Debates of March 4th, 2009

This is page numbers 2759 - 2820 of the Hansard for the 16th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was housing .

Topics

Oral Questions

Members Present

Prayer

Minister’s Statement 50-16(3): Teacher Education Program And Aboriginal Language And Culture Instructors Program – Programs In The Beaufort-Delta

Minister’s Statement 51-16(3): Support For Business In The Northwest Territories

Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Disconnect Between Housing Authorities And ECE In Small Communities

Spending Of Social Housing Money In The Private Sector

Subsidizing Of Social Housing For Seniors

Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Spending Of Social Housing Money In The Private Sector

Condolence To Family And Friends Of Christine Balsillie

94th Birthday Of Mary Kendi

Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Subsidizing Of Public Housing For Seniors

Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Spending Of Public Housing Money In The Private Sector

Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing And Training Provided For Staff

Rent Scales And Subsidies

Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

History Of Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Income Support Workers And Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Housing Agreements With The Federal Government For Aboriginal Peoples

Tabled Document 22-16(3): Towards Excellence: A Report On Education In The NWT

Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Bill 9: Northern Employees Benefits Service Pension Plan Protection Act

Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing Carried

Recorded Vote

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Skills Canada Contribution Funding Carried

Report of Committee of the Whole

Orders of the Day

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

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---Prayer

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Prayer

Prayer

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Good afternoon, colleagues. Welcome back to the Chamber. Orders of the day. Item 2, Ministers’ statements. The Minister of Education, Culture and Employment , Mr. Lafferty .

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Minister’s Statement 50-16(3): Teacher Education Program And Aboriginal Language And Culture Instructors Program – Programs In The Beaufort-Delta

Ministers’ Statements

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Speaker, increasing the number of aboriginal teachers is a primary goal of the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. With that in mind, I am pleased to announce the expansion of our Teacher Education Diploma Program and Aboriginal Language and Culture Instructors Program. In September 2009, we will be delivering these two programs in the Beaufort-Delta. The program has been a success at Thebacha Campus in Fort Smith and in Behchoko. Having these two programs available in Inuvik, allows education to be more accessible to those who want to stay in their home riding.

Students will have the option to complete the teacher education and aboriginal language and culture diplomas in their communities or can do their final year in Fort Smith to finish a full bachelor of education.

Making education more accessible will give us more aboriginal teachers, language instructors, and program staff in our schools. The program is a key focus on the language and culture of the Beaufort-Delta region. It will help to preserve our strong past

while teaching our children the skills they need for the future.

I wish to thank all those who have worked and are working to make the Teacher Education and Aboriginal Language and Culture Instructor programs a success. We have many partners in these programs, including Aurora College, the divisional education councils, Northwest Territories’ Teachers Association, University of Saskatchewan, Indian Teacher Education Program. I look forward to seeing this program grow in the future.

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Minister’s Statement 50-16(3): Teacher Education Program And Aboriginal Language And Culture Instructors Program – Programs In The Beaufort-Delta

Ministers’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . The honourable Minister responsible for Industry, Tourism and Investment , Mr. Bob McLeod .

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Minister’s Statement 51-16(3): Support For Business In The Northwest Territories

Ministers’ Statements

Bob McLeod

Yellowknife South

Mr. Speaker, the impacts of the current economic downturn are being felt worldwide and the Northwest Territories is no exception. We are not immune to global market forces. We cannot control or influence these forces. Now, more than ever, it is critical that the department’s programs and services focus on the needs of our business community and can help them weather this economic storm.

The economy is cyclical and eventually the economy will recover. We must look at the key elements of a robust operating environment for our businesses and ensure that these elements are positioned to operate efficiently and effectively when the eventual recovery of the economy occurs. These key elements are markets, policies and regulations, infrastructure, human resources, and access to capital.

The Northwest Territories is blessed with a tremendous resource base. The Territory has been endowed with an abundance of minerals and petroleum resources and, at the same time, its natural beauty is unparalleled. These are the Northwest Territories’ competitive advantages. As the economy improves, these attributes will once again drive a flourishing economy.

This government and this department are working to ensure that there is an efficient and effective

policy and regulatory regime in place. The government has been engaged in the Northern Regulatory Improvement Initiative. We have negotiated socio-economic agreements with each of the operating diamond mines and the Mackenzie Gas Project to ensure employment, procurement, and value-added opportunities for Northwest Territories residents; a good example of leveraging our competitive advantages. These agreements have resulted in significant contributions to the evolution and growth of our territory’s business sector.

The physical infrastructure must also be in place. This territory needs a transportation network in place that will facilitate the export of goods and the import of material required to produce those products. The departments of Transportation and Municipal and Community Affairs will be moving forward with projects under the Building Canada Fund.

To produce goods and services requires resources, not just raw materials and land, but people in entrepreneurship. The people of the Northwest Territories are one of our most significant resources, but we are aware that there is a significant labour shortage in the Northwest Territories. We are looking to bring workers into the Northwest Territories. To achieve this, the Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment and the Department of Education, Culture and Employment have entered into a memorandum of understanding with the diamond mines.

In 2009-2010 the department will be initiating the National Marketing Campaign, a program intended to promote the Northwest Territories as a great place to visit, work, and live. The Department of Education, Culture and Employment will be delivering the Provincial Nominee Program.

Last, but not least, our entrepreneurs and businesses must have access to capital and information on markets. To address this, the department has a territorial network of regional community economic development officers, business development officers, community transfer economic development officers, and Community Futures staff to promote and provide information on funding and development resources available through the Northwest Territories Business Development and Investment Corporation, Community Futures organizations, the Canada-Northwest Territories Business Service Centre, and the Federal Aboriginal Business Canada Program.

As well, we have the newly developed Support for Entrepreneurs and Economic Development, or SEED, program. This program adds to the support available to small businesses. We have also made a decision to make the Opportunities Fund a more

active fund and will work with the standing committees to do so.

Finally, I would like to highlight to colleagues the ongoing and oft unheralded work that we do as a government to lobby and leverage federal funding and investment to develop, promote, and sustain small businesses in the Northwest Territories. The pending extension of Canada’s highly successful strategic investments in Northern Economic Development Program funding, a total of $30 million for our Territory, was a direct result of this effort.

Similarly, the Prime Minister’s commitment to establish and fund a Northern Economic Development Agency in the North is also a reflection of long established efforts by our government to secure the federal support and interest of economic and business development in the Northwest Territories.

We remain confident that in time the nature and magnitude of our region’s natural resources will allow us to rebound from the economic challenges that we now face. In the interim our government will continue to support and develop the economic conditions and investment climate that will allow us to grow and build capacity in our business and, by doing so, in our people and our communities.

I encourage all businesses to take advantage of the program and services that are in place to help them move through the challenging times and position themselves for the future.

In closing, I believe we have good people and good programs to assist our business community. I invite all of my colleagues in the House to bring forward new ideas to help us address the needs of the business community in the Northwest Territories.

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Minister’s Statement 51-16(3): Support For Business In The Northwest Territories

Ministers’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Sorry. Item 3, Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Ms. Bisaro .

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Nice of you to remember we’re over here.

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

Some Hon. Members

Ohhh.

