Debates of July 30th, 1999

This is page numbers 721 - 753 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was housing .

Topics

Members Present

Item 1: Prayer

Recognition Of The Establishment Of The Aboriginal Sports Circle

Studies To Improve Northern Health Care Systems

Economic Potential Of NWT Forest Resources

Comparison Between Politics And Hockey

Negotiated Contracts For Housing Units

Acknowledgement Of The Yellowknife Association For Community Living

Observations On Summer Session

Growing Shortage Of Health Care Professionals

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Return To Written Question 9-13(7): Update On Education Funding

Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Tabled Document 63-13(7): NWT Housing Corporation Annual Report, 1997-98

Tabled Document 64-13(7): A Framework For Community Justice In The Western Arctic, June 1999

Tabled Document 65-13(7): Letter From Mayor Of Tsiigehtchic To Honourable Floyd Roland Re: Housing Shortage

Tabled Document 66-13(7): Report On The Payment Of Indemnities, Allowances And Expenses To Mlas For The Fiscal Year Ended March 31, 1999

Tabled Document 67-13(7): Report On 1999 Youth Parliament

Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Censuring The Actions Of The Executive Council

Item 16: Motions

Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Dissolution Of The 13th Legislative Assembly

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Bill 15:

An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act

Members Present

Honourable Jim Antoine , Honourable Charles Dent , Mr. Erasmus , Honourable Sam Gargan, Mrs. Groenewegen , Mr. Henry , Honourable Stephen Kakfwi , Mr. Krutko , Honourable Michael Miltenberger , Mr. Morin , Mr. Ootes , Mr. Rabesca , Honourable Floyd Roland , Honourable Vince Steen .

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Oh, God, may your spirit and guidance be in us as we work for the benefit of all our people, for peace and justice in our land and for the constant recognition of the dignity and aspirations of those whom we serve. Amen.

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

Samuel Gargan

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Rabesca . Good morning. Mr. Antoine , your point of order.

Point of Order

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in reviewing unedited Hansard, I noticed yesterday in his Member's statement, the honourable Member from Yellowknife North used the phrase "proverbial wooden Indian" in regards to Members of this House attending committee hearings this summer. Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure from reading the unedited Hansard which Member the honourable Member was referring to.

I find the reference itself quite offensive and unparliamentary. I would like to ask the honourable Member if he would withdraw the remarks so that it does not remain as part of our public records. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

The Speaker

Proverbial - proverb - the word itself is not unparliamentary. The Members of the Executive can take offence in the context in which the word has been used and I will allow debate on the point. Mr. Erasmus .

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I do not believe there is a point of order there. Mr. Speaker, I have no problem with removing that. What would the Premier wish to replace those words with? The sentence is still there. There has to be something, we cannot just leave it blank.

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

The Speaker

I think if the Members would look at the Hansard, page 1170, you look at the first sentence before the point of order was raised, following the sentence after that, that it does not affect the reading. "It is obvious that the Ministers present at the community hearings did not listen to their constituents' presentations. They did not hear the constituents saying we are afraid". So removing that is what the Minister is requesting. The sentence still makes sense. Mr. Erasmus .

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Mr. Speaker, it loses some of the meaning. I do not mind taking out those three words. If he wants to tell me what else he wants to have sit there like I do not mind. I will take out the proverbial wooden Indian. He can put whatever else he wants to sit there like. Thank you.

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

The Speaker

It is not up to the Premier to make suggestions on what should replace those three words. Eventually, it is still the Speaker who will decide whether or not the Premier does have a point of order. Mr. Kakfwi .

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There have been a lot of remarks made in the course of this Assembly in the session this week. There have been many remarks made about the rift that is existing or going to be created between the non-aboriginal and the aboriginal people of the North if this government does not take decisive action and provide leadership and whatever other remarks were made. I believe that the remark "wooden Indian" is stereotyping with racial overtones. It is a racial slight on those of us that sit in this House that of are aboriginal decent.

I do not believe that the point is to get into grammatical discussion about what should replace those remarks. The point is an apology and a withdrawal of those remarks will correct the record that they were said, they are not acceptable, and there should be an apology and an acknowledgement that they should not have been said. That would, I believe, help to correct the record and the perception of the public about how we do business in this House. Thank you.

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

The Speaker

Thank you. To the point of order. Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to indicate that those words, in reference to our Premier , as a Member of this House, I find offensive and insulting. I agree they were made by an aboriginal person. Just to put them in context, if they had come from one of the non-aboriginal Members, I think that there would have been a huge uproar. I think just because Mr. Erasmus is also a First Nations person does not excuse that, and I take offence as an insult against our Premier . Thank you.

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

The Speaker

Thank you. To the point of order. Mr. Dent .

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would argue that the Premier does have a point of order under either

section 23(

k) or perhaps 23(

h) of our rules. I believe that the Premier , in raising the point of order, indicated that he was not certain that it was to him that the words were referring, but if I correctly heard the Member from Yellowknife North in his initial response to this, he asked "What would the Premier like me to replace those words with, what did he sit there like?", which makes it very clear to me that this sentence does, in fact, refer to the Premier and, therefore, if the Premier believes that he has been slighted under rule 23(k), I believe that there is a point of order.

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 721

The Speaker

Thank you. On the point of order. Mr. Erasmus .

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 722

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Mr. Speaker, I do not see any reasoning in Mr. Dent 's words. Just because a person feels he has a point of order, it does not mean he has a point of order. He actually has to have one. I have not heard any actual reasoning why it is a point of order, but I have agreed I will take it out. I will say bump on the log then, okay. My whole point was not a racial slur. It could have been anything that could not listen. A wooden Indian cannot listen because it is a piece of wood. That is all I said. If you read my words, that is what it means, so I will say a bump on the log.

