Debates of Nov. 27th, 1992

This is page numbers 171 - 191 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was chairman .

Topics

Members Present

Item 1: Prayer

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Resignation

Resignation Of Dennis Patterson

Western Constitutional Development

Dogrib Land Claim And Diamond Exploration

Cooperation Between Western And Nunavut Caucuses

Death Of An Elder In Sanikiluaq

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

D.p.w. Building In Gjoa Haven

Study On Rates Of N.W.T. Power Corporation

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Amendment To The Northwest Territories Act To Extend Term Of Legislatures

Bill 8: Payroll Tax Act

Bill 10:

An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94 And Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates

To Adopt Recommendation No. 28

To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

To Adopt Recommendation No. 30

To Adopt Recommendation 31

Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Item 21: Orders Of The Day

Members Present

Mr. Antoine , Mr. Arngna'naaq , Mr. James Arvaluk , Hon. Michael Ballantyne , Mr. Bernhardt , Hon. Nellie Cournoyea , Mr. Dent , Mr. Gargan , Hon. Stephen Kakfwi , Mr. Koe , Mr. Lewis , Mrs. Marie-Jewell , Ms. Mike , Hon. Don Morin , Mr. Nerysoo , Mr. Ningark , Mr. Dennis Patterson , Hon. John Pollard , Mr. Pudlat , Mr. Pudluk , Mr. Todd , Hon. Tony Whitford , Mr. Zoe

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---Prayer

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 171

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Good morning. Item 2, Ministers' Statements. Mr. Patterson .

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Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 171

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Mr. Speaker, I have an emergency statement.

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Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 171

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Proceed, Mr. Patterson .

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Minister's Statement 11-12(3): Resignation

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 171

Dennis Patterson

Iqaluit

Mr. Speaker, I have spent a sleepless night agonizing over the events of yesterday. I want to say to the Members of this House, especially Mr. Bernhardt and Mr. Pudlat , that it was inappropriate for me to send notes to M.L.A.s about a matter under discussion in the committee of the whole yesterday. I do realize that this could well be seen as threatening, although I want to say sincerely to Mr. Bernhardt and Mr. Pudlat and assure them that was not my intent. In fact it was I who felt threatened by the Standing Committee on Finance's actions.

Mr. Speaker, some Members may appreciate that I have been feeling quite a lot of pressure in this House with respect to my departmental responsibilities. That pressure has been affecting me and my family. I also did feel frustrated that, as a Minister, I had no way of speaking out for my constituents, either before the S.C.O.F. or in the Assembly on the matter of the Iqaluit museum.

Sending notes to M.L.A.s was the only way I could think of to allow the interests of my constituents to be known. However, Mr. Speaker, it was inappropriate and I regret having done so. So after much agonizing and consultation with my Cabinet colleagues, although this decision was my own, I have decided that the only honourable course for me is to resign immediately as a Member of the Executive Council.

I want to say that it has been a privilege and an honour for me to serve as a Member of the Executive Council since 1981. I want to thank the Honourable Nellie Cournoyea and my Cabinet colleagues in this 12th Assembly for their support and congeniality.

I also want to say thanks to the deputy ministers of Health and Social Services, David Kinloch and Blair Dunbar, their hard working staff, and the Chairs of the Workers' Compensation Board, Brian Roberts and John Hill, with whom I have worked, and their staff, for their hard work and support for me in the difficult issues that these portfolios and assignments have brought. I think we were making some progress and I very much regret having to let them down by stepping down.

I also want to thank my faithful and hard working Executive Assistant, Ernie Comerford, my secretary, Geela Qaqqasiq, for their hard work and, most of all, my wife and family who have been behind me all the way. I am grateful for that. They are my most important asset right now.

To my honourable colleagues in the Legislative Assembly, I would just ask that you allow me to participate in the activities on the other side of the House, as an equal. I do not have to be a psychologist to know that there are some hard feelings directed my way, but I hope I will have a chance to redeem myself and continue to participate in this Legislature, albeit in a different way from the one I am used to, to represent my constituents and also to consider the common good of all the people of the Northwest Territories.

I hope, Mr. Speaker, that this action on my part will end the spirit of rancour and animosity that I think has impaired the business of this House somewhat in the past year. I hope we can find ways to work together and show more goodwill than I have felt, at least, in my position on this side of the House. Mr. Speaker, I am taking the course of action that I think is appropriate and necessary and I hope that this explanation and expression of regret will end this matter. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Minister's Statement 11-12(3): Resignation

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 171

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Patterson . Item 2, Ministers' Statements. Ms. Cournoyea .

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Minister's Statement 11-12(3): Resignation

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 171

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I would like to give an emergency statement on the same matter.

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Minister's Statement 11-12(3): Resignation

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 171

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Please proceed, Ms. Cournoyea .

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Minister's Statement 12-12(3): Resignation Of Dennis Patterson

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 171

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say to the honourable Member, Mr. Dennis Patterson , that a lot of us have a great appreciation for the long years of service that he has offered to this House as Minister.

Over the last few days, three more important portfolios were assigned to him in a very difficult time. Many of us over the past years have had the privilege of operating a government that had a lot of money. The financial situation across Canada and in the Northwest Territories was much more elastic and allowed us to make many more mistakes and allowed additional resources to make up for some areas we might have missed. However, we are no longer in that situation and we are not alone.

I want to thank Mr. Patterson for accepting those difficult portfolios and doing an excellent job as a Minister. However, we all conclude that in this Legislative Assembly certain actions are inappropriate. We understand that and we have to judge according to those particular actions. What the Minister did was inappropriate, and it was unfortunate because I believe it reflected on a situation that was tenuous in the best of instances. I would like also to say that being a Cabinet Minister is a very important part of this Legislative Assembly and we all get attached to and concerned about the kind of job we do, as this Minister has done.

However, as I said before, it is unfortunate and it was an inappropriate action. I admire the honourable Member for taking an honourable stance and doing the right thing. Thank you.

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Minister's Statement 12-12(3): Resignation Of Dennis Patterson

Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 172

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 2, Ministers' Statements. Item 3, Members' Statements. Mr. Koe .

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Western Constitutional Development

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 172

Fred Koe

Inuvik

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, Members of the western Caucus met Wednesday evening with the Committee of Political Leaders to discuss constitutional development. We all agreed that in light of the 1999

schedule for division, western constitutional development has become a very important issue requiring M.L.A.s and political leaders to work together to ensure that a credible process is established to develop the Constitution for the west.

Western M.L.A.s and the Committee of Political Leaders are working on a common plan and budget for the next stage in this process which we hope to table in this House later in this session. It is also agreed, Mr. Speaker, that the transfer of more authority and responsibility to the communities can and must remain our immediate priorities, even as the work on territorial constitutions continues.

Members of the western caucus have asked me to affirm our continued strong support for the fast and effective implementation of the community transfer initiative in all regions of the Northwest Territories. One caveat on the initiative was registered by the President of the Metis Nation of the Northwest Territories, Mr. Gary Bohnet, who is concerned that the interest of the Metis may be overlooked in some communities or regions. We recommend that the government take into account the concern and aspirations of the Metis in communities when transfer agreements are being concluded.

