Debates of May 30th, 2008

This is page numbers 725 to 756 of the Hansard for the 16th Assembly, 2nd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library.

The word of the day was justice .

Topics

Members Present

Prayer

Minister’s Statement 41-16(2) Status Of Federal/provincial/territorial Housing Discussions

Minister’s Statement 42-16(2) “world No Tobacco Day” May 31, 2008, And Tobacco-Free Youth

Minister’s Statement 43-16(2) Aurora College Residence Opening

Dust Control In Small Communities

Privatization Of Fort Simpson Airport Maintenance Services

Comments From Constituents On Fiscal Reductions

Industrial Arts, Home Economics And Physical Education Teachers

Hr Process To Identify Potentially Affected Employees

Motor Vehicle Safety Restraints For Children

Yellowknife Association Of Concerned Citizens For Seniors

Careless Littering With Cigarette Butts

Traditional Hunting Activities In Nunakput

Dust Control On The Dempster Highway

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Question 15-16(2) Somba K’e Healing Lodge

Motion 10-16(2) Setting Of Sitting Hours By Speaker

Motion 11-16(2) National Housing Strategy

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Committee Motion 17-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $45,000 For Program Delivery Officers At Ycc (Committee Motion Carried)

Committee Motion 18-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $83,000 For The Programs/projects Coordinator Position (Committee Motion Carried)

Committee Motion 19-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $85,000 In Contributions To Community Justice Activities (Committee Motion Carried)

Committee Motion 20-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $265,000 In Contributions To Special Projects For Community Justice Activities (Committee Motion Carried)

Committee Motion 21-16(2) To Defer Consideration Of The Department

Summary (Committee Motion Carried)

Committee Motion 22-16(2) To Delete $320,000 From Community Justice And Corrections Capital Investment Expenditures Territorial Women’s Correctional Centre — Replacement (Committee Motion Carried)

Committee Motion 23-16(2) To Undertake A Facility Review Of Existing Facilities And Space Requirements (Committee Motion Carried)

Committee Motion 24-16(2) To Defer Consideration Of Department

Summary For Department Of Justice Infrastructure Acquisition Plan (Committee Motion Carried)

Report of Committee of the Whole

Orders of the Day

The House met at 10 a.m.

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Prayer.

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Prayer

Prayer

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Good morning, colleagues. Welcome back to the Chamber.

Orders of the Day, item 2, Ministers’ statements. The honourable Minister Responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation .

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Minister’s Statement 41-16(2) Status Of Federal/provincial/territorial Housing Discussions

Ministers’ Statements

Thebacha

Michael Miltenberger

Minister Responsible for NWT Housing Corporation

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to provide the Legislative Assembly with an update on provincial and territorial activities currently being undertaken in the area of housing.

As Members may be aware, federal/provincial/ territorial discussions on housing nationally are focused in three areas. Firstly, provinces and territories have been aggressively emphasizing the need for Canada to reinstate the O&M funding that is declining under social housing agreements signed by most provinces and territories.

Secondly, Canada has also been asked to reinvest so-called legacy savings, surplus funds available to CMHC as the mortgages for public housing dwellings are paid, into new affordable housing. The Northwest Territories receives approximately $30 million annually from Canada to operate and maintain the public housing stock. This funding is currently declining annually and will lapse completely in 2038. The cumulative impact of this decline between 2008 and 2038 is a loss of $348 million.

Thirdly, the financial uncertainly created by declining funding is compounded by the short-term nature of federal housing programs. All federal housing initiatives, including the housing trusts along with federal funding for renovation and repair

as well as homelessness funding provided directly by the federal government to community groups, will lapse as of March 31, 2009. As of today the federal government has made no commitments to extend funding for affordable housing programs past this date.

These three areas of focus of the provinces and territories clearly demonstrate the need for a long-term housing strategy. Canada is the only major nation in the world without a comprehensive strategy. According to the Wellesley Institute, Canada currently spends only $56 per capita on housing. This is compared with $156 per capita in the United States and $226 per capita in the United Kingdom.

In February 2008 provincial and territorial housing ministers collectively reaffirmed their support for the principles adopted in White Point, Nova Scotia, in 2005 that would form the basis of a national housing strategy.

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Minister’s Statement 41-16(2) Status Of Federal/provincial/territorial Housing Discussions

Ministers’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger . Ministers’ statements. The honourable Minister responsible for Health and Social Services , Ms. Lee .

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Minister’s Statement 42-16(2) “world No Tobacco Day” May 31, 2008, And Tobacco-Free Youth

Ministers’ Statements

Sandy Lee

Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to take this opportunity to recognize World No Tobacco Day tomorrow, May 31, 2008. This day provides us with an opportunity to acknowledge the many activities aimed at the prevention and cessation of tobacco use in which the Government of the Northwest Territories has invested. These actions will create long-term benefits for Northerners and will help them make healthy and productive lifestyle choices.

Since 2002 the GNWT has made tobacco reduction a priority, and we have invested significant resources into tobacco use reduction, focusing particularly on youth and community-based programs. Since the implementation of the communications strategy and anti-tobacco legislation two years ago, vendors have been found to be compliant with the law requiring all tobacco products be hidden from view of the public. There has been one conviction and several warnings since the implementation of this legislation.

We have been guided by the 2002 Action on Tobacco strategy and informed by the report Smoke Alarm, which demonstrated the urgent need to take immediate and prolonged action to reduce the rate of smoking in the Northwest Territories and to prevent youth from starting smoking.

This year’s World No Tobacco Day theme highlights tobacco-free youth. In line with this theme, I want to take a moment to reflect on the progress we have made towards our goal of creating a smoke-free society by celebrating those youth who are leading us into a smoke-free future. We believe the commitments made by youth in the prevention campaigns such as the Don’t Be A Butthead campaign. School-based prevention activities, the introduction of workplace smoking bans and territorial tobacco control legislation, alongside other tobacco reduction programs, are making a difference.

The 2006 NWT School Tobacco Survey shows that the number of young smokers between grades 5 to 9 has declined significantly from more than 17 per cent in 2002 to 12 per cent in 2006. The rate of smoking among aboriginal youth has declined the most, down to 17 per cent from 25 per cent. While this rate is still too high, it demonstrates that progress is being made, but we need to continue our work in this important area.

I’d also like to announce that each year the Butthead campaign recruits youth to be smoke free. All youth who sign up are entered into a contest, and winners are chosen randomly. This year’s winners of an iPod nano are Logan Drader, age 11, of Norman Wells; Cheyanne Andre, age 9, of Tsiigehtchic; Evan Tordiff, age 11, of Fort Smith; Tameika Steinwand, age 8, of Behchoko; and Dalton Simba, age 11, of Kakisa Lake.