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Item 1: Prayer

Item 1: Prayer

Page 722

The Speaker

Thank you. To the point of order. I will make a ruling on that point of order as soon as we have copies of the Hansard on this short debate. I would like to have it done before we go too far into the business of the House, so I will make my ruling as soon as possible. Orders of the day, item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements, Mr. Krutko .

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Member's Statement 200-13(7): Recognition Of The Establishment Of The Aboriginal Sports Circle

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 722

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, at this time, I would like to thank the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs for his Minister's statement yesterday in regards to an Aboriginal Sports Circle being established. I find it is long overdue that we have come to a point where we have established an organization to develop the youth in our communities. Mr. Speaker, almost 32 percent of our population is under the age of 14. Mr.

Speaker, one of the biggest problems we have in our communities is the self-esteem of our youth and the younger people not having the resources to partake in sporting events, or not being able to have the opportunities that you have in the larger centres by way of having resources to basically compete at the territorial and national levels. Also not having the resources to have coaches and resource people in the communities to assist them to develop that self-esteem and move on in regards to themselves, to be competitive, to develop their emotions, their mental state, and also their physical state.

Mr. Speaker, I think it is more than just establishing an organization. We have to be able to have the resources for these organizations to do the work and to ensure that they are funded to be able to carry out their responsibilities. I, for one, fully support this initiative. For myself, I have been involved in cross-country skiing, I was on the NWT ski team for five years at which it was probably one of the best times of my life development from the small community of Fort MacPherson and travelling to national events in Alaska, Quebec, Ontario and also the northern part of the United States.

With that I would like to thank the Minister for his efforts and to continue to strive to work along with the Aboriginal Sporting Circle for them to develop and find the adequate resources to move on and be successful in what he is trying to do. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 200-13(7): Recognition Of The Establishment Of The Aboriginal Sports Circle

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 722

The Speaker

Members' statements. Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Member's Statement 201-13(7): Studies To Improve Northern Health Care Systems

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 722

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, one of the greatest challenges facing our government today is how to preserve what is right and to fix what is wrong with our health care system. This government has spent vast sums of money on studies on how to improve our health care system. Study after study, hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent on consultants. In fact, in the last two Assemblies it is in the millions of dollars.

Mr. Speaker, we have seen a plan to address critical needs shaping our future. A strategic plan for health and wellness, community wellness, working together for community wellness, a directions document, the Northwest Territories Health and Social Services strategic plan or otherwise referred to as Med-Emerg Study. The Med-Emerg Study alone cost this government $780,000. Now I understand that there is another initiative underway, the Forum on Health and Social Services. In the last government, we also had a similar forum coordinated by a special committee on Health and Social Services.

People all over the Northwest Territories were able to add their input through over 200 workshops, meetings, and other public events. We should, by now, know what we want.

Mr. Speaker, every dollar that we spend on consultants' workshops, meetings, travel and committees is another dollar that we take away from our health services. After all these studies, I think we know what we need and what we want to do. Mr. Speaker, I know that we can work together to solve this problem and find a northern answer to this very northern challenge. I ask both sides of this House to proactively work on this problem. I suggest that we start by using the data that we have already gathered and spend proposed funding for further studies on taking care of our people. Study time is over, Mr.

Speaker, and it is time to get down to work. It is good to seek input from other people, but, as leaders, I think that the people expect us to stop asking questions at some point and start answering them. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 201-13(7): Studies To Improve Northern Health Care Systems

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 722

The Speaker

Thank you. Members' statements. Mr. Ootes .

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Member's Statement 202-13(7): Economic Potential Of NWT Forest Resources

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 722

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Good morning, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, over the last couple of days, I have spoken about economic issues, specifically those sectors where good potential exists for increased revenue generation. Forestry is one economic sector that deserves more attention. When most people think of lumber resources in western Canada, they think of the softwood forests of BC or the hardwoods of northern Alberta. Few people realize the potential in the Northwest Territories. NWT spruce and aspen, as well as Jack pine and birch cover 61 million hectares in the NWT.

The commercial harvest of sawlogs in 1996-97 was about 190,000 cubic metres with a value of $21 million. It is estimated that a sustainable annual harvest of 500,000 cubic metres of spruce and pine saw logs is possible. That translates into a potential commercial value of $55 million. In other words, we could easily double the annual harvest in sawlogs. Then there is still the commercial potential of lumber, finished woods, and furniture products. In 1995, the housing sector investment in the NWT was over $60 million. With such a strong demand

for building materials, there is a strong market potential for locally produced lumber. Almost 70 percent of the NWT forest products sold in 1996 went to southern markets, and the majority of this was in the form of raw logs and rough lumber. Raw log harvests and exports may be economical, but it produces only limited northern benefits. What we need to realize is that the NWT forest industry has the potential for more than just rough lumber.

Value-added industries can be developed in veneer and particle board manufacturing and furniture-making, to give several examples. Demand for NWT forest products is high and is expected to remain so. What we need is better inventory and a strategy for value-added industry and support for private enterprise in this area. More extensive and better detailed forest inventories would provide the information investors need in order to build on the economic potential of the NWT forest sector. Sustainable development of the NWT forest sector is dependent upon industry, community and government working together. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Member's Statement 202-13(7): Economic Potential Of NWT Forest Resources

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 723

The Speaker

Thank you, Mr. Ootes . Members' statements. Mr. Antoine .

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Member's Statement 203-13(7): Comparison Between Politics And Hockey

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 723

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, since it is Friday and I am trying to make sense of what has been happening to me here in this House in the last few days, again in the House as MLA for the last eight years and holding different offices and coming from being a chief formerly and coming from the Dene politics side of life, I just wanted to try to make some sense of what has been going on here in the House.

As well as having played a lot of hockey in my young days and still occasionally lace it up for a few old-timer games, and some charity games, I start comparing politics to full contact hockey, knowing that when you get into the game, you know you are going to get hit and you know that you have to keep your head up and that you have to make sure that when you go into the corners, you watch out for elbows and but-ins and so forth. I think that has been happening here in the last few days.