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, I want to speak today about the public rental housing subsidy and some of the difficulties that we have had since it’s been transferred from the Housing Corporation to Education, Culture and Employment. I guess I

could be considered lucky, because I wasn’t here in April of 2005 when that responsibility was transferred to the Department of ECE. But I’ve been hearing about that impact for almost two years now, even before I started work in this building.

The issues of my constituents are with service or, more correctly, lack of service in most cases. Instead of the promised one-stop shop, public housing clients now must visit two offices instead of one. There is a lack of coordination between the local housing office and the income support office, and dealing with two agencies thoroughly confuses my constituents. They tell me there’s no consideration or management of the whole person or problem. Income support tends to only consider what falls under their umbrella and/or their policies. They seem unable to look outside the box, so to speak.

So housing concerns are ignored; concerns which are often the cause of the income support issue. Income support offices are rigid in their application of policies. Clients report an attitude of “my way or the highway” rather than “what’s the problem and how do we find a solution to your problem”.

The stated goal of this change in 2005 was harmonization, the famous one-stop shopping reason. We have failed miserably in achieving this goal. In November 2006 this House debated a similar motion. The concerns about the impact of the transfer and the complaints voiced then are still the same today. I’d like to give a couple of quotes from November 1, 2006, Hansard record: “Tenants are having to wait three weeks to have their assessments done;” “It has not added any more benefits to the beneficiaries of the program;” and, thirdly, “What we’re struggling with here clearly are implementation problems.”

Today, over two years later, the same issues still exist and, despite the efforts of the Housing Corporation and Education, Culture and Employment to effect improvements, things are only marginally improved. Change is not always better and in this case it has been proven to be worse than the original. I believe we need to admit that a mistake was made and we need to use a time travel machine to take us back to early 2005, a time when we had a public housing rental subsidy system that worked, and we need to stay in that 2005 space for this program to operate the way it should.

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro . The honourable Member for Weledeh , Mr. Bromley .

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Throughout the Northwest Territories, people are having public housing issues and these issues are common throughout. I would like to mention several today. The income threshold at which whole economic rent is demanded is too high relative to income and ability to pay. A confusing Rent Subsidy Program now involving two-stop shopping rather than one has caused an upsurge in arrears that lingers on and is causing anxiety amongst tenants.

Finally, delays in assessments, highly variable incomes necessitating frequent rent subsidy adjustments and delayed payments can combine to yield penalties such as rent increases to full economic rent. This deadly combination can lead tenants into a downward spiral that benefits neither our citizens nor our government.

Mr. Speaker, when our public housing tenants finally get to where they begin making a decent wage and they can begin to establish themselves financially, we almost immediately kick in a requirement for 30 percent of their salary to be paid out in rent. In actual fact, this amounts to 50 percent of their gross income. This substantial burden comes while the tenant is likely trying to deal with other debts and with solidifying their financial status.

Further, because it is diabolically based on gross income, this degree of levy does not fully consider ability to pay, which is related to number of dependents, medical situation, et cetera. Were it to be based on take home pay, that would be a different story. Well, this is a federal policy and is an actual problem that GNWT could clearly take the lead on.

Secondly, Mr. Speaker, the ongoing insistence that the government shows to house the Rental Subsidy Program in ECE has caused an increase in arrears, many of which remain today. This situation is not working, causing people to shift back and forth between income support in ECE and Housing Corporation is confusing and unfair. The remedy is clear.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, many of our housing tenants have unpredictable or seasonal employment that causes their incomes to fluctuate, sometimes wildly as in the case of sport hunting guides. Assessments do not seem to take this fact into account, leading to assessments that the tenant is sometimes unable or late to pay. At this point the rent gets kicked up to full economic rent and thus the spiral begins.

Mr. Speaker, our housing programs are key for the people of the Northwest Territories and we have a good record of getting things built on the ground.

But when it comes to administering rent subsidies, we have less than a sterling record. Let’s not cling to our ways, Mr. Speaker, but show our adaptability and change or admit mistakes as required. Mahsi.

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bromley . The honourable Member for Nunakput , Mr. Jacobson .

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Disconnect Between Housing Authorities And ECE In Small Communities

Members’ Statements

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today my Member’s statement is on housing. Our situation in Nunakput is a serious problem. In fact, the housing situation in the Northwest Territories is a serious problem. Low capital housing projects are planned for Sachs Harbour. In Paulatuk, the rental officer is flown in to deal with people’s arrears and quickly flown out again. More and more administration seems to be done out of the Inuvik regional office level and not being done in the community level. That is wrong, Mr. Speaker.

The regional office is working hard and they have good staff, but often they are using Inuvik solutions for small community problems. The government says they are committed to the community capacity building. The government has to start fulfilling their promises made earlier.

Nunakput communities cannot find the manager because the money is given to the regional offices. It is so low that it is unattractive for many people in other jurisdictions. Giving smaller governments responsibility but not enough money is called downloading, Mr. Speaker. There is a serious disconnect between the Department of Education, Culture and Employment and the NWT Housing Corporation in small communities. Each community must have one-stop shop where residents can go and not get the runaround, where there problems can be addressed, coordinating in a full complement of administrative services at the community level would start making a dent into the problem.

Each community must be given money, resources and a commitment is needed to fulfill the roles that they have been assigned to do. Without that, it is like setting them up to fail, Mr. Speaker. Housing core responsibility of the government such as water, health care, education, protective services. However, recent developments of the government seem to contradict this principle. This government must get serious and tackle the real issues with real solutions.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

---Unanimous consent granted

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Disconnect Between Housing Authorities And ECE In Small Communities

Members’ Statements

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

Last fall I encouraged the government to fund a series of regional meetings composed of all the levels of government, businesses and organizations who, with considerable knowledge in the area of housing, were to generate recommendations to the government to consider while evaluating housing conditions. Many are calling it a crisis.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will have more questions for the Minister of NWT Housing Corporation at the appropriate time. Thank you.

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Disconnect Between Housing Authorities And ECE In Small Communities

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Jacobson . The honourable Member for Great Slave , Mr. Abernethy .

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Spending Of Social Housing Money In The Private Sector

Members’ Statements

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I would like to talk about an aspect of the Public Housing Rental Program that I am concerned about. Like the other Members, I, too, want to see an efficient administration of subsidy programs that provide cost-effective services to clients who need support for their housing costs. We all know that housing costs can be very expensive in the NWT. We understand the importance of this program for our residents, whether they live in small communities or large communities in the Northwest Territories.

The area that I am concerned about is public housing when it is supplied by private sector landlords. I know that in Yellowknife and some of the larger communities it makes good sense to provide a rental subsidy to clients who are living in privately owned and operated housing. This increases the housing options available to our residents.

We all know residents who need some assistance with housing costs only. On other fronts, they are managing well, have a job and are meeting their household expenses. Clients like these and the government could be well served with leases with private sector landlords.

However, I’m concerned about the Housing Corporation’s program which acquired housing through leases with the private sector landlords; agreements that guarantee rent to these landlords and pay the landlords to provide maintenance costs for the units, something that other landlords would cover through rent collection. My understanding is that the rental rates are at a premium. The additional maintenance costs or services are definitely at a premium. These are long-term leases, Mr. Speaker. It is another premium to the landlords or a significant benefit to the landlords at the GNWT’s expense. I think these kinds of services are not a cost-effective way to provide a

public housing subsidy. They are not the best use of the limited financial resources that we have as a government.