This year we have 400 new youths and 1,400 youths who have recommitted to remain smoke-free. We have expanded the Butthead campaign this year by encouraging 200 NWT Arctic Winter Games athletes to sign lifetime commitments.

A pan-territorial initiative called Smoke Screening brought 12 anti-tobacco ads from around the world to the NWT, where they were viewed by NWT youth in grades 6 to 12 who voted based on what they thought to be the most effective. The winning ad will be shown on northern television in the fall.

We continue to invest in preventing tobacco use in our youth, with our payoff being a healthy, vibrant population free from the devastating effects of tobacco.

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Minister’s Statement 42-16(2) “world No Tobacco Day” May 31, 2008, And Tobacco-Free Youth

Ministers’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Lee . Ministers’ statements. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment , Mr. Lafferty .

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Minister’s Statement 43-16(2) Aurora College Residence Opening

Ministers’ Statements

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Speaker, this government understands the importance of building partnerships with aboriginal governments, municipalities and industry. In the Beaufort-Delta in particular, such partnerships have achieved great things. I recently had the opportunity to participate in the opening of the Aurora College student residence in Inuvik last month. The residence could not have been built without strong support from the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation, the Gwich’in Tribal Council, the Town of Inuvik, Aurora College staff and students, and the people of Inuvik.

The residence fills an immediate need in the region as there was a lack of appropriate lodging for single students studying at the college. For the past few

years single students have been sharing family residence spaces in the community. The partners in this project had the foresight to see that meeting the immediate need of the students from the region would have a much broader benefit to the community.

The facility itself was designed in consultation with the student community. The residence is bright, modern and located in close proximity to classes. It includes four large, well-kept kitchen-dining rooms, a lounge, recreation room, laundry facilities and 30 single rooms, including two barrier-free units on the first floor as well as barrier-free common areas on the first floor.

I’d like to take this opportunity to thank our partners as well, FSC Architects & Engineers and Dowland Contracting Ltd. Both companies worked on this project in partnership with the GNWT Department of Public Works and Services to ensure the design was appropriate and the project on schedule. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

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Minister’s Statement 43-16(2) Aurora College Residence Opening

Ministers’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . Item 3, Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Dust Control In Small Communities

Members’ Statements

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In regard to the situation of low dust control in communities we are now realizing that communities are going out of their way to set up roadblocks to raise money to chipseal roads in their communities. I think that’s a pretty drastic step to take, but in this case people have to take that step to bring attention to the dismal situation communities find themselves in, especially dealing with dust control.

Over the last number of years communities have requested from this government programs to deal with dust control, to look at main street chipseal, yet I notice that has been excluded again from the budget. I believe that this government has to do everything it can to improve the quality of life in communities, especially dealing with dust control.

Yesterday in a rally that I took

part in, this was heard loud and clear from the young people who were taking

part in the protest, raising the issue with regard to N’dilo and the condition of roads in the city of Yellowknife’s boundaries. I think it’s important, being the capital of the Northwest Territories, to do everything we can to let people realize there are not two sides to the capital city. There are the urban dwellers on one side and the people living in Third World standards by way of roads and services. As a government we’re responsible for improving the quality of life for all

residents and being fair to all residents when it comes to programs and services.

I believe that this is a trend that communities have to take to get the message out, and start, you know, establishing roadblocks. I think that tells us that we have a problem.

I think it’s important that this government tries to find solutions to solve this problem and work with the affected people in those communities in being able to give them what everyone else is taking for granted, such as the chipseal or basically some sort of surfacing for those communities.

I know we’ve raised this issue in regard to committees of this House. There was the committee on small communities. This was an issue that was raised in their final report.

So, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister to ensure that he does whatever he can to work with these communities to solve this problem.

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Dust Control In Small Communities

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Nahendeh , Mr. Menicoche .

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Privatization Of Fort Simpson Airport Maintenance Services

Members’ Statements

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My constituents throughout the Nahendeh riding have made it very clear to me through petitions, letters, phone calls and conversations that they do not support the proposed contracting-out of the operations of the Fort Simpson airport.

Today I want to go on record as being opposed to these proposed reductions. Contracting out services that were once provided by public service employees have longer-term impacts that go beyond this cost-cutting exercise.

There’s no guarantee that the Department of Transportation will realize any savings through contracting out the operations and maintenance of the airport. We have all seen escalating costs associated with contracts for road maintenance and construction projects.

Contractors face the same pressures as government in terms of their costs, plus they are in the business to make profit. That profit will likely be made up through higher business contracts and lower wages for employees. There’s also no guarantee that jobs with the private contractor will benefit the residents or the families of Fort Simpson.

The current operations and maintenance staff at the airport have been with the government for a long time and provide good quality service to ensure our airport is safe and secure. The community and the region have been well served by these government employees. Not only do they provide quality service, they and their families contribute to the economic and social fabric of our community.

The government has not provided my constituents or me with a good business case for contracting out these services. I urge the government to rethink these reductions and maintain airport services in the Nahendeh region. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Privatization Of Fort Simpson Airport Maintenance Services

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche . Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Ms. Bisaro .

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Comments From Constituents On Fiscal Reductions

Members’ Statements

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I’d like to share with all Members the comments in regard to the budget that I’ve been hearing from constituents. Not many are positive, unfortunately.

My constituents are asking for justification in public to explain the job reductions, to show why certain positions have been targeted. Most feel that the departments and/or managers did not do any analysis prior to determining which positions should go. Some decisions seemed to be based on a narrow view of personal opinion. Some used the eeny, meeny miny, moe method. Others took advantage of the opportunity presented by the reduction exercise to rid their department or

section of employees that they think — that they think, Mr. Speaker — are underperforming. All of these cases indicate no analysis, no forethought, no planning. I think we can coin a new term: the “instant decision.”

Some people applaud the government for taking action to be more efficient and to match expenses to revenue. They agree, for instance, that the Arctic Tern facility costs too much for too few inmates.

Many people question the numbers and comparisons in the budget. They find it hard to understand how we can be in such poor financial shape in such a short time. They see the government’s comparisons of the 2007–2008 budget figures to the 2008–2009 budget figures as comparing apples to oranges.

Sometimes the Main Estimates from ’07–08 are used; sometimes the Revised Main Estimates from ’07–08 are used. How can our residents get a true picture from that?