There are some in this House who refer to this team here as, somebody was making reference to a duck. I would like to say that I would prefer to be known as the Mighty Duck Team rather than the Lame Duck Team. I am confident that there is the name that some of the Members are referring to in their remarks. As well, I looked at the opposing team and just recently an old pro from this team got traded to that team, so he has a lot of tricks and a lot of talent, and he seems to fit pretty well with a couple of the players on the other side, and they have been playing pretty good together.

However, we have to keep on going here. We still have this day left, and I just wanted to say that we will keep our heads up and the other side keep their heads us. I would also like to thank you, Mr. Speaker, since you are the referee, you know all the rules and all the old tricks that players often use, as well as the skates in the crease when you score, that sort of stuff. I would like to thank you for making sure that not much gets by you. With that, I would like to thank you. Mahsi.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 203-13(7): Comparison Between Politics And Hockey

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 723

The Speaker

Thank you, and thank you for the compliment. Yes, I am old, so I should know all the old tricks. Members' statements. Mr. Rabesca .

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Member's Statement 204-13(7): Negotiated Contracts For Housing Units

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 723

James Rabesca

North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today, Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment on what my communities are receiving as a result of negotiated contracts for the construction of housing units. We have heard many times, over the life of this Assembly, that negotiated contracts should not continue. They do not provide the benefits of lower cost, for example, that tendered contracts possibly can achieve. I have argued, as have some of my other colleagues, that these types of contracts should remain as they do indeed provide many benefits to the smaller communities.

In my region, all of our communities have negotiated construction contracts with the Housing Corporation and are starting to work or awaiting materials.

As I have said many times over, these contracts do provide badly needed employment and training opportunities in the smaller communities that have high unemployment and rates in low education levels. The residents want to work, and this is a great way to get residents working and at the same time, provide good quality homes that are also needed badly in our communities. With this, I encourage this government to continue with these types of contracts for our smaller communities so they can continue to provide the residents with employable training. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 204-13(7): Negotiated Contracts For Housing Units

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 723

The Speaker

Members' statements. Mr. Henry .

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Member's Statement 205-13(7): Acknowledgement Of The Yellowknife Association For Community Living

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 723

Seamus Henry

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize an organization in Yellowknife who provide a valuable community service. Mr. Speaker, the group I am speaking of is the Yellowknife Association for Community Living. This association advocates with and on behalf of people with intellectual disabilities and their families in the Northwest Territories. In 1963, the first group of parents formed the association to seek support for their children. Since then, this association has grown and now supports individuals, families, and children in three communities in the NWT.

The association is a member of the Canadian Association for Community Living and is represented by board members and self advocates at the national level.

The emphasis in the programs is first and foremost on the community inclusion. The Abe Miller Program provide opportunities for integrated training and employment of 24 people with intellectual disabilities. The Employment Support Services supports 19 people in employment in various businesses and government in Yellowknife. The Summer Café, which is operated by clients of Abe Miller, offers delicious luncheons in a pretty outdoor setting next to the Abe Miller Building.

The recently developed Literacy Outreach Centre is a partnership with Aurora College and offers individualized reading, writing, spelling, and math programs. People with and without disabilities are included in this program. The Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Program is guided by the Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Community Team made up of a variety of community agencies, health professionals, families, and government. The project promotes awareness about the prevention of fetal alcohol syndrome and offers support to families. Workshops have been developed to provide information to schools, families, and the general public.

As you can see, the Yellowknife Association for Community Living is a very much active group within our community and continues to be so through the many dedicated individuals who provide their time and energy to see this group succeed. Mr. Speaker, I ask that my fellow Members join me in recognizing this association and their clients and the many people who volunteer their services to this organization. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 205-13(7): Acknowledgement Of The Yellowknife Association For Community Living

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 724

The Speaker

Members' statements. Mr. Miltenberger .

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Member's Statement 206-13(7): Observations On Summer Session

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 724

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to take this brief opportunity, as this session winds down and as the high temperature debate de-escalates and the even flow of the politics of this House tones down, just to make the observation that we have dealt with some very difficult decisions here, that I think if we look carefully, we all want the same things. We agreed to just about all the goals we are trying to achieve. The heated debate tends to focus on the process of how we get there. As a consensus government, I think that we have managed once again to do the work that is necessary.

This is a relatively rare sitting, as far as I am aware, sitting in July. As today is our last day, I would like to take the opportunity to wish all my colleagues a good break. I hope they all get time in their constituencies at home with their families. I would like to, Mr. Speaker, wish you a speedy recovery as well from your injury.

I think we always have to keep in mind that we are all here together for the common purpose and that as we leave here, this is a job that we are doing and it should not negatively affect, hopefully, the relationships and friendships that are here. I wish you all safe trips back home, and I look forward to gathering once again in September to deal with the remaining issues that we have before us as the 13th Assembly. I think that as we all look back, we should be able to take credit on a lot of the good work we have done. Thank you.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 206-13(7): Observations On Summer Session

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 724

The Speaker

Members' statements. Mr. Erasmus .

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Member's Statement 207-13(7): Growing Shortage Of Health Care Professionals

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 724

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I arise today to speak about the growing crisis caused by the shortage of nurses and doctors. My colleague from Hay River has mentioned or asked questions and made statements a couple of times since we have been here this week. I had wanted to participate in that as well, but I want to make sure I had my other questions asked and statements made first. Mr. Speaker, because of the contracts, the union's pay equity, it is very difficult to change salaries, wages, that type of thing. We can only do that every time a contract expires. Now with pay equity, you raise one of the nurses, you have got to raise so many other different fields as well.

The problem we are having, Mr. Speaker, is to fly doctors and nurses in and out on a part-time basis because of the shortage. We are having inexperienced nurses in the communities, and because of their inexperience and their fears of something happening to the people, I am hearing they are medevacing too many people out. It is causing this type of cost to go out of sight, so something has to be done. We know that the government put $3 million or something into some type of a plan. I cannot remember the length over which this money is supposed to be utilized, but I think we have to go beyond that.