Mr. Speaker, later today I will be asking the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation questions about this type of public housing rent and subsidy. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Spending Of Social Housing Money In The Private Sector

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy . Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Hay River South , Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Subsidizing Of Social Housing For Seniors

Members’ Statements

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Obviously, this is a housing theme day today. Mr. Speaker, during the 13th Assembly a policy was put

in place that would see free rent and full utility costs covered for seniors living in public housing units. Mr. Speaker, this causes a problem in market communities where often seniors have been involved in the wage economy, have pensions, have owned their own homes and do have some means to pay. In and of itself, there is nothing wrong for providing free rent to seniors. Where it becomes a problem is when we can’t provide free housing to all seniors over 60. If we could only do it for a few, how do we decide who should benefit from this generous policy? Is it sustainable over the long haul?

All other housing programs that this government has are means tested, but not rent for seniors over 60 who are living in social housing. If you live in a care home, a monthly fee is applicable. If you are in extended care, a monthly fee is applicable. If you live in the seniors home, a fee is charged, so it is an anomaly and I don’t think it came about because seniors themselves said we don’t want to pay anything. I never once heard that before that policy went into place.

I support assisting our seniors in ways that help them live long, healthy and independent lives, but it seems that it would make more sense to include seniors in the means tested policy of all other housing programs. Then I think our government would be in a position to help more seniors, including those who are challenged with the ever-increasing costs of staying in their own homes. The Home Repair Program, the fossil fuel subsidy program are programs that could be enhanced for seniors in their own homes if we did not have all of our resources being consumed by this very generous free policy.

I would not support anything but a phased-in approach if we were to change this policy, taking into full account the seniors’ ability to pay ensuring

that no economic hardship would result. Mr. Speaker, we have created an unfair and inequitable policy that leaves some seniors with little or no support while providing accommodation including all utilities for some at absolutely no charge regardless of their means to pay. Mr. Speaker, I don’t know why we as a government cannot devise a policy that would address this inequity. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Subsidizing Of Social Housing For Seniors

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen . The honourable Member for Kam Lake , Mr. Ramsay .

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the five and a half years that I’ve been a Member of this House, some decisions that the last government made are still causing me to wonder what they were thinking. Of course, nothing will ever top the Deh Cho Bridge, Mr. Speaker, and I’ll just have to accept that I may never understand that decision. Right behind that was the decision to take $30 million for Social Housing Policy from the Housing Corporation and transfer it to ECE. The program was being delivered by Housing staff throughout the Territory and for all intents and purposes the system was not broken.

For reasons still unknown to me, the government decided to grab the $30 million, transfer it to ECE and then hire 14 people to deliver the same program that was being delivered by Housing with their existing staff. Mr. Speaker, not only did ECE have to hire 14 new employees, it cost the government $1.5 million more per year to administer the program. I believe this is completely ridiculous. That $1.5 million could be better spent in other areas of our operation.

Mr. Speaker, I don’t have a crystal ball, but the economy does not seem to be getting any better and you can rest assured our revenues are going to be shrinking. To be spending $1.5 million that we don’t need to be spending is foolhardy.

In 2006 Members passed a motion calling on the government to reconsider the transfer. The last government didn’t listen to us at the time, Mr. Speaker. The government wants us to keep waiting for things to improve, but the bottom line is things are not getting any better. Maybe there is some hope. The mover and seconder of the motion back in 2006 are now both Cabinet Ministers. I know they supported sending the money and the responsibility back to Housing. It was something they believed in. My colleague from Inuvik Twin Lakes, Mr. Robert McLeod , stated during the debate on the motion that “I really challenge the government to be big enough to listen to what they are being asked to

do.” My colleague from Range Lake, Minister Lee , stated “it is not the right move, the government has not met the burden of making their case.”

Mr. Speaker, here we are over two and a half years later and the government still has not made their case. How much longer are we going to allow this to continue? Where is the proof, Mr. Speaker, that this is actually working? Mahsi.

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay . The honourable Member for Sahtu , Mr. Yakeleya .

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I phoned communities in the Sahtu and certainly the people have a lot of concerns with the social housing here, and since it’s been transferred over to the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, things haven’t gotten any better. Actually, the one conversation that I had this morning was that it’s actually gotten worse and that it’s really hindering and frustrating a lot of people in my community because of the implementation that in theory looks and sounds very good but in practicalities, in reality, it’s not working very well.

It’s putting a lot of people in jeopardy in terms of their credit with Housing or with their arrears. It’s changing a lot of people’s ways of looking at how social housing is being delivered in the Sahtu region.

I received two letters from two students who are living in social housing in Tulita and it doesn’t give a very good picture. I’ll be tabling these letters in the House for the Members here to read from these two students who are working very hard to get an education, to get a good job, to live in a house that they can probably say is theirs. They are doing everything that they can do to be productive members of society and in the Sahtu community of Tulita; however, because of the transfers and the difficulties that they are experiencing, it doesn’t seem like they’re getting very far.

For them, they seem like they could only just say, what’s the use in trying? What’s the use trying to get a job, go to school and see if they can do any good for themselves? These young people who have families, who are working very hard to get into school, make some productive choices, but because of the system and the way it is, because of the Social Housing Agreements that were negotiated with the federal government, these agreements here don’t seem to be working for the people.

I think, Mr. Speaker, that we should really go after the federal government looking at these Social Housing Agreements and see how it has an impact

on the people in the Sahtu. These young students, they are very frustrated with the Housing administrative programs and they’d like something to be done. I think that it’s about time that this government is big enough to do something at this time. Thank you.

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya . The honourable Member for Nahendeh , Mr. Menicoche .

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to talk today about my concern about the transfer of the public housing rent subsidy to income support in Education, Culture and Employment. I have always been against this transfer. It did not seem like a good idea to me from the beginning, more than four years ago.

In the NWT we have always acknowledged that many people need help with their housing costs to keep housing affordable. In fact, many people consider that providing access to affordable housing is a longstanding obligation of this government like education and health care. In small NWT communities, no one felt embarrassed to be in public housing. Everyone was located in public housing of some kind. Even the government provided housing for its staff. The Northern Stores provided housing for its manager. The RCMP had housing. There were not very many homeowners except for a few government senior managers in Yellowknife and regional centres.

However, the government changed things. Some of those changes have not been for the better. Now if you need help with your housing costs you have to access the Income Support Program. I know working mothers who pay $500 to $600 a month for their rent and have a regular job and now have to be as income support client. They have to report their income regularly to an income support officer. These concepts may work well somewhere else in Canada, maybe in a big city like Toronto; however, they have not worked well here.

I do not think that we have served our people well by making so many Northerners become clients on social assistance. I think we can change back to the understanding we had in the NWT, that housing is an extraordinary expense in the NWT and that most Northerners need assistance to manage those costs. I think it is time for the government to acknowledge that sometimes the way we do things in the NWT is the right way for us and we don’t need to change things just to be in fashion with southern Canada. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche . The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre , Mr. Hawkins .

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I support the principles of what my colleagues are raising here today. They are bringing forward the frustrations and, if I may define, the swell of frustrations out there in our communities regarding some of the principles of why the social housing transfer moved from Housing over to ECE.