Several people have commented to me that if the financial picture is as bad as the Finance Minister says, why are we investing in new things? They

advise us to get our house in order first and then invest.

They ask about the estimated surplus for the last fiscal year. It’s now expected to be about $25 million more than budgeted. We will likely have a surplus of $69 million instead of $44 million. What plans are in place for the unexpected surplus? Last but not least, they cite a lack of consideration for the environment in this budget. It’s not only MLAs on this side of the House who are having difficulties swallowing this budget as presented. Many of the NWT residents are frustrated as well. They don’t see evidence of comprehensive planning in the budget and they don’t feel that there was adequate consultation. I can only agree.

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Comments From Constituents On Fiscal Reductions

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro . Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe , Mr. Beaulieu .

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Industrial Arts, Home Economics And Physical Education Teachers

Members’ Statements

Tom Beaulieu

Tu Nedhe

During my last constituency visit to Fort Resolution and Lutselk’e many residents were concerned about the lack of industrial arts, home economics and physical education teachers in their school. Aspiring trade students may not pursue journeyman status without getting some experience in those trades. These days with the robust diamond and mining industry, the importance of exposing junior and senior high school students to trades cannot be overemphasized — particularly increasing their employment opportunities, as I mentioned a couple of days ago.

With more and more studies coming out about health impacts of the increased inactivity of today’s younger generation, due to the advent of computer and computer-related entertainment, it is more important than ever to have schools provide a quality physical education program. With many young mothers in our communities, every school, particularly in these smaller communities, should be able to have basic resources to provide quality home economics classes and education.

We talk about healthy, vibrant communities, community wellness, healthy choices and healthy lifestyles. Yet in my communities, the youth are unable to get a good start because they cannot participate in a structured physical education program or they are not able to learn about safe work practices, budgeting for food or learning the basics of cooking. Many of their student counterparts in larger communities can. We need to ensure that we can provide these basic yet

important opportunities for our children and youth in all schools and in all communities.

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Industrial Arts, Home Economics And Physical Education Teachers

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu . Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Kam Lake , Mr. Ramsay .

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Hr Process To Identify Potentially Affected Employees

Members’ Statements

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I’d like to make a statement regarding the budget process and affected employees. I still am not clear on where Cabinet got the direction or the brainwave to send out notification letters to employees without first properly consulting Regular Members. We’ve talked of this before: it took them three weeks — and I’d like to know what happened in that three-week period — where Regular Members were left out there answering phone calls from constituents without any knowledge of the notification letters and where they were going.

This was also months before the actual budget and reductions were even to be discussed and voted on. Sure, it’s nice to let people know that they could be affected, but is it not a classic case of putting the cart before the horse?

I’m to understand that the government is already in the process of moving affected employees around. Some have resigned. Some have left the North. Is it just me, or is it not very presumptuous of the government to be operating and making decisions as if the budget has already been approved? I hope the government was paying attention when six Regular Members stood up and voted no to the budget at second reading. Others, as they have indicated, have serious concerns with the document. You will continue to hear these concerns as we move forward with the debate during Committee of the Whole.

It is unfair to our employees, it’s unfair to the Members of this Assembly, and it’s unfair to the public when government presents a budget that is so obviously flawed. Parents are always telling their children to do their homework and make sure their homework is done. If I was grading the government on whether or not they’ve done their homework on this budget, they would get an F without question. If you’re moving people around, you should be fair to those that are affected. Are all of the affected employees being given fair access to positions? And shouldn’t employees inside a department have the opportunity to stay within that department?

In closing, I believe that this government is continually taking the Regular Members of this House for granted. Again, we’ve not been a part of the government’s plan, and this has got to change in order for this budget to get off life support.

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Hr Process To Identify Potentially Affected Employees

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay . Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre , Mr. Hawkins .

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Motor Vehicle Safety Restraints For Children

Members’ Statements

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. As I

always like to do on Friday, I like to make a special mention of the fact that it’s Red Friday so we can support our troops.

Motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death and injury to children of all ages. But those aged between four and nine years old are currently the most vulnerable. Canadian data shows that the death rate from car crashes has dropped in all other age groups, but not for the children between the ages of four and nine. Data also tells us that the majority of Canadian children aged four to nine are riding in seat belts, which puts them at risk for serious injury in car crashes.

Seat belts are designed to fit adult proportions. Children don’t generally reach the right size for seat belts until at least the age of nine. When a child is too small for a seat belt, it crosses the wrong places, such as their neck and their stomach. In the event of a crash, a child who is too small for a seat belt can suffer spinal injuries, internal injuries or what the doctors sometimes call seat belt syndrome.

The risk of serious injury and death can be significantly reduced by the use of a booster seat, a simple safety device that raises a child so the seatbelt fits correctly across the shoulders, chest and hip bone. Unfortunately, research shows that less than 30 per cent of Canadian parents who have children between the ages of four and nine use booster seats. Most parents think their children are too big or too old for those seats.

We need to work to address this gap in the protection of our children that are between the ages of four and nine by implementing a public education campaign to give parents good information on the importance of booster seats and on how to tell their children that they need this seat and that they’re not too big or too old to have one.

Secondly, we need to pass legislation that requires booster seats. Quebec, Ontario, Nova Scotia, P.E.I., Newfoundland and New Brunswick have all passed booster seat legislation. British Columbia will be implementing new booster seat legislation this summer. The Government of NWT should follow suit and make booster seats mandatory.

In closing, we protect our children with car seats when they’re infants, toddlers and pre-schoolers. I urge the Minister of Transportation to extend the same degree of protection to our children between

the ages of four and nine by implementing legislation that would cover them. Putting children first is something we should always do. Let’s not let this gap continue.

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Motor Vehicle Safety Restraints For Children

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins . Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Weledeh , Mr. Bromley .

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Yellowknife Association Of Concerned Citizens For Seniors

Members’ Statements

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to clearly state my support for the government’s decision to move forward with the construction of the Aven Cottage Territorial Dementia Centre.

I also want to acknowledge the excellent work of a group of volunteers who serve on the board of the Yellowknife Association of Concerned Citizens for Seniors, YACCS. They have given freely of their considerable experience, knowledge and time to bring this much-needed centre and other facilities to reality. Our government is providing $15 million in capital funding for the centre. Additional fundraising is being done to raise money for furniture and fixtures.