There has to be something put into place so that when nurses and doctors are being offered huge incentives down south to go south, we can combat that somehow. Whether we like it or not, money plays a huge, huge factor in where people are going to go to work. It is not only the lifestyle and the rest of that. Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

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Member's Statement 207-13(7): Growing Shortage Of Health Care Professionals

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 724

The Speaker

The Member for Yellowknife North is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Do we have any nays? There are no nays. Mr. Erasmus , you have unanimous consent.

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Member's Statement 207-13(7): Growing Shortage Of Health Care Professionals

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 724

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying, money is a huge factor in where people decide to work. I will just give one example. There was a doctor that concluded her residency here in Yellowknife. She was offered a job. She really liked it. She said she would have liked to stay. However, she had applied in Texas as well, and they offered to pay her student loan of $160,000 if she stayed there for four years. So obviously she did not stay here. She is down in Texas. Those are the types of things we have to deal with. Mr. Speaker, maybe it is time we found a way to deal with these things.

Maybe it is time the nurses were not in the overall public service contract, whatever it is called. Thank you.

--Applause

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Member's Statement 207-13(7): Growing Shortage Of Health Care Professionals

Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 724

The Speaker

Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Ootes .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 724

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my great pleasure to make reference today to several people joining us in the gallery. First, Ms. Heather McNeill is a copy editor for Alberta Hansard. While she is visiting here in Yellowknife, she decided that she missed her work so much, and she joined Office Compliments to do some more work on Hansard. Heather is joined today in the gallery by Maureen Regel, one of the Northwest Territories Hansard editors, and Sue Yeatman, a Hansard indexer. We wish Heather McNeill all our best during

her holiday stay here. Well, she will not get any rest here. We are very busy here, Mr. Speaker, but we thank her for being interested in us. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

--Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 725

The Speaker

Welcome to the Assembly. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. Krutko .

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 725

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

--Applause

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Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Item 5: Recognition Of Visitors In The Gallery

Page 725

The Speaker

Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Item 6, oral questions. Item 7, written questions. Item 8, returns to written questions. Mr. Miltenberger .

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Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 725

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a return to a written question proposed by Mrs. Groenewegen . It is in regard to the update on education funding.

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Return To Written Question 9-13(7): Update On Education Funding

Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 725

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

On July 28, 1999, the Member for Hay River asked for an update on the possibility of adding $5 million to education programs. The Department of Education, Culture and Employment is currently operating under the budget approved by the Legislative Assembly in May, 1999. The need for additional resources for education is being considered as part of the work to develop the business plans and budgets for 2000-2001. Thank you.

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Return To Written Question 9-13(7): Update On Education Funding

Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 725

The Speaker

Returns to written questions. Item 9, replies to opening address. Item 10, petitions. Item 11, reports of standing and special committees. Mr. Krutko .

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Return To Written Question 9-13(7): Update On Education Funding

Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 725

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, I am seeking unanimous consent to go back to item 6.

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Return To Written Question 9-13(7): Update On Education Funding

Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 725

The Speaker

The Member for Mackenzie Delta is seeking unanimous consent to go back to item 6. Do we have any nays?

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Return To Written Question 9-13(7): Update On Education Funding

Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 725

Some Hon. Members

Nay.

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Return To Written Question 9-13(7): Update On Education Funding

Item 8: Returns To Written Questions

Page 725

The Speaker

Sorry, Mr. Krutko . You do not have unanimous consent. Reports of standing and special committees. Item 12, reports of committees on the review of bills. Mr. Dent .

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Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 725

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to waive rule 70(5) and have Bill 25,

An Act to Amend the Workers' Compensation Act , placed on the orders for consideration in committee of the whole today.

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Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 725

The Speaker

The Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake is seeking unanimous consent to waive rule 70(5) to deal with Bill 25 . Do we have any nays?

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Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 725

Some Hon. Members

Nay.

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Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Item 12: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 725

The Speaker

Mr. Dent , you do not have unanimous consent. Reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 13, tabling of documents. Mr. Roland .

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Tabled Document 63-13(7): NWT Housing Corporation Annual Report, 1997-98

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 725

Floyd Roland

Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the following document entitled, NWT Housing Corporation Annual Report, 1997-98. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Tabled Document 63-13(7): NWT Housing Corporation Annual Report, 1997-98

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 725

The Speaker

Thank you. Tabling of documents. Mr. Kakfwi .

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Tabled Document 64-13(7): A Framework For Community Justice In The Western Arctic, June 1999

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 725

Stephen Kakfwi

Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the following document entitled, A Framework for Community Justice in the Western Arctic, June 1999. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Tabled Document 64-13(7): A Framework For Community Justice In The Western Arctic, June 1999

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 725

The Speaker

Thank you. Tabling of documents. Mr. Krutko .

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Tabled Document 65-13(7): Letter From Mayor Of Tsiigehtchic To Honourable Floyd Roland Re: Housing Shortage

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 725

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a letter from the Tsiigehtchic Charter Community in regard to the deep concerns with the shortage of public housing in their community.

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Tabled Document 65-13(7): Letter From Mayor Of Tsiigehtchic To Honourable Floyd Roland Re: Housing Shortage

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 725

The Speaker

Thank you. Tabling of documents.

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Tabled Document 66-13(7): Report On The Payment Of Indemnities, Allowances And Expenses To Mlas For The Fiscal Year Ended March 31, 1999

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 725

The Speaker

In accordance with

section 34.1, I wish to table the report of the payment of indemnities, allowances and expenses to Members of the Legislative Assembly for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1999.

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Tabled Document 67-13(7): Report On 1999 Youth Parliament

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

Page 725

The Speaker

Also I have the pleasure of tabling the report and Hansard of the First Youth Parliament of the Northwest Territories, held May 17 to 21, 1999. Tabling of documents. Item 14, notices of motion. Mr. Erasmus .