Mr. Speaker, I think, actually, it was a good thing. I think the principles of it were sound, but the problem with the issue really rose when they only did half the transfer. Mr. Speaker, they sent over the auditing process of the application form but they didn’t fulfill their mandate by transferring the administration of where that payment goes. That’s where the problem exists, Mr. Speaker, because now there are two stops when there really should be one. Before it was simple.

Yes, I agree that people could go to Housing if you didn’t need income support, but I really believe in my heart that a Service Canada model style of business would help everyone. In these times of need, this issue seems to surface, as it wasn’t fully implemented. I think that’s where the fault lies.

Mr. Speaker, my colleagues will talk about the market rent problems that have emerged out of this and I would agree with them, but I think the real failing of this process was it was never fully fulfilled, which is finish the job by transferring all the administrative positions over the income support and process one application at one time. Mr. Speaker, that is the solution to this problem. It’s becoming more evident as we discuss this and go forward. Creating two service shops creates twice the burden, Mr. Speaker. I think the government is on the right track.

I think the government needs to make the right decision, though, and finish the social housing transfer all in one. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins . The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe , Mr. Beaulieu .

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Today I wish also to speak about the transfer of public housing assessments from the local housing

organizations to the income support officers in the communities or the transfer of this function from the NWT Housing Corporation to Education, Culture and Employment. I’m not making this statement because I think that Education, Culture and Employment has done a bad job of this, it’s because I think that the government didn’t think about the dignity of the people that they were dealing with.

In effect, this government put 2,300 public housing clients on income support, or better known in the community as welfare. That’s how it was seen. People who had never been on welfare before were living in public housing. Considering they had pride in their homes, they were able to get a unit themselves to house their families. The government decided, hey, we’ll put them all on welfare. And that’s exactly what happened.

It was never that all income support clients were in public housing or that all public housing clients were on income support. It is the issue of dignity. This indignity was levelled to the people in public housing. It created major confusion for all public housing clients, especially the seniors. The working poor were paying their subsidized rent. They were going to the LHO each month and went there for decades. Suddenly some of these people had to apply for income support or welfare in order to obtain their subsidy.

Many people did not go to the income support office and all of a sudden they were in serious arrears and facing eviction. Some people were evicted. Some had nowhere to live. All of a sudden they had bad credit. Not because they were different tenants or that they were bad tenants, it was because the government changed the policy. People that did not go to the income support office were automatically charged maximum rent.

I seek unanimous consent to finish my Member’s statement.

---Unanimous consent granted

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

People who did not go were automatically charged maximum rent, as I just said. In Tu Nedhe that’s $1,300 to $1,500 for a two-bedroom unit. People who were working at the mines came back from the mines and they were going to go pay their rent of $800 or $900 and realized they had to apply for income support to get the subsidy for the difference. They didn’t go and the rest is history.

The change in the policy has not been good for public housing clients. People who had no arrears, no problems with the Housing Association for years are now facing evictions, arrears, bad debt, whatnot.

Anyway, I will have questions for the Minister of ECE at the appropriate time.

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Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu . The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Spending Of Social Housing Money In The Private Sector

Members’ Statements

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The whole Income Support Program and the $30 million that was transferred from the Housing Corporation for the social housing funds was there with the intention of those funds to be used for the O and M of some 2,200 public housing units in the Northwest Territories and to cover those costs associated with social housing. Since that time we have built an additional 520 new units under the Northern Housing Trust, through which we spent $100 million, and now we have another $50 million that we have to spend in this fiscal year and next year.

The $30 million was to assist in covering the cost of O and M for those public housing units throughout the Northwest Territories. Now with the additional 500-and-something units and the $50 million, where is the money going to come from to cover off the O and M for those public housing units?

The whole intent of the Social Housing Trust was to improve the housing stock in the Northwest Territories. Yet we do have a political challenge. Where is the money going to come from to cover the costs for O and M? Those same dollars are being spent through Education, Culture and Employment by hiring more people when those dollars were supposed to be used for O and M for social housing.

Another thing is that now income support clients can go to ECE who may have been evicted from housing or are looking at approaching the private housing market to get into housing in that arrangement in which the money is covered off by ECE using the $30 million which was supposed to be earmarked for social housing in the Northwest Territories. Again, these dollars are being used to rent public housing stock in the Northwest Territories.

Those dollars were earmarked for social housing in northern Canada. Not for the private sector. Not for rent sups for private individuals. To provide the cost to operate the social housing stock in the Northwest Territories. These dollars are not being spent where they were supposed to. With the arrangement of the dollar there, I would like to ask the government to seriously consider reinstating the dollars with respect to the $30 million back to the Housing

Corporation for the reason it was supposed to be spent, which was for social housing.

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Spending Of Social Housing Money In The Private Sector

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery. Item 6, acknowledgements. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe , Mr. Beaulieu .

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Acknowledgement 3-16(3): Condolence To Family And Friends Of Christine Balsillie

Acknowledgements

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I wish to acknowledge Mrs. Christine Balsillie of Fort Resolution, who passed away on February 28th at

the age of 77. Christine was born in Old Fort Rae on December 21st , 1931, and was well known and

highly respected for her sewing skills. Christine is survived by her sons, Don and Clayton Balsillie, and daughters Joanne Teed, Tracey Balsillie and Dianne Boucher. She was predeceased by her husband, Harold, and daughters Helen and Vivian.

Christine is a Lafferty originally from Behchoko and has many relatives in the Behchoko area. She will be sadly missed by her children, grandchildren, sons-in-law, daughters-in-law, and many family and friends in Yellowknife, Fort Resolution, and Behchoko.

Funeral services for Christine will be held tomorrow at 11:00 in Fort Resolution.

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Acknowledgement 3-16(3): Condolence To Family And Friends Of Christine Balsillie

Acknowledgements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu . The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Acknowledgement 4-16(3): 94th Birthday Of Mary Kendi

Acknowledgements

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

I would like to acknowledge Ms. Mary Kendi of Aklavik, who turns 94 years old today.

---Applause

Mary is one of the last generations of her family who has lived, trapped, and hunted as a means of survival for herself and her children. Mary lost her husband early in their marriage and, as a result, cared for and nurtured her children and taught them the traditional values and skills of hunting, trapping, sewing, and the family love that she brought to her children.

She contributed to the community of Aklavik by securing and telling the story and history, and also with her traditional knowledge being passed on to

the new generation. As well, she was a major resource by way of knowledge for the people of Aklavik.

I would like to wish Mary Kendi a very happy birthday for today and thank her for all her wisdom, her grace, and the sharing of herself and her family, and, more importantly, the gift that she always had of sharing the knowledge she has with her people, her community, and her children. Mahsi cho, Mary.

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Acknowledgement 4-16(3): 94th Birthday Of Mary Kendi

Acknowledgements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . Item 7, oral questions. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe , Mr. Beaulieu .

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Question 247-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today in my Member’s statement I spoke of the transfer of public housing assessments from NWT Housing Corporation or the local housing organizations to the income support office.

The more I think about this and the more that the departments think this could actually work, I don’t think it’s a solvable issue. I think that this issue, the only way to solve the issue is to put the thing back into the Housing Corporation or the local housing organizations.

I would like to ask the Minister of ECE if he would be prepared to meet with the Minister of the NWT Housing Corporation to reverse this wrongdoing.

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Question 247-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu . The honourable Minister responsible for Education, Culture and Employment , Mr. Lafferty .