The YACCS will operate the Aven Cottage Territorial Dementia Centre, which will house 28 residents from all parts of the NWT and offer daytime recreational activities for five to eight people. Greg Debogorski, executive director of YACCS, says they want the centre to have as much of a home-like environment as possible. People across the North will be very pleased that our seniors with dementia will now be able to stay in the North with appropriate care and closer to family and friends.

Working with the community of Yellowknife, YACCS resolved cost and logistical barriers through an agreement for project management and construction. The efficiency and savings gained have allowed this project to move forward on an affordable basis. But — and there is often a but — I also want to draw Members’ attention to the forced-growth costs that YACCS has been experiencing in the operations of another seniors’ centre, the Aven Manor.

In the fiscal year ’07–08, YACCS submitted forced-growth costs of $38,000 to Health and Social Services to cover the rising costs of utilities, maintenance, taxes, food and insurance. They received zero dollars from the government. In this fiscal year, YACCS submitted for $83,000 to cover these forced costs in operating the Aven Manor. Again, this government has refused to fund these costs.

Other non-government organizations face identical situations — for example, the YWCA — while the government establishes multi-year flat-funding

despite the rapidly rising costs. Government’s commitment to building a new dementia centre is a good thing…. Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

Unanimous consent granted.

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Yellowknife Association Of Concerned Citizens For Seniors

Members’ Statements

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Mr. Speaker, government’s commitment to building a new dementia centre is a good thing, but our government must recognize that forced-growth costs accumulate for non-government organizations just as much as they do for government. We’ve seen very significant forced-growth figures for government operations in the budget before us today. Putting these same costs on the backs of non-government organizations is hardly fair.

If this government can wipe out over $11 million in over-expenditures for one institution in Yellowknife — albeit not lightly done — surely they can look after this modest dilemma. Once again, YACCS is a volunteer organization of highly skilled and committed people serving on behalf of all residents.

Mr. Speaker, a big “Yahoo!” to this government for the commitment to build a territorial dementia centre. Now, on the shameful lack of action on providing for forced-growth costs, let’s correct this situation. As Mr. Jacobson says: “Let’s get it done.” Mahsi.

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Yellowknife Association Of Concerned Citizens For Seniors

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bromley . Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Hay River South , Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Careless Littering With Cigarette Butts

Members’ Statements

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you. Mr.

Speaker,

today I’d like to talk about something that is a pet peeve of mine. I don’t know if anybody’s ever seen those pet peeve surveys, but this is a pet peeve of mine. I was reminded of it when Ms. Lee was giving her Member’s statement on cigarettes, on smoking.

Mr. Speaker, there’s only one thing that amazes me more than the fact that people smoke, and that is the number of smokers who throw their cigarette butts on the ground. Most people understand that littering is not a good thing. We teach our kids that they shouldn’t toss litter out the car window and they shouldn’t toss their litter on the ground. Occasionally it’s been interesting for me to sit outside of a store, like Canadian Tire here in Yellowknife, and watch smoker after smoker after smoker walk up to the door of Canadian Tire and flick their butts on the ground. I just sit there in amazement. I guess they don’t think anybody’s watching or paying attention.

Mr. Speaker, each year when our snow melts we see the incredible amount of debris and litter on the

ground. Some of it’s easy to pick up, but one thing that’s not very easy to pick up is those annoying cigarette butts. I think that society has finally got the message that second-hand smoke is not acceptable. I think that most building owners who offer accommodation and service to the public can appreciate not having to deal with all the maintenance associated with cigarette smoke. I don’t think that cigarette butts are very biodegradable — they’re litter. So if someone can tell me why a person who wouldn’t dream of tossing a candy wrapper on the ground wouldn’t hesitate for one minute to flick a cigarette butt on the ground, I’d be very curious to hear that answer.

Maybe someone should invent a butt receptacle that could fit inside a smoker’s pocket or on one side of the cigarette package and they can carry them around with them. If someone can tell me why I should be expected to facilitate or clean up someone else’s cigarette butt, I would gladly receive that explanation, Mr. Speaker. It is something that I surely do not understand.

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Careless Littering With Cigarette Butts

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen . Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Nunakput , Mr. Jacobson .

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Traditional Hunting Activities In Nunakput

Members’ Statements

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I’d like to talk about our traditional activities taking place right now back home in Nunakput. Each year geese return to provide a good source of food for many constituents in Nunakput. Not only food — the traditional activity means families being able to spend quality time together. This is important, because this allows elders the opportunity to pass on more traditional knowledge to the younger generation.

Mr. Speaker, with the high cost of food in all my Nunakput communities, geese hunting provides an important economic food source and is also very healthy. Traditional activities such as geese hunting play an important role for many families all across the North. Although we are in times of fiscal restraint, we cannot forget about the important traditional activities. We must do our part as a government to assist and support traditional, on-the-land and aboriginal language programs. All communities are shore communities, and geese-hunting means travel on both land and sea.

This time of the year also is the time for melting, and I’d like to take the opportunity to remind my constituents in Nunakput, while they are travelling on the land and returning home, to be safe.

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Traditional Hunting Activities In Nunakput

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Jacobson . Members’ statements. The honourable Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes , Mr. Robert McLeod .

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Dust Control On The Dempster Highway

Members’ Statements

Bob McLeod

Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was trying to decide on a topic to speak to today, and I didn’t have one until I got in here and I heard my colleague from Mackenzie Delta mention dust. Right away I thought of the Dempster Highway, so I thought that is a good topic to speak of today. It is Friday and a lot of people from Inuvik will be driving out on the highway. I believe the ferries are in, so there will be a lot of traffic on the highways. I think the Department of Transportation relies on dust control, but this time of year all of their dust control melts; it is called “snow.”

I had the opportunity last weekend — I was in Inuvik — to go for a picnic, and I couldn’t believe the amount of dust that was there. There was a bit of dust control, but I blinked and I missed it. Mr. Speaker, when the dust clears, you realize that you have passed where you were going. It is an awfully dangerous highway. I don’t know what it is going to take for the department to realize that they need to do something about that highway. Not only for the travelling public, and it being the 50th anniversary of Inuvik…. We are expecting quite a few visitors for the homecoming.

They are going to have to drive that highway, but we have to think about the safety and well-being of the people in the Beaufort-Delta who drive that highway all the time.

We hear some of the Members talk about your highways down here and how terrible they are. I have had the opportunity to drive them, and I tell you: you drive the Dempster Highway and you’ll never be complaining about these highways down here again. That’s all we are asking. We are not asking to chipseal from Inuvik to the border, even though that would be nice. I hope I am alive to see that day. I probably would have to live for a couple hundred of years to see that. We are not asking for pavement. All we are asking for is some dust control from Inuvik to the NWT border so that we have the opportunity to enjoy some of the same driving conditions you have down here.