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 14: Notices Of Motion

Page 726

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Tuesday, August 3, I will move the following motion:

Now therefore I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Hay River , that this Legislative Assembly continues to support the resolution of land claims and self-government agreements among all aboriginal groups in the Northwest Territories and further requests the Executive Council and the Government of the Northwest Territories to place a high priority on the negotiations and settlement of outstanding land claims.

Mr. Speaker, at the appropriate time today I will be seeking unanimous consent to deal with my motion today. Thank you.

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 14: Notices Of Motion

Page 726

The Speaker

Thank you. Notices of motion. Mr. Krutko .

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Motion 27-13(7): Censuring The Actions Of The Executive Council

Item 14: Notices Of Motion

Page 726

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Tuesday, August 3, I will move the following motion:

Now therefore I move, seconded by the honourable Member for North Slave , that the Executive Council be censured for the manner in which it made major changes to the 1999-2000 capital estimates that were moved by the Assembly without the prior involvement and support of the affected Members and standing committees.

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Motion 27-13(7): Censuring The Actions Of The Executive Council

Item 14: Notices Of Motion

Page 726

The Speaker

Thank you. Notices of motion. Item 15, notices of motion for first reading of bills. Item 16, motions. Mr. Erasmus .

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Item 16: Motions

Item 16: Motions

Page 726

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I seek unanimous consent to deal with my motion today. Thank you.

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Item 16: Motions

Item 16: Motions

Page 726

The Speaker

Thank you. The Member for Yellowknife North is seeking unanimous consent to deal with the motion. Do we have any nays? There are no nays. Mr. Erasmus , you have unanimous consent.

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 726

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

WHEREAS the recent electoral boundary court challenges and the introduction of Bill 15 has created serious rifts among northern peoples;

AND

WHEREAS political stability is necessary if the Northwest Territories is to have a healthy society and a positive economic and investment climate;

AND

WHEREAS the land claim and self-government negotiation processes have been underway for over twenty years;

AND

WHEREAS the support of aboriginal people is needed if the Government of the Northwest Territories is to progress in its efforts toward further devolution, resource development and revenue sharing;

AND

WHEREAS the existing uncertainty surrounding land claims and self-government processes is harmful to both aboriginal and non-aboriginal people and to the economic, social and political stability of the Northwest Territories;

NOW THEREFORE, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Hay River , that this Legislative Assembly continues to support the resolution of land claims and self-government agreements among all aboriginal groups in the Northwest Territories.

AND FURTHER, requests this Executive Council and the Government of the Northwest Territories to place a high priority on the negotiations and settlement of outstanding land claims.

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 726

The Speaker

Thank you. Your motion is in order. Members do not have copies of the motion, so we will take a five-minute break.

-- Break

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 726

The Speaker

The House will come back to order. We are on item 16, motions. Motion 26-13(7). Mr. Erasmus , to the motion.

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 726

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The reason we are making this motion is outlined in the

whereas clauses. We believe that these land claims and self-government negotiations have been going on for years and years. They do create political and economic and even social instability by taking so long. People, investors are reluctant to invest in areas where claims are not settled. Even where claims are settled, if the self-government negotiations are still ongoing, there is still a bit of reluctance in those areas as well to invest.

It seems that this government while we are placing a priority and we are working hard in the land claims area, we think that there should be a higher priority placed and whatever this government can do to facilitate those claims, I should not say whatever, but we feel the government should work harder to facilitate these claims so that they can go faster. I think a good gesture was done in the past year where more staff was hired so that there could be more people working in the land claims areas. These are the types of things that have to continue.

We have to ensure that there are enough people working on the claims so that our government is not holding things up, so that if there is research that needs to be done, if negotiators have to negotiate that there are actually people, enough people dedicated to this so that they do not hold things up.

It is fine for some of the regions I suppose if their land claims are already concluded, but there are some that are not. There is a lot of them. There are the Metis, North Slave Metis, South Slave Metis, Akaitcho Treaty 8, the Dogribs are close, but they are still not finalized, the Deh Cho. There are a lot of groups out there that are still trying to successfully negotiate their land claims and some of them now are moving into self-government and that has been an outstanding sore point as well In the past they have not been able to deal with self-government in the land claims. Now there has been a movement and we feel that it is time that a very high priority be placed on this.

Mr. Speaker, the other issue is that this government needs clarity on the devolution issue and movement on the land claims and self-government issue will help to clarify that. We know that there have been attempts in the past particularly with a Northern Accord, but those have failed and those are largely failed because there are no land claims in some areas or self-government agreements. Those are the main reasons why we are asking for this motion to be passed and that this government place a very high priority on the settlement of land claims and self-government agreements. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 727

The Speaker

Thank you. To the motion. Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 727

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to second this motion. I agree with the comments that my colleague from Yellowknife North has made. Over the last several years as long as I have been serving in this House in many discussions in round tables on constitutional development, we always come back to the question of the unresolved land claims and self-government issues. It makes it very difficult to proceed and build on any progress that we have made because it remains out there. I certainly understand why some of the aboriginal leaders and groups are hesitant to proceed without these issues being resolved. It is a very large unanswered question.

With respect to political accord and Northern Accord, resource accords, it is almost impossible for aboriginal leaders to make sound decisions on behalf of their people without some of these questions being answered. I am very fearful about substantive resource development here in the North that will, due to the lack of progress on claims and self-government, will not deliver the kinds of benefits to Northerners that we want to see.

We know that there is tremendous potential here in the North and we are going to see a lot of interest in this potential, but if it is not going to benefit the people of the North, it makes myself very nervous to proceed with it. We do not want to be selling ourselves short, so I think in any way that this government can assist, we know that most of the negotiations and relations are between the federal government and the First Nations, but in any way that this government can aid and facilitate and assist in that process we need to be very mindful of that.

Since it will be to the benefit of all Northerners when these issues are resolved. Thank you.