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Question 247-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the Member’s comments and direction to our Cabinet here. We have done a lot of work in this area over the last four years. We’ve consulted with various groups and agencies in the communities and we have met with the standing committee as well, giving them an update of where we are. There is a lot of work ahead of us still. It’s a huge undertaking. It won’t be fixed overnight. I guess you can say any huge project undertaking such as that will take some years to make it work and make it efficient and effective.

At the same time I have been working closely with the Minister of the Housing Corporation and we have met on a frequent basis. We have met with our staff as well, our senior staff, our staff that are dealing with the communities. We are moving forward on working together and identifying the

challenges that still are out there. We do continue to work in this area on how we can improve in these areas.

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Question 247-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

I think the issue, as I see it, is that this can’t be fixed as is. That’s the problem. It could be effective, it could be efficient, it could be economical, people could have no arrears, but it can’t be fixed. The problem is that the people on income support have been, I mean, in public housing that’s been transferred to welfare. That’s what the issue is; nothing else.

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Question 247-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

I didn’t hear a question there. Mr. Beaulieu , maybe I misunderstood. I didn’t hear a question there.

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Question 247-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I guess my question is, how would the Minister hope to resolve that specific issue of how the people in public housing feel about this?

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Question 247-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Certainly there may be a perception in the community. As I stated, it has been in the works for four years now. One of the areas we focused on at the beginning of the transfer was a one-stop shop. We have achieved this by offering the office, the one-stop shop, giving the subsidies to clients, income assistance, public housing rental subsidies, senior home subsidy, child care user subsidy. So it’s more than just one subsidy.

We did a survey. Clients are saying in the customer satisfaction survey that they are accessing more benefits today than before.

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Question 247-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

There is a technical issue that I’d like to ask the Minister. Has the Minister resolved the issue of the income tax impacts upon people that are being taxed on their subsidy?

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Question 247-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Certainly that’s one of the areas we’ve been tackling as one of the challenges. But it’s nothing new. It’s always been there. Certainly we continue to work with that. There’s always room for improvement. This is one area we need to deal with and, simply, we cannot do it alone. We need to work with the LHOs. That’s why I did commit in the House that I’ll continue to work with the Minister of the Housing Corporation to resolve these issues. That’s just one area. There are other areas we need to deal with, but we are making progress and we are willing to sit down with the standing committee to give them an update on what’s happening. Both the Minister of the Housing Corporation and I.

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Question 247-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . Final supplementary, Mr. Beaulieu .

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Question 247-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For the people of Tu Nedhe it has become two-stop

shopping, because they used to just go to the housing authority and get their subsidized rent amount and they actually paid their rent. Now they have to go to the income support office first and apply for their subsidy. When they get their subsidy, then they take their subsidy minus the maximum rent and then they pay their rent. So it hasn’t really worked for the people in Tu Nedhe, in any event. I’m just wondering what the Minister means by one-stop shopping versus what was there before compared to what’s there today.

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Question 247-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

The one-stop shop is having all the subsidies in one area. Before there were all these different areas that the individuals could go to. We’re still working on that as well. That area, of course, we’ll continue to work with. And also ECE expanded service to a number of remote communities, such as Fort Resolution and Lutselk’e, as well. So we identified those small communities that may face challenges of whether it be a one-stop shop. We do have some certain leases that we’ve agreed to several years back. We continue to respect that.

So they may not be a one-stop shop in certain communities, but that’s our strive to have a one-stop shop, all the subsidies in one area in all communities. That’s our goal. We’ll continue to strive for that.

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Question 247-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Question 248-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of the Housing Corporation regarding the cost to operate and maintain the housing stock, knowing that we originally had some 2,200 units and just put some 520 units on the ground and now we have another $50 million. Again, at the end of the day there is a cost associated with operating this many units. Now we’re responsible for some 2,700 units. The $30 million that we get from the federal government through the social funds that are being handed over to ECE is supposedly there for the cost to operate and maintain those units.

I’d like to ask the Minister of Housing where exactly we’re going to find the additional funds that will be needed, knowing that we have additional houses on the ground that we are responsible for operating and maintaining on top of the 2,200 that we already have. What are we doing to increase those dollars, realizing we have more units to maintain?

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Question 248-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation , Mr. Michael McLeod .

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Question 248-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The number of units we have in the public housing stock is 2,400 units. That number hasn’t changed as a result of the Northern Housing Trust. The Member is right; by the end of this year we’ll have 500-and-some new units on the ground. Those units were put in place in some cases to private accommodation and in a lot of cases some of the money was spent to replace older public housing units. With these new dollars we intend to do the same thing, including upgrade a lot of the units.

The Member is quite correct when he says where is the new money going to come from. We have not received any new dollars for the public housing operations. We are still at $32 million. Of that, 15 percent is being raised through rents. The rest is all through government subsidy. We are on a declining subsidy scale. Every year we do get reduced. I believe this year it’s $750,000 that CMHC is cutting us back. Next year my understanding is that it will be around $3 million. The only way we can recover that is either to raise rents to operate our units or reduce the stock.

We do have a political challenge to convince the federal government that they cannot move away from this area of responsibility in social housing. We’re not alone. It’s not targeted only to us. It’s targeted to all jurisdictions across Canada. We’re creating alliances to try to address this to convince the federal government that they have to stay involved and this is a serious concern for all of us and we’ll continue to bring that message forward.

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Question 248-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

The $30 million that is earmarked for ECE for social housing, I noticed that the last numbers I looked at the Housing Corporation only received $27 million. There are $3 million not spent for social housing but was spent in the private sector for housing in regard to rent supps or people renting from the private sector when they went to ECE, because they couldn’t get into housing for one reason or another. I’d like to say, isn’t that a concern of the department that you’re not getting the $30 million back that was given to ECE for social housing, which has now been spent in the private sector and not for social housing?

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Question 248-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

I’d need clarity to see where the actual dollars the Member is referring to are or what the situation is. In response to the question, we are always concerned. Any time there are dollars that are supposed to be coming to us for whatever reason, whether it’s through the federal government subsidy, the CMHC subsidy, or through our own government, or from our clients, our public housing clients, and we’re not receiving our rents, it becomes an issue. It becomes an issue for us as the Housing Corporation and it becomes an issue for the LHOs. We need to collect at least 90 percent

of our revenues through these in order to operate our LHOs efficiently. Anything under that creates a deficit and really causes difficulty at the LHO level.

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Question 248-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

I think the Minister should be concerned because the dollars that are going through ECE are being spent for administration, travel, costs that weren’t there before. We have LHOs in all the communities, but we have social workers flying in from the regional centres into communities, overnighting, meeting with clients, flying back to the regional centres. That cost is coming out of your $30 million.

I’d like to ask the Minister what exactly his department is doing to assess the relationship that you originally had where you did both the assessment duties and charging the rent to the client instead of having ECE do it. I’d like to know, is the Minister looking at that in light of the questions regarding ensuring that the revenues that are there to operate and maintain social housing are not being spent on travel for other people and other staff.

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Question 248-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

What we’re doing is having a discussion with the intention of moving forward in terms of doing an assessment. The decision to transfer some of the responsibility for social housing to ECE has been in place now for several years. The decision was made in 2005. We believe it’s high time that we took a step back and did an assessment to see how well it’s working, what are the benefits, what are the pros and cons of doing it this way.