We have the opportunity to actually finally see some of the beautiful country on the Dempster Highway — as I’ve said before, you don’t want to take your eyes off the road on that highway because you never know where you are going to end up. It has been proven before Mr. Speaker; unfortunately, we lost a few people to the driving conditions on that highway. I don’t think it was because of the driving. I think it was just the state of the highway itself. I’d like to see Transportation seriously look into it. If nothing is going to be done

about it, then changes might need to be made within the department.

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Dust Control On The Dempster Highway

Members’ Statements

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Item 4, recognition of visitors in the gallery. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta , Mr. Krutko .

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great

pleasure to recognize Mr. Robert Charlie. He is originally from Fort McPherson; he lives in Inuvik. He used to work for NorthwesTel for over 30 years. He has also been the chair of Gwich’in council since its inception in 1992. I’d also like to mention that Robert’s dad was one of the first aboriginal appointees to the Territorial Council in the Northwest Territories. It is those commitments that his dad has made to the Territories…where we are where we are today. Again, Robert is one of the candidates running for the presidency of the Gwich’in Tribal Council

and I wish Robert all the

best on the campaign trail. I know what it is like to campaign, but have at ’er!

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Kevin A. Menicoche

Nahendeh

I’d like to recognize Mrs. Candace Brown, who’s actually been watching the proceedings all week. She’s a constituent from Fort Simpson. Welcome, and hope you had fun this week.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Jackie Jacobson

Nunakput

Today I’d like to recognize my two Pages from my home community of Tuktoyaktuk, Ms. Caitlin Walker and Ms. Chelsea Raddi, for the good work they’ve done. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Bob McLeod

Yellowknife South

I’d like to recognize a constituent of mine from Inuvik, Val Robertson, who’s here with the UNW and has been watching our proceedings for the past week. Welcome.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Sahtu

Norman Yakeleya

Minister of Transportation

I, too, want to recognize Val Robinson, a former grade 12 student at Samuel Hearne Secondary School.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

I, too, would like to recognize a couple of Pages in this Assembly: Trina Weyallon from Behchoko and Edie Erasmus from Behchoko. You’re doing a great job. Mahsi.

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Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . Item 6, acknowledgements. Item 7, oral questions. Item 8, written questions. The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Ms. Bisaro .

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Question 15-16(2) Somba K’e Healing Lodge

Written Questions

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister Responsible for the Housing Corporation .

1) Why is the lodge not currently operational?

2) Can it be refurbished to be operational?

3) What costs are incurred annually by the GNWT

for the upkeep and operation of the building?

4) What are the total annual costs for this

building?

5) Since the closure of the facility in 2003 and up

to today’s date, what is the total dollar amount spent by the GNWT for this facility?

6) What are the future plans for this facility?

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Question 15-16(2) Somba K’e Healing Lodge

Written Questions

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro . Item 9, returns to written questions. Item 10, replies to the opening address. Item 11, replies to the budget address, day seven of seven. Item 12, petitions. Item 13, reports of standing and special committees. Item 14, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 15, tabling of documents. Item 16, notices of motion. The honourable Member for Frame Lake , Ms. Bisaro .

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Motion 10-16(2) Setting Of Sitting Hours By Speaker

Notices of Motion

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I give notice that on Monday, June 2, 2008, I will move the following motion.

I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Thebacha , that the Speaker be authorized to set such sitting days and hours as the Speaker, after consultation, deems fit to assist with the business before the House.

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Motion 10-16(2) Setting Of Sitting Hours By Speaker

Notices of Motion

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro . Notices of motion. The honourable Minister responsible for the Housing Corporation , Mr. Miltenberger .

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Motion 11-16(2) National Housing Strategy

Notices of Motion

Michael Miltenberger

Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on Monday, June 2, 2008, I will move the following motion.

Now therefore I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Nunakput , that the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories call on the

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Motion 11-16(2) National Housing Strategy

Notices of Motion

The Speaker

Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger . Item 17, notices of motion for first reading of bills. Item 18, motions. Item 19, first reading of bills. Item 20, second reading of bills. Item 21, consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters, with Bill 8 , Tabled Document 37-16(2), Committee Report 6-16(2), Committee Report 7-16(2), with Mr. Krutko in the chair.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

I’d like to call Committee of the Whole to order.

In consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters is Bill 8 , Committee Report 2-16(2), Committee Report 3-16(2), Committee Report 4-16(2), Committee Report 5-16(2), Committee Report 6-16(2), Committee Report 7-16(2), Tabled Document 37-16(2).

What is the wish of the committee? Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the wish of the committee today is to proceed with the Main Estimates for the Department of Justice.

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Does committee agree?

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Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Honourable Members

Agreed.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

At this time I’d like to ask the Minister if he’s bringing in any witnesses. Mr. Lafferty .

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Does the committee agree?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Honourable Members

Agreed.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Sergeant-at-Arms, would you escort the witnesses in?

If we can, maybe we can just take a short break until the witnesses get here. Thank you.

The Committee of the Whole took a short

recess.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

For the record, Mr. Minister, can you introduce your witnesses?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mahsi, Mr. Chair. I have Donald

Cooper, my deputy minister of Justice, and

also Kim Schofield, director of finance, to my immediate left.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Welcome, witnesses.

When we left off, we were on page 7-35, Community Justice and Corrections. Mr. Hawkins .

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. I seek unanimous consent to go back to page 7-29.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Does the committee agree that we go back to page 7-29?

Unanimous consent granted.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Mr. Chairman, yesterday a motion was put on the floor to delete ten additional court services positions. I’m just trying to do some follow-up as to understanding the impact of that motion.

I’ve been led to believe that motion actually deleted some active positions that already exist, as opposed to some brand-new positions. I’m just trying to get some clarity on whether that is or is not the case. Furthermore, if it actually did, can I get the location of where those positions are?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

I do not believe that we can debate a motion that’s already been dealt with in this House. We’ve discussed the motion. It was voted on; it was passed. The motion has been dealt with, and I don’t think it’s appropriate to just go over an item that’s already been dealt with.

If you’re asking for a particular position in regard to this item on positions, I think we can ask for clarification from the department, but we’re not going back to something that’s already been dealt with.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Mr. Chairman, there’s no intention to re-debate the motion. I’m just trying to get a sense of what the impact was.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Mr. Hawkins , could you clarify your point and stick to the topic, which is Courts, Operations Expenditure

Summary, in regard to that particular page and not in regard to the motion that was dealt with. Mr. Hawkins .