Another issue is finding an acceptable definition of community. Several groups want the definition of community to include regions.

I want to thank the members of the Committee of political Leaders and the western caucus Members for realizing the need to work cooperatively on this vital issue. I expect that this is just the first of many such meetings over the coming months and I am confident that we can set a process...

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Western Constitutional Development

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 172

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Your allotted time has lapsed, Mr. Koe .

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Western Constitutional Development

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 172

Fred Koe

Inuvik

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

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Western Constitutional Development

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 172

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Koe .

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Western Constitutional Development

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 172

Fred Koe

Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I expect that this is just the first of many such meetings over the coming months, and I am confident that we can set a process in motion, which ultimately will result in political arrangements for a Constitution for a western territory which is acceptable to all of us. Mahsi Cho.

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Western Constitutional Development

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 172

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

I would like to take this opportunity to recognize in the gallery and to welcome to the Legislative Assembly, the newly elected Mayor of the town of Inuvik, Mr. Paul Komaromi.

--- Applause

Also, the Deputy Mayor, Mr. Tom Zubko.

--- Applause

Item 3, Members statements, Mr. Zoe .

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Dogrib Land Claim And Diamond Exploration

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 172

Henry Zoe

North Slave

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this past Monday morning on the local 7:30 a.m. C.B.C. News broadcast, there was a news item, in which the N.W.T. Chamber of Mines general manager, Tom Hoefer, expressed his worries that a Dogrib land claim might scare off potential diamond exploration investors. Mr. Speaker, the general manager of the Chamber of Mines said that while a land freeze could be put in place during claims negotiations, potential investors wanted to have a secure investment climate. Mr. Speaker, it does not take a PhD to read between the lines of Mr. Hoefer's statement.

I read his comments as the attempt to push the pro mining agenda into the arena of our upcoming land claims negotiation with the federal government. Mr. Speaker, I do not personally know the general manager of Chamber of Mines, Mr. Hoefer. However, from the public statements that he has made recently he does not strike me as a person who has views on native rights, and land rights that are in line with the mainstream thinking.

He seems to be, with all due respect, a relic of the past, a person who holds views towards native land rights of a time when a colonial government and business interests ruled over our land.

Mr. Speaker, the land being gobbled up by the diamond exploration interests is land which is under Treaty eleven, signed in 1921, for the Dene people. It is Dene land, and Mr. Hoefer and the mining interest on whose behalf he apparently speaks, should not try to threaten us. Mr. Speaker, the Dogrib people have not said very much to date concerning the use of our land by mining companies. We do want to cooperate with the mining industry and get in on the economic benefits. However, I give notice that we will no longer tolerate the colonial voices of the Hoefers of the world. Mr.

Speaker, it is our land, and if that means an insecure investment climate for Mr. Hoefer's friends then that is his problem, not ours.

---Applause

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Dogrib Land Claim And Diamond Exploration

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 173

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Zoe . Item 3, Members statements, Mr. Ningark .

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Cooperation Between Western And Nunavut Caucuses

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 173

John Ningark

Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to make a short statement as the chairman of the Nunavut Caucus. Mr. Speaker, the Nunavut Caucus has been meeting, dealing with and discussing the events that are taking place. We are more than pleased to be working with the western caucus. However, Mr. Speaker, we will be meeting with our partner, the T.F.N., shortly. Once we have met with the T.F.N., at the appropriate time and on behalf of the Nunavut Caucus, I will be making a Member's statement. I appreciate the cooperation that is coming from the western caucus.

We have a lot of things in common with the western caucus, such as transportation, and the economy of the N.W.T. I know we are going to have a very good working relationship. According to a statement made by the federal government some time ago, if the native people are not able to work together, then they are not ready to govern themselves. Mr. Speaker, I say we are able to work together and we will be able to work together in the future. We will progress as partners, because we are going to be living side by side and we have a lot of things in common. Thank you.

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Cooperation Between Western And Nunavut Caucuses

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 173

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 3, Members' statements, Mr. Pudluk .

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Death Of An Elder In Sanikiluaq

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 173

Kenoayoak Pudlat

Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I stand to apologize to my constituency. In one of my constituencies a person who was born in 1920, recently died of cancer. I do not have his name at this time, so I cannot mention his name. I wish to send my sincere condolences to his family; he has lived a long life. He used to hunt during the coldest months of winter and he helped a lot of people in Sanikiluaq, so I wish to extend my condolences to the people of Sanikiluaq. I also wish to tell my constituency that we can be given the strength to go forward.

Although our loved ones have departed from this earth, we all have strength from God. I am sorry to hear that person recently passed away. However, we will have to keep going in this day and age to work towards our future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Death Of An Elder In Sanikiluaq

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 173

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Pudlat . Item 3, Members' Statements. Item 4, Returns to Oral Questions. Mr. Whitford .

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Further Return To Question 68-12(3): Bill To Rescue Coast Guard

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 173

Tony Whitford

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Gargan on November 22, 1992 and it relates to a bill for rescuing the Coast Guard ship.

In response to the Member's question in the Legislative Assembly on November 23, 1992, I wish to advise that the Department of Transportation is not intending to bill the Coast Guard for services rendered on October 23, in connection with the grounding of the M. V. Eckaloo.

The M. V. Merv Hardie was absent from the ferry crossing at Dory Point for approximately seven and one half hours, and was successful in freeing the Eckaloo. Upon its return from the scene of the grounding, the backlog of traffic was approximately 20 trucks and 27 automobiles. That, Mr. Speaker, was cleared in a matter of two hours.

The cost of the rescue operation to the Government of the Northwest Territories, additional to the costs which would have been incurred by the ferry in normal operation, amounts to approximately $50 for additional fuel.

The cost of delay to motor traffic has not been calculated as sufficient information is not available. In fact, all local truckers, the radio stations, the Enterprise weigh scale and the ferry information phone tapes were alerted that there would be disruption of services. Most of the travellers were, therefore, able to adjust their schedules to allow for the disruption.

In this case it is not considered appropriate to send a bill to the Coast Guard. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Further Return To Question 68-12(3): Bill To Rescue Coast Guard

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 173

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 4, Returns to Oral Questions. Mr. Arvaluk .

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Return To Question 83-12(3): Evaluation Of Education System

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 173

James Arvaluk

Aivilik

I have a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Gargan on November 24, 1992 regarding the evaluation of education services.

The evaluation of aboriginal language courses differs from board to board. Where the language is being taught as a full-time subject, the evaluation covers all aspects of the curriculum. Children are tested by their teachers, not only for fluency in their language, but for competencies in all the appropriate curriculum skills. For example, a child taking social studies in Inuktitut will be tested in Inuktitut on what he or she has learned in social studies.