Somebody mentioned today in their statement, where is the proof that this is going well? There are a lot of things that we could point to probably that were probably difficulties in getting this in place. There are other things that we can point to that are doing well. This has allowed, as the Member has indicated, for more people to be hired through ECE. They’re allowed to expand the area that they service by face-to-face meeting rather than having the region deliver some of the programs. Through the economies of scale they are able to do more. We have to be able to measure that.

The Minister of ECE and I are working on developing a terms of reference. We’re looking at signing an agreement so that we can go out and do an independent review. We’re not quite at that stage yet, but there is still some more discussion to take place, but that was our intention.

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Question 248-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final supplementary, Mr. Krutko .

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Question 248-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

I’d maybe like to ask the Minister if he would do his own internal review regarding the housing authorities in our communities and see exactly what the problems are that they are dealing with in regard to getting the rent supp payments

back from ECE on a timely manner so that they don’t find themselves running into a deficit or basically that their cost of O and M on those units are out of line with actually what their payroll is. I’d like to ask the Minister if there are any plans to do an internal review from the Housing Corporation’s point of view on the transfer. Has it worked, hasn’t it worked from the Housing Corporation’s perspective?

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Question 248-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

We are probably more in a position to analyze the situation as it really has direct bearing on the operations of our LHOs. The ability to collect rent, as I mentioned earlier, is a big part of the operation that the LHO has to utilize as a budget. Our budget now, after some difficulties for a period of roughly two years, we’re back to the level of rent collections that we had been at historically. So we’re quite comfortable now that most of the people are stable in terms of knowing where and how the system and paper flow is working. We don’t expect it to change all that much over the next while.

There is still and always will be, no matter if it’s this process or the Housing Corporation did all the analysis and collection by itself, including setting the rent scales, will be the challenge of collecting rent. There are people out there that refuse to declare their income. That was there before. That’s going to stay there at any rate, no matter how we set it up. That seems to be an issue we will always be struggling with. My solution or objective is to provide good information, show how the calculations are made, show how the money is being utilized, and educate the people who are in our public housing units.

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Question 248-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Nahendeh , Mr. Menicoche .

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Question 249-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of ECE with regard to the rental subsidy that was transferred over to his department. Our goal as the government is to improve the lives of our people. I don’t believe our goal is for harmonization, which means channelling or herding people over to one central area. It makes life difficult. The Minister spoke about the assessment. That’s something that’s been ongoing for some time. We’ve been looking for it and asking for it. I’d like to know exactly what stage this assessment is at. It may be internal but, at the same time, how much public focus is he going to give this assessment?

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Question 249-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche . The honourable Minister responsible for Education, Culture and Employment , Mr. Lafferty .

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Question 249-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. We do have data, of course, over the last four years of what we’ve done to date; improvement in certain areas. Since the transfer there’s been a greater number of computer assessments to date and improved LHO collection of rent. As Minister Michael McLeod indicated, there has been some progress made on the rent collection. As the Minister also indicated, we are analyzing our assessment area and relooking at our shop of one-stop shop where we’re at today, where we’ve been, and where we’re going with it. Certainly those are the areas that we need to highlight on a moving-forward basis.

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Question 249-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Both Ministers, the Minister of Housing as well, keep talking about good news, but that’s not what we’re hearing in the communities. They’re asking for us to give them time, but we’ve done a motion about a year ago as well and they indicated then that they’ll look at the Rental Subsidy Program. For me, I believe that the transfer went to the wrong department. I believe it should have stayed in Housing. Just as an example, how is the income assessment for housing different from income assessment or just regular income support?

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Question 249-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Each client is different in the regions. We talk about the one-stop shop with all the rental subsidies, the child care in different areas. Certainly some individuals have three or four accessible subsidies, so it’s convenient for them. So this is an area that we showed interest in to allow as much information as we can. Not only that, we are reaching out to the communities now. Since I met with Minister Michael McLeod of the Housing Corporation, how can we make a difference in the communities. Just updating on the clients and potential clients that we have out there, the detailed information on program delivery.

The subsidies are available. Some community members are not fully aware of the subsidies that we offer. So I’ve instructed my department to be out there, visible, more visible in the communities. They are doing that. They’ve gone to Behchoko, as an example. They’ll be going to other regions as well and providing more detailed information. I think that’s required. We’re not just...They call us a welfare department. We provide the subsidy area and the money is there. The funding is available to offset the rental. So that is the area that we focus on with our department. Mahsi.

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Question 249-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

When the program was with the Housing Corporation, Mr. Speaker, it was administratively simpler. People showed up with income statements. They were assessed rent of

$500 or $600 per month based on income and a few other parameters, but now they are going to income support, Mr. Speaker. Right off the bat we are charging them economic rent, which is something I disagree with because that is $1,200 or $1,400 per unit when the market rent is about $1,000 or $1,100. Just once again, is there a difference in income assessment for housing clients as opposed to accessing the other income support programs? Thank you.

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Question 249-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Speaker, when the transfer came into play, we did not make any changes. How it was delivered through LHOs and what it comes down to now, public housing rental subsidy, the policy and rules were developed by the NWT Housing Corporation so we continue with that trend. At the same time, Mr. Speaker, information has been requested by LHOs at that time. We still continue with that today. It has always been there. It always will be there because we have to follow certain policies. Not just on policies but on subsidies, there are requirements to qualify for subsidies. That is the area that we will continue to work with. Mahsi.

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Question 249-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

With the research that the Minister has done to date, can the Minister say with certainty that this program is working for him and his department? Thank you.

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Question 249-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Speaker, we did do an income assistance client satisfaction survey: 76.7 percent of the response was satisfied with the outcome of the assistance, 10.3 percent said they are satisfied. So 76 percent is the number we are using. Just recently, December, January, we did a conductor survey. It just goes to show it is working in the community. We continue to improve our service in how we deliver programs in the communities, Mr. Speaker. We will continue to work with the standing committees, with the Minister of the Housing Corporation . There is always room for improvement. I would like to hear ideas from Members, as well, on how we can improve in certain areas. Mahsi.

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Question 249-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . Oral questions. The honourable Member for Hay River South , Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Question 250-16(3): Subsidizing Of Public Housing For Seniors

Oral Questions

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For those who benefit from the free housing for seniors, I do apologize, but, Mr. Speaker, there are many other seniors out there in our communities who do not enjoy the benefit of enough support from this government with respect to living independently in their senior years in the Northwest

Territories. It was in the 13th Assembly that this

government decided to introduce a policy that would see seniors in public housing over the age of 60 pay zero rent, contribute nothing towards the cost of their units. Could the Minister of Housing please tell me what the rationale was behind that policy? Thank you.

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Question 250-16(3): Subsidizing Of Public Housing For Seniors

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen . The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation , Mr. Michael McLeod .

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Question 250-16(3): Subsidizing Of Public Housing For Seniors

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That decision was made many years ago. The intention behind that decision was to ease the burden of the high cost of living in the Northwest Territories. At the time, the focus was on the small communities. Mr. Speaker, since that time, the seniors are the fastest growing segment of our population across the North. We have experienced in the last 15 years, according to our records, 75 percent in the area of more seniors than we did historically. That is becoming the challenge. It is another issue that is facing us for review. The Minister of ECE and I have had some informal discussions.