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 727

The Speaker

To the motion. Mr. Antoine .

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 727

Jim Antoine

Nahendeh

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this motion reinforces that there be a very high priority placed on negotiations and settlement of outstanding land claims. As well, this motion also is reinforcing the agenda for a new Northwest Territories, which this government has been expressing in the North since the new year. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, yesterday in this House, I made a Minister's statement in regard to an agreement-in-principle that is going to be initialled by chief negotiators with the Dogribs on August 9, I believe.

As well, we have had productive meetings with the committee for the Deh Cho First Nations just the other day. As well, we have had meetings with the Yellowknives and so forth. We continue to do these sort of things. As well, there is the Beaufort Delta negotiations that are going on, so this government has been pursuing these, but this motion urges us on to continue to place a very high priority in this area. With that the Cabinet will be voting in favour of this motion. Thank you.

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 727

The Speaker

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Krutko .

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 727

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I too am in full support of this motion. I believe there are lots of issues out there that people might not think are crucial or critical to land claims groups or aboriginal people, but it does put a strain on the relationship between the people in the aboriginal communities, the aboriginal leadership, the chiefs, the band councils, the tribal councils and also people at the national organizations such as Dene Nation. When they have to react to development proposals that come in front of them. Also this government is a key player in land claims and self-government negotiations.

You are a player at the table and also, once those claims are settled you are signatories to those land claim agreements. I will use an example in regard to the Gwich'in Land Claim Agreement and the Inuvialuit Agreement. The Government of the Northwest Territories is responsible for Wildlife Act amendments. Those are a very serious component of the land claim agreement. Aboriginal people rely on wildlife and also forestry and other aspects in relation to the land and resources that are out there. This government is responsible for making those amendments to ensure those land claim agreements are enacted.

Another area that we touched on, that I raised, is the Northern Accord process. The problem with land claim agreements is the Northern Accord process was an avenue for the federal government to get out of the responsibility that they had and not agree to resource development agreements with aboriginal people in the land claim agreement itself. What they said is we will put another table over here. You guys can negotiate through the Northern Accord process, that is where you get your resource development benefits.

That is where you will be able to know exactly how you are going to be economically able to receive benefits through developments that are going to take place in your settlement region. That component of the Gwich'in Land Claim Agreement and the Sahtu Agreement, even the Inuvialuit, has not been concluded. That is why whenever you talk about development, aboriginal people cannot go to the developer and say, sorry these are all the conditions you have to meet, this is part of the benefit agreement.

We negotiate socio-economic agreements on the diamond industry, but over and above that as part of the land claim agreement there are also agreements that have to be fulfilled under the economic side of our land claim agreements.

We talk about negotiated contracts. We talk about economic benefits to aboriginal people. There is an economic

section of the land claim agreement which is not clear because it has never been implemented. I strongly support this motion and I would like the, just for the other Members, this does not only pertain to negotiated land claim agreements or self-government agreements. It always pertains to implementing the existing land claim agreements that are there. That is something I do not see in here, but for the record, the people that do have land claims are having problems implementing their land claim agreements right now. I would like to, just for the record, make them aware that this also should relate to that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 727

The Speaker

To the motion. Mr. Ootes .

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 727

Jake Ootes

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in general I believe this is a good motion, a proper motion and an area that the government does need to concentrate its efforts in. There is no question in my mind that during the Constitutional Working Group meetings a great issue was always one of the unresolved

land claims and self-government issues and in the end that became a stumbling block to proceed.

There is also the additional uncertainty in the minds of industry of organizations that want to do business throughout the Northwest Territories and development. I believe that with the settlement of land claims and self-government issues, we get a lot of that uncertainty out of the way. We get a lot of the uncertainty out of the way when movement starts taking place and interest by governments and aboriginal groups are directed towards that. Mr.

Speaker, I feel, and I have spoken on this before, we have tremendous potential here in the Northwest Territories because our resources are incredibly rich, incredibly of a huge, huge magnitude. I think once we get over the hurdles of our governance, then all of that can proceed to the benefit of the people of the Northwest Territories. We do have a great future here in the North. If we can achieve that, Mr. Speaker. It is mind-boggling because our population is small, yet our resources are so gigantic, our potential is so gigantic.

Whether it is resources of oil, gas, and minerals, or fishing or forestry, which I spoke about this morning, we have the potential and we need to get on with getting land claims settled and self-government.

Mr. Speaker, I will be supporting the motion. I would like to make a side comment, and that is, on the first statement where it makes reference to Bill 15 "has created serious rifts amongst northern people", those statements have been made repeatedly during this session. I think it is time we move beyond that and get on with more positive statements. I start to believe it is not productive if we keep that style of rhetoric up.

The reality is that Bill 15 is getting third reading today presumably and I think once it is passed, yes, there are issues that need to be resolved but to continually harp on the fact that there are rifts amongst communities, rifts amongst northern people, let us please be more positive, a little more upbeat about our potential. I think it is time that we started to do that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 728

The Speaker

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Rabesca .

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 728

James Rabesca

North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to support this motion since it is a very important motion that has come forward. I believe that it is a long awaited motion that could have come up from this House a long time ago. However, I am sure that the various organizations throughout the territories and maybe national organizations that must have brought a similar motion to the federal government, but yet nobody seems to act to it.

Now certainly it is stronger and is better that it came out from this House and I will assume that most of the organizations throughout the territories might be satisfied with this government if this motion comes forward and is supported as it is. On that note, I would like to support this motion. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 728

The Speaker

To the motion. Mr. Erasmus . Conclude debate.

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 728

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to thank people who have indicate that they will be voting for this motion and I appreciate the fact that the government agrees that there is a need to place a high priority on the resolution of the outstanding land claims and self-government negotiations. Mr. Speaker, the first

whereas indicates that a few things have caused serious rifts amongst the people of the Northwest Territories, and that is just a plain fact, Mr. Speaker. That is what we heard. I am not trying to harp on this. This is not rhetoric. It is just one of the facts. I know Cabinet is trying to make some movement. They have agreed to do certain things to try to get things moving in a proper direction, and I appreciate that as well. With that, Mr. Speaker, I guess we may proceed on voting on the motion. Thank you.