In boards where the language is taught as a second language, the children are tested on their ability to use the skills and vocabulary taught to them. The South Slave language is being taught as a second language from Kindergarten to grade nine in all schools in the Deh Cho region. For the specific evaluation techniques used by the Deh Cho Divisional Board of Education and DehGah School, parents should approach the principal directly.

At the high school level, each board has developed a challenge exam that is administered, usually by employees of the board's teaching and learning centres. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Return To Question 83-12(3): Evaluation Of Education System

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 173

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 4, Returns to Oral Questions. Before we go into the question period, I would like to read my ruling from yesterday.

Speaker's Ruling

Yesterday, the Honourable Stephen Kakfwi raised a Point of Order alleging the possibility that the honourable Member for the Mackenzie Delta , Richard Nerysoo , had called him a liar.

I wish first to indicate to all Members that it is often difficult for the Chair to determine immediately if a phrase used by a Member is unparliamentary. As indicated in Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, 6th edition, at citation 486(1), and I quote, "much depends on the tone, manner and the intention of the person speaking", end of quote. All of these factors must be viewed in the context of the general debate surrounding the alleged unparliamentary phrase. This particular incident is a good example of the difficulty the Chair sometimes has in isolating a specific unparliamentary phrase from the surrounding context of heated debate.

I have reviewed the unedited Hansard, and in particular, pages 444 to 446. Mr. Nerysoo 's exact words were, and I quote "I also want to indicate to the honourable Member before he gives the impression that I have had nothing to do with the Gwich'in self-government discussions, or for that matter, the development of the proposal that has been before the government is absolutely a lie," end of quote. Mr. Nerysoo did not call Mr. Kakfwi a liar or refer to anything he had said as a lie. However, Mr. Nerysoo did anticipate that the Minister would respond to his question with a response, which to him would be a lie.

It has always been unparliamentary to suggest that a Member has deliberately lied and deceived the House. Beauchesne's contains many citations to this effect. I refer Members to Beauchesne's 6th edition, citation 494, which states that, "it is not unparliamentary temperately to criticise statements made by Ministers as being contrary to the facts, but no imputation of intentional falsehood is permissible." Accordingly, the word "lie" would suggest an intentional deceit, which has always been ruled unparliamentary.

Furthermore, I rule that to anticipate an intentional deceit, a lie by a Member is also unparliamentary. The comment was almost assuredly made by Mr. Nerysoo in the heat of the debate and was most likely totally inadvertent. However, I feel that the implications contained in the use of the word "lie" cannot be accepted. Accordingly, I will ask Mr. Nerysoo to withdraw the word "lie."

In reviewing the unedited Hansard, however, I also note that the debate leading up to the unparliamentary language could have caused some degree of provocation. Mr. Kakfwi said, and I quote, "To suggest that I do not know what his constituency is saying is a bit irresponsible." Statements such as this can cause negative reactions. Debate in the House may become heated and Members may say things that, upon reflection, might have been phrased in a different way. I ask all Members to be careful and respectful of the other Members of this House when engaged in debate.

It is fundamental to the democratic process that all Members be able to share their different points of view in a reasonable and rational manner and that the dignity of that debate and of the Legislature always be respected and preserved.

Mr. Nerysoo .

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Return To Question 83-12(3): Evaluation Of Education System

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 174

Richard Nerysoo

Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, I would like to apologize to the House for the use of the word "lie." I apologize to the House, Mr. Zoe . If that is acceptable, Mr. Speaker.

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Return To Question 83-12(3): Evaluation Of Education System

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 174

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

If you could withdraw the word just for Hansard, I think that would be the proper course of action at this time, Mr. Nerysoo .

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Return To Question 83-12(3): Evaluation Of Education System

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 174

Richard Nerysoo

Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, I will not challenge your decision, but I am not clear on whether one should apologize to the House or one should withdraw. I have apologized for the use of the word, if there was any intention of suggesting that a Member was lying.

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Return To Question 83-12(3): Evaluation Of Education System

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 174

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

In this case, I would look at my ruling, Mr. Nerysoo . I think that because there were some subsequent words, I will read my ruling again.

The comment was almost assuredly made by Mr. Nerysoo in the heat of debate and was most likely totally inadvertent. However, I feel that the implications contained in the use of the word "lie" cannot be accepted. Accordingly, I will ask Mr. Nerysoo to withdraw the word "lie." Mr. Nerysoo .

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Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 174

Richard Nerysoo

Mackenzie Delta

No, Mr. Speaker, and you may name me.

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Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 174

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Nerysoo , in the spirit of cooperation in this House and my attempt to be fair in my ruling, and my attempt to state a point that it is not in the best interest of this House that the word "lie" be used. I had asked in what I thought was a fair and reasonable way, Mr. Nerysoo , if you would consider withdrawing the word "lie." I do very much appreciate your apology but because of the way the ruling was constructed, it would be much appreciated, Mr. Nerysoo , if you would reconsider.

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Return To Question 83-12(3): Evaluation Of Education System

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 174

Richard Nerysoo

Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, I accept and will withdraw the word "lie." However, I do suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the honourable Member also apologize for suggesting that I have been an irresponsible Member.

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Return To Question 83-12(3): Evaluation Of Education System

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 174

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Because there was not a formal point of order, I cannot order that the Member do that, but in the interest again of reaching harmony in the House, I will ask Mr. Kakfwi if he would consider that request.

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Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 174

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I do not have the Hansard in front of me, but I take back the comments which led me to think that the Member was being irresponsible yesterday. Thank you.

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Return To Question 83-12(3): Evaluation Of Education System

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Item 4: Returns To Oral Questions

Page 174

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you very much, Mr. Kakfwi . I do appreciate both Members reaching this compromise. I think it is in the best interest of the House. Item 5, Oral Questions. Mr. Ningark .

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Question 122-12(3): D.p.w. Building In Gjoa Haven

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 174

John Ningark

Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Premier regarding the D.P.W. building in Gjoa Haven which I asked about earlier this week. Given that the carvers of community of Gjoa Haven need that building, and want outright ownership of the building, I wonder if the Cabinet has made a decision as to the fate of that building? Has the Cabinet made a decision to give this building to the community of Gjoa

Haven? By the community, I mean the carvers' group in Gjoa Haven. Thank you.

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Question 122-12(3): D.p.w. Building In Gjoa Haven

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 175

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Madam Premier .

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Question 122-12(3): D.p.w. Building In Gjoa Haven

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 175

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have discussed the issue with the Minister responsible for the Department of Public Works and we are well on our way to making a decision on that, but we have not brought it to the Cabinet. The Member will note that, the Minister has been away for the last few days. We will see to the matter as soon as possible. Thank you.

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Question 122-12(3): D.p.w. Building In Gjoa Haven

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 175

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Thank you. I would like to take this opportunity to recognize in the gallery, Ms. Cece McCauley, who is the Honorary Chief of the Inuvik Native Band.

---Applause

Item 5, Oral Questions. Mr. Pudlat .

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Question 122-12(3): D.p.w. Building In Gjoa Haven

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 175

Kenoayoak Pudlat

Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources . This fall, the Minister replied that she would be able to respond to my question with regard to the report of N.W.T. Power Corporation.