We will continue to look at that decision, but there is a growing concern in this area. The initial intention was to ease the cost of living for seniors in the Northwest Territories.

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Question 250-16(3): Subsidizing Of Public Housing For Seniors

Oral Questions

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

That is a very noble intent to ease the burden of the cost of living in the North for seniors over 60. If that is the intent of the government, why would you take a small portion of seniors in a market community and give them everything and give the vast majority of seniors living in their own homes, struggling with the high cost of living, nothing? How would the Minister say or rationalize how that policy that has been left in place...It is good to say it is being reviewed, but it has been left in place and the number of seniors is growing.

Why, if that was the intent and real purpose of this government, would they not make that an equitable distribution of resources on the part of this government? Thank you.

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Question 250-16(3): Subsidizing Of Public Housing For Seniors

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Mr. Speaker, I have been the Housing Minister for eight months now. My task list is growing and growing. Mr. Speaker, I certainly agree with the Member that this is an issue that we have to look at. I do not agree, however, that we leave people in private housing that are seniors, with nothing. That is not a correct statement.

We do have all our programs accessible to seniors. The last couple of years we have expanded our program so that now the seniors can access up to $90,000 worth of renovations to their units. We have changed the way we deal with seniors. We have opened it up further. However, there is, as the Member put it, part of our senior population that are

still utilizing our facilities at no cost. It is a challenge as ECE has limited funding. They are the ones with the subsidy money and it is being reduced. We had the Housing Corporation charge full maximum rent to everyone and the subsidy, of course, is offset by ECE. That is an issue that has to be looked at and decisions made. Thank you.

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Question 250-16(3): Subsidizing Of Public Housing For Seniors

Oral Questions

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

I stand corrected. It is true; there is something out there for seniors living in their own home. I agree. All of those policies and all of those programs available to seniors living in their own housing are all means tested. Some of them like the Repair Program that the Minister referred to, you can get up to a certain amount of money. If you want to access that, you have to allow the NWT Housing Corporation to become a joint homeowner with you. They need to register a caveat on your title in order to do that. The reason they do that is because they are worried.

If you get $20,000 to fix up your house and then, in five years, you decide to sell your house, or in three years, that you might be receiving a benefit. So it is hard to rationalize that, then, with the fact that the other policy has absolutely no means test as do all the ones that he is referring to that seniors in their own homes have. They are all means tested and the NWT Housing Corporation wants to co-own your home with you in case you receive a benefit. How does he rationalize that? Thank you.

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Question 250-16(3): Subsidizing Of Public Housing For Seniors

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

The Member is correct; there is a forgivable mortgage that assigns liens and security to our new programs. We do not provide free rent to the seniors. The Housing Corporation charges full rent. ECE offsets the rent by paying it 100 percent.

Mr. Speaker, it is an area that needs attention. It was put in place during the days, in the era of one that there were not a lot of high income pensioners in our smaller communities. It was only targeted towards the smaller communities. Now the program has been opened up to the larger regional centres and it is cause for concern. We have a lot of what could be interpreted as windfall situations, so it needs to be looked at and a program has to be incorporated. That is our intention, is to look at it and see what we can do there. Thank you.

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Question 250-16(3): Subsidizing Of Public Housing For Seniors

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Question 250-16(3): Subsidizing Of Public Housing For Seniors

Oral Questions

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Might I suggest that the policy that allows seniors to live in NWT Housing Corporation’s social housing unit for no rent assessed to them is not a policy of ECE? It is a policy of the Housing Corporation. So I am very glad to hear that although ECE may pay that subsidy out of their budget, it is in fact a policy of the Housing Corporation that says to the Department of ECE, do not charge those seniors

anything for rent and utilities regardless of their income. I want to put that on the record, because that is the case.

Mr. Speaker, when the Housing Corporation and ECE do take a look at this policy, would they commit to including the NWT seniors in the consultation about improving this policy? Thank you.

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Question 250-16(3): Subsidizing Of Public Housing For Seniors

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Mr. Speaker, first of all I should say that the government policy that requires us to provide free rent to housing is one that is fully subsidized by ECE. They could decide to change that subsidy level with some discussion with Cabinet, I guess. We would, once we have decided how we are going to move forward or how the next steps are going to take place, we do have a lengthy list of to do’s. We have a lengthy list of issues that have been raised by Members of this House during this session and the last couple to address...We need to involve as many people that are affected, of course, as possible. That will include the seniors and we will ensure that happens. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 250-16(3): Subsidizing Of Public Housing For Seniors

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Kam Lake , Mr. Ramsay .

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Question 251-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are for the Minister of ECE and it gets back to my Member’s statement talking about the transfer of public housing rental subsidy from the Housing Corporation over to ECE a number of years ago. During the debates that we had in the 15th Legislative Assembly, the Minister of ECE at

the time told us that the transfer was a critical part of the income security redesign. If it was such a critical component, I am just wondering where this income security redesign sits with this government and this Minister. Where exactly is this income security redesign? Thank you.

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Question 251-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay . The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment , Mr. Lafferty .

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Question 251-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Certainly when the transfer took effect, there was an income security reform established at that time. Part of that is to deal with the subsidies at hand. There is a plan in place since 2005. We are continuing to work with the plan and also expanding if we need to in certain areas, also improving certain areas. It does reflect on the public housing rental subsidy. It also has guiding principles that we follow within our reform. Mahsi.

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Question 251-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

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Question 251-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Speaker, any new initiative that comes before this House is presented to the standing committee. Previous governments had their own government at that time. Today, the 16th Assembly, we follow the

principle that is before us. I can certainly easily share that with the standing committee because we are transparent. We can certainly share that information.

I think it is important to highlight that we are working with what has been developed in 2005. We continue to make progress. As the Minister of the Housing Corporation has indicated, we can certainly look at some changes so we need to make some changes for the betterment of the program we deliver into the communities. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 251-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Mr. Speaker, on something as large as income security redesign, this is a new government. The decision was made by the last government and the direction that was taken by the last government, I think we have had numerous discussions in here about decisions that were made by the last government. The current government seems to want to go forward with others. They don’t. I don’t understand why the Minister and the government wouldn’t come forward with what exactly their plan is. There are a number of new Members here. I am not a member of the Social Programs committee, Mr.

Speaker, but the Minister should get this plan in front of the standing committee and tell us exactly what is going to happen. When will that happen? Thank you.

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Question 251-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Speaker, certainly that is one of the areas that we are looking at, myself and the Minister of the Housing Corporation . We will be before the standing committee to highlight what we have done to date. The plan initiated in 2005 in April until today where we are, where we need to improve, and now what kind of progress have we made since then and where we are going with it. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I will commit in the House that we will be presenting to the standing committee on a going-forward basis what we have done to date. Mahsi.

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Question 251-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . Final supplementary, Mr. Ramsay .

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Question 251-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is a plan that I believe all Members are going to have to

buy into and I know just today this was the first I heard of an independent review. I believe it was the Minister of Housing that spoke of an independent review taking place. There was a review that was promised to committee back last February, I believe. This issue came up right after the election in 2007. I believe the Minister made some commitments to get us a review on the transfer that was supposed to be here in February of last year. Here we are a year later. Now they are talking about an independent review, Mr. Speaker. Exactly where is the departmental review on the transfer? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 251-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Speaker, within our department there are different types of reviews that are undertaken. Since the transfer of the program in 2005 until today, we have conducted several reviews to see what is working and what is not working.