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Mr. Chairman, I’m trying to get an understanding as to the overall impact, not to revisit the motion. I’m just trying to get clarity as to what impact that will have. As I understand it, that impact, now that the decision has been made….

Again, I’m not trying to revisit it, but I’m just trying to get a sense of whether there were active positions rolled up in that, and if there were, how many. Again, if there were, where were they located? That’s all. It’s for clarification.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Sorry, Mr. Hawkins . I’ll have to rule your item out of order. It’s already been discussed. We debated it, and basically we’re not going back to an item that’s been debated and voted upon. So I’ll have to rule your question out of order.

We’re on page 7-35, Community Justice and Corrections, Operations Expenditure

Summary: $33.826 million. Mr. Bromley .

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My questions are about the elimination of the Sex Offender Relapse Prevention Program and the Family Violence Prevention Program at the North Slave Correctional Centre, programs delivered to men who have been convicted of these offences.

I think it’s common knowledge to most of us that the incidence of sex offences in the Northwest Territories is extremely high, second only to Nunavut. Our rate is averaging well over five times the rate in Canada. In fact, we had 156 offences in 2006, which on a rate per 1,000 people is extremely, extremely high.

This program is a vital component to safer communities, which is supposed to be one of this government’s priorities. The decision was made, really, without any research or consultation on behalf of those that deliver the programs or their supervisors. Now, that sounds fairly astounding to me.

I understand that there is an independent review of the Justice program that’s going on. What if that report comes back and says, “Yeah, this program is essential”? I realize we need to make some cuts, but again, what is this department and what is this Minister going to do if the report of this review comes back and says this is essential programming? I’m already asking the question, given our priorities of prevention and so on: how can this be done?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Minister of Justice , Mr. Lafferty .

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mahsi, Mr. Chair. There’s been some talk about the cutting of the program, the cutting of positions. Just to set the record straight: we’re not cutting programs at the correctional centre. The review the Member’s referring to is an overall review of the programs that’s been undertaken. There are no changes to the programs that we’re delivering today. Mahsi.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Mr. Chair, I’m assuming that means the remaining staff will shoulder the workload of the two staff that are being cut, the two staff that currently deliver these sex offender programs. I highly suspect that other staff that already — I would assume — have lots of other responsibilities won't be able to efficiently deliver these programs — efficiently and effectively. Again, it’s clear that the people of the Northwest Territories — and, certainly, people on this side of the House — believe that more programming is needed rather than less.

I’d like to know how the department has concluded that existing staff can shoulder the responsibilities of the two affected employees who currently deliver this program. What’s the basis of that assumption?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Chair, within Corrections we are moving into a new, more integrated program delivery model that we’ve initiated, and that is our proposed plan through this Assembly, and with staff at many different levels actively involved. Instead of having only three people delivering the program, many of the employees will deliver them.

We talked about the deletion of positions, but at the same time, there are two vacant positions, and these potentially impacted individuals have the opportunity to take on that role. So that’s an area that we are looking at.

Also, we have a program delivery officer as well who will take on that role. So we do have current positions that can certainly continue to deliver this program delivery at the centre. Mahsi.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Mr.

Chair, I’m afraid I’m not

comfortable putting a lot of weight to the Minister’s remarks. I’m aware that there is a request for proposal out currently by the department, closing on the 20th of June, for the delivery of healing and

learning programs in Corrections. This is clear evidence that there is a recognition, at some level, for the need for more effective programming, and healing programming specifically, which is what we’re talking about here. Can the Minister explain this incongruity to me?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Chair, the Member is referring to an RFP that went out. It reflects on the North Slave Young Offenders Facility, not the North Slave Correctional Centre. Mahsi.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Thank you to the Minister for that clarification. How is it that we’re putting out contracts when we have affected employees in this very area of concern with expertise and that could easily assume these responsibilities and save the costs associated with contract administration, et cetera? Where is the staff retention policy on this? I know this is not a question for this Minister, but it is certainly a question for this government.

There are two tracks here, and they’re completely missing each other. Why did the Minister not put this together, connect these dots, and avoid the trauma of these two affected employees, when there are clear opportunities for them to be used, and used effectively, in the system with a job that’s clearly part of their expertise?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Chair, we’ll certainly utilize those impacted employees once they qualify as the case managers. We do have a program delivery officer as well.

The Member is referring to an RFP. The project is funded by the federal government and incorporates traditional aboriginal knowledge that he is referring to. It will enhance the programming already offered at the facility. It is a program funded by the federal government. Mahsi.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

Mr. Chair, just a question on that, then: are these yet again new federal dollars, but we’ve developed this budget assuming that there would be no new federal dollars? Are these dollars that were not expected?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Ms. Schofield.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Schofield

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The federal government funds a program called the IRCS Program, which is an intensive rehabilitation program. This pot of money is associated with a special projects fund, where proposals are submitted to the federal government to provide services for clients that meet the qualifications under the intensive rehabilitation program.

This program will provide additional training to staff at the young offenders facilities — similar to a train the trainer program — as well as do some initial program training with the young offenders at those facilities. It is a one-year project. It’s short-term, in the hopes that the staff at that facility, through the development of this program, will be able to carry out that work with young offenders.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Bob Bromley

Weledeh

When did we learn about these dollars? Did I hear that this was not a contract, that in fact they’re expecting staff we already have on board to do this work?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Schofield

Mr. Chair, the funding was identified in early April, so it was after the development of the Main Estimates document.

The services that are being asked for are for a contractor to develop the program and train the staff to deliver that program to the young offenders on an ongoing basis. It is only one-year funding to get the staff trained up in delivering that type of program to our young offenders.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I actually wanted to deal with a different topic on this particular page, and I have a motion to go with the issue that I wanted to discuss. So if there are other Members who still want to partake in a discussion on this matter, I’ll defer.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Mr. Abernethy .

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I want to follow up on my colleague Mr. Bromley ’s questions.

I hear what the Minister is saying: that you’re not cutting programs, that you’re cutting positions. But when it comes to the sex offender and the family violence programs, it’s my belief and my understanding that in order for those programs to be delivered, you basically need two people to do it: one male, one female. In cutting these positions, you’re not necessarily going to have those bodies around to deliver those programs, which means, basically, the programs won’t be delivered. I believe that goes against what you’re saying. In fact, if the programs can’t be delivered, we’re not working towards the rehabilitation of the inmates within the facility.