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Motion 26-13(7): Resolution Of Land Claims And Self-government In The Nwt

Item 16: Motions

Page 728

The Speaker

Thank you. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is passed unanimously.

--Applause.

Motions. Mr Erasmus.

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Motion 24-13(7): Dissolution Of The 13th Legislative Assembly

Item 16: Motions

Page 728

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

WHEREAS the four year term of the 13th Legislative Assembly expires on November 16, 1999,

AND

WHEREAS it would be desirable to hold the general election earlier than December 31, 1999

AND

WHEREAS, under

Section 9(3) of the Northwest Territories Act, the Governor in Council, after consultation, may dissolve the Legislative Assembly thus causing a new legislature to be elected.

NOW, THEREFORE, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake , that this Legislative Assembly requests that the Government in Council dissolve the 13th Legislative Assembly by October 21, 1999, to permit a general election for the 14th Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories to be held on December 6, 1999. Thank you.

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Motion 24-13(7): Dissolution Of The 13th Legislative Assembly

Item 16: Motions

Page 728

The Speaker

Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried unanimously.

--Applause

Motions. Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters. Tabled Document 31-13(7). Bill 16 and Bill 23 . Mrs. Groenewegen in the chair.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 728

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

I call committee of the whole to order. We have Tabled Document 31-13(7), Bill 26 and Bill 23 . What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 728

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I would like to recommend that we commence with Bill 23 .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 728

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Is the committee

agreed?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

We will proceed with Bill 23 after a short break. Thank you.

--Break

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

I will call the committee back to order. We are on Bill 23 . I am going to ask the Minister of Finance , responsible for this bill, to make his opening comments. Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Supplementary Appropriation, No. 2, results in a net decrease of $683,922 in approved appropriations. Additional operations and maintenance appropriations of $1,428,965 are offset by a decrease of $2,112,887 in capital appropriations. Due to the net decrease in Supplementary Appropriation, No. 2, there will be no negative impact on the government's operating results for the 1999-2000 fiscal year. In addition, approximately $778,000 of the new supplementary requirements will be offset by revenues or other recoveries.

With the approval of Supplementary Appropriation, No. 2, the total supplementary appropriations approved for the 1999-2000 fiscal year will be $21.7 million.

The major item included in the operations and maintenance supplementary appropriation is $1.2 million for implementation of the final Hay Plan job evaluations for nursing and social worker positions. The supplementary capital appropriation decrease results from a decrease in 1999-2000 capital requirements due to the plan to replace the Yellowknife Correctional Centre over a four year period rather than to renovate and expand the facility over several years at a higher cost. Madam Chairperson, I am now prepared to review the details of the supplementary appropriation document.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent . There is no committee review of this. I would like to ask the Minister if he would like to bring witnesses.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Yes, I would.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Is the committee agreed that the Minister should bring witnesses?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Agreed. Thank you. Would the Sergeant-at-Arms please escort the witness in. Mr. Dent , could you please introduce your witness for the record?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. On my right I have the secretary to the Financial Management Board, Mr. Lew Voytilla.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. General comments on the departmental estimates. Are the Members ready to go to the detail of the bill? Would Members please turn in their green binders to Bill 23, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1999-2000 , and reference page five. Executive operations and maintenance, Financial Management Board Secretariat, not previously authorized, -$42,000. Mr. Erasmus .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Madam Chairperson, I am sorry. What page were you starting on?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

I am starting on page five of the detailed portion of the bill. Department of the Executive. Does everyone have it?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Agreed. Thank you. Total department, -$42,000. Mr. Erasmus .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am sorry. You did not see my hand up. The indication here is that surplus staff housing units are going to be used for social housing in the communities of Fort Simpson and Norman Wells, five units in Fort Simpson and four units in Norman Wells. Could the Minister indicate if this is part of the yearly housing allocation that goes to communities? Every year communities get a specific allocation of housing units. Normally there are only two or three a year, and every community gets their fair share according to the housing needs survey that is done periodically.

I think the last one was done last year. What I am wondering is if these allocations of five social housing units in Fort Simpson and four social housing units in Norman Wells are part of the yearly allocation based on the last housing needs survey that was done. Thank you.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus . Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, actually the government has not allocated any new public housing since 1992. There have been no allocations by community since 1992. This government has not been able to build public housing units. Typically, the new housing that is built in communities is supported by home ownership programs that the Housing Corporation offers, and those are driven by application rather than by allocation.

This transfer results from our policy of disposing of staff housing, and in that policy it states that in communities where staff housing is declared to be surplus, if it is not able to be sold, it is to be offered to the Housing Corporation to be used for public housing if needed.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent . Mr. Erasmus .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 729

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am glad to know there is a policy in place to handle this. What does the policy indicate about the fact that these units are going in and about the allocation of units that those particular communities already have? For instance, I am not sure what their allocation was. Say, Fort Simpson is supposed to get five units this year. Are those five social housing units that are going in now additional units in that community? Do these units here take the place of the units that would have gone into those communities? Thank you.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. No, in fact if these units were not provided to the Housing Corporation to use as social housing, there would have been no social housing units built in those communities. There is no allocation for social housing for any community. Since 1992 this government has not been able to build new social housing units. Rather than having vacant staff housing sit empty in those communities where we have it, this policy which I understand was developed in consultation, with the Standing Committee on Social Programs, dictates they should be transferred to the social housing program. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, I am not asking whether the government allocated social housing to the community. What I am asking is, does that community lose its other allocation then? This effectively puts five more units into the community of Fort Simpson, Nahendeh, and four social housing units in the Sahtu community of Norman Wells. Normally you only get a certain amount of units that are allocated according to the housing needs survey, so if you are getting five social housing units plus your normal allocation, then you are getting two or three times what you would normally get.