We continue, as I stated earlier, Mr. Speaker, and I will continue to do so. We are making improvements into our program. Again, I stated that, with the Minister of Housing Corporation , we are going forward with a review of our program today. We will continue to share that with the standing committee. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 251-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . I would like to remind Members of your rules governing question period. We have used up 38 minutes and only five Members have gotten to ask questions yet. The honourable Member for Nunakput , Mr. Jacobson .

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Question 252-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to ask questions to the Minister on my Member’s statement. Mr. Speaker, given the current housing conditions in Nunakput, will this government allocate necessary resources whereby communities will get their fair share of administrative funds so renovations could be done at the community level? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 252-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Jacobson . The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation , Mr. Michael McLeod .

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Question 252-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure what the Member means by fair share of administration to do the renovations. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated in Committee of the Whole, this year our budget for housing capital is at $27 million. We expect the federal government will come forward, once the federal budget is approved, for another $25 million. That is $52 million this year.

Our intention is to have a plan that we would present to standing committee along with our many issues or many areas that have been brought forward in the last while and what we intend to do with it. We would like to have that brought forward in front of the standing committee and try to tackle these issues on a going-forward basis with all Members involved so everybody is aware of how we are proceeding.

As the Minister of ECE and I have said already, we are looking at doing a number of evaluations. Some of it is being brought forward as intentions right now and a lot had the opportunity to go in front of committee, but we would like to do that and present the framework.

Having said that, our intention is to work with the LHOs to provide more and additional tools or resources to the communities so they can tackle some of the areas that have been challenging, especially the Nunakput area with the public housing units and the private home units. We would be glad to share that information with the Member once it is all packaged up and ready for discussion with standing committee. I can assure that the information will be there. Thank you.

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Question 252-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

Will this government review the current contributions to the communities regarding staff salaries so the communities can realistically recruit and retain staff that we desperately need? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 252-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

This is an area that was flagged as a concern with the Auditor General, I believe, and it’s an area that we’ve really been working hard to improve so that we are in tune with what the LHOs are facing. We are able to work with them to try to deal with the challenges. The short answer to the Member’s question is, yes, we’ll do whatever we can to work with the LHOs.

We have to realize, though, all LHOs are expected to operate on the dollars that we can provide. The onus is on LHOs to collect some of the rent that they also use for operations. There are some areas that we can outright look at and provide wherever we can support, but there are other areas where the onus is on the LHO to enhance. Thank you.

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Question 252-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, will the government commit to implementing more centralized policies so that the regional centres have clear guidelines when developing future plans? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 252-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The answer is yes. Of course we need to ensure everybody’s on the same page. It’s the same instructions that we provided to our regional staff and to the LHOs, that communications are a

priority for us. We want to change our attitude towards providing -- maybe attitude isn’t the word but -- change our approach so that communication, information is at the forefront so people are well aware of our programs, including our own staff. Thank you.

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Question 252-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Great Slave , Mr. Abernethy .

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Question 253-16(3): Spending Of Public Housing Money In The Private Sector

Oral Questions

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Earlier today I talked about arrangements that the NWT Housing Corporation has with private sector landlords to provide housing agreements where the government guarantees high levels of rent regardless of usage by our clients. They also provide coverage for maintenance and upkeep, something that other landlords cover through rent. My question is for the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation . Could the Minister please tell me approximately how many of the 2,400 public housing units have been acquired through these types of long-term lease arrangements with private sector landlords? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 253-16(3): Spending Of Public Housing Money In The Private Sector

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy . The honourable Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, Mr. Michael McLeod .

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Question 253-16(3): Spending Of Public Housing Money In The Private Sector

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The practice of using private sector landlords has been something the Housing Corporation has been utilizing for some time. We have over 200 units that are in our public housing portfolio through this method and I think we expend close to $3.5 million a year. Thank you.

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Question 253-16(3): Spending Of Public Housing Money In The Private Sector

Oral Questions

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

Can the Minister tell me if these units, the ones where we’re paying the high premiums for rent and maintenance to provide to private landlords, are still needed. Do we still need to keep doing this given the investment that has been made to increase the number of public housing units over the years? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 253-16(3): Spending Of Public Housing Money In The Private Sector

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

Mr. Speaker, this is a way to offset some of the capital costs. It’s also a way to stimulate the economy in different areas of the Northwest Territories. We’ve moved away from engaging into long-term, 10, 20-year leases with the private industry. We’ve now gone to shorter five-year leases. It’s still an area we’re interested in and probably still need to continue practicing. Thank you.

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Question 253-16(3): Spending Of Public Housing Money In The Private Sector

Oral Questions

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

As I indicated in my Member’s statement, I actually support the use of some private landlords to cover some of our public housing, but I do question when we actually guarantee high levels of rent even when the units aren’t filled, and also why would we be providing these landlords with maintenance fees. In situations where we’re actually covering the maintenance and guaranteeing these high rents, can the Minister tell me if he plans to discontinue the use of these types of rental agreements by not renewing the leases when they come due every five years? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 253-16(3): Spending Of Public Housing Money In The Private Sector

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

We do intend to move away from that type of arrangement where we’re not getting fair value for our investment. We do need to continue, however, to work with a balanced approach towards leasing some of our units from private industry and also, at the same time, balancing it out against building our own. We want to tighten up the areas and be able to negotiate better and more effective arrangements. It’s an area that needs constant attention and we are trying to be very mindful as we enter and set up agreements. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 253-16(3): Spending Of Public Housing Money In The Private Sector

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final supplementary, Mr. Abernethy .

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Question 253-16(3): Spending Of Public Housing Money In The Private Sector

Oral Questions

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

That’s very good news. I’m glad to hear that we’re going to be moving away from those kinds of agreements. Do we have any timeline as to when we might see some of that start to happen? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Question 253-16(3): Spending Of Public Housing Money In The Private Sector

Oral Questions

Michael McLeod

Deh Cho

We, I think, have already started working in this area to be more efficient. By the mere fact that we’ve shortened up our agreements it gives us more flexibility; however, we are still in some areas, in some parts of the Northwest Territories in some communities really in a difficult situation where we have no other alternative or if there is a situation where there is a type of emergency that comes forward we are going to continue to use this method of providing accommodation, but we certainly will be setting up tougher guidelines than that. That will come into play fairly quick. Thank you.

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Question 253-16(3): Spending Of Public Housing Money In The Private Sector

Oral Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Ms. Bisaro .

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Question 254-16(3): Transfer Of Responsibility For Social Housing And Training Provided For Staff

Oral Questions

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are addressed to the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment . I’d like to recognize -- I mentioned in my statement but I’d like

to say again -- the work that the NWT Housing Corporation and the Department and Education, Culture and Employment have done in regard to the transfer of public housing rental subsidy. They did eventually recognize that there was a problem with the harmonization and I think they have managed to effect some improvements, but certainly not enough, in my estimation. The transfer, as has been mentioned, created hundreds of new welfare recipients in just one fell swoop. I’d like to ask the Minister, what training do income support officers receive to enable them to handle the special needs of their housing clients? Thank you.

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