I’m going to try to ask a question that’s clear, that we can actually get an answer to, which would be good, a change, great. Can you tell me exactly how — by eliminating these positions and eliminating the two persons, the male and the female, who can deliver these sex offender and family violence programs — the department intends to ensure that these programs continue to be delivered as effectively as they have been? I’ll stop there. I won't want to muddy it any more.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Mr. Cooper.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Cooper

Mr. Chair, there were three positions. There’s been a competition. One of the incumbents was successful. There are two vacancies as case officers. The other two incumbents, to my knowledge, have applied for those jobs and are expected to get them as priority status employees.

These programs are delivered, I’m told, two to three times a year. They take six weeks each, so they’re not delivered constantly.

The case managers — the same people — will stop doing case management for six weeks, be backfilled by experienced corrections officers and deliver the program. That’s my understanding of how it will work: essentially, the same people delivering the program but under the name of case officer as opposed to a PDO.

I might add that this model is the one that is used in all of our smaller facilities for delivering programs. We were asked to find efficiencies within the system. We’ve tried to do that. We’re satisfied that the programs will not be adversely affected, and

actually, this particular reduction won’t result in any layoffs.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Mr. Abernethy .

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

Thanks, Mr.

Chair. A slightly

different topic but still in the same area: can you tell me exactly how many female young offenders are housed in Arctic Tern?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

The Minister of Justice .

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mahsi, Mr. Chair. To date we have two inmates at Arctic Tern.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

Can you tell me how many female young offenders are currently housed at the North Slave Young Offenders Facility?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Currently we have none at that corrections facility. Mahsi.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Glen Abernethy

Great Slave

Has the department housed female young offenders at the North Slave Young Offenders Facility in the recent past — one, two years?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Deputy Minister Cooper.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Cooper

Thank you, Mr. Chair. On a short-term basis that has been done when a female has been arrested here, prior to being taken to Inuvik. For short periods of time that has been done.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Next on the list I have Mr. Ramsay .

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don’t want to cover a lot of the ground. I agree with what my colleagues Mr. Bromley and Mr. Abernethy are saying.

I’ve been here for just over four years, and I’ve seen the North Slave Correctional Centre go into the new building. I’ve had many discussions with the former Minister about the new approach to corrections: how it was going to be holistic, more healing, and how they were going to do some good things there.

I share the concerns of my colleagues that the program delivery officers are being taken out of the sexual offender and family violence programming. That causes me some concern. I listened to the deputy minister’s rationale and how the programs will be delivered, but you just have to question whether the frequency, the reliability, will still be there if the programming gets left to case workers and the psychologists, or whoever is going to be delivering the program.

I think there is going to be an impact on the frequency and reliability of the delivery of those programs. I’m not sure why we would, in our largest correctional facility in the territory, want to go to a

model that’s followed by some of our smaller facilities.

Again, I know the department was up against the wall in terms of reductions. If you look at the reductions, they’re obviously not going to touch the security side of things in corrections. It would be almost impossible to look for reductions there, so programming is the obvious soft spot, I could say, and an area where they could look at reductions. I don’t agree with the reductions on the program delivery officers. I think it’s a step backwards.

I’d like to find out a little bit more about the program Ms. Schofield talked about — the federal funding — and where it looks like we’ve applied for federal funding for the YO facility. I’m wondering if we’ve applied for federal funding under that same program for the adult facility.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

The Minister of Justice , Mr. Lafferty .

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mahsi, Mr.

Chair. My

understanding is that the federal funding is only provided to the young offenders, not the adults.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Mr.

Chairman, I

guess the other

thing I wanted to talk about was the reduction in the nursing position at North Slave Correctional Centre. There is not going to be any coverage on the weekends, I’m to understand, because of this reduction.

I’m wondering if the department has done any work on trying to figure out what it’s going to cost. We’ve all been to the emergency room at Stanton. It can take six to eight hours to get in to see a doctor there. If that’s going to take a corrections guard out of that facility with an inmate to go to the hospital on the weekends to see a doctor, a nurse practitioner or whoever’s there, that’s just not good enough use of his time. They should be staying in the facility and not having to transport inmates over to the hospital on the weekends.

I’m wondering if the Minister has any idea of the impact that would cause to the operations at the facility on the weekends if guards are going to have to take inmates over to the hospital on a regular basis.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Ms. Schofield.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Schofield

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The nursing position that’s been eliminated has been vacant for some time now. It’s anticipated that with the reduction in the scheduling, they will be able to accommodate the workload and that there is no plan for any impact on the service provided to our inmates.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

Does that mean there will be full coverage at that facility over the weekend?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

There won’t be full coverage, but it’s not an everyday occurrence at Corrections. But certainly, that is one area that we did highlight as the Justice Department before we even went to cutting the vacant position. There wasn’t much weekend activity. Mahsi.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Ramsay

Kam Lake

My fear is that if there is no coverage on the weekends, inmates are going to want to go to the hospital. If they need to go to the hospital, they are going to go to the hospital, and when they go to the hospital, there is going to have to be a guard or two guards with them when they go. Vacant position or not, I think we need to have coverage at that facility on the weekends.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Certainly there are incidents at the Corrections. The avenue that, I guess, we’ll access will be at Stanton. But we will certainly continue to monitor that. Mahsi.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had a couple of questions also on the nursing support services for the North Slave Correctional Centre but also for the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre. There is a proposal to reduce funding for these functions by the amount of $109,000. I have heard now that for North Slave it will be the elimination of a vacant position at the North Slave Correctional Centre. What is proposed to be eliminated in terms of service or people in the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Deputy Minister Cooper.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Cooper

There is one maintenance position, and it is the only position in that facility, so there is only one affected employee. It has been recommended to senior management that this could be done. The DPW looks after the more sophisticated and complicated repairs and maintenance that need to be done. The COs and the inmates can look after the more minor maintenance matters. We understand that there will be two retirements this summer, and the affected employee is almost certain to get one of those positions as a corrections officer.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

To my question, I am not clear. Is there any proposed change to the support at South Mackenzie Correctional Centre for nursing support?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Minister of Justice .

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Chair, to answer the question for the Member, no, that is not part of the plan. Mahsi.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Can the Minister please tell me: what is the anticipated savings from the

elimination of the vacant position at the North Slave Correctional Centre?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

The proposed savings by eliminating the position would be $87,000. Mahsi.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

So the savings of eliminating a vacant position for a nurse at the North Slave Correctional Centre…. Will there still be a nurse at the North Slave Correctional Centre working Monday to Friday?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Yes, that is correct. There will be a position there.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Why was the position vacant? How long has it been vacant, and why was it vacant?