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Question 122-12(3): D.p.w. Building In Gjoa Haven

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 175

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Ms. Cournoyea .

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Question 122-12(3): D.p.w. Building In Gjoa Haven

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 175

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I do not think the Member's question was concluded and I would like him to further clarify which issue on the Power Corporation he is talking about.

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Question 122-12(3): D.p.w. Building In Gjoa Haven

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 175

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Pudlat , would you like to clarify that question?

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Question 123-12(3): Study On Rates Of N.W.T. Power Corporation

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 175

Kenoayoak Pudlat

Baffin South

(Translation) This fall I brought up a concern of my constituents, regarding the electricity rates. The Minister for Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources had requested a review of these rates in the north. She had also responded to me in September and indicated that the review would be available. Would the Minister indicate whether or not the review is going to be available during this session? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 123-12(3): Study On Rates Of N.W.T. Power Corporation

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 175

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Ms. Cournoyea .

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Return To Question 123-12(3): Study On Rates Of N.w.t. Power Corporation

Question 123-12(3): Study On Rates Of N.W.T. Power Corporation

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 175

Nellie Cournoyea

Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, yes, we can supply that information.

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Return To Question 123-12(3): Study On Rates Of N.w.t. Power Corporation

Question 123-12(3): Study On Rates Of N.W.T. Power Corporation

Item 5: Oral Questions

Page 175

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 5, Oral Questions. Item 6, Written Questions. Item 7, Returns to Written Questions. Item 8, Replies to Opening Address. Item 9, Petitions. Item 10, Reports of Standing and Special Committees. Item 11, Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills. Item 12, Tabling of Documents. Mr. Kakfwi .

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Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 175

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two documents which I would like to table. The first one is Tabled Document 18-12(3), the Community Transfer Initiative Implementation Plan. The second is Tabled Document 19-12(3), the 1992 Master Plan for the Corrections Service Division. Thank you.

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Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 175

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Item 12, Tabling of Documents. Item 13, Notices of Motion. Item 14, Notices of Motions for First Reading of Bills. Item 15, Motions. Mr. Lewis .

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Motion 3-12(3): Amendment To The Northwest Territories Act To Extend Term Of Legislatures

Item 15: Motions

Page 175

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

WHEREAS, the term of the Northwest Territories Legislative Assembly is prescribed by the Northwest Territories Act (Canada);

AND

WHEREAS, the Northwest Territories Act stipulates that the term of a Legislative Assembly in the Northwest Territories is four years;

AND

WHEREAS, the Constitution Act 1982 provides that the maximum term for the House of Commons and all provincial Legislative Assemblies should not extend beyond five years;

AND

WHEREAS, all Legislatures in Canada with the exception of the Northwest Territories and Yukon Legislative Assemblies have a maximum of five years and an election can be called at any time within that time frame;

AND

WHEREAS, any Legislature should have a term of office that enables that Legislature to fully implement and carry out its decisions;

AND

WHEREAS, a fixed term of four years does not permit an Assembly or government sufficient flexibility to address successfully the concerns of the residents of the Northwest Territories;

AND

WHEREAS, the present term of the Legislative Assembly requires an election to be held in mid-winter;

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Motion 3-12(3): Amendment To The Northwest Territories Act To Extend Term Of Legislatures

Item 15: Motions

Page 176

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

The motion is in order, Mr. Lewis . To the motion. Mr. Lewis .

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Motion 3-12(3): Amendment To The Northwest Territories Act To Extend Term Of Legislatures

Item 15: Motions

Page 176

Brian Lewis

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It has become very clear to us that the inflexibility that we currently have to endure places tremendous burdens on any new government which is elected. When we have a fixed term and we have an October or November election, there is no time to put together a budget to present to this House so we can pursue what I consider to be the proper course of having a budget on capital in the fall, and an O & M budget in the winter, so the proper planning can take place.

In order to allow this Assembly to phase itself into a proper budget cycle, proper planning and a proper government agenda, we should be given the kind of flexibility that other legislatures have. I realize that our system is quite different from the system that exists in southern Canada, where, at any time, a leader who is unsure or would like to test his mandate, can just ask the Lieutenant Governor to go immediately to the people for a renewed mandate. In our system what I would propose, Mr.

Speaker, through this motion, is that instead of having that power in the hands of a leader, we would decide simply by a vote of this Assembly to ask the Commissioner to dissolve us, so we could go to the people. That is really the intent of this motion, Mr. Speaker.

My own preference would be to have a spring election because that makes sense in terms of the new kind of government planning that is in place. We have endured a very difficult year in which we have had to go through several budget processes in order to achieve the objectives of the government. I believe it is one of the reasons why our own government appears to be, from time to time, in disarray. I have thought about this quite a bit. Why is it that we continually wonder what the agenda is, what the program is, and so on.

I see the problem as being one of having sufficient flexibility in order to plan the agenda properly, instead of having to start from scratch and build a budget, two of them over a short period of time, which means we have to wait one whole year before the government can really get on track. This frustrated me a lot this past year. For that reason I decided this was the time to make another step in constitutional development, so that we would no longer have to go to Ottawa with our cap in our hand, asking the Minister of Indian Affairs if it is all right to do this or all right to do that.

We should have the power ourselves, at least to ask the Commissioner as a federal representative like a Lieutenant Governor to dissolve so we can go to the people. My own personal preference would be to have an earlier election in the spring of 1995 instead of the fall of 1995. If the Members feel that we should just leave it and wait to see what kind of agenda is forthcoming and what kind of programs need to be fully fleshed out and implemented, then it will be up to the House to decide. However, we should have that kind of flexibility, Mr. Speaker.

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Motion 3-12(3): Amendment To The Northwest Territories Act To Extend Term Of Legislatures

Item 15: Motions

Page 176

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Seconder, Mr. Pollard .

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Motion 3-12(3): Amendment To The Northwest Territories Act To Extend Term Of Legislatures

Item 15: Motions

Page 176

An Hon. Member

Question.

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Motion 3-12(3): Amendment To The Northwest Territories Act To Extend Term Of Legislatures

Item 15: Motions

Page 176

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Question has been called. The mover has the opportunity to conclude debate. Mr. Lewis .

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Motion 3-12(3): Amendment To The Northwest Territories Act To Extend Term Of Legislatures

Item 15: Motions

Page 176

An Hon. Member

Question.

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Motion 3-12(3): Amendment To The Northwest Territories Act To Extend Term Of Legislatures

Item 15: Motions

Page 176

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 16, First Reading of Bills. Mr. Pollard .

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Bill 8: Payroll Tax Act

Item 16: First Reading Of Bills

Page 176

John Pollard

Hay River

Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Nunakput , that Bill 8, Payroll Tax Act , be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Bill 8: Payroll Tax Act

Item 16: First Reading Of Bills

Page 176

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

Your motion is in order, Mr. Pollard . All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 8 has had first reading. Item 16, First Reading of Bills. Mr. Pollard .