What I am asking is, in Fort Simpson, say, do they get these five units plus their normal allocation? Thank you.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 730

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I do not believe there is any relationship between social housing and home ownership, so there is no tie in terms of allocation. There are no housing units allocated under the Social Housing Policy. As I said, home ownership is supported by the Housing Corporation on an application-driven basis. That would mean that if somebody could make an application to own a home, they would not typically qualify for social housing. So it is two completely separate groups of clients being dealt with here.

The two programs are not linked in terms of looking at how many houses might go to a community. As I said, the only other option with these units, since we have not been able to sell them, is to have them sit empty. If there is a need in the community. The policy enables us to put them to good use.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 730

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent . Mr. Erasmus .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I understand there are two different groups of clients that have absolutely nothing to do with the total amount of new units that will be in that community through the Housing Corporation. The only other option is not to leave them sit there. The other option is to give them those five units and take away the other units that they would normally get because they should not be receiving more units in one year than what the housing need survey says they are supposed to be allotted. There is a formula that has been adopted, and we should be sticking to that. Why is this community getting those extra units?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 730

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I must say, I do not accept the Member's argument that there should be a link between the two. I think that social housing is intended for an entirely different target audience than our home ownership programs. I do not see how we could say to somebody who qualified for home ownership that because we were able to move an existing structure, a structure that sits in the community right now so that rather than having it sit empty, we are providing it to the Housing Corporation to use for social housing.

How can we say to a client who qualifies for a home ownership program, sorry, you cannot possibly get into this because we dealt with another program here. There should not necessarily be a link between these two programs. The Housing Corporation was not created to deal with just one client base. It was created to deal with a number of different client bases. All of those client bases have legitimate rights to have their needs dealt with as ably as this government can. Thank you.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 730

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent . Mr. Erasmus .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Roy Erasmus

Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am not disagreeing with the fact that all the various types of clients should have their needs met. What I am disagreeing with is the way these communities are getting an extra four and five units after the fact and not going according to the formula that is supposed to be used. The other thing I wanted to ask about, but I do not think we are going to get anywhere with that, the Minister had indicated that policy was developed with the Social Programs Committee or something to that effect. Could he indicate exactly when the Social Programs Committee reviewed that particular policy and agreed that it was the proper way to proceed? Thank you.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 730

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus . Mr. Dent .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Madam Chairperson, could I direct this question to the Minister for the Housing Corporation . I believe he has that information.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Roland .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 730

Floyd Roland

Inuvik

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. This policy was driven by Members of this Assembly and the Social Programs Committee. The exact timing, I could not give the Member, but I know it was probably in the last two years before that because there was a large concern put forward that there were not enough social housing units in communities. Since, as a department, we have not built social housing units since 1992, the demand has been growing. When this government went on to sell the staff housing units, direction at that time was raised in this Assembly that we should be turning them to social housing units.

So that policy was put into place and has been put into practice now for, I believe, over a year, because I believe we have seen this before. The units that are in the communities are first put up for sale by this government to the public and interested parties. When that does not happen, then it is given an opportunity for the communities to look at that. When it has been declared surplus by each department, then we turn them over to social housing units. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Roland . Mr. Erasmus , your ten minutes are up, and I will go to Mr. Krutko . If afterwards, you still have questions, come back. Mr. Krutko .

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Just following up on the same questions as my colleague, can the Minister tell me exactly how many other units have been transferred to the local housing authorities to be used for social housing?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 731

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 731

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Since 1996 until the present, there have been a total of 39 units in the Northwest Territories and 20 units in Nunavut. There were six in Edzo, 11 in Fort Rae, 11 in Fort Simpson, three on the Hay River Reserve, and eight in Norman Wells. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 731

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I know for a fact in my ridings, especially in Aklavik and Fort MacPherson, there are government units that have not been sold that are still being heated by this government but have not been transferred over. Why is that?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 731

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. We have a number of housing units, in fact, 30 in the Northwest Territories right now in which sales are pending. They may be closing in the next few months because of conditions that were on the sale of the financing. But if we are unable to sell those units, they will certainly, in the not too distant future, be considered for transfer to the social housing arena.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 731

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 731

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Is there some sort of time-line or deadline on how long these houses are going to be left on the open market, because this program has been there for about two years now? I am just wondering when are those units going to be given to the community. I just tabled a letter today from Tsiigehtchic to the Minister basically saying they are having overcrowding and there is a shortage of housing where people are having to leave the community because they do not have housing for the residents of that community.

I would like to ask the Minister exactly when do they intend to allow for all these other surplus housing in the communities which have not been sold to the local housing authority?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 731

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Jane Groenewegen

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 731

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. We are hoping to have everything wrapped up in this fiscal year. I did leave out one important step when I talked about units that we found we were unable to sell and being transferred into social housing, and that is that if we cannot sell the units, typically the next step is to try and talk the community into taking over the ownership of those units, whether they are occupied or vacant. We would want to take that step first and then if we are unsuccessful with the community taking them on, then we will look at transferring them to social housing. But as I said, Madam Chairperson, our goal is to try and conclude this program by the end of this fiscal year.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 731

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Jane Groenewegen

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Is there a possibility that we can get a list that you mentioned there of the different communities and where the allocations took place so that we can see which houses are still left in which communities that have not been sold and ones that have been transferred to the local housing authority, can you make that information available?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

The Chair

Jane Groenewegen

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. We have already provided to Members a

summary of staff housing sales and transfers within the Northwest Territories 1996 to 1999. We can certainly provide that again to the Member, and I will find out from him if he has any specific information that is not included on it and endeavour to also provide him with that information.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 731

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Jane Groenewegen

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 731

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Can we receive it now so we can have a chance to review it in case we have other questions in that line?

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Page 731

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Jane Groenewegen

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 731

Charles Dent

Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. This