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

We don’t have that detailed information at this time, but we can certainly provide that to the Members. Mahsi.

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Main Estimates 2008–2009 Department Of Justice

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty . Mrs. Groenewegen .

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

I have a motion I’d like to move. We don’t have that information. It would be helpful to have that information in our deliberations here to help us make decisions. Since we don’t have that information, I’m going to make a motion.

I move that this committee strongly recommends that the government take immediate action to reinstate funding in the amount of…. We’re going to have to amend the motion here. Can I just get some clarification? Let me read the motion, and then I’ll find out if that needs to be changed.

I move that this committee strongly recommends that the government take immediate action to reinstate funding in the amount of $109,000 for the proposed elimination of nursing positions at the South Mackenzie and North Slave correctional centres under the Department of Justice, under Community Justice and Corrections.

Mr. Chairman, that’s my motion, and I’m now hearing from the Minister that there is no anticipated change at the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre and, in fact, the only position being eliminated is the one position at the North Slave Correctional Centre, for a savings of $87,000. Do we need to amend the motion, or what?

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Excuse me. We do have a motion that’s been put on the floor. We have a motion. It’s been read out. We’ll circulate the

motion, and then we’ll deal with the motion. We’re circulating the motion.

To the motion, Ms. Bisaro .

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Wendy Bisaro

Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a question which might clarify the difficulty we’re having with the dollar amount. When the department numbers were discussed at the Social Programs Committee, we were given information that indicated that a nurse position at SMCC for a value of $22,000 was going to be reduced. If, as the Minister has advised, that position is not being reduced, could the department advise what that $22,000 reduction is related to? That might help us out here.

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Again, we’re dealing with the motion. At this time we can only discuss the motion. You can’t ask questions to the Minister. I’d like to ask the mover of the motion, Mrs. Groenewegen , to the motion.

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To the motion, which is to recommend that the government reinstate the $109,000 for any proposed reductions to nursing services at the North Slave Correctional Centre and the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre, I would like to say that I believe these are important services, and they are there to ensure that the corrections officers are not having to extend their time dealing with health issues. I think that the funding for them should be reinstated.

Our motion is premised on information that we received from the Department of Justice. If that information has changed, so be it, but this is the information we have before us. This is the information that we’re going to vote on.

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

To the motion.

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

An Honourable Member

Question.

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

The question has been called.

Motion carried.

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

David Krutko

Maybe at this time we’ll take a short break.

The Committee of the Whole took a short

recess.

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Glen Abernethy

We have a quorum, so we’ll reconvene. We’re on page 7-35, Department of Justice, Activity

Summary, Community Justice and Corrections, operations and expenditures. Do we have any questions? Mr. Krutko .

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

There was a program that was in place with the Tl'oondih Healing Society in Fort

McPherson, where we were looking at developing a program which was implemented for, I believe, three clients who went through three different times with the program. The whole intention of the program was to reintegrate inmates back into their communities and to allow them to deal with some of their issues so that they don’t re-offend. But it also tried to make them aware, to be able to cope with society but, more importantly, to deal with their issues before they’re released from prison.

In regard to that program, there was supposed to be a report done on that in regard to the program itself. It was a pilot project. I know we worked with the Department of Justice and the Tl'oondih Healing Society. A lot of work and effort has gone into that. We still have wilderness camps, but I think this was one step up on that. I’d like to ask the Minister: exactly what’s the status of that program, and is that something that the department will continue to look at?

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

Glen Abernethy

Thank you, Mr. Krutko . Minister Lafferty .

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mahsi, Mr.

Chairman.

Certainly reintegrating clients or inmates back to the community is an important step to our process. I will look further into what the Member is alluding to. That will be our commitment from Justice. We’ll certainly look into that.

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

In regard to this government and the situation we find ourselves in, I think we have to start looking more in line with NGOs and non-government organization institutions that have the infrastructure and the ability to work with clients. I think one area this government could probably save a lot of money in is with travel, transportation, court costs and whatnot, and sending inmates to institutions. We all know the estimated cost to house someone in a correctional facility is up to $85,000 a year.

As a government we have to look at how best to serve inmates, for one thing. The other thing is to integrate them back into our communities with some sort of a program that they have to take. We have to ensure that once they get through the justice system, there is some way of dealing with the core reason that these individuals seem to be in this cycle of continuously going through the justice system.

Regardless of what the issues are — alcohol, drugs or crime in general — these areas are bothering them, and I hate to blame anyone for any particular problem. A lot of this stuff originates from residential schools and values that originate in the home. I think you can go back to a lot of these individuals and you can track their family tree and realize that this is not unique just to them.

I’d like to ask the Minister: is the department looking at trying to integrate justice programs out of large centres, where we’re worried about overcrowding and costs associated with running these larger facilities, and re-profiling some of those costs to programs such as the Tl’oondih Healing Society, and working with non-government organizations to provide the services we aren’t able to develop in-house and use the services of other organizations?

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Jackson Lafferty

Monfwi

Mr. Chairman, with our department they have done some work in this area. Like I said earlier, one of the important steps was reintegrating inmates into communities, and it is one of our important milestones. We have initiated pilot projects in the communities, such as the Sahtu exploration area, where inmates were taken out on the land for various weeks. We’ve done that a couple of years now. We are looking at other communities as well to do a pilot project there. What the Member is referring to is the NGOs in the community and that possibly programs could be delivered at the community level.

There is one area that we are also exploring: how we can improve our programming in the communities. It all depends on those organizations that deliver the programs, if they have the capacity and so forth. Certainly we’ll continue to work with those communities that are interested in delivering those programs. We will continue to improve our program delivery to the communities.

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Committee Motion 16-16(2) To Reinstate Funding In The Amount Of $109,000 For Nursing Positions At Ycc And Smcc (Committee Motion Carried)

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

David Krutko

Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chairman, this is my last question for the Minister. I’d like to ask the Minister: is there a possibility that I can get a copy of the evaluation of the program that was run at the Tl’oondih camp in Fort McPherson. There were, I believe, three programs. There was an evaluation and assessment of that program, but I’ve never seen a copy. The Tl’oondih Healing Society has asked me to get a copy, because they want to know what worked, what didn’t work and what went wrong, so that they can improve the program but also see how they can directly enhance it.

I’d like to ask the Minister if it’s possible that I can receive any documentation on that program in light of the pros and cons of what hap