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Bill 10:

An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act

Item 16: First Reading Of Bills

Page 176

John Pollard

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Aivilik , that Bill 10,

An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act , be read for the first time. Thank you.

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Bill 10:

An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act

Item 16: First Reading Of Bills

Page 176

The Speaker

Michael Ballantyne

The motion is in order, Mr. Pollard . All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 10 has had first reading. Item 17, Second Reading of Bills. Item 18, Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters: Committee Report 1-12(3), Standing Committee on Finance Report on the Review of the 1993-94 Capital Estimates, and Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94 with Mr. Ningark in the Chair.

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 176

The Chair

John Ningark

I thank you for your attention. The committee will now come to order. Yesterday we discussed the Education, Culture and Employment Programs budget. We were on Bill 1 and Committee Report 1-12(3) when we concluded yesterday. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Todd .

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 176

John Todd

Keewatin Central

Thank you. Mr. Chairman, we will proceed with Economic Development if we can.

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 176

The Chair

John Ningark

Does the committee agree that we deal with the Department of Economic Development 1993-94 Capital Estimates?

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Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 176

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94 And Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 177

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. It has been a long morning. We will take a 15 minute break and come back.

---SHORT BREAK

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Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94 And Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 177

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. I think we had a good break and the committee will now come to order. There was a suggestion on the floor that we deal with the Department of Economic Development and Tourism. That is on page 15-11 of the 1993-94 Capital Estimates. Mr. Minister do you have opening remarks for the committee? Thank you.

Department Of Economic Development And Tourism, Introductory Remarks

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Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94 And Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 177

John Pollard

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the 1993-94 capital budget of the Department of Economic Development and Tourism is divided into two areas: tourism, including parks and visitors' centres; and the development corporation. I will deal with visitors' centres first, Mr. Chairman.

Through the 1993-94 capital plan, the department will finish the visitors' centre in Dawson City and begin construction of a regional centre in Inuvik. These two complementary facilities will increase the quantity, and improve the quality, of tourism information throughout the western Arctic.

The early summer of 1993 will also see the opening of the visitors' centre in Arviat.

In the parks area, Mr. Chairman, the funds provided in the capital plan will put the finishing touches on Blackstone, Saamba Deh, Lady Evelyn and Fred Henne Parks. Major renovations are planned for the Hay River Park and the Happy Valley campground in Inuvik. Once improved, it is anticipated that these two parks will be well-used each summer.

In some parks, Mr. Chairman, the main attractions are historical resources. The parks planned for the Meliadine River near Rankin Inlet and the Whaling Era buildings in Pangnirtung are projects through which people can come to understand and appreciate the north's rich history.

The two largest park initiatives in the capital plan are Katannilik, and Twin Falls. Katannilik Park includes the Soper River and the valley adjacent to Lake Harbour. Katannilik Park will especially appeal to hikers and canoeists who are seeking some of the fine Arctic scenery the north has to offer. Twin Falls Park is a consolidation of small, older highway parks on Highway No. 1, "the waterfalls route" near the Alberta border. This improved park will link Alexandra and Louise Falls by a scenic cliff side hiking trail.

Other types of facilities included in the capital plan are: roadside pull-offs; scenic look-outs; interpretive signs; and basic information signage to maintain the interest and diversion of visitors along the way.

Projects under the highway corridor development category include picnic areas and boat launch sites along the Ingraham Trail; improved highway signs along the Liard highway and the N.W.T. border, and the expansion of the highway route marker program along the highway to Fort Providence.

Tourism signage projects will be completed in Coppermine and Tuktoyaktuk, and new signs and outdoor displays will be developed in Cambridge Bay, Fort McPherson and Cape Dorset.

Last year, Mr. Chairman, the Standing Committee on Finance asked the department to provide more detail about the economic benefits resulting from our capital investments. During the development and construction phases alone, the projects proposed for 1993-94 are estimated to create 44 person years of local employment, which equates to 166 seasonal jobs. The data does not reflect the additional employment opportunities created because facilities are improved, consequently attracting more visitors for even longer periods of time.

Mr. Chairman, with regard to the N.W.T. Development Corporation, the corporation operates at arm's length from the department, and establishes its capital plan through an annual corporate plan.

Due to this status, it does not appear in the department's capital plan as a series of separate projects but rather as one

summary budget.

The N.W.T. Development Corporation has a mandate to invest primarily for the benefit of lesser developed communities. This year it will invest some six million dollars toward the development of business opportunities. Those businesses are typically community-based with local boards playing a major role in their continued operation.

The development corporation is founded on the principle that increased local ownership and participation will lead to increased business success.

Mr. Chairman, in the first 18 months of operation, the Northwest Territories Development Corporation board of directors approved some $10.5 million in capital investments in 11 development corporation majority owned businesses, $1.2 million in eight pilot projects, and $4.1 million as a minority partner in nine joint ventures with N.W.T. entrepreneurs. In addition, the corporation will provide $1.8 million in operating subsidies to its majority owned business for the prior and current fiscal years.

Over the coming months, the development corporation will place emphasis on improving the management and support systems for its various ventures, increasing the productivity of its businesses, and seeking out joint venture opportunities, especially in lesser developed communities where it is not now present.

Time is required to refine its corporate strategy, communicate its mission more broadly, and increase community awareness of its programs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I respectfully request the inclusion of witnesses as we go through the budget. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94 And Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 178

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I will call two witnesses to come forward at the appropriate time, but in the order of the committee's procedure, I will ask the Standing Committee on Finance to make a presentation, if there is a presentation to be made, Mr. Dent .

Standing Committee On Finance Comments

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Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94 And Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 178

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Standing Committee on Finance has some comments and recommendations that it would like to make to this committee. The first has to do with the benefits of economic development and tourism projects.

Mr. Chairman, during the review of the 1992-93 Capital Estimates the standing committee recommended that the Cabinet reexamine economic development and tourism priorities from a cost and benefit viewpoint, and in light of other fundamental needs. The government's stock response was that it already does. Quite frankly, this response is unsatisfactory.

For example, Mr. Chairman, the three page project substantiation sheet for the Katannilik Park investment of $1.276 million concludes with a weak analysis of benefits. Nowhere is there a statement of how many people currently visit the park, how many people are expected to visit the park after this investment, or of the expected economic spin-off and indeed, whether this investment will make any economic difference whatsoever. If we are not expected to get some worthwhile economic or social benefit, proportional to the cost, why spend $1.2 million dollars?

Mr. Chairman, we have to believe that this department does not develop plans and strategies to achieve its capital program objectives in the most cost beneficial manner, and that it does not consider which projects will yield the highest level of social and economic benefits. If it did, it would have told us.

The Standing Committee on Finance has repeatedly told this government and most departments that we want to know what the long-range plan is and see projects justified. We do not want to continue to see examples of questionable economic development projects coming forward. It is Cabinet's job to catch these items before they get to the Assembly.

