

Don Morin

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Speaker. No, it will not effect those people who are in the home ownership program. The pay-back will still be the same as it is, and it will encourage people who are living in public housing to move into home ownership housing. Then it would free up public housing for those lower income people who need it. Thank you.

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Question 50-12(5): Effect Of Rental Increases On Home Ownership Program

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

The Speaker

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Deh Cho , Mr. Gargan .

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Question 51-12(5): Conflict Of Minister Serving As Chairman Of Advisory Committee

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Again, to the Minister of Housing . When I asked the Minister about whether he might see a conflict by serving on the Advisory Committee on Social Housing and himself serving as the Minister, he said no. I understand that where there is a conflict is where you make, perhaps, financial gains. I would like to ask the Minister whether there is a conflict here when you make political gains.

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Question 51-12(5): Conflict Of Minister Serving As Chairman Of Advisory Committee

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Gargan . I would like to ask you to rephrase your question. A question should be asked to Ministers with respect to their particular responsibility, determining whether it's their responsibility. Political gains, as you phrased, seems to be somewhat unclear to the chair. Therefore, I would like to ask you to attempt to rephrase your question. Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Gargan .

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Question 51-12(5): Conflict Of Minister Serving As Chairman Of Advisory Committee

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 65

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The point I was

trying to make is that we have a situation in which the Minister is serving on a committee that is supposed to make recommendations to his department. I'm just wondering whether, by virtue of him serving on this committee, he is using the committee to make gains for his department, and whether that would constitute conflict.

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Question 51-12(5): Conflict Of Minister Serving As Chairman Of Advisory Committee

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 66

The Speaker

Mr. Gargan , with all due respect, the chair is of the opinion the question you are asking is not within the responsibility of the Minister of Housing . I believe you are asking an opinion of a Minister with regard to his responsibilities and I am somewhat concerned about the question you're posing. I would like to ask your indulgence, and respectfully ask you to somehow rephrase your question. Thank you.

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Question 51-12(5): Conflict Of Minister Serving As Chairman Of Advisory Committee

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 66

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I would like to address my question to the Minister of Housing . Has the Minister of Housing requested a legal opinion on whether or not serving on the advisory committee is in conflict with his department?

---Ruled Out Of Order

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Question 51-12(5): Conflict Of Minister Serving As Chairman Of Advisory Committee

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 66

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Gargan . I recognize your question is somewhat appropriate, but I believe it has been posed to the wrong Minister. Your question should be directed to the Minister of Justice . Ministers should not be asked questions of legal opinions. Therefore, I would like to ask you if you would be willing to pose the question to the Minister of Justice , with his particular responsibilities respecting the Minister of Housing . Thank you. Mr. Gargan .

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Question 52-12(5): Legal Opinion Re Conflict Of Minister Serving As Chairman Of Advisory Committee

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 66

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Justice with regard to a situation in which a Minister is serving on a board that perhaps might influence the direction his department would take. I would like to ask the Minister of Justice whether or not, by virtue of the Minister serving on the committee, he is in conflict, or whether the Minister can obtain an opinion on whether there is a conflict?

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Question 52-12(5): Legal Opinion Re Conflict Of Minister Serving As Chairman Of Advisory Committee

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 66

The Speaker

Thank you. The honourable Member for Sahtu , the Minister of Justice , Mr. Kakfwi .

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Question 52-12(5): Legal Opinion Re Conflict Of Minister Serving As Chairman Of Advisory Committee

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 66

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Madam Speaker, we will review the question. Thank you.

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