Mr. Chairman, I am moving to the first recommendation from the committee. During the review of the 1992-93 Capital Estimates, the standing committee recommended that the Department of Culture and Communications integrate cultural facilities with other capital projects to achieve economy of scale. That department informed the committee that discussions of economic development and tourism ceased after problems arose. There is a fine line between tourism projects and cultural projects in many instances.

For example, the Department of Economic Development budgets $1.2 million for the Fort Smith Bishop's Residence Historical Park, while the Department of Culture budgets $378,000 for Our Lady of Good Hope church in Fort Good Hope. Members of the standing committee believe that these two departments must work together to ensure a consistent and economical approach to tourism and cultural projects which are complementary.

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Committee Motion 28-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 28

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 178

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I move that this committee recommend that the government, through the Department of Economic Development and Tourism and through Education, Culture and Employment Programs, integrate tourism and cultural facilities, such as museums, visitors' centres and tourist offices in order for construction and operation to be done in a more economical matter.

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Committee Motion 28-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 28

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 178

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Dent . The motion is in order. To the motion.

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Committee Motion 28-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 28

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 178

An Hon. Member

Question.

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Committee Motion 28-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 28

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 178

The Chair

John Ningark

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Proceed, Mr. Dent .

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Committee Motion 28-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 28

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 178

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have one other recommendation for this department, and it has to do with fisheries. The committee is concerned about the development of the fisheries and fish processing in the Northwest Territories. The committee is of the opinion that the Department of Economic Development and Tourism should develop a long-term plan for the development of the fishing industry in the Northwest Territories, including a review of all existing fish plants, so that more of the fish caught in the Northwest Territories can be processed in the N.W.T.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 178

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I move that this committee recommends that the Department of Economic Development and Tourism develop a long-term plan for the fisheries industry in the Northwest Territories, including examining the feasibility of increasing the processing capacity of existing fish plants.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 178

The Chair

John Ningark

The motion is in order. To the motion.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 178

An Hon. Member

Question.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 178

The Chair

John Ningark

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Mr. Dent .

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 178

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, that concludes the Standing Committee on Finance's comments on the Department of Economic Development and Tourism.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 178

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. I will now seek the concurrence of this committee for the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism to bring in his witnesses. Agreed?

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 178

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 179

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, would you escort the witnesses. Mr. Minister, welcome to the committee. For the record, Mr. Minister, can you please introduce your witnesses.

Department Of Economic Development And Tourism

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 179

John Pollard

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have Mr. Roland Bailey the Deputy Minister of Economic Development and Tourism and also Mr. Jim Kennedy, who is the Director of Finance for Economic Development and Tourism. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 179

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. We are now into the general comments by Members of this committee. General comments for the Economic Development and Tourism budget? Mr. Antoine .

General Comments

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 179

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I noticed that in the past, when different parks were developed for the Fort Smith region, for example, Saamba Deh Falls Park, Twin Falls Gorge Park or Lady Evelyn Falls Park, they were in the capital estimates under "certain communities", but now they are listed under various Fort Smith. Does this mean that all these parks are controlled out of the Fort Smith office? Thank you.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 179

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 179

John Pollard

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, no, it does not mean that they are all controlled out of one area. There is consultation with the closest community but it is efficient to coordinate those activities by route and so there are some areas that are maintained by the central agency. Consultation is still done at the community level. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 179

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Antoine .

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 179

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you. The Blackstone Park is close to Nahanni Butte. Over the years quite a substantial amount of money has been spent to develop this park. The community of Nahanni Butte has indicated to me that it has seen very little in terms of income from it. It is very close to the traditional area of the people who live there. A small community such as Nahanni Butte, with this opportunity being so close to its traditional area, should benefit from the opportunity as much as it can. I know that millions of dollars have been poured into this area.

At the same time the Nahanni National Park, which is not in our jurisdiction, has also received millions of dollars. A lot of money has been poured into these areas. The community was totally neglected. I would like to suggest that the Department of Economic and Tourism concentrate more in the smaller communities, such as Nahanni Butte, Trout Lake, Jean Marie River and Liard. It seems to me that these smaller communities have been neglected.

I would like to stress to the Minister and his departmental officials, if the priority could be shifted to focus on the smaller communities, especially if there is a large amount of development happening close to them. We should do whatever we can to make sure that the people and the community benefit from these developments. This would help the community in the long run. Thank you.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 179

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. In order to accommodate the

interpretations provided to this House, I will pause momentarily at the end of each speaker's statement. Mr. Minister.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 179

John Pollard

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the point is taken. We will have somebody from parks go into Nahanni Butte and consult with the community and find out what the problem is. Thank you.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 179

The Chair

John Ningark

General comments? We will now go detail by detail. Mr. Gargan .

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 179

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, over the next few years with substantial improvement to the highway systems, we anticipate that a large number of tourists will be travelling to Yellowknife on the Mackenzie Highway. We do not have much in the way of signage. For example, we do not have any signage with regard to the Mackenzie River. Even though people cross it, I am not sure if they know it is the beginning of the Mackenzie River. I think there should be a sign along the river somewhere between Providence and the ferry landing that explains the history of how the river got its name, and what the aboriginal people call it. I think all this information should be provided for tourists.

The Mackenzie River is a scenic area and we do not have anywhere for tourists to stop to take a look around. I would like to have something like this put in place. Tourism still carries on during the winter crossing, garbage is left behind, and sewage is still being dumped. I have expressed this concern many times before and I am still not happy with the way things are carried out in that area. The Minister and his department should be looking a few years ahead, because we expect the highway to Rae-Edzo to be completed by 1997. With this I would think that the volume of traffic would increase and I think we should have more to offer to tourists travelling on our roads.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 179

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Gargan . We are in the area of general comments. Mr. Zoe .

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 179

Henry Zoe

North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would tell the Minister responsible for Economic Development and Tourism that there is a high unemployment rate and many people are on social assistance in the North Slave region, which I represent. I am sure the Minister will recall the number of times I have mentioned in the House the statistics from my region. As a Minister I think he needs to convey the reality to his Cabinet colleagues in order to develop or enhance the economy of my region. They need to cooperate with the Minister with regard to economic development.

Mr. Chairman, I always stress the importance of transportation infrastructure. I think this Minister must convey the strong message to the Cabinet that without the key element of transportation infrastructure such as roads, wharfs and airports, the economy will not grow. I am sure the Minister has heard me speak about this. Mr. Chairman, as the lead Minister for economic development in the territories, the Minister must strongly convey to the Cabinet, and to some individual Ministers that, in order to make some regions reach a better economy, they will have to assist them as much as they can, in terms of capital contracts or general government contracts.

Mr. Chairman, the private sector has been doing as much as it can to enhance the economy in my region. As you know, I usually indicate that other than our region as the worst economic region, there is the Kitikmeot. This government, particularly the Minister who is responsible for economic development, has to convey strongly to the Cabinet and his colleagues that these two regions have to be looked at. It is unfortunate that the Minister who has the responsibility of economic development has not emphasized strongly to his Cabinet the need for decentralization.

I was surprised because in promoting economic development and trying to better various regions and help the territories as a whole to prosper, the Minister has overlooked the two worst regions. He has not conveyed to his colleagues on the Executive that there is a need in those two regions for economic development.

Mr. Chairman, this particular Minister has the capabilities of making his colleagues understand the complex issues of the various regions, and he knows what is happening across the territories. His staff monitors everything, or I hope they do. With all the information that his staff collects, this Minister is the key Minister for enhancing the local and regional economy of all areas of the territories. Mr. Chairman, my region is disadvantaged. It has been disadvantaged for years. It is trying its best to catch up with the other regions.

I realize the Minister is trying to assist us but I feel that more of an effort needs to come from this lead Minister. I think he must send a strong message to his colleagues that the policy of enhancement of the disadvantaged communities and regions has to be adhered to.

Mr. Chairman, over the last number of years in this House, I have been advocating this. We have been moving along slowly and trying to catch up. I think this is not enough. Surely we can do a little bit more for the communities which are disadvantaged. I hope that the Minister will seriously consider what I have said. Mahsi.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 180

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Zoe . Mr. Minister, do you have any comments with regard to the general comments made by the honourable Member, Mr. Zoe ?

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 180

John Pollard

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there are many disadvantaged areas in the Northwest Territories, as the Members of this House know. We have to be seen to be fair to all areas of the Northwest Territories. I sympathize with what Mr. Zoe is saying, but I would point out to him that it was just recently that the Department of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources came to an agreement through the N.W.T. Power Corporation with the Dogrib Nation with regard to building two hydro sites in the Dogrib area. I do not want this House to think that we have not been doing anything for the Dogrib Nation.

I was at a meeting, as was Mr. Zoe not too long ago, where there was a question from a company that the Dogrib people are doing business with, that if that company was in partnership with the Dogrib Nation whether we would consider having them build a road in this area, and then leasing it back from them. They were given the green light to make a presentation to us, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this government has intervened to make sure that the Dogrib company got a helicopter contract with Renewable Resources. So I do not want anyone here to think that we are not doing anything in that particular area.

We will assist all areas of the Northwest Territories, Mr. Chairman. I could point out that I know the Kitikmeot is having problems as well, but I could also say that the Deh Cho is having problems with its economy. I just want to say that I hear the Member's comments, I understand what he is talking about, but we must be seen as being fair to everybody and trying to bring everyone along at the same time and let them build on their natural interests and attributes in their particular area. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 180

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. I have Mr. Pudlat , and then Mr. Gargan . Mr. Pudlat .

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 180

Kenoayoak Pudlat

Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I was able to go to my community with the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism and I was very happy about that. I am sorry that we were stuck in a vehicle. We were trying to push the vehicle for about an hour when we were stuck. I would like to express my gratitude to the Department of Economic Development and the Standing Committee on Finance. The new park, which has been in place since August, is a very scenic place in both winter and summer. People are using that park already. I am sure this is going to be very beneficial to the communities.

There are some people who are trying to find jobs. We have to work hard to bring the programs for parks in place to help our people. If we start putting these kinds of programs in place we can start having some jobs available to our people. We are still trying to make these kinds of programs available to Cape Dorset. We do not want to be on social assistance, we want to develop programs so we can have jobs available to our people. The people in my constituency are not the only ones who are on welfare assistance.

By working together with our government, the Minister, the Cabinet and ordinary M.L.A.s, we can start moving forward. Since we have just voted on the N.W.T. Nunavut ratification, we are going to start looking toward our future to see what we have to do and what priorities we have to set. We have to look at our young people who drop out of school. We know that there are people who have certificates and qualifications for certain kinds of jobs, but it would be so much better today if we could look at other people who are disadvantaged, compared to the people who have certificates and qualifications.

If we look at those people we can start to move forward. I would like to work closely with the Department of Economic Development and Tourism. If I was just on welfare assistance, I would not be moving forward at all. There are people who will get married and have children, and they are going to have to have some money to move forward in their lives. I would like to start working with the department to try to make economic development work in our communities. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 180

The Chair

John Ningark

Qujannamiik, Mr. Pudlat . Mr. Pollard .

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 180

John Pollard

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, it was embarrassing getting stuck in that vehicle. At one point we considered calling D.P.W. to tow us out, but we were afraid of what Mr. Morin would charge us.

---Laughter

I appreciated visiting the Member's community. There seems to be a great deal of interest in the park. There is already a proposal by the Co-op to expand to accommodate visitors. There is also a private sector person who is interested in building a facility in the park in conjunction with the community with them being shareholders in the project. There is also a great deal of interest in the park this year, and a number of trips into it have been booked at this early stage of its development. So we are pleased with the way it is going. We are also pleased with the community support. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Minister. The economy is so slow today that getting stuck seems to be the trend. Mr. Gargan .

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I agree completely with the Minister of Economic Development when he suggests that we have to be perceived as being as fair and responsible to all the regions. One initiative that the Minister has taken with regard to incubator malls. I think it is being restricted to your region, so that only one committee could be selected from each region for that initiative. I would like to say that it should be open to all the communities. If the communities feel that an incubator mall is justified for their community, then they should be given the opportunity to develop that.

Also, Mr. Chairman, I have a concern about the Business Credit Corporation. It is a corporation that gives out money for business development, to make approvals with regard to business ventures, but that board has not been in existence for some time now. The Minister did not indicate that he would like to have Members suggest things by the tenth and that he would be doing the selection before the end of month. I would like to ask the Minister whether he has received nominations for selection to the board and whether he anticipates that the board will be functioning by the end of this month, as he stated?

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Gargan . Mr. Minister.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

John Pollard

Hay River

Yes, Mr. Chairman, the board will be functional next week.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Gargan .

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Just one other thing, Mr. Chairman. Several months ago the Minister indicated, with regard to the Patterson Sawmill, that a business plan would be developed so that in three or four years the corporation would be profitable. I would just like to ask the Minister whether this plan is in place now.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

John Pollard

Hay River

Yes, there is a business plan in place for the Patterson Sawmill, Mr. Chairman.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Member for Deh Cho .

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

How is the Patterson Sawmill doing now that it has been in operation for about six months? Is it doing all right and can the Minister provide me with the business plan that he was referring to?

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Minister of Economic Development and Tourism .

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

John Pollard

Hay River

Mr. Chairman, the Patterson Sawmill is not doing badly, although it is not getting as much product out of the trees as we had hoped. We are looking at some new technology, perhaps some narrow curve saws. The cost of production per thousand is still a little too high for us. However, as we up the volume that is going through there, we anticipate that the cost will come down. If we can get a greater percentage of finished wood out of the logs with some new technology, then we hope that the mill will be profitable.

I should explain to the House that there has been a verbal inquiry as to whether we should sell Patterson Sawmill and that is being looked at right now, Mr. Chairman.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. We are in general comments. Mr. Nerysoo .

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

Richard Nerysoo

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just would like to make a couple of comments in this particular area. First of all, I just want to say that we have been quite successful in the Inuvik region and have been receiving probably more traffic than most other regions in terms of tourism. I do not mean total numbers, but people actually using the highway system. I know that there does not seem to be a great deal of commitment financially to address the possibility of putting more dollars into the Inuvik area, either in terms of improving the highway or looking at infrastructure that could accommodate the tourist industry.

I am not so keen, Mr. Chairman, to have this government necessarily spend capital dollars as opposed to assist the possibilities of the community providing the necessary financial arrangements for community investment, or private investment in these kinds of facilities. I would still ask the Department of Transportation to respond to the development of the highway system, so that it does at least meet the standard that is set in the Yukon. I am talking about the Dempster Highway in this case. I am not talking about all of the paved highway between Dawson and the border or into British Columbia or into Alaska.

I am more concerned about making sure that we meet the needs of the tourist industry and the tourists, and this allows for new dollars to move into the economy of the Northwest Territories.

I wanted to ask the government to consider how we might be able to deal with the matter of trade with Alaska, or business relationships with Alaska, leading us closer to the Pacific rim countries. We always seem to focus on going through British Columbia or going through Alberta to meet those potential trade relationships, but we never look at trying to deal with Alaska. In fact, it is closer in many respects to the Pacific rim and the Soviet market. I hope that we are looking at addressing those particular matters in the context of capital expenditures.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 181

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 182

John Pollard

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Member is indeed correct, the number of visitors to the Delta is increasing, and we are encouraged by that. As the Banks Island Park comes into being, there will be more people passing through the Delta on their way up to Banks Island. So many people go to Inuvik and then go on to Tuktoyaktuk, so we are having, in spite of ourselves sometimes, some success in that area. I will take into consideration the Member's comments.

This year 25 per cent of our budget will be spent in the Inuvik region. For the total capital projections, more than 50 per cent will be spent in the Inuvik region.

With regard to the trade with Alaska, Northern Transportation Company Limited was trying to get into the supply business in Alaska, but ran into some insurance problems with barges and double-hulled barges, etc. There has been some attempt by Northern Transportation to start some trade with Alaska. If the Member's constituents feel that it is something we should be investigating further we would be glad to do that, Mr. Chairman.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 182

The Chair

John Ningark

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Koe .

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 182

Fred Koe

Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It would be remiss if I did not follow-up on those comments by my colleague and the response of the Minister. The areas in the north western part of the territories: the Beaufort, Delta, and Sahtu regions, have had a history of various boom-cycles, such as the construction of the D.E.W. line sites, the construction of the Town of Inuvik in the mid-1950s, the large amounts of money and wages which were earned by people working in the oil and gas exploration phases in the 1980s, and the construction of the Norman Wells pipeline in the mid-1980s.

Subsequently, each of these have been followed by periods of inactivity. There is no activity today and people who have been used to working have, in many cases, learned trades, and who have a wealth of knowledge and experience to bring to these types of projects, now have a lot of time on their hands. We have followed that up lately with the land claims, and my colleague mentioned that the groups who have successfully negotiated land claims are now looking for investment opportunities.

There are also other organizations, not only the ones who have negotiated land claims, like the Native Development Corporations, which have experience, knowledge, and a good track record in terms of investments and how to spend their money and do things properly.

To follow-up on Mr. Nerysoo 's comments, this government should be actively negotiating with these northern native investment groups, to talk about the possibility of using some of their money, their business organizations, and their construction companies to do some of the work. I think we may find that there will be lesser of a demand on our capital budgets, with perhaps a transfer somewhere in terms of O & M, but the offset will be the benefits to the local economies in terms of wages, the knowledge and the experience the people will gain. I hope we will end up with many more trades people with meaningful projects on their hands.

Because there is no industrial activity up in the area I represent tourism seems to be the focus. Tourism is obviously a fairly big area but it ties in with the renewable resources sector and the transportation linkages. They all are vital to a successful tourism industry. In all of these areas, especially the renewable resources area, which comprises handicrafts, fishing, lodges, guiding, etc., our northern people do not need a lot of college degrees. They have earned their knowledge by doing what they do best, living off the land.

With some cultural awareness in terms of the people they have to cater to and the treatment they expect, very few dollars have to be spent in training these people to do the things they do best. We need infrastructure, safe and expanded transportation links throughout the Northwest Territories, because the people who stay here do not just go to one place. They have to travel long distances and in many cases they stop at two or three different places to get to their final destinations.

Statistics prove that tourists, especially because we have a highway link from the Yukon, make the decision when they come up the highway to take that loop from Dawson to Inuvik. I think there is a lot of potential. I am pleased that the Standing Committee on Finance has initiated work in terms of looking at a new gambling facility in that area because people who come up the Dempster get a taste of that when they hit Dawson. I think that we should look at Inuvik if any facility is going to be built because a high level of traffic comes up that highway. These are some general comments. We have things to work with.

There are people and organizations who are ready, willing and able to work. We need a little more coordinated fast action type of approach to getting some of these things done. Renewable resources are not new; we have talked about fishing, tanneries, carving, sewing. All those things are there, and it is just a matter of sitting down with the groups and getting the projects going. All too often we continue to talk and study in a lot of cases, and I think the time is past for this type of talking. We must start doing. Thank you.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 182

The Chair

Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. We are on general comments. Mr. Bernhardt .

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 182

Ernie Bernhardt

Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know Economic Development and Tourism has done its best to create employment. However, from listening to Members' comments, I think too much emphasis is being placed on putting more money into the highway corridor system to serve settlements which already have these facilities. Mr. Minister, my riding is only accessible by First Air and Ptarmigan. If you are rich enough you can go by kayak from Yellowknife to Coppermine. These things are not noticeable to the outside world.

Tourism is good. I do not dispute that. However, Mr. Minister, the tourism season in the Northwest Territories is five months. It does not qualify a person to go on U.I.C. What this government should be doing is looking at taking alternative measures to create the cottage industries within the communities so that people can get off the welfare system and sustain their livelihood. A lot of our native people cannot afford washers and dryers. We could have a launderette in Coppermine. We had one, but it has been out of commission for a long time. We do not even have a restaurant in Coppermine open to the public.

These are the things that we really need. Our community is over 1,000 people. These are the things that the general public in my riding have to make people aware of. The people from the Keewatin are aggressive people. They have to focus on how to create jobs. That is what we need in our riding. I am not going to wait for the boom to hit my riding. I want to get things going, but it is hard to get the people in my riding to open their eyes and learn how to be aggressive. We have just as much ability as any other region, and our region is the least touched in the territories.

The potential is there, but we are accessible only by air. We have a beautiful river, Coppermine River, Bloody Falls, Bathurst Inlet and these are the places in my riding where dollars can be put into, even to have a road from Coppermine to Bloody Falls. Not everyone can afford a boat and kicker. That would be good for the tourists that come to Coppermine. We are too passive, I think we should learn how to be aggressive. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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Committee Motion 29-12(3): To Adopt Recommendation No. 29

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 183

The Chair

Ludy Pudluk

I wonder if the Minister would like